They want to send “Black night” to the battle with the North of Russia. Ambition prevails over common sense

Over the past few weeks, London’s unreasonably bold anti-Russian actions have been attracting a great deal of attention, and they are beginning to gradually get out of the plane of the crazy (pre-planned) diplomatic “butt” with Moscow regarding the case of the poisoning in Salisbury and the involvement of Russians of Alexander Petrov in it and Ruslan Bashirov, and take on the features of the nascent military-political confrontation in the conditional East European theater of operations and in the Black Sea region. So, amid the obsession with the idea of ​​blaming the Kremlin for at least some blasphemous crime, expressed in the Washington-sponsored investigation of the resource “The Insider” and the research group “Bellingcat” regarding the case of the Skripals poisoning, the Ministry of Defense and the command of the British Armed Forces, acting under the patronage of the European command The US Armed Forces and NATO headquarters in Brussels have decided to prepare for the immediate militarization of the Black Sea and to develop tactics for direct confrontation with the Russian NE, including tank division.

For example, as part of the large-scale maneuvers of the British Armed Forces "Saif Sareea-3" in Oman (on the territory of a military base near the city of Dukm), which is one of the main footholds of Foggy Albion in Front Asia, the 5,5 of a thousand-strong British military contingent fulfills a local clash with the Russian mixed the 150 troop unit is a man, the role of which is played by the British Army unit. An important part of the exercise is that among the armored vehicles that mimic the main T-72B3 battle tanks, there is a fairly compact and low-profile combat reconnaissance vehicle (BRM) FV107 "Scimitar", having a height of 2,1 m along the periscope and about 1,9 m along the top armored vehicle, and the height of the 4,39 m along the periscope and of the order of the 2,18 m along the upper armor plate. 80 m hull and 24,3 m width, and also characterized by a fairly high speed in 72 km / h and maneuverability provided by the specific power of the order of 3 hp / t. This says only one thing: British tankers and operators of anti-tank complexes train to more complex (than T-90BXNUMX and T-XNUMXМ) goals with smaller frontal and onboard projections, as well as better mobility, which indicates the seriousness of the issue of confrontation with our SV in Eastern Europe. But that's not all.

After a recent visit of impulsive and slightly inadequate Minister of Defense of Great Britain Gavin Williamson to the city-controlled city of Kramatorsk and meetings with Ukrainian militants (including the command of the so-called EP) Whitehall suddenly announced about the planned militarization of the Black Sea, which will begin with the transfer of the Royal Marine Infantry of Great Britain in the army in the 2019 year, as well as under the buzz around the transfer of the Ukrainian ships "Donbass" and the sea-going tug "Korets" to Mariupol (which certainly made the Russian General Staff for the first time sent to the southern air borders of the Crimea RC-135W "Rivet Joint" strategic radio engineering and radio intelligence reconnaissance aircraft for reconnaissance radar positions targeting Russian SCRC, and analyzing tactical communication systems (and their level of security) of the Crimean group troops. Obviously, London received a “green light” from its “masters” in the White House to increase its military presence at our borders (from the level of deployment in the Donbas theater of operations snipers and instructors to a full share of operational and tactical control over the region).

Considering the chronology of what is happening, such a step of the UK can be regarded not only as one of the stages of the previously developed and already known tactics of countering Russia from NATO, but also as a response to the transfer of C-300PM-1 anti-aircraft missile systems to Syrian air defense the latter almost completely leveled the operational and strategic importance of the royal airbase Akrotiri on the island of Cyprus, which in the past few years spent hundreds of millions pounds. One more important detail of what is happening can be considered the panic atmosphere, artificially injected and reigning in the circles of the British establishment in connection with the allegedly "hanging Russian threat". This “panicked egregore” has been an integral attribute of the British elite for several decades, which makes it an excellent slave link of the Pentagon in the implementation of various diplomatic and military-political plans in Eastern Europe.

Against this background, recent information about the successful modernization program of the British tanks of the Challenger Mk 2 family in the Black Night project is not anything out of the ordinary. For the first time, the development of a modernization package for “extending the life cycle of the Challenger 2” (the Challenger Mk 2 Life Extension Program, CR 2 LEP) became known even 5 years ago. Nevertheless, the technological solutions implemented by BAE Systems remained classified until the 2018 year. Today, when the developer announced the first version of the upgrade, “Black Night”, being prepared for field tests, we can see a huge conceptual similarity with the American MBT M1A2 SEPv2, equipped with the Israeli active protection complex “Trophy” (such machines were seen during the exercises Saber Strike-2018 "at Drawsko training ground in Poland). These complexes are undergoing pilot operations as part of the development of the MAPS program, which provides for the updating of newer tank modifications (M1A2 SEPv3 / 4) with the integration system into the tank information and control systems of various types of active protection complexes (including both Trophy and Iron Fist ").

As for the advanced Challengers Mk 2, the Black Night upgrade package primarily includes the installation of the modern Iron Fist active defense system developed by Israel Military State Corporation Israel Military Industries. The main objective of equipping British tanks "Iron Fistami" is aimed at ensuring the invulnerability of the machine and crew for anti-tank guided missiles and other high-precision weapons the enemy as at the time of the 2,5 — 3,5 km approach to the melee of the tank battle with the use of armor-piercing feathered sub-caliber shells, so at the time of the melee. British experts believe that saving «Challenger Mk 2 Black Night» by 125-mm tank controlled rockets 9M119M1 "Invar-M" supersonic ATGM 9M123-2 "Chrysanthemum-S" and ATGM 9M133-1 "Kornet-E ", The crew will be able to unleash the potential of the machine thanks to the high equivalent resistance of the frontal projection of the turret from BOPS (on the order of 850 — 900 mm with firing angles of 0 — 10 degrees from the longitudinal axis of the bore) and installing the new 120-mm tank gun Rh-120 / L55, the penetration of which using the latest DM63A1 armored piercing projectiles reach 750 — 800 mm at a distance of 2000 m and at an angle of 0 degrees to normal.

Meanwhile, if we take a close look at the design features of the placement of the Iron Fist radar sensors on the tower of an experienced Black Night Mk 2, we will gradually begin to guess that during an intensive battle with our motorized rifle regiments and tank brigades of Ayron Fist “Enough only for a short period of collision. The fact is that the radar AFP-sensors S-band RPS-10, which have quite impressive dimensions of paired active headlights (475 x 270 mm), are located directly in the lower side sectors of the frontal armor plates of the Challenger Mk2 Black Night tower, which are the most bombarded areas of the frontal projection of the machine.

Consequently, these sensors will not save even the fact that CHR antennas are made of armor steel, providing radar protection from bullets and fragments: getting into the RPS-10 X-ray detector and 14,5-mm B-32 armor-piercing incendiary will definitely lead to serious damage to large the number of transceiver modules and module failure. The loss of performance of the RPS-10 CHR “Iron Fist” radar modules will also be observed if they fall into the lower sections of the front armor corners and upper frontal parts (FDs) of the 2 Challengers, 30-mm high-explosive fragmentation shells from 2 / NNXXXXMM-math-no-four automatic guns, and no-one-in-one-one / two / one-one / one / one / one / one / one to one / one / one / one / one-one-one-one. About 42-mm tank OFS generally silent.

This collage illustrates all the advantages of the configuration of the location of KAZ Trophy's radar sensors on the M1A2 SEPv2 OBT tower (left) before the more vulnerable Kor IronFist radar modules location on the Challenger Mk 2 tower in the Black Night modification (right)

The configuration of the placement of radar modules KAZ "Trophy" on the staff M1A2 SEPv2 is at times more technically thoughtful solution than the British version. The modules are located on specialized antenna posts, not fixed on the frontal, but on the side of the tower's armor. The antenna posts themselves are shifted to the aft part of the tower, which protects the AFAR canvases from the high-speed fragments of any large-caliber projectiles trapped in the front plates of the tower and WLD. As a result, in order to disable the KAZ Trophy on the Abrams, it will be necessary to hit either directly into the radar modules or into the sides of the turret to deflect the projectiles and spread the fragments in the direction of the radar.

Conclusion: the placement model of the radar facilities of KAZ Iron Fist on the 2 Challengers from BAE Systems has extremely low survivability in combat conditions. You can damage the “Iron Fist” interceptor RPS-10 AFR-radars that can be controlled by heavy shelling from several BMP automatic guns, whose positions are located more than 3 km away from the tank being fired. After “removing” active protection from the “Challenger Mk 2 Black Night,” the fire of the Tours and ATGM can be continued. Success here will depend solely on the experience of the gunner or the ATGM operator, whose task will be to defeat the weakened zone in the area of ​​the Black Night cannon mask. In favor of our army, the terribly low power density and mobility of the Challenger Mk 2, which is the “innate flaw” of this family of British main battle tanks, will play.

Information sources:
https://oleggranovsky.livejournal.com/96382.html
https://rada.com/2-info/73-rps-10-completes-successful-tests
http://forum.militaryparitet.com/viewtopic.php?id=22299
http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/04.battle/karte017.en.html
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2682906.html

Comments

[Bykov.]

Nothing new. As they said a hundred years before us - the British crap.

[Megatron]

I looked at this car, in appearance - some kind of balalaika, a scimitar.

[Megatron]

Children's toy

[asv363]

And where is the gun (for the sake of curiosity)?

[Red_Baron]

Have you even read the article? Well, just for the sake of interest, what would you understand what I mean before writing?
I understand everything, a passionate tearing desire to write something, no matter what. the main thing - and we are their caps!
In the article about Simitar, only one thing is written - that they are used to simulate goals such as our MBT. Do you understand? as an imitation of purpose. And for the gifted, it is specifically indicated what this means. This means that operators of anti-tank systems are prepared for highly maneuverable and high-speed targets with a smaller frontal and side projection area. ALL. Nothing has been written that they are going to put up against them and that they will show us.

[Maksus]

All armies of the world use simulators of foreign tanks on the basis of their equipment, this is normal practice, why did everyone get excited? Well, think for yourself the hefty and slow Challenger in the role of the T-72? Do not tell, the Jews generally weigh Hammer to simulate his speed.

[Igor Levertov]

Do you think that in the event of a conflict, ours will go hand-to-hand? And we have, if you remember, MLRS "Grad", "Uragan", "Tornado-G" ("Typhoon"), as well as MLRS "Smerch" - for total annihilation. And also "Bastion", TOS MLRS "Buratino", which burns everything to hell, and a vacuum bomb, which evaporates everything around. I am already silent about "Caliber" and "Vanguards", S-400, S-500 and everything else. And in general, I do not understand where these small ones are going to fight with us? Maybe you know and tell me?

[Red_Baron]

Yes, of course I will.
For many decades, the British have not considered any of their separate land operations. It was only you who were told that their colonies left and became independent. But in fact, they perform in an excellent way together. Basically, of course, together with the United States, sometimes Canada. But this does not mean at all that they do not operate in some regions. Read about their operations in Malaysia, figaysia and so on. Their favorite tactic is called "The Fight for Minds and Hearts". When instructors, special services and others live with the population for months, if not years. Help them and gain their trust. They organize detachments, conduct training, supply equipment and weapons. Local natives should see that the big white brothers are nearby, they show their strength and support. But to fight, if anything, in the first place will be all the same natives.
You see, our colleagues from other countries are blabbering it all. They say hosted groups in the same Baltic are small and funny. In fact, everything is a bit wrong. Traffic routes, locations, and so on, for much larger groups have been prepared. And the leader in this direction is again not Britain.
About those types of weapons that you wrote, it would be better if I had not seen. This is not what they fight in the first place. This is all at the same time, for their tasks. I won’t even ask how many S-500s are in service, how many S-400s are in the region, and so on.
If you want to somehow calculate strength or at least show power, then this is not what you need to list. And the number and types of aviation based and capable of being used in the region of a likely collision. Our ground units, number of tanks and their types. Navy.
Well, moreover, all possible threats have already been described many times, including on the pages of VO.

[Gogia]

You did not seem to read the entire article. All of Europe puts active systems on KTB - KAZ !!! At the same time, ours do not install KAZ on serial T-90s and upgraded T-72s !!! Not only that, they are not putting the latest KDZ Contact-72 on the T-5 - and not even Relic !!!
And their guns and sights and thermal imagers are very good. I can’t say what is better than ours, but we can’t make the matrix with such a resolution yet, and they already have them without cooling with liquefied gas. And stop throwing all the hats. You are not sitting in the tank, but specific guys who need to survive and win the battle.

