Military Review

In the Russian Federation, Chinese fighters criticized

58
The Russian Su-57 fighter and the MiG 1.44 demonstrator surpass the latest Chinese aircraft, leads TASS opinion of two honored military pilots of the Russian Federation.




They noted that the Chinese X-NUMX fighter of the J-5 generation has a large number of copied elements from the Russian MiG 20 technology demonstrator aircraft, as well as from the American F-1.44 Raptor and F-22 aircraft.

According to the honored test pilot, Hero of Russia Magomed Tolboev, the basis of all aerospace technology is Soviet-Russian fundamental and applied science. Therefore, in the Chinese car there is nothing of his own, except, perhaps, “some kind of element base”.

In turn, Honored Military Pilot of the Russian Federation, Major General Vladimir Popov noted that Chinese engineers "boldly take everything new in the technical guise of advanced countries." Today, their 5 generation aircraft would be more correctly classified as 4 ++ generation machines, but this is already a great success for the Chinese defense industry, he added.

According to Russian pilots, it will be possible to talk about the full fifth generation after the appearance of our own aircraft engines in China. So far they have not got everything, for example, modern turbojets. The Chinese are still unable to create the same units that are already working in Russia and the United States.

Nevertheless, the work in this direction goes: at the AirShow China 2018 airshow, the Chinese 4 fighter of the J-10B generation performed the “maple leaf” and the “Pugachev cobra” being equipped with the Chinese WS-10 power units. Earlier on these machines installed Russian engines.

In addition, in September, the Chinese press announced the completion of the development of a domestic WS-15 engine for J-20 fighters. In the meantime, they are equipped with power units purchased in Russia.
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org
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  1. Underwater hunter
    Underwater hunter 12 November 2018 13: 31
    +7
    The good news is that our plane is still the best. I did not doubt it. But the fact that I have to explain it already begins to alarm.
    1. Shurik70
      Shurik70 12 November 2018 13: 42
      +18
      I believe that the Chinese will no less authoritatively explain what is best for them.
      Only true mass clashes will find out the truth. But it’s better to see her, to find out the truth.
      Better to be proud of our own, and let the Chinese be proud of their own. And we will never know whose car is actually better.
      1. figwam
        figwam 12 November 2018 13: 57
        -1
        Today, their 5th generation aircraft would be more correctly categorized as 4 ++ generation machines,

        He is too big, respectively, in terms of maneuverability and detection by the enemy, he definitely loses to ours.
        1. ProkletyiPirat
          ProkletyiPirat 12 November 2018 15: 41
          -3
          Quote: figvam
          Today, their 5th generation aircraft would be more correctly categorized as 4 ++ generation machines,

          He is too big, respectively, in terms of maneuverability and detection by the enemy, he definitely loses to ours.

          War is not a game or competition; in it, advantages in one area are easily overlapped by disadvantages and problems in another.

          So, for example, instead of "the most maneuverable fighter" (I'm talking about our Sushki), you can make "the most maneuverable missile" and even shoot down "unparalleled in the world" on old aircraft. Even the fact that the aircraft is "larger" may be an advantage, not a disadvantage, since a larger aircraft can be equipped with a larger radar, so that you can see further, and therefore detect the enemy earlier.
      2. iouris
        iouris 12 November 2018 14: 29
        +5
        Quote: Shurik70
        Only true mass clashes will find out the truth.

        And who is capable of this? The advanced army destroys aviation at airfields. No one (except the USA) sets the task of defeating a large state. Large states sometimes smash small states and paramilitary groups that do not have aviation. So in aviation it is necessary to ensure quality, not quantity.
        As for the PRC, it is a catching-up country and is doing this very successfully. The next barrier is overcome, and higher milestones are not planned tomorrow. It was the same in the USSR, which, alas and ah, is no longer behind us. In addition, there are no buyers of our aircraft: all this was given to the United States, the EU and China.
      3. Vita vko
        Vita vko 12 November 2018 15: 59
        +1
        Quote: Shurik70
        I believe that the Chinese will no less authoritatively explain what is best for them.
        Only true mass clashes will find out the truth. But it’s better to see her, to find out the truth.

