Military Review

Does our army need a wheeled tank?

134

Recently, domestic mass media have been actively discussing tests at the test site in the Bronnitsy near Moscow of two Italian wheeled armored vehicles (KBM) “Centaur” (Centauro), as well as the prospects for acquiring a license for their production in Russia. Unfortunately, reports on this subject do not shine with either accuracy or objectivity, Internet comments are completely ignorant of one another.

So what kind of a thing is this “wheeled tank” (this is exactly what KBM is called in most publications) and what might it interest our military? Let's try to figure it out.

Let's take a look

We must immediately state that neither the Soviet nor the Russian army ever had such a machine. We didn’t engage in the creation of armored cars in our country after World War II - for a big war using nuclear weapons, namely, the USSR was preparing for it, they were not needed. In the West, a slightly different approach was practiced, since in addition to preparing for a global armed confrontation with Moscow-led social blocs, it was necessary to pay attention to colonies, overseas territories, etc.

The demand for them was also significantly affected by the demand for them in third world countries, which were not so rich as to purchase large quantities of Tanks. Well, as you know, demand creates supply. Over 70 years, many armored vehicles of various classes have appeared abroad - from light to heavy. The centaur belongs to the category of the latter. Yes, yes, the Centaur is an armored car or, as similar equipment is classified according to modern Russian terminology, a wheeled armored vehicle with heavy weapons. The term "wheeled tank" does not officially exist. However, in the Italian army, the "Centaur" is called a light tank destroyer.


Tactical and technical requirements for the "Centaur" were identified in 1984 year. According to them, it was planned to design a mobile KBM equipped with an 105-mm gun, possessing high dynamic characteristics, a large power reserve, high cross-country maneuverability and a computerized fire control system unified with the Ariete main OMS.

Production of the “Centaurs” for the Italian army began at the end of 1990, at the IVECO-Fiat factory in Bolzano and ended in 1996. 400 vehicles entered the troops, currently 320 remains (in eight cavalry regiments). The status of 80 KBM of this type is unclear. Another 84 armored car Rome sold Spain (perhaps 80 of them just because of the presence of the Italian army) and six KBM - Oman. And the latter are armed with 120-mm cannons. Thus, the total number of "Centaurs" issued is either 410 or 490 units.

What is the tank destroyer B1 Centauro?

The car body is welded from steel armor plates of various thicknesses. In the frontal part, the armor is resistant to 25-mm projectiles, from the stern and sides — bullets of caliber 14,5 mm. At the same time, however, it is not reported from which particular distances. The engine compartment is located in the front of the case on the right side. The engine is a six-cylinder V-shaped diesel liquid-cooled turbocharged IVECO MTSA horsepower 520. The German automatic (five speeds forward, two backward) ZF 5HP-1500 gearbox was used at KBM.

The engine, cooling system and gearbox are structurally designed as a single unit and are separated from the rest of the body by firebreaks. If necessary, the power unit can be replaced within 20 minutes. To the left of the logistics center is the office of management with the workplace of the driver (the seat is adjustable in height), which controls the machine outside the combat situation, observing the terrain through the open hatch. In combat, observation is carried out with the help of three periscopic instruments, and the replacement of the middle one with an illumination night vision device is envisaged.

Triple welded tower mounted closer to the aft hull. It is manufactured as a single module and goes to the assembly of an armored car already fully ready for installation on the chassis. The KBM commander is to the left of the gun, the gunner is on the right, the loader is behind the gunner. Hatches in the roof of the hull are located above the commander and loader seats.

105-mm gun with a barrel length 52 caliber on the internal ballistics is similar to the 105-mm tank gun L7 / M68 and is equipped with a device for blowing the barrel bore after the shot, highly effective (absorbs up to 40% recoil) with a muzzle brake, thermal jacket. The recoil of the gun when fired - 14 tons. It is designed to extinguish a special hydropneumatic rollback system with a barrel stroke 750 millimeters after the shot. Shooting is possible with all standard NATO 105-mm ammunition, including cumulative. Ammunition - 40 shells, 14 of them are stored directly in the tower. The 7,62-mm M42 / 59 machine gun (located on the left side of it) is paired with a gun. Another machine gun can be mounted on the roof of the tower. Ammunition for machine guns - 4000 ammunition. On the sides of the tower mounted on four smoke grenade launcher.


Drives of guns and turrets - electrohydraulic with manual duplication. The elevation angles of the gun vary from -6º to + 15º (slightly less than on main battle tanks, due to the low profile of the turret).

The Centaur is equipped with the Officine Galileo TURMS LMS - the same as on the Ariete main battle tank. Its main components are a commander’s panoramic day sight with a two-plane stabilized aiming line, a gunner’s periscope combined (day / night) gunner’s sight with a stabilized aiming line and an integrated laser range finder, a digital ballistic computer, a set of firing condition sensors, a metering system for bending the barrel and control panels commander, gunner and loader.

The commanding sight has a fixed 2,5- and 10-fold increase. The swing angle of the head mirror varies from -10º to + 60º, the angle of rotation of the sight head horizontally - 360º. For observation and firing at night, the commander uses a television monitor, which displays an image from the gunner's thermal sight.

The gunner's sight on the tower’s roof combines four main modules (a head-mounted mirror, an optical day channel, a laser transceiver, and a thermal imager) in a single package. The day channel has a fivefold increase, and the thermal imaging provides for the display on the monitor of two fields of view - wide and narrow.

The digital ballistic computer determines the initial settings for firing, controls the action of all subsystems of the SLA (telescopic sight, laser range finder, servo drives), as well as sensors of firing conditions, built-in health monitoring systems of the SITE MSO and crew training, provides a reconfiguration of the system operation algorithms from normal mode to duplicate in case of its partial refusals.

The MSA includes three main sensors for firing conditions: meteorological, course angle and barrel bore wear.

The gunner as a backup has a telescopic sight Officine Galileo OG С102 with eight-fold increase and three aiming scales, which are switched manually.

Suspension machine - hydropneumatic. Pivoting are two pairs of front and last pair of rear wheels, which provides relatively small turning radii. The rear pair of wheels is controlled only at speeds up to 20 kilometers per hour. A centralized tire pressure control system is standard equipment for KBM. Adjustment is carried out from the driver’s seat while driving and provides increased cross-country traffic.

In the niche of the turret there are elements of the Sekur OMP protection system, similar to that used on the Ariete tank. It prevents contaminated air from getting inside the armored car by creating overpressure in it. The built-in air conditioning system allows the crew to work normally at ambient temperatures ranging from -30º to + 44ºС.

The structure of the standard equipment "Centaur" includes a winch located in front and fire protection systems in the power and combat compartments.

In the standard version, the centaur's combat weight is 25 tons. The crew - four people, the maximum speed on the highway - 105 kilometers per hour, the range of fuel - 800 kilometers.

It should be noted that the 251 machine is made in the so-called long version. Its body at the stern is extended to 22 centimeters, which allows it to equip places for four infantrymen of the patrol group there.

After the “Centaurs” were used by the Italian contingent in Somalia, their booking increased in 1992. When additional modules for body armor are installed on the KBM modules, its mass increases to 28 tons.

On the chassis of the Centaur tank destroyer, a command-staff vehicle, infantry fighting vehicles, and KBM variants with 120- and 60-mm guns were developed.

What is depressing

Such is the general appearance of the "Centaur." As you can see, it is a very modern lightly armored fighting vehicle. At the same time, its armament is at the level of the main battle tank (especially in the case of installation of an 120-mm smooth-bore gun with a barrel length 45 of calibers), and the tactical mobility is significantly higher. "Centaur" can really be considered one of the best examples in its class.

All this is true, the reader will say, even if the “Centaur” is a good car, but the question is not how good it is, but how much it is needed by the Russian army. Russia seems to have no overseas regions with insurgents, large desert spaces, too. True, there are rebels in their own territory and restless and poorly predictable southern neighbors. In addition, the Russian Federation is not Europe, where driving 300 kilometers, you can get to another country. Even in the European part, the distance between regional centers is sometimes twice as large. Under such conditions, it is hardly worth neglecting the possibility of quickly transferring a motorized rifle compound to a given area under its own power. Indeed, in some cases, transportation by air or by rail takes much longer. True, the rapid transfer under its own power is possible only if there is no arsenal of tracked vehicles in service.

