Military Review

The first storming of Orthodoxy failed. Kiev and Fanar started the correct siege

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The retaliatory sanctions of Ukraine announced by Russia became a reaction to the offensive against the Orthodox Church in Ukraine launched by Kiev with the support of the Patriarch of Constantinople. This is the opinion of many experts.


As we know, immediately after the announcement of Fanar’s decision (the Istanbul quarter where the residence of the Patriarch of Constantinople is located) regarding the “lifting” of the anathema from the schismatic communities and the introduction of the Stauropeancy of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation, the current situation and possible steps of Moscow were discussed in Ukraine for the protection of Orthodox Christians. And, probably, then it was decided to impose sanctions. And, most likely, this is just the beginning.



However, even without Russian pressure, the situation does not develop at all in the way that Kiev and Phanar wanted. Actually, this whole undertaking initially carried in itself colossal contradictions: Patriarch Bartholomew initiated this destructive process only at Poroshenko’s request, which is absolutely nonsense, since the Ukrainian Orthodox Church or some of its dioceses did not appeal to it. He hoped to compensate for this “awkwardness” by drawing in representatives of the UOC-MP in negotiations with the “exarchs” appointed by him or by holding a “unifying council” or at least gaining recognition of Constantinople Stavropigia (assigned to Orthodox monasteries, laurels and brotherhoods, as well as to cathedrals and religious schools, making them independent of the local diocesan authority and subordinate directly to the patriarch, in this case Constantinople) from at least some part of the UOC-MP.

But none of these options has worked yet. The Bartholomew "exarchs" in the UOC MP were not even allowed on the threshold, and the Ukrainian Orthodox broke off communication with the Communist Party, and any meetings with the emissaries of Fanar are now even impossible in theory.

With “Stavropegia” the matter did not go too far either. The only achievement in this direction was that Metropolitan Alexander (Drobinko), an odious character with a huge trail of immoral and just criminal stories, declared himself a cleric of the Church of Constantinople, probably believing that in this way he would set an example to a flock and shepherds who immediately rush under the omofor Bartholomew. However, given the reputation of Drobinko, it is unlikely that he could be an example for someone. Apparently, realizing his “false start”, he “turned on the back”, declaring that he had not gone anywhere, that he was not understood so, he was not going anywhere, and these were just “theoretical discussions”.



Also today, there is a low probability of participation in the “unification council” of the representative delegation of the UOC-MP or at least the group that could be presented as such in the “unifying council” planned by Bartholomew and the splitting factions. Even the already mentioned Drobinko, and he is still cautious, cautiously declares that he has not yet made a decision on his participation in the proposed gathering. That is, he had clear doubts as to who would take it.

The results of the meeting of the clergy of the Odessa Diocese of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (MP), which took place on October 22 on October 2018 in the Holy Assumption Odessa Monastery, were very revealing.

During the forum, all those present were asked to answer the question: “Do you support the preservation of the existing status of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the position of its head, the most blessed Metropolitan Onufriy of Kiev and All Ukraine?” The 413 clerics of the Odessa diocese who were present at the meeting answered 406 from the question “Yes”, 3 clerics answered “No”, and 4 abstained.

This result of the vote of priests speaks about the unconditional support of unity with the Moscow Patriarchate, the Odessa diocese.

The situation is similar in other Orthodox dioceses. And the numerical alignment is not in favor of the “auto-celebrities”.

Only in three regions of Western Ukraine, the schismatic "Kyiv Patriarchate" and the "UAOC" have a numerical advantage. In all other regions, the UOC of the Moscow Patriarchate is the undoubted leader in the number of parishes.

"Politnavigator" with reference to the blog of the Ukrainian political scientist Mikhail Pranda publishes a table showing the ratio of Orthodox and schismatics in the regions of Ukraine.

“There are about 5 thousands of monks and 207 monasteries in the UOC. In the "Kyiv Patriarchate" a little more than 200 monks and 62 monastery. For example, in the Ternopil region, there are three monasteries and five monks in KP, ”explains Pavl.

The first storming of Orthodoxy failed. Kiev and Fanar started the correct siege


However, the “unifying council” could have been held without the participation of representatives of the UOC-MP, however, there is another obstacle for it - the position of the UOC-KP leader Filaret Denisenko. Who agrees to participate in the “council” only if it is conducted according to its rules, under its leadership, and elects it to be the “head” of the “church” being created. He said bluntly: I was, is and will be the patriarch. His talks with the leader of another splitting group, the “Metropolitan” of the UAOC, Makariy Maletich, reached an impasse due to this approach of Denisenko.



Recall that in the 2008 year, an attempt to "break through" the autocephaly fell through because of this position of Filaret. It is unlikely that he will change his position. Especially when you consider that in the split, Denisenko turned out to be because of his commitment to the principle “it is better to be first in the village than the second in Rome.”

Recall that in 1990, after the death of Patriarch Pimen (Izvekov), Metropolitan of Kiev and Galician Filaret (Denisenko) was not only one of the contenders for election as a new patriarch. He was already elected patriarchal locum tenens and from 4 in May to 6 in June 1990 actually served as patriarch and led the work of convening the Local Council. But Filaret did not become the patriarch. In the summer of 1991, he also received the newly elected Patriarch Alexy II in Kiev and called for a struggle with autocephalous schismatics. As early as the spring of 1992, he participated in the Bishops' Council and urged the bishops to give the Ukrainian church canonical independence, although since 1990 the Ukrainian church administration had the widest autonomy in all internal church affairs.

Philaret was not enough even wide autonomy. Without becoming a patriarch of Moscow, he strove for patriarchism even within Ukraine, in which the then President Leonid Kravchuk and the nationalist radicals from the Verkhovna Rada supported the Metropolitan of Kiev.



Denisenko’s decisive steps were also spurred on by the promulgation in the media of very unpleasant information about his “second” life. The journalists accused the metropolitan of Kiev of cruel treatment of the clergy (the bishop Jonathan, one of the Ukrainian bishops, the monks hid from Filaret almost in the basement - they feared for the life of the bishop), in violation of monastic vows, resulting in a long life ward. Filaret children (!).

Filaret was accused of numerous financial abuses, misappropriation of church money, and bribery. The situation for him was critical.

However, the most unforeseen and sad for Filaret happened at the Bishops' Council of the Russian Orthodox Church in March 1992. Most of the Ukrainian bishops on the issue of the independence of the Ukrainian church did not support him, but the Russian bishops. The general voice of the Ukrainian high priests was this: our flock will not understand us and reject if, returning from the Council, we will inform it that now we are not part of the Russian Orthodox Church, but an independent jurisdiction.

The case turned out for Filaret to be universally reprimanded and demanding to retire and to ensure the holding of elections of the new primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate.

Deciding not to enter into confrontation with the council, Metropolitan Filaret said that in order to achieve church peace in Ukraine, he was ready to do everything that was demanded of him.

For the most part, the bishops decided to believe him and offered to give a god-oath to the oath that he would retire after electing his successor, although some called upon Patriarch Alexy II: “Do not believe Philaret, he will still deceive!”

And Filaret deceived. Returning to Kiev, he 7 on April 1992, on the feast of the Annunciation, in the Vladimir Cathedral declared that the Cathedral in Moscow was Golgotha ​​for him, where he was crucified, and he endured all this for the sake of the independence of the Ukrainian church.

The shaken Patriarch Alexy II addressed Philaret with a telegram-request: is it true that we know about your words?

Philaret answered (and this was his last answer to the Moscow patriarch) in the sense that it was not his, the Moscow patriarch, the deed, everything that happens in Ukraine in church affairs, belongs to the exclusive jurisdiction of Philaret himself, and no one else. It was a split.



About his intention to continue to remain “the patriarch” no matter what he says, he continues to decorate himself with new regalia.

So, he added to the "title" of the Kiev-Pechersk and Pochaev Lavra. Now Filaret is named as follows: "His Holiness and Beatitude (name), Archbishop and Metropolitan of Kiev - Mother of the Russian Cities, Galitsky, Patriarch of All Russia-Ukraine, Holy Dormition Kiev-Pechersk and Pochayevsky Laurel Sacred Archimandrite."

There is no doubt that the elderly, but still quite vigorous and energetic, Denisenko will not yield to anything. But his “election” is unacceptable because of his odiousness.

It is noteworthy that Ukrainian observers do not exclude the possibility of a tough confrontation between various splitting groups. There is nothing surprising in this - their “bishops” are quick at hand and are not inferior in decisiveness to “authorities” from 90's, they have at their disposal not only militants capable of “pressing out” temples, but also real “liquidators” capable of “executing” who will need



Recall that in May of this year, the "Kyiv Patriarchate" reported on an attempt to kill Denisenko, undertaken by the "bishop" of the same schismatic group, Sevastyan Wozniak.