        It is a fact that the Chinese military-industrial complex is developing very rapidly. And the dynamics of development is very high, mainly due to huge resources and low levels of corruption. Trying to slow it down by technological restrictions on export is futile and harmful for Russia. Especially when it comes to joint opposition to US attempts to retain the functions of the world gendarme and dictator. As long as Russia maintains leadership in the leading aviation, missile and space industries, it is necessary to use this more actively, and not behave like a "dog in the manger" inventing various horror stories.
        Therefore, the export project of the 5th generation FGFA aircraft, which is slowing down India, has long been time to reorient to China.
      4. viralig
        viralig 12 November 2018 21: 14
        0
        I agree that it is better not to recognize, but they can meet, for example, in the sky of India.
    2. URAL72
      URAL72 12 November 2018 14: 44
      +3
      The pilots are of course well-deserved, and they have an engineering degree, but how do they know what the J-20 really is? Engines? So we ourselves are half as far behind the US in terms of resources, but is this the main thing in aerial combat? And the Chinese have something to draw on. No other arguments were given. The stealth technologies on the J-20 confuse me, the characteristics of the AFAR are not known, as is the reliability, but mass, mass production is alarming. Armament level. No need to evaluate the potential partner.
      1. NEOZ
        NEOZ 12 November 2018 15: 18
        -1
        Quote: URAL72
        but how do they know that there is actually a J-20?

        suggest.
        Quote: URAL72
        Engines?

        Well, yes, this is a proven fact - the Chinese dviguns are ours !!!!
        Quote: URAL72
        And the Chinese have something to draw on.

        they have nothing .... they have the engines of the Russian Federation.
        Quote: URAL72
        Stealth technology on the J-20 confuses me

        all confuse .... and PGO confuses .....
        Quote: URAL72
        AFAR characteristics are not known

        hardly better than ours ... well, certainly not better than the US ...
        ps
        I believe that in the 5th generation 75% of the aircraft is an engine.
        because the engine should accelerate the stealth plane (not ideal, from an aerodynamic point of view) to supersonic without afterburner + weapons + radar operation.
        1. URAL72
          URAL72 12 November 2018 16: 27
          +2
          I believe that in the fifth generation avionics is 75%, the rest is stealth technology, and somewhere I’ll hide the engine. This is evidenced by the F-35, which is not underestimated in vain, and the MiG-31, which flies in super-sound without afterburner and has a radar, albeit with PFAR since 1978.
  2. BAI
    BAI 12 November 2018 13: 32
    -7
    Today, their 5th generation aircraft would be more correctly categorized as 4 ++ generation vehicles

    These are the pluses we draw, soon there will be 4 ++++++ and one more +/-). And all over the world, generations are changing.
    1. Jerk
      Jerk 12 November 2018 13: 46
      +4
      Here's how to say it. F-35 - 5th generation? But nothing that he does not hold supersonic speed without afterburner? And then which one is the 5th generation ?! No, it's 4 ++ at best. But if you really want to, we will call him the fifth generation, and the Russian fighters - the fourth, although they also have not met only one condition of belonging to the fifth generation. Sleight of hand, and no fraud ...
      1. svp67
        svp67 12 November 2018 14: 07
        0
        Quote: Jerk
        F-35 - 5th generation? But nothing that he ...
        Well call it generation "5 -"
    2. Turist1996
      Turist1996 12 November 2018 19: 07
      0
      Worldwide?! This is, excuse me, where and who, what do you call "all over the world"?
      So far, only the United States and Russia have noted this .. And this is by no means "the whole world" ..
  3. NEXUS
    NEXUS 12 November 2018 13: 34
    +5

    And as for J20, I have already said ... everything is not very good there on the dvigunami, and the EPR is probably much more than that of classmates. At the same time, having dimensions larger than that of any 5 generation fighter, the internal compartment is not the largest.
    1. Turist1996
      Turist1996 12 November 2018 19: 17
      -1
      According to the EPR, in my opinion, it is already clear there that this figure for the "Chinese" is at the level of the MiG-31. That is - never "stealth".
      With engines, too, not everything is going smoothly. Neither by resource nor by weight and size characteristics.
      But with the on-board electronics, the Chinese may well be on the level.
      In addition to radar and electronic warfare, our scientific and engineering school is still at its best.
  4. Occupant
    Occupant 12 November 2018 13: 35
    +1
    Once they’ll do their own thing .... The main thing is persistent desire
    1. Black sniper
      Black sniper 12 November 2018 14: 44
      0
      This is unlikely, if progress does not stand still. Someone will come up with something better they (the Chinese) will try to copy it, because they are born right away with the printer in their hands. laughing
      1. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 12 November 2018 18: 50
        0
        Quote: Black Sniper
        after all, they are born right away with the printer in their hands.

