The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. CH 20. Under the canopy of Sakura

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Before turning to the final article on the Varyag, it remains for us to clarify only some of the features of its rise and operation by the Japanese.

It should be noted that the Japanese started the ship-raising operations immediately - January 27 (February 9 according to the new style) 1904 was fought, and on January 30 (February 12) the Maritime Minister ordered to form the naval expedition headquarters in Incheon, who led Rear Admiral Arai Yukan. After just 5 days, February 4 (February 17), headquarters specialists arrived at Asanman Bay, and the next day they began work.


"Varyag" at low tide


However, the Japanese immediately faced serious problems. The cruiser lay down on the port side and was considerably submerged in the bottom silt (although the opinion of V. Kataev that the cruiser was sitting in it almost along the diametrical plane looks like an exaggeration). Before you raise the ship, it should straighten (put on an even keel), and it was a difficult task, requiring the maximum unloading of the cruiser.

Therefore, the Japanese began by making holes in the right side of the Varyag, in the area of ​​coal pits through which coal and other cargoes were unloaded. The work was greatly complicated by both cold weather and the fact that the ship completely went under water at high tide. Since April 1904, the Japanese began to remove the artillery of the cruiser, and in June of the same year they began to dismantle the superstructures, chimneys, fans and other superstructures of the cruiser.

In mid-July, these preparatory works entered a stage at which one could already begin to straighten the hull. Pumps, whose task was to wash the sand from under the ship, were brought to Varyag so that it fell into the formed pit with a decrease in roll. This led to partial success - the bank slowly straightened, although there is a discrepancy in the sources. R.M. Melnikov wrote that the roll decreased by 25 hail. (that is, from 90 degrees to 65 degrees), but V. Kataev claims that the list has reached 25 degrees, and, judging by the photos, all the same V. Kataev is right. Be that as it may, the left side of the cruiser was gradually freed from silt, and the Japanese were able to cut off those structures and remove the artillery that had previously been sunk into the silt and was not available to them.

In early August, the Japanese considered that they had done enough to enable Varyag to be raised. Having sealed the ship, as far as they could, and delivering pumps with a total capacity of 7 000 t / h to it, the Japanese attempted to lift, simultaneously pumping out water and pumping air into the cruiser's premises. It did not succeed, and then by mid-August additional pumps were delivered, so their total performance reached the 9 000 t / hour. But this did not help either. It became clear that a caisson was needed, but there was almost no time left for its construction, as the cold weather came. Nevertheless, they tried to build hastily - but the third attempt with an improvised caisson also failed. It was obvious to everyone that in 1904 the cruiser could not be raised in any way, so the 17 (30) of October, having previously fixed the cruiser on the ground with ropes, the Japanese interrupted the rescue work left Varyag “until better times”.

In the following, 1905, the Japanese engineers decided to approach the matter much more thoroughly than the previous one. They started the construction of a grand caisson - the total displacement of it and the ship, according to V. Kataev, was to reach 9 000 t. Moreover, its height (as if continuing the sides of the ship) was to be 6,1 m.

The construction of this very monstrous construction was started at the end of March (9 April) 1905. After the wall on the starboard of the cruiser was completed, the rectification of the ship was resumed. Gradually, things went smoothly - by the beginning of July, the cruiser managed to straighten the 3 to a roll in degrees, that is, to practically put on an even keel, but it still remained on the ground, but after that, for the 40 days they completed the left side of the caisson and did other work . Since it was considered that the existing pumps were not enough, 3 powerful pumps were also reordered, and now they have been delivered to the cruiser.

And finally, after a long preparation, on July 28 (August 8) the cruiser finally surfaced, but, of course, work on its restoration was just beginning at that point.


Cruiser in caisson


The repair of the case continued, in order to ensure watertightness, but the caisson was disassembled for uselessness. After the survey, Yukan Arai suggested not to tow the “Varyag”, but to ensure his transfer under his own cars - the proposal was accepted, and work began to boil on the ship. They cleaned and rebuilt the boilers, put the equipment in order, put temporary pipes (instead of the cut ones during the ascent).

The 23 of August (5 of September) ended the Russo-Japanese War - the cruiser, although it was raised, but still remained in the water area of ​​Chemulpo. For the first time after its flooding, Varyag launched 15 (28) in October, developed 10 nodes, steering, cars and boilers operated normally. October 20 (November 2) A Japanese naval flag was hoisted over the Varyag on 1905 and after a day's 3 went to Japan. The cruiser was supposed to go to Yokosuka, but on the way he had to go to Sasebo, where he had to be put in the dock, as water entered the ship’s hull. As a result, the cruiser arrived in Yokosuka 17 (30) November 1905.

Here the ship was waiting for a refurbishment, which lasted exactly two years: the cruiser went out to the factory and then to the sea trials in November 1907 g. As a result, with the power 17 126 hp and the 155 revs the cruiser reached 22,71 knots.



According to the results of tests on November 8 (21), 1907, the "Varangian" (under the name "Soya") was accepted into the Japanese Imperial fleet like a class 2 cruiser. After 9 months, on August 15 (28), 1908, Soyu was transferred to the Training Squadron of the Naval School in Yokosuka as a training vessel, which he served as until March 22 (April 4), 1916, when the cruiser, after moving to Vladivostok, lowered the Japanese flag and returned to the ownership of the Russian Empire. It must be said that the cruiser was operated very intensively as a training ship: in 1908, it participated in large fleet maneuvers, in 1909 and 1910. went on long sea trips with cadets on board. This was followed by an almost eight-month overhaul (from April 4 (17), 1910 to February 25 (March 10), 1911), followed by the period 1911-1913. “Soya” makes two more four-month training trips in the Pacific Ocean, but on November 18 (December 1) 1913 it was withdrawn from the Training Squadron and, a day later, it again undergoes a major overhaul, which lasted almost exactly a year - the cruiser returns to the Training Squadron also November 18 (December 1), but already in 1914. In 1915, the cruiser makes its last training trip under the Japanese flag, and in early 1916 the procedure for transferring it to Russia follows.

It seems to be a solid routine, and nothing interesting - but many revisionists use the fact of service in the Japanese navy as evidence that domestic claims to the Varyag power plant are contrived. At the same time, there are two “revisionist” points of view: that in fact the power plant of the Russian ship was in perfect order, or (second option) it did have problems, but only because of the “curvature” of domestic operators, but in the skillful Japanese hands the cruiser served perfectly.

Let's try to understand all this impartially.

The first thing that people usually pay attention to are those 22,71 speed nodes that Soy has managed to develop in tests. But this is not at all surprising: examining in detail the misadventures of the Varyag power plant, we came to the conclusion that the main problem of the ship was steam engines that were adjusted (more precisely, misaligned) so that they could only work effectively and without fail high pressure of steam, which was simply dangerous to give by the boilers of the Nikloss system, why a vicious circle was obtained - or to give high pressure, risking the life of the firemen, or to put up with the fact that the cars were gradually spread with E itself. At the same time, the author of this article (after engineer Gippius) believes that a similar situation arose due to the firm of Charles Crump, who “optimized” the machines only to achieve the high speeds required to fulfill the conditions of the contract. But in the comments, another idea was repeatedly expressed that the main damage to the power plant was caused in the initial period of the ship’s operation, when its crew tried to solve the problems with half measures, which were possible on the ship, far from shipyards, but which were not at all eliminated the true causes of malfunctions, struggled with the consequences, and not with the causes, and this did not really help, leading only to the fact that things were getting worse and worse with the car. Regardless of who was right, all of this led to the fact that in Port Arthur cruiser’s cars came to such a state that they could only be rehabilitated by an overhaul at a specialized enterprise, which in the Far East could not be taken from. Well, without professional “capital”, and with those scanty production capabilities that our compatriots in Port Arthur had, “Varyag” somehow issued 17 nodes for testing after the last repair, but when trying to raise the speed, bearings began to knock.

However, the Japanese during the two-year restoration work after the rise of the “Varyag”, naturally, did everything necessary. The cruiser cars were dismantled and studied, many parts and mechanisms (including bearings in high and medium pressure cylinders) were replaced. That is, "Soy" received the repair, which he needed, but which was not got to "Varyag" - it is not surprising that after this the ship could give about 23 speed nodes. And of course, the test results of November 1907 can in no way indicate that the Varyag could have developed similar speeds in Port Arthur or during the battle at Chemulpo.

But the further exploitation of the cruiser ... to put it mildly, raises a lot of questions that, apparently, the "revisionists" absolutely do not come to mind. Let's take a look at what happened in the Japanese Imperial Navy at the time when "Soy" was in its composition, that is, in the interval between the Russian-Japanese and the First World Wars.

