Military Review

So which fleet does Russia need?

137
And in general, it is high time to decide whether we (Russia) are a sea or continental power?


If according to the mind, yes in past times - it seems to be sea and even oceanic. According to the present time - everything is ambiguous.

Although, in principle, it has always been ambiguous. Russia is generally a unique country in terms of flotation, since, probably, no country in the world has such problems with fleet. More precisely, with the fleets.



There are countries, which have to keep more than one fleet. Those of the United States, there seems to be more, but they are all divided into two sectors: the Pacific and the Atlantic. But so that four, in my opinion, no one else in the world has such a nightmare.

However, to get out somehow necessary. And not for the sake of frank stupidity such as "showing the flag" or "presence." The flag does not frighten anyone, and the presence of some of our surface ships cause a revival in foreign media exclusively in the “Humor and Satyr” section.

There is a more important thing than all these parades and demonstrations of everything and everyone. It is the protection of objects on our borders, and, in fact, borders themselves.

For example, the Northern Sea Route. Or the Kamchatka Peninsula. Or sea from Kamchatka to Sakhalin. That is such a place in our area, where the air is not always possible to get. About the way on the ground (where it is), I generally keep quiet.

No, of course, you can stick the whole coastline with shooters and babakhalkami, but all that is connected with the personnel and their life support will still fall on the ships. And then, we go to the map, look at our northern and eastern coastal lines, and we understand that, well, its ...

So no matter how it seemed that the fleet is a luxury, without the Navy, alas, no way.



Yes, dear. Yes, for a long time. Yes, not all can now. So what?

And nothing. We must still look to the sea. From there came, it comes the threat will come. Until they invent antigravity, and the battleships will not start flying. So far, the cheapest and most efficient transport over long distances - the sea.

Unfortunately, our fleet is far from being what it used to. We finish the ships, which inherited from the USSR, while they themselves are unable to build something like this. We don’t even talk about monsters like “Orlans”, here 1164 is still a problem to be repaired, not like building. Alas, it is. The construction of large surface ships of the ocean zone is not for modern Russia.

And at exhibitions you can grind projects such as a supercarrier, destroyer, and so on, up to infinity. Expositions and forums exist to show off there. No projects with exhibitions takes seriously. Give to all in metal and fully armed and in the sea.



As a result, the Russian navy, even theoretically and in a patriotic frenzy, can not be compared with the US. It looks about as sad as a comparison of our Pacific Fleet and the Chinese PLA Navy. And to catch up (at least) the Chinese in the Pacific, we really can not. And there, besides the Chinese, there is also a Japanese fleet, which also progresses from year to year.

And the option that if not able to equalize chances, then at least leveling the superiority of our potential (and there are all potential ones), is needed like air.

And here, willy-nilly, but you remember that all is not lost in some branches of shipbuilding. Advanced seamen already understand where I'm going. Yes, dear, it is there. By looking water.

We have not yet forgotten how to build submarines. It is a fact.



We build the best nuclear submarines in the world. This is also a fact.

Submarines have such qualities as stealth, autonomy and increased combat stability. Last - I meant that, unlike surface ships, submarines move in three-dimensional space, which gives them an undeniable advantage over any other class of ships.

I will not even talk for a long time about the advantages, rather a short excursion into historywhen in the First World War (and also in the Second World War) the island empire of Great Britain was actually brought to the brink of starvation by German submarines, which had sunk all merchant ships indiscriminately.

Today is also very effective, especially if you remember how much everything everyone gets by sea, from the USA to the UK. I generally keep quiet about Japan, for them the sea blockade is the most even today.

By the way, immediately it is worth saying that the sea is not for us to deliver everything, but to fish for pure fish. And then, even with the fleet who would venture to deny? Beach nearby, and on the shore ... Here. There is a difference, right?

Yes, submarines are very effective in the fight against surface ships, and I believe that they are even superior Aviation. They cannot fight with aviation, but with the modern working depth of a normal submarine, the plane is not so scary. And atomic and in general.

And then, the submarine still find necessary. With easy plane.

Now some will remember the Strugatsky and their "Inhabited Island". Creepy Island Empire and its flocks of white submarines.

And why not?

Atomic submarines due to their considerable size, high speed, depth of immersion and autonomy, but it makes no sense to use more noise in closed seas such as the Black and Baltic seas. But there is no one to fight with them, the coastal missile systems and the mosquito fleet of small ships with the same "Gages" decide everything.

And, I am sure, will decide how to.



But really oceanic fleets, Northern and Pacific ... Here there is something to think about. It and now submarines are only in the composition of these fleets, then only increasing the quantity and quality.

After all, nuclear submarines, perhaps, are the only large ships that we have not forgotten how to build.

If we are not able to build missile cruisers and destroyers, then maybe an exit in missile submarines? Yes, strategic missile submarines (PKK SN) are operatively related not so much to the Navy, as to the means of nuclear deterrence (SNF), nevertheless these are warships. And the volley of such a ship is no weaker than that of a surface colleague. About Stealth do not even talk.

The main RPK CH as part of the domestic fleet are boats of the project 667BDRM, carrying the X-NUMX ballistic missile submarines (SLBMs) ​​R-16PM of various modifications.



K-51 «Verkhoturye"
K-84 «Ekaterinburg"
K-18 «Karelia»
K-407 «Novomoskovsk"
K-114 «Tula»

They are in service in the Northern Fleet. One boat (K-117 "Bryansk") is under repair.

The forerunners of these boats were ships of the project 667BDR. Each boat carries the same number of P-29P missiles - 16 units.

But from the 14 boat project afloat today only three, Pacific K-223 "Podolsk", K-433 "St. George the Victorious ”and K-44“ Ryazan ”. And yes, the first two are likely to be disposed of, which we wrote about in our time with great regret.

Of the seven cruisers of the 941 project, only Dmitry Donskoy TK-208 remained in service in the Northern Fleet, which is used to test the Bulava R-30 SLBM.



But it is under the "Mace" built ships, which are considered the pinnacle of perfection for submarine cruisers. This is a 955 project, each submarine of which will carry X-NUMX P-16 missiles.



K-535 The Yuri Dolgoruky, the first cruiser of the 955 project, is part of the Northern Fleet. K-550 “Alexander Nevsky” and K-551 “Vladimir Monomakh” are determined to serve in the Pacific.

Further development of the project - more advanced ships with an index 955А are currently at different degrees of readiness and construction. "Prince Vladimir", "Prince Oleg", "Generalissimo Suvorov", "Emperor Alexander III" and "Prince Pozharsky".

In general, if the number of PKK CH Russia lags behind the United States, this lag is not so critical. But China, the UK and France, we go around. However, individually, rather than all at once. But in general, it is doubtful that all the above powers suddenly decide to fight with us. Nevertheless, there is a fragile parity, even if the British and French have almost all the means of nuclear deterrence of the sea-based, which is not to say about us.

But after all, the Navy is not alive with strategic cruisers, right? As I noted above, RPK CH is a warship, but really limited in use. "The whole world into dust" - this is just part of them.

But there are just submarines, the possibilities of which are more modest, but then and not every day it is necessary to destroy countries and continents, isn't it?

In the Northern Fleet, veterans of the 671РТМК project are serving (more precisely, they are living out).

So which fleet does Russia need?


In the good old Soviet times, these boats built 26 units. Today there are only three veterans left: B-138 “Obninsk” in the ranks, B-414 “Daniel of Moscow” and B-448 “Tambov” under repair. B-414 most likely from repair will go to the decommissioning and disposal, sadly, but on the other hand, so much and do not live at all. Most likely the B-138 with the B-448 is waiting for the same fate, the boats are outdated in all respects.

Next we 971 submarine project.

Good boats, in their time, they caught up with the American Los Angeles-class submarines in terms of noise level and, in general, the boats were quite breakthrough in many components.

Of the 14 submarines of the 971 project, which were part of our Navy (the fifteenth boat was immediately given to India), today there are 11 left.