By the way, some Kiev experts say bluntly that the ideal way out of the stalemate in which the “auto cease-workers” found themselves would be the death of Filaret. Which, however, is not going to die, and is surrounded not only by professional doctors, but also by experienced bodyguards.

From myself we add that the best sacred sacrifice than Denisenko is not to be found. And the corresponding preparation in the Ukrainian media has begun. In particular, the Ukrainian publication Observer publishes a message from Foreign Intelligence Lieutenant General Vasily Bogdan, who warns that "in connection with Ukraine getting autocephalous and preparing for the unification of churches, the Kremlin can go for the physical elimination of the" Patriarch of Kiev "Filaret." According to him, a similar danger also threatens the priests of the UOC-MP, who agreed to unite.



“On the religious issue, we can expect that not only canonical measures can be taken by the Moscow Patriarchate purely in a religious field. The physical elimination of those religious Ukrainian guides, on whom the holding of a unifying council and the creation of a single local Orthodox church in Ukraine, which Tomos will receive, depends on, ”Bohdan said, stressing that the key figures with whom the“ GRU can do ”are “Patriarch” Filaret and “Metropolitan UAOC” Macarius.

That is, maybe not even one, but two sacred sacrifices at once. Moreover, Poroshenko seeks to ensure that the Unified Local Orthodox Ukrainian Church (EPPTU) created by official Kiev is headed by the current bishop of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) - Metropolitan of Vinnitsa Simeon (Shostatsky).



This, in particular, was reported by journalist Stanislav Rechinsky, adviser to the head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine Arsen Avakov, a former press secretary of the head of the UOC-MP, Metropolitan of Kiev Vladimir (Sabodan).

“Everything is in the family, everything is in the family. And the church too. It is me that Poroshenko is lobbying in the United States and in front of the Ecumenical Patriarch the appointment of the head of the united local church, not Philaret. And his pocket Vinnitsa Metropolitan of UOC-MP Simeon. He tried to lobby for him even after the death of Metropolitan Vladimir, ”writes Rechinsky on Facebook.

We also note that Filaret has already been declared an “agent of Moscow”.

“Patriarch Filaret is a key figure in the Moscow game. Patriarch Kirill took a deep breath and put the head of the UOC-KP on the incompetence. And if everything breaks down this time, given the degree of electrification of the public, disappointment can turn into apathy, which will postpone the resuscitation of the “autocephaly” project for years. Especially if it is not needed by the proposed new Ukrainian authorities, ”laments the Ukrainian weekly Zerkalo Ne week.



A way out of this situation, the authors of the material see the creation of the Constantinople “exarchate” in Ukraine.

“The situation on the chessboard is fundamentally changed by the appearance of Constantinople Stavropigii - the actual accession of Ukraine to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Even if the Unification Council fails, for everyone it is possible to maintain unity with the Church of Constantinople, operating in Ukraine: to join it in an individual parish order. Judging by what is said in the final document of the Synod on Phanar, Kiev is only the first stage, then Stavropigia can appear all over Ukraine. Such a plan is called even more preferable for Constantinople, ”reports the publication.



However, this will only lead to the fact that, in addition to the UOC-MP and the aforementioned splitting groups, in Ukraine there will also arise an “exarchate” of the Communist Party of the Republic of Europe with an extremely few flock. Which, of course, will in no way lead to unity, but, on the contrary, will add confusion.

It seems that Bartholomew himself is already being mastered with the role of the Ukrainian "primate". So, according to the message of the Consul General of Ukraine in Istanbul Alexander Aman, the Patriarch of Constantinople met with the children of the ATO militants who died in the Donbas.



“Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew met with Ukrainian children, whose parents died in the Donbas, defending our land. Fatherly warm and pleasant meeting. And of course, every child received a gift from His Holiness, ”the diplomat wrote.

Of course, it is a pity for orphaned children, but hardly such an act of Bartholomew, who puts him on one of the sides of the conflict (in which the Orthodox fight with each other) as an army chaplain, corresponds to his pretensions to "universality".

However, the position of Bartholomew himself is very difficult. The wait-and-see position of most local churches does not mean support for his decision. The statement of the Holy Athos of the Holy Mount Athos in general is a disaster for Phanar. Recall that October 19 announced that Athos is administratively not subordinate to the Patriarch of Constantinople, since he is not the ruling bishop of Athos autonomy (the self-governing part of Greece, which is administered by twenty Athos monasteries, namely, the council of the igumens, and in between the cathedrals - official representatives of the dominant monasteries). And that is why “the decision of the Moscow Patriarchate (about breaking the canonical communion with Phanar) can in no way relate to Athos and the representatives of the Russian Church living there.”



And one more mistake, threatening with grave consequences, Bartholomew made, saying that “black propaganda” is being waged against him, since “our brothers Slavs cannot tolerate the primacy of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and our nation (Greek) in Orthodoxy”.

This chauvinistic statement will undoubtedly be appreciated not only by the Slavic, but also by all non-Greek churches, which will hardly taste to the new “dogma” about the “primacy of the Greek nation in Orthodoxy”.

Be that as it may, it can be stated that the “auto-workers” faced a whole “package” of problems and difficulties, both objective and subjective. Their first assault on the Orthodox stronghold of Ukraine failed. They have to go to a systematic and proper siege. For what first of all it is necessary to restore order in their ranks and determine who will command. This, in turn, can provoke a serious fight in the ranks of the besiegers.

The attempt of the Kiev regime to “unite the nation” leads to the emergence of new and rapidly expanding cracks that divide and associate yesterday's like-minded people.
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  1. 210ox
    210ox 24 October 2018 06: 22 New
    +9
    The decision was made in Washington, and not in Kiev or Phanar. By the way, the question is. And the Orthodox in the Baltic States, to which Patriarchate belong?
    1. Jolly oldster sailor
      Jolly oldster sailor 24 October 2018 07: 02 New
      +4
      The Moscow Patriarchate, but everything is complicated there, especially in Estonia, there is little help from us ... hi
    2. Slinqshot
      Slinqshot 24 October 2018 09: 02 New
      +5
      If the Russian Orthodox Church did not deal with its own well-being, but with its responses in other countries, this would not have happened.
      Honestly, in general, it is surprising that in the 21 century they are not engaged in flights to Mars, but in the dismantling of priests.
      1. Hlavaty
        Hlavaty 24 October 2018 21: 50 New
        0
        Quote: Slinqshot
        Honestly, in general, it is surprising that in the 21 century they are not engaged in flights to Mars, but in the dismantling of priests.

        Bravo! The most sober soap about this priestly bedlam!
        1. A.
          A. 26 October 2018 20: 27 New
          -2
          Bedlam, this is in your head.
          1. Hlavaty
            Hlavaty 26 October 2018 22: 31 New
            +1
            But I’m wondering what is in the head of those elderly men who allow others to call themselves “holy”, “blessed”, etc.? Is this a sign of adequacy?
            Especially now, when these "holy / blessed" so fiercely fight for the loot.
            You think that Christ probably rejoices when looking at these skirmishes in which nothing was left of his covenants.
            1. Mikhail Matyugin
              Mikhail Matyugin 26 October 2018 23: 58 New
              0
              Quote: Hlavaty
              But I’m wondering what is in the head of those elderly men who allow others to call themselves “holy”, “blessed”, etc.? Is this a sign of adequacy?
              Unfortunately, this is a problem. For me personally, there are two illustrative examples - when back in the 14 century, the truly holy ascetic Sergius of Radonezh was offered the title of Metropolitan, he refused in horror. Then at least they offered him a cross of gold - in recognition of his merits - at which he looked at those who offered, as at blessed ones, and said - why do I need this? my wooden little one is enough for me ...

              Or closer to our time - another great saint Seraphim of Sarov, an amazing ascetic, known for including three-year-old kneeling prayer on a stone. He never demanded to call himself "holy", etc. .. On the contrary, when they turned to him, he said - "what are you, because I'm just a sinful and miserable Seraph," etc.

              Just these two personalities - let them be your life guidelines.


              Quote: Hlavaty
              You think that Christ probably rejoices when looking at these skirmishes in which nothing was left of his covenants.
              Sometimes it seems that those who participate in a showdown for the loot simply either did not read the New Testament, or did not believe in it ...