I must say that during the Russo-Japanese War, the Japanese armored cruisers proved themselves very well. Not that they won any major victories, but the services of numerous "volatile" detachments made up of these ships provided Admiral Kheykhatiro Togo with invaluable advantages in terms of reconnaissance and observation of the movements of Russian ships. Special troubles were delivered to the Russians by the so-called “dogs” - a detachment of high-speed armored cruisers, with which only the latest Russian “six thousand meters”, that is, “Askold”, “Bogatyr” and “Varyag”, could speed up. "Bayan" was slower, and "Boyar" and "Novik" are too weak to count on success in artillery fighting with "dogs." And, in fact, the same "Askold", although it was larger and stronger than any "dog" (if you do not take into account the quality of the shells, of course), but its advantage in artillery was not so great as to guarantee victory - but the pair "Dogs" he was already seriously inferior.



But X. Togo had little dogs, only one combat unit, which necessitated the extensive use of weaker or outdated cruisers (often both at the same time), right down to the old ladies - “Itsukushim”. The fighting qualities of such ships, of course, did not give them any special chances of success in a collision with a comparable number of Russian cruisers, and their speed was too small to escape. Accordingly, to give such detachments combat stability, the Japanese were forced to use armored cruisers, and this was not always a good decision. So, for example, H. Togo in the squadron battle at Shantung was able to put in line only two armored cruisers of the four available, and another managed to join in the second phase of the battle. “Dogs” in this regard was easier, because they (at least theoretically) had enough progress to avoid undue “attention” of Russian cruisers. However, the Japanese also preferred to support their actions with heavier ships.

In general, it can be stated that the armored cruisers of Japan became the "eyes and ears" of the United Fleet during the Russo-Japanese War, and their multiplicity played a large role in this. However, after the war, the capabilities of this class of ships began to rapidly decline.

The combined fleet entered the war, having 15 armored cruisers. But of the four dogs, only Kasagi and Chitose survived the war: Yosino sank, rammed by Kasuga, and Takasago went to the bottom the day after the bombing of a Russian mine. As for the rest of the 11, a significant part of them was very outdated, part of the unsuccessful construction and by 1907, when the Soybean was commissioned, many of these ships lost their combat significance. In fact, perhaps only two cruisers of the “Tsushima” type and only the “Otova” that became operational during the war retained some combat value.


Armored cruiser "Otova"


In 1908, the Japanese fleet core, previously comprised of 6 squadron battleships and 8 armored cruisers, increased significantly. In exchange for the lost Yasima and Hatsuse, they received quite modern Hijen and Iwami (Retvisan and Orel, respectively) and two new British-built battleships, Kashima and Katori. The victim was in the explosion of "Mikasa" was also repaired and introduced into the fleet, and much more powerful "Satsuma" and "Aki" were built at the Japanese shipyards with might and main. Of course, the Japanese also got other Russian battleships, but almost immediately after the repairs, they were counted as ships of coastal defense. As for the armored cruisers, none of them died in the Russian-Japanese, and after it the Japanese introduced the repaired Russian "Bayan" into the fleet and themselves built two Tsukuba-type cruisers. Thus, in the Russo-Japanese war at the peak of power, the Japanese had a fleet consisting of 6 armadillos and 8 armored cruisers with 15 armored. In 1908, the United Fleet had 8 armadillos and 11 armored cruisers, but only 5 armored cruisers, of which only two were fast, could provide them with intelligence. All this forced the Japanese to retain in the fleet both frankly unsuccessful ships of the Akashi type, and older cruisers (before World War I “lived on” in one form or another, the Akashi, Suma, and five older cruisers). As for the Russian trophies, besides the “Soy”, the Japanese “got hold of” only the “Tsugar” - that is, the former Russian “Pallada”, which in its tactical and technical characteristics, of course, could not be considered a full-fledged reconnaissance cruiser, Yes, and introduced it to the fleet only in 1910, almost immediately retraining in the training ship. But Japan hardly built or ordered new armored cruisers - in fact, in 1908 there was only “Tone” in the building, which was put into operation only in 1910.

Thus, in 1908, the United Fleet is beginning to experience an obvious shortage of reconnaissance cruisers under major forces. Here, in theory, the “Soya” just taken into the fleet should have come in handy - fast and well-armed, it was quite capable of complementing the “Kasagi” and the “Chetose” with a third ship: its presence made it possible to form a full-fledged fighting squad of three ships with sufficiently similar performance characteristics.

But instead, the just-completed repair cruiser is sent ... to training ships.

Why is that?

Perhaps the Japanese were not satisfied with the speed of the "Soy"? This could not be, because the "passport" (achieved on the tests of 1907 g) cruiser speed almost corresponded to the speed of the most high-speed Japanese "Chitose" and "Kasagi", and in 1907, at the time of their tests, most likely, " Soy ”outperformed any Japanese cruiser.

Armament? But a dozen six-inch guns that were on the Soi were fully in line with, and perhaps even surpassed, in firepower, 2 * 203-mm and 10 * 120-mm guns that carried doggies, and they had the strongest armament among the Japanese armored cruisers. In addition, the cruiser was easy to rearm under Japanese standards.

Perhaps, “Varyag” somehow did not fit into the new tactical doctrines of the Japanese fleet? And this question should be answered in the negative. If we look at the “Tone”, which was just being built at this time, then we will see a ship, somewhat smaller than “Soy”, of dimensions (full displacement of 4 900), with a maximum speed of the 23 node and armament as part of 2 * 152 -mm and 10 * 120-mm. There was no armor belt, the deck had the same thickness as the “Soi” - 76-38 mm. At the same time, in the case of the “Tone”, the Japanese almost immediately turned their attention to the cruiser’s seaworthiness — well, and soybeans were distinguished by good seaworthiness, surpassing the old Japanese cruisers! In other words, the Japanese built a cruiser for their fleet, whose capabilities were extremely similar to those possessed by Soy, so it’s impossible to talk about any tactical unsuitability of the former Russian ship.

What else is left? Perhaps the Japanese were prejudiced against Russian-built ships? This is clearly not the case - the squadron battleship "Eagle" for a long time remained in the composition of the Japanese fleet. And in general, “Soyu” was built not by the Russians, but by Kramp, while “Kasagi” went to the United Fleet - the child of the shipyards of the same shipbuilder.

Perhaps, the Japanese experienced some hatred for the boilers of Nikloss? Again, no, if only because the former Retvizan, which had boilers of the same design, not only participated in the military operations of the First World War, but later remained in the line forces of the Japanese fleet right up to 1921.

What else have we not mentioned? Oh yes, of course - perhaps due to the expansion of the fleet, Japan was in dire need of training ships? Alas, this version also does not withstand any criticism, because the United Fleet received a huge number of ships of dubious combat value, sailing under the flag of St. Andrew. The composition of the Japanese fleet included “battleships-cruisers” “Peresvet” and “Victory”, “Poltava” and “Emperor Nicholas I”, two coast-guard battleships, “Pallada”, finally ...

The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. CH 20. Under the canopy of Sakura


All these ships were introduced by the Japanese into service either initially as training or as coastal defense ships, which practically did not differ from the training one. And this is not counting, of course, many Japanese armored cruisers, which have practically lost their combat significance. In other words, the Japanese had enough training ships (and, as it were, not in abundance) to have the need to withdraw for these purposes one of the most well-armed, high-speed and seagoing reconnaissance cruisers, which seemingly was the Soya in 1908.

Perhaps, dear readers will be able to come up with some other reasons, but the author of this article no longer has them. And the most likely version of the "deduction" of "Soi" in the training ships looks like ... continuing problems with the power plant, which, according to the author, continued to pursue the cruiser after the repair of 1905-1907.

In support of this hypothesis, the condition of the boilers and Soi machines, more precisely, the Varyag again after the cruiser was transferred to the Russian Empire, can be given: as we have said, it happened in 1916 4 g in Japan in February A commission arrived to receive ships (along with the Varyag, the battleships Poltava and Peresvet were bought out. Her conclusion on the power plant was rather negative. The cruisers' boilers, according to the commission, could have lasted a year or two more from the year, and the rivets in four boilers were found to have eroded, as well as tube bending and cracks in the collectors of several other boilers (alas, the exact number of damaged boilers is unknown to the author). Also noted "some sagging propeller shafts."

The transfer procedure was pretty crumpled, the Russians simply were not allowed to dig into the ships properly. But when they arrived in Vladivostok and they were taken seriously, it turned out that almost all cruiser systems, including the power plant, required repairs. The valves of the boilers, machines and refrigerators were again removed, pipes and manifolds of the boilers were put in order, machine cylinders were opened, etc. etc., and this seemed to give the result - on the tests of 3 (15) in May, using the 22 boiler from 30, Varyag developed 16 nodes. But already at the third time out at sea, held on 29 in May (11 June) 1916, the ship had to be given a “stop machine” - the bearings started to clatter again ... Interestingly, the cruiser did not even try to test the full speed - even a cursory inspection of the commission that accepted Varyag ”, revealed that in the current state of speed, close to the contract, the ship is unattainable.

