Radiophotonic radar tests started to modify the Su-57

Some time ago, officials in Russia made a statement in which they presented the newest multi-purpose Russian combat aircraft Su-57 as a “platform for the sixth generation”. It was noted that in some respects, the Su-57 already today can be attributed to at least the 5 + generation.

For fighters of a newer generation than the 5, according to the requirements, the use of radio photon radar will be typical. These locators have a high level of efficiency. The efficiency of the radiophotonic radar is estimated at 70%. This is despite the fact that conventional radar stations have an efficiency of not more than 40%. The energy converted into heat ultimately contributes to its negative contribution in the sense that it increases the overall visibility of the combat vehicle. Fundamentally new, radio photon radars are obtained by converting the energy of a coherent beam (from a laser) into microwave radiation by a crystal. Such a radar at the same time has more power, and a smaller percentage of the transition of energy into useless heat in this case.

From media publications it became known that the experimental radar with elements of radiophotonic technology passed the first tests in our country. The radio photon radar made it possible to detect and escort an air target. The developers do not hide that at this stage the locator is “raw”. It has a number of flaws, which, however, are fixable. In particular, work is underway to bring the efficiency up to the planned indicators when using these or other transducer crystals. Also, active work is underway to create so-called photonic boards, where the main role in signal transmission will be played not by electrons, but by light quanta (photons).

Radiophotonic systems are able to "see" more and further used today aviation Radar. The term “more” is used in the sense that the system is capable of monitoring a wider frequency range than is available with modern radars today.

The task is to implement the optimal distribution of radio-photonic radar elements on the body of a combat aircraft.

Earlier it was reported that radio-photon equipment may appear on Russian aircraft in 2020. If the tests really began, then this period does not look fiction.

Comments

[dr.star75]

Do you need a man in the 6th generation?

[ltc35]

Most likely in the sixth generation, both options will be used. With and without a person. The terminology "radio-photonic" itself is interesting in the article. I'll have to do some research on the Internet ...

[Tersky]

Quote: ltc35

The terminology "radio-photonic" itself is interesting in the article. I'll have to do some research on the Internet ...

Here- https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/96305/ in the first comment under the article

"KRET has created an experimental prototype of a photonic radar for a sixth generation fighter"

in fairly accessible language all about radiophoton radar. Study ,

[ltc35]

Thank you! I’ll definitely study it, especially since this topic is close to me.

[Shurik70]

It has long been said about "combining many radars into a single network."
Say, even the ancient radars, working as a synchronized dozen, furnish single modern ones. And what can be connected to such a network including aircraft radars, and then nothing will be hidden at all.
A couple of years ago it was said that until 2018 such a network would be in Russia.
https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201611172120-66n1.htm
And then suddenly a conversation about a single radar for an airplane. That it is "radio-photonic" is, of course, good. But why not a word about networking?

[Lighten]

This topic in the work on this was silent about her. The network is built on the basis of cellular communication stations.

[poquello]

Quote: Shurik70

And then suddenly a conversation about a single radar for an airplane. That it is "radio-photonic" is, of course, good. But why not a word about networking?

an eccentric man, and Russia will not sell planes or what?

[spectr]

This is heresy. In theory, this is possible, but from the point of view of practice, it is necessary to observe such a number of conditions that a new, more accurate radar will cost less.

[venik]

Quote: Shurik70

And then suddenly a conversation about a single radar for an airplane. That it is "radio-photonic" is, of course, good. But why not a word about networking?

============
Dear Shurik (or Alexander - how do you like Vamm more!) ... Have you even UNDERSTANDED WHAT in the article we are talking about ??? It seems - NO !!!
I will try to explain "on fingers" ..... The transition to "photonics" is about the same REVOLUTIONARY step as the transition from "lamp" to "semiconductor" element base !!! And maybe even more REVOLUTIONARY step !!! There BRAND NEW opportunities open up !!! AND WHO IS FIRST to master this direction - THAT and will have HUGE in the FUTURE ADVANTAGES over a potential adversary (and not only - an adversary!) ..... AND NOT ONLY in the field of radar - there are GREAT PROSPECTS in the field of communications, informatics, etc. etc.!!!!!
And you, excuse me, have mixed everything "to the heap" !!! There will be "photonic" radars (and not only radars!) And NETWORKS will be created! But first, it is necessary to bring it to SERIAL PRODUCTION (and there - ooh-ooh !! A whole LOT of problems, both purely scientific and engineering-technical and technological !!!!).
Already ONE THAT the prototype - CREATED - is a GREAT jerk !!! But this is only the BEGINNING of the way !!!!
But in general - this is probably the MOST GOOD news for today !!!

[spectr]

I think, after all, not a revolutionary way, but an evolutionary one. Most likely, in the classic locator, some of the nodes of the processing path were replaced (in order to transfer the input signal to the optical range). And in space, work is most likely carried out with an electromagnetic wave.

[max91]

Quote: Shurik70

It has long been said about "combining many radars into a single network."
Say, even the ancient radars, working as a synchronized dozen, furnish single modern ones. And what can be connected to such a network including aircraft radars, and then nothing will be hidden at all.
A couple of years ago it was said that until 2018 such a network would be in Russia.
https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201611172120-66n1.htm
And then suddenly a conversation about a single radar for an airplane. That it is "radio-photonic" is, of course, good. But why not a word about networking?

