It's time to learn from the enemy

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Naval construction in post-Soviet Russia is an example of a combination of stupidity and inefficiency. Allocated to recovery fleet cash only led to an increase in the scale of the mistakes of those who were responsible for their development. This situation is absolutely intolerable, and there is an opinion that the patience of the political leadership is already running out. But how to make the construction of the fleet, especially shipbuilding, a more efficient and meaningful process? One way to achieve this is to turn to the experience of our enemies (Americans). In the end, if you learn from anyone, then from the very best, right?

Let us turn to what the rules in naval construction are guided and guided by our enemy and what the rules follow to follow.



It's time to learn from the enemy


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In the early seventies, the US Navy experienced an ideological and organizational crisis. One of its consequences was that the Soviet Navy was able to seriously "push" the US in the oceans, and, in some cases, force the Americans to retreat. This demonstration of force, however, only angered the Americans and forced them to sharply increase the pressure on the USSR in order to finally crush it. We must carefully study the experience of American naval construction at the end of the Cold War and after it, and be sure to use it.

At the end of 1971, the American ally, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, which unleashed a war with India, found itself in a difficult situation. The Indian forces conducted a successful offensive on land, and the Indian Navy was able to inflict catastrophic losses on Pakistan at sea. Under these conditions, the United States, despite its employment in Vietnam, sent the TG74 aircraft carrier strike group, led by the atomic aircraft carrier Enterprise, to the Indian Ocean. The goal of the AUG was to pressure India, forcing India to withdraw from the front Aviation to counter the hypothetical attack of the AUG, distracting the Wikrant aircraft carrier from fighting and keeping India from an offensive in Western Pakistan. Together, this was supposed to ease the situation of Pakistan.

But the pressure did not work out: in the Indian Ocean, AUG stumbled upon a Soviet compound as part of the 1134 Vladivostok missile cruiser (formerly classified as BOD), the Varyag 58 missile cruiser, the 56 destroyer of the Excited project, the 61 BDS project cruiser , the nuclear submarine of the 675 "K-31" project, armed with anti-ship cruise missiles, the 651 "K-120" missile diesel submarine, and six torpedoes D EPL of 641 ave. Also in the squad included amphibious ship and support ships. The Americans were forced to retreat. It was a formidable sign - the Russians showed that, although their fleet was inferior in numbers to the US Navy, it was technologically at least equal and already had enough power to disrupt the plans of the Americans. Our sailors behaved very boldly and seriously forced the Americans to be nervous.

The TG74 hike turned into a meaningless cruise, and in January AUG received an order to leave.

At the same time, in December 1972, the USSR launched the aircraft-carrying cruiser “Kiev” - its first aircraft-carrying combat ship.

In the spring of 1973, the US was forced to get out of Vietnam, which significantly demoralized the personnel of all types of their armed forces.

But the main slap in the US Navy got 1973 in the fall, during the next Arab-Israeli war. Then the Navy deployed in the Mediterranean a grouping of nineteen warships and sixteen submarines, including nuclear ones. Missile submarines were continuously kept at bay by the crews of American ships, which then had nothing to defend against a more or less dense volley. Tu-16 continuously "hung" in the sky over the American ship connections. The US Navy had a general superiority over our fleet — there were two aircraft carriers alone, and the entire 6 fleet of the US Navy had forty-eight warships in the region, combined into three units — two aircraft carrier and one landing force. But the very first volley of Soviet submarines would seriously change the situation in a direction unfavorable for the Americans, would have very significantly thinned the Navy, and they understood that.

The United States has not entered into hostilities on the side of Israel, although it must be admitted that Israel itself managed, albeit “on the brink”. However, the stop of the Israeli tanks on the way to Cairo, the Arabs owe it to the USSR. At that time, the Soviet marines were already embarking on ships to land in the vicinity of the Suez Canal, and the air bridge from the USSR to the Arab countries was stopped in order to allocate the necessary number of aircraft for the Airborne Forces. The USSR was really going to enter the war if Israel did not stop, and a powerful fleet was a guarantee that this entry was realizable.

For Americans, this state of affairs was unacceptable. They are accustomed to consider themselves masters of the seas and oceans, and the fact that they are treated like this, led the American establishment into a rage.

In the 1975 year, during numerous meetings at the Pentagon and the White House, the US political leadership decided that it was necessary to “reverse the trend” and begin to put pressure on the Russians themselves, returning to unconditional domination in the ocean zone. In the 1979 year, when a friendly at the time China attacked the Americans is certainly hostile to them Vietnam, the Americans sent AUG to Vietnam as part of the idea of ​​“returning to business” in order to support them and put pressure on Hanoi during the fighting with the Chinese. But AUG ran into Soviet submarines. And again, nothing happened ...

Americans bet on technology. From the seventies, the Ticonderoga class cruisers, the Spruans destroyers, the Tarava UDC, the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier aircraft began to enter service, the construction of the Ohio SSBN began (the lead boat was commissioned in 1981). They were "helped" by the brainchild of the High-Low Navy concept of Admiral Zumwalt Perry-class frigates - the workhorse of the Navy. They didn’t stand out for anything special in terms of technical perfection, but there were a lot of them and they were actually effective against submarines.

But their opponent did not stand still. Aircraft-carrying strike ships of the 1143 project appeared, extremely dangerous with the very first strike that the Americans feared, the number of anti-submarine ships of the 1135 project, which were much more efficient than their predecessors, increased; weaponssuch as the Tu-22M bomber, the ARLO Ka-25РЦ helicopter, and from the end of the seventies a series of new destroyers of a large displacement were laid, allegedly surpassing any American surface ship in striking power. These were the destroyers of the 956 project. In 1977, the first BOD of the 1155 project was laid, which was destined to become a record anti-submarine in efficiency.

Finally, the 1977 nuclear missile cruiser of the 1144 project was launched in XNUMX, which alone required a full-fledged AUG to counter, and was able to crush a small country Navy without support.

At the same time, at the end of the seventies, the noisiness of Soviet nuclear submarines dropped sharply, and the USSR already surpassed the United States in the number of submarines.

All this in many ways leveled the Americans' stakes on technology - not only they had the technology. In addition, some technologies were only in the USSR - for example, titanium submarines or supersonic anti-ship missiles.

The situation for the Americans was depressing. Their domination of the oceans came to an end. It was necessary to do something. The idea of ​​fighting the USSR Navy was needed, and a leader was needed who was able to generate and implement this idea.

This leader was destined to become the owner of a consulting firm and part-time captain of the Navy reserve, deck-on-board reservist John Lehmann.

The format of the article does not provide for consideration of how Lehman managed to infiltrate the American establishment and gain a reputation as a person who can be entrusted with the entire leadership of naval construction. We confine ourselves to the fact - after becoming president of the United States, Ronald Reagan offered Lehman the post of Minister of the Navy. Lehman, who at that moment had just turned thirty-eight and who, even with boyish enthusiasm, was throwing his business from time to time in order to take the A-6 “Intruder” attack aircraft from the deck of an aircraft carrier, immediately agreed. He was destined to enter the history of the West as one of the people who crushed the USSR, and one of the most successful leaders of the US Navy in history.


US Secretary of the Navy John F. Lehman

What is behind this name? Very much: both the US Navy’s habitual appearance and the Lehman’s Doctrine, which included the need to attack the USSR from the East, in the event of war in Europe (including the Chinese at the same time, in some cases), and the huge “injection” of the latest technologies areas of intelligence, communications and information processing, sharply increased the combat capabilities of the Navy. This is a monstrous pressure, which the USSR Navy felt immediately after the beginning of the eighties, and repeated raids by the US Navy special forces on Chukotka, Kuriles, Kamchatka and Primorye (and you didn’t know, yes?) In the eighties, and the massive introduction of winged Tomahawk missiles on almost all the ships and submarines of the US Navy, and the return to the Iowa class battleships, and the most expensive naval program in human history - the 600 ships. And here begin the lessons that we would like to learn. Because before those leaders who will revive the domestic fleet, there will be restrictions very similar to those that stood before the US Navy Minister John Lehman and which he overcame.

The experience of the winners is well worth it, and it makes sense to disassemble the approaches of the Lehmann team and his predecessors to naval construction, and for contrast, compare this with what our Ministry of Defense is doing in the same field. We were lucky - Lehman is still alive and is actively distributing interviews, Zumvalt left behind himself memories and a formulated concept, the US Navy declassified some of the documents of the Cold War, and, in general, how the Americans acted and what they achieved is understandable.

So, the rules of Lehmann, Zumwalt and all those who were behind the revival of the US Navy in the late seventies and early eighties. We compare this with what the Navy and the structures of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation related to naval construction were doing.

1. It needs a lot of ships. Any warship is a threat to which the enemy will have to react, spend forces, time, money, ship resource, and in a combat situation - to suffer losses. Reduction of ships is an extreme measure, it can take place either when the ship’s potential is exhausted, or during the replacement of old ships with new ones using a pennant-to-pennant scheme, or if the ship was unsuccessful and its existence does not make sense. In any case, reducing the composition of the ship - an extreme measure.

This was the reason for the fact that the Americans were “pulling” the outdated ships to the maximum and returning the battleships to the veterans of the Second World War. I note that the declassified documents indicate that the “Iowa” were to work not along the coast, but together with the rocket ships — along Soviet ships. They were supposed to be (and became) the most armed carriers of Tomahawk. It is worth noting that their use was planned in those regions where the USSR could not fully use strike aircraft - in the Caribbean, in the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf and the Indian Ocean, and other similar places, although in fairness, the battleships even went to the Baltic. But it was precisely a show of force, in a real war, they would have acted elsewhere.

Similarly, together with the Spruences, the US Navy left dozens of obsolete destroyers, all Legy missile cruisers built in the sixties and their Bainbridge atomic version, their almost the same age as Belknap, their atomic version Trakstan, and the atomic version the cruiser "Long Beach", continued to stand in the ranks of nuclear submarines, built before the "Los Angeles", and even three diesel-electric.

Lehman saw that even a high-tech fleet was not enough to defeat the USSR at sea. Therefore, he advocated the number - the program of the development of the US Navy is not for nothing called the "600 ships." The number is important and God is not only on the side of the big battalions, but also of the large squadrons. So that the ships did not really become useless, they were modernized.

For comparison: the ships of the Russian Navy were written off long before the exhaustion of their resources and in conditions when there were no special grounds for decommissioning. First of all, we are talking about ships whose repair has been delayed and which have “died” under the conditions of this repair. This, for example, the destroyers of the project 956.

Of the total number of ships written off, six units were written off already in the middle of the two thousandth, when there appeared some funding, albeit minimal, but still for the Navy. Two are now rotting in repair factories, with unclear prospects. It is clear that the ships are already very outdated, but they created some level of threat to the enemy, especially if we consider their hypothetical modernization. The BOD Admiral Kharlamov is also rotting, also with unclear (and most likely, alas, clear) prospects.

Another example is the refusal of the Navy to accept the 11351 ships it does not need from the Frontier Service. At the turn of the two thousand years, the Border Guard decided to abandon these ships as too expensive - a slightly simplified frigate with turbines and anti-submarine weapons was too expensive to operate. The fleet was asked to take these PSCR itself. Of course, for service in the Navy, they would need to be modernized and re-equipped, but after that, the fleet would be able to build up ship crews for not very big money.

The fleet demanded that the FPS first carry out ship repairs at its own expense, then transfer. The Federal Border Service, of course, refused - why would they repair what they give away as unnecessary? The ships eventually went to the needles and today in the Pacific Fleet four ships of the first rank are on the move.

There are actually more such examples, including the submarine fleet. Now, when the old ships are cut and there is nothing to modernize, they will have to build new ones, but only when Sudoprom comes to life and is finally able to build something within a reasonable time, that is, apparently, not soon. And yes, new ships will definitely be several times more expensive than repair and modernization of old ones. On the one hand, they would still have to be built, on the other hand, they will have to be built more in number and faster in time. And this is money, which, generally speaking, no.

2. It is necessary to make maximum efforts to reduce budget expenditures, but not to the detriment of pennants.

Lehmann faced mutually exclusive conditions. On the one hand, it was necessary to knock out a maximum of financing from the Congress. On the other hand, to demonstrate the possibility of reducing the cost of an individual ship being commissioned. To the credit of the Americans, they have achieved this.

Firstly, the Navy was forbidden to revise technical requirements for ships after they had signed a contract. After the contractor ordered a series of ships, all changes in their design were frozen, it was only allowed to start work immediately on a new “block” - a batch upgrade that would affect many systems of ships and do everything at the same time, together with scheduled repairs. This allowed the industry to begin orders for components and subsystems at once for the entire series, which in turn reduced prices and reduced construction time. Terms, in turn, also played to reduce prices, since the cost of the ships was not so strongly influenced by inflation. Such a measure allowed the appearance of such a massive ship series as the destroyer Arly Burk.

Secondly, the ships were built only in long, typed series with a minimum difference in design from hull to hull. It also reduced costs in the long run.

A separate requirement was a direct ban on the pursuit of excessive technical excellence. It was believed that the newest systems could and should be installed on the ship, but only when they were brought to working condition, and choosing between a “just good” subsystem and a more expensive and less finished, but technically more advanced one, it was considered correct to choose the first one. . The pursuit of super-perfection was declared evil, and the principle “the best is the enemy of the good” became the guiding star.

The final touch was the introduction of fixed prices - the contractor could not seek an increase in the budget for the construction of already contracted buildings under any circumstances. Of course, with low American inflation, it was easier to achieve this than, for example, with ours.

Also, the US Navy categorically sought the unification of ship subsystems on ships of different classes and types. One of the positive consequences of those times is that all the US Navy gas turbine ships are built with one type of gas turbine - General Electric LM2500. Of course, on different ships, various modifications of it were applied, but this cannot be compared with our “zoo”. Interspecific unification was given great attention. But it also reduces the cost of the fleet.

Of course, it was in the eighties that the US Navy was a “zoo” from various types of warships, but then they had to crush the USSR in numbers. But the ships under construction differed abbreviated type.

And the last. This is a fair competition between shipbuilders and manufacturers of subsystems, which allowed the customer (Navy) to "move" the prices of ships "down".

On the reverse side, in the form of a retaliatory step, the most severe budget discipline was introduced. The Navy carefully planned budgets, docked them with the budgets of shipbuilding programs, and ensured that the money provided by contracts for shipbuilders were allocated on time. This allowed the industry to withstand the construction schedule of ships and did not allow an increase in prices due to delays in the supply of components and materials, or because of the need to create new debts to continue construction work.

Now compare with the Defense Ministry and the Russian Navy.

The first mass ships of the new Russian fleet conceived the corvette of the project 20380 and the frigate 22350. Both one and the other were planned in large series, but what did the Ministry of Defense do?

If the Americans froze the configuration of the ship, then at 20380 it was largely revised, and more than once. Instead of the DIRECT "Dirk" on all ships after the lead, the Redut system was installed. This required money for redesign (and the ships were very seriously redesigned for this). Then they designed 20385 with imported diesel engines and other components, after the introduction of sanctions, they abandoned this series and returned to 20380, but with new radars in the integrated mast, from the backlog to the failed 20385. Again, changes to the design. If the Americans planned their expenses and financed shipbuilding rhythmically, then we had both the 20380 series and 22350 financed with interruptions and delays. If the Americans massively replicated the tried and tested systems, changing them to new ones only with confidence that everything would work, then both the corvettes and the frigates were literally packed with equipment that had never been installed before and was not tested anywhere. The result is long construction times and fine-tuning, and huge expenses.

Then additional expenses begin, caused by the lack of intercooperative unification.

How would the construction of the same 20380, they are created in the US? First, CONOPS - Concept of operations would be born, which means “Operational Concept”, that is, the concept of for which combat operations the ship will be used. Under this concept, a project would be born, components and subsystems would be chosen, under a separate tender, some of them would be created and tested, moreover in real conditions, in the same conditions in which the ship should be operated. Then there would be a tender for the construction of the ship, and after its technical task would be frozen. The whole series would have been contracted right away - as thirty ships had planned, they would have proceeded according to this plan, with adjustments only in the most extreme cases.

Ships would be built completely the same, and only then, during repairs, if there was a need, they would be modernized with blocks - that is, for example, the replacement of torpedo tubes and AK-630М on all ships, the modernization of electronic weapons and some mechanical systems - again same on all ships. The entire life cycle would be planned from bookmarking to disposal, would be planned and repairs and upgrades. At the same time, the ships would be laid again in those shipyards where they were already built, which would guarantee a reduction in construction time.

We do everything exactly the opposite, completely. Only fixed prices were copied, but how can they work if the state can simply underpay money on time and the entire financing scheme for construction will fly somersaults, with an increase in the contractor’s costs and an increase in the (real) cost of the ship?

And of course, a scam with the new type of ship 20386 instead of the existing one and performing its tasks and the same for the 20380 class would not even begin.

By the way, we have many times more types of warships than the United States, but the fleet as a whole is weaker (to put it mildly).

Now consider the consequences of the example of specific numbers. According to Rosstat, the ruble to dollar exchange rate at purchasing power parity should be about 9,3 rubles per dollar. This is not a market or speculative figure, it is an indicator of how many rubles are needed in order to acquire as much material wealth in Russia as in the US you can buy for a dollar.

This figure is averaged. For example, food in the United States is four to five times more expensive, used cars are cheaper than ours, etc.

But as an average, the comparison of PPP is quite possible to use.

Now look at the prices. Headline "Arly Burke" flight IIa - 2,2 billion dollars. All subsequent - 1,7 billion. We think of PPP, we find that the head is 20,46 billion rubles, and the serial 15,8. There is no VAT in America.

In our country, the 20380 corvette costs without VAT 17,2 a billion rubles, and the lead ship, the cut, of the 20386 project, costs 29,6 billion. But where are the corvettes, and where is the ocean destroyer with 96 rocket cells ?!

Of course, you can make claims to the very concept of purchasing power parity, but the fact that we spend our money several times less efficiently than the Americans is beyond doubt. With our approaches and budget discipline, they might have a fleet at the level of France or Britain, but not the way they are. For politically concerned citizens, we will make a reservation - there are also “cuts” there, and corruption.

We should learn from them both financial planning and production management.

3. It is necessary to reduce unproductive and expensive R & D.

One of the requirements of Lehman was the suppression of the financing of various programs of miracle weapons. Neither super-torpedoes, nor super-rockets, in the opinion of the then US Navy, justified themselves. It was necessary to adhere to the standard set of weapons, standard versions of the GEM, unified weapons and equipment, and rivet as many ships as possible. If in the foreseeable future, the program does not promise not very expensive and mass, ready for mass production of weapons, then it should be canceled. This principle helped the Americans to save a lot of money, some of which they used to upgrade types of weapons and ammunition that were already being produced, and they obtained good results.

In contrast to the then US, the Navy is seriously keen on very expensive supertorped, super-rocket, super-ship projects, and the output has no money even for the repair of the Moscow cruiser.

In the United States, however, in recent years, they have also retreated from the canon, and received a lot of non-performing programs at the output, for example, littoral warships LCS, but this is already a result of their modern degradation, before this did not happen. However, they have not fallen to our level yet.

4. The fleet should be a tool for achieving strategic goals, and not just a fleet.

The Americans in the 80-ies had a clear goal - to drive the Soviet Navy back to their bases. They sought it and they achieved it. Their navy was quite a working tool for this purpose. An example of how these things were done was a well-known event in the West, but a little-known event - the imitation of an attack by the US Navy on Kamchatka in the fall of 1982, as part of the Norpac FleetEx Ops'82 exercise. By such methods, the Americans forced the Navy to spend fuel, money and resources of ships, and instead of being in the oceans, to force their forces to their shores to protect them. The USSR was unable to respond to this challenge, although it tried.

Thus, the Maritime Strategy, on the basis of which the Reagan administration (in the person of Lehman) defined the tasks for the Navy, exactly corresponded to what goals the US pursued in the world, and what they were pursuing. Such clarity in strategy and naval construction made it possible not to spray money and invest it only in what was really necessary, discarding everything superfluous. So, the USA did not build any corvettes or small anti-submarine ships to protect the bases. Their strategy was that by active offensive actions they pushed their line of defense to the border of the Soviet territorial waters and would keep it there. Corvettes are not needed for this.

There are several leading documents in Russia that determine the role of the Navy and its importance in the country's defense capability. These are the “Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation”, “The Marine Doctrine of the Russian Federation”, “The Basics of the State Policy of the Russian Federation in the Field of Naval Activities” and the “Shipbuilding Program to 2050 of the Year”. The problem with these documents is that they are not related to each other. For example, the provisions outlined in the Basics do not follow from the Marine Doctrine, and if you believe the leaked data on the Shipbuilding Program, then there are also provisions that, to put it mildly, do not correlate, to put it mildly, , the document is secret, but some of it is known and understandable. Well, that is, on the contrary, it is not clear.

