Military Review

Where did the first Scandinavians come from?

64
Over a number of materials published on VO, their readers had the opportunity to familiarize themselves with various aspects of the life of the Vikings (sailors, pirates, merchants), people of Scandinavia of a certain era, which, by the way, historians call the Viking Age. But what happened before that time? Well - there were separate publications about the culture of the ancient Danes and their burials, helmets of Wendel culture, a sword and a helmet from Sutton-Hu too. But ... and what happened before, well, let's say, in the same Stone Age. And not just in the stone, but at each of its stages or epochs?


Where did the first Scandinavians come from?

This is how the glacial tundra looked, in which ancient aliens on the lands of Scandinavia hunted on such deer.

At one time it was promised that material will appear on this topic, and now this time has come. Well, to begin the story about who the ancient Scandinavians were and where "their land began to eat" follows from the mention of very important finds made in 1996 in Wolf Cave in Western Finland. Many researchers believe that it was there that the material evidence of the presence of Neanderthals in it was discovered. In this case, the minimum age of the finds made there, archaeologists have estimated at 40 thousands of years. Note, before that, the most ancient evidence of a person’s stay in the North of Europe was considered to be finds dating back to about 8500 BC - that is, remnants of primitive settlements in Denmark, Sweden and Norway, as well as in the Baltic States and Finland.

It is known that the Stone Age, or rather its Paleolithic time, coincided with a large-scale cooling and glaciation. Glaciers then retreated, then again seized vast territories of Europe and Asia. And the last ice age was just some kind of 26,5 — 19 thousands of years ago.

The level of the World Ocean in this epoch was significantly lower than the modern one - approximately by 120 - 135 meters, since in the glaciers, which had a thickness of 3 - 4 km, the enormous mass of ocean water froze. Shallow seas such as the Yellow, North, as well as the Persian and Siam Gulfs simply did not exist at that time, or they were much smaller than the modern ones.

But somewhere between 15 000 and 10 000 years BC. er The last ice age is finally over. By this time, the entire Scandinavian Peninsula was covered with ice, but they too began to retreat about 12 thousands of years ago. First, Denmark and Southern Sweden were freed from their ice shell, then more northern areas. And then the tribes of primitive hunters, who lived at that time on the border with the ice, together with the herds of reindeer, began to move to the north.

That is, all the finds that are available to archaeologists, unequivocally say that the first people, and not "just people", but Cro-Magnons, appeared in Scandinavia just at the end of the last glaciation, that is, approximately 13 - 14 thousands of years ago, that is in the era of the Upper Paleolithic. But neither the bone remains, nor the tools of work of an earlier time, that is, those belonging to Neanderthals, were ever found on the territory of Scandinavia. At least two similar cultures are named, whose tools were found on the territory of modern Norway and Sweden.

Tribes that roamed the tundra of the postglacial era engaged in hunting and gathering. They also fished in rivers and lakes, of which there were a lot everywhere because of the melting of the glacier. The territory of the so-called Doggerland - the land lying between Denmark and England, and today hidden under the waves of the North Sea, was also truly a fertile place for primitive settlers. The finds of labor tools and a harpoon made of deer horn at the bottom of the shallow Dogger banks prove that once there was land and there were people who were engaged in fishing and hunting. Moreover, these were already people of the Mesolithic era, as evidenced by the shape of their guns and the technology of their processing. The banks of Doggerland are overgrown with reeds, in which a multitude of birds nestled, which enabled people to fish for them, staying at the same place. So it was here that the first pile settlements of sedentary, not nomadic, hunters and fishermen arose.

However, fate turned out to be harsh to them. In the period between 6200 and 6000 BC. er at the bottom off the coast of Norway, approximately in 100 km from it, one after another, three submarine landslides of loess soil, which were carried to the ocean as a result of glacier melting, occurred. The result was a tsunami wave, flooding all these low-lying lands. Well, and the further rise of the level of the World Ocean hid these lands from the people, thus separating the British Isles from continental Europe.

The rise of the level of the World Ocean also caused another phenomenon: the huge glacial Antsilovoe Lake, located in the southern part of the modern Baltic Sea, connected to the Atlantic Ocean, and in its place the Litorina Sea was formed, and the outlines of the coastline approached the modern ones.


Map of distribution in Europe of haplogroups U2 and U5.

In the VII millennium BC. er Scandinavia has already begun to cover forests. At this time, the Mesolithic Maglemose culture (7500 — 6000 BC) was developing in Denmark and southern Sweden, and Fosna-Hensbach culture is to the north of it, in Norway and in a large part of southern Sweden. Here, on the eastern shore of Lake Vättern, the remains of seven men, who lived just in the Mesolithic period, ie, were found. about 8000 years ago. It was possible to determine their genetic identity, and it turned out that they have the mitochondrial haplogroup U2 and U5.

An indicator for the culture of the time is the flint microliths with a sharp edge, which were used as tips for spears and arrows. From 6000 BC. er their finds are becoming increasingly rare, but long flint flakes appear, characteristic of the Congemose culture (ca. 6000 — 5200 years BC), which went on tips and flint knives. This culture was also replaced by the Mesolithic culture of Ertebella (ca. 5300 — 3950 years BC) of the end of the Mesolithic era.

The transition to the Neolithic began in Scandinavia around 5000 BC. e., which led to the emergence in everyday life of the inhabitants of the peninsula, many innovations, especially ceramics. People learned to polish their stone products and, in particular, stone axes. Settlements have become permanent, quite large and located in the mouths of rivers.


Stone axes of the late Neolithic era, approx. 3000 - 1800 BC. (Toulouse Museum)

The culture of funnel-shaped cups (ca. 4000 — 2700 years BC) replaced the culture of Ertebella from continental Europe. Its main feature was the construction of megalithic structures.


Scap ax 2800 - 2200's BC. (Archaeological Museum of Brandenburg in the Monastery of St. Paul)

Finally, by the end of III millennium BC. er this culture fell under the onslaught of continental aliens who belonged to the culture of battle axes, which many researchers consider to be carriers of early Indo-European languages. Stone polished battle axes served the people of this culture as a symbol of social status. Then the people of Scandinavia became acquainted with metalworking technology and entered the Bronze Age.


Flint dagger 1800 BC (National Museum of Denmark, Copenhagen)

Interestingly, the Swedish-Norwegian culture of battle axes is represented by no less than 3000 burials. From 2500 — 500 BC. er There are also a large number of petroglyphs of western Sweden (“images from Tanum”) and in Norway, in Alta. Here, the first petroglyphs were discovered in the 1973 year. Now there are about 6000. Age from 2000 to 6200 years. In 1985, these rock paintings are listed on the UNESCO World Heritage List. But in Bohuslän found petroglyphs with images of a sexual nature, dated to the time of 800 — 500. BC. er So the plots of the Scandinavian petroglyphs are very multivalued!