Northern Fleet:
K-317 "Panther"
K-335 "Cheetah" - in the ranks
K-154 "Tiger"
K-157 "Vepr"
K-328 "Leopard"
K-461 "Wolf" - under repair

Pacific Fleet:
K-419 "Kuzbass" - in the ranks
K-295 Samara
K-322 "Sperm Whale" (there is information that after the repair will go to India)
K-331 "Magadan" (there is information that most likely they will write off)
K-391 "Bratsk" - under repair

If you look at it like this, the picture seems to be sad, but there is a nuance. The main armament of this type of submarine, the Granat missile system, to put it mildly (very softly), is outdated. Now it is possible to re-equip boats for newer Onyx and Caliber complexes, which will definitely have a positive effect on the capabilities of the boats.

NPS project 945.



These boats are and they are not at the same time. The titanium hull of the boats made them smaller in terms of size, but significantly increased the cost. In total, 4 boats were made, two under the 945 project, B-239 Karp and B-276 Kostroma, both are under repair from which they are likely to be recycled, and two boats from the 945 project, B-336 Pskov and B-534 "Nizhny Novgorod", which are still in the ranks of the Northern Fleet.

NPS project 949A.



"Antey" is generally a separate topic. The last members of the family of "aircraft carrier killers" suddenly find a second wind.

We are again talking about the modernization of the Granite PCR P-700 on the Onyx P-800 or on the very same Caliber. Global alteration of launch containers is not required, respectively, 24 missiles - this is nice. Not all, but nonetheless.

To date, 11 "Anteyev" left 8. But the former rather narrowly specialized "killer aircraft carriers" will become more versatile and versatile ships.

Northern Fleet:
K-119 "Voronezh"
K-410 "Smolensk"
K-266 "Eagle" - in the ranks

Pacific Fleet:
K-150 "Tomsk"
K-456 "Tver" - in the ranks
K-132 "Irkutsk"
K-186 "Omsk"
K-442 "Chelyabinsk" - under repair

One submarine (K-329 "Belgorod") is rebuilt in a special purpose boat.

Well, the cherry on the cake, submarine project 885.



While one, K-560 "Severodvinsk." Low-noise, the latest, capable of a single volley to shoot 32 "Calibra" boat. But already under construction, moreover, within the framework of the improved 08851 project, the 6 APL: K-561 Kazan (already launched), K-573 Novosibirsk, K-571 Krasnoyarsk, K-564 Arkhangelsk, Perm, Ulyanovsk.

What is the result, in which we do not even take into account diesel-electric submarines? About DEPL need to speak separately, because after all this weapon very much melee, more suitable just for inland seas such as the Black and Baltic.

Can the quantity of submarines given above be considered sufficient?

If you simply operate with figures of two fleets, then everything seems to be nothing.

27 multi-purpose submarines, of which the 12 is in service, the rest of the 15 - under repair, who is upgrading, and someone will not be back in service. And the number of planned submarines to be disposed ranges from 4 to 6 according to various sources.

Of course, this amount can by no means be considered sufficient. In no case. Yes. In terms of numbers, we rank second in the world after the United States, surpassing all others, but we should not forget that in the event of an open confrontation by NATO, the submarines of the United States will join the submarines of France and Great Britain.

Even if the construction of the “Ash trees” of the 08851 project will go according to plan, without “shifts to the right”, this will only compensate for the cancellation of Soviet-built age boats.

It is clear that the boat projects 671РТМК, 945 and 971 sooner or later go down in history, and they will need to be replaced. Will it be "Ash" or some kind of boat of the next generation "Husky", while the question.

Radically improve the situation today with the update of the Russian fleet is difficult. It is difficult, if only because the fleet is very expensive, and most importantly, a slow brainchild for any country. Even for the USA. What can we say about more than modest Russian opportunities.

So is it worth spending the time, money and brains of designers to create empty projects of the type of aircraft carrier "Storm" or destroyer "Leader" if today we simply are not able to start producing elementary propulsion systems for destroyers and frigates? If our ships go to the Chinese diesel engines?

Why then all this? Isn't it easier to concentrate efforts both human and financial (and again it’s not enough money) on what we are still strong at?



And who said that a powerful nuclear submarine fleet could not become a reliable shield for a country with such a huge coastline?
Author:
137 comments
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  1. Vard
    Vard 2 November 2018 05: 31
    +3
    I agree with the author on the topic of the submarine fleet ... And the fact that our fleet is gradually being equipped with small but well-armed missile ships seems correct ... The concept of unacceptable damage works well with both NATO and the US ...
    1. gunnerminer
      gunnerminer 2 November 2018 06: 00
      +7
      - equipped with small but well-armed missile ships -

      Small ships correspond to the reduced technical capabilities of shipbuilding enterprises. The term - good armament - is interfered with by the scanty number of units of the main ammunition. For one salvo there is a complete lack of maritime infrastructure for providing ammunition (PRTB, floating submarines of RTOs, submarines). Slowly this means the pace of deliveries is snug, timing is short. tightened.
      1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
        Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 2 November 2018 07: 50
        +11
        Quote: gunnerminer
        Slowly this means the pace of supply is snail, the terms are unnaturally prolonged.

        The nuclear-powered submarine Kazan was laid down in 2009 and has not yet been commissioned. Project 20380 corvettes are built for 7 years. Such pace of construction. In the Achtung ship repair, the floating dock PD-50 of the 82nd shipyard was sunk, which was transferred to Sechin's company in 2016. And there is no need to shoot anyone, it is better to listen to what experts in "legal proceedings" say, here is a ready-made solution to the problem: it is necessary to develop strategies, roughly speaking, for the PR of legal proceedings, "said Elizaveta Peskova. - To do this, you need to show young people that there is confidence in the future, that this is a prestigious job, that it is not considered something to be ashamed of.


        Visit of Lisa Peskova to a shipyard in Crimea

        1. gunnerminer
          gunnerminer 2 November 2018 07: 53
          +1
          The American customer reacted quickly to the rise in the cost of his project by switching to MAPL Virginia. With the advancement of 855M the project went along the Ustinovo-Potkovsky fairway. Without taking into account budgetary and technological realities. Note that the coastal simulator has not yet been made for the crews.
        2. tlauicol
          tlauicol 2 November 2018 08: 48
          +7
          A nightmare of some kind! This d.ura even cartoons about the "legal proceedings" can not be removed. This is the finish guys!
          1. gunnerminer
            gunnerminer 2 November 2018 10: 43
            +9
            Another same patroitka has grown up. From a family of patriotic television presenters Strizhenov.
            “She was educated in England. Now she lives in New York while her mother is fooling around the gullible population of Russia, ”- such a signature was published under a selection of photos posted on the twitter account“ Elective Navka ”.

            According to the author of the compilation, Anastasia was educated in the UK and lives in the United States, and Ekaterina Strizhenova leads the program “Time Will Show” on the Russian state channel, which tells about the successes of the Russian authorities and the decay of the West.

            In the comments, users hastened to explain that Anastasia had a son, and "now he is also a US citizen."
        3. san4es
          san4es 2 November 2018 09: 41
          +1
          Quote: Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
          ... for public relations proceedings, said Elizaveta Peskova. - For this you need to show the youth ...

          hi ... Those who listen to her "thoughts" will not go beyond social networks and Mc.Donaldsov ... What do they care about shipyards? .. And they will not stay in the design bureau either (if they get more ...).
          The girl was born on January 9, 1998 ... After the divorce of her parents, she entered a Norman boarding school. After receiving a secondary general education, the girl entered the Paris School of Arts, which is located in the Louvre. In parallel, Lisa becomes a student at the Moscow ISAA (Institute of African and Asian countries). At Moscow University, the girl did not stay. Having abandoned training, our heroine returns to Paris. Elizaveta Peskova (photo below) entered the business school there. - Read more on FB.ru: http://fb.ru/article/347958/elizaveta-peskova-biografiya-i-lichnaya-jizn

