In Italy, questions arose about the purchase of the F-35В for the aircraft carrier "Cavour"

The Italian media reported on the call of the aircraft carrier "Cavour" in the home port of Taranto. It is stated that this ship of the Italian Navy, which became part of fleet in 2009, modernization procedures will be underway with the goal of ultimately being the carrier of 5th generation American carrier-based fighter aircraft.

According to the latest data, the modernization and re-equipment of the Kavura will last until 2020, after which the Italian aircraft carrier will go to the USA, where they will be tested with F-35B aircraft.

Some specifications aircraft carrier "Cavour":
length - 244 m, width - 39 m, draft - 8,7 m, displacement - 27,5 thousand tons, maximum speed - 29 nodes, cruising range - 7 thousand nautical miles at average speed in 20 nodes.

Earlier it became known that between Italy and the United States the largest contract for the purchase of combat aircraft was signed for this country in recent years. For the needs of the Italian Army and Navy, Rome acquires a total of X-NUMX F-90 airplanes of various modifications: X-NUMX F-35A and 60-F-35B fighters. At the same time 30 fighter F-35B will be sent precisely to the Italian Navy (the rest - in the Air Force of the country).

Meanwhile, in Italy itself, there are questions about the feasibility of the very "modernization" of the aircraft carrier, which became part of the fleet less than 10 years ago. The main question is: why did Rome decide to bet on American airplanes? Experts say that we can talk about a certain kind of pressure from the US authorities, since it is necessary for those to advance the F-35 aircraft, the program of which is very expensive for the States. At the same time, an expert opinion is that the Italian budget is not so large as to afford the maintenance of an impressive fleet of American aircraft in those conditions when, to put it mildly, this does not quite correspond to the interests of Italy.

Recall that Italy is one of the countries in Europe in which the US contains tactical nuclear weapon. At the moment, in the United States, work is underway to rearm the B61-12 bombs with plans for their subsequent delivery to the American base of the European continent.

Comments

[ANCIENT]

in general, it is high time it was time to call the 35 5 generation fighters. because of their inconsistency with the 5 generation requirements. I just need to call them a new fighter model.

[Tibidokh]

Quote: ANCIENT

you just need to call them the new fighter model

Let's call it a "cucumber"! No, let's get a bucket! Although no, let's not name it at all, whoever remembers the F-35 will ...

Quote: ANCIENT

due to their inconsistency with the criteria for 5th generation aircraft

From what you call (or do not call) this plane is bad (good), it will not become worse (better).
The enemy came up with a plane, came up with a concept for its use. In some ways it is inferior to its foreign counterparts, in something it is superior, but it is foolish to doubt that it is a fifth-generation aircraft.
The Americans developed their own requirements for the 5th generation and fulfilled them. Forgive the "stupid" Americans for not agreeing (unifying) with us the requirements for the "5" fighter ...
Our Su-57 is significantly superior (so far only in theory) and the F-22 and F-35, however, according to the Americans, it also does not meet the criteria of the 5th generation (the criterion of "invisibility"), but this does not mean that our the aircraft is not a 5th generation fighter.

[Lord of the Sith]

List the requirements for the aircraft to be called the 5th generation. And name these requirements in F-22 and F-35.

[Tibidokh]

Requirements for the USA.
1. Low radar signature.
2. Perfect avionics, providing a network-centric component and a multi-aspect weapon.
3. Multifunctionality.
4. Afterburning supersonic.

Anticipating my opponents, I will say the following.
F-35A has an afterburning supersonic speed. F-35s in versions B and C are probably not.
F-22 does not have an all-round weapon; in 2020 it will be. By the way, the F-22 has super maneuverability.

Our requirements are more rigid, I mean maneuverability.
With maneuverability, of course, with us, thank God, everything is in order. With low visibility ... slightly worse than we would like.

With network-centricity ... The plane itself, of course, is planned to be network-centric. But with whom will he "network-centric"?

[Days]

Quote: Tibidokh

Anticipating my opponents, I will say the following.
F-35A has an afterburning supersonic speed. F-35s in versions B and C are probably not.
F-22 does not have an all-round weapon; in 2020 it will be. By the way, the F-22 has super maneuverability.