In short, the "Centaur" is the best suited for equipping mobile forces or rapid deployment forces. Machines of this class would be useful to both the marines and airborne troops. KBM could replace tanks in light motorized rifle brigades, if, of course, the formation of such formations is provided for by military reform. In the composition of the other formations of the Russian army - the classic tank and motorized rifle brigades, a niche for vehicles like the “Centaur” looks bad. Contrary to some judgments, the Centaur is not a scout, but a fire support vehicle or tank destroyer.

And it’s not the fact of turning to imported equipment that is depressing here, because, unlike the Lynx, the Centaur really has no counterpart in Russia. According to its destination, the Sprut-SD is the closest to the SPN 2C25, but it has a tracked chassis and, in its present form, the Russian army is clearly not needed. Some haphazard approach leads to sad thoughts.

Logically, it is necessary to create a whole range of wheeled armored vehicles on a single platform. An example to follow is the Stryker KBM family. On the basis of an armored personnel carrier with a wheel formula 8х8, a reconnaissance vehicle, an 120-mm self-propelled mortar, a command and control, engineering and sanitary-evacuation vehicle, a self-propelled anti-tank system, a radiation-chemical reconnaissance vehicle and, finally, a fire support vehicle with an 105-mm gun were developed. The 155-mm self-propelled howitzer is designed. All of this technology is equipped with Stryker mechanized brigades of US ground forces. The same path is now being followed in the armies of many other countries. No need to explain how the availability of a single chassis reduces the cost of production and operation of combat vehicles, facilitates the training of personnel. In the case of the adoption of the "Centaur" in service with the Russian army, there can be no question of any unification.

In fairness it should be noted that attempts have been made to design unified families of combat vehicles on the chassis of wheeled armored personnel carriers, but again, some unsystematic. BTR-60 served mainly as a base for numerous command posts, command and control vehicles, etc. The same can be said about the BTR-70 - it was no further to create communication vehicles and mobile command posts. However, in the 1968 – 1973 years, the Petrel Research Institute (the leading scientific research institute for medium and large-caliber artillery weapons) developed the 85-mm towed anti-tank gun 2А55 “Sting-B” and 85-mm self-propelled anti-tank 2 –N.N.N.X. The latter was a rotating turret with a gun mounted on the body of the BTR-14. To do this, the armored personnel carrier had to eliminate the troop compartment. Both systems successfully passed field tests, but were not accepted for service. The fact is that the armor penetration capability of the 70-mm sub-caliber projectile was 85 times less than the ammunition of the 1,5-mm D-125 tank gun. Apparently, this was the main reason for the cessation of work on the sting guns. The prototype 81C2 is now in the tank museum in Kubinka.

The BTR-80 was a bit more fortunate - in addition to various command and staff vehicles, BREM, an armored medical machine, an RCM machine and a self-propelled 120-mm Nona-SVK gun were created on its base. However, he did not become a real single platform for KBM.

It was possible to create a more or less full-fledged fire support vehicle only on the BTR-90 chassis. We are talking about a car with a combat module "Bakhcha-U" and a weapon system equivalent to the BMP-3, which was shown at the IDEX-2001 exhibition.

Apparently, the reason for the failures in the creation of the KBM with heavy weapons on the chassis of domestic armored personnel carriers was their layout. Western armored personnel carriers with aft location of the troop compartment are much better suited to accommodate heavy weapons.

So, we made sure that there is a place for the “Centaur” in the Russian army. Such a machine is clearly not superfluous. But a systematic approach is needed, the development of a domestic armored car of this class is needed based on the unified 8x8 platform and within the framework of the KBM family. In its present form, "Centaur" we do not need. As a temporary measure, in principle, the appearance of some intermediate synthesized sample, such as the chassis from the "Centaur", but with a tower from the "Sprut" or something like that is acceptable. In the end, weapons on the "Centaur" in any case does not suit us. Or did the Ministry of Defense decide to switch to NATO calibers? Not to know about it last.

And in general, somehow everything is strange here. How to choose the "Mistral" (and why?) - It is not clear, "Lynx" - is also unclear. Now here is the "Centaur." And why, in fact, the "Centaur"? Why not "Ruikat" or some "Movag." Why are the Italians again, again IVECO? Or the Ministry of Defense is not aware of the existence of other types of heavy weapons with a heavy weapon? If we are talking only about familiarization, then that's okay. If, however, about the acquisition of a license, it becomes somehow sad that there is no alternative to the choice and secrecy of the process. Alas, not the first time.
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134 comments
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  1. Dmitriy69
    Dmitriy69 29 May 2012 12: 31
    +20
    Such a machine is good in the savannah or in the steppe. In the mountains or in the forest, she is not a tenant, there is no ability to accept close combat.
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 29 May 2012 12: 40
      +12
      Does our army need a "wheeled tank"

      There is no army, the Ministry of Defense certainly needs.
      Dmitry wrote correctly, the savannah, the steppe, well, or where they are fighting there now, in the vast Libya, and in the swamp near Moscow ......., if they even do wonders on the highway
      1. Cadet787
        Cadet787 29 May 2012 20: 00
        +1
        Greetings, Vadim. This "stool" has obviously muddied the new rollback scheme. I propose to put this bastard in a wheeled tank and let him go to such a mother, away from Russia.
        1. Krilion
          Krilion 30 May 2012 04: 41
          +6
          Quote: Cadet787
          This "stool" has obviously muddied the new rollback scheme. I propose to put this bastard in a wheeled tank and let him go to such a mother, away from Russia.



          there’s a boss over the stool, without the knowledge and permission of whom he cannot fart ... I think it would be right to send them on a trip together ... I don’t understand the reasons why many consider the Commander-in-Chief unscrupulous to stool tricks .. they either do it jointly, or the commander in chief has no idea what his minister is doing, even worse ...
        2. pribolt
          pribolt 30 May 2012 05: 22
          +1
          Yes, indeed there Iveco probably managed to agree on a rollback
          1. Yoshkin Kot
            Yoshkin Kot 30 May 2012 08: 46
            -3
            Yeah, they didn’t share it with you laughing swapping
        3. Yoshkin Kot
          Yoshkin Kot 30 May 2012 08: 45
          -4
          Yeah, that's just your opinion forgot to ask laughing
          and where are the cries on duty about the banduputin support? better go to the branch where the stool put the corvette into the water
    2. Kars
      Kars 29 May 2012 12: 41
      +12
      Does our army need a wheeled tank?
      Fit.
      BUT it’s not Italian, if someone else is equal, then it’s better that Yuarovsky has much more experience in combat operation.
      1. Alexei
        Alexei 29 May 2012 12: 48
        +5
        What about a hovercraft howitzer?
        1. Kars
          Kars 29 May 2012 12: 54
          +19
          All the same, I’m more pleased with NONA.
          On a more powerful chassis, its armament will be what it needs ---- an anti-tank gun is not particularly necessary.
          1. Vadivak
            Vadivak 29 May 2012 14: 36
            +8
            China, again, CAO on a wheeled armored personnel carrier Type 92 chassis with a 120-mm "howitzer-mortar" turret, presented by the Chinese NORINCO Corporation.
          2. Yoshkin Kot
            Yoshkin Kot 30 May 2012 08: 47
            0
            compare mortar with a camillefo gun?
            1. Sehiru san
              Sehiru san 30 May 2012 22: 23
              0
              This is normal. There is this type of weaponry. For example 2A80-1 on the "Host" ACS
              http://topwar.ru/7933-sao-2s34-hosta.html
          3. Sehiru san
            Sehiru san 30 May 2012 11: 14
            0
            Mobile anti-tank self-propelled guns are not needed. It is a fact. A set of ATGMs on a jeep and crying tanks. A howitzer, this is necessary. wink
        2. Splin
          Splin 29 May 2012 12: 55
          +6
          It's like in the movie "Sergeant Bilko" - there was a flying tank. The gun has a minimum of 14 tons!
        3. Splin
          Splin 29 May 2012 13: 20
          0
          [quote] [And howitzer hovercraft? / quote]
          It's like in the movie "Sergeant Bilko" - there was a flying tank. The gun has a minimum of 14 tons!
      2. Starksa
        Starksa 29 May 2012 13: 28
        +7
        or such, only put wheels instead of tracks)))
      3. esaul
        esaul 29 May 2012 15: 14
        +7
        Quote: Kars
        if it’s on someone else’s equal, then it’s better that Yuarovsky

        Greetings, Andrew. I will support your opinion, but not as a connoisseur of tank technology, but as a reader of the same Baryatinsky, who perfectly, on real examples of the recent past, did not badly tell how the South African wheeled platform with cannon weapons successfully quite successfully opposed our Soviet tanks in African conflicts early modifications.
        1. Kars
          Kars 29 May 2012 18: 20
          +5
          Thank you. The JUAR experience is very interesting, and in Africa and the T-72 it feels good.

