"Great Purge": fighting fists

Since the 20th party congress in 1956, many people have fallen under the power of the myth of the "bloody tyrant to Stalin," which killed millions of people. Allegedly all repressed - innocent victims of Stalinist tyranny.

But in fact, most of the convicts were bandits, thieves, murderers, rapists, and real "enemies of the people." And thanks to the fight against the “fifth column” on the eve of World War II, the Red Army had a reliable rear, which allowed the USSR-Russia to stand under the blows of Hitler’s European Union and win the most brutal war in stories humanity.

As a typical example of a blow of repression, you can take the story of Abel Yenukidze. He is a professional revolutionary, from October 1918, a member of the Presidium and secretary of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee, from December 1922 to March 1935, secretary of the CEC of the USSR. In February, 1937 was arrested and 30 of October of the same year was shot by the sentence of the Military Collegium of the USSR Supreme Court. In 1960, the Yenukidze case was revised, and he was posthumously rehabilitated as a victim of Stalinist repression, and also reinstated to membership in the Communist Party.

Why was a prominent revolutionary repressed? 5-7 June 1935 of the year, at a meeting of the Plenary Meeting of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b), among other topics, addressed the issue "On the official staff of the Secretariat of the CEC of the USSR and Comrade A. Enukidze". The Resolution of the plenum of 7 on June 1935 stated: “1. To approve the measures taken by the control bodies to check and improve the official office of the Secretariat of the CEC of the USSR. 2. For the political and domestic decay of the former CEC secretary, Comrade. A. Enukidze to withdraw him from the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) and exclude him from the ranks of the CPSU (b) ”. In fact, a high-ranking party functionary fell into disgrace.

Yenukidze became the central figure of the "Kremlin case". He was accused of treason and espionage. He was also charged with participation in the “military-fascist conspiracy in the Red Army” (“The Case of Tukhachevsky-Yakir”), which aimed to carry out a military coup in the USSR and overthrow the power of the Bolshevik Party. Yenukidze was one of the key figures in this conspiracy: they were recruited by the Kremlin commandant R. A. Peterson, who was assigned by the conspirators to train personnel for the capture of the Kremlin at the time the military coup began.

In addition, it turned out that Yenukidze is a sexual pervert. Maria Svanidze, who was part of Stalin’s family circle (wife of Alyosha Svanidze, brother of the first wife of I. Stalin) wrote in the 28 diary on June 1935: “Abel, undoubtedly, in that position, had a tremendous influence on our life during 17 years after the revolution. Being depraved and voluptuous himself, he smelled everything around him: he was delighted with pandering, family discord, girls seduction. Having in his hands all the blessings of life, unattainable for all, especially in the first years after the revolution, he used it all for personal dirty purposes, buying women and girls. Too bad to talk and write about it. Being an erotically abnormal and obviously not one hundred percent man, every year he switched to more and more young and finally came to the girls in 9-11 years, corrupting their imagination, corrupting them, if not physically, then morally. This is the foundation of all the ugliness that happened around him. Women with suitable daughters owned everything. Girls as unnecessary palmed off to other men, more unstable morally. The institution recruited staff only on sex, like Abel. In order to justify his debauchery, he was ready to encourage him in everything: he walked widely towards her husband, who left his family, children, or simply drove her husband with a ballerina, a typist, etc., unnecessary for him, so as not to be too much in view of the party, he surrounded himself with non-partisan , secretaries, friends and acquaintances - from the theatrical world) ”. These words were confirmed by the testimony of other members of the "Kremlin case".

Thus, the Yenukidze case is a typical example of how they misinterpret the true history of repression and the struggle against the “fifth column” under Stalin. When murderers, rapists and traitors are turned into "innocent victims of Stalinism."

Peasant War

The confrontation between the peasants and the authorities was one of the brightest and bloody pages of the Civil War in Russia and the subsequent construction of socialism in the USSR — dekulakization, collectivization.

To understand the essence of this process, it is necessary to recall the deep essence of the catastrophe of 1917-1920. In Russia, the Romanovs divided the people into noble “Europeans”, a westernized social elite who had access to education, balls, champagne, restaurants, trips abroad and, in general, a “beautiful life”, and ordinary people who had been hating for centuries of social injustice, established in Russia. World war led to the fact that millions of ordinary men were put under arms, thrown into a bloody meat grinder. A huge mass of people have been accustomed to blood, violence. And this mass consisted of people who did not understand the essence of the war - after all, nobody attacked Russia! The Straits and Constantinople are for the intelligentsia, and not for the peasant. Ordinary men hated power (and after "Bloody Sunday", the tsar also lost their priesthood), the landowners who stole their land and the bourgeoisie, capitalists, and all intellectuals in general. Stolypin and Rasputin - this was understood, therefore, by all means and tried to save Russia from a big war. In an outwardly prosperous Russian empire, a social volcano lurked, ready to explode at any moment. All that was needed was a fuse — it was the world war in which Western “partners” pulled Russia into it.

Therefore, the soldiers, yesterday's peasants, and became a revolutionary crowd, which according to the concept of revolutionaries-Februaryists and swept away the king. There was a turmoil, a time when it was possible to beat “noble” officers, well-fed bureaucrats, priests and bourgeois, generally “anti-ligents”. Millions of people went for the revolutionaries — the Social Revolutionaries, the people's socialists, the anarchists, the Mensheviks, the Bolsheviks, etc.

As a result, the war led to the beginning of a new peasant war in Russia. Soldiers and sailors killed the officers. The peasants divided the landowners' land and burned the estates. And all this before the October Revolution! The people used the February revolution, which was organized by the then “elite”, in order to free themselves from any power! He did not want to obey the officials, pay taxes, go to serve in the army, feed the city. There was a process of complete alienation of Russian from the state. And after October, when the two authorities, two projects for the restoration of Russia as a state — red and white — came together in a deadly battle, the peasants did everything to destroy statehood, power in the country.

The peasants spontaneously put forward their project for the future of Russia — people's liberty of the people. The utopian ideal of life of free farmers, farmers who received land in the property and on the concepts of neighborhood processing it. Therefore, peasant uprisings, disobedience, mass banditry - the whole peasant war, which runs parallel to the war of the Reds and Whites, has become one of the leading processes of the Civil War in Russia. The Russian peasantry paid a terrible price for their attempt to destroy statehood on the territory of Russian civilization. This Russian revolt - spontaneous and terrible, managed to suppress with great difficulty.

It is this in-depth process that became the basis of the conflict between the peasantry and the Bolsheviks. The Bolsheviks believed that only the proletariat, deprived of property, could build a bright future. The proletariat did not lose anything except “their chains”, and the kulaks and middle peasants, the well-to-do landowners, lost a lot — land, equipment, cattle, acquired good and, most importantly, the dream of a full, measured life (rural image of bourgeois psychology), which interferes with the state. Not surprisingly, the prosperous peasantry was hostile to the Soviet government. What else can you expect from people who are accustomed to living in a “market-bazaar” economy: when produced goods can be brought to the market and sold at an inflated price. At the same time, people knew how to work, to work hard. And now they were told that all this will not happen.

After the abolition of serfdom in Russia in the village began the offensive of capitalism. Very tough process. There was a hard selection. Who could not stand it, “did not fit into the market,” became a poor man, a farmhand at his master or fist, or left for the city, became a worker. The Bolsheviks could promise the peasants only the land. This was done by the Social Revolutionaries, who were more popular in the countryside than the Bolsheviks. And it was they who provoked and organized the majority of peasant riots. When the Bolsheviks took power, they were forced to agree to the distribution of land to the peasants. There was no other way to enlist the support of the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants of Russia.

The conflict between the peasants and the Soviet government began in 1918, when the food crisis broke out. Cities starved and demanded bread. Food in the country was. Even during the war, the harvests were good, trade declined and the peasants accumulated surpluses, which they cleaned up to better times. It was possible to get bread in two ways: exchange it for industrial products, or forcibly withdraw it by paying a token amount. Production began to crumble back in the war years (except for the military industry, which went uphill), the ruble turned into a "candy wrapper". The authorities encountered this problem during the reign of the tsar and the Provisional Government and began the surplus. This is a policy of providing foodstuffs by taxing grain on peasants (“bread”) and other products. As a result, the beginning of the additional development was initiated by the tsarist government at the end of 1916 of the year and continued by the Provisional (in the form of “grain monopoly”), and then by the Soviet government.

"Grain monopoly" was confirmed by the Decree of the Council of People's Commissars of 9 in May 1918, the "food dictatorship" was also introduced. The redevelopment was reintroduced by the Soviet authorities in early January 1919, and became part of the policy of "war communism". It is clear that the peasants refused such a bad bargain, which they were offered by the government, first royal, then Provisional and Soviet. Then the Bolsheviks sent food to the village. It is clear that it was not without massive abuses on the part of the authorities. The rejection of a market economy and the policy of "war communism" also did not contribute to the growth of the popularity of communism in the countryside.

Thus, in Russia in 1917 — 1918. there was a peasant war, which was a significant part of the Russian unrest. It became one of the reasons for the defeat of the White movement, which could not and did not want to find a common language with the peasantry. Pre-revolutionary orders, the power of the capitalists and the big bourgeoisie, were hated by the common people. The Bolsheviks could, where by force, by conviction succeed, reassure peasant Russia. For this, the Soviet government had to temporarily give up - to introduce a new economic policy (NEP) with elements of a market economy. As a result, Russia in the 1920s remained a weak, agrarian power, which had no chance in confrontation with the West. Only Stalin managed to win the second peasant war in order to turn Russia into an industrial power, to prepare the country for a new big war with the collective West.

To be continued ...

Comments

[Declarant]

And yet, Stalin acted very short-sightedly, destroying the NEP.

[Boris55]

Quote: Declarant

And yet, Stalin acted very short-sightedly, destroying the NEP.

