Military Review

How to suppress the Izhevsk-Votkinsk uprising

157
100 years ago, 7 – 11 in November 1918, the Red Army took Izhevsk and Votkinsk, crushing a major uprising against the Bolsheviks in Prikamye.


5 November 1918, the Red Army launched an attack on Izhevsk, which for several months remained the center of a major uprising against the Bolsheviks. On November 7, the Reds went to storm Izhevsk and 8 took it. 11 November, the rebels surrendered in red "and the neighboring town of Votkinsk. The rebels, retreating from Kama, later fought with the Bolsheviks as part of the Izhevsk and Votkinsk divisions of the Russian army, Admiral A. V. Kolchak.

prehistory

The reasons for the Izhevsk-Votkinsk uprising were associated with the policies of the Bolsheviks, who acted without regard to local conditions. The workers of Izhevsk and Votkinsk, together with their families making up the majority of the population of these cities, belonged to a special type of Ural proletariat. They were based on hereditary personnel workers who, compared with visitors, were distinguished by higher qualifications and incomes. The general collapse of the traditional economy and the policy of "war communism" undermined their situation. In addition, in the region dominated by the party of Mensheviks and right-wing Socialist Revolutionaries. Their side was taken by the “Union of Frontline Soldiers” - the organization united soldiers and officers, and opposed the Soviet government.

The launch of 25 in May of 1918 along the Trans-Siberian highway of the Czechoslovak Corps and the anti-revolutionary organizations of the Volga region and Siberia (the whites) was the occasion for an uprising. 6 August 1918, Czechos and White took Kazan. On August 7, the Bolsheviks attempted to force the mobilization of Izhevsk workers into the Red Army, which became the immediate cause of the insurgency. The first unrest grew into an armed confrontation. On August 8, the Union of Front-line Soldiers revolted, and by evening the power passed to the restored Izhevsk Council of Workers' Deputies. 10 August 1918 The Council Executive Committee announced the formation of the Izhevsk People’s Army. Workers acted under the slogan; “Tips without the Bolsheviks!” August 17 Izhevtsy took Votkinsk (more in the article - "For the Soviets without the Bolsheviks"). The uprising was also supported by the neighboring peasants, irritated by the activities of the food detachments.

A feature of the Izhevsk-Votkinsk uprising was the presence in the hands of the rebels of a powerful industrial base in the form of the Izhevsk and Votkinsk factories. Izhevsk weapons the plant is one of three military factories (along with Tula and Sestroretsky) that supplied the Russian army with three-line Mosin rifles. The plant produced up to 2500 rifles per day. The Votkinsk plant produced shells for artillery guns (up to 2000 per day), and also engaged in the reservation of trains and ships at the plant. In addition, the factories produced bayonets, gun locks, individual parts for machine guns, cold steel, barbed wire was made. True, with cartridges the situation was bad. At the Izhevsk plant their stock was insignificant. Ammunition, guns and machine guns were obtained mainly in the battles of the Reds, like trophies. The military production base, as well as the presence at hand of a significant number of officers who had gone through the World War, military officials and soldiers, made it possible to initially begin to create not partisan detachments, but full-fledged regular armed units. As a result, the rebels were able to create quite combat-ready units, which in August 1918 inflicted a number of defeats in red.

By the beginning of September 1918, the rebels spread their influence over a vast area with a population of more than 1 million, which included part of the territories of the Vyatka and Perm provinces. The rebels defeated the most combat-ready units of the 2 Red Army and captured Sarapul, which led to a temporary disruption of the control of the Red Army troops in the Kama region front. Thus, a “state within a state” arose - with its territory and population, with its industry, agriculture, with its government (Prikamsky Komuch) and local governments (Soviets), with its efficient armed forces (Izhevsk and Votkinsk Folk Armies) .

Preparing for a decisive battle

September was held in the expansion of the area of ​​the uprising and skirmishes of the advanced units. In the north, the Vyatka-Perm railway was threatened by insurgents, where people from Izhevsk approached Glazov, and Votkinsk residents - to Art. Cap In the west, Izhevsk citizens and peasants who joined them approached the Vyatka River in the section of the cities of Malmyzh and Urzhum. In the east, the residents of Votkinsk were not far from the town of Okhansk, occupying at one time the large village of Sosnovskoye, and on the left bank of the Kama they fought near the town of Osa. To the east of its plant, the Votkintsy beyond Kama occupied some points where there were clashes with the left flank of the main front of the 3 Red Army (5 of the Ural Division of the Red Army). To the south of the plants, the city of Sarapul was taken, and further to the west, on the Kazan-Yekaterinburg railway line, the people of Izhevsk forced the Reds out of the station. Agryz, from which there was a branch to Izhevsk and Votkinsk.

In the meantime, the red command was taking active steps to crush the uprising. In the first battles, the Red troops, formed mainly from the local population, showed insecurity, low combat capability. At the first threat, the Reds quickly retreated or fled, throwing weapons and ammunition. They were assembled and armed again, and they fled again. Then the most combat-ready units made up of communists, Cheka detachments, and internationalists were sent from the center. Battalions and regiments began to be formed from previously broken units and detachments, as well as reinforcements arrived. So two consolidated regiments were formed, the third regiment was the 1-th Smolensk regiment, they formed the 1-th Consolidated Division. The command of the army took the former colonel of the imperial army Vasily Shorin. He spent a lot of work on the reorganization of the army. As a result, the 2 Red Army was restored and was given the task of crushing the uprising.

How to suppress the Izhevsk-Votkinsk uprising

Vasily Shorin, commander of the 2 Army of the Eastern Front

In addition, the Northern Front was formed from the forces of the 3 Red Army. The rebels could cut the railway Vyatka - Perm. Therefore, to combat them in Glazov formed a special Vyatka division. September 13 Izhevsk rebels launched an offensive in the north in the direction of the game and Cheptsu. After a hard fight the Reds were defeated and retreated to Zuru. Having taken the game, the rebels launched several attacks on Zuru, but did not succeed. The fighting in the Zura region continued until early October, when the people of Izhevsk again tried to attack with large forces, but were defeated. October 1 red surrounded and took the game, and by mid-October, continuing the offensive, entered Yakshur-Bodju - the last major settlement north of Izhevsk, located in 40 km from the city. After the arrival of reinforcements (7-th Latvian Rifle Regiment), the Vyatka division began to attack the Votkinsk direction and October 7 took the village of Sharkan - an important strategic point in the defense of Votkinsk. During the decisive offensive on Izhevsk, units of the Special Vyatka Division conducted a distracting offensive on Votkinsk, shackling the forces of the rebels and distracting them from the direction of the main attack.

After the Red Army recaptured Kazan on September 11, 1918, which led to the retreat of the White Volga Front, the Reds were able to liberate significant military forces and focus their efforts on the suppression of the Izhevsk-Votkinsk uprising. To strengthen the 2nd army, a detachment of V. Azin arrived. This detachment was reinforced with other units and reorganized into the 2nd Combined Division, which consisted of three infantry regiments, one cavalry and artillery brigade. By September 20, the division consisted of 1690 infantry, 450 cavalrymen and 9 guns, and was later reinforced. In late September, the Volga Red Army also came to the aid of the 2nd Army. flotilla Raskolnikov. On the railway, the Reds had armored trains. In mid-October, companies of emergency commissions were sent to the 2nd Army: Moscow, Tambov, Smolensk-Ryazan, Saratov and Nizhny Novgorod. The 6th combined regiment is formed from the Chekists. In addition, ready-made formed regiments arrive at the reinforcement: Karelian, Penza and Muslim. Thus, the 2nd Red Army was restored and seriously strengthened by reliable units, equipped with everything necessary. The preponderance of forces and the advantage in material supply went over to the Reds.

It is also worth noting that at this time there was a drop in the combat capability of the rebel forces. In the fall, an internal crisis began. As in other regions, disputes began between right-wing socialists and officers. The officers believed that a tough leader, a dictator, not affiliated with the party spirit, was needed. The right-wing socialists, in turn, were suspicious of the officers, fearing a military coup. As a result, conflicts constantly occurred between the civilian and military authorities of the rebels. Against the background of the internal crisis, propaganda of the Bolsheviks began to be felt. The workers were tired of the war, did not wait for the improvement of their position (it only got worse). The new power has disappointed them. The army had to abandon the voluntary principle, to introduce compulsory mobilization. The fall of discipline began, the decomposition of the rear, which affected the combat capability of the troops. In addition, the white terror began - the new authorities destroyed the Bolshevik leadership of Izhevsk. The same picture was observed later in Votkinsk, as well as in other factory towns and villages of Prikamye, where rebels took power. Bolsheviks and Red Army men, as well as their relatives were subjected to arrests. White repeatedly organized mass executions. As a result of repression and terror affected the general population. It is clear that this has alienated part of the population from whites, and sympathy for red has increased.

Reds go on the offensive

The restored 2 Red Army began a slow advance towards Izhevsk. From the area with. The Vyatskiye Polyany Reds moved in two ways: along the Kazan-Yekaterinburg railway and along the Vyatka and Kama rivers to Sarapul. By the end of September, the Reds reached Art. Agryz, from where there was a branch to Izhevsk - Votkinsk, and here the battles begin, which lasted all October. October 4 after heavy fighting division Azin managed to take the heavily fortified railway station Agryz. After the capture of Agryz, the Reds had the opportunity to establish a rail link with Vyatskiye Polyany, from where an armored train approached Azin and artillery was delivered. Going down on the ships on the river. Vyatka and moving up the Kama, October 5 Reds captured Sarapul. After the capture of Sarapul began preparations for the encirclement and the assault on Izhevsk. By October 30, Azin's 2 Combined Division had 4424 bayonets, 849 sabers, 27 guns and two armored trains.

Thus, by the beginning of October the offensive actions of the rebels, developing in the directions south of Izhevsk and north of Votkinsk, gradually fizzled out. The loss of Agryz and Sarapul forced the rebels to first go on the defensive, and from mid-October to begin a systematic reduction of heavily stretched fronts, withdrawing troops directly to Izhevsk and Votkinsk. One of the reasons for the defeat of Izhevtsy was the failure to establish cooperation with the troops of the first Volga People’s Army of Samara Komuch, and then of the Russian Army of the Provisional All-Russian Government (Directory) in Kazan, Ufa and Samara. Komuch and Directory were passive and immersed in internal quarrels. In the meantime, for the Izhevsk and Votkinsk people's armies, it was vital not only to get reinforcements, but also from the point of view of obtaining military supplies - primarily ammunition (ammunition and shells), in which an acute shortage was constantly being tested, and which had to be mined fight


Latvian arrows in the trenches near Izhevsk

To be continued ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
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How to create a volunteer army
How the battle for the Don began
"Your talk is not needed by the working people. The guard is tired!"
100 years of the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army and Navy
Who incited the Civil War
White fought for the interests of the West
Anti-Russian and anti-state white project
How "Ukrainian Chimera" incited the Civil War
How to create Ukraine and the "Ukrainian people"
How the red took Kiev
Victory of the Red Army on the Don
Bloody Battle of the Ice Campaign
How Kornilov stormed Ekaterinodar
Destined to die? Died with honor!
People against power
How Drozdovtsy broke through on the Don
How drozdovtsy stormed Rostov
Don Republic Ataman Krasnov
West helped the Bolsheviks?
Why did the West support both red and white?
Why do Czechoslovak murderers and looters erect monuments in Russia
Second Kuban campaign
Eastern Front Education
Why did they kill the Russian tsar?
Rise of the Left Social Revolutionaries and its weirdness
How white occupied the capital of Kuban
Bloody battle for Yekaterinodar
Kappelevtsy take Kazan
"For the Soviets without the Bolsheviks"
The landing of the British in Arkhangelsk. Formation of the Northern Front
The heroic campaign of the Taman army
Why tried to kill Lenin
Soviet republic turns into a military camp
How terror flooded Russia
The first battle for Tsaritsyn
Red Army beats off Kazan
Transcaucasian massacre
How the Caucasian Islamic Army stormed Baku
The second battle for Tsaritsyn
How the British tried to occupy Turkestan and the Caspian region
157 comments
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  1. Basil50
    Basil50 8 November 2018 06: 01
    +4
    The fact that * were * carried * to the masses by whites and others is akin to what * are * carried * today in Ukraine. It is not surprising that there were those who believed * the printed word * unconditionally. Among these were also those who fought with red banners in the ranks of Kolchak and Semenovites. The lumps were then hiding in China under the command of the Japanese.
    1. Basil50
      Basil50 8 November 2018 06: 52
      +13
      It’s not surprising that even today, * Leonid’s comment * MUST mention that * After the capture of Izhevsk, mass executions began, including of family members. ... *
      I read this in the appeals of the whites almost everywhere. I also saw posters where the Fighters of the Red Army were painted with horns, as well as with horns.
      They just didn’t write, but where did all sorts of different * dads * come from, where did bandits and raiders suddenly come from? It is amazing how affectionate the whites and their owners were the gentlemen of the whole shushera.
      Today it is fashionable about the Stalinist repressions and about * innocent victims * and other nonsense. But only if you start to be interested, and who actually * was repressed *? For what actually? Howl rises at once
      1. Mikhail Matyugin
        Mikhail Matyugin 10 November 2018 19: 27
        -1
        Quote: Vasily50
        Today it is fashionable about the Stalinist repressions and about * innocent victims * and other nonsense. But only if you start to be interested, and who actually * was repressed *? For what actually? Howl rises at once

        Again nonsense. Just go to one of the dozens of shooting ranges and wander silently through the remains of burials ...