          1. gunnerminer
            gunnerminer 2 November 2018 10: 41
            -4
            About the Ash project, things didn’t go beyond a beautiful picture.
            1. bayard
              bayard 3 November 2018 03: 38
              -2
              Donetsk.
              Expensive toy came out - 2 times more expensive "Borea". Difficult in production and operation. Therefore, the fleet requested an analogue of the 971 project, i.e. Husky. There was not enough money - the war in Syria, Donbass, sanctions, oil prices fell (now, of course, it won back, but there is a budget rule) ... And there is a very real possibility of an imminent war. Large . Real. Nuclear. For such a war, the fleet may not have time to build, just money wasted for the wind ... Before WWII, we also laid the ocean fleet - with battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and he stood in the bases throughout the war, hiding from aviation ... Money, forces and the sea ended in time, and all the expected power was in 41st was on the stocks in varying degrees of unfinished ... After the war, dismantled as unnecessary and obsolescent.
              And now it may turn out so. And apparently foreseeing this, it was decided to freeze all these sea monsters a little, and to throw forces and means for rearmament of the ground forces, aviation and RTOs, which can be built quickly, arm well and have time for war.
              And there was also hope for improved financing from next year onwards — offshore capital is returning to the country, and to new domestic offshore zones. They are already being painted on various investment projects, low interest. Maybe something will break off for the naval needs ... They say 71 trillion rubles have already returned (over a trillion dollars) - Khazin voiced, and he is an informed person.
  2. tlauicol
    tlauicol 2 November 2018 05: 40
    +14
    S: "And in general, it's high time to decide, are we (Russia) a sea or continental power?"
    -

    Guys, which hand is more important to us: right or left? let's already - decide ..
    write more that Russia is a great one-armed power, we don’t historically need a second one, right?
    1. arkadiyssk
      arkadiyssk 2 November 2018 11: 23
      +3
      Exactly - it’s not what kind of power we need to be determined. Is there a threat to us from the sea? This will determine the need for the fleet and its power. Well, since it’s clear to anyone that the threat from all seas is and will lead to the blockade of the country, and the blocking of our most important industrial hubs (gas production, port infrastructure, pipe gas transit), it means there is nowhere without a powerful fleet. And some submarines will not help, as if a man of a mantra would not sing.
      1. bayard
        bayard 3 November 2018 03: 48
        0
        Donetsk.
        Turbines. Turbines. And again - DIESEL!
        What is the use of cases without a flame motor? One shame.
        And one more question about the ship's air defense - what do "Poliment" and "Redoubt" think of themselves?
        But "Pantsyr-M" pleases.
  3. gunnerminer
    gunnerminer 2 November 2018 05: 55
    +5
    We need a balanced, meeting the modern requirements of the struggle at sea.
  4. Chichikov
    Chichikov 2 November 2018 05: 57
    +2
    So which fleet does Russia need?
    The answer is one, strong!
    How to solve this problem, taking into account the current circumstances, is probably better known in the USC, the Ministry of Defense and, perhaps, experts in the field of the Navy, and not bloggers and journalists. We all have daily "wishes", but before we implement them, we look into the wallet.
    1. Dante Alighieri
      Dante Alighieri 2 November 2018 16: 37
      +3
      They certainly know there. They also have 7 spans in the forehead. Yes, only to the point of being so smart, when in every little war, in the end, ordinary men and guys pay with their lives? Remember once and for all, the manifestation of courage and heroism is not only the embodiment of the highest human qualities. This is primarily the result of the fact that someone from such "knowledgeable" made a serious mistake and did not complete his job. And since the number of heroes who paid with their blood for the bungling of higher officials, in our country there is a constant value - which is not an indicator of the quality of the managerial staff of those who must make decisions. And I don’t need to talk about the human factor and the kurtosis of the performer, because mistakes are one thing, and betrayal is quite another, even if it was unintentional and expressed in a banal thirst for profit.
      Let the giraffe be wrong
      But it’s not the Giraffe who is guilty,
      And the one who shouted from the branches:
      - The big giraffe - he knows better!
  5. tlauicol
    tlauicol 2 November 2018 06: 00
    +5
    S: "And who said that a powerful nuclear submarine fleet cannot become a reliable shield for a country with such a huge coastline?"
    - a strange conclusion.
    a fleet is desperately needed, but we cannot build it. let's rivet submarines and guard the sea borders? - so we will stop catching fish, not like trading and getting oil
  6. gunnerminer
    gunnerminer 2 November 2018 06: 01
    -3
    - It will be the Ash-tree or a certain boat of the next generation Husky, while the question is. -

    Kakrtina is quite clear. The number of questions is reduced every six months.
    -
  7. gunnerminer
    gunnerminer 2 November 2018 06: 06
    +3
    - Until one, K-560 Severodvinsk. Low noise

    In theory.

    -But already under construction-

    It is not the construction process itself that matters, but the result, and in what time frame this result is achieved.

    - The last representatives of the family of "killer aircraft carriers" suddenly gain a second wind. -

    A second wind will appear when these ships will be part of the compound at the main event. Not one aircraft carrier is even attacked by their crews. Not to mention killing. An element of bragging. At least four MAPLs are needed to ensure the connection of these SSBNs. There are none. And it is not known when will be. With the modernization of even the old MAPL 971VA project ambush.
  8. gunnerminer
    gunnerminer 2 November 2018 06: 09
    +8
    Fleet reconnaissance is the eyes and ears of the fleet. But there is practically no reconnaissance aircraft. None of the fleets has AWACS and U. Planes are forced to operate Be-12s, obsolete by the mid-60s. Tu-142M and IL-38N are scanty, not enough even for peacetime. Just one modern RZK for all fleets.
  9. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 2 November 2018 06: 19
    +19
    If Peter I needed a fleet, he was worth it. If Ushakov was interested in a strong fleet, he created it. If the USSR was thinking about maritime borders, they defended themselves despite the fact that all technologies were developed on their knees. If effective managers and the sale of raw materials are more important to Putin, then the power supply of a special category enterprise can be put out of action as a result of a power surge, and the Russian fleet will be replenished with yachts and boats for walks rather than warships ... I already gave an example for oil, when, as a result of an increase in prices for it, the resulting surplus in the amount of 55 000 000 000 $ WHERE SHARE? belay
    You can break your forehead, proving to me the opposite. But, while shipbuilders earn less than bank employees, there will be no sense ...
  10. jonht
    jonht 2 November 2018 06: 20
    +12
    Many submarines, good and different!
    But byada, it is necessary to have minesweepers and at least small anti-submarine ships available for their exit from the bases, for the safe escort of submarines to "free", otherwise the insidious enemy can poke mines, al he himself will hide nearby and just shoot the boat at the exit....
    All the same, the fleet must be balanced.
  11. gunnerminer
    gunnerminer 2 November 2018 06: 21
    +1
    The fleet begins on the shore. The buildings of the former VVMU im.Frunze on Vasilyevsky Island, the former VMMPP n.a. Leninsky Komsomol on Lermontovsky Prospect, the VVMIU named after Dzerzhinsky are a gloomy sight. Especially the building of the former VVMUPP. Small trees grow on the ledges, the windows are knocked out, on the walls of the warning signs to passers-by to be careful because of the possible fall of parts of the building. In April 2018, on the anniversary of the school, graduates were not allowed to enter the study buildings and dormitories so as not to show windows and doors entangled with a barbed wire. 40 years. The UKOPP buildings in Vladivostok and St. Petersburg look a little better.
  12. Fedorov
    Fedorov 2 November 2018 06: 24
    -14
    Roman! You are not "all-consuming, stop writing that! We will take everyone for Pitsunda and on Kukan. Everything has its time."
    1. Tashkent citizen
      Tashkent citizen 2 November 2018 07: 49
      +9
      Oh well. Who are "we? Will you personally "take" them?
    2. gunnerminer
      gunnerminer 2 November 2018 07: 54
      -1
      Forward! No one forbids even grabbing.
  13. gunnerminer
    gunnerminer 2 November 2018 06: 26
    +10
    There are only a few modern base minesweepers. There are scanty number of modern minesweepers. During the operational and threatened periods, all ships maneuver only accompanied by minesweepers. There are no universal supply transports. There is no universal transport ship. The Irtysh hospital ship is the only one for all four fleets. If events in the Eastern Mediterranean begin to develop swiftly and violently, then no one knows where to put the wounded and struck.
    1. Fedorov
      Fedorov 2 November 2018 06: 37
      -16
      Help will arrive from the Caspian Sea in the form of "Calibers. They don't sleep there .." I answer Shoigu. .Maybe from submarines Mediterranean, they are there, you do not know? We won't talk about the wounded. Any "freight train will take them. But about the troupes of enemies ..."
      1. gunnerminer
        gunnerminer 2 November 2018 06: 40
        +1
        Gauges do not fly. Ammunition of the Caliber complex flies. Only for stationary purposes. For guaranteed defeat, it is necessary to convince the enemy crew to stall and drift until the rocket approaches.
        1. Fedorov
          Fedorov 2 November 2018 06: 51
          -4
          A naval version of "Caliber does not occur to you? 300 km in a straight line, fired from a torpedo tube?"
          1. gunnerminer
            gunnerminer 2 November 2018 07: 03
            +7
            From a torpedo tube. For a stationary, fixed target. A missile is subsonic. For a guaranteed target hit, a volley should be formed of 50, at least missiles. Four Caliber Maximum missiles can be delivered to Varshavyanka. Such Varshavyanki are available only at KChF. Operation on coastal targets is guaranteed not to allows the lack of short-range reconnaissance aircraft and space satellite constellations, including the LCC (Skyegotova).
            1. jonht
              jonht 2 November 2018 08: 39
              +1
              Here you are wrong, "caliber" is the general name of the project, within the project itself, several types of missiles have been developed and adopted, including Caliber-NK, Caliber-PL, and Caliber itself, while Caliber-NK is anti-ship and has a shorter range, since its speed is oversound in the initial section and more than 3 swings in the final section. According to the range, they write different data, but all indicate at least 300 km and no more than 500 km. Caliber-PL is just an adaptation of this complex to its use from a submarine. As far as we know, the external differences of the missiles themselves, if there is something insignificant, but the launch blocks and other related things may differ.
              1. gunnerminer
                gunnerminer 2 November 2018 08: 45
                -2
                We are talking about the Caliber complexes, located on the diesels Varshavyanki, and at the MRK.