How can you build a fleet in such conditions? If there is no clarity even in matters of principle, for example, are we “defending” or “attacking”? What to choose - two PLO corvettes or an ocean frigate URO? To protect the allies (for example, Syria) in the Mediterranean, a frigate is needed, and for the defense of their bases it’s better to have two corvettes, we don’t have any money for that. So how to be? What is our strategy?

This question should be closed as specifically and unambiguously as possible, otherwise it will not work. It is already impossible.

5. We need a massive and cheap ship, a workhorse for all occasions, which, moreover, it’s not a pity to lose in battle. Alone expensive ships do not win.

The principle of High-End Navy was coined by Admiral Zumwalt, and he was his main supporter. Congress buried all the ideas of Zumvalt and he, too, was quickly “eaten”, but he managed to do something. First quote:
Fully high tech navy will be so expensive that it will be impossible to have enough ships to control the sea. A completely low-tech navy will not be able to withstand certain [some. - Translation.] Types of threats and perform certain tasks. Given the need to have both enough ships and fairly good ships, [the Navy] should be a combination of high-tech and low-tech [fleet].


This was written by Zumwalt himself. And within the framework of ensuring the mass character of the fleet, he proposed the following: in addition to expensive and complex ships, mass, simple and cheap ones are needed, which can be done a lot and which, relatively speaking, will “do everything” precisely due to mass character. Zumvalt proposed to build a series of light aircraft carriers on the concept of Sea Control Ship, Pegasus hydrofoil rocket boats, a multi-purpose ship with aerostatic unloading (non-amphibious airbag) and the so-called “patrol frigate”.

From all this, only the frigate, called Oliver Hazard Perry, went into the series. This non-optimal, primitive, uncomfortable and weakly-armed ship with a single-shaft power plant was, nevertheless, a real "workhorse" of the US Navy, and to this day it can not be replaced with anything. Decommissioning of these frigates gave rise to a “hole” in the naval weapons system, which has not yet been closed. Now the Navy sluggishly conducts the procurement procedure of new frigates, and, apparently, this class will return to the US Navy, but so far there is a hole in their weapon system, which has nothing to fill, and voices demanding to repair and return all Perry that can sound regularly and continuously.

With all its primitiveness, the ship was a good anti-warhead and was part of all American ship groups of the end of the Cold War.

In contrast to the Americans, the Russian Navy does not have, and the industry does not develop a massive cheap ship. All projects that we have in our work, or on which we pretend to be in work, are expensive projects of complex ships. Alas, the experience of others is not a decree.

We do the opposite and we get the opposite - not the fleet, but the neflot.

6. It is necessary to reduce bureaucracy and simplify command chains in the field of shipbuilding.

In all his interviews, Lehman stresses the importance of reducing bureaucracy. The Americans introduced a fairly transparent and optimal shipbuilding control system, and Lehman made a significant contribution to this formation. Besides the fact that the optimization of the bureaucracy seriously speeds up all the formal procedures that are required by law, it also saves money by reducing unnecessary people, without which you can do.

We have a little more complicated.

According to the testimony of persons working in the structures of the Ministry of Defense, there is complete order with the bureaucracy. Coordination of a project or a non-urgent order may take months, and the whole set of our self-indulgence is manifested in full growth. If this is true, then something needs to be done about it. In general, any human team can be approached with a “cybernetic” approach as if it were a car, finding weak and “narrow” places in it, eliminating them, speeding up the passage of information from the performer to the performer and simplifying decision-making schemes, while reducing “extra” people, those without whom the system already works.

It is possible, and such things have been done a lot. There is no reason why they could not be done in the Ministry of Defense.

The loss of naval power by Russia keeps a great danger in itself - any enemy will be able to conduct somewhere far from the shores of the Russian Federation a harmful and politically destructive, but at the same time low-intensity, conflict that cannot be answered with a nuclear strike. There are other reasons, for example, the enormous length and vulnerability of coastal lines, a large number of regions, communication with which is possible only by sea (with the exception of rare air flights), the presence of powerful naval forces among hostile countries. The situation with the fleet is absolutely intolerable and requires correction. And whoever is engaged in this correction in the near future, the experience of the enemy, the rules by which he builds his sea power, will be very, very useful and deserve close examination.

Of course, Russia is not the United States, and our naval construction goals should be different. But this does not mean that the American experience is inapplicable, especially in conditions when the domestic has shown useless results.

It is time to be corrected.
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  1. The comment was deleted.
  2. +28
    15 November 2018 05: 52
    The loss of naval power by Russia carries a huge danger - any adversary will be able to lead somewhere far from the shores of the Russian Federation harmful to her and politically destructive, but at the same time a low-intensity conflict that cannot be answered with a nuclear strike.

    When you need to build a fleet, they do just that, training personnel, modernizing the production base, and not waving palm branches in front of the world. Particular attention is paid to plans for the construction of warships, compliance with the terms of installation, launching and testing. They restrict the desire of "all sorts" to build civil yachts costing several RTOs. In general, the Navy is not treated as a corrupt girl, but as a best friend, ally and assistant. And the lamentations about the lack of money in the budget look extremely stupid against the background of unbridled waste.
    1. +28
      15 November 2018 06: 45
      And wailing about the lack of money in the budget looks extremely stupid against the background of rampant waste. - ROSS 42

      Who will build the Russian Navy? Lawyers who lead Russia, who do not understand anything, either in the economy or in production, but by and large in the government.
      For them, there will never be money in the budget for these "too costly goals". Who, then, will send money over the hill to investments in foreign countries, to the construction of factories and nuclear power plants there at the expense of our loans, to US securities?
      "Be understanding."
      1. +1
        15 November 2018 07: 57
        Quote: vladimirZ
        Lawyers who lead Russia, who do not understand anything, either in the economy or in production, but by and large in the government.

        It is only here on the forum that they know best how to play football and rule the country.
        Quote from the article:
        And of course, a scam with the new type of ship 20386 instead of the existing one and performing its tasks and the same for the 20380 class would not even begin.

        The 20380 technical design was developed in the 2001 year. 20386 is a new project, newer in 18 of the years of its predecessor 11356, more suited for long trips: displacement of about 3400 tons, range of 5000 miles, autonomy of 30 days. 20386 is built to replace 2 projects: the frigate of the 11356 project - displacement of about 4000 tons, range 4850 miles, autonomy of 30 days and the corvette of the 20380 project - displacement of about 2200 tons, range of 3500 miles, autonomy of 15 days.
        1. +14
          15 November 2018 10: 42
          Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
          It is only here on the forum that they know best how to play football and rule the country.

          They wrote to you that a government consisting of humanities is incompetent in technocratic issues. What are you talking about?
          1. +3
            15 November 2018 20: 56
            It doesn’t matter which government. The main thing is that the one who provides the info for the Allocation of money is an amateur, and this should be a military expert for a minute. And he is a corrupt dog. I know from projects 11356, 380 and 386.
          2. -2
            16 November 2018 23: 56
            The government only allocates money (of course, insufficient), the MO forms the strategy and orders for it and spends (of course, partly saws) the allocated funds ... Therefore, the culprits should not be sought in the government, but in the customers and the executive defense industry attached to them ... According to the article : the author as if remained in the last century at the level of 80 years. But over the past time, everyone has long moved away from mass to quality, a new level with an incomparably effective application. As an example, if you previously needed a hundred shells (missiles, etc.) to suppress a target, today one precision in network-centric integration of all means and forces is enough. So it’s better to have one more effective than a hundred helpless ones - you’ll even need less in terms of expenses .. I almost disagree with the author, fundamentally wrong approach, recalls the Chinese big leap with a blast furnace on each collective farm, which ended in complete failure, and with the author’s suggestions, even words about sabotage pop up, these proposed ways look like ....
        2. +23
          15 November 2018 11: 54
          20386:
          1. Carries the same built-in weapons as 20380. Modular is possible only at the cost of leaving an anti-submarine helicopter on the shore.
          2. Carries a simplified sonar complex, obviously less effective than the 20380.
          3. More expensive twice.
          4. Today it is not technically feasible - the Zvezda-Reductor plant is not able to manufacture the 6RP gearbox, when the situation will be improved no one knows. There are cautious assumptions that in two years.
          If instead of this ship in 2016, project 20380 corvettes were laid, in the amount of two units, then their readiness now would be at least 30%. And instead of them we have one unfinished building for the same money (remember about "many ships").
          5. Carries the same radar as the 1007 and 1008 orders of the 20380 project, that is, it has no advantages over REF.
          6. It contains a huge amount of technical risks.
          I will quote from one of his old article:
          The forecast for the ship - the project will not take off so much that it will simply not be worse. It is made "on the edge". At a certain excitement, the tank will fill the hull cutting through the wave, the wave will roll over the covers of the Redut UVP. In battle, when the hull receives damage, deformations are possible, leading to a loss of tightness of the covers of the launching shafts, which can lead to their filling with water. Well, at least the ice will be washed off. Although, with some negative combinations of weather and wave height, an interesting effect can be obtained with icing - on this ship.
          The gun will not be used in the air defense system, since before it are located PU launcher
          Some comrades suggest that the huge composite superstructure will "play", which will make the need to align the radar antennas permanent, and this will not be possible to implement. And yet, yes - it will, and it will not work. They will go from the factory to the landfill together with 22350. The helicopter lift will sometimes break down - at the most inopportune moment, as usual, and it is good if the "scissors" are designed so that they cannot jam, especially in an intermediate position. Then it will be possible to simply lower the helicopter under its own weight back into the hangar. Or just do not lift it. It will be worse if the lift cannot be raised and the helicopter is on the deck at that moment. In an incipient storm, for example. However, a helicopter inside such a hangar, from which it cannot be rolled out, should something happen, will bring no less joy. In case of fire, for example. Together with an unconditionally flammable fluid in a high-pressure hydraulic drive that drives a hoist. Let's believe that somewhere in the area of ​​an innovative high-tech hydraulic system there is something that can start extinguishing a fire autonomously. The crew is reduced, counting on the automation of damage control. And that the hangar lids will not be pinched by a dozen 76-mm shells from some Oto Melara that have flown into the deck. A combat ship, not a cruise ship.
          And yes, if the hangar covers have to be opened under a tropical downpour, everything is also provided there - pumps, pumping out, wiring with waterproofing ...
          Why rain, and even tropical? Well, "Caliber" to shoot from the hangar, coming out from time to time in the DMZ. And there once - rain. DMZ is either from us to the Atlantic or to the south. And there, it happens, it pours.
          And yes, no 29,6 yards. The terms will creep, as usual, and with them the prices. For reference, Arlie Burke costs less than 20386 by PPP. Even now, before the delivery of the order has gone far "to the right" in terms of terms. So no one should count on 2022, it won't take off, and at 29,6 yards too.
          And this is even if the designers did not miss anything. The ship has essentially hollow aft. In order to balance it, the designers made the superstructure of the ship clearly in the center, shifted the gun as far back as possible ... But the weight of the stern is changing. In the minimum version, there are only a couple of boats. At the maximum - plus some container, tons for five, towed by the power on a solid frame, and 12-ton helicopter. On the other hand, when all the missiles are shot, but with the stern loaded, something can change too. It seems the difference is small, but what if the whole thing is not carefully calculated, and the ship at the end of completion will receive a constant trim? The Germans did it. However, I have already cursed it. This is most likely not going to be, a very small variable mass, compared with the displacement.
          Moreover, the modular towed gas is unlikely to once someone will remove. Would you leave the sea without her? To war? Vooot ...

          The only good news is that Putin will still be in power when everything becomes obvious, and will be able to appreciate this tent on his afterburner. Although, maybe it still can not finish.


          Your argument that the ship is better suited for long hikes is untenable - the ship will not be able to participate in hostilities outside the near sea zone due to the small ammunition of the air defense missile system, therefore its long range (and costs) is a thing in itself, to sense from it will not be.

          This ship is not a substitute for the Project 11356 frigate, due to the fact that the 11356 frigate has a multiple of the SAM ammunition load, a much wider range of weapons, including the Caliber missile launcher, which, unlike Project 20386, carries simultaneously with the helicopter.

          Well, etc.
          1. -12
            15 November 2018 12: 59
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            This ship is not a replacement for the Project 11356 frigate, due to the fact that the 11356 frigate has a multiple of the SAM ammunition load, a much wider range of weapons, including the Caliber missile launcher, which, unlike Project 20386, carries simultaneously with the helicopter.

            However, it will replace 11356. 20386 will have a cruising range of 5000 miles, 80 crew man. A full set of frigate weapons, gas turbine engines, with which there will be fewer problems than with Kolomna diesel engines on 20380 project corvettes. More 3 Kilotons of displacement. Autonomy in the area of ​​30 days, there is no doubt. Finally heeded the voice of reason and stopped saving on matches, that is, on displacement, size, usable volumes and areas. The fleet decided on the TTZ, which means that the commander in chief sees a modern ship. In our country, even in large series from project to ship, the project was developing. And with the lag of the 90-x- 0-s, we still have to catch up and catch up with this project, I think, not the last.
            1. +20
              15 November 2018 14: 21
              Well, you can even replace an unarmed ship 11356, if you really think so. And the price tag for him to screw up even higher, to 50 billions, but what is it?
              There is a question with useful volumes, everything is driven into the superstructure and the rooms under it, nothing can be added to the nose - and there is no place, and it is impossible to give it weight, the food is empty, the crew’s access there is limited. This is a new phenomenon in the world shipbuilding - an unhelpful volume.

              And all this on the people's money, by the way.
            2. 0
              15 November 2018 20: 58
              This is full of stupidity. Games of military amateurs and certain enterprises.
          2. -8
            15 November 2018 21: 05
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            I will quote from one of his old article:

            Self-citation is a sin.
            1. +1
              16 November 2018 19: 40
              It was necessary to re-type a new one?
              1. +1
                16 November 2018 21: 40
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                It was necessary to re-type a new one?

                It was necessary to give the correct source, and then everyone can do it - first you post some crap, then you refer to it yourself as an objective source, but in fact it is cheating and demagogy to confirm some of your fabrications with your other fabrications.
                1. -1
                  20 November 2018 14: 56
                  I will ask my crown question: "Do you, in essence, have something to object"?
        3. +12
          16 November 2018 06: 52
          It is only here on the forum that they know best how to play football and rule the country.
          It is not strange, but you are right.
          There are people on the site who are not burdened with the "desire" to use their official position to pull something into their pocket.
          Such thoughts do not occur, due to being torn away from real money.
          Therefore, with an "unclouded" consciousness, we more easily and more logically perceive the goals and objectives of the state. Everyone - to the extent of their education, but just like that.
          And when the foreman has to build a building, and to arrange for relatives to work for himself, and to convince the controllers of the correct expenditure of funds, and to steal those who stole into the jail, then what kind of construction is this?
          Do not blame me, but you were a little mistaken, with conclusions.
        4. +4
          16 November 2018 20: 25
          Two "professional players" in football have more than once distinguished themselves by no means in the professional sphere - there is enough of a four-man man to "sweep" the foolishness, another man with a chair to "beat" with the support of his hop-team - too .. - merged at once ..
          Gopota - she is the gopota. They were lucky that in the morning they were in a civilian area - otherwise it would not be a fact that obituaries would not have to read terribly tearful ..
          I am generally silent about "running the country": the master class is for Vissarionovich!
          About the current "meee-meee-managers" like Luntik and his team - I just want to swear.
      2. -33
        15 November 2018 08: 38
        Maybe you just get out of our country, if it’s so bad for you to live in it, and they’re just robbing you?

        How did you get it already. Do you even know how much currency the same Rosatom earns for the country, building a nuclear power plant somewhere in Turkey? Or how much does Sukhoi earn with its factories? And for him, unlike the fleet, for some reason the programs do not break down, either for the native Defense Ministry or for export. Probably because Russian planes are much more needed than ships. And the Ministry of Defense is well aware of this.

        I generally go nuts with your "logic". To listen to you, the government of the Russian Federation does nothing but take it away from its citizens and give it to someone else. For what?? What good is it to them ??
        1. +10
          15 November 2018 08: 43
          [media = https: //ok.ru/video/1638664180175? fromTime = 1]
          I generally go nuts with your "logic". To listen to you, the government of the Russian Federation does nothing but take it away from its citizens and give it to someone else. For what?? What good is it to them ?? - EvilLion

          What country do you live in? Definitely not in Russia. Or do you feed on information only from the TV? In normal communication, it is customary to communicate with strangers using "you". Didn't your parents teach you this at school?
          I haven't looked for a long time. Watch the video "What do we have there in reality"
          [media = https: //ok.ru/video/1638664180175? fromTime = 439]
          1. -13
            15 November 2018 13: 45
            I live in Russia, and I can clearly see how the country has changed over 18 years. But you all seem to be stuck somewhere in 95.
            1. -2
              15 November 2018 20: 36
              Quote: EvilLion
              I live in Russia, and I can clearly see how the country has changed over 18 years. But you all seem to be stuck somewhere in 95.

              "To teach a fool is only to spoil." You speak the correct (as it seems to me) things. Unfortunately, there are categories of people who understand - only when they themselves are fully involved in the process. The truth is, you have to think about how to get off the tree before you get there.
              But also, the right things have spoken Inok10 and avt. Somewhere they disappeared. A pity.
              The "author" - Alexander Timokhin, describes things, possibly in theory, that have some relation to reality. Only now our objective reality is as far from it as the distance between the scarlet sails and Assol.
              There is another "author" - a certain Damantsev. In his writings, a surprisingly eclectic combination of spherical horses in a vacuum. Usually this is an eerie mixture of some (apparently taken from Western advertising booklets) indicators, which, with their, possibly, orthogonal rotation in the author's fantasies, indicate the complete incompetence of Russian gunsmiths and the onset of complete achtung for the armed forces of the Russian Federation after a short period of time.
              Another fabulous author, V. Kuzovkov, Chelovek writes about Gazprom and the neighboring independent, to a state of complete substandard, once part of a great country and other "hot" topics. But to discuss the specifics of concluding gas contracts in practice, it is necessary at least once to participate in such a process, preferably from the position of a decision maker.
              Therefore, I conclude that writing correctly about real processes is extremely difficult and inaccessible to many (including me).
              Conclusion - "Don't shoot the pianist - he plays as best he can."
              PS The situation of the deliberate creation of a negative image of the described objects on the part of the above authors is not considered in principle. Most likely the situation is like in a horse joke - "A man walks past the hippodrome. He has a crisis in all areas. He sold his apartment to pay off his debts. Here a shabby horse turns to him -" Man - put everything on me. I’ll come first. ”He obeyed. He put everything on this horse. Naturally, she came last in the race. He came up to her, and she said to him -“ Sorry, well, I didn’t, man, I didn’t. ”
              PSS I will not give real examples, because I do not want to get into the situation "And for the correct answer - you will get 10 years." "He who seeks will find" ...
              1. -7
                16 November 2018 08: 58
                I, at least, am involved in the process of living in Russia, and for the last 20 years I remember as though well. And I don’t think for people who themselves, or their parents, were in 97 for six months without a salary, and now for them the tragedy that foreign cars have risen in price is possible to make statements about the incompetence of our leadership. Or they are 15 years old, and they just did not see all this when they survived from the gardens.
            2. +4
              15 November 2018 22: 14
              Quote: EvilLion
              I live in Russia, and I can clearly see how the country has changed over 18 years. But you all seem to be stuck somewhere in 95.

              If many people say the same thing to one person, it seems that something is wrong with his perception of reality! And if this person accuses everyone who is trying to oppose him of their backwardness, then he still has a mess and self-esteem! good
              1. -1
                16 November 2018 22: 14
                Most may be mistaken and not know this. History has proved this more than once, in our country.
            3. +5
              16 November 2018 07: 25
              Quote: EvilLion

              I live in Russia, and I can clearly see how the country has changed over 18 years. But you all seem to be stuck somewhere in 95.