The NEP is an attempt by the Trotskyists to return the country to the results of the February bourgeois revolution of the 1917 year. The task that the NEP solved was to prevent the people from building the world's first state of workers and peasants. Stalin managed to seize control and prevent them from doing so. After the assassination of Stalin, the Trotskyists in the 90 years managed to realize their dream. Well, how do you like life today in the modern NEP? Like?

[Nicholas C.]

Samsonov is an addicted person. Again I mixed everything in one pile. Examples of nothing. One statement contradicts another.
If only Stalin had exposed and destroyed the near-Kremlin conspirators, the same Yenukidze, Tukhachevsky, Yehuda, etc. But alas. It was under Stalin that the backbone of the "Russian superetonos" (Samsonov) was broken - a consequence of that time: families began to give birth to one or two children instead of ten or twelve.

Quote: Samsonov

In Russia, the Romanovs there was a division of the people into nobles, "Europeans", westernized social elite, which education was available, balls, champagne, restaurants, trips abroad and, in general, a “beautiful life”, and the common people, who for centuries have accumulated hatred for social injustice that has been established in Russia.

My great-grandfather from peasants under the tsar-priest received education, began to build temples; his brother became a famous Russian artist, gave rise to a dynasty of artists. Come on mine. Lenin’s grandfather was a serf. However, Lenin’s father learned. And when he received the order of Vladimir, then together with the order he and his family were transferred from the middle class to the nobles. Volodya Ulyanov (Lenin) was then 12 years old. Tell me, right now, is it possible for a child from a peasant family with ten children to receive a quality higher education?

Quote: Samsonov

in fact, most of the convicts were gangsters, thieves, murderers, rapists and real "enemies of the people." And thanks to the fight against the “fifth column” on the eve of World War II, the Red Army had a reliable rear, which allowed the USSR-Russia to withstand the blows of the Hitlerite European Union and defeat

The column was too big. Example refutation. My grandfather in that war (as in Finnish) fought for Russia. A communist from the neighboring village of Luka ProskurNin, known for first robbing peasants, forming collective farms, then hiding from peasants in Chechnya almost before the outbreak of war, began to serve Hitler. Together with the Nazis, he left. Miraculously, the surviving family abandoned him, from a single letter in his surname. His son Peter Lukich Proskurin began to write novels about those times. True, I did not read. And I did not watch films on them. An example that people serve the Motherland (Stalin, Khrushchev, Yeltsin, Putin come and go), and crooks - who benefits.
If the tsar’s officers hadn’t written down the fifth column, they would have received education, you’d have looked, hadn’t fled to the Volga and the Caucasus with class right commanders, leaving half the country to ruin and genocide to the Hitler European Union. Under the king, they didn’t run so shamefully. But Samsonov’s logic does not work in this direction. There is either a defeat, or just like that.
The story did not end on Stalin. As a result, crooks surrendered our Motherland in 1991, drove its borders back to the pre-Roman times of the 16th century. A considerable number of them now serve for grants or for becoming slaveholders, modern Hitlers of the European Union and the USA.

[EvilLion]

Of course, I understand everything, but Stalin did it so that in Europe, and in the USA, and especially in Japan, no one is going to give birth to children anymore on 10, or is it a natural process when moving from a village with wild infant mortality to developed urban civilization?

Tell me, is it right now that a child from a peasant family with ten children really get a quality higher education?

Much more real than, for example, Mikhail Lomonosov. Actually, that's why everyone knows Lomonosov, because he was one of tens of millions who wanted and made his way, and thousands of modern students are nobody.

When the king did not run so shamefully.

What are you talking about! I would like to remind you if you heard about this, but the army of the 18-19 of the 20th century are actually officers-noblemen who swear allegiance to some of the peasants from whom demand is zero. And there is a huge difference between the Soviet conscript, undergoing a complex propaganda treatment and personally reading the oath and other obligations and an illiterate peasant of the 19 century, who was recruited for recruits.

And at the same time, the level of transition to service to the enemy at that time is simply rolls over. For noble families, emerging from more feudal times - this is not at all zapadlo. Peter I still had an army of foreign military experts, and of course, in the event of a change in the situation, these people willingly went to the service of others.

You would not tell tales.

If I had not recorded in the fifth column the children of the royal officers.

And Marshal Shaposhnikov, he doesn’t even "kill the tsarist officer", he is already a tsarist colonel. And the civil war is a war that the tsarist colonels won against the tsarist generals. Approximately 40% of the officers of the tsarist army went to serve with the Bolsheviks, and how many were those who did not go, but did not interfere. And back in 1927, an amnesty was announced to the participants of the white movement in the USSR, and many returned, and even served in the Red Army.

[Koshnitsa]

Well, as a "reward" for the betrayal, the Bolsheviks let these deserters into a spray.
Of the 70 thousand officers who served with the Reds, in 1941, 450 people remained in service, almost zero.

[mavrus]

It’s interesting, what do you think should have been the length of service in the Red Army ... In order for the majority of the tsar’s officers to remain in service 24 years after the assignment of officer ranks?

[Koshnitsa]

24 doesn’t work at all, the GW went on until the age of 22 and the ranks were assigned there.
As in any army, all posts from the regiment commander should have been occupied by old officers.
So after all, they were occupied by their peers, members of the WWI, narrow-minded non-commissioned officers, of whom the marshal corps of the Red Army as a whole consisted.
Officers are only Shaposhnikov and wartime Vasilevsky, popovich, the rest of the children of the peasants, as a rule in the non-profit war, sometimes it is simply not clear who.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

This is not counting the nobles ...

[Koshnitsa]

And where do the nobles?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Moreover, the nobles, along with the peasants and priests, were in 1941 in the ranks of the Red Army, Red Army and the NKVD.

[Koshnitsa]

Some, of course, consisted, but restrictions on the service were not removed from the nobility, as they were from the Cossacks in 1936.
During the war, they began to call, like all deprived people since 1942, when the ideological had already fled and surrendered. And in the occupied territories they went to serve the Germans.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

More than 450. I have already counted 515.))

[Koshnitsa]

This is a fundamental difference, but probably 450 are RIA officers, and 515 are officers of the Provisional Government.
However, the counter-question, but where did tens of thousands go?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

What is the fundamental difference? In fact? For example, Govorov went to school, and Bagramyan went to the ensign school under the tsar, graduated from the Provisional Government as officers - do they not count? It’s not their fault that the king didn’t renounce half a year later ...

Where are tens of thousands more? Including to where in our time officers of the Soviet Army went.

[Gopnik]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Including to where in our time officers of the Soviet Army went.

Really in our time, Soviet officers were shot by thousands? What passions ...

[Koshnitsa]

They were destroyed, Sugar Medovich.
Read Volkov.
And at best they were replaced by non-commissioned WWI, and at worst obscure deviators without combat biographies, such as Voroshilov, Tymoshenko and Zhukov.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

I read how! At his place, Volkov, at first in 1920-21 a great number of officers were shot, in 1924 they fired the "last" officers - former whites, then they were massively repressed in Operation Spring, then "during the repressions of the late 30s ... the last former officers who held prominent positions in the army were exterminated "(the last again!), but however" by the beginning of the war only a few hundred former officers remained in the ranks of the army (some of them continued to occupy important posts up to front commanders). "
On my own, I will add that on June 21.06.1941, 40, among the Soviet generals, former officers of the pre-revolutionary army made up about 57%, and of the lieutenant generals - XNUMX%. Moreover, among them are former white (including generals) and officers nat. there were not one or two armies.

[Gopnik]

It is strange that among the front commanders "former officers of the pre-revolutionary army", even counting those who managed to get the rank of ensign, but did not manage to get combat experience on the WWII fronts in this rank, much less than 40%

[Koshnitsa]

that on June 21.06.1941, 40, among the Soviet generals, former officers of the pre-revolutionary army made up about 57%, and of the lieutenant generals - XNUMX%.
This is a lie, and some kind of inept children’s

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Zhukov and Tymoshenko - deviators without a military biography? You didn’t get anything wrong

[Koshnitsa]

And what did they participate in the battles of the WWII? And had awards?
And besides memoir nonsense, is there any evidence?

[Koshnitsa]

During the war in the Red Army, at various times 448 former RIA officers served
This is all that remains of the 330 thousandth officer corps.
Well, compare with the Germans and the British.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Not 448, but more than 515.

[zenion]

And all the tsarist officers were young and did not resign. They served until 120 years. I know one of these by the name of Gut. Which served under the king in dragoons and guard detachment of the king. After the king renounced, they spat, and there were about 200 of them, all in officer ranks and went to the front. What was the leadership of the tsarist army they knew well. Then they served already under the interim government. Then, after all, all who remained alive from this detachment transferred to the Red Army already in the roles of commanders. In 1939, he retired in old age and received a good pension, as he said, for his long service. When the Great Patriotic War began, he asked to return to the army, but he was refused this. So he prepared sabotage units. And once, in order for future commanders of sabotage detachments to gain the necessary experience, He headed 50 Germans in August to the rear of the Germans. There he showed them in practice how and what to do. Then they returned and he received the Order of Lenin for this campaign. He taught others to be field leaders and send them to the rear. So, how could people at the age of 60 continue to serve at the forefront, years and health was already different. But Gut was a healthy man under two meters and already at 75 he could raise a guy weighing 60 kilos with one hand.

[Gopnik]

Quote: zenion

And all the tsarist officers were young and did not resign. They served until 120 years.

120 is not 120, but a junior officer with combat and command experience of the PMV in 1941 would have been a little more than 40 years old. Those. most generals were supposed to be junior WWI officers, but it wasn’t

[Koshnitsa]

Some left as a hero of defense of Sakhalin and Port Arthur, Lieutenant Maximov, who served in the Red Army in the Civil War.
In 1936 he retired and was shot in 1937 "for anti-Soviet activities."