Yes, my friends, it's really bad. Apparently you do not hack at all in this thread.

[venik]

Quote: ltc35

Thank! hi Be sure to learn, especially since this topic is close to me.

=======
I, of course, "wildly apologize" (as they say in Odessa), but how does it turn out for you Alexey: "the topic is CLOSE", and you are "not in the know" ????
Do not consider it an insult !!!

[NEXUS]

Quote: Tersky

Learn

Vitya
ROFAR has been tested since 15, if I am not mistaken. Moreover, this technology itself is being prepared for underwater and surface platforms and air, and so on ...
As I said earlier, the tests take place in 5 stages. Last year, the first stage of the bench was held. By 20, it is announced that the ROFAR serial will be ready.
As for ROFAR for SU-57 ... I think that one of the reasons for the small first batch for military tests is the lack of ROFAR, as well as the engines of the second stage.
I believe that the developers of ROFAR are in a hurry, because the appearance of serial ROFAR will change the balance of power dramatically.
Such a radar, let's say on the SU-30 or SU-35, completely nullifies the advantage of the low-visibility of the same lizard against our machines, as our pilots will see such a target as F-22 for 400 km.

[mashinist]

"old man come in for a picnic"
Borisov said that GPP 18-27 provides for the purchase of 12 su 57 by 27! Is it really so long that the rofar and the engine of the second stage will be cut ... It seems to me that our 5th generation will smoothly flow into the 6th after 27, and for now we will cost su 30, su 35, su 27cm3. As already suggested, today's scanty consignments of conventional weapons come from a reluctance to engage in an arms race and leap forward to leap forward for many decades with the help of new types of strategic weapons. Testing, debugging, those. chains, adoption and are now engaged.

[venik]

Quote: NEXUS

As for ROFAR for SU-57 ... I think that one of the reasons for the small first batch for military tests is the lack of ROFAR, as well as the engines of the second stage.

=============
I join !!!
-----------------------

Quote: NEXUS

the appearance of serial ROFAR will change the balance of power dramatically.
Such a radar, let's say on the SU-30 or SU-35, completely nullifies the advantage of the low-visibility of the same lizard against our machines, as our pilots will see such a target as F-22 for 400 km.

===========
Well, straight, "they took it off the tongue", Andrey !!! I don’t presume to judge at what range it will be possible to detect the Raptor, but the fact that ROFAR is able to “screw up” the “stealth” technologies (in their modern form) is a FACT !!! Not to mention the fact that "microphotonics" is capable of revolutionizing communications, computing, and so on. etc.!!!

[NEXUS]

Quote: venik

I join !!!

Here are excerpts from the adviser to the first deputy general director of KRET V.G. Mikheev. It is big, so I’ll copy some theses ...
By the dimensions of the radar itself ...

How much will this reduce the volume of equipment that is installed on ships?

We plan to reduce the overall dimensions taking into account the cable economy by 5-7 times. This is an order for any carrier - both for an airplane and for a ship.

Regarding noise immunity ...

Will this system be resistant to the effects of enemy electronic warfare?

Unlike traditional radars, drowning rofar with traditional electronic warfare equipment will not work physically. The dynamic range of the photonic crystal is approximately 200 dB. A modern electronic receiver, by comparison, has a range of 40 - 60 dB, and we use modern electronic warfare systems to provide a signal to the input of a radio receiver - in 70-80 dB relative to its threshold sensitivity. Thus, the device that should receive the signal is taken out of operable state. Even after removing the interference, processes are still going on inside him that prevent him from working. But on Earth there simply is no energy source for delivering a signal with a power exceeding 200 dB, therefore this logic simply does not work in the case of ROFAR. It can be confused with the so-called intellectual opposition, but this is a completely different story.

About the practice of use ..

What does this give in practice when creating a radar?

Firstly, on modern radars, when microwave energy is emitted in the long wavelength range, part of the energy is given to terrain folds and other obstacles. If we rise higher, we go, for example, in the centimeter range, then at this frequency the electromagnetic wave collides with air, and in air with water vapor, if we rise in the millimeter range, there is a phenomenon when molecules of air, nitrogen oxygen, etc. .d. become opaque and the electromagnetic wave does not propagate.

It is very difficult to overcome these problems and it is almost impossible to work in a wide frequency band. For a radar created using radio photonics technology this is not a problem.

Secondly, in the field of the radio spectrum, our specialists have come to a certain limit of physical capabilities. This primarily concerns the characteristics of signals and efficiency. On modern transistor solid-state systems, we have reached the limit of efficiency in 20-30%. What is this talking about? For example, 100% energy came to the device. From it, only 30% was converted to microwave radiation. So 70% of energy needs to be put somewhere. It turns, as a rule, into heat. We need cooling systems. On earth this problem is solved, but in the air or in space it is a very difficult task, taking away the already limited energy resources of the device.

In radio photonics, the energy of light radiation, that is, a laser with a power of hundreds of kilowatts, is converted using the so-called photonic crystal into microwave radiation. In this case, the efficiency of devices based on crystalline photons reaches the order of 70-80%. Remains quite a bit of excess thermal radiation.

