Military Review

How the Romanovs went to the "obscene" truce with Poland

82
400 years ago, 11 December 1618, in the town of Deulino near the Trinity Monastery of St. Sergius, an armistice was signed, which for 14 years suspended the war with Poland. The world was bought at a high price - the Poles were inferior to Smolensk, Chernihiv and Novgorod-Seversky and other Russian cities. In fact, it was the end of the Troubles in the Russian state.


War with poland

Poland has interfered in the affairs of the Russian state since the beginning of the Troubles. Poland and the Vatican supported the impostor - False Dmitry, who promised the Poles vast lands and the union of Orthodoxy with Catholicism (in fact, the subordination of the Russian Church to Rome). Detachments of Polish magnates and adventurers actively participated in the Russian Troubles, plundering and smashing cities and villages.

Open Polish intervention began in 1609 year. Polish troops, taking advantage of the collapse of the Russian statehood, were able to occupy vast Russian lands, after a long and heroic defense they took the strategic fortress of Smolensk (1609 - 1611). After the catastrophic defeat of the Russian-Swedish army in the battle near the village of Klushino (June 1610), Moscow was left without an army, and the boyars overthrew Tsar Vasily Shuisky. The boyar government (Semiboyarshchina) in August 1610 of the year signed a treacherous agreement, by which the Polish throne invited the Polish king Vladislav. The Polish garrison was introduced to Moscow. Traitors-boyars on behalf of the new king minted a coin. However, Vladislav's wedding to the kingdom did not happen. Polish prince was not going to go to the Orthodox faith.

Only 1612, the Second Zemstvo militia led by Minin and Pozharsky was able to liberate Moscow from the invaders. The public mind is dominated by the myth, which was formed by the historians of the Romanovs' house, that the surrender of the Poles in the Kremlin was a turning point in the Troubles or even its end. And the accession of Mikhail Romanov finally completed the period of the Troubles in the Russian state. Although in reality, in 1613, the war only flared up with a new force. The new Moscow government had to fight at the same time with the Polish army in the west, the Cossacks Ivan Zarutsky in the south (the ataman planned to impose the son of Marina Mnishek on the Russian throne) and the Swedes in the north. In addition, the war with a gang of thieves Cossacks and Polish troops was fought throughout the state, there was no clear front in this war. Cossack detachments repeatedly approached Moscow, smashed their camps near the capital. With great difficulty, the royal governors managed to defend Moscow and drive off the “thieves”.

Only in 1614, the dangerous uprising of Zarutsky, which threatened the Cossack-Peasant War with a new wave, was suppressed, and he was seized and taken to the capital: , and Marina die in Moscow. " In fact, the Romanovs hid the ends in the water, eliminating witnesses of the Troubles organization. And the murder of 4-year-old (!) “Tsarevich” Ivan will be a terrible sin on the house of the Romanovs. The war with Sweden was unsuccessful and ended with the signing of the 27 in February 1617 of the Stolbovo Peace Treaty. Moscow returned Novgorod, Ladoga and some other cities, lands, but lost the fortresses of Ivangorod, Yam, Oreshek, Koporye, Korela and access to the Baltic (they returned only under Peter the First).

Since the liberation of Moscow and before the Deulinsky truce, war with the Poles did not turn. In 1613, the Russian troops lifted the siege of the enemy from Kaluga, liberated Vyazma and Dorogobuzh, which voluntarily surrendered to them. Then they besieged the White fortress, and in August they forced the Poles to surrender. After this, the royal governors began the blockade of Smolensk, but due to low combat capability, lack of strength, ammunition, provisions and opposition from the enemy, it was dragged out. In November 1614, the Polish pans sent a letter to the Moscow government in which they reproached Vladislav with treason and mistreated noble Polish prisoners. But despite this, the Poles offered to begin peace negotiations. The Moscow boyars agreed and sent Zhelyabuzhsky as ambassador to Poland. These negotiations yielded nothing, resulting in a stream of mutual insults and accusations. The Poles did not want to hear anything about Tsar Mikhail Romanov. According to them, Michael was only the stolnik of Tsar Vladislav.



Lisovsky's hike

Alexander Lisovsky (formerly one of the commanders of the False Dmitry II, then transferred to the service of the Polish king) in 1615, made another raid on Polish cavalry across Russia with the aim of diverting Russian troops from Smolensk. His squad (lisovchiki), described a large loop around Moscow and returned to Poland. Lisovsky was a bold and skillful commander, his unit consisted of selective cavalry. Its number ranged from 600 to 3 thousand people. Among the lisovchikov were Poles, representatives of the West Russian population, German mercenaries and thieves Cossacks. In the spring, Lisovsky besieged Bryansk, in the summer — Karachev and Bryansk captured. He smashed the Moscow army under Prince Yuri Shakhovsky under Karachev.

After that, the government of Martha (Mikhail Romanov himself was a dummy, so his mother, nun Martha, and Father Fyodor Romanov, Patriarch Filaret, first released by the Poles) ruled for him first) decided to send Dmitry Pozharsky against the foxes. The prince was an experienced and skillful commander, but he was sick from previous wounds, that is, he could not fully pursue the enemy mobile army. In fact, the Romanov government was interested in disgracing Pozharsky, who had recently been a possible candidate for the Russian throne. 29 June 1615 of the year Pozharsky, with a squad of noblemen, archers and a few foreign mercenaries (about 1 in total, thou fighters), went on to catch foxes. Lisowski at that time was sitting in the city of Karachev. Learning about the rapid movement of Pozharsky through Belev and Bolkhov, Lisovsky burned Karachev and retreated to Orel. The scouts reported about this commander, and he moved to intercept the enemy. By way of Pozharsky, a Cossack detachment joined, and in Bolkhov, Tatar cavalry. Detachment Pozharsky doubled forces.

On August 23, in the area of ​​Orel, the head detachment of Pozharsky under the command of Ivan Pushkin suddenly collided with an opponent. Pushkin's detachment could not stand the oncoming battle and retreated. Another Russian detachment under the leadership of the voivode Stepan Islenev also departed. On the battlefield, only Pozharsky himself remained with the 600 fighters. His warriors repelled the attacks of the 3-thousand of the Lisovsk detachment, hiding behind a fortification of concatenated carts. Pozharsky said to his soldiers: "We all die in this place." However, Lisovsky, not knowing about the small number of Pozharsky soldiers, did not dare to go on a decisive assault on the field fortification. Lisowski retreated and burned the Eagle.

Meanwhile, the fleeing troops returned to Pozharsky and he resumed the persecution of Lisovsky. The Poles fled to Bolkhov, but here they were reflected by voivode Fyodor Volynsky. Then the lisovchiki approached Belev, and 11 of September burned him. On the same day Likhvin attacked, but the local garrison repulsed the attack. September 12 Lisovsky took Przemysl, whose governor left the city and fled to Kaluga. Here lisovchikov regained their strength, in the process ruining the surrounding villages. Pozharsky stopped in Likhvin and here he received reinforcements from several hundred warriors from Kazan. After a short rest, the prince resumed the persecution of Lisovsky. He was still retreating. The Poles burned Przemysl and marched north between Vyazma and Mozhaisk.

Pozharsky, after several days of persecution, became seriously ill and handed over command to other commanders. He himself was taken to Kaluga. Without Pozharsky army quickly lost its combat capability. A detachment of Kazan went home without permission. Voivode with the remaining forces were afraid to go to the enemy. And Lisovsky freely went to Rzhev, who defended the voivode Fedor Sheremetev with difficulty, who himself went to the aid of Pskov. Having left from Rzhev, the Poles burned Torzhok, tried to take Kashin and Uglich, but even there the governors coped with their duties. After that, the lisovchiki did not try to attack the cities anymore, but walked between them, devastating everything in their path. Lisovsky went between Yaroslavl and Kostroma to Suzdal district, then between Vladimir and Murom, between Kolomna and Pereyaslavl-Ryazan, between Tula and Serpukhov to Alexin. Several governors were sent in pursuit of the enemy, but they only fruitlessly circled between the cities, not finding Lisovsky. Only in December, the tsarist ratification of Prince Kurakin managed to impose battle on the enemy near the city of Aleksin. But he retreated without significant losses. In early January, 1616, the foxes tried again and unsuccessfully to take Likhvin, and then went to Smolensk, to their own.