        In addition to borrowing technology, they also move their fundamental science /// which they never had ///. They overtook the USA in the number of scientific publications.
        1. Consultant
          Consultant 12 November 2018 18: 52
          -2
          Quote: Thunderbolt
          They overtook the USA by the number of scientific publications

          You see ... all these "number of publications", "citation indices" and so on, excuse me, shnyaga, have an extremely indirect relationship to science as such.
          1. Thunderbolt
            Thunderbolt 12 November 2018 19: 11
            0
            Quote: Consultant
            You see ... all these "number of publications", "citation index" and so on, excuse me, shnyaga, have an extremely indirect relationship to science as such.

            And what does the "citation index" have to do with this? But this is such an indicator of scientific activity. In applied terms, this translates into the fact that China is taking the lead in valid patents.
            1. Consultant
              Consultant 12 November 2018 19: 16
              -2
              Quote: Thunderbolt
              And where is the "citation index"?

              Citation index is one of the most common scientometric indicators and is used (for formal assessment) in the scientific and bureaucratic circles of many countries.

              Quote: Thunderbolt
              In applied terms, this translates into the fact that China is becoming a leader in valid patents

              I don't know what "valid patents" are, but the number of patents itself is also ... about nothing, believe me.
  5. bessmertniy
    bessmertniy 12 November 2018 13: 40
    +3
    No fear - copy everything. All copyrights are spit and rubbed. negative But, if you always go on someone else’s rut, you will never be ahead. The Chinese need to do something original of their own. Then superiority is possible.
  6. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 12 November 2018 13: 43
    -2
    They have already laid the potential for modernization, and we, having tested the demonstrator for a decade, are losing this golden time! The Chinese already know what their lag is, our engineers have to force and gallop to plug the lag that has come out outside ....
  7. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 12 November 2018 13: 47
    +4
    nevertheless, work in this direction is going on: at the AirShow China 2018 air show, a Chinese 4th-generation fighter J-10B performed a “maple leaf” and “Pugachev cobra” while being equipped with Chinese WS-10 power plants. Previously, Russian engines were installed on these machines.


    Talk about 5m, and the 4th generation made the cobra and only with the advent of the engine with UVT .... Su27 did it with Al31 in the 80s ....
  8. rocket757
    rocket757 12 November 2018 13: 48
    +5
    And let's not criticize, but do our own, how much you need and what you need !!!
    This is better than any criticism and ridicule!
  9. SS-18 Satan
    SS-18 Satan 12 November 2018 13: 48
    +6
    when the Chinese fighters speak ... it's funny! it is necessary to write Soviet-Russian and Euro-American copies of fighters made of Chinese alloys.
  10. svp67
    svp67 12 November 2018 14: 01
    +1
    They noted that the Chinese X-NUMX fighter of the J-5 generation has a large number of copied elements from the Russian MiG 20 technology demonstrator aircraft, as well as from the American F-1.44 Raptor and F-22 aircraft.
    Sorry, but what is this about? There is an airplane, it multiplies in many copies, and everything else is secondary. You might think that the USSR did not copy someone else’s in its developments.
    1. ksv36
      ksv36 12 November 2018 14: 24
      -3
      The USSR may have copied at the very beginning, spying on some places. But not just as brazenly copy left and right. Japan, it would seem an advanced country in technology, people are hardworking and assiduous. But diamond cutters did not work out of them. Not enough of the smallest - creative fuse. The Chinese have not gone far from the Japanese. The same narrow eyes. But if they were to open wider, they would have long seen their doorposts. And they would have let out aircraft of the eleventh generation. wink
      1. snake
        snake 12 November 2018 14: 48
        -3
        Quote: ksv36
        But not just as brazenly copy left and right. Japan, it would seem an advanced country in technology, people are hardworking and assiduous. But diamond cutters did not work out of them. Not enough of the smallest - creative fuse. The Chinese have not gone far from the Japanese. The same narrow eyes. But if they were to open wider, they would have long seen their doorposts.

        Yes, quit. China used to copy, but now it produces a lot. Yes, at least look at the fleet. Destroyers like pies are released, while in Russia there are corvettes and boats. And before counting other people's shoals, it would be nice to count your own. The width of your eyes I hope is enough for this.
        1. K-612-O
          K-612-O 12 November 2018 15: 29
          -2
          And what would happen to their destroyers without German turbines?
          1. starpom
            starpom 12 November 2018 20: 53
            +2
            Quote: K-612-O
            And what would happen to their destroyers without German turbines?

