The best tanks of the Second World Discovery

89

Constant attempts to bury the idea tank do not find their realization. Despite the rapid evolution of anti-tank weapons, there is still no more reliable means to cover the soldiers than heavy armored vehicles.

I offer you a review of the outstanding tanks of the Second World War, created on the basis of the Discovery programs - "Killer Tanks: Steel Fist" and the Military Channel - "Ten best tanks of the twentieth century." Undoubtedly, all the cars from the review are worthy of attention. But I noticed that when describing tanks, experts do not consider his combat history in its entirety, but they only talk about those episodes of the Second World War when this machine was able to show itself in the best possible way. It is logical to immediately break the war into periods and consider which tank was the best and when.



I draw your attention to two important points:
First, do not confuse the strategy and technical characteristics of machines. A red flag over Berlin does not mean that the Germans were weak and did not have good equipment. It also follows that the possession of the best tanks in the world does not mean that your army will advance victoriously. You can trite crush amount. Do not forget that the army is a system; competent use by the adversary of its diverse forces can put you in a difficult position.

Secondly, all disputes, “who is stronger than the IS-2 or the Tiger, do not make much sense. Tanks rarely fight with tanks. More often, their opponents are enemy defensive lines, fortifications, artillery batteries, infantry and automotive vehicles. In World War II, all tank losses were due to anti-tank artillery (which is logical - when the number of tanks went to tens of thousands, the number of guns was hundreds of thousands - more than an order of magnitude!). Another fierce enemy of tanks is mines. About 25% of military vehicles were blown up on them. I wrote a few percent on my account aviation. How much then was left for tank battles ?!

Hence the conclusion that a tank battle near Prokhorovka is a rare exotic. Currently, this trend continues - instead of the anti-tank "forty-point" act RPGs.

Well, now let's go to our favorite cars.

Period 1939-1940. Blitzkrieg


... Pre-dawn mist, fog, shooting and the roar of engines. On the morning of May 10, the Wehrmacht 1940 breaks into Holland. Belgium fell through the 17 days, the remnants of the British Expeditionary Force evacuated across the English Channel. June 14 German tanks appeared on the streets of Paris ...

One of the conditions of the “lightning war” is the special tactics of using tanks: the unprecedented concentration of armored vehicles in the direction of the main attacks and the perfectly coordinated actions of the Germans allowed the “steel claws” of Goth and Guderian to crash into the defense hundreds of kilometers in advance. . Unique tactical reception required special technical solutions. German armored vehicles were necessarily equipped with radio stations, while the tank battalions were air traffic controllers for emergency communication with the Luftwaffe.

It was at this time that the “finest hour” of Panzerkampfwagen III and Panzerkampfwagen IV fell. Behind such clumsy names are the terrible fighting vehicles that have rolled up European roads, the icy expanses of Russia and the sands of the Sahara on their tracks.

The best tanks of the Second World Discovery


The PzKpfw III, better known as the T-III, is a light tank with a 37 mm gun. Reservations from all angles - 30 mm. Superior quality - Speed ​​(40 km / h on the highway). Thanks to the sophisticated optics of Carl Zeiss, ergonomic crew jobs and the presence of a radio station, the Troika could successfully fight much heavier vehicles. But with the advent of new opponents, the flaws of the T-III appeared more clearly. The Germans replaced the 37 mm guns with the 50 mm guns and covered the tank with mounted screens - temporary measures gave their results, T-III fought for several more years. By 1943, the T-III was discontinued due to the complete exhaustion of its resource for modernization. Total German industry has released 5000 "triples".




The PzKpfw IV, which became the most massive Panzervaffe tank, looked much more serious - the Germans had time to build 8700 machines. Combining all the advantages of a lighter T-III, the Quartet had high firepower and security - the thickness of the frontal plate was gradually brought to 80 mm, and the shells of its 75 mm long-barreled gun pierced the armor of enemy tanks like a foil (by the way, 1133 early modifications with a short-barreled gun).

The weak points of the car are too thin sides and feed (only 30 mm on the first modifications), the designers neglected the inclination of the armor plates for the sake of manufacturability and convenience of the crew.

Seven thousand tanks of this type were left lying on the battlefields of the Second World War, but the T-IV story did not end there - the Quartet were exploited in the armies of France and Czechoslovakia until the beginning of the 1950-s and even took part in the Six-Day Arab-Israeli War 1967 of the year.

Period 1941-1942. Red Dawn


“... from three sides we fired at the Russian iron monsters, but it was all in vain. The Russian giants were getting closer and closer. One of them approached our tank, hopelessly stuck in a swampy pond, and without any hesitation drove along it, pressing the tracks into the mud ... "

- General Reinhard, Commander of the 41 Wehrmacht Tank Corps

... 20 August 1941, the KV tank commanded by Senior Lieutenant Zinoviy Kolobanov, blocked the road to Gatchina a column of German tanks 40. When this unprecedented battle was over, the 22 of the tank was burning on the side of the road, and our HF, having received 156 direct hits of enemy shells, returned to the disposal of his division ...


In the summer of 1941, the KV tank crushed the elite units of the Wehrmacht with the same impunity, as if it rolled out onto the Borodino field in the 1812 year. Invincible, invincible and prohibitively powerful. Until the end of 1941, in all the armies of the world there were no weapons at all, capable of stopping the Russian 45-ton monster. KV was 2 times heavier than the largest tank of the Wehrmacht.

Armor KV is a wonderful song of steel and technology. 75 mm steel steel from all angles! Frontal armor plates had an optimal angle of inclination, which further increased the KV's armor resistance — the German 37 mm anti-tank guns did not even take it at close range, and the 50 mm guns were no further than 500 meters. At the same time, the long-barreled 76 mm F-34 (ZIS-5) gun made it possible to hit any German tank of that period from 1,5 kilometers from any direction.

If battles like the legendary battle of Zinovy ​​Kolobanov occurred regularly, then 235 KV tanks of the Southern Military District could completely destroy Panzervaffe in the summer of 1941. The technical capabilities of the KV tanks allowed this in theory. Alas, not so simple. Remember - we said that tanks rarely fight with tanks ...


In addition to the invulnerable KV, the Red Army had an even more terrible tank - the great warrior T-34.

"... There is nothing worse than a tank battle against superior enemy forces. Not in numbers - it didn’t matter to us, we got used to it. But against better cars it’s awful ... Russian tanks are so agile, they climb up at close distances down the slope or overcome the swamp faster than you rotate the turret. And through the noise and crash you hear the clanging of shells on the armor all the time. When they get into our tank, you often hear a deafening explosion and the roar of burning fuel too loud to hear deaths screams uh ipazha ... "

- the opinion of the German tanker from the 4 Tank Division, destroyed by T-34 tanks in the battle of Mtsensk 11 in October 1941 of the year.


Neither the scope nor the objectives of this article allow to fully cover the history of the T-34 tank. Obviously, the Russian monster had no analogues in the 1941 year: 500-strong diesel, unique booking, 76 mm F-34 gun (generally similar to the KV tank) and wide tracks - all these technical solutions provided the T-34 with the optimal ratio of mobility, fire power and security. Even separately, these parameters were higher for the T-34 than for any Panzerwae tank.

The main thing - the Soviet designers managed to create a tank exactly the way it was needed by the Red Army. T-34 perfectly matched the conditions of the Eastern Front. Extreme simplicity and manufacturability of the design allowed in the shortest possible time to start mass production of these combat vehicles, as a result - T-34 were easy to operate, numerous and omnipresent.

Only in the first year of the war, by the summer of 1942, the Red Army received about thirty-fours around 15000, and in total more than 84 000 T-34 of all modifications were released.


The journalists of the Discovery program jealously reacted to the successes of the Soviet tank building, constantly hinting that the American design of the Christie is at the heart of a successful tank. In a joking manner, the Russian “rudeness” and “uncriticalness” got: “Well! I did not have time to get into the hatch - it was all scratched! ”The Americans forget that convenience was not a priority feature of armored vehicles on the Eastern Front; the fierce nature of the fighting did not allow tankmen to think about such trifles. The main thing - do not burn in the tank.

There were thirty-fours and much more serious flaws. Transmission is the weakest link in the T-34. German design school preferred the front location of the gearbox, closer to the driver. Soviet engineers went on a more efficient way - the transmission and engine were compactly located in an isolated compartment in the T-34 aft. There was no need for a long drive shaft through the entire hull of the tank; simplified design, reduced machine height. Isn't it a great technical solution?

Cardan was not needed. But were needed thrust control. At T-34 they reached 5 meters in length! Imagine what effort was required to make the driver? But this did not create any special problems - in an extreme situation, a person is able to run on his hands and row with his ears. But what the Soviet tankers could withstand could not withstand the metal. Under the influence of monstrous loads of thrust were torn. As a result, many T-34s went into battle on a single, pre-selected, transmission. During the battle, they preferred not to touch the gearbox at all - in the opinion of tank veterans, it was better to sacrifice mobility than to suddenly turn into a standing target.