[Voyager]

I just wanted to ask if it’s not about ROFAR, but you, Andrei, act in advance

[11 black]

Quote: NEXUS

Victor hi
ROFAR has been tested since 15, if I am not mistaken. Moreover, this technology itself is being prepared for underwater and surface platforms and air, and so on ...
As I said earlier, the tests take place in 5 stages. Last year, the first stage of the bench was held. By 20, it is announced that the ROFAR serial will be ready.
As for ROFAR for SU-57 ... I think that one of the reasons for the small first batch for military tests is the lack of ROFAR, as well as the engines of the second stage.
I believe that the developers of ROFAR are in a hurry, because the appearance of serial ROFAR will change the balance of power dramatically.
Such a radar, let's say on the SU-30 or SU-35, completely nullifies the advantage of the low-visibility of the same lizard against our machines, as our pilots will see such a target as F-22 for 400 km.

Well, okay, the dinosaur - it has at least speed, but the F-35 has nothing but a stealth from the word, and they rivet hundreds of them all over NATO ... ROFAR also has noise immunity above the top - it will be interesting

[Henderson]

Then at least with serial AFAR they began to modernize the park. Of course, it is possible to feed breakfasts about wunderwaffles, but there is little benefit from this. But in fact, the Mig-35 will go into a series with slotted gratings.

[HAM]

A man is needed when you need to do stupidity ...

[gunnerminer]

Better without a man. Suddenly he has a runny nose and the doctor will not let him fly.

[the most important]

Quote: dr.star75

Do you need a man in the 6th generation?

Until artificial intelligence is created, and this is not earlier than 50 years later, a person will be needed. No program will be able to display and comprehend the variety of changes in the situation. On-board computers are certainly wonderful, but the human brain is much better.

[dr.star75]

Quote: the most important

Until artificial intelligence is created, and this is not earlier than in 50 years, a person will be needed

AI is already beating a man in chess. Unmanned vehicles are already driving on the roads. Even KAMAZ did this. But that is not the point. Already, pilots can barely cope with overloads during the flight. In the 6th generation, most likely, one of the criteria will be the ability to perform maneuvers with overloads that a person is no longer capable of.

[kuznec]

Beats a person in chess is not AI, but an ordinary computer. Just by comparing millions to billions of combinations. So it is with drones - an analysis of the situation from many sensors and issuing commands in accordance with the program, the largest that can now be used is some accumulation of statistics and a small correction of the rules on this basis.
Google "Turing test" and "technology singularity".
I believe, unlike skeptics, that technological singularity is a matter of the near future. Perhaps comparable in time to the creation of quantum computers.
And then cars with AI will look at humanity, as we are now on mice, or even microbes.

[dr.star75]

Quote: kuznec

Beats a person in chess is not AI, but an ordinary computer.

But a normal computer - not AI? Where is the edge? It is clear that a person programs a computer to achieve his goals.

[kuznec]

A conventional computer is far from AI. In the 80s, there were calculators called "programmable". The principle is the same as now, only now the performance has increased by orders of magnitude.
Once again, I recommend you read about the Turing test and technological singularity. Roughly speaking, AI - it will be a computer that programs itself and, possibly, expands in hardware (at this technological stage, well, at least at the expense of network resources, and in the future through direct production of iron), and its knowledge and skills will grow in geometric progression, in the limit - in all areas of knowledge, and even the areas themselves, i.e. their quantity and quality will multiply in the way we cannot imagine.
What no man is capable of.

[dr.star75]

No, what you describe is already 7 generations

[voyaka uh]

"Just based on comparing millions-billions of combinations." ////
----
No. AI is built in a completely different way. To enumerate combinations would require a computer of great power.
But they beat the chess masters in chess and the gurus in Go (games where brute force combinations are not possible at all) ordinary PCs. Household personal computers.

[kuznec]

I wrote about this exactly that AI will be built differently. It is not yet built.
You first read my comment carefully. And about "Deep Blue", which beats the grandmasters. And it is MILLIONS of combinations that the everyday PC calculates when playing chess, if the program is anything serious. Do you know the processor frequencies of a modern PC? Megahertz, gigahertz. If anything, mega is a million, giga is a billion. If a hundred elementary processor instructions are equated to one chess combination, then in 1 s. percent with a frequency of 1 GHz will count just 10 million combinations. And this does not even take into account the organization of pipelines, multicore, etc.
So far, chess programs are precisely calculating combinations. No more.

[voyaka uh]

Chess - the game is quite primitive in the number of combinations.
Can you play Go? If not, just read the description of the rules. In short, ANY move there requires billions-billions combinations.
Enumeration is impossible. There is only intuitive logic. And so the computer software mastered it.
For self-development, read about "self-learning programs". This is software where the computer itself writes it, without the participation of programmers.
People only set starting source algorithms.
A third (according to a rough estimate) of modern best-selling novels was written not by the authors, but by AI (software).