Rock paintings - petroglyphs in the municipality of Tanum, in Sweden. In 1972, they were discovered by a local resident, Age Nielsen, who wanted to blow up rocks with dynamite, and as a result found these unique images. In total, more than 3000 patterns have been found, arranged in groups in more than 100 locations along the coastal 25 kilometer line of the fjord during the Bronze Age. The total area of ​​the complex is 0,5 km². The age of the pictures is estimated to range from 3800 to 2600 years. Before us are a variety of scenes from the lives of people of that time: hunting, domestic scenes, weapon, animals, boats. Due to the effects of acid rain patterns are at risk. They are painted in red color specially to make it more convenient for tourists to consider.


Ceramic vessel. (Archaeological Museum of Schleswig)

The early culture of the Scandinavian Bronze Age originated around the 1800 — 500. BC. er first on the territory of Denmark, and then spread to the southern regions of Sweden and Norway. Bronze weapons, bronze and gold jewelry, as well as artifacts from Europe appeared in the burials. From V to I century BC. er in Scandinavia began the pre-Roman Iron Age, which from about I to IV century of our era, the Roman Iron Age and a significant influence of Roman culture. And then the Wendel era and the "Viking Age" began ...


Dolmen burial

And now let us once again turn to the data of paleogenetics, especially since the research in this area under the project “Human Genome” is conducted regularly today and gives a lot of interesting things. First of all, we note that there is a certain similarity in the specific gravity of the same haplogroups in the average ethnic group between the Scandinavians and the Eastern Slavs:
- among the inhabitants of Scandinavia 20% R1a, 40% I1 + I2, 10% N1c1 and 20% R1b;
- among Eastern Slavs 50% R1a, 20% I1 + I2, 15% N1 с1 and 5% R1b.


The distribution pattern of haplogroup I1.

The second is that the haplogroup I1 is traditionally Scandinavian and that the last common ancestor of the modern haplogroup I1 carriers lived 4 600 years ago. Moreover, the first mutation, which separated I1 from I, could, it is believed, happen even 20 thousands of years ago. Nevertheless, all those who possess this haplogroup today come from a single man who lived about 5 thousands of years ago. And this, as it once was, was when Indo-Europeans, who belonged to the culture of battle axes, came to Scandinavia, and who apparently destroyed most of the male part of the aboriginal population.

As a result, the ratio of haplogroups among the Scandinavian peoples today is:
I1 - R1b - R1a - N3 (%)
Icelanders: 34 - 34 - 24 - 1
Norwegians: 36 - 31 - 26 - 4
Swedes: 42 - 27 - 13 - 10
Danes: 39 - 39 - 12 - 2


Kurgan burial. (Archaeological Museum of Schleswig)

A study of the genetic lineage of the Podgornykh family from the village of Annino, Vologda Oblast, who lived here for a long time, was also conducted in Russia. It turned out that her men belong to the haplogroup I1a3b (Z138), which in popular literature is often called the “Viking haplogroup” (I1a). But the most interesting is its marker Z138. Today it is very scattered throughout the territories of Germany and Austria, but reaches its maximum on the coast of Wales and England, that is, in the area of ​​Danlo - “Danish law”. However, the warriors of the Danes made trips to the lands of the Eastern Slavs. For example, in the "Acts of the Danes" Saxon Grammar (written at the turn of the XII-XIII centuries) refers to the capture of Polotsk in the 5th-6th centuries by King Frodo I, the son of Hading, who killed the Polotsk king Vespasius, capturing the city with cunning. That is, DNA analysis shows that those who believe that the Scandinavian Vikings did not leave their genetic mark on the territory of Russia are wrong. Moreover, it turns out that among the Vikings ... there were also loyal family men who took with them both wives and children, and not just robbing new lands, but settling on them!
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  1. Basil50
    Basil50 29 November 2018 05: 37
    0
    In fact, where did they come from and how did the ancestors of the Danes and Scandinavians find themselves in northern Europe. There was such a Tour Heyerdahl who was looking for and found a place where the God of the Scandinavians One lost his eye and hung on an oak.
    1. Same lech
      Same lech 29 November 2018 05: 53
      0
      There was such a Thor Heyerdahl who sought and found a place where the god of the Scandinavians Odin lost an eye and hung on an oak.

      Was ... smile with him our unforgettable Yuri Senkevich sailed on Kon-Tiki ... romance ...
      did they find the eye of this God Odin?
      1. brn521
        brn521 29 November 2018 12: 13
        +1

        There was such a Thor Heyerdahl who sought and found a place where the god of the Scandinavians Odin lost an eye and hung on an oak.

        At the same time, he sent linguists to hell and believed that if the toponym has a name similar to the Scandinavian, then it could well be Scandinavian, no matter how it was distorted by the Latins and Greeks.
      2. Lekov L
        Lekov L 29 November 2018 22: 00
        +2
        Was ... smile with him, our unforgettable Yuri Senkevich sailed on Kon-Tiki ... romance ..

        Alexey, with all due respect to you and Yuri Senkevich.
        He was not on the raft, he then worked as a doctor on the boats "Ra" papyrus in the carriage.
        The crew "Kon-Tiki."
        Thor Heyerdahl (1914 — 2002) - expedition leader.
        Eric Hesselberg (1914 — 1972) - navigator and artist. He painted the image of Kon-Tiki on the sail.
        Hermann Watzinger (1916 — 1986) is a technical measurement engineer. During the expedition, he conducted meteorological and hydrological observations.
        Knut Haugland (1917 — 2009) is a radio specialist.
        Thurstein Robyu (1918 — 1964) is the second radio operator.
        Bengt Danielsson (1921 — 1997) - served as coca. He was interested in the theory of migration. He also helped as a translator, since the only one of the crew spoke Spanish.
        With respect and thanks to Vyacheslav Olegovich for the article.
        hi
    2. Vend
      Vend 29 November 2018 10: 04
      0
      Quote: Vasily50
      In fact, where did they come from and how did the ancestors of the Danes and Scandinavians find themselves in northern Europe. There was such a Tour Heyerdahl who was looking for and found a place where the God of the Scandinavians One lost his eye and hung on an oak.

      Well, if you take Odin, then in the "Circle of the Earth" it is clearly written that he came to Scandinavia from somewhere from the east.
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 29 November 2018 16: 21
        0
        Quote: Wend
        Quote: Vasily50
        In fact, where did they come from and how did the ancestors of the Danes and Scandinavians find themselves in northern Europe. There was such a Tour Heyerdahl who was looking for and found a place where the God of the Scandinavians One lost his eye and hung on an oak.

        Well, if you take Odin, then in the "Circle of the Earth" it is clearly written that he came to Scandinavia from somewhere from the east.