                -but all indicate at least 300 km and not more than 500 km. -

                Depends on the profile of the flight tractor. For a successful salvo, you will have to use from a distance of about 150 nautical miles. With the use of electronic warfare equipment. Together with naval attack aircraft. Which is not. Otherwise, the enemy will not allow it to approach the indicated distance. 300 or 500 km is the maximum range in range flight conditions in a straight line. To organize a volley, the range is taken to be no more than 75% of the maximum. During the fighting, the crews of Varshavyanka used ammunition of the Caliber complex for stationary purposes. Subsonic, without the possibility of correcting the trajectory.
                1. jonht
                  jonht 2 November 2018 08: 56
                  0
                  And I think that they fly more than 300 km, even taking into account the flat trajectory, here if "Uranus" is enough, a small rocket flies within 300 km, then the Caliber-NK must fly further. But we do not need to know this information, let alone the enemy. drinks
                  1. gunnerminer
                    gunnerminer 2 November 2018 09: 19
                    -1
                    It’s possible to draw a flight range, but it’s more difficult to provide reliable and continuous target designation for the drawn range. Over the horizon it’s a maximum of 30 miles. Without shock naval aviation and reconnaissance it’s impossible to use the full ammunition characteristics of the enemy. Only against a primitive enemy equipped with no aircraft, air defense and electronic warfare less use such ammunition. Military personnel using guided ammunition in a complex, together with electronic warfare equipment, external target designation sources, and aviation can cause unacceptable damage to the enemy. Given UTC's ammunition, it is possible to use it only as part of a ship’s combination. You must wait for this for years before 15, judging by the pace of transfer to the customer of TFR.
                2. Days
                  Days 2 November 2018 15: 12
                  -2
                  This is your Ukrainian Neptune subsonic. A RCC Caliber when approaching the target goes in three swoops.
          2. Korax71
            Korax71 2 November 2018 20: 26
            +1
            And who will let it go to the opening line of fire ???? what farting steam did you get to the same aug for 300 versts to get ??? plus air defense systems and about no one canceled. How many will not reach the fastest speed cr to the target? Who will give out guidance? or do you think the potential enemy is so stupid that he will not look for a potential opponent ???? listen to you so one cr caliber in the anti-ship version can all the fleets of the world feed fish fish.
            1. Botanologist
              Botanologist 2 November 2018 23: 00
              0
              pl WILL NOT BE PASSED 300 km to AUG? And why? What is the coverage area of ​​the PLO AUG duty facilities? If there were many cases when the submarine entered the AUG order, and no one suspected that they were going with an "escort". And the effectiveness of the air defense AUG does not need to be calculated from advertising brochures. She, in fact, raises doubts.
              1. gunnerminer
                gunnerminer 3 November 2018 05: 45
                -2
                -If there were many cases when the submarines entered the AUG order-

                In words, a lot.
    2. Foxnova
      Foxnova 2 November 2018 11: 33
      0
      Alexandrite project
  14. gunnerminer
    gunnerminer 2 November 2018 06: 37
    -3
    -But from 14 project boats afloat today only three, Pacific K-223 "Podolsk", K-433 "St. George the Victorious "and K-44" Ryazan ". And yes, the first two are likely to be disposed of, which we wrote with great regret from time to time .-

    Because they turned into convenient targets for the most snotty naval combat crews. Their acoustic forms fell out of the hands of commanders and laboratory chiefs of vibration and noise of the compounds.
  15. rocket757
    rocket757 2 November 2018 07: 26
    0
    Our fleet is pride and sadness !!! At different times, both have to be tested.
  16. iury.vorgul
    iury.vorgul 2 November 2018 07: 27
    0
    K-407 «Novomoskovsk"
    Hometown patronizes !!!!!
  17. Ezekiel 25-17
    Ezekiel 25-17 2 November 2018 07: 43
    0
    Unfortunately, neither SSBNs, nor corvettes with "Calibers" will replace Russia's universal fleet. We need AUS, 2 combat-ready for the Pacific and Atlantic oceans.
    1. gunnerminer
      gunnerminer 2 November 2018 07: 59
      +5
      In the current situation, even the construction of RTOs, minesweepers, a mosquito fleet is at an unacceptable pace. Naval shock and reconnaissance, anti-submarine aviation are not equalized, a training base, auxiliary fleet. Large hydrographic vessels are not being built. Problems with manning the vessels of the auxiliary fleet. hiring a crew for the hydrographic vessel Romuald Muklevich on the Milpress website. Salaries are low, taking into account the basing of the vessel on KSF.
  18. gunnerminer
    gunnerminer 2 November 2018 08: 24
    +2
    “For public relations proceedings,” said Elizabeth Peskova. - To do this, you need to show young people that there is confidence in the future, that this is a prestigious job, that this is not considered something to be ashamed of .-

    Elizabeth’s career is growing faster than bamboo. She will probably become an adviser to the Head of the USC or the Navy Group on public relations. If she does not leave to live in Paris. request
  19. gunnerminer
    gunnerminer 2 November 2018 08: 35
    +6
    However, defense and security spending is noticeable - 5,4 trillion rubles a year. This is enough for the defense industry to develop. And yet, this is not so: key defense enterprises are either bankrupt or in crisis. The reason for this is simple: as long as the entire Russian political elite has real estate in the West, families, yachts and bank accounts, they don’t need real Russian defense or even dangerous. And voters can be shown cartoons, pictures and mock-ups of formidable weapons, which have no analogues in the world, to fuel national pride. Complex technical objects suffer first.
  20. EvilLion
    EvilLion 2 November 2018 08: 44
    -1
    The fleet must be air.
    1. gunnerminer
      gunnerminer 2 November 2018 08: 52
      -2
      Compensation for a partial shortage of surface and submarine ships should be heavy jet bombers, as part of naval aviation, but they were transferred to the Russian Air Force in 2011 by decree of the All-Russian Air Force, and few are produced, especially anti-submarine ones.
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 2 November 2018 12: 39
        -3
        Gunayavy, go to your donkeys already, tired of another bmpd.
    2. xtur
      xtur 2 November 2018 16: 04
      +2
      > The fleet must be airborne.

      and TS in the Ocean from where to receive?

      Suppose, with the help of the squadron / regiment / division of aircraft, some advanced theory of synthesizing aperture and any smart casing, we get some analogue of mobile ZGRLS.
      Without ZGRLS over the horizon will not work

      However, I'm afraid that calculating the price of such a mobile ZGRLS will show that a full-fledged AUG with everything that is supposed to be for it will turn out to be much cheaper.
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 2 November 2018 23: 30
        0
        And HQ ships give aircraft.
        1. xtur
          xtur 3 November 2018 00: 37
          +2
          > A control center is given to ships by planes.

          which must take off from somewhere, and a suitable island may not be at hand.