              Here is how the Gospel of Luke conveys the words of Christ: “A certain person was rich, dressed in porphyry and fine linen and feasted brilliantly every day. There was also a beggar named Lazarus, who lay at his gates in scabs and wanted to be fed with crumbs falling from the rich man’s table and the dogs came and licked his scabs. The beggar died and was carried by the Angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man died and buried him. And in hell, being in agony, he raised his eyes, saw in the distance Abraham and Lazarus in his bosom Having cried, he said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me and go and Lazarus, to soak the end of his finger in the water and cool my tongue, for I suffer in this flame.But Abraham said: child, remember that you have already received your good in your life, and Lazarus - evil, now he is comforted here and you suffer ... "(Luke 16: 19 – 31)

              For example, this is what St. Apostle Paul writes in a letter to his disciple Timothy: “... Admonish the rich in this century so that they do not think highly [about] [themselves] and trust not on [their] wealth that is wrong, but on the Living God giving us everything abundantly ... ”(1 Tim. 6: 17).

              And so - let me remind visitors of our site the words of St. Gregory Dvoeslov: "giving to those lying on the ground - you give to him who is sitting in heaven ...".
              1. Hlavaty
                Hlavaty 27 October 2018 19: 21 New
                0
                And how do all these beautiful words justify what the present "holiest / most blessed" do?
                1. Mikhail Matyugin
                  Mikhail Matyugin 27 October 2018 19: 26 New
                  +1
                  It doesn’t justify in any way, although I’m already glad that the words of the Gospel Message turned out to be beautiful for you. I simply show what external Orthodoxy is, and there is actual Orthodoxy of those who live according to the Gospel Commandments, and who do not "collect wealth on earth" at all. It is simply not necessary to form an opinion about the entire Orthodox Church, seeing its individual sinful representatives.

                  1. Hlavaty
                    Hlavaty 27 October 2018 19: 44 New
                    0
                    Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                    I just show what external Orthodoxy is, and there is a real Orthodoxy of those

                    But don’t you think that split personality is cultivated in this way?
                    After all, they’re going to get married and the children are baptized precisely in this "external Orthodoxy", and it seems that the "holiest" do not reach the internal either.
                    1. Mikhail Matyugin
                      Mikhail Matyugin 28 October 2018 00: 17 New
                      0
                      Quote: Hlavaty
                      After all, they’re going to get married and the children are baptized precisely in this "external Orthodoxy", and it seems that the "holiest" do not reach the internal either.

                      I just gave an example. You see, "he who seeks will always find."
                      And, accordingly, you can find both dirt and high spirituality.

                      The church, as it were, is a kind of analogue of a hospital - it also has clean operating rooms and dirty cellars. No split personality. I personally searched and found worthy clergymen in Orthodoxy. And also I wish you.

                      Moreover, no one forces you to go where your heart does not lie. Turn to Christ, He will hear you and show the Way.

                      You see, God, in one of his manifestations, is Life-giving Love, and it really is. Despite the abomination of the world lying in evil, God is present in it and "He is Love and Justice."

                      In Orthodox Christianity, there is such a moment - the Lord influences through the saints of the Church’s Tainst and sends Grace not only to the whole Church, not only to an individual priest, but primarily to a specific person; moreover, even if the clergyman conducting the Liturgy, or any other holy Sacraments of the Church, is personally not clean or unworthy, and accepting them is worthy to accept the purity and sincerity of his confession and his life, then God sends his own to everyone ( the clergyman, if he does a lie, commits a sin and receives recompense, but an honest and pure believer receives grace).

                      Going to church, a person in Orthodoxy does not go to people, and not to the priesthood, and especially not to the higher hierarchs; man goes to God in order to receive His grace through the holy Sacraments of the Church. And hierarchs - that hierarchs are ordinary ordinary people, far from saints.
                      1. Hlavaty
                        Hlavaty 28 October 2018 10: 44 New
                        0
                        In general, as Vinokurov’s parody of a hackneyed singer: "we play here, we don’t play here, but here we wrapped the fish ..."
                        Is it not disgusting for you to justify those who dishonor your faith? How many have heard any nonsense about the fact that "you don’t need to look at fat / drunk / thieving / depraved priests because:" and further excuses anyone has enough imagination.
                        I remember the explanation that touched my father that obesity arises from the fact that they abstain from sex, and that sexual energy, finding no way out, turns into fat! And this was told to me by a man who considered himself to be a church Orthodox Christian.
                        Here you are supporting these nonsense:
                        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                        even if the clergyman conducting the Liturgy, or any other holy Sacraments of the Church, is personally not pure or unworthy, and the one who accepts them is worthy of accepting them by the purity and sincerity of his confession and his life, then God sends everyone his

                        Well, yes - it’s such an honor when your child is baptized by a drunken pop, who had been having fun all night with the boys!
                        Instead of cleansing your church of dirt, you seek excuses for it. If I included myself in such a church, I would just be ashamed.
                        Like those over 13 to the thousands of Finnish Christians who left their church in 2014 after their chief blessed the consecration of same-sex marriage. https://foma.ru/lyuterane-finlyandii-iz-za-legalizatsii-odnopolyih-brakov-stali-uhodit-iz-tserkvi.html
                        And, by the way, they achieved their goal:
                        The Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Church decided to marry only a man and a woman as spouses, despite the fact that in 2017 the law on equal marriage will enter into force in the country
                        https://cnl.news/362270

                        That is, despite the secular laws!
                        Here I respect them. And to those Orthodox who say that you don’t need to look at unworthy pastors, I doubt that they are Christians at all?
                        Forgot how Christ expelled merchants from the temple? I wonder what he would do with a pedophile priest?
                      2. Mikhail Matyugin
                        Mikhail Matyugin 28 October 2018 23: 20 New
                        0
                        Quote: Hlavaty
                        In general, as parodies of Vinokurov
                        I’m talking about the essence and meaning of Orthodoxy, you’re some kind of rubbish about parodies ... They don’t joke with such things. Such “pranksters” look especially interesting, standing on the threshold of eternity ... God grant that there is the possibility of repentance, even then ...

                        Quote: Hlavaty
                        Is it not disgusting for you to justify those who dishonor your faith?
                        Where and whom did I justify? Read carefully. On the contrary, I am talking about the biblical principle of "to each - his own reward" and "everyone will receive measure for his measure." But in order to completely cleanse the Church of the "black sheep" and especially the "bad shepherds" inside, it is necessary to create a certain organ, in the style of the Inquisition, but this is not yet possible ...

                        Quote: Hlavaty
                        Well, yes - it’s such an honor when your child is baptized by a drunken pop, who had been having fun all night with the boys!
                        So do not go to the priest, whose sins you know for sure! What personally prevents you from doing this? we do not have time for persecution, on the contrary - there are many churches everywhere. You live in a village - go to the city, find a temple there! Find at least “your” church and “your” priest, for finding a true spiritual father is an extremely difficult task, and at this stage you do not need to.

                        Quote: Hlavaty
                        Instead of cleansing your church of dirt, you seek excuses for it.
                        Once again - never and nowhere do I condone sinful priests. You apparently do not understand what I am saying, or you are not reading carefully. Everyone's sin is on him; the spread of sin on others or descendants - only in rare cases.

                        Quote: Hlavaty
                        Forgot how Christ expelled merchants from the temple? I wonder what he would do with a pedophile priest?
                        Christ expelled me for greed, and rightly so! Do you think just like that in many churches even "candle shops" stand OUTSIDE the temple? (if there is such an opportunity) And if we, like in Europe, paid such donations, then candles and trebows could be given out for free or "for a donation" (but if we do this, then quite wealthy people strive to do everything for free in general, but how then to live for those who are commanded to "feed from the altar"?).

                        Once again - I say that you need to look for the path to Christ, and you always pay attention to the world of the Antichrist ... We must strive for the highest, and not fall down (the latter is simpler and "hassle-free" of course, but this is a disastrous path).
                      3. Hlavaty
                        Hlavaty 29 October 2018 08: 37 New
                        0
                        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                        They don’t joke with such things. Such “jokers” look especially interesting, standing on the threshold of eternity ...

                        Well, we got to the next stage: when the arguments end, the bullying begins. Everything as usual... no
                        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                        But in order to completely cleanse the Church of the "black sheep" and especially the "bad shepherds" inside, it is necessary to create a certain organ, in the style of the Inquisition, but this is not yet possible ...

                        Well, of course, it should not be you, but someone else smile The example of Finnish Christians that I have cited is successfully ignored by you. yes
                        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                        Christ expelled me for greed, and rightly so!