And everything would be fine, but in such a state the cruiser turned out to be only a year and four months after passing the one-year overhaul of the Japanese! At the same time, as we said above, they didn’t "drive him into the tail and into the mane" - the ship made only one four-month training trip in the past year and 4.

Therefore, the author’s version is that the Japanese, after two years of repair of the Varyag in 1905-1907, introduced it into the fleet, but still could not ensure stable operation of the power plant — the cruiser showed its 22,71 ties during tests, but then again went racing. And if the real speed of the "Soybean" was not too different from that of the "Varyag" (that is, about 17 nodes without the risk of breaking the machine or someone to cook alive), then, of course, such a ship was not a valuable asset for the United Fleet , so that he was quickly "put off" in training.

Attention is drawn to the fact that Japan, generally speaking, "yielded" to the Russian empire ships on the principle of "Upon you, God, that we are not worthy." And the fact that they agreed to sell us "Varyag", without trying to concede, it seems to be inferior to "Pallas" in all respects, speaks volumes. Although it is possible that in fact there were such attempts, it’s just that the author of this article does not know about them.
Interestingly, later, after the return of the cruiser to Russia, assessing the condition of the cruiser before sending it for repair to England, it was considered possible, based on the results of this repair, to ensure the ship to go for several years at a speed of 20 nodes without the risk of breakdowns.

Thus, we can state that those 22,71 nodes developed by Varyag after two years of 1905-1907 repair do not at all indicate that he was able to develop the same, or at least comparable, speed during Chemulpo. In addition, there is no evidence that the Varyag retained the ability to develop such speed for some time while serving in the Japanese fleet, and indirect signs indicate that this cruiser had problems with the power plant and under the shadow of the Mikado flag . And all this allows us to assume that the main culprit in the troubles of this cruiser was, after all, his designer and builder C. Crump.

This article we finish the description stories cruiser "Varyag" - we only need to summarize all the assumptions that we made during the cycle dedicated to him, and to draw conclusions what the last, final article will be devoted to.

The ending should ...
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  1. +7
    21 November 2018 06: 47
    A definite plus, dear colleague Yes good
    For this article, I agree with your arguments on the Varyag CMU - the logic is quite sensible. But we will give real names to strange things about the battle at Chemulpo after the publication of the last part of this cycle. After summing up the results (i.e., in fact, your version of those events) it will be interesting to know the opinions of members of the forum on this battle, how they perceive the inconsistencies, which we tried to disassemble in your cycle feel
    I will personally describe how the battle of "Varyag" is seen from its bell tower, based on my views on things. But it will be later smile
    In the meantime, just a star for the article to Andrei Nikolaevich drinks hi
    1. 0
      22 November 2018 16: 24
      I apologize in advance for climbing to the top ...
      Andrey, I follow the cycle and I can't understand why some of the articles go under the heading "weapons", and others in the "history" ... Administration of the site can't decide? Yes, I personally bookmarked your articles, this solves the problem, but still?
      Thank you very much for your work!
      1. 0
        22 November 2018 18: 05
        Believe me, even the author is not aware of the logic of admins Yes request
        Write to the author a message in PM - maybe the namesake knows better smile hi
  2. +1
    21 November 2018 09: 21
    The Japanese installed triangular Miyabara on the Pallada, and it began to "fly" with a 22-knot speed and did not seem to break much, so the Japanese did not offer it, and why the Varyag did without replacing the boilers is of course a question .. But anyway - Trump is to blame for everything! Ugh! Crump!
    1. +1
      21 November 2018 09: 48
      It’s a bit like lying - Compon boilers (after all, reference books of the 90s - you cannot trust anyone!)
      1. +2
        23 November 2018 14: 36
        To be honest, it is doubtful that it is the boilers. The CMUs available at Pallada were already producing 13100 indicator forces, instead of the design 11610. In addition, four boilers on Pallada failed during the tests, and steam was still enough (there is a fair amount of redundancy), which is why even Admiral Kashernikov suggested reducing the number of boilers (or even dismantling one of the machines).
        In general, most likely, the propellers were replaced on the "Tsugara" and, having conjured with the weights, removed the nose trim.
        1. 0
          23 November 2018 19: 44
          Quite possibly, to be honest, I could not find complete information on the Japanese period anywhere. But we tried to explain the lack of speed of the "goddesses" by imperfect contours, so maybe more forced boilers also had an impact (maybe in a set of measures).
  3. IGU
    +2
    21 November 2018 12: 29
    Thanks for your interesting articles.
  4. +1
    21 November 2018 13: 51
    "it can be seen that their mother gave birth on Monday," ("The Diamond Arm"), and in relation to: "Varyag" it must be said that Crump sat down on Monday the 13th for the project of the ship. Otherwise, I do not see other explanations: Nichols' boilers worked well on other ships, the lack of overhaul is also not an argument. You can't say that our mechanics are stupid: the Japanese have the same problems. Remains "" Monday 13th "
    Andrei Nikolaevich, have you met any Japanese reviews about Varyag: how did they evaluate it?
    I have a strong feeling that the Japanese evaluated him differently. Immediately delight: a new cruiser, albeit after repairs, will replenish the fleet of the divine Mikado, later: the mention of "some mother", and then the pleasure that they shaved off
    1. +1
      21 November 2018 15: 46
      Quote: vladcub
      Nichols boilers worked well on other ships

      Nothing :) It’s not for nothing that the Americans got rid of them immediately, as soon as they got the first results in everyday operation.
      In general, the main problem of the Varyag is, perhaps, not even Nikloss's boilers, the problem was in the cars. If there were normal cars, there would be no such trash.
  5. +2
    21 November 2018 14: 30
    so that they could work efficiently and without failures only under high steam pressure, which was simply dangerous to give with Nikloss system boilers,


    I think you can’t write so categorically, there are reports on the tests of these boilers published in England and the USA. The Americans even created a small testing ground on land, where they checked the operation of these boilers using various grades of coal and steam parameters, and they did not draw such conclusions. The problem was the difficulty of replacing the tubes, this required well-trained specialists and this was a laborious job. In addition, if I am not mistaken, in 1903 or 1904 it turned out that one of the parts for fastening the pipes to the boiler was made of too brittle metal, and if the tube was not replaced correctly, it would crack or break.
    1. +1
      21 November 2018 15: 43
      Quote: 27091965i
      I think you can’t write so categorically, there are reports on the tests of these boilers published in England and the USA. The Americans even created a small testing ground on land, where they checked the operation of these boilers using various grades of coal and steam parameters, and they did not draw such conclusions.

      Yes, they just hastily stopped laying new ships with Nikloss's boilers and removed them from most of the ones they managed to put :))))))
      Quote: 27091965i
      The problem was the difficulty of replacing the tubes, this required well-trained specialists and this was a laborious job.

      There should have been no problems at all in replacing the tubes :)))) I opened the lock - I pulled out the tube :)))) Well .... at least that's what the design provided :))))) But in practice - yes, try , pull it "welded" with scale and so on from the manifold, so that nothing cracks.
      1. 0
        21 November 2018 17: 27
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Yes, they just hastily stopped laying new ships with Nikloss's boilers and removed them from most of the ones they managed to put on:


        I am not saying that these boilers were the best, they, like everyone else, had disadvantages. This is best described in the report of the British Marine Boiler Committee, published in 1904, they still spent four years testing various types of boilers. We can say that they have painted their operation on ships up to the "screw".
        The question is why such a problem arose in the Russian fleet, as the publications of those years write on the Tsushima cruiser, the Japanese themselves assembled and installed Nikloss boilers and I have never seen them have such problems with pipes and high-pressure steam.
        1. +3
          21 November 2018 18: 14
          Quote: 27091965i
          I do not claim that these boilers were the best; they, like everyone else, had flaws.

          So serious that these boilers very quickly went out of use, and the manufacturing company changed its line of business already in 1906.
          Quote: 27091965i
          This is best described in the report of the British "Committee on Marine Boilers", it was published in 1904, they still spent four years testing various types of boilers.

          Practice is better than any report
          Quote: 27091965i
          the Japanese on the Tsushima cruiser assembled and installed Nikloss's boilers themselves, and I have never seen them have such problems with pipes and high-pressure steam.

          The Japanese are generally not inclined to tell anyone about their problems. You can try to determine them only indirectly, for example, having learned what speed the Tsushima and Niitaka developed in real operation. By the way, they are initially slow-moving - only 20 knots according to the passport
          But the most important thing is that the problem of "Varyag" is still 80% machine, and only 20% boilers. If there were normal steam engines on the Varyag, capable of not falling apart when working at a moderate steam pressure, and he would walk quietly 20 knots, and could develop more, but with the risk of scalding the stokers
          1. +1
            22 November 2018 08: 59
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Practice is better than any report


            Not a lot of practice. The battleship Maine cruise from Newport News to Puerto Rico and back.