Thus, Lisovskiy managed to quite calmly leave for the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth after an amazing raid around Moscow that was long remembered in the Russian state. This campaign showed the precariousness of the situation in Russia of that time. Lisowski in Poland became a symbol of elusiveness and invincibility. True, this lightning raid had a negative impact on the health of Lisovsky himself. In the autumn of 1616, he again assembled a detachment to pogrom Russian cities and villages, but suddenly fell from his horse and died. Lisovchikov was led by Stanislav Chaplinsky - another field commander in the former army of the Tushino thief (False Dmitry II). In 1617, Chaplinsky seized the cities of Meshchovsk, Kozelsk and approached Kaluga, where he was defeated by Pozharsky's army.

How the Romanovs went to the "obscene" truce with Poland

Lisovchiki - participants in the raid Lisovsky. Painting by Polish artist J. Kossak

Moscow campaign of Vladislav

In the summer of 1616, Russia and Poland traded blows. The Russian commanders raided Lithuania, defeating the surroundings of Surezh, Velizh and Vitebsk. In turn, a detachment of Lithuanians and Cossacks acted from Karachev and Krom. Our governors chased after them, but without much success. Most Lithuanians went abroad.

Inspired by Lisovsky's raid, the Poles decided to organize a big march on Moscow led by Prince Vladislav. However, the army was not entrusted to one prince, the army was headed by the great Lithuanian hetman Jan Chodkiewicz, who had already led troops to Moscow in 1611 - 1612. In addition, the Seym sent eight special commissioners with the King - A. Lipsky, S. Zhuravinsky, K. Plichta, L. Sapega, P. Opalinsky, B. Stravinsky, J. Sobesky and A. Mentsinsky. They had to ensure that the prince did not oppose the conclusion of peace with Moscow. After the seizure of the Russian capital, the commissioners had to make sure that Vladislav did not back down from the conditions worked out by the Sejm. The main conditions were: 1) connection of Russia and Poland into an inseparable union; 2) the establishment of free trade; 3) the transfer of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - the Smolensk principality, from the Seversk land - Bryansk, Starodub, Chernigov, Pochep, Novgorod-Seversky, Putivl, Rylsk and Kursk, as well as Nevel, Sebezh and Velizh; 4) Moscow’s rejection of rights to Livonia and Estland. It is clear that the strife and intrigue in the Polish command did not add to the army's combat capability.


Portrait of Vladislav Vaz brush workshop Rubens, 1624

The second half of 1616 and the beginning of 1617 were held in preparation for the march. There was no money, so with great difficulty 11 -12 thousand soldiers scored. Basically it was the cavalry. In Lithuania, they even introduced a special tax to pay mercenaries. The Polish army consisted of two parts: the crown army under the command of Vladislav and the Lithuanian troops of Hetman Chodkiewicz. At the same time, a significant part of the crown army had to be sent to the southern borders because of the threat of war with the Turks. Meanwhile, in the western and southwestern parts of Russia, the gangs of thieves Cossacks, among whom there were almost no real Don and Zaporizhzhya Cossacks, continued to rage. Many of them were delighted with the campaign and the new opportunity to "walk" in Russia. They joined the royal army.

In May, the advanced Polish troops, under the command of Gonsevsky and Chaplinsky, unblocked Smolensk. The Russian siege army headed by Mikhail Buturlin left the fortifications near Smolensk and retreated to Belaya. Vladislav stepped out of Warsaw in April 1617 of the year, but he walked around Volyn to frighten Turkey. In the summer, a significant part of the army had to be sent to the southern border to the army of the great hetman of the crown Zolkiewski because of the threat of war with Porta. Therefore, the prince returned to Warsaw for a while. Only in September, Vladislav arrived in Smolensk, and Khodkevich’s troops approached Dorogobuzh. In early October, voivod Dorogobuzh I. Adadurov went over to the side of the Poles and kissed the cross to Vladislav as the Russian Tsar. This caused a panic in Vyazma, local governors with a part of the garrison fled to Moscow and the fortress was surrendered to the enemy without a fight. Obviously, this caused great enthusiasm in the Polish ranks. The Polish command, hoping to repeat the success of the False Dmitry in 1617, when it occupied Moscow without a fight, sent several governors led by Adadurov to the Russian capital in order to "seduce" the Moscow people. But they were arrested and sent into exile.

The advanced Polish detachments reached Mozhaysk and tried to take the city with a sudden blow. Mozhaisk governors F. Buturlin and D. Leontiev closed the gate and decided to stand to the death. From Moscow, reinforcements were immediately sent to their aid under the command of B. Lykov and G. Valuev. On the way of the enemy, the Moscow government put up three ratifications led by D. Pozharsky, D. Cherkassky and B. Lykov. Some advisers of Vladislav proposed to attack on the move the poorly fortified Mozhaisk and the weak Russian army stationed there. However, the time for the campaign was lost. Mercenaries and Polish gentry demanded money. The treasury was empty. Winter came, food was scarce. The Cossacks, not seeing the loot and money, began to desert. As a result, the Polish army stopped in the Vyazma area to “winter apartments”.

Having received the news about the "seat" of Vladislav in Vyazma, the Seym sent a letter to the commissars with a proposal to start peace negotiations with Moscow. At the end of December 1617, the royal secretary Jan Gridic was sent to Moscow with a proposal to conclude a truce before 20 on April 1618, exchange prisoners and begin peace talks. Moscow boyars refused him. The Sejm decided to continue the fighting. Vladislav was returned to the units that had previously been sent to the southern border and transferred new forces at the head of Kazanovsky. As a result, the number of the Polish army was brought to 18 thousand people. In addition, the Poles were inclined to speak out against the Zaporozhian Cossacks led by Hetman Peter Sagaidachny.

In early June 1618, the Polish army launched an offensive from Vyazma. Getman Khodkevich offered to go to Kaluga in the lands less devastated by the war so that the troops could find provisions. But the commissioners insisted on a campaign against Moscow. But on the way of the enemy was Mozhaisk, where he stood with the army of voivode Lykov. Fighting for the city began in late June. The Poles stood under the city, but could not lead a full siege. To take this relatively weak fortress by storm the Poles could not because of the lack of siege artillery and lack of infantry. And they were afraid to leave the Russian fortress in the rear. Fierce fighting near Mozhaisk lasted more than a month. Then the main forces of the Russian army under the command of Lykov and Cherkassky, due to food shortages, went to Borovsk. At the same time, the garrison of Fyodor Volynsky was left in Mozhaisk. He beat off the attacks of the enemy for a month. September 16, without taking Mozhaysk, Vladislav spoke on Moscow. At the same time, part of the Polish-Lithuanian army, without receiving a salary, returned home or fled to plunder Russian lands.

As a result, Vladislav and Khodkevich were brought to Moscow by about 8 thousand soldiers. September 22 (October 2) Polish-Lithuanian army approached Moscow, located on the site of the former Tushino camp. Meanwhile, the Sagaydachny Cossacks broke through the weakened south-western borders of the Russian state. The main forces of Moscow were connected by battles with the Polish army, so they could not stop the Cossacks. The Cossacks took and looted Livny, Yelets, Lebedyan, Ryazhsk, Skopin, Shatsk. The main part of the Cossacks crumbled for robbery, several thousand people brought Sagaidachny to Moscow. Cossacks are located at the Donskoy Monastery. The garrison of Moscow numbered about 11 -12 thousand people, but mostly it was the city militia and the Cossacks. The main line of defense was for the fortifications of the White City.