[DimanC]

So this is, in fact, a dimensional layout, no more. A sort of hunt for people in English

[Vladimir 5]

So that the British do not twitch over trifles, it's time for them to insert a real chop so that they can feel the difference between their chatter and real action. And perhaps in foreign environments where their Armed Forces are located ... Try on where it is more convenient and hit the "proxy" with forces, so that it turns out not to be a trifle ... This will bring them to a sense of reality faster ...

[Bull Terrier]

Here. What Poland, what the British are amazing. The world has changed, and they all think that they should have a plug in each barrel ...

[Red_Baron]

The world has changed, but not as you imagine.
Britain is one of the strongest and richest countries in Europe. It has a sufficiently combat-ready and technologically advanced army and sufficiently motivated. The cult of a fighter, a warrior in it is strong enough. And it was Britain, as part of the US coalition, that was almost, if not all, of the conflicts. Her special forces plowed through the desert, her troops delivered strikes and so on. What we are beginning to do fully they have been doing since the end of World War II. And, I think, they will do it for a long time. The fact is that the conflicts in the Middle East are not over yet. Several large armies are arming heavily there. But this is nonsense compared to possible actions in Africa. All major players there have long been leading their games. For a new round of production, cost reduction is necessary, and China in this regard is no longer satisfying.
Poland is a unique country, a dream of any Baltic and Ukraine. In some ways, they can be called Britain without principles. On the one hand, they really received a lot of money for development from the EU. On the other hand, they favorably offer themselves to the USA as a mishandled Cossack. Representation of their will and conduct of their policies. She does not have ambitions. So far, her armed forces are not something worthwhile. But for that she fights. To get cheap technology and production. It’s no secret that if any conflict occurs, Poland will be one of the first countries on the way.
That is, as it were, and throw all the hats. Only Britain and Poland will be plugs in every barrel and deservedly - they can afford it. The influence of their allies and partners on the world is enormous.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Red_Baron

Britain is one of the strongest and richest countries in Europe. It has a sufficiently combat-ready and technologically advanced army and sufficiently motivated.

Everything you described was in the 90s. At present, the British army is in approximately the same condition as the Bundeswehr - many years of savings were not in vain.

... the staff number of the British ground forces is set at 82420 people, while the actual strength as of July 1, 2018 was 76880 people.

The problem of lack of personnel in the infantry battalions could not be solved even after the actual disbandment of two of them.

In general, the shortage is 1820 people of ordinary and non-commissioned officers with a staff of 29 infantry battalions of 14670 people of this composition. At the same time, 12 infantry battalions out of 29 have a shortage of more than 100 people per battalion, including five battalions that have a 23% overall shortage, and one battalion (1st Battalion, The Scots Guards, the 1st Scottish Guard battalion) that has a 260 shortage a person must be deemed non-operational by British Army standards.
In total, the British army has 29 regular infantry battalions, excluding two Gurkh battalions - five motorized infantry on BMP, three heavy motorized infantry, five light motorized infantry, nine light infantry, one palace guard, two airborne and four special infantry. Special infantry battalions were started by reorganization in December 2016 from ordinary infantry battalions and are designed to carry out training and advisory tasks, including training foreign forces (in fact, to date, only two special infantry battalions have been completely reorganized to perform these tasks). The staff of these battalions is only 180 people each, and their reorganization allowed the release of several hundred people to re-equip the linear battalions.
... in general, there has been a drop in the number of recruits to serve in the British army, especially intensified since 2014. A special drop in the number of volunteers is noted in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, which led to an increase in the shortage in the guard regiments.

© bmpd

[Red_Baron]

Quote: Alexey RA

Everything you described was in the 90s. At present, the British army is in approximately the same condition as the Bundeswehr - many years of savings were not in vain.

Naturally. But here is a little different. If we take the modernization of technology in recent years, we will see that the quantities will approximately be correct. I don’t think that the British are so stupid that the equipment after the modernization is not functioning. So it turns out at least the equipment that has undergone modernization is operational. And this is essentially a large part of the above.
The rest I wrote about moral qualities. And my comparisons were across Europe. I do not know there more powerful armies than the armies of Britain and Germany. Even in their current form. And let's be honest, if necessary, reserves will be raised and the size of the army will increase by about two. I am not talking about mobilization. But just army reserves.

And, of course, I wrote about this and that Britain has not been involved in any conflicts alone for a long time. But their special services and quick reaction troops took part in almost all military conflicts.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Red_Baron

The rest I wrote about moral qualities. And my comparisons were across Europe. I do not know there more powerful armies than the armies of Britain and Germany.

Yeah ... a hundred thousand each.

Quote: Red_Baron

Even in their current form. And let's be honest, if necessary, reserves will be raised and the size of the army will increase by about two.

So the size and principle of manning the peacetime army just determines the amount of reserves. The XNUMX contract army will not prepare many reservists.
In addition, among the same Germans, an increase in the number is possible only within the framework of already existing units and formations - because they have successfully loved the reserve of equipment for the formation of new ones for a quarter of a century after the collapse of the USSR. The situation with MBT is especially indicative - from the herd of many thousands of Leopards, which grazed in the PPD and in the warehouses of the Bundeswehr in 1991, only 225 tanks of the Leopard 2 family have survived with the prospect of increasing up to 320 units by 2020.

[Red_Baron]

Which is sad, but fair.
Although from the point of view of them as a potential adversary, these are not so bad things.

[Gogia]

France has a budget of the Armed Forces comparable with the Russian, and the army is 4 times smaller.
Germany also has 5 times less
If you look at Germany, England and France, their budget will be 2.2 times larger than the Russian, with an army size of 1,8 times less
They pump up the army with technology, but they do it quietly and without a pump. We write and yell everywhere about this. The Americans recently tested with the F-35 rocket-propelled artillery projectile control. We are still far from this. They already have a series of barrage ammunition ammunition made, we still do not hear about it. And so it is everywhere. But about some kind of Exoskeleton, we will scream for the whole world. It is necessary to do silently in order to beat once, and it would reach all. As in the issue with Khokhlov. They provoked them subtly, drove into their forehead, and brains for a replacement - they achieved everything they wanted. And we have blah blah and steal under the guise.

[NordUral]

You, my friend, tell the Germans this.

[Red_Baron]

Tell what? The fact that we defeated them once? I think they remember this, and if they don’t remember, then we can remind you, although of course I would not want to bring to a big war.
But your logic is strange. If our country in its time showed unrealistic heroism, strength and resilience, this does not mean that no one will ever threaten it again. And even if we cope with one or the other threat, or maybe even with any one. This does not mean at all that we should not have an army that is strong, equipped and trained. This does not mean at all that we should not respect other countries and their armies. And this, well, does not mean at all that we should cover everyone with hats, and not look realistically and soberly at things, take care of people, at least our own. And to advocate "we will show and bomb everyone" forgetting conscience and honor, as well as the matter of maintaining peace and justice.
You are somehow anti-Russian.

[Valery Stetsyuk]

Is the little ragged island still blinking?

[rocket757]

In Crimea, there is already an aglitskoye cemetery .... ordinary Britons themselves, you can’t drive them into battle, no way, but for politicians inadequate and generals, we can, we can, allocate a place like ... to the ancestors by the side!

[Cottager452]

The Britons don’t even have to substitute themselves. They in a famous country now have an inexhaustible source of cannon fodder. And they don’t even have to pay.

[rocket757]

Quote: Summer Resident452

They now have an inexhaustible source of cannon fodder in a famous country, and they don’t even have to pay.

The sad truth .... but inexhaustible reserves do not exist. The jumpers will end one way or another anyway, and the poor cyborgs will scatter through the geyrops .... to clean the latrines in non-metal.

[Red_Baron]

Those about whom you speak jumpers and stuff are our brothers. Which for many years the devils beat their heads at, allowed nationalist sentiments to grow, propagandized Russia as an enemy. In such an environment, everyone will have a roof.
In Russia, villains put their ideas into empty heads and put them out in rallies in the form of meat. The most valuable thing we have is that they try to mutilate our children and use them for their own purposes. But is this normal for you? And the fact that they did the same thing for many years in Ukraine and eventually got what they received is unrealistic? Do you think Belarus has no nationalist sentiment? There is no opposition to the Old Man, there are no nationalists opposing the Russian world? I want to remind you that Sergey Korotkikh (Malyuta), the head of Azov’s intelligence, came from Belarus from its nationalist organizations to Russia, and from here to Ukraine. And in many other CIS countries, people are treated with brains no worse than IG (banned in Russia). Only where the government opposes this does not flower revolution happen. And does not go on such a massive scale. You are talking about the deaths of our brothers, though duped, but as something inanimate.

[rocket757]

It’s just that I had to click on the trigger ... and to that, if not ours, but all the same to the young guy I had no particular complaints, only one thought - And who will press FIRST? -
He took the WEAPONS in his hands, it’s only to fulfill his duty, with us, those who began to use weapons already fall out of the category of just people.
The one who will aim at me, at those and that which is dear to me, that I swore to defend .... this is the enemy, no pity or emotion, SO SUCH A DEBT.
Simple logic, just a soldier .... add veteran and participant ....

[Red_Baron]

Quote: rocket757

Simple logic, just a soldier .... add veteran and participant ....

For which you honor and praise and my respect.
But we are talking about something else. When you are in combat, I would not even have thought to reproach you in relation to the enemy. And when we just talk about people - it's different. Even in the Charter it is written "A soldier is obliged to know and observe the norms of international humanitarian law, the rules for treating the wounded, sick, shipwrecked, medical personnel, clergy, civilians in the area of ​​hostilities, as well as with prisoners of war."
We are talking about the civilian population. About those who took up arms and went to kill there is no question, these people are the enemy.

[rocket757]

Yes, for Peace I and for eternal friendship between everyone. To Ukraine, people living there, I have a good attitude in the cube, I have many relatives there ..... I do not understand what the question is.
Dill, Banderlog and other "fauna" that roamed the vastness of Ukraine, these sales in the category of people are not reasonable ... they equated someone else's life to zero, for me their life becomes no more expensive than the same figure! Let them be children, this is already a zero option, they should not have such a continuation ...
It is necessary to be a soldier, to understand, a person who has been ...... who has lost friends and relatives. can fly off the coils and cease to consciously fulfill a duty, can be consumed with rage and surrender !!! But such a person can still be brought back to life.
Who threatened these children and banderlogs? Who sought to take their lives, their relatives ???
It was a WRONG choice, but quite conscious .... and they went to multiply other people's lives by zero!
No emotions .... let them get something they deserved!

[provergatel]

Are these brothers marching in fecal marches with portraits of Nazi criminals and heroizing accomplices of the Nazis who destroyed hundreds of thousands of civilians?

These are those who burned people alive in Odessa and felled in millionaire cities from art, who raped and killed civilians in the territories of Donbass occupied by the rabble forces of kukarina, marauded and sent home "Novaya Poshta" loot - everything from household appliances to used underwear , are we brothers?

These are the ones who for years rode "Moskalyak on Gilyak" and "Muscovite on knives", are we brothers?

It is not brothers to me and to a huge number of people in Russia, and they will never be! And it's wonderful that every year, as the "non-brothers" more and more fully reveal the depths of their abomination, there are more and more people to whom they are not brothers!

All! It's over. These "brothers" have been dragging on themselves for 350 years. They gave them education, industry, science. We tried to make people out of them. And it worked out with many. How many wonderful scientists, doctors, engineers, military leaders came from the Ukrainian environment. But leaving Ukrainianness, a person becomes Russian, and if he does not want to be a person, he remains Ukrainian.

Ukraine is not even a nationality, not a dialect, not a skin color, not a shape of a nose or ears, Ukrainianism is an ideology based on the only idea of ​​"kukarina is not Russia." The Ukrainian project was created as Anti-Russia. And quite a Russian with surnames in -ov, speaking Russian, not knowing MOV, declared themselves Ukrainians and went to kill other Russians in the Donbass. And very much on the contrary, the same Zakharchenko, his blessed memory, considered himself a Russian man and devoted his life to having the right to call himself that. And he is not alone, there are hundreds of thousands and millions of them in the Donbass, those who chose civilization and be Russian, as opposed to Selyukovism and obscurantism, into which the Ukrainians are drawn.