[shonsu]

My phone beat chess about 10 years ago. So what? Do you think he can be trusted with the choice of purpose, wallpaper in the room or whom to marry? )))

[abc_alex]

Quote: dr.star75

Ai already beats a man in chess

No, you are confused. This man, over hundreds of years of playing chess, has developed an algorithm for analyzing the location of pieces on the board and hundreds of ready-made options for actions at each stage of the game. The computer only goes through them with great speed. Superimposes ready-made logical and statistical matrices on the current arrangement of figures. In fact, playing a computer with a computer in chess is a game of one person with all the chess players in history who have left a documented legacy.
But in the case of a combat aircraft, this is not at all the case. A person by himself cannot distinguish between a Muslim wedding and a meeting of field commanders from a height of 3-5 km. We don't have an algorithm in our brain for this. And we cannot teach the computer this. In the same way, we cannot distinguish a skillfully disguised enemy from an ally. We do not know how to act simultaneously in 3-4 directions, approximating trajectories and predicting actions for the future. A person has neither ready-made algorithms for this nor many years of experience, as in chess. We can hope for some heuristic algorithms, but for now we cannot make such algorithms for our own kind, so far "to the side".
And you also forgot the ethical aspect. Conditionally "a teenager with an AK-47". Is he an Islamic militant, or is he just playing war with his peers with an empty machine gun? By all formal signs, he is fighting in a group. Crack it with a bomb?
And the military themselves will never agree to hand the "button", "trigger" or "trigger" into the hands of "bespectacled men." After all, if anything, the answer will fly not in white coats, but in pixel camouflage. And no one really wants to become complete hostages without the right to make decisions.

Therefore, in my opinion, the automation of combat vehicles will go along the path of creating not fully autonomous aircraft with "brains" but along the path of creating highly autonomous systems without the option of making a decision. That is, a self-aircraft will only fly independently and attack the target indicated to it (or all targets in the "volume").

[venik]

Quote: the most important

Artificial intelligence has not yet been created, and this is not earlier than 50 years later

=======
Optimist you however !!! As for me. So "artificial intelligence" is something like "horizon line" .... And what is "horizon" ??? This is an IMAGINARY line ... You are approaching to it .... And it (the infection) is REMOVING !!!!

[spektr9]

Do you need a man in the 6th generation?

Is there an adequate AI that can replace it? Remote control can be jammed, and in the conditions of global wars completely lost, algorithms that can be put into the on-board computer will obviously not be enough ... So 6th generation without a pilot is a myth

[Sergey39]

And AI is unscientific fiction. Create AI, comparable to the human brain, and even more so a superior person can never.
God is God, and Caesar is Caesar.

[Mestny]

And do you need it comparable to the human brain to control an airplane?
No, not needed. Tasks, in principle, are only slightly more difficult to drive.

[spektr9]

And AI is unscientific fiction. Create AI, comparable to the human brain, and even more so a superior person can never.

Well, why, here is a striking example when AI surpasses the human brain

And do you need it comparable to the human brain to control an airplane?
No, not needed. Tasks, in principle, are only slightly more difficult to drive.

Comparing the performance of a combat mission and controlling a car equating one to the other, not one AI will not be able to afford

[voyaka uh]

"Create an AI comparable to the human brain," ////
----
Already created, whether it is good or bad - it is not clear ...
For specialized, but very diverse tasks.

[andrson]

Quote: dr.star75

Do you need a man in the 6th generation?

Need as a tester.

[mojohed2012]

And how much can you test this plane? Americans f35 already stamped hundreds, f22 available, and we have been trying for years to counter and no supplies to the troops and use on combat duty ...

[SSR]

The task is to implement the optimal distribution of radio-photonic radar elements on the body of a combat aircraft.

Well then, yes. It does not look too fantastic considering the fact that the T-50 radars are "scattered" over the aircraft body.

[gunnerminer]

-use of radio photon radars-

Could not make radar with AFAR Squirrel, now the news about pro-radio photon radars jumped up.

[Bull Terrier]

Do not write nonsense about the squirrel. Will you get smart?

[mvd ru]

Yes, this "murad" with an obvious Jewish smell has long made friends with

[gunnerminer]

News shy away from Squirrel to radio photon radar, an indicator of technical unavailability of the Squirrel.

[Bull Terrier]

prospects word familiar? or did the developers need to network and smoke after the squirrel?

[parkello]

her, for the smart will not pass. he has already proved the opposite many times. so ... let him write what he wants, anyway no one pays attention to him. if we want to know something, then thank God there is someone to ask and find out .. do not ask him too ?! ) what is the demand from it?

[Kasym]

The cost of AFAR was very high (a thousand transmitting and receiving modules for a couple of thousand dollars each). Therefore, the USSR settled on PFAR. And the first aircraft equipped with it was the MiG-31. The development of both an experimental product and one serial production and its costs are one thing.
They wrote that there are still many problems with ROFAR that need to be addressed. And most importantly, what will be the cost of this development ?!

[NN52]

When ROFAR is brought to mind, it will probably be difficult to integrate it into the existing glider and Su 57 filling (and Su 35, and others), maybe that's why we are talking about the development of a 6th generation airplane, and already with ROFAR ....
The development cost may be small, but mass production ....

[gunnerminer]

The integration of ROFAR into the T-50 will be another intractable problem. If you can still create a working model of ROFAR.

[Captain Pushkin]

Quote: gunnerminer

The integration of ROFAR into the T-50 will be another intractable problem. If you can still create a working model of ROFAR.

And what is the intractability? In connecting the ROFAR computer to the aircraft’s digital avionics bus?