              Well yes! All go "out of step", I alone - "in step"!
              1. -7
                16 November 2018 08: 59
                70% of Russia is for Putin, and only the remaining 30% is for all the others combined or against all. Who is not keeping up?
                1. +3
                  16 November 2018 12: 02
                  Thimbles, EvilLion, and 146% can.
        2. +18
          15 November 2018 09: 18
          Rosatom is building a Turkish nuclear power plant for free if you are not in the know. Hoping for a share of future electricity sales. Payback in the 40s, if built. The rights to the station, power lines and other infrastructure will belong to the Turks. Build at our expense with you
          1. -12
            15 November 2018 13: 46
            Well, apparently, "RosAtom" is engaged in charity work, I only wonder where he got the money and the dominant position in the world nuclear energy market.
            1. +12
              15 November 2018 15: 44
              When you build for free around the world, this is not a dominant position. And they have money from the pocket of the Russian taxpayer
              1. -3
                16 November 2018 09: 00
                I repeat the question, if you build everything for free, then where will you get the money for this?
                1. +4
                  16 November 2018 09: 12
                  I repeat the answer: free of charge for Turks and other Papuans. At our expense with you
                  1. -8
                    16 November 2018 09: 29
                    Again. Why would RosAtom do this? Do you really think that RosAtom and our government love Turks more than us?
                    1. +8
                      16 November 2018 09: 38
                      Rosatom, in any case, cuts grandmas, though ours are with you, not Turkish. And our government signed up for this gift, so that Erdogan wouldn’t overpower over the gas pipeline
                      1. -9
                        16 November 2018 09: 52
                        Once again I ask, what kind of power does the Turks care for, does it not pay the Turks pensions? And Perdogan will make a public blow to Putin for this gas pipeline, Turkey does not have its own fuel. This is where the thread in Bulgaria can pay the president, and he will put a bolt on the multi-billion dollar benefit for his country. Turkey is still a state.
                      2. +7
                        16 November 2018 11: 01
                        I didn’t want to upset you, but all over the world they think that the one who sucks does the blowjob. Swallow the murder of an ambassador, a downed plane, build a free nuclear power plant, return money for gas, make a 10% discount, bargain for cubic meters so that the Turks do not drive Turkmen or someone else’s fuel through the pipes - it means sucking, and not vice versa
                      3. -4
                        16 November 2018 15: 22
                        For a downed old plane, they have already sucked in a few lard dollars. Such excesses never were the reason for war. Pakistan shot down a bunch of Soviet aircraft in the area of ​​its border, no one bombed it for this, and, strictly speaking, they usually tried to avoid combat. So I don’t understand what kind of bombing action you are waiting for. Well, yes, there then, with the Turks, a bus with pilots suddenly took off into the air ...

                        You yourself go every year to the Turks.
                2. -1
                  16 November 2018 11: 58
                  For example, solve a pension issue as a small particular problem, EvilLion.
          2. -11
            16 November 2018 00: 04
            Actually, the nuclear power plant, and all that is connected with it, remains in the ownership of the Russian Federation. Build it according to the principle-system, possess, implement. It is strange that you do not know this. And the money invested in it is not only ours, but also Turkish. Investors were found immediately at the initial stage. They gave the land to us for free. Their only condition was that in my opinion 25 percent of the work should be performed by Turkish companies.
            1. +7
              16 November 2018 04: 33
              This is not so - there is still not a single foreign investor. neither land nor nuclear power belongs to us in this project. only a fraction of future electricity
              1. -8
                16 November 2018 08: 06
                I won’t argue with you. Google help
              2. -2
                16 November 2018 20: 57
                We look, read: http://geoenergetics.ru/2018/04/02/aes-na-sredizemnom-more/
                1. +1
                  17 November 2018 05: 58
                  Well ? not a word about in. investor participation request But half of the project cost was calculated on them! but they are still not there! like a word that the project will pay off with our grandchildren (if it is completed and will work long enough - and for this you need another 20 billion, which no one gives). not a word about nationalization. not a word about the owners of the project. not a word about the risks at all.
                  off Akkuyu Nukular JSC website http://www.akkunpp.com/index.php?lang=en
                  1. -1
                    17 November 2018 16: 34
                    Put 20 billion gives Russia in the form of a loan. Which are going to give the sale of electricity to Turkey. Just a question - prices are already fixed for today. And what prices will be after 2020 in the world?
            2. 0
              16 November 2018 12: 00
              I don’t think you are so naive, Bull Terrier. So your words about something else.
              1. -3
                16 November 2018 13: 00
                With Syom, is naivety here ?! I watch the exceptionally open Inna, accessible to everyone.
            3. -2
              17 November 2018 16: 32
              Actually, having your own property in a foreign land is always a problem. Especially nuclear power plants. And investors all fled.
        3. +6
          15 November 2018 20: 14
          Quote: EvilLion
          Do you even know how much the same Rosatom earns for the country by building a nuclear power plant where is the thread in Turkey?

          How many currencies are Turkish contractors taking away from construction sites in Moscow

          5 Turkish property development companies hold the entire market in the capital
          1. -1
            16 November 2018 09: 00
            Do they get paid in currency in Moscow? And I thought that in rubles.
            1. -1
              17 November 2018 16: 36
              Rubles are converted into dollars in exchangers and exported. Why are you fooling around?
        4. +10
          15 November 2018 20: 57
          Quote: EvilLion
          I generally go nuts with your "logic". To listen to you, the government of the Russian Federation does nothing but take it away from its citizens and give it to someone else. For what?? What good is it to them ??

          And you, colleague, do not go nuts from our personal opinion, or logic, but simply state your own! And let's not "poke" the forum users on the forum, but be correct! Listen to you, so in our country there is no corruption, no embezzlement, no bungling! I know firsthand about at least 3 (three!) Times the required amount, the estimated cost artificially inflated by the contractor for budgetary funds for major repairs, no matter what! And the contractor is already known, and no one from the outside can influence the situation. And so it happens in almost all cities and towns of our country, in all industries! Well done, the author, an excellent analytical article, only paid little attention to the main issue in my opinion - this is precisely the ignorance, incompetence and indifference of a huge number of officials, their engagement by various structures created specifically to take budget funds into their pockets! Very often "jobs" are created for officials! We in Sevastopol had about 850 officials in the management of the city, now there are 2500! hi
          1. -8
            16 November 2018 09: 23
            I am not interested in an opinion in the style of "the authorities are fools, the people are only smart," especially written from somewhere in a Turkish resort.

            As for the officials, I’ll now tell you the obvious secret, there is such a country, the USA, and the image of a superhero, and in particular Batman, is very popular there. Do you know what Batman is? This is a product of such a state of society, when there is no hope for power anymore, it remains only to believe that a people's avenger, Batman, or some kind of Robin Hood will appear. That's how it rotted there, but rather it always has been. In the USSR, for example, nothing of the kind could have appeared, in principle, the arbitrariness or incompetence of a grassroots official would have necessarily been blocked by public control, or by higher authorities. Belief in the state and society had a place to be and culture was fueled. In the USA, people’s brains are crippled so that they somehow get along and the realization that the state is bad and you need to rely only on yourself, and that you have to fight for this state if it sends you for 10000 km with a rifle in hand .

            It is very well shown in such a film as "Grapes of Anger" (the book ends in a different way), where the family is first driven off the ground, so that it remains only to go in a rusty truck into the unknown, ends with a labor camp for the same homeless people. The heroes are given bunks in the barracks, some kind of work, a dance floor after work. Everyone is happy, happy end, no comprehension, but what is happening in general, that people just lived, did not grieve, and now there are homeless people. After all, then uncomfortable questions appear. But we laugh at the Ukrainians, that everything happens by itself, there is no subject or object of action.

            And you tell me here about our officials. Our officials are the same people like you and me, they are sensible, they are stupid and thieving. We do not have other people, we can only control their activities, for which there are many mechanisms, but it is easier to complain on the forums. But if the Americans have the idea that they need to rely on their own strength, then after the collapse of the Union and the loss of faith in power, we still have one whine.
            1. +2
              16 November 2018 13: 08
              The lyrics about Batman and the lack of arbitrariness and incompetence of a grassroots official will be left to someone else .... Although the theme is magical .....
              And as for the control over our modern, well, let them be, officials, is it possible a little more in detail? And then it suddenly became interesting somehow, new opportunities appeared, but I do not know .... I would be very grateful. Say, a rector at a state university receives from him, a university, somewhere 1,2 lemas, and a university administration, respectively. Associate professor (average) of the same university receives 22 tyra. Sorry, associate professor, not some thread senior teacher. The quality of products, that is, holders of diplomas, ....... Plinth is a dream ..... As it was said about a similar institution - at the entrance of oak, at the exit of linden. About this it is said and written, incl. and to the prosecutor’s office more than once. The result is oh, the result is excellent, everything is fine .... Not counting the nearly billion-dollar debt of the state university. Can you tell me how it is now, in holy times, a state university can have such a debt?
              And here's another question, EMNIP, 6th year "Petenka" is sticking out on the stocks, they cannot lower it. In K-n-A .... And when they will lower it is unknown. Such a boat. If there is new information, let the knowledgeable people correct it, I am ready to apologize. Who-thread for this "criticized"? What housing is given to the same orphans, according to the law, by the way, I just keep quiet. Without a great depression .... If you do not like the author's material - minus, and the whole is short. And if you want to object, then try.
              1. -6
                16 November 2018 15: 25
                Are you an adult, asking me how the state is supervised? Let it be known that you are an 40-year-old child, that the main supervisory authority in the state is called the prosecutor's office.

                Take the trouble to understand at least a little the state structure, rights and duties of a citizen, and then talk about officials who, I repeat, the same people like you, studied at the same schools, sat at neighboring desks.
                1. +2
                  16 November 2018 18: 37
                  Let's just say the psychic of you is so-so .... With the determination of age, you were slightly mistaken wink As with everything else ...
                  How the state works, I know a little bit. As well as how it really works, including the prosecutor's office. Not to mention that this is not exactly the Main Supervisory Authority. More precisely, it is not her task to follow resolutely everything. Yes, and as I already said, they wrote to it repeatedly (in the case of the mentioned university), but the result is ...... no.
                  As for working hard - a good wish, would you like to do it yourself? As for figuring out the real picture of the world ... Otherwise, go out in shorts somehow, and on the street a little over minus 30 ... The weather is somehow violet, what do you think. Will you also contact the prosecutor?
                2. +2
                  16 November 2018 21: 25
                  Quote: EvilLion
                  Let it be known to you, a 40-year-old child, that the main supervisory authority in the state is called the prosecutor's office.

                  You are also blind, unfortunately! Dmitry (frog) wrote: "It has been said and written about it, including to the prosecutor's office several times."
            2. +2
              16 November 2018 21: 21
              Quote: EvilLion
              We do not have other people, we can only control their activities, for which there are many mechanisms, but it is easier to complain on the forums.

              laughing Bravo, colleague! They just confirmed my opinion about you! I am sure that many on the VO forum will be interested in how you personally, with the help of what such cunning "mechanisms" control the activities of the officials of your city ?! What city, by the way? An hour not Zurbagan? lol
        5. +13
          15 November 2018 22: 10
          Quote: EvilLion
          Do you even know how much the same Rosatom earns for the country by building a nuclear power plant where is the thread in Turkey?

          The commercial model of the Akkuyu NPP project in Turkey is CBO (build-own-operate) or in English BOO (build-own-operate). At the moment, all expenses are borne by the State Corporation Rosatom, through its Turkish branch. So far, attempts to sell 50% of the project's shares have not been crowned with success.
        6. +1
          16 November 2018 11: 56
          As you got it already. Do you even know how much currency you earn for the country the same Rosatom, building a nuclear power plant somewhere in Turkey?

          Please read the phrase only in bold text. But what Russia will earn and we, its people, is a big question.
          1. +1
            16 November 2018 14: 46
            At the moment, only nuclear power plants in Turkey are being built according to this model. The rest - either for cash (Iran), or on credit. China is paying the fastest.
            1. +1
              16 November 2018 15: 51
              Sergey! I wrote specifically about Turkey. But even where everything is economically profitable, it is beneficial primarily to shareholders, but not to us. The people are only crumbs, that's what I mean.
              1. +2
                16 November 2018 17: 00
                Rosatom State Corporation is 100% owned by the Russian Federation, with the exception of UEKhK JSC, which is 25% owned by the Republic of Kazakhstan through NAC Kazatomprom JSC (100% owned by the Republic of Kazakhstan).
                1. 0
                  16 November 2018 21: 20
                  Sergey! As it were, but not all this way or not at all. There the devil himself will not make out to whom and how what belongs. As, however, with the whole country, once ours.
                  https://www.rosatom.ru/about/factories/

                  I was not too lazy, made screenshots (only a few) and this is only the first step of diving into the question, and there is a steep and winding staircase.
                  1. 0
                    16 November 2018 22: 20
                    Quote: NordUral
                    Sergey! As it were, but not all this way or not at all. There the devil himself will not make out to whom and how what belongs. As, however, with the whole country, once ours.

                    Not without this, I agree. However, this is the internal structure of the industry. Civilian assets are consolidated in JSC Atomenergoprom: http://atomenergoprom.ru/
                    I have not seen all the nuclear weapons enterprises on a single list and open access. Some of them, however, sites are available. For example, VNIIEF: http://www.vniief.ru/
                    1. +1
                      18 November 2018 11: 38
                      asv363! I say that everything is very difficult in who owns ROSATOM. If you take a close look at who the shareholders of these joint-stock companies are and what their share is, and then consider what belongs to the state, then I strongly suspect that this is not even 51%.
                      1. +1
                        18 November 2018 14: 36
                        Evgeny, not everything is simple, nevertheless, the share of state participation is practically! 00%. For example, Rosenergoatom Concern JSC for the last 2-3 years has begun to reduce its operational maintenance personnel and transfer them to OJSC-shki for outsourcing. New and international projects are almost always with the share of Russia, typical examples are ITER and IR MBIR.
                      2. 0
                        18 November 2018 16: 04
                        Sergey! I hope so.
              2. +3
                16 November 2018 21: 08
                And the production "loaded" with orders in Russia is profitable even for the last auxiliary-packer, who drives nails into the packaging of the finished steam generator, which is sent by the Volga-Don Canal to the Sea of ​​Azov .. And the docker, who will reload this steam generator from a river barge to sea transport. And the pilot, who will then see off this sea transport in the Kerch Strait ... Everyone will find work ...
                1. -3
                  16 November 2018 21: 21
                  I agree, slaves work for the benefit.
                  1. -1
                    16 November 2018 21: 43
                    Quote: NordUral
                    I agree, slaves work for the benefit.

                    Well, yes, non-slaves are more specialists in jumping and carrying pots.
                    1. -2
                      16 November 2018 21: 44
                      Rakti-Kali! It is the pan-and-headedheads and hoppers that are the slaves.
                  2. +2
                    16 November 2018 22: 00
                    And under capitalism, everyone is like one - businessmen !!! And slaves from the word "work" - not a single one !!
                    Not in my incomplete 40s to listen to such "tales" ..
            2. -1
              16 November 2018 16: 34
              In total, Turkey, Egypt, Bangladesh and Finland have already received more than $ 100 billion. This money is withdrawn from the budget of the Russian Federation, where it would probably be more useful.
              The cost of the project for the construction of a nuclear power plant in Egypt is $ 29 billion, of which about 25 billion will be provided by the Russian side in the form of a loan with an interest rate of 3%.
              A loan of $ 20 billion has been allocated for the creation of a Turkish nuclear power plant for a period of 30 years. The question naturally arises: who will repay this atomic debt in 2045? Moreover, the conditions for the sale of electricity at Akkuyu NPP are enslaving - the price of electricity for Turkey fixed for 25 years.
              But the most enslaving conditions for Russia are the construction of a nuclear power plant in Belarus. There is data on the Internet, look. So all this is a gigantic scam of Putin’s rule, because when the time comes they will not be able to repay Putna’s debts and there’s no one to ask.
              1. +2
                16 November 2018 18: 05
                Quote: Fan-Fan
                In total, Turkey, Egypt, Bangladesh and Finland have already received more than $ 100 billion.

                You have inaccurate information. Even if we summarize the cost of all four projects, we need to add another 20-25 billion dollars to get 100 billion.
                1. -1
                  16 November 2018 21: 55
                  I also recommend that you read not "between the lines", but as taught in the Soviet school - line by line !!
              2. -2
                16 November 2018 21: 49
                I wonder where the loan money allocated by the Russian Federation goes when the Russian-format nuclear power plants are built by the Russian Federation. Tell me please!
              3. -1
                16 November 2018 21: 54
                We read ATTENTIVELY !!
          2. -3
            16 November 2018 15: 27
            In fact, Rosatom pays taxes to the budget. Just like my factory pays them. This is how the withdrawal of income from legal entities is implemented. and physical persons to the budget. And they came up with it thousands of years ago.
            1. -1
              16 November 2018 21: 26
              EvilLion! You spoke well about taxes to the budget. But how do these components of ROSATOM pay taxes? And to whom do they pay them, and how much after optimizations?
              https://www.rosatom.ru/about/factories/
        7. +1
          16 November 2018 15: 26
          it’s very unfortunate sometimes that people like you can’t just be beaten and beaten.
          a belt or fist stimulates the brain in the right direction.
          but your scribble is bullshit.
        8. -2
          16 November 2018 20: 54
          I put a "minus" for you - and I will explain why: "Rosatom" and "Sukhoi" are those "golden eggs" that cannot be broken. And this is certainly not the merit of the current government, here the situation is rather the opposite: "not thanks, but in spite of."
          In support of my thought, I give a link, so as not to be unfounded: "http://geoenergetics.ru/2018/11/12/chastno-gosudarstvennoe-ministerstvo-spg/"
        9. +2
          17 November 2018 16: 30
          As for the nuclear power plants in Turkey - Russia will disentangle this miracle for a long time. Kiriyenko did a great job. Not only is it doubtful to get this money 20 billion. greens from Turkey when they sell electricity. So also to take out nuclear waste, dispose of it plus after the closure of the station all the dismantling of the station, garbage collection, land reclamation (the same resort area) are also assigned to Russia! And environmental relations with the local population are also entrusted to Rosatom. And the cost of dismantling is comparable to the cost of building a nuclear power plant, if not more! So what effect will Russia get? The enterprises have just been loaded now, and for Russian money supposedly as a loan! And then a solid minus.
          1. 0
            11 December 2018 16: 49
            Quote: Lena363
            And the cost of dismantling is comparable to the cost of building a nuclear power plant, if not more!

            Exceeds at least twice.
        10. 0
          11 December 2018 16: 30
          Quote: EvilLion
          As you got it already. Do you even know how much currency the same Rosatom earns for the country by building a nuclear power plant in Turkey?

          I didn’t minus, but Rosatom is doing vile things in the closed cities of the former Atom. Now there is huge unemployment, because all were taken out of the staff, only shift workers were left in the staff, without whom everything would be covered, and without a reserve for illness or training. The wonderful cities around atomic objects do not die at all slowly. Cities will die - no one will go from adequate people to work there. This will be the end of the high qualification of the Atom.
          Financing of the objects themselves is completely cut off - no modernization or updating.
    2. +14
      15 November 2018 11: 40
      The problem is that in 2009-2016 they gave money.
      But in the end it turned out very badly, financing only aggravated the problems, there was not much use of it from him.
  3. -14
    15 November 2018 05: 55
    All criticism of our naval program comes down to the need to build aircraft carriers ... To the question why ... They answer ... Because .. I would like to remind ... We are, firstly, a land country ... Secondly, we have already lost one arms race and do not need to us second ...
    1. +22
      15 November 2018 07: 03
      Quote: Vard
      All criticism of our naval program comes down to the need to build aircraft carriers ...

      You obviously did not read the article or after the first sentences you lost the essence and didn’t read it. Otherwise, they would not have written what the article did not have.
      1. -5
        15 November 2018 08: 57
        This is, in principle, the answer to a whole series of articles on the military ... About the fact that they lost the arms race ... One fact ... we wrote off debts of several hundred billion dollars because they were formed due to the supply of weapons to the then friendly regimes ... It's the same in the same piggy bank ... and there are a lot of such facts .. I remember the shops in my city in the seventies ... Tourist breakfast and seaweed in assortment ...
        1. +13
          15 November 2018 11: 55
          You saw some meaning in what you read.
        2. +14
          15 November 2018 17: 33
          You troll too fat! I really lived in those days, in the 70's there wasn’t such a thing. In 89-91, yes. By the way he lived in those years in the Urals and oh-al from abundance in the USSR, when he put on epaulettes in 1987!
        3. +9
          15 November 2018 17: 36
          Quote: Vard
          I remember the shops in my city in the seventies ... Tourist's breakfast and seaweed assortment ...

          Now, with all the "abundance" of painted surrogates for salaries in the provinces, it is the tourist's breakfast that you can afford.
        4. -1
          16 November 2018 21: 28
          Vard! Is the name of the city a big secret?
        5. +1
          16 November 2018 22: 14
          Even we have "Northern Ural" very much "under the skin" wants to enter ..
          Tell the city of service to him ..
          Who was - he knows.
          Who knows - will not forget.
          And the rest to know - why not !!
          :);)
          1. 0
            18 November 2018 11: 26
            Vasenka, don’t worry so, you are our secret. You are malnourished in your youth, poor fellow, but here, where, are embarrassed to tell people. Terrible military secret. Okay, I won’t bother you, I’ll regret your nerves.
    2. +25
      15 November 2018 07: 23
      Quote: Vard
      We are the first land country ... Secondly, one arms race has already lost, and we don’t need a second ...