And there is no need to talk about "propaganda and fooling", for 20 years everything suited them! The fact that Russian schools were closed en masse, then that Russian culture was systematically and purposefully squeezed out of the cultural space by cucarines. They themselves took their "dytynoks" to Ukrainian schools, not realizing that this English can be useful all over the world, Russian in Russia, most of the countries of the former USSR and Eastern Europe, and the Selyukov dialect is a dead end and a road to nowhere. In Mudan, they shouted that no one forbids them to speak Russian, no one infringes on their ethnicity and, in general, "the Muscovites' oaths stay in your Taiga Union, and we pidemo to Europa." 5 years have passed and now they were gagged, they were forbidden to speak their native language, to be called Russians, and in general they are completely spreading rot. And now they suddenly remembered that they, it turns out, are Russians. And they raised a screech. That Russia should come, introduce, soak all that g..no, which they themselves brought to power, restore everything and repair, and dump it into the fog, so as not to interfere with the "brothers" of Panuvata.

But figs! To build a concrete wall, 5 meters high, on the border with this parody of the state, introduce the most severe visa regime so that only those who really want to be Russian can get from there, and not those who are looking for somewhere better ... warm to attach. And let them rot there in their own juice.

Only the experience of living on the Ruin, for many years, can knock out all the de..mo that they have bred in their undercases. So that for one mention of Ukraine and Ukrainians without talking, they gave in the face. In another way, this problem cannot be solved.

[Igor Levertov]

Totally agree with you. I'll add more. that even some of this seemingly people as part of the Soviet people in Soviet times led the USSR (Khrushchev, for example,). But after 1991, this pseudo-state artificially created in the last century under the Soviet project lost the right to statehood within its current borders and is an artificial territorial entity, which should break up into independent state formations oriented partly to Russia, partly to Poland, partly to Hungary, part to Romania. It will be fair, and then they abandoned the Soviet heredity of the Ukrainian SSR, but they want to grab a free territory, sly ...!

[Red_Baron]

And I will also reveal a secret to you.
For no reason, artificial territorial entities should not disintegrate. In the world they exist and somehow nothing. Were in the past, will be possible in the future. Why did you suddenly predetermine them so?
Moreover, even within the state, there may be units oriented to Russia, Poland, and so on.
and now on the topic that you, unfortunately, do not understand.
The territory of modern Ukraine was part of the USSR. It was collected, won, received, bought, and so on by members of this union. They belong to them. For the most part of Russia, as the heir to the USSR. And what, excuse me, to x *** am Hungary, Poland, Romania did you decide to give up the lands that our ancestors defended with their sweat and blood. Who were dying for these lands, which protected them and so on. As your language just turns to give them back to the same invaders who killed these of our ancestors.

[Igor Levertov]

Let me ask, how will you make ethnic Hungarians in some regions of Ukraine, or Poles in the Lviv region fall in love with Russia? Russify forcibly? And then how does your plan differ from the plan of the current fascist regime of the Outskirts, which set out to Ukrainize the Russian-speaking population by banning the Russian language on its territory and threatening to exterminate the inhabitants of the DPR and LPR? Do you understand where your aspirations can lead? I want to remind you, if you are not in the know, in Finland, by European standards, a democratic country, about 9% of Swedes, and 2 (!) State languages. On the outskirts, more than half of the population, if not even 80%, are Russian-speaking, and 25 percent, I think no less, are Russian. Do you think it is normal for Russians, as well as, for example, Hungarians and Poles, and not only them, Crimea are also forbidden to speak and study in their native language, to live in such a country? Speaking about the territory of modern Ukraine as part of the USSR, in my opinion, you completely do not understand the essence of this problem and make a colossal methodological error. The territory of modern Ukraine, I emphasize, is modern fascist (Outskirts, as I call it), are not a state (this is the essence), but the territory of the former Russian Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire and Poland. This is precisely a set of territories, a pseudo-state made up of heterogeneous parts, and not a full-fledged political entity called Ukraine, held together by a single ideology. This set of territories was a state, when it was called the Ukrainian SSR, was held together by a common ideology, and entered on an equal footing with Russia in a common union state called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Since the state was supposed to be a union state (who then thought that it would be destroyed by a labeled and an alkonaut), they transferred part of the territory of the Russian Empire to the administration of the Ukrainian SSR, and also added (cut) something later from Poland and the former Austria-Hungary. They received the most powerful state of the Ukrainian SSR as part of an even more powerful state of the USSR, which terrified the apologists of capitalism. As soon as the Soviet project ordered a long life, that connecting, unifying thread, ideology of the Soviet project, between the Soviet republics and within the Ukrainian SSR, based on the power of the working people and national (state) ownership of the main means of production and natural resources that united these territories, disappeared then Ukraine into a single whole: political and economic education - the Ukrainian SSR, by the way, with a powerful economic potential that exceeds many European economies. Soviet ideology kept in check the aspirations of some Ukrainian nationalists for excessive independence, who dreamed of their exclusiveness on the principle of "Ukraine is not Russia." Here their criminal aspirations later, in the 90s, and led to the rupture of the connecting thread with Russia, edge allowed this single economic mechanism to function with a rigid centralized management system (USSR). And that's all, since 1992, Ukraine (Outskirts), abandoning the continuity of the Ukrainian SSR, from Soviet ideology, began to turn into a territorial entity consisting of separate heterogeneous parts. The return of Crimea peacefully to Russia saved him from a bloody massacre, which could have happened like the one that happened in the Donbass due to the indecision of our leadership in 2014 regarding the Donbass. Time will tell whether this pseudo-state, torn apart from within by Nazi Nazis, can resist and what will remain in its place. Personally, I doubt that this territory, governed by the method of hatred and genocide against part of its citizens, will remain as a state within its current borders. This is my reasoned opinion.

[Red_Baron]

Quote: Igor Levertov

So, my friend, my advice to you: do not be so categorical and do not get excited.

I accept the Council, I agree.

Quote: Igor Levertov

This is my reasoned opinion.

And thanks for that.
But again, I can’t agree with everything.

Quote: Igor Levertov

Let me ask, how will you make ethnic Hungarians in some regions of Ukraine, or Poles in the Lviv region fall in love with Russia?

But for 70 years now they have been living in a state separate from their ethnic homeland. And somehow they get along with Ukraine. Not only is Ukraine that Russia is a multinational country. And for many hundreds of years in the same Russia in its various manifestations, a large number of different nationalities live, each of which has its place of residence, although not limited to it, have the status of a people with the preservation of language and culture. For which, incidentally, money is being spent from the budget, especially so that small nations and their culture would not disappear. We are one of the few states that takes this seriously.
For the sake of interest, type in the search "state languages ​​of Russia" and look, for example, in the wiki. Nobody forces people to love or not love. They ARE a part of Russia, this is their country, and this is emphasized and supported in every possible way.

Quote: Igor Levertov

Russify forcibly?

Well, the right word.

Quote: Igor Levertov

And then how does your plan differ from the plan of the current fascist regime of the Outskirts, which set out to Ukrainize the Russian-speaking population by banning the Russian language on its territory and threatening to exterminate the inhabitants of the DPR and LPR?

And here is an interesting point. I generally do not like insults or the distortion of names, surnames, etc. Well, as you prefer. It seems to me that the plan of the current regime of Ukraine is not quite the same. Again, this is my personal opinion, and I could be wrong. I do not see any consistent steps on the development and prosperity of the country in the actions of the Ukrainian authorities. I see temporary workers who take this opportunity to earn money - money, power, reputation, until the train leaves. And for this they do not need to transform the country. You just need to pull everything that is possible out of it. The same DNI and LC no one wants to Ukrainize. You are absolutely right if you would talk about leadership before Poroshenko. Then really it was the state’s activity in this direction. I wrote about this by the way. But now everything is much rougher, we need money, quickly and without problems. My plan has nothing to do with it, and there is no one at all. I do not want any nasty things to Ukraine. Let the territories be with her or another state, based on her place and which will be the heir, or with us. I understand that the territories were collected from different states, but it wasn’t so simple that they moved to our country. Something was won back, something was obtained after the wars and so on.

Quote: Igor Levertov

Do you think it is normal for Russians, as well as, for example, Hungarians and Poles, and not only them, Crimea are also forbidden to speak and study in their native language, to live in such a country?

No, I wrote about this above, that this is not done in our country, and this fundamentally distinguishes our country from Ukraine.

Quote: Igor Levertov

This is precisely a set of territories, a pseudo-state made up of heterogeneous parts, and not a full-fledged political entity called Ukraine, held together by a single ideology.

And here is a snag. It was not in vain that I wrote that Ukraine, if not Russia, has been built since the end of World War II, and maybe earlier. After all, Ukrainian statehood has been built all this time. The Ukrainian language was invented. The same Holodomor, I wrote earlier, this was a question of a whole republic. With the terrible connivance of her leadership.
One more thing. All these lands are collected, they have one feature, they were Russian lands in one form or another. Some of them once belonged to other countries, but I already wrote about this above, and you wrote about it in detail. But the bottom line is that it is the Russians who received the Russian people. Not Ukrainian or some other but all Russian. And Russian in the broad sense. And here a terrible dilemma arises. The USSR was formed by state acts. When the USSR collapsed and Ukraine was formed, the borders were determined and agreed on just as officially. So the territory of Ukraine is an official state recognized by Russia. The dispute arose because of the Crimea and for many reasons, which once again showed that all outstanding issues could be fired sooner or later. But if the recognized and official state of Ukraine is falling apart, then its territories belonging to the USSR, allocated in the Ukrainian SSR at the time, do not go to any incomprehensible possessions. They remain the very USSR to which they belonged, and now Russia, as its heir. Not only that, those states to which the units belonged no longer exist, there are also only their heirs, and partial ones.

Quote: Igor Levertov

Soviet ideology kept in check the aspirations of some Ukrainian nationalists for excessive independence, who dreamed of their exclusivity on the principle "Ukraine is not Russia"

Yes, but this is the question, it has not eradicated, it has not outlived. That is, even Soviet ideology did not become the ideology of some areas, some nationalist groups. And these were not some peasants in the forgotten farmhouses of God. It was the elite of those places.

Quote: Igor Levertov

Here their criminal aspirations later, in the 90s, and led to the rupture of the connecting thread with Russia, edge allowed this single economic mechanism to function with a rigid centralized management system (USSR).

Yes, in the 90s, without Soviet ideology, in a political vacuum, they quickly raised their ranks. But the problem is that this only gave a breakthrough, and it was before that, moreover, it was at the highest level.

Quote: Igor Levertov

And that's all, since 1992, Ukraine (Outskirts), abandoning the continuity of the Ukrainian SSR, from Soviet ideology, began to turn into a territorial entity consisting of separate heterogeneous parts.

And this, in my opinion, is partially true. The place was empty. Ideologically, Soviet was replaced by Ukrainian ideology. Which also helped to create staples. It seems to me that this did not work only in the southeastern part, but the creation of conditions when not Ukrainians could not enjoy equal rights, knocking out the Russian language did its job. And what would be through the generation is not known. It’s just that events began to develop more rapidly.

Quote: Igor Levertov

Personally, I doubt that this territory, governed by the method of hatred and genocide against part of its citizens, will remain as a state within its current borders.

As an example, the Baltic states.

[Igor Levertov]

I completely disagree with your statement that "Ideologically the Soviet one was replaced by the Ukrainian ideology. That also helped to create braces. It seems to me that this did not work only in the southeastern part ...". What kind of ideology do you call scrapie? Do you seriously think that Nazi-Nazi fascist ideology is coming out? A multinational state, which builds its policy on hatred of Russians and in general for everything Russian and disregard for national minorities: Poles, Hungarians, Jews, Armenians and other nationalities, in principle, cannot exist with such a misanthropic ideology. Such an ideology is not braces, but a time bomb, which will explode sooner or later, and the country will inevitably fall apart into separate territories. As you imagine, for example, Russian, Soviet people, fathers and grandfathers to-rykh fought against fascism in the Second World War, to live in a country (and not only in the southeast), in which degenerates are jumping on the Maidan and yelling "Moskolyak to gilyak "? Thank God, Crimea peacefully fell away from this so-called state, but Donbass, due to the indecision of the Russian leadership, is forced to defend its legal right to live and work in its state by armed means. Do you think the residents of Donbass are eager to live in the fascist outskirts, which kills its inhabitants, by the way, also Ukrainian citizens? Have you not noticed that the so-called Ukraine no longer exists within the borders of the state of the Ukrainian SSR during the Soviet period? Has it somehow passed you by? I consider it necessary for Russia to recognize the independence of the LDNR in the near future and openly provide these republics, including military assistance, to end this orgy.