          The wheeled tank exhausted itself at the end of the 1990's, with the 1970-90 it had the same gun as the standard MBT NATO 105 mm, but now it makes no sense to put 120-125, it’s easier and more efficient to use PTurses.
      4. Korvin
        Korvin 29 May 2012 19: 01
        +5
        No, we don’t need the Wheel Tank Fighter (it’s more correct) because our probable opponents are not Somali gopas on old T55s, but regular tank units on Abrashi and Leopards (even Georgians), but the only suitable theater for using it is the Mongolian steppes. We need a Fire Support Vehicle / A machine with Heavy Armament in the family of wheeled vehicles of the DOMESTIC production similar to the Striker with a 105mm module.
        1. Yoshkin Kot
          Yoshkin Kot 30 May 2012 08: 49
          0
          each weapon has its own niche of application, a tank and a self-propelled gun, perfectly exist in parallel, as support for motorized infantry, has the right to be
        2. core
          core 30 May 2012 11: 00
          0
          you are probably a Muscovite, and you don’t know how diverse the landscape of our country is, our mountains are just small, mostly plains and steppes.
    3. mkrass2006
      mkrass2006 29 May 2012 13: 38
      +2
      Curious to know the true purpose !!! which are pursued by the chapters ** trying to buy wheeled tanks. The public version does not inspire confidence in me personally.
      1. USAsha42
        USAsha42 29 May 2012 15: 33
        +1
        10% of the transaction value. They have it ...
        1. Tatars
          Tatars 29 May 2012 16: 05
          +5
          Yes, indeed, why everything Italian, German is many times better. Something is not right here, very suspiciously
          1. Ziksura
            Ziksura 29 May 2012 18: 43
            +2
            Quote: Tatars
            why everything Italian, German is many times better.

            Are the Germans ready to sell technology? That is the question. But in general, the tank was not impressed. Outdated by twenty years. Yes and not really needed.
            1. Yoshkin Kot
              Yoshkin Kot 30 May 2012 08: 51
              +1
              but it’s not a hindrance to touch with your hands, maybe as a result, we’ll do it ourselves, because we have a lot of Papuans on the border, and the quick transfer of artillery along the roads hasn’t stopped anyone
          2. core
            core 30 May 2012 11: 02
            0
            Germany has limited sovereignty, and it cannot help but sell without the approval of the United States, England, and France, and all these countries are arms exporters.
        2. VAF
          VAF 29 May 2012 18: 13
          +4
          Quote: USasha42
          10% of the transaction value. They have it ...


          Here, let me disagree with you, dear .... but on the other hand, that "They have this ......" is definitely +! bully

          When concluding such "contracts" ("interesting" transactions), as a rule, a separate contract (verbal agreement) is concluded on ..... compensated provision of informational, legal and engineering-economic services in the field of acquisition or sale ..... ......... techniques.

          How "accepted" .... the amount of "remuneration" varies within 1.5% -3.5% of the amount of the main (official) contract: usually from 1 to 10 million -3.5%, from 10-30-2.0% and already higher up to 100 million -1.5%
          Over 100 million -1%.

          And you immediately 10% .... ??? !!! request then it was possible after any one-time transaction the rest of my life to live in the Canaries ..... bully

          And it is cheaper for the supplier to drive an asphalt roller and a dump truck with asphalt and ... And then ask a new, more accommodating "lobbyist" or "appoint them" !!! tongue

          Remember Misha-2% .... knew "the limits of reason", so he lives long live, but forgot about Hodor and got into politics, so they immediately "reminded" (about a dacha of 15 hectares on the coast .....) and everything ... Misha ... again "white and fluffy" !!! love

          In everything you need to know the measure ..... !!! drinks
      2. alexng
        alexng 29 May 2012 19: 36
        -2
        What for ass harmony? request fool
        Answer: Harmony is a small, underdeveloped BODY. laughing
        A tank on wheels is the same as the accordion, only the side view
      3. Yoshkin Kot
        Yoshkin Kot 30 May 2012 08: 50
        -1
        how do you not know? mustache steal! banduputin support! laughing
    4. 755962
      755962 29 May 2012 17: 02
      +2
      Quote: Dmitriy69
      In the mountains or in the forest, she is not a tenant

      The new "wheeled tanks" were supposed to equip intelligence units and highly mobile "alpine" brigades ground forces. There were no worthy goals for the powerful Centaur weapon in Somalia, but cars showed pretty decent reliability and high traffic. However, booking the "Centaurs" was not enough against DShK machine gun bullets, and even more so against RPG-7 grenade launchers. This led to the equipment of these "wheeled tanks" with mounted active armor sets.
    5. mind1954
      mind1954 29 May 2012 20: 05
      -1
      Such South African wonderful machines were perfectly fucked in T-34 Angola.
    6. rinzhak
      rinzhak 30 May 2012 10: 51
      0
      Quote: Dmitriy69
      Such a machine is good in the savannah or in the steppe.

      I strongly disagree, in the sand, heavy armored vehicles on a wheeled chassis will simply get stuck, it is pointless to provide for automatic changes in tire pressure, rubber simply can not withstand the load. A tank is a tank, and should not lose its main value - the swiftness of the attack, regardless of the terrain!
  2. YARY
    YARY 29 May 2012 12: 40
    +1
    Dmitry you are wrong!
    In the mountains, it will work great!
    That's about the forest, I can’t say.
    But the mountains and the desert are its element.
    By the way about the photo with the accident-
    Vadim this is not a Centaur, and yet, there are different carriers!
    1. Alexei
      Alexei 29 May 2012 12: 52
      +4
      You are right about the mountains. Nothing bears tracks like stones.
      1. Dmitriy69
        Dmitriy69 29 May 2012 15: 04
        +6
        Quote: Alexej
        Nothing bears tracks like stones.

        Mountains kill any technique. Such is her fate to die herself and save people. Can a centaur save anyone?
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak 29 May 2012 15: 44
          +7
          Quote: Dmitriy69
          Mountains kill any technique.


          That's for sure, even the snow groomers die like flies
    2. Dust
      Dust 29 May 2012 12: 58
      +4
      In the mountains, in general, there is no place for cars - neither wheeled nor tracked!
      1. Alexei
        Alexei 29 May 2012 13: 10
        0
        Quote: Dust
        In the mountains, in general, there is no place for cars - neither wheeled nor tracked!

        And where do they have a place, on the highway?
        1. Dust
          Dust 29 May 2012 14: 01
          +4
          You yourself answered your question ...
          1. Alexei
            Alexei 29 May 2012 14: 04
            0
            Quote: Dust
            You yourself answered your question ...

            And I wanted you to answer and preferably deployed.
            1. Dust
              Dust 29 May 2012 14: 33
              +3
              Have you been to the mountains? If they were, they would not require a detailed answer!
        2. Volgar
          Volgar 29 May 2012 14: 28
          +2
          But what about the South Korean mountain tank?
    3. Pinochet000
      Pinochet000 29 May 2012 15: 10
      +4
      Quote: Ardent
      In the mountains, it will work great!