      Firstly, Russia is not a land country, at least in the fact that it has the longest coastline in the world. For the statement about "land", Peter I could well hang on the yard, building a fleet, realizing its importance for the state, spending a lot of effort for access to the seas. Secondly, the Soviet Union did not lose any arms race, we were outplayed ideologically, the talker and dreamer Gorbachev surrendered the country, believing the wolves in the sheep's clothing of "democracy." Well, and lastly, there is no point in building aircraft carriers for the sake of aircraft carriers, if you read the article carefully, it mentions the ideas voiced by Admiral Zumwalt that the fleet should be a combination of high-tech and low-tech ship personnel. In other words, we are talking about a balanced fleet, where, in addition to heavy pieces, there are pawns, if we make an analogy with chess pieces. I do not put any minuses, I objected to you, from the principle, "It's a shame for the state" (and the fleet).
      1. -1
        15 November 2018 08: 59
        By the way, we have the largest and most advanced fleet of icebreakers ... This is about the issue of maritime borders ...
        1. +1
          16 November 2018 22: 23
          I saw something like "work" either "Vaygach", or "Taimyr", as they say, "in kind"!
          That is, this ship spits on what I thought was awesomely strong ice, with a steady speed and the course that he needed ...
          It's all!
          1. 0
            16 November 2018 22: 25
            A meter of ice for him - so, some kind of ice .. He walked by ..
      2. -12
        15 November 2018 09: 58
        Russia is a land country, it is an indisputable fact. In general, sea countries can be called Fiji and Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, England and Japan, Russia is a continental power, and the sea border is present only in the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea, Caspian Lake. only point objects on the oceans, Murmansk, Arkhangelsk, Petropavlovsk Kamchatsky and Vladivostok. The rest of the taiga and tundra, it is too expensive to protect the taiga and tundra when cities with millionaires are exposed. Now about the author’s attempt to put pressure on the psyche with stories about Pakistan, Vietnam and others, but what did the USSR get for this except for unpaid debts? Never mind. If the USSR had in Cuba which is more central than the base of Lourdes, then of course Cuba would have made sense in the sense of helping it. Now about the concept of the Americans, they generally have a lot of money, but the Russian Federation has little. Russia is an American colony paying a third of its income to Americans through Nabiullina, and the same amount through supposedly oligarchs with the help of Chubais and nabiulina loans tied to hooks by the same Americans ..... now about the shipbuilding program. Nyokr still allows you to create new weapons and abandoning it would be a mistake, and it does not cost as much as you think. It is clear that the main direction of the Navy is to support the release of strategic submarines, I hope there are no profane people who deny the truth. So this problem has not been solved properly, it’s just 9 nuclear submarines. The Navy works in those conditions and with the means that it has, politics is something else and we do not solve it. Calm down and forget about dominating the oceans, go down to the earth and decide what is possible in this setting. For the protection of coastal shipping, 5-6 frigates per country are quite enough. A surface fleet on the seas is almost not needed at all, because modern means of destruction simply fly over the seas. Why are there so many modifications of corvettes? Yes, this is an attempt at marketing in the world market, an assortment for a prospective customer. And by the way, the shipbuilding program seems to be determined .... One type of strategic submarine Borey, one type of tactical, one type of duel, one type of minesweeper, one type of corvette Karakurt, one type of frigate Gorshkov. The remaining ships in the series will no longer go. So the evidence is clear not only to us. We just have a lot of talkers and cutters advocating for cutting monster aircraft carriers and battleship-frigates-super pots, but I think common sense will prevail and just-pots will remain the largest of the new strike surface ships.
        1. +18
          15 November 2018 10: 46
          Quote: vladimir1155
          Russia is a land country, this is an important fact.
          Vladimir, from the "indisputable fact", one can only agree that Russia is a country whose inhabitants are not "Ichthyandras" and live on land. Yes, most of the coastline goes to the north, as one tsarist specialist said, Russia in general with its sea facade faces the north, so what? In general, we have a large part of the territory beyond the Arctic Circle, on the permafrost, in the zone of risky farming. If such a territory is considered unsuitable for life, then in cities like Sochi, we will not be considered a great land country. Above Vard, he delicately sarcastically, recalling the largest fleet of icebreakers. Oddly enough, it is in the north that Russia can dominate, not only having the largest fleet of icebreakers, but also Arctic submarines that can be deployed under the protection of polar ice, while providing their cover with our fleet, the ability to cover and control the entire northern sea "facade". Finally, you are somewhat disingenuous, emphasizing the flawedness of "point objects" on the oceans, and the Northern and Pacific fleets, these are the fleets that can and should have a strong and balanced surface grouping capable of solving all tasks at sea, and not only "guarded by the coast ". I am not going to discuss politics here, for me, because the sooner Russia leaves the pole of world capitalism, reviving the second pole, socialism, the better. Otherwise, there will be no independence if our big uncles keep their junk in foreign currency and foreign banks, one way or another, sabotage and sabotage, sabotage, just pressure from someone else's lobby cannot be avoided. This also applies to the fleet.
          1. 0
            15 November 2018 17: 06
            in general, I support, since I, like me, am not the oldest of those present, advocating for submarines, as for the ports on the oceans, I do not consider them to be defective in any case, I just drew attention to the accuracy of those objects on the oceans that need to be protected and listed them
        2. 0
          15 November 2018 12: 43
          from Arkhangelsk to Vladik how many land borders do not tell me ???
        3. +4
          15 November 2018 17: 36
          Russia is a land country, it is an indisputable fact. In general, Fiji and Papua new guinea, the Philippines, England and Japan can be called marine countries.
          Uncle Vova are you stupid?
          1. -1
            19 November 2018 14: 50
            who is not adorable? you? I am against such facts !!!!
        4. -3
          15 November 2018 21: 09
          Quote: vladimir1155
          Now about the concept of the Americans, they generally have a lot of money, but the Russian Federation has little.

          Colleague, the total debt of Russia is 01.10.2018. - 467,115 billion dollars, and the US public debt - 21,294,000 billion dollars! feel
          1. +7
            15 November 2018 21: 17
            Quote: businessv
            Colleague, the total debt of Russia is 01.10.2018. - 467,115 billion dollars, and the US public debt - 21,294,000 billion dollars!

            There is a small problem, as you can easily see. Both there and there - billion dollars. But one side knows how to print them, and the second for some reason not.
            1. -1
              15 November 2018 22: 04
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              There is a small problem, as you can easily see. Both there and there - billion dollars. But one side knows how to print them, and the second for some reason not.

              There is no problem here! And not "both there and there"! Here - billions, and there - trillions! Mattress-like people live in debt, this is an indisputable fact! Hence, the whole world has problems because if the Americans cease to be afraid, then many countries can simultaneously try to get rid of mattress government bonds, and for America it will be a complete collapse!
              1. +8
                16 November 2018 00: 07
                Quote: businessv
                Mattresses live in debt, this is an indisputable fact!

                You see. They live on credit themselves at home.
                Quote: businessv
                can simultaneously try to get rid of mattress government bonds, and for America it will be a complete collapse!

                America won't even scratch oneself. A massive dumping of bonds will lead to the inflation of the Fed's balance sheet. And losses for former bondholders, of course.
                So-so tragedy.
                1. +3
                  16 November 2018 08: 02
                  Absolutely right! If lenders decide to simultaneously get rid of the mattress bonds, then the debtor’s problem will immediately turn into a problem of creditors. And not the American economy will collapse, but rather the economies of the creditor countries. A simple example. Recently, Venezuela demanded that Britain return its gold reserve, which for some reason was stored in the UK. The Naglosaksa showed Venezuela a fig (even without oil). So what? The UK economy suffered at least some damage, at least a reputation? But the Venezuelan economy is on the verge.
                2. +1
                  16 November 2018 12: 50
                  Not really yourself. The whole world is trading in dollars, and while this is the case, they can borrow on their own, because the inflation from these debts is exported outwardly, and the world economy is too big for the inflation of the dollar to seriously shake it.

                  Plus a perennial negative trade balance, when they take more than they give.
                  While this is so, everything will work.
                  But if this system fails, then alas, everything will have to be rearranged.
                3. 0
                  16 November 2018 20: 52
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  You see. They live on credit themselves.

                  If you think so, then no offense would be said, you know little about the economy! What do you mean they take from themselves? The Gosdolg mattress has more than 21 trillion dollars, of which government debt is 30%, the rest is creditors ’investments! Today, every American owes 50000. Once again, the United States lives on credit! The only thing that saves them is their currency, in which the majority of settlements in the world are conducted. Learn materiel, colleague! hi
                  1. 0
                    16 November 2018 20: 55
                    Quote: businessv
                    Learn materiel, colleague!

                    So take an interest in the structure of the US public debt by holders, this is not a secret.
          2. +2
            15 November 2018 23: 28
            The new US defense budget, US President Donald Trump signed on Monday the country's defense budget for fiscal year 2019 in the amount of about $ 716 billion, which is 3% (20 billion) more than in the 2018 budget. ........ Russia's military budget in 2018 will be $ 46 billion - Tape ... for defense, the money will go to the secret part of the budget .... and the United States should its oligarch Alexander Rothschild and he will not demand to give, for it will print as much as it wants through the Fed
            1. 0
              16 November 2018 21: 06
              Quote: vladimir1155
              owe the US to its oligarch Alexander Rothschild and he will not demand to give, because he will print as much as he wants through the Fed

              Simplify everything, colleague! He will be able to print, but only at the request of the government! Cash mattresses are used mainly for the production of color revolutions, then instead of paper with images of their presidents, the United States receives real resources from the countries where they took this paper, receiving debt documents in return, access to the resources of debtor countries and markets for these countries. That is why there is a constant reproduction by America of instability in the world, armed conflicts, etc. mess. They need this to support their currency and their mattress-like welfare. hi
          3. 0
            16 November 2018 11: 50
            You have at least three orders of magnitude error.
    3. -3
      15 November 2018 12: 41
      did you see a map of the country? a land country ...
      1. +9
        15 November 2018 12: 44
        With the longest coastline in the world
        1. +4
          15 November 2018 15: 03
          A good article, the right questions are posed, although the answers can and will be the subject of discussion (well, where without it hi ) Still, the discrepancy in naval artillery would not hurt to remember - at the same time 57, 76, 100, 130 mm belay (this is not considering our 30 mm ...).
          I do not agree with the historical excursion, and we defended India and the Arabs, and "The situation for the Americans was depressing. Their dominance in the oceans was coming to an end." fellow . And from Godzilla angry we also saved the world - it doesn’t go to land, worthless am !
          Plus article!
          hi
          1. +3
            15 November 2018 19: 09
            Well, the confrontations in the Indian Ocean and the SPM are historical facts, about the Marines in 1973, by the way, the Americans say, not our historians.
            1. +2
              15 November 2018 23: 01
              Hmm, I came across descriptions of these stories in the Indian Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea from our side, which describe this story exactly like this (I was critical, since it was in the style of "in connection with ... ships sent ... made contact .. . lost contact ... anti-ship missiles and submarines had ... were in readiness for use .... thwarted the intervention "- I quote from memory). American sources about these stories did not come across, can I link? And there were definitely no stories "the order received by the American ... fleet to strike on ... was not carried out due to the presence of the USSR ships near or the battle with the USSR ships." They did not interfere either in Libya, Vietnam or Lebanon (and ours do not interfere in Syria now). And for sure there were no stories about the orders given "will bomb India or Arabs - attack" (now there seem to be stories about "attack carriers in the event of an attack on Syria" angry but something about the attacks is not heard).
              No one was going to start World 3 because of Damascus or Kashmir.
              IMHO: Did the US Navy influence the decision-making on the use of force against third countries by the US Navy - apparently yes.
              If a decision had been made to get involved in the Indo-Pakistani war on the side of Pakistan, it would have been enforced, only there have never been such decisions (and why is this US war and what should be the result? Local conflict, no one from Delhi (India as a whole belay ) or didn’t plan to capture Islamabad). The same thing about the war on the side of Israel (here, in case of defeat from the Arab troops, intervention would be possible, but to support the capture of Cairo or Damascus? At the same time or in turn? fellow Before the battle with our marines in 1973 or after?). The status quo, with minor changes, was fine with everyone.
              "... and being treated like this infuriated the American establishment." - Yeah, and "caviar doesn't go down your throat, and cognac doesn't pour into your mouth" - there was a problem - "Russians swim nearby, they can interfere", a program was made for it, budgets were knocked out and it was solved. In general, you are writing about this. The establishment is enraged by the reconnaissance aircraft overflights of the Capitol and the White House (someone will explain the meaning of this operation to me request ) And the establishment (98% percent) of the race begins to approve new sanctions for us and invent new things.
              hi
              By the way, the history of both EM Zumwalt and LCS is best described by the words "maddened by fat". Having reached the "multipower standard" and not intending to concede it, they decided to order the "Starship Enterprise" just to sail! wassat
              1. 0
                16 November 2018 12: 42
                American sources about these stories did not come across, you can link?


                I hope you are not banned in Google and can see all the links on the issue:
                https://www.google.ru/search?newwindow=1&rlz=1C1AVNC_enRU609RU614&ei=7o_uW-6VJ8OzswHZyJ-YBg&q=Soviet-US+naval+standoff+1971&oq=Soviet-US+naval+standoff+1971&gs_l=psy-ab.3...18640.18640.0.19139.1.1.0.0.0.0.88.88.1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.2eGTdQ5UR4Q

                But on 1973:
                https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/zhukov/files/2004_GoldsteinZhukov_NWCR.pdf

                Right book you threw from Harvard.
                About the marines - from there, by the way.
                1. 0
                  16 November 2018 19: 07
                  Thank you, read!
                2. 0
                  16 November 2018 23: 53
                  Interesting links, thanks! hi
                  By 1971 - in general, the USSR fleet did not bother anyone in the United States, with the exception of modern commentators (Bharat Rakshak, Inder Malhotra) and V. Kruglyakov:
                  https://youtu.be/Er2E_PpVUYw
                  https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/14724/did-the-us-and-soviet-navies-really-come-close-to-blows-in-the-indian-ocean-in-1
                  "According to a study by the Center for Naval Analysis, the events the Soviet Admiral described did not happen during the war. Because of the long-distances, the American task force did not arrive on station in the Indian Ocean until after foreign nationals had left and just one day before the Pakistanis surrendered. Adm. Kruglyakov's task group, however, arrived three days after Enterprise and was not in position to block the task force from entering the Bay of Bengal if it wanted to. The British fleet, by that point, had already left the scene. Some of the Soviet warships did seek out the Enterprise, according to the CNA study. Otherwise, all American sources I've read say nothing really about any Soviet naval threat.
                  So is Admiral Kruglyakov speaking the truth? Was there nearly a major naval confrontation as there almost was when the Soviets deployed four victor class attack submarines in response to the mining of Haiphong Harbor? Or is this just a legend carried on for propaganda purposes? "
                  The most interesting document is here:
                  https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/e7/48542.htm
                  Quote:
                  "Kissinger: And that's, in effect, all. And a promise that the Indians would eventually withdraw too. But that's going to happen anyway. I mean, to participate in that is a nice humanitarian effort, but it does not solve the overwhelming problem of the war in the west.
                  Nixon: Does State understand that?
                  Kissinger: No. Well they understand it now, believe me.
                  Nixon: Yeah. See the point is, our desire is to save West Pakistan. That's all.
                  Kissinger: That's right. That is exactly right.
                  Nixon: All right. Fine What is State up to now? We're still getting, you're still getting those — keep those carriers moving now.
                  Kissinger: The carriers — everything is moving. Four Jordanian planes have already moved to Pakistan, 22 more are coming. We're talking to the Saudis, the Turks we've now found are willing to give five. So we're going to keep that moving until there's a settlement. "
                  By 1973, a great book, I read it for now!
                  hi
                  1. 0
                    17 November 2018 10: 04
                    On 1971, pull it out, I don't want to do anything, but I saw interesting quotes from there, especially valuable because everything is written in 1973, hot on the heels.

                    https://iiss.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00396337308441437?needAccess=true#.W-_aDimS1c0
            2. 0
              27 November 2018 03: 17
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Well, the confrontations in the Indian Ocean and the SPM are historical facts, about the Marines in 1973, by the way, the Americans say, not our historians.

              To 1973: "A Russian Perspective on the 1973 Naval Standoff in the
              Mediterranean "turned out to be an extremely interesting article thanks!
              hi
              The authors of GOLDSTEIN & ZHUKOV do not speak very favorably about the amphibious forces of the fleet:
              "As Israeli armored units crossed the Suez Canal on 17 October, preliminary
              plans for a limited “demonstration” landing of Soviet naval infantry on the west
              bank of the canal were drafted. 153 Such an operation would not have been entirely
              unprecedented — Captain First Rank VI Popov recalls that such a landing
              had occurred in January 1968, in response to an Israeli attempt to secure the entrance
              to the Suez Canal. 154
              A landing operation now would have been the same kind of a muscle-flexing
              show of force as had occurred in the War of Attrition, but Moscow was probably
              not contemplating direct intervention in the Yom Kippur War at this particular
              point. Captain First Rank Vladimir Zaborskii, writing in 1999, notes that in
              1973 logistics stood in the way of an amphibious landing. The bulk of the naval
              infantry force was still in Sevastopol preparing for deployment into the Mediterranean.
              One large and six medium landing ships were already in the region, but
              they were all being used for equipment transport. 155 Subsequently, the commander
              in chief of the Soviet Navy, Admiral Sergei Gorshkov, ordered the already
              deployed landing to ships used for troop transport and a landing force
              to be assembled of “volunteers” from the crews of all combatant and auxiliary
              ships. According to Semenov, there was no shortage of volunteers; some thousand
              men signed up to fight Israeli forces on the ground. 156 However, this resort
              it was a sign
              ."
              But about the Airborne Forces, VTA and about the warning that the USSR is ready to defend Egypt, GOLDSTEIN & ZHUKOV responded on the contrary, approvingly:
              "Even more ominously, Soviet airborne troops were placed on alert — seven divisions
              consisting of fifty thousand frontline troops and a hundred thousand
              support troops, a force outnumbering the US Marine contingent in the Mediterranean.
              ...
              The Soviet airlift to the
              Middle East had ceased, suggesting that the military transports (notably the
              An-22, the largest Soviet transport plane) were being relieved to ferry the airborne
              troops. "
              "Informed by Washington of the Soviets' intentions and aggressively prodded
              by the Americans to halt their military operations, Israel now did so
              .180 Plans for a
              Soviet landing on the Suez Canal were called off, reportedly at the last minute. 181
              During the afternoon of October 25, the USSR agreed to a plan to man the
              cease-fire lines with a UN peacekeeping force that excluded both superpowers. "
              1. 0
                27 November 2018 09: 52
                However, this resort
                it was a sign


                Either you do not know what kind of "volunteers" they were. The same as the Chinese in Korea.
        2. 0
          4 December 2018 14: 19
          So what? let's dig trenches then, from missiles and aircraft
  4. The comment was deleted.
  5. +3
    15 November 2018 06: 28
    For comparison: the ships of the Russian Navy were written off long before the exhaustion of their resources and in conditions when there were no special grounds for decommissioning. First of all, we are talking about ships whose repair has been delayed and which have “died” under the conditions of this repair. This, for example, the destroyers of the project 956.

    "Sarychi", although good in combat equipment ships (by old standards), but painfully fragile, with a problematic power plant.
    1. +14
      15 November 2018 08: 15
      the boilers on the 956 project are normal ... 100 motor resources, 000 times more than turbines ... BUT ... the boiler tubes did not last longer than 2-5000 hours, due to the low quality of alloy steel, they simply rusted ... and this under the condition of normal water treatment, which was not born on our ships ... the qualification of l / s was more than covered by the number of spare parts, which ended back in the days of perestroika ...
      why did they install boilers on the newest destroyers ??? ... everything is simple ... there is a queue of 61,1134B, 1124,1135 and a little later 1155 projects for the gas turbine plant; the construction of 56, 58, 1134, 1134A, 1123 projects was completed ... and Gorshkov and Butoma decided to put boilers on 956 ... cheap and cheerful ...
      which once again emphasizes the relevance of this article ... Americans could not afford such insanity from the word "absolutely" ...
      1. -10
        15 November 2018 08: 39
        And what is insanity? What is used what is available?
        1. +11
          15 November 2018 11: 50
          didn’t you read the article or didn’t get it? ...
          insanity is that in the design and construction of 956 projects, priority was given to the interests of industry, and not to the needs of the fleet ...
          the result is sad ... the ships with the KTU did not live long, unlike their counterparts with the GTU ...
          1. -7
            15 November 2018 13: 48
            The need of the navy and army of any country in general can be described as: “give us the Death Star.” This is an objective reality, as well as an objective reality, that even if the industry gives it, they will still not be enough.
      2. +6
        15 November 2018 11: 59
        The Americans sculpted steam power plants for all UDCs up to the last Wasp. On the other hand, having rested, the problem with pipes could be solved.