[Olgovich]

Quote: EvilLion

but did Stalin do this in Europe and the USA, and especially in Japan, no one is planning to give birth to 10 children each, or is this a natural process when moving from a village with wild child mortality to a developed urban civilization?

Population density in Europe and Japan a hundred years ago 180-260 people / km2, in Russia-9,5 person / km2 (in the European part 22 people / km2), i.e. TWENTY TIME LESS. Them nowhere there was more to grow even then and villages turned into cities.
In Russia was where to grow and the Russian rural and urban population that it successfully and didAsking not only Siberia, Far East, but also Central Asia and the Caucasus.

So far, experimenters who did not know how and did not understand arrived who led to a demographic catastrophe in the 30s and to the Russian Cross a little later.

Result: in 1991, the density in Russia 8,5 person / km2-those. lessthan a hundred years ago! I-sparsely populated expanses of Siberia and the Far East, the endangered Non-Black Earth region.

What is the density of the surrounding neighbors, everyone can see for himself. And to think, THAN it threatens ....

PS In Western Europe there was no mention tens of thousands dead villages, as in Russia, there these villages turned to the cities.

[Andrey VOV]

Western Europe over the 20th century has not lost as many people as Russia due to wars, this factor also cannot be discounted.

[Gopnik]

Yes, for this I must also say "thanks" to the Bolsheviks - the people overstrained

[zenion]

Under Hitler, they certainly would have prospered. Although Hitler had a program of emasculating women and men. First, in 5-10 years, destroy the Slavs to the right amount, without which they could not do. And then make them incapable of procreation. But free Bavarian beer compensated for all the shortcomings and could be finished after the pig, if she could not drink everything. Well, at least read a little historical books that write about Hitler’s plans. This was not a secret.

[Gopnik]

Who are they"? Under Hitler, the people of his own country did not die out as actively as the Russians under the Bolsheviks.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Olgovich

The population density in Europe and Japan a hundred years ago is 180-260 people / km2, in Russia-9,5 people / km2 (in the European part 22 people / km2), i.e. TWENTY TIME LESS. They had nowhere to grow even then and the villages turned into cities.

Oh, Olgovich, what did you not mention about the USA? (US population density, at the beginning of the 20th century = 7,728 people / km2.) Well, they did not breed like rabbits? Did the bloody scoop also interfere?

Quote: Olgovich

In Russia there was much room for growth for the Russian rural and urban population, which it successfully did, populating not only Siberia, the Far East, but also Central Asia and the Caucasus.

Yes of course!!! Everything was as it should be !!! After all, the effect called "Demographic Transition" acts only on the basis of correct, blaarod, Euro-American, democratic values ​​!!! And stupid, Russian untermensches should, like hamsters, multiply at a breakneck speed, until they fill up all the free space available to them, even unsuitable for life! Yes, Olgovich? Pace ischo! "An anti-Soviet is always a Russophobe" (c). And you, Olgovich, are a good example of this.

[Olgovich]

Quote: HanTengri

What

Go away from me, I'm with foul language I do not communicate, disdain.

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: HanTengri

And stupid, Russian non-women must, like hamsters, multiply at a frantic speed, until they fill everything available to them, free space, even unsuitable for life!

You wrote it. Neither Olgovich, nor any other monarchist, such nonsense would even occur to him.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Trapper7

You wrote it. Neither Olgovich, nor any other monarchist, such nonsense would even occur to him.

Naturally! Olgovichoobraznye, in general, rarely think about what kind of nonsense they, at times, carry. And when this nonsense is taken out of a beautiful wrapper and exposed, namely, nonsense, in the brains of sectarians, from the Sect of the Witnesses Nicholas the 2nd Genius (for it is difficult to call you monarchists), cognitive dissonance arises. You, Dmitry, expressed discomfort in your comment.

[EwgenyZ]

Quote: HanTengri

Naturally! Olgovichoobraznye, in general, rarely think about what kind of nonsense they, at times, carry. And when this nonsense is taken out of a beautiful wrapper and exposed, namely, nonsense

Nonsense, speak. Okay, nonsense. Those. country, population growth, in which it was on the rise, and according to estimates of demographers at the end of the century should have reached 600 million. man is nonsense. But the current situation with the demographic "pit" is not nonsense? Not? At the time of the collapse of the Union, a little more than 300 million people lived on its territory and adjacent states and territories, at the will of the Bolsheviks that became independent and ceded to other countries. To ruin the country twice in a century, this is an achievement, and most importantly, not nonsense. Continue to believe in a fantasy called "Bright Future". The history of you and your fellow minds teaches nothing.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: EwgenyZ

Those. a country whose population growth was on the rise, and according to the estimates of demographers at the end of the century, should have reached 600 million. man is nonsense.

Yes, nonsense. Search the net for serious articles on the topic: "Demographic Transition". Maybe something in the "pumpkin" will clear up. And, yes, the names of these "demographers" can be, with the names of scientific papers? Are they, by any chance, not from a glorious cohort of well-known "British scientists"?

[Vadim237]

Which neighbors have China? 94% of the total population is grouped along the coast and they are not going to move from there.

[Dedrusav]

53% of tsarist officers crossed the red banner, this is statistics.

[Koshnitsa]

Whose statistics? Prudnikoff or Volksdeutch Goblin

[marline]

Quote: Nikolay S.

When the king did not run so shamefully.

Yes, completeness to you. They ran worse with the king than with the advice.
73 of RIA general surrendered for FDA. In WWII - 78 generals of the Red Army (of which 2 people are in question, because their fate is not fully understood). Now look at the size of the armies and calculate the percentage.

[Koshnitsa]

In RIA the number of generals was much larger, 4-5 people per division, and in the Red Army divisions were commanded by colonels. And your numbers are very arbitrary, in the first months of 41, 120 Soviet generals were captured. Such are the things.

[Koshnitsa]

After the capture of Warsaw, the Germans announced the capture of 70 Russian generals, then fell silent, it turned out they were retired old men of 80-90 years who did not evacuate, quietly released them.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

After the capture of Warsaw, the Germans announced the capture of 70 Russian generals

What are the Xnumx Elders? You seem to rave ...

[Koshnitsa]

The retirees who still defended Sevastopol. They did not evacuate for a number of reasons.
They were arrested, taken to a concentration camp, Kaiser propaganda shouted about the great Victory, then even the Germans were ashamed and returned the old men to their homes.
I advise you, darling, to change your tone. And then you will go into a rage and begin to be rude to others, as in the VO forum. And they will punish you, as it happens in real life

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

The retirees who still defended Sevastopol. They did not evacuate for a number of reasons.

I understood it. And here they are? That you mix everything in a heap.

Quote: Koshnitsa

I advise you, darling, to change the tone. And then you will enter into a rage and begin to be rude to others, as in the VO forum. And they will punish you, as it happens in real life.

Thanks for the advice, of course, but there’s something with you that somehow doesn’t want to change the tone. Respect - you still have to earn it.

[Koshnitsa]

The Germans declared prisoners of war and old pensioners, who rose to the rank of generals.
In Warsaw alone, 70 people were removed from a pot and a wheelchair.
So earn respect, try.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

The Germans declared prisoners of war and old pensioners, who rose to the rank of generals.

I brought a number to the 73 combat general.
Put your fantasies about the elders with you.

Quote: Koshnitsa

So earn respect, try.

At the schoolboy? I'm not out of my mind yet

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

In RIA, the number of generals was much larger

And you cross out the civilian generals and get about the same.

Quote: Koshnitsa

And your numbers are very arbitrary, in the first months of the 41 year, 120 Soviet generals were captured. Such are the things.

61 people for 1941 year. And nothing conditional.

[Koshnitsa]

And in RI there were no civilians who wore generals.
61 people in 1941. And nothing conditional. // And there is 120 data for three months.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

And in RI there were no civilians who wore generals.

I say, learn history.

Quote: Koshnitsa

And there is 120 data for three months.

Present.

[Koshnitsa]

The civilian ranks were absent from the courtiers and from the right hand and from the mountain.
Show. / / Bunich writes, refute in the operation "Thunderstorm".

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Show. / / Bunich writes, refute in the operation "Thunderstorm".

Bunich Igor Lvovich (September 28, 1937 - June 15, 2000) - Russian writer and publicist. He gained fame thanks to works in the genre of political journalism and folk history. Also the author of popular historical books on the naval theme. http://www.koob.ru/bunich/

You mean this Bunich? Yes? Now, try to prove that his "Operation Thunderstorm. Bloody games of dictators" is not a work of style folk history!

[Koshnitsa]

Yes, I will not argue if officially 78 people were captured.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

And your numbers are very arbitrary, in the first months of the 41 year, 120 Soviet generals were captured. Such are the things.

Quote: merlin

Present.

Yes, I will not argue ...

The drain is counted.

[Beringovsky]

Bunich is lying. Not serious. Himmler still remember.

[Koshnitsa]

Bunich’s lies are merely a response to many decades of Soviet lies.
Stalin generally spoke of the seven million dead, then the numbers began to grow.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Bunich writes, refute in the operation "Thunderstorm".

Is fiction history taught at your school? Do you go through physics according to Herbert Wells?

[EwgenyZ]

Quote: merlin

Yes, completeness to you. They ran worse with the king than with the advice.

Yah! Is it possible about French or Swedish analogue of ROA?
Surrender is one thing, and knowingly going to serve the enemy is another. Do not distort.

[sunzhenets]

EwgenyZ (Eugene) Today, 16:33 NEW
Is it possible about French or Swedish analogue of ROA?