[mark1]

What conclusions have been drawn from the conclusion that the prototype ROFAR for the Su-57 is being tested? In the original source, everything is clearly enough written - an experimental sample - for everything ...

[Sergey39]

For the 6th generation. It is clearly written there.

[Ural cossack]

Accelerating the race. Who will spend more this time?

[Sergey39]

The main thing is to disperse and get off in time.

[spektr9]

Accelerating the race. Who will spend more this time?

The one who wins, in the last race, the United States invested in the CIA, the latter and jumped over the KGB by winning the race and destroying the USSR

[mojohed2012]

T50, su57, Armata, Kurganets and other incarnations of ostentatious activity, along with a large-scale modernization of old Soviet technology and its inclusion in the "newest samples" in reports for the president, this, you know, without real supplies to the troops - zilch. Roughly like T35 at parades in the USSR before the war, it looked massive and impressive, but in fact it was a swindle for our own and enemies ...

[kitpit]

If the bench model gives the declared characteristics, then this is really a breakthrough. Of course, the real product is still far away, but this is a matter of technology and finance.

[Rusticolus]

We must not say for the 6th. Namely, a 6th generation aircraft with super maneuverability and a rofar. And you can finish off like the striped penguins - 20 years. Now, when others will have the same thing, even in a prototype, then they will be able to talk about the 6th generation. And not any drones and AI. Stop playing with cheaters according to their rules. If rofar is really so cool, then there can be no more talk about any stealth. Everything will be decided by the maximum range of missiles and the ability to dodge them.

[Lycan]

For the 100th time, I will note that chatting about a promising technology (even releasing any publications until they equip a fleet of modified fleets with modified products) is extremely imprudent, because it’s better for the enemy not to know even disu.

[K-612-O]

With the internet, this is not possible. Look at scientific publications on quantum technologies, radar, optoelectronic technology, their sea, and from everywhere, more or less vague only from the Chinese and ours, and everyone has been lurking about this topic for a very long time.

[Lycan]

Quote: K-612-O

Look at scientific publications on quantum technologies, radar, optoelectronic technology, their sea

I agree, however, that these publications do not appear on their own in Tyrnet: they can be left out for some reasonably long time, i.e. if development or development is promising militarily, keep your mouth shut (keeping secret KB) and work on upgrading equipment.
But keep your finger on the pulse of patent dynamics by introducing your own people in promising foreign design bureaus (I really want to think that "they know about it without me" and are working in this direction).

[Ural cossack]

God bless the flyers. For the infantry to live.

[demo]

I would like to believe all this.

[Berkut24]

But all the current stealth do not care for radio photon radar.

[turbris]

Well, that's the end of the "invisible" planes, the new radars will have a particularly bright picture of them. And how much money the Pentagon spent on them, now they are vigorously pushing them to their allies, and for their own money, which they give them. When it comes to buying these aircraft for the money of the allies, they will stubbornly get rid of them, due to the lack of prospects and any advantages in combat use.

[voyaka uh]

Alright with the radio, am I a simple AFAR Squirrel working on Su-57 or not?

[NEXUS]

Quote: voyaka uh

Alright with the radio, am I a simple AFAR Squirrel working on Su-57 or not?

And in your opinion, in Syria, SU-57, flying on targets, and using an arsenal without a radar flies?
Despite the fact that the complex of electronic warfare systems of the Himalayas, which uses its antennas, is tied to Belka.
Already on the 9th prototype there was a working prototype of the Squirrel.

[voyaka uh]

Perhaps there is a PFAR with the Su-35. If the Squirrel is working properly, then why is this torment with a radio radar?

[NEXUS]

Quote: voyaka uh

If the squirrel is working fine, then why bother with the radio radar?

Then that ROFAR has an order of magnitude more opportunities than any AFAR. Read above, I posted excerpts from an interview with Mikheev ... everything is readily presented there.

[voyaka uh]

I tried to figure this out. Today, if any
powerful AFAR, then nothing else is required on the fighter.
The fact that prototypes are engaged in radiophonic, rather
about problems with the Squirrel.

[NEXUS]

Quote: voyaka uh

Today, if there is a powerful AFAR, then
nothing else is required on the fighter.

ROFAR's "eyesight" is better. Not a single AFAR will see such a target as the F-400 for 500-22 km, and ROFAR is capable of this in normal mode.
Plus weight and size characteristics ... ROFAR in 5-7 is times smaller, because it doesn’t need so many wires, a cooling system, etc. ...
Next ... interference immunity. AFAR can be drowned out, but ROFAR is not, from the word at all.

Quote: voyaka uh

The fact that they are engaged in radiophonics on prototypes indicates more likely problems with the Squirrel.

What hangover? ROFAR is under development, and Squirrel is already working on a prototype. ROFAR’s problem is no longer even to create it, but to integrate it into a combat platform, and it doesn’t matter, either sea or air.

[voyaka uh]

You are greatly mistaken about "vision". The shorter the wavelength,
the less idiosyncrasy. Not without reason, all the radars of the far
detection - meter range.
And the lights are submillimeter. Next come the lasers. Probably heard about the problems of lasers for tens and hundreds of kilometers? These are the same problems with the Rofars. There are no miracles.
And the second: I look through the English-language press. If rofar was a hot topic, then they would be dealt with both in the States and in Israel. We have a company Elta. She is one of the world leaders in the development and sales of radars and LMS to them. It is somehow not yet clear that this interested her. Radars remained centimeter and millimeter.