        On the whole, "Sarych" is a problem ship, they could be replaced with something and written off / put on storage.
        But we just want to write them off, without replacement.
  6. +10
    15 November 2018 06: 30
    and repeated raids of the US Navy special forces on Chukotka, the Kuril Islands, Kamchatka and in Primorye (but you did not know, right?)


    And here the author will tell you more about this and please indicate the sources of information ... something that is hard to believe. hi
    And in order to build a bunch of different ships, you must first decide on what tasks to build them ...
    why do we need, for example, full-fledged aircraft carriers ... if, for example, competing with the Americans is one thing ... if you indicate your presence in the regions of the world it is different ... this weapon should justify itself from all points of view and not just for the Pontus ... otherwise it is also a waste of budget money.
    1. +8
      15 November 2018 07: 31
      Hi Aleksey. It is the states that need aircraft carriers, with their fucking policies, to poke their nose everywhere and start wars. My opinion, we need one and that's enough, it seems like the world is everywhere, came calmly to the Mediterranean Sea, helped a lot and left. And what a serious start - they are all the first to drown. I am for nuclear submarines and diesels, and babies. Take the Second World War - how many single submarines sank the ships, and now both above and under water everything is many times better, but the principle of sinking remains the same. And a large number of different RTOs with a good stock and variety of missiles.
      1. +2
        15 November 2018 07: 42
        Greetings Vladimir! hi
        Unfortunately, aircraft carriers with the development of hypersonic weapons become vulnerable by definition ... and just getting one relatively cheap hyper-rocket is enough to turn an aircraft carrier into a useless pile of metal trash.
        So I think that in a clash in a war of superpowers, aircraft carriers have no future ... it is too expensive to lose billions of dollars due to one penny missile.
        1. +2
          15 November 2018 07: 49
          Alexei - I completely agree - money is wasted, and let them spend it.
        2. +4
          15 November 2018 08: 25
          you are not a case relative to Khrushchev ???? ... and at your age you should not get carried away with cartoons ... the boundaries between reality and wet dreams are completely torn ...
          1. -1
            15 November 2018 08: 32
            you are not a case relative to Khrushchev ???? ... and at your age you should not get carried away with cartoons ... the boundaries between reality and wet dreams are completely torn ...

            Not ... not even close relative smile ... I don’t like cartoons ...
            I live in real life where I need to get my daily bread daily ... will there be more questions? ...
            Are you the case not from the morals police? ... or maybe from Roskomnadzor ... or maybe from the department of the office watching the comments of forum users? ...
            so many questions ... already brains are smoking smile .
            Now tell me, what do you suppose how the captain of an aircraft carrier will do when the MIG-31 attack with your dagger at an inaccessible distance for the AUG defense means will come onto your ship?
            1. +4
              15 November 2018 17: 24
              First make the aircraft carrier depict a fixed target so that the dagger can get into it.
              1. -2
                15 November 2018 17: 27
                Well, this is not a small boat ... in order for such a colossus to make a turn or a U-turn, how long does it take?
                And when the score goes by several tens of seconds from the moment the rocket is launched ... then the delay in death is like ... no an aircraft carrier, this is not a scooter that can be instantly deployed in the right direction.
                1. +8
                  15 November 2018 19: 12
                  In 1982, during a raid by the Americans to Kamchatka, the MRA air division, which flew out to "designate a blow" on their AUS, stupidly did not find it - and there were two aircraft carriers alone, and a bunch of ships.
                  A day later, the Kuriles air defense posts reported that they were training air strikes of deck aircraft of the USA.

                  Missiles are useless without target designation, and in places such as the Persian Gulf, the Sea of ​​Marmara, certain areas of the Mediterranean, it is not allowed because everything is crammed with ships.

                  Americans generally have a rule for the Persian Gulf to attack targets only after visual identification.

                  And you want to bullet with 2000 km hypersonic missile. I note, not yet the fact that there actually is a GOS.
                  1. 0
                    16 November 2018 16: 57
                    But is one missile hit enough to sink an aircraft carrier? Information on the effectiveness of the use of cruise missiles (like torpedoes) against modern large aircraft carriers is practically absent. Smaller ships withstood their hits, as did civilian tankers, similar in size to the superheavy American aircraft carrier Gerald R. Ford
                2. +3
                  15 November 2018 19: 49
                  The author has already answered you, but I repeat. Firstly, in order not to destroy, but to disable, there must be a massive salvo to overcome the air defense of the airborne forces. Secondly, there are target designation, according to the satellite constellation there are more questions than answers, with airplanes also sad. well, and finding them an Aus is also not an easy task. When moving in conditions close to combat in the air, the plane hangs constantly, the plane drills and the flight deck link, so before you find the Aus, you first have to find yourself. hi
                  1. -1
                    16 November 2018 12: 36
                    By the way, this is another question - is it necessary in modern conditions to "break through" the ABM AUS.
                    Count the Burkees and Tiki. With Tomahawks, they are much more dangerous than AB for the coast.

                    And exposed "under attack" at the same time wink
        3. +4
          15 November 2018 11: 59
          Super-weapons do not exist and can not be invented, remember it forever.
          1. 0
            15 November 2018 17: 40
            Superweapons do not exist and cannot be invented, remember this forever
            Yes, OK, but thermonuclear weapons, we are still alive only thanks to him, and yes we were catching up!
            1. +5
              15 November 2018 19: 13
              Well, in principle, a nuclear war can be waged, and, under a number of conditions, for a long time, for weeks.
              And the enemy may well not give up on this and also fight, spitting blood.
    2. +1
      15 November 2018 21: 13
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      And in order to build a bunch of different ships, you must first decide on what tasks to build them ...

      Colleague, so the author wrote about this!
  7. +13
    15 November 2018 07: 20
    Quote: ROSS 42
    When it is required to build a fleet, they do just that, training personnel, modernizing the production base, and do not wave palm branches in front of the world.

    Quote: vladimirZ
    Who will build the Russian Navy?

    Quote: Vard
    All criticism of our naval program comes down to the need to build aircraft carriers ...

    Quote: The same LYOKHA
    And in order to build a bunch of different ships, you must first decide on what tasks to build them ...
    why do we need, for example, full-fledged aircraft carriers.

    The author seems to clearly present the main idea and painted everything in an accessible manner, but he still doesn’t reach people.
    It is necessary to build a lot, without changing the project, at a fixed price, as unified as possible, without getting carried away by a superweapon, for certain specific purposes. Have a cheap workhorse that you can build in bulk.
    By the way, the Chinese are building a fleet on such principles, one type of corvette, one type of frigate, one type of destroyer.
  8. +5
    15 November 2018 07: 21
    Yes, how much can you compare with America, there are no other fleets in the world?
    It is necessary to proceed from realities. In fact, Russia's budget is on par with countries such as Belgium, Sweden, Mexico, and in comparison with these countries, the domestic Navy is very good, and it can cope with our defense doctrine.
    ...
    Almost all the "experience" that the author proposes to adopt from the Americans consists of elementary truths that are understandable to any child, such as:
    -Good ship is better than bad
    -More ships, it is better than fewer ships
    -Modernize and repair is more profitable than changing new ones ahead of time
    - Large series and streaming production reduces production costs by several times
    -Stealing is bad
    Etc. etc.
    1. +10
      15 November 2018 07: 59
      Yeah, the child understands something, but our leaders are not aware of the campaign, otherwise why are they doing everything exactly the opposite?
      1. +7
        15 November 2018 08: 09
        For managers, the main goal is to stay in power, and they cope with this task perfectly, the rest is secondary.
        1. +1
          15 November 2018 10: 51
          Quote: Corn
          For managers, the main goal is to stay in power,

          The problem is to expand among KPI leaders, by which they are evaluated by the things that they are set to lead. This is the case in companies, but not so in the Government.
          The company, which in the leadership begins to engage in populism and politics, very quickly becomes bankrupt.
    2. 0
      15 November 2018 09: 15
      Quote: Corn
      Almost all the "experience" that the author proposes to adopt from the Americans consists of elementary truths,

      Only for some reason, these truths can never be realized.
      Quote: Corn
      It is necessary to proceed from realities. In fact, Russia's budget is on par with countries such as Belgium, Sweden, Mexico, and in comparison with these countries, the domestic Navy is very good, and it can cope with our defense doctrine.

      Unfortunately, (and perhaps fortunately), the defensive doctrine of Russia is very different from the doctrines of these countries. For example, no one particularly encroaches on the sovereignty of Mexico or Belgium, simply because they have it as if purely nominal.
    3. +4
      15 November 2018 12: 01
      Alas, the nature of the threats and the possible tasks that may arise in front of the Navy and the country are much more extensive than those of Mexico. And in the current state we are not ready to solve them.
      1. -6
        15 November 2018 12: 18
        Mexico has neither nuclear weapons nor means of delivery, while Russia has both in abundance. No one in the mind and health of a nuclear power, which is capable of turning everything taken together by NATO into a Martian landscape, is serious, and for minor regional conflicts the current fleet is quite enough. Personally, I hope that in the foreseeable future we will solve the problem with power plants, solve the problem with the "redoubt", solve the breakdowns with a modular layout and launch a large series of N-dozen one-color frigates of various modifications. Until then, it will do.
        1. +2
          15 November 2018 12: 46
          Alas, the fleet is just not enough.
          1. +3
            15 November 2018 16: 18
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Alas, the fleet is just not enough.

            I agree the fleet is not enough .. BUT !! What is more effective than a modern destroyer or two dozen SU-57?
            rs: When was the last time the fleet fought fully with all the calculations? And where?
            1. +4
              15 November 2018 19: 26
              The destroyer and the aircraft have different tasks. For example, fighters cannot wait for a month on shore for an attack / defense mission.
              It's like chalk to compare cheese.
              1. -1
                15 November 2018 19: 58
                Why watch on the enemy’s coast for a month? For what purpose? Either the adversary has done something against us, or is plotting something, in these cases two options, to distribute everything and everything preventively (su-57 or other VKS means allow this), or react to what happened (which, again, VKS means allow much more faster) .. the question is why do you need an expensive fleet ??
                1. +5
                  15 November 2018 21: 09
                  For the last time, the USA didn’t play games with chemical attacks in Syria. Why? Because there was a combat-ready grouping of the Navy. But before that, when there were two dead frigates, they worked their way through Syria.
                  Please return to reality. Yet recently it was this year. Are the events already disappeared from memory?
        2. 0
          15 November 2018 17: 32
          Here's another person who wants to go to paradise. The rest will die. What would be turned into a lunar landscape, at first it would be nice to remove the rocket ships from their bases, because it is on them that part of our nuclear potential is not sour. And this is simply impossible without a competent surface component of the fleet. of course try "from the wall" to launch, although then the home base will disappear before the last missile leaves the mine.
        3. +3
          15 November 2018 18: 01
          Mexico has neither nuclear weapons nor the means of surrender, and Russia has both in abundance. Nobody in their mind and health can turn into a nuclear power, which is capable of turning all of NATO into a Martian landscape, seriously, and the current fleet is enough for minor regional conflicts.
          Have you ever wondered why opponents speak so boldly with Russia? It’s as if we don’t have a triad! Duck Internet to help you, in the sense where the children of Putin, Lavrov, etc. live, study and work! It is because of this that the partners are greyhound!
  9. +3
    15 November 2018 08: 24
    In many ways, I agree with the author, except for one. I believe that during the construction of new ships to contribute at least 30% of innovations to projects. I will explain that when developing a series that does not contain anything new, we are not developing, for development it is necessary to include the new one both at the design stage and in the subsequent modernization. Another thing is that to make more than a third of the innovations. this is a great chance to have a lot of problems. As an example: you can lay a frigate with already used weapons and a new radar or air defense system, and in the process of modernization improve the ship’s PLO, but not everything at once, like on new frigates.
    1. +7
      15 November 2018 12: 02
      30% is an absolutely normal level of technical risk. 60 is very high, I dealt with such systems, they never normally worked.
      Our fleet likes to sculpt 70-80.
      1. 0
        15 November 2018 12: 14
        This is understandable why "loves", but this love is not from a good life. As they say, while there is an opportunity, to build something, to bring in everything new to the maximum. After all, they may not give money at all.
        1. 0
          15 November 2018 12: 46
          Well, that's wrong.
  10. +3
    15 November 2018 08: 25
    The author is distinguished by a very strange manner of writing articles.

    The first half of the text is trash, fumes, altistoria.

    The second half of the text, when it comes to the glands, is a relatively realistic overview of the situation.

    Not the first time he has this.
    1. +3
      15 November 2018 12: 03
      Let's take an example of thrash, and I’m throwing in sources from you, and American ones.
      In addition to the raids of SEALs, only traces were found from them, all sorts of indirect signs, no one was caught, but, as they say, "such coincidences do not happen."
      1. +3
        15 November 2018 13: 15
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Let's take an example of thrash, and I’m throwing in sources from you, and American ones.

        US entry into the Vietnam War on the side of China, if you do not mind. Separately on the decisive role of the Navy of the USSR in deciding on this issue.
        1. 0
          15 November 2018 14: 23
          There is no such article.
          1. +1
            15 November 2018 20: 12
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            There is no such article.

            In 1979, when China, which was then friendly to the Americans, attacked Vietnam, which was unconditionally hostile to them, the Americans, as part of the idea of ​​"returning to business," sent AUG to Vietnam to support them and put pressure on Hanoi during the battles with the Chinese. But AUG ran into Soviet submarines. And again, nothing happened ...

            Do not read the articles that you post?
            1. +1
              15 November 2018 22: 05
              I did not write that they wanted to fight for China. It was an element of pressure, as was the case with India in 1971.

              In early 1979, AUG moved to the South China Sea with AB Constellation. In February 1979, the Pacific Fleet deployed a "screen" of diesel-electric submarines at the entrance to the Gulf of Tonkin. Until March 6, "Connie" maneuvered in the South China Sea, not trying to overcome this veil, on March 6, China announced the withdrawal of troops, and on March XNUMX, "Connie" with an escort turned to the West, to the Indian Ocean.

              On September 26, 1978, the "Connie" sailed west again beginning her 11th deployment. On Dec. 27, the Battle Group was directed to the vicinity of Singapore in response to the internal crisis in Iran and because of vital US interests in the Arabian Gulf area, But on January 14, 2009, there was no need for more information.
              1. 0
                16 November 2018 00: 20
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                I didn’t write that they wanted to fight for China

                For a circus it's too thin.
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                President directed USS Constellation and her escort ships to remain on station in the South China Sea and not enter the Indian Ocean.

                The source, in your opinion, is any text in English?
                Questions were, remind
                1. "The Americans, within the framework of the idea of" getting back into business ", sent AUG to Vietnam, to support them and put pressure on Hanoi during the battles with the Chinese"What is the bold part of this statement based on?
                2. "AUG came across Soviet submarines. And again nothing happened ..." What is the basis for the opinion that AUG did not succeed, and, separately, what is the opinion that the submarines have "failed" to do with this?
                1. 0
                  16 November 2018 12: 34
                  They then just started a crisis in Iran. But the Constellation in fact unfolded and left in the South China Sea.
                  However, he did not reach the point of Yankee Station, and traditionally American AVs deployed against the DRV were there.
                  At the same time, to be on it, Connie had to go through the DEPL line.

                  At the same time, AUG rushed to Ind. and further to the Arabian Peninsula a day after the Chinese announced their withdrawal.

                  Well, add two plus two. The text is taken from the history of this ship, specifically from the USS Constellation deployments.
                  1. +2
                    16 November 2018 13: 47
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Well add up two plus two.

                    That is, these conclusions are purely your creativity?
                    1. 0
                      16 November 2018 20: 43
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      I didn’t write that they wanted to fight for China

                      For a circus it's too thin.
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      President directed USS Constellation and her escort ships to remain on station in the South China Sea and not enter the Indian Ocean.

                      The source, in your opinion, is any text in English?
                      Questions were, remind
                      1. "The Americans, within the framework of the idea of" getting back into business ", sent AUG to Vietnam, to support them and put pressure on Hanoi during the battles with the Chinese"What is the bold part of this statement based on?
                      2. "AUG came across Soviet submarines. And again nothing happened ..." What is the basis for the opinion that AUG did not succeed, and, separately, what is the opinion that the submarines have "failed" to do with this?

                      In defense of the author: -During the Vietnam-China War, the American AUG was indeed present in the South China Sea, putting pressure on the nerves of the Vietnamese leadership. That this is the pressure is quite understandable, because only in 1975 the American-Vietnam War ended; -submarines, including those from the 6th Submarine Squadron stationed in Vladivostok, were indeed on duty in the South China Sea, tracking the Americans, and entered the Gulf of Tonkin, even my "Lenok" was there, of course with humanitarian mission.


                      Thanks to the author for the article! Topical issues are raised and competently disclosed. It is only a pity that they will be solved very, very long. Well, yes such a time.
                      1. 0
                        16 November 2018 20: 52
                        Quote: watermark
                        for only in the 1975 year did the US-Vietnam war end;

                        It is from this fact that the likelihood of a US attack on someone in Vietnam was extremely low. The fact that the Americans love to send somewhere AUG purely for fun, and not to bomb - is yes.

                        Quote: watermark
                        submarines ... really were on duty at that time and in the South China Sea tracking Americans

                        The author submits this situation so that the submarines drove the AUG from Vietnam. At least I read his text like that.
                      2. 0
                        16 November 2018 23: 14
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Quote: watermark
                        for only in the 1975 year did the US-Vietnam war end;

                        It is from this fact that the likelihood of a US attack on someone in Vietnam was extremely low. The fact that the Americans love to send somewhere AUG purely for fun, and not to bomb - is yes.

                        Quote: watermark
                        submarines ... really were on duty at that time and in the South China Sea tracking Americans

                        The author submits this situation so that the submarines drove the AUG from Vietnam. At least I read his text like that.

                        Well, you're just like Moliere's mother-in-law. Maybe remember - "Tartuffe" - is called. At the same time, if you are such a "refined intellectual" then I give you a situation: you are standing at a bus stop. Someone who surpasses you in build and agility comes up to you and begins to make a chop out of you. Fortunately for you, an even more agile passer-by appears from around the corner, drives your opponent away from you, raises you to your feet, leans you against a post, gives you a napkin with the words "wipe yourself" and leaves. As soon as you have wiped yourself off, suddenly out of the darkness your offender appears and resolutely heads towards you. - Based on your logic, you will apparently decide that he returned to help you and apologize?
                        So, the submarines of the Navy of the USSR - this is the more agile passerby who was again called for help.
                      3. +1
                        17 November 2018 13: 05
                        Hmm, hard.
                        1. If A happened, then B, then B, this does not mean that A is the cause of B or C.
                        2.
                        Quote: watermark
                        I bring you a situation

                        The metaphor is not true.
                        Two young talents, standing on the adjacent platforms of the stairs, spat on each other's faces. Naturally, we got to the main staircase (Vietnam), but we do not appreciate the work of cleaners, and the Soviet side was recognized as the winner by points. Thanks to two reasons. Firstly, she stood on the platform that is higher. Secondly, the American side suddenly remembered my father’s belt (voters' votes), and urgently ran home to wash, and the Soviet side - fatherless.
                        On the other hand, less than 5 years later, the Soviet side arranged a rematch with a change of goal (stood on the lower platform). The result is a little predictable.
                        Quote: watermark
                        So, the submarines of the Navy of the USSR - this is the more agile passerby who was again called for help.

                        Not at all. The submarines of the USSR Navy, in the most flattering case for them, played a rather unimaginable role as a human shield, similar to the current raids of frigates and Varshavyanka to Syria. On the one hand, there is no doubt that in the event of a conflict with partners, the chances of these ships to do at least something before death is zero. On the other hand, the destruction of the NK and submarines of the Russian Navy is a political decision that partners must take into account further developments. The price of this solution may be too high in relation to the tasks that partners set for themselves in this conflict.

                        As for the help of the Soviet side, given the changing position of China, it is quite difficult to render it.

                        In any case, you should distinguish between data that can be considered objective, and your own (or someone else's) assumptions.
    2. 0
      15 November 2018 23: 08

      "The author has a very strange way of writing articles.
      The first half of the text is trash, fumes, altistoria.
      The second half of the text, when it comes to hardware, is a relatively realistic overview of the situation. "
      Oh, by the way, as if 2 different people are writing! Although the whole article is good.
  11. +4
    15 November 2018 08: 27
    An undoubted plus article !!! In general, that the RIF fleet that the USSR fleet that the current fleet of the Russian Federation suffers from the same disease, it is not shoved into the shove !!! Eternal improvements at the construction stage led and lead to the fact that the ships become morally obsolete even on the slipways. There is not a single ship in the series that would have minimally minimized, and they were built in large series only in the USSR and even with excesses
  12. -3
    15 November 2018 08: 29
    What Russia does not need now, neither aircraft carriers, nor super torpedoes? So who is arguing, except for 90%, who argue on the principle that the Yankees have, so we need.