Please, about French.
in the summer of 1941, at a meeting of the leaders of these parties, it was decided to create a Legion of French volunteers. There was a meeting on July 7, and a recruiting center had already opened on 8.
In two weeks - 8 volunteers. 000 from the occupied zone, 5 from the Vichy zone.
Of these 8, 000 French regiments were selected in 638 as part of the Wehrmacht, 3 soldiers.
They sent them to the Eastern Front. While traveling, about 500 soldiers and officers froze from the cold and fell ill.
December 1, 1941 - baptism of fire at the village of Dyakovo. We went on the attack without artillery preparation of tanks at position 32 of the Saratov Red Banner Division. The result is a little predictable. December 6, they are led to the rear. Losses - 65 killed, 420 wounded and sick. In 1 battalion, 3 out of 4 company commanders were out of order.
Further ordinary German bureaucratic turmoil. The regiment is divided, combined, formed, reformatted, and so on. They even formed a company from the Arabs. In June 1942, they were thrown into Belarus against the partisans, where the regiment suffered "heavy losses." Which ones are unknown.
In total, from July 1941 to May 1943, 6 people passed through the regiment. The exact losses, as always, are unknown.
The creation of this regiment, I recall, is a private initiative of right-wing politicians. Unlike recruitment in the SS.
The French in the SS
Already on May 1, 84 Germans, French citizens and 8 French, joined the SS.
The recruitment took place informally, of course. But July 22, 1943 Vichy officially allowed to serve as volunteers in the SS troops.
And by August 18, 1943, about 1 tried to join the French SS regiment, but about 500 people were accepted.
Then the regiment was renamed the 57 Grenadier Regiment of the SS (French No. 1) - 1 people.
In July 1944, the regiment was deployed to the SS France volunteer assault brigade. The first battalion of this brigade was transferred to Galicia in early August - 18 officers and 1 soldiers and non-commissioned officers. By the end of August, 000 fighters and 140 officers remained in the battalion.
In September 1944, all French volunteers from all military branches were transferred to the SS.
Thus appeared the 33th Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne.
Read more - "The French in the Wehrmacht", Alexey Ivakin. Http://www.pomnivoinu.ru/home/reports/1844/

[sunzhenets]

The Swedes are actually out of place here, because Sweden did not participate in the war. But also noted.
Even during the Soviet-Finnish war of 1939, 9000 volunteers went to fight in Finland as part of the Swedish Volunteer Corps.
In the summer of 1941, when Finland attacked the Soviet Union for the third time, this corps again went to fight as part of the Finnish armed forces - 12000 soldiers. Yes, it was the third time — the first two times were in 1918 and 1921.
In addition to this corps, the Swedes fought in the SS troops.
Of course, the numbers are not impressive. So, by May 4, 1940, only three volunteers served in the SS. And by 1942 - 39 people.
In 1944, several hundred (the exact number is unknown) moved from the Finnish army to the SS. So, in Pomerania, near the city of Vulkov, two Swedish companies suffered heavy losses from Soviet artillery fire. 31 Swedes were captured, the rest took refuge in the Swedish consulate.
13 people served in the Wehrmacht, 2 in Kriegsmarine, 4 in the Luftwaffe.
Trade with Germany. The Swedes made their gesheft ...
This is 58 million tons of iron ore, 60 thousand tons of bearings, 7 million tons of pulp, 13 million cubic meters of wood, 70 thousand tons of machinery and equipment.
40% of German armored vehicles were made of Swedish steel.
LKAB supplied the Nazis with iron and copper ore;
SKF and VKF - bearings (VKF - a branch of SKF in Germany);
Asea, Atlas, Atlas Copco, Electrolux, Ericsson, Husqvarna, Sandvik, Volvo - machinery and equipment;
Bofors - weapons and ammunition;
SCA, Swedish Match - pulp and paper products, tobacco products.
In 1941, Sweden allowed the transit of the 163rd German infantry division in its entirety to Finland.
Vacationers from Norway and Finland also traveled to Germany and back via Sweden
From here: Swedes in the Wehrmacht and the SS, Alexey Ivakin http://www.pomnivoinu.ru/home/reports/1848/

[Koshnitsa]

12000 fighters is about as much as it took to the war from one area.

[Rastas]

You yourself are all mixed up in a bunch. Where will city residents give birth to 9-12 children? Where to live with them? In a 3-room? Then, a large number of children had a completely mundane goal under them - to receive additional allotment. my ancestors by mother are Cossacks from the Kuban and Terek. They had 2-3 children in their families with the king; donning this did not increase. Read how Lenin’s grandfather left the serfs with V. Loginov in his first book on Lenin. It doesn't smell like a social elevator. As, by the way, and in other cases. Turgenev described this in the images of officers in the village who received freedom for not too attractive activities.

[Koshnitsa]

receipt of additional allotment. my ancestors by mother are Cossacks from the Kuban and Terek. They had 2-3 children in their families with the king, it didn’t increase the allotment. // You cheat or confuse. For each young Cossack, he stood out from 16 years old so that he was going to serve.

[Rastas]

I did not give it to my family. Have we been here for 16 years? Especially if the girls are still born.

[Koshnitsa]

See the allotment stood out for a male Cossack from 16 years old, from the reserve stanitsa fund. Is it clear now? Somewhere it could be 30 acres, somewhere 6-8, if we are talking about the Kuban.

[Fitter65]

Quote: Nikolai S.

Tell me, is it right now that a child from a peasant family with ten children really get a quality higher education?

Right now, even one is problematic, although under the Soviet regime such problems did not arise. Especially when the collective farm was interested in obtaining its specialist, young people went to universities and other educational institutions in a variety of ways, by itself if the young man expressed a desire. so the scholarships from collective farms were not bad for them. Yes, and upon graduation, other preferences were issued. and young people, in many cases, after an agreed period, remained in their native village or village.

[EwgenyZ]

Quote: Fitter65

Right now, even one is problematic, although under the Soviet regime such problems did not arise.

Aha did not arise. Have you seen a lot of large families under Soviet rule? I remember only one such in our neighborhood with three children (and even then they lived poorly), usually one, maximum two ("so as not to produce a collective farm").
I grew up alone, now my mother asks why she did not give birth to my brother or sister, refers to what she raised, and when I ask why Her friends, in complete families, also one at a time, duck used to be so, says. So it is not necessary that everything was different under the USSR, the current situation is a direct result of the activities of the Soviet government, whether you like it or not!

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Large - where are three children and more? Under Soviet rule, I saw the following:
1. Neighbors (in the private sector within a radius of 120 m.): Three families of three children, one of them is a single mother, consecutively giving birth to three husbands, one family - seven.
2. Classmates - two families of three, one - three or four, one - five.

"Do not produce a collective farm" - I have never heard this. I heard "not to breed poverty", but this is already the formula of the 1990s.

[Koshnitsa]

since 1960, Russians have lost the reproduction of the population. In Asia and the Caucasus, peoples were still multiplying.

[Nick_R]

Wonderful review turned into the last refuge of the Stalinists. It is simply disgusting to read articles in which millions of our grandfathers, great-grandfathers and their brothers and sisters are called traitors and scoundrels, "justly" shot, exiled, deprived of their homes and property. I see no reason to appeal to such people to reason or conscience, they do not believe in God, so the worms and time will pass their judgment on them.

[Rastas]

Broadcast like a political instructor. Less saliva. My grandfather was dispossessed, but he was a small fist, they were resettled from Kirovograd to the Zaporizhzhya region, before the war they were allowed to return. True, the grandfather had great hatred for fists larger, for they had repeatedly tried to take his household to his hands. And even more so, he never considered them for brothers and did not regret their fate.

[L cornelius sulla]

And what do you want from the Stalinists, people who want to be voluntarily slaves to the dictator, in which the peasants did not have any partitions, in which genetics was declared pseudoscience.
Do not forget that even one of the founders of the RSDLP, Alexander Potresov, after the October coup began to call the policy of the Bolsheviks "socialism of fools" and "the power of the oligarchic clique." And under Stalin, all this only worsened.
And why is it worth the fact that ALL (I emphasize ALL) people's commissars of internal affairs were enemies of the people.)
Leadership has always been a disaster for any political trend, and Stalinism is leaderism brought to the point of absurdity.
The Stalinists like to blame democracy for everything, but we did not have real democracy (with the exception of the times 1-4 Duma, which can be called democratic for a stretch, and which these citizens did not find). There was and is an oligarchy of (post-) Soviet leaders.
The Stalinists love "friendship of peoples", but friendship is always directed against the Russians: for example, the Ukrainization of the 1930s is the basis of the current dill (which they so love to call ukrreich, but in reality it is ukrUganda of the times of Amin, which was not so difficult would even crush, if the post-Soviet crypto-Stalinist leadership of the erefia would have enough will to become Russians, and not remain scoops).
They understand even the idea of ​​socialism, as in that joke:
In 1917, the Decembrist’s granddaughter hears a noise on the street and sends a servant to find out what is the matter.
Soon, the servant returns:
- There is a revolution, mistress!
- Oh revolution! It's great! My grandfather was also a revolutionary! And what do they want?
“They want the rich not to be.”
- It’s strange ... And my grandfather wanted no poor people

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: L Cornelius Sulla

-2
And what do you want from the Stalinists, people who want to be voluntarily slaves to the dictator, in which the peasants did not have any partitions, in which genetics was declared pseudoscience.

And before the revolution did the peasants have passports?
You don't know everything about genetics either. Repeat the myths of 80-90

[L cornelius sulla]

We look at the photo of the passport and see .. the peasant.

[trahterist]

And again this nonsense about the lack of passports ...
My grandfather, his sister and wife had passports, from Stalin's time.
Stop brazenly lying already !!

[gsev]

But you cannot refute such a truth that the removal of the Communists from power plunged the Russians into a demographic hole from which they still cannot get out. There was nothing similar in the history of Russia. Even in the Great Patriotic War in 1944, the population of the USSR began to grow. The Russian population has been declining since 1992, under Yeltsin very quickly, under Putin it is slower, and there is more depopulation among the educated layers.

[Looking for]

Ei balabol. Can you pronounce the surname of the pradel-artist? By the way. Until 1991 we all fought for the USSR and not for Russia., Ukraine, Kazakhstan, etc. In one word, BALABOL !!!