Chodkiewicz did not have artillery, infantry and supplies for the correct siege. He did not even have the strength for a full blockade, reinforcements could penetrate the city. Tightening the operation led to the strengthening of the garrison, there was a threat of the appearance of strong Russian troops in the rear. The troops were unreliable, standing in place led them to rapid decomposition. Therefore, the hetman decided to take the city almost immediately. Only a cheeky attack could lead to success. On the night of October 1 (11) 1618, the Poles launched an assault. Zaporizhzhya Cossacks had to undertake a distracting attack in Zamoskvorechye. The main blow was delivered from the west to the Arbat and Tver gates. The infantry was to crack the fortifications, take the gate and clear the way for the cavalry. The successful breakthrough of the Poles led to the blockade of the Kremlin or even to seize it with the Russian government.

The assault failed. Cossacks were passive. The defectors warned the Russians about the main threat and reported the time of the attack. As a result, the Poles ran into stubborn resistance. The storming of the Tver gates drowned out immediately. Cavalier of the Order of Malta Novodvorsky made a breach in the wall of the Earthen city and reached the Arbat gate. But the Russians made a sortie. Enemy attack repelled. Novodvorsky himself was wounded. In the evening, the Poles were knocked out of the fortifications of the Earthen City. Forces for the new assault from the Poles was not. But the Moscow government did not have the resources to go into a decisive counter-offensive and throw the enemy away from the capital, to drive the Poles out of the country. Negotiations began.


"In the siege seat." Trinity Bridge and Kutafya Tower. A. Vasnetsov

The truce

Negotiations began on 21 (31) on October 1618, on the Presnya River, near the walls of the Earthen City. The Poles were forced to forget about the accession of Vladislav in Moscow. It was about the cities that were supposed to depart Poland, and the timing of the truce. Both Russians and Poles rested. Therefore, the first negotiations did not give anything.

Winter came. Vladislav left Tushino and relocated to the Trinity-Sergius Monastery. Zaporozhtsy Sagaydachnogo went to the south, ravaged Posad of Serpukhov and Kaluga, but could not take the fortress. From Kaluga, Sagaidachny went to Kiev, where he declared himself hetman of Ukraine. Going to the Trinity Monastery, the Poles tried to take it, but were repulsed by artillery fire. Vladislav withdrew troops from the monastery on 12 miles and camped near the village of Rogachev. The Poles scattered across the region, robbing the surrounding villages.

In November 1618, negotiations on an armistice resumed in the village of Deulino belonging to the Trinity Monastery. From the Russian side, the embassy was headed by: boyars F. Sheremetev and D. Mezetskaya, okolnichy A. Izmailov and clerks Bolotnikov and Somov. Poland was represented by commissioners assigned to the army. Objectively, time worked for Moscow. The second wintering of the Polish army was even worse than the first: the troops did not winter in the city of Vyazma, but almost in an open field, the distance to the border of Poland increased significantly. Hired soldiers grumbled and threatened to leave the army. Moscow could at this time strengthen the defense, the army. Appeared the prospect of defeating the enemy. At the same time, the foreign policy situation was dangerous for Warsaw. Poland was threatened with war by the Ottoman Empire and Sweden. And in Moscow they knew about it. In addition, the Thirty Years War began in Western Europe in 1618, and the Polish king Sigismund immediately climbed into it. In conditions when prince Vladislav could get bogged down with an army in Russian forests.

However, subjective factors intervened in the affairs of the Russian embassy. Thus, the leadership of the Trinity Monastery of St. Sergius was little worried about the fate of the western and southwestern Russian cities, but was concerned about the prospect of overwhelming the enemy army in the area of ​​the monastery and, accordingly, ruining the monastic estates. And most importantly, the government of Mikhail Romanov and his mother wanted to free Philaret at any cost and return him to Moscow. That is, the Romanov government decided to make peace at a time when the Poles had no chance of taking Moscow and could lose the army from hunger and cold. In the face of the threat of war with Turkey and Sweden.

As a result of December 1 (11), a truce was signed in Deulino for a period of 1618 years and 14 months in Deulino. The Poles received the cities they had already captured: Smolensk, Roslavl, Bely, Dorogobuzh, Serpeysk, Trubchevsk, Novgorod-Seversky with districts on both sides of the Desna and Chernigov with the region. Moreover, Poland was given a number of cities that were under the control of the Russian army, among them were Starodub, Peremyshl, Pochep, Nevel, Sebezh, Krasny, Toropets, Velizh with their districts and counties. Moreover, the fortress passed with guns and ammunition, and the territory with residents and property. The right to go to the Russian state was received only by nobles with their own people, clergy and merchants. Peasants and townspeople remained in their places. Tsar Mikhail Romanov refused the title of "Prince of Livonian, Smolensk and Chernigov" and granted these titles to the Polish King.

The Poles promised to return the previously captured Russian ambassadors headed by Filaret. The Polish king Sigismund refused the title of "Tsar of Russia" ("Grand Duke of Russia"). At the same time, Vladislav retained the right to be called "the Tsar of Russia" in the official documents of the Commonwealth. The icon of St. Nicholas of Mozhaisk, captured by the Poles in 1611, was returned to Moscow.

Thus, Smoot in Russia ended with a very “obscene” world. The border between Poland and Russia moved far to the east, almost returning to the borders of the times of Ivan III. Russia has lost the most important strategic fortress in the western direction - Smolensk. The Commonwealth for a short time (before the Swedes captured Livonia) reached its maximum size. stories. Warsaw has retained the opportunity to claim the Russian throne. National interests were donated in favor of the interests of the house of the Romanovs. In general, the new war with Poland was further inevitable.


The agreement between Russia and Poland on the truce for 14 years concluded in the village Deulino. Original on parchment. Signed by six Polish ambassadors with their stamps attached.

Orange color shows on the map of the territory, passed to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth on the Deulinsky truce. Source: https://ru.wikipedia.org
Author:
82 comments
Ad

Subscribe to our Telegram channel, regularly additional information about the special operation in Ukraine, a large amount of information, videos, something that does not fall on the site: https://t.me/topwar_official

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Vasilenko Vladimir
    Vasilenko Vladimir 12 December 2018 05: 33
    +5
    through blood they gained power, and through their blood they lost
    1. Basil50
      Basil50 12 December 2018 07: 21
      +6
      Well now they are martyrs and stuff, stuff, stuff .....
      The Romanovs suited everyone who started and then fed on the turmoil. A little later, bribe-tellers and priests were hired that they began to tell and write all sorts of different fables in order to justify and choose and to glorify the newly elected king and his offspring. Today, some of them are presented as a document.
      It is disgusting that the troubles were conceived and then actively supported by the church. But today this is not only NOT recognized, but priests are also attributing the laurels of the winners of the Poles to themselves.
      1. Vend
        Vend 12 December 2018 09: 59
        +5
        This campaign showed the precarious situation of then-Russia.

        The country was ruined, a respite was needed. It was received. And the territory was later returned to the state. The Brest-Litovsk world also gave part of the territory of Russia to the Germans, but then everything returned.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 12 December 2018 10: 25
          -2
          g168
          Quote: Wend
          The Brest-Litovsk world also gave part of the territory of Russia to the Germans, but then everything returned.

          To whom and what has returned? request The current western border of Russia is practically coincides with the border of the Brest peace.