    A cheap and efficient ship? Well design. Cheap is rarely effective, and "it's not a pity to lose" - this has not been applied to the fleet since WWII, when battleships stood and trembled in bases. The United States does not count there, they had stupid resources at times more than any other.
    1. +6
      15 November 2018 12: 11
      In fact, it is impossible to ensure the deployment of submarines without an aircraft carrier air defense / PLO (at least a light one), you need at least a couple of them, working with the support of coastal aviation, one in the southern part of the Barents Sea, the second in the area of ​​the stall to the east of Avacha Bay, together with coast-based aviation over the first and second Kuril passages and NK.

      This is all long overdue. So to the word.

      Consumable ship - frigate with VI of about 4500 tons, with only standard components, with serial RTV, REV, GAK, fully diesel power plant based on 3xDDA-12000, with a steel superstructure and a hangar for 1-2 (better than two) helicopters, 1st UVP and 2x4 launchers "Uranus".

      And it is quite realistic to do.
      1. -5
        15 November 2018 13: 57
        Submarines can shoot from the pier.

        It's not a pity to lose a 4.5k ton frigate, it's a pity to lose a war when the enemy builds 7k ton destroyers. Either your frigates will simply be drowned by aviation, since you have not laid down any air defense, which means that missile cruisers like Atlantis with a capacity of 10-12k tons are still needed (which I see as a meaningful limit for surface warships in modern conditions). In addition, the mass fraction of fuel, protection and generally useful nishtyaks increases with an increase in the ship's displacement. If our limit is the Black Sea and no further than Cyprus, then maybe there will be enough autonomy, but ships of the 2nd rank will have a hard time in the ocean for months, and they will have to keep additional supply vessels with them.
        1. +5
          15 November 2018 14: 24
          The enemy already has dozens of 8-9 CT destroyers. As for shooting from the pier, it is only if we hit first. In general, this is absolute nonsense.
          1. -2
            15 November 2018 14: 28
            Well, influence the submarine in the White Sea.

            Who is our opponent?
            1. +2
              15 November 2018 14: 58
              In the last article there is about the impact on the submarine at sea, the truth is in the Barents Sea.
              Gone are the days when some ships or submarines could operate autonomously. Against the United States, NATO and Japan - for sure.
              1. -1
                15 November 2018 16: 32
                The White Sea is actually an inland lake. How should an anti-submarine aircraft penetrate?

                If our enemy is the United States, or even Japan, then it will not work out to fight against him exclusively with frigates, I'm not talking about everyone to fence, but about the real forces that the enemy can deploy in a specific theater of operations. With the same success, it would be possible to recommend the ground forces to fight with formations like American "striker" brigades, uniform and inexpensive weapons, without tanks and air defense. Yes, not even with wheeled vehicles, but on a tank of 40 tons to put a 100-105 mm gun, to throw DZ over the armor. From barmaley with RPG-7 will protect and cheap. A howitzer on the same chassis. But a serious army will crush them and will not notice. How the same Amanita Gaddafi was crushed simply by gathering a couple of squadrons of aircraft throughout Europe.
                1. +4
                  15 November 2018 19: 32
                  The White Sea is actually an inland lake. How should an anti-submarine aircraft penetrate?


                  This is an illusion. Pierce, and will penetrate, especially with a fighter escort.
                  1. 0
                    16 November 2018 09: 26
                    We come to what I voiced earlier, aviation dominates, all the rest are needed only to clean up after it.
          2. +1
            15 November 2018 16: 43
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            The enemy already has dozens of 8-9 CT destroyers. As for shooting from the pier, it is only if we hit first. In general, this is absolute nonsense.

            C'mon, the enemy thrashing at us with cruise missiles; it’s not known what kind of filling it drowns our ships with, it knocks down all of our aircraft, interferes and destroys satellites, but we sit with our mouths open and thinks what is being done and what would it be? Yeah ... Bullshit question, drowned the remnants of the fleet, with strategic nuclear submarines, carried out the space component about the missile attack, and we all think about partners being buzzing .. You don’t hold us for fools .. What will happen in this case? Correctly ! OSHA ... The vitrified states of America .. And for all other options, a tenth of what you would like is enough, there is no point in all these brontosaurs from the fleet .. they really can’t be applied .. I recall the famous bulk in the Black Sea, when our the ship was pushed by an American, you must admit that somehow it’s wild having the whole arsenal of forces and means (very perfect and effective) to go to a ram showing the adversary his place .. But it’s very simple, use our weapons and hello there will be no WWII world war !! !
            So today it’s all the same, there won’t be any winners with the necessary Faberge firmness of leadership. Have you drowned a couple of our ships? Good! We glazed Norfolk and San Diego ... There are opportunities for this .. And why should our partners risk VERY expensive objects in their territory for the sake of drowning some of our troughs? Of course, if he calculates that our leadership will not take such steps, then there is no sense at all in the navy, army, and so on .. And so what are we doing symmetrical actions when there are asymmetric ones ... Means and technologies allow us all this ...
            1. +4
              15 November 2018 19: 34
              You have very strange ideas about what can happen and how.
              1. -1
                15 November 2018 20: 00
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                You have very strange ideas about what can happen and how.

                But all the same, why in the days of the USSR our ship did not use the existing arsenal, but stupidly went to the ram of the ship with unclear prospects in view of half the displacement?
                1. +2
                  15 November 2018 20: 39
                  Because he was given such an order. The very people who must give orders. Including the use of our entire titanic moschi ....
                  He had to kick the adversary, but did not use weapons. But how, so this is not the case for the nasyalnikov .... And in general, it would be useful to find out how this all happens in general, about the use of arsenals ....
                  1. 0
                    15 November 2018 21: 06
                    Quote: frog
                    Because he was given such an order

                    Voooot! And washed away in all this splendor if certain people are afraid to use it? what's the use of big guns, long missiles and the rest? What they are what not! All this is counterbalanced by a big club, it’s the flag of the state, and the enemy’s understanding that some line cannot be crossed .. if there is no understanding, then all these squadrons are in vain! Empty place! Because they are not worth anything! Therefore, scattering resources on the creation of particularly unnecessary fleet units is criminal .. for it is not advisable .. What they are, what they are not, for the heap no difference ...
                    pc: Citing an example of the actions of our ship, I clearly proved that from it equipment and combat excellence NOTHING depended .. Accordingly, if there is no difference .. for what to pay more?
                    1. +3
                      15 November 2018 21: 20
                      Citing an example, they could find out what was there in real life .... And with what power the anti-submarine was supposed to frighten the cruiser. Not to mention what year it was and what leadership it was then. That's just the manual is different and sometimes changes quickly. And the fleet, air force, air force (underline as necessary) is created for a long time. It breaks it all down fast. Here we have broken education at a time, and we will restore ........
                2. +4
                  15 November 2018 22: 09
                  Therefore, why the Americans did not respond to this ram by anything, although they were convinced that they had the right of transit passage through that zone (the USSR did not recognize it).

                  Nobody wants to reach the war, the consequences can be very bad.
                  1. -1
                    20 November 2018 09: 48
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Nobody wants to reach the war, the consequences can be very bad

                    Voooot! Then what's the point in shooting expensive toys that NO one is going to use? Why then do we need these multi-billion dollar fleets, super duper aviation? Any unarmed bulk carrier or tanker could do the same bulk in the Black Sea in the same way, and in the same way the US cruiser would not use weapons! For there are other means for retaliatory action ..
                    rs: I'm talking about what to invest in a surface fleet of large displacement today is criminal! It makes no sense whether the ship is armed or not, it does not make any difference .. Therefore, much less expensive ships will cope with the tasks of the fleet .. The main emphasis is on the aerospace forces and the land component .. And looking at the actions of the Ministry of Defense, I am convinced that I am right ..
  13. +4
    15 November 2018 08: 46
    Awesome article! The way the states organized their shipbuilding I think is right. I liked the idea of ​​light aircraft carriers and hydrofoil missile boats!
    1. +9
      15 November 2018 10: 59
      Quote: Mister Creed
      I liked the idea of ​​light aircraft carriers and hydrofoil missile boats!

      Yeah ... it’s just these projects that have been cut down. smile
      Because they turned out to be by no means cheap. For example, the RCA of the Pegasus type was originally planned to build 30 units, but after calculating the final cost of the program, the money was only enough for 6.
      And light ABs once again froze at the stage of draft designs - because, again, once again, it turned out that the cost of light ABs required to perform the tasks of one heavy one exceeds the cost of this heavy AB. And most importantly, the smaller the AB size, the shorter its full service life. Because the smaller the size of the AB, the greater the chances that with the next generation of deck vehicles, new vehicles either will not fit on it at all, or they will fit in quantities that are completely insufficient for full-fledged combat service. But the heavy AB, designed for piston "corsairs" and "sky raders", can easily serve for almost half a century and carry "hornets" and "intruders" on its deck before decommissioning.
      1. 0
        15 November 2018 12: 14
        Well, in general, the Sea Control Ship was built in Spain as "Prince of Asturias", and then in a reduced form for Thailand as "Shakri Narubet".
        Their tasks are completely different with heavy AV, Zumvalt himself wrote about it this way:

        It would be your time when it came to the crucifixion.

        Translation: During the war, the positions of the two types of aircraft carriers will be opposite to each other: large and powerful will fight in the most dangerous waters, destroying the enemy outside the range of cruise missiles with their planes, and the ships of maritime control will serve in the mid-ocean zone.
        1. +2
          15 November 2018 12: 26
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Well, in general, the Sea Control Ship was built in Spain as "Prince of Asturias", and then in a reduced form for Thailand as "Shakri Narubet".

          Well, yes - the Yankees abandoned the construction of their SCS and shoved all their achievements on small AB allies in NATO. Hydrofoil RCA also went there - the Italians.
          But originally, they wanted these massive cheap ships for their fleet.

          I'll tell you more - the current littoral lakes were also originally designed according to the concept "massive cheap ship to work in the coastal waters of the enemy, which is not a pity to lose". A sort of gunboat in a new way. And what happened as a result? wink

          By the way, the EMNIP part of the SCS tasks was assigned to the UDC, which, as we wrote, should have been used, including as light aircraft for airborne missile defense and as anti-submarine aircraft for anti-submarine routes of the Atlantic.
          1. 0
            15 November 2018 12: 48
            Well, yes, the UDC can be used that way, quite, even typical air groups have been worked out for such tasks, even on the "Guam". But in general, the Americans proceed from the possibility of mobilizing allies.
        2. +6
          15 November 2018 13: 36
          By the way, we also tried to make our own version of SCS - a cheap mass helicopter carrier PLO based on the hull of a civilian ship.
          Everything ended traditionally: in pursuit of universalization, the ship was hung with an additional task of transporting, disembarking and supporting the assault force, after which, subject to all the requirements of the Navy for survivability, combat stability and armament of the landing ships, the resulting monster climbed only into the corps of project 1143. The project was personally nailed by Gorshkov - because this ship could only be built at Building Stapel 0, instead of Kuznetsov.
  14. +1
    15 November 2018 08: 58
    The message is good, but we must understand that our strategy and doctrine are primarily defensive. Of course, I am not naval, but I believe that, first of all, it is necessary to develop the fleet in terms of protecting its territorial borders. Including the Arctic, where there are much more interests, and strategic advantages.
    1. 0
      15 November 2018 09: 07
      Need, Need. It’s time to jump over-and- and begin to develop the fleet.
  15. -1
    15 November 2018 09: 06
    -Then the Navy deployed in the Mediterranean Sea a grouping of nineteen warships and sixteen submarines, including nuclear ones. -

    No one dares to prohibit the Russian Navy Civil Code from deploying such a force. Moreover, it is reinforced by the Tu-22M3 aviation division at Libyan airfields. Instead of Project 641 boats, there are entire brigades of Kalina Project boats, with a powerful VNEU, with 30 units of missiles. At least three YasenM missile launchers.
  16. -4
    15 November 2018 09: 45
    We need a navy of two main types of ships - coast guard corvettes and attack submarines of the "Husky" type with medium-range ballistic missiles on board.

    So win.
    1. 0
      15 November 2018 10: 55
      Quote: Operator
      We need a navy of two main types of ships

      The core of the Navy should be coastal aviation, not ships. Ships must perform only those functions that aviation cannot.
      1. -3
        15 November 2018 11: 22
        The aerospace forces without naval aviation will be able to cope with aviation tasks.
        1. +8
          15 November 2018 12: 15
          No, there are too many specifics in the preparation of the sea pilot.
          1. -1
            15 November 2018 13: 11
            Now the skills of the Su-34 / Su-35 / Su-50 pilots in delivering remote missiles with external target designation play a secondary role - the aircraft of the latest generations are in fact robotic platforms that just do not take off / land on their own. Therefore, marine specificity for the pilots of these aircraft is not needed.

            And with the functions of the PLO (moreover, in the on-line mode), the bottom sonar sensors located on our shelf are much better able to cope.
            1. +5
              15 November 2018 14: 27
              PLO is not only a detection, but also a defeat of a target, this time.
              The whole world ocean gauges do not fall asleep these two.
              The specifics of naval aviation implies a lot of nuances, from almost constant flights over an unoriented surface, including SMU, performance of tasks over it, actions under conditions of air defense and EW of such a force that the pilot of the VKS can’t find anywhere else; goals and so on
              Other preparation.
              1. -5
                15 November 2018 15: 47
                It is possible to hit nuclear submarines by external target designation from bottom hydroacoustic sensors with counter-torpedoes delivered by the "Caliber" KR as a fired warhead. It is enough to install the sensors on the shelf within the maritime economic zone of the Russian Federation, and then let the enemy's nuclear submarines frolic - all the same, you will not be enough for the entire World Ocean (see the American SOSUS project).

                Now airplanes fly over the sea using GLONASS, when using the "Caliber" cruise missile, a coastal-based aircraft does not enter the air defense and electronic warfare zone of the ship formation, including the coverage area of ​​the AUG carrier-based aviation.
                1. +4
                  15 November 2018 16: 33
                  Quote: Operator
                  It is enough to install sensors on the shelf within the marine economic zone of the Russian Federation

                  Do you know how much it costs in terms of the size of our shelf?
                  1. 0
                    15 November 2018 16: 38
                    Cheaper than building a fleet of PLO ships and coastal facilities for its basing.
                    1. +4
                      15 November 2018 16: 43
                      Quote: Operator
                      Cheaper than building a fleet of PLO ships and coastal facilities for its basing.

                      no, not cheaper, just read the SOSUS service amounts. Another thing is that stationary devices have fundamental advantages. But these advantages are not realizable as part of a constant change of policy, and the amount will not be less.
                    2. 0
                      15 November 2018 22: 10
                      Not cheaper, and technically not easier.
                      1. 0
                        16 November 2018 11: 26
                        We are talking about continuous sonar monitoring of the entire marine economic zone of the Russian Federation on-line. If this problem is solved by the forces of naval and aircraft PLO, then hundreds of ships, hundreds of aircraft, dozens of naval and dozens of air bases will be required. Compared with hydroacoustic PLO, the cost will increase by two orders of magnitude.

                        Plus, ship and aircraft PLO fundamentally can not solve the problem of defense of the longest coast in the world - the Arctic zone of the Russian Federation.
                      2. +1
                        16 November 2018 12: 12
                        I am a little "in the subject" I will say that the deployment of a full-fledged FOSS along a more or less significant length of the coast for the Russian Federation is now impossible for a number of reasons. Only locally, around naval bases.

                        But the enemy can prolazit through such systems, even if the probability is not 100%. So FOSS is one thing, and ships and airplanes are another.

                        In the Arctic, the tasks of the defense of the naval base should be accomplished in a complex manner, and under the ice, submarines. In theory.
                        In practice, they are not solved at all.
                      3. +2
                        16 November 2018 13: 26
                        The deployment of FOSS along the entire Russian coast has only financial constraints, but their value is on 2 about less than the deployment of an analogue - surface / airborne PLO. FOSS can be increased gradually, starting from missile-hazardous directions.

                        Any defense system can be theoretically overcome, but in isolated cases, and we are discussing with you a massive nuclear attack, when dozens of enemy nuclear submarines try to sail directly to the Russian coast to deliver a disarming strike with ballistic missiles aimed at a trajectory of no more than 3000 km from missile bases of the Strategic Missile Forces with a flight time of the order of 10 minutes.

                        We do not care about all other methods of using the submarine by the enemy, since missile launches are guaranteed to be fixed by the three components of the SPRN (ZGRLS, AES OR and NGRLS), the main thing is to prevent a decrease in the flight time of the SLBM to 10 minutes. This is the approximate reaction time of the Strategic Missile Forces to the oncoming launch of ICBMs and the separation of warheads in outer space beyond the boundary of the barrage of enemy missile explosions.
                      4. +1
                        17 November 2018 09: 39
                        Organizationally, we cannot create FOSS now - the topic in the country has been destroyed so much that it is more realistic to invent our own "Poseidon". In addition, FOSS is a half-measure - our Navy knows how to pass it, and the Americans can.

                        Just imagine how it is - to contain a network of three to four thousand self-powered sensors, connected into a network, under common control, and also with external sound sources (low-frequency "illumination"), which are also distributed throughout this area, while everything made in such a design that you can only physically disable it by sinking to the bottom and acting on the sensor with something.

                        It is unrealistically expensive, even in comparison with submarines.

                        Local contours, in the radius of 80-100, you can slowly deploy miles from the bases, but so far something more complicated country will not pull.
                2. +3
                  15 November 2018 19: 36
                  delivered by the KR "Caliber" as a fired warhead


                  In the dimensions of the "Caliber" missile-torpedo, if it flies away, then no further than 100 km. The real limit is now even less.
                  1. +1
                    16 November 2018 11: 18
                    The KR "Caliber" weighs 100-kt special warheads - about 100 kg, the radius of destruction of underwater targets is about 1 km, while the range of the KR is 2600 km, and the special warhead can dive into the required depth on its own.
                    1. 0
                      16 November 2018 12: 13
                      Special warheads cannot always be used, and these missiles are not called "Caliber".
                      1. +2
                        16 November 2018 13: 13
                        And why should we be shy in the war with the GP (the main adversary), especially since there is no civilian population from the word at all under water.

                        Defense Minister Shoigu and the Commander of the Caspian Flotilla spoke about the possibility of increasing the flight range of the KR "Caliber" from 1600 to 2600 km. The main thing in this matter is an increase in the onboard fuel supply due to the use of a 100 kg sptsBCH instead of a conventional 450 kg warhead.
          2. -1
            15 November 2018 16: 35
            Is it necessary to swim? And then for what aircraft?
        2. 0
          15 November 2018 16: 33
          Quote: Operator
          VKS without naval aviation will be able to cope with aviation tasks

          The point is not so much that we have a fleet stretched between Pacific Fleet and Northern Fleet, only submarines and aircraft are capable of maneuvering between fleets. Surface ships can not do this, which severely limits the effectiveness of the country.
          1. 0
            15 November 2018 16: 39
            So they will maneuver the VKS and the nuclear submarines.
      2. +1
        15 November 2018 12: 14
        Amen, brother!
        And there is.
  17. +2
    15 November 2018 10: 08
    It is ironic that the most expensive ship, the most senseless and "merciless", was named after Zumvolt
    1. +3
      15 November 2018 12: 22
      The old man spins in the coffin from this.

      By the way, this ship and the LCS are very good examples of what happens if you backtrack from the rules of Lehmann.
  18. +5
    15 November 2018 10: 15
    To build a Fleet, you need a clear understanding of the tasks for which this fleet should be built, first of all. With us, it all comes down to vague general wording. Hence the shuffling from side to side .. And yes. Less "effective management", with its super-superflugs, with the same super-value, in a single copy. Mass character and unification, with average performance characteristics, is one of the keys to success.
    Useful article
    1. +4
      15 November 2018 12: 16
      What is the most ridiculous, in the spring the Ministry of Industry and Trade (effective managers) cautiously expressed that, say, are we building a lot of projects? And nodded at the Americans.
      Even effective, everything is obvious, but in the "near-fleet" they continue to "cut".
      1. +2
        15 November 2018 16: 05
        I will not say anything new: they will "cut" until the "sawers" and other swindlers receive real long terms and confiscations, regardless of rank and post. This is a priority problem. Without solving it, we will continue to slide, down, in all branches
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  21. -10
    15 November 2018 10: 55
    Brad.

    "Let's take an example from the Americans, the more ships, the better, we build a cloud of Ticonderogs and Zamwolts and we will be happy."
    The Americans doctrine of the fleet - bring a couple of thousand cruise missiles and cover them with the territory of conditional Uganda. And why do we need it? The same wonderful ticonderogs in service have 122 tomahawks (which do not shoot at ships at all) and 8 harpoons. We have any RTOs with 8 universal containers for calibers / onyx drown this ticonderogen without straining, and mass volleys in Uganda are useless to us. This does not negate the fact that the fleet is necessary, but the tasks are fundamentally different, and the optimal means for them are also different.
    1. +5
      15 November 2018 12: 20
      The Americans doctrine of the fleet - to bring a couple of thousand cruise missiles and cover them with the territory of conditional Uganda. And why should we?