T-34 completely ruthless tank, both in relation to the enemy, and in relation to its own crew. It remains only to admire the courage of tankers.

Year 1943. Menagerie


"... we went around the beam through and ran into the" Tiger. " Having lost several T-34, our battalion went back ... "

- frequent description of meetings with PzKPfw VI from the memoirs of tank crews



1943 year, the time of the great tank battles. In an effort to regain lost technical superiority, Germany is creating by this time two new types of “super-weapons” - the heavy tanks “Tiger” and “Panther”.

Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger Ausf. H1 was created as a heavy breakthrough tank capable of destroying any adversary and taking the Red Army to flight. By Hitler’s personal order, the thickness of the frontal armor plate should have been at least 100 mm, the sides and stern of the tank were protected by eight centimeters of metal. The main weapon - 88 mm gun KwK 36, created on the basis of a powerful anti-aircraft gun. Its capabilities are indicated by the fact that when firing a captured Tiger gun, five successive hits on a target of 40 × 50 cm from 1100 m were achieved. In addition to high flatness, KwK 36 inherited a high rate of anti-aircraft gun. In combat conditions, "Tiger" fired eight shells per minute, which was a record for such large tank guns. Six crew members were conveniently located in an invulnerable steel box, mass 57 tons, looking at the wide Russian spaces through the high-quality optics Carl Zeiss.


The bulky German monster is often described as a slow and clumsy tank. In reality, "Tiger" was one of the fastest combat vehicles of the Second World War. 700-strong engine "Maybach" accelerated "Tiger" to 45 km / h on the highway. No less fast and maneuverable, this thick-skinned tank was on rough terrain, thanks to an eight-speed hydromechanical gearbox (almost automatic, like a Mercedes!) And complicated onboard clutches, with a double power supply.

At first glance, the design of the suspension and tracked propulsion was a parody of itself - caterpillars 0,7 meters wide requiring the installation of a second row of rollers on each side. In this form, the "Tiger" did not fit on the railway platform, each time it was necessary to remove the "ordinary" tracks and the outer row of rollers, instead of installing thin "transport" tracks. It remains to be amazed at the strength of those guys who “smashed” the 60-ton colossus in the field. But there were also advantages to the strange suspension of the “Tiger” - two rows of skating rinks ensured a high smoothness of the course, our veterans witnessed cases when the “Tiger” shot on the move.

The Tiger had one more flaw that frightened the Germans. It was the inscription in the technical note in each vehicle: “The tank is worth 800 000 Reichsmarks. Keep him safe!"

According to the perverted logic of Goebbels, the tankers should have been very happy to learn that their "Tiger" is like seven T-IV tanks.

Realizing that the "Tiger" is a rare and exotic weapon of professionals, the German tank builders created a simpler and cheaper tank, with the intention of turning it into a mass medium Wehrmacht tank.

Panzerkampfwagen V "Panther" is still the subject of heated debate. The technical capabilities of the car do not cause any complaints - with the 44 mass, the tons of Panther exceeded the T-34 mobility, developing the 55-60 km / h on a good highway. The tank was armed with a 75 mm cannon KwK 42 with a barrel length 70 caliber! An armor piercing projectile fired from its infernal vent flew 1 a kilometer in the first second - with such TTX the Panther gun could pry through any Allied tank at a distance of over 2 kilometers. Panther's reservation is also considered worthy by most sources - the thickness of the forehead varied from 60 to 80 mm, while the slopes of the armor reached 55 °. The board was defended weaker - at the level of T-34, so it was easily hit by Soviet anti-tank weapons. The lower part of the side was additionally protected by two rows of rollers on each side.




The whole question in the very appearance of "Panther" - did the Reich need such a tank? Perhaps you should focus on upgrading and increasing the production of proven T-IV? Or spend money to build invincible "Tigers"? As it seems to me, the answer is simple - in 1943, nothing could save Germany from defeat.

Total built less 6000 "Panther", which was clearly not enough to saturate the Wehrmacht. The situation was aggravated by the drop in the quality of armor of tanks due to the lack of resources and alloying additives.

"Panther" was the quintessence of advanced ideas and new technologies. In March, at night 1945, near Balaton, hundreds of Panthers, equipped with night vision devices, attacked the Soviet troops at night. Even this did not help.

Year 1944. Go to Berlin!


Changed conditions required new means of warfare. By this time, Soviet troops had already received a heavy tank breakthrough EC-2, armed with 122 mm howitzer. If an ordinary tank projectile hit caused a local destruction of the wall, then the 122 millimeter-shaped howitzer projectile demolished the entire house. What was required for successful assault operations.

Another formidable weapon of the tank is the 12,7 mm DShK machine gun mounted on the turret on the pivot mount. The bullets of a large-caliber machine gun reached the enemy even behind thick brick masonry. The DShK greatly increased the capabilities of Is-2 in battles on the streets of European cities.


The thickness of the reservation EC-2 reached 120 mm. One of the main achievements of Soviet engineers is the cost-effectiveness and small metal intensity of the EC-2 design. With a mass comparable to that of the Panther, the Soviet tank was much more seriously defended. But too dense layout required the placement of fuel tanks in the department of management - when penetrating the armor, the crew of the Is-2 had little chance to survive. Especially risked the driver, who did not have its own hatch.

The liberators of the EC-2 became the personification of the Victory and were in service with the Soviet army for almost 50 years.

The next hero, МХNUMX "Sherman", managed to make war on the Eastern Front, the first cars of this type came to the USSR back in the 4 year (the number of MNNXX supplied under Lend-Lease was 1942 tanks). But fame came to him only after a massive use in the West in 4.



Sherman is the pinnacle of rationality and pragmatism. All the more surprising that the United States, which had 50 tanks at the beginning of the war, managed to create such a balanced combat vehicle and rivet 1945 49 “Shermans” of various modifications to 000 year. For example, the Sherman with a gasoline engine was used in the ground forces, while the Marine Corps received a modification М4А2, equipped with a diesel engine. American engineers rightly believed that this would greatly simplify the operation of tanks - the diesel could be easily found from the sailors, unlike high-octane gasoline. By the way, it was this modification МХNUMXА4 that entered the Soviet Union.

No less famous are the special versions of the Sherman - the tank hunter Firefly, armed with the British 17-pound cannon; The Jumbo is a heavily armored version in an assault body kit and even an amphibious Duplex Drive.

Compared to the fast-moving forms of the T-34, the Sherman is a tall and awkward goof. Possessing the same weaponry, the American tank significantly loses the mobility of the T-34.



What did Emcha (so our soldiers called МХNUMX) like so much to the Red Army commanders that the elite units, such as the 4 Guards Mechanized Corps and the 1 Guards Tank Corps, were completely transferred to them? The answer is simple: Sherman had an optimal balance of reservations, firepower, mobility and ... reliability. In addition, the Sherman was the first tank with a hydraulically driven turret (this provided special precision guidance) and a gun stabilizer in the vertical plane - tankers recognized that in a duel situation, their shot was always the first. Of the other advantages of the Sherman, which are usually not listed in the tables, there was little noise, which made it possible to use it in operations where stealth is needed.



The Middle East gave Sherman a second life, where this tank served until the 70s of the 20th century, taking part in more than one dozen battles. The last Shermans completed their military service in Chile at the end of the twentieth century.

Year 1945. Ghosts of future wars


Many people expected that the long-awaited and lasting peace would come after the monstrous sacrifices and destruction of the Second World War. Alas, their expectations were not met. On the contrary, ideological, economic and religious contradictions have become even more acute.

It was well understood by those who created new weapons systems - so the military-industrial complex of the victorious countries did not stop for a minute. Even when the Victory was already evident, and fascist Germany was beating in its death agony in the design bureau and at the factories theoretical and experimental research continued, the development of new types of weapons was carried out. Special attention was paid to armored forces that had proven themselves well during the war. Starting with bulky and uncontrollable multi-turbo monsters and ugly tankettes, in just a few years tank construction has reached a fundamentally different level. where again faced a lot of threats, because anti-tank weapons successfully evolved. In this regard, it is curious to look at the tanks with which the Allies ended the war, what conclusions were made and what measures were taken.


In the USSR, in May 1945, the first batch of EC-3 was rolled out of the factory workshops of Tankograd. The new tank was a further upgrade of the heavy EC-2. This time, the designers went even further - the slope of the welded sheets, especially in the front of the case, was brought to the maximum possible. Thick 110-mm frontal armor plates were positioned in such a way that a three-pitch, tapered, forward nose was formed, called the pike nose. The tower received a new flat shape, which provided the tank with even better counter-missile protection. The driver got his own hatch, and all of the viewing slots were replaced with modern periscope instruments.

The EC-3 was a few days late by the end of the fighting in Europe, but the new beautiful tank took part in the Victory Parade on a par with the legendary T-34 and KV, still covered in soot of recent battles. Visual change of generations.


Another interesting novelty was the T-44 (in my opinion - a landmark event in the Soviet tank building). Actually, it was developed in 1944 year, but did not have time to take part in the war. Only in 1945, the troops received a sufficient number of these excellent tanks.