See jsf.mil: https://web.archive.org/web/20181120154700/http://www.jsf.mil/contact/con_faqs.htm

Does the F-35 supercruise?
No, neither the F135 or F136 engines were designed to supercruise.

It can go to supersonic with fast and furious, but in cruising mode - no. Otherwise, it must be said that almost all 4th-generation aircraft have cruising supersonic sound.

[Tibidokh]

Quote: Dagen

https://web.archive.org/web/20181120154700/http://www.jsf.mil/contact/con_faqs.htm

I waited a long time until it opens ...
What kind of resource is this?

Quote: Dagen

It can go to supersonic with fast and furious, but in cruising mode - no.

You have false information. Officially, Vice President Lockheed said this.

[Troll]

>>> What kind of resource is this? <<
This is a web archive. And he is, yes, slow. As befits an archive, it archives (saves) almost all network data, that is, the Internet. Perhaps he saves the data of this site.

Judging by the link, the original article is located somewhere on www.jsf.mil

[Tibidokh]

Quote: Troll

Judging by the link, the original article is located somewhere on www.jsf.mil

[Days]

Quote: Tibidokh

You have false information. Officially, Vice President Lockheed said this.

This is your false information. Between 150 miles of supersonic that the F-35 can do, and cruising afterburning supersonic is a huge chasm.

[Tibidokh]

Quote: Dagen

150 miles of supersonic F-35

So still able?

Quote: Dagen

This is your false information

All claims please to Mr. Stephen O'Bryan and Mrs. Marillyn A. Hewson.
How did I know that they were lying, and you have more reliable information.

[Days]

You look master demagoguery breed. Summary: F-35s your supersonic reached a solid fourth generation. The same Su-27 is remarkably able to accelerate in afterburner and then maintain speed.

"Mach 1.2 is a good speed for you, according to the pilots". And further - that the F-35 is able to overcome the sound on the afterburner and reach 1.2M, after which the afterburner turns off, the F-35 operates in standard cruise mode, gradually slowing down. After 150 miles, it just slows down to the speed of sound. Dull cruising supersonic! Hippos are birds too, they just fly down

And in the same interview: The F-35, while not technically a "supercruising" aircraft, can maintain Mach 1.2 for a dash of 150 miles without using fuel-gulping afterburners. Looks like O'Bryan disagrees with your words.

Poor Su-35, with the afterburner achievement and maintaining supersound, is crying quietly in the corner.

[Tibidokh]

Quote: Dagen

You look master demagoguery breed.

Well, this does not take away from me!

Quote: Dagen

The F-35 with your supersonic sound has reached the solid fourth generation.

What’s there, let's have a third ... what's the difference?

Quote: Dagen

The same Su-27

We are not talking about the Su-27.
Let's better read the hated O'Bryan (taken from the article you quoted above).

The F-35, while not technically a "bullet" aircraft, can maintain Mach 1.2 at 150 miles without the use of an afterburner. “Mach 1.2 is good speed for you, according to the pilots,” O'Brien said.

Let's start "demagoguery".
1. The article does not say that the speed in M ​​= 1,2 is achieved by including afterburner, although you write the opposite:

Quote: Dagen

And further - that the F-35 is able to overcome the sound with the afterburner and reach 1.2M, after which the afterburner turns off

I did not see this in the article. It turns out that you have conjectured to the "desired" result for you.
2. It will be fair to note that the opposite opinion that the F-35 can reach speeds of M = 1,2 without afterburner is not given in the article.
3. You write.

Quote: Dagen

After 150 miles it just slows down to the speed of sound.

Why do you think so? Why up to the speed of sound? On the contrary, the article says that for 150 miles the speed is maintained at M = 1,2.

Quote: Dagen

Looks like O'Bryan disagrees with your words.

An interesting trick ... You frivolously interpreted the statement of a pin ... an American, and then blamed me.

Quote: Dagen

Poor Su-35

Nobody says that the Su-35 is Poor. In some respects, it surpasses the F-35 by a head. But for some it’s behind.

Quote: Dagen

Su-35 with an afterthought

I have not read about the Su-35, so I will not argue. If so, then good! And if you think again, it’s bad.

[Pimply]

Quote: Tibidokh

F-35 in versions B and C is probably not.

And why is that????