          But in 1618, yes, the resulting respite allowed later to return everything a hundredfold
          1. Vend
            Vend 12 December 2018 11: 09
            -2
            Quote: Olgovich
            g168
            Quote: Wend
            The Brest-Litovsk world also gave part of the territory of Russia to the Germans, but then everything returned.

            To whom and what has returned? request The current western border of Russia is practically coincides with the border of the Brest peace.

            But in 1618, yes, the resulting respite allowed later to return everything a hundredfold

            No need to distort, we are talking about the Soviet period, which ended in 90. The period of modern Russia is not over yet. The Crimea was returned, with time everything else will return.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 12 December 2018 13: 01
              +1
              Quote: Wend
              No need to juggle, we are talking about the Soviet period, which ended in 90-e. The period of modern Russia has not yet ended. The Crimea was returned, with time everything else will return.

              Now it’s clear: in 1918 –1954 –– the borders of Russia (RSFSR) –– within the framework of the 17 century –– they were specially made such that then ..... again begin to expand yes .. Tricky! Only three centuries of the titanic work of the people-dog, yes ...

              By the way, if someone in the West. Ukraine in Soviet times would have hinted that it was returned to Russia (meaning the USSR), then it would be very painful not to understand ....
              1. Vend
                Vend 12 December 2018 13: 28
                -3
                Quote: Olgovich
                Quote: Wend
                No need to juggle, we are talking about the Soviet period, which ended in 90-e. The period of modern Russia has not yet ended. The Crimea was returned, with time everything else will return.

                Now it’s clear: in 1918 –1954 –– the borders of Russia (RSFSR) –– within the framework of the 17 century –– they were specially made such that then ..... again begin to expand yes .. Tricky! Only three centuries of the titanic work of the people-dog, yes ...

                By the way, if someone in the West. Ukraine in Soviet times would have hinted that it was returned to Russia (meaning the USSR), then it would be very painful not to understand ....

                What can I do, there is a time when the state is powerful and able to defend itself, and there is when the internal enemy is so strong that even smart people lose their adequacy.
              2. Vasilenko Vladimir
                Vasilenko Vladimir 12 December 2018 19: 27
                0
                Quote: Olgovich
                Only three centuries of the titanic work of the people-dog, yes ...

                well, there’s no one to blame for the gentlemen of the Romanovs, they themselves all lowered into the toilet, worked hard at it
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 13 December 2018 07: 53
                  -2
                  Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                  well, there’s no one to blame for the gentlemen of the Romanovs, they themselves all lowered into the toilet, worked hard at it
                  Reply

                  The Romanovs CREATED (learn history) the largest country in the world. They lowered into the toilet the achievements of 300 years of their reign. who set the boundaries of today's Russia in 1917-1954. Remember also who cut off from Russia 5 million km2 of territory and tens of millions Russians in 1917-1954?
                  1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                    Vasilenko Vladimir 13 December 2018 08: 51
                    -1
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    The Romanovs CREATED (learn history) the largest country in the world.

                    for the sake of the empire, the foundation of the Empire was laid by Ivan the Terrible, as you say "learn history"
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Those who set the borders of today's Russia in 300-1917, let the achievements of 1954 years of their reign go down into the toilet.

                    once again "learn history" the collapse began not in October, but in February 1927, not without the participation of the Romanov family, but considering what they all did to make this February happen, and they worked tirelessly for almost all 300 years his reign, including Peter I and Catherine II
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Remember, who cut off from Russia 5 million km2 of territory and tens of millions of Russians in 1917-1954?

                    no, because no one cut off anything, it was justified in the framework of ONE state, but in 91, the same people let down the toilet in February 17, only the Bolsheviks were gone, the result is said on the face
                  2. Witness 45
                    Witness 45 7 March 2019 00: 51
                    0
                    No need to lie so brazenly, the liberal punks were let into the toilet for achievements of 300 years, the British puppets who staged a February revolution in 17, but the Bolsheviks just then and again restored everything, or collected everything by the year 45, study history, and compose fairy tales .
          2. Vasilenko Vladimir
            Vasilenko Vladimir 12 December 2018 19: 26
            -1
            Quote: Olgovich
            allowed then to return everything a hundredfold

            and safely pump in 1917
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 13 December 2018 07: 56
              -2
              Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
              and safely to pump in 1917

              The mentioned action was performed by your idols. WHO cut the border today, huh?
              1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                Vasilenko Vladimir 13 December 2018 08: 55
                0
                Quote: Olgovich
                The mentioned action was performed by your idols.

                and who said that shit liberals are my idols? !!!
                teach a story won't look stupid
          3. Beringovsky
            Beringovsky 14 December 2018 21: 23
            0
            Olgovich
            Today’s western border of Russia practically coincides with the border of the Brest peace.

            Thanks to the renegade and Judah, B.N.E. with accomplices.
            Olgovich
            But in 1618, yes, the resulting respite allowed later to return everything a hundredfold

            But in 1920, yes, the resulting respite allowed later to return everything a hundredfold tongue
      2. Nicholas C.
        Nicholas C. 12 December 2018 13: 23
        +10
        Quote: Samsonov
        the Poles persuaded the Cossacks, led by the hetman Peter Sagaidachny, to oppose Moscow. ... From Kaluga Sagaidachny left for Kiev, where he declared himself hetman Ukraine.
        Svidomitskaya little article. I wonder where in the 17th century the communist-Rodnover-Fomenkovets Samsonov discovered Ukraine? Judging by the context, he is even confused in the Cossacks. Orthodox Galician (born before the Union of Brest) Konashevich-Sagaidachny was selected from time to time ataman Zaporizhzhya Sich (There were no hetmans in the Sich). But at the considered time Sagaidachny was hetman The troops of Zaporizhzhya. This is elsewhere. These are registry Cossacks, i.e. receiving support from the Polish treasury and being in her service. Simply - the Polish territorial army. One can only guess what Samsonov means when he writes that the Poles "persuaded to speak" his own army, or that Sahaidachny "declared himself hetman". Did the Poles really have to send a salary to everyone who "declared themselves hetman"?
        Quote: Vasily50
        It is disgusting that the troubles were conceived and then actively supported by the church. But today this is not only NOT recognized, but priests are also attributing the laurels of the winners of the Poles to themselves.
        Being engaged in propaganda, it is impossible to tell a lie. Because people, having learned the truth, will not believe you. All interested people know the position and fate of the patriarch Germogen. The church played some negative role before the Time of Troubles, having entered into a confrontation with Tsar Boris. Although it was Boris who achieved the Patriarchate for the Russian church.
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 12 December 2018 19: 31
          +2
          Quote: Nikolai S.
          Being engaged in propaganda, it is impossible to tell a lie. Because people, having learned the truth, will not believe you.

          And this author has all the articles.
        2. Antares
          Antares 13 December 2018 00: 21
          +1
          Quote: Nikolai S.
          It is interesting where in the 17th century, the communist-Rodnover-Fomenkovets Samsonov discovered Ukraine

          these are the same "superuss" according to Samsonov. He did not have Ukraine. It is strange that the "Western Russian" or the South Russian military suddenly became Ukraine .. laughing
          generally confused in three pines ..
          When Lvov was taken were Western Russian (Voisko Zaporizhzhya) and when they besieged Moscow, they returned to Ukraine.
          But politically correct.
    2. bober1982
      bober1982 12 December 2018 08: 18
      +4
      Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
      through blood they gained power, and through their blood they lost

      You have a curious thought, but it can be said in another way - they gained power in the Ipatiev Monastery and died in the Ipatiev House.
      The first representative of the Romanov dynasty was called to the kingdom precisely in the Ipatiev Monastery, this is well known, but the fact that the reprisal against the Tsar's Family took place in a house artificially and consciously the designation Ipatievsky House was assigned, suggesting the ritual nature of the whole massacre that was organized in this house.
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 12 December 2018 17: 47
        0
        Quote: bober1982
        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
        through blood they gained power, and through their blood they lost

        You have a curious thought, but it can be said in another way - they gained power in the Ipatiev Monastery and died in the Ipatiev House.
        The first representative of the Romanov dynasty was called to the kingdom precisely in the Ipatiev Monastery, this is well known, but the fact that the reprisal against the Tsar's Family took place in a house artificially and consciously the designation Ipatievsky House was assigned, suggesting the ritual nature of the whole massacre that was organized in this house.