                        That is, he would not expel a pedophile priest from the church?
                        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                        And if we, like in Europe, paid such donations, then candles and trebows could be given out for free or "for a donation"

                        Fine! The finale is just in the spirit of "holiest / most blessed" - PRO BABLO. How we started to that and returned.
                        You have discounted all those wonderful words that you said here with this ending.
                        If you need the Inquisition and the loot in order to put your church in order, then what kind of faith are we discussing here? request
                      4. Mikhail Matyugin
                        Mikhail Matyugin 29 October 2018 12: 06 New
                        0
                        Quote: Hlavaty
                        Well, we got to the next stage: when the arguments end, the bullying begins

                        Well, where did you see the bullying then? I just said a fact. Moreover, I know and knew a number of priests who really lead a worthy lifestyle and walked and walked with the Communion for the dying and sometimes see terrifying pictures, including how they saw demons dying and trying to fight them off ...

                        Quote: Hlavaty
                        The example of Finnish Christians that I have cited is successfully ignored by you.
                        The fact is that your example is somewhat past, if I understood correctly - these are Protestants; they do not have the Church as such, they, from the point of view of Orthodoxy, are "heretics from heretics", and to leave one denomination and join another or form their own for them - just spit. The Orthodox, however, have a DIRECT tradition, directly from the Church of the Apostles, and leaving us from the Church is simply a disaster.

                        Quote: Hlavaty
                        That is, he would not expel a pedophile priest from the church?
                        Well, you don’t understand my words at all or do you perceive them mockingly? Of course, He does not tolerate this! But - for our Orthodox Church in general, this is not typical, so again your example is past. And again I repeat the words - do not look for dirt, but strive for the Light. Simple and affordable - "he who has ears, let him hear."

                        Quote: Hlavaty
                        The finale is just in the spirit of "holiest / most blessed" -
                        I just immediately answered the questions that you clearly wanted to ask, that's all. Guessed right? It seems like that. We are simply arguing that there is a Heavenly Church and Faith as such, there is, relatively speaking, “Eternal Heavenly Jerusalem”, where we should all strive, and there is an Earth Church, consisting of earthly people, not saints, but mostly sinners . And going to some sort of temple you need to understand this, that's all. And I didn’t just say that about personal responsibility and about the personal message of Grace from God to everyone according to his actions. Try to have a purity of heart and then you will see the manifestations of God in our world.
                      5. Hlavaty
                        Hlavaty 29 October 2018 22: 06 New
                        0
                        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                        these are Protestants; they do not have the Church as such, they, from the point of view of Orthodoxy, are "heretics from heretics",

                        So you are better than them? Well, of course: heretics cannot be people with firm moral principles!
                        And regardless of your opinion, they believe that they have their own Lutheran Church in Finland. As such. smile
                        And after their “head of Finnish Lutherans, Archbishop Turku Kari Myakinen” in 2014 supported the law on same-sex marriage, these “heretics” began to leave their church. So massive that their opinion was heard by their church. And as a result, in 2017, their church announced that it would not enter into same-sex marriage.
                        I can’t imagine that this could happen in the current Russian Orthodox Church! In my opinion, neither the present Orthodox flock is able to demand from the church to expel freaks, nor the "holiest" are able to hear their "flock."
                        The stalemate is another sign of a deep church crisis.
                        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                        The Orthodox, however, have a DIRECT tradition, directly from the Church of the Apostles, and leaving us from the Church is simply a disaster.

                        And you can’t leave - it’s a catastrophe, and you cannot expel the “holiest / most blessed”, and therefore we close our eyes to the outrages that are happening and meaningfully talk about “internal Orthodoxy”. Already sick of this hypocritical picture.
                        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                        "That is, he would not have kicked the pedophile priest out of the church?"
                        Well, you don’t understand my words at all or do you perceive them mockingly? Of course, He does not tolerate this!

                        And what is this expressed in?
                        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                        Try to have a purity of heart and then you will see the manifestations of God in our world.

                        In the world, I just see them. But in the current Orthodox Church, they somehow look poorly. Either the luster of gold overshadows, or the bellies of the "holy" obscure ...
                      6. Mikhail Matyugin
                        Mikhail Matyugin 30 October 2018 05: 57 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Hlavaty
                        So you are better than them? Well, of course: heretics cannot be people with firm moral principles!

                        I am a big sinner, which is better there? And I don’t think to take it even close ... But the Orthodox Church is precisely the Church that has direct succession from the Community of Apostles, the Finnish Lutheran group - this, according to the canons of Christianity - is just a kind of unauthorized bunch.

                        Quote: Hlavaty
                        I can’t imagine that this could happen in the current Russian Orthodox Church! In my opinion, neither the present Orthodox flock is able to demand from the church to expel freaks, nor the "holiest" are able to hear their "flock."

                        And what, does the modern Russian Orthodox Church MP approve gay marriage or recognize non-traditional sexual orientation? or maybe we have a female priesthood, eh, dear?

                        Quote: Hlavaty
                        But in the current Orthodox Church, they somehow look poorly. Either the luster of gold overshadows, or the bellies of the "holy" obscure ...
                        Once again - do not evaluate church hierarchs, well, do not pay attention to sinners, do not look for dirt, there is plenty of it; paraphrasing famous words, “seek Truth and you will come to an end, and Truth will set you free” ...
                      7. Hlavaty
                        Hlavaty 30 October 2018 08: 35 New
                        -1
                        Do you hear only what you want?
                        I about that:
                        the current Orthodox flock is not able to demand from the church to expel freaks, nor the "holiest" are not able to hear their "flock"

                        And you about the fact that the Russian Orthodox Church does not approve of gay marriage.

                        Do you answer only what is convenient to answer?
                        I about that:
                        And you can’t leave - it’s a catastrophe, and you cannot expel the “holiest / most blessed”, and therefore we close our eyes to the outrages that are happening and meaningfully talk about “internal Orthodoxy”.

                        And you again to me: "do not evaluate church hierarchs."

                        How can I not pay attention to what is happening in your church, if this is visible to everyone RESULT of your version of faith in God?
                        Or do not you think that your shepherds are the face of your church?
                      8. Mikhail Matyugin
                        Mikhail Matyugin 30 October 2018 12: 27 New
                        0
                        Quote: Hlavaty
                        How can I not pay attention to what is happening in your church, if this is visible to everyone RESULT of your version of faith in God?
                        Or do not you think that your shepherds are the face of your church?

                        You not only confuse causes and effects, but also do not understand the life of the Church.

                        The result of faith in God of every person is his personal eternal salvation or eternal damnation, the posthumous fate of the soul, no more and no less.

                        We believe that the Head of our Heavenly Church is Jesus Christ; the spiritual guidelines of Orthodox Christians, in addition to those set forth in the New Testament, are the holy fathers of the past, their works, their exploits and their literary works; they were people of recognized higher righteousness.

                        The earthly modern employees of the Church and her followers can be and in the vast majority are sinners, since they are ordinary people, far from saints, they only follow the path of Salvation, someone is moving forward actively and quickly, and someone is not very, that's all .

                        You can read the book "Unholy Saints" by the way, it is on the network, maybe something will become a little clearer.
                      9. Hlavaty
                        Hlavaty 30 October 2018 21: 57 New
                        0
                        The more you try to protect your church, the less you hear what I am telling you.
                        Communication ceases to be interesting and useful ...
  • Detnix
    Detnix 24 October 2018 09: 43 New
    +3
    In 1996, Constantinople accepted the Estonian Orthodox Church under its omophorion; as a result, the Orthodox Church in Estonia was divided by 50 parishes, numbering 7 thousand believers, and chose the jurisdiction of Constantinople; 30 parishes and the Pyukhtitsky monastery, in total from 50 to 100 thousand believers, remained loyal to the Moscow Patriarchate, which led to the suspension of relations and the split of the Orthodox in Estonia. And then everything came to naught, relations were restored. Therefore, there is nothing surprising in arrogance in Ukraine, because once got away with it.
    From a historical point of view, it is also not surprising, as soon as Russia lost its political influence in Ukraine, a church schism occurred, let us return Ukraine, we will stop the schism.))
  • Katiusha
    Katiusha 24 October 2018 10: 11 New
    +2
    After the collapse of the Union, the MP gave autonomy, such as Ukrainian, to all of its union churches, as I understand it. In the Baltic, they "serve" the Russian-speaking population, local - Catholics. About ten years ago, locals began to refuse to renew their registration, trying to re-register to the Istanbul Patriarchate. In Estonia, Istanbul people like parishes are "squeezed out". The MP is also not worth the trouble - for example, they squeezed out a church in Istanbul from Nice through a French court (most likely).
    Apparently, in Ukraine, Filaret really is something like a "stumbling block" for everyone. He has enough ambitions for the All-Galactic). But the merchant Poroshenko needs a tomos desperately for the election - to battle hamsters feed some last-minute sweets. Andreevsky Russo-imperial church has already been sold to Istanbul for this business, and it’s not worth the price, of course.
    1. Slinqshot
      Slinqshot 24 October 2018 13: 32 New
      0
      At one time, the ROC priests and Valtsman kissed passionately, served Yanyka and Co. That’s the legal epilogue of a failed policy - Petya sold tomos to the nationalists, the Russian Orthodox Church will soon lose only 404th. Famously threw them Waltzman. What does it say about the baptized self-aware?
      1. neri73-r
        neri73-r 24 October 2018 15: 41 New
        0

        Slinqshot (Avis) Today, 13:32
        0
        At one time, the ROC priests and Valtsman kissed passionately, served Yanyka and Co. That’s the legal epilogue of a failed policy - Petya sold tomos to the nationalists, the Russian Orthodox Church will soon lose only 404th. Famously threw them Waltzman. What does it say about the baptized self-aware?