[NEXUS]

Quote: voyaka uh

If rofar was a hot topic, then they would be dealt with both in the States and in Israel.

From an interview with Mikheev ...

Do you have data on the existence of similar projects in the West?

In the US and the EU, such work is underway. They eat samples of ROFAR, which they study, and they are in trial operation. It is not yet clear how to process all the information that ROFAR receives. We can say that, unlike electronics, in radio photonics we are not inferior to our Western colleagues. Radio photonics will become one of the drivers for the development of a new, sixth technological structure, therefore it is very important for our country to concentrate efforts on implementing projects in this area.

Quote: voyaka uh

You are greatly mistaken about "vision". The shorter the wavelength, the less and
farsightedness.

About the vision ...

Is this the only advantage of radio photonics? Otherwise, radar using radio photonics technology will work the same as the existing ones?

The capabilities of the so-called active phased array antenna, created using the technology of radio photonics (ROFAR), will significantly exceed the capabilities of modern radars.

Radar stations operating on the principles of radio-phased phased antenna arrays will provide us with the output, not typical of the current radar image in the form of dots on the screen, but the usual video image for human vision, as if we could see the object at a distance of hundreds of kilometers, bring look at it from all sides or even look inside.

Everything happens in real time since the speed of a photon exceeds the speed of light. The locator is working, suddenly he saw a plane at a distance of 500 km, it expands its frequency range, uses other locators, processes the received information, and we can look at this aircraft as if it would be wound up from us at a distance of only 50 m.

[voyaka uh]

"since the speed of the photon exceeds the speed of light" ////
------
Exactly exceeds?
What he described: a system of different locators and optical stations. If all the info is correctly mixed in the computer, then you can get reliable images. But not from hundreds of kilometers, but from tens of maximum. But this is not suitable for a fighter.
----
I will not disappoint you about rofar. And with Squirrel, when it is finished, the Su-57 will fight very worthily.

[Mestny]

What I described replaces "a system of different locators and optical stations." At the same time, it has an efficiency of 70% and smaller equipment sizes by 5-7 times.

[Carib]

Still to understand the physics of radio photon radars. Today is more like a fairy tale for fear of potential opponents.

[voyaka uh]

I think it's a bluff. The physics there is this: a laser is used to generate submillimeter radio waves. They are sent and received back. And the result must be decrypted (turned into a picture). Winning is warm (less need to be cooled). Losing in software. Sweep the interference and get a picture is very difficult.

[Mestny]

Ufff ...
From an interview with Mikheev:

... To overcome these problems (signal loss) is very difficult and work in a wide band almost impossible. For a radar created using radio photonics technology, this is not a problem.

That is, it is not a problem to work in a wide range with high efficiency.
Nothing about submillimeter waves as the only option.

[voyaka uh]

Let's simplify:
1) what does rofar emit: photons or radio waves? If radio waves, then how long?
2) what does rofar take?

[Mestny]

Do not.
Neither you nor I saw this thing in your eyes, only you read about it to admit not entirely understandable information.
Only you are trying to prove that it is bad, and I - that our, Russian specialists are working on it.
nonetheless - radiates? Radio waves, no doubt. Only generated not using traditional semiconductor generators and waveguides, for example, but in a different way.

[jonht]

If you read the school physics textbook, then they wipe the poor students that the photon is both a particle and a wave at the same time. So according to the same textbook, there is no difference, since it is both a particle and a wave.
And here that the receiver can already receive state secrets.

[Fkjydjckfrgh]

Quote: voyaka uh

Let's simplify:
1) what does rofar emit: photons or radio waves? If radio waves, then how long?
2) what does rofar take?

radio waves, they are also electromagnetic waves and photons - the same thing from Newton, Yitzhak, by the way (you really need to know that). Photons are visible light, infrared and ultraviolet radiation, and x-ray and gamma, and imagine microwave and meter-long radio waves. We were told about this at school for free (I don’t know how now)

[voyaka uh]

So, the laser and the meter range radar are one and the same?
All are photons. Who cares? Did they tell you this at school for free?

[XXXIII]

Quote: voyaka uh

I think it's a bluff. The physics there is this: a laser is used to generate submillimeter radio waves. They are sent and received back. And the result must be decrypted (turned into a picture). Winning is warm (less need to be cooled). Losing in software. Sweep the interference and get a picture is very difficult.

This is "KRET" - protection of electronics from interference, and the principle of processing is the same, only it is more difficult to create interference with devices, this is probably the whole secret ...

Today the “telecommunication” music library is helping to create a new direction - radio photonics, which arose from the merger of radio electronics, wave optics, microwave optoelectronics and a number of other branches of science and industrial production.
In other words, radio photonics deals with the problems of transmitting, receiving and converting information using electromagnetic waves of the microwave range and photonic devices and systems. Radio photonics allows you to create radio frequency devices with parameters unattainable for traditional electronics.

[Mestny]

Not all, and generally not a secret. The problem is to implement. And then see a solution.

[XXXIII]

Quote: Mestny

Not all, and generally not a secret. The problem is to implement. And then see a solution.