        A megaculture of battle axes came to Scandinavia from the east. Then from there, those who are now called the Slavs went south and east. In general, all people are brothers laughing drinks
        By the way, even before Scandinavia, battle axes left their mark, for example, in the Urals - only in the Chelyabinsk region more than a dozen of their cities were found, copies of which were later built in Europe.
      2. protoss
        protoss 30 November 2018 01: 07
        0
        from asgard and Turkland, which are near the Black Sea
        1. just exp
          just exp 30 November 2018 07: 10
          -1
          Osendovsky led Asgard to Mongolia, more precisely to Gobi, by the way in Gobi giant layers of melted sand were found, such as traces of Ragnarok.
          PS if someone paid attention, then we have the name of the country from the name of the people and ia is added to it. such as the country of the Germans German-ia, the English Ang-ia, Dan Dan-ia, Russian Russ-ia. Japanese Japan. and now think about who lived in a country that has been called As-ia for centuries.
          Threat read the names of the rivers in the Mahabharata and if you look for them you will find them in Russia. in frequency in Siberia and on the other hand.

          and One was from the Avestan Turans. who through the Crimea got to Scandinavia.
          and the main among the Ases was only among the Scandinavians.
          1. protoss
            protoss 30 November 2018 13: 44
            0
            like that right from crimea to scandinavia? it's like a joke about the Sino-Finnish border laughing
            1. just exp
              just exp 11 December 2018 07: 48
              0
              but about the ready in the Crimea, too, did not hear anything?
              darkness, people in general are not familiar with history.
              1. protoss
                protoss 13 December 2018 15: 42
                0
                I’m just friends with history, as well as with geography. it seems to me that at that time there was no direct Khersones-upsala air service (by the way, now too). so right from the Crimea to Scandinavia by no means.
                and the Goths from the Crimea to the west went into the Roman Empire, and not into Scandinavia. rather, the Getae there are the ancestors of the Crimean Goths, and not vice versa.
      3. Nick_R
        Nick_R 1 December 2018 19: 53
        0
        Tour Heerdahl, shortly before his death, was on an expedition to Azov and they say he found a lot of confirmation of his hypothesis. And it is actually such that the very ice-free warm sea, where, according to Scandinavian legends, the ancestors of the Scandinavians came from, it was the Sea of ​​Azov.
        Asa proper is the ancestral gods of the Scandinavians who lived near the same sea. As you know, and now there is the same city of aces (Azov) and the sea of ​​the same name.
        I would also note that the old Russian Az meant "I", i.e. acted as a person's self-identification. The same word meant the first letter of the alphabet and the number 1. By the way, this number is pronounced as "one". It is symbolic, given that Odin is in Scandinavian mythology the supreme god, the first of the Ases.
    3. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 29 November 2018 10: 30
      +4
      Quote: Vasily50
      There was such a Thor Heyerdahl who sought and found a place where the god of the Scandinavians Odin lost an eye and hung on an oak.

      About this Pushkin wrote: "There are miracles, there Loki wanders, there Odin hangs on the branches." All this happened "near Lukomorye", and everyone knows that Lukomor is the father of Chernomor and Belomor, about whom Pushkin also wrote, but censorship deleted about Belomor - the "white idea" was not held in high esteem in the USSR. So, Lukomor was a Russian prince before our era, he hung his slave Odin on an oak tree for disobedience, but he in an incomprehensible way took off, caught his eye, and fled somewhere into the wilderness of the forest, the Scandinavians went from him just about 5000 years back.
      wassat laughing
      Sorry for the lack of seriousness in the morning, colleagues. request
      Vyacheslav Olegovich, excellent article, thanks. I don’t know how the day will be, but I will try to take an active part in the discussion, if it works out, this is an interesting topic. The images of the boats on the petroglyphs alone are worth something. If we take the vertical sticks depicted along the sides for people (and for what else?), Then we have quite a decent image of a three thousand-year-old drakkar, and then it is more than that, ago.
      1. Decimam
        Decimam 29 November 2018 11: 43
        +2
        "Sorry for being frivolous in the morning"
        We forgive, especially since it is really frivolity. It is immediately clear that the latest discoveries in the field of anthropology and ethnogenesis remain beyond your attention. Meanwhile, these are revolutionary discoveries.
        It turns out the Cro-Magnons are protorusses. And it was they who laid the foundations of all future ethnic groups. And you about Pushkin. Petukhov must read!
        1. Sergey39
          Sergey39 29 November 2018 13: 34
          0
          D.Yu.Petukhov "Normans - Russians of the North"
        2. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 29 November 2018 14: 11
          +2
          Quote: Decimam
          Petukhov need to read!

          Quote: Decimam
          There is an interesting book on the subject of the article as well. - G. Lebedev.

          Lebedev is better. smile
          According to Petukhov we have Samsonov specials, I do not dare. smile
          1. Decimam
            Decimam 29 November 2018 14: 35
            +2
            Where is there Samsonov to Petukhov!
      2. Vend
        Vend 29 November 2018 16: 27
        0
        [quote = The owner of the Trilobite in front of us is a pretty decent image of a drakkar that is three thousand years old, or even older. [/ quote] And what if these images record the arrival of newcomers to the territory of Scandinavia. And the ships appeared in the Baltic Sea even before the Scandinavians went to sea. The Fleet of the Venets writes about it Julius Caesar, the Fleet of the Slavs is written about it in the "History of the Lombards".
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 29 November 2018 20: 16
          +3
          Quote: Wend
          The Fleet of the Venets writes about it Julius Caesar, the Fleet of the Slavs is written about it in the "History of the Lombards".

          You want to say that perhaps the Slavs went to sea before the Scandinavians? For me, people began to sail the seas when there were no Slavs or Scandinavians as such. To swim the seas you need to live by the sea. Slavic ethnos originated in the depths of the continent, so it seems to me that it is somehow wrong to attribute to Slavs the origins of maritime affairs. On the Baltic coast, the Slavs emerged as an already formed ethnic group, by which time the Scandinavians had plowed it long ago. As for the southern seas, the Slavs got to them, though earlier, than to the server, but there representatives of ancient civilizations and their heirs had long dominated.
          All data and archaeological and linguistic (almost all maritime terminology, for example, in the Old Russian language is borrowed from the Scandinavian languages) indicate that it was the Scandinavians who taught the Slavs to walk on the sea, and not vice versa.
          Well, I will not discuss the possible arrival of aliens, ok smile at?
          1. Beringovsky
            Beringovsky 30 November 2018 02: 38
            0
            Trilobite Master
            All data and archaeological and linguistic (almost all maritime terminology, for example, in the Old Russian language is borrowed from the Scandinavian languages) indicate that it was the Scandinavians who taught the Slavs to walk on the sea, and not vice versa.

            ??????? !!!
            You?!! belay is it possible in more detail?
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 30 November 2018 08: 49
              0
              Quote: Beringovsky
              ??????? !!!
              You?!! Is it not possible in more detail?

              I did not understand what surprised you so much. In more detail it is possible here, for example: V.A.Kokhanovsky
              "Thematic classification of Scandinavian loanwords in Russian". Anyway, literature on this issue is easy enough to find. Look at the archaeological part at Lebedev, who has already been mentioned here - everything is described in great detail, however, it was difficult for me to read it personally.
              Quote: Decimam
              By the way, there is an interesting book on the subject of the article as well. - Lebedev G.S. The Viking Age in Northern Europe and in Russia.
          2. Vend
            Vend 30 November 2018 10: 18
            0
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Quote: Wend
            The Fleet of the Venets writes about it Julius Caesar, the Fleet of the Slavs is written about it in the "History of the Lombards".

