Military Review

How Kuban glad ships from the bottom "raised"

55
It is no secret to the fact of the existence of a funny quasi-state on the territory of the modern Krasnodar Territory and Adygea during the Civil War in the form of the Kuban People's Republic (PRC). But, despite the nonsense of the fugitive founders and apologists of this education who settled in North America, this republic was more than nominally “popular”.


The Kuban Council was originally a kind of political party that opposed the October Revolution. Therefore, in September, 1917, in a narrow circle of exclusively “their” comrades, decided to create the Kuban legislative council. Members of this particular “parliament” were appointed from their own membership. Instantly announced the creation of the Kuban Territory, elected chieftain, and in January 1918-th declared independence of the Kuban. The core of the “parliament” pushing such a policy was the so-called “independent supporters” or Ukrainophiles (descendants of Zaporizhzhya Cossacks). For example, such as Nikolai Ryabovol, who was subsequently killed at a hotel in Rostov-on-Don. These individuals simply could not help repeating the fate of short-sighted peasant nationalists from Ukraine (both of that period and the modern period).

How Kuban glad ships from the bottom "raised"

Nikolay Ryabovol

As if the threat from the red was not enough for them, the new authorities of the Kuban for the beginning sowed discord among the Cossacks themselves. For example, the faction of the “Lineans” (the linear Cossacks, whose descendants came from the Don) immediately put a similar policy in the camp of enemies, since Linear advocated a united and indivisible Russia and advocated only the expansion of the rights to self-government.

The so-called “nonresident” peasants who had recently settled in the Kuban, and according to the Hamburg bill, all of the “non-Cossack family” were completely deprived of the right to vote. But the “independentists” were completely forgotten about the proletariat. Of course, the Kuban still remained a strong agricultural region, but on the Black Sea coast, where port cities were actively developing, a powerful proletarian class was forged, which had already proved its weight in the 1905 year by announcing the creation of the Novorossiysk Republic. At that time, in the captured factories of the city, the Novorossiysk workers even created weapon for combat troops of the republic. Also, the proletariat and the “nonresident” in the large regional centers were almost the majority.

Having taken a course on “Ukrainization” (“independent protesters” wanted to translate all educational institutions of Kuban into Ukrainian) in domestic and foreign policy, the latter-day was glad to do everything so that Frankenstein, who had not yet been assembled, was disassembled in parts. The “government” artificially transferred a huge part of the population, if not to the side of the Reds, then to the category of opponents for sure. The question of creating "red" troops from among the inhabitants of Kuban was not in principle. Even many Cossacks already then sensed such “politicians” too “Zaporizhia” stench.

At the beginning of the same 1918, the formation of the Red Guard detachments of Kuban started. They were assisted by units of the 39 Infantry Division, which was part of the 1 Caucasian Army Corps. Back in 1917, the division’s soldiers received news of the brutal oppression of the peasants of the North Caucasus and the Kuban by the Cossacks. The Bolsheviks also contributed to the agitation among the divisions.


Sorokin and Avtonomov (from left to right)

One way or another, the troops marched to Ekaterinodar (Krasnodar), where the Rada abolished itself, and they literally threw Ukrainophiles out of the capital almost without a fight. By the way, Ivan Sorokin (a Kuban Cossack, a former porch) and Alexey Avtonomov (a Don Cossack, served in the rank of cornet in World War I) commanded, by the way.

In general, it was a good time to close the shop, since political confusion in the heads of the Cossacks and the indulgence of overtly discriminatory actions of some “independent supporters” in direct robbery of neighbors from another class, disrupted most of the “patriots” of the PRC. As a result, the majority of the Cossacks simply did not appear to defend the “cradle” of the new state.

But from the north was approaching the Volunteer Army led by Laurel Kornilov. Having stepped on the throat of their own song, the retreating troops were glad they forgot about their orientation towards Ukraine, and a few troops joined the army of Kornilov. As a result, only on the bayonets of the white forces, which didn’t want to think about any PRC, the “independent supporters” returned to Ekaterinodar. At the same time, the storming of the city this time resulted in a long battle, divided into several attempts to seize the capital of the Kuban and deserving a whole book.