          And those planes that give TsU, just work at a distance from the main forces. Somehow weakly I imagine a similar scenario in the case of strategists.

          You seem to have not quite imagined everything that I said. Strategists, theoretically capable of blocking any ocean, should have a command center comparable to the launch range of their RC. I tried to outline how to get TS without AUG.
          That is, if the air fleet became a full-fledged alternative to the sea fleet, it should receive a missile in flight, comparable to the flight range of the KR / RCC

          So far, there is no one way to get such a control center for airplanes, therefore they are not able to independently solve those issues that AUG can solve in terms of monitoring communications in the ocean
          1. EvilLion
            EvilLion 8 November 2018 08: 56
            -1
            Aircraft with a range of 10k km and refueling. Yeah. In general, without islands and aircraft carriers troughs.
  21. Wilderness
    Wilderness 2 November 2018 09: 09
    +3
    Before you think about which fleet is needed, you need to decide on the goals and objectives of the state, how to achieve them and the limits of the use of force. And so it’s like impotent dreams about choosing a condom hi And the concept of the state must be clarified. Now this is understood as the sum of all power oligarchs, but their goals in the medium term are very at odds with the interests of the population.
    1. gunnerminer
      gunnerminer 2 November 2018 09: 13
      -3
      Yes. The fleet does not set tasks for itself. The fleet does not set tasks for itself. It is an instrument of the state. You can hit the enemy with a tool, plan a structure, or cut meat. I recall Baby Krylova’s fable about an abandoned damask steel. A combat damask under a bench is lying around, a man clings to it. I’m ashamed not to damask.
  22. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 2 November 2018 09: 41
    -1
    I fully support Roman, that's right, besides I’ll add that on the BF and CFL you can generally reduce the fleet to boats and a couple of buoys, because there it is so small and crowded that the survival of any ship is doubtful. It is necessary to develop the ocean fleets as the basis for the basing of nuclear submarines. The Black Sea Fleet should include submarines and ships of the third rank.
  23. yehat
    yehat 2 November 2018 10: 03
    +1
    in the article, the content does not match the title. she never answered the question - which fleet is needed. Contained only hosanna development of the submarine fleet.
    And which fleet is needed? We need a unified ship of the destroyer-level frigate, perhaps with specialization in the tasks of PLO, patrolling, air defense, etc. And not a vinaigrette of 10 unique ships, which are commissioned 1 per year. We need an industry for the manufacture and development of the filling of such ships, their updating, maintenance and replacement.
    We need submarines, we need coastal forces from minesweepers to watchmen. A small squadron of ships with a large radius is needed to protect trade and political interests, and they do not need speed above the merchant fleet. More important is autonomy and functionality. We need a contingent of landing ships to serve the borders, bases and elementary sales of equipment. We need reconnaissance ships, of two types — data collection, similar in appearance to simple yachts or boats, and larger ships — focal points for various kinds of operations, where there should be premises for the work of the headquarters. We need a substantially updated fleet of engineering purposes - diving, cranes, floating docks, tankers, etc.

    in fact, everything. no aircraft carriers, yachts for admirals, Orlan level cruisers, BOD

    oh yes, you still need to radically change the equipment of the ports. from mooring equipment, supporting infrastructure (for example, electricity and hot water) to garrison housing and perimeter security. Otherwise, I do not see the point in building a fleet.
    1. Roman Skomorokhov
      2 November 2018 11: 51
      +2
      Quote: yehat
      The article content does not match the title. she never answered the question - which fleet is needed.


      Everything corresponds there. Moreover, your comment confirms this. I turned on my brains and spoke for the further development of the submarine fleet. You have included your own and have written a whole concept of development.
      The key phrase is "turn on the brains." Everything was aimed at that, as it were.
      1. yehat
        yehat 2 November 2018 14: 08
        +1
        you made a mistake with the publication time. 25-30 years ago there was something to "turn on"
        and now only ponte can turn it on.
  24. Curious
    Curious 2 November 2018 10: 14
    +2
    Yes, it turns out that for hundreds of years everyone in the world was stupid and tried to build some kind of "balanced" fleets. And the casket just opened - rivet your submarines. And if you still convince yourself that these submarines are the best in the world, the country can sleep peacefully. The Germans, by the way, twice tried to rely on submarines. Both times are unsuccessful. Nobody repeated their attempts again. And then the new regiment commanders revived the idea at a new technical level.
    1. gunnerminer
      gunnerminer 2 November 2018 10: 56
      0
      Because the Germans could not fight the Allied naval anti-submarine aircraft, they had weak logistic capabilities to ensure the operational activities of the crews of their boats.
      1. Curious
        Curious 2 November 2018 13: 16
        +1
        And the current "allies" do not have anti-submarine aviation, as I understand it, and there are no problems with the "logistics capabilities to ensure the operational activities of the crews of their boats"?
        1. gunnerminer
          gunnerminer 2 November 2018 13: 28
          0
          It is unlikely that the Bundesmarine plans to attack its allies in NATO. The crews of the DKBF and KSF will not be able to create any problems for the Bundesmarine in the Baltic, in the North Sea, in the Mediterranean Sea.
    2. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 2 November 2018 19: 23
      -4
      there is also the development of technology, but submarines are the future of the fleet, coast-based aviation is needed ...... and surface ships of all kinds are of course needed, but in very limited quantities. The country has enough and 8-10 frigates, 10-20 RTOs for 3 fleets, minesweepers 10 for 3 fleets, and BF and CFL are enough for a pair of RTOs and a pair of minesweepers. Now surface ships of the first rank are clearly overabundant, and very much worthy of maintenance, repair and at the same time outdated. But there are not enough submarines, now there are only 6 strategists for the Northern Fleet and three Pacific Fleet, ...... it is extremely insufficient, all world stability and peace on earth, the survival of the Russian people and always humanity, is based on 9 nuclear submarines ..... but non-operational NK we feed all kinds of allowances and argue over the imaginary need for battleship-destroyers .... battleship-super-frigates
      1. Curious
        Curious 2 November 2018 21: 03
        0
        Urgent report to the Queen.
  25. Sagaidark
    Sagaidark 2 November 2018 10: 29
    +4
    The payroll of the fleet is strikingly different from the combat-ready one. Probably tsifirki calm the management, but the fact that in fact things are not in the best way, few people care. We have "partners" all around.
  26. Larum
    Larum 2 November 2018 10: 41
    +2
    Logic, pure logic.
    1) What money, such a fleet
    2) Surface ships are usually multifunctional, so they are also needed.
    3) Underwater - mostly kamikaze, the last chance, but there are fewer people
    4) Large are very expensive, then at least small. They can hide in the rivers.
    5) Many had similar problems, not the first. e.g. Germany, Korea, etc.

    So it won’t become a reliable shield, but a scarecrow - yes.
  27. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 2 November 2018 10: 50
    +12
    Yes, the submarines are very effective in the fight against surface ships, and I believe that in this even surpass aviation. But they cannot fight with aviation, but with a modern working depth of a normal submarine, the plane is not so terrible. And as atomic and all.