            You want to say that perhaps the Slavs went to sea before the Scandinavians? For me, people began to sail the seas when there were no Slavs or Scandinavians as such. To swim the seas you need to live by the sea. Slavic ethnos originated in the depths of the continent, so it seems to me that it is somehow wrong to attribute to Slavs the origins of maritime affairs. On the Baltic coast, the Slavs emerged as an already formed ethnic group, by which time the Scandinavians had plowed it long ago. As for the southern seas, the Slavs got to them, though earlier, than to the server, but there representatives of ancient civilizations and their heirs had long dominated.
            All data and archaeological and linguistic (almost all maritime terminology, for example, in the Old Russian language is borrowed from the Scandinavian languages) indicate that it was the Scandinavians who taught the Slavs to walk on the sea, and not vice versa.
            Well, I will not discuss the possible arrival of aliens, ok smile at?

            Here is the answer. “The History of Langobardoa” “44. ... on a great number of ships the Slavs came and set up their camp near the city of Sipont (Siponto). They set up hidden traps around the camp, and when Ayo, in the absence of Raduald and Grimwald, opposed them and tried to smash, his horse fell into one of these traps. The Slavs attacked him, and he was killed along with many others. When Raduald was informed of this, he quickly appeared to them and spoke easily with these Slavs in their own language. ” And this is the event of 641 of the year.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 30 November 2018 10: 37
              0
              Quote: Wend
              Here is the answer.

              The answer to what? Does your quote prove that the Slavs were ahead of the Scandinavians in relation to the maritime cause? Yes, not at all. You remembered the events of the 7th century that took place, most likely somewhere in the Adriatic region. Sorry, but at that time the Scandinavians were already making trans-Baltic crossings with might and main, using the sails, and the Slavs, who had just left for the Baltic coast, had already learned something.
              The art of navigation, as archeology shows, originated in the northern seas of years a thousand times earlier, when the Slavs, or rather their ancestors, also did not see the sea.
              1. Vend
                Vend 30 November 2018 14: 01
                0
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Quote: Wend
                Here is the answer.

                The answer to what? Does your quote prove that the Slavs were ahead of the Scandinavians in relation to the maritime cause? Yes, not at all. You remembered the events of the 7th century that took place, most likely somewhere in the Adriatic region. Sorry, but at that time the Scandinavians were already making trans-Baltic crossings with might and main, using the sails, and the Slavs, who had just left for the Baltic coast, had already learned something.
                The art of navigation, as archeology shows, originated in the northern seas of years a thousand times earlier, when the Slavs, or rather their ancestors, also did not see the sea.

                This suggests that the Slavs were already swimming in the Adriatic. Vennets are considered by many historians as Slavs of this Baltic Sea. . The first incident with the Scandinavians relates to the robbery of an Irish monastery in 789, and this is the 8 century, and there was one drakar there. The Slavic fleet attacked the Lombards in the 641 year, and this is the 7 century. Read the Helmold Chronicle, it says very well who was the master in the Baltic Sea.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 30 November 2018 14: 45
                  0
                  That is, in your opinion, it turns out that the Slavs, who had only been formed as an ethnos in the century to the 4th – 5th centuries AD, came to the Adriatic and the Baltic, saw deserted shores and waters and were the first to start building ships. No one before them on these seas sailed, including the Scandinavians in the Baltic and the North Sea. The people who lived on the shores of these seas were not interested in anything.
                  Do not tell my sneakers.
                  Slavs, of course, learned to build ships, coming to the shores of the seas, but it was, as you rightly noted, only from the VII century. And, of course, they did not learn to build these ships from scratch, but by adopting experience from those who already knew how to do it: in the south — from the Greeks (badly, it turned out, they didn’t learn so badly), in the north — from the Scandinavians ( here things were better).
                  Quote: Wend
                  Read the chronicle of Helmold, it is very well said who was the master in the Baltic Sea.

                  Even from this chronicle (12th century, by the way), it clearly follows that the Slavs in his times managed only near their lands, in other words, in territorial waters. I have not heard anything about the maritime campaigns of the Pomeranian, that is, the Western Slavs, for example, to Eastern Finland or Britain. The sphere of their interests - Rügen, Jutland, partly Skone, not further. Scandinavians, starting from the IX-X centuries. went around Europe and to America, and in the Baltic, including the Gulf of Finland, and in the North Sea generally considered themselves at home, since their traces are present in these regions from the VII century.
                  The Southern Slavs, too, did not differ in sea savagery. And even in the passage you cited it says that they sailed and landed on the shore - that's all.
                  So the Slavs were notable navigators and, especially, pioneers in the seas.
                  1. Vend
                    Vend 30 November 2018 15: 23
                    0
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    That is, in your opinion, it turns out that the Slavs, who had only been formed as an ethnos in the century to the 4th – 5th centuries AD, came to the Adriatic and the Baltic, saw deserted shores and waters and were the first to start building ships. No one before them on these seas sailed, including the Scandinavians in the Baltic and the North Sea. The people who lived on the shores of these seas were not interested in anything.
                    Do not tell my sneakers.
                    Slavs, of course, learned to build ships, coming to the shores of the seas, but it was, as you rightly noted, only from the VII century. And, of course, they did not learn to build these ships from scratch, but by adopting experience from those who already knew how to do it: in the south — from the Greeks (badly, it turned out, they didn’t learn so badly), in the north — from the Scandinavians ( here things were better).
                    Quote: Wend
                    Read the chronicle of Helmold, it is very well said who was the master in the Baltic Sea.

                    Even from this chronicle (12th century, by the way), it clearly follows that the Slavs in his times managed only near their lands, in other words, in territorial waters. I have not heard anything about the maritime campaigns of the Pomeranian, that is, the Western Slavs, for example, to Eastern Finland or Britain. The sphere of their interests - Rügen, Jutland, partly Skone, not further. Scandinavians, starting from the IX-X centuries. went around Europe and to America, and in the Baltic, including the Gulf of Finland, and in the North Sea generally considered themselves at home, since their traces are present in these regions from the VII century.
                    The Southern Slavs, too, did not differ in sea savagery. And even in the passage you cited it says that they sailed and landed on the shore - that's all.
                    So the Slavs were notable navigators and, especially, pioneers in the seas.

                    Yes, the Norman dope in you indestructible amount. laughing .
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 30 November 2018 17: 53
                      0
                      Quote: Wend
                      Yes, the Norman dope in you indestructible amount.