        Do not rush, no matter how much you would like it, but count the chickens in the fall! hi
  • samarin1969
    samarin1969 24 October 2018 06: 35 New
    +1
    No matter how hard the globalists of all political views — the people, the nation — will always be higher than “class solidarity” or “confessional fraternity”. The Ukrainian Church is a natural process in a hostile Bandera state.
    Surprisingly, the pro-author has openly admitted that the "Medvedev" sanctions are "because of the church." And here is the whole list of Poroshenko’s crimes against the Russian people - he didn’t pull sanctions. Church utensils are valued higher than Russian blood. The reasons for this are understandable, but it does not get any easier.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 24 October 2018 06: 55 New
    +9
    As said, the late M.N.Zadornov: All because of attendants .. Do you believe in God? In paid .. no ..
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 24 October 2018 07: 45 New
      0
      Quote: parusnik
      All because of attendants.

      That's right. In this struggle for the flock, no one remembers God. Any faith that is ecclesiastical, that party, is the madness of many, for the sake of the welfare of the individual.
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 24 October 2018 08: 05 New
        +3
        Quote: Boris55
        Any faith that is ecclesiastical, that party, is the madness of many, for the sake of the welfare of the individual.

        Write to the Bolsheviks laughing
      2. Serge Gorely
        Serge Gorely 24 October 2018 08: 52 New
        -3
        Quote: Boris55
        Quote: parusnik
        All because of attendants.

        That's right. In this struggle for the flock, no one remembers God. Any faith that is ecclesiastical, that party, is the madness of many, for the sake of the welfare of the individual.

        After the collapse of the USSR, the Russian Orthodox Church took on the role of new "political leaders", not realizing that authority was not bestowed by decrees and orders. Absolutely calmly, the Russian Orthodox Church reacted to the “push-up” of parishes in the 90s in Estonia. She canonized Nicolas 2 to please the grave diggers of the USSR, achieved tax exemption, and traded in alcohol and tobacco. But for those who are present on the site of milon and worship, there is one question - why did the Bolsheviks ruin churches but did not touch mosques? Because the people did not want to protect the priests, but the locals would have torn for mosques.
    2. bober1982
      bober1982 24 October 2018 08: 04 New
      +6
      Quote: parusnik
      As said, the late M.N.Zadornov: All because of attendants .. Do you believe in God? In paid .. no ..

      Before his death, M.N.Zadornov brought repentance to God in the Kazan Cathedral of Moscow.
    3. Nikolay R
      Nikolay R 24 October 2018 08: 45 New
      +6
      Only few people know that Zadornov, being a neopagan and a slanderer of the church, before repenting, repented of baptism and converted to Orthodoxy. After all, when you feel death, all unnecessary husks disappear and you clearly understand that you are about to appear before God.
      1. bistrov.
        bistrov. 25 October 2018 03: 53 New
        +1
        Quote: Nikolai P
        that you are about to appear before God.

        Where is your “god”, why does he allow war, hunger, debauchery, does not destroy fagot Europe, like Sodom and Gomorrah, what is waiting for? Maybe there will be enough fairy tales about the “god”, but for us, the majority have a higher education, what kind of “god” can we talk about?
        Look at these fat priests who started a business on religion, because of this they powder their brains with fairy tales about “God” and “God's punishments.” They correctly said that they rule money here and only money, and it has always been like that since ancient times. Maybe you believe in the "infallibility" of the pope?

        And where are the Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims? Millions of all kinds of sectarians? How does their religion fit with Christianity?
        Can you say that "God" created the dinosaurs? Then why did he destroy them? And at the same time mammoths?
        1. Warrior2015
          Warrior2015 25 October 2018 13: 58 New
          +1
          Quote: bistrov.
          Where is your "god", why allows war, famine, debauchery, does not destroy a fagot Europe, like Sodom and Gomorrah, what is waiting for?

          This issue is not one thousand years old, so it is not new ... You just forget that besides the creative power of Good, the destructive power of Evil acts in the world ...

          Quote: bistrov.
          Look at these fatty priests who staged a business on religion, because of this, they brains their brains with tales of "god" and "gods of God." They correctly said that they were driving money here and only money, and it always has been since ancient times.

          If you see only fat priests on Mercedes, then I feel sorry for you. Sincerely. Everyone finds what he wants. Pig for example likes to find dirt. And I, of course with difficulty, but I find true devotees of Orthodoxy, living a truly spiritual life.

          Quote: bistrov.
          And where to go Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims?

          Are you a racial Nazi and offers to arrange them total genocide? The Orthodox answer to your question is simple: do not put them anywhere, spread Orthodox Christianity in these countries and leads the nations to the Gospel Truths.
  • Same lech
    Same lech 24 October 2018 07: 09 New
    +5
    The attack on our Russian Orthodoxy is not just an attack ... but a comprehensive ... systemic offensive ... linked to the advance of the West on Russia on all fronts ... economic, military, cultural, ideological and then only.

    I think we’ll fight off ... only a long time will have to be spent on a showdown with our many enemies ... this really greatly inhibits the development of our country and people.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 24 October 2018 07: 22 New
      +4
      Quote: The same Lech
      The attack on our Russian Orthodoxy is not just an attack.

      She is constant
      Quote: The same Lech
      I think we’ll fight back.

      From their own, it would seem to be Russian repulsed. That Bandera, that many of ours here on the site, seemingly like Russians are contorted by the Russian Church.
      As an article about the Church and Faith, so Svarogs of all stripes in the hysterics will clave
      1. Same lech
        Same lech 24 October 2018 07: 31 New
        +4
        here on the site, seemingly like Russian is contorted by the Russian Church.

        There are few of them and they are more likely atheists ... they have nothing to do with Vera ... one must be more calm about this.
        The Russian Church and any other it’s its own world where anyone who wants to come there forcibly doesn’t drive anyone ... well, if someone doesn’t like it, these are his personal problems.
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 24 October 2018 07: 47 New
          -1
          Quote: The same Lech
          They are few and more likely atheists ..

          But each of them is active. And each of them feels sick at the mention of Faith
          1. Same lech
            Same lech 24 October 2018 07: 51 New
            +2
            But each of them is active. And each of them feels sick at the mention of Faith


            No one complicates life so much as the simplest. smile
          2. KLV2018
            KLV2018 24 October 2018 10: 05 New
            +2
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Quote: The same Lech
            They are few and more likely atheists ..

            But each of them is active. And each of them feels sick at the mention of Faith

            maybe they feel sick at the mention of the church, and not about Faith? because these are different things.
        2. Boris55
          Boris55 24 October 2018 08: 02 New
          -3
          Quote: The same Lech
          The church ... where anyone comes forcibly does not drive anyone there.

          Are you sure about that? Why do you think that our ancestors were so naive that they voluntarily renounced the faith of their fathers and accepted the newcomer faith of Constantinople, and today we are ready to lay our heads for the faith of the fathers?

          1. Same lech
            Same lech 24 October 2018 08: 04 New
            0
            I am talking about today's church and not about the church of the time of the Inquisition and Giordano Bruno. hi
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 24 October 2018 08: 10 New
              -1
              Quote: The same Lech
              I'm talking about today's church

              Without knowing the past, it is impossible to understand the present. hi
          2. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 24 October 2018 08: 12 New
            +5
            Quote: Boris55
            Why do you think that our ancestors were so naive that they voluntarily renounced the faith of their fathers and accepted the new faith of Constantinople

            You haven’t accepted anything at all, why are you climbing with your demagogy
            Quote: Boris55
            and today we are ready to lay our heads for the faith of the fathers?