        Quote: Vasily50
        I read this in the appeals of the whites almost everywhere. I also saw posters where the Fighters of the Red Army were painted with horns, as well as with horns.

        Unfortunately, the Red Army fighters themselves (more precisely, their leaders) chose a purely mystical, actually satanic from the point of view of Christians, symbol - the Pentacle / Pentagon as their emblem. And in the Civil War in Russia they became famous precisely for the genocide of Christians ...
        1. Mcar
          Mcar 12 November 2018 04: 55
          0
          Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
          Again nonsense. Just go to one of the dozens of shooting ranges and wander silently through the remains of burials ...

          And what will this fermentation "on the remains of burials" give? Somehow you can understand from these burials who is behind the cause in them, and who is innocent?

          Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
          Unfortunately, the Red Army fighters themselves (more precisely, their leaders) chose a purely mystical, actually satanic from the point of view of Christians, symbol - the Pentacle / Pentagon as their emblem.

          1. The emblem of Soviet power to the events described was already a hammer and sickle.
          2. Doesn't it cause regret that the "pentacle \ pentagon" was adorned with the shoulder straps of the tsarist army?
          3. If you are talking about an inverted star, which even got the Order of the Red Banner, then, as they say, the family has its black sheep. Quite quickly, all this Masonic symbolism was purged from both the army and the government.
    2. Lieutenant Teterin
      Lieutenant Teterin 8 November 2018 09: 40
      -7
      Quote: Vasily50
      * carried * to the masses whites and others akin to what * carry * today IN Ukraine.

      Rave, sir. White carried the idea of ​​law and order to the masses. The current Ukrainian radicals are infinitely far from this.
      1. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 8 November 2018 16: 18
        +6
        Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
        White carried the idea of ​​law and order to the masses

        That is how the masses understood them. WHAT legality and WHICH order they carry. The result is known.
      2. Looking for
        Looking for 8 November 2018 19: 16
        +1
        You are messing with Olga, a gopnik and others like yourself. Kontra is your nickname.
      3. naidas
        naidas 8 November 2018 22: 17
        +2
        Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
        Rave, sir. White carried the idea of ​​law and order to the masses.
        Kolchak at the beginning dealt with the Communists, and then took up the fighters of the white Izhevsk division, who refused to go with them further west, to Moscow. Rams were put together on Kama, and gallows were placed on them. Hanging the most active Izhevsk residents, Kolchakites launched rafts downstream of the Kama.
      4. Mcar
        Mcar 12 November 2018 05: 11
        0
        Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
        Rave, sir. White carried the idea of ​​law and order to the masses. The current Ukrainian radicals are infinitely far from this.

        Since when did terror come to be called "law and order"?
        https://felix-edmund.livejournal.com/569040.html
        https://felix-edmund.livejournal.com/559959.html
        https://felix-edmund.livejournal.com/562934.html
  2. LeonidL
    LeonidL 8 November 2018 06: 20
    -1
    A small addition: 1. For the first time, Yulian Semyonov wrote about the participation of workers in the White movement, under red flags and singing the International, in "No password needed", this paperback edition was published in scanty circulation in the "Young Guard", later this topic disappeared ... 2. Izhevsk and Votkinsk workers did not work in state-owned state factories, being the "elite" of the working class, they had much higher wages, normalized working hours, vacations and medical care, and pensions. had their own homes and household plots. This was strikingly different from the proletariat of private enterprises (which went to the Red Army), because there, quite naturally, the Mensheviks, Right Socialist Revolutionaries, etc. were popular. 3. After the capture of Izhevsk by the Red Army, mass executions began, including family members. ... 4. After the collapse of the Kalchakov front, and there the Izhevsk and Votkinskites (two brigades) were the backbone, the most reliable units, they marched first together with Kappel, and after his death under the command of his colonel, then the general (forgot his name, it seems Malchanov ) through Baikal to the territory controlled by the Japanese. They continued to fight until the very end of the White Movement, rejected very honorable (only three) offers of surrender, the commander of the troops of the Far Eastern Republic Blucher ... Most went to China, then emigrated to the United States. 5. In the 70s Izhevtsy and Votkintsy wrote and published at their own expense a very small edition of the book "Izhevtsy and Votkintsy". Those who wish can probably read it in a publication published in the Russian Federation. The original book from a public library in the United States was illegally exported to the Russian Federation and republished by some people. However, in this way the History of the Cossacks and several other editions were not very legally reissued. One way or another, but the book contains a lot of interesting and new material for reflection, about an inside look at the White Movement of the Urals and Siberia. By the way, General Makhrov and even General Shkuro wrote about the participation of highly qualified workers, the professional elite of the proletariat, on the side of the Whites in the Civil War in their "Notes of a White Partisan". Also very instructive and interesting materials. You can read about the collapse of the White movement in the book "The Collapse of the White Code", the book is available on the Lulu.com website in electronic and printed versions, well illustrated.
    1. sergo1914
      sergo1914 8 November 2018 08: 12
      +10
      Quote: LeonidL
      even General Shkuro in his "Notes of a White Partisan"


      A very worthy person. Do not remind me why he was hanged?
      PS I know what kind of neck. This refers to the sentence.
      1. Flavius
        Flavius 8 November 2018 08: 33
        -14
        Quote: sergo1914
        A very worthy person.

        Really worthy. Hero of WWI, shedding his blood for Russia.
        Quote: sergo1914
        Do not remind me why he was hanged?

        For the fact that he consistently and uncompromisingly fought Bolshevism since he crawled out into the world.
        PS: The verdict is false, since there was no betrayal of the homeland. Treason was on the part of Dzhugashvili and his friends - the gallows.
        1. Seamaster
          Seamaster 8 November 2018 11: 31
          +13
          Strange.
          My mother returned to Krasnodar immediately after the occupation.
          Cossack fighters with the Bolsheviks guarded the Jewish ghetto and raped young Jews, serviced the gas chamber (first used in Krasnodar).
          The Germans disdained to do this, entrusted it to the fighters against Bolshevism.
          Well, they allowed to remove a dress from strangled children, shoes and suits from adults.
          After all, it is necessary to stimulate the fight against Bolshevism.
          1. Flavius
            Flavius 8 November 2018 11: 37
            -15
            Quote: Seamaster
            served the gas chambers (first used in Krasnodar)

            It’s strange. There has recently been an article on the site claiming that the gas chamber was invented and first used by the Bolsheviks.
            And without any Cossacks.
            And how do you like such a kundshtuk -
            In the summer of 1941, they drove from the Baltic states a convoy of about 3000 people arrested - the color of the intelligentsia of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania: doctors, lawyers, professors, journalists, etc. For the most part, people are middle-aged, elderly or even old. The news of the start of the war and the swift German offensive caught the convoy at the stage. According to the order from above, all 3000 people were immediately killed by the convoy right on the campaign: they shot at them, they threw them with hand grenades, pricked with bayonets. Several people from the local population who were too curious about what was happening, were also killed by a convoy and buried along with the Baltic intelligentsia. The time of the tragedy, the method of murder, social and ethnicity were not in doubt. Excavations fully confirmed the stories of local peasants. With all those killed, their documents were preserved in a slightly damaged form.

            Mother didn’t tell anything about this?
            1. Seamaster
              Seamaster 8 November 2018 13: 16
              +13
              References to both of these facts, please.
              And then "there was somehow an article" and "stories of local peasants" - this is somehow not very good.
              And to kill 3000 people in an open field with "grenades, bayonets" (and they put their chests under the bayonets and happily caught the grenades thrown at them) - this inspires.
              Yes, and catch them (3000 !!!) all bury.
              And yet - going through the stage had documents with them !!!!!
              Flavius, who are you writing this to?
              Morons?
              So move on, don't serve here.
              Py.Sy. About where the gas chamber was first used - in the materials of the International Court of Justice in Nuremberg.
              1. Flavius
                Flavius 8 November 2018 13: 26
                -9
                Quote: Seamaster

                References to both of these facts, please.

                Well, I can also ask for a reference to your mom’s stories, right?
                It is possible that this was told by my distant relative before the occupation laughing
                Quote: Seamaster
                About where the gas chamber was first used - in the materials of the International Court of Justice in Nuremberg.

                And for the first time, who used gases against their citizens? Anglo-Saxons versus Indians? No - the Bolsheviks.
                The tribunal simply did not know that
                The author of the Soviet "Gazenvagen" was the head of the administrative department of the NKVD Directorate for the Moscow Region, Isai Davidovich Berg.
                ..
                With his participation, cars were created, the so-called gas chambers of the NKVD of the USSR. They disguised themselves as grain wagons. On average, they accommodated 20-30, and sometimes 50 "enemies of the people." They were designed in this way: the exhaust pipe turned inside the van, and on the way to the Soviet death camp, people were poisoned with gas. Before being thrown into the car, those sentenced to be shot were stripped naked, tied up, gagged

                And if he knew, then he would not say.
                Well this is a well-known fact, in vain you are unlocking.
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 8 November 2018 15: 33
                  +5
                  Quote: Flavius
                  And for the first time, who used gases against their citizens? Anglo-Saxons versus Indians? No - the Bolsheviks.

                  Is not a fact. White gases were also used against their citizens with might and main. Who was the first is unknown, because it was in the spirit of the times.
                  1. Flavius
                    Flavius 8 November 2018 16: 13
                    -8
                    Quote: Sugar Honeyovich

                    Is not a fact. White gases were also used against their citizens with might and main. Who was the first is unknown, because it was in the spirit of the times.

                    Not the fact that you do not take money from the elderly in elevators. After all, it is in the spirit of the times. And it will become famous only when you are caught.
                    Here are the Reds caught. And now it is a fact.
                    1. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich 8 November 2018 16: 59
                      +1
                      So white has long been caught. Also a fact. That one of them is the first - not a fact. Just like not the fact that you are not molesting minors.
                      1. Flavius
                        Flavius 8 November 2018 17: 27
                        -7
                        Caught in what they poisoned the peasants with gases before Tukhachevsky? Well, let's give your fact, otherwise drive the blizzard in vain.
                      2. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 8 November 2018 18: 39
                        0
                        If you are talking about Tambov - yes, before. Back in April 1919, so Stolypin writes in his diary. And besides: https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1186910.html
                      3. Flavius
                        Flavius 8 November 2018 21: 42
                        -5
                        An interesting selection. Thank you, "comrade" wink
                        Judging by the above facts, they used it mutually and universally. And who was there first was impossible to establish.
                        The vast majority of cases of use are the army against the army in the midst of a brutal war. Which is understandable and acceptable.
                        In 21, the Bolsheviks were engaged in terror in the Tambov province, when there was no sense in severe measures - the Russian Army had already been evacuated from Crimea for six months. Everything was clear and understandable - the White Deed is lost, and the state of passion here does not work as an excuse ..
                      4. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 9 November 2018 04: 09
                        -1
                        So I’ve talked about this - it was in the spirit of the times. The same with the Tambov region - the continuation of the civil war and nothing more. Moreover, we now know that the civil war in 1921 was coming to an end, and then this was not fully guaranteed.
                      5. Flavius
                        Flavius 9 November 2018 07: 31
                        -2
                        I agree with you. Usually you are lying all the time, but here they even said something digestible laughing Very worthy
                      6. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 9 November 2018 11: 28
                        +3
                        You're constantly lying. And even more rude. But I do not need this to win the discussion - there is enough knowledge.
                      7. Flavius
                        Flavius 9 November 2018 19: 47
                        0
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        You're constantly lying. And even more rude. But I do not need this to win the discussion - there is enough knowledge.

                        Is it not you who recently announced the massacres of children in old Russia? And on my request about the sources of this information, you have cited an excerpt from the art book of Leo Tolstoy lol
                        This is not knowledge, my friend, but rabid lies and rubbing glasses.
                      8. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 10 November 2018 05: 47
                        +2
                        I also cited a documentary book by Semenova-Tyan-Shanskaya. But your position is understandable: "If facts contradict my convictions, so much the worse for facts." The position is, of course, comfortable, but with it you will be an eternal loser.
                      9. Mcar
                        Mcar 12 November 2018 07: 02
                        0
                        Quote: Flavius
                        And on my request about the sources of this information, you have cited an excerpt from the art book of Leo Tolstoy

                        The diary is not a work of art. This is, in fact, evidence. Yes, they are not always accurate and often reflect more an emotional component than a factual one. But, nevertheless, they give an idea of ​​certain events.
                        http://vimstory.blogspot.com/2017/05/blog-post_76.html

                        Quote: Flavius
                        Is it not you who recently announced the massacres of children in old Russia?

                        If you imagine it in an idiotic way, they shot, strangled, cut, etc., then there is no question of any "mass murders of children". There were massacres of adults, and specifically children - no.
                        However, if we take a sober look at what is happening in tsarist Russia, then there is genocide. Namely, almost 60% of children did not live to be 6 years old, and only 16% survived to 45. And this did not bother either the kings or the tsarist officials. Even scanty attempts to help the starving were, as always, made through (censorship).

                        If you need data and sources on child mortality, then I ask here (there is a very large comment, so as not to flood):
                        https://topwar.ru/148733-o-stoimosti-tanka-t-34-i-jeffektivnosti-sovetskoj-promyshlenno-jekonomicheskoj-sistemy-v-gody-vojny.html#comment-id-8723551
                      10. Consultant
                        Consultant 12 November 2018 07: 26
                        -2
                        Quote: McAr
                        almost 60% of children did not live to be 6 years old, and only 16% survived to 45

                        60 + 45 = 105%. And "almost 60" + 45 = "almost 105%". Fun math laughing
                      11. Mcar
                        Mcar 12 November 2018 07: 29
                        -3
                        Quote: Consultant
                        60 + 45 = 105%. And "almost 60" + 45 = "almost 105%". Fun math

                        Russian native? What about arabic? There are NUMBERS. Two - 6 and 16.