Fragment of Avakimyan's painting "Storm of Ekaterinodar"

But this is all a prelude to one funny fact of "communication" are pleased and the command of VSYUR, which remained on the sidelines stories. It is no secret that the relationship between the “independentists” and the White Army became aggravated immediately after the violent stitching together of these ideologically opposing forces. When Anton Ivanovich Denikin became at the helm of the forces of the All-Soviet Union, it was simply unbearable to get along with the White troops.

It is no secret that Denikin treated political “Ukrainians” with undisguised contempt and rejection, Anton Ivanovich hated and opposed any “parade of sovereignty”. To assume that the politicizing Ukrainophiles of the Kuban with a characteristic aroma of settlement Denikin was somehow different, stupid. One of the striking examples of the greedy, as they say in the Kuban, Kugutskaya (an example of bragging and stupidity, coupled with ignorance and fierce greed even to the detriment of oneself), the politicians were glad to try ... to raise the ships and ships of the Black Sea sunken from Novorossiysk fleet.


Anton Denikin

When Denikinites settled in Ekaterinodar and Novorossiysk, the port for them became a strategically important link in the supply chain and, naturally, a base for the future fleet. It was organized by the Marine Department in the capital of Kuban, and Vice-Admiral Gerasimov was appointed Chief Commander of the ports and vessels of the Volunteer Army. The Black Sea fleet was blocked by Germans in the Crimea at that moment, so the White forces began to work out a plan to lift the warships flooded in June of 1918 in Tsemesskaya bay. This task was partly doable. But there was no need to worry about personnel at all - plenty of naval officers fought in the forces of the white forces.

In addition, not only the warships of the Black Sea Fleet were flooded in the bay, but also quite civilian commercial ships used by the fleet as auxiliary for supply, etc., which no one mostly writes about right now. These ships were quite modern and valuable enough to lift them.


In the foreground the destroyer "Kerch" before sinking in 1918

Imagine Anton Ivanovich Denikin’s surprise, to put it mildly, when his headquarters, located at that time in Ekaterinodar, as well as the headquarters of the Ataman of the Kuban Cossack Army, 27 of October 1918 of the year appeared with a letter from Ataman Alexander Petrovich Filimonov. In a letter, Filimonov raised the question "about the possibility of using ships flooded in Novorossiysk, as well as private steamboats (!) Belonging to the subjects of the Allied powers for the needs of the regional government and the Volunteer Army."

One can only assume that at that moment Anton Ivanovich was ghosting. Perhaps a horrible vision, as representatives of Ukrainophiles from Rada come out of the Rada with songs and dances on oxen with bewilderment: “Mikola, and de oar?” One way or another, Denikin continued to study this document.

As it turned out, as early as September, the Kuban government set up a commission from among the engineers of the granary department to determine the possibility of raising sunken ships. According to these engineers, all vessels, except for the battleship sunk at the depth of the 28, lie at the depths of the 8-10 of the sazhen. Therefore, the Kuban people, led by the ataman, believe that “raising ships does not present serious difficulties with the help of those lifting and floating devices that are in the Novorossiysk port”.


Ataman Filimonov

But then came the part that even more interested the general. From the letter: “In view of the great value of steamboats and the benefits that raised and repaired steamboats can bring to the Kuban Territory (apparently, the chieftain did not even dare to remember the republic in a letter to Denikin) and the Volunteer Army, I ask you to allow 6 commercial (!) Steamboats to be lifted Kuban government. These ships were the English “Trevorian” and “Frederica”, the Italian “Generoza” and “Serbia”, the French “Oxyuz”, the Belgian “Elborus”.

Also, the chieftain and Rada offered a very cunning (as it seemed to them) plan for raising the courts without burdening the budget. It was proposed to carry out lifting at the expense of attracted funds from private individuals, and after raising commercial vessels, these are the most private individuals and sold. And only then for the money raised to raise warships. In general, in my humble opinion, the plan was flowing from the very beginning. Unless, of course, it is assumed that she was glad to have been going to raise warships at all, and was not guided by Kugut avarice even at such times.

After all, the proposal itself took into account only the interests of the Kuban Rada, which already actively requisitioned other people's property. Moreover, the sequence of actions that the ataman set out so flowery at first glance shouted that in the end no one was going to lift warships in principle. Rada was aimed only at very expensive commercial vessels, in order, as they say, to lift the “pennies”.