            But at least they have German turbines.
        2. ksv36
          ksv36 12 November 2018 15: 31
          0
          You're right. I want to ask my eyes for the mistakes of the Chinese.
        3. Turist1996
          Turist1996 12 November 2018 19: 30
          +1
          Not an indicator at all! Copying and compiling is not an indicator of engineering.
          Mozart can be played by many, "remixes" and "covers" are now sculpted by everyone who is not lazy, but not everywhere Mozart is born.
          Here it is the same - you can copy as much as you like, but a new and breakthrough "generate" - some just do not have enough tyam.
  11. Berkut24
    Berkut24 12 November 2018 14: 23
    +2
    When the Chinese make engines for afterburning for the 5th generation, then it will be possible to discuss something.
  12. Allexxx
    Allexxx 12 November 2018 14: 32
    +1
    Did I miss something or release a new aviation simulator? Where two honored military pilots of the Russian Federation could compare the parameters of real Chinese J-20, American F-22 Raptor and F-35 with the Russian Su-57 fighter, which is not yet produced and not accepted for service? What do honored military pilots of the Russian Federation smoke to conduct such comparative flights?
    1. Mestny
      Mestny 12 November 2018 15: 24
      -1
      Are you related to aviation?
      Constructor, tester, honored pilot?
      Or so, schoolboy?
      1. The comment was deleted.
  13. Igor Borisov_2
    Igor Borisov_2 12 November 2018 14: 34
    0
    Quote: SS-18 Satan
    when the Chinese fighters speak ... it's funny! it is necessary to write Soviet-Russian and Euro-American copies of fighters made of Chinese alloys.

    Maybe they don’t have much with aviation, but they have a lot to learn about ships ....
    1. ksv36
      ksv36 12 November 2018 15: 34
      +1
      Something seems to me that the Chinese have learned shipbuilding from the USSR. Yes, and ships do not need spatulas for engines. And copy the pie a lot of mind and do not. I'm exaggerating.
  14. Engineer
    Engineer 12 November 2018 14: 43
    0
    I'm embarrassed to ask, but how is the MiG 1.44 demonstrator superior? What do they have in common besides the "duck" scheme? The MiG 1.44 had no weapons at all. There were ordinary engines. In the series in this form, he would not go. There, and other engines were planned, and the wedge air intake, and a large proportion of composites in the airframe and wing. Tolboyev is a very respected pilot, but he blasted out some nonsense or simply his words were distorted by the journalists, as usual.
    1. Turist1996
      Turist1996 12 November 2018 19: 36
      0
      And the fact that the Chinese J-20 largely repeats exactly the MiG-1.44 in terms of the overall layout and aerodynamic design.
      The age difference is more than 20 years.
      This is the superiority.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 13 November 2018 11: 26
        0
        Aerodynamic design - yes, layout - no. 1.44 - mid-plane with an air intake under the fuselage, j-20 - high-wing with a side arrangement of air intakes. And judging so, then superiority for Saav 37 Wiggen
  15. Abrash
    Abrash 12 November 2018 14: 49
    -2
    But the Chinese have combat UAVs, but Russia does not! And to compare the number of new models of equipment taken into service in quantitative terms ... if we have 10 pieces, then there will be 100 of them!
    1. ksv36
      ksv36 12 November 2018 15: 47
      +1
      But the Chinese have combat UAVs, but Russia does not! And to compare the number of new models of equipment taken into service in quantitative terms ... if we have 10 pieces, then there will be 100 of them!


      Nice person. Too shy to ask, what year are you? When we began to have S-300 on combat duty, the Chinese only dug the ground with hoes and planted rice-chewed. China has not yet reached the power that was in the USSR. And no one betrayed China and did not destroy it from the inside. And they have not yet had the Orange Revolution, as we have in the 91st year. If the USSR survived, I can’t even imagine what technologies we would have. On Mars, they would probably plow and plant a year that way in 2010 +/-. And you are UAV, UAV ...
    2. Consultant
      Consultant 12 November 2018 20: 28
      -3
      Quote: Abrasha
      to compare the number of new models of equipment accepted for service in quantitative terms ... if we have 10 pieces, then there will be 100