      They have all in stock 4000 KR. You do not invent, please.

      Quote: Nick74
      We have any MRK with 8 universal containers for gauges / onyxes will drown this ticonderog without straining too much,


      You can even build a catapult and its caps, Tikonderogu. About the battle in the Gulf of Sirte, you did not seem to have heard. And there was exactly the situation of IRAs against the American NK. I would note that more advanced missiles IRAs would not have saved, and if you study the question, you will understand why.
      1. -8
        15 November 2018 12: 52
        Well 200. Well 500. Is there a difference? The fact is that they have nothing about the anti-ship component.
        When faced with an equal opponent, there will be trouble. If NATO has managed on the last exercises in peacetime !!! lose (And it seems irrevocably) Aegis frigate in a collision with a tanker in good weather, what will happen in wartime?

        And what does Libya have to do with it? Did they have high-precision long-range anti-ship missiles? What year was this RTO? And who controlled it? Well, you compared.
        1. +7
          15 November 2018 13: 02
          In peacetime, on the aircraft carrier 24 attack aircraft, each of which is capable of attacking a target with a pair of anti-ship missiles at a combat radius of approx. 600 km + not less than 50 km range RCC (and generally up to 200). In wartime, this value doubles, which in the end will give 96 missiles in the salvo. At the same time, a strike is made from such a distance, at which we will not receive the exact target command, nor will we be able to work out our own anti-ship missiles.

          Two attacks with 96 missiles in the salvo are completely the removal of the modern Pacific Fleet, for example.
          After that, their anti-submarine aircraft come into play. According to Admiral Vysotsky, said in 2013, in the absence of opposition, they will destroy the entire sub-melt in 48 hours.

          Well, that's all, we simply cut cabotage with our submarines, and about 2 of millions of Russians stop eating and warming, and the country loses about 60% of foreign trade. And all this is achieved without any strikes on the territory of the Russian Federation. What calls into question the role of the SNF.

          Well, etc.
          1. 0
            15 November 2018 23: 37
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Which calls into question the role of strategic nuclear forces.

            The role of strategic nuclear forces should never be called into question. The moment of impact on the enemy does not depend on the doctrinal documents of Russia, in any case from a technical point of view.
            1. 0
              16 November 2018 12: 28
              Obviously, the use of strategic nuclear forces will cause a counter-strike. Are you familiar with the estimates of the loss of the population of Russia from a massive US counter strike? I'm familiar. They are different, but nowhere is less than 100 million. at the moment of impact, provided that the population was not dispersed.

              So who will take on this for, for example, a submerged frigate?
              1. +1
                16 November 2018 14: 20
                I am sure that in the USA they are also familiar with estimates of the losses of their population. For me, nuclear weapons are one of the types of weapons that we have every right to use (due to my specialization). The threshold (loss of military personnel, population, military equipment, etc.) starting from which nuclear weapons should be applied is not determined by me. My task was to ensure that the silos in a certain positional area on time and without interference receive an order from the Supreme (very simplified).

                Therefore, I am extremely negative towards any treaties regarding the reduction of strategic offensive arms.
                1. +2
                  17 November 2018 09: 43
                  Certainly familiar, and not only they.
                  For example, I am familiar.

                  We have 100-130 millions at the time of the impact and 8-20 in the next two weeks, they have 50-60 millions at the time of the impact, and from 40 to 100 in the next two weeks.

                  Now we will subtract these losses from the initial population and come to unpleasant conclusions.

                  We are talking about missed strikes, that is, all the rockets started, the majority flew, and the population was not dispersed in the Russian Federation (in the USA it is already spread over the suburbs, hence the loss is smaller at the moment of impact).

                  Nobody wants to bring this up.
                  1. -1
                    17 November 2018 10: 40
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    We have 100-130 millions at the time of the impact and 8-20 in the next two weeks, they have 50-60 millions at the time of the impact, and from 40 to 100 in the next two weeks.

                    The figures are clearly overstated for Russia and underestimated for the United States. And this was done with one single purpose - to reduce our shock potential. Moreover, the content of nuclear weapons is budget expenditures.

                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Nobody wants to bring this up.

                    I agree. Nevertheless, knowing about all the consequences, I will react to the decision on the use of nuclear weapons completely calmly.
                    1. 0
                      20 November 2018 15: 07
                      The numbers are clearly too high for Russia and underestimated for the United States.


                      Not. They have a population dispersed in the suburbs. And here we are driven into one million people, and somewhere 11% of the population generally lives in one agglomeration, in the very one that will be plowed up to magma, happen that.

                      You can compare the population density in Los Angeles and St. Petersburg, for example.
                      This is the problem. But this is not about the Navy,
                      1. 0
                        20 November 2018 17: 35
                        Prior to the entry into force of START-1, the two sides had a much greater chance of sending a successful retaliatory strike. The same New York with its suburbs is a good target. However, you are right, this is not about the Navy.
          2. +2
            16 November 2018 11: 12
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            In peacetime, on the aircraft carrier 24 attack aircraft, each of which is capable of attacking a target with a pair of anti-ship missiles at a combat radius of approx. 600 km + not less than 50 km range RCC (and generally up to 200). In wartime, this value doubles, which in the end will give 96 missiles in the salvo. At the same time, a strike is made from such a distance, at which we will not receive the exact target command, nor will we be able to work out our own anti-ship missiles.

            Two attacks with 96 missiles in the salvo are completely the removal of the modern Pacific Fleet, for example.
            After that, their anti-submarine aircraft come into play. According to Admiral Vysotsky, said in 2013, in the absence of opposition, they will destroy the entire sub-melt in 48 hours.

            Well, that's all, we simply cut cabotage with our submarines, and about 2 of millions of Russians stop eating and warming, and the country loses about 60% of foreign trade. And all this is achieved without any strikes on the territory of the Russian Federation. What calls into question the role of the SNF.

            Well, etc.


            I understand you correctly that Ha32 and X47m2 at the same time, according to their grouping, will not work with tu22m3 and Mig31K?
            I correctly understood you that the Americans in this scenario are firmly counting on this. They cut the Pacific Fleet with the AUG and they do not even try to work out hypersonic raets on them ...
            For me it is unrealistic.
            1. -1
              16 November 2018 12: 16
              X-32 is still less reality than the Dagger - they are not made now. I do not know why, I see some problems.
              According to the Dagger, there are questions regarding the availability of the GOS there in principle.

              Plus the CO factor. It is very difficult to select a real and false target, it is not a fact that we have reliable technologies for this. Under the USSR, a "portrait" was loaded into the GOS - the reflected signal to which the rocket was supposed to react, but the Americans resolved this issue back in the 80s, putting a tanker with reflectors at risk.
              1. +2
                16 November 2018 12: 45
                Have you tried to view the American army also from the point of view of "#was lost"? Compare, for example, the average age of our aviation and theirs. Compare the average age of ships and the average age of the rockets. Compare the results of the actions of our air group and NATO's in Syria. Finally, compare the combat readiness ratio of equipment and the number of problems that arise in new developments.

                I, again, do not say that they are generally all bad, but we are fine.
                But you view the US AUG's trip to our shores roughly like Operation Desert Storm, while the US has since surrendered its positions very much, and we have never been Iraq.
                1. +1
                  17 November 2018 09: 48
                  I understand very well that they also have a lot of problems, moreover, I try to keep track of what they are doing and see a lot of "weak points" that they have.

                  But the fact that they have these weak points does not mean that we can be hammered into our problems, which in terms of the Navy are several times worse than theirs.
                  1. 0
                    27 November 2018 10: 17
                    Yes, no one offered to score on the development of our Navy, you just compare the fleets in the situation "They went out into the open sea, stood opposite each other in ranks and began to beat each other with cannons." In a real situation of a hypothetical AUG attack on our territory, we will be on our territory, where we have: layered air defense (which, mind you, the United States does not have anything close), diesel submarines, which in terms of blocking the path of the conditional AUG may well give a head start to nuclear , supersonic anti-ship missiles (which the United States does not have, as far as I know), tactical nuclear weapons, which the United States almost does not have, as well as hypersonic daggers capable of carrying this very TNW. And even if there are still few of them, but how much does an aircraft carrier and its escort need? Well, you can also add a significant depth to the territory, for causing significant damage to which the AUG will have to come close to the coast, and it is not a fact that they will get it.
          3. +1
            16 November 2018 12: 29
            And the aircraft carrier, approaching our coast at a distance of less than 1000 km, will not be attacked by daggers, calibers and submarines? One hit on the deck and all these 24 (48) aircraft go to feed the fish. And the planes flying up to the coast, even for 200 km, will not they become victims of the S-400 and aviation? And all this joy in general will be able to equally effectively try to attack us in the light of the active counteraction of electronic warfare equipment and the lack of a GPS signal? It’s not even funny to hunt diesel submarines off the coast of the enemy.
            1. +1
              16 November 2018 12: 47
              And how do you discover all this charm? Aircraft carriers, planes and more .... With this, there were real problems in the USSR with incomparable capabilities. Recall the same 1982 or 1983 there ....
              Now imagine the Far East and how many forces of funds are on it? Even taking into account the declared, and not real opportunities, it becomes a little sad. About EW and GPS strangulation, let's better just keep quiet, because neither you nor I know anything about it. And even if we know, then ........ then we will not speak anyway wink In the same way with the notorious daggers, calibers and all other charm. The real capabilities of the devices themselves and their applications so far resemble a certain Scheherazade .... By the way, in 1941 the Red Army had IT-34s and HFs, which the Wehrmacht had no analogues. Do not accidentally remind me, was it six months later? Of course, further, as we all know, a no less standard phrase follows about the 1945th ....
              That's just to everyone who did not live up to it, from this it never became easier. And there were such child prodigies .... It’s clear that the gypsy girl on the rake is a national dance, but how many can, even in academic theaters, the repertoire is sometimes changed ....
              1. +1
                16 November 2018 15: 19
                Liana two years ago was already in experimental-standby mode. But even without it, very many (I suspect even civilian weather) satellites will see AUG in good weather. The range of the radio horizon for the A-50 is about 400-500 km, the acoustics with submarines are in the region of 200-300 km. I have not yet remembered our ZGRLS and EW, since it is very doubtful that the AUG will go in radio silence mode. Group goal with EPR from 50 thousand sq.m. and a bunch of planes around.

                The only way your scenario will work (just as the 1941 scenario you mentioned almost did) is the betrayal of the elite and the top command. Yes, if an order comes from above “Ignore the advance of the AUG to our border, withdraw troops, etc., then a“ surprise strike ”is quite possible. True, it is not very clear to me what targets this“ sudden ”strike may be delivered in the Far East , for which the United States will not be afraid to lose its AUG.
                1. -1
                  16 November 2018 20: 11
                  Liana, let’s say so, may be in the pilot on duty, who argues .... But her characteristics, to put it mildly, are unknown and her compliance with them is incomprehensible. Common sense does not allow me to refer to it personally.
                  With satellites, everything is pretty ..... strange. Since even with an expanded group of these in the days of the USSR, the discovery was ....... not very. There are not very many A-50s, and they are by no means subordinate to the fleet. Yes, by the way, and there is nothing to cover them with at that distance. As for the acoustics on the submarines and 200-300 km - you can, of course, make fun of the submariners, but they are hardly interested, alas. And to estimate how many corresponding boards we have is also useful. And those who can carry out combat missions ....
                  ZGRLS, probably, can detect AUG, but it is unlikely that they are imprisoned for this. During the same WWII, it happened that the T-70 knocked out the Panthers, which does not mean that this is a regular practice. And yes, the AUG easily walks in radio silence mode, which was demonstrated more than once in the days of the USSR.
                  As for my script, so I did not offer any script. I just voiced that in much more eventful times, the task of countering AUG was solved ..... hard. And how it can be implemented now ...... I do not know. And about the betrayal of the elite and other things-you know better. It was just a precedent already .... And as for treason, nobody like I. Stalin has blamed this yet. At least during that war.
                  1. 0
                    27 November 2018 10: 54
                    What do you expect the Liana's performance characteristics to be published? Along with frequencies, coverage areas, satellite coordinates? I am sure it will be a wonderful gift for our "partners". And even after that you will say, "Well, of course, the data were published, but there is no guarantee that this is not an MO lie. Common sense tells me that this is nothing."
                    Tell me, do you also not take into account the Caliber and Iskander for the reason that no one has yet given exact performance characteristics?
  22. +1
    15 November 2018 11: 04
    In order for our Navy to be combat-ready, we need a highly skilled specialist organizer such as Korolev. The same is true for the ground forces, for the aerospace forces. And if the Sergeevs, specialists: financiers, economists, come, then we will not have anything workable.
    1. +1
      15 November 2018 12: 21
      Well, Lehman was a director of a consulting firm and an attack aircraft pilot. And it turned out like ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. -2
      15 November 2018 12: 54
      Quote: Anchonsha
      In order for our Navy to be combat-ready, we need a highly skilled specialist organizer such as Korolev.

      Accordingly, to obtain the necessary experience, each such "specialist organizer" must have a prison record of at least 5-6 years ... wink
  23. -1
    15 November 2018 14: 03
    The author is right! What is happening in the fleet now is a consequence of the number of fleets! 5 sets of admirals with retinue ..... The bloated states just rolls over! A cut is a multiple
  24. +8
    15 November 2018 14: 20
    I rarely comment on articles, except for some from familiar authors, but I could not restrain myself. For the article - definitely a plus. I won't say anything about the historical part, but the analytics in the second part, IMHO, is absolutely correct. Balanced fleets decide, and they can be built by unifying the material part as much as possible, since disagreement, and even a "wunderwolf", will not pull any military budget in the world, even the United States - an epic with the latest new buildings of the US Navy, a striking indicator of this. And the Russian fleet is needed if it wants to remain an influential country (and it wants to, judging by its foreign policy), both 100 years ago and now, the fleet is primarily a tool for tiling, due to its high mobility. The army cannot be transferred to the other end of the world for nothing, just like the VKS. It was lucky that there were airfields in Syria that were shared with Russia, but not for them? And how to conduct the supply? And if it were not Syria, but the same Egypt? As a result, the fleet seems to be there, but it is not a necessary tool. Moreover, the ship composition is constantly preserved. But the wunderwaffe are being designed, with underwater UAVs and torpedoes with nuclear power units ...
    1. +3
      15 November 2018 14: 30
      The same operation in Syria would have been impossible without the Navy.
  25. -1
    15 November 2018 16: 00
    Is it time
    Yes, as if you should never stop this, and so that there are too many beautiful words ...
  26. The comment was deleted.
  27. +2
    15 November 2018 16: 23
    Who cares how these corvettes differ, the article is not about that. There is a systematic, thoughtless spraying of funds, which are already lacking. The strategy and goals that the fleet pursues are not defined. There is no training system for those directly involved in its construction. All projects begin with the cutting of headstock, and then the development of the terms of reference. There are not enough competent people who can lead this clumsy and ugly in its current form of USC.
    1. 0
      15 November 2018 21: 03
      Quote: alessio
      The strategy and goals that the fleet pursues are not defined.

      Well, help the fleet determine the strategy and goals for three potential theaters of operations with fundamentally different conditions on each of them.
  28. 0
    15 November 2018 17: 31
    you first get a warm military naval base abroad tens of years ahead, and then dream about the fleet, the rest is all the talk of no understanding rattles
    1. +2
      15 November 2018 19: 39
      But you then here hoo hoo what understanding trepach, huh?
  29. 0
    15 November 2018 17: 42
    We must at all costs find the optimal cost and effectiveness project for a warship, most likely a frigate, with the combat power of a missile cruiser, which can be produced in mass quantities. Otherwise, we will simply perish without sea power and being surrounded by enemies on all sides. We need a unified and universal warship and urgently needed.
    1. 0
      15 November 2018 20: 59
      Quote: andrew 07

      We must at all costs find the optimal cost and effectiveness project for a warship, most likely a frigate, with the combat power of a missile cruiser

      Well, the size and price will also be appropriate. And by the way, will the frigate-cruisers also be driving for the OVR? PLO what will you provide?
  30. +1
    15 November 2018 21: 10
    "Naval development in post-Soviet Russia is an example of a combination of stupidity with inefficiency. The funds allocated for the restoration of the fleet only led to an increase in the scale of mistakes of those who were responsible for their development."
    I am not specialized in naval planning, gentlemen, but after these words I lost interest in studying the article. Especially when the "graters" begin in the plan - it is necessary to catch up and overtake the US Navy - the question is, why?!. Tomorrow we will catch up, there will be a hundred AB and EM, and what next? .. Next what?
  31. 0
    15 November 2018 22: 18
    A wonderful article, an absolute plus to the Author. The only thing I will allow myself to remark is that the ruble exchange rate at PPP is incorrectly given. Still, not 9-10 rubles, but 20 - 22.
  32. +1
    15 November 2018 23: 11
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    In addition to the raids of SEALs, only traces were found from them, all sorts of indirect signs, no one was caught, but, as they say, "such coincidences do not happen."

    You can link to sources, very interesting!
  33. +1
    15 November 2018 23: 41
    it is hardly possible now to take an example from the Americans — unification and large series are certainly correct, but they are done by expensive, although undoubtedly the most effective destroyers to date — but they can afford it — and are forced to use them even in cases where it would be much more cheaper ship or submarine. and their littoral series is neither a candle to God, nor a damn poker. About Zamvolt, the ship is already silent and useless in the current state of affairs, although its potential is very high both in missile defense and coastal strikes. But they didn’t bother to bring to mind, there is a ship, but there are no rockets and shells for it.
    Super-expensive aircraft carriers could partially be replaced in many cases by much cheaper UDC-like America or even Juan Carlos.
    For the price of one aircraft carrier, you can build more than a dozen, or even two dozen Juan Carlos, the savings would be huge.
    1. 0
      16 November 2018 12: 21
      Well, no one bothers us to do the simple, cheap and massive - but for the same managerial grounds.
      1. 0
        16 November 2018 14: 49
        it is difficult to argue with this - the series should be quite massive and standardized in equipment and weapons, so as not to build a ship for a specific anti-ship missile.
  34. +2
    16 November 2018 00: 20
    Quote: Vard
    This is, in principle, the answer to a whole series of articles on the military ... About the fact that they lost the arms race ... One fact ... we wrote off debts of several hundred billion dollars because they were formed due to the supply of weapons to the then friendly regimes ... It's the same in the same piggy bank ... and there are a lot of such facts .. I remember the shops in my city in the seventies ... Tourist breakfast and seaweed in assortment ...

    Yes, three more crusts of bread lay laughing
    You don’t need to make a noise about the tourist’s breakfast and seaweed (which appeared on the shelves in large numbers after 86)
    From the present "abundance" the Soviet differed only in better quality, lower price and smaller assortment !!!
    Well, a normal person does not need 800 varieties of sweets (50 are enough).
    Sour cream of two, milk of two, kefir of three varieties, fermented baked milk of one, five cheeses, six, cottage cheese of three is enough (especially when you consider that all this was a natural perish)
    Beer (which was sour in a bottle for 7 days), by the way, there were 4 varieties of bottled and draft local brewery.
    Sweet sparkling water was the Baikal Sea, Pinocchio, Tarhun, Duchess, Yaluko, Pepsi-Cola + local varieties (somewhere around 12 in total)
    Bread 4 grades and 10-15 grades of buns.
    And the canned everything was a rampart from mackerel to whale meat and krill meat (the current was sprat current, mayonnaise, Armenian cognac and expensive candies in gift boxes and oranges)

    It's all in remote provinces laughing
    Mauger, I didn’t live somewhere ?? !! wassat
    1. -1
      16 November 2018 14: 47
      you didn’t live there. Or rather, where necessary.
      the rest did not have it.
      sea ​​kale really appeared in the 80s, but before that, queues for many products were commonplace.
      1. +1
        16 November 2018 21: 24
        Who knows, where did you live? However, with recruits, I met with a weight deficit only in the middle of the 90's. And now he is also often present.
  35. +1
    16 November 2018 02: 03
    We need to learn how to build the Enclosures that are drowning from the enemy, aircraft carriers that do not work as they should, planes with 1000 shortcomings, engines for space rockets that cannot send a person into space, that's why they are bought from the Russian Federation, etc. Just that ...?
    1. -1
      16 November 2018 12: 20
      These are special cases, and at the heart of Arly Burke, Nimitz, Ticonderoga, Virginia and Ohio, where everything works.
      Don't forget, the article relies on what they did at the end of 80's - the beginning of 90's.
  36. 0
    16 November 2018 09: 26
    Since the times of Zumwalt and Lehman much water has flowed. Science does not stand still. The range of aviation increased significantly and the RCC itself also significantly increased both range and accuracy. Intelligence and discovery capabilities have also been updated. Hypersound also appeared. But the ships retained the main drawback - the ability to drown. Now, from the coast, you can control the vast territory of the sea with a couple of corvettes purely for raiding. The presence of a large number of cheap (or weakly armed) ships will do nothing. No one in their right mind will fight against the coastal defense of a strong enemy.
    Therefore, it is most important to have modern bases at key points where maritime trade takes place. Given that most of the trade in the Baltic and the Mediterranean Sea is already covered by bases in Kaliningrad and Tartus.
    The task of withdrawal and protection of nuclear submarines to patrol areas remains. That is what the Navy should solve first. Actually, it is solved as far as possible.
    1. 0
      16 November 2018 12: 19
      Therefore, it is most important to have modern bases in key points where we have sea trade.


