Military Review

Was the Tiger "royal"?

94
Trials of the Royal Tiger in Kubinka
The heavy tank Pz Kpfw Tiger Ausf B (according to the unified designation system adopted by the Germans was also called the Sd Kfz 182 - "special type 182 combat vehicle") was developed at Henschel under the guidance of its chief designer Erwin Anders and was mass-produced from January 1944 to May 1945 Weight tank amounted to 69,4 tons, specific power 10,08 hp / t. The hull and turret were made of rolled homogeneous armor of medium and low hardness. A total of 487 cars were produced.



The first Tigr-B tanks, captured by our troops, were delivered to Kubinka on the GBTU scientific testing ground for comprehensive study. These were the 102 and 502 machines. Even when tanks were moving under their own power to the loading station, numerous defects were found: on the 86 km, the left sloth failed due to the destruction of the bearings and the left drive wheel due to the shearing of all the mounting bolts. The heat that stood up to 30 degrees Celsius these days turned out to be excessive for the cooling system, which led to overheating of the right engine block and to constant overheating of the gearbox.
Was the Tiger "royal"?

We did not have time to repair the tank, as the right-hand side transmission was completely destroyed, which was replaced by the one removed from another tank, but it also failed due to the destruction of the roller bearing of the drive shaft. In addition, every now and then it was necessary to change the tracks of the tracks, which are subject to destruction, especially when turning. The design of the caterpillar tension mechanism was not fully developed, which resulted in adjusting their tension every 10-15 km of the march.

In the end, both trophies were delivered to the NIIBT-Polygon, where the machine number XXUMX was subjected to further sea trials. The tests were carried out with great difficulty due to the extremely low reliability of the elements of the chassis, power plant and transmission. It was found that 102 liters of gasoline is enough for only 860 km of driving along a country road, although the instructions for the car indicated that this gasoline should be enough for 90 km. Fuel consumption for 120 km is 100 L, instead of 970 L according to the same (captured) instructions. The average speed on the highway was 700-25 km / h, and on a country road - 30-13,4 km / h. The maximum speed specified in the technical documentation of the tank, in 15 km / h to achieve on the sea trials never failed.


For an objective assessment of the armor resistance of the tank, it was decided to bombard the hull and turret of the captured vehicle with tower number 102, most of the components and assemblies from which were dismantled for further research. Armament of the tank was sent for research on the ANIOP.


The shelling tests were carried out in the autumn of 1944, in Kubinka, and the following results were obtained:

"1. The quality of armor of the Tigr-B tank compared to the quality of armor of the tanks: Tigr-N, Panther and SU Ferdinand of the first issues, has deteriorated sharply. In the armor of the Tigr-B tank from the first single hits cracks and splits are formed. From the group of missile hits (3-4 shells) in the armor large splits and breaks are formed.
2. For all units of the hull and turret of the tank, the weakness of the welds is characteristic. Despite careful implementation, the seams during firing behave significantly worse than it did in similar designs of tanks "Tiger-N", "Panther" and SU "Ferdinand".
3. The armor frontal sheets tank thickness from 100 to 190 mm when hit 3-4 armor or high-explosive projectiles artillery systems caliber 152, 122 and 100 mm, the distance 500-1000 m, cracks, spalling and fracture of the welds, disrupting the operation of the transmission and the failure of the tank as irretrievable losses.


4. The BS-3 (100 mm) and A-19 (122 mm) cannon armor-piercing shells penetrate through the 500-600 m into the edges or joints of the hull of the Tiger-B hull.
5. The BS-3 (100 mm) and A-19 (122 mm) cannon armor-piercing shells penetrate through the 1000-1500 tank front sheet through the front sheet of the turret of the Tigr-B tank.
6. Armor-piercing 85-mm shells of D-5 and C-53 cannons do not penetrate the front hull of the tank hull and do not produce any structural damage from the 300 distance.
7. The side armor plates of the tank differ in sharp unequal strength compared with the front plates and are the most vulnerable part of the armor hull and turret of the tank.

8. The hull side plates and turret of the tank are punched by armor-piercing shells of the 85-mm domestic and 76-mm American cannon from the 800-2000 distance m.
9. The side sheets of the hull and turret of the tank do not penetrate the 76-mm domestic cannon with armor-piercing shells (ZIS-3 and F-34).
10. American 76-mm armor-piercing shells pierce the side plates of the Tigr-B tank from 1,5-2 times as large as domestic 85-mm armor-piercing shells. "


Here, for fans of the "Royal Tiger", I would like to say that the 122-mm tank gun D-25, mounted on the EC-2 tanks, was a direct descendant of the howitzer A-19. These instruments differed mainly in bolts and some technological features that did not affect the ballistics. Consequently, the armor penetration of both guns was the same. In addition, the BS-100 3-mm field gun and the D-10 tank gun, installed in the SU-100 SAU, also had the same armor penetration.


In a laboratory study of the armor of the Tigr-B tank, conducted at TsNII-48, it was noted that "there was a noticeable gradual decrease in the amount of molybdenum (M) on the German T-VI and TV tanks and the complete absence of T-U1B. M) other (V - vanadium) must obviously be sought in the depletion of the available reserves and losses of the bases supplying Germany with molybdenum.Target-B "armor is characterized by low viscosity. The advantage of domestic armor is, as you know, significantly higher viscosity, German armor less alloyed, but also nachitelno less viscous. "


Here I also want to make a comment. More viscous armor gives fewer secondary fragments during penetration, moreover, such armor has less chance of cracking.

During the test, the German KwK 43 tank gun showed good results in armor penetration and accuracy: almost the same as the Soviet 122-mm D-25 cannon of the IS-2 tank.

Thus, at a distance in 1000 m, the following deviations of projectile hits from the aiming point were obtained: 260 mm vertically and 210 mm horizontally. For comparison, in the D-25 cannon of the IS-2 tank, the average deflection of projectiles from the aiming point when firing from a place at a distance of 1000 m vertically did not exceed 170 mm, and horizontally - 270 mm.