[Red_Baron]

Quote: Igor Levertov

What ideology do you call scrapes? Do you seriously believe that the Nazi-Ukrainian Nazi ideology is a staple?

Of course not. The ideology of an external enemy. In Ukraine, since its founding after the collapse of the USSR, there has always been an idea justifying everything that happened negative - the Russian woman is crap. But the bonds against a common external enemy are very strong. They mobilize the people, rally around the supreme figure. And look how cleverly they use it. When it is necessary, they lift it up. When you need passions calm, that would not be boring.

Quote: Igor Levertov

A multinational state, which builds its policy on hatred of Russia by Russians and generally Russian and neglect of national minorities: Poles, Hungarians, Jews, Armenians and other nationalities - in principle, cannot exist with such a misanthropic ideology.

It is precisely on these principles that it can. You just mix two ideas. Nobody in Ukraine at the highest echelons of power is promoting any fascist ideas. Some individual cries do not count. The fact that they connive and use these fascist forces is yes. So ideology is only anti-Russian. Your nationality is not important, your attitude to the external enemy, invader, occupier is important. Moreover, hatred to cultivate other nations is not very simple, they mainly live in fairly clear habitats.

Quote: Igor Levertov

Such an ideology is not bonds, but a time bomb, edge sooner or later to explode, and the country will inevitably fall apart into separate territories.

Oh leave you that. You all draw conclusions from the fact that in Ukraine everything goes according to the knowledge of its supreme power, but this is not so. No one will fall apart, any idea will be adjusted as it will be necessary in this situation. The best minds work on the functioning of Ukraine. That's when they abandon, then it will already be possible to talk about where it goes and what will happen.

Quote: Igor Levertov

As you imagine, for example, Russian, Soviet people, fathers and grandfathers to-rykh fought against fascism in the Second World War, to live in a country (and not only in the southeast), in which degenerates are jumping on the Maidan and yelling "Moskolyak to gilyak "?

How to live? That's how they live. Someone quietly hates, but there are very few of them, people are intimidated. And someone has adopted new rules. I have a cousin's sister who volunteered for some kind of troops, I really xs what. And she wrote to me during the Crimean events "is this war?" although nothing has happened yet, but they were brainwashed beforehand. And my friend, as a sign of solidarity, put the Russian flag on the background of the mobile. Even her work colleagues threatened her in this way.

Quote: Igor Levertov

Have you not noticed that the so-called Ukraine no longer exists within the borders of the state of the USSR of the Soviet period? Did it somehow pass you by?

Yes, only you rely on some kind of ruin, some ideologies that people do not like, and the fact that it does not exist within the borders is not because of this. This is the result of a direct ideological struggle. And at first, the locals were not so willing to join the troops.

Quote: Igor Levertov

I consider it necessary for Russia in the near future to recognize the independence of the LPR and to openly provide these republics, including military assistance, to end this bacchanalia.

Tomorrow, we recognize.
No bacchanalia will end neither today nor tomorrow. This is not absolutely necessary to the west. And for this ALWAYS there will be ways for the conflict to live and when necessary it flared up. By the way, you contribute to this with your Wishlist.

[Igor Levertov]

You claim that "... even Soviet ideology did not become the ideology of some areas, some nationalist groups. And these were not some peasants in godforsaken farms. They were the elite of those places." So, I dare say that it is precisely this elite, supported by the loot of Western patrons, that will lead to the disintegration of the Outskirts into separate territories, the population of which will decide for itself how to live. But the territories of those regions where this elite is fierce, and will become the basis of the "new", fascist Ukraine, which will be localized in the west of the outskirts. And another big question is whether Europe will put up with such a fascist center for a long time.

[Red_Baron]

Quote: Igor Levertov

So, I dare to say that it is precisely this elite that is contained in the loot of Western patrons that will lead to the collapse of the Outskirts into separate territories

Not so simple. We are not alone so smart that we think about it. Now there are no serious disagreements and skirmishes between different stakeholders that everything is divided and each got its own piece. There were minor episodes when the PS (banned in Russia) came to shoot people on the western border and calmly left. Until the federal government changes and until the real work of the government for the good of the country, it will all be in a stable equilibrium.
And to the West, I don’t know what capital letters to write :) It is VERY FAVORABLE that everything in this form would be preserved for as long as possible. After all, at any moment you can aggravate something with Russia or come up with a reason for something. And at another moment you can pause and show the carrot. See how through Kosovo they constantly influence the same Serbia. And not only. Many people fear their Kosovo. But the fact that Yugoslavia is no more.

Quote: Igor Levertov

But the territories of those regions where this elite is fierce, and will become the basis of the "new", fascist Ukraine, which will be localized in the west of the outskirts.

It seems to me that Ukraine is not independent in its decisions. And much will not be decided on its own. And it is precisely the region that is not very profitable to give to the West under the fascists. Let this force be on a leash, a little hungry all the time.

Quote: Igor Levertov

And the big question is whether Europe will put up with such a fascist center for a long time.

Yes. But while the same Poles hug and talk about friendship, forgetting about the Polish pogroms. When it’s beneficial, they say that we will not forget, we will not forgive, and when it’s not profitable, they hug.
I’m interested in this, if the Americans surrender Ukraine, can Europeans do something on their own?

[Igor Levertov]

Your statement: "But for 70 years they have been living in a state separate from their ethnic homeland. And somehow they get along with Ukraine" - does not stand up to criticism. You seem to be unaware of what is happening in the Outskirts. They lived for several decades in the state, an integral part of the Soviet project, based on the INTERNATIONAL (!) Solidarity of workers, and not on wild, fascist nationalism! Ukro-Nazi-fascists strive, with perseverance worthy of a better application, to build a unitary state in a multinational country on their territories, i.e. in territories that do not belong to them. Both national minorities and Russian people in the Outskirts now, after the Nazis came to power, will no longer be able to somehow get along with these rabid, inveterate bandits who proclaimed their heroes adherents of fascist ideology - Bandera and Shukhevych, who during the Second World War carried out operations to exterminate Russians, Jews, Communists. In recent years, virtually persecution of people began, to-rye do not agree with the policy of fascization of the outskirts. Some, as you hopefully know, were killed by the Nazis. Others, as you hopefully remember, were burnt in Odessa. How do you imagine living in the same state of Russian people and people of other nationalities, brought up on the ideas of internationalism, to-ryh're coming out-Nazis do not consider citizens of their Ukraine? And in general they do not consider people to be? Will the Russians, Soviet people, in principle, be able to get along with the bastards galloping on the Maidan and shouting "Moskolyaka to Gilyaka"? Will people, as I said at 15:10, whose fathers and grandfathers shed their blood, defending the freedom and independence of the Soviet Union during the Second World War, will be able to live in the same state with people who are renaming the streets in the names of fascist underdogs: Bandera and Shushkevich and demolishing monuments of the Soviet era? Is it possible for normal people to get along with the bastards who organize torchlight processions like torchlight processions in Nazi Germany? And is it possible, finally, for Russian people and people of other nationalities, not Ukrainians, to live in a country in which it is now forbidden to teach their children in their native language? In my opinion, the answer is obvious. But, as I understand it, for some reason it is not obvious to you. On this occasion, please accept my regrets.

[Red_Baron]

Quote: Igor Levertov

They lived for several decades in the state, an integral part of the Soviet project, based on the INTERNATIONAL (!) Solidarity of the workers, and not on wild, fascist nationalism!

Sorry, but I generally cease to understand what you are writing about, you forgot several times what I wrote earlier, now it turns out you forgot what you wrote yourself.
You wrote that they supposedly how these parts of them would go to Russia to make them love Russia. I objected to you that they somehow lived about the USSR, and after that they have been living in Ukraine for 25 years like that. In Russia, national minorities are treated much better; they preserve languages ​​and cultural heritage. And the national language can even become regional, which is done in a bunch of regions.
And now you generally write about the fact that you lived in a state of an integral part of the USSR, and not on wild fascist nationalism. And where does all my words? And here in general our argument. I DO NOT OFFER LIVING THEM IN Fascist Nationalism. I OFFER IN RUSSIA, where there is no fascist nationalism.
Do you understand? At first you wrote against my words that these parts are in Russia. Now write against the fact that these parts are in Ukraine. Tomorrow you will begin to write against the fact that these parts were in Jamaica. But what have I got to do with it?
------------------------------------------------
Please clarify for yourself first what relation to my words about the fact that these parts should be in Russia, if not in Ukraine, have all these stories of yours. Moreover, fascist nationalism in Ukraine for 4 years somewhere, only before that for more than 20 years it was not.

[Red_Baron]

Quote: Igor Levertov

Some, as you hopefully know, are killed by the Nazis.

This phrase is just perfect in everything. Of course I know, I personally conducted the investigation. Or did you spend and also know for sure. In general, I do not really believe in all these "know for sure".

Quote: Igor Levertov

Will the Russians, Soviet people, in principle, be able to get along with the bastards galloping on the Maidan and shouting "Moskolyaka to Gilyaka"?

All clear. Everything, let's finish. I am ready to communicate only with sober people. When fanaticism begins, which is not quite healthy, when the opponent simply does not read and does not understand what I am writing, I don’t need it at all. You already once again write nonsense to which I answered earlier. Where he brought you both facts and theory, but you continue anyway. And this is no longer a reasoned opinion, this is fanaticism, you have drawn a reality for yourself and do not want to move away from some kind of image.
------------
all these Russian, Soviet people voted for Poroshenko, that is, they themselves chose their power. Those who jumped on the Maidan and supported it showed activity, but the other side did not show AND THERE CHOOSE THEIR FUTURE. In Odessa, these Russian, Soviet people did not rise and drive away all the wretchedness, they allowed their comrades to be burned. And this is not because there was no initiative, it was there, there were people against the coup and they also assembled units against dishonesty, only there were few of them.
You do not want to understand and do not understand one. And I have already repeated this to you many times - the population was processed in Ukraine even in Soviet times, I came there and I remember that. Not so widespread not so massively, BUT ALREADY IT WAS. And as soon as it was strengthened, everything became clear. So yes, people can get along easily. And get along already. Yes, a certain percentage cannot and he leaves for a reason in Ukraine there are much fewer people left.
All these nonsense of yours about fascist and other things - so there is no more stupid than you. These people are not constantly pressured, at times there are conflicts both random and indicative, but at times. And so for people everything looks a little different than you fantasize.

[Red_Baron]

Sorry, but I can not agree with many. You understand what’s the matter - in many ways you’re right. And it happens that I find a similar mood. But the fact is that mood is mood, and objectivity is objectivity.

Quote: oprovergatel

Are these brothers marching in fecal marches with portraits of Nazi criminals and heroizing accomplices of the Nazis who destroyed hundreds of thousands of civilians?

No, not these. But those whom you named are not so many and are in many countries, even here. Until they began to harshly inflict, we had a bunch of nationalist organizations and quite a lot. Not only wasn’t in Ukraine, but people from neighboring republics came to us and gathered here in packs.

Quote: oprovergatel

These are those who burned people alive in Odessa and felled in millionaire cities from art, who raped and killed civilians in the territories of Donbass occupied by the rabble forces of kukarina, marauded and sent home "Novaya Poshta" loot - everything from household appliances to used underwear , are we brothers?

And so did the entire population of Ukraine? By the way, calling them something you are changing? How would you avenge them? sorry, they don’t know this.

Quote: oprovergatel

All! It's over. These "brothers" have been dragging on themselves for 350 years.

That is, Ukraine is already 350 years old? Wow. I will reveal the secret. Almost all cities in Ukraine are founded by Russians. The most ancient cities were once inhabited by the same Slavs as we, Jews and others. No Ukraine was close. The rest of the cities are lands that went hand in hand, then in Russia, then in the Poles with the Lithuanians. How did you manage to give Russian cities to some unknown Ukrainians for 350 years? Yes, open in the near future at least some historical documents, at least art sources, of the same Gogol. And he wrote in the 19th century and did not know any Ukrainians either. Do you know. Maybe you are confusing our planet, system or something else?