                      Nonsense is, just, ignoring the arguments, to continue to persist in their delusions. wink
                      Yes, and it would be nice for you to learn to distinguish sarcasm from rudeness, since the latter is a sign of weakness and is regarded by the interlocutor as an admission of defeat. Now, during the next controversy, I will have every right to tell you: "Remember, once I have already dunked you." laughing
                      See you. hi
                    2. Operator
                      Operator 3 December 2018 12: 03
                      0
                      Quote: Wend
                      Norman dope in you is an indestructible amount

                      Trilobite ignores everything that does not fit into his Norman theory:
                      - chronicles of the 6 century about the attack of Rus on ships in the North Sea;
                      - 9 century sagas about the Vendian attack on the Scandinavians of the Jutland Peninsula;
                      - Arab records of the 9 century about the attack of the Rus on the Atlantic coast of Portugal and Spain.

                      Trilobite is still not aware who in the 12 century burned down the largest city of Scandinavia to Sigguna and brought as a trophy the church bronze gates, which can now be seen in the St. Sophia Cathedral of Novgorod.

                      Oops so to speak laughing
      3. just exp
        just exp 30 November 2018 07: 12
        0
        Lukomorye is the western part of the Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug.
        is on medieval maps and this is not a secret.

        for example, a fragment of a card (a bunch of other cards on the network)

        1. Nick_R
          Nick_R 1 December 2018 19: 59
          0
          A seafront was called any river DELTA when flowing into the sea. One of the prototypes of the fabulous Pushkin's seashore is called the Don Delta. Including because there was a distant Russian darkness, the cockroach principality. There were a lot of oak trees before, but now they are almost all cut down.
    4. Basil50
      Basil50 29 November 2018 12: 56
      +1
      Why is this a truncated comment
      The resettlement of both Germanic and Scandinavian tribes passed from the Black Sea into the depths of Europe along the Danube. Tour Heyerdahl near Taganrog found a lot of things. It is quite possible that I also found an oak where Odin hung, well, or a stump from that oak.
      In Denmark and Scandinavia, the ancestors of modern Scandinavians settled down because they needed to hide somewhere and share the booty that they managed to plunder in Europe.
      1. Nick_R
        Nick_R 1 December 2018 20: 20
        0
        I have two hypotheses for the appearance of the Rus in Scandinavia. The first is the resettlement of the inhabitants of the defeated Russian Kaganate from the territory of the northern Azov region about a century before Rurik's return to Novgorod. Let me remind you that the Russian Kaganate fell under the invasion of the Ugrians, who were allies of the Khazar Kaganate. A little over a hundred years later, the famous prophetic Oleg "took revenge on the unreasonable Khazars."
        The second hypothesis is that the very legendary aces were quite familiar to the science of the Ostrogoths who lived in the northern Black Sea region and the Crimea. True, modern science claims that the Goths came from northern Europe. But what if everything is exactly the opposite: the Goths living in the Black Sea coast, under the pressure of nomads, were forced to go north or hide in the Crimea. German historians naturally could not allow one of the ancestors of the Germans to be close relatives of the Slavs. Therefore, they considered the Scandinavians to be close to their blood (true Aryans) and believed that their ancestors came from the north.
        By the way, the route of the Visigoths movement in many ways intersects with the magiation of part of the tribes of other inhabitants of the Black Sea region - Alans, the ancestors of the present Basques.
    5. Wened
      Wened 29 November 2018 19: 42
      +1
      good
      In fact, where did they come from and how did the ancestors of the Danes and Scandinavians find themselves in northern Europe. There was such a Tour Heyerdahl who was looking for and found a place where the God of the Scandinavians One lost his eye and hung on an oak.


      Tour Heyerdahl named this place, I do not remember exactly how it is not far from Taganrog.

      At the time of Svyatoslav, this Black Sea region was called Tmutarakan - one of the oldest cities in the Taman Peninsula, was located on the territory of the current village of Taman in the Krasnodar Territory. This name was when it was part of Kievan Rus.

      Probably the Prophetic Oleg correctly taught the squad laughing
  2. Above_name
    Above_name 29 November 2018 06: 06
    0
    Nevertheless, all those who have this haplogroup today come from one single a man who lived about 5 thousand years ago.


    But can there be such a mutation in several men in a relatively short time?
    1. Beringovsky
      Beringovsky 30 November 2018 02: 40
      0
      But can there be such a mutation in several men in a relatively short time?

      Not!!!! stop
      It’s only that they get the flu together))) wassat
  3. Albatroz
    Albatroz 29 November 2018 06: 57
    +6
    where did you go ...
    the passionarity of the northerners was of key importance to the development of Europe and Russia as part of Europe
    interesting analysis, numbers, parallels
    Thanks to the author
  4. BAI
    BAI 29 November 2018 09: 54
    +1
    Dolmen burial

    A little increase and there will be a spilled Stonehenge.
  5. Decimam
    Decimam 29 November 2018 11: 03
    +3

    Why not "This is how the periglacial tundra looked like, in which such mammoths were hunted by ancient aliens on the lands of Scandinavia.? "
    After all, research allows us to conclude that mammoths in the territory of Scandinavia were encountered at the beginning of the Holocene (Questions of paleontology, volume X, 1992). This is about 12 years ago. At this time, the Mesolithic hunters of the Arensburg culture explore the territory of Denmark and Skane and pave the way along the entire western coast of the Scandinavian Peninsula to the north. Why don't the Scandinavian pioneers meet mammoths?
    By the way, there is an interesting book on the subject of the article as well. - Lebedev G.S. The Viking Age in Northern Europe and in Russia.
    1. BAI
      BAI 29 November 2018 13: 30
      +1
      If you operate with mammoths, then the scene must be transferred to the territory of modern Moscow.
      In Zaraisk near Moscow, archaeologists made a sensational find. In the ancient dwelling was stored the skull of a mammoth with a treasure of flint tools inside. The age of artifacts is about 20 thousand years.
      1. Operator
        Operator 29 November 2018 14: 18
        +1
        These are the weapons of the inhabitants of the glacial tundra - carriers of the haplogroup С1b of the type found in the area of ​​the village of Kostenki, Voronezh Region, which had died out by the beginning of the melting of the 12 glacier thousands of years ago.
      2. Ua3qhp
        Ua3qhp 30 November 2018 22: 15
        0
        And if you go south for 500 km, then in the Kostenki these mammoths were massively fried.
  6. alebor
    alebor 29 November 2018 11: 32
    +2
    I think that the conclusion about the Vikings genetically "inherited" in the Vologda region is somewhat hasty, since the settlement of tribes in Northern Europe took place long before the Viking era, and the fact that the inhabitants of parts of Northern Europe that are not too distant from each other have similar genes is not surprising - they had common ancestors in ancient times, who, when settling, naturally mixed with other peoples living in the neighborhood, either assimilating them, or assimilating themselves, while losing language and traditional culture, but leaving genes.
  7. brn521
    brn521 29 November 2018 12: 09
    0
    In Russia, a study was also conducted of the genetic line of the Podgornevy family from the village of Annino, Vologda Oblast, who lived here for a very long time. It turned out that her men belong to the haplogroup I1a3b (Z138), which in the popular literature is often called the "Viking haplogroup" (I1a).

    all those who possess this haplogroup today are descended from one single man who lived about 5 thousand years ago.