Probably, in 2015 they started research, for 3 years, developments have probably appeared, maybe even a photon radar flies, only someone will say .....

[NEXUS]

Quote: Mestny

The problem is to implement. And then see a solution.

Radio photonics is not only ROFAR from KRET ... few people paid attention to Mikheev’s phrase about 6 technical structure ...
For example, the Schwabe concern also works in this area ...

One of the flagship models - photodetector
device that works in the shortwave
infrared parts (0,9 – 1,7 micrometers
SWIR range). This range is not
thermal, the image is built due to
reflection of radiation from objects, not due to
their own radiation. Therefore images
objects will be comparable to the visible image
- the contrast of the reflected is fixed
radiation due to the difference in coefficients
reflection of the object and background.
This camera is capable of functioning.
in fog and smoke. This was shown by the results of her testing.
in Obninsk at the All-Russian Scientific Research
Hydrometeorological Institute
Information - World Data Center,
where in a very large room they created an artificial
fog. So, first I stopped
“See” an ordinary video camera, then observers,
and the SWIR camera continued to record
not only the object, but also specially applied
tags. Cameras operating in this range,
promising for the fleet, aviation, during operation
cars and armored vehicles.
SWIR camera is able to detect soldiers,
camouflaged, military
equipment under camouflage nets.
From her not hide models of rockets and tanks, another
military equipment. The device is also able to detect
trace of a mortar shell in the sky, along which
you can pretty accurately determine the coordinates
guns

[Mestny]

Yes, such a thing is suitable for everything.

[MrFox]

Unlike traditional radars, drowning rofar with traditional electronic warfare equipment will not work physically. The dynamic range of the photonic crystal is approximately 200 dB.

So what? Further, there is still a radio path with a limited dynamic range compared to optics. And in general, "photons" work only for transmission, don't they? The receiving path is still classic - a radio receiving device?

A modern electronic receiver, by comparison, has a range of 40-60 dB

Not true. These are the GOST standards for household receivers; we are not talking about any modernity. The dynamic range of professional radio receivers is from 80dB and above.

Firstly, on modern radars, when microwave energy is emitted in the long wavelength range, part of the energy is given to terrain folds and other obstacles. If we rise higher, we go, for example, in the centimeter range, then at this frequency the electromagnetic wave collides with air, and in air with water vapor, if we rise in the millimeter range, there is a phenomenon when molecules of air, nitrogen oxygen, etc. .d. become opaque and the electromagnetic wave does not propagate.

It is very difficult to overcome these problems and it is almost impossible to work in a wide frequency band. For a radar created using radio photonics technology this is not a problem.

How is this not a problem? The radiation is still in the radio range, because as you say

In radio photonics, the energy of light radiation, that is, a laser with a power of hundreds of kilowatts, is converted using the so-called photonic crystal into microwave radiation. In this case, the efficiency of devices based on crystalline photons reaches the order of 70-80%. Remains quite a bit of excess thermal radiation.

It was necessary to contrive so to distort with parameters. After that, confidence in what was said at zero

[Mestny]

That's it, I sit down to write a letter to the developers, so that they would urgently stop development - MrFox from the Internet does not believe them!

[voyaka uh]

"it still goes in the radio range, because as you say yourself" ////
------
Of course. And such a clear, as Mikheev states, almost video image can be obtained only with very short waves - nanometer. And they have problems with the passage of the atmosphere.
For a couple of kilometers - yes. A dozen - maybe.
At 400-500 - a bluff.

[Mestny]

Probably he means a wide range of frequencies on one device, so to speak. That is, the one you wrote about replaces a lot of antennas of different ranges.

[voyaka uh]

It is possible. The laser will allow you to more accurately generate radio waves of different frequencies: perhaps from decimeter to nanometer. This is an advantage. But this is where optics ends. Next, the usual radar.
And this does not solve the problem of a clear image of supposedly hundreds of kilometers.
For hundreds of kilometers, decimeter waves can report: "something is flying like an airplane."
A little closer is the sending of centimeter waves and comp. processing the returned signal will say: "priests! yes this is F-15 ..."
And from 20 km and closer millimeter and submillimeter waves will report: "and he has 8 missiles under his wings."

[Mestny]

So I do not argue. The information in the quote is not clear enough.

[lucul]

Quote: voyaka uh

You are greatly mistaken about "vision". The shorter the wavelength,
the less idiosyncrasy. Not without reason, all the radars of the far
detection - meter range.
And the lights are submillimeter. Next come the lasers. Probably heard about the problems of lasers for tens and hundreds of kilometers? These are the same problems with the Rofars. There are no miracles.
And the second: I look through the English-language press. If rofar was a hot topic, then they would be dealt with both in the States and in Israel. We have a company Elta. She is one of the world leaders in the development and sales of radars and LMS to them. It is somehow not yet clear that this interested her. Radars remained centimeter and millimeter.

Yeah, if Israel does not do this, then this is futile and unnecessary? )))
They sang about hypersound in the same way before - in the West it doesn’t work out - in Russia they won’t do so.
Recently, I have been observing a strong inertness of thinking among Jews.
Stubborn and zombie became eerily)) But before they were always famous for their flexible mind and unbiased thinking.
How the world is changing))

[Mestny]

Yes, let them write.
The main thing for our work is going on. It will turn out fine.
It's like with the Crimean bridge - they also wrote together about impossible to build.
Despite the fact that the bridge is visible to all comers.
And in this topic, it’s clear that anyone with a smartphone will not be allowed to go.