Armor penetration 88-mm KwK 43 cannon with a barrel length 71 caliber, with an initial speed of an armor-piercing projectile 1000 m / s at a distance 1000 m was 165 mm at an angle of 30 meeting. In particular, the tower of its "brother" "Tigr-B" broke through a distance from a range of 400 m. But by the power of the high-explosive action of 88-mm projectile inferior to 1,39 times 122-mm high-explosive fragmentation projectile.

The final report of 16 February 1945 of the year on testing "Tigra-B" said:


"Frontal armor of the hull and turret of poor quality. If there are non-through lesions (dents), the armor forms through cracks and large spalls on the back side. The side plates are sharply unequal compared to the frontal ones and are the most vulnerable part of the armored hull and turret of the tank.

Disadvantages:
Chassis complex and short-lived.
The turning mechanism is complex and expensive.
Onboard transmission - extremely unreliable.
Power reserve is inferior to IP on 25%.
Inconvenient placement of ammunition (except for the niche of the tower).
The excessive size and weight of the tank does not match the armor protection and firepower of the tank. "









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94 comments
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  1. AK-74-1
    AK-74-1 5 June 2012 08: 47 New
    +5
    Good, informative article. IS-2 "taxis".
  2. kotdavin4i
    kotdavin4i 5 June 2012 09: 15 New
    20
    The end of the war - Germany is exhausted, the quality of the armor decreases every day, the amount of equipment produced does not make up for the loss. haste in the release of technology. "Raw" is allowed on the conveyor.
    1. Voodoo
      Voodoo 5 June 2012 14: 40 New
      +7
      Plus, in full swing working at the factories, prisoners (prisoners) “drive” the marriage and commit acts of sabotage, which at times worsens the quality.
    2. Mut Anthony
      Mut Anthony 5 June 2012 23: 17 New
      +4
      Obviously, this is a desperate attempt by the Germans to make up for the lack of heavy tanks and at least somehow stop the clouds of Soviet tanks going to Berlin
  3. Krilion
    Krilion 5 June 2012 09: 55 New
    +4
    the Germans stubbornly continued to smear their tanks with “zimmerit” ... well, at least not with mustard ...
  4. itr
    itr 5 June 2012 10: 13 New
    +4
    Very interesting
  5. Panzer UA
    Panzer UA 5 June 2012 10: 56 New
    +2
    But beautiful smile , And of course, the best tank of the 2world IS-2
    1. Mut Anthony
      Mut Anthony 5 June 2012 23: 24 New
      +1
      Oh, some awkward, simple Tiger or Ferdinand looks more powerful, more formidable, more beautiful and more solid.
      1. lotus04
        lotus04 7 June 2012 04: 13 New
        +2
        Quote: Panzer UA
        But beautiful


        Yah! Compared to ours, ur-od.
  6. laurbalaur
    laurbalaur 5 June 2012 11: 41 New
    +3
    Panzer UA, you specify the heavy tank of the 2nd world! the best were medium tanks T-34 and T-lV.
    1. Priboi
      Priboi 5 June 2012 22: 55 New
      +1
      Dear laurbalaur, please tell me how the T-34 and T-lV were better than the IS-2?
  7. revnagan
    revnagan 5 June 2012 11: 48 New
    +3
    The article was partially reprinted from the journal Technika-youtha. For a year and a month now I won’t say for sure, I’ll go dig, I’ll find a binder, then I’ll clarify. Well, somewhere in the mid-to-late 80s ...
    1. Splin
      Splin 5 June 2012 12: 02 New
      +5
      I also had the feeling ... One criticism. In the comments they write Is-2 rules. And someone tried to put a 122 mm shell in a cannon. Then in Gvozdik you get sick of charging. And she stands still. there is also a rammer. And imagine a pig weighing 25 kg - on the go put in a cramped tower then a sleeve with the same weight, then stop aiming and shoot. What are the three standard shots! At least one in a minute. So, apart from the Su-100, no one could fight him.
      1. Kars
        5 June 2012 12: 30 New
        +9
        Quote: Splin
        So besides Su-100, no one could fight him


        Three tank MAIN? Fire. Armor. Maneuver.
        The CT was very weak with maneuver. If there was no flattery in the forehead, then there were a lot of things that fought with him without forgetting the hull artillery.

        The IS-2 certainly steers but only as an assault tank.
        She wants to recall ISU-122, too, could make an argument.
        It is interesting what would happen if you put the unit on it
        1. Splin
          Splin 5 June 2012 12: 59 New
          +1
          We are here with Kars sometimes we argue about the Tiger. If it was considered a breakthrough tank, the Tiger-2 was already being created as a tank destroyer. Therefore, he faced little with our defense. More he "sat in the trenches" And the T-34-85 gun was useless against him. So either the SU-100 or the attack aircraft. Of course, you can cover with artillery. but this is not 100% hit rate and not rational use of ammunition.
        2. Splin
          Splin 5 June 2012 14: 08 New
          +3
          She wants to remember ISU-122, too, could make an argument

          About ISU. An old ensign who served as a soldier in ISU-60 in the 122s served in our regiment. He told everyone that Carnation is a palass number compared to the ISU. He speaks. we squeaked there when loading, and the regiment commander told them - It’s good for you that after the war they put a rammer in it ... "
          1. Kars
            5 June 2012 14: 13 New
            +7
            Quote: Splin
            60's started as a soldier on ISU-122


            And my grandfather was charging on ISU -122, reached Breslau.
            1. Splin
              Splin 5 June 2012 14: 20 New
              +6
              Glory to him and everyone who defended our homeland! But the fact remains. She could fight, but not in a duel. True, because she crawled more slowly than Is. it was possible to shoot from it on the move. Transsmissia stood.
              1. Kars
                5 June 2012 14: 35 New
                +5
                Quote: Splin
                She could fight, but not in a duel

                And he told me that they only shot at the tank twice. And they also shot them down twice and both times fired a cannon at the side. Once stood for two hours, the second time went the next day.
                So war is not a duel, even though the Germans would like it.
                1. Splin
                  Splin 5 June 2012 14: 40 New
                  +3
                  It seems that there were many such direct battle tanks as in Prokhorovka, only much more modest in scale? Especially when we went west.
                  1. Kars
                    5 June 2012 14: 53 New
                    +3
                    Not especially, ours at least somehow took into account the experience of Prokhorovka. Yes, and the Germans used ambushes more --- not even talking about the fact that tanks in the Wehrmacht were replaced by self-propelled guns. An excellent and large-scale example is Balaton.
        3. erased
          erased 6 June 2012 17: 08 New
          +1
          On the IS-2 and on the ISU-122 were the same guns, analog A-19.
          1. Kibb
            Kibb 6 June 2012 17: 28 New
            0
            Quote: erased
            On the IS-2 and on the ISU-122 were the same guns, analog A-19.