    That's how we found out where the first Scandinavians came from smile ... One of the Podgornyev tribes, whose ancestor "walked to the left".
    1. just exp
      just exp 30 November 2018 07: 16
      0
      Yes, not the ancestor walked to the left, but the woman of the eubony kind was weak to the front. well, or was a trophy.
  8. Operator
    Operator 29 November 2018 12: 30
    0
    The haplogroups U2 and U5 are non-nuclear DNA (mitochondrial DNA) and characterize the female genealogy of the human population. Since women in the period under review were considered a legitimate trophy (to increase the number of ethnic group), it is impossible to track the movement of ethnic groups by mitDNA. For this, haplogroups of nuclear DNA are used that mark male heredity (for Europe, these are mainly C, E, G, J, I, N, R and some others).

    Until the middle of the third millennium BC The carriers of the Illyrian haplogroups I1 and I2 (two-thirds of the local population), the Aryan haplogroup R1a (one-third of the population) and a small number of carriers of the Caucasian haplogroup G (settled in the Alps and the British Isles) inhabited Western, Central and Northern Europe.

    The carriers of haplogroups I are the first settlers of Europe since 45000 years ago, they came from Asia and survived the last ice age in the so-called glacier shelter on the Mediterranean coast of the Andriatic (Illyria). After the beginning of the melting of the 12000 glacier years ago, other Asian immigrants joined them - the R1a carriers, who settled first in the Balkans and then in Central and Eastern Europe. At the same time, carriers of I and R1a in Central Europe lived in separate settlements, not mingling with each other.

    8000 years ago in Europe appeared carriers of Caucasian G, Hamitic E (Apennines, Balkans and Mediterranean islands) and Erbin / Celtic R1b (Volga and Northern Caucasus). Carriers E and G lived separately, carriers R1b mixed with R1a in a ratio of approximately 1 to 10.

    Most of the R1b carriers through the Caucasus again went to Asia, then to North Africa and 4500 years ago crossed to the Western Europe through the Strait of Gibraltar, after which it organized mass genocide to local carriers I, R1a, G and E (era of fragmented skulls). The survivors of I and R1a migrated to Scandinavia and Eastern Europe, where they mixed with the local R1a in a proportion of approximately 2 to 1.

    Migrants to Scandinavia, together with part of R1b, are just the ancestors of modern Danes, Swedes, Norwegians and Icelanders.

    The next Asians - Samoyed / Sami N2 tribes appeared in the north of Europe 4 thousands of years ago, Finno-Ugric tribes N1c1 - 3 thousands of years ago. The latter settled in the territory of today's Finland, and also mixed in the proportion of 1 to 1 with part of the carriers of R1a, forming the Balts, Komi-Permyaks, etc., and also became part of the carriers R1a and I in the proportion of 6 to 1, forming the Russian people .

    5000 thousands of years ago, the carriers of R1a (self-name of the aria, the codename Indo-Europeans) - residents of the Black Sea region domesticated the horse, invented the wheel and the cart. 3500 For thousands of years, the Aryans migrated to Central Asia, Iran, Hindustan, Central Asia, Asia Minor and Central. Europe, assimilating culturally and linguistically the local population.

    3000 years ago, the carriers of R1a (self-designation of a Vendian) - residents of the Carpathians migrated on foot to the territory of today's East Germany up to the southern tip of Jutland, as well as to the north-east of Italy to the Gulf of Venice. 2000 years ago, the carriers R1a and I2 (self-designation of glory) - residents of the mouth of the Danube migrated to the territory of the former Yugoslavia. 1500 years ago, they (the self-name of Anta) migrated to Bulgaria and Greece.

    In connection with the indicated features of migrations, starting from the 6 of the millennium BC. various subclades of R1a carriers formed:
    - Eastern European;
    - Central European;
    - Scandinavian;
    - Black Sea;
    - Carpathian.

    Currently, the eastern and central European subclades of R1a are strongly mixed among themselves due to the intensive migration of Slavic tribes. In contrast to them, the places of resettlement of carriers of the Scandinavian, Black Sea and Carpathian subclades clearly differ in their geography - respectively, Scandinavia, Asia and the southern coast of the Baltic.

    A small number of the Scandinavian subclade R1a is also widespread in the British Isles, in Brittany and Sicily (the places of resettlement of the Scandinavians), the Black Sea subclade - in Austria (the origin of Hallstatt culture) and in the Volga region (part of the Tatars and Bashkirs).

    In connection with the difference in the subclades of haplogroups, one can always determine the geographical origin of one or another of their carriers and the formation of modern ethnic groups. In particular, in the territory of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus (including the Ladoga area), no burial sites of carriers of the Scandinavian subclades R1a and I1 (dated earlier than the 10 century AD) have been discovered so far, which unequivocally testifies to the non-Scandinavian origin of the Rus led with Rurik.
    1. Keyser soze
      Keyser soze 29 November 2018 22: 09
      0
      which clearly indicates the non-Scandinavian origin of the Rus tribe led by Rurik.


      Oh, I brought water from behind 9 mountains to write nonsense at the end. "Russ" is the Byzantine name of the Varangian squads staggering to rob wherever possible in the Balkans and at the borders of Byzantium. At first they traded with Byzantium, through the Volga Bulgaria, but then the Khazars showed up and it became easier to trade across the Dnieper and down. And then they were hired to serve in the emperor's guard. Any way ... here are the links of one modern genius historian. Bushwaker, Russian, I don't know his real name, but youtube channel for connoisseurs of history. And here is a lecture about Vikings and Varangians -
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 30 November 2018 09: 16
      0
      Quote: Operator
      which clearly indicates the non-Scandinavian origin of the Rus tribe led by Rurik.

      The Scandinavian origin of the Rurik dynasty in the scientific community is now almost no doubt. Genetic studies of the descendants of Rurik showed that most of them, namely those whose pedigree is confirmed most reliably, have a haplogroup originating from the Uppsala region. http://tatur.su/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Rurikids.pdf
      "Normanists" and "anti-Normanists" are now arguing, basically, what role the Scandinavians played in the formation of the Russian ethnos, nothing more. This question seems to me personally more important and interesting than the genetic origin of Rurik, whose very existence is questioned by some researchers (for example, I. Danilevsky).
      Quote: Operator
      In particular, in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus (including the Ladoga area), not a single burial of the Scandinavian subclades R1a and I1 has been found.

      And which ones were found? Who did the research and when? I am ready to familiarize myself with their results, even if you send me to "reformat", just give a specific link to the article or at least tell me its title and author - I will find it myself. There is neither time nor desire to re-read the entire "reformat".
      1. Operator
        Operator 30 November 2018 13: 04
        +1
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Genetic studies of the descendants of Rurik showed that most of them, namely those whose pedigree is most reliably confirmed, have a haplogroup originating from the Uppsala region

        What haplogroup are you talking about - about the Ugrofin N1c1, which was found in some of the alleged descendants of Rurik (in the other part, the Aryan R1a was discovered)?

        For your information: ugrofinns live in Finland, mestizos ugrofinns with R1a - in the Baltic states, Udmurtia, Mordovia and further to the East.