A major drawback of the T-34 was the tower shifted forward. This increased the load on the front rollers and made it impossible to strengthen the frontal armor of the T-34 - the “thirty-fours” ran to the end of the war with the 45 mm forehead. Realizing that the problem just does not solve, the designers decided on a complete recomposition of the tank. Thanks to the cross-sectional placement of the engine, the size of the logging equipment decreased, which allowed the turret to be mounted in the center of the tank. The load on the rollers leveled off, the frontal armor plate increased to 120 mm (!), And its inclination increased to 60 °. Improved working conditions for the crew. T-44 became the prototype of the famous T-54 / 55 family.


The specific situation has developed overseas. The Americans guessed that in addition to the successful "Sherman", the army required a new, heavier tank. As a result, the M26 "Pershing" appeared, a large medium tank (sometimes considered heavy) with powerful armor and a new 90 mm gun. This time the Americans could not create a masterpiece. Technically, the "Pershing" remained at the level of "Panther", while possessing somewhat greater reliability. The tank had problems with mobility and maneuverability - the M26 was equipped with an engine from the Sherman, while having a lot of tons on the 10. The limited use of “Pershing” on the Western Front began only in February 1945. Next time the Pershing went into battle already in Korea.
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  1. +16
    13 December 2022 05: 45
    Let me quote the words of Winston Churchill. Back in 1945, when asked which weapon of the Second World War was the best, he said: "There were 3 of them - an English cannon, a German Messerschmitt aircraft and a Russian T-34 tank." And he added that if he understands how the first two were created, then it is absolutely incomprehensible how the third was created .. "- Churchill, of course, cannot be called a tank expert, but the fact that he was an extremely smart person is a fact. And he, as a politician , as the leader of the state, he knew very well that the best weapon is an effective weapon.Undoubtedly, the T-34 tank is the best tank of the Second World War.
    1. +6
      13 December 2022 05: 57
      Quote: Proxima
      T-34 tank - the best tank of the Second World War.

      That's for sure ! good
      1. TIR
        +5
        13 December 2022 10: 16
        According to performance characteristics, of course, the Panther was the best tank. Even better than Tiger. Only now, if we, like Germany, went by introducing a new crude tank (T-44), then the T-2 would have been the best WW44 tank. But then the output would have fallen altogether. And so the main load was still not on tanks, but on infantry. That's why we produced wedges. Let it be better when the infantry advances with a tankette than nothing at all. All the same, the Stalinist leadership always acted from the point of view of a rational approach. Therefore, the moral side of the decision was not in the first place. This is why liberals criticize him.
        1. 0
          14 December 2022 05: 55
          Before the T-44, there was the T-43, comparable in armor to the Panther.
          1. TIR
            +1
            14 December 2022 07: 46
            The T-43 could not go into the series at all sideways. The T-34 initially had a poor weight distribution, and with an increase in armor in the frontal projection, as on the T-43, the suspension was already at its limit. The same T-44 was a revolutionary machine and became the prototype of all MBTs. In fact, thanks to this tank, we first saw the T-54, and then the MBT
    2. +8
      13 December 2022 06: 09
      Quote: Proxima
      English cannon

      I will clarify - a 17-pounder cannon (Ordnance Quick-Firing 17-pounder). It was she who was put on the Sherman Firefly. She pierced with sub-caliber everything that the Germans could put up against her.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_17-pounder

      Quote: Proxima
      Churchill, of course, cannot be called a tank expert, but the fact that he was an extremely intelligent person

      Churchill was a big joker, including about tanks. How do you like this: "The tank was originally invented to clear a way for the infantry ... Now it is the infantry who will have to clear a way for the tanks. (tanks were originally invented to clear the way for the infantry. Now the infantry must clear way for the tanks.)"
      1. +6
        13 December 2022 06: 51
        Yes, W. Churchill knew how to joke. It is known that he openly said - "the tank named after me has more flaws than me"
        At the same time, we must give him his due, since the first British "Marks" were created under his protectorate as the commander of the fleet.
        1. +5
          13 December 2022 07: 16
          Hello, Vlad! smile
          I thought I couldn’t squeeze a drop out of this topic, how much was printed in all countries. So no, everything is written and written, although they cannot write anything fundamentally new.
          Itching is it some kind of special - to pour from empty to empty. laughing
          1. 0
            13 December 2022 08: 01
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Hello, Vlad! smile
            I thought I couldn’t squeeze a drop out of this topic, how much was printed in all countries. So no, everything is written and written, although they cannot write anything fundamentally new.
            Itching is it some kind of special - to pour from empty to empty. laughing

            Uncle Kostya, as far as I understand, this is a re-layout of an older article by the Author.
            So you and I have already "frolicked" on it!
          2. +4
            13 December 2022 12: 15
            Moreover, constantly forget that the main gun of the kv-1 was not the f-34, but the l-11, or the Grabin f-32
        2. +2
          13 December 2022 11: 50
          Actually - "" The tank that bears my name has more flaws than myself!" ... And named after Marlborough John Churchill Feldzeugmeister General 26.V.1650 - 16.VI.1722 ... He is " Malbrook..
    3. 0
      13 December 2022 16: 58
      Quote: Proxima
      Undoubtedly, the T-34 tank is the best tank of World War II.

      Ideally, the question of which tank was the best can be given a combined answer by 5 tankers who fought on both the T-34, the T-4, and the Sherman. But there were no such tankers. Therefore, spears are broken on this issue.
    4. -1
      13 December 2022 18: 51
      After that, the Britons bought our ZIS 2. And they made sure that our 57 mm gun was more effective than the British one.
      1. 0
        14 December 2022 22: 20
        Well, if compared with its analogue, the British 6-pounder (although it’s not a fact that Churchill had it in mind), then the question is about efficiency. With the ZiS-2, Soviet designers followed the German path - a perfect, but difficult-to-manufacture model. A 73-caliber barrel is a tough task even for a more developed industry in calmer conditions. As a result, only 1941 pieces were produced in 370. The British began to produce their cannon of the same caliber almost simultaneously, and also made a very modest start - only 200 pieces in 1941. Although the English barrel was much shorter (only 52 calibers), thanks to better shells, armor penetration lagged behind the ZiS-2 slightly, and the sharp-headed Soviet shell was even inferior to it. In any case, both guns were equally good at piercing any German armor in 1941.

        And then there was a big difference. Realizing that there would be no mass-produced ZiS-2, its production was stopped in the USSR. In Britain, it turned out that the six-pounder was suitable for the largest production - and already in 1942 they were made ... almost 18000 (some, however, in the tank gun version). At the same time, without stopping the release of two-pounders. In the USSR, meanwhile, the 45-mm cannon remained the basis of anti-tank artillery throughout the war, and for the most part not even mod. 42, arr. 37, which already in 1941 was not very good. It was reinforced by the three-inch ZiS-3, more powerful, but not a specialized anti-tank gun and, moreover, still inferior in terms of armor penetration to both Soviet and British 57-mm guns. Yes, and put in anti-tank artillery in 1942 8000 ZiS-3 out of 10000 issued - noticeably less than the 6-pounders of the British.

        In 1943, in both countries, it was discovered that the existing guns of the "Tigers" and "Panthers" penetrated poorly, and the "Tigers" were still very bad. Therefore, the ZiS-2 was returned to production in the USSR and 1943 pieces were produced in 1850 - a drop in the ocean for a huge front, and they still took the "menagerie" badly in the forehead. In Britain, another 16600 6-pounders were made. The following year, another 2500 ZiS-2s were made in the USSR and finally overtook the British, who produced only 2000 6-pounders. Their production was already being completed, the army was saturated and oversaturated, and from 1943 much more powerful 17-pounders went into the series. Finally, in 1945, as many as 5260 ZiS-2s were made, including the peaceful half of the year (the road is a spoon for dinner!). Production continued until 1949, but its volumes fell again.

        Thus, as a single copy of the weapon, the ZiS-2 slightly exceeded the 6-pounder. However, its overall effectiveness was significantly worse. The complexity of the ZiS-2, which was excessive not only for the Soviet, but also for any industry in the world (do you think the British stupidly did not guess that the long barrel shoots harder?) led to the fact that it did not become not only the basis, but in any way the mass part of the Soviet anti-tank artillery, leaving this role to obviously weak and unsuitable systems, and during the most difficult period of the war it was not produced at all. The British produced 34600 6-pounders in just two years, and during this time only 1850 ZiS-2s were made. I have no doubt that if the Red Army had received such anti-tank guns in such quantities, this would have saved many lives and made it possible to end the war earlier.