            On ISU-122 A19 and stood. D25S on ISU-122S
      2. Georg iv
        Georg iv 5 June 2012 16: 48 New
        +1
        Of course, "on the go" I can’t say. But just lifting and moving came out like normal. Although I have a "Kachkovsky" experience. After half a year, I pulled pancakes with a bang of 25 kg in the hall :)
        1. Splin
          Splin 5 June 2012 18: 36 New
          +4
          I had one fighter in the platoon for the first year of service in the troops. Goner. Weighing just over an Acacia shell. And most importantly, he didn’t know a damn thing. I had to put into account 2C1-charging. His grandfathers so coached for six months, that his mother did not recognize at the checkpoint. Such a frame has become!
      3. Kibb
        Kibb 5 June 2012 18: 42 New
        +2
        Quote: Splin
        One criticism

        Well, what can I say good things about CT? In addition to the notorious “gloomy Teutonic genius” (I propose to write with the abbreviation “STG”, I stopped to write a hundred times) I cannot see the prerequisites for its creation. 88 \ 56 completely coped with any tank of the allies until the end of the war, booking a "tiger" is also quite, in any case, with some strengthening of the reservation, he would not have become less mobile than the CT ...
        1. Splin
          Splin 5 June 2012 19: 03 New
          +1
          Look at the right angles of the Tiger. All tank guns of that time coped with it. We needed angles like on the Panther. So they made this fool. But the gun remained the same. only the barrel lengthened.
          1. Kars
            5 June 2012 19: 07 New
            +1
            Quote: Splin
            All tank guns of that time coped with it.


            Well, all this is said loudly, and from what distance. On Alt history, such an option was offered.
            1. Splin
              Splin 5 June 2012 19: 19 New
              +3
              I do not think that the gasoline engine is rational to stick in the front projection. The self-propelled guns Ferdinand, the armor was steeper, and the cannon as on the Royal Tiger, but the tower did not turn. It’s better to create a self-propelled gun on the basis of the Tiger, because it was the most reliable German tank in the second half of the war. And in general, what are we discussing. It’s good that they broke. First place is ours!
              1. Kars
                5 June 2012 20: 11 New
                0
                Quote: Splin
                that the gasoline engine rationally stick in the front projection

                Who cares?
                Quote: Splin
                First place is ours!

                on points
                1. Splin
                  Splin 5 June 2012 20: 18 New
                  0
                  Who cares?

                  I did not understand what is the difference in the type of engine or in its location?

                  on points

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39IvttDunjw посмотри видео-поймешь
                  1. Kars
                    5 June 2012 20: 23 New
                    0
                    Quote: Splin
                    in engine type

                    And the front arrangement of the cordon is excluded - the height and weight are reduced.
              2. datur
                datur 6 June 2012 20: 55 New
                0
                Splin, Duc, it seems like there was such a beast - the yagdtiger was called? wink
                1. Splin
                  Splin 6 June 2012 22: 12 New
                  0

                  Based on the Royal, the same unreliable car
                  1. Klibanophoros
                    Klibanophoros 6 June 2012 23: 06 New
                    0
                    But the record holder - on the Western Front, shot several Shermans from a distance of 5 km.
                    So it could be armor and sickle over time, but the optics remained unattainable for the allies.
              3. Alf
                Alf 6 June 2012 23: 47 New
                0
                And I thought the Four was the most reliable.
          2. Kibb
            Kibb 5 June 2012 19: 50 New
            +1
            Quote: Splin
            All tank guns of that time coped with it.

            Did you cope? And the distance? F34, for example, did not take it point blank. The tiger became a nightmare for tankers of all allied countries. CT did not receive such an honor
            Quote: Splin
            Look at the right angles of the Tiger

            The advantages of inclined armor are usually exaggerated, German shells in any case returned to normal when hit
            Quote: Splin
            But the gun remained the same. only the barrel lengthened

            The main premise was to stick the L70, it did not climb into the Tiger
            1. Splin
              Splin 5 June 2012 20: 06 New
              0
              Inclined armor is effective in relation to caliber ratio for caliber and projectile speed. Those. The 50 mm anti-tank is already capable of fighting the T-34. And about tank guns. We are talking about the second half of the war. And this is an 85 mm Soviet 17-pound British and a long-barrel 76 mm American. All of them were capable of hitting the Tiger in the forehead at a distance of a kilometer.
              And about the length of the gun, this applies to an alternative drawing ...
              1. Kars
                5 June 2012 20: 16 New
                0
                Quote: Splin
                And this is the 85-mm Soviet 17-pound British and the long-barrel 76-mm American. All of them were able to hit the Tiger in the forehead at a distance of a kilometer.

                And their tiger 1.5 km

                Yes, and despite the claimed armor penetration - even penetration was not always achieved, but when penetrated, the tank was not necessarily damaged.
              2. Kibb
                Kibb 5 June 2012 20: 30 New
                +1
                Quote: Splin
                All of them were capable of hitting the Tiger in the forehead at a distance of a kilometer.

                For BR365, tabular penetration at 0 "-100 mm at 60" is 83 mm. Since at 1000 meters a normal hit is practically impossible, it should be recognized that 85mm were effective with a caliber projectile from only 500 meters against the Tiger's forehead. The same goes for the 76 mm American gun
                17 pounds yes, it was quite effective, but when and how many were there
                1. Splin
                  Splin 5 June 2012 20: 50 New
                  0
                  For BR365 tabular permeability at

                  I will not argue. We are this. cheers, we know only in theory. And the memory of veterans ... The older they become, the greater their contribution to defense. Over there, the Americans generally beat down Discovery over ten Japanese in the Pacific or five Soviet MiGs in Korea.
                  1. Kibb
                    Kibb 5 June 2012 21: 25 New
                    0
                    Quote: Splin
                    And the memory of veterans ... The older they get

                    Well, you yourself understand ...
                    Quote: Splin
                    Over there, the Americans generally beat down Discovery over ten Japanese in the Pacific or five Soviet MiGs in Korea.