[Koshnitsa]

Well, how did they fight in 1991?

[Beringovsky]

They fought well, so the USSR had to be destroyed from the inside, with the help of traitors. Because they couldn’t do it outside.

[kalibr]

But Merika with the help of traitors failed to destroy ... But what kind of KPA was there ...

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: kalibr

0
But Merika with the help of traitors failed to destroy ... But what kind of KPA was there ...

Enough to be sarcastic, don't you know that the members of the CPA were not allowed into the governing bodies of the state? Forgot about the "witch hunt"?

[gsev]

If Russia today had hundreds of reports of how heartless policemen kill innocent drug dealers and thieves, they would be able to. 3 such reports caused riots in the black towns of the United States. Another thing is that the intelligentsia of the United States is sane and for it the representative of a foreign agent is really an opponent of the motherland. And on the insane was Senator Macartney, the FBI and the Mafia.

[A.]

Thank you, write correctly.
An article, from the wind of someone's head, for those who do not know history. And if the ancestors were "kulaks" and you know what kind of people they were.

[nickname7]

a consequence of that time: instead of ten or twelve children, families began to give birth to one or two children.

These are the consequences of relocation to cities. In all developed countries, there was no Stalin, there was a decrease in family affairs among the townspeople. So, it is not Stalin who is to blame for the reduction of families, but urbanization.

[LeonidL]

NEP was introduced by Lenin, not Trotsky. Trotsky was just against it, advocating war communism. Stalin, by the way, was also for the NEP. And to believe the testimony of the inmates of the Lubyanka ... They drowned each other verbally, but real, physical evidence - zero. They beat Primakov well, and he carried a blizzard to everyone he knew ... there, apart from verbal accusations, there is not a single physical fact (secret writing, encryption, documents, walkie-talkies, etc.). For example, as "evidence" of the guilt of the military leaders, they again cited, verbally, their flights to negotiations with Hitler in neutral countries on airplanes, but ... nowhere and never was this recorded, but in reality people were in completely different places. I do not exclude that there may have been chatter in a close circle, but there was no real military conspiracy, and it could not be. Only now the investigation willingly swallowed such "evidence". there were a lot of slips of the tongue for very mundane motives - to get a room in an apartment, a position, a woman, revenge, envy, etc. there everything is not so simple and it is clear why Stalin eventually shot Yezhov and quieted zealous figures from the NKVD, practically sending them to paths of their own persons under investigation.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Declarant

And yet, Stalin acted very short-sightedly, destroying the NEP.

The victory of the NEP meant the disappearance of the power of the Bolsheviks and the inevitable transfer of power to the people.

In addition, it turned out that Yenukidze is a sexual pervert. Part of the family circle of Stalin Maria Svanidze (wife of Alesha Svanidze, brother of the first wife of I. Stalin)

The author, apparently, does not know that the aforementioned Maria was Shot "anti-Soviet activities and terrorism" The same power that shot Yenukidze. Those. Is one "enemy of the people" more "authoritative" than another "enemy of the people"?

But in fact, most of the convicts were bandits, thieves, murderers, rapists and real "enemies of the people."

Need respect Legislation of the Russian Federation, who recognized the majority of the so-called. "enemies of the people" illegally repressed, rehabilitated and entitled to compensation.

And if it’s just humanly, I’d like to know who they were convicted of and what they were almost guilty of. million Russian children deported to the North peasants in 1930 / 33gg, in the huts from poleswhere they worked logging , crafts, etc.?

So in Russia in 1917-1918 years there was a peasant war, which was a significant part of the Russian unrest

. No, the war went on and on: until the 1930s, it was hot, and then, when the peasants by hook or by crook fled the village, not wanting to work hard and almost for free. .

As a result, Russia in the 1920s remained a weak, agrarian power, having no chance in confrontation with the West.

And how before this power Russia stood against the West in 1000 years and became the largest country in the world?
And with her, she squeezed to size 17th century?

[EvilLion]

No, the war went on and on: until 1930x was hot, and later, when the peasants fled the village by hook or by crook, not wanting to work hard and practically for free.

What pisses me off is that even my father, born in 1958, from the village, does not understand at all how wonderful it was when we plowed on horses and oxen. When there were no "stinking KAMAZ trucks" that are transporting 10 tons at a time. All of you who are talking about collectivization should be put to the plow, the beginning of the 20 of the 20th century, and see how you work on it for 10 on the day. After that, you will probably kiss each tractor wheels and caterpillars and give a prayer to 5 once a day to praise Vissarionych, who saved your grandfathers from such necessity by building them tractor plants and creating collective farms where the tractors are cost-effective.

It is necessary to introduce into the school curriculum "lessons on the right to brains" so that everyone can feel on their own skin what it was like in tsarist Russia and what it is like now, somewhere in Indian villages, where mechanization was not brought.

And how to this power, Russia stood up against the West during 1000 years and became the largest country in the world?

Because this ice desert was not needed by anyone. And from the 6 of modern giant states, 5 are completely uninhabitable wastelands in the vast majority of the territory, even China, and it is populated only on the coast. If you install a brain in an empty head and get acquainted with the history a little, you will see that the whole European expansion was directed a century towards the places where it is more pleasant to live and the British Empire surpassed Russia by area. And the Russian expansion was also sent not to Siberia, where some Dezhnev passed, put a flag, declared a territory, and no one objects, because there is no one around, but in the direction of a developed Europe, 1 sq. Km was more valuable than a thousand sq. km in the Far East.

If you also use the brain, it becomes clear that from the 18 of those century. progress accelerates, cars appear and as they improve, Russia turns out to be more and more on the periphery of civilization and, after defeating Napoleon, gradually loses its position, raking in the Crimean War, with difficulty defeating the Turks who had everything worse, ominously in Russian-Japanese failing the prom race. production in the WWI, which cost the Russian army 2 million lives. Do not believe, so you can even open the Wiki and see the prom. production in the years of WWI. A country can not be inferior to all several times the number of guns, tanks, aircraft, trucks produced to be somehow viable.

In the 15th century it was good to swing sabers, more or less, the same, although even then rather less, the cost of the equipment of the European war and the Russian, as soon as it comes to relatively massive armies, and not the prince and hundreds of thugs of the squad turns out to be strongly not in favor of the Russian. So the grandfathers, who "stood for 1000 years", turned around in the process of standing as best they could, and raked in the process many times. It's okay, still really powerful states like France did not directly border on us.

[Koshnitsa]

even my father, born in 1958 from the village, no longer understands how wonderful it was when he plowed on horses and oxen. // So they plowed themselves, and not Beria. Father is not able to understand the simplest difference? Well, then set his mind first.
A country that is several times inferior to everyone in the number of produced cannons, tanks, planes, and trucks cannot be somewhat viable. / / In the USSR, the piece of iron was several times larger than that of the German army, and the army scattered and surrendered. Nezhdanchik, sir! :-))
and completely failing the race prom. production in WWI, which cost the Russian army 2 million lives // 1 million lives, killing 2 million Austro-Germans.
In the Second World War, the Red Army lost 20 million lives, killing 4 million Germans and their allies.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

So they plowed themselves, and not Beria.

Would not plow on Beria, would have to plow on Alloizycha.

Quote: Koshnitsa

In the USSR, the piece of iron was several times larger than that of the German.And the army fled and surrendered.

According to 1919. "Centrifugal", the total number of captured RIA soldiers - 3 people. Add 911 thousand deaths from wounds in captivity. This is 100 million mobilized.
For comparison, in WWII the number of prisoners was about 5 million per 35 million mobilized.
In general, shame and disgrace for the RIA.

Quote: Koshnitsa

1 million lives, killing 2 million Austro-Germans.

Lying again. However, I already wrote this to you once.

Quote: Koshnitsa

In the Second World War, the Red Army lost 20 million lives, killing 4 million Germans and their allies.

The losses of the Red Army - 10 million. And 4 million (or rather 5 million) - this is only the loss of Germany according to German calculations, without allies
So once again I will repeat my advice - TO SCHOOL TO LEARN THE HISTORY OF THE MARCH, THE BOYS!

[Koshnitsa]

Who cares? Both were sent to consumption :-))
According to 1919. "Centrifugal", the total number of captured RIA soldiers - 3 911 100 people. // With internees and refugees. Military personnel 2 million 100 thousand. More opponents were taken prisoner.
1 million lives, killing 2 million Austro-Germans. // knew how to fight, because.
35 million were drafted into the Red Army, 15 million received a medal for "Victory over Germany", 20 million did not return home, this is without militias and partisans.
About 4 million losses of Germany and allies on the Eastern Front. Because there were also other fronts.
And I need to be rude, look ugly from the side.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Who cares?

Well, this will be explained to you in Khotyn.

Quote: Koshnitsa

With internees and refugees.

Not. Captured Russian servicemen

Quote: Koshnitsa

35 million were drafted into the Red Army, 15 million received a medal for "Victory over Germany", 20 million did not return home, this is without militias and partisans.

And the medal "Twenty Years of Victory in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945" was awarded to 16,5 million people. According to your logic, 1,5 million people were resurrected? After 20 years of war?
Do you ever think or write right away?

Quote: Koshnitsa

About 4 million losses of Germany and allies on the Eastern Front. Because there were also other fronts.

8 649 200 million total losses of the Axis countries on the eastern front.

[Koshnitsa]

No. Captured Russian servicemen // You are wrong again. The name of the organization is "Centrifugal", think what the word bezh, root means.
There, Roman Gul was already listed as Prince Avalov and Skoropadsky, the hetman and the mass of refugees and internees. Approximately one and a half million soldiers were captured in Germany, and 600 thousand in other countries.
And the medal "Twenty Years of Victory in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945" was awarded to 16,5 million people // And there the statutes are different, the jubilee medal was awarded to anyone, including conscripts for 1965.
But "For the victory over Germany" only the participants of the Great Patriotic War, including those who served in the rear for six months, stood on watchtowers, in warehouses and so on.
20 million did not receive this medal, and did not return from the war. Without partisans and militias, by the way.
8 649 200 million total losses of the Axis countries on the eastern front. // Total losses are killed, wounded, prisoners, sick.
And we are talking about the dead.
You will deal with the general losses and with the dead.
Once again, I advise you not to be rude, I just will not communicate with you.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

The name of the organization is "Centrifugal", think what the word bezh, root means.