      Yeah, especially if you look at the elevation angles of the gun
      Quote: Ardent
      That's about the forest, I can’t say

      And in the forest, and in the city to apply technology with such protection suicide.
      As a mobile vehicle, it’s possible that it’s true that the first stage has 8 shells (for the 105mm version) ..... my opinion is that it is not needed in RA, in BB
    4. stas52
      stas52 30 May 2012 10: 01
      0
      The elevation angles of the implement are from -6 ° to + 15 °.
      And these are BMP-1 corners. HV angles, degrees. 4 ... + 30. Due to the small trunk lift in Afghanistan, the crews themselves strengthened the Flame on the AGS-17 tower, which improved the combat properties of the vehicle in mountain conditions.
      As you can see, even 30 ° was not enough, but here 15. here is the answer.
      application: The first Chechen war [49] - due to the low efficiency and limited elevation angles of the 2A28 guns, the BMP-1 during the first Chechen campaign were used mainly as a means of supplying ammunition for assault groups, as well as to strengthen roadblocks [53].
  3. shim
    shim 29 May 2012 12: 40
    +4
    I think that for our open spaces and off-road this car is not suitable because the biggest plus of this car is speed. Of course, if in the future we want to go to Europe, then we will need such machines. Well, I think that by then we will do something abrupt
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 29 May 2012 16: 41
      +7
      Quote: shim
      Well, I think that by then we will do something abrupt


      Yes, we did the USSR experimental 2C14 series
  4. Splin
    Splin 29 May 2012 12: 41
    +2
    Interesting. and what the Centaur will do in the Marine Corps. God bless him that it’s hard to go ashore on wheels, you still have to swim to him.
  5. andrey903
    andrey903 29 May 2012 12: 43
    +1
    In the city, she obviously will not last long
    1. Tersky
      Tersky 29 May 2012 12: 56
      +5
      Quote: andrey903
      In the city, she obviously will not last long

      Given his armor, he will not last long where. Given the marching speed, his mission is to quickly transfer to the database area to suppress the armored and manpower of the enemy together with his own tank units.
  6. Manager
    Manager 29 May 2012 12: 53
    +1
    It is needed in limited quantities in certain places. For example, as Yaryoy wrote in the mountains.
    1. Splin
      Splin 29 May 2012 13: 04
      +4
      And what the hell is she in the mountains, if the tower has a tank mask. Accordingly, the elevation angle is not more than 20 degrees.
      1. Alexei
        Alexei 29 May 2012 13: 24
        +1
        So you need to make it wider and longer. And managed springs)
      2. vorobey
        vorobey 29 May 2012 15: 57
        +3
        Dumps, tankers have their secrets on how to raise or lower the elevation angle.
        1. Splin
          Splin 29 May 2012 19: 40
          +2
          Y \ No way you can do it in a coordinated way. Domestic tanks have an elevation angle of 15 rad, Ariete and Leopard have 18-20, respectively. Even "playing" with a transmission or with a wheeled car, lowering the pressure in the rear tires (which cannot be done at all for the front MTO), you will not increase the angle by no more than 5 glad .. There are Afghans, they will confirm. The teacher told us how in the early 80s they shouted with joy when the BMP-2 arrived because there was no sense in the BMP tower in the mountains.
          1. vorobey
            vorobey 30 May 2012 09: 38
            +1
            Spleen agrees that it will not radically change. But the DB tactics in the mountains are somewhat different. tanks were used as a long arm on blocks and, less frequently, when escorting convoys as a lightning device with KMT.
            1. Splin
              Splin 30 May 2012 10: 41
              0
              tanks were used as a long arm on blocks

              And why then in the mountains a light tank, if such a machine as a tank plays the role of a mobile bunker?
              1. rinzhak
                rinzhak 30 May 2012 10: 57
                0
                Quote: Splin
                And why then in the mountains a light tank, if such a machine as a tank plays the role of a mobile bunker?

                I agree, there is no tactical expediency to use tank companies in the mountains, for this there are mobile ATGMs, mortars and aviation in the end.
      3. Pinochet000
        Pinochet000 30 May 2012 09: 50
        0
        Quote: Splin
        Accordingly, the elevation angle is not more than 20 degrees

        The elevation angles of the gun vary from -6 to +15
        1. Splin
          Splin 30 May 2012 10: 38
          0
          Attention! You do not have permission to view hidden text.
          Our western armor shells have a slightly larger range of angle changes .. And we are discussing the Italian Centaur.
          1. Pinochet000
            Pinochet000 31 May 2012 00: 36
            0
            The article angles for the Centaur from -6 to +15
  7. Dust
    Dust 29 May 2012 13: 01
    +3
    The very idea of ​​installing a tank gun on a wheeled chassis is highly questionable!
    It’s much more justifiable to sculpt the same Nona - you still have to try to meet with tanks in modern conflicts, but you always need to support your infantry with fire ...
    1. Splin
      Splin 29 May 2012 13: 08
      +2
      What are you all about NONA. 2A52 gun is out of date. It is necessary to put 2A80 as in Vienna.
      1. Sehiru san
        Sehiru san 29 May 2012 18: 17
        +3
        Slip of the pen.
        They wanted to put 2A52 on "Hyacinth - SK" (152 mm). And the predecessor of 2A80 was 2A51
  8. AK-74-1
    AK-74-1 29 May 2012 13: 27
    +4
    I believe that the wheeled platform is taking place. This was proved by our armored personnel carriers and BRDM. Only this platform is needed in the Internal Troops of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, for border guards. There, in a short time, it is necessary to transfer funds with sufficient firepower to the threatened area. Both for direct participation in the clash and for working from closed positions. Such equipment can also be useful on a European theater (Poland, Austria, the Baltic states). To break through the defense, we use heavy motorized rifle and tank formations, and to develop success on the German and French freeways, wheeled vehicles. For reconnaissance units, KBM can be used. Thus, for the rapid reaction forces (airborne and marines) and explosives, it is necessary to have a KBM in conjunction with a lightweight crawler platform like BMD-4M (both platforms are necessarily floating). On these platforms, unification for Armament and LMS is possible. For heavy moment-rifle and tank brigades, a heavy tracked platform (tank and heavy infantry fighting vehicle) is needed. The main condition of such platforms is the loading ability in the VTA (IL-76, AN-124).
    The centaur doesn't inspire. I like BTR-90 with "Bakhchi" more.
    1. Dust
      Dust 29 May 2012 14: 03
      -1
      How to sing. as he sings - archistratig, you can’t say anything!
      And through the English Channel how? Foreseen?
      And along the roads, locals with flowers meet the liberators?
      1. Viking
        Viking 29 May 2012 18: 32
        +3
        Quote: Dust
        And through the English Channel how? Foreseen?

        And the Georgians, by the way, were also confident (they acted so impudently) that the Russian armored vehicle would not pass through the Roki tunnel, there was even a miracle a group of saboteurs was thrown there for this (according to other sources, two), but then the General Staff of the Russian Federation is fine understood the importance and vulnerability of this "ribbon". So they met and ensured the passage of the columns and the functioning of the tunnel. By the way, I remembered this.
    2. Vadivak
      Vadivak 29 May 2012 16: 32
      +9
      Quote: AK-74-1
      I like BTR-90 with "Bakhchi" more.


      And so? based on BTR-90
      1. Sehiru san
        Sehiru san 29 May 2012 18: 29
        +4
        The creation of mobile wheeled self-propelled guns for shelling (howitzers, mortars, guns) makes sense. The creation of wheeled anti-tank self-propelled guns frankly is the 50s. When there was no ATGM. This does not make sense now. wink
        1. Diesel
          Diesel 11 September 2012 12: 56
          0
          I agree, 2 open Oise with Cornets will solve the problem much better (and even cheaper) than this Italian miracle ...
      2. Splin
        Splin 29 May 2012 19: 46
        +1
        Was it a real prototype? In Neta, only pictures come across. Powerful 120 (125) mm gun. cannot be inserted into a wheel car with a rear engine assembly.
        1. Brother Sarych
          Brother Sarych 29 May 2012 22: 27
          -1
          And who said that? They set ...
          1. Splin
            Splin 29 May 2012 22: 32
            0
            [hide] [/ hide] You can read about this information somewhere.
    3. Sehiru san
      Sehiru san 29 May 2012 18: 24
      +1
      It `s naturally. his weapons are more flexible. There is a choice of means of destruction. But this is an armored personnel carrier or infantry fighting vehicle. Self-propelled guns are created for certain purposes and naturally lack flexibility.
  9. lotus04
    lotus04 29 May 2012 13: 39
    +8
    Does our army need a wheeled tank?