        I met in the discussions an opinion with which I completely agree. Instead of designing an extra-long 73-caliber barrel, which even the Americans did not aim at, and which led to huge problems in production (a lot of rejects, low survivability), it was necessary to increase the caliber to 65-mm, while reducing the relative length. This would dramatically simplify the production of the barrel and would allow (even at the cost of a small loss of armor penetration) to greatly increase the average efficiency of anti-tank guns.
        1. 0
          15 December 2022 18: 40
          Zis2 is not "slightly", but very much like a British woman. And in terms of initial speed (1200 m / s), and in terms of weight, and in terms of speed of movement, and in terms of
          rate of fire. As for excess power, yes. There was such a thing. The Wehrmacht started the Blitzkrieg with the T2 and T3 tanks of the first modifications. The 45mm gun coped with them. And in those (conditions of 1941!) There were many mistakes.
          1. 0
            16 December 2022 01: 14
            Quote: Skif
            Zis2 is not "slightly", but very much like a British woman. And in terms of initial speed (1200 m / s), and in terms of weight, and in terms of speed of movement, and in terms of
            rate of fire.


            1200 m / s is with a sub-caliber projectile. The British with a sub-caliber had the same speed. With a conventional projectile, the difference was 990 m / s for the ZiS-2 versus 890 m / s for the six-pounder. And what an awesome tabular penetration for a Soviet gun is not real, but according to Jacob de Marr.

            Quote: Skif
            As for excess power, yes. There was such a thing. The Wehrmacht started the Blitzkrieg with the T2 and T3 tanks of the first modifications. The 45mm gun coped with them.


            Didn't manage. Threes (and fours) of the first modifications were already relatively rare, mostly new and modernized, with 50-60 mm armor. Against them, the 45 mm mod. 37 was frankly weak.

            Quote: Skif
            And in those (conditions of 1941!) There were many mistakes.


            1941 is different. Until June 22 and after. The mistake with the ZiS-2 was made back in peacetime. They adopted a cannon, which they could not (and could not) mass-produce throughout the war. As a result, the army fought until 1945 with forty-fives, which were already outdated by 1941. It was a tragedy.
            1. 0
              16 December 2022 14: 28
              )))
              Quote: Skif
              And we were convinced that our 57 mm gun was more effective than the British one.


              Quote: Skif
              . And in terms of initial speed (1200 m / s), and in terms of weight, and in terms of speed of movement, and in terms of rate of fire.

              Quote: Skif
              The Wehrmacht started the Blitzkrieg with the T2 and T3 tanks of the first modifications. The 45mm gun coped with them. BUT

              Comrade political instructor, as usual, is lying.
              Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
              With the ZiS-2, Soviet designers followed the German path - a perfect, but difficult-to-manufacture model.

              Soviet designers followed the Soviet path - they drew a gun with record numbers, having no idea who and how would make and operate it. Not their question.
              Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
              Although the English barrel was much shorter (only 52 caliber)

              At first, the British were forced to shorten the barrel to 43 klb. Then the Americans brought machine tools.
              Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
              Thus, as a single copy of the ZiS-2 weapon, it slightly exceeded the 6-pounder

              On paper.
              Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
              it was necessary to increase the caliber to 65 mm, while reducing the relative length.

              Empty. The best possible Soviet anti-tank gun was the ZiS-3. As a division, she was no good, but how the VET will do. All that needed to be done was to establish the production of BB shells (it was also bad with them) and, in the future, work on a reinforced cartridge case of the Pak 36 (p) type. Well, mechanization, of course, in the form of SU-76. The Americans had an American 3-K gun, but the USSR could not afford a fairly massive anti-aircraft gun in the PT.
              Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
              this would save many lives and allow the war to end earlier

              The real ZiS-2 did not pierce the forehead of the 42nd year, 8 cm with an angle. And the Tiger, too. Stories about its excess power are another myth of political officers.
              1. 0
                17 December 2022 02: 36
                Quote: Negro
                Empty. The best possible Soviet anti-tank gun was the ZiS-3. As a division, she was no good, but how the VET will do.


                VET requires not only armor-piercing (it was enough at the beginning of the war). It is enough to look at the pictures of the ZiS-3 and the German 75-mm to understand who is the anti-tank gun and who was just passing by. However, the ZiS-2 is the same in this regard. By the way, for the same reason, the ancient American anti-aircraft gun on the carriage of a 105-mm howitzer was also not a normal anti-aircraft gun, about which the Americans bitterly complained to their superiors.


                Quote: Negro
                At first, the British were forced to shorten the barrel to 43 klb. Then the Americans brought machine tools.


                43 klb seems to have been produced only until the summer of 42. But, of course, an indicator of planning. The British without outside help in 52 klb can not, and we boldly poked ourselves into 73.

                Quote: Negro
                and in the future to work on a reinforced sleeve of the Pak 36 (p) type.


                There is no way. That is, they could work, and even probably worked. They also worked on 37-mm airborne guns with a length of 100500 calibers on the chassis of a Harley motorcycle. "Engineer Hans really did not want to go to the eastern front." And it's actually unrealistic.


                Quote: Negro
                The real ZiS-2 did not pierce the forehead of the 42nd year, 8 cm with an angle


                If we read the same report, there are many revelations in general. In what I read, I remember "why only lend-lease and trophy ones penetrate normal armor" and "figasse what the French did in 47 mm caliber."
                1. 0
                  17 December 2022 07: 27
                  Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
                  If we read the same report

                  There are no reports required. Enough to know about Soviet problems with shells.
                  Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
                  Actually unrealistic.

                  You mean unrealistic? We are talking about a historical weapon.
                  Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
                  The British without outside help in 52 klb can not, and we boldly poked ourselves into 73.

                  The British and the battleship of the Soviet Union can not, khe-khe. Under Stalin, there was order, khe-khe.
                  Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
                  Just look at the pictures

                  Are you talking about the lath? OK, Pak 97/38.
                  Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
                  was also not a normal VET, about which the Americans bitterly complained to their superiors.

                  To which the authorities issued them a medium tank as a gun carriage. It turned out another sabotage, M10. Actually, no one would have noticed the problems of Sherman 44 if at least the gunners had worked properly. But no.
  2. +7
    13 December 2022 06: 01
    Purely aesthetically, the tanks of the Soviet school (well, maybe with the exception of multi-turreted tanks and pre-war machine-gun tankettes) are the best. No one had such an alloy of brutality and grace, the Germans and the Panther came close, but that was all. Of the modern ones, oddly enough, only Merkava is close. But the post-Soviet development of Almaty, alas, does not fit. Brutality is nowhere, but elegance was not even close there.
  3. +2
    13 December 2022 06: 26
    What is a tank morning today, why would it? wink
    1. +5
      13 December 2022 07: 22
      What is a tank morning today, why would it?


      To the Israeli Day of the Tankman! drinks soldier laughing

  4. +8
    13 December 2022 07: 27
    And where did the author see a 2 mm howitzer on the IS-122?
    1. +5
      13 December 2022 08: 03
      Quote: 2112vda
      And where did the author see a 2 mm howitzer on the IS-122?

      Alexei has enough Lyapov.
    2. +9
      13 December 2022 08: 22
      Yes ... And where in the "Tiger" was the sixth crew member conveniently located ???
      1. +4
        13 December 2022 21: 44
        people confused the Tiger with Elephant .. there was a real 6 people of the crew .. sadness .. but in general, without an appeal awarding the first place to the T-34, it would be worth listening to the opinions of the tankers (of the same Drabkin) even the author of this .. mentioned cravings for The T-34 checkpoint and WHAT effort did the mech-water make, and what about the gunner with his cross-to-cross hands on the helms, lift it up - turn .. and a cramped tower and headsets (the Deutsches managed with caps and, which is characteristic, they didn’t fight with their heads - for some reason this is .. well, for a snack - cast parts are ALWAYS less resistant than rolled parts (even homogeneous ones, and even cemented ones) and the turrets of our tanks were precisely cast .. and the famous "pike nose" IS-3 turned out to be not Ice but ..it's a completely different story..
        py.sy .. but by belittling the enemy’s equipment, we (you_they ...) thereby detract from the FEAT of our tankers who went into battle on .. that was .. against the first-class equipment of the III Reich and the WINNERS .. something like that. .
    3. Alf
      +2
      13 December 2022 19: 34
      Quote: 2112vda
      And where did the author see a 2 mm howitzer on the IS-122?

      In the same place where the Panther's speed is 60 km / h ... Yes, and the mass of the Tiger is 60 tons from there ...
  5. +3
    13 December 2022 08: 25
    Oh, Oleg Kartsov, he does not change. Again, some kind of Murzilka "based on" Discovery programs.

    It's good that I guessed to highlight at least the periods. It's bad that very often there is some kind of crap.

    What immediately catches the eye.
    It was at this time that the “finest hour” of the Panzerkampfwagen III and Panzerkampfwagen IV fell

    Funny, but no. The peak production of the triple is the second half of the 41st and 42nd, the four is the 43rd. Even in Barbarossa, most German tanks are T-2, 38 (t) and other nonsense. It would also be worth mentioning that the troika, and especially the quad "along the way" were sawn, the quartet with a kvk40 and a forehead of 8cm is not at all the tank that was ordered in the 30s. At the concept level.

    The analogue of the Germans were other tanks of the 20-ton class. Valentine, Stewart, Crusider, Sauma. The successful ones (the first two) moved to the lungs during the war, the unsuccessful ones left the stage. Only the Germans succeeded in converting a 20-ton tank into a medium one. Well done.