        Engineer Ipatiev bought that house in 1908. 10 years preparing for the ritual laughing
        1. bober1982
          bober1982 12 December 2018 18: 32
          +2
          Ipatiev bought the house at the beginning of 1918, but formally, he personally did not need this house. Ipatiev himself had rather interesting acquaintances.
          For the ritual murder, preparations were made by completely different persons, I agree that they were prepared very carefully.
    3. Vend
      Vend 12 December 2018 09: 56
      +7
      Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
      This campaign showed the precarious situation of then-Russia.

      Come on, and who didn’t receive power through blood? The Bolsheviks shed no less blood.
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 12 December 2018 17: 50
        +2
        Quote: Wend
        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
        This campaign showed the precarious situation of then-Russia.

        Come on, and who didn’t receive power through blood? The Bolsheviks shed no less blood.

        Oh oh If you are not in the know, they didn’t start Civil.
        1. Vend
          Vend 12 December 2018 18: 06
          +1
          Quote: Doliva63
          Quote: Wend
          Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
          This campaign showed the precarious situation of then-Russia.

          Come on, and who didn’t receive power through blood? The Bolsheviks shed no less blood.

          Oh oh If you are not in the know, they didn’t start Civil.


          “Terror speaks to them [the Social Democrats. - G.Kh.] as one of the possible auxiliary means, and not as a special tactic that justifies separation from revolutionary social democracy ”
          (Lenin, PSS, t. 6, p. 371).

          From the speech of V.I. Lenin at the V All-Russian Congress of Soviets:
          “A revolutionary who does not want to be a hypocrite cannot renounce the death penalty <...> They refer to decrees abolishing the death penalty. But the revolutionary is bad who, at the moment of a sharp struggle, stops before the inviolability of the law. Laws in transition have a temporary meaning. And if the law prevents the development of the revolution, it is canceled or corrected "
          (Lenin, PSS, t. 36, p. 503, 504).
  2. rayruav
    rayruav 12 December 2018 06: 43
    +4
    the Pozharsky people have Rurikovich, and what kind of Romanov upstarts
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 12 December 2018 09: 47
      +4
      There were so many descendants of Rurik, Gedimin, and Genghis Khan in Russia that the streets could be paved.
    2. Nestorych
      Nestorych 12 December 2018 12: 03
      +2
      And they are the brother-in-law of Grozny, the first is like his wife of their kind.
    3. Dirty Harry
      Dirty Harry 12 December 2018 15: 07
      +2
      Quote: rayruav
      what kind of upstarts are romanov

      In those days, it was much more important that Mikhail Romanov was Fedor Ioannovich’s native nephew (and that on the female side is not so important), and Pozharsky, Fedor Ioannovich, had 7th water on jelly!
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 12 December 2018 16: 49
        +1
        Pozharsky Kaliticham no one at all. The closest common ancestor is Vsevolod the Big Nest.
  3. Olgovich
    Olgovich 12 December 2018 06: 50
    -2
    How did the Romanovs go on "bawdy" truce with Poland
    Raunchy (without quotes) was the Brest betrayal of 1918, which gave a third of the country to the already defeated invader. The armistice of 1618 consisted of completely different conditions: Russia did not have the victorious Entente as allies, there was no one at all. Nobody called him "obscene"

    In addition, soon everything was returned, and Poland in general disappeared... These are the "inept" Romanovs.

    But the Brest "craftsmen" really brought Russia to the borders of the 17th century: see the map of Russia today: where is Russian Chernigovwhere is the Russian Novgorod-Seversky?

    And the eternal enemy Poland, destroyed by the Romanovs, was not only recognized as "craftsmen", but also grew by their efforts at the expense of German lands conquered by the blood of ... Russian soldiers ..

    The result of their "skillful" "work" -Poland is a huge, strong, absolutely hostile Russophobic state.
    1. Andrey Sukharev
      Andrey Sukharev 12 December 2018 06: 58
      +1
      For Poland - yes, here I agree with you ... The only logic of restoring a strong Poland is to get a powerful military ally in Europe. Only the allies came out so-so.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 12 December 2018 09: 07
        +5
        Quote: Andrey Sukharev
        For Poland - yes, here I agree with you ... The only logic of restoring a strong Poland is to get a powerful military ally in Europe. Only allies so come out.

        Not so-so, but enemy. Grown, restored to Soviet money and lands donated by the USSR.
        This is how it was necessary not to know the story, to SUCH to create?
    2. Halado Romane
      Halado Romane 12 December 2018 15: 15
      0
      Dear Olgovich, don't you see that such articles begin with a title? A little thought-obscene miiiir appears so ... and a material is picked up. Well, why is it necessary. After all, everyone knows what an obscene world is, namely the Bolshevik betrayal. But in order to justify the Bolshevik betrayal, it seems that they should not betray Russia, but "saved"! They got such an unlucky country like the Romanovs ... And then loyal Leninists, Bolsheviks and other Trotskyists, militant atheists who hate everything Russian, join in. Especially look how they rage about the Russian Orthodox Church! This is pure devilry! All the guys left your train and you didn't even get the last carriage. Poland, by the way, they just fed it during the USSR! So, why would anyone's cow bellow?
  4. ruigat
    ruigat 12 December 2018 07: 41
    +7
    As you can see, there is an obscene peace with the goal "not to be fat, I would live", but for the tsars, in the opinion of Bulkokhrusts like Olgovich, the excuse is rolling, but for the Bolsheviks in Brest in 1918 there is no.
    1. Halado Romane
      Halado Romane 12 December 2018 16: 49
      0
      And for this, the article is written. But the Bolsheviks, concluding this slanderous act with their sponsors and benefactors, were paying, and for the Romanovs in 1618 it was only a temporary tactical step back, soon everything was back to square one. Therefore, what kind of comparisons can comrades be ?!
      1. ruigat
        ruigat 12 December 2018 17: 03
        +2
        Normal can be comparisons. But then the Bolsheviks did not return everything back, are you a genius of history in the store?
        1. Halado Romane
          Halado Romane 12 December 2018 17: 12
          -2
          Yes, you cease to be so envious of my shops .. This is a family business and we are not rich, but we live well. Envy is a sin and eats people from the inside. Take care of your health. What did your Bolsheviks return then? Maps of the Russian Empire and the USSR compare. Yes, and in the USSR from Russia, so many compatriots gave away for a free gift. And you don’t need to talk like that with me. I’m still not going down to your level. I understand what you want, it will get louder! So Poland was generally fed for Russian sloths even in the hungry post-war years.
          1. Rastas
            Rastas 12 December 2018 22: 37
            +2
            And what is the meaning of a map of the USSR with the Russian Empire to compare? The Russian empire expanded its borders somewhere through the development of new territories, somewhere after the conclusion of peace treaties after the end of wars, somewhere in the conquest of neighboring countries. The USSR, of course, did not do this, at the wrong time or the wrong conditions. But the USSR was an example for many developing countries, they were interested in its model, respected not for missiles, but for ideas, sympathized. It was a really new project (until the 70s), which influenced the development of mankind. The Russian Empire has never succeeded in achieving this. And about the territory, it was the Kaliningrad region that never was in Russia, Western Ukraine also went to the Ukrainian SSR, the Klaipeda region, which also were not in the empire, plus the return of the Kuril Islands and South Sakhalin.
            1. Nehist
              Nehist 13 December 2018 11: 03
              0
              Well, about Prussia you are mistaken, 1758-1762 the province of East Prussia was part of the Russian Empire. The population swore allegiance to the then Empress Elizabeth Pertrovna.
          2. ruigat
            ruigat 13 December 2018 12: 04
            0
            Yes, you cease to be so envious of my shops .. This is a family business and we are not rich, but we live well. Envy is a sin and eats people from the inside. Take care of your health. What did your Bolsheviks return then? Maps of the Russian Empire and the USSR compare.