            For Faith 1000 years, our ancestors lay their heads. You overslept
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 24 October 2018 08: 20 New
              -2
              Quote: Alexander Romanov
              For Faith 1000 years, our ancestors lay their heads.

              For your information. Andrew the First-Called, not called by anyone, in the first century came to the shores of the Black Sea and reached the shores of the White. Then Russia did not accept his faith. Then they went the other way - usurped power and forcibly imposed their faith ... And you speak Russia of all 1000 years. Not really yours - we are blessed with more.

              To the heroes who defended our land, not only Rodionov, but also many other atheists and non-Christians who have laid their heads on the battlefield, eternal memory.
              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 24 October 2018 08: 26 New
                -1
                Quote: Boris55
                For your information. Andrew the First-Called, not called by anyone, in the first century came to the shores of the Black Sea and reached the shores of the White. Then Russia did not accept his faith. Then they went the other way - usurped power and forced their faith on them.

                Oh Vasily, come on, with your alternative history of the Sumerian kaganates and other mura, much further according to your desire and need.
                The Kyrgyz were the first people on earth! The question is closed
                1. Boris55
                  Boris55 24 October 2018 08: 29 New
                  -2
                  Quote: Alexander Romanov
                  come on with your alternative story

                  Before you wrote nonsense, would you google it or something, would you find out who Andrey the first-called is, when he lived and why the Andreevsky flag in the fleet laughing

                  1. Alexander Romanov
                    Alexander Romanov 24 October 2018 08: 36 New
                    0
                    Quote: Boris55
                    and why the fleet flag of St. Andrew

                    You still ask me, after having glanced in Google, how many strips on a vest. I served in the Navy, but I can’t say anything without Google and a wiki.

                    1000 years Russians go to bow to Christ, but then after 1000 appears on the site, someone says, you are not worshiping that. You are funny Vasily
                    1. Boris55
                      Boris55 24 October 2018 08: 58 New
                      -5
                      Quote: Alexander Romanov
                      1000 years Russians go to bow to Christ

                      More than a thousand years ago, she accepted the Christian faith. The opposition of the people, expressed in atheism, is still there. And our Christian church itself is not united. There are both the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church.

                      The fact that you served in the Navy and you only know that there are two stripes on the vest, but you don’t know the flag’s history, that doesn’t color you.
                      1. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 24 October 2018 09: 07 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Boris55
                        The fact that you served in the Navy and you only know that there are two stripes on the vest,

                        Ahahaha, Vasily, even Vika and Google are not able to help you. On the vest, not two, but three strips wassat
                        Quote: Boris55
                        but you don’t know the history of the flag - it doesn’t color you.

                        Now tell me the academician of the history of ancient Russia, how many stripes on the St. Andrew flag and what do they mean?
                        Quote: Boris55
                        The opposition of the people, expressed in atheism, is still there.

                        No, this is not a confrontation of the people, I do not drag atheists into the Temple by force, they themselves will come when the time comes.
                        But atheists of all stripes, the Church and Faith are pouring mud on the mud, teaching others that this is not right. That's how you, it would seem, you're not a believer, what should you do in this thread, but no, you're not here. And all evening you will sit and write that the Orthodox faith is bad.
                        You do not like it, well, you pass by. But you can’t, it makes you sad
                      2. Berber
                        Berber 24 October 2018 10: 27 New
                        +7
                        All this to the question - were the ancestors smarter than us? I know for sure - no. So do not carry nonsense. Orthodoxy is a unifying factor of the Russian people. By the way, the Azov battalion, the Ukrainian "guards" are neopagans.
                        All this “muddy things from the bottom" was raised by those who do not want the unity of the RUSSIAN PEOPLE. Learn history and do not idealize ancestors. They lived in bloody times and with bloody mores.
              2. Mikhail Matyugin
                Mikhail Matyugin 26 October 2018 18: 18 New
                0
                Quote: Boris55
                For your information. Andrew the First-Called, not called by anyone, in the first century came to the shores of the Black Sea and reached the shores of the White. Then Russia did not accept his faith. Then they went the other way - usurped power and forcibly imposed their faith ... And you speak Russia of all 1000 years. Not really yours - we are blessed with more.

                So many illiterate myths, it's just a nightmare.
                1. The Holy Apostle Andrew was called by the Lord Jesus Christ, it was by Him Himself called to ministry and sermon, therefore the First-Called.

                2. This Apostle most likely did not go to the shores of the White Sea. It is exactly what happened on the territory of the former Bosporan-Crimean kingdom, in the Greco-Roman policies of the Crimea. Probably, but not exactly, he climbed along the Dnieper to the Kiev region, but hardly north.

                And in the Crimea, Christian and communities, and Orthodox churches have existed since the first century AD! Already 2000 years old! and in the Dnieper region, Christian things found by archaeologists have been known at least since the era of Late Antiquity.

                Another thing is Old Russian statehood. The first basis is generally from the "Gothic empire" of Germanaric; then the integration of the Proto-Slavs into the state of Atilla, then of other nomadic entities. And only about the beginning of the century with 7-8 in the Dnieper region was a new type of statehood taking shape, and it is very likely that on the basis of the Khazar Khaganate (not for nothing that in the 11 century Russia was called "Russian Kaganate").
                1. Boris55
                  Boris55 27 October 2018 07: 17 New
                  0
                  Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                  So many illiterate myths, it's just a nightmare.

                  And right there:
                  Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                  To the shores of the White Sea, this Apostle probably did not go.

                  Are these your arguments? laughing
                  1. Mikhail Matyugin
                    Mikhail Matyugin 27 October 2018 15: 47 New
                    0
                    I pointed out your ignorance and commitment to myths, not facts. Since the exact travel diary of St. Apostle Andrei has not been preserved to our time, it’s a pry to operate with probability categories.
                    1. Boris55
                      Boris55 28 October 2018 08: 24 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                      I pointed out your ignorance ... ... to hang on to operate with probability categories.

                      Why is it permissible for you to be illiterate and reason about probability, but you refuse me that? laughing
        3. Slinqshot
          Slinqshot 24 October 2018 09: 06 New
          +2
          Og, nobody pulls. We cut down part of the botanical garden for the sake of the next church. There is nowhere else to build. And the goal is clear - near the new microdistrict and in a picturesque place overlooking the Volga.
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 24 October 2018 09: 14 New
            -3
            Quote: Slinqshot
            0
            Og, nobody pulls.

            And who is pulling you?
            1. Slinqshot
              Slinqshot 24 October 2018 11: 43 New
              +1
              And that only one phrase was pulled out, but nothing was written about the extraction of municipal land?
              1. Flavius
                Flavius 24 October 2018 17: 55 New
                0
                Rallies have already begun to hold on this occasion? Are there crowds of discontent, or is it just you?
                1. The comment was deleted.
                  1. Flavius
                    Flavius 25 October 2018 08: 37 New
                    0
                    Quote: Slinqshot
                    0
                    Do rallies help?

                    We wanted to cut down a forest outside our window - to conduct a road. We all organized and started writing to the administration. The forest is still standing.
                    So you do not sing fables - this church only bothers you, and you rave alone.
                    Quote: Slinqshot
                    Isakiy priests secretly still given despite the rallies.

                    It was generally not built for Rosa Luxemburg and not for your Rabinovichi, but for believing Christians. He belongs to them. But I was there six months ago - they didn’t give it to anyone. So have fun.
                    But you lied a second time already))
                    1. Slinqshot
                      Slinqshot 25 October 2018 13: 34 New
                      +1
                      First, why are the comments tearing hard?
                      Second, you doubt that everything has already been decided? Come take a look yourself.
                      Third, this is where I lied for the first time?
                      1. Flavius
                        Flavius 25 October 2018 13: 39 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Slinqshot
                        0
                        First, why are the comments tearing hard?

                        I don’t know, I'm not ter. They probably don’t like non-Christians here))
                        Quote: Slinqshot
                        Come take a look yourself.

                        No thanks. Send the link where masses of people indignant on this occasion are represented.
                        Sorry, you still lied once. And the first time they put up a great event as a problem.
                      2. Slinqshot
                        Slinqshot 25 October 2018 15: 13 New
                        +1
                        You wrote it right - great. Distinct from your opinion. Here, because of such a mentor and dogmatic opinion, because of the grabbing of pieces fatter, because of the duplicity of the Russian Orthodox Church, it will collapse. I stock up on popcorn and watch how dill and Turks will tear the property of the UOC-MP. By the way, dashing trouble began - the Greeks carefully monitor and inventory the property of the Russian Orthodox Church at home.
                      3. Flavius
                        Flavius 25 October 2018 15: 21 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Slinqshot
                        , due to the grabbing of pieces fatter, due to the duplicity of the Russian Orthodox Church expects collapse.