            "... During the trip covered about 2400 miles, the average speed in the first part was 15,12 knots. For fifty two hours, the ship moved at a speed of 17 knots. On the way back, the average speed was 15,9 knots. Within two hours, the ship moved at a speed of 18 knots. All movement was carried out on natural traction. The operation of the boilers was stable without complications, despite the fact that a significant part of the stokers were recently called up for the fleet.... "
            Capt. EHC Leutze, 1903

            These were not acceptance tests, but a very real trip. V. Crump built a high-speed, well-defended and armed battleship. The training and command of the crew is of great importance.
            The replacement of the Nikloss boilers was not due to an accident, but for a completely different reason.
            1. +2
              22 November 2018 12: 33
              Quote: 27091965i
              You can not have much practice

              You can :))) The US Navy ordered the construction of three battleships of the type "Maine", which were laid in the 1899-1900 gg. At the same time, the main ship of the series - the Maine itself, which went into operation at the end of 1902, received the Nikloss boilers, the other two - the Tornicroft system boilers. The next series of US battleships are five Virginia-class ships laid down in the 1901-1902., became a real triumph of Nikloss's boilers - they received 4 armadillo from 5 (Babcock-Wilcox boilers were installed on the head “Virginia”). But in the Connecticut series that followed, laid down in the 1903-1905 years, Nikloss's boilers mysteriously disappeared - their place was replaced by Babcock-Wilcox products. And the same thing happened among armored cruisers. After distinguished himself in the Spanish-American War of Brooklyn, in 1901-1902 years. a series of armored cruisers of the Pennsylvania type, consisting of six ships, fell on the berths. As far as the author knows, two ships from this series - "Pennsylvania" and "Colorado" received Nikloss boilers. But on the next "big cruisers" - four ships of the Tennessee type, Nikloss's boilers were not installed - only Babcock-Wilcox.
              We also know that the power plant of the battleship Maine caused numerous complaints from US sailors, which is why the ship was even called a coal eater. And it is of considerable interest that before the 1902 g, that is, while the battleship “Men” was still being built, the Americans widely used the Nikloss boilers for large ships under construction, but starting from 1903 g, after “Men” entered service, they completely stopped do. Of course, the logical rule can never be forgotten: “after this, it doesn’t mean as a result of this,” but ... In total, the Americans built seven large ships with the Nicloss boilers - five battleships and two armored cruisers. So, they later replaced the Nikloss boilers with different design boilers on five of them: the Maine itself, two battleships of the Virginia type, and both armored cruisers. And this is about something, yes it says.
              1. 0
                22 November 2018 17: 11
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                In total, with the Nikloss boilers, the Americans built seven large ships - five armadillos and two armored cruisers. So, later they replaced Nikloss's boilers with boilers of a different design on five of them: the Maine itself, two Virginia-type battleships and both armored cruisers. And this is something, yes it says.


                Dear Andrey. Thanks for the extended answer. I’ll try to answer you briefly, I can’t put the entire volume into a comment.

                In 1897-1898, it was proposed in the United States to build high-speed armored ships without sacrificing protection and weapons. Commodore D.W. Melville, head of the Bureau of Steam Engineering, suggested that shipbuilders use different types of boilers to get the result. Maine is the result of this proposal.
                The battleship Maine had a coal consumption of 2,4 pounds to create a unit of power, while the battleship Pobeda had 2.6 pounds, but they clearly cannot be compared in terms of their combat capabilities.
                The installation of the Babcock & Wilcox boilers later on ships was influenced by experiments carried out in the British Navy.

                The replacement of Niclausse boilers was influenced by the campaigns of the squadrons, which included ships with various types of boilers. For example, the trip from San Francisco to Manila revealed that the savings in coal from ships with Babcock & Wilcox boilers in relation to ships with Niclausse boilers amounted to 552 tons, Thornycroft 878 tons, Scotch 490 tons.

                " This is the result of only three months of service, replacing boilers with such proportional savings over several years will reimburse the full cost of the boilers. This will increase the range of ships ."

                Well, I already wrote about the complexity of maintenance and repair of Niclausse boilers.
            2. 0
              22 November 2018 13: 46
              Good afternoon.
              But you won’t go against the facts. Nikloss’s boilers were used in the construction of ships, it turns out about 7 years, and then all together went to the boilers Yarrow, Schulz-Tornicroft, Bobcock-Wilcox, and the Niklosses received a resignation or lived out their time on the ones already built, like the Varangian. And these points speak for themselves - the Nikloss technical dead end.
              By the example of Varyag, a boiler weighing 18,3 tons, the weight of water is 3,6 tons, or 20% of the total weight of the boiler. And here the most interesting thing for the hold - for no apparent reason, breaks one of the 300 tubes of the boiler, instantly several cubic meters of superheated steam fill the MO. Stokers, who are in the infirmary, who are kicking forward overboard. Obviously you won’t like this. It seems to me and you just wouldn’t want that to yourself.
  6. 0
    21 November 2018 17: 26
    In my opinion, the raised Varangian should still have a damp and unpleasant smell for a long time.
    1. 0
      22 November 2018 06: 56
      With the replacement of all wooden parts indoors and ventilation, the dampness usually disappears wink Yes Dampness is also felt in enclosed spaces without intermittent air exchange with high humidity. Eliminate the cause and the problem disappears smile
    2. 0
      2 January 2019 09: 13
      On ships under construction, the tightness of the compartments and tanks is checked by pouring water at the very best. And that's okay.
  7. -3
    21 November 2018 22: 21
    “Varangian” somehow gave out 17 knots in tests after the last repair, but when trying to raise the speed higher, bearings began to knock.

    We continue to crush the water in the stupa about the allegedly big technical problems of the Varyag. A hundred times we have already been reminded that at the last tests in October, the Varyag quietly ran at 21.8 knots. And in November, there were no tests anymore, they tested the cars and sent them to work, until they broke down again. :)

    The author stubbornly confuses the problems with the maintenance of the Varyag mechanisms and the real failures or malfunctions that really could immediately impede the operation of the cruiser. And there were none. You know, the Varyag’s bearing is warming up .. My smartphone also gets warming up sometimes. So what? For some reason, I do not think this is an occasion to immediately throw this smartphone. As it warms up, it cools down. But in order to drown the cruiser, this is a good reason ..

    The problem with the technical condition of the Varangian, allegedly not allowing him to fight, was invented a hundred years ago. All for the same purpose - to whiten Rudnev. I recall that he immediately had problems with his reputation, even on the ship. The Japanese who lifted the cruiser checked and even tested a number of mechanisms immediately, in place. And they unequivocally confirmed that the cruiser Varyag had no technical obstacles for conducting a full-fledged battle. Neither failing boilers, nor bursting tubes, nor even crumbling bearings. Nothing.

    The problem with the allegedly poor technical condition of the cruiser is sucked out of his finger almost entirely and has nothing to do with his last battle.
    1. +1
      22 November 2018 00: 37
      Quote: Saxahorse
      We’ve already been reminded a hundred times that at the last tests in October, Varangian calmly ran on 21.8 nodes.

      A hundred times on the fingers, with quotes, they explained that this was a lie, but what about this saxacors? :)
      1. +3
        22 November 2018 00: 57
        "And you buy an elephant" laughing
        1. +3
          22 November 2018 07: 24
          Quote: arturpraetor
          And you buy an elephant

          I think bargaining is inappropriate here! laughing hi
      2. +3
        22 November 2018 05: 52
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        A hundred times on the fingers, with quotes, they explained that it was a lie, but what about this saxacors?

        Yes, he knows everything, knows no worse than yours. Just eat the hotstsa troll ...
        1. 0
          22 November 2018 07: 24
          Quote: Comrade
          Just eat the hotstsa troll ...

          Wow :)))))
        2. -2
          22 November 2018 23: 15
          Quote: Comrade
          Yes, he knows everything, knows no worse than yours. Just eat the hotstsa troll ...

          Judging by the number of minuses to my comments, all the defenders of the royal "heroes" came here. :)

          And who are your heroes?
          Rudnev - stupidly ruined his cruiser?
          Rozhdestvensky - ineptly ruined his squadron?
          Bakhirev - panically escaping the whole squadron from the only German ship?

          Yeah .. great Russia and finding really smart, brave and competent commanders is a whole problem for some people!
          1. -2
            23 November 2018 07: 37
            And the decision to "escape and intern" to Manila, Shanghai, etc. the commanders of the ships 1TOE and 2TOE were included in the set of standard solutions. And the Varyag is no exception. Only he could not be interned in Chemulpo. The Japanese would have captured it and raised the flag without a fight. For this prison. And so like a fight, a wound in the cheek (concussion) .. and on foreign ships. Subscription to the Japanese not to participate in hostilities and go home. They flew ... hard.
      3. -2
        22 November 2018 23: 08
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        A hundred times on the fingers, with quotes, they explained that this was a lie, but what about this saxacors? :)

        It's funny, but you never managed to refute me. Maybe because I’m presenting your sources to you? :) I'm just not trying to read them diagonally and pull out only those numbers that I like.