They counted 3,9 million. "captured Russian servicemen".
Okay, ok. The root is beige. Then let's look at the figures of such an organization as "Centrifuge". Is there a root beige? What does she tell us? And that there were no 2 million captured Germans and Austrians declared by you, but there were refugees ... after all, the root beige!!!

Quote: Koshnitsa

But "For the victory over Germany" only the participants of the Great Patriotic War, including those who served in the rear for six months, stood on watchtowers, in warehouses and so on.

Okay, if you yourself are too lazy to think, then I will probably be the captain of Evidence.
The medal “For the victory over Germany in the Great Patriotic War 1941 — 1945” was awarded to:
- all military personnel and civilian employees, directly involved in the ranks of the Red Army, Navy and NKVD troops on the fronts of World War II or providing victory with their work in military districts;
- all military personnel and civilian employees who served during the Great Patriotic War in the ranks of the active Red Army, Navy and NKVD troops, but dropped out of them due to injury, illness and injury, as well as transferred by decision of state and party organizations to other work outside the army.
Those. the medal "For Victory over Germany" was suddenly awarded for a victory over Germany. And here, for example, the medal "For the victory over Japan" for the victory over Japan. By the way, the last award was given out to 1,9 million pieces. But the holders of these two medals are 0,7 million people at the same time.

Quote: Koshnitsa

Once again, I advise you not to be rude, I just will not communicate with you.

Well, then what am I upset about and will be sad, and you will be counted drain.

[Gopnik]

Quote: merlin

They counted 3,9 million "captured Russian servicemen."

only the Germans and Austrians themselves counted 2,4 captured Russian troops

Quote: merlin

Okay, if you yourself are too lazy to think, then I will probably be the captain of Evidence.
The medal “For the victory over Germany in the Great Patriotic War 1941 — 1945” was awarded to:
...
Those. the medal "For Victory over Germany" was suddenly awarded for a victory over Germany.

And what do you refute with this vast quote ??? Koshnitsa wrote so - they mobilized 35 million, and awarded 15 million survivors, including and retired from the army

[marline]

Quote: Gopnik

only the Germans and Austrians themselves counted 2,4 captured Russian troops

Did this one grandmother tell you? Infa 100%?

Quote: Gopnik

Koshnitsa wrote so - they mobilized 35 million, and awarded 15 million survivors, including and retired from the army

15 million survivors awarded and fought with Germany. Not everyone who was called and who did not die and was held captive was awarded this medal - is it really that such a simple thought is so difficult for you to understand?

[Koshnitsa]

And that there were no 2 million captive Germans and Austrians claimed by you, but there were refugees ... after all, the root was beige !!! // Well, they didn’t flee from Germany to Russia, there was almost no war there. who fled, then inside Germany.
From the territory of AB fled units of Ruthenian activists.
In addition, hundreds of thousands, some Germans alone, more than 100 thousand returned to their homeland after the Brest Peace and joined the armies of their countries.
According to the supplement to the Regulation on the medal, approved by the decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of 05.07.1945, the medal "For the victory over Germany in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945." the personnel of the bodies of the People’s Commissariat of Internal Affairs and the People’s Commissariat of State Security of the USSR were also awarded [
Vertukhaev was not forgotten.
For six months there, it was enough to sit in Baku or Tashkent, or who provided victory with their work in the military districts; (including civilian employees)
By the way, the last award was issued 1,9 million. But the cavaliers of these two medals are at the same time 0,7 million people. // Medal "For Victory Over Japan" immediately after the war awarded about 1.725.000 soldiers and officers [38]. A certain number of medals were awarded in subsequent years to persons who for some reason did not manage to get the medal earlier.

The total number of people awarded the medal “For the victory over Japan” is about 1.800.000 people.
A source about the cavaliers of two medals. Prove. It does not fit in any way. So you want to say that those who were drafted into the army after November 9, 1944 fought with the Japanese? Doesn't fit.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Well, from the territory of Germany they didn’t flee en masse to Russia, there was almost no war there. And who fled inside Germany.

According to your logic, there were 2 million refugees, because the Center counted thembeige.

Quote: Koshnitsa

think what the word beige means, root.

Think, think, it will be useful to you.

Quote: Koshnitsa

A source about the cavaliers of two medals. Prove.

Search. After all, are you taught in school to search, or not already?

Quote: Koshnitsa

That is, you want to say that those who were drafted into the army after the November 9 of the 1944 year fought with the Japanese?

That is, I want to say that Japan was also at war with those who, since the 41 year, have served in the Far East and for this reason have not fought with Nazi Germany.

[Koshnitsa]

Those. the medal "For Victory over Germany" was suddenly awarded for the victory over Germany // To everyone who was drafted into the army and served there for six months on May 9, 1945.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

To everyone who was drafted into the army and served there for six months on May 9 of 1945 year.

Read carefully in bold.

[VVK_VDB]

hehe, 4 (four) million Germans? In March 45, 29 was drafted into the German army, that is, sixteen-year-olds were drafted. For reference, the Reich population is about 100 million.

[Koshnitsa]

For reference, the Reich population is about 100 million. // Write a billion, as in China.

[sunzhenets]

Quote: Koshnitsa

in WWII, the Red Army lost 20 million lives, killing 4 million Germans and their allies

Are these figures put into your head by aliens, or did Solzhenitsyn personally teach you the story?

[Koshnitsa]

There are calculations, see above Sunzhenz.

[goose]

It should be added that during the period of collectivization MTO bases were created, and the USSR was in first place in the world in the number of tractors produced.

[kalibr]

But for some reason 40% of the population was engaged in hard physical labor!

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: kalibr

But for some reason 40% of the population was engaged in hard physical labor!

Sore again. But didn’t you study abroad?

[Koshnitsa]

Dzhugashvili invented the tractor, khe-khe, the tractors were produced in the Republic of Ingushetia, at least at the 4 plants from the 1916 year, actually, but it’s hard for you to understand.

[your1970]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Dzhugashvili invented the tractor, khe-khe, the tractors were produced in the Republic of Ingushetia, at least at the 4 plants from the 1916 year, actually, but it’s hard for you to understand.

and most importantly, their number is comparable with the number of aircraft produced aircraft ....
10 pieces per year ...

[Koshnitsa]

Tuapse plant produced 10 pieces in February of the 17th year, gave the first products.

[Olgovich]

Quote: EvilLion

What me infuriates,

In such a condition .....

Quote: EvilLion

All of you who are talking about collectivization should be put to the plow, the beginning of the 20 of the 20th century, and see how you work on it for 10 on the day. After that, you will probably kiss each tractor wheels and caterpillars and give a prayer to 5 once a day to praise Vissarionych, who saved your grandfathers from such necessity by building them tractor plants and creating collective farms where the tractors are cost-effective.

In All over the world tractors and fords, also thanks to the Bolsheviks appeared? ,
And they saved the peasants from the RESULTS of their work, imposing them with a DUTY (as the Secretary General put it), while allowing MILLIONS of their starvation deaths (unprecedented in the world famine catastrophe 1932-33).
"Efficient" collective farms have achieved grain yields 1913 and MILITARY 1915 g only to ...1956 g (except 1937).
To the same 1950 reached the level of consumption of 1913 food and clothing

Quote: EvilLion

Because this ice desert nobody needed for nothing

This desert is in the heads who do not know the History of Russia and how many HUNDREDS of times it fought for its "useless" deserts "

Quote: EvilLion

If you install in empty head brain and,

I do not have access to your head, and it’s unpleasant

Quote: EvilLion

But Russian expansion was also directed not to Siberia,

Quote: EvilLion

Do not believe me, so you can even open Wiki and see the prom. production during the years of WWII.

the rise of the heavy industry of the Russian Empire, which occurred during the First World War, until the February Revolution, was fantastic.
In just three war years (1914-1916), the products of the chemical industry grew 2,52 times (from 337,7 to 853,5 million royal gold rubles in 1913 prices), metal processing - 3,01 times (from 628,1, 1888,4 to 1913 million rubles in 4,76 prices), engineering - 200,2 times (from 954,6 to 1913 million rubles, also in XNUMX prices). .
ROSLO industrial production in Russia, unlike other warring countries

Quote: EvilLion

So the grandfathers who stood for 1000 years.

They not only survived (without quotes), but built the BIGGEST and BEST country in the world. But the next government, without a fight, without a war, yielded the fruits of military and peaceful labor of many generations of the Russian people, establishing today's western and southern border of Russia.

[Gopnik]

And how is it in the damned West on tractors plowed in the absence of collective farms? It is incomprehensible to the mind ... And so in the Second World War and the first years after plowing on collective farms not on tractors, but on women - equipment and men were taken into the army.
And Russia was not inferior to "all several times" in the production of tanks, aircraft and, moreover, guns.

[Rastas]

Read Stabek "The Grapes of Wrath" as farmers went bankrupt in the 30s. And how they fought for survival, turning into homeless people, moving from state to state.

[Gopnik]

Yeah, it's better to go broke in 30's than die of hunger, like in the USSR

[Rastas]

So they died of hunger in America. Read The Grapes of Wrath.

[Koshnitsa]

Hunger died in the USSR. Millions of it.
And in the "Grapes of Wrath" they bought cars and left.

[Rastas]

They left, and what happened to them in the end? How does the novel end? How much has arrived and where?

[Koshnitsa]

In California, and arrived, someone drowned.
This film was banned in the Stalinist USSR.