Quote: oprovergatel

But leaving Ukraine, a person becomes Russian, and if he does not want to be a person, he remains a Ukrainian.

This is a completely unscientific theory, I would even say fabulous. I have already said that I share many of your conclusions. But under them you bring not facts, but tales of stupid, children's tales. Tell us about Belarus, then, that they are not brothers to us either. And that quite a large part of the population of non-Russians lives in the Baltic states. And so on and so forth. You are not much different from other nationalists. You have exactly the same thing at the forefront of delusional theory, explaining why one nation is better than others. Look at what Ukraine has done and not only the Nazis have done and think about where you are leading these theories.

Quote: oprovergatel

And no need to talk about "propaganda and fooling", for 20 years everything suited them!

But this is an outright lie and stupidity. You understand what’s the matter, you write with emotions, not thinking, not knowing. I don’t even know how to say it, so that you don’t offend you, you don’t know anything about Ukraine, but write fairy tales easily.
I will reveal another secret. The Ukraine project was created IMMEDIATELY after the Second World War. To divide one people into Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. Those about whom you are talking about, those who are now raising Bandera's ideas are Galicia and others like them. The lands that have been under Lithuanians and Poles for most of the years are already not entirely Russian from the very beginning. Moreover, they always maintained their ties. And the devils since when hatched their ideology. The same Bandera, Shukhevych and others simply voiced it, it was before and after them. Why the hell did you attribute the Russians to them? I do not deny that Russians are in their ranks, but if you get Israeli citizenship, then you are striving to get their citizenship?
Why did you take and rip out a piece of the past 20 years. And 50 years before that, as if nothing had happened?
Remember the Holodomor. Remember what fairy tales are composed now and what happened then. When they hid the grain, buried it in the ground, when it was struck, forgot what the disease is called and people swelled from eating such grain, and they said that they were swollen from hunger. When the grain was underground milled, so as not to be handed over and that this covered the leadership of the then USSR. When there was a tragedy, a series of years with crop failure and death from starvation, their leadership kept secret until the last so that fraud with grain would not come up. How they tried to help the whole country. But in the end, they are now talking about the Holodomor and bad Stalin, and not the then rule of the republic. Unfortunately, you have little knowledge of history; therefore, you underestimate the power and influence of the elites. The Ukrainian leadership always wanted to be on special conditions. It seems to be in a union for common goods, but it seems to be separate when it comes to governance. And not only Ukraine, many other leaders of the republics wanted to be kings themselves. Let's leave the old years. I have been to Ukraine in the 80s. And then sometimes I heard phrases that Ukraine was feeding Moscow, that Muscovites had eaten all the fat. About how we spread rot republic. And not from someone, but from relatives as well. The propaganda against Moscow was that after the war that in the years before the collapse of the union. And all this time there was a struggle and propaganda. But if you recall various referenda, polls and so on. Most of the population wanted to be in the union in Ukraine too. Only a small part of people who share their ideology advocated their national state. And look at the last 25 years. When the country was already free, what was the level of propaganda. How sharply changed opinions. If you constantly pour some kind of ide into your ears, then any person with the exception of the most educated motivated layers will eventually respond to it. Why go far, look at yourself. you apparently, by the fact that you write 5 years ago, you somehow had little interest in Ukraine and you knew just as little about it. But TOTAL for 5 years you already write what nationalist pamphlets.
And how do you have enough conscience for someone to poke what they did what they did not? That's when you will be in similar circumstances, then we'll talk. And now it's disgusting. Even now, when for so many years there has been not only a nation, but also a state, Ukraine is still people who consider themselves Russian about 20% if I am not mistaken. And this despite the fact that many years ago, many changed their nationality in the passport and questionnaire. Because in many regions it was extremely difficult for a Russian to get a job. In many regions, work is generally bad, and Russian was even more so. And people in order to be able to live, were forced to change documents. That is, the real number of those who consider themselves Russian is and is associated with the Russian world with half the population. But that is not all. Those who until 2014, when the frenzy of propaganda went through the roof, when people were intensely made of Russian enemies, held back the Russians and considered their brothers to be much more than half the population. And now, for the sake of your nationalism, all of them, those who for years, decades supported Russia and have recorded good relations with it as enemies and unworthy people? Well, what can I say, shame on you. This is the same if you are a nationalist and spread fascist ideas, it must be said that all Russians are like that? But I do not agree. I do not want to have a relationship with Nazism and fascism, although Russian. You very easily for some part of the representatives suddenly recorded everyone as murderers and rapists. How many of the population of Ukraine are murderers and rapists - tell me yourself? Remember Vlasov. You, it turns out by your logic, think that all Russians were the same. Once you attribute to the group of Ukrainian nationalists the rest of the population.
You very easily operate with complex and terrible concepts, which does not honor you and does not show your words in your mind at all. It is a property of children to see simple steps and simple solutions in everything. And also complete irresponsibility.
I can give you a lot of examples when something like this happened with us. Groups and not so small and insignificant fools committed terrible deeds. Remember the crowd of scum led by Stankevich who destroyed the monument to Dzerzhinsky. Remember the scum, who not so long ago turned children against their parents and stuffed their heads with various rubbish dragged them to the demonstration like meat. See no similarities? Do not remember how the Maidan began - "while you are sitting here, our children are beaten there on the Maidan." As long as such blindness and Nazism will obscure your eyes, Russia will never be able to become great. And it's not just you personally. I mean all the grandmothers at the entrance whose polymers are fucked up.

[Igor Levertov]

And now I will tell you one little secret: you know why the growth rates in China and India are 8-10%, while in our country, in fact, stagnation, because 1,5% of the so-called growth in comparison with the global 3,5, 1991% is, as you understand, not growth? Because they have the priority of public interests over private ones and the state strictly monitors that the interests of society are not infringed upon by private business. In India, even in the constitution, the primacy of public interests over private interests is fixed. The state in these countries is engaged in the coordination of the interests of all social groups. Is it so with us? And we have: "There is no money, but you are holding on. Goodbye, be healthy" or: "Do not make business nightmare!" This is normal? Is it okay for businesses to poison us with unhealthy food? A bourgeois liberal counter-revolution took place in Russia in 1993-9. And in our constitution, the primacy of private property over state property (Article 3). And how does the Central Bank function? Do you know? For some reason he does not obey the government, being, in fact, a branch of the US Federal Reserve. This is normal? And Sberbank and other banks in Crimea do not function - is this normal? And in China, for example, banks are state-owned and operate in the interests of the national economy. And our banks invest 4-30% in our economy, the rest is consumer loans for the banks to make a profit. This is normal? There is a lot more to talk about, but I'll tell you something else: you bought into the American term "HOLODOMOR". There was no such term in the Soviet period; it is a propaganda term of Western political scientists that appeared 30 years ago before the collapse of the USSR to include the process of separating Ukraine from Russia. I want to remind you that HUNGER was in the XNUMXs in many regions of Russia, and not only in Ukraine. Do you know who provoked that famine? Do not know? And I will tell you one more secret: the Americans refused to sell us the necessary equipment for gold, but they agreed only for wheat. And then our wheat went for export, and our people began to die of hunger. These are the overseas bastards friends! So you are more careful with terms, please!

[Red_Baron]

Quote: Igor Levertov

And now I’ll tell you one little secret: you know why the growth rate in China and India is 8 - 10%

Yes, but when did they become so? Much can be said separately about China in general; no one has ever received such conditions for the development of the country.

Quote: Igor Levertov

global 3,5%

which includes the same China and India and the USA and others. That is, nothing has changed - how the economic leaders remained on horseback and how they remained, the less developed countries and the countries under sanctions remained below. Hasn't it been like this before?

Quote: Igor Levertov

Because they have a priority of public interests over private ones and the state strictly monitors that the interests of society are not infringed on by private business.

I completely disagree. Categorically. As much as China did against its society, probably no one did. These are poisoned, salted, raped lands, this is ecology and harmful production and social conditions.
If you said - I would agree to the state interests, but not society.

Quote: Igor Levertov

In India, even in the constitution, the primacy of public interests over private is fixed.

So what, and what laws and acts based on this, how do they apply and how much do they influence? Declaring this is one thing, but keeping watch is another.
By the way, why don’t you talk about the main locomotive of the economy of many years, is the USA? Because it contradicts your theory, and therefore it is not necessary to talk about it? :)

Quote: Igor Levertov

And we have: "There is no money, but you are holding on. Goodbye, be healthy."

Let's not be like this. We will respect each other. You know that this phrase was taken out of context, as well as another, that the meaning is absolutely correct for her, it’s just an artificially inflated meme, against Medvedev. It’s not necessary to impersonate. he has a lot of stocks and without artificially invented.

Quote: Igor Levertov

But Sberbank and other banks in the Crimea do not work - is this normal?

For me this is not normal, as well as what you wrote above about the Central Bank. But not so simple. Let's be honest with ourselves. Without slogans and quoting propaganda.
If we want a logical, honest, correct game, although these terms are rather arbitrary, but I think you understand what I want to say with them. Then we have to play by the rules. In a crisis, we can change the rules in the banking sector. And thereby kill the economy, not only the state, but also ordinary people. But it was the crisis that revealed the shortcomings of this system. Moreover, we do not forget about the consequences of such steps in peacetime. And yet - if we establish new rules for banks, then we must give guarantees, that is, it will already be a matter not only of banking but also of the state and we will share the risks together. That is, in which case huge amounts will leave the budget. Otherwise, it will be a banal getting into the pocket of a business, in this case a banking one, which will reduce it by several times and kill all foreign partners. And our enterprises will find themselves without banking services. And so on and so forth.
But your idea, of course, is true that big business should first of all defend state interests, as in China itself. Only I am not an economist and I can not imagine how to do it now and in general is relatively painless.

Quote: Igor Levertov

And our banks invest 3–4% in our economy, the rest is consumer loans for banks to make a profit. This is normal?

Yes, but what are they being offered? It’s not very tangible yet, but to deprive oneself of profit is generally stupid. Now only one new industry that may be beneficial to banks is the defense industry. Need more national projects or where do you propose investing in banks?

Quote: Igor Levertov

You bought the American term "HOLODOMOR". There was no such term in the Soviet period; it is a propaganda term of Western political scientists that appeared 30 years ago before the collapse of the USSR to include the process of separating Ukraine from Russia.

Naturally. I just used it to explain in a word the events that I spoke about.

Quote: Igor Levertov

I want to remind you that HUNGER was in the 30s in many regions of Russia, and not just in Ukraine. Do you know who provoked that hunger? Do not know?

I know. And I wrote about it right there. For several years in a row there was a crop failure. And also in the same Ukraine, grain supplies were disrupted. People preferred to rot it in the ground but not give it away. A lot of such facts have been revealed in Ukraine by the investigation.

Quote: Igor Levertov

And I’ll tell you one more secret: the Americans refused to sell us the necessary equipment for gold, but only for wheat they agreed. And then our wheat went for export, and our people began to die of hunger.

No, of course. Nobody sent significant quantities of grain for export while the country was starving. At that time, we were far from in power. As one of the factors, yes. By the way, we also had obligations to supply bread to Europe.

Quote: Igor Levertov

So you are more careful with the terms, please!

Please reread my words about the Holodomor. And you will see that they are written in the context of the Ukrainian events and, as it were, expose their tales on this score. In your opinion, I should have written in each case as follows - "the events that took place at that time and which are now being passed off as the Holodomor in Ukraine"? But you are right that it is not worth supporting terms that are hostile to us. Because they can settle both in the head and on the tongue.