                        Well, why the parents of nerds did not know about contraceptives?
                      12. Consultant
                        Consultant 12 November 2018 07: 33
                        -2
                        Quote: McAr
                        There are NUMBERS. Two - 6 and 16

                        Uh-huh.

                        We take the number of births as 100%, no objection? Of these, up to 6 survive (100 - "almost 60" = "almost 40"). Where do the confident 45% who live to 16, I personally do not understand.

                        And you? wink
                      13. Mcar
                        Mcar 12 November 2018 07: 35
                        -2
                        Quote: Consultant
                        We take the number of births as 100%, no objection? Of these, 6 survive to 100 - "almost 60" = "almost 40". Where the confident 45% who lived to 16 come from is not clear to me personally.

                        What do you take it to the doctor.

                        For 1908-1910 per 1000 dead:

                        Children under 1 year - 381,1;
                        Children from 1 to 5 years old - 204,9;
                        Total up to 5 years: 586 or 58,6%
                        Children from 5 to 10 years old - 47,9;
                        Children from 10 to 15 years old - 19,6.
                        Total up to 15 years: 653,5 or 65%
                        Source - “Population Movement in European Russia for 1908, 1909 and 1910.”, data published by A.G. Rashina “The population of Russia for 100 years. 1811-1913. "
                      14. Consultant
                        Consultant 12 November 2018 07: 38
                        -2
                        Quote: McAr
                        Total up to 15 years: 653,5 or 65%

                        100 - 65 = 35. But not 45.

                        Quote: McAr
                        only 16% survived to 45

                        You have problems with elementary mathematics.

                        Quote: McAr
                        why the parents of nerds did not know about contraceptives?

                        And with education too.
                      15. Mcar
                        Mcar 12 November 2018 07: 41
                        -6
                        Quote: Consultant
                        You have problems with elementary mathematics.

                        Oh well.
                        This is what the enemies of the people do and the pests - they inflate from the fly of an elephant.
                        Educated people realized that a typo. And only lovers of a bun with poppy seeds to declare poppy straws find food for discussion.
                      16. Consultant
                        Consultant 12 November 2018 07: 44
                        -2
                        Quote: McAr
                        This is what the enemies of the people do and the pests - they inflate from the fly of an elephant

                        I repeat - you have problems with education.

                        Quote: McAr
                        Educated people realized that a typo

                        The next time you blurt out such bloopers, immediately write that this is for "educated people." Well, or for poor students laughing
                      17. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 8 November 2018 22: 45
                        +7
                        Flavius ​​"Well, let’s give your fact, otherwise drive the snowstorm in vain." ................................... ... SPECIALLY FOR YOU ,,,,,,, But the Whites used poisonous substances against the Reds and did not bother.))) The Whites used 684 shells.))) In the battles near Beloretsk and Verkhneuralsk.
                        Orenburg Cossacks and Czechoslovakians in the Urals in the summer of 1918 / Publ. A.V. Ganina // White Army. White business. Historical popular science almanac. Yekaterinburg. 2002. No. 11. S. 19-27.
                        Link Ganina A., to the magazine of military operations of the 3 Orenburg Cossack artillery division. For the period from May 28 to October 1, 1918.
                        RGVA. Fund 39613, Op.1.D.1.L.1-8. THIS DATA IS WHITE.
                      18. Flavius
                        Flavius 9 November 2018 07: 33
                        -9
                        And they did right what they used against the red-bellied. Legal authority must be protected in every way.
                      19. sergo1914
                        sergo1914 9 November 2018 07: 49
                        +6
                        Quote: Flavius
                        And they did right what they used against the red-bellied. Legal authority must be protected in every way.


                        Bandera, or what? What about us?
                      20. LeonidL
                        LeonidL 10 November 2018 04: 50
                        +2
                        Not Bandera - Vlasov!
                      21. The comment was deleted.
                      22. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 9 November 2018 11: 29
                        +3
                        Reds acted even more correctly. Whoever fights for the good of the people should not stand on ceremony with the evil people.
                      23. Flavius
                        Flavius 9 November 2018 11: 42
                        -3
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Who is fighting for the good of the people

                        Well, they fought for the good and what did they give out?
                        Can this be good?
                        In the Brockhaus Encyclopedia (2006), the number of victims of hunger is estimated to be in the range of 4 to 7 million. [40]
                        ... After the crop failures of 1931 and 1932, it was carried out, often with the use of troops, the seizure of grain reserves from the peasants. At the same time, from 4 to 7 million people died from hunger.

                        And 27 million who died in the Second World War, who could not protect the state - got the benefit?
                        So maybe it was better to gas these benefactors immediately?
                      24. LeonidL
                        LeonidL 10 November 2018 04: 51
                        +1
                        Not only is he a Vlasovite, he is also a storyteller!
                      25. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 10 November 2018 07: 59
                        +1
                        LeonidL "Not only is he a Vlasovite, he is also a storyteller!"
                        He is an ordinary liberoid. And in his head there is porridge.))) Active such a troll.)))
                      26. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 10 November 2018 07: 40
                        -1
                        But in the eyes of his contemporaries, “these benefactors” were always better than others. That in 1918-22, that in 1941-44, that after 1991 to the present day. They say that once is an accident, two is a coincidence, three is already a system ...
                        And about the 27 million that the state could not protect - compared to how others defended their compatriots in that war, "these" will seem to be the standard of reliability ...
                      27. Laurus
                        Laurus 9 November 2018 12: 11
                        +5
                        And why did the whites suddenly turn out to be the legitimate power? Did someone choose them, authorize them for something? No, I think. The angry self-proclaimed adventurers raised an armed mutiny in the belligerent country (and the RSFSR was at war with Germany at the beginning of the civil war), and, moreover, they turned to Germany for help (Krasnov). And then they stood under the banner of the self-styled "Supreme Ruler of Russia" by the English agent Kolchak, who let the invaders into the country.
                      28. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 9 November 2018 16: 57
                        0
                        You are a very stubborn sir.)))
                      29. LeonidL
                        LeonidL 10 November 2018 04: 50
                        0
                        This word of power in Russia has not become fully legitimate since the February revolution provoked by the allies, mainly the British. The temporary oversight was as illegitimate as the Bolsheviks at first. The Bolsheviks became legitimate "de facto" and only then "de jure", which it happily remained until 1991. All other "governments" on the territory of the Russian Empire were created and disintegrated without any legal basis.
                  2. Mikhail Matyugin
                    Mikhail Matyugin 10 November 2018 19: 29
                    0
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    Is not a fact. White gases were also used against their citizens with might and main

                    You don’t need to talk nonsense.
                    1. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich 11 November 2018 05: 07
                      0
                      I agree - do not. Therefore, I do not say it. And I offer you the same.
                2. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 8 November 2018 15: 43
                  +4
                  Quote: Flavius
                  Well this is a well-known fact, in vain you are unlocking.

                  All this known fact rests on the German historian Hoffmann, who refers:
                  “Gas chambers like those in
                  Auschwitz, have been operating in Vorkuta since 1938, ”wrote the British historian Count Tolstoy in his
                  Victims of Yalta. 21 That, therefore, was no longer a secret in itself
                  itself, was once again confirmed in 1997 by a former KGB officer as part of a discussion in France on
                  about the Black Book of Communism published by Stephen Courtois.
                  22 To boundless surprise
                  of the French television public, this former KGB officer said, “that the Gulag used
                  gas truck trucks »
                  But the Black Book of Communism,
                  comparable in this respect with the “Gulag Archipelago” by Alexander Solzhenitsyn and also received
                  a short time, an unprecedented distribution, is a genuine encyclopedia
                  the criminal activity of communism against humanity and thereby casts a ray of light into the spiritual
                  the confusion of the ending century.

                  That's all your "facts". Stage from the Baltics, also from this series.
                  1. Flavius
                    Flavius 8 November 2018 15: 57
                    -5
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    All this known fact rests on the German historian Hoffmann

                    And who should it rest against - a document published in the Pravda newspaper with Stalin's signature? This is not and cannot be - killers usually disguise their actions.
                    Therefore, Hoffmann or Zimmerman - this is enough.
                    The presence of German gas chambers, too, you know, is based on hardly a dozen witnesses with Jewish surnames, who “miraculously” survived there or heard something out of the way.
                    We will approach everything fairly - with one measure.
                    1. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 8 November 2018 19: 03
                      +4
                      Quote: Flavius
                      We will approach everything fairly - with one measure.

                      Soon, it seems, they will write about the Nazi liberation army. Here are the documents from the Nuremberg Process:
                      In Krasnodar, about 6 civilians were killed by gas poisoning in "gas chambers" or were tortured and executed.

                      Next:
                      We, the representatives of the Western world, have heard of murderers in which they strangled Jews and political opponents. We could not believe it. But here we have the report of the German SS officer Becker on May 16, 1942 to his boss in Berlin, which tells the following story (document No. 656-PS):

                      “Group C gas vehicles can reach the execution site, which is usually 10-15 km from the main road, only in dry weather. In view of the fact that those who are to be executed begin to rage when they are taken there, these cars fail in wet weather ”(letter, p. 1).

                      “The Group D gas cars were disguised as trailers, but they were well known to the authorities and the civilian population, who called them“ gas chambers ”(letter, p. 2).
                      1. Flavius
                        Flavius 8 November 2018 21: 51
                        -2
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        Here are the documents from the Nuremberg Process

                        The USSR was not judged in this process. And here is Nuremberg? There, if desired, they would hang on the Germans the blame for the extermination of the Aztecs.
                        Jews from England, America and the USSR gathered. Temporarily set aside their minor differences and slaughtered the sacrificial sheep. It is clear that far from an innocent sheep, but still.
                        The above documents prove that Isai Berg did not invent murderers? No - they cannot prove it.
                        Well, there’s nothing to talk about.
                      2. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 8 November 2018 22: 02
                        +1
                        Quote: Flavius
                        The USSR was not judged in this process. And here is Nuremberg?

                        Quote: Flavius
                        The presence of German gas chambers, too, you know, is based on hardly a dozen witnesses with Jewish surnames, who “miraculously” survived there or heard something out of the way.

                        Is this your statement?
                        Quote: Flavius
                        The above documents prove that Isai Berg did not invent murderers?
                        And I do not claim that he invented something there, but quite the opposite. It is you who must provide the documents that Berg invented the gas chamber, since you insist on it. I brought my evidence.
                        Quote: Flavius
                        Well, there’s nothing to talk about

                        Merged?
                      3. Flavius
                        Flavius 9 November 2018 08: 45
                        -4
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        I brought my evidence.

                        What evidence is there that the Germans used murderers? So I have not denied this anywhere. I said that evidence of this unsteady.
                        I repeat, the Nuremberg trials are bullshit, where testimony from the defendants was obtained by beatings and torture. The crimes of the Allies were hushed up, and the crimes of the Soviets were transferred to the Germans. As with Katyn.
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        It is you who must provide the documents that Berg invented the gas chamber

                        So there are no documents. The Bolsheviks massively killed people since 1917, then they killed those who killed, and so on in a circle. Thus in 1939 both Berg and the ends banged into the water.
                        The death of people from executions, beatings, hunger was reported as death from cardiac arrest, etc. Therefore, proving something is extremely difficult.
                        But we have something:
                        E. Zhirnov:
                        In 1990, they showed me the investigation file of Isay Berg, the head of the administrative and economic department of the NKVD of the Moscow region, arrested in 1937, which said:
                        "Berg was then the head of the operational group for the execution of the decisions of the troika of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. With his participation, cars were created, the so-called gas chambers. In these cars, arrested persons sentenced to death were transported, and on the way to the place of execution they were gassed. admitted that he organized the execution of sentences with the use of a car (gas chamber), explaining this by the fact that he followed the instructions of the leadership of the NKVD Ministry of Defense and that without them it would have been impossible to carry out such a large number of executions, to which the arrested were sentenced to three triplets at the same time. During the interrogations of Berg and from the conversations that circulated among the officers of the UNKVD of the Ministry of Defense, it was known that the procedure for bringing sentences organized by Berg was disgusting: those sentenced to execution were stripped naked, tied up, gagged and thrown into a car. plundered. "


                        “The NKVD from the inside. Notes of the Chekist ”, Mikhail Pavlovich Schreider.

                        ..from one of the officers who accompanied this group of those sentenced to death, that the sentence has already been carried out. Moreover, he said that when the closed car arrived at the place of execution, all the convicts were dragged out of the cars almost in an unconscious state. On the way, they were stupefied and almost poisoned by exhaust gases specially allocated through a special wire to a closed truck body. ”


                        Grigorenko "Only rats can be found underground"
                        After a while, the "black raven" came up. The door in the building opened, and the guards drove people into the open doors of the car. I counted 27 people - then I forgot to count, I wanted to understand what kind of people they were and why they were stuffed into the “funnel”, standing close to each other. Finally, they closed the doors, clutching their shoulders, and the car drove off. I wanted to move away, but the prisoner who called me said: “Wait. They will be back soon. ” And they really came back very quickly.