[Rastas]

And where does the movie? He was removed from the show just for the fact that he disagrees radically with the idea of ​​the book and its plot. In the film at the end of a happy end, and in the book - tragedy.

[naidas]

Just why there was no publication about American hunger, and there was an article for anti-American activity, it is still not known how many in the USA died of hunger.
Only Reagan apologized for such a small thing as the creation of concentration camps on a national basis.

[your1970]

Quote: Gopnik

Yeah, it's better to go broke in 30's than die of hunger, like in the USSR

-Because in Ukraine, the constant embarrassment of the mouth of the posted photos- they want to show the Holodomor, but they show the American Great Depression ....

[naidas]

Yeah, American labor camps are better than the Gulag, executions of the national guard are better than Soviet executions, and hunger riots in the US are better than Soviet ones.
Sole farmers were defeated by farmers (collective farms), and farmers were defeated by agricultural holdings.

[Koshnitsa]

American labor camps, where did they pay per month, as much as a collective farmer a year? Horror.

[naidas]

Do not forget that the collective farmer had his own farm, and the American had $ 5 per month a month to pay off debts.

[sunzhenets]

Already we got these liberoid cries about the famine organized by the Bolsheviks. In the early 30s there was a lot of hunger. Have you heard about the climatic factor?
Poland, 30s:
Polish newspaper "New Hour": "In the Hutsul region, the number of starving farms in 1932 reached 88,6%. The property of the Polish landowners in these years reached 37% in the Stanislavsky Voivodeship, 49% in Polesie. On landowner lands, even in lean years, peasants worked for the 16th or 18th sheaf. In March, about 40 villages of Kosivsky, 12 villages of Naddvirnyansky and 10 villages of Kolomyia districts were completely starving. The newspaper notes: “People swell with hunger and die on the go. Famine is especially fierce in the villages - Perekhresnya, Old Gvizdtsy, Ostrovtsi. Typhoid fever and tuberculosis quickly spread with hunger. ” Until 1929, 16000 families of Polish military and civilian colonists were resettled from Poland to the Hutsul region. They transferred 600284 hectares of Hutsul land. ” Cor. O. Travsky. In another issue of “New Hour”, in the correspondence “Report from the Hutsul Region”, the correspondent writes: “Sorry, Hutsul brothers, I did not believe your stories about the devastated villages as“ king-hunger ”, but now I have been convinced in Kolomyia. The hungry population of Western Ukraine suffered and national oppression of Poland: if a resident of Krakow Voivodeship paid 30 zlotys per capita tax, then a resident of Western Ukraine 35 zlotys. The Carpathian forests are predatoryly cut down by the colonists.

Romania, the same time:
HUNGER IN ROMANIA. "Proletar." 09.04.32/1933/XNUMX, In Romania and Yugoslavia, severe flooding, causing great damage, there are human casualties. Many casualties in Bessarabia, especially in the Forty. The railway connection between Chisinau and Bucharest, as well as between Bukovina and Poland was interrupted. April XNUMX Romanian, Austrian, Hungarian and Ukrainian newspapers reported mass mortality due to hunger in boyar Romania.

Vein. January 09.01.32, XNUMX. The Bessarabian Post newspaper, published in Russian in Chisinau, wrote: "Bessarabia has survived two hungry years in the past five years."

Vein. 07.11.32/100/XNUMX, the "Dimineac". From Bucharest, they say: “Hunger riots in Chisinau do not stop. In November, bread prices increased by XNUMX%, however, it disappeared from the market. A crowd of several hundred people stormed the bakery; it was dispersed by the police, there are wounded. In Tekinshite leprosy patients fled from the hospital because they were not given food for a week, they went on a hungry campaign to Bucharest, and gendarmerie detachments were sent against them.

Well, America
Borisov uses official data from the US Statistical Office. Having considered the population of the United States, the dynamics of fertility and mortality, immigration and emigration, that is. applying generally accepted and recognized research methods, the author comes to a disappointing conclusion: during the famine of 1932–33, the United States did not count more than 7 million lives.

[Koshnitsa]

In short, the sources of hunger in the West are leftist newspapers published on the money of the Comintern.
In the Soviet Socialist Republic 7 million people died from hunger.
Mortality in the USA - cheap fake.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sunflower

Vein. 07.11.32, "Dimineatsa". Bucharest reports

You quote this delusional propaganda in the comm, and then STATE DOCUMENTS on this subject are interesting: reports, studies, statistics.
Do not you have?
When you find, then we'll talk.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Quote: Sunflower

Vein. 07.11.32, "Dimineatsa". Bucharest reports

You quote this delusional propaganda in the comm, and then STATE DOCUMENTS on this subject are interesting: reports, studies, statistics.
Do not you have?
When you find, then we'll talk.

Enough to speculate on this, do you think that the bourgeois government retains what discredits it?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Enough to speculate on this, do you think that the bourgeois government retains what discredits it?

Stop talking!
No documents, goodbye1

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Quote: Alexander Green

Enough to speculate on this, do you think that the bourgeois government retains what discredits it?

Stop talking!
No documents, goodbye1

Do not speculate! Adieu!

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Do not speculate!

Do not lie!

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Do not lie!

What did I lie to?

[Rastas]

How is it not crowded? You're lying, but don’t lie. After February, all the national outskirts without any Bolsheviks embarked on the path of separation. And they did not care about the center. And how was it not a betrayal? And the generals Krasnov and Skoropadsky, sold to the Germans? What about Mannerheim? And the territories of Poland, the Baltic states and Ukraine, where the Germans entered, immediately announced a break with Russia.

[Gopnik]

Quote: Rastas

How is it not crowded? You're lying, but don’t lie. After February, all the national outskirts without any Bolsheviks embarked on the path of separation. And they did not care about the center.

What specific outskirts do not care about the center are you talking about?

Quote: Rastas

And the territories of Poland, the Baltic states and Ukraine, where the Germans entered, immediately announced a break with Russia.

On the break with Bolshevik Russia

[Rastas]

All suburbs began to break even before October, especially in the territories occupied by the Germans. Outskirts did not want to live in your taxable monarchy. The Bolsheviks managed to return them on a new social contract.

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: Rastas

Outskirts did not want to live in your taxable monarchy. The Bolsheviks managed to return them on a new social contract.

Under the monarchy, the outskirts lived and were not particularly eager for freedom. Even the VKF existed calmly without the formation of "initiative groups for independence", which had any significant weight in society. And the Bolsheviks concluded the same "new social contract" only with those regions in which the Red Army was stationed. Something no one from the outside voluntarily was eager for this happiness.

[Gopnik]

"All outskirts" wanted maximum autonomy within the Russian federal republic. Independence after February was promised only to Poland

[naidas]

Well, yes, this can be seen in Finland from autonomy in March 7 (20), 1917, to independence in July 1917.
Ukraine from autonomy in March 4 (17), 1917 to August, where it was forbidden to carry out the orders of any official appointed without coordination with the Central Council.
Vicki directly writes about the collapse of Russia under the Provisional Government; read there not only the western suburbs, but also the eastern and southern ones.

[Gopnik]

Quote: naidas

Well, yes, this can be seen in Finland from autonomy in March 7 (20), 1917, to independence in July 1917.

Finland did not receive any independence in July 1917, but after the October Maidan, yes

Quote: naidas

Ukraine from autonomy in March 4 (17), 1917 to August, where it was forbidden to carry out the orders of any official appointed without coordination with the Central Council.

This is autonomy. But after October, the Bolsheviks recognized the independence of Ukraine

Quote: naidas

Vicki directly writes about the collapse of Russia under the Provisional Government

Well, once Vicki writes! And nevertheless, no one gained independence before the October Maidan. But then the "parade of sovereignties" began

[naidas]

Of course, they didn’t go to school right away, but after kindergarten (they probably waited 6-7 years, and then half a year to prepare), so did independence-autonomy, then independence.
Remember who from the outskirts fought for their autonomy after the fall of the Provisional Government?

[Olgovich]

Quote: naidas

to of independence in July 1917.

. Go to school.

Quote: naidas

Ukraine from autonomy in March 4 (17), 1917 to August, where it was forbidden to carry out the orders of any official appointed without coordination with the Central Council.

Ukrohistorik Savchenko, admirer of Petliura and the UPR: "before the coup, power in Ukraine belonged to traitors to the Wren Government

Quote: naidas

Iki directly writes about the collapse of Russia under the Provisional Government, read

FACTS of declaring independence, and not Chatter-in the south, north, etc. Their-NO.

[naidas]

Olgovich rightly bring the facts: - Remind who from the outskirts fought for their autonomy as part of Russia after the fall of the Provisional Government?
And then they wrote something, and why?

[Koshnitsa]

Against the Communists

[Olgovich]

Quote: naidas

Olgovich rightly bring the facts: - Remind who from the outskirts fought for their autonomy as part of Russia after the fall of the Provisional Government?

The Bolsheviks gave them MORE than autonomy-independence. They took. What is autonomy already?

[naidas]

Well, where are the facts, you have no facts, only speculation, no one defended their federalization.

[Olgovich]

Quote: naidas

Well, where are the facts, you have no facts, only speculation, no one defended their federalization.

Facts WHAT? WHAT DO I HAVE ABOUT?
Once again: BEFORE THE THIEF — None of the Independence Act, NONE of the independence. Maximum talk about autonomy.
Read yours at least:

Brothers Ukrainians! You are assured that we are opposed to the self-determination of Ukraine. It's a lie. Not even for a minute are we thinking of encroaching on the rights of Ukraine.
Even from the point of view of the right ones only national interests of Ukraine You must support the Workers 'and Peasants' Government of Russia. Think about tomorrow. Where is the class that would be able to ensure freedom for all peoples, including Ukrainians? You saw during 8 months of revolution the policy of the cadet bourgeoisie and the policies of coalition ministries in which the Mensheviks and Socialist Revolutionaries met. This nolitics led to the defeat of national freedoms of Ukraine... A few days before the fall of the "coalition" government, Kerensky summoned the members of the Rada to Petrograd toput them on trial.