Quote: Tibidokh

Our requirements are more rigid, I mean maneuverability.
With maneuverability, of course, with us, thank God, everything is in order. With low visibility ... slightly worse than we would like.

After the appearance of a new generation of all-angle air-to-air missiles, the question of the need for super-maneuverability, well, is hanging in the air.

[Tibidokh]

Quote: Pimply

And why is that???

From Lockheed's presconference, I realized that the F-35A had a maximum non-landing speed with a normal take-off mass = 1,2М. About the versions B and C nothing intelligible was said.

Quote: Pimply

After the advent of a new generation of all-angle rockets

An ambiguous moment. All-round missiles appeared in response to the over-maneuverability of domestic aircraft and the F-22.
This is about the situation with the battle of two stealth aircraft, which are likely to meet at medium or near range - here super maneuverability MAY come in handy.
And all-perspective missiles - out of two inconspicuous super-maneuverable aircraft, an advantage MAY be obtained by one with a larger angle of attack.

[Pimply]

Quote: Tibidokh

From Lockheed's presconference, I realized that the F-35A had a maximum non-landing speed with a normal take-off mass = 1,2М. About the versions B and C nothing intelligible was said.

In 2012, the F135 engine stood. He gave 1.2 MAX 150 miles without using an afterburner. Now F135 is replaced with F135 Growth Option 1, which gave an increase by 6-10 percent

[Snail N9]

Alas, a low ESR (within certain limits) is just a MANDATORY condition for classifying aircraft as the notorious "5th generation" ...

[Machito]

The Americans twist their hands to their allies to pay for the expensive F-35 toy.

[TermNachTer]

In which projections is the low EPR? For some reason they forget that they only have a low ESR in the frontal projection, in all the others it is quite normal. Or are the Americans and everyone else firmly convinced that their planes will fly only with their nose to the enemy?

[Winnie76]

Quote: TermNachTER

In which projections is the low EPR?

It has a needle character. And it depends on the frequency of the radar. Radar m and dm range stealth do not care.

[TermNachTer]

So here I am the same. Where is the confidence that you can always fly with your nose to the radar? And without "invisibility" - a plane so-so, average lousy.

[Roma 1977]

EPR is a relative concept. Looking from what angle. Or for example, if on external suspensions a weapon with high ESR, what is the use of low ESR of the aircraft itself? A lot of factors.

[Pimply]

Quote: Snail N9

Alas, a low ESR (within certain limits) is just a MANDATORY condition for classifying aircraft as the notorious "5th generation" ...

Actually, no. All hold on to some conditional and very old list as for some kind of axiom. In fact, each country itself forms for itself the requirements for the new generation of fighters.

And the primary in the fifth generation is a qualitative transition, the amount of technologies used in one device, and not just an upgrade

[Every]

Quote: Tibidokh

Quote: ANCIENT

you just need to call them the new fighter model

Let's call it a "cucumber"! No, let's get a bucket! Although no, let's not name it at all, whoever remembers the F-35 will ...

[Pimply]

Quote: ANCIENT

in general, it is high time it was time to call the 35 5 generation fighters. because of their inconsistency with the 5 generation requirements. I just need to call them a new fighter model.

Can you justify this nonsense?

[Russia]

America in its repertoire. They produce what they want, drag in whom and how much they want.

[Sergey39]

Just making it harder and harder for America. So Italy doubted. And not the fact that the Amy will convince them.

[Russia]

Of course, common thoughts are present in Europe, whether it comes to action. Sanctions against Russia are also burdensome for them, but no, we just hear a timid whisper.

[Professor]

Quote: Sergey39

Just making it harder and harder for America. So Italy doubted. And not the fact that the Amy will convince them.

It is typical for all kinds of Democrats to ask questions and doubt. They do not doubt the decisions of their rulers in China, North Korea and even some highly spiritual countries.

Quote: Author

Experts note that it may be a question of a certain kind of pressure from the US authorities, since it is necessary to promote F-35 aircraft, the program of which is very expensive for the States.

Not. Not too expensive. The serial F-35 is already cheaper than the serial F-15. Miracles.

[Vasyan1971]

Quote: professor

No. Not too expensive. The serial F-35 is already cheaper than the serial F-15.