Tanker "Elborus" (will join the fleet of the Union under the name "Valerian Kuybyshev")

First of all, the Kuban government, with all the desire, was not able to even recruit a team, not only on warships, but even on civilian ships. Secondly, the ships, even if they lie at the bottom, were auxiliary ships of the Black Sea Fleet, and for Denikin this is not an empty phrase. Thirdly, the value of flooded only commercial ships was great. For example, the Belgian tanker Elborus at the time was a very modern ship. Even not so long, the Germans in Novorossiysk were eager to raise the Elbrus. Looking ahead, I will inform you that the tanker will be raised in August 1925 by the EPRON expedition and is included in the Soviet civilian fleet.

As a result, Anton Ivanovich gave a categorical refusal to the Kuban government. And in a curious form, giving the following orders to the "Military and Naval Division":

- take measures for the speedy lifting of ships for the Russian fleet;
- Ataman report that the court will be raised by the order of the command of the Volunteer Army to arm the Russian fleet.

Thus, the peasant government of the Ukrainophiles could not put all-Russian money from the sale of the fleet into their purses.

Denikin's order to take action in raising ships began to be implemented. In Novorossiysk, a commission was organized, which included specialists from the Novorossiysk port and the Volunteer Army. However, the military situation has changed. The fleet, which was controlled by the Germans in the Crimea, regained its independence. And to spend scarce funds on a technically complex process did not have such a need.

Some sources claim that only the messenger ship “Pilot”, which was once a small destroyer of the “Dago” type, managed to raise it. However, others believe that this vessel was captured by the Germans in the Crimea, and therefore raised in Novorossiysk could not be. However, this does not change the essence of the entire history of the Kuban “ship lift”.
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  1. Adjutant
    Adjutant 28 November 2018 06: 31
    +7
    Independence, of course, does not lead to good. Probably the consequences of "zaporizhia".
    It was worth consolidating, than so ... Bych and Ryabovol paid, but the political swing in that period, especially in the crucial year of 1919, was not needed at all
    1. Albatroz
      Albatroz 28 November 2018 06: 56
      +5
      Denikin writes a lot about how much power he took the fight against the Kuban Rada. The most odious character even had to hang. Diverse forces no matter how you twist. what could they raise there)
      1. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 28 November 2018 07: 02
        +6
        No one did more to raise the white movement like the Cossacks.)))) And no one did more Cossacks for that. so that the white movement is defeated.))) Not only the Kuban people, but also the Don ones were engaged in nonsense, and I’m not talking about Semenov.
        1. another RUSICH
          another RUSICH 28 November 2018 08: 25
          +1
          Furthermore. These "villagers" are still engaged in nonsense. disguised with a cry "Love!" For any reason
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 28 November 2018 11: 10
        0
        There is no consensus on the execution of Kulabukhov: Pokrovsky’s initiative or with the knowledge of Denikin. We can now assume that Pokrovsky wanted, perhaps, taking a moment, he wanted to remove everyone who was not nice to him
  2. Ham
    Ham 28 November 2018 08: 14
    +1
    Cossacks = svidomye ... how much blood our "salt of the earth" shed - the Red Terror together with the White Terror - this is so, an innocent game of war ...
  3. Hunghuz
    Hunghuz 28 November 2018 08: 55
    +7
    In any Cossacks, there are elements of independence
    Probably only the empire can fully put them at the service of the whole power?
    1. Ham
      Ham 28 November 2018 11: 11
      +5
      Quote: Hunghouse
      Probably only the empire can fully put them at the service of the whole power?