            Of course, I envy you, like peasants in 1917. envied the landlords, lifting them to the forks. I hope the house in Spain, Israel or London (underline necessary) is already purchased? For the imagination of people like me (ordinary warriors, workers, peasants, teachers, doctors, engineers, etc.) with respect to people like you (huckster speculators, thieves, bandits) is much more advanced than just pitchforks. I compared the cards. USSR in the black.
            So Poland was generally fed for Russian sloths even in the hungry post-war years.

            So Poland and under the "wise kings" lived better than the indigenous provinces of Great Russia.
  5. Konstantin Shevchenko
    Konstantin Shevchenko 12 December 2018 08: 16
    +1
    Russia has the right to demand reparation for the ruin and burning of cities.
  6. BAI
    BAI 12 December 2018 10: 05
    +3
    Yes, the conditions of the world are worse than Brest, but no one blames the Romanovs for this.

    In fact, the government of Mikhail Romanov was interested in disgracing Pozharsky, who until recently was a possible candidate for the Russian throne.

    Still would! Pozharsky - Rurikovich, he had a vested right to the throne, and the Romanovs - no one and no rights.
    1. alebor
      alebor 12 December 2018 10: 58
      +1
      Rurikovich at that time was like dogs uncut. Representatives of the ruling dynasties, royal relatives, sons of neighboring monarchs and, in the worst case, the highest ranks of the state, the boyars, had the primary right to the throne. They chose the tsar’s relatives, and at the same time the boyars — the Romanovs.
    2. Dirty Harry
      Dirty Harry 12 December 2018 15: 10
      +1
      Quote: BAI
      Pozharsky - Rurikovich, he had a vested right to the throne, and the Romanovs - no one and no rights.

      Rurikovich in the Boyar Duma was more than half - only the descendants of the first had the right to power in Moscow Moscow Prince Daniel, and the rest - had their own estates, lost them - your problem! In those days, it was much more important that Mikhail Romanov was Fedor Ioannovich’s native nephew (and that on the female side is not so important), and Pozharsky, Fedor Ioannovich, had 7th water on jelly!
  7. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 12 December 2018 10: 10
    +1
    I’m wondering, what kind of Romanovs wanted to defame Pozharsky by making him commander in chief?
    Filaret is still in captivity. Old Martha didn’t go into these matters at all (and whoever listened to her), and Ivan Nikitich was a supporter of the Swedish prince. His relationship with his nephew, to put it mildly, did not work out.
    Apparently, the author does not imagine the estate structure of Moscow Russia at all. The fact that the artless Pozharsky, bypassing all localism, was first made by the boyar, then the first governor in the only combat-ready army, and it just says that his shares rose to completely unprecedented heights. And Sheremetev, and Lykov, and everything else, this upstart across the throat was, but the trouble was, he was the only one whom the Cossacks at least somehow respected or feared. And the Cossacks were, whatever one may say, the only fighting force then. The nobles were ravaged, the Smolenses being the best-equipped, and after the victory of the militia they returned to their estates, which are now under Sigismund. (In general, the Smolensk gentry is a special category in the Russian nobility, they have always served honestly and valiantly the one ... whose flag fluttered over Smolensk). Those that are, come to the shows naked and barefoot, without horses and weapons. Sagittarius at that time was few, and Smut survived even less. In general, there are no options.
    Now according to Misha Romanov. He was chosen to the throne when he was a perfect boy. Not particularly smart. With poor health. With a bad, even by then standards, education. He had absolutely no one to lean on. His mother was, excuse me, a fool. (the thesis that she was the rule, entirely on the author’s conscience, tried to intervene - yes, the rules aren’t.) My uncle belonged to another group. Cousins ​​(Saltykovs) were always plotting. They talked about the only woman he loved (Masha Khlopova) and upset the marriage.
    And in all these conditions, he managed not only to survive, but to establish a dynasty and surrendered the country to his son in a much better condition than he accepted. For me, remembering Gorbachev, this is an achievement.
    Russia could no longer fight; peace was needed at all costs, even if it was obscene. The return of Filaret, of course, was primarily beneficial to Misha, since he, unlike him, was well versed in the apparatus warfare and quickly put in place the presumptuous boyars and relatives. Which, however, did not prevent those from trapping Mikhail’s first wife, Masha Dolgorukov, that is, the struggle continued not to life but to death.
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 12 December 2018 10: 19
      0
      But along with Filaret, many others returned from captivity: Shein, Golitsyn and many others. And these people, very seriously changed the alignment in the Boyar Duma, forcing it to finally work.
      The fact that a four-year-old boy was hanged is certainly bad, but ... was there any other way?
      The number of impostors was just off scale. The Polish aristocrat, by the way, did not hesitate to give birth to this boy from ... a dead man! In general, even public execution did not prevent Jan Faustin Loubet from appearing later.
      In short, it’s easy for us to blame Mikhail on sofas now, but he really had time trouble.
    2. Dirty Harry
      Dirty Harry 12 December 2018 15: 12
      0
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      In general, the Smolensk gentry is a special category in the Russian nobility, they always honestly and valiantly served the one ... whose flag fluttered over Smolensk

      in fact, ethnically, they were Belarusians with their classic "pamyarkounast". Do you want to live on the territory over the centuries controversial - and not so upset ...
  8. vladcub
    vladcub 12 December 2018 10: 25
    +5
    1) that the probability of the election of Pozharsky as a king was insignificant more than once, and Samsonov insists.
    2) When Pozharsky was sent to catch Lisovsky, it indicates that Moscow assessed the seriousness of the situation. When they appointed Pozharsky’s commander, they least of all thought about compromising Pozharsky. They then looked at him as a savior.
    3) Now it’s easy for us to talk about the fact that the Deulinskiy truce was an embassy and others, and you imagine the situation: there is discord in the government, there is no combat army, there are few reliable commanders, and there are a lot of potential traitors. And Poland was then a dangerous adversary. Even in the times of Khmelnitsky, Poland was feared in Moscow, and Russia under the Alexei Mikhailovich was STABLE and STRONG. I do not exclude the possibility that among the ambassadors from the Russian side there were people who were not far-sighted at least, but there could also be hidden traitors.
  9. Nestorych
    Nestorych 12 December 2018 12: 01
    +4
    With the death of the last Rurikovich, Godunov was able to take the throne, but since the time of Tsar Fyodor Ioannovich, there was a stubborn struggle between the boyar groups Godunov, Romanovs, Shuysky, Mstislavsky, she did not stop with the reign of Boris, and in fact predetermined the Time of Troubles. Instead of solidarity in the circle of the new king, repelling the external threat, equipping the country, the boyars and princes of the three clans of the Romanovs, Shuysky, Mstislavsky continue to fight for the throne, becoming virtually the founding fathers of the Troubles. This is nothing but a betrayal of the people, the country and the king, for the sake of their narrow selfish interests. The two families of the Romanovs and Shuiskys even managed to climb to the throne, and the first there to establish themselves for 300 years.
    Naturally, the Romanovs were disgraced for their anti-state activities under Tsar Boris Godunov. Fyodor Nikitich and his wife Ksenia Shestova were forcibly tonsured as monks under the names of Filaret and Martha, which should have deprived them of their right to the throne. And who do you think returned Nikitich from exile, and even put Metropolitan of Rostov? Do not be surprised - False Dmitry I! Do you know who made him the patriarch ?! Another impostor and a toy in the hands of the external enemies of Russia is False Dmitry II (General Vlasov nervously smokes on the sidelines). smile After the death of False Dmitry II, Nikitich is already negotiating with the Polish king Sigismund III on the election of the Russian tsar by the Polish (!!) royal prince Vladislav Sigismundovich, actively bargaining for boyars' liberties, which in fact is most sweet to him. At this very time in prison, sending out appeals to cities and villages, prompting the Russian people to liberate Moscow from enemies, a real St. Patriarch Germogen! Feel the difference. The next sale of Nikitich’s homeland catches the news of the election of his son Mikhail as king. Further, a rather mild conclusion compared with the same captive Tsar Vasily Shuisky, who was betrayed by the Semiboyarshchina, was given to the Poles and died with his brother in prison. Filaret didn’t, after serving, was released by enemies (!), Whom he additionally deceived, home! Just think, why such mercy? !!
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 12 December 2018 15: 00
      0
      But Filaret was never a member of the "boyar duma of the elected Moscow tsar", that is, Vladislav. Unlike the same Boris Shein, who, together with Ivan Shuisky (brother of Tsar Vasily!), Took part in the campaign against Moscow and persuaded Dorogobuzhsky to surrender to the governor Ivan Adadurov.
    2. Konstantin Shevchenko
      Konstantin Shevchenko 12 December 2018 15: 43
      -1
      A lot of fiction. There is no truth to be found. The only thing is difficult to prove that Filaret is German by birth. Oddities of Peter the Great in his Russophobia. Yes, what a difference. 21st century in the courtyard.
      1. Dirty Harry
        Dirty Harry 13 December 2018 10: 59
        -1
        Quote: Konstantin Shevchenko
        Oddities of Peter the Great in his Russophobia.