                    No one forbade money to cook. We also have a decent answer - "Shock Force"
                    1. datur
                      datur 6 June 2012 21: 00 New
                      0
                      Kibb,
                      No one forbade money to cook. We also have a decent answer - "Shock Force" - not well, ours will be even more honest !!!! repeat nobody can compare with Americans in pisd wink ........... e !!!!!!!
                      1. Kibb
                        Kibb 6 June 2012 23: 45 New
                        -1
                        Quote: datur
                        not well, ours will be even more honest !!!!

                        Yes, too, did you know sometimes this is bent. Either Rakov sank an armadillo sank, then our pilots in China, a Japanese aircraft carrier ... finally became disillusioned with the US when I heard the story of the horror story about BT about dumping tracks and autobahns
          3. Alf
            Alf 6 June 2012 23: 46 New
            0
            Not only shells are not interchangeable.
    2. Kibb
      Kibb 5 June 2012 15: 23 New
      +1
      Quote: revnagan
      from the journal "Youth Technology

      "Tankmaster" No. 6 1999 - it is indicated there, maybe even earlier where it was. The first time I read it was 5-6 years ago at Battlefield http://www.battlefield.ru/was-tiger-really-king/stranitsa-2.html
  8. warrior
    warrior 5 June 2012 12: 18 New
    -1
    This article opened my eyes.
    Usually, I considered Soviet TPs of 100mm and 122mm caliber dominant compared to German 7.5cm and 8.8cm. It turns out that this is not entirely true. If 122 mm TP is equivalent in resistance to 88 German, then here we must recognize the technological superiority of the Germans. In combination with good German optics, this makes the Tiger series tanks very dangerous at distances of 1 km or more.
    The inability of Soviet cannons of all types to penetrate the frontal profile of the Tiger hull at distances of 500m and above is also very alarming. Bearing in mind Soviet optics, I think getting into towers with distances of 1-1.5 km is practically an exception.
    Particularly struck by the domination is an order of magnitude higher than the 76mm TP of the USA over the 85mm of the Soviet Union. Is the author sure this is true?
    1. Kars
      5 June 2012 12: 39 New
      0
      Quote: warrior
      If 122 mm TP is equivalent to German 88 in terms of armor resistance, then the technological excellence of the Germans must be recognized. In combination with good German optics, this makes the Tiger series tanks very dangerous at 1 km and above



      Let’s say together - THANKS TO TUCHACHEVSKY.
      Quote: warrior
      Particularly struck by the domination is an order of magnitude higher than the 76mm TP of the USA over the 85mm of the Soviet Union. Is the author sure this is true?

      The report is from Kubinka, and the source is indicated.
      Quote: warrior
      The inability of the Soviet cannons of all types to penetrate the frontal profile of the Tiger hull at 500 distances is also very alarming.

      And who could?
      1. warrior
        warrior 5 June 2012 13: 49 New
        0
        And here Tukhachevsky. Did he design TP?

        If according to the report of the meals, you are right.

        American M36 tank destroyer and M26 tank with 90mmMZ TP and 90mm HVAP T30E16 projectile. According to documents, up to 10 frontal hits from the Tiger's incapacitation. Not a lot, but still the answer to your question.
        1. Kars
          5 June 2012 14: 07 New
          +1
          Quote: warrior
          And here Tukhachevsky. Did he design TP?


          He dispersed the artillery design bureau, and insisted on the universality of certain qualities, he flogged anti-aircraft artillery.
          Quote: warrior
          American tank destroyer M36 and tank M26 with TP 90mmMZ and projectile 90-mm HVAP T30E16
          This is not true.
          Pershing was used singly, and the mentioned sub-caliber did not approach Slagher.
          with the same success can introduce into discussion T-34-100
          Quote: warrior
          According to documents up to 10 of frontal hits from the Tiger incapacitation.

          What documents and which tiger. And it’s just interesting who will be able to fire ten shots into the forehead of a CT or even a simple Tiger, and not shoot up until its 3 shot.
          1. warrior
            warrior 5 June 2012 14: 37 New
            -2
            You are a strange person, Andrey, Ukraine to ask for NATO, but you have learned the maternal part of the Alliance. laughing
            The 90 mm HVAP T30E16 crawled on the M36 Masovo. How do I know that? - from there -http: //www.lonesentry.com/manuals/90-mm-ammunition/index.html
            This is a report of the use of a projectile on both platforms with a panther feed.

            The Americans claim (google, there is info) that for both platforms in Europe, 10 Tigers of various modifications were hit on the Western Front by hitting the frontal profile. I don’t know the statistics of hits on the hull / tower.
            1. Kars
              5 June 2012 15: 41 New
              0
              http://vn-parabellum.com/us/m26_bat.html
              perching
              Quote: warrior
              T30E16 crawled on the M36 masovo

              http://vn-parabellum.com/us/m3-gun-data.html
              The mention of tungsten carbide deficiency is also particularly noteworthy.
              I am also embarrassed by such a phrase --- It will pierce the upper frontal sheet of the Panther with 450 yards, and the King Tiger with 100 yards
              Quote: warrior
              10 Tigers of different modifications knocked down on the Western Front by hitting in the frontal profile

              Which? The parabelum describes fighting with tigers.
              google is not interesting you can link.
      2. Kibb
        Kibb 5 June 2012 14: 19 New
        0
        Quote: Kars
        Let’s say together - THANKS TO TUCHACHEVSKY.

        Andrei, he has nothing to do with it. With 85 BM and then there were difficulties. The problem is of a technological nature. Traditionally, we were taken with external ballistics, with the Germans internal. Well, the design and quality of the shells, too
        1. Kars
          5 June 2012 14: 22 New
          +1
          Quote: Kibb
          Andrei, he has nothing to do with it

          Don’t tell, his actions led to a lag in the artillery in all categories. TEMP, TIME, WORKS. And therefore, the 85 mm anti-tank battle of the USSR was received in 1945.
          1. Kibb
            Kibb 5 June 2012 15: 04 New
            +1
            Quote: Kars
            led to a lag in artillery in all categories.