    On the other hand, everyone else just made a new medium tank of 30 tons. And the Germans had to too.

    Red Dawn

    All these songs about Soviet cars can more or less pass at Discovery, but in written form and in Russian they are simply annoying. The T-34-76 was a worthless machine, but as soon as it began to drive at least somehow, in the fourth year of production, the commanders began to abandon the KV, which was absolutely terrible.

    On the basis of the T-34-76, it was possible to make the T-34-85, on the basis of the KV - the IS / ISU family. These were already very successful cars. But they appeared only in the 44th.
    Year 1943. Menagerie

    The same murzilism, but I don’t seem to see any obvious bullshit.
    Year 1944. Go to Berlin!

    And here is where the water comes in.
    received a heavy breakthrough tank IS-2, armed with a 122 mm howitzer

    What other A-19 howitzer? Hello, garage!
    Another formidable tank weapon is a 12,7 mm DShK machine gun mounted on a turret on a pivot mount.

    The Soviet government was not rich in heavy machine guns. The decree was issued in October of the 44th, at the end of the year they began to selectively install a machine gun. Alas, the DShK began to be installed on all new cars only in the 45th.
    One of the main achievements of Soviet engineers

    Long conversation. Shrinking the armored volume, common for the Soviet school, has both pluses and minuses.
    But fame came to him only after mass use in the West in 1944.

    Sherman machine of the 42nd year, the peak of production is the 43rd.
    "Sherman" - the pinnacle of rationality and pragmatism

    Extraordinary decision of the war period. Exceptionally successful, but mediocre in the engineering sense. However, this "mediocrity" was paid for only by excess weight - which, with American logistics and with the achieved high reliability, did not play any role.
    Possessing the same armament, the American tank is significantly inferior in terms of mobility to the T-34.

    Significantly superior when it comes to cars 42 years old. For the T-34 with a five-speed gun, the differences can be neglected.
    Year 1945. Ghosts of future wars

    The best WWII tank was, of course, the Centurion. At least formally, in the amount of 2 pieces, he was listed in combat units as of May 45th. The IS-3 and T-44 can only be considered WWII tanks purely chronologically, by the date they left the shop.
    The Americans guessed that in addition to the successful Sherman, the army needed a new, heavier tank.

    The Americans considered the Sherman a purely temporary solution, so immediately, in 42, they began work on a specially built tank, the T20. Unfortunately, unlike the extremely successful Sherman, the T20 program was a failure. The combination of the British (and Soviet) layout with the American component base did not allow the creation of a tank that was noticeably superior to the Sherman. But in general, the tank is quite decent.
    The M26 was equipped with an engine from the Sherman, while having a large mass of 10 tons.

    Like the IS-2/3, it has about both weight and power.
    1. 0
      13 December 2022 18: 54
      Oops! Centurion is the best tank of the second world?! From what side, I'm interested to ask?
      1. +1
        13 December 2022 19: 22
        From which side is the best or from which side of the Second World War?
        1. 0
          13 December 2022 19: 32
          Both. It was accepted into service in the 46th. This is from the Second World War. And just from the side ... Speed? 35 km/h. The weight? More than 50 tons? Power reserve? 100 km. And so "he's a good guy, just pissing and deaf."
          1. -3
            13 December 2022 20: 09
            Quote: Skif
            It was accepted into service in the 46th

            In service, yes, he arrived later. But as far as I remember, two pre-production vehicles did get into combat units in the very last days - although they were not in battle.

            However, I will not look for the source now, so you can consider this message unreliable.
            Quote: Skif
            Speed? 35 km/h. The weight? More than 50 tons? Power reserve? 100 km.

            Yes, that's right. For a tank, these are secondary characteristics.
            1. +2
              13 December 2022 20: 19
              And what are the main ones? Label? The tank becomes the best in terms of the totality of characteristics. But in this T34 there was no equal.
              1. -2
                14 December 2022 01: 40
                Quote: Skif
                And what are the main ones?

                Protection / weapons / mobility. In all these aspects, the cent was the best car in its niche. Yes, including mobility - the Jews then dealt with this issue in detail using the example of Cent, M60 and T-62.
                Quote: Skif
                But in this T34 there was no equal.

                Well, why, then, "there were no equals"? If the original car is really a complete nightmare, no one really did this, then the T-34-85 is a pretty decent tank of the 30-ton class. Of course, some of its, um, features were not subject to treatment, but the ideal weapon usually appears after the war has already ended. Say, in 1949.
                1. +2
                  14 December 2022 18: 07
                  But nothing that the t34 appeared in the 39th? Name at least one combat vehicle of that time, similar in characteristics. And in the 49th, the Centurion appeared. 10 years, isn't it too much for a combat vehicle?
                  1. -2
                    14 December 2022 19: 37
                    Quote: Skif
                    Quite seriously. If you really were engaged in the history of tank building, then there is no point in listing. And if so, tryndet, then there is no point in explaining

                    The answer is not accepted. Body, engine, transmission, chassis. All this is complicated and / or unsuccessful.
                    Quote: Skif
                    But nothing that the t34 appeared in the 39th?

                    In the middle of the 40th.
                    Quote: Skif
                    Name at least one combat vehicle of that time, similar in characteristics

                    Since the early T-34 was essentially a self-propelled pillbox, they tried not to produce this at all.
                    Quote: Skif
                    in the 49th and the Centurion appeared

                    In the 45th, you have already been told. Be careful, please. Do not confuse with T-54 mod 1949.
                    1. +1
                      14 December 2022 20: 25
                      It makes no difference to me whether the answer is accepted or not. You customize the answer to the problem.
                      The start of production of the T34, just 39 years old. Your favorite centurion has been produced since the 46th. Prior to this, prototypes and pre-production samples. "Self-propelled pillbox" is definitely not about the T34. Why? Read something other than Wiki.
                      1. -2
                        14 December 2022 22: 44
                        Quote: Skif
                        I don't care if the answer is accepted or not.

                        Still would. You have nothing but slogans.
                        Quote: Skif
                        Start of production of t34, just 39

                        You're lying. The well-known run of the T-34 - non-serial - to Moscow is March 40th. Moreover, these products had even less in common with weapons than other products of the 40th year.
                        Quote: Skif
                        Prior to this, prototypes and pre-production samples.

                        Nevertheless, prototypes and pre-production models in the 45th went to parts, and the T-34 in the 39th did not exist at all. At the same time, the non-existent T-34 tank was adopted by the Red Army on December 19, 39. Under Stalin, there was order, khe-khe.
                        Quote: Skif
                        "Self-propelled pillbox" is definitely not about the T34. Why? Read something

                        Yes, a lot has been written about this. Still, I insist that the bunker was self-propelled - sometimes it was possible to move it without the help of a tractor.
                      2. 0
                        15 December 2022 18: 52
                        I consider it futile to discuss with the "expert" Vicki. Read books. They educate, not stupefy.
    2. +1
      14 December 2022 23: 49
      Lord, how nice (without irony) to stumble upon a knowledgeable person here!

      The analogue of the Germans were other tanks of the 20-ton class. Valentine, Stewart, Crusider, Sauma. The successful ones (the first two) moved to the lungs during the war, the unsuccessful ones left the stage. Only the Germans succeeded in converting a 20-ton tank into a medium one. Well done.


      Valentine matched in weight but was very different in concept. If measured by English standards, it was infantry, and in general all German tanks were cruising. And in the Red Army, to the last, he managed to fight in a relatively original role. Even despite the staffing.

      "Sauma" is actually SOMUA, it is an abbreviation. And he, too, could evolve into medium. Because of "Wargaming" and their "buy a paper tank for real money" policy, it has become bad manners to mention SOMU improvement projects, but I read about them in French back in the 2000s with Stefan Ferrar, so I have the right. There, a real evolution in the style of the "Troika" loomed - the armor was worse, the gun was better, the mobility was good. And with intermediate options. It did not take off for two reasons, of which one is obvious (the French merged), and the second is inevitable (they could not establish mass production of SOMUA, and it was not the Germans who prevented this). But I can't call it unsuccessful.

      Another unrealized example of the evolution of a 20-ton into a medium is the Hungarian Turan-3. Although this can be attributed to Czech tank building. Well, and the Swedish Strv.42, which (for all the problems) was immediately in the same class with peers 8-10 tons more than itself.

      Extraordinary decision of the war period. Exceptionally successful, but mediocre in the engineering sense.


      Instead of "perfect" it turned out just "very good". Treasure fell into the hands of the Americans, but they did not understand. The only medium tank from which it was possible to make a heavy one without radical alterations (with armor worse than the KT, but much better than the usual T). I'm not talking about the guns that were included in it after the war, up to the Yugoslav one from the IS-2.

      The best WWII tank was, of course, the Centurion.