                        When the doors were opened, black smoke poured out and corpses of people rained down. The guards pulled out those that didn’t fall out ... Then all the corpses were lowered into the basement hatch, which I had not noticed before. Almost a week we watched such a picture. That corps was called "kulak." Yes, and the clothes showed that they were peasants.


                        Valentine Taras. The famous Belarusian writer, poet, publicist, during the years of the war with Nazi Germany, he fought in the partisan detachment:
                        “The family of one of the brigade special officers (I don’t remember my last name) lived in Brest, and one of the locals informed the Germans that this was the family of a NKVD worker. And the whole family was shot. Having learned about this, the special agent got drunk with grief, walked around all the brigade dugouts, cried, beat himself in the chest and asked everyone who came in his way: “Have you ever seen a security officer cry? I never cried! I shot people in the back of the head - and did not cry! I pushed people into the gas chamber - and did not cry! And today I am crying! My family was killed! Mother, wife, children! ... Reptiles! Beasts! ... "

                        Of course, the grief of this man was terrible, unbearable and hurt everyone! But my friend Stepka was also horrified by his words about shots in the back of the head and murderers. Do we have murderers? This is the Nazis murderers! The Nazis are shooting at the back of the head! Maybe he is raving with grief?

                        Stepka and I were simply taken aback by what we heard and went into the dugout by the head of the printing house of the underground party regional committee and began to question him, how could this be - what the special agent shouted? The head of the printing house was puzzled by such a question and began excitedly and quickly telling us that he had just had this special officer, and he didn’t say anything like that, and we all came up with this.

                        And, looking away, he began to explain to us that the party had many enemies before, that before the war the country was teeming with German agents and spies and it was necessary to destroy them by all means as quickly as possible ... ”


                        It seems to be quite enough evidence. If someday the process of decommunization in Russia is carried out, then there will be much more. But this is hardly possible, since such a process will shock the moral principles of our frail society today.
                      4. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 9 November 2018 09: 15
                        +4
                        Quote: Flavius
                        It seems to be quite enough evidence

                        This is not evidence.
                        Quote: Flavius
                        I repeat, the Nuremberg trials are bullshit, where testimony from the defendants was obtained by beatings and torture. The crimes of the Allies were hushed up, and the crimes of the Soviets were transferred to the Germans. As with Katyn.

                        fool Well yes. And dohtur Mengel was a Soviet intelligence agent.
                      5. Flavius
                        Flavius 9 November 2018 09: 20
                        -1
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        This is not evidence.

                        Naturally - they all lie. And not only the Central Committee of the CPSU is lying.
                        Why do you not testify Schreider - an employee of the Cheka-OGPU-NKVD?
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        Well yes. And dohtur Mengel was a Soviet intelligence agent.

                        Smack nonsense, dear Mordvin laughing
                      6. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 9 November 2018 09: 39
                        +2
                        Quote: Flavius
                        Naturally - they all lie. And not only the Central Committee of the CPSU is lying.
                        Why do you not testify Schreider - an employee of the Cheka-OGPU-NKVD?

                        They are not suited to the fact that not a single court will take this into account.
                        Quote: Flavius
                        Smack nonsense

                        That you smack nonsense, here it is.
                        Quote: Flavius
                        Crimes of the Soviets were passed on to the Germans.

                        Quote: Flavius
                        If someday the process of decommunization in Russia is carried out, then there will be much more.

                        Go ahead, find a new CIA agent Yakovlev, let Babi Yar dump the Soviets. Gundyaev to the rescue. Adieu, tired of it.
                      7. The comment was deleted.
                      8. Flavius
                        Flavius 9 November 2018 11: 11
                        -3
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        . And dohtur Mengel was a Soviet intelligence

                        But by the way, he could easily recognize himself as such if necessary.
                        Take a look at your leisure
                        The officers of the SS Division "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" were beaten with whips to such an extent that they were covered in blood, after which they stepped on their genitals while they were lying on the floor. In Malmedy courts, interrogators were hung and beaten until they signed confessions. On the basis of these "confessions" knocked out of General Sepp Dietrich and Joachimm Paiper, the Leibstandarte division was denounced as a "criminal organization" even though it was a normal front-line division.


                        During preliminary interrogation, Kempner told Gauss that he would hand him over to the Soviet side for the death penalty by hanging. Gaus with tears begged Kempner to think about his wife and children. Kempner replied that he can only save himself if he testifies in court against his former colleagues. After four weeks in solitary confinement, Gaus desperately agreed. When Maggi finished reading this document, Gaus was sitting completely devastated, covering his face with his hands. 81 Former SS Captain Konrad Morgen has been repeatedly beaten by American soldiers in an unsuccessful attempt to force him to testify in writing against Ilse Koch, indicted in the 1947 US military "Buchenwald" trial. American officials also threatened to extradite Morgen to the Soviet side unless he signed false statements. 82 A U.S. Army major warned Luftwaffe General-Field Marshal Erhard Milch to stop testifying in favor of Hermann Goering at the main Nuremberg Trials. The American officer said that if he did not, he would be charged as a war criminal, whether he was guilty or not.


                        The case of Gustav Petrat, a German who served as a guard at Mauthausen, is not unusual. After repeated brutal beatings, he was broken and signed a perjury. He was also beaten with a whip, and threatened that they would shoot him now. Petrat was deprived of the opportunity to present in his defense any evidence justifying him; even possible defense witnesses were beaten and threatened to prevent them from testifying in his favor


                        Former Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoss was tortured by British investigators into signing a false self-incriminating "confession" that was then widely cited as a key document in Holocaust extermination theory.


                        So the tribunal is another "organ". Not far from the "fairest" Soviet court.
                      9. Mcar
                        Mcar 12 November 2018 07: 18
                        0
                        Quote: Flavius
                        Crimes of the Soviets were passed on to the Germans. As with Katyn.

                        Maybe the Goebbels lie about Katyn is enough to repeat?
                        Katyn villainy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK3fmBh4uzQ
                3. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak 8 November 2018 22: 35
                  +3
                  Flavius ​​"And who used gases against their citizens for the first time? The Anglo-Saxons against the Indians? No - the Bolsheviks." White gases were used first. It was in Beloretsk.
                4. Laurus
                  Laurus 9 November 2018 12: 07
                  +6
                  Again, the White Guards-Vlasovites, to put it mildly, do not finish.
                  At that time, gas attacks were carried out in two ways: by spraying gas from cylinders or by shelling the territory with chemical shells containing gas.
                  So - “cylinders with toxic gases”, at the disposal of the Tambov command simply was not. I had to contact Moscow for help. The military leadership was very skeptical of the proposal to conduct gas attacks against the Tambov rebels, but allocated 250 balloons. However, upon the arrival of the necessary ammunition, another circumstance became clear: the only unit in the Tambov region capable of carrying out gas attacks - the 1st Separate Chemical Company - was absolutely not ready for such a task. Here is how the local command assessed her condition: "... lack of command personnel and uniforms, no training sessions are held, people are completely untrained, and the chemical workplace in relation to gas fighting is absolutely unprepared and not combat ready."
                  The result - there was no one to carry out gas-balloon attacks in the Tambov province, so this option of fighting rebels fell away by itself.
                  However, at the disposal of Tukhachevsky there were still chemical shells, which were also sent from Moscow in the amount of 2000 pieces. It was easier to use them - they were ordinary shells, only stuffed with gas. And trained artillery units, unlike chemical ones, were at the disposal of Tukhachevsky.
                  In reality, only one attempt was made to conduct a full-fledged gas attack. It was an operation to clean up the Parevsky forest of rebels, which took place from August 1 to 10, 1921.
                  At the very beginning of the operation, on August 2, 1921, the red artillery fired 59 chemical shells on the island of Suchie Dubki, where, according to the information available to the Soviet command, the leader of the rebel Antonov was hiding. After that, the Soviet units combed the island. The only thing they found there was three horses tied to trees.
                  Either the Antonovites managed to get out of the shelling, or they were not there at all on the island, but the rebels did not suffer any losses from this bombardment. The only trophies of the Reds were these horses, by the way, successfully survived the "gas attack". This is not surprising: in order to create a toxic cloud of the required concentration, 59 chemical shells were not enough.
                  In addition to this unsuccessful attempt to smoke bandits from the forest, two more cases of spontaneous use of red chemical shells in the fight against Tambov rebels were recorded.
                  The first episode occurred on the night of July 12-13, 1921 in a battle with the Antonovites near the village of Smolnaya Vershina. Parts of the Red Army fired 15 chemical shells at the enemy. The reason for firing chemical shells, most likely, was the curiosity of the red gunners: they wanted to see how effective the new ammunition was. The result of this shooting was zero - to create a deadly cloud, it was necessary to release tens of times more shells.
                  A similar situation was in the second case. On July 14, 1921, a horse-drawn battery fired at a forest south of Lake Ilmen. 50 chemical shells were fired in the forest. It can be asserted almost certainly that the specified shelling did not bring any results - since this fact was not considered necessary even to be recorded in operational reports, where information was recorded about all at least any significant military operations.
                  Thus, in the entire history of the suppression of the Tambov uprising, only three cases of gas use by the red forces can be counted. In all these cases, the result of this use was zero: the rebels did not suffer any losses from gas attacks.

                  As for the gas chambers, I simply have no desire to discuss the delusional opus from Ogonyok, which was not thrown into the trash and accidentally found in the attic.
                  Novodvorskaya once declared that there was a huge meat grinder in the basement on Lubyanka, in which innocent enemies of the people were grinded alive. Will we also discuss this in all seriousness?
            2. Hantengri
              Hantengri 8 November 2018 13: 43
              +2
              Quote: Flavius
              Mother didn’t tell anything about this?

              And you Flavius (Alexander) (and why not Joseph? Strange ... laughing ) Mom, in childhood, did not learn to refer to the author when using quotes?
              1. Flavius
                Flavius 8 November 2018 13: 47
                -4
                Quote: HanTengri
                why not Joseph?

                Even if Joseph is something - do you have something against Dzhugashvili? There are good suspicions that he is a relative of Bronstein?
                Well, you bring, and we will consider lol
                1. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 8 November 2018 14: 38
                  0
                  What is there to bring? That Joseph, who Dzhugashvili - is either Georgian, or Ossetian. And, here, that Josephus, which Flavius ​​- definitely, yet - yes! lol
                  1. Flavius
                    Flavius 8 November 2018 14: 44
                    -1
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    And now, that Josephus, which Flavius ​​is definitely, yes!

                    You do not know, it seems that Flavius ​​is the generic name of the Roman emperors.
                    And drag the Jews to you.
                    1. Hantengri
                      Hantengri 8 November 2018 16: 18
                      +5
                      Quote: Flavius
                      You do not know, it seems that Flavius ​​is the generic name of the Roman emperors.
                      And drag the Jews to you.

                      And their freedmen too. Here, Vespasian freed his servant Joseph, and he, you bastard, take and write "The Jewish War", "Jewish Antiquities", yes, on trifles, everyone ... And he signed, you bastard, with the name Flavius! He remembered, in general ... And where is now the Orthodox Nazi to go! lol laughing
                      1. Flavius
                        Flavius 8 November 2018 17: 31
                        -2
                        Yes, even Joseph to me, even Moses - all good people. So you do not worry so much.
                      2. Mikhail Matyugin
                        Mikhail Matyugin 10 November 2018 19: 34
                        +2
                        Quote: HanTengri
                        And their freedmen too. Here, Vespasian freed his servant Joseph, and he, you bastard, take and write "The Jewish War", "Jewish Antiquities", yes, on trifles, everyone ... And he signed, you bastard, with the name Flavius!

                        Well, actually, his real name was Yosef ben Matiyyahu.
            3. LeonidL
              LeonidL 9 November 2018 02: 53
              +1
              My friends are immigrants from Lithuania, but I think that it was similar in Latvia and Estonia, and it was thanks to the deportation that they survived and returned to Lithuania. so fairy tales about how the convoy killed 3000, and they stood and did not run up ... no need la-la. They were not deported on foot, but in trains, without comfort, but they reached Siberia. And the elite was killed, for example, in Lviv by Ukrainian Nazis under the supervision of German masters. and in Lithuania, in Estonia, in Latvia, they frolic so much that there was no more ash from the scientific and other elites.
              1. Flavius
                Flavius 9 November 2018 09: 01
                -2
                Quote: LeonidL
                and so it was thanks to deportation that they survived and returned to Lithuania

                Those. if you are now easily sent to some Mordovian colony, you won’t complain, as I understand it? It may well turn out in the future that she will save you from anything.
                You can even survive because of this.
                1. LeonidL
                  LeonidL 10 November 2018 04: 57
                  +1
                  You, gentleman, are good, get into any discussion with the grace of a certain worm-like organism that parasitizes inside a person. I wish you, dear sir, success in the field.
                  1. Flavius
                    Flavius 10 November 2018 10: 15
                    -1
                    You calmly declare that deportation was a blessing for the Balts. It is quite reasonable to suggest that you also go to the Far North to the tundra - what do you dislike?
                    Perhaps this will save you from alcoholism or drug addiction))
                    Well, you must decide for others how best they are, well, so I’ll decide for you.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                      1. Flavius
                        Flavius 11 November 2018 12: 40
                        -1
                        Quote: LeonidL

                        You, baby, love to juggle and speak for others

                        Eh, uncle, uncle, I have not been a kid for a long time, but a dzhigit in full bloom.
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        otherwise they would have been destroyed

                        Otherwise, they would very likely join the Waffen-SS and take revenge on the Reds for occupation and robberies.
                      2. The comment was deleted.
                      3. Flavius
                        Flavius 12 November 2018 08: 20
                        0
                        Uncle, your grandfather was a traitor who betrayed the oath. What can I talk about with you further, if you most likely have a similar upbringing. Your friends are probably of the same berry field. Go rob the loot.
                      4. The comment was deleted.
                      5. Flavius
                        Flavius 13 November 2018 07: 38
                        -1
                        Uncle, I'm generally completely calm laughing It’s a pity only your grandfather, for sure he was a good man, but he got on a bad path. You pray for him more often, but order funeral services.
                      6. The comment was deleted.
                      7. Flavius
                        Flavius 14 November 2018 08: 16
                        0
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        Pray for the doctor’s health that your mother didn’t have an abortion

                        Oh yeah I look and don't be friends with my head at all, uncle smile But I, as a Christian, do not hold evil at you and willingly forgive love
                      8. The comment was deleted.
                      9. Flavius
                        Flavius 20 November 2018 08: 24
                        -1
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        Express your messages

                        The princes write - "expound". And you probably learned to write in toilets smile And you are not a prince, but a typical tradesman with shallow thinking and lack of education.
                        I feel sorry for you from the heart crying
                      10. The comment was deleted.
            4. naidas
              naidas 9 November 2018 18: 18
              0
              It was written in samizdat, it is not clear who, and some sites were reprinted.
              As an example, Littlelife refers to samizdat without an author.
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 8 November 2018 14: 11
          +5
          Quote: Flavius
          Really worthy. Hero of WWI, shedding his blood for Russia.