[Igor Levertov]

Do you know that you are trying to refute well-known facts? I answer and I think you will be very surprised:
1) "... we are witnessing a Chinese and Indian economic miracle based on a fundamentally new system of economic development management. Socialist values, private entrepreneurship, state planning and market self-organization are combined here. Unlike the Western management system serving the interests of financial capital, in the countries of Southeast Asia, the system of governance subordinates financial capital and private business to the interests of society, regulating the market and the movement of money in order to increase social welfare. " (Sergei Glazyev: "On Putin, Trump and the World Behind the Scenes" - "Arguments of the Week" No. 33 of 23 August 2018, p. 21).
2) A question from the editor-in-chief of "AN" Andrey Uglanov Sergey Glazyev: "Explain to me why Sberbank needs to expand its activity in Europe? In the Czech Republic, Sberbank gives loans at 3 or 4% per annum. Why do we need our banks to expand abroad? There is nowhere to put their money - with a printing press! "
S. Glazyev's answer: “In Ukraine, in Croatia, he lost several billion dollars. This means that Gref invests the savings of Russian citizens in the West - this is absurd. The second absurdity is why Sberbank is focused on maximizing profits? After all, it is a state bank, he must deal, as they say in textbooks, the transformation of savings into investments - this is the function of the bank. For this, the state creates banks, protects them, guarantees deposits. We have a share of loans in industrial investments, in the portfolios of our state banks does not exceed 3 - - 4%, ie our state banks are not engaged in lending investments, but are engaged in consumer lending, sucking money from the population at 15 - 20%. This is robbery! Mortgages are also at 10 - 12%, and this is also robbery. Do our incomes grow by 12% a year? No. So this means sucking money out of your pocket. And if the company is forced to take out a loan above the rate of return, then the source of the bank's income is defense This means the enterprise, not only the profit of the enterprise, but also wages, depreciation and everything else. When a state bank is focused on maximizing profits, it means that it is sucking money out of the real sector, taking away working capital! Plus - from the pockets of citizens through consumer loans. "(Sergei Glazyev:" Sergei Glazyev about Skripal and Hillary, the authors of the tale about Putin and Trump "-" Arguments of the Week "No. 34 of August 30, 2018, p. 5).
3) Regarding Ukraine: "Ukraine was occupied by the American special services. It is the CIA that now leads the Security Service of Ukraine, the Pentagon - the armed forces of Ukraine, the entire top commanding staff of the Ukrainian military is trained in the United States, swears in the United States - these are American, in fact, mercenaries. Ukraine is an occupied state ... The current regime in Ukraine is the successors of the Nazi occupation regime, they declare themselves so. " (Sergei Glazyev: "About Skripal and Hillary, the authors of the tale about Putin and Trump" - "Arguments of the Week" No. 34 of August 30, 2018, p. 5)
I fully agree with the assessment of the situation given by Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Adviser to the President on Regional Economic Integration S. Glazyev. If you disagree with me, then argue with him. I also advise you to familiarize yourself with the third article in "Arguments of the Week" No. 35 of September 6, 2018, to increase overall development: "Sergey Glazyev on the beneficiaries of the current economic policy."
PS I'm not very interested in discussing with an opponent who is hiding his face under an unsightly mask. I say goodbye to the sim.

[Red_Baron]

Oh my God. You have this fanaticism again.
You are offended that I disagree with you here and there. And that is understandable. But the fact is that I am more than sure about many things that I remind you of, you know! But just do not apply.
I respect Sergey Glazyev. But understand the simple thing, you are quoting newspaper articles and notes. Where on many issues common words, just common words or blurry concepts. Another thing is if you read some of his material, designed for the scientific community, his very economic program. Do you understand the difference? Here he argues, and because he writes general things, it is not clear what he means. Because many of its concepts include several meanings.

Quote: Igor Levertov

takes the oath in the USA - these are American, in fact, mercenaries

Who takes the oath of the United States? Is the same one and a half? He took the oath to the devil Ukraine when what was the talk about? Etc.

Little of -

Quote: Igor Levertov

Ukraine was occupied by American intelligence agencies. It is the CIA that today directs the Security Service of Ukraine, the Pentagon - the armed forces of Ukraine

You at least read what you quoted. I AM ABOUT THIS AND WRITE TO YOU ALREADY A FEW TIMES. It turns out you can’t even remember what you quote. You write about Ukraine as an independent state and try to describe the processes taking place there. You describe it incorrectly, but that’s not even the point. It is not independent and all these processes are controlled by the best minds of the West. So development will be as beneficial to them. I already wrote about this post 3 in a row. And here you yourself quote it And with what then did you argue? And why did you talk about processes in Ukraine without noticing Glazyev’s words? If you don't like them, challenge him.

Quote: Igor Levertov

PS I'm not very interested in discussing with an opponent who is hiding his face under an unsightly mask. I say goodbye to the sim.

Do you need my face? What other personal data would you like to know about me? The avatar is very cute and has nothing to do with the matter.
Good luck, no offense. I don’t even know what to say in the end. Try not to think in such great detail. That would not be confused at the base. We all make mistakes, the question is whether we have the courage to acknowledge them.

[ser-vas]

Andrey, if the confrontation does happen, then the "duped brothers" will not refuse to shoot at the "unbroken" us, and no one will change the worldview of people at that stage. Yes, after the "victory" it will be possible to change a lot, but for now they are trying to persuade us or, shall we say, not react, and from the other side they incite intransigence and hatred, the likelihood that real bullets will fly in our direction grows. In this situation, thoughts of brotherly love self-destruct and rebuff is given.

[Red_Baron]

Naturally, I personally adhere to the point of view of Israel. If something flies towards them or is attacked or something else, then they rise and endure everything that struck and was near.
And about everything else I will write in response to the post oprovergatel (Max), so as not to be repeated. He wrote a lot of everything, albeit somewhat superficially.

[andrewkor]

And in "Tanchiki" this "Ch.N." there is? Need to try!

[Cananecat]

In appearance, only the French LT family is suitable. )))

[Red_Baron]

There is AW where there is even AT2 ChallengerXNUMX.

[Red_Baron]

And how should the game differ BN from ATDU? another gun is standing, another engine or what?
How should the game show that a second observational device and the best detection of equipment appeared at night? Or KAZ, whose characteristics are not known, and an example of work, too.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Red_Baron

How should the game show that a second observational device and the best detection of equipment appeared at night?

In theory, in the game, these changes should affect the viewing range and the probability of detecting enemy equipment.

Quote: Red_Baron

Or KAZ, whose characteristics are not known, and an example of work, too.

Take data from advertising brochures - and divide by pi.

[Red_Baron]

Quote: Alexey RA

In theory, in the game, these changes should affect the viewing range and the probability of detecting enemy equipment.

On the idea, yes, but here comes a moment like balance. In fact, the modern MBT should be compared with others so ultimatum machine that no game will not work - well, maybe against another similar MBT. We go further, although such games are called team games, truly team actions are very rare there. Indeed, in the end, the rating depends on each individually and everyone wants to be well done and become the best. It doesn’t matter what class of equipment he plays. Hence the sea of ​​conventions. As a result, it turns out that a certain class of technology is characterized by such characteristics, a certain model of their own, as the authors see them. And here we get a contradiction - the MBT review cannot be very large so that the advantage of another class does not disappear. And the probability of detection, too. And he himself should be visible as far as possible and earlier. Again for the sake of playability. But that is not all.
The absence of additional protection blocks - dynamic and others - will extremely weaken the tank. And in the end, for the game, the BN version does not give almost any advantages, it loses almost everything that it owned. After all, the series of challengers is the most protected and thickest.

Quote: Alexey RA

Take data from advertising brochures - and divide by pi.

I'm afraid they don’t like my Pi :) although I respect the technique of others.

[Strashila]

"They want to send" Black Night "to the battle with the Russian Army. Ambition prevailed over common sense" ... what common sense ... in order to clash, you need to get to the mainland ... and it's not a fact that they will swim when everything is on an adult will.

[Red_Baron]

That is, blocking the strait from somewhere far away is easier than transferring your strength through it? nude nude, but where is the logic?

[BAI]

Against this background, the recent information about the successful modernization program of the British tanks of the Challenger Mk 2 family under the Black Night project is not out of the ordinary.

This information on any background will not be something out of the ordinary. Any weapon is always modernized and improved.

[Faceless]

Armor penetration ATGM "Chrysanthemum-S" 1200 mm of homogeneous armor at an angle of 45 degrees. And the range is above 4 km. so the equivalent of 800-900 mm will not save) This is, in addition to everything else)

[Red_Baron]

I understand that you are not very armed. But at least read the article. A bunch of people wrote comments, it is not clear why, without even reading and not understanding what is written.
800-900 is written against BOPS, that is, it is a kinetic blow. Against cumulative ammunition, the resistance of armor is different and usually higher.

[kimlykvp]

Limes never knew how to build tanks, much less correctly use them in battle.

[Himdym]

I’m wondering, but ordinary Britons do not ask the question what for so many pounds of their taxes flies into the pipe and do not want to ask what interest Her Majesty has in the independent?

[Red_Baron]

And who told you that the British have an interest in Ukraine? Is the article written? So it doesn’t mean anything yet. The declaration of intent and the demonstration of these intentions often have nothing to do with real plans. Moreover, Britain does not act alone, but simply as a representative of the coalition with the United States. Accordingly, Britain is independent and something that stirs something up is not even worth it.

But about the British - you do not rely on history for nothing. Britain has ALWAYS waged some kind of predatory wars. She always had large and small colonies. That is, the issue of influence, including the military in the territory, is completely normal phenomenon for them, which is in the blood. Naturally, the parliament knows how to count money, and because of this, many programs, including military ones, were hacked or somehow reduced, but the interests of Britain outside it are extremely important for them.

[d ^ Amir]

dear author, what is CB ????

[Berkut24]

Uh ... a

NE of Russia

what is this office?

[Captain Pushkin]

Quote: Berkut24

Uh ... a

NE of Russia

what is this office?

Most likely, SV - Ground Forces.

[Jerk]

As I said before, the British ground army against Russia is the plot for the Comedy Club. The last time the British actually fought on earth ... In Sevastopol, it seems? The result, which is very fig-ry for them - it is still believed that they at least did not win this war, and it is considered in England.
The rest of the time, their colonies, which are now absent, fought for them. And they have ground forces Not enough for the conquest of Lithuania

[Jerk]

I know. what does my nickname mean And I also perfectly understand the difference between populism and realism. So "British tanks against the RF Armed Forces" is to throw the corpses of British tankers on the sands of Syria - and nothing else. And the women do not give birth to nifiga, they have a lack of population since the end of WWII, which is why they accepted ANY emigrants in general after the war. To throw scanty ground troops, which even have armored personnel carriers, are mostly policemen, and not battlefield vehicles, on the army, and not against the IRA - this is to bury it - and very quickly. THEY HAVE NO ARMY!
But YOU are not able to understand this, which is ridiculous.

[Red_Baron]

That is, the famous Voriors of which about 700 pieces and light Simitars of which various modifications of several thousand pieces are these policemen too? it's true not armored personnel carriers but still.
Yes, and where does it against the army? I thought that you won’t get to the tanks :) they are quite modern and not bad about 350 pieces. What if not more than anyone else in Europe, then at one of the highest levels.
The ground forces themselves are not so big. yes, but Britain never concealed that it was not going to conduct hostilities alone.
By the way, its population is now about 65 million, which is slightly less than half the population of Russia. Although the area is less than 2 times smaller.

[Jerk]

According to the British Ministry of Defense, published on September 20, 2018 in accordance with the Freedom of Information Act (FOI), the shortage of personnel in the regular infantry battalions of the British army (of which there are 29 now, excluding two Gurkh battalions) per 1 July 2018 amounted to 12,4% of the nominal strength (in general, the British army has a shortage of 6,8%).

Amen

[Jerk]

You mean the terrible might of the 29 battalions, which is the ENTIRE army, what can you tell? And about the armored personnel carrier - read what they write to you, and not your fantasies - I said, "mostly", and this is a fact, they have been releasing these for a long time, Saxon is not the first and not the last swallow, and he is a purely policeman, outside dear to do them no shit. The Skimitar tank is not at all in the subject, like the Warrior BMP.

[Red_Baron]

What do you want from me? This is the time you wrote an incoherent post to which I will answer, but what next? You will continue to throw some incoherent words.
In something you are right, but mostly not. About BTR you are again not quite right. You just decided that the APC should be some kind of what you think is right. But in the world, this is not quite so. For example, AFV432, of which under 500 pieces, more than Saxons, which are long outdated, are used as armored personnel carriers.

Quote: Jerk

off roads to do them fucking.

This is of course complete nonsense. It was designed for off-road and shows itself perfectly there. Naturally, he is not perfect there. But no horror, as you fanatically write. I know very well why you write this way and where you got this information from. Therefore, he criticized your mind many times and my opinion in this regard is constantly being strengthened.

Quote: Jerk

Tank Skimitar is not a topic at all, as is BMP Varrior.