[sabotage]

Quote: lucul

They sang about hypersound in the same way before - in the West it doesn’t work out - in Russia they won’t do so.

And where is the hypersound? Aeroballistic missiles do not offer.

[Mestny]

What do you suggest? Well, what would you believe?

[voyaka uh]

Offer controlled devices with ramjet engines flying at hypersonic speed in the atmosphere.
They were not there, and are not. Neither in Russia nor in the USA.
And the warheads of the BR, like flying from space in hypersound from the moment of their invention, will continue to fly.

[Mestny]

Twenty-five again ... money for fish.
Solid propellant rocket propeller do not offer;
But "Dagger" flies, gives 20 meters. Is it hypersound or not?
And the developers do not care whether you consider it a hypersonic missile or not.
Well, then yes, other aircraft except rockets so far, alas ...
Well, no one has missiles with 20m either - except Russia.

[voyaka uh]

"But the" Dagger "flies," ////
----
Again twenty-five ...
A dagger is an Iskander launched from an airplane. Ordinary ballistic missile.
Why shouldn’t she fly with hypersound? You can accelerate perfectly in space - nothing prevents

[FRoman1984]

AFAR "Belka" would finally be brought first. Already 15 years, and things are still there, as with AFAR for the MiG-29 "Zhuk-A".

[Mentat]

Quote: voyaka uh

You are greatly mistaken about "vision". The shorter the wavelength,
the less idiosyncrasy. Not without reason, all the radars of the far
detection - meter range.
And the lights are submillimeter. Next come the lasers. Probably heard about the problems of lasers for tens and hundreds of kilometers? These are the same problems with the Rofars. There are no miracles.
And the second: I look through the English-language press. If rofar was a hot topic, then they would be dealt with both in the States and in Israel. We have a company Elta. She is one of the world leaders in the development and sales of radars and LMS to them. It is somehow not yet clear that this interested her. Radars remained centimeter and millimeter.

“If we cannot do this, nobody can do it” - you have some special pink glasses on. This is not the first time in this forum, by the way, that slips from the Israelis. It’s even comical already. Last time it was about the elements of bombs that are able to distinguish between the type of target on the battlefield. The same reaction was - we don’t have it, so it can’t be. You yourself are not funny?

[voyaka uh]

There are things that Israel does not know how to develop and produce: internal combustion engines, nuclear reactors, submarines, helicopters, cars.
Many, many more things.
But in avionics, instruments, radars, chips, guidance, combat and fire control systems - one of the recognized world leaders. And one of the leaders in sales.
Therefore, both bomb control and compact radars are our "skates"

[MrFox]

Another revolutionary photon radar of 2013.
https://www.iris.sssup.it/retrieve/handle/11382/498512/13151/

Typical values ​​of the dynamic range are from 50 to 60 dB, but not the 200dB mentioned by the representative of KRET. Maybe a piece of glass has such a dynamic range, but you don’t need to forget about the radio components in the path. And if you do not forget about it, everything will start to look much more modest

[Mentat]

Quote: voyaka uh

There are things that Israel does not know how to develop and produce: internal combustion engines, nuclear reactors, submarines, helicopters, cars.
Many, many more things.
But in avionics, instruments, radars, chips, guidance, combat and fire control systems - one of the recognized world leaders. And one of the leaders in sales.
Therefore, both bomb control and compact radars are our "skates"

It turns out that you have pink glasses with very thick glasses)

[Mentat]

Are you really so offended by your own blindness that you are putting down cons?) Well, well.
However, you yourself wrote: one of leaders, not the highest authority, not the owner of extraterrestrial technologies of an unattainable level.
You are engaged in outright self-deception. Moreover, considering that in fundamental developments Russia is traditionally strong.

[voyaka uh]

For: Mentat

I don’t put cons at all. Never. From the moment of their repeated introduction, I set one by mistake. I did not set them in 2014-2016, when they were.
In an interesting discussion, I put the pluses to those who argue with me.
Now corrected your minus by 0.

[UA3QHP]

Quote: MrFox

In radio photonics, the energy of light radiation, that is, a laser with a power of hundreds of kilowatts, is converted using the so-called photonic crystal into microwave radiation. In this case, the efficiency of devices based on crystalline photons reaches the order of 70-80%. Remains quite a bit of excess thermal radiation.

Have you forgotten about the laser efficiency?
So in what frequency range does ROFAR work?
And then it seems to me that this is a breed of nanotechnology in our country and railguns in them.

[voyaka uh]

"So in what frequency range does ROFAR operate?" ////
----
This is what Mikheev is trying to hide, carrying a terminological blizzard about a "video" picture at a distance of 400-500 km. If!
Submillimeter (nanometer) waves die out already at a distance of a dozen kilometers. And ordinary centimeters require a conventional computer processing-decryption (from voltage peaks to pixels) with a resolution very far from the video.

[Е2 - Е4]

there is no airplane yet and whether there will be a question, but for 6 generations already +++. Congratulations on your next cut