    This ancient NATO Italian scrap metal is NOT !!!
  10. WOW
    WOW 29 May 2012 14: 06
    +12
    Hmm ... how tired of the whining of the leavened "patriots." As a person who knows a little about promising developments in the field of combat wheeled vehicles, I can say the following.
    1) The author, the development of a unified platform for a light, middle class combat wheeled vehicle by mass is in full swing, so there is no need to worry about this.
    2) A centaur machine is needed, first of all, for our developers, I understand that there are few designers, but an idiot understands that it’s much faster and cheaper to learn someone else’s accumulated experience than to invent a bicycle where it has been around for many years. No one is going to copy it, but why the hell not to use tried and tested technical solutions?
    1. lelyk72
      lelyk72 29 May 2012 15: 18
      0
      What does buying a license have to do with "using tried and tested solutions"?
      Buy two for experiments, yes. Conducted experiments, adopted experience and all !!!
      1. vorobey
        vorobey 29 May 2012 16: 00
        +4
        Who bought the centaur license, an example
        1. Viking
          Viking 29 May 2012 18: 34
          +1
          Quote: vorobey
          Who bought the centaur license, an example

          Is "she" really bought? Are there reliable sources?
          1. vorobey
            vorobey 30 May 2012 09: 41
            +1
            No. and there will be no license. I don't need her.
      2. core
        core 30 May 2012 11: 13
        0
        But what about patent law, if you get a successful technique, we will begin to sell it, and we will be sued in the courts.
    2. Sehiru san
      Sehiru san 29 May 2012 22: 59
      0
      It is logical. Here are just anti-tank self-propelled guns to do nothing. There is an ATGM (and more mobile). But on this base to mold an armored, mobile wheeled howitzer (with something like a 2A52) It was not very successfully tried to put it on the "Hyacinth-SK" And here it can be placed in the tower. Fortunately, her back is spacious enough. Convenient, mobile, powerful. You won't be lucky on an APC, that would be useful. We do not have a suitable chassis at the moment.
      Yes, and just as a role model you can use.
  11. ANTURAG
    ANTURAG 29 May 2012 14: 45
    +2
    Maybe a wheeled tank is needed, I do not argue. But this is not junk, that's for sure!
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 29 May 2012 16: 46
      +2
      Quote: ANTURAG
      Maybe a wheeled tank is needed



      Such? object 1200 USSR 73mm
      1. Korvin
        Korvin 29 May 2012 19: 17
        +2
        Wow! Yes, he will not be ashamed to roll out modern materials in armor and a remote module like Lance RS and on Eurosatori.
        1. Alexey Prikazchikov
          Alexey Prikazchikov 29 May 2012 20: 47
          +1
          I really didn’t expect it was a pity that I didn’t go to the series and it looks very modern now.
  12. McFly
    McFly 29 May 2012 14: 45
    +2
    Russia needs only a caterpillar, and for such tanks, let them first make the roads normal laughing .
  13. zaur
    zaur 29 May 2012 14: 56
    -3
    I think VV will be needed to fight the partisans. The tanks are redundant inside the country and the asphalt spoils and the resource of the chassis and engine is small. So you need a wheeled vehicle with a civil diesel. But I think the PT gun is not needed, the 122mm howitzer gun is better.
    1. Viking
      Viking 29 May 2012 18: 38
      0
      Quote: zaur

      I think VV will be needed to fight the partisans

      Excuse me ??? On the territory of Russia, partisans ceased to operate in the cities. so 1944. No more partisans appeared on the territory of Russia.
      1. alex shnajder
        alex shnajder 29 May 2012 21: 53
        -1
        I think will appear soon ((
        1. Yoshkin Kot
          Yoshkin Kot 30 May 2012 08: 57
          -1
          do not wait (s) soon you blaze
    2. Sehiru san
      Sehiru san 29 May 2012 23: 02
      0
      Absolutely agree. There are ATGM tanks. And they are much more mobile.
      1. core
        core 30 May 2012 11: 16
        0
        it's like ATGM mobile? clarify.
        1. Sehiru san
          Sehiru san 30 May 2012 12: 42
          0
          Yes, elementary. For example, we take cornet D. It is even carried out in a portable version - 26 kg + rocket 29 kg. Stvv on "Tiger" + several missiles included and forward. In open terrain, from 10 km "it will take everything" One complex can kill several tanks before they get close to it for a shot. Calculation of 2 people + driver + can be a fighter with a cover-type assault rifle.
          In addition, it can fill up the vert and destroy the pillbox. (Thermobaric warhead version is provided) There is a version of 4 launchers that is proposed to be installed on an infantry fighting vehicle or armored personnel carrier.
          Already the "tiger" will run far faster than the "centaur". wink
  14. Cadet787
    Cadet787 29 May 2012 15: 14
    +10
    It seems to me that all these shy things from side to side are due to the lack of a clear armament plan and promising developments, and if there is one, it is not fulfilled. Armament is developed under the military doctrine. The Supreme Commander-in-Chief should intervene in this matter and put things in order, measure the Defense Ministry and the military-industrial complex, otherwise we will have what we have, we need to show firmness, this interagency squabble only destroys our defense shield.
    1. lelyk72
      lelyk72 29 May 2012 16: 32
      +2
      I wanted to put three +, the system does not give. Last year, regarding the "bickering ......" VGK said that "in recent times, the participants in this bickering would already be in places not so distant." In my opinion, it's time, but some people and to the wall - for example, generals, for kickbacks living ...
    2. core
      core 30 May 2012 11: 20
      0
      we have that commander in chief super special? military doctrine has been developed and rolled around for years. and our military academies divided the land in the suburbs, but they built cottages, did not think about science, and how he pressed taburetkin to the fingernails, screamed at the top of his mouth that they wanted to ruin military science. Maybe in no other place military science can develop, except in Moscow.
  15. Ribwort
    Ribwort 29 May 2012 15: 18
    +3
    It seems that the Ministry of Defense is grabbing at any idea for which you can write off money from the budget. Obviously outdated, in the case of any large-scale military operations, the survivability is lower than that of the analogue on the tracks. So, the question is, what for? And against whom are you going to fight on it?
  16. Alef
    Alef 29 May 2012 15: 20
    +1
    There is no need for such a tank for the Russian Armed Forces. It costs a lot to buy licenses from Italy, then deploy the whole production. It is necessary to improve our samples of technology and not to buy foreign trash!
    1. Yoshkin Kot
      Yoshkin Kot 30 May 2012 08: 59
      -1
      would my friend from the Bolshoi?
  17. Strashila
    Strashila 29 May 2012 15: 43
    +1
    Perhaps the very idea of ​​an artillery mount on a wheeled chassis has a right to life, but the question is different, why our MO did not deign to give technical specifications to our developer and manufacturers ... did not give out for one simple reason ... there are no such thoughts. If we proceed from the logic of the question it was worth buying similar cars from different manufacturers and comparing, identifying the strengths and weaknesses of a different approach to solving this issue. and why Iveco is a matter for the military prosecutor's office and counterintelligence.
    1. volcano
      volcano 29 May 2012 16: 58
      +4
      Dear Strashila. Do not get me wrong, only here you are confusing all the same a tank and a gun mount. the discussed technique is still declared as a tank .. Of course it has a gun, but as they say, not everything that has a gun is called artillery. There are also TANKS. And we have gun mounts. "Carnation", "Acacia", the Airborne Forces have a self-propelled mortar "Nona". Considering that it is the artillery that is the "Tank Destroyer", many Colleagues do not understand why, in the presence of their own good self-propelled artillery, they should acquire this TANK and assign the above functions to it. As a tank, it is certainly weak in armor. And as artillery there is no need at all. Full of his goodness.
      1. Strashila
        Strashila 29 May 2012 18: 05
        +2
        The word tank, as it has historically snuggled into tracked vehicles. And here specifically anti-tank gun mounts on a wheeled chassis, the question of the degree of armor protection and more.
        1. Splin
          Splin 29 May 2012 19: 56
          +1
          The word tank, as it has historically snuggled into tracked vehicles
          And who scored the stob for the caterpillar mover that he is precisely a characteristic feature of the tank. Before the war, the tanks were wheeled and tracked (BT, T-28 series, Polish 10TR) i.e. its main movement on wheels. With the account of the developed road network in Europe, this is not without meaning. Here are the fierce Poles and the Belgians who are now developing light tanks.
      2. core
        core 30 May 2012 11: 22
        0
        We do not have highly mobile artillery. you embellish the situation.
  18. atos_kin
    atos_kin 29 May 2012 15: 43
    +1
    More domestic weapons and good things!
  19. apro
    apro 29 May 2012 15: 51
    -2
    In Russia, you need a tank and not a plywood rattle, it is understood that the Italian has no protection.
    1. lelyk72
      lelyk72 29 May 2012 16: 00
      +4
      Well, I think the question "what the army needs" should be decided by the military after all.
      And the tasks of the plywood rattle are completely different than those of the tank.
    2. Viking
      Viking 29 May 2012 18: 40
      +3
      Quote: apro
      In Russia, you need a tank