I remember that in the distant 90s I gave my younger sister a Barbie doll. The doll itself is not very expensive, but the accompanying accessories .... With the FE-35, the situation is simple: "the claw is tangled, the whole bird is gone."

[Maximxnumx]

With fe-35 the situation is simple:

Can you describe the "simple" situation in more detail? An hour of flight is cheaper, there is only one engine, 3K + pieces will be produced, so what's the problem?

[Roma 1977]

A little more, and when buying an F-35, the seller will first give them away for free, and then he will even begin to pay. Trend.

[41 REGION]

The main question: why did Rome decide to bet on American planes? Experts say that there may be a certain kind of pressure from the US authorities, as it is necessary to promote F-35 aircraft, the program of which is very expensive for the States.

Italy doesn’t want to help its partners, out of order

[bouncyhunter]

Quote: 41 REGION

Italy does not want to help its partners

Yeah, but the United States only cares about its partners: it will force them to maintain sanctions at a loss, then they will impose duties on them, then they voluntarily / forcibly offer all kinds of F-35 and LNG at exorbitant prices. Well, right is Saint Agnes with a basket of virtues.

[41 REGION]

Yeah, but the United States only cares about its partners

They are supposed to have the same regional committee. And Saint Agnes is just in Italy, It’s their state in the state

[bouncyhunter]

Quote: 41 REGION

They are supposed to have the same regional committee.

The party said - "we must!" , the Komsomol answered - "yes!" ... Otherwise, a call to the carpet and a planer with tightening nuts.

[Henderson]

Quote: bouncyhunter

then voluntarily / forcibly offers all sorts of F-35 and LNG at exorbitant prices

Is Russia able to offer the Italians an alternative VTOL for their aircraft carrier? And if not, then at least someone in the world is capable of?

[prior]

What is the difference between Italians and Hedgehogs:
Yes, no, and they both paid, pricked, but continued to eat the cactus.

[Vadim851]

With the commissioning of the aircraft carrier, the Italians get an AUG, taking into account frigates, which are essentially destroyers. The fleet is even redundant for Italy, if you look at the likely threats, of which there are few.

[Machito]

And who is threatening Italy?
Italy has only two threats: Etna and Vesuvius. Will the F-35 handle them?

[Vadim851]

No one at the moment. Until 2011 it was possible to refer to Libya, now it will be superfluous.

[san4es]

... the Italian budget is not so large as to afford the maintenance of an impressive fleet of American aircraft ...

...... Draft 8,7 m
Engines 4 LM2500 gas turbine engines
Power 118 000 l. with. (86,8 MW)
Cruising range 7000 nautical miles at 16 knots
The crew is 528 people, including 203 people - the flight and technical staff of the air group.
In addition to them, the ship can accommodate headquarters of up to 145 people.
weaponry
Artillery 2 × 76-mm AU "Super Rapid"
3 × 25 mm AU “OTO Melara”
Missile weapons 4 × 8 UVP "Silver" A43 (SAM "Aster-15")
Aviation group 8 AV-8B Harrier II aircraft and 12 helicopters.

[voyaka uh]

Italy has a bad economic situation. Therefore, they begin to save on everything. F35B is not to blame in this case, but "no money".

[Maximxnumx]

Italy has a poor economic situation

And who is easy now?
The economy is in the top 10 in the world. Italy has always had a fleet, and not much worse than that of the French or Germans. The French have their own De Gaulle, so pasta also wants to have its own aircraft carrier. By the way, they have no less ships in the far sea zone than Russia (operating, and not those that are registered, such as pr 956, 1144 Nakhimov, 1164 Moscow, 1143.5 Kuzya, etc.).

[voyaka uh]

"I have a desire ..." (from an old Italian comedy). If no joke, then in Italy the leading banks are in a threatening condition, on the verge of default. Therefore, there is panic in Parliament and a desire to cut back on the armed forces. Of course, they could easily equip their aircraft carrier with a dozen or more F-35Bs. True, his wings do not fold, so you can't stuff a lot into the hold.
And so - a successful reliable "vertical". There is a serious demand for it.

[Maximxnumx]

True, his wings do not add up, so you can’t cram a lot into the hold.