        Where did you find ugrofinns in the Scandinavian Uppsala, and even with the South Baltic subclade as part of the alleged descendants of Rurik? laughing

        PS Links to haplogroups and subclades of bone remains (including those published on the "Reformat" website) can be found using the search engine in Yandex or Google.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 30 November 2018 13: 55
          0
          Quote: Operator
          What haplogroup are you talking about - about the Ugrofin N1c1,

          Do you read the article by reference yourself or do you quote from it? To bring?
          Please.
          Close genetic relatives of Rurikovich N1c1, haplotypes
          which are marked with the value DYS458 = 18 and which can be called
          Protoryurikovichi are the following persons: Henriksson - [ancestor] Mats
          Larsson, 1755-1816, Igelsj, Finland, Dion, Unknown - Adoption, Östlund - Jon
          Jonson, 1584, Sweden, Peterson, Sweden, Pirttivaara - Petter Ivanov Baron, 1847-
          1899, Karkku, Salmi, Finland, Korsstrom - Erik Johansson 1670 Nagu, Finland,
          Dedavenport-Stuart - Thomas Stuart 1827 - 1908 Rothesay, Bute, Scotland, Håkan
          Jonsson Werme, b. 1550, Sweden [28].
          30
          Closest to the haplotype Rurik N1c1 Peterson haplotypes from
          Sweden, Korsstrom, whose ancestors moved to Finland from Sweden
          (Gotland), Didavinport-Stewart (Scotland) and Pritvaara (Finland).
          Here also DYF395S1 = 15 18. The ancestors of Didavinport-Stuart lived in the same place
          is the patrimonial nest of the Scottish clan of the Stuarts.
          Thus, there is no doubt that the ancestor of Rurik N1c1, whoever he
          neither was descended from Sweden.
          To this should be added that according to the base www.yhrd.org 12-marker
          гаплотипы 14-23-14-11-11-13-11-12-10-14-14-16, сходные с гаплотипами
          Rurik N1c1, most often found in the area of ​​Uppsala, the capital of the ancient
          Swedish kingdom. Uppsala is the administrative center.
          modern uppland province. By the way, Roslagen refers to the same
          provinces. Without a doubt, these haplotypes should also be attributed to the Scandinavian
          branches, as among the tested Swedes N1c1 there are almost no representatives
          other branches and therefore the Uppsala region may be the center
          distribution of representatives of this branch.

          Concerning R1a at Rurikovich:
          The common ancestor of the Volkonsky, Obolensky and Baryatinsky ones is Yuri, the prince
          Tarusa, son of St. Michael Vsevolodovich, Prince of Chernigov. In 1927
          Mr. N. A. Baumgarten expressed the opinion that all the genealogies of these princes were
          compiled in the XVI century., and their construction to Prince Michael of Chernigov is
          a mistake or even a “forgery” of compilers. According to the scientist, the statement
          legends about their origins could be contributed by the existence in these
          birth in the XIII-XIV centuries. ancestors with the names of "Michael", which the compilers
          pedigrees in the XVI century. could compare with Prince Michael of Chernigov.
          At the same time, they did not care about hiding the "monstrous anachronism", which
          appeared in their paintings

          According to the chronicles, Mikhail of Chernigov generally had only one son - Rostislav, who settled as a result in Hungary. Yes, and in time - between Michael and Yuri fit two generations. There is no information about Yuri, his very existence is hypothetical. Ask about the problems of the pedigree of Yuri Tarusa, doubts about its existence were expressed in the XIX century, long before the publication of Volkov’s work. And then suddenly it turns out - Opanki! - that just his descendants differ in the haplogroup from the rest of Rurik, the accuracy of whose pedigree has not been questioned. Or will you start blaming princess Irina for adultery? In my opinion, this will simply be dishonorable - defaming the name of the Russian princess, daughter, wife and mother of the supreme rulers, Russia and Sweden in order to confirm their own painful ambitions. In those days, women of royal blood knew what their duty to the clan and the state was and they performed it conscientiously.
          And then some here in order to "prove" that Rurik was a Slav (who cares at all?), Are ready to make Yaroslav the Wise a cuckold. I hope you are not one of them?
          About the links I have long understood. They are not, because there was no research. And are you either in good faith mistaken (I want to believe that), or deliberately cast a shadow on the fence, which on your part would be simply dishonorable.
          1. Operator
            Operator 30 November 2018 14: 45
            0
            I didn’t understand anything - what is the relation of the haplogroups / subclades of today's Swedes, who are still related to Finland, to the haplogroups / subclades of the Rus tribe that existed from 6 to 9 century A.D. on the opposite shore of the Baltic Sea?

            Over the past 1100 years, Swedish colonists have been able to mix with the colonized Finns for the nth number of times.

            To prove the origin of a part of supposedly Rurikovich from Scandinavian residents, their haplogroups / subclades should be compared with haplogroups / subclades from bone remains found in burials in Sweden and dated no later than the 9 century.

            PS Your memories of standing with a candle in Ingigerda’s bedroom during her Scandinavian boyfriend Olaf’s stay in Novgorod are especially impressive laughing
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 30 November 2018 15: 14
              0
              Quote: Operator
              Understood nothing

              For you, it seems to be a normal condition. And this says a person who is fond of DNA genealogy. wassat Do I need to explain what haplotypes and their markers are? You perfectly understand (must understand) that DNA mutates constantly, in each generation and that by the number of these mutations, common for specific relatives, you can determine the degree of kinship and the time at which their common ancestor lived ... I first, a sinful affair, I thought that you even figured it out, but no. Pechalka.
              So, I translate what is written, from normal Russian to primitive. Rurik also had ancestors who had the same haplogroup as him, had cousins ​​and second cousins ​​and more distant relatives, whose descendants live on planet Earth to this day and, oddly enough, mostly they live in the Uppsala region, from what can be concluded that their common ancestor, and therefore the ancestor of Rurik, most likely comes from the same place.
              So see?
  9. Operator
    Operator 29 November 2018 12: 45
    0
    "... all those who possess this haplogroup today come from one single man" - naturally, not from two laughing

    This applies to all haplogroups and their subclades without exception - their first carrier is always the only man in whose body a mutation in nuclear DNA first occurred.
  10. Doliva63
    Doliva63 29 November 2018 16: 41
    +1
    Quote: The same Lech
    There was such a Thor Heyerdahl who sought and found a place where the god of the Scandinavians Odin lost an eye and hung on an oak.

    Was ... smile with him our unforgettable Yuri Senkevich sailed on Kon-Tiki ... romance ...
    did they find the eye of this God Odin?

    Is T. Heyerdahl a romantic? belay How did he fight in Norway, read?
  11. Operator
    Operator 30 November 2018 12: 46
    +1
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    V.A.Kokhanovsky
    "Thematic classification of Scandinavian borrowings in Russian"

    Why pull an owl on a globe - this monograph only shows the alleged borrowings from the Scandinavian languages ​​without breaking down the borrowing time, which can be after Peter the Great.