      The more "samples of equipment", the more difficult it is to repair it wink
  16. mvg
    mvg 12 November 2018 14: 53
    0
    Something prompts a comparison of what is not, with what is already more than five hundred, 186 22s and 320 35s. And the Chinese now have more modern aircraft than the Russian Air Force. And the pace of production is many times higher both for those behind the puddle and those that are close by. In a dozen years, we will continue to maintain a fleet of 300-350 combat-ready aircraft, and our "friends" will have a fleet of several thousand.
    All recent conflicts were won by aviation.
    PS: And how can reputable pilots make comparisons if they do not know either the technical characteristics of the airframe or the avionics capabilities. They never even professionally flew the same J-11B, J-10C. But the Chinese themselves flew on all of our devices. No wonder the Chinese and Indians long ago abandoned Soviet avionics. Someone from our pilots sat in the cockpit of the last blocks of the F-16C or F-15E or even Typhoons, Rafaly? What are they comparing to?
  17. romb
    romb 12 November 2018 14: 56
    +1
    It is interesting to read what is happening on Chinese thematic sites, where this opinion may be discussed.
  18. Vard
    Vard 12 November 2018 15: 03
    +3
    The whole problem is that the Chinese have already gone into the series ... and our best in the world is still in the samples ...
    1. K-612-O
      K-612-O 12 November 2018 15: 44
      +1
      And why produce a series of crude planes, so that later it is expensive and painful to bring to mind? In my opinion, it is necessary to develop and put into production a really finished product, without subsequent "file processing".
  19. EnGenius
    EnGenius 12 November 2018 15: 48
    +1
    The concept of the aircraft was copied from the F-35, but if the American was also intended for takeoff from aircraft carriers, then the Chinese were "fed" by making it more of an airfield-based tactical strike fighter.

    As for the "borrowing", it is more likely that this aircraft borrowed more stealth technology from the American penguin. But the aerodynamic scheme with the MiG1.44, since they received documentation for it and did some elaboration. So the plane is mostly Chinese, you can’t accuse them of copying them in detail. Their second project is rather a copy of all the main solutions from the F35, but it seems to be planned for export and judging by the information, there is no success.
  20. bald
    bald 12 November 2018 16: 29
    0
    Their superiority is that they will not be riveted like caramels.
  21. 123456789
    123456789 12 November 2018 17: 28
    0
    According to Mikhail Strelts, chief designer of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, the platform for the newest Russian machine was developed from scratch. As a result, “drying” became invisible to radars and other detection systems of a potential enemy.
    The designer explained that for the Su-57 from scratch, a glider, an aircraft system, and a power plant were developed. Now it will be extremely difficult to detect a machine using both radar and infrared scanning.
    https://hi-tech.mail.ru/news/su-57-nevidimka/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com
  22. Tochilka
    Tochilka 12 November 2018 22: 21
    0
    after reading the statements of the personal OPINIONS of the two pilots, to write in the heading "criticized in the Russian Federation" looks like a provocation.
  23. Naughty
    Naughty 13 November 2018 00: 50
    0
    Quote: Shurik70
    I believe that the Chinese will no less authoritatively explain what is best for them.
    Only true mass clashes will find out the truth. But it’s better to see her, to find out the truth.
    Better to be proud of our own, and let the Chinese be proud of their own. And we will never know whose car is actually better.

    We find out, it’s not evening yet. They are not friends to us. By the way, they do not hide it. They are partners smile
  24. Maverick1812
    Maverick1812 13 November 2018 09: 58
    +1
    Probably worth adding ... while we're better! How long?! 30-40 years ago, such a comparison would have occurred only to a complete moron, now that the shelves of our country are littered with Chinese goods, and we ourselves live by inertia, due to the Soviet backlog, it is not at all funny .....
  25. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 13 November 2018 14: 26
    0
    The Chinese have already written that the T-50 has no internal compartments and artificial wings.
  26. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 13 November 2018 14: 28
    0
    Chinese military bloggers have not yet moved away from the sad news that the J-20 fighter carries only four medium-range air-to-air missiles in its internal compartments, while the F-22 carries six, VP reports citing mil.news.sina.com. cn (November 13). It is believed that this is "very little".

    But their attention also turned to the Russian Su-57. Bloggers believe that the location of the internal compartments between the engine nacelles of the aircraft is not a good solution. Also, some of them believe that on the Su-57 these compartments may not exist at all, they are only indicated by pseudo-doors. "It may not even be quasi-stealth, but a pseudo-stealth plane," they write.
  27. Babur_Imperat
    Babur_Imperat 14 November 2018 05: 39
    +1
    They crush the power of production