      What forces are supposed to have on these bases?

      The task of withdrawal and protection of nuclear submarines to patrol areas remains. That is what the Navy should solve first. Actually, it is solved as far as possible.

      He does not dare.
      1. +1
        16 November 2018 12: 56
        As an example of a base, the same Tartus is Khmeimim. There everything seems to be in order with the composition. Of course, it would be nice to have the same in Vietnam for guarantees of maritime trade (with the same gas) in that region. But while China is supposedly an ally, this is not so relevant.
        The withdrawal of nuclear submarines into position areas is still problematic, but they are working on it. They repair and modernize Kuzya and gather Petya. And most corvettes and frigates are being built just for this.
        1. 0
          16 November 2018 22: 45
          There is an empty base, ships of the Black Sea Fleet and other fleets enter it, but there is no permanent squad of forces there.
          As a result, when Trump beat Syria for the last time, there were two fugats and two diesel-electric submarines. This could not impress anyone, and something cannot be controlled by such forces.
  37. 0
    16 November 2018 09: 32
    Wah! Then half spits on TV - we are the most, and they have 999 shortcomings ...
  38. 0
    16 November 2018 09: 51
    After a series of ships was ordered to the contractor, all changes to their design were frozen, it was only allowed to immediately begin work on a new “block” - a batch modernization that would affect many ship systems and would be done all at once, and together with a scheduled repair

    In world development practice, this is called RoadMap: changes are not made immediately, but are included in the plan for further product development.

    Being in a western company that develops communications for aviation, I asked - if a customer pays a lot of money for a certain feature, will they make changes to the code for his project? The answer was no.

    It’s like in that plot of "Wick": to drive the train on this path, then on another, and so on.

    The reason is seen in the absence or poor work of the military scientific institutes of the Navy (and not only the Navy). People like Lehman had to work there, understand the problem and propose solutions. Why such people did not grow up there and where they are with us is another matter.
    1. -1
      16 November 2018 12: 17
      Being in a western company that develops communications for aviation, I asked - if a customer pays a lot of money for a certain feature, will they make changes to the code for his project? The answer was no.


      Yes, somehow it should be so.
  39. -1
    16 November 2018 11: 45
    The meaning of the article in my opinion with hemp is the best - the enemy of the good! But most importantly, those who are upstairs. Their plans and decisions, whose benefit they are aimed at, for the benefit of Russia or ....?
  40. +1
    16 November 2018 20: 30
    An article in the style of Damantsev, even though now lie down and die. belay
  41. +1
    16 November 2018 21: 46
    I will try to comment.
    1. A lot of ships are needed. Any warship is a threat to which the enemy will have to react
    If the state’s economy does not allow to have many ships, then they will not be under any sauce. I recommend the author to look at Ukraine.
    2. It is necessary to make maximum efforts to reduce budget expenditures, but not to the detriment of pennants.
    Is this a declaration of intent? But, it does not cost anything if the author does not tell what budget expenses he proposes to reduce. Read. And there, in fact, it’s not about reducing budget spending, but about optimizing them. It is immediately clear that the author has a weak relation to economics and production, which is confirmed by his final phrase in this section
    We should learn from them both financial planning and production management.
    It makes no sense even to mention financial planning, or production management, if the focus is on "splitting". When the Rogozins and Serdyukovs are put at the head of the industrial sectors, people who do not have a specialized education for competent industrial management, it is not possible to learn anything from the Americans. The Americans are very pragmatic, and their idiots do not solve production problems. And even more so, the leaders of the country will never allow themselves to appoint a poor specialist, but a devoted comrade, as the head of an industry or production.
    3. It is necessary to reduce unproductive and expensive R & D.
    The problem is similar to problem # 2. Who will decide which R&D is unproductive and expensive? Look, for example, at the Kalashnikov concern. This concern now sells its lobbying skills, which are very reminiscent of franchising (and ships, and military vehicles, and clothes, and what not). The lobbying institution in Russia was copied according to American patterns, but it still turned out to be "our own", "sovereign". I dealt with the Marine Scientific Committee of the early XNUMXs. This was the bottom (judging by its then Chairman).
    Here I allow myself to make a reference to myself darling:
    A systematic approach does not allow trifles. In the created system, the expediency of which was justified, a list of necessary and sufficient elements should be clearly defined, and each necessary element of this system should no longer be considered as secondary.
    A system composed of relatively simple elements, but created taking into account the requirements of this system, is more efficient and tenacious than the unsystematic accumulation of the most advanced models of military equipment opposing it.

    http://apn-nn.com/analytic/nachalo-kontsa
    This work of mine was sent to the RF Ministry of Defense on February 1, 2005. Did it help? No, it didn't help. But because today only one idea is popular in Russia - "SUCCEED!"
    4. The fleet should be a tool for achieving strategic goals, and not just a fleet.
    This section again brings us back to the systems approach. But, there is one subtlety that the author does not understand. The doctrine is more of a political document. But the "Shipbuilding Program until 2050" is rather a production one. Why does the author demand their "correlation"? Correlation is the interdependence of random factors. What's a random factor? Everything is a random factor. Nevermind.
    5. We need a massive and cheap ship, a workhorse for all occasions, which, moreover, it’s not a pity to lose in battle. Alone expensive ships do not win.
    Here it is immediately required clarification. Since the links are not here, you have to work with someone translated and then reproduced text. We read the quote:
    Completely low-tech Navy will not be able to withstand certain [some. - Transl.] Types of threats and perform certain tasks. Given the need to have both enough ships and good enough ships, [Navy] should be a combination of high-tech and low-tech [fleet].
    Here I ask for attention. In square brackets in the first case, the translator's note is indicated. According to the accepted logic, it is assumed that the translator's notes also appear in the next two notes in square brackets. Now remove the translator’s notes in the last sentence, and it’s got a completely different meaning than the translator’s. This is not about high-tech and low-tech ships, but about high technology and low technology on one ship. And that makes sense. This is optimization. Well, there’s an old proven gas turbine and / or diesel on a frigate. And let him stand on a new frigate with new weapons. This is optimization. Cost optimization.
    6. It is necessary to reduce bureaucracy and simplify command chains in the field of shipbuilding.
    I do not even comment on this. These are the Augean stables. "- He will eat something, but who will give him ?!"
    To the author: There are still good specialists in Russia who know what and how to do. When Russia in 1998 found itself in “that” place, E. Primakov got it from “that” place, who invited Yury Maslyukov and his comrades, who did all the dirty work in less than a year. After that, they were all said thank you and removed them forever. And then the new effective manager V. Putin and his comrades "came" to the old team.
    1. 0
      16 November 2018 22: 43
      Quote: Vladimir Postnikov
      Here it is immediately required clarification. Since the links are not here, you have to work with someone translated and then reproduced text. We read the quote:


      This is my translation and my notes. Here is the original:

      It wouldn’t be enough If you want to meet the requirements of your choice, do not have the ability to meet any requirements. There was a mix of high and low.


      Adjusted for the fact that High and Low cost a little more than the low and high technologies used in building ships, but also, for example, their technical excellence, complexity, weapons, etc., the translation of the quotation reflects, in principle, that Zumwalt wanted and what he did.

      Everything else in the same vein, to be honest, is the same with a finger into the sky.
      1. +1
        17 November 2018 01: 31
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        In order to have both enough ships and good enough ships there had to be a mix of High and Low.

        It was not in vain that I noticed that the original is required here. From this quote in English, I see that your note [of the fleet] is your interpretation, i.e. Your hit with the finger in the sky, as, however, in the matter of cost optimization. I do not know what Zumbwalt wanted, and what he did, I see only your free interpretation of the quote. Compare again with the interpretation that I mentioned. And if you still thought about my mention of systemicity, then the meaning of the phrase would be more understandable to you
        a mix of High and Low.
        exactly as it is written in your presentation.
        1. 0
          17 November 2018 09: 51
          I do not know what Zumbwalt wanted, and what he did, I only see your free interpretation of the quote.


          But I read the original ideas of Zumvlt in the way he himself described them, listened to his old speeches in the recording, and I know what he managed to do and what the Congress hacked to him, and I even know how the fate of his projects developed later, in which countries they are still finished and with what changes.

          Do you understand the difference?
          1. 0
            17 November 2018 14: 40
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Do you understand the difference?

            I do not understand. And, first of all, I do not understand the difference between what and what. Can you argue?
            The fact that you read something is not an argument. There is, after all, a question: Have you understood what you read?
            Or did you understand it the way you could and / or wanted to understand?
            1. 0
              17 November 2018 17: 55
              The difference between you and me. I understood Zumvalt perfectly, he explained everything clearly on TV, and I speak English.
              1. 0
                17 November 2018 18: 52
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                The difference between you and me. I understood Zumvalt perfectly, he explained everything clearly on TV, and I speak English.

                Yes, now I can say that I understand the difference between us. Everything is quite clear. hi
  42. 0
    16 November 2018 22: 01
    Again: "Learn, learn and learn!" - I'm tired! And it's too late to study - we have already graduated from the General Staff Academy.
  43. 0
    19 November 2018 11: 56
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    they have 50-60 millions at the time of impact, and from 40 to 100 in the next two weeks

    You are clearly serving in the United States Defense Cyber ​​Forces bully

    Why would your losses in TMV amount to 160 million people, if all US megacities are located on the Atlantic and Pacific coasts and, therefore, are ideal targets for the Russian 100-mt Poseidon?

    160 million - these are only those who burn out, die under the ruins, receive a lethal dose of radiation, and whom they wash off into the ocean on the coast. But there are still Russian ICBMs and SLBMs that have targets deep in the North American continent - this is plus 160 million. Total 320 million people.
    1. 0
      19 November 2018 13: 49
      Sorry, why not gigaton "Poseidons" then? And then the figure is somehow not round ...
      This is not to mention the fact that this topic is generally real, and when these very things will be "put on alert." EMNIP, we were not talking about a hundred megs, that same head, Novaya Zemlya, was under 50. And can it, with its dimensions, be shoved into this very device. And the consequences, based on these 50 megs, will not be as dire as you described them. And they will be only under conditions of triggering in strictly defined places. And not all along the coast. Not to mention the fact that not all megacities of the "permanent partner" are located on the coast.
      1. 0
        19 November 2018 14: 13
        On the Internet, there are specialized engines for calculating and imposing on the map the consequences of the explosion of thermonuclear charges of various powers. For example, you can "detonate" a 100-megaton charge on the surface of the Hudson opposite Manhattan Island - you will be "pleasantly" surprised by the radius of light radiation from a plasma hemisphere induced by radiation from the ejection of soil from the bottom of the river and, especially, by the shock wave. With a radius of damage of several tens of kilometers, the KVO plus or minus a few kilometers does not play a role.

        The Soviet thermonuclear aerial bomb AN602 of the 1961 model had three stages of operation - the first was plutonium, the second was lithium, and the third was uranium. Before the explosion on Novaya Zemlya, the third stage was replaced with a lead shell, so the explosion power was only 58 Mtn. The diameter of the AN602 was equal to 2 meters, the weight was 26 tons - suitable figures for the Poseidon.

        Name at least one metropolis (with a population of at least 10 million people) deep in the North American continent.
        1. +1
          19 November 2018 14: 41
          Well, about megalopolises everything is enough ...... clearly. "Atlantic Piedmont" - 17,6 million, "Texas Triangle" - 19,7 million, although one might say that one side of it is close enough to the coast of the bay, but still not on it wink , "Megalopolis Great Lakes" - 55,5 million.
          26 tons for a device of 46 tons (we will operate pedivics wink ) - sorry, a bit too much .... As well as the diameter ... As well as the fact that it is all pretty ... not easy to recreate. Not to mention the fact that an apparatus with such capabilities can generally be created in the size of 50 tons. About the current state of affairs in "legal proceedings" sensitively aware. And here we are talking about mass production, although not an assembly line ...
          As for calculating the effectiveness of large beater - it is unlikely that something can pleasantly surprise me, excuse me. I’m more like Burns. However ... There is one small difficulty in this whole story. There is no feedback from this thing, but it slightly upsets what And yes, for "last greetings" it may be suitable, but the massive use of it, even about half a dozen, will be the last greetings to everyone ...
          1. 0
            19 November 2018 15: 02
            Quote: frog
            "Atlantic Piedmont" - 17,6 million, "Texas Triangle" - 19,7 million, although one might say that one side of it is close enough to the coast of the bay, but still not on it, "Megalopolis Great Lakes" - 55,5 , XNUMX million

            Atlantic, the edge to the bay, lakes (Great) - does not resemble anything? laughing Well, okay - they persuaded that these megalopolises will go under the "Sarmatians" in monoblock gear.

            For communication with the Poseidons, Zeus on the Kola Peninsula is quite suitable.

            How will hitting the ocean coasts of North America, Europe, Japan, and Korea be "hello to all"? The Russian military, economic and mobilization potential is by no means located on the coast, and the induced radiation in the soil ejected by the Poseidons is localized no closer than a thousand kilometers from the borders of Russia (except for the Primorsky Territory of the Russian Federation near the Japanese Islands and the Korean Peninsula).

            The need for "Poseidons" can be estimated at the level of hundreds of units - for the "glass transition" of the coast of all potential adversaries of Russia, including the Gulf countries, Pakistan, India, Indonesia, China, Turkey, Israel and "various other Swedes"
            1. 0
              19 November 2018 17: 38
              Sorry, the question was, EMNIP, sho all the cities on the coast. About the fact that there are no other ways to influence ........ the opponent, I kind of did not even stutter.
              As for the use of "Zeus" and others ..... analogs - are we talking about 46 tons anymore? True, she did not immediately stand ...
              That is, the use of hundreds of SBN units with a capacity of 100 megatons almost simultaneously - is this not hi ?? And you are an optimist .... Especially considering the fact that the return will still be, albeit not so large-scale. Thank you very much for the informative conversation.
              1. 0
                20 November 2018 12: 09
                Mercy for a reminder of 46 tons, but the Wikipedia article on "Status-6" only gives an estimate of the required displacement of an underwater vehicle for the delivery of 1,5 Mt warheads weighing 7 tons, and by no means the real displacement of Poseidon (if we consider it "Status -6 ").

                In addition, the American Mk4 warhead with a nuclear charge of W76 with a power of 100 kt weighs 160 kg, which suggests that the weight of the 1,5-Mt warhead will be no more than 1,5 tons, since there is a regressive dependence of the mass of the thermonuclear charge on its power - see weight 100 - Mt A602 bombs with the third uranium stage and aerodynamic body.
                Hence the rule for those using Wikipedia as a source of information: "Trust, but verify", - Ronald Reagan (C) laughing

                Quote your opponents more correctly: 100 Russian "Poseidons are hello not all, but only to those potential opponents of the Russian Federation, in which the majority of the population, economy and military potential are located on the ocean coast.
                1. 0
                  20 November 2018 13: 10
                  Since all the information about "terrible wunderstacks" is lyrics, for well-known reasons, I prefer to operate on the wiki wink
                  The topic of capacities of hundreds of megatons was raised by me. If we are talking about the terrible tsunamie, then the mentioned 1,5 megatons are not enough. Checking, of course, is good and useful, no one argues here, just check now? Cartoons? Some kind of abstract information? Demonstrate howling antinode? Agitprop games are not very interesting to me, alas ...
                  As for quoting opponents, you know better. You suggested polishing all opponents with that amount. And, as long as you use "specialized engines", think about how much is formed after such a number of such heads are triggered. And do not forget about the rollback, because everything will not be demolished at once. A certain amount of funds on the opponent's database will work normally. And we don't really need much. But what will happen next ...
                  However, communication in this vein is devoid of any meaning, so all the best.
    2. 0
      20 November 2018 15: 10
      Our population density is higher than in the USA, for example - 11% of all Russians live in one urban agglomeration. There is no such thing.
      1. 0
        20 November 2018 16: 05
        In the case of a special period of at least one day, the crowded population of the Russian Federation will drop to zero.

        But the crowded military-industrial potential on the ocean coast of NATO countries (and not NATO) will not go anywhere.
        1. 0
          20 November 2018 18: 25
          I was in an emergency on a city scale and more than once. To evacuate a million people, it will just take a break for time, and in order to simply leave the roads free for evacuation, you will have to send troops into the cities with the right to shoot to kill for civilians who violate the authorities' orders.
          This is a very big folly to think that something can be dispersed in a day.
          1. 0
            21 November 2018 12: 31
            You simply do not know how the civil defense system worked in the USSR.
            1. 0
              22 November 2018 00: 13
              Chernobyl showed well how it worked.
              1. 0
                22 November 2018 13: 10
                We are talking about evacuation before a nuclear disaster (during a special period), and not after (as in Chernobyl).
                1. 0
                  22 November 2018 13: 14
                  Who cares? In Chernobyl, people did not know what happened, but they needed to be taken out urgently. There is no complete analogy with the threatened period - there are no victims and destructions yet, and evacuation is urgently needed.
                  1. 0
                    22 November 2018 13: 24
                    If in this way you want to find out from me the Soviet way of evacuating a millionth city during the day, then you are trying in vain laughing
                    1. 0
                      22 November 2018 15: 04
                      300 kilotons exploded over me once, just very high))) And a few years before that, a carriage with chemistry in the center of the city gave a leak. I saw a human herd with my own eyes, you will not convince me after this.
                      1. 0
                        22 November 2018 15: 26
                        The key moment is the organization of evacuation.
                      2. 0
                        22 November 2018 15: 37
                        First you have to shoot. Put a block of posts along all the tracks in order to prevent people from using their cars. To do this, send troops into the city. In every city.
                        This is the loss of surprise, the enemy in response to this dolbanet immediately, will not wait.
                      3. 0
                        22 November 2018 15: 45
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        First have to shoot

                        Yes.
  44. 0
    19 November 2018 20: 50
    Dear author, can you tell us a little more about the landing of special forces of the US Navy in Chukotka, Kamchatka and Primorye
  45. 0
    20 November 2018 13: 48
    Quote: frog
    I prefer to operate it wiki
    about the terrible tsunami

    It was not about Vicki, but about your ability to operate it.

    A tsunami occurs as a result of an 100-mt thermonuclear explosion at a depth of not less than 1 km, and I talked about similar explosions in shallow water, generating exclusively light, a shock wave, induced radiation in the ground and radioactive fission products of the uranium shell (neutron radiation is quenched within the plasma ball several kilometers in diameter).
  46. 0
    9 December 2018 19: 03
    To begin with, it would be nice to decide whether Russia needs a fleet, what kind, and for solving what problems, and then "learn from the enemy" - for which the fleet has drunk the dough tongue
  47. 5-9
    0
    18 December 2018 15: 02
    It’s better for young healthy and rich people than old poor and sick people.
    I don’t understand how the experience of the USA in the 80s, which baked EM and FR in batches and "600 ships", has to do with our reality, when there is no production capacity, money, etc. In general, nothing to build for 10 years, licking projects, modifying components and preparing production?
    The USA themselves have "from novya" for today:
    1. 2 pieces of a fantastic kind of raw cruisers for 4 lard each, which are inferior to the extreme Burke due to the lack of a missile defense radar ... and all for the sake of the idea to shoot from 2 guns on the Papuans .. shells for 900 thousand bucks.
    2. 2 types of LCS for 3500 tons with weapons from a 57-mm cannon and rotorcraft ... promise ATGM (!!!) to deliver. Super!
    Of course, Burke and Virginia are baked there like pies, but degradation is evident ...
  48. -1
    19 December 2018 20: 13
    it remains to learn how to print money like US bucks, and so that they have some more weight in the world.
  49. 0
    15 January 2019 23: 56
    The article is simply saturated with "servility before the West."
    The Soviet fleet of times before the year 91 was at the peak of power in the entire history of Russia.
    "Hiding in the bases"? Really?
    Operation "Atrina" off the coast of the USA-1985
    Operation "Apport" off the coast of the USA-1987
    Combat services in the Mediterranean Sea (including combat services of heavy nuclear missile cruisers).
    The Soviet Union collapsed due to the ideological degeneration of the leadership, and not as a result of the construction of a "fleet of 600 ships." But the United States, with this construction and then spending on operation, began its "long road in the dunes" to a n-trillion dollar debt.

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