        Younger son, besides a patient with ADHD. The narrow-minded mother didn’t give a damn about his upbringing and education (all the same, the chances of taking the throne were illusory), and to other relatives ... he lost his father at 4 years old, his older brother hi - a very good king - at 10, and the smart and educated sister Sophia least needed to educate a dangerous competitor. Again, would be native brother is another matter, but he is only half-breed ...
    3. Dirty Harry
      Dirty Harry 13 December 2018 10: 53
      0
      Quote: Nestorych
      And who do you think returned Nikitich from exile, and even put Metropolitan of Rostov? Do not be surprised - False Dmitry I

      But was it - False - - this is a very controversial issue! In any case, he himself was clearly confident in his legality: imposters do not behave like that! This killed him: I would not have mercy on Shuiskys am - I would rule happily ever after!
      Quote: Nestorych
      Nikitich is already negotiating with the Polish king Sigismund III on the election by the Russian tsar of the Polish (!!) king, Vladislav Sigismundovich

      Vladislav did not become king just because his dad - a fanatical Catholic - did not agree to his adoption of Orthodoxy, which the Russian side put forward a prerequisite!
      Quote: Nestorych
      At this very time in prison, sending out appeals to cities and villages, prompting the Russian people to liberate Moscow from enemies, a real St. Patriarch Germogen!

      Germogen was not at all against Vladislav - but at an indispensable condition for the adoption of Orthodoxy!
  10. Molot1979
    Molot1979 12 December 2018 13: 15
    +1
    And then we wiped Poland out of reality.
  11. Decimam
    Decimam 12 December 2018 14: 20
    +1
    Samsonov’s work is not surprising. It is surprising that this work is being seriously discussed. Really the process went that deep?
  12. Dirty Harry
    Dirty Harry 12 December 2018 14: 59
    +1
    However, the wedding of Vladislav to the kingdom did not happen. The Polish prince was not going to convert to the Orthodox faith.

    Vladislav, it seems, did not mind saying: "Moscow is worth mass!" - but it was not he who decided, but his father - a stubborn Catholic, whose fanaticism became the primary cause of the subsequent "Flood", and in the long term - and the death of the Commonwealth!
    1. severok1979
      severok1979 16 December 2018 20: 47
      0
      Yes, the option with Vladislav was not bad, even Pozharsky managed to swear an oath to him. It is a pity that Vladislav was not allowed to accept Orthodoxy.
  13. Dirty Harry
    Dirty Harry 12 December 2018 15: 04
    -3
    Thus, the Time of Troubles in Russia ended in a very "obscene" world.

    But much less obscene than the Brest Peace. So do not blame the communists of the Romanovs!
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 12 December 2018 18: 00
      +1
      Quote: Dirty Harry
      Thus, the Time of Troubles in Russia ended in a very "obscene" world.

      But much less obscene than the Brest Peace. So do not blame the communists of the Romanovs!

      Well, supporters of serfdom know better! laughing
      1. Dirty Harry
        Dirty Harry 13 December 2018 11: 01
        0
        Quote: Doliva63
        Well, supporters of serfdom know better!

        Only now it was introduced, suddenly, not by the tsar-priest, but by the Ecumenical Council of 1649 - parliament, nonetheless. The public deity so wished to become ...
        PS I never dreamed of restoring serfdom. My ancestors owned serfs for a little more than 30 years, and even then ... the ancestor of the nobility served his mind and hump, about 1830 he married a noblewoman and took a dowry village with fifty serfs - only his professorial salary was much more than the total levy from this villages laughing
    2. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 12 December 2018 22: 39
      +2
      Quote: Dirty Harry
      So do not blame the communists of the Romanovs!

      and why not, they saved Russia after the collapse, united, restored and led it into industrial and scientific leaders, so that they may
      1. Dirty Harry
        Dirty Harry 13 December 2018 11: 10
        0
        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
        they saved Russia after the collapse, united, restored and brought it into industrial and scientific leaders

        Then they are it again collapsed and driven into a deep, deep .... hole! Moreover, the collapse of the burry plow am programmed immediately - with his paragraph on the "right of nations to self-determination down to the branch"!
        1. Vasilenko Vladimir
          Vasilenko Vladimir 13 December 2018 14: 03
          0
          Quote: Dirty Harry
          After which they again collapsed it and drove it into a deep, deep .... hole!

          Well, for the sake of truth, labeled with an alcoholic, the Communists are treated the same way as today's Egyptians with ancient Egypt
          Quote: Dirty Harry
          programmed right away - with his point about "the right of nations to self-determination up to secession"!
          We are opposed to particularism, we are convinced that, ceteris paribus, large states are much more successful than small ones in solving the problems of economic progress and the tasks of the struggle of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie. But we value communication only voluntary, and never violent. Wherever we see violent ties between nations, without preaching in any way the separation of each nation, we unconditionally and decisively defend the right of each nation to politically determine itself, that is, to secede ...
          ... But to take the school business out of the hands of the state and divide it according to nations separately organized into national unions is a harmful measure both from the point of view of democracy and even more from the point of view of the proletariat. This would only lead to the consolidation of the isolation of nations, and we should strive to bring them closer together. This would lead to an increase in chauvinism, and we must go to the closest alliance of the workers of all nations, to their joint struggle against all chauvinism, against all national exclusivity, against all nationalism ...

          re-read the work of Lenin to which you referred and be surprised to find that Lenin in his work describes 91 years and the collapse of the Union, not directly, but precisely as the aspiration of the national bourgeoisie as opposed to the aspirations of the proletariat
          1. Dirty Harry
            Dirty Harry 13 December 2018 15: 06
            -1
            Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
            are the same as today's Egyptians with ancient Egypt