      But how do you imagine this? if we have without class, without class society! and the Cossack is an estate !!! that's why they grappled with the Bolsheviks to death - completely different classes, completely different class interests ...
      Have you read "Quiet Don"? there Cossack separatism in everyday life is described in all its glory!
      1. Hunghuz
        Hunghuz 28 November 2018 11: 49
        +4
        And sovetskaya empire?
        1. Ham
          Ham 28 November 2018 15: 38
          +3
          and under the Soviets, it just didn’t go to them ...
  4. vladcub
    vladcub 28 November 2018 11: 57
    +1
    I do not know how anyone, but I do not like the vulgarity in the presentation of historical events. Can you imagine that Karamzin, Klyuchevsky or Andrey from Chelyabinsk set forth the material in this way?
    The Kuban Rada beat very suspicious tricks with the Ukrainian Rada, and who knows, maybe they wanted to present these vessels to the Ukrainian Rada?
    It is known that Kiev handed over 5 million rifle cartridges and about 50 thousand rounds to the Kuban Rada, and all this is worth it and maybe with Elbrus and wanted to pay off?
    1. Decimam
      Decimam 28 November 2018 12: 02
      +4
      So the article is not about history. The article uses history to kick Ukraine one more time. And it’s not vulgar to write about Ukraine, you know, bad form, it’s not in trend today among "free" historians.
  5. Decimam
    Decimam 28 November 2018 11: 57
    +4
    The concept of a separate "Cossack people" has long roots, and a fairly rich intellectual and political tradition, which is by no means dead today. Therefore, the mockery in the article on this issue is at least out of place.
    This idea became especially relevant during the Civil War, when attempts were made to create on its basis independent states on the territory of the Cossack regions of the Don, Kuban Terek, Transbaikalia and the Far East. So here you can write a whole cycle, like "How Ataman Krasnov Tikhy Don sold the Kaiser to the Kaiser" or "How Ataman Semyonov created the Mongol-Buryat state", but this in no way removes the issue of using Cossack separatism from the agenda.
    And today newspapers and magazines "Kazak" (the successor to "Free Cossacks", France), "Kazakia" "(Germany)," Cossack Unity (France), "Cossack Life" (organ of the Cossack-American People's Union, USA) are published abroad and a number of others.
    Moreover, this is not just a talking shop. In the US law "On enslaved peoples", by the way acting, there are Cossacks.
    It is "Cossacks", the North Caucasus and "Idel-Urala" from this list that are considered not released yet.
  6. Force multiplier
    Force multiplier 28 November 2018 12: 03
    -2
    Cossacks are not an estate. This is a people, an ethnos. And the mentioned ethnopsychological traits of this people have nothing to do with "Ukrainianship", they just manifest themselves in the same way in Ukraine, the Kuban, and the Don
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 28 November 2018 21: 26
      0
      Force Multiplier Cossacks are not an estate.
      "The Cossacks are an ethnic, social and historical group of united Russians, Ukrainians, Kalmyks, Buryats, Bashkirs, Tatars, Evenks, Ossetians, etc.

      Cossacks - (from Türkic: Cossack, Cossack - dodger, free man) - the military estate in Russia.

      Cossacks (Cossacks) are a sub-ethnic group of the Russian people living in the southern steppes of Eastern Europe, in particular, Russia and Kazakhstan, and earlier - Ukraine.