    But this is not even the point: in the text of his pseudoscientific monograph, Kokhanovsky by the ears attracts into the structure of supposedly borrowings such primordial Slavic words as "stranded", "rope", "howl", "flax", etc., those who wish can enjoy themselves. complete lack of professionalism of the author of the libel
    https://cyberleninka.ru/article/v/tematicheskaya-klassifikatsiya-skandinavskih-zaimstvovaniy-v-russkom-yazyke
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 30 November 2018 15: 20
      0
      Quote: Operator
      Kokhanovsky by the ears attracts such primordially Slavic words as "stranded", "rope", "howl", "flax" into the structure of supposedly borrowings

      Yes, you have time to write a thesis on linguistics. Defend yourself - brag. In the meantime, in attracting you by your ears and irresponsible trills, you, and not Kokhanovsky, were noticed and caught.
      1. Operator
        Operator 30 November 2018 15: 52
        +1
        Shpakovsky and I wrote to you in purely Russian language that the Scandinavians include carriers of the Aryan haplogroup R1a (up to a quarter of the total local population), whose native language was Sanskrit (one of the dialects), which naturally influenced the Scandinavian peninsula, which naturally influenced into today's hybrid Scandinavian languages. Therefore, it is not surprising that part of the vocabulary of the Scandinavian and Slavic languages ​​coincides.

        And then - you have to be a frostbitten "linguist" to become, like Kokhanovsky, the author of a monograph on borrowing from Scandinavian languages, in which absolutely Scandinavian analogs of allegedly borrowed Russian words are not given from the word.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 30 November 2018 18: 53
          0
          Well, again for the fish money. sad
          You have been repeatedly told that genetic affiliation does not mean ethnic affiliation. And certainly does not indicate the language of communication.
          Regarding Kohanovsky - God bless him - don’t like it. There is a lot of literature on this subject; I brought it only because I downloaded it in due time to read it and forgot to delete it. Look at other sources - they will explain to you in any way that Scandinavian borrowings have come to Russian, mainly in terms related to the sea and trade, and, to a lesser extent, to military affairs and public administration.
          However, if you don’t believe anyone except reformatting, you don’t need to read anything.
          Words you do not understand, do not hear the arguments ...
          Quote: Operator
          So present the haplogroup / subclade of Rurik's ancestors from the graves no later than the 9 century

          Do I need it? Well, turn on your head, finally, think.
          There are Rurik's descendants, most of whom, whose genealogy is confirmed most reliably, have a certain, same, haplotype with a certain marker.
          This same haplotype with the same marker is found in other people. It is obvious that Rurik and these people are in blood kinship after several tens of generations - about thirty or forty cousins.
          Further. The concentration of these haplotypes with this marker is noted in the Uppsala region. What does this mean? About the fact that their common ancestor lived on Rugen or Lower Neman, and in Sweden, in the Uppsala region, did they all come together by chance just in time for the beginning of the 21st century? In my opinion, no. In my opinion, it says just that a certain man with such a haplotype, who first formed this marker, lived there, in Sweden, left offspring there, among which, in some kind of tribe, was someone Rurik, who had come on Russia and founded there his princely house. And Rurik's relatives remained for the most part there, in Sweden, and continued to multiply, which, in fact, is indicated by the concentration of this haplotype with this marker in these places. So it is difficult to understand? Or does pride interfere?
          If you don’t understand this time either, I’ll consider you to be just a troll, who decided to make fun of me and devour my time. I will treat you appropriately, because in any case (a troll or just a stupid person), you and I will seriously talk with you about the subject of discussions and with arguments.
  12. Operator
    Operator 30 November 2018 15: 42
    0
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Rurik also had ancestors

    So present the haplogroup / subclade of Rurik's ancestors from burials no later than the 9 century (before declaring the level of my competence in the matter under consideration).
    1. Ua3qhp
      Ua3qhp 30 November 2018 22: 25
      0
      Question. Why do they think that the Russians borrowed everything, including the Scandinavian names, no one considered the opposite option?
      1. Operator
        Operator 3 December 2018 11: 51
        0
        Your version is quite probable - in the collection of sagas "The Circle of the Earth" the Scandinavians themselves recorded the fact that in the first millennium AD. Western Slavs-Vendians in the tail and in the mane drove the Danes on the coast of the Jutland Peninsula, at the same time teaching them a great and powerful language.

        In any case, as the main one, I support the third option - the coincidence of some words in the Slavic and Scandinavian languages ​​is based on the unity of the original source - Sanskrit (its dialect).
  13. Usher
    Usher 2 January 2019 20: 54
    0
    Quote: Nick_R
    Tour Heerdahl, shortly before his death, was on an expedition to Azov and they say he found a lot of confirmation of his hypothesis. And it is actually such that the very ice-free warm sea, where, according to Scandinavian legends, the ancestors of the Scandinavians came from, it was the Sea of ​​Azov.
    Asa proper is the ancestral gods of the Scandinavians who lived near the same sea. As you know, and now there is the same city of aces (Azov) and the sea of ​​the same name.
    I would also note that the old Russian Az meant "I", i.e. acted as a person's self-identification. The same word meant the first letter of the alphabet and the number 1. By the way, this number is pronounced as "one". It is symbolic, given that Odin is in Scandinavian mythology the supreme god, the first of the Ases.

    Lol is another phenomenological truth, darub and radover?
  14. skeptic31
    skeptic31 4 February 2019 00: 01
    0
    The author was fascinated by the story that the Scandinavians themselves wrote to themselves and about themselves. In fact, everything is far from being so clear and the research data only confirm this. In this case, the most interesting thing is not what axes were there, but who originally inhabited Scandinavia and Denmark. So during the time of the Roman Empire, nothing was known about any Vikings. Their appearance, most likely, is associated with the migration to these lands through the territory of Denmark of representatives of the more militant haplogroup R1b. It happened somewhere in the 4-5 centuries AD. Those. relatively not so long ago. And although haplogroup I1 is really Scandinavian here and in the North of Russia, it was present much earlier. This is me to the fact that you should not be guided by this haplogroup in your argumentation.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 4 February 2019 00: 03
      0
      Quote: skeptic31
      So during the time of the Roman Empire, nothing was known about any Vikings.

      Wait. But what about the song: "London Bridge is Falling, Falling"?
  15. Ersh
    Ersh 23 September 2020 20: 10
    0
    People, and may wonder how the glaciers melted? The same data is available. Well, then everything is simple - the ice melted, the grass grew, the deer came to graze. And the hunters came for them. Someone came from the east and southeast, from the territory of present-day Russia. Someone came to the south, for example, from the territory of today's Germany and Denmark. And then they began to mix.
    And about who previously mastered navigation. I have a strong suspicion that the southern coast of the Baltic thawed out earlier than the northern one, that rivers and lakes in the territory of present-day Russia appeared earlier than in Scandinavia :) Or these "" on thawed lands sat and waited for Scandinavia to thaw out, some then the Vikings will teach them everything? Including building ships and walking on the sea?