            Plus! For about 50% of the population of Egypt are direct descendants of the ancient Egyptians!
            1. Vasilenko Vladimir
              Vasilenko Vladimir 13 December 2018 16: 05
              -1
              Quote: Dirty Harry
              Plus! For about 50% of the population of Egypt are direct descendants of the ancient Egyptians!

              give a reference to the source, since there are only about 1,5 million people as Copts
              1. Dirty Harry
                Dirty Harry 14 December 2018 13: 34
                -1
                Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                Bo as Copts, there are only about 1,5 million people

                Copts are a religious + linguistic affiliation, not a racial type. Over the centuries, the vast majority of native Egyptians converted to Islam - and switched to Arabic.
                1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                  Vasilenko Vladimir 14 December 2018 13: 35
                  0
                  Quote: Dirty Harry
                  Copts ...

                  study the topic properly, Copts - ethno-religious group in North Africa and the Middle East, distributed mainly in Egypt.
                2. Vasilenko Vladimir
                  Vasilenko Vladimir 14 December 2018 13: 36
                  0
                  give a link to YOUR fictions or just as you heard Lenin’s work, and it’s not very intelligible
          2. Dirty Harry
            Dirty Harry 14 December 2018 13: 32
            -1
            Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
            and you will be surprised to find that Lenin in his work describes the year 91 and the collapse of the Union, not directly, but precisely as the aspiration of the national bourgeoisie as opposed to the aspirations of the proletariat

            That is, you acknowledge that party bonuses by 1991 have become the bourgeoisie - like Orwell pigs? So Orwell predicted it back in 1944!
            1. Vasilenko Vladimir
              Vasilenko Vladimir 14 December 2018 13: 34
              0
              Are you from Odessa ?!
              I’m not tired of writing about things in which we are not very strong, they sat down in a puddle with Lenin’s work, with copts, something incomprehensible grumbled into the bushes, now they’ve found a new topic ?!
              1. Dirty Harry
                Dirty Harry 14 December 2018 13: 40
                -1
                Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                I’m not tired of writing about what are not very strong, with the work of Lenin sat in a puddle, with copts, something not intelligible burkunli and in the bushes

                I am from Moscow. In the works of Lenin am really not strong - why should I know all his verbiage, I judge by the results! If something is not clear to you about the Egyptians - google "Egyptian haplotypes". Indigenous - E1b and suddenly Erbines R1b (they are, of course, aliens, but passed from Asia to Europe through Suez-North Africa-Gibraltar in the prehistoric period, but already in antiquity there were many who mixed in - the same Semites (J2), and Aryans (Ramessids, EMNIP, Aryans)
                1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                  Vasilenko Vladimir 14 December 2018 14: 37
                  0
                  Quote: Dirty Harry
                  I am from Moscow. In the works of Lenin is really not strong - why should I know all his verbiage

                  excuse me, but you’re extremely stupid, firstly because you’re going to argue about his works without even reading them, and secondly calling them verbiage, take off you can agree you can argue, but you certainly can’t call them verbiage, and if you had the mind to read the work that you mildly spat on, you would probably understand that the person who wrote it is smart enough and educated
                  Quote: Dirty Harry
                  If something is not clear to you about the Egyptians - google "haplotypes of the Egyptians"

                  take the trouble to provide a link to the statement of soy, for today it is the Copts who are the descendants of those who lived in Ancient Egypt
                  http://ru-sled.ru/kopty-potomki-faraonov-i-drevnix-egiptyan/
                  1. Dirty Harry
                    Dirty Harry 14 December 2018 16: 26
                    -1
                    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                    you’re going to argue about his works without even reading them,

                    read - about 35 years ago.
                    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                    take it off you can agree, you can argue, but certainly you can’t call them verbiage,

                    must be judged by comparing his words with deeds
                    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                    would understand that the person who wrote it is smart enough and educated

                    I do not deny it - although he is very far from Marx (hint: count how many primary sources Marx refers to and how many - Lenin). What does not cancel verbiage!
                    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                    http://ru-sled.ru/kopty-potomki-faraonov-i-drevnix-egiptyan/

                    the site begins with the words: "It is believed, that the Copts are the direct descendants of the ancient Egyptians and Egyptian pharaohs ... "
                    Who is considered?
                    And the site http: //xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/? Page_id = 27168 generally states that "the ancient Egyptians were genetically close to the Middle Eastern population. Modern Egyptians are quite different from the ancients, mainly in the share of the African genetic component acquired in later times. (...) The absolute share of the African contribution of the ancient Egyptians was from 6 to 15%, and among the modern - from 14 to 21%. Presumably, the Egyptians received the flow of African genes about 700 years ago. "
                    However, 6-15% and 14-21% - this is still not so much, the main part of the genotype has been preserved!
                    1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                      Vasilenko Vladimir 14 December 2018 18: 05
                      0
                      Quote: Dirty Harry
                      read - about 35 years ago.

                      let's not have fairy tales, at best diagonally when they passed the test and the exam in the history of the CPSU
                      Quote: Dirty Harry
                      must be judged by comparing his words with deeds

                      compare and say referring to quotes what is wrong
                      Quote: Dirty Harry
                      generally states that "the ancient Egyptians were genetically close to the Middle Eastern population

                      Dear, we are genetically close to the Poles, but this does not mean that the first native inhabitants of Russia
                      ps According to the authors of a new article, they were able to obtain reliable data of genetic analysis using modern sequencing methods. by your link

                      ps not knowing the topic do not meddle in the argument
                      1. Dirty Harry
                        Dirty Harry 15 December 2018 16: 02
                        -1
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        at best, diagonally when they passed the test and the exam in the history of the CPSU

                        however, I passed with excellent marks
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        we are genetically close to the Poles, but this does not mean that the first native inhabitants of Russia

                        who? The Fatyanovites are much like the ancient Finno-Ugrians, and the hydronyms to the Urals are Aryan!
                      2. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 15 December 2018 16: 12
                        -1
                        Quote: Dirty Harry
                        however, I passed with excellent marks

                        once again, let’s not, you have not passed one, and based on how you showed knowledge of Lenin’s work, everything is clear
                        Quote: Dirty Harry
                        who?

                        do not fool
                      3. Dirty Harry
                        Dirty Harry 15 December 2018 22: 52
                        -1
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        do not fool

                        I didn’t include you. And if you don't know. who are the Fatyanovites - this only proves the "depth" of your knowledge!
                      4. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 15 December 2018 23: 13
                        -1
                        you have already shown your depth
                      5. Dirty Harry
                        Dirty Harry 15 December 2018 23: 16
                        -1
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        you have already shown your depth

                        depending on what. I know the story better than you, and the works of Kartavoy Pakhan am ... I need it? I have not read "Mein Kampf" either, and I do not complex about ignorance of this opus! laughing
                      6. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 16 December 2018 07: 33
                        -1
                        you are self-confident and stupid, you have 0.0000 knowledge, and aplomb to heaven, you declare that you do not know the works, but at the same time you undertake to judge and argue about them from which we can conclude that you know the same story
                      7. Dirty Harry
                        Dirty Harry 16 December 2018 12: 56
                        -1
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        you are self-confident and stupid, you have 0.0000 knowledge, and aplomb to heaven, you declare that you do not know the works, but at the same time you undertake to judge them

                        you are self-confident and stupid, like every stubborn communist; You have a lot of knowledge, but knowledge of Kartavoi’s pseudoscientific theories is worthless - and aplomb to heaven, although it is based on nothing but istmath and diamate!
  14. Batonkt
    Batonkt 14 December 2018 11: 35
    0
    I’m looking for Larka Podkopaya, who, after the events described here, donkey in the village of Bogorodsky donated to the estate of the unknown Kozma Minin as a reward. In the census of 1622, Larka Podkopaya does not appear, but further in the census of 1646 there are two of his remarkable sons, Ivashka and Troshka, Lavrentieva Podkopaeva.