    Blessed is he who believes.
    Since WWII, the most terrible enemy of submarines is the plane. This infection buzzes somewhere there, in a different environment, shields the sea with the barriers of the RSL like a spider - and waits for operation. As soon as it arrives, it quickly enters the response area and poses several more barriers (catching a lion in the desert, yes ...). And after determining the exact area where the submarine is located, it starts throwing homing torpedoes.
    And all this is absolutely unpunished. Like a tower hunter.
    1. yehat
      yehat 2 November 2018 12: 05
      +4
      Americans seriously worked on Orions and Poseidons and they became a real threat to our submarines
      1. gunnerminer
        gunnerminer 2 November 2018 13: 25
        +2
        They were about 30 years old, as a real threat to Russian boats. Such were before perestroika. Now for the Poseidon crews the task has become easier, due to the small number of nuclear and diesel Russian submarines that can go to the main event.
      2. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 2 November 2018 19: 44
        -1
        you as a specialist .... then you should give the probability of detecting submarines at a depth of 200 meters, the width of the ocean and the number of orions necessary to overlap the Atlantic, Pacific and Arctic oceans .... otherwise empty words
        1. Hole puncher
          Hole puncher 2 November 2018 20: 54
          +1
          Quote: vladimir1155
          then they should give the probability of detecting submarines at a depth of 200 meters, the width of the ocean and the number of orions necessary to cover the Atlantic, Pacific and Arctic oceans .... otherwise empty phrases

          The probability will depend on the task, just get lost in the ocean (what's the point?) Or find enemy ships in the ocean and destroy it. In the first option, yes, this is a search for a needle in a haystack. In the second version, the catcher and the beast flees. AUG PLO will comb the ocean with active and passive means in wartime along the route and if passive means can be hidden by switching to an ultra-quiet mode, then this will not help from active means.
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 2 November 2018 23: 29
            0
            thanks for the answer, although without a single figure ..... tactical apl mainly in the Barents Sea and in Kamchatka, under the protection of their aircraft should work, And how difficult is it to catch a strategic one in the middle of the ocean? and ask for the numbers otherwise everything is just words ....
          2. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 3 November 2018 12: 38
            -3
            so, the respected hole punch got away from the concrete answer ..... the American admirals are afraid of Russian submarines as the most effective weapon on the sea ... and they hire Judas struggling with fruit stalks on the Internet, for example, recently a fake pro was thrown out and untwisted for huge amounts of money on one of the military portals the apparent ease of detecting a submarine .... this is a blatant lie .... orion can detect a modern submarine (underwater) in the strip ..... The main disadvantage is the short detection range. Magnetic anomalies quickly smooth out with distance. To determine the presence of an anomaly, it is required to pass from it no further than 1 ÷ 3 miles. At modern aviation speeds, this means almost directly above the boat. Moreover, the lower the flight, the easier it is to notice the anomaly. Accordingly, the boat, to reduce the likelihood of detection, can go to a depth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0 % B8% D0% B5_% D0% BF% D0% BE% D0% B4% D0% B2% D0% BE% D0% B4% D0% BD% D1% 8B% D1% 85_% D0% BB% D0% BE % D0% B4% D0% BE% D0% BA .... in other words, all half a hundred hundreds of Amersz orions can cover with anti-submarine search ..... 300 miles of water, and taking into account the shift of 50 miles ..... Swedish tantrums about the Russian submarines in the Gulf of Stockholm are not unfounded, not to mention the oceans ...... submarines are the most effective weapons on the sea! Strategic and other submarine forces must be radically increased! The course of the Russian Navy to increase the quantity and quality of submarines is correct and corresponds to purely defensive tasks and the dock of the Russian Federation! Keep it up!
          3. yehat
            yehat 5 November 2018 12: 27
            +1
            still simpler - the ocean is far from homogeneous, boats do not go anywhere
            they will not sail to England through the cape of good hope or in places where the depths are less than the length of the boat, therefore, areas where their position is probably much less, and even one Orion (or Poseidon) is able to comb through a very small territory in 1 flight. For example, Poseidon is able to spend about 10 hours in the air at a cruising speed of 900 km / h. if we assume that he spent half the time in the search area, then he will be able to densely comb through a strip of 4.500 km in length, which approximately corresponds to a square of 100 per 100 km or not very dense the entire Gulf of Mexico.

            therefore, the Poseidon link is able to completely comb through virtually any direction of submarine actions per day. and even more so. provide verification of the aug line.
        2. gunnerminer
          gunnerminer 3 November 2018 05: 44
          0
          It doesn’t owe anything to anyone. The probability of detecting an underwater object is calculated for specific conditions by nomograms in the TRPL (tactical leadership of submarines) or TRNK (tactical guidance of surface ships) of the Russian Navy. For calculations, it is not the width of the reservoir, but the area of ​​the area or the length of the search line , the number of allocated enemy forces and their own.
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 3 November 2018 21: 44
            -1
            in other words, you have confirmed that even the United States is not able to block the ocean .... they can only take control of a small area with the involvement of significant forces and means .... as required
  28. Tektor
    Tektor 2 November 2018 11: 18
    +1
    As a result, it is necessary to build Ash trees, while they can solve the tasks.
    The second way is the construction of Kalin, which differs from Lad from VNEU and 8 vertical shafts for launching hypersonic rocket engines.
    1. yehat
      yehat 2 November 2018 12: 06
      +1
      8 vertical shafts for launching hypersonic Raman engines


      Damn and not hypersonic of them can no longer run?
      1. Tektor
        Tektor 2 November 2018 15: 50
        0
        aren't hypersonic ones already running?
        Hypersonic simply has a larger dimension: length 10,9 m, diameter 1,06 m. Therefore, any smaller size will enter.
        Hypersonic torpedo tubes do not start.
    2. gunnerminer
      gunnerminer 2 November 2018 13: 23
      -1
      VNEU for the project boats Kalina is not ready.
  29. Yan Sergeev
    Yan Sergeev 2 November 2018 13: 43
    +4
    Right now, quickly putty in Syria for another victory!

    In the Russian Federation at the end of 2018 with large surface ships there was a situation of their complete "extinction":

    The old Soviet ships of the first ranks are apparently surviving in recent years. It is noteworthy that at the end of 2018, almost all of them are either under repair or rotting in anticipation of it:

    - Heavy nuclear missile cruiser (TAKR) "Admiral Kuznetsov" in 2018-2020 is being modernized in Severomorsk;
    - Heavy nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" from 2014 to 2021 is being repaired and modernized;
    - The heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser "Peter the Great" will get up for repair and modernization in 2019. It will run until early 2022;
    - The missile cruiser Marshal Ustinov was repaired for a long time and tediously in 2011-2016, and from 2019 this floating craft will be the only surface ship of rank I of the Northern Fleet in service for a couple of years.

    With the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet, the cruiser Moskva, everything is bad, it is threatened with a banal write-off. In the Pacific Fleet, the flagship, the guards missile cruiser Varyag, needs scheduled repairs and modernization by 2020. There is no point in mentioning the Admiral Lazarev heavy nuclear missile cruiser - it's just scrap metal, which is formally included in the Russian Navy, but since 1999 has been in a mothballed state. Thus, in 2019-2020 (possibly with an overlap in 2021), the missile cruiser Marshal Ustinov in the Northern Fleet will remain the only Russian warship of rank I in service.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 2 November 2018 14: 01
      +3
      Quote: Yan Sergeev
      - Heavy nuclear missile cruiser (TAKR) "Admiral Kuznetsov" in 2018-2020 is being modernized in Severomorsk;

      Campaign does not pass. Until the dock is reached, there is nowhere to upgrade it in the North.
      1. pin_code
        pin_code 2 November 2018 14: 46
        -1
        and with a dock it looks more like a sabotage than an accident
        1. Hole puncher
          Hole puncher 2 November 2018 20: 39
          -1
          Quote: pin_code
          and with a dock it looks more like a sabotage than an accident

          They say they saw a man in a spacesuit with a drill, and on a spacesuit star-striped ....
          1. pin_code
            pin_code 13 November 2018 14: 33
            0
            you don’t have to jerk, because local saboteurs are sitting in the capital
        2. gunnerminer
          gunnerminer 3 November 2018 05: 39
          -1
          Hacking and messing around in such a case will do damage to more than a whole regiment of saboteurs. The command of the northern flank of NATO in Trondheim has not spent a single torpedo or several kilos of explosives, and the strategic object has been sunk. do not.
          1. pin_code
            pin_code 13 November 2018 14: 35
            0
            rather, just a defective management from the Cabinet, which gave the plant for privatization
      2. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 2 November 2018 19: 45
        0
        they will upgrade it near the wall, and the dock will be raised, tea is not on the ocean floor
      3. Yan Sergeev
        Yan Sergeev 2 November 2018 21: 44
        +2
        A drowned dock is an ordinary event. This is the third recessed dock in Russia in 2018
        times https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHiyx-av4G0
        two https://www.korabel.ru/news/comments/plavuchiy_dok_zatonul_vo_vladivostoke.html

        And in Murman is not the first recessed specimen
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=pJboXAjtQEs

        Now it remains to drown the pier ... oh, the pier was also drowned the other day
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiuPRIjzOeg

        Oh yes, but raising a drowned dock is not an ordinary event. Only one case is known (Vladivostok, 2013), and even then Koreans were called
        1. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 2 November 2018 23: 31
          0
          the event is not ordinary, but not fatal
    2. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 2 November 2018 19: 32
      -2
      firstly there are many and no need for them, Ustinov copes with all the tasks alone despite the presence of a military conflict .... Nakhimova and Kuzyu are doing it, and apparently they have to do it. It is planned that Petit and Lazarev, who underwent dock repair, will be put back into operation ..... they will do even more than necessary. I wouldn’t repair Moscow, like Varyag. So cruisers will be more than enough and 1155 are planning to upgrade almost everything. The next 10 years, quite enough, NK of the first rank. The write-off of the next 5 years is only 956, 1135, and sharp-witted. Putting 2 frigates just around the corner. It is quite stability and an overabundance of NK, with an acute shortage of submarines, aircraft, and minesweepers.
      1. Hole puncher
        Hole puncher 2 November 2018 20: 47
        +1
        Quote: vladimir1155
        Quite stability and oversupply with NK

        All Soviet-built ships in 10 years will be in a state of scrap metal. They are now not at their best. Equipment 70-80-ies, spare parts for this trash can not be found. Ammunition (the same Granites and Volcanoes) has expired and it’s not safe to use them now, and their production was discontinued in the 90s. There is NO money for modernization.
        1. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 2 November 2018 23: 36
          -2
          well, they’ve already found money for Kuzya and Nakhimov, modernization with the replacement of the same old equipment, these two will last another 25 years (a lively example, sharp), I think that they will find money as a mmum for Petya, and they don’t need the first rank NK, Maybe more It’s not in vain that Lazarev was repainted for the company ...... Everyone decided to repair Moscow, Varyag Ustinov (already) these yes, they’ve been serving for 10 years ..... 1155 is not yet clear, but they are trying to deeply modernize, then it will work out very fleet
          1. gunnerminer
            gunnerminer 3 November 2018 05: 36
            0
            Repair and modernization is not carried out by the money itself, but by ship repair specialists, whom the cat wept. And old worn-out equipment, mainly taken out of Vaterland in 1946.
            1. Vladimir1155
              Vladimir1155 3 November 2018 12: 53
              -2
              there will be money and specialists and equipment will be there, there’s nothing complicated there, simple locksmithing and welding work, paint brushes, lubrication of units, fault detection. it's not hard. That’s what’s difficult. A rocket flies 10000 km and it’s right on target, it’s difficult to build a station into space, and we can do it, it’s difficult to design a nuclear reactor, we can only do two three countries in the world, so we can handle ship repair, too, Ustinov walks after repair. and others will go to the service do not worry
              1. gunnerminer
                gunnerminer 3 November 2018 14: 10
                -1
                By themselves, the money of specialists does not train. You need educational institutions with teachers, a modern base. You can’t see the rapid growth in the number of such institutions. Especially in the Far East. Severodvintsy are trying to agitate on the Far Eastern Star. But Sevmash and Severodvinsk Zvezdochka 5a cannot offer acceptable conditions. suffer from a shortage of workers. It came to the formation of the so-called scientific and production companies. As in the 60-80s. Rotations of turners, locksmiths conscripts.

                -That Ustinov walks serves after repair. and others will go to the service do not worry-

                Words and promises. They did not send Ustinov to the main event.
              2. 2 Level Advisor
                2 Level Advisor 5 January 2019 22: 40
                0
                why are we much more likely to talk about what will happen next than about what is now? where is the certainty that they are under repair 10 years before the cancellation will not all stand? practice just talks about it more and more .. and yes .. everything will be .. then
        2. gunnerminer
          gunnerminer 3 November 2018 14: 11
          -3
          That's right. The ride is over on this legacy.
  30. Hole puncher
    Hole puncher 2 November 2018 15: 14
    +4
    The novel, as always, is excessively naive. Submarines alone can only die heroically. Our submariners have no chance to influence the sea transportation of a likely enemy, and even more so in the concept proposed by Roman.
    The absence of modern mine-sweeping facilities guarantees the death of submariners in minefields, as was already the case in the Baltic during World War II. The absence of reconnaissance aircraft guarantees a low probability of detecting potential targets. The lack of cover from above guarantees the dominance of anti-submarine forces of the enemy and the useless death of submariners.
    I am referring Roman to the experience of wolf packs. Doenitz does not work, maybe he doesn’t know, but they lost when the Allies seriously hoped the anti-submarine defense potential of German submariners went to zero, they died more than did any damage.
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 2 November 2018 19: 39
      -2
      You write about the impossible ... you need to cover from above only the Barents and the Kamchatka region, then it’s physically almost impossible, and it’s not necessary and this is not a matter of comparing NK and PL, but the issue of developing aviation, long-range aviation, is relevant ..... but about the reduction to zero of the potential of the German submariners, more similar and taking into account the narrowness of the Danish straits. which are not in the ocean
      1. Hole puncher
        Hole puncher 2 November 2018 20: 38
        +2
        Quote: vladimir1155
        You write about the impossible ...

        I write about the reality of the implementation of the author’s intentions. He sees the main task of the Russian submarine as a violation of maritime communications of a potential enemy
        It’s very effective on today's day, especially if you remember how much everything the sea receives from the USA to the same Great Britain.

        Obviously, neither the Barents Sea nor the coast of Kamchatka are used for this. Even for the naval blockade of Japan (as the author mentioned) it is necessary to go to areas where our coastal aviation is absent, and the enemy’s anti-submarine weapons are a dime a dozen.
        1. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 2 November 2018 23: 39
          -1
          the author mentioned Japan covered by Russian coastal means, you can’t bother each orion transport ....
          or they are only merchants and will protect, but fail due to the intensity of flights
      2. Avior
        Avior 2 November 2018 20: 57
        0
        the Germans simply melted the Allies when they took them seriously.
        The submarine has its own niche, and it is not serious to make a child prodigy out of it.
        1. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 2 November 2018 23: 42
          -2
          I don’t see any arguments, all the words ... when they melted, where, how much? why not serious? I seriously consider declaring the submarine the most effective weapon on the ocean! prove to me
          1. Avior
            Avior 2 November 2018 23: 47
            0
            In the second world. All combat-ready melt.
            "effective weapons"
            1. Vladimir1155
              Vladimir1155 3 November 2018 12: 48
              -1
              but in Ruusko Japanese who drowned me? and where are now all the battleships of the three of the world and how many of them were melt in the first battle, including submarines.
    2. gunnerminer
      gunnerminer 3 November 2018 14: 14
      +1
      That's right. You can use submarines even at the nearest naval theaters efficiently, only with aviation and intelligence support. The current state of the KPUG and naval aviation will not allow submarine crews to even maneuver quickly, not to mention the use of ammunition.
  31. Usher
    Usher 2 November 2018 19: 11
    0
    Quote: Dante
    They certainly know there. They also have 7 spans in the forehead. Yes, only to the point of being so smart, when in every little war, in the end, ordinary men and guys pay with their lives? Remember once and for all, the manifestation of courage and heroism is not only the embodiment of the highest human qualities. This is primarily the result of the fact that someone from such "knowledgeable" made a serious mistake and did not complete his job. And since the number of heroes who paid with their blood for the bungling of higher officials, in our country there is a constant value - which is not an indicator of the quality of the managerial staff of those who must make decisions. And I don’t need to talk about the human factor and the kurtosis of the performer, because mistakes are one thing, and betrayal is quite another, even if it was unintentional and expressed in a banal thirst for profit.
    Let the giraffe be wrong
    But it’s not the Giraffe who is guilty,
    And the one who shouted from the branches:
    - The big giraffe - he knows better!