            Naturally, only the binding to caliber 76.2 and, most importantly, to the sleeve is clearly traced here. - As a result, they started work on large calibers in the division artillery late. Because there was no backlog on PTP ---
            Quote: Kars
            TEMP, TIME, OPERATIONS

            Quote: Kars
            USSR anti-tank gun received in 1945

            Still later. If you are about D44 then it is divisional
            1. Splin
              Splin 5 June 2012 15: 18 New
              0
              And what kind of cannon of caliber 85 did we adopt after the D-44? It was a swan song of divisional cannons. But she had a large range of ammunition. I saw cumulative. and they do not need high speed, as you know.
              1. Kibb
                Kibb 5 June 2012 16: 10 New
                +2
                Quote: Splin
                It was a swan song of divisional cannons.

                Divisional yes
                Quote: Splin
                85 caliber gun we adopted after D-44

                D48
                1. Splin
                  Splin 5 June 2012 16: 32 New
                  +1
                  D48

                  It turns out they released less than less. That's what I did not see them. Artillery cadets came to us for an internship. They shot from everything that was in the park. We even had a BS-3. And these were fewer than a thousand pieces.
                  1. Kibb
                    Kibb 5 June 2012 16: 47 New
                    0
                    Quote: Splin
                    It turns out they released less than less

                    Wow, in the mid-50s there was already little use for it. Then they put Rapier on her carriage
            2. Kars
              5 June 2012 15: 26 New
              0
              Quote: Kibb
              If you are about D44 then it is divisional

              At first it was like PTP, then it was re-established
              Quote: Kibb
              binding to the caliber 76.2 and most importantly to the sleeve

              Grabin F-30 in 1939 did. There is certainly nothing to do with Tukhachevsky. But his pernicious influence is felt.
              Here, the lag in the anti-aircraft artillery is more influenced, we even got ahead of time with the ZIS-2. But when the Germans demanded powerful anti-aircraft guns, they had 88 mm anti-aircraft guns, which they reworked, and for the most part we had a drill-down to 85 mm, a German clone --76mm Xnumx
              1. Kibb
                Kibb 5 June 2012 16: 19 New
                0
                85 mm - half measure, which appeared as a result of "clone drilled up to 85 mm obr1931"
                Even then they proved that it is necessary to switch to 95mm - the Grabinsky duplex F28 / F25 could become a masterpiece
                Quote: Kars
                At first it was like PTP, then it was re-established

                In terms of power for 45 years, she did not pull at the PTP in any case
    2. Igarr
      Igarr 5 June 2012 12: 42 New
      0
      Funny, you, my friend.
      The article opened ... eyes. Yes?
      And the results of the Second World War - did not open your eyes?

      The order is greater, the order is less.
      Our soldiers did not bother and do not bother ... in order.
      They’ll just break it, do not spoil it at all.
      And the whole order.

      "The Shadowy Teutonic Genius" - no one argues. The Germans were great in terms of technology.
      Here in terms of victories - let us down.
      Two wars valiantly prosral - in the 20th century.
      And this is the result. Brilliant, I would say, result. Gloomy, only.
    3. philosopher
      philosopher 5 June 2012 19: 34 New
      +2
      Allow me, my friend, to disagree.
      Take two arsystems: ZIS-2 and ZIS-3. They are 90% unified, but one barrel is longer and smaller in caliber, while the other has shorter and larger caliber. Is this, in your opinion, the superiority of one design idea over the second?
      In no way, it is, simply, their specialization is different. So do the tanks. Ours used a more universal caliber in the sense of destructive action for various purposes, and the Germans decided to stick only against our tanks and put, say, a purely anti-tank gun.
      And no need to worry about armor penetration. In principle, the ISU always had enough of his guns. Often, if the armor of the tower did not give in, then the shell simply tore the tower off the German.
      However, the ISU-152 was also in reserve. She was called "St. John's wort" in common people.
      1. datur
        datur 6 June 2012 21: 10 New
        0
        philosopherHowever, ISU-152 was also in reserve. She was called "St. John's wort" in common people .---- what yes so yes !!!!! wink 44 kilogram suitcase from St. John's wort and all alles nicht kaputten !!!! belay and do not care ISU -152 it was that a tiger or a very royal tiger was against him, all the same, all of them were kaput !!!!! yes
        1. Kars
          6 June 2012 21: 15 New
          0
          Quote: datur
          44 kilogram suitcase from St. John's wort and all alles nicht kaputten !!!!


          Third photo from the bottom.
    4. datur
      datur 6 June 2012 21: 03 New
      -1
      warrior,
      The inability of Soviet cannons of all types to penetrate the frontal profile of the Tiger corps at distances of 500m and above is also very alarming .--- so, after all, no Allied tanks pierced tigers in the forehead from this distance !!!!! wink
  9. as2604
    as2604 5 June 2012 12: 21 New
    +1
    Yes, the best tank of World War 2 without a doubt the T-34 and its modifications. In addition, no matter how good the Tigers and Royal Tigers are, they released very few and did not greatly affect the course of the war
    1. Astrey
      Astrey 5 June 2012 20: 30 New
      0
      Quote: as2604
      the best tank of World War 2 without a doubt the T-34 and its modifications