        By the way, recalling in the last article about 25 minutes and 19 knots when Varyag returned to the raid, I allowed myself to quote you directly. Please refute me and yourself again. laughing
        1. +3
          23 November 2018 07: 38
          Quote: Saxahorse
          And who are your heroes?

          What a pathetic trolling :)))
          Quote: Saxahorse
          It's funny, but you never managed to refute me

          Y-little little smiles :))))
          Quote: Saxahorse
          By the way, recalling in the last article about 25 minutes and 19 nodes when Varyag returned to the raid, I allowed myself to quote you directly. Please refute me and yourself again

          Saksahors, running around me like that, and looking into my eyes searchingly, pulling at my sleeve: "And refute me in this, well, please!", This is some kind of masochism Yes It’s not difficult for me, but ... What did you manage to play naughty there this time?
          12 time: 50 is indicated in the same Vicksburg midshipman’s diary, Lerry R. Brooks, what did you say about him?
          "It is difficult to imagine that a person in a personal diary not intended for the general public would lie." (c) Andrey from Chelyabinsk. :))

          You, saxacors, have again forgotten that in addition to truth and lies, there is such a thing as bona fide delusion. And if we look at Brooks' diary, we will see that he has a fair amount of confusion over time. He's writing:
          "At 12.15 the Varyag turned west, placing the island of Yodolmi between himself and the Japanese fleet ... at about 12.20 or 12.30 both Russian ships entered the port"

          That is, according to Brooks, it turns out that the Varyag crossed 6 miles between Yodolmi and the raid either in 5, or in 15 minutes, with an average speed of either 72, or 24 of the node - taking into account the fact that it was still interrupted by the ebb flow, in the second case, Varyag’s own speed was at least 26,5 knots laughing
          Could this be? Only in the inflamed fantasy of the saxhorse. The answer is that Brooks, being an outside observer, did not bother with accurate timing, and probably set part of the time from memory without even thinking about realism.
          And then you once again settled in an epic puddle. And what kind of love for dirt is this? You managed to write:
          Well, the time of 12: 25 is the Varangian poked into the island, according to Kataev. And you also did not refute it, even though you were asked to explain it.

          That is, for a second, you managed to believe at the same time Brooks, who wrote that the Varangian left for Yodolmi in 12.15, and Kataev, who wrote that in the 12.15 Varyag just went to the yodolmi beam (according to his scheme)

          Saksahorse, do you have a split personality? :)))))) Or your level of thinking does not allow you to compare a couple of numbers in your own comment? :) I don’t know, but memory laps are exactly yours. Because anyone can familiarize themselves with the refutation of this paragraph by Kataev in the article
          The cruiser "Varyag". Battle of Chemulpo on January 27, 1904. Ch. 16. Culmination (https://topwar.ru/148332-krejser-varjag-boj-u-chemulpo-27-janvarja-1904-goda-ch-16-kulminacija.html)

          Saxahorse, are you tired of being a punching bag? Well, after all, it’s clear to everyone that your attempt to oppose me failed miserably. However, I do not mind - it’s a shame to admit, but the process of sitting you in the next puddle (and you firmly decided not to miss a single one!) Became for me a form of rest and relaxation laughing
          1. -2
            23 November 2018 23: 12
            It's great that you finally agreed that at 12:25 the Varangian was still at the island of Pamildo! Moreover, since we returned to the real schemes, it can be noted that 12:25 is only the time of a collision with the island, and then, on the Kataev scheme you presented, you can notice stomping aground and moving away from the stones in reverse. Nothing if there is still 3-4-5 minutes hidden? :)

            Referring to the bad watches of Midshipman Brooks, you forget that he indicated the time of the death of the Varangian rather accurately. In addition, we are not talking about events for 6-7 miles that are trivially poorly visible, but about a cruiser anchoring right under its side. Well, to compare with the Varyag and Korean logbook is ridiculous at all .. Recently we just discussed that there is not only time, but also the order of events is often confused. In such cases, the watch of an outside observer definitely looks more accurate. What you yourself mentioned in the last article when speaking about the conscientiousness of the American observer.
            1. +1
              24 November 2018 10: 25
              Quote: Saxahorse
              It's great that you finally agreed that in 12: 25 the Varangian was still at the island of Pamildo!

              Are you raving? :)))
              1. 0
                25 November 2018 19: 02
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Are you raving? :)))

                Healthy and sober, which is probably not normal for the weekend ..

                After all, you are not embarrassed by the claim to Brooks eyes, such as you didn’t determine by eye, the Varangian traverse Pamildo passed or not. By the way, I wonder how it was determined on the Varangian. The islands (especially the round ones) have no traverse at all :)
  8. +1
    21 November 2018 23: 55
    Goodnight.
    Even in some ways I do not agree with the opinion of the Author of the cycle, a huge gratitude for the work and, so to speak, for the popularization of the ship theme. Personally, I became interested in this topic after I accidentally stumbled upon a series of articles by the esteemed Andrey Nikolaevich, on battleships of the "Sevastopol" type. Thank you very much. And according to the Varyag, here's the thing. And how much did the endless repairs of the Varyag cost to the Russian treasury? Melnikov has some figures, but has anyone ever tweaked a general calculation of these costs? And are they in nature? Not to mention the indirect losses from the combat unit "in the hitch."
    Dear Andrei Nikolaevich, will this financial aspect be highlighted in the conclusion, to complete the picture?
    1. 0
      22 November 2018 07: 27
      Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
      And how much did the Russian treasury cost the Varyag’s endless repairs? Melnikov has separate figures, but did anyone ever beat the general calculation of these costs?

      Alas, no, I didn’t. Unfortunately, I do not have a general picture, although, of course, the topic is interesting.
      Still, I was more interested in the influence of repairs on the combat training of the Varyag, but I did not seriously deal with this issue, and, unfortunately, the sources available to me do not contain an answer.
      Thank you so much for your kind words! hi
  9. -1
    22 November 2018 01: 04
    Quote: Denimax
    In my opinion, the raised Varangian should still have a damp and unpleasant smell for a long time.


    Yes! Finally, a real specialist was found who dimmed his gaze and revealed the true cause of the Varyag's death near Chemulpo: dampness и smell - it was they who led to the disastrous consequences of the Russian cruiser! Due to the dampness, the bearings knocked, and because of the nasty smell, the Russian gunners had watery eyes and they shamelessly smeared on Japanese ships. This is the reason! And finally everything fell into place. And precisely because of the "unpleasant smell" the cunning samurai transferred the "Varyag", which they had raised and repaired, into the category of training ships. Let the cadets learn to fight in harsh conditions: "It's hard to learn - it's easy to fight!" Now everything has become clear and there are no more secrets. laughing

    PS You see, dear Andrei Nikolaevich, you spent so much time and effort studying this story, and a knowledgeable person in one line highlighted the whole essence of the problem. hi

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

    In general, the main problem of the Varyag is, perhaps, not even the Nikloss boilers,


    Good night, Andrey! hi You understand that it was just a joke. From my side. drinks
    1. +1
      22 November 2018 09: 32
      Dear Sea Cat !!! Sarcasm is not appropriate !!! A person does not know the features on this asked a question ?! This is for you or me or someone else who cares about the topic, it is clear what and how. By the way, with all due respect to Andrei Nikolaevich, his statement is that he will justify Rudnev. Causes skepticism in its objectivity. Most likely he is right in the technical part of the issue, but people are fighting !!! But as the commander of the ship Rudnev is nothing ... By the way .. There is one curious document where there is no signature of the starpom ... No one gave an explanation to this dosih
      1. +1
        22 November 2018 12: 05
        Quote: Nehist
        There is one curious document where the starpom’s signature is missing ... No one explained this to anyone

        And what exactly needs to be explained? :))) Have you read Stepanov’s report? :))))
        1. +1
          22 November 2018 14: 27
          Read !!! But there is no signature on it in the document you know !!! According to the regulations, his dissenting opinion should be reflected. Where is it? I did not find!!! By the way, according to existing charters, Rudnev violated them !!! Why didn’t you consider it?
          1. +1
            22 November 2018 16: 09
            Quote: Nehist
            According to the regulations, his dissenting opinion should be reflected.

            I ask again, did you read Stepanov’s report? :))))) If - yes, please quote that fragment of it where he talks about his dissenting opinion :))))))))
  10. +4
    22 November 2018 05: 40
    Of the main caliber shells extracted from the Varyag's cellars, the Japanese preserved two, which are now exhibited in one of the Chemulpo museums.


    Also on display are the "Koreyets" anchor

    and rifles from the Varyag.