      Like Mouse, huh? (for those who understand) .... We need a shuffling nomenclature, actions, and in the current rapidly changing circumstances and concepts.
      1. Ziksura
        Ziksura 29 May 2012 19: 00
        +2
        Quote: Viking
        Mouse type,

        Russia certainly doesn't need the "Mouse" type.
        1. apro
          apro 30 May 2012 12: 11
          -1
          Now we need a well-defended dynamic tank capable of battle in the city, it does not look like an Italian at all.
  20. RUSmen
    RUSmen 29 May 2012 16: 05
    0
    I see no need for such a car. It would be better to have repaired and modernized kokaya already. For example, the Cleaver system replaces old turrets with armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, etc. I myself served as a tanker (T80, T72) - a miracle of technology.
  21. Vadim555
    Vadim555 29 May 2012 16: 19
    +1
    Open appeal to the Administration.

    I ask you to delete (ban) my account.
    Three appeals to the admin in PM with this request,
    were rejected by him.
    I would like to "disperse" beautifully, but it does not work.
    I have no choice but to go-
    In the "campaign" for the "eternal" ban, typing 10 warnings, posting
    this appeal in different forum threads.

    4 warning - ban for two days;
    7 warnings - ban on 10 days;
    9 warnings - ban on 30 days;
    10 warnings - an eternal ban.
    1. Viking
      Viking 29 May 2012 18: 41
      +1
      Quote: Vadim555
      I ask you to delete (ban) my account.

      That's purely curious, why? What would be registered under the new?
      1. Oleg0705
        Oleg0705 29 May 2012 18: 48
        -3
        Viking Today, 18: 41


        I minced if that


        Vadim, can I help you somehow?
        1. Viking
          Viking 29 May 2012 18: 58
          -1
          Quote: Oleg0705
          I minced if that

          And what? What am I supposed to do about this?
          1. Oleg0705
            Oleg0705 29 May 2012 19: 02
            -3
            Quote: Viking
            What would be registered under the new?


            probably it’s not worth asking the question
            there are many who have many nicknames

            Yes, I also put a minus not secretly, like many

            but this is not a challenge.
            1. Viking
              Viking 29 May 2012 19: 24
              +1
              Quote: Oleg0705
              there are many who have many nicknames

              Yes, to see their rest of life (outside the forum) does not make them happy, since they have to register for some reason (why? To earn "cardboard" epaulets?) Several times to register on the forum.
              1. Aleksey67
                Aleksey67 29 May 2012 19: 28
                -1
                Quote: Viking
                Yes, to see their rest of life (outside the forum) does not make them happy, since they have to register for some reason (why? To earn "cardboard" epaulettes?) Several times on the forum.

                I plus, because I also asked such a question. smile Especially Azerbaijani citizens have succeeded in this. winked
                1. Oleg0705
                  Oleg0705 29 May 2012 20: 22
                  -3
                  because I also asked such a question



                  and who will be the next reincarnation? winked
                  1. Aleksey67
                    Aleksey67 29 May 2012 20: 24
                    -1
                    Quote: Oleg0705
                    and when will the next reincarnation be?

                    I have one nickname and I don’t put any advantages for myself
                    1. Oleg0705
                      Oleg0705 29 May 2012 20: 29
                      -3
                      but what the hell are they for you ??? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

                      bully bully bully
                      1. Oleg0705
                        Oleg0705 29 May 2012 20: 46
                        -3
                        wondering where the novosiberian disappeared request crying
                      2. Rezun
                        Rezun 29 May 2012 21: 27
                        -1
                        From the forum --- Novosibirsk has another account (will we train our brains? yes)
                      3. Oleg0705
                        Oleg0705 29 May 2012 21: 31
                        -3
                        Well, you took a rattle yourself !! what and at the expense of brains where to get them then? request
              2. Oleg0705
                Oleg0705 29 May 2012 19: 30
                -3
                Quote: Viking
                It smacks of delirium and without any "minuses", it does not seem.


                there is such a thing, I myself do not mind cardboard ordinary, even though
                but in the case of Vadim I don’t understand, his decision is probably the reason
  22. Diesel
    Diesel 29 May 2012 16: 36
    -2
    It’s better to upgrade the 4500 stored T-80s than to cut money for it.
    1. Viking
      Viking 29 May 2012 18: 56
      +6
      Quote: Diesel
      It’s better to upgrade the 4500 stored T-80s than to cut money for it.

      And before that, huge quantities of T-60 and T-55 were stored (some even saw it in military operations), and even before that, armades T-34 and T-44 were stored. That is all so and we will store them and put them as a trump card, even considering the fact that many of them with a serious breakdown will have nothing to repair. The reserve is certainly good, but we must look at the realities.

      And the realities are such that from the columns of the Tsentropodvoz in Chechnya, all tracked vehicles have disappeared as a class, they are very much killing the road, and if after 10 (suppose) tanks and infantry fighting vehicles that have passed through the spring rise in Argun, the URAL will try to pass or " Loaf". It is unlikely that they will succeed.
      So in the columns there was only one wheeled vehicle with the corresponding small caliber and ZU-23 and URAL bodies. And if it were something 105, 125 mm on a wheeled drive, it would not hurt at all (at least).
      As they say, every vegetable has its own fruit. And not one of the sane participants (such as 99% here) doesn’t even call, right tomorrow, finally and irrevocably, to abandon the tracked tanks (God forbid), but here’s how the concept of a wheeled, well-cleaned combat vehicle with a small caliber gun - very, very interesting.
      1. Sehiru san
        Sehiru san 29 May 2012 23: 12
        +1
        Wheel anti-tank self-propelled guns do not make sense when there is ATGM. Mobile wheel howitzers, mortars and guns are very necessary.
        1. core
          core 30 May 2012 11: 27
          0
          petur as a defense tool. Yes, I agree, but what about fast counterattacks, flanking attacks with quick retreat on which technique do you plan to carry out? can you attach a wheel to a rope with a rope?
          1. Sehiru san
            Sehiru san 30 May 2012 13: 17
            0
            Many modern combat modules include ATGMs both as a separate element and using a 100 mm barrel as a launcher. The BMP-3 and Rostok have such modules. The option of installing PU blocks instead of the main armament is provided. In the end, installation on lightly armored "tigers" and other passenger cars is possible.
            1. core
              core 30 May 2012 17: 00
              0
              you remind me of our general sec. Khrushchev, we have missiles, we do not need airplanes.
              1. Sehiru san
                Sehiru san 30 May 2012 22: 41
                0
                We have tanks (by the way with ATGMs). Unas has BMPs with ATGMs. We have (theoretically) APCs with ATGMs. We just have ATGMs. Unas is a powerful self-propelled guns but tracked. But we do not have powerful wheeled self-propelled guns.
                And what is the need for light wheeled anti-tank self-propelled guns? After all, she could not stand a collision with a tank, and an ATGM in a jeep would get the tank beyond the capabilities of the tank.
  23. Su-47
    Su-47 29 May 2012 16: 47
    +4
    We have Sprut-SD. Nice, fast car with a great gun and bulletproof armor. Plus, it swims well.
    1. Splin
      Splin 29 May 2012 20: 05
      0
      Solasen, a great addition to the BMP-3 for marines. Tracked mover makes it easy to go ashore. Since the Marines only capture the bridgehead, they do not need powerful artillery for howitzer shooting. They are supported from the sea.
  24. CKAHguHAB
    CKAHguHAB 29 May 2012 16: 55
    0
    It’s worth considering: re-equipment is underway - most of the military factories are loaded with the implementation of the state defense order. And this order is not small (for the current state of these plants after the difficult 90s) - since it is not possible to keep up with the deadlines.
    And since it is impossible to exclude the possibility of major conflicts (maybe regional wars - recall the words of Medvedev) - the Mistrals, Centaurs and more - this includes plugging holes and building up more or less modern weapons in service here and now (read 2-4 years )
    And where there is a major regional war, it’s not far from the world war, therefore, while we have money, we need to let them in and gradually bring the armed forces into positive condition ...
  25. Corporal
    Corporal 29 May 2012 16: 56
    0
    And how much is the IVECO stock today?
    And it’s better to acquire these tanks together with the crews ...
  26. uralkos
    uralkos 29 May 2012 16: 58
    +2
    The wheeled tank was not intended in battles with an equal enemy, because survivability is very small. A wheeled tank is tied to roads, for the most part, which is why the easiest way to detonate a landmine. A tracked vehicle prefers to move on the road, which reduces the chances of being undermined. In the fight against bandit formations, billions or millions of expenses on new equipment are not needed, it is enough to equip the same NONU with more modern electronic devices and optics, and put dynamic armor, if you like. Why such crazy expenses from scratch. It would be better to develop a good carbine for marines and assault forces, 8mm is it. And the penetration is great and the damage done is effective.
    1. Sehiru san
      Sehiru san 29 May 2012 23: 19
      0
      Here, in principle, they have already come to the conclusion that wheeled anti-tank self-propelled guns are not needed. Mobile Wheel howitzers, mortars and guns are very necessary.
      It would be better to develop a good carbine for marines and assault forces, 8mm is it.