Simitar is naturally not a tank, it has a modification, if I am not mistaken, Scorpio with a tank gun.
You generally approach the technology of Great Britain with some kind of its own side. In general, if you are not stupid, then you need not to compose any nonsense, but try to understand what and why. From the time of World War II until today, the UK is full of precisely reconnaissance equipment, both heavy and light. Moreover, even in VO there were several articles as about its history, existing and possible modernization-replacement. This is a patrol technique. Therefore, her appearance and functions are appropriate.
But understand what the whole insanity is? The fact that you are emphasizing a small number of ground forces in the UK began to dig into the APCs. As if they were kings on the battlefield, and the outcome of the battle depends on their design. As you said - tanks are not the topic, BMP is not the topic.
I understand that the BTR is the queen of the fields? This is an additional confirmation of your mental activity to shift the emphasis in favor of some less important detail and be able to get rich there.

[Red_Baron]

You should not appeal to him in vain, it is a person who has long gone mad. Who lives in his own world, where all victories will be small bloodshed and on foreign territory. Naturally, he himself will not do anything, just scream loudly, and then he will finish his beer, burp and kindly think - what a patriot I am !.

[Soho]

bitterlemon Today, 10:36
And the British can be understood if all sorts of "Petrovoboshirovs" are using chemical warfare agents on their territory.

directly apply? Avon is like .... And many people died from the use of BOV in England?

[Red_Baron]

Once again, in the comments on this article I ask - read the article through the eyes. Everything is written there. I understand that you do not understand anything in the topic of the article, but there it is specially chewed.
Any person who understands what they are talking about will see that you wrote complete nonsense about the article. In the article, you can check any facts if you want and indicate that it is not accurate.
There is no less than 30 horsepower in the article. Do you understand? It says - "with a specific power of about 24,3 hp / t." do you understand the specific? and horsepower per ton - do you understand? For example, our BMP-1 has a specific power of 23 hp / ton. Can't turn the tower too?

[Red_Baron]

Quote: bitterlemon

What is "SV of Russia"? Maybe - the sun ?!

maybe Ground Forces ????????

[sleeve]

Experience in tank building is usually bought with the blood of tankers in real combat operations. If it is not, the tank will be closer to the Rolls-Royce, so as not to "torment" the tankers. In general, the process is familiar and even predictable in development. In France it ended with a € 13 million Leclerc and such a “promising” model that one question remains from looking at the € 21 million price tag. “Does it fly?”.

[Red_Baron]

Meanwhile, France sold its Leclerc to the United Arab Emirates and such a not-so-bad lot, and certainly a bunch of components, and service contracts. Do not consider all fools.
And little Korea or Japan also created their MBT almost more expensive than Leclerc.

[Blackgrifon]

Quote: sleeve

"Leclerc" for 13 million euros and such a "promising" model that one question remains from looking at the price of 21 million. "Does it fly?"

At the same time, the Arabs Leklerkov lost only 3 pieces in Yemen, which seems to hint that either the machine is not as bad as they say about it, or the level of training of UAE tankers is not so low. The cost of the car depends on and on the size of the series.

[sleeve]

My friends, I had in mind both. For each given case I will say this: how many were, how many were burned. We do not know the tactical raxlad of the clash, we will not take up the forces of resistance, separation, armament, etc. Well, all the same, there were three tanks in the warehouse, one lightning struck, which means 30% of the negative. with the price purely on the calculation of costs for the state budget, i.e. for the pocket of citizens. In addition, I deny getting along about the lack of a mobilization moment in future wars. Therefore, the harder the worse. Well, and so on for every fad in the same vein ... I hope you see, the ideological platform is known. Therefore, for me there is no question which is better: one leclerc or five T-72B3M.

[Red_Baron]

It seems to me, but it’s not my idea that a regular army needs a sophisticated, modern and sophisticated technique. Because these are people who study for long periods and are professionals in their field. The mobilization army needs a different technique. Yes, approximately like the T-72B3. Much cheaper, but more massive, much less complex, but at the level and meeting the capabilities of the mobilization troops. I am not saying anything about somewhat lesser possibilities, because there is no compromise without loss. But 5 is no doubt better. for mobilization.

[sleeve]

Exactly. Thank you for understanding. Of course, ongoing discussions are about the technical compliance of one sample with another. However, few people face spears in questions of the type of war. Yes, and a purely technical factor is missed over the cost of technology over time. In principle, this is observed in the entire technological culture of mankind, for some reason excluding precisely foreign military equipment. This is of course connected with purely financial considerations. It turns out that according to the laws of economics. About the mob.army. In a global war with instant confrontation, this form also becomes an element of the preservation of internal discipline and statehood. Moreover, with regard to Russia this is inevitable, since we ALWAYS have to defend ourselves. Well, a professional army is naturally necessary, in parallel. For what? Yes, here Syria for example, and indeed. But this will not mean that the technique for the pros and for the composition of the ore should radically differ. This is inconvenient for the economy.

[Aibolit]

Quote: Author

This collage illustrates all the advantages of the configuration of the location of KAZ Trophy's radar sensors on the M1A2 SEPv2 OBT tower (left) before the more vulnerable Kor IronFist radar modules location on the Challenger Mk 2 tower in the Black Night modification (right)

The article resembles sour vinaigrette on the 3rd day after the celebration of the new year ...
All in a bunch (leftovers from plates), and mix well with a mixer and you can have a bite, and so it will do.
"SV" is understandable, in a hurry.

Conclusion: the model of placement of KAZ Iron Fist radar facilities on Challengers 2 from BAE Systems has extremely low survivability in combat conditions. It is possible to damage the RPS-10 decimeter AFAR radars of the Iron Fist interceptor control by means of heavy shelling of several BMPs from automatic guns

is there a "vulnerability difference"?

It seems to me the Challenger Mk 2 BN, it will just be more secure (by KAZ).
Although I am not an "automatic cannon BMP"

[Red_Baron]

Actually, the author is right. you just wanted to find fault.

Quote: Aibolit

"SV" is understandable, in a hurry.

Ground Forces require haste?

Regarding KAZ, the author described in detail what he had in mind, but you are not the first who could not - did not want to read it. If you hit the tower, where most of the hits will happen to the Challenger, the KAZ will lose a big chance simply because the fragments can touch them, Abrams is not on the armor of the tower and due to the cheekbones, the chances are that the fragments will bypass along the geometric path. When fired from automatic guns, the chances are approximately equal due to scatter at a good distance. But how likely is it that their tank gun will shoot at the tank, or will there be some kind of kamikaze firing from an automatic BMP gun?

[Aibolit]

Quote: Red_Baron

Actually, the author is right. you just wanted to find fault.

in what
In this picture? (placing Abrasha on the side, and Challenger in front?)

and ears, how are you?

Ground Forces require haste?

haste requires "haste" the speed of article writing.
Either a sniper rifle, or ground forces.

who could not - did not want to read

and I could, and read it.

Quote: Aibolit

The article resembles sour vinaigrette on the 3rd day after the celebration of the new year ...
All in a bunch (leftovers from plates), and mix well with a mixer and you can have a bite, and so it will do.

and Mariupol, and Syria and S-300, Avax + F-35 add, water the Novice - in general a masterpiece of a sore head.

Quote: Red_Baron

at Abrams they are not on the armor of the tower and due to the cheekbones, there is a good chance that the fragments will bypass the geometric path.

1.What is this "geometric trajectory"?
2.Look here again

-mine explosion
- undermining OFS / AB
grenades
RPG
shooting
-Yes even travel in tight spots
-etc.
the wider the muzzle (the ears and cheeks are permissible), the less chance of missing it

Quote: Red_Baron

When fired from automatic guns, the chances are approximately equal due to scatter at a good distance.

no, not equal, maybe the frontal projection is different

[Red_Baron]

You again could neither read nor understand what was written. I don’t understand how you got such a desire to write something. Most of it is just stupid.

Quote: Aibolit

in what
In this picture? (placing Abrasha on the side, and Challenger in front?)

I described in detail what the author is right for, but you could not read here either.
What kind of photos he posted, case ten - you posted the right ones - excellent. But I did not write about the photo, but specifically.

Quote: Aibolit

haste requires "haste" the speed of article writing.
Either a sniper rifle, or ground forces.

If a sniper rifle seemed to you in the context of the article, then this is extremely strange. I've read the Ground Forces, I don’t know if I’m right, of course. But it was like they were even mentioned in most of the comments.

Quote: Aibolit

and I could, and read it.

Yeah, about the sniper rifle.

Quote: Aibolit

1.What is this "geometric trajectory"?
2.Look here again

So, I specially showed in the top view a trajectory for which the fragments will not fly if there is a hit in the forehead of the tower. Just because the shape of the tower is such, all the fragments that want to go beyond this sector are in contact with the tower and it will change their trajectory.

Quote: Aibolit

-mine explosion
- undermining OFS / AB
grenades
RPG

Like any attachment. And nothing - like tanks ride with him. Just because there’s no other way. That is, if they want to knock out exactly the equipment, they will knock it out. But if they will shell a tank, then the matter is different.
But here's the thing - the Challenger's KAZ is no better protected from all the threats that you listed. Do you understand? We are not arguing about whether KAZ is vulnerable, but it was about the difference between the installation on two tanks. So I said right away, you just wanted to argue with the author, no matter what the reason. The article clearly states - "what protects the AFAR canvases from high-speed fragments of any large-caliber projectiles hitting the frontal plates of the tower and VLD." this is a direct quote. there is not a word about the fact that they are generally invulnerable or some other cheating things. I drew the most elementary geometry confirming these words for you, what is wrong? and said that they had read the article.

Quote: Aibolit

shooting

You said you read the article. Here is another proof of how you read. Both the article and my answer are previous to you.
In the article, again I will quote, it is written - "these sensors will not be saved even by the fact that the CHR antennas are made of armor steel, which provides the radar with protection from bullets and shrapnel"
I didn’t understand about RPGs, you forgot what we are talking about? About KAZ, it is intended to deal with RPG grenades as well.

Quote: Aibolit

-Yes even travel in tight spots

Have you seen how to travel in bottlenecks? just wondering. I had a photo from a direct participant in an officer of one of the armies, though Leopard 2 was driving there. And in combat, no one will do so, if not extreme measures. And then not to attachments, life would be saved.
You look now, ALL that you wrote generally from another topic. You did not read what was written in the article, you began to argue unclear with what.
No offense, but here I read the article.

Quote: Aibolit

the wider the muzzle (the ears and cheeks are permissible), the less chance of missing it

Of course. And nobody argues with that. But under normal conditions, no one will ever aim at some kind of ears, but will try to knock out the tank.

Quote: Aibolit

no, not equal, maybe the frontal projection is different

and where does the frontal projection ???? :)
Again, for some reason, you are strange about geometry. I understand everything. I myself studied at school for a long time, but these are basic concepts, they just need to be taken into account.
Here you are firing from an automatic gun. At a distance of a couple of kilometers, the range of dispersion of shells will be greater than the frontal projection of the tank. The article is generally written even from 3 kilometers.
Moreover, I will write in more detail, again, the words from the article. You understand what’s the matter - read how many goals the same Challenger can hit in 1 minute. Some sort of point-fire from close range is simply excluded - any carrier of an automatic gun will be destroyed. I think that’s why the author took a great distance and shelling from different directions.

You have not a word in the dispute at least somehow affecting the article. All disputes with something that is not in it.

[avia12005]

One question: if there are British snipers in the Donbass, then why not one of them was taken prisoner and presented to the "community"?

[Anchonsha]

And you try what you’re talking about. Melkobrit himself never does anything with his own hands, and even more so where it can be captured.

[Anchonsha]

0
And you try what you’re talking about. Melkobrit himself never does anything with his own hands, and even more so where it can be captured.
Reply

[avia12005]

I did not poke you. If the task were set, it would be completed.

[Red_Baron]

British snipers are so stupid that they carry documents with them and at the first meeting they admit that the SAS colonel is like that, here are my documents. Well, the British, nuuu stupid.

Quote: avia12005

publicity

You seem to stutter. You know - stuttering speech is okay, it is much worse to have a stutter in another place and consider everyone as idiots.
"As May noted, this mission will be the first where the British military will, together with colleagues from another country, train the Ukrainian Armed Forces fighters on the territory of Ukraine. The main emphasis, in order to resist the militia units, is planned to be on training Ukrainian snipers."
That is, the arrival of British snipers in Ukraine says May, but for you this is not a reliable source? :))))

[Alexey-74]

the "zhmurov" simply had no documents with them ...