      I'd love to agree with you. Only there are a hundred buts. Large and not very. Unconditional indicators, they exist only in arithmetic, and war is a theory of operations. Arithmetic in it is only in the ratio "price - quality" of the evaluated object. Everything else, including combat effectiveness, goes beyond the wounds of a simple TTX comparison. After reading this article, I began to believe that the combination of "best tank" in isolation from the context carries a maximum ideological burden.
  10. Owl
    Owl 5 June 2012 12: 23 New
    +7
    Despite the shortcomings of the Pz Kpfw Tiger Ausf B tank described in the article, you understand that Lieutenant Oskin (the tank platoon commander who destroyed the first Royal Tigers from the ambush) became the Hero of the Soviet Union precisely for the Feat.
  11. 8 company
    8 company 5 June 2012 12: 27 New
    +2
    70 tons of weight, you won’t get enough fuel, the reliability of the mechanisms is low ... It’s not a tank, but ..that is. At the end of the war, the Germans clearly went off the roof.
    1. Dub4ik
      Dub4ik 5 June 2012 13: 53 New
      0
      In a hurry, they came up with many projects, but they did not have enough time and resources to bring them to mind. These tanks were not even really tested, they were immediately sent to battle, although they broke down along the way.
      1. Alf
        Alf 5 June 2012 17: 29 New
        0
        And who made them conceive so many projects at the same time?
  12. Vadzja
    Vadzja 5 June 2012 14: 12 New
    +2
    Thanks to the author for interesting material.
  13. 13017
    13017 5 June 2012 18: 19 New
    +1
    Thank God that the Germans at the end of the war did not have enough time and resources. Their 45th is our 41st, but we survived.
  14. sw0i
    sw0i 5 June 2012 18: 28 New
    -2
    Quote: Kibb
    Andrei, he has nothing to do with it. With 85 BM and then there were difficulties. The problem is of a technological nature. Traditionally, we were taken with external ballistics, with the Germans internal. Well, the design and quality of the shells, too


    The high characteristics of the German guns are due to the fact that they used the so-called conical trunks. Before the war in the USSR, research work was carried out on conical trunks, but at that time there was no success, their survivability was several dozen shots.
    1. Kibb
      Kibb 5 June 2012 18: 48 New
      +1
      Quote: sw0i
      High performance of German guns, due to the fact that they used the so-called conical trunks

      So, straight and on all guns, are conical trunks?
      1. sw0i
        sw0i 6 June 2012 18: 15 New
        0
        I confessed. repeat
        and why I dragged them to court
    2. loft79
      loft79 5 June 2012 22: 03 New
      +1
      What guns? Which tanks?
      There have been attempts to introduce conical trunks, but as far as I know, all are unsuccessful.
  15. philosopher
    philosopher 5 June 2012 19: 45 New
    +2
    And I saw live IS-3 and T-10. What an amazing, beautiful beauty of the car! Only you need to look at them not from below, like a monument, but when you stand near them or walk around ...
    I think that the IS-3 is a Stalinist argument against the Royal Tiger. Although, in principle, he was not needed. Like the T-44. Here it is, of course, the best tank of World War II. T-44 is brought to absolute perfection, "thirty-four." Although he did not have time to fight.
  16. Chicot 1
    Chicot 1 5 June 2012 20: 13 New
    +5
    I met a statement that German tankers preferred the first Tiger to the Royal Tiger ... After reading the article, I understand that these statements had solid ground and well-founded grounds ...
    Thanks to the author. The material is interesting and informative. Plus with pleasure ...

    And for lovers of tank art - a picture of the famous British artist Nicolas Trudgian (Nicolas Trudgian) "Ardennes" ("Ardennes") ... The finest hour of the "Royal Tiger" ...
    1. Kars
      5 June 2012 20: 24 New
      +5
      I have one from the artist Mariusz Kozik
      1. Chicot 1
        Chicot 1 5 June 2012 21: 22 New
        +2
        A good thing. good I liked ...
        And from me there is one more wallpaper with the “Royal” ... Unfortunately, I do not know the name of the ator for certain. But I suspect in style that this is also Trudgian. Well, or imitation ...
        1. Kars
          5 June 2012 21: 25 New
          +1
          Through a search, Kozik has a good site - many beautiful pictures
          Off topic of course - but beautiful.
          1. datur
            datur 6 June 2012 21: 17 New
            +1
            Kars, our winged these winged hussars in the year of commercials so 1612 !!!! wink yes laughing Yes, and Ukrainian Cossacks wink groans inserted !!!!!
            1. Kars
              6 June 2012 21: 21 New
              +1
              But beautiful.
              1. Chicot 1
                Chicot 1 7 June 2012 15: 43 New
                +1
                I looked fluently. Really a master. I noticed one interesting detail, so to speak - his ridge - thoroughly and jubilantly draws a mirror image on metal surfaces ... This gives his work some peculiar zest ... smile
        2. Kars
          21 January 2016 12: 23 New
          +1
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          1. Kars
            23 January 2016 15: 47 New
            +1
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            1. Kars
              23 January 2016 16: 13 New
              +1
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              1. Kars
                24 January 2016 13: 20 New
                +1
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              2. Kars
                24 January 2016 15: 20 New
                +1
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                1. Kars
                  24 January 2016 22: 31 New
                  +1
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            2. Kars
              23 January 2016 17: 06 New
              +1
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              1. Kars
                29 January 2016 12: 31 New
                +1
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        3. Kars
          21 January 2016 12: 31 New
          +1
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          1. Kars
            21 January 2016 13: 16 New
            +1
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            1. Kars
              21 January 2016 14: 19 New
              +1
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              1. Kars
                21 January 2016 18: 37 New
                +1
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                1. Kars
                  22 January 2016 11: 46 New
                  +1
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          2. Kars
            22 January 2016 22: 12 New
            +1
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          3. Kars
            23 January 2016 15: 02 New
            +1
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  17. Chicot 1
    Chicot 1 5 June 2012 22: 16 New
    +2
    Yes, really a great thing! good Will have to visit. So to speak, get acquainted with creativity ... smile wink
    And this is my recent acquisition - the early Dietz. Kag-be not with the Tiger, but with the tanks ... smile bully
    1. loft79
      loft79 11 June 2012 15: 56 New
      +1
      And we will give them this)))

      http://www.render.ru/gallery/show_work.php?work_id=80547&gal_rub=1&gal_add=discu
      ss # work
      1. loft79
        loft79 11 June 2012 16: 06 New
        +1
        Well Mlyn or this

        http://www.render.ru/gallery/show_work.php?work_id=76219&gal_rub=1&gal_add=discu
        ss # work
      2. Antistaks
        Antistaks 5 November 2012 13: 51 New
        0
        The worst weapon on the starboard side is attached.
  18. karmin
    karmin 5 June 2012 22: 37 New
    0
    Quote: warrior
    The inability of Soviet cannons of all types to penetrate the frontal profile of the Tiger hull at distances of 500m and above is also very alarming.