      And about the carbine. And what is bad about the old Kalash 7,62x39? The most!
      And the penetration is great and the damage done is effective.
      laughing
      5,45x39 did not initially roll. It was the old one that enjoyed success in the world.
    2. core
      core 30 May 2012 11: 30
      0
      the tank always goes along the road, unless it's a battle. u kills this road to panos.
  27. RUSmen
    RUSmen 29 May 2012 17: 23
    +1
    A tank is a kind of "bunker on wheels" in which there is a gunner, machine gunner, sniper.
  28. Viking
    Viking 29 May 2012 17: 36
    +6
    True, there are rebels in their own territory

    In fact, they are called differently.
    In such conditions, it is hardly worth neglecting the possibility of a quick transfer of a motorized rifle connection to a given area on its own. Indeed, in some cases, transportation by air or by rail will take much more time. True, a quick transfer on its own is possible only if there is no armed tracked vehicle connection.

    Totally agree.
    Quote: uralkos
    The wheeled tank was not intended in battles with an equal enemy, because survivability is very small. Wheel tank tied to roads

    This type of wheeled armored personnel carriers (all kinds of modifications), especially with the formula 8X8, by definition, cannot move off the road. So much more often than not strange in the Chechen mud I observed tracked vehicles that had fallen tight, unlike the BTR-80/70
    Again, for some reason, an increase in firepower on existing platforms, like the same BTR-90, causes nothing but enthusiasm, as well as, for example, the appearance in the troops and special. parts of the Ministry of Internal Affairs "Tigers".
    But only if you slip the word "foreign analogue" or "joint development" - then the objections pour in (and often mutually exclusive) just like out of a grog of abundance. Don't you really want to have in the arsenal of the Russian Army weapons that meet world standards, and not even ancient, but native?
    In my opinion, the idea of ​​a "wheeled tank" is a really interesting project, especially in the light of local, fast-flowing and mobile wars. When, in a day, it would not be bad for a column of armored vehicles to reach the line of attack in the shortest possible time, since tomorrow there will already be a dug-in enemy waiting there.
    Further - the armor (in itself) in the light of recent developments is only the last line of defense of the machine, there is the so-called. "active armor" (often mounted), there are systems that strike and strike (ideally) missiles, enemy rocket-propelled grenades on the way. That is, there are also active means of defense .. Well, the "Centaur" is certainly not a panacea, and far from a ready-made solution, but as a new development in heavily armed wheeled armored vehicles, it is quite an interesting thing.
  29. TS3sta3
    TS3sta3 29 May 2012 17: 39
    +7
    Option from South Africa. The combat weight is 28 t. The frontal armor holds a projectile of 23 mm caliber. And the ZA-35 ZSU option