      Mmm, I'm not even arguing, but why "naturally"? Spacious, powerful anti-tank gun, well protected in front (152-mm forehead of the turret and the same reduced upper forehead of the hull). At the same time, it is slow-moving (being officially a "cruiser"), has a burning, combustible and brittle engine, the sides are vulnerable to all normal anti-tank weapons, the 20-mm Polsten creates a hefty ledge in the tower and greatly reduces the space inside it. The Centurion took off because the Americans scored on tanks, it was impossible for the Germans and other Axis, the French barely mastered the light one, and you understand to buy from the Soviets and the Czechs. Who stays?
      1. +1
        15 December 2022 01: 02
        Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
        for a knowledgeable person!

        It seemed. About 10 years ago, the level of discussion on the site was quite high, and now even my superficial sketches look solid in relation to 90% of the comments.
        Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
        but was completely different in concept

        For obvious reasons, it was impossible to create an MBT in the 30s and in 20 tons. Therefore, the cars were balanced differently, which makes them even more interesting. Among the best cars of this weight, the M5 Stewart and Valentine, the Germans certainly stand out in a better way. Separately, I note that Valya with 75mm is very close to the T-34-76 in all aspects, while it is 1.5 times lighter and does not claim to be the laurels of the "best tank of war" at all. By the way, about how Comrade Koshkin did the replacement of the Christie tank and what he did.
        Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
        SOMUA, it's an abbreviation

        Thanks, but I don't remember. Not a fan of French tanks.
        Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
        There, a real evolution in the style of the "Troika" loomed - the armor was worse, the gun was better, the mobility was good.

        I always put bolts on Kharkiv with the tank commander and the turret commander, but 3 people in SOMUA are easy to forget like a bad dream.
        Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
        Another unrealized example of the evolution of a 20-ton into a medium is the Hungarian Turan-3. Although this can be attributed to Czech tank building. Well, and the Swedish Strv.42, which (for all the problems) was immediately in the same class with peers 8-10 tons more than itself.

        Turan 3 never existed, so I wouldn't remember it. The Swede is normal, so a compressed medium tank, approximately the American M7. Accordingly, most likely the same minus - there is no reserve for modernization. True, the Americans did not use the M4 reserves, but at least the Jews came in handy.
        Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
        Instead of "perfect" it turned out just "very good".

        There are no complaints about 42, but in 44 a completely sawn Sherman could and should have become an ideal "medium-heavy" tank. The answer to the Panther, how the Germans sawed the four into an analogue of the T-34. Alas, the Germans did not knock out the American bragging in half a year in Africa.
        Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
        but why "naturally"?

        The short answer is that only he fought with the T-62 from WWII tanks. The longer answer is that in order for the Panther to be a good tank, it needs to be redone in its entirety, every detail. Now, if every detail of the Panther is redone, just the Centurion will turn out. It is impossible to make a tank better in the 45th year.
        Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
        The centurion took off because the Americans scored on tanks,

        Let me remind you that the Americans who scored on tanks sawed pattons faster than the USSR T-54/55. In any case, the context of my statement was quite specific: WWII ended on September 2, 1945. Name the best serial tank for this date. M26, Chaffee, Centurion, Comet, IS-3, IS-4 (on trials) T-44, Panther.
        1. 0
          15 December 2022 23: 45
          Accordingly, most likely the same minus - there is no reserve for modernization.


          Well, they still washed down the modernization ... in 1957.

          The short answer is that only he fought with the T-62 from WWII tanks.


          Like even Sherman in 1973? But in essence I understood your logic, I want to argue with it, but nothing comes to mind. You are probably right, although it's a shame for the handsome IS-3.
          1. -1
            16 December 2022 00: 14
            Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
            in 1957

            The caliber of the gun remained, the armor remained unchanged.
            Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
            Sherman in 1973?

            Sherman is less fortunate, it seems.
            Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
            shame on the handsome IS-3.

            I adhere to the heretical concept that the IS-2/3/4/T-10 are not tanks, but turret self-propelled guns. It was then the M103 and the British "legalized" separate loading for the tank, but during WWII this decision was not normal.
            Plus, the layout of the IS remained the same, with a longitudinal rather than a transverse arrangement of the MTO units. Accordingly, the front tower.
            1. 0
              16 December 2022 01: 57
              Quote: Negro
              The caliber of the gun remained, the armor remained unchanged.


              The caliber of the guns and the fours with the Shermans did not change throughout the war. And the armor of 80 mm for a medium tank (namely, without questions of a medium one, and not of the fried Panthers and M26) was the norm throughout the war. So such a modernization appeared in 1944 ... In 1957, of course, there is nothing to discuss.

              Sherman is less fortunate, it seems.


              The figures for the loss ratio are unknown to me, and I'm not sure that they are accurate. But the very fact that Sherman could fight at all in 1973 with machines from a different era says a lot about Sherman. T-34s and fours also fought for a long time, but not against modern tanks (I don’t take the specific case of the Cypriot Austrians against the Turkish Pattons).

              I adhere to the heretical concept that the IS-2/3/4/T-10 are not tanks, but turret self-propelled guns. It was then the M103 and the British "legalized" separate loading for the tank, but during WWII this decision was not normal.


              As far as I know, up to a certain point in this class of tank guns, it simply did not work out differently. The same age as the IS-3, the American T34, was also charged separately.
              1. 0
                16 December 2022 06: 40
                Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
                up to a certain point in this class of tank guns, it simply didn’t work out differently

                Therefore, in my opinion, the D-25T is not a tank gun.
                Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
                American T34, also charged separately

                I know. Superpersh would also be with separate loading with a caliber of 90mm. But these tanks were not.
                Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
                But the very fact that Sherman could fight at all in 1973 with machines from a different era says a lot about Sherman. T-34s and fours also fought for a long time

                Well, you know. There is no need to absolutize the thesis. Look, right now the T-55s (heavily converted) may end up in the same brigade with the Leo2. I think you understand my point that Shot has been competitive for 20+ years without any discounts. In fact, this 45-year-old machine, based on technologies at the level of the beginning of the war, is not on a par with the contemporaries that I listed, but with the M48 and T-54, tanks of the 49-50s.
                Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
                In 1957, of course, there is nothing to discuss.

                Well, you see. Yes, I called the Sherman mediocre from an engineering point of view, but the Swedish tank was very good. But in real life, the Americans chose the Sherman over the M7, for obvious reasons.
  6. BAI
    +1
    13 December 2022 09: 39
    1.
    a tank battle near Prokhorovka is a rare exotic.

    There was no oncoming tank battle. all the more - large-scale. Tales of Romistrov. 5GTA did not fly to the previously prepared anti-tank defense of the Germans. And not by the whole army at once, but by brigade. Moreover, the commander of 4 TA Goth planned the destruction of Soviet tank reserves near Prokhorovka back in April.
    2.
    In the first year of the war alone, by the summer of 1942, the Red Army received about 15000 T-84s, and in total more than 000 T-34s of all modifications were produced.

    On the one hand, you should be proud. On the other hand, the numbers are horrendous. How many thirty-fours were in service in 1945? like 35. 000 were destroyed. And there were also losses of T50, BT 000, KV-26, 5,7, IS-1,2, 85. And a bunch of self-propelled guns
    1. 0
      13 December 2022 18: 57
      Tales of Rotmistrov? Read Curius. That's where the storyteller is!
      1. +2
        13 December 2022 19: 34
        Karius, of course. Zadolbali moralizing moderator.
  7. +5
    13 December 2022 09: 45
    Quote: BAI
    On the other hand, the numbers are horrendous. How many thirty-fours were in service in 1945? like 35. 000 were destroyed.


    Fantasy. Equipment is not only destroyed during hostilities, but also decommissioned due to wear and tear.
    Little things like non-combat losses (breakdowns) can be kept silent.
  8. +3
    13 December 2022 12: 23
    Another pearl about nothing. The author is immediately recognizable.
  9. +3
    13 December 2022 12: 43
    tracks 0,7 meters wide required the installation of a second row of rollers on each side.


    Combat and transport tracks
  10. +4
    13 December 2022 15: 58
    "... There is nothing worse than a tank battle against superior enemy forces. Not in numbers - it didn’t matter to us, we got used to it. But against better cars it’s awful ... Russian tanks are so agile, they climb up at close distances down the slope or overcome the swamp faster than you rotate the turret. And through the noise and crash you hear the clanging of shells on the armor all the time. When they get into our tank, you often hear a deafening explosion and the roar of burning fuel too loud to hear deaths screams uh ipazha ... "

    - the opinion of the German tanker from the 4 Tank Division, destroyed by T-34 tanks in the battle of Mtsensk 11 in October 1941 of the year.

    And here is the official point of view for October 1941 of the commander of the tank group, which included the same 4th panzer division:
    ... the Soviet T-34 tank is a typical example of backward Bolshevik technology. This tank cannot be compared with the best examples of our tanks, made by the faithful sons of the Reich and repeatedly proving their superiority...