    During a dive to the "Varyag" in our time, Russian researchers raised a number of artifacts from the cruiser, for example this
    1. +1
      22 November 2018 07: 32
      Greetings, dear colleague! Photos, as always, amazing!
      By the way, in the last topic, I did not thank you for Senes, who is Victor-Baptistan. You wrote me the correct transcription before, but, alas, I completely forgot crying As Gromozeka used to say in "The Mystery of the Third Planet": "Getting old, getting old ..." :))))
      "A beautiful body whirled and sang,
      The beautiful body wanted something
      But the wonderful body has aged
      And soon the body was given to soap ... "
      1. +1
        22 November 2018 20: 45
        Good afternoon, dear Andrey!
        Nothing terrible happened, you already have to break between work on articles and discussions.
        Regarding the leitmotif of the article, sending the "Varyag" to the training ships, I will answer in the evening.
        There the answer lies on the surface.
  11. +1
    22 November 2018 14: 47
    Quote: Nehist

    Dear Sea Cat !!! Sarcasm is not appropriate !!! Man does not know features


    Alexander, dear, hi if a person tries to comment on something according to the principle of "elderberry in the garden, and uncle in Kiev," then where can one go from sarcasm. Andrey in his work touched upon serious issues of our history, and here someone writes about "bad smell". Well, you must agree that the article was still about war, and not about amber and perfume. smile
    1. +2
      22 November 2018 16: 49
      I did not criticize your sarcasm ... maybe I just did not appreciate it due to insufficiency drinks
      but it is not necessary to oppress the youth so, I also don’t know what kind of drowned ship raised to the surface is .. Rurikovich, here I unsubscribed ... The question of amber and perfumes was, after all, about "Varyag" after its rise, and not before the battle , so this is not according to the principle of "elderberry in the garden, but uncle in Kiev" hi
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. 0
    22 November 2018 22: 45
    Quote: volodimer

    but do not oppress the youth so much,


    Good evening Volodimer. hi

    I agree, no one should be oppressed. But it seems like young people were not present here. At least, if I inadvertently offended someone, I apologize. Yes, and my sarcasm erupts only on a sober head. drinks I was glad to talk. hi
  14. +1
    23 November 2018 03: 52
    the cruiser that has just been repaired is sent ... to the training ships. Why is that?

    Dear Andrew,

    The Varyag was not the only cruiser sent to the Training Squad. On September 7, 1908, the armored cruiser "Aso" (former "Bayan") From 14 March 1909 to 28 March 1912 both cruisers made three lengthy joint voyages, with visits to Hawaii, the western coast of the United States and Canada, as well as Australia and Southeast Asia.
    In the photo, a view of the "Soya" from the cruiser "Aso":

    and the nose of "Varyag" (the chrysanthemum attracts attention):


    In addition to trophy ships, the following ships were included in the Training Squad:
    - armored cruiser "Kasagi", who got into the Training Detachment in 1910, from October 16, 1910 to March 6, 1911, he was on a long training voyage to Hawaii, during which the cadets mastered the art of navigation.
    - armored cruiser "Asama", enrolled in the Training detachment on June 1, 1910, after which he was sent to the five-month (in total, the cruiser had twelve such "cruises") training voyage with cadets on board with a visit to the ports of North and Central America and Hawaii.
    - armored cruiser "Azuma", who got into the Training Unit on April 20, 1912, and on board which the cadets of the Imperial Naval Academy learned the wisdom of navigation. In total, the cruiser has five long-distance training voyages, and one of them lasted from December 5, 1912 to April 21 1913, the ship was accompanied by the armored cruiser "Soya".
    In the photo, the former "Varyag" and "Azuma" in a joint training voyage:
    1. 0
      23 November 2018 07: 29
      Do not forget that 1910-1912 completed the next era of development of the steam fleet ..
      Dreadnoughts have already walked (since 1906) .. by the seas. So headquarters it was already conditionally warships.
      1. +1
        23 November 2018 09: 23
        Quote: Shturman_50
        So headquarters it was already conditionally warships.

        what No.
        Do not forget that it’s not ships that fight, but people wink One dreadnought cannot do anything with the fleet of armadillos, because armadillos become obsolete with the advent of the fleet of dreadnought. The key to this confrontation is the quality of artillery. If the dreadnought team fails something in combat training (for example, due to savings), and the armadillo team crumbles shields on the training ground twice a week, then I would not bet on the dreadnought.
        This opinion is valid for the first generation dreadnought with 280-305mm art hi
        1. -2
          23 November 2018 10: 57
          The fleet looks at you in amazement ..
          No, it’s good that you rushed to the rescue of your friend, however:
          The dreadnought laid in the 1904 year and launched in the 1906 (!) Opened a new era ...
          1) - steam turbines ...
          2) - liquid fuel boilers ..
          3) - booking (!)
          4) - powerful artillery ..

          Coal armadillos - became dinosaurs and began to die out ...
          (and there was nowhere to load so much coal ..) physics and her mother are science ..
          So the staff of the battleships ended and they ceased to build in other fleets ...
          1. -2
            23 November 2018 12: 22
            Tell the public how the EDB squadron of the (newest) 1904 of the year with the maximum speed of 16-17 nodes will fight with the Dreadnought - having the speed of 22 nodes?
            1. +5
              23 November 2018 12: 57
              Quote: Shturman_50
              Tell the public how the EDB squadron of the (newest) 1904 of the year with the maximum speed of 16-17 nodes will fight with the Dreadnought - having the speed of 22 nodes?

              Look at the actions of the Black Sea Fleet in the First World War at your leisure - you will learn a lot for yourself.
              Quote: Shturman_50
              The dreadnought laid in the 1904 year and launched in the 1906 (!) Opened a new era ...

              Actually, the Dreadnought was officially laid in October 1905, but actually started to build it earlier - in May 1905. But what about the Navigator? He is a specialist - a year earlier, a year later, what's the difference? wassat
              Quote: Shturman_50
              3) - booking (!)

              The exclamation mark made me especially happy. Our "specialist" is not even aware that the Dreadnought's armor was inferior to that of the latest series of British pre-dreadnoughts.
              Quote: Shturman_50
              Coal armadillos - became dinosaurs and began to die out ...

              Navigator, ask at your leisure how many dreadnoughts in the same Germany had coal-fired boilers. Hint - even on Bayern with Baden from 14 boilers, only 3 was purely oil.
              Quote: Shturman_50
              The fleet looks at you in amazement ..

              The fleet, reading your illiterate fantasy, blushes and covers his face with his hand :)))))
              Navigator, how long are you going to get into aplomb with questions where you don’t understand anything at all?
              1. +1
                23 November 2018 14: 14
                Dear Andrew,
                You will laugh, but Saxahorse and Navigator_50 (Gene), on the one hand, and Passerby and hotel on the other, are the same person.
                Kohl, as usual, imitates the crowd.
                1. -1
                  23 November 2018 23: 30
                  Quote: Comrade
                  You will laugh, but Saxahorse and Navigator_50 (Gene), on the one hand, and Passerby and hotel on the other, are the same person.
                  Kohl, as usual, imitates the crowd.

                  Can you already talk with a psychoanalyst? The benefit in Canada is not a problem. You are already the third month, continuously, something seems ..
                  1. -1
                    24 November 2018 05: 51
                    What a twist...
              2. -1
                23 November 2018 23: 29
                Speed ​​is nothing! Fire control systems - everything!
                1. -1
                  24 November 2018 06: 15
                  Well, you can’t ..
                  New rules of artillery firing appeared - keeping the enemy at a constant distance of volley and bearing .. precisely because of the GREAT SPEED of the ship.
                  And so of course - yes ..
                  Fire control systems have also changed a lot!
                  1. +3
                    24 November 2018 11: 50
                    Quote: Shturman_50
                    New rules of artillery firing appeared - keeping the enemy at a constant distance of volley and bearing .. precisely because of the GREAT SPEED of the ship.

                    laughing fool
            2. +3
              23 November 2018 15: 27
              Quote: Shturman_50
              Tell the public how the EDB squadron of the (newest) 1904 of the year with the maximum speed of 16-17 nodes will fight with the Dreadnought - having the speed of 22 nodes?

              Gena, I won't even take the squadron. A division consisting of a trio of EBRs of the "Radetzky" or "Mirabeau" type is enough for me to drive any dreadnought with 305mm art (for, Gena, not all first-borns ran the 22 knots indicated by you - the Germans, Americans, Guardians, the British had speeds comparable to the ships I indicated, or the difference in speed is insignificant in order to quickly change the tactical situation, but the same "radetskie" ones had 20,5 knots, which was at the level of the same first dreadnoughts) wink
              1. -1
                24 November 2018 06: 19
                You have the right to an opinion, like any forum member ...
                Only there is no "alternative history" ...
                There are real laws of the real world, where the apple always falls down (Newton invented - an Englishman!). Why did Togo use "crossing over T", which is possible only at a speed higher than that of the enemy .. This is the basics of naval combat.
                1. +1
                  24 November 2018 08: 18
                  Quote: Shturman_50
                  Why did Togo use "crossing over T", which is possible only at a speed higher than that of the opponent.