          As well as the SS gruppenfuhrer and the lieutenant general of the SS troops. Truly a worthy person.
          Quote: Flavius
          For the fact that he consistently and uncompromisingly fought Bolshevism since he crawled out into the world.

          Yeah ... in Yugoslavia. For some reason, the 15th Cossack cavalry corps of the SS preferred to fight against Bolshevism there.
          1. Flavius
            Flavius 8 November 2018 14: 15
            -8
            Quote: Alexey RA
            As well as the SS gruppenfuhrer and the lieutenant general of the SS troops

            He was not the first to ride in wagons on the territory of enemy Germany and take money from the Japanese and Germans to destroy Russia.
            Therefore, we will not strictly judge the hero. Everyone should have slight weaknesses.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 8 November 2018 14: 32
              +5
              Quote: Flavius

              He was not the first to ride in wagons on the territory of enemy Germany and take money from the Japanese and Germans to destroy Russia.

              Well, let’s write it down - Shkuro is no different from Trotsky.
              Although ... I don’t remember that Japanese and German intelligence were internationally recognized as criminal organizations.
              Quote: Flavius
              Therefore, we will not strictly judge the hero. Everyone should have slight weaknesses.

              Service in the SS is now considered a slight weakness. Lovely ...
              And yet - why did the Cossacks prepared by Shkuro 15 CC CC fight against Bolshevism in Yugoslavia? What prevented them from meeting Bolshevik hordes face to face? wink
              1. Flavius
                Flavius 8 November 2018 14: 40
                -7
                Quote: Alexey RA
                no different from Trotsky

                Why Trotsky? Our dear Vladimir Ilyich rode in sealed wagons. And he took money from Parvus, and that one from German intelligence. And you hang all the dogs on Leiba Davydovich. And he was a respected man and hobnobed with American bankers.
                The skin is very different from them. Well I say - he was not the first to begin. In defense all means are good. And most importantly, he did not fight against Russia.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Although ... I don’t remember that Japanese and German intelligence were internationally recognized as criminal organizations.

                Well, when state A is at war with state B, then for citizens of state A, all organizations of state B are criminal by default. And vice versa. This does not require any international recognition.
                Have you not been taught this in a Soviet school? And citizens who do not adhere to the above rules are called traitors and traitors to the motherland. These are Ulyanov, Trotsky and others.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                What prevented them from meeting the Bolshevik hordes face to face?

                They met the whole civil war. And in WWII they have already become bonded people - where the elders will be sent there and sent.
                1. LeonidL
                  LeonidL 9 November 2018 03: 15
                  +2
                  There were many sealed cars, and they appeared long before Ilyich's arrival. for example, wounded prisoners returned from Germany with such a train, including Nurse Berg, the future Grandmother of the Russian counter-revolution ... she worked miracles in Moscow, transported weapons and officers to the Don ... the Cheka caught them, put them in a cell ... I didn't like the bed, they brought a new one, they didn't like the food - they began to carry it from the restaurant, conducted an investigation and did not find enough evidence, only circumstantial, so they let me go. Such beasts! I arrived in Kiev, and there ... in the basements of the independent Petliurites heaped up officers in piles. Not Bolsheviks, Ukrainian nationalists. Read her Diaries, most helpful sir, reading. At the same time, read Mamontov's "Horses and People" - how the whites shot thousands of captured Red soldiers, those who were men, who were from the plow, who were not in the party ... Read Drozdov's diaries, the recollection of a Cossack colonel who surrendered in Novorossiysk, how he was "terribly tortured" ... in all sorts of courses! And then he was appointed head of physical education, but he escaped to Finland all so tortured, tried ... Read Shkuro "Notes of a White Partisan" carefully and impartially ... This is the grassroots layer of memoirs, they write what is not in the memoirs of Wrangel or Denikin you won't find ...
                  1. Flavius
                    Flavius 9 November 2018 09: 15
                    -3
                    Quote: LeonidL
                    There were many sealed wagons and they appeared long before Ilyich’s arrival. for example, wounded prisoners returned from Germany with such a train

                    What do Ilyich and Nadezhda Konstantinovna have to do with wounded prisoners? You do not confuse warm with soft. The fact that one can be forbidden to the other.
                    Quote: LeonidL
                    "Horses and People" -
                    ... Read Drozdov's diaries, the recollection of a Cossack colonel who surrendered in Novorossiysk, how he was "terribly tortured" ... on all sorts of courses! And then he was appointed head of physical education, but he escaped to Finland all so tortured, tried ... Read Shkuro "Notes of a White Partisan" carefully and impartially ... This is the grassroots layer of memoirs, they write what is not in the memoirs of Wrangel or Denikin you won't find ...

                    I read everything, I know everything. White had excesses, but they represented legitimate authority, so much is forgiven to them.
                    Do you want not to be afraid of power? Do good, and you will receive praise from her, 4 for the leader is God's servant, good to you. If you do evil, be afraid, for he does not carry a sword in vain: he is God's servant, an avenger in punishment for doing evil.

                    as white people shot thousands of captured red soldiers, those that were peasants, that were from plow, that were not in the party

                    And what had to be done - to let go home, so that tomorrow the Reds would mobilize them again and drive them to fight? Or organize camps where they all starve to death, because the whites did not have any means and people to support these camps. When you write bullshit, then at least think.
                    1. LeonidL
                      LeonidL 10 November 2018 04: 30
                      +2
                      My dearest connoisseur of history! If you have forgotten - let me remind you that there were several trains with emigrants through Germany and the Bolsheviks made up a very small part there - the majority were Mensheviks, Socialist-Revolutionaries and representatives of other non-Bolshevik parties. Trains with the wounded are just an example of what such movement through the fronts was. For example Countess (princess) Vasilchikova came from Austria where she ended up on her estate. She came for a short time under the threat of confiscation of the estate ... brought letters from Ernie's brother Alexandra Feodorovna with a proposal for an honorable peace ... Nikolai handed the letter to the "authorities" ... as a result, only the howling of the Duma audience about the Impratrix's collusion with the Germans rose. If I hadn't passed it on, no one would have known about them, but the Emperor's questions of honor were in the first place. With the rest, alas and ah, there was a very big tension ...
                      1. Flavius
                        Flavius 10 November 2018 10: 11
                        -1
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        most were Mensheviks, Socialist-Revolutionaries, and representatives of other Bolshevik parties.

                        Do you think that the above are revered by me as the benefactors of Russia? This is the same trash as the Bolsheviks.
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        For example, Countess (Princess) Vasilchikova came from Austria where she ended up on her estate. I arrived for a short time

                        Some kind of nonsense. You really do not see the difference between diplomatic contacts, the exchange of prisoners and the sending of Ilyich to rebellious Russia? Then you have obvious problems with logical thinking.
                        Or maybe Ilyich also took a letter to Kerensky from the Kaiser?
                        I urge you not to write more such nonsense.
                    2. LeonidL
                      LeonidL 10 November 2018 04: 43
                      +4
                      You, dearest, elevate the bullshit of your own ignorance into absolute. They shot and chopped down the mass of soldiers returning from the fronts of the Great War, declaring everyone without exception Bolsheviks. what these soldiers have never been. By the way, this is exactly what Shulgin and Mamontov and other white memoirists write about with regret, describing these massacre and senseless executions. Gradually, the white leadership realized that this is simply the destruction of the people for which they are allegedly fighting. After that, the mass shootings ceased and the prisoners were put into operation. By the way, such regiments from the former sometimes proved to be very persistent. The attitude of the soldiers and the Red Army towards the choice of the side is evidenced by the fact that many in one pocket had a certificate of mobilization in red, in the other - white and some, raising their hands up at the first danger, managed to change sides several times. Or such an example of the times of the Ice Campaign, when villages and villages were destroyed that did not allow the Volunteer Army and tried to remain neutral. On the doorstep of the house, whites without any trial kill the non-commissioned border guard who returned from the front ... For what? My child, a senior non-commissioned officer and St. George cavalier, who performed the surveys of the adjutant of the senior infantry battalion (chief of staff), as a result of a gas attack and cantus, sharply set his eyesight, returned to the mill and did not want to fight anymore. Denikin’s people came and for the refusal to get into operation they flogged them with ramrods, robbed them, took them all out, destroyed the mill — grandfather survived, removed the shave, shirts and trousers from the scarecrow, since everything was in his blood and torn, he dug up the gun and ... recovering a little he left to the Reds, he rose to the rank of Chief of Staff of the Cavalry Brigade ... Here is the result of White’s policy. And yet, learn not to be rude, but to argue, useful in life. Maybe one day it will preserve the integrity of, if not the face, then the loin.
                      1. Flavius
                        Flavius 10 November 2018 10: 03
                        -3
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        Denikin’s people came and for the refusal to get into operation they flogged them with ramrods, robbed them, took them all out, destroyed the mill — grandfather survived, removed the shave, shirts and trousers from the scarecrow, since everything was in his blood and torn, he dug up the gun and ... recovering a little he left to the Reds, he rose to the rank of headquarters of the Cavalry Brigade ...

                        What is Denikin’s fault here - that they tried to force your grandfather to serve Russia?
                        As a result, your grandfather sold the faith (although it was hard to say whether he had any kind of faith), he went to serve the world international and Judas Trotsky. Handsome, what to say. Also, probably put on the oath? I didn’t want to fight - I got a Jew on the scruff of the neck.
                        He deserved in 1937 a bullet in the back of the head from the party? Deserved quite and not one ...
                      2. The comment was deleted.
                      3. The comment was deleted.
                      4. Flavius
                        Flavius 12 November 2018 08: 30
                        -1
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        not very clear understanding of what kind of oath, who to swear, how and with what words? What kind of document?

                        Uncle, here she is:
                        I swear on the honor of an officer (soldier) and promise to God and my conscience to be faithful and invariably devoted to the Russian State, as to their Fatherland. I swear to serve him to the last drop of blood, contributing in every way to the glory and prosperity of the Russian State. I undertake to obey the Provisional Government, now the head of the Russian State, from now on until the establishment of a government by the will of the people through the Constituent Assembly. I will fulfill the duties assigned to me with a full exertion of strength, having in my thoughts exclusively the benefit of the state and not sparing my life for the good of the Fatherland.

                        I swear to obey all the chiefs whom I have appointed, repairing complete obedience to them in all cases when my duty of an officer (soldier) and citizen to the Fatherland requires it. I swear to be honest, conscientious, brave officer (soldier) and not to break oaths due to self-interest, kinship, friendship and hostility. In conclusion of my oath, I overshadow myself with the sign of the Cross and sign below

                        There were different forms for people of different faiths, up to the Gentiles.
                        So about it is not necessary to chat empty.
                        The oath did not evaporate, but it was evaporated by the Bolsheviks, who in no way became legitimate from this.
                        Notice
                        ..from the establishment of a government by the will of the people through the Constituent Assembly.

                        It is precisely for this that the whites fought and anyone, even a not very smart person, could guess who constitutes a legitimate power at the moment.
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        . By the way, how poisoned with gases and shell-shock he was to be expelled from the battle line under the Tsar, but he filed a petition and was left at headquarters as an adjutant senior, in view of the shortage of junior officers

                        Do you think there were no poisoned, shell-shocked and wounded among Denikinites? There were armless and legless. Just someone wanted to fight for Russia, and someone preferred to sit out in the underground, and then run to complain to Judas.
            2. Sanya Terek
              Sanya Terek 8 November 2018 22: 17
              +4
              Quote: Flavius
              Therefore, we will not strictly judge the hero.