    And yes, who would explain to me how destroyed in the battle near Mtsensk on October 11, 1941, the 4th Panzer Division managed at the same time to capture Mtsensk and practically surround the Katukov group, so that the future marshal had to withdraw his forces to the other side under fire from the enemy who had broken through to the crossings. smile
    And in general - how did the Eberbach Kampfgruppen turn into a whole division?
    1. +2
      13 December 2022 18: 44
      The military correspondents of those years steamed no more than the current ones.
      1. +1
        14 December 2022 10: 36
        Quote: Negro
        The military correspondents of those years steamed no more than the current ones.

        Oh yes ... Ortenberg and Baltermants alone are worth something. smile
  11. +3
    13 December 2022 18: 33
    Worst: T4, T3, Tiger - tanks are difficult to manufacture, not technologically advanced. The best: T34, Sherman, IS2 - powerful, cheap, a lot. The best weapon is the one that allows you to win the war.
    1. 0
      13 December 2022 18: 47
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      T4, T3, Tiger - tanks are difficult to manufacture

      Of those listed, only the Tiger was difficult to manufacture. There were serious problems with the troika, but by the 41st year, production issues were resolved. The four was initially a very successful tank.
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      T34, Sherman, IS2 - powerful, cheap, a lot.

      As I understand it, your T-34 and IS were not difficult to manufacture?
      1. +2
        13 December 2022 19: 37
        You understand correctly. These tanks were not simple, but technologically advanced in production. Do you catch the difference?
        1. -1
          13 December 2022 20: 05
          Quote: Skif
          These tanks were not simple, but technologically advanced in production.

          And where did you get the idea that they were technological? Was the T-34 of the 41st technologically advanced?
          1. +2
            13 December 2022 20: 22
            Not only technological, but also maintainable. In addition, the hull was all-welded, unlike many tanks of that time.
            1. -2
              14 December 2022 00: 38
              Quote: Skif
              Not only technological, but also maintainable

              Seriously? What exactly in the T-34 seems technologically advanced to you in relation to tanks of its class?
              1. +2
                14 December 2022 18: 10
                Quite seriously. If you really were engaged in the history of tank building, then there is no point in listing. And if so, tryndet, then there is no point in explaining.
          2. +3
            13 December 2022 20: 36
            Yes, the T34 was very technologically advanced, unlike, for example, the T50, which, due to the large number of parts and complexity, did not go into production. And then manufacturability and simplicity only grew with a simultaneous improvement in the quality of the machine itself.
            1. -2
              14 December 2022 00: 48
              Quote: Victor Sergeev
              unlike, for example, the T50, which, due to the large number of parts and complexity in production, never went

              And not because the T-50 ended up without an engine and with a production base lost in Leningrad for the car as a whole? By the way, even though the USSR was lucky in this, the T-50 already in the 42nd year was a completely irrelevant machine. If he had managed before the T-34, it is difficult to say how things would have gone.
              Quote: Victor Sergeev
              And then manufacturability and simplicity only grew with a simultaneous improvement in the quality of the machine itself.

              )))
              Yes, the quality was growing - there was nowhere to fall from the level of the 40th year. And manufacturability - a complex and curved initially project, with incredible efforts, managed to be brought into a form acceptable for production. Of the machines in its class - the long-barreled four and the Sherman 75 - the T-34-76 was by far the most difficult in every aspect. Complex and in general, and even more so by the standards of the USSR.
              1. +1
                14 December 2022 20: 48
                That is, T60,70, 80 were relevant, but T50 was not? They did the T70, because with the same gun it was simpler and cheaper.
                1. +2
                  14 December 2022 22: 51
                  Quote: Victor Sergeev
                  That is, T60,70, 80 were relevant, but T50 was not?

                  T-60/70/80 were armored cars on automobile nodes. The T-50 was a normal tank of special construction and was conceived just in place of the main tank of the Red Army - since the complex, expensive, heavy and unsuccessful T-34 obviously could not replace the T-26. Especially against the background of another bout of madness in the form of 30 mechanized corps. So the transfer of the entire spacecraft to the T-34 was by no means according to plan.
                  Quote: Victor Sergeev
                  They did the T70, because with the same gun it was simpler and cheaper.

                  As if there was a choice.
      2. +2
        13 December 2022 20: 34
        Yes, my T34 and IS2 were very easy to manufacture, which made it possible to make more than 53000 of them, while the Germans, having incomparably greater resources, qualified personnel, were able to make a little more than 8000 T4 throughout Europe. IS2 produced 3385 units for some one and a half years.
        T34 was cooked by Baba Valya with an automatic machine, and Tiger, Panther or T4 - by 5-7 highly qualified top-level welders.
        1. -1
          14 December 2022 00: 52
          Quote: Victor Sergeev
          Yes, my T34 and IS2 were very easy to manufacture, which made it possible to make more than 53000 of them, while the Germans, having incomparably greater resources, qualified personnel, were able to make a little more than 8000 T4 throughout Europe. IS2 produced 3385 units for some one and a half years.

          Strange statements. The German approach to the BTT was different, the total production was almost the same with the USSR. The Germans did not seek to drive the production of one car, their range was much wider. The fact that the Germans fought 5 times smaller forces in this unit (the release of the BTT of the UK and the USA separately was close to the release of the Reich and the USSR together) does not speak in favor of the Allies.
          1. +1
            14 December 2022 19: 42
            Production of tanks and self-propelled guns for 1941 - 1944: Germany - 46857, USSR - 105251. Well, yes, the output is almost the same, what is there to argue. The fact that the Germans, having an industry many times stronger than the Soviet one, drove tanks many times less speaks of the strength of the USSR. The Germans, fighting in smaller numbers, held out thanks to artillery and the fact that they went into a dead-end defense, therefore, the losses of the USSR in tanks were much greater and this does not speak in favor of Germany.
            1. 0
              14 December 2022 23: 01
              Quote: Victor Sergeev
              Production of tanks and self-propelled guns for 1941 - 1944: Germany - 46857, USSR - 105251

              )))
              Tanks and self-propelled guns, yeah.
              All BTT, he said. Look for armored personnel carriers to start with. Which the USSR did not produce at all.
              Quote: Victor Sergeev
              The fact that the Germans, having an industry many times stronger than the Soviet one, drove tanks many times less speaks of ...

              The fact that the USSR was driving the plan along the rampart, while not being able - until the very end of the war, even with Lend-Lease - to form one full-fledged tank division. He provided the quantity in pieces, but not the nomenclature. Not that this was typical for 41-44 years, I note.
              Quote: Victor Sergeev
              The Germans, fighting in smaller numbers, held out thanks to artillery and the fact that they went into a dead-end defense, therefore, the losses of the USSR in tanks were much greater and this does not speak in favor of Germany.

              Seriously? You somehow forgot that three of the four years of the Second World War took place on the territory of the USSR.
    2. -2
      13 December 2022 21: 54
      but tell people (in all honesty) you yourself would have gone into battle in what car (est.t. but if there was a choice) on the blind floor (but terribly technologically advanced_ you and your entire battalion will burn down and during this time the regiment they’ll build and the crews will be built like this .. they still give birth and die a fool .. so you’re Russian .. you go to the end ..) because the glass in the sights and triplexes are muddy and it’s better not to touch the checkpoint because you’ll stall on .. or on the booked one at the most Nebalui Tigre with his Akht_Akht that takes other people's tanks from 2 km and the sight from Zeiss and the mech-water can turn the steering wheel with two fingers .. well, what is your ''correct'' choice ???
      1. kaa
        +2
        14 December 2022 05: 09
        "two fingers", masterpiece .. there were no such songs yet
      2. +1
        14 December 2022 20: 59
        This is how the Germans reasoned and lost the war. And tell me people, what tank would you use to break through a heavily fortified defense line, on the IS2 or the Tiger? And also tell me, what would you prefer, as an infantry platoon commander, that you would be covered by 2 T34s, or a Tiger located 100 km away, and under repair?
        1. 0
          15 December 2022 18: 51
          I would have gone into battle on the YagdPanther .. and the Tigers (by the way) still gnawed through our defense lines near Kursk .. of course they got stuck at the end but they pushed it through .. but what kind of Is-2 is it mil-people you’re really ready to go into battle on a tank with a BC of 28, not even unitars (technical rate of fire is 2 per minute, but real, God forbid, Schaub is one) and even Carl Zeiss allowed you to confidently kill from 2 km, and what about wartime haze in BT sights The Red Army .. and 100 km for a tiger is certainly bad, but .. how many battles (on average) did the T-34 go through with the tactics of battle that they practiced in the USSR (aggress forward for the Motherland .. in the forehead) .. hardly convinced me of anything but ..tired of listening .. aha, what a technological (and therefore cheap and no frills) was the technique in the scoop of the IVS times ... that's just how many of the ~ 80 K T-34s were on May 1, 1945 .. and how many crews remained in their ' 'mass graves'' ???
  12. +2
    13 December 2022 19: 19
    Six crew members
    Where did so many people in the "Tiger" come from?
  13. 0
    13 December 2022 20: 06
    You can be simply crushed by quantity.
    fool The German mouse has the most indestructible characteristics, but if they can be made 1 pc. /month is that a weapon? The same goes for the king tiger. Not killed, not ordinary self-propelled guns for defense, not tanks, just like tigers. Too complicated prodigy. request Author, where is the rating, huh?
    The best tanks of World War II according to Discovery "Ten best tanks of the twentieth century"
    The main thing - where are the criteria for evaluation and selection? Without them, there is not and cannot be a definition of better or worse.
  14. 0
    13 December 2022 20: 28
    Thank you for the article. Informative and interesting hi
  15. +1
    14 December 2022 11: 23
    Quote: TIR
    The T-43 could not go into the series at all sideways. The T-34 initially had poor weight distribution, and with an increase in armor in the frontal projection, as on the T-43,.....