Was there an article about Izumo yesterday? Regarding the hold and size ... The MiG-29K folded, 7,8 m, the F-35 - 11 m. The difference is small.

leading banks in threat, on the verge of default

I hear about default in the United States every year, about default in Ukraine - at least once a month, about default in Italy, they say since the beginning of 2000 (when Berlusconi sold Milan). In fact, we have 1998, 2008, 2014 - defaults in Russia ... and the rotting West, both lives and lives ... By the way, Berlusconi bought another club for himself, and plans to buy Milan from the Chinese.

And so - a successful reliable "vertical".

She has a big plus - she is now on the market the only vertical.

[Roma 1977]

"Default" is a very clear term, not a substitute for "@ # $! # @". In Russia, the default was only in 1998.

[voyaka uh]

"now the ONLY vertical line is on the market." ////
----
The F-35B has two points that make it attractive:
1) short take-off from the FLAT deck
2) Landing on a fully automatic.
First: the ability to take off from any large ship.
Three: Aces pilots are not required, aero-finishing cables are not required. Everything is very simplified.
These advantages outweigh all the disadvantages of vertical bars: lower bomb capacity and a smaller radius of action.

[Maximxnumx]

1) short take-off from the FLAT deck

But, for some reason, they do not disdain the springboard, no shaves, no japanas, no pasta ... For little money, we get a normal carrying capacity. As for the aerial finishers, the B version has a vertical landing .. and, if it is also in the machine gun, then the Yak-41 and Baku incident can be avoided.
Yes, and as he said, there is no real alternative, and no one is expected. Something the Chinese are silent about SV / KVP. And so yes, any UDC from 20 kT, becomes a light / escort aircraft carrier.

[Town Hall]

Quote: voyaka uh

If no jokes, then in Italy the leading banks are in a threatening state, on the verge of default. Therefore, there is panic in the Parliament and a desire to cut back on the armed forces

Are you sure this is true?

[Town Hall]

Quote: voyaka uh

Italy has a bad economic situation. Therefore, they begin to save on everything. F35B is not to blame in this case, but "no money".

You have inaccurate information. No one is going to revise the F-35 procurement program. The article is nonsense from "nameless experts" written

[Corn]

The main question: why did Rome decide to bet on American planes?

No choice. What are the alternatives to VTOL in the world?

Experts note

after such statements, the value of words as experts tends to zero.

Moreover, the expert opinion also lies in the fact that the Italian budget is not so large

it would be better if starving Italian pensioners were handed out, they live so poorly. Italy's GDP is higher than that of Russia, while only 1.7% is spent on defense, the author of the article suggests that they completely abandon the army?

[Vasyan1971]

"At the same time, the expert opinion is also that the Italian budget is not large enough to afford the maintenance of an impressive fleet of American aircraft in those conditions when, to put it mildly, this does not fully correspond to the interests of Italy."
Well. A regiment of rogues not pulling the fe-35 arrived.

[IXION]

Rome decided to bet on American airplanes, because there are no other alternatives, it will not work for Russian-made airplanes, and they hope it is stupid.
And again, why would they buy aging 4-generation aircraft if you can immediately buy a fifth.
As for the pressure: I think America will just offer all sorts of buns in addition to the aircraft purchased.

[APASUS]

Italy itself raises questions about the appropriateness of the very “modernization” of the aircraft carrier, which became part of the fleet less than 10 years ago. The main question: why did Rome decide to bet on American planes?

For a country mired in debt, very strange questions are asked by the population

[Kalkan]

I did not understand one. And which aircraft is offered as an alternative to the F-35V for this aircraft carrier?

[Hole puncher]

The main question: why did Rome decide to bet on American planes?

And what kind of degenerate is asking such questions? The only VTOL in the world is the F35B, there are simply no alternatives, what should Italians acquire instead? Moreover, they themselves produce it.

[Roma 1977]

It is cheaper to sell an unnecessary light aircraft carrier than to buy an even more unnecessary air wing for it. Light aircraft carriers are solely a toy for "power prestige", not a full-fledged combat unit. A real aircraft carrier should be large, nuclear and have its own AWACS. The same applies to "Kuza" completely.

[Henderson]

Kuznetsov will be quite dangerous to get close to the Italians with the F-35 air wing. Prestige Italians enough.