  30. Ivan Tarasov
    Ivan Tarasov 29 May 2012 18: 10
    +2
    It is important to get production technology, as well as build a modern assembly line.
    Based on this object, it is quite possible to make not a bad armored personnel carrier.
    It is the armored personnel carrier that our army needs, and already there, on the basis of the platform, various weapons can be set.
    Russian cooperation with Italy in the automotive industry is a time-tested tradition.
  31. rubikon_n
    rubikon_n 29 May 2012 18: 36
    -3
    Why Italy? Why armor from Germany? Why Mistral? Gentlemen - kickbacks, kickbacks and kickbacks again ..... Western companies have long ago understood the principle of working with the RF Ministry of Defense. So we are working ..... Why was Serdyukov left in office? MONEY.
    1. core
      core 30 May 2012 11: 32
      +1
      because this gentleman is clearly smarter than you.
  32. Pacifist
    Pacifist 29 May 2012 18: 53
    0
    2C25 is better for the conditions of our country. And it already is.
    They are preparing a unified platform, both heavy and medium ... what the hell is this lame Italian trash needed ... not clear .. request
  33. nycsson
    nycsson 29 May 2012 19: 38
    -2
    So if you need, then create your own !!! Mu ... ki gre.ban.ye !!! am am am am amThey are doing everything in order to destroy our military-industrial complex and make us dependent on the West, or maybe they will be saved by the economy !!!
    1. core
      core 30 May 2012 11: 33
      0
      such a machine is needed yesterday and today. and you offer it to us after-after tomorrow.
  34. cobra66
    cobra66 29 May 2012 19: 42
    -3
    Yes, we don’t need it, it’s better to stamp more tanks and infantry fighting vehicles
    1. Ivan Tarasov
      Ivan Tarasov 29 May 2012 19: 59
      0
      And the infantry, what to deliver?
      BTR - definitely needed.
      1. Splin
        Splin 29 May 2012 20: 10
        0
        Then initially you need to invent a machine for transporting personnel, and only then hang everything on it. As with the American Stryker.
        1. Ivan Tarasov
          Ivan Tarasov 29 May 2012 20: 32
          +3
          Of course, you can spend a lot of money on creating a domestic wheeled armored personnel carrier.
          But you can go the other way, buying a license (a license is also technology) for the production of a wheeled tank, and remake it for an armored personnel carrier, "The Centaur has all the possibilities for this.
          Skeptics will say that these are 90s technologies.
          Yes, but we don’t have eight of them yet - these are 60s technologies ...
          It is possible that the Centaur armored personnel carrier will soon take a place in the ranks of the RF Armed Forces.
          1. Splin
            Splin 29 May 2012 20: 41
            -2
            Why then buy a license for a car that the army does not need in order to remake it. Can Italians sell the new? Remember the Fiat 124.
            1. Ivan Tarasov
              Ivan Tarasov 29 May 2012 20: 44
              0
              Do Italians have a new armored personnel carrier?
              Frechchia, because on the basis of the same Centaur created.
              1. Splin
                Splin 29 May 2012 20: 52
                0
                Armored personnel carrier SUPERAV from IVECO. For Brazil, made its triaxial version of VBTP-MR
                1. Ivan Tarasov
                  Ivan Tarasov 29 May 2012 20: 57
                  0
                  Pay attention, made on the basis of the same "Freccia".
                  Consequently, initially the Centaur has a large reserve of modernization.
                  We will buy the basic model, and there already, we will select the optimal parameters for ourselves.
                  1. Splin
                    Splin 29 May 2012 21: 09
                    -2
                    The problem is that when we buy a license, we stop in development. We take new technologies and slow down further. Our car industry in the late 60s began to catch up with the world. More than half of Muscovites went for export and was competitively demanded in Western Europe. We bought a Lada and stood in development for 20 years.
                    1. Ivan Tarasov
                      Ivan Tarasov 29 May 2012 21: 24
                      +2
                      Not always like this.
                      Think of the Christie tank, the Wright-Cyclone aircraft engine, and so on.
                      The license in the field of armaments allows us to prepare a modern model in the shortest possible time, apparently even today, there is no time left for research and development, we have sagged too much, the army needs to be re-equipped urgently with modern equipment.
                      1. Splin
                        Splin 29 May 2012 21: 40
                        0
                        Solasen, but before the war, it was the same under Stalin. Money was invested in the economy for the long term. Therefore, there was no export component. And under Khrushchev they began to extract self-interest from everything. And now in our mercantile time. And by the way, Christie's tank was an unfinished technology and outdated. By the 41st year, Morozov proposed a torsion bar suspension on the T-34. The deceased Koshkin spoke of this at that time. Yes, and Cyclones, in fact, we had until the end of the war. New motors, but at the heart of the old design
                      2. Sehiru san
                        Sehiru san 30 May 2012 00: 01
                        +1
                        I agree. technology can sometimes be borrowed. (And the Chinese are not shy just to steal) Sometimes it’s useful to look around and add someone else’s to their good technology.
        2. Sehiru san
          Sehiru san 29 May 2012 23: 48
          -1
          We already have such. For example, why are the armored personnel carriers and "Nona SVK" bad? You can put new combat modules on the old chassis + screens and this is another level.
          Why was the BTR 90 hacked to death? It has several modifications, including the one with the "Bakhcha" and even the "Sprut-K" to put a little tight and small.
          Only here again, for some reason:
          MZ-187 Project 120 mm SAO based on the BTR-90. It was developed in a special design bureau of Motovilikhinskiye Zavody OJSC. The project provided for the placement of the combat compartment of the SAO 2S31 Vienna on the GAZ-5923 chassis. However, during the implementation of the technical proposal stage, the inexpediency of creating such a tool was revealed.
          sad
          1. Ivan Tarasov
            Ivan Tarasov 30 May 2012 00: 07
            0
            BTR - 90 can no longer fully meet modern requirements.
            We need a new, modern armored personnel carrier.
            As an armored personnel carrier, the Centaur is preferable to use with an uninhabited module (with a 30 mm cannon), it is important to increase the number of troops to 9 people, as well as to be able to overcome water obstacles (swim).
            1. Sehiru san
              Sehiru san 30 May 2012 13: 20
              0
              Why is he so bad? Is an armored personnel carrier better? belay Even if not with us, but in the world?
              1. Splin
                Splin 30 May 2012 13: 58
                0
                Our first BTR-s (40 and 152) were of the correct arrangement, with rear aft doors. When we created the BTR-60, questions arose about where to put the engines. You can’t put it in the central part, then with 2 engines there were a lot of problems. Yes, and the top is open and paratroopers where to dismount. And when they closed. Someone tried to land with the BTR-60? Very unpleasant thing. BTR-80 (82) (BTR-3) is the apogee of such a machine. There is no further point in developing it. The universal platform is now relevant. And such a machine layout is limited in its capabilities. The only plus is swimming well.
                The Ukrainian BTR-4 was therefore created with a similar muzzle shape in order to increase its stability. For the wedge-shaped shape of modern armored personnel carriers at speed through the water "bites" with their nose, even with a water-reflecting shield.
                1. Sehiru san
                  Sehiru san 30 May 2012 23: 14
                  0
                  There is such a moment. With 60 in general, just jump on top. With 80, with a certain skill, you can jump out on the go without hitting the wheels.
                  BMP in this regard is much more convenient.
                  And by the way, a question arises on this subject. But is it possible to say BMP-3 put on wheels? wink
                  1. Splin
                    Splin 31 May 2012 03: 53
                    0
                    There are onboard luy in the BTR-60PB. They even showed us in the school a training film how to dismount it properly. You have to be an acrobat. I did not see the BMP-3 live, only in the training film, too. Honestly, not a fountain, there to sit paratroopers. It is probably easier to make a new form of the machine than to put such a body on a wheel drive. Although the change of the mover from caterpillar to wheel is possible.
  35. Nechai
    Nechai 29 May 2012 20: 07
    0
    Quote: Dust
    And through the English Channel how? Foreseen?

    In Soviet times in the Kaliningrad region. one of the TPs on the T-62 was equipped with specially designed pantons. Panton off the coast, sunk at the appropriate depth. A tank with an installed anti-aircraft engine drives into it. The crew connects the air system of the tank to the pantone. Blows out ballast tanks. Ascent. Secures the car to the pantone. By breaking the goose and fixing it. It connects the drive wheels of the machine through panton gears to the propellers. All the tank is afloat. Can move, control everything too. Having entered a position near its coast, it is flooded. A tank tower is sticking out on the surface of the water. With one elbow of the OPVT pipe. The idea was to use such firing points for airborne defense of the coast. Commander-in-Chief Sukhoi Voisk of the General Army Sokolovsky experimented. One was a drawback - the engine running time, with a sealed MTO, was limited. Here the T-64, calmly, certainly on such a canoe and the English Channel would have crossed. And the T-80, in principle, too, only a tanker with kerasin should accompany them.
    Quote: Viking
    No more partisans appeared in Russia.

    They appeared, only they are called differently. Yes, and partisans directly as well, for example in Primorye.
    But seriously, any airmobile operation of the "comeraden end friends" begins with the landing of the RDG, with clear goals. Here's to crush them quickly. Do not allow them to seize the landing sites by landing their berets. This is the BB's challenge in the upcoming global swap.
  36. PSih2097
    PSih2097 29 May 2012 21: 33
    0
    Does our army need a wheeled tank?

    is needed, provided that it holds modern and promising ATGMs and RPGs, its cross-country ability is at the level of tanks (at least BTR 80 - 90) ...
  37. YARY
    YARY 29 May 2012 22: 11
    +3
    My God, how many "specificists" are drawn !!!
    One shouts about the fact that there is no cross-country ability on wheels, uncle you are friends with your head at least sometimes! Iskander flying over the ground? or on a caterpillar track? Or do you wear it on yourself? fool
    "Poplar" also flies? Or on a caterpillar?
    BTRS LIKELY FOR COMMERCERS RELEASE? Are you crazy?
    The "fighting" experts are felt to ruff your copper !!!
    Penetration of armor and other things in general oh-no what are you talking about? The bazaar was bred !!!
    Is the armored vehicle more powerful? Why the hell does the valiant military-industrial complex collect it?

    Each fruit has its own garden! Where it is required to "patch" a breakthrough, or, on the contrary, to support the landing force in a breakthrough with fire, where the speed of the maneuver decides EVERYTHING - such a tank is needed there!
    There still some connoisseur of Th something squeaked about the fact that "the marines do not need it, since it will not be scrapped ashore"? Have you heard about the "Opuk" teachings, or not? If you've heard then you are a provocateur! And if not, then you are empty talkers!
    Before you write any Mr. turn on your brains! And do not be ashamed of your incompetence !!!
  38. TULSKIY CAMOBAP
    TULSKIY CAMOBAP 30 May 2012 03: 53
    -2
    In the short term, such an army tank is completely unnecessary!
  39. The comment was deleted.
  40. rinzhak
    rinzhak 30 May 2012 07: 15
    +2
    turned the military-industrial complex, the devil knows what - they picked up creative and ambitious mediocrity, who have nothing more than a design solution in their head.
    Many people are not even familiar with military affairs and do not understand what a tank is and why it is tracked.
    Honestly, I also doubt any significant benefit from the BTR-90 with a 30 mm cannon on the tower, because The 30 mm cannon is still the artillery of the offensive, and accordingly the combat vehicle itself must be designed for an offensive in battle, and not just for transporting infantry. The caterpillar in this regard is far superior to the wheeled chassis, including a smooth ride, and for cannon armament this is extremely important for stabilizing the guidance and anti-recoil operation of the transmission!
    It is also understandable in connection with this that the Pantsir-S air defense missile systems were installed on the basis of KAMAZ, which does not suit MT-LB, the latter has at least a lower profile, and the protection will be stronger and more reliable, including from WMD.
    In a word, one design restyling and no scientific and practical approach in the development of weapons in recent years ...