    Not certainly in that way. The layout remained the same as on the T-34, and the suspension was torsion bar. But the inevitable decline in the number of produced tanks stopped the production of the T-43 series. The tower passed from it to the T-34-85.
  16. 0
    14 December 2022 15: 59
    T 34-85 (exactly), Sherman with 76 mm, Panther. Overall, my rating is .
    1. -1
      14 December 2022 18: 49
      Quote: t200404
      T 34-85 (exactly), Sherman with 76 mm, Panther

      The Panther is out of this line, it is the next generation tank with the corresponding pluses (quality) and minuses (quantity). Sherman 76 has a bad gun for a tank.
      1. +1
        14 December 2022 23: 38
        But the panther participated in large numbers, unlike let's say a comet, but what is a bad 76 mm gun?
        1. -1
          15 December 2022 00: 22
          The Comet is another sawing of Cromwell, and the Panther is the transition of a medium tank to the 50 ton class. In essence, the difference is the same as the transition from the T-4 to the T-34 and Sherman.

          A 76mm gun with a badly halved high-explosive. Approximately half as powerful (in terms of explosive weight) as a 75mm, S-53, Kvk40, Kvk42 and 17lb HE. This is a specialized AT gun, which is for the Mirus tank. Therefore, some Americans spat on this machine.

          Well, a non-historical argument: if the T-34-85 was squeezed dry, it was impossible to make it better, then the Sherman 76 is a minimal upgrade. It's so fucked up that it just pisses me off.
          1. 0
            15 December 2022 00: 36
            The Egyptians managed to put in 122 mm - there was something else to squeeze out))) - just kidding, it’s clear about the landmine, I read the memoirs of tankers, mostly Soviet (of the same vine), many if you offer t 34 or a Sherman choose a Sherman - people actually live in a tank - when choosing of the best tanks, the opinion of people who actually fought should be taken into account. By the way, my grandfather fought on the T-34 - it was very hard on him -
            1. 0
              15 December 2022 02: 15
              Quote: t200404
              The Egyptians managed to stick 122 mm in - there was something else to squeeze

              Yugoslavs. The D-25T was still overkill. But the Pershing tower stood up without question, they have the same shoulder strap of the tower.
              Quote: t200404
              choose sherman

              The USSR mainly supplied tanks with a 75mm gun, EMNIP. Yes, the Sherman is better than the T-34, primarily in terms of crew survivability. Safer gunpowder and shells, no tanks in the fighting compartment, every tanker has a hatch, the armor is not prone to chipping and has fewer weakened zones.

              The Sherman had few real disadvantages: in the early days, the Wright engine did not like low revs (but this did not apply to diesel engines), plus they never made a tank transmission, turning on the spot was impossible - only in an arc. If compared with the M4 75 with the T-34-76, then there is nothing to talk about. When compared with the M4 76 with the T-35-85, then perhaps only a landmine spoils the matter. The rest of the American is better.

              So yes, it is better to choose Sherman. And not in the Soviet army))).
  17. +1
    15 December 2022 01: 17
    My uncle Loiko Vasily before 1941. He graduated from a tank school and fought the entire war as a tanker. His fate is a rare case, to fight so much and for all the time to get only once a shell shock, the consequences of which brought him to the grave ahead of time (he lived 53 years). As a kid, I asked him about the war. So here is his practical opinion. Most of all, our tankers liked the American Sherman: a more spacious internal volume, high-quality optics, excellent radio communications, winter heating, and, most surprisingly, shells did not detonate during a fire, unlike Soviet and German ones. It was possible to survive under the bottom of the burning Sherman, but never under the burning thirty-four.
  18. 0
    17 December 2022 02: 01
    Quote: Negro
    I think you understand my point that Shot has been competitive for 20+ years without any discounts. In fact, this 45-year-old machine, based on technologies at the level of the beginning of the war, is not on a par with the contemporaries that I listed, but with the M48 and T-54, tanks of the 49-50s.


    I'm not sure, but I think I get it. The Centurion lasted so long, because everything was replaced for it - the gun, the thickness of the armor, the engine and the type of fuel, in the end even the tracks were changed. What is left? Oak pendant and hull/turret shape. That is, the Centurion was the first tank with the form of a +-modern MBT. The IS-3, with all the advantages in armor and mobility, was only an extreme case of a tank at the beginning of the war with a turret carried forward. Plus, at the beginning of the war, the British ate tanks with a super-dense layout and the Centurion came out very spacious - which later made it possible to change its insides very freely. Well, all the time of the competitiveness of the Centurion, up to the mass introduction of smoothbore guns, British tank guns and ammunition were ahead of the rest. This in itself gave a good head start.
    1. 0
      17 December 2022 18: 20
      Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
      but i think i got it

      )))
      It seems not.
      Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
      the first tank with the form of + -modern MBT

      The shape of the modern MBT means the correct layout. On the M26 stood one after another a long and narrow aircraft engine, then a gearbox, then final drives. Therefore, it is very similar to the IP in profile. All the British, starting with Cromwell, have a box turned across, combined with final drives, behind the engine, it is much shorter. Therefore, the M26 has a tower in front, the gun mask hangs in front of the first roller, and the Centurion has it in the middle. Accordingly, I put it on a par with the M48, where the Americans created a short MTO from scratch, and the T-54, where the Soviets brought the T-44 transverse MTO to mind and changed the gun, which was obviously weak even for 44 years.
      Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
      The Centurion came out very spacious - which later made it possible to change its insides very freely

      That is, unlike the aforementioned Panther, which was the ultimate machine, the Centurion at the same weight had gigantic reserves. In this he is similar to Sherman at a higher technical and engineering level. His shoulder strap is larger than the IS-7 EMNIP.
      At the same time, the Soviet tank school, especially the Kharkovites, always saved on reserves first of all.

      Therefore, in fact, the best tank of the Soviet school is the T-72. Its original secondary nature just allowed 50 years to somehow develop the car.
      Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
      oak pendant

      Carts were better than torsion bars until at least the mid-50s. The Germans did not just wind up their plates. The torsion bars were either too stiff, like the HF, or meant relatively little weight per torsion bar, like the Chaffee, treble, or cymbals.
      Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
      This in itself gave a good head start.

      Yes. Therefore, I write that nothing better could have been done in the second half of the 40s.
  19. 0
    20 December 2022 02: 25
    Quote: Negro
    That is, unlike the aforementioned Panther, which was the ultimate machine, the Centurion at the same weight had gigantic reserves.


    By the way, I can’t blame the Germans for creating the ultimate machine. I think that in no army in the world would it have worked "well, now we will create a so-so car, but in 1947 it can be modernized so that everyone gasps." The answer will immediately arise: "we already need the best of what is possible, because by 1947 we will simply be hanged." That is, if a certain genius came to the Panther competition with a drawing of a tank with a stock of modernization up to the 60s, Hitler and Parteigenossen would force him to immediately use all this stock (increase armor to 250 mm, stick a gun from Ferdinand etc.). And they would do the right thing. There is already a question why the "Panther" in its ultimate form turned out to be worse than the "Centurion" in the initial one (and even then, in terms of mobility it is worse than the first Ts, except that the first KV was), but there is an excuse - in that war, progress went on for three years, and then for five. When the "Panther" went to war, what did the British have? Here.

    If you think about it, then the creation of tanks with a conscious reserve for modernization is already the 70s. When "Abrams" was made immediately under 120, and 105 was a deliberately temporary solution. Then "Leclerc" was made initially for the possibility of installing 140 without a radical alteration of the tower.
    1. -1
      20 December 2022 20: 19
      And why do not you poke the "reply" button, but write a new message?
      Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
      By the way, I can’t blame the Germans for creating the ultimate machine

      And I didn’t blame (although the tower is a little wider than necessary for a four, but not wide enough for a tiger gun). However, a cent in the same weight had great opportunities - due to the fact that it was on the centurion that it was possible to realize the advantages of the layout.
      Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
      If you think about it, then the creation of tanks with a conscious reserve for modernization is already the 70s

      )))
      And in the 30s, tanks were created with an unconscious reserve for modernization. Four for example.
  20. 0
    14 January 2023 20: 36
    What are you talking about, Oleg Kaptsov??? The T-44 never had a frontal armor plate of 120 mm - there was a plate of 90 mm. 120 mm is the forehead of the tower. And in comparison with whom the angle of its inclination has grown to 60 degrees? If you mean the T-34, then its angle of inclination was exactly the same: 60 degrees from the vertical.