      In a broad sense, the word "Cossack" meant a person belonging to the Cossack estate and state, which included the population of several localities of Russia, who had special rights and obligations. In a narrower sense, the Cossacks are part of the armed forces of the Russian Empire, mainly cavalry and horse artillery, and the word "Cossack" itself means the lower rank of the Cossack troops. "
      1. Force multiplier
        Force multiplier 29 November 2018 12: 55
        -1
        Do not read Wikipedia, read the source
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 29 November 2018 14: 29
          0
          Force Multiplier "Don't read wikipedia, read the original sources"
          One of the oldest Cossack troops is the Ural. Will we discuss it? Do you have infa on it except chatter?))) Let's get on an adult. With censuses, numbers, and so on.)))
          1. Force multiplier
            Force multiplier 29 November 2018 16: 20
            -3
            If you would like to share information about the Ural Cossacks, write, I will listen to you with pleasure. But my comment was that the Cossacks are a people
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 29 November 2018 17: 29
              0
              What is it?))))
              1. Force multiplier
                Force multiplier 29 November 2018 20: 07
                -1
                There is a title that is fully consistent with the content. Read
                1. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak 29 November 2018 21: 51
                  0
                  I see only a picture which is usually used by all sorts of followers of elven stories. The document should have a link to the archive where it came from, name, case number, inventory number, case sheet number. What you presented to me can simply be wiped without going into details. I immediately said let's adult ...)))
                  1. Force multiplier
                    Force multiplier 29 November 2018 22: 57
                    0
                    What. Let's. With the original sources on the topic you are not familiar and close. Judging by your comment here, you have no idea about historical science in general and about source science in particular. What you just wrote is baby talk. Your knowledge of the topic is limited to the Wikipedia article. Nevertheless, you are trying to argue and object. What documents can you provide in support of your point of view? None. And you know it yourself yourself
                    1. Nagaibak
                      Nagaibak 29 November 2018 23: 11
                      0
                      Force Multiplier "You are not familiar and close with the primary sources on the topic."
                      Just do not blame me for something. What school did you graduate from?))) Do you say source study?))) In addition to pictures, do you have anything?))) I'm afraid not. And I used an article from the wiki to get the most gifted alternative but ... I can’t see it.))) I immediately wrote an adult, without snot and down charges.))) What is not clear? No ... they slipped me on and get indignant at my reaction. From empty to empty, we write here to each other. So you would immediately tell me and say no, I don’t have a fig and there’s nothing to argue.
                      1. Force multiplier
                        Force multiplier 30 November 2018 10: 55
                        0
                        Well, I said that you have nothing to say. There is no need to be a seer. It is not clear why you entered into an argument. Do you have a need to demonstrate your ignorance and your low level of education and upbringing?
                      2. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 30 November 2018 13: 18
                        0
                        Force Multiplier "Do you have a need to demonstrate your ignorance and your low level of education and upbringing?"
                        I doubt that you generally understand something in this topic. I suggested discussing the Ural Cossacks as an example. That the Cossacks are not people. You do not own the topic. And I'm to blame))) I entered into a dispute because you confidently stated that they say the primary sources should be read. And why did they put the mura?))) How to react to this?)))) When I pointed out this, you burst into moralizing. Question do you have a historical background? )))) I doubt it.))) Are you from the Taratariites?))) If so, communication with me will leave you lasting impressions for the rest of your life.)))
                      3. Force multiplier
                        Force multiplier 30 November 2018 17: 23
                        0
                        You are now likened to representatives glad of the article, as they considered themselves the most intelligent with the rise of steamboats, although their intent was obvious. And although it may seem to you that this is not so, ignorance is also evident behind your phrases that do not carry any semantic load
                      4. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 30 November 2018 18: 22
                        0
                        Clear. I understand that you are an alternatively gifted person, but still there should be some kind of framework.)))
                      5. Force multiplier
                        Force multiplier 1 December 2018 10: 41
                        0
                        Your attempts to transfer to personalities - well, the mongrel runs out of the gateway and barks loudly, how do you think it is perceived from the outside? Isn't the analogy too complicated for you? Until you give any source that says that the Cossacks are not people, the conversation is pointless. And you won’t bring him
                      6. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 1 December 2018 13: 02
                        0
                        Ek, you wound up.)))) Well, nothing will pass. Look at your pictures and calm down already.))))))
                      7. Force multiplier
                        Force multiplier 1 December 2018 19: 41
                        0
                        If you find the source, write
                      8. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 1 December 2018 20: 40