              Of course we won’t. He had long been convicted by the Military Collegium of the Supreme Court of the USSR, was sentenced to death by hanging. He was executed on January 16, 1947.
              On December 25, 1997, the Military Collegium of the Supreme Court of the Russian Federation recognized A. G. Shkuro as a reasonably convicted person.
              As you can see, Skuro is a criminal both in the USSR and in Russia. Only for the fascist lasts he is a dick.
              1. Flavius
                Flavius 9 November 2018 08: 48
                -5
                Are you definitely Terek, not Jerusalem? Confused nothing?
                1. Sanya Terek
                  Sanya Terek 10 November 2018 13: 52
                  +2
                  No, I didn't mix it up. This will suit you more "Waffeness" or "Brathobander".
                  1. Flavius
                    Flavius 10 November 2018 14: 29
                    +1
                    As a result, on March 27, 1921, 70 thousand Terek Cossacks were deported within one day. 35 thousand of them were destroyed on the way to the railway station by the Red Ingush and Chechens, and the villages were burned. According to eyewitnesses, the Cossacks were divided into groups: “Our village was divided into three categories. “Whites” - the male sex was shot, and the women and children were scattered where and how they could be saved. The second category - “reds” - were evicted, but not touched. And the third is the “communists." "Communists" had the right to take away all movable property. The yards of the whole village came to the Chechens and Ingush, who lifted up for our good between themselves. ”Even Stalin, who initiated repressions against the Cossacks, admitted the blunder of the policy of red terror:“ The Highlanders understood that now it is possible to offend the Terek Cossacks with impunity, they can be robbed, taken away cattle, dishonoring wives ”According to Orzhonikidze, the eviction of Cossack villages was a measure of hunger:“ After the expulsion of the White Guards, it was immediately planned to evict 18 Cossack villages (60 thousand people), whose lands wedged into mountain lands with a wedge. It was supposed to eliminate the land hunger of the mountains the poor and the strip of hair. ” Despite the fact that the eviction of the villages was recognized as an erroneous measure, twenty thousand Chechens have already been resettled in the territory of the Cossacks.

                    So you are still Jerusalem - by all indications. Tersky would not forgive and forget such things to the Bolsheviks.
                    1. Sanya Terek
                      Sanya Terek 10 November 2018 17: 30
                      +2
                      Would not forget, Would not forgive ... Only they fought without "W" against the owners of the hero Shkuro. Somehow it is not like the Cossack to become lackeys among the conquerors.
                      Why do you have a genocide of Cossacks associated only with the Soviet regime?
                      Whether the case under the autocracy was. Sovereign Emperor after the suppression of the uprising K.A. Did the Cossack mugs honey and gingerbreads regale? It turns out no. At least 8 of the Don villages were completely destroyed. Don lost up to a third of its population.
                      And what a Cossack paradise has come under the Democrats. I can remind you of more modern events - the "holy 90s", after which less than a thousand Cossack population remained in the most Russian-speaking settlement of Chechnya - the village of Naurskaya, and there were more than eight thousand.
                      Why don’t you mention this? Goebbels has not written anything on this subject?
                      You better cover the "Censor-no" communists and you will be there glory.
                      1. Flavius
                        Flavius 10 November 2018 18: 08
                        -1
                        All clear. You most importantly, do not forget to visit your Tersk synagogue today. hi Saturday is ..
                      2. Sanya Terek
                        Sanya Terek 10 November 2018 19: 22
                        +2
                        At first, I didn’t understand about Saturday. It seems like a familiar thing for you.
                      3. Mikhail Matyugin
                        Mikhail Matyugin 12 November 2018 00: 24
                        +1
                        I’ll answer a little for a friend.

                        Quote: Sanya Tersky
                        the "holy 90s", after which less than a thousand Cossack population remained in the most Russian-speaking settlement of Chechnya - the village of Naurskaya, and there were more than eight thousand.
                        Those who ruined the country in 90 were direct descendants of the communist party nomenclature of 80x, so these are the things. Not from the moon arrived.

                        And the genocide of the Russian population in the North Caucasus at the beginning of 90x is a separate, very big topic that we should not forget.


                        Quote: Sanya Tersky
                        Whether the case under the autocracy was. Sovereign Emperor after the suppression of the uprising K.A. Did the Cossack mugs honey and gingerbreads regale? It turns out no. At least 8 of the Don villages were completely destroyed. Don lost up to a third of its population.
                        only that was 300 years ago, so it has already been forgotten and "overgrown with the past." Moreover, the same tsarist government concluded a "peace" with the Cossacks later, and the same extreme Bulavins and others, and their descendants who had migrated, announced an amnesty and called back to Russia. And the bloody deeds of the era of revolution and civil war in Russia are unfortunately too fresh ...
                      4. Mcar
                        Mcar 12 November 2018 08: 24
                        0
                        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                        Those who destroyed the country in the 90s were direct descendants of the communist party nomenclature of the 80s

                        Not communist, but anti-communist party nomenclature.

                        What is the name of the one who tyry with friends? Another or a rat? Or does a person make a party card?
                      5. Flavius
                        Flavius 12 November 2018 09: 50
                        -1
                        Quote: McAr
                        Not communist, but anti-communist party nomenclature.

                        But Trotsky, Antonov, Podvoisky, Bukharin, etc. were communist or anti-communist party nomenclature?
                        If anti-communist, then what about the words of Stalin:
                        “... All work on the practical organization of the uprising took place under the direct supervision of the chairman of the Petrograd Soviet, comrade Trotsky. It is safe to say that the party is obliged, first and foremost, comrade, by the quick transition of the garrison to the side of the council and the skillful staging of the work of the Military Revolutionary Committee. Trotsky. Comrades Antonov and Podvoisky were Trotsky's chief assistants. ” (The Truth, 6.XI.1918)

                        And if communist, then why did he kill people to whom he owes everything?
                        Maybe it was better to get Comrade Dzhugashvili a revolutionary Mauser and shoot at his non-Russian black head than to treacherously kill the creators of the revolution?
                      6. Mcar
                        Mcar 12 November 2018 10: 19
                        0
                        Quote: Flavius
                        But Trotsky, Antonov, Podvoisky, Bukharin, etc. were communist or anti-communist party nomenclature?

                        Which Trotsky communist, if he behaved like a master in everyday life?
                        Which Bukharin is a communist if he advocated pauperization? Those. the impoverishment of the masses (in physical terms over 50 million peasants) up to starvation and the enrichment of rural moneylenders (kulaks)?

                        And then, it was about "those who destroyed the country in the 90s - were direct immigrants from the communist party nomenclature of the 80s." Among those who destroyed the country in the 90s are there those who can be considered communists? Name.
                      7. Flavius
                        Flavius 12 November 2018 10: 27
                        -1
                        Those. it turns out that Sov. power was created without communists and collapsed without them ... laughing
                        How wonderful. And the hard-stone communist Dzhugashvili hid behind the broad back of the non-communist Bronstein and sang hallelujah to him while he was doing all the most responsible work. And then at the right moment he slammed the Jew along the head with an ice ax.
                        Great power, great people. People who can neither take power nor hold it.
                        Quote: McAr
                        Among those who ruined the country in the 90s, there are those who can be considered communists?

                        Well, I just don’t know who you deserve this high rank. If such scumbags like Stalin and Beria, then there really were no such bloody killers in the 80s and 90s.
                        You are right, "comrade".
                      8. Mcar
                        Mcar 12 November 2018 10: 33
                        -6
                        Quote: Flavius
                        Those. it turns out that Sov. power was created without communists and collapsed without them ...

                        Was Soviet power created in the 90s?

                        Quote: Flavius
                        Well, I just don’t know who you deserve this high rank.

                        The image created by Urbansky in the film "Communist".

                        To ruin any business (topic, question) you need to giggle it.
                      9. Flavius
                        Flavius 12 November 2018 10: 52
                        -1
                        Quote: McAr
                        Was Soviet power created in the 90s?

                        No, the CPSU (b) seized power under the leadership of the above non-communists in 1917 and defended it with the help of an army created and led by the above non-communist.
                        Quote: McAr
                        The image created by Urbansky in the film "Communist".

                        Sorry, I’m not looking at such a bullshit.
                        And yet - why did Stalin call Trotsky a comrade and praise him if he is not a communist?
                      10. Mcar
                        Mcar 12 November 2018 11: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Flavius
                        No, the RCP (B.) Seized power under the leadership of the above non-communists in 1917 and defended it with the help of an army created and led by the above non-communist.

                        So why are you jumping from era to era? I remind you why you clung to the year 1917:
                        Quote: McAr
                        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                        Those who destroyed the country in the 90s were direct descendants of the communist party nomenclature of the 80s

                        Not communist, but anti-communist party nomenclature.

                        What is the name of the one who tyry with friends? Another or a rat? Or does a person make a party card?

                        Be careful.
                      11. Flavius
                        Flavius 12 November 2018 11: 08
                        -1
                        Quote: McAr
                        Be careful.

                        Okay, I'm sorry.
                        I was just interested in the question - who is a real communist and when did he appear.
                        And how did it happen that the real communists are not responsible for any dirty tricks that they did in the USSR? Surely, as some kind of crap happened, the next non-communist who leaked into the ranks of the real Communists was to blame. He was shot, and the jambs continued and continued. Until everything was covered with a copper basin.
                        Sorry to distract you with uncomfortable questions from the proverbs to the Owls. Authorities. Please continue - very interesting laughing
                      12. Mcar
                        Mcar 12 November 2018 11: 32
                        0
                        Quote: Flavius
                        I was just interested in the question - who is a real communist and when did he appear.

                        You can, of course, look in the dictionary. But you really won’t understand: the communist is a supporter of the ideas of communism or a member of the communist party.

                        Apparently, you need to dance from the stove.
                        Commune or communis in translation means community. And if you go deeper, then the basis of mun has a meaning - "duty, service". In this regard, you can not giggle, but joke: given that com- / con- almost always means c- / co- we get that communis means co-duty, co-service, so you can turn to your colleagues - a communist.

                        In plain language, a community member is one who lives primarily by the interests of the community (society) and only after that by his own. And if they go wrong, then sacrifices their own, in favor of the common. If this is explained in the language of the Pepsi generation, at the clip level, then the aspirations of the communist - "think about the Motherland first, and then about yourself", while the aspirations of the anti-communist - "your shirt is closer to your body."

                        And you already know the answer to the question "when did the communist appear" - many, many millennia ago in the primitive communist system.

                        Quote: Flavius
                        And how did it happen that the real Communists are not responsible for any dirty tricks that they did in the USSR. Necessarily, as some kind of crap happened, the next non-communist who leaked into the ranks of the real Communists is to blame.

                        Are you surprised that crooks, villains, careerists climb into power? And where do you think they should have accumulated? Really at open-hearth furnaces and at the helm of combines?

                        Is it Khrushchev that the Communist shot the workers for their legitimate demands, which all over the world still require - to raise wages?
                        What Khrushchev did: www.youtube.com/watch?v=exSVQofAa2w

                        Quote: Flavius
                        everything becomes very muddy

                        Everything is very clear there.

                        A classless society is hated by those who would like to exploit their own kind, which is not even in the animal kingdom. And vice versa.
                      13. Sanya Terek
                        Sanya Terek 13 November 2018 18: 49
                        0
                        Michael, does not fit one with the other.
                        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                        ... it was 300 years ago, so it has already been forgotten, and "bygone has grown" ... And the bloody deeds of the era of revolution and civil war in Russia - unfortunately too fresh ...

                        My argument with Flavius ​​began with a discussion of A.G. Skin. Service A.G. The skin of the Nazis, in time, is much closer to us of his heroism during the WWII. Why does a certain category of citizens remember only what is beneficial to her? Sotnika Shkuro remembers, but Gruppenfuhrer Shkuro forgot? He respects great-grandfathers who fought with the White in the Great Patriotic War, and tries not to remember his grandfathers — the Red Army soldiers who won the WWII? Time does not matter.
                        One of the current heroes of Ukraine, Mazepa, also fought well during the Azov campaigns of Peter I, in Russia, the second in a row became a knight of the Order of Andrew the First-Called. Maybe install some kind of memorial plaque in his honor. For betrayal he was nominated for the Order of Judas, but so what? May be:
                        Quote: Flavius
                        ... we will not strictly judge the hero. Everyone should have slight weaknesses.

                        Shkuro, Mazepa and others, like them - of one field of berries and one reward for them is a curse.
      2. LeonidL
        LeonidL 9 November 2018 03: 06
        +5
        I appreciate the historical document, the recollection of the Civil War, then a living witness, and not the personality of General Shkuro, who was hanged quite deservedly - he is one of the organizers of the SS Cossack troops and they committed terrible war crimes in Russia, Belarus, especially in Yugoslavia, fought on side of Germany, or rather Hitler personally. and General Shkuro himself sported in a German uniform - and he was hanged in it. By the way, read how the terrible Bolsheviks nursed the generals and how the generals thanked the Red Bolsheviks. The same can be read from Makhrov about the "horrors" of the Cheka, which in Poltava found 15 Austrian rifles and a lot of cold weapons in the garden of the general's family, just before the fall of the city, nevertheless conducted an examination, found out their unsuitability and released both his family and father-in-law , the same general ... by the way, the brother of the last chief of staff and the failed commander of the White Army in Poland, was a co-brig in the Red Army, lived to retire and was buried with military honors. Read about the atrocities of the Whites and the "atrocities" of the Reds from the chief of staff of Kolchak, General Budberg ... he well characterized the white "heroes" of the Cossack chieftains Kalmykov and Semyonov and the rest of the public. And about Ungern's art and, again, about horror stories about the Cheka, read in "Noble Piglets" and the memoirs of the Grandmother of the Russian counter-revolution Berg ... There are also Mamontov's magnificent memoirs "Horses and People" ... "Drozdovsky's Diary" ... Efron's notes, 1920 -1 year of Shulgin, the works of Gulya ... and a lot of things you need to know about the Civil War. This reading is especially useful for those who do not believe the "red historians". Don't believe them - believe the whites. I have the honor, gentlemen, comrades, gentlemen and just ladies!
    2. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 8 November 2018 16: 16
      +1
      Yes, it is believed that the Izhevsk and Votkinskites were the most reliable units at Kolchak. True, at the same time they had both desertion and transition to the side of the Reds. And most importantly, they had such relations with each other that the white command tried to keep them away from one another, so that instead of the Reds they would not kill "each other."
  3. Olgovich
    Olgovich 8 November 2018 06: 43
    -16
    The real workers were against the Bolsheviks and not only in the cities mentioned: it was the workers of Putilovsky, Obukhov and other factories who were shot by the Bolsheviks during a peaceful demonstration in support of the Constituent Assembly, and after the dispersal it was proposed to hold meetings at their factories.
  4. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 8 November 2018 08: 20
    +6
    The text clearly lacks illustrative material, for example, instead of the Latvian riflemen in the trenches, maps of military operations would be much more informative. And so - informative. A plus.
  5. EvilLion
    EvilLion 8 November 2018 08: 58
    +2
    Well whites were soaked. Qualitatively.
    1. Lieutenant Teterin
      Lieutenant Teterin 8 November 2018 09: 40
      -12
      So you rejoice that foreign mercenaries killed Russian people?
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 8 November 2018 09: 44
        +3
        Did the whites become Russians? This is the number. Hasek would be surprised. True, he, suddenly, was for the Bolsheviks.
        1. Lieutenant Teterin
          Lieutenant Teterin 8 November 2018 09: 46
          -1
          Quote: EvilLion
          Did the whites become Russians?