                  Gena, Togo used "crossing T" thanks to the Russians themselves, who crawled with the speed of a tortoise. Therefore, this "crossing T" Togo could put at least a hundred times in any configurations from any position, which he used. Therefore, Togo is not so talented, but the Russians created conditions for him wink Despite the fact that Togo was waiting for the Russians, having in his pocket all the intelligence about speed, composition, course.
                  Ask Beatty why he, having a couple of knots of superiority over Hipper, did not manage to put that “crossing T” at the Dogger Bank? Is it because the advantage of 1.5-2 knots is not so significant that he could quickly change the tactical situation in a short period of time smile It's one thing to put sticks over the head of the enemy during exercises, and another thing in reality, with the opposition of the enemy. Remind me how beautiful Scheer slipped out of the English “crossing T” at Jutland? Yes
                  In each case, you need to look at all the nuances, and not give one not too good example for a sample wink

                  Quote: Shturman_50
                  These are the basics of sea battle.

                  lol
        2. -3
          23 November 2018 23: 26
          Quote: Rurikovich
          If the dreadnought team fails something in combat training (for example, due to savings), and the armadillo team crumbles shields on the training ground twice a week, then I would not bet on the dreadnought.

          What are you saying? You do not mind that wide-range rangefinders, directors, the first ballistic computers and the whole fire control system as a whole - first appeared on dreadnoughts ?? Yes, I won’t put a penny broken on an armadillo of the time of the REV against a dreadnought of a sample, even if even in 1914, even though English was even German! Spread in chips with 50-70 kbl with zero response.
          1. 0
            24 November 2018 08: 25
            Quote: Saxahorse
            Yes, I won’t put a penny broken on an armadillo of the time of the REV against a dreadnought of a sample, even if even in 1914, even though English was even German!

            Oh, have you given too much a run-up? wink It was about the last pre-dreadnought against the first dreadnought. And they appeared almost at the same time. Because you don’t have to turn everything upside down wink In the 14th year, the British were already exploiting battleships with 13.5 "artillery with might and main.
          2. +2
            24 November 2018 10: 31
            Quote: Saxahorse
            You do not mind that wide-range rangefinders, directors, the first ballistic computers and the whole fire control system as a whole - first appeared on dreadnoughts ??

            What year? wink
            http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/WeaponBook/NB/02.htm
            Read at your leisure "Devices." "Rangefinders" and "Fire control systems." This applies to the British fleet at the time of WWI. And at the same time ask yourself - if wide-base rangefinders appeared (among the British, they were trendsetters lol ) only during the war, could the first dreadnoughts have fire control means different from the last battleships? For everything you said appeared later than the first dreadnought and the last pre-dreadnought. So the capabilities of the last battleships in terms of fire control were at the level of the first dreadnoughts
            1. -1
              25 November 2018 18: 57
              Quote: Rurikovich
              So the capabilities of the last battleships in terms of fire control were at the level of the first dreadnoughts

              The last battleships managed to be renamed battleships in many places :) It seems to me that you do not fully understand that the dreadnought is primarily not guns, but fire control systems! Look at the Dreadnought's tripod masts. The British knew exactly why and why they were building this war machine. But Russian (and not only) copies, such as Sevastopol, there yes .. Copying at the monkey level, it seems, but they forgot to screw the most important thing. Compare photos of Sevastopol and Marat for example.
      2. 0
        23 November 2018 13: 56
        Buddy "Gene", good morning. And you can’t at all without trolling, did he enter your flesh and blood?
        What kind of dreadnoughts plowed the seas in 1906, can you list them by name?
        1. 0
          24 November 2018 06: 10
          I am surprised at you .. And that the Dreadnought himself was born?
          And then everyone began to think what to do with it? ...

          While in 1904 the "newest" EBR 2TOE were dragged to Tsushima - they were completely outdated.
          A new class of ships has appeared with new capabilities, new means ...
          Liquid fuel (oil) provided an increase in power (not due to the number of boilers and firemen), but due to the high (1,6 times) anti-coal energy efficiency (!). It is against the best coals ...
          Yes, the volume of coal in bulk 1,7 times (bulk density) takes up space ...
          Turbines are generally a step forward - the efficiency is different.
          But it’s not enough to think up, build - TASKS were already ready.
          The battle tactics changed .. the first turbine was tested before 1850 in England.

          Here is the training material for you: .. who is there who trolls ..

          “By the last quarter of the XIX century. the steam engine for marine vessels has essentially exhausted the possibilities of fundamental improvement. Further development of the navy began to depend on the introduction of fundamentally new types of engines. In addition, the transition to the use of the propeller as the main propulsion of the ship posed the problem of improving the engine. The steam engine, which had a rectilinear movement of the working rod, required a special mechanism for converting this movement to rotational, which reduced the efficiency. A turbine-type engine revolutionized the entire engine-propulsion-ship system. This is explained by the fact that an increase in the speed of rotation of the propeller requires a restructuring of the propulsion forms, and a change in the shape of the screw together with an increase in the speed of rotation causes an increase in the speed of the ship, which leads to a significant modernization of the entire ship structure. ”
          This is the alphabet ...
          What kind of trolling ... shame ... and in Russia there was oil. The stoker mentors were
          I found the coal fleet ... in ship graveyards ..
          1. +4
            24 November 2018 10: 24
            Quote: Shturman_50
            Here is the training material for you: .. who is there who trolls ..

            Tighten and master your "study material" yourself
            Quote: Shturman_50
            By the last quarter of the XIX century. the steam engine for marine vessels has essentially exhausted the possibilities of fundamental improvement.

            STEAM ENGINE. You write
            Quote: Shturman_50
            Coal armadillos - became dinosaurs and began to die out ...

            That is, you don’t even understand the difference between the engine and boilers, and, of course, you don’t know that many turbine ships used coal-fired boilers ...
            Gene, I repeat - where are you going? :))))) You don’t know the AZOV
          2. -1
            25 November 2018 03: 37
            Quote: Shturman_50
            What is trolling ... shame.

            In short, Sklifosovsky!
            Will you finally list
            dreadnought

            that
            already walked (from 1906 years) .. by the seas.
            ?
            You know, every time you are pushed against the wall, I involuntarily recall the phrase of instructor Khrapov from Novikov-Priboy's story "Captain 1st Rank": "Would you even regret my fists: I beat them off your stupid head".
            But seriously, are you really not tired of the punching bag role?
  15. +2
    23 November 2018 04: 26
    I forgot to add that "Tsugaru" (formerly "Pallada"), which showed very good speed during sea trials, was also enrolled in the Training Unit. But unlike those listed above, this cruiser almost never left the Japanese waters. Cadets on board studied mechanical engineering.

    Fragments more close up.




    "Cadres decide everything" (Comrade Stalin).
    1. +1
      23 November 2018 14: 46
      Quote: Comrade
      "Cadres decide everything" (Comrade Stalin).

      Valentine, welcome! hi
      The IVS was undoubtedly right - his thought is relevant at any time in any business Yes
      But, Andrei Nikolaevich is already finishing his next cycle on the REV and I am already wondering if your article on the EDB promised to us will be released .... feel
      And then the namesake if he finds work (God forbid, of course - that I wish him with all my heart), then similar articles on ships of the beginning of the last century we will not see soon Yes request
      With great respect, also Andrei Nikolaevich drinks hi
      1. +1
        23 November 2018 15: 09
        Hello Andrey !