[Roma 1977]

Are the Italians going to the Arctic in the Cavour? Oh well.

[Henderson]

What for? Or Kuzya is no longer capable of a second campaign to Syria?

[Roma 1977]

Not anymore. In five years, he will only start swimming again. But the same suitcase without a handle, like the Cavour. He has no place in the naval doctrine of Russia.

[Henderson]

And if he could even walk without a tug and have an air wing from fifth-generation fighters?

[Roma 1977]

Bombing the savages - the fifth generation is unnecessary. And he went without a tug. There are no catapults on the "Cavour" either, which means that the aircraft will have to start with an incomplete load and a small combat radius, and the air group itself is scanty, there are only 8 aircraft in the state.

[Henderson]

Quote: Roma-1977

To bomb savages - the fifth generation is not necessary.

protect yourself from Turkish "backstab" for example

[Roma 1977]

An aircraft carrier cannot protect anyone; he himself demands protection from all sides. A purely offensive weapon. And it will not save Turkey from its 15 aircraft. The best aircraft carrier against Turkey is the Crimea.

[Henderson]

The fifth generation could defend itself against the Turkish F-16.

[Roma 1977]

No. Eight fifth-generation aircraft on the deck of a light aircraft carrier are a tidy target for the F-16 striker.

[Henderson]

Ahh, black is white. Clear.

[Roma 1977]

The F-35B is far from an interceptor. It is not designed for air superiority. Its purpose is to strike at ground targets unnoticed by the enemy's air defense. In theory, of course, he can shoot down planes, but the role of "defender of aircraft carriers from air attack" is not about him.

[Henderson]

He practically can also shoot down planes. It has exactly the same radar, sensors, and weapons as the land versions.

[Roma 1977]

He has a radius of action and a small load.

[Henderson]

865 km without PTB and refueling is a small radius? And who has it more?
Is a combat load of 7 tons too small? Well, try to compare with the F-16 or even the Mig-35.

[Roma 1977]

Incorrect information. The combat radius is not the flight range divided by two, but should be divided by 3,5. It turns out 477 kilometers. And, be sure, when you start from the deck without a catapult, they will hang on it two tons instead of seven, or refuel with fuel, which is even worse. Advertising is just advertising.

[vitvit123]

Quote: professor

It is typical for all kinds of Democrats to ask questions and doubt. They do not doubt the decisions of their rulers in China, North Korea and even some highly spiritual countries.

There was a time we liked America, there was a time we followed her advice, but this brought us humiliation, pain, disappointment, and, as it turned out, we were always enemies for them and did not stop being them, they always wage war against us, YOU KNOW IT ALL ... Nasty hints. After them, the respect for the enemy even leaves. But in many ways, of course, we ourselves are to blame. They would ascribe us - although, of course, you’re better off with sarcasm, rotten, everything is as it should be.

[Sands Careers General]

So in Italy they produce the Fu-35, why buy them from the Yankees?
Correct if I'm wrong.

[voyaka uh]

In Italy, an assembly plant. But they get most of the parts from the United States and other component manufacturers.
The assembly price is deducted from the total cost of the aircraft.

[Pimply]

Well, apparently, experts are not aware that Italy was part of the F35 project as one of the participants, was the third in terms of funding the program and has on its territory the F35 assembly plant.

Illiterate it's all a bit

[Pontiffsulyvahn]

The main question: why did Rome decide to bet on American planes? Experts say

Oh, these experts, oh, these questioners. I wonder what to bet on? Such large purchases happen every couple of decades. Iskperdy offer to buy an aircraft of the previous generation, so that by 2050, when the whole world will be cut by 5th generation aircraft, they will be left with obsolete junk that there is no one to even maintain?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: PontiffSulyvahn

Iskperdy offer to buy an aircraft of the previous generation, so that by 2050, when the whole world will be cut by 5th generation aircraft, they will be left with obsolete junk, which there is no one to even maintain?

He-he-he ... Isperdy is not even aware that other KVVP aircraft are not produced in the world, except for the F-35B. For the Harrier was discontinued, and the Yak-141 was never born.

[Henderson]

The main question: why did Rome decide to bet on American planes?

I am simply amazed at the analytical abilities of the author of the article.
And who else in the world has 5th generation VTOL?