          The article is not about the Czechs, but about the workers of the Izhevsk and Votkinsk factories, against whom the "people's" government abandoned foreigners.
          1. Seamaster
            Seamaster 8 November 2018 11: 21
            +8
            Lieutenant, you at least read the article carefully.
            And not only this one.
            No WORKERS participated in the uprising.
            The uprising and subsequent battles were attended by members of the "Union of front-line soldiers" - non-commissioned officers and officers who returned and escaped from the army, whose careers collapsed with the advent of Soviet power.
            Skilled workers of Izhevsk and Votkinsk were not with the tsar, not with the Bolsheviks, they were never taken into the army - armor.
            Well, and, judging by the article, it was the whites who started the first to shoot opponents and members of their families.
            So what did they expect when the power changed?
            1. Lieutenant Teterin
              Lieutenant Teterin 8 November 2018 11: 40
              -10
              You definitely read the article? The "union of front-line soldiers" acted as the nucleus of the uprising, its command. But in the bayonet on the red mercenaries went exactly what the workers.
              Quote: Seamaster
              Well, and, judging by the article, it was the whites who started the first to shoot opponents and members of their families.

              The article lied a little. They didn’t touch their relatives, but only the Chekists and red agitators — plague rats who were guilty of reprisals against people before the uprising — were shot.
              1. Seamaster
                Seamaster 8 November 2018 13: 20
                +6
                But the workers went to the bayonets on the red mercenaries.
                ====================================================================== =========
                Did you go on the same attack with them?
                The workers both worked in the factories under the Reds, then under the White, and then again under the Reds, so they worked.
                For some reason, some believe that if the uprising is in Izhevsk, then these are Izhevsk workers.
                Happen this in St. Petersburg, then this is an uprising of ballerinas and law professors?
                And in Moscow - then managers with Mara Baghdasaryan at the head?
                1. Lieutenant Teterin
                  Lieutenant Teterin 8 November 2018 13: 41
                  -3
                  Quote: Seamaster
                  Did you go on the same attack with them?
                  The workers both worked in the factories under the Reds, then under the White, and then again under the Reds, so they worked.

                  Yes, Christmas trees, sticks, there is evidence of the participants in the uprising about the participation of workers:
                  The new volunteer formations, which were created under the leadership of officers and front-line soldiers from the armed working population, formed higher units — columns, as the military needed them. After a forced reduction in production, the production of rifles increased to 2.500 pieces daily.

                  on the same day, from the number of workers it was possible to form the 1st and 2nd rifle companies of the time. A.N. Angular and cap. G.I. Mudrinin, equestrian detachment of the mouth. M.I.

                  Aksenov’s technician was found dead after the battle. Killed, obviously, by an explosive bullet in the head. It can be assumed that, after blowing up land mines, he began to retreat and came under enemy fire, which had already entered the flank.
                  Vladimir Germogenovich Aksenov graduated in 1913 from Votkinsk Wednesday. The Technical School and entered the Izhevsk plant in the Mechanical workshop as a draftsman, where he served all the time.
                  Educated, gentle in character, modest, fair, excellent comrade - he was always welcome in a friendly environment. For his good nature, comrades always affectionately called him "Vovochka".
                  The events of recent days, the famous Bolshevik orders for executions, outraged his noble soul. And on the day of the uprising, he took a rifle to protect the people from which he himself came out with his chest. He is a member of the fighting on
                  The Agryz front and the hero of the battle of August 18, where he fell, having completed the task assigned to him to the end.

                  http://www.fedy-diary.ru/html/032013/0703013-05a.html
                  Do you understand? The participants in the battles themselves say that they attacked the Bolsheviks Workers.
                  1. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 8 November 2018 14: 52
                    +1
                    Hello. The source you specified is based on information from the insurgents' printed organ "Izhevsk Zashchitnik".
                    Here is a quote from the source:
                    The rebel newspapers had a bright political color and did not hide their political choice. They primarily served the cause of agitation.... The notices that were from time to time placed in the numbers of Izhevsk Defender say a lot. Typed in large, catchy letters, they first of all caught the eyes of factory workers and urban residents and created what they needed for the familiar
                    Other materials mood.
              2. Sugar Honeyovich
                Sugar Honeyovich 8 November 2018 15: 59
                0
                They "touched" everyone suspected of "sympathizing with the Bolsheviks", as well as their relatives. Moreover, they did not particularly look at the floor or age.
            2. LeonidL
              LeonidL 10 November 2018 05: 06
              +2
              Unfortunately, here you are wrong - they were taken into the army, especially in the first year, then - returned. In Izhevsk and Votkinsk it was the elite, highly skilled, privileged workers of state-owned factories that revolted. They, like many railway workers on state-owned roads, not private, were for the whites ... until they realized that the White movement is not STATE !!! The main miscalculation and misfortune of the White Code is that, having occupied territory, they behaved like temporary workers (read Shulgin !!!), in contrast to them, when the Reds arrived, not only the external attributes of Power were restored, but also what was determined by the state-run long-term approach - restoration utilities, social security, food supply, restoration of factories, etc. including some form of legality, taken for granted by the majority of the population, especially its lower strata. Something similar in the White Movement began only in Crimea under Wrangel, but ... lack of time, sabotage, corruption, drunkenness ...
              1. Sugar Honeyovich
                Sugar Honeyovich 10 November 2018 08: 22
                +2
                Quote: LeonidL
                upon the arrival of the Reds, not only the external attributes of Power were restored, but also what is determined by the state long-term approach - restoration of public services, social security, food supply, restoration of factories, etc.

                It's true. An eyewitness account (the scene of the action was a settlement in the Perm region, time - 1920 or 1921): "A special commission went to their homes, asked who needed what. Mother complained that the stove was not working well and the stove-maker could not be found. A week later the stove-maker came and fixed the stove And the doctors went - they looked at the children, who was exhausted - they were assigned to the canteens, fed free of charge. First they fed in the canteen, then they allowed them to take food at home - you come with your dishes and take them away "
                1. LeonidL
                  LeonidL 11 November 2018 04: 11
                  +2
                  This is the cornerstone of the question "why did the Reds win?" They had a program of actions for the future, they were statesmen, and the whites, with their throwing from "God save the Tsar!" until "all power to the Constituent Assembly!" looked to the layman as temporary workers, their power seemed somewhat operetta + wild corruption, drunkenness, theft, bezishodnost ... it came to stealing cartridges from each other. All this is revealed in the memoirs of the participants of the White Movement themselves.
                  1. Mikhail Matyugin
                    Mikhail Matyugin 12 November 2018 00: 28
                    0
                    Quote: LeonidL
                    This is the cornerstone of the question "why did the Reds win?" They had a program of actions for the future, they were statesmen, and the whites, with their throwing from "God save the Tsar!" until "all power to the Constituent Assembly!" looked like temporary workers for the layman
                    Amusing! Those. is a typical international camarilla that has seized power with foreign money, are these statists? You do not distinguish between populism and propaganda from realities? In the 1917 year, the Bolshevik-statesmen remained at least 25-30 years.

                    Quote: LeonidL
                    wild corruption, drunkenness, theft, despair ... reached the theft of cartridges from each other.
                    Yeah, is it wrong with the Reds? and maybe even more trenchant, did not you think by chance? reality shows that it was so. The "Red Guard" remained a gathering of half-bandits for a long time, until it turned into the Soviet army, which we all know and which is in many ways a model for us, remained for decades.
                    1. LeonidL
                      LeonidL 12 November 2018 07: 00
                      0
                      You are my precious, but besides emotions, do you have something for your soul? Unproven cries and sentiments are just a sign of powerlessness. Read the memoirs of white - you will understand.
                    2. Mcar
                      Mcar 12 November 2018 09: 04
                      0
                      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                      Those. is a typical international camarilla that has seized power with foreign money, are these statists?

                      So sure, statists!

                      This is evidenced by decrees and appeals. The issues that the Soviet authorities dealt with in the very first year clearly demonstrate that the state building of the Bolsheviks was by no means in last place.

                      Decrees of the Soviet government 1917-1918: http://www.hist.msu.ru/ER/Etext/DEKRET/

                      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                      The "Red Guard" remained a gathering of half-bandits for a long time, until it turned into the Soviet army, which we all know and which is in many ways a model for us, remained for decades.

                      Everything at once happens only in a fairy tale.

                      After all, this is just a stamp such as "Revolution of 1917". In fact, a revolution is not a day, not a month, or even a year. A revolution is a whole era, where the boundaries of the beginning and the end can be determined only approximately.
                      The beginning, apparently, can be indicated by the year 1905. And the end of this revolution is about the end of the 30s.
                      Unless, of course, by revolution we mean this:
    2. Flavius
      Flavius 8 November 2018 09: 57
      -13
      Quote: EvilLion
      Well whites were soaked. Qualitatively

      Isn’t it that Dzhugashvili died qualitatively - in a pool of his own urine thrown by accomplices? And then, qualitatively, his friend, Lavrentiy, in his own shooting basement.
      And about 10 years before that, all the old Bolsheviks, qualitatively, received a bullet in the back of their heads from like-minded people.
      1. Seamaster
        Seamaster 8 November 2018 11: 24
        +8
        Do you expect to die (when the time comes), reclining on a golden throne and emitting the scent of roses?
        Alas.
        Hospital bed, post-mortem involuntary bowel movement and urination.
        Physiology-s.
        1. Flavius
          Flavius 8 November 2018 11: 30
          -8
          Quote: Seamaster

          Do you expect to die (when the time comes), reclining on a golden throne and emitting the scent of roses?

          I do not count. But this is not about me, but about Dzhugashvili, whom his own loyal friends threw. Lavrenty died without a post-mortem defecation (although no one knows for sure), but again betrayed by accomplices.
          And such a sad fate befell the majority of faithful Leninists.
          1. Seamaster
            Seamaster 8 November 2018 13: 25
            +5
            And Nicholas II died, betrayed by accomplices.
            And Paul the 1st died, surrounded by accomplices. But he was not happy about this.
            The same is Peter 3. Around decent people, and he with a scarf around his neck.
            Elizabeth, too, was dying alone. On the pot.
            Laugh at that too.
            1. Flavius
              Flavius 8 November 2018 13: 33
              -5
              Quote: Seamaster

              And Nicholas II died, betrayed by accomplices.

              Died like a man, now a saint. Good death. And he had no accomplices. There was a bird in the wrong flight - he did not sit in prisons.
              Are you happy for your red friends that they killed women and children?
              Quote: Seamaster
              And Paul the 1st died, surrounded by accomplices. But he was not happy about this.
              The same is Peter 3. Around decent people, and he with a scarf around his neck.
              Elizabeth, too, was dying alone. On the pot.

              And why did not Nero write. What are you dragging them to?

              The comrade from above was glad that the Bolsheviks qualitatively killed Russians. I replied that most of these killers later died qualitatively.
              And Paul the First is not here in business with Elizabeth.
              1. sunzhenets
                sunzhenets 8 November 2018 14: 15
                +2
                Quote: Flavius
                Died like a man, now a saint. Good death. And he had no accomplices. There was a bird in the wrong flight - he did not sit in prisons.

                1. Shot with his wife and children. What is good and masculine here? There were no accomplices - all relatives (except his wife and children), senior officials, generals and his church surrendered in February 1917.
                2. He did not show signs of the sanctity of Orthodox ascetics during his lifetime. The saint for political reasons ...
                1. Flavius
                  Flavius 8 November 2018 14: 24
                  -6
                  Quote: Sunflower
                  What is good and masculine here?

                  To die a man from the bullet of the enemy - what is so bad? And for the wife and children ask from Sverdlov with Ulyanov.
                  Quote: Sunflower
                  There were no accomplices - all relatives (except his wife and children), senior officials, generals surrendered him in February 1917.

                  All the worse for them - none of them models piety and sculpts. The church has nothing to do with it - it's not her business.
                  Quote: Sunflower
                  He showed no signs of holiness of the Orthodox ascetics during his life.