                        0
                        Ahahah))) The source of what?
                      9. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 1 December 2018 20: 46
                        0
                        I’m waiting for the source from you that the Khazars are Cossacks.)))
                      10. Force multiplier
                        Force multiplier 2 December 2018 13: 18
                        0
                        It has long been published in this thread. You could already find in a search engine what kind of document it is. Moreover, you could already find other primary sources. But you don’t want to admit that your point of view is wrong, and therefore continue to wait for something
                      11. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 2 December 2018 13: 38
                        0
                        Force Multiplie "It was published in this thread a long time ago"
                        Come on.)))
                      12. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 2 December 2018 13: 54
                        0
                        I’m wondering whose lad you will be?))) It is clear that you do not have a historical education. And nationality?)))
                      13. The comment was deleted.
                      14. Force multiplier
                        Force multiplier 2 December 2018 13: 21
                        0
                        The original source confirming your statement that the Cossacks are not a people, O estate, social group, etc.
                      15. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 2 December 2018 13: 41
                        0
                        Force multiplier
                        "The primary source confirming your statement that the Cossacks are not a people, about an estate, a social group, etc."
                        Well at least you do not demand from me the primary source that the Volga flows into the Caspian Sea.)))
                      16. Force multiplier
                        Force multiplier 3 December 2018 02: 09
                        0
                        You demonstrate a degree of infantilism, rare even for those who like the expression "grown-up"
                      17. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 3 December 2018 06: 38
                        0
                        Force Multiplier "You exhibit a degree of infantilism that is rare even for fans of the" grown-up "expression.
                        Yes, it’s better for me to demonstrate the degree of infantilism than to demonstrate how you are a degree of moronism.)))
                      18. Force multiplier
                        Force multiplier 3 December 2018 11: 51
                        0
                        Do you really think that a person with an IQ below 40 is valuable or interesting to me? You are offended by a condescending and neglectful attitude towards you, but instead of showing yourself as a person and a person, you continue your clowning. Keep going
                      19. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 3 December 2018 13: 06
                        0
                        So whose will you be a meager?))))
    2. another RUSICH
      another RUSICH 28 November 2018 22: 36
      +6
      This is not a people! Once it was subethnos
      The Cossacks died with the advent of the Bolsheviks.
      What is the Cossacks now?
      Estate? No. Type of army? No?
      Nation? No!
      Now it’s mummers, often with a low level of intelligence and education
      What kind of crosses on their chest?
      Grandfather ??? And why are these here?
      And why did they get the idea that they are Cossacks? Grandfather was a Cossack? So what?
      My grandfather was a Siberian, am I a Siberian or what ?!
      Idiocy. Will finish the game with these "Cossacks" 20 years will pass and "Kuban independence" will begin
      1. Force multiplier
        Force multiplier 29 November 2018 13: 13
        -3
        It was and is the people, and the people are the antipode of Russia. Cossacks are the Khazars. Because the mummers are ethnic Cossacks. The Cossacks lost their privileges with the arrival of the Bolsheviks, they wear crosses and uniforms undeservedly, here I completely agree with you. (Although there are exceptions, because the Cossacks are used as irregular troops, volunteers, etc. in conflicts in the post-Soviet space). Independence will not begin, but attempts to achieve the broadest autonomy are very likely. Historical experience shows that the Cossacks always ask for a "high hand" (no matter whose - Russian, Polish, Swedish, Turkish, German) in exchange for "rights and freedoms", such a specifically Cossack form of socio-political structure
        1. another RUSICH
          another RUSICH 30 November 2018 19: 54
          +1
          This is not the Khazars. Among the Cossacks there were Russians, Hungarians and Serbs, and even Turks who converted to Orthodoxy.
          If we talk about comprehension of this phenomenon in general, then the closest parallel, similar to the Cossacks, are the pirates who traded in wars and robberies. Like the registered Cossacks deactivating the service of states, there were corsairs at sea
          1. Force multiplier
            Force multiplier 2 December 2018 13: 06
            0
            This is natural, there are no genetically homogeneous ethnic groups. And although each nation has an ethnic core around which it is formed, any nation is a racial and ethnic mixture, the proportions of which are unique for each nation (and if they are similar, we can talk about kindred or "brotherly" nations). Compare the phenotype of the Cossack and the phenotype of the Russian, folk costume, material and spiritual culture, psychology - these are peoples that are very distant from each other. Their only commonality is that both Russians and Cossacks are, for the most part, Orthodox Christians today.
            The thesis that the Cossacks are a part and class of the Russian people appeared in the offices of the RI scientists only in the middle of the XNUMXth century, since it was believed that with the end of the Caucasian War, the Cossacks no longer played a useful role. "Decossackization" is not an invention of the Bolsheviks