    Voynik, read the article carefully:
    Quote: Kars
    . Armor-piercing shells of the BS-3 (100 mm) and A-19 (122 mm) guns penetrate through the frontal sheet of the Tiger-B tank turret at distances of 1000-1500 m.

    The experience of battles, in particular on the Kursk Bulge, showed that most of the hits fall in the frontal part of the tower

    Now, if on the IS-2 instead of the D-25, a D-10 gun were installed, with its higher rate of fire, it would become the strongest tank of the Second World War.

    Quote: Kars
    It is interesting what would happen if you put the unit on it

    Nothing would have happened. The D-25 gun on the ISU-122 had excellent armor penetration, its main drawback is its low rate of fire, This unit did not exceed the D-25 in rate of fire. So to say, from a change in terms of terms, the amount does not change.
    1. Kibb
      Kibb 6 June 2012 00: 22 New
      0
      Quote: karmin
      Now, if on the IS-2 instead of the D-25, a D-10 gun were installed, with its higher rate of fire, it would become the strongest tank of the Second World War.

      A fairly common mistake, the special advantages of the 100mm ISU gun recently
      1. There was no armor-piercing shells before the fall 44
      2. Table armored penetration leash for a couple of percent comes 122mm
      3.Real penetration in late German tanks is higher at 122 mm
      4. The rate of fire is really higher only when shooting from a place, on the move a long shot is impossible to charge
      5. The ammunition is difficult to rationally place because of the long unitaries
      6. The 122 HE mine is significantly more powerful
      In short, another tank was needed under 100mm and it appeared -T54
      1. Alf
        Alf 6 June 2012 23: 58 New
        +1
        BK at the IS-2-28 rounds, the experienced IS-2 with D-10 29 rounds. There is no difference.
    2. warrior
      warrior 6 June 2012 08: 25 New
      0
      I did not understand what claims to my humble interpretations, Carmen.
      The report of the editions of Vol. 3 and Vol. 4 clearly states that the profile of the Tiger II hull (two armor plates - the upper and lower, unlike the Tiger II where there are three of them) is NOT pass-through from hitting artillery systems 100mm and higher. With 3-4 hits, armor cracks begin, breakdown of units, etc., etc., which leads the car to incapacity. In this case, the distance of fire is not indicated, apparently it does not matter. Through-holes appear only when hit in the seams of the armor plates of the hull at distances of 500-600 m. At the landfill, you can also get into the seams. In a real battle, it’s unlikely. The tower is another matter, you yourself quoted about it.
      About the experience of the Battle of Kursk. In the same Tankmaster itself a report was published on the destroyed tanks of the Germans. If I recall correctly, the destruction of the Tigers and Panthers from the barrel artillery occurs when they hit the side or stern. It seems that the situation with Soviet heavy tanks is identical.
  19. Antibrim
    Antibrim 6 June 2012 00: 33 New
    -1
    metal was good compared to modern. At father’s work, the ships were made of molten tank metal. he was cut off and he is like new! metal rusts now only rustles any. so that our modern industry in peacetime produces metal that is worse than the Germans in wartime.
    And on the topic, if they would have had a hard time launching it at the beginning of the war, each tank has flaws that were eliminated during the war. In 34ke there were no less! And the fact that on these tanks of innovation was a lot of no one cares. simplicity design reliability but the Germans did everything to be comfortable. I think it was not a bad tank, but a little at the wrong time appeared!
    1. Alf
      Alf 7 June 2012 00: 01 New
      +2
      But if our had launched the T-44 and IS-3 in 1941 ... the Germans would have been too bad.
      1. Stas57
        Stas57 7 June 2012 00: 07 New
        +2
        Alf,
        and if Hitler had a nuclear bomb, then we
        yes you never know what if
        even t-xnumx wouldn't save us
        1. M. Peter
          M. Peter 10 June 2012 15: 28 New
          -1
          Quote: Stas57
          and if Hitler had a nuclear bomb, then we

          I do not think that even if Hitler had an atomic bomb, this would help him. It still had to be delivered to Moscow, and even a bombardment would only increase the onslaught and frenzy of our fighters in battles with enemies.
  20. karmin
    karmin 6 June 2012 02: 44 New
    0
    Quote: Kibb
    4. The rate of fire is really higher only when shooting from a place, on the move a long shot is impossible to charge

    And the D-25, when firing from the ground, was inferior in rate of fire to the German,
    Quote: Kibb
    .A mine at 122 is significantly more powerful

    The explosive action of 100mm shells is still higher than that of 88mm
    Quote: Kibb
    . There were no armor-piercing shells until autumn 44

    Well then they come
    Quote: AntiBrim
    . Armor-piercing shells of the BS-3 (100 mm) and A-19 (122 mm) guns penetrate through the frontal sheet of the Tiger-B tank turret at distances of 1000-1500 m.

    Tank duels were conducted at a distance of up to 1000m and here the D-10 more than coped with its duties
    1. Kibb
      Kibb 6 June 2012 12: 14 New
      +1
      Quote: karmin
      And the D-25, when firing from the ground, was inferior in rate of fire to the German,

      So what? Why directly compare Tiger and IP? Did they meet so often in duel duels?
      Quote: karmin
      The explosive action of 100mm shells is still higher than that of 88mm

      And here 88mm if we are talking about 122 vs 100
      Quote: karmin
      Well then they come

      And before that shoot with shrapnel?
      Quote: karmin
      1000m and here the D-10 more than coped with its duties

      IS is not a tank destroyer. It has other tasks other than fighting tanks and here it gives odds to the “tiger”.
  21. Bugor
    Bugor 6 June 2012 12: 14 New
    0
    Guys, are you not interested in reading the tank drivers themselves? I have several German books - Wittmann and others. So, if memory serves, the IS-2, which covered with a second shell, left the duel with a victory. At the same time, if CT opened fire first - Isu was. . It's all about shit optics for sights.
    1. Evrepid
      Evrepid 6 June 2012 15: 05 New
      +2
      Quote: Bugor
      I have several German books - Wittmann, etc.