                  Well, you are not the Holy Synod - therefore, your strong opinion is interesting of course, but nothing more.
                2. Mikhail Matyugin
                  Mikhail Matyugin 10 November 2018 21: 25
                  +1
                  Quote: Sunflower
                  2. He did not show signs of the sanctity of Orthodox ascetics during his lifetime. The saint for political reasons ...

                  Oh well. With this phrase you showed that you absolutely have no idea about the canonized Sovereign. At all. Do the opinions of the elders (for example, from Athos) mean anything to you in this matter?
              2. LeonidL
                LeonidL 10 November 2018 05: 20
                0
                Nicholas II led himself, and his family, and the Empire to a mediocre death ... His last words were "What? What?" - he still did not understand anything ... yes, he is a Martyr, but God forbid the father to watch the death of children, yes, I think that the state of the USSR, the foundation of which was involved in the blood of innocent children, and other innocent, mainly members of the Romanov family , which is why it eventually fell apart (which is a pity, a pity). But Nikolai Romanov is by no means a hero - he is even a bad colonel, a lousy battalion commander, if with an elite and devoted escort he could not break through into rebellious Petrograd through a pile of gray infantry groats with one faulty cannon without shells, led by a hysterical infantry lieutenant. He is a worthless head of state, if during the Great War the state was ruled by an illiterate peasant and his secretaries, not quite adequate AF, whose psyche was seriously disturbed as a result of the Heir's incurable illness. Nicholas is a bad, irresponsible son and heir to the Emperor, who insisted on marriage with the Hessian fly against the will of his parents, who foresaw such a development of events. Nikolai is a man who put his personal desires (marriage with AF carrying the hereditary curse of hemopholia) above the state necessity - this is the chain that led the Empire to collapse, and the Romanov family (like many other representatives of clan families) to the wall of the Ipatievsky basement.
                1. Flavius
                  Flavius 10 November 2018 19: 07
                  -3
                  Nicholas II led both himself, and his family, and the Empire to untalented death ...

                  You do not see the forest behind the trees. Kaiser Wilhelm, emperors Franz Joseph, Nicholas - all of them almost simultaneously led their states to death. The problem was systemic and did not depend on the personality of the ruler.
                  It’s you who are accustomed to rinsing Nikolai out of the old soviet habit, you can’t stop. Judging by yours, all the empires of Europe were then ruled by utter cretins. But this is nonsense - all of them were far from the worst rulers. But it was not in them, but in the spirit of the era.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                2. Mcar
                  Mcar 12 November 2018 09: 17
                  0
                  Quote: LeonidL
                  Nikolay - a man who placed his personal desires (marriage to AF carrying a hereditary curse of hemopholy) above state necessity - this is the chain that led the Empire to collapse, and the Romanov family (like so many other representatives of the clan families) to the wall of the Ipatiev cellar.

                  Your comments are very interesting - you feel deep knowledge in the subject.
                  Please share your opinion on this issue. There are a lot of publications on the Internet on the topic "there was no execution, the family of the former tsar survived." Especially suspicious is the behavior of Kolchak, who changed investigators until he found one who understood what was required of him.
                  1. LeonidL
                    LeonidL 13 November 2018 04: 35
                    0
                    You are right, I really dealt with issues of military history, was published in military publications, in various political and historical magazines. As an analyst, he dealt with the execution of the family of Nicholas II. The case is very confusing over the past years. Everything must decide the final DNA analysis of the remains. There are doubts about Anastasia and Alexei, for example, the fact that only one pectoral icon (incense) from Grigory Rasputin, which belongs to Alexei, was not found. It is unlikely that he parted with her, but she could be lost during the transportation of bodies. I believed and believe that the innocent victims of the Ipatiev House, especially children and servants, sprinkled with their blood the collapse of the foundation of the USSR that followed in 1991. The whole family, I think, simply did not have a chance to survive, if it was possible for two children or one Alexei - this is already good for the future. Kolchak would not have been happy with the fact that the Family was saved, in general, the entire military elite + the Romanov family were participants in the conspiracy to overthrow Nicholas, sponsored by the Anglo-Saxons, but neither they nor the Duma possessed sufficient insight to calculate the results of such a fall in autocracy by several steps forward. That is, roughly speaking, sawed a branch on which they sat so comfortably ...
                    1. Mcar
                      Mcar 13 November 2018 06: 12
                      0
                      Thank you.

                      Quote: LeonidL
                      Everything must decide the final DNA analysis of the remains. There are doubts about Anastasia and Alexei

                      So, DNA analysis has already been done. Moreover, quality:
                      After analyzing the DNA structures of the Yekaterinburg remains and comparing them with the DNA analysis of the brother of Nicholas the Second Grand Duke George Romanov, the nephew of the emperor Tikhon Kulikovsky-Romanov, and DNA taken from sweat particles from imperial clothes, Professor of the Tokyo Institute of Microbiology Tatsuo Nagai concluded that the remains discovered near Yekaterinburg, do not belong to Nikolai Romanov and his family members.

                      Can the Japanese be trusted in this matter?
                      What has the government commission done? She took a distant relationship, second cousins ​​of Nicholas II, and a very distant kinship in the line of Alexandra Fedorovna, is the English Prince Philip. Despite the fact that there is an opportunity to find out the DNA structures of close relatives: there are the relics of Elizabeth Fedorovna, the sister of the Empress, the son of the sister of Nikolai the Second, Tikhon Nikolayevich Kulikovsky-Romanov.
                      The Japanese took DNA tests just close relatives emperor.

                      And that is not all.
                      An absolutely clear historical fact was recorded that when Nicholas once, while still a prince, went to Japan, he was hit with a saber on the head there. Two wounds were inflicted: occipital-parietal and frontoparietal 9 and 10 cm, respectively. During the cleaning of the second occipital-parietal wound, a bone fragment was removed, the thickness of an ordinary sheet of writing paper. This is enough to leave a notch on the skull - the so-called bone callus, which does not resolve. On the skull, which the Sverdlovsk authorities, and later the federal authorities, gave out as the skull of Nicholas II, there is no callus.


                      And the church somehow strangely reacted to the remains of the anointed and family members:
                      On July 17, 1998, His Holiness Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Alexy II refused to participate in the solemn burial of the remains in the Peter and Paul Fortress of St. Petersburg. Not one of the ruling bishops was there either. And the priest who served the requiem proclaimed: "Peace, Lord, Thy souls, whose names you are." That is, it was a memorial service for the dead, whose names were not even named, since there is no certainty that these remains are royal.
                      The Church has not changed its attitude to the question to this day.


                      But most of all, Kolchak's behavior is surprising, unless, of course, you know that he did not need a living tsar. When he occupied Yekaterinburg, an investigation was carried out in hot pursuit. Repeatedly. Investigator Nametkin's report: "Instead of being shot, it was staged." A new investigation and a new report by investigator Sergeev: "Instead of being shot, it was staged." And like that, commission after commission. And only Sokolov (he received instructions or he guessed what was expected of him - it doesn't matter) issued to the mountain: "The corpses were thrown into the mine, doused with acid."

                      A. Summers T. Mangold's book, "The Case of the Romanovs, or the Shooting That Wasn't" contains a lot of interesting details indicating that there was no execution.

                      Experienced investigators say that one indirect evidence means nothing. Two can also be an accident. But three is already an occasion to take a closer look. When there is a heap of these indirect evidence, there can be no doubt.

                      So I asked in the hope that maybe you from some little-known sources will shed more light on the question ...
                      1. LeonidL
                        LeonidL 14 November 2018 07: 34
                        0
                        The matter, as I said, is very confusing, because the Church is not in a hurry with final conclusions. But, it is obvious that Kolchak, sitting on the contentment of the Anglo-Saxons, the initiators of the overthrow of the Tsar, does not need the resurrection of the Imperial family (or rather, his sponsors). No need for the resurrection of the Family and the Bolsheviks. By the way, the destruction is merciless and very stupid, the rest of the Romanovs, who were within the reach of the Bolsheviks, do not cause any particular interest or doubt. But, most likely, the family was shot in the basement. The rescue of two or one children is possible with a very low degree of certainty. For example, the option of replacing Alexei with a kitchen boy. Perhaps that is why she takes out one incense from Grgory Rasputin, which belongs to him. It is unlikely that he voluntarily refused it, because only Gregory (good or bad) but saved him during the most acute hemopholy attacks.
                      2. Mcar
                        Mcar 14 November 2018 07: 44
                        -4
                        Quote: LeonidL
                        For example, the option of replacing Alexei with a kitchen boy.

                        Yes, I also read somewhere that the king had 7 doubles, and families. It is said that he got his doubles after "Bloody Sunday" in 1905. A common practice among top officials of the state (kingdom, kingdom). Perhaps they shot a family of doubles ...
                      3. LeonidL
                        LeonidL 14 November 2018 07: 48
                        0
                        Nicholas II, for all his shortcomings, was a nobleman and a man of honor; he would not go on such a forgery. In addition, when the Family was in Tobolsk, the germogen, which at that time had influence and capabilities, offered something similar to save the Romanov family. They didn’t agree. (The truth here perhaps played the role of the semi-mystical hatred of the Hessian fly to Germogen - the enemy of Grigory Rasputin)
  6. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 8 November 2018 11: 05
    -3
    "How the Bolsheviks defeated the proletarians."
    Another sad page of the Civil War.
  7. Adjutant
    Adjutant 8 November 2018 13: 52
    +3
    An indicator that Gv went not according to the social, but the ideological criterion.
    Workers also fought on the side of the whites
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 8 November 2018 14: 13
      +6
      Quote: Adjutant
      An indicator that Gv went not according to the social, but the ideological criterion.
      Workers also fought on the side of the whites

      Yeah ... and the generals are on the red side.
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 8 November 2018 17: 34
        +4
        Most of the officers and generals who took part in the Civil War fought on the side of the Bolsheviks. Those who did not accept the revolution for the most part simply emigrated. I have two cousins ​​who were married to the generals of the tsarist army - families were dumped from the country. The native, then still single, remained and actively fought for the Bolsheviks.
        For the whites the most frostbitten remained, like Kolchak and others like him.
        1. LeonidL
          LeonidL 12 November 2018 07: 23
          0
          You are right, and the whites themselves describe in their memoirs that the rear areas were packed with officers, they drank and revel in restaurants until the last hour, these swollen and swollen rear service personnel did not send huge warehouses to the front, people had to knock out short fur coats and greatcoats or exchange them for vodka ... There was such a mess, Mom, don't worry! bvl such a prince wrote his memoirs (forgot his surname already) he was the commander in the headquarters in Alushta ... such a military captain ... described the evacuation. The most amusing reading! And how their wounded were sent in what an ugly state !!! And about the fact that the wealthy, seeing all this, did not invest money in a white enterprise? All this is painful and bitter to read - because the Civil War is the greatest national grief, but you need to read and learn in order not to repeat the mistakes of the past again! And do not yell "Alillah" with only one or the other when you close your eyes.
      2. LeonidL
        LeonidL 10 November 2018 05: 22
        +1
        An example of General Makhrov — he is with the whites — his brother-general is with the reds!
  8. Foul skeptic
    Foul skeptic 8 November 2018 16: 14
    +3
    I am grateful to one of the commentators for the link to such a source.
    http://www.fedy-diary.ru/html/032013/0703013-05a.html
    A good example of human psychology is all the organizational measures of the Bolsheviks, which were caused by the need to wage war with the White movement and intervention, and which caused discontent among part of the population of the region, which served as a spark for the uprising ... So exactly all the same measures had to be used in the future and the rebels. And a ban on the possession of weapons, and a ban on holding meetings, and the introduction of martial law and curfews, and mandatory fortification work, and an increase in production rates at the enterprise, and the fight against "counter-revolution", and voluntary-compulsory mobilization with appeals to the wives of workers to send their husbands to the front, and revisions of warm clothes, and food control with the introduction of ration cards and so on and so forth ...
    Complete tracing paper.
    And here are two questions:
    1) If you do the same thing that the enemy did, then why is he worse and you better?
    2) Maybe you shouldn't have been dissatisfied with their such actions, because their reason is the war, and not the "general bloodthirstiness" of the concept invented by the agitation? After all, you were forced to take the same measures in the conditions of war.
    1. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 8 November 2018 18: 51
      -1
      The "people's power" did exactly the same thing during the Siberian uprising of 1920-21. Mobilization ("if you don't come with us - we'll kill everyone" - an eyewitness account), surplus appropriation not only for bread and vegetables, but also for cranberries, immediately created counterintelligence, and so on and so forth and so on ...
      1. Foul skeptic
        Foul skeptic 9 November 2018 08: 37
        0
        The "people's power" did exactly the same thing during the Siberian uprising of 1920-21.

        Well, actually, this is what my message is about.
  9. ODERVIT
    ODERVIT 8 November 2018 18: 32
    +1
    It’s bad to have your own versus your own. It would not be repeated, with us seriously, to the last.
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 11 November 2018 18: 38
      -1
      Quote: ODERVIT
      It’s bad to have your own versus your own. It would not be repeated, with us seriously, to the last.

      They fought not against their own, but against alien ideas.
  10. Kamil
    Kamil 13 November 2018 03: 25
    0
    It is interesting to talk about it here http://rpcz.info/vypusk-232-s-10-po-20-noyabrya-2018-g
  11. Looking for
    Looking for 18 January 2019 14: 34
    0
    American lackeys. Not tired of finding fault with the SOVIET POWER.