                        Yeah - a thousand years crumbles and does not crumble.
                        Quote: Slinqshot
                        I stock up on popcorn

                        You can’t eat so much)) Turks and Greeks and Ukrainians will also cover themselves with a copper basin.
  • kenig1
    kenig1 24 October 2018 09: 13 New
    0
    In a word, raging.
  • aleks_29296
    aleks_29296 24 October 2018 11: 24 New
    +6
    But the Church, or rather "ministers of the Cult", itself discredits itself - money-grubbing in all its glory. Many may object to me regarding church rates (there were already such debates in the comments), but I don’t remember that John the Baptist took a bribe for baptism from Christ. And now all this mess from the outside does not look like religious wars, but more reminds of the spin of a business.
  • Barkun
    Barkun 24 October 2018 17: 42 New
    +1
    You shouldn’t be so. Moreover, there is such a lousy nuance: breaking the relations with the Ecumenical Patriarch, the ROC may well become not a Church, but a decimation, and even worse - a sect. Those. to be on a par with Fans of Svarog. Just look at the technical definitions.
    This is the fifth schism. Two out of five are overcome, sort of. Both, in fact, are not completely done.
    But it was not necessary to ignore the Pan-Orthodox Council (by the way, who remembers it? But it is an event of a global scale).
    1. Mikhail Matyugin
      Mikhail Matyugin 26 October 2018 18: 22 New
      +1
      Quote: Barkun
      You shouldn’t be so. Moreover, there is such a lousy nuance: breaking the relations with the Ecumenical Patriarch, the ROC may well become not a Church, but a decimation, and even worse - a sect. Those. to be on a par with Fans of Svarog. Just look at the technical definitions.
      This is the fifth schism. Two out of five are overcome, sort of. Both, in fact, are not completely done.
      But it was not necessary to ignore the Pan-Orthodox Council (by the way, who remembers it? But it is an event of a global scale).

      Unfortunately, there is truth in your words. The real misfortune is that the Patriarchate of Constantinople JURIDICALLY really has the right to withdraw its consent to the possession of the canonical territory of Ukraine for the Russian Orthodox Church MP (this practice is “only” 300 years old, whereas these lands 700 years old, since the Baptism of Russia, were under the jurisdiction of the Constantinople Patriarchate )

      It was necessary for our church leaders not to break off relations, but to try to gently agree. And so far there really is a path to another split within Ecumenical Orthodoxy ...
  • Semurg
    Semurg 24 October 2018 08: 03 New
    -3
    Quote: The same Lech
    The attack on our Russian Orthodoxy is not just an attack ...

    In England there is Anglicanism; in the Russian Federation, Russian Orthodoxy is an analogue of Anglicanism?
    1. bober1982
      bober1982 24 October 2018 08: 16 New
      0
      Quote: Semurg
      In England there is Anglicanism; in the Russian Federation, Russian Orthodoxy is an analogue of Anglicanism?

      Russian Orthodoxy does not exist, as well as Ukrainian or Greek, etc., and cannot exist.
      Anglicanism, one of the varieties of Protestantism.
      1. Slinqshot
        Slinqshot 24 October 2018 11: 32 New
        0
        The head of the church is the English king. The Russian Orthodox Church was formerly led by the emperor.
        1. bober1982
          bober1982 24 October 2018 11: 39 New
          0
          Quote: Slinqshot
          The Russian Orthodox Church used to be led by the emperor

          since 1721? How?
          1. Slinqshot
            Slinqshot 24 October 2018 13: 36 New
            0
            Through the synod
            1. bober1982
              bober1982 25 October 2018 07: 22 New
              0
              Yes, everything is correct, Peter I became an absolute monarch, by the way he called himself Christian Emperor, not Orthodoxsovereign, and considered himself the head of the Church, but it was precisely - he believed so, for Orthodox believers this was unacceptable. It was under Peter that the church became state.
              1. Slinqshot
                Slinqshot 25 October 2018 08: 42 New
                0
                This was unacceptable to churchmen. They themselves wanted to steer the church. It was violet to the people, given the level of education at that time. Moreover, a significant part of the population was Old Believers who did not accept the innovations of priests who had come from Ukraine.
                1. bober1982
                  bober1982 26 October 2018 08: 16 New
                  0
                  Quote: Slinqshot
                  This was unacceptable to churchmen.

                  Yes, this was unacceptable when secular authorities began to interfere in church affairs, and very clumsy.
                  Quote: Slinqshot
                  Moreover, a significant part of the population was Old Believers who did not accept the innovations of priests who had come from Ukraine.

                  In imperial Russia, the active resistance of the Old Believers was suppressed. As for those who came from Ukraine ......, you can agree with something (with reservations).
                  1. Slinqshot
                    Slinqshot 26 October 2018 09: 00 New
                    0
                    Where is crushed? At the beginning of the 20th century, Moscow (unlike St. Petersburg) was Old Believers a little more than completely. All the big tycoons were Old Believers.
                    About Siberia and the Far East in general I am silent.
                    1. bober1982
                      bober1982 26 October 2018 09: 34 New
                      0
                      The Old Believers should thank Tsar Nicholas II, who created the “golden age” between the two revolutions. By the way, the Old Believers were never united, there were too many kinds of “consents” and “explanations”.
                    2. Slinqshot
                      Slinqshot 26 October 2018 09: 50 New
                      0
                      Not Kolyana, a rag, but a people who, through the revolution of 5 years and their victims, achieved the relaxation of the regime.
                    3. bober1982
                      bober1982 26 October 2018 10: 08 New
                      0
                      Quote: Slinqshot
                      achieved a relaxation of the regime.

                      Well, let’s say, people's sacrifices have nothing to do with the regime’s relaxation.
                      The proclamation of the October Manifesto of 1905 was a gross mistake of the king.
                    4. Slinqshot
                      Slinqshot 26 October 2018 10: 31 New
                      0
                      It depends on which side to look at.
                    5. bober1982
                      bober1982 26 October 2018 10: 45 New
                      0
                      We will not argue with each other and we will not convince.
                      I, as you probably guessed, have nothing to do with the Old Believer. I had to visit Khvalynsk, a glorious town - the cottage of the merchant Khrenov, abandoned graves, a ruined cemetery, a monk's cave.
                      Good luck.
                    6. Slinqshot
                      Slinqshot 26 October 2018 11: 16 New
                      0
                      Absolutely.
                      Good luck
  • Vard
    Vard 24 October 2018 07: 39 New
    -2
    It is interesting that the girls dance four at a time in a row ... As I understand it, while Ukraine is killing Russian people, this is so-so ... But the ROC has a raider seizure, this is an occasion to impose sanctions ... yes ... Nothing personal, just business. .
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 24 October 2018 07: 48 New
      -6
      Quote: Vard
      I understand

      You don’t understand anything at all. Apparently not given
  • bober1982
    bober1982 24 October 2018 08: 34 New
    +2
    There was such a “legendary” major of state security E. Tuchkov, who’s Glavpophe - hegumenhe - leading religious scholar.
    In 1957, he bent down and writhed from stomach cancer in the hospital, and he was urgently invited to Patriarch Alexy I, to confess.
    God cannot be scolded, comrades.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 24 October 2018 08: 48 New
      +1
      Quote: bober1982
      God cannot be scolded, comrades.

      They will catch it, but later
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 24 October 2018 08: 56 New
        +4
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        They will catch it

        True repentance does not require years or days, but one instant. Pr Ambrose Optinsky
        And, Okudzhava, Tuchkov, Zadornov and many others had such an instant.
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 24 October 2018 09: 26 New
          +1
          Quote: bober1982
          And, such a moment was

          Everyone will have it, someone will accept, and someone will not
      2. Mikhail Matyugin
        Mikhail Matyugin 26 October 2018 18: 25 New
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        They will catch it, but later

        Golden and true words! We Orthodox Christians would very much like for those who deny Christ and do not obey His commandments, as early as possible, nevertheless listen to His words preserved in the Holy Gospels ...
  • steelmaker
    steelmaker 24 October 2018 08: 42 New
    -4
    Generally violet! People are killed there every day, and they share junk. At least one pop in defense of the people stood up? Something I did not hear. Right, Stalin did what crushed them! We were crushed by taxes, and Putin was exempted from taxes by the church, even the priests do not pay salaries, who work for them, plus state support. People would be so supported as a church. When the Minsk agreements were violated, for some reason they did not impose any sanctions, but then Putin looked at the sanctions! Words are not one mate.
    1. bober1982
      bober1982 24 October 2018 08: 46 New
      +8
      Quote: steel maker
      Right, Stalin did what crushed them!