    do not confuse warm with soft.
  32. Korax71
    Korax71 2 November 2018 20: 42
    +2
    Of course, the submarine fleet is an indispensable and necessary thing. But !!!! I hope the author is aware of what forces and means are needed to withdraw, for example, an SSBN to the deployment line. Without an adequate and strong surface component of the Navy, all of our nuclear submarines will hang in their places of basing. and the mosquito fleet will not be able to cope with these tasks.
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 2 November 2018 23: 48
      0
      do you mean aircraft fast and efficient, or are ships slow and vulnerable? maybe coastal missile systems? not so simple, they then provide the output of the submarine and not battleships
      1. gunnerminer
        gunnerminer 3 November 2018 05: 33
        -1
        Coastal missile systems, for example, cannot traw land mines on fairways, fight enemy aircraft, and displace enemy submarines from the SSBN deployment areas.
        1. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 3 November 2018 12: 45
          0
          with aviation can, for example 400
          1. gunnerminer
            gunnerminer 3 November 2018 14: 06
            -1
            Aviation left with Gulkin nose. Even for peacetime it is extremely insufficient.
    2. gunnerminer
      gunnerminer 3 November 2018 05: 35
      0
      But circumstances force the command to rely on a mosquito fleet, which is also cut back by a sharp lack of minesweepers of all kinds, for example.
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 3 November 2018 12: 46
        0
        minesweepers are needed
        agree
  33. Avior
    Avior 2 November 2018 20: 55
    +1
    Instead of doing what you need to do what you get is the main message of the article.
    it is unlikely that this approach can be considered correct, it is simply a desire to do at least something.
    an unbalanced fleet will not be successful; the Germans have clearly demonstrated this in two wars.
    If you look at the fleets of other countries (I exclude Americans because of their uniqueness), it is clear that they are not preparing for a global nuclear war.
    getting ready for local wars and conflicts.
    and the farther, the more fleets, the basis of which are 1-2 light aircraft carriers or UDC with a bias in the use of aircraft and escort ships, usually either sufficiently large frigates or small destroyers.
    Well, France, Italy and England would have been like that for a long time, but China, South Korea, India, Australia, Spain, Turkey and even Egypt and Thailand join them.
    There are also submarines, but they are not put at the forefront.
    IMHO, an unbalanced fleet, it’s like beer without vodka - money down the drain.
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 2 November 2018 23: 45
      -2
      Russian Prussian always beat .... more from the Spaniards learn? China is another matter; it has colonial tasks and huge opportunities; NATO would have cited their aggressive tasks as an example.
  34. LeonidL
    LeonidL 3 November 2018 06: 20
    +2
    Hello our dear Nikita Sergeevich Khrushchev! ... More precisely, his contemporary incarnation, but I thought you had long since rested in Bose with silly theories about the fleet ... It is ridiculous to read that the Russian fleet evokes only satirical responses. This is just your personal biased opinion. A fleet is good only when it contains on an equal footing all the necessary components corresponding to the scale, goals and objectives of the country's political leadership. And submarine forces are only one of these components.
  35. barbiturate
    barbiturate 3 November 2018 06: 45
    0
    In my opinion, submarines are now the most controversial weapon for Russia. Our admirals testify that we don’t know the underwater situation even at the exits from our bases, patrol planes are not even looking at all !!! our boats, and they certainly go out on them, have recently been written about this in many publications. The United States has a large number of submarines and they probably graze near our bases, most likely deploy their FOSS (which they take their own Virginia from 30 km). What prevents Americans from laying the bottom of sensors in our waters? Yes, they did, probably, judging by the latest news.
    Before the creation of their FOSS in base areas and at transitions, before the creation of their effective base aviation PLO, before the creation of their own, small and extremely low-noise nuclear submarines with effective torpedo armament, they were hunters for enemy submarines (and not huge 971th and 885th ones, which they could go into open the ocean will not be given), for some kind of effective counteraction and the marine component of the nuclear triad there are very few hopes, extremely.
  36. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 3 November 2018 13: 06
    -2
    conclusions from the controversy
    1 PL the most effective weapon at sea for a country that does not have aggressive plans to seize foreign coasts
    2 search for submarines in the underwater position is difficult, the width of the search by the magnetic method is only 1-3 miles
    3 for the safe exit of nuclear submarines from bases, the Navy is obliged to ensure safety in the Barents Sea and the Pacific waters adjacent to Vilyuchinsk .. for it, minesweepers, coast-based aircraft, coastal weapons for engaging sea and air targets, surface ships such as frigate, corvette, BPC and other
    4 to move the Pacific Fleet base from Vladivostok to Vilyuchinsk Peropavlovsk Kamchatsky (the Port is open for vessels to call all year round and is capable of receiving ships up to 200 m long, up to 25 m wide and with a draft of up to 9 m), to strengthen the Pacific Fleet due to BC and CFL where it should not be ships of the first and second rank
    1. gunnerminer
      gunnerminer 3 November 2018 14: 05
      -2
      -4 move the Pacific Fleet base from Vladivostok to Vilyuchinsk -

      Budget and additional measures for air defense, missile defense.
  37. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 3 November 2018 13: 12
    0
    5 after the end of the Syrian conflict, all surface ships of the first threefold rank of the Black Sea Fleet, except landing ships, should be transferred to the oceans
    1. gunnerminer
      gunnerminer 3 November 2018 14: 04
      -2
      The end of this gas conflict is not visible in the large marine binoculars. How much the economy of Iran and Russia can withstand.
  38. VSrostagro
    VSrostagro 3 November 2018 18: 47
    0
    Struggle for funding? Or did I just think so?
    With the submarine fleet, too, everything is not going smoothly (to put it mildly),
    and you suggest "put all your eggs in one basket."
    In addition, the "demonstration of the flag" helps to avoid much greater loss of human, technical and financial.
    Most issues should be addressed with the help of the surface fleet.
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 3 November 2018 19: 07
      -2
      one pennant is enough to demonstrate the flag
      1. VSrostagro
        VSrostagro 3 November 2018 23: 15
        +1
        Tell us about such a super ship ...
        Which neither the repair, nor the replenishment of reserves, nor the rest of the crew does not need.
        1. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 4 November 2018 16: 27
          0
          tell me where are you going to show the flag for so long and why?
      2. LeonidL
        LeonidL 4 November 2018 05: 02
        +1
        "One pennant is enough to show the flag" - Would you like to rave, Mr. Nelson?
  39. M. Michelson
    M. Michelson 4 November 2018 12: 48
    +1
    Objections to the little things.
    1. Russia is an unambiguously land country, regularly trying to enter the ocean. But this was only possible during the Brezhnev era, when the country had a full-fledged oceanic fleet. (Why only then? Yes, because there were "overseas territories" - "countries of socialist orientation", with which it was necessary to maintain sea communication and where it was possible to locate naval bases and centers.)
    2. Russia still has only 2 full fleets (and the author himself acknowledges this). The rest are only in bays overlooking the ocean. And then another option appears: to try to strengthen the ocean fleets by weakening these actually fleets (within the limits of defense sufficiency, of course). Then we simplify the situation almost to American.
    3. Antigravity for cheap transportation of goods by air has long been there. It is used by airships. So, we must not only deal with submarines, but also with them.
  40. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 4 November 2018 19: 48
    -3
    the network is discussing the option of selling Kuzi to China, based on the price of Wakramidya and his relative youth, the price may be 3.5-4 billion dollars, or 230-262 billion rubles, that is, 10-11 Boreevs that the country needs so much (For China, a bargain for a new US costs $ 13 billion, and with the conversion to the difference in displacement, the new Kuznetsov would cost $ 8 billion, and China has tasks for the AB, unlike the Russian Federation) ????
    1. VSrostagro
      VSrostagro 4 November 2018 20: 53
      0
      Learn to cut off the "left" information.
      If you work in a bakery, bake bread at a cost of 10 rubles, will you go to a bakery in a neighboring microdistrict to buy the exact same loaf, just dried and for 50 rubles?
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 5 November 2018 08: 24
        0
        Well, the Indians bought it, the Zngachit and the Chinese can, you can discuss the issue of price
        1. VSrostagro
          VSrostagro 5 November 2018 12: 31
          0
          Hindus cannot build such
          and the Chinese put them on stream (they bake themselves).
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 5 November 2018 20: 59
            0
            Or can the Indians offer?
  41. Radikal
    Radikal 11 November 2018 15: 45
    +1
    So which fleet does Russia need?
    I think everyone will answer this question in about the same way - powerful, modern, oceanic! But if we extend the question, for example, which fleet does the leadership of Russia need, then there are options .... sad
  42. candidate
    candidate 16 January 2019 21: 39
    0
    Three elements as a triad
    Naval Base
    To keep this balance
    We need to develop them all