            1. another RUSICH
              another RUSICH 2 December 2018 13: 38
              +1
              What nonsense ?! You cannot even closely compare "Russian and Cossack", because this is an oxymoron in principle! It's like comparing the La5 to its left wing spar, or your finger in yourself! The Russian people and the Cossacks have never been separate, and even more so the Cossacks have never been a separate people, like, in fact, the Ukrainians.
              All this together is the Russian people!
              1. Force multiplier
                Force multiplier 3 December 2018 01: 55
                0
                With good intentions ... Writing down all the peoples of Russia in Russians ultimately erodes the ethnos that created the state, and with it the state itself. Another thing is that representatives of all the peoples of the Russian Federation are equal in rights and form one nation - the Russians. Ukrainians are a nation, not a people
                1. another RUSICH
                  another RUSICH 3 December 2018 13: 47
                  0
                  The concept Ukrainian was originally abusive in relation to marginals who saw themselves separately from Russia. In the southern regions, the Russians were called Little Russians. Ukrainian nation has never been and never is. This is an artificially coined term, like the Ukrainian language, which has never been independent and self-sufficient. Stop raving here for Ukrainians and Cossacks
                  1. Force multiplier
                    Force multiplier 3 December 2018 14: 49
                    -1
                    I see that you do not correctly use the terms nation and people. These terms are not identical and Ukrainians are really not people. But Ukrainians are just a nation, and this is the current political reality. USSR - member of the PAН with 1945 years.
                    Your position that everyone without distinction needs to be written in Russian is understandable. It is not clear why you decided that I am a supporter of Ukraine and the Cossacks - I’m just their opponent. Since you raised the topic of Ukraine, a simple example. Why, if both the Russian Federation and Ukraine dominate the Russian ethnic group, are these states so different? And because the share of the same Cossack ethnic group in Ukraine is greater than in the Russian Federation
                    1. another RUSICH
                      another RUSICH 3 December 2018 15: 12
                      +1
                      Nonsense is complete. These terms are just identical, they simply sound from different languages. A nation, a people is determined by a cultural-historical community. Do Cossacks have a cultural community? Maybe you call me at least one Cossack poet, artist, philosopher, architect ...? But what about the Ukrainian scientist, artist, thinker taken separately from the Russian (Soviet) mentality and essence? There are none, because Ukrainians are artificial products.
                      But about the creation and strange existence of the Ukrainian SSR, a separate issue
                      There is not and there was no Ukrainian nation taken separately. The fact that the South Russian culture is slightly different from the northern one does not mean a difference. In the same Norway, there is a strong difference from the northern Norwegians (Finmark) from the southern (Oslo), all the way up to the difference in language, and yet, it does not occur to them to separate each other. Both there and there are Norwegians. Moreover, among them there are many Sami, a separate people who do not identify with the Norwegians.
                      That you confuse everything to the heap: the Cossacks and Ukrainians. Cossacks as a phenomenon ceased to exist as a fact at the beginning of the 20th century.
                      And at the moment, what we see is not Cossacks, in principle, upon the fact of their existence. Theater, circus — yes, Cossacks — no. Because there are no conditions for this, and thank God
                      1. Force multiplier
                        Force multiplier 4 December 2018 16: 10
                        0
                        A nation is a collection of citizens of a state. Or a community within the framework of a state formation (JSC in the USSR or constituent parts of the United Kingdom in Britain). Your example with the Norwegians just shows that the community "Norwegians" are subjects of the Norwegian monarchy, regardless of ethnicity. The Ukrainian nation exists in the same way already after the existence of the Ukrainian state. But yes, there is no such people as "Ukrainians", therefore there is no Ukrainian folk culture. There is no Cossack or Khazaria, there are no regions of Cossack troops, and therefore there is no Cossack nation. But there is a Cossack ethnos. Only this does not mean that the Cossacks must necessarily have outstanding artists and architects. The Bushmen don't have them either, for example. (these are the features of material and spiritual culture that each nation creates). And that is why I also emphasize the importance of the Russian people as a state-forming and kulturtrager and against mixing it with the Cossacks. After all, this confusion of the state-forming qualities of the Russian people will weaken
              2. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 3 December 2018 06: 41
                +1
                another RUSICH
                "What nonsense ?! You can't even closely compare" Russian and Cossack "
                And one should not expect anything else from him ...))) the guy is clearly specific. His next post shows him in all its glory.)))
    3. antivirus
      antivirus 29 November 2018 20: 40
      0
      Gromoboya St. in Ivanovo - see who is that?
  7. Talgarets
    Talgarets 1 December 2018 12: 55
    0
    The photo of Avtonomov is interesting - it is not clear whether the dagger is fastened to it, or is it to the dagger?
  8. Alexander not great
    Alexander not great 2 January 2019 23: 57
    0
    I read in my memoirs about the Cossacks, there was a phrase "not at all Cossacks, they began to look like Russians" it was about Don.