      In 1943, Stalin thanked the Orthodox Church for his help, began to open churches and monasteries, allowed the election of the Patriarch, and provided financial and material assistance.
      Why do you mention precisely Stalin? But are you silent about Lenin, Trotsky, Sverdlov, Yaroslavsky?
    2. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 24 October 2018 08: 46 New
      +1
      Quote: steel maker
      At least one pop in defense of the people stood up? Something I did not hear.

      With hearing you seem to be very bad
    3. g1v2
      g1v2 24 October 2018 16: 58 New
      +4
      How much is enough?
    4. Mikhail Matyugin
      Mikhail Matyugin 26 October 2018 18: 27 New
      +1
      Quote: steel maker
      Right, Stalin did what crushed them!

      If I understand correctly, do you approve of genocide on a religious basis, carried out against Christians, for example, including in the USSR, as well as in other countries, and you think that it should be repeated?
  • alexx-fenix
    alexx-fenix 24 October 2018 08: 51 New
    +1
    Moscow needs to offer Denisenko free security.
    1. Detnix
      Detnix 24 October 2018 09: 47 New
      -1
      And then bring as Yanek to Moscow?))
  • 72jora72
    72jora72 24 October 2018 09: 12 New
    +4
    something like this.....
    1. bober1982
      bober1982 24 October 2018 09: 18 New
      +2
      You greatly exaggerate, this is very, very rare, this is from the field of "literary" fantasies.
    2. Flavius
      Flavius 24 October 2018 09: 24 New
      +4
      Quote: 72jora72
      something like this.....

      Somehow it’s very silly to retype a bunch of times a rotten fable from stupid people
    3. Nikolay R
      Nikolay R 24 October 2018 09: 48 New
      +4
      And if you are invited to Putin for dinner, do not you learn first how to behave yourself there? Won't you wear the best costume? And if someone corrects you there that something is wrong, did you run offended?
      So, all the more so, when you come to the Temple of God, you must first study how to behave and if you correct everything, you will humbly accept, and not blow your lips.
  • steelmaker
    steelmaker 24 October 2018 09: 12 New
    0
    "Sanya" mom and dad did not teach you that being rude is not beautiful? And if priests have stood up for people at least once, at least in the last 25 years, then write, not boorish.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 24 October 2018 09: 41 New
      -1
      Quote: steel maker
      0
      "Sanya" mom and dad did not teach you that being rude is not beautiful?

      Look at yourself in the mirror. You are naughty here, not even to me, but to thousands who read your comments.
      Quote: steel maker
      And if priests at least once stood up for people, at least in the last 25 years, then write, not ham.

      You have never been interested in this, because you do not know. If you were at least once interested in yourself, you would know. But why do you need it. Why did you even come to this topic, puke hatred? So for those like you wrote above, God does not scold. Calm down already
  • rocket757
    rocket757 24 October 2018 09: 22 New
    0
    It is just necessary not to plunder the country, but to work for its greatness!
    Our top and stole money would be good to remember. General hypocrisy and it sits very high. Our people are not very religious, priests are used to leaning! Okay, people of faith, our own, family, we will help as much as we can, that's right, but not to priests. authorities and other crooks, and siblings.
    We are definitely not one faith unites, on and stand!
    1. Flavius
      Flavius 24 October 2018 13: 11 New
      +2
      Quote: rocket757
      Our people are not very religious, priests are used to leaning!

      And what is it used to - for booze, smoke and early retirement? Such a nation will quickly end and one that rests on religion will remain. Only possible, unfortunately, it will be another people - other bloodshed.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 24 October 2018 13: 23 New
        0
        Is this your point of view? I pray (conditionally) to my gods and do not speak blasphemy against strangers.
        The sphere of interests, such as myself, of generally accepted vices, is even less than that of many who, religiously and spiritually, writhe out of themselves.
        Cynical jesters are not interesting to us, I think TRUE BELIEFS they are no more pleasant.
        We are all brothers, we are all human, only with OWN charter, live in your monastery and do not go wherever you call.
        If it’s unbearable how you want to carry the Word of God to ... people, just think about where you are going! It will be useful, however.
        1. Flavius
          Flavius 24 October 2018 13: 36 New
          +5
          Quote: rocket757
          Is this your point of view?

          My point is that a religiously homogeneous society, based on clearly fixed moral principles, is as viable as possible. Everything else will eventually be shaken and uprooted - faster or slower.
          Strict religious norms are the most sustainable remedy for the degeneration of the people. And there is nowhere without priests - they do not allow, at least, vacillations within the confession.
          Since 1917, the Russian people have steadily rolled down - into the abyss. If you do not believe it, then take a look at the Russian national wrestling team - there have not been a single Russian there for many years. Centennial debauchery and moral degradation in our people is doing its job.
          And you continue to pray to your (conditionally) gods and jump over the fire.
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 24 October 2018 13: 47 New
            -3
            Homogeneity, at this stage in the development of human society, is not real.
            I will not argue, I see a steadily spiritual met .... yes, through the fire we are probably better to jump than to shoot at the same others who see the world differently.
            1. Flavius
              Flavius 24 October 2018 14: 18 New
              +2
              Quote: rocket757
              Homogeneity, at this stage in the development of human society, is not real.

              Everything is real, if you do not talk about spirituality lying on the couch. Laziness is the root of all ills. You can take a look at modern Chechnya and Dagestan and find homogeneous (relatively) religious societies.
              Naturally, nothing absolute exists in the world and there are problems, however, the differences from modern Russian society are cardinal.
              And for a long time you don’t have to jump over the fire and don’t cut the cocks - you will go to Sharia court yes
  • BAI
    BAI 24 October 2018 09: 22 New
    +7
    The Istanbul Patriarchate shod Denisenko in full.
    1. It gives not autocephaly, but stavroprigy - the administration of the Istanbul Patriarchate (and there can be no two patriarchs on the same territory).
    2. Removing anathema - for Denisenko and the second (I do not remember the last name). Anathema is removed from the dignity that they had at the time of imposition. Those. Denisenko falls to the Metropolitan, and the second to the rank of priest.
    Those. we have: Denisenko demoted to the metropolitans, and all church authority passes to Istanbul.
  • Alex66
    Alex66 24 October 2018 09: 44 New
    +2
    Why did the Bolsheviks deal with the church so easily? Only some parishes defended their abbots, those who led them to God. Those abbots who did not go to God were destroyed, no one stood up for them. For whom are we ready to intervene, if the church does not intervene for us and is limited to calls for humility and patience. Our church should take an example from John Chrysostom who even denounced the queen, for which he suffered. Our church does not want to suffer because it is silent.
    1. bober1982
      bober1982 24 October 2018 10: 02 New
      +1
      Quote: Alex66
      Why did the Bolsheviks so easily dealt with the church?

      Darwin, Leo Tolstoy, Narodnaya Volya, poets of the so-called Silver Age, Blavatsky, Roerich, corrupt newspapers, rotten aristocracy, rampant drunkenness, so-called scientific and technological progress, picture Tea drinking in Mytishchi, crazy ideas of socialism and much more.
      Therefore, with the Bolsheviks, people with such enthusiasm climbed to drop the bells.
    2. skif02
      24 October 2018 10: 05 New
      +2
      Why did the Bolsheviks so easily dealt with the church?

      And where are those Bolsheviks now? And the church stands
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 24 October 2018 14: 54 New
        0
        Quote: skif02
        And where are those Bolsheviks now? And the church stands

        I'm here. tongue
        1. German Titov
          German Titov 25 October 2018 20: 05 New
          0
          And I am here. And the church does not interfere. soldier Just - "surrenders to me," we are on the verge of a "big racket."
  • Ros 56
    Ros 56 24 October 2018 10: 11 New
    +1
    So leave these three areas to banderlogs, and send them from the rest, and let them share power and income there like spiders in a bank.
  • wax
    wax 24 October 2018 12: 34 New
    +3
    Constantinople destroys Christianity.
  • Examenatornick
    Examenatornick 24 October 2018 16: 29 New
    0
    what did you do gandalf
  • vit357
    vit357 24 October 2018 18: 18 New
    +1
    Right-wingers will solve all the questions of the seizure of churches, that's why they were created, all these conversations in favor of the poor, in general, they gave the “face” command from your committee.
  • Love is
    Love is 24 October 2018 19: 11 New
    +1
    Russian means Orthodox.