        The article is promised to you in a high degree of readiness, but something still needs to be clarified and supplemented.
        As a sin, two months ago I got into an accident. Knee surgery, then crutches, on which he jumped to work.
        wink
        Now at work, I’ve been rummaging after rummaging, so exhausting in a week that all Sunday you just sleep and eat.
        But before the New Year I will definitely lay out, albeit in an unfinished form.
        We’ll finish the discussions. There is a lot of unexpected, there will be where our trolls roam.
        laughing
        Sincerely, Valentine.
        1. +1
          23 November 2018 15: 17
          Quote: Comrade
          An article promised to you in a high degree of readiness, but something still needs to be clarified and supplemented

          Get well soon. smile Nobody drives to the neck, just asked for clarification Yes , because the announcement sounded wink
          Your materials in the comments (and in the articles) are very interesting, so please forgive my little impatience feel
          hi
  16. 0
    23 November 2018 11: 40
    I applaud while standing!
    An excellent series of articles based on extensive factual material and well-founded assumptions!
    As can be seen from the comments, either the trolls or those who long ago formed their opinion on this topic and it is the only right one for them to object.
    I personally have never climbed into the battle in uniforms and was not a supporter of any points of view, so the author’s cycle of articles convinces me completely.
    Bravo again!
    1. -2
      23 November 2018 12: 23
      The performance was a success ... Only in life was it different!
      Well, at least you were satisfied ...
    2. +2
      23 November 2018 14: 55
      Quote: snerg7520
      As can be seen from the comments, either the trolls or those who long ago formed their opinion on this topic and it is the only right one for them to object.

      what ...
      On Earth, 7 lard of the population, which means 7 lard of opinions wink
      It is one thing when a disagreeing opponent makes logical arguments in support of his own opinion and they are quite sound, although they may not be true for a number of reasons, and another thing is when a disagreeing opponent spits on all logic and common sense and shouts that there was only and not otherwise, despite the fact that his arguments are smashed by common sense Yes
      Therefore, you must always carefully consider every opinion and not judge all those who object negatively. smile
      1. -3
        23 November 2018 23: 41
        Quote: Rurikovich
        On Earth, 7 lard of the population, which means 7 lard of opinions

        There can be no lard of opinions about concrete physical phenomena. If the cruiser has two pipes, then there are really two of them and not three or ten, regardless of the opinion of any different authors :)))

        The same thing about Varyag, if he showed 21.8 knots in tests, then this is exactly the speed that he showed. Again, despite the lace and cunning of different authors :)
        1. +2
          24 November 2018 11: 48
          Quote: Saxahorse
          The same thing about Varyag, if he showed 21.8 nodes in tests, then this is exactly the speed that he showed

          But he did not show it, and this is a well-known fact. And you "pulled" 21,8 knots by translating the speed (at which the machines began to warm up) into the ship's displacement during trials that you invented :))))
          1. -2
            25 November 2018 18: 42
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And you "pulled" 21,8 knots by translating the speed (at which the machines began to warm up) into the ship's displacement during the tests, which you invented :)

            Gee gee gee gee :))) We already come up with a displacement ?? But isn’t it that the displacement is strictly spelled out in the contract with Kramp, and for the deviations a large ah-ah-ah in money is relied on? laughing
            1. +2
              26 November 2018 11: 31
              Quote: Saxahorse
              We already come up with a displacement ??

              Not us, but you :)))) We know very well the displacement of the "Varyag" in Arthur :)))
  17. 0
    24 November 2018 04: 08
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Yes, I won’t put a penny broken on an armadillo of the time of the REV against a dreadnought of a sample, even if 1914, at least English, even German! Spread to chips with 50-70 kbl with zero response.

    Gene, almost as always, you are wrong.
    Respected Rurikovich Told you that
    "The key to this confrontation is the quality of artillery. If the dreadnought team fails something in combat training (for example, because of savings), and the armadillo team crumbles shields on the training ground twice a week, then I would not bet on the dreadnought. This opinion is valid for the first generation dreadnought with 280-305mm art",
    and it is true. And your objections to him - trolling or ignorance (underline as necessary).

    Let us consider, for example, the practice firing of 12 "guns from the battleship Shikishima (in 1905) and the dreadnought" Hercules "(in 1911).

    According to G. Staff, described in his book "The Battle of Jutland through the Eyes of the Germans," the dreadnoughts from both sides fired single-gun salvoes from two, much less often from three towers.
    If we extrapolate the results of training firing on a real combat situation, then on one a dreadnought shell hits almost four hits from an armadillo. Ultimately, accuracy in any battle is decisive and, most importantly, the distribution of hits. Given the training of Japanese artillerymen from this particular armadillo, they had excellent chances to incapacitate a successful hit or simply discourage this particular dreadnought from continuing the battle.
    1. 0
      24 November 2018 14: 24
      Quote: Comrade
      According to G. Staff, described in his book "The Battle of Jutland through the Eyes of the Germans," the dreadnoughts from both sides fired single-gun salvoes from two, much less often from three towers.

      I will quote the words of von Haase, senior artilleryman of the battle cruiser Derflinger, during the beginning of the Battle of Jutland.
      16.48 The muffled sound of the "Lützow" salvo is heard, and at the same time the signal "Open fire" is raised. At the same second I shouted: "Sight 15000 m (80 cab.). Volley!" It takes almost 30 seconds until all three fall indicators beep. The falls were good in terms of accuracy, but to the right and a long flight. They fired one gun in each turret - four rounds in a salvo. A second volley followed. Another flight. The third and fourth volleys were migratory again, despite the fact that after the third I reduced the firing distance by 800 m.

      Shooting was carried out by single-weapon volleys of all four towers.
      And data on the shooting of the battle cruiser "Luttsov"
      At 16.35 pm Hipper ordered his cruisers to "split targets on the left." This meant that "Lützow" had to shoot at the lead British ship "Lion" and at 16.48:16800 pm from a distance of 90 m (XNUMX cab.) With a range finder, he fired the first salvo from two bow towers. His shooting, under the direction of the senior artilleryman of frigate-captain Paschen, was probably the most effective of all German ships.

      Unlike the rest of the cruisers, at least during the "run to the south", she alternately fired four bow and four stern guns of the main battery, instead of one gun from each turret, initially using high-explosive shells with a bottom fuse instead of armor-piercing. At the same time, both turret guns fired as a whole, loaded together and guided by one person. After loading, complete silence ensued in the turret and the gunner only cared that the sights were set for derivation (systematic lateral deviation from the throwing plane of a rapidly rotating projectile as it moves in the air along a vertical trajectory). The smoke from the shots was always at one end of the ship, allowing, if not both, then one artillery fire control post to be able to observe the battlefield. To get a more complete picture of the battle, throughout the battle, Captain-zur-see Harder, accompanied by the signalman Lieutenant-zur-see Schoenfeld, remained outside the wheelhouse on an unprotected bridge.

      hi
      1. +1
        25 November 2018 03: 58
        Quote: Rurikovich
        Shooting was carried out by single-weapon volleys of all four towers.

        In that particular episode, yes.

        In confirmation of the above thesis about the firing of two main-caliber towers as the main method of firing during the Battle of Jutland - the frenzied consumption of shells of several English ships.
        - Battle cruiser "Princess Royal". Tower A - 34 rounds, tower B - 78 shells, tower Q - 78 shells, tower X - 40 shells.
        - Battle cruiser "Tiger". Tower A - 87 shells, tower B - 109 shells
        Tower Q and Tower X fired 107 shells together.
        - Battleship "Benbow". Tower A - 12 shells, tower B - 12 shells, tower Q - 4 shells, tower X - 5 shells, tower Y - 5 shells.
        1. 0
          25 November 2018 08: 47
          I don’t argue, Valentine hi
          I just cited data on the Germans as a confirmation of your words above smile
    2. 0
      25 November 2018 20: 24
      Quote: Comrade
      Gene, almost as always, you are wrong.

      Are you taking me for a crocodile? I am aware that weed was allowed in Canada, but I did not think that the consequences would be noticeable so quickly. laughing

      Quote: Comrade
      If we extrapolate the results of training firing to a real combat situation, then for one hit of a projectile from a dreadnought, there are almost four hits from an armadillo.

      Quoting this bunch of data, you remembered that under Tsushima they shot at 15-38 cable and at Yurtland at 50-75 kbl.? And yes, the idea is correct, the more hits the better, of course. fool
      1. 0
        26 November 2018 00: 03
        Quote: Saxahorse
        Quoting this bunch of data, you remembered that under Tsushima they shot at 15-38 cable and at Yurtland at 50-75 kbl.?

        I was talking about accuracy on training shooting, and you, Nikolai, sitting in a puddle, started talking about fighting distances.
        Once again, the essence of my comment.
        As rightly considers Rurikovich (the thesis of which I illustrated with numbers), a battleship with well-trained artillerymen ("Shikishima") had a good chance of hitting or driving away a dreadnought whose artillerymen had worse training compared to the enemy ("Hercules").
        A troll like you to prove it (like anything at all) is useless, so I, taking an example from the author of this article, simply provide training shooting data for others who may be interested.
        1. 0
          26 November 2018 22: 46
          Quote: Comrade
          the battleship with well-trained artillerymen ("Shikishima") had a good chance of hitting or driving away the dreadnought, the artillerymen of which had worse training than the enemy ("Hercules").

          The main thing seems to have not come to you. No matter how trained the armadillo’s crew, they physically have neither instruments, nor algorithms for shooting, maintaining and destroying targets at distances of more than 50 kbl. Not to mention the fact that not every armadillo has a UVN sufficient to fire at such distances.

          You still take on board the battleship. Nonche is back in fashion.
  18. -1
    22 January 2021 16: 47
    a lot of literature and materials on this matter. The situation is hopeless, our ships are doomed. But the Varyag had a chance to leave, leaving Koreyets behind. Based on capitalist logic - to flood Koreyets, remove the crew and go for a breakthrough on the Varyag. But we have a different upbringing, a different ideology. The Korean captain would never agree to such a step. As a result, we have guaranteed losses of 2 ships, although 1 had a chance ...