[Anchonsha]

Well, all the same from the little shaving, as in the past and the pose of the last century. An abomination is probably never to be an attractive disgust, which was previously an arrogant, small but aggressive country.

[Alexey-74]

Old basin in new packaging.

[kplayer]

It is clear that the KAZ of a British tank is not intended for use in intensive databases, but saves only from ambush actions in local conflicts like Iraq, without the participation of tanks, motorized infantry, artillery and aviation from the enemy. In my opinion, it was possible not to paint the obvious in the article.

[Red_Baron]

To be honest, I didn’t understand you :)
What parameters of KAZ have prompted you to such an opinion? Its placement? But this has nothing to do with its characteristics. And perhaps the threat from everything else is considered lower for them than from threats that KAZ itself is fighting. And maybe they are right. KAZ is not a panacea for everything; it has specific tasks and it is foolish to demand that it be solved by others.
Moreover, the fact that you have listed generally has no relation to KAZ. It can work that in those conditions that in others, there is no difference. The difference may be in the design of KAZ itself, but I already asked above about it and what did not suit you in it.
By the way, this KAZ was developed by the Israelis, and they kind of participated in various conflicts involving all of the above.

[kplayer]

Well, when did this Israeli KAZ take part in conflicts involving all of the above? from the enemy? The point is not in the characteristics, but in the vulnerability of the equipment (optoelectronic, etc.). I remind you, intensive databases last for months, rear and technical. will not keep up with the repair and restoration of KAZ (sophisticated equipment), when the main thing is to supplement the tank and fuel tanks (survivors).

[Red_Baron]

Quote: kplayer

Well, when did this Israeli KAZ take part

Could you please quote where I declare this?

[kplayer]

By the way, this KAZ was developed by the Israelis, and they kind of participated in various conflicts involving all of the above.

- Then why and what is it written about?

[kplayer]

My comment was on the article, this is not the thoughts of Ch. by ear ...

Meanwhile, if we take a close look at the design features of placing the KAZ Iron Fist radar sensors on the tower of the experimental Black Night Mk 2 Challenger, we will gradually begin to guess that during an intense battle with our motorized rifle regiments and tank brigades Iron Fista ”Is enough only for a short period of collision.

- Hence, etc., and the subsequent paragraph.

[Red_Baron]

So the author writes the placement of elements of KAZ. That they are located not very well and talks about it. And not KAZ itself. There is not a word about KAZ itself in the article.
And you write ""

Quote: kplayer

It is clear that the KAZ of the British tank is designed

about KAZ itself. :)

[kplayer]

KAZ is a COMPLEX basically consisting precisely of the external (external) components of detection and suppression, except for the electronic elements of the control inside, which are inefficient and useless without external ones, huh ?!

[kplayer]

The composition of KAZ Iron Fist, see on the website of IMI Systems (Israel) ...

http://www.imisystems.com/cwsd.php?Z3AuPTQ0MQ/NDQ/bXd8YSljb3Z6KnV2aQ.pdf

Those. MBT requires a minimum of 4 detection elements (for 360º viewing), 2 - suppression (PU), 1 - control (computer).

[Red_Baron]

AND???
I didn’t quite catch your thought. I am aware of all of the above. Just how does this affect your words? Why this KAZ is not suitable for ordinary battles, only of low intensity. And if this does not fit, then which one fits? You look at how many posts you wrote and in none of them you wrote completely what you want to say.

[kplayer]

What kind of fights low intensity ?!

Meanwhile, if we take a close look at the design features of placing the KAZ Iron Fist radar sensors on the tower of the experimental Black Night Challenger Mk 2, we will gradually begin to guess that during an intense battle with our motorized rifle regiments and tank brigades, “Iron Fista” is only enough for a short period of collision.

[Red_Baron]

Quote: kplayer

What kind of low intensity fights ?!

Quote: kplayer

It is clear that the KAZ of the British tank is not intended for use in intensive databases

Hmm, you probably need to ask.

[kplayer]

Between DB, war, conflict and battle so far I see the difference.

[kplayer]

... among the armored vehicles imitating the main battle tanks T-72B3, there is a fairly compact and low-profile combat reconnaissance vehicle (BRM) FV107 "Scimitar" ...

And even earlier in the training units "aggressor" (for example, in Fort Irwin) our "72s" and "80s" imitated Scorpions, Simiters and Sheridans, i.e. machines with small overall dimensions.

[Red_Baron]

Quote: kplayer

The point is not in the characteristics, but in the vulnerability of the equipment (optoelectronic, etc.). I remind you, intensive databases last for months, rear and technical. will not keep up with the repair and restoration of KAZ (sophisticated equipment), when the main thing is to supplement the tank and fuel tanks (survivors).

So any other equipment of the tank is no less difficult and expensive and the repair will be or will not keep pace with it.
The problem is that the tank itself is much more expensive. And if KAZ, costing much less than a tank, allows it to be saved, that is, to save these several million dollars, then certainly it is worth it in any conflict.

[kplayer]

... then certainly it is worth it in any conflict.

To do business, you need resources (and not just loot), including sensible hands and heads, while in the field (and not in the shops of companies) they also run out, especially with intensive databases.

[tank64rus]

It is necessary to report to the British taxpayers.

[1536]

So what, do these Britons want to go to war with us, or what? Correct the mistakes of the "fraternal people"?
It’s dangerous to go to London, you need to buy at least some kind of advertising movie about Britain, in which case you should see what kind of Britain it was.

[Red_Baron]

Think of such an organization, a quasi-state of the IG (banned in Russia). Remember what they did to Syria and that no one will ever see most of the monuments of iconic places, events, culture of ALL OUR CIVILIZATION. And the part will not see in its original form.
Do not find anything to do with them in thinking?

[kig]

What is NE Russia?

[Larum]

Throw all the hats. And Heroes of Russia-sportBADovschiki disperse all!

[loha]

Guys can someone tell me ,,, the article all the time mentions "SV of Russia" what is it? And how it will confront the British Armed Forces and the US Armed Forces

[Red_Baron]

Yes, they have already written many times that we are talking about the Ground Forces. They are in the UK and the USA, so do not worry, they will resist and I hope successfully.

[Red_Baron]

Quote: sleeve

Moreover, with regard to Russia this is inevitable, since we ALWAYS have to defend ourselves. Well, a professional army is naturally necessary, in parallel. For what? Yes, here Syria for example, and indeed.

Here I can only add on my own. It seems to me personally that it is not necessary to defend oneself passively and not within one’s own country. There should be a chain of military bases in the regions of interest to us. In which our economic and partly political interests should be observed. At the bases to undergo training in the running-in equipment in the respective region. In general, the question of our armed forces and their presence abroad should be reviewed. Well, I want to say a lot about this, but the topic is not a bit about this.

Quote: sleeve

But this will not mean that the technique for the pros and for the composition of the ore should radically differ. This is inconvenient for the economy.

Naturally, but in this regard it is a little easier for us. We have the vast heritage of the USSR. Armat, unfortunately, there will be units, well, at least in the beginning. T-90 and T-72 upgraded to the latest modifications will be hundreds. There are thousands of non-modernized ones that are stored in varying degrees of severity. The difference in maintenance of the T-72A and T-72B3 are not so different that there would be anything to talk about. That is, in fact, tanks of a general design, but different in equipment.

[aiden]

Can he shoot hash with shells too? In general, someone would write an article about this munition

[kplayer]

... hit the RPS-10 radar sensor 14,5-mm armor-piercing incendiary bullet B-32 will definitely lead to serious damage to a large number of receiving and transmitting modules and the failure of the module.

Hint to the author, B-32 type bullets are equipped with not only 14,5x114 mm KPV machine gun cartridges, but also 7,62x54 and 12,7x108 mm domestic rifle ammunition for machine guns and sniper rifles.

[kplayer]

In fact, the main drawback of the KAZ based on radar detection systems (both Armat MBT and Black Knight MBT) is that they can all be tracked by the enemy’s ground and aviation radio intelligence systems (RTR). It’s enough just to hammer artillery and MLRS on coordinates obtained using RTR reconnaissance. Those. when creating a KAZ, priority should be given to optoelectronic detection systems (IR / UV ranges), since they were going to fight regular technologically advanced enemy armies, and not just guerrilla-type formations.

[Red_Baron]

And how can they be tracked if there is a relief around, the radiation of power is far from airplane.
And how should birds or shells in the infrared / ultraviolet range stand out?
Radio intelligence? But a drone can detect a much simpler technique, faster, safer. And the means of RTR can reveal themselves.

[kplayer]

RTR is not to be confused with RLR!

And ATGM like any UR does not have a torch in flight?
A UAV ("faster and safer"...) don't you need to appear directly above the targets, or they are loitering in hundreds of them in a free hunt mode, covering the entire operational space of the fronts, or is it still only in the region of conducting separate or certain operations (for example, CCO) ?
And study the range of operation distances of RTR stations, at what distance from the contact line of the sides they can work and what types of targets to detect.
And how will you discover RTR stations, by the same stations? and how will you hunt them (probably also like for AWACS planes)?

PS: I added you to the cohort of empty chimes, I don’t know how to protect yourself from the blacklist.

[Red_Baron]

Speaking of idle talk, you as always saw only half. Why didn’t they write anything about shells? Do they also have a torch? :)))
An UAV directly above targets? Why's that?
Nothing was answered about the relief and so on.

Quote: kplayer

or nevertheless, so far only in the district of conducting separate or certain operations

Do you expect that the enemy tanks will be somewhere else? Secretly teleport.
You reminded a joke - We are going with Vasily Ivanovich in a clean field and suddenly from around the corner of the tank. :)))

“The next step was an attempt to create early detection of ATGMs with ultraviolet direction finders for the subsequent setting of air curtains on the German MUSS. The same principle is used in Afganit, but one ultraviolet direction finder is not enough for reliable operation, since such a direction finder cannot see through smoke and fog.

Then there were experiments with infrared ATGM direction finders in AMAP-ADS, capable of seeing through smoke, but the range of reliable detection of ATGMs was small.

For the first time in the Swiss AvePS, infrared direction finders and radar were combined, but the range was again short. "

It's good that you found a reliable solution that others could not find. you are not a puffer?

[kplayer]

And what is there with the discovery of RTR stations?

In addition to the RPG and ATGM cumulative grenades, do KAZ dreamers also have to cope with BOPS (up to 2000 m / s) ?!

What is there with the relief? Not to be confused with the radar, but to study the principles of operation and characteristics of RTR stations for starters!

What for intelligence? Well, they know where the enemy’s tanks are and how much, huh ?!

So and I do not need about direction finders still not perfect, who believes in the omnipotence (+ all-weather and all-weather) of KAZ, and even in the big war.

PS: A thoughtless person probably expects an entire educational article from me instead of comments.

[Red_Baron]

I personally do not expect anything from a balabol, from the very beginning it was understood that you simply have some kind of common fantasies based on nothing. They could not answer a single question; moreover, all the uncomfortable facts were stupidly discarded. simple baby balabolstvo.

[kplayer]

- And our windbag - "piglet" answered? Too thoughtless to see my answers.
Learn the materiel!

[Red_Baron]

Balabol apparently studied it well, though he didn’t understand anything, but these are trifles. Balabolam and do not need to answer anything, they even drones fly over their heads only. And the tanks are teleporting.

[Prosha]

Jews are smarter - they asked Ukrainians and received teachings against the S-300, but the Saxons did not ask, and the Ukrainians did not think of submitting their T-72 for the exercises, they probably have DT of the wrong viscosity.)

[Vasilij Pereira]

The trouble is not that the West is accumulating military equipment. After all, he spends his money on iron that will rust. The trouble is that over the centuries, capitalism has not found a reasonable way out of the crises that it itself creates! This is like the children of bad parents: it seems that they are not going to repeat the mistakes of their ancestors, but when they get into an extreme situation, they "automatically" repeat them, because they saw how their parents did it. No matter how much the West "sings" about peace and democracy, it will fill its mistakes with someone else's blood!

[Red_Baron]

And why did you decide that these are mistakes?

[Mark586]

Evgeny Damantsev, what is SV Russia? Maybe you mean the Armed Forces, or again transferred to Google again?