      I apologize not to Michael Wittmann. Do you mean? When do you think he wrote these books?
      http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%82%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BD,_%D0%9C%
      D0%B8%D1%85%D0%B0%D1%8D%D0%BB%D1%8C

      It seems that there would be no time for him to write, and after August 44th it will be completely impossible
    2. datur
      datur 6 June 2012 21: 24 New
      +3
      Bugor,
      Wittmann and so forth, my friend yes you persecute, the dead do not write memoirs !!! wink and banged him in 1945. , the tramp was certainly talented and lucky, but the propaganda of the user there came up with a lot of things about him !!! yes
      1. Alf
        Alf 7 June 2012 00: 04 New
        +2
        And you compare Zhukov’s memoirs of the first lifetime edition and the ninth, like the name and author are one, but the content is different.
    3. M. Peter
      M. Peter 10 June 2012 15: 30 New
      0
      And indeed, the IS-2 with CT did not meet. Or am I mistaken, but it seems that these monsters show off only on the western front.
  22. Kars
    6 June 2012 15: 01 New
    +3
    The quintessence of tank war.
  23. erased
    erased 6 June 2012 17: 10 New
    0
    In front, the Royal Tiger is somewhat similar to the T-34. Extremely raw car, except for the gun everything is bad.
    If the Germans began work on the tank a year earlier, then it would be the case. But then T-44 and IS-3 could go against them.
  24. tariff
    tariff 6 June 2012 21: 51 New
    0
    Yes, the Germans were just too clever with him.
  25. Bugor
    Bugor 20 July 2012 10: 51 New
    0
    Damn, of course, I talked about Carius, and you hung all the dogs on me. You could have guessed it yourself.
  26. Antistaks
    Antistaks 5 November 2012 13: 55 New
    -1
    With the technologies of that time, any tank weighing more than 32 tons is stupid and haemo-hauled for its own army, regardless of its nationality.
  27. vova1973
    vova1973 3 November 2013 08: 54 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: Splin
    She could fight, but not in a duel

    And he told me that they only shot at the tank twice. And they also shot them down twice and both times fired a cannon at the side. Once stood for two hours, the second time went the next day.
    So war is not a duel, even though the Germans would like it.

    Both sides tried to avoid direct tank clashes.
  28. vova1973
    vova1973 3 November 2013 09: 09 New
    0
    Quote: philosopher
    And I saw live IS-3 and T-10. What an amazing, beautiful beauty of the car! Only you need to look at them not from below, like a monument, but when you stand near them or walk around ...
    I think that the IS-3 is a Stalinist argument against the Royal Tiger. Although, in principle, he was not needed. Like the T-44. Here it is, of course, the best tank of World War II. T-44 is brought to absolute perfection, "thirty-four." Although he did not have time to fight.

    Quote: Georg iv
    Of course, "on the go" I can’t say. But just lifting and moving came out like normal. Although I have a "Kachkovsky" experience. After half a year, I pulled pancakes with a bang of 25 kg in the hall :)

    When he served in the exercises, according to the training plan, the battery was supposed to release a little more than 100 shells per gun per hour (goals were set). When the time came, at such a rate of fire, the calculations fell first, charged all the numbers and drivers except the gunner, then the officers stood up to the calculations, we fell even faster, we could not keep the pace. It is necessary to see the creeping soldiers on fire from fatigue. Shells 25 kg plus a separate charge I no longer remember somewhere around 12-15 kg.
    When I served in the exercises according to the training plan, the battery was supposed to release a little more than 100 shells per hour (goals were set). When the time came, at such a rate of fire, the calculations fell first, charged all the numbers and drivers except the gunner, then the officers stood up to the calculations, we fell even faster, we could not keep the pace. It is necessary to see the creeping soldiers on fire from fatigue.
  29. Kars
    22 September 2014 13: 28 New
    +1
    ____________
    1. Kars
      4 October 2014 10: 53 New
      +2
      ______________________
      1. prosto_rgb
        prosto_rgb April 3 2015 20: 01 New
        0
        Beautiful collection !!!
        Allow me to inquire?
        Yours
        1. Kars
          April 3 2015 20: 10 New
          +2
          __________my.
          1. prosto_rgb
            prosto_rgb April 4 2015 05: 29 New
            0
            Thank you for your reply!
            I express my admiration !!!
            Simply, I collect aircraft models myself, I understand how much work is shown in the photo.
            The only thing is that I do not paint the models, I tried it, but somehow it was not inspired by the results.
      2. vladkavkaz
        vladkavkaz April 3 2015 20: 11 New
        +1
        Kars (6
        I had a companion in the GSVG .. Slava Golovin, he still sawed out masterpieces .. just tanks, beauty ..
        1. DRA-88
          DRA-88 April 3 2015 20: 23 New
          +2
          Quote: vladkavkaz
          .just the tanks, beauty ..

          Here he is tiger
          1. vladkavkaz
            vladkavkaz April 3 2015 20: 31 New
            +1
            DRA-88
            Someone promised to make a photo report from Kubinka. Well and WHERE?))
        2. Kars
          April 3 2015 20: 27 New
          +1
          Well, honestly, I’m far from masterpieces.
          1. vladkavkaz
            vladkavkaz April 3 2015 20: 33 New
            0
            Kars
            as they say, the trouble began, but the fact that Slava was sawing with a shoe knife, a rasp and a skin ... is something with something .. a companion, sometimes he gave him a gift set, so to speak, for the allies from the GDR, he ordered .. (as the rumor said)
  30. prosto_rgb
    prosto_rgb April 3 2015 19: 46 New
    0
    It’s nice to read articles about real-world testing of technology, not holivars like: mm of armor, gun length, and generally gloomy genius.
    Soviet tank builders reached the same the best features in a car that is more than 20 tons lighter.
    And 20 tons is, I tell you, 40% of another IS2.
  31. Kars
    20 January 2016 21: 33 New
    +1
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  32. Kars
    20 January 2016 21: 53 New
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    1. Kars
      25 January 2016 12: 32 New
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        25 January 2016 12: 39 New
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        26 January 2016 08: 40 New
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    2. Kars
      25 January 2016 12: 32 New
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  33. Kars
    28 January 2016 01: 49 New
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    1. Kars
      28 January 2016 02: 07 New
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      1. Kars
        28 January 2016 02: 18 New
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        1. Kars
          28 January 2016 07: 20 New
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          1. Kars
            23 February 2016 17: 58 New
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