и

we, the Council of People’s Commissars, recognize the People’s Ukrainian Republic, its right to completely separate from Russia ..
All that concerns the national rights and national independence of the Ukrainian people, is recognized by us, the Council of People's Commissars, immediately, without restrictions and unconditionally.

Against the Finnish bourgeois republic, which remains bourgeois so far, we have not taken a single step in the sense of restricting the national rights and national independence of the Finnish people and we will not take any steps restricting the national independence of any nation

This is from the decrees of the Soviets of power.
Who did not, who gave, the Bolsheviks themselves clearly recognized.
What's not clear?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Rastas

0
How is it not crowded? You're lying, but don’t lie. After February, all the national outskirts without any Bolsheviks embarked on the path of separation. And they did not care about the center

1, I did not drink with YOU.

2, After February, NO ONE declared independence, no one. Not getting it? The maximum is about the intention of the FEDERATION as part of Russia.

Quote: Rastas

And how was it not a betrayal?

It was, of course: Brest betrayalthat gave away a third of the country to the invaders forever, fed the invaders with gold, supplies, people, eventually leading to WWII.

Quote: Rastas

А territory Poland, the Baltic states and Ukraine, where the Germans entered, immediately announced a break with Russia.

For you, the occupying will of the peoples? Go far ....

[EvilLion]

NEP is exclusively trade and speculation. Actually, there was nothing new in it, the war was over, which meant they abolished the standard military restrictions on trade, which the defender immediately took advantage of. citizens. And nothing intelligible traders can not build. In general, the heyday of shoplifting is a sign of economic decline, when production is done and everyone starts to divide the remaining resources. To build something you need a concentration of large resources in the hands of the state, or very large corporations.

[Alf]

Quote: Declarant

And yet, Stalin acted very short-sightedly, destroying the NEP.

NEP began to satisfy the needs of the people in everyday goods, at a time when industry was not really there. The slogan of Bukharin and others like him was like this: First calico, then machine tools. Where would the USSR be in the 41st with this approach to business? It’s the same as now, shops are full of everyone, and the industry is almost destroyed. The fur coat is luxurious, but there is nothing under it.

[Vadim237]

"Where was the USSR in 41 with such an approach to business" - Yes, all in the same place "The Germans at Moscow December 41st" - the loss of the Soviet army: 19000 tanks, 6000 aircraft, 67000 guns and mortars, 2500000 prisoners, half of the USSR industry, under the Germans.

[Alf]

Quote: Vadim237

"Where was the USSR in 41 with such an approach to business" - Yes, all in the same place "The Germans at Moscow December 41st" - the loss of the Soviet army: 19000 tanks, 6000 aircraft, 67000 guns and mortars, 2500000 prisoners, half of the USSR industry, under the Germans.

All these losses gave time to rebuild, but where would the Wehrmacht stand if not for Stalinist industrialization? What would fight back? Beautiful clothes?

[Koshnitsa]

So where did all these pieces of iron go in the 41st year? Abandoned at the border reinforced the Wehrmacht.

[Vadim237]

Yes, in the same way, half of the money spent on 50 industrial facilities, the rest at 1450 is about the effectiveness of the money spent.

[Vladimir 5]

I.V. Stalin-Dzhugashvili destroyed the beginning of construction for centuries of the dreaming state of FREE. EQUAL. and BROTHER citizens. And. Stalin, with bloody methods and coercion, created the state of the FORBIDDEN (collective farms, state, factories, registration) HUMILIATED (fear of the NKVD) and INFLUENCING on each other (number of denunciations) state ... Article on the extermination of the wealthy layer of Russian peasants, for which there is an incomprehensible half-load stuck, - like a trifle in a common cauldron of crimes against the Russian state and the Russian people ... So again, on the little things and the culprits in the heap with Abel Enukidze, one main culprit is beyond jurisdiction ...

[Alf]

Quote: Vladimir 5

I.V. Stalin-Dzhugashvili destroyed the beginning of construction for centuries of the dreaming state of FREE. EQUAL. and BROTHER citizens.

A bloody tyrant has been gone for 70 years. The communist idea has been destroyed for 25 years. What prevents the current government from creating such a state? Sanctions? The dollar rate?

[Vladimir 5]

Alf. An article about the past, and my comment about that. And about today's, so imperialism (with the top of power) and its goals, the collapse of the pseudo-communists of the USSR did not abolish. So they became winners on the ruins of the vanquished "socialist camp" and trample, but they wanted to trample Russia completely, but then the wealth of the defeated could not be obtained in the chaos (for printed papers). So they put the watching Chubais and created a thieves' "oligarchy" for the systematic robbery of Russia at the state level: natural resources go to the west, money for wealth goes to the west there. The people are ruled by a handful of comprador bourgeoisie, with families, villas and money in the west ... We are the defeated people, we are ruled by the proteges of the defeated. An example of how Germany with the Versailles government and billions of dollars in reparations ... we have replaced reparations with natural resources ...

[Alf]

Quote: Vladimir 5

0
Alf.

you said, that

Quote: Vladimir 5

.Stalin-Dzhugashvili destroyed the start of construction

.
That is, if there were no Stalin, then such a state would have appeared. Question-Who began to build it? Specifically, please.

[Vladimir 5]

"If only" - the question on history is illegitimate. But at the amateur level, you can make some preconditions. You know something about the "shot" season of the CPSU (b), who voted for SM .. Kirov ... So imagine S. Kirov - the head of state of the USSR. Of course, the old layer of Bolshevik-revolutionaries was not soft, but repressions of such "Stalinist sweeps" were not even possible. And further, the complete abolition of the NEP policy and private property went only by the decisions of the "Stalinist" Congresses, and more by the decisions of the Central Committee of the party, or rather personally I. Stalin ... and so on.

[hhhhhhh]

Quote: Declarant

And yet, Stalin acted very short-sightedly, destroying the NEP.

You 25 years of the NEP did not show today who is right?

[Vladimir 5]

ggg Kozma friend. - What is happening today in the Russian Federation is the looting of a war-loser and surrendered state, read my comment above ...

[Vadim237]

If everything would be as you described, then from the 90s the country would not have got out.

[Vladimir 5]

Vadim 237 And where did I get out in 25 years, for such a time even after the Second World War compare 1945 and 1970. And now stamping on the spot in comparison with any period in the history of Russia. Here is the conclusion (theft) for a trillion dollars from Russia, this is the main achievement of the ruling camarilla under the screen of GDP ..

[hhhhhhh]

Robbery was from 1941 to 1944, and today is just the same period as 44g

[Megatron]

Right now, it would also not hurt to dispossess the privatizers of the 90s.

[hrulevv]

Gorgeous. Only one question, I understand my great-grandfather why they blamed (there was a forge), this at that time was enough to rot in Kazakhstan. But please explain what my grandfather was guilty of before the Soviet regime, who, working on a collective farm and eating up the last horseradish without salt, sent his father a parcel in the camp? Soviet power classified this as support for the kulaks ...

[hhhhhhh]

It was not necessary to be rude to the chairman of the collective farm.

[hrulevv]

And then they started so beautifully, about moral monsters and sexual perverts, and after them already, and about the peasants who were robbed to the skin, and it seems that they are at the same time ....

[hhhhhhh]

Got a tractor tractor?

[Vladimir 5]

How many collective farmers, even the highest specialists-tractor operators, received and how they lived ... Propaganda in the USSR and repressions even weaned all thinkers and poets in Russia, the country, leaving behind the hangers-on and praise of GREAT and WISE Stalin and the CPSU (b) UNDER HIS MANAGEMENT ... It does not seem to you that you are not taught to think independently ........

[hhhhhhh]

"the country of thinkers and poets" - before the Bolsheviks, 80% of the population was illiterate, the Lithuanians did not even have classrooms.

[Hole puncher]

But in fact, most of the convicts were bandits, thieves, murderers, rapists and real "enemies of the people."

There were many among them who applauded and supported this in every possible way. The one who sings the terror and justifies the murder of innocent people himself falls under the ax, and once he is rubbing his tears with a torn sleeve, he exclaims, "Well, how can that be !?
The author of this abomination was lucky, the wrong times ....

[Basil50]

About peasant unrest somehow kindly and smoothly. The most significant uprising on behalf of the peasants was in the Tambov region, and it began with the murder of doctors and teachers along with their families. Robberies of * former * and priests with churches and monasteries were commonplace. The bandits were destroyed, but today, when much can be * forgotten * and misinterpreted about the * peasantry *. But this was not only in the Tambov region, and as a rule the chieftains were either * former * or officers.

[tasha]

But in fact, most of the convicts were bandits, thieves, murderers, rapists and real "enemies of the people"

I don’t even want to comment ...

Only Stalin managed to win the second peasant war in order to turn Russia into an industrial power, to prepare the country for a new big war with the collective West.

And - woe to the vanquished ...

[Trapperxnumx]

After the stories of my own grandmother about how whole families in the village were sent to Siberia simply on the basis of a denunciation by neighbors, I can’t completely agree with the article. There were no "unrest" or "uprisings" in the village. It's just that people had someone a horse, someone a cow, and worked from dawn to dawn with the whole family ... And how they undressed the exiled right on the street, taking away the last warm clothes from people ... I remember all these stories.
The fact that they cleaned up all that scum that had risen up during the revolution is probably right and deserved. But how many innocent people suffered in this - you should not forget either.

[Blacksmith 55]

Trapper 7. I completely agree, minus the author. Real labor peasants were sent to camps and exiles, and those who ran with flags around the village, speaking for Soviet power, did not want to work.
If you already wanted to organize collective farms, then you had to put the economic and working people at the head.

[020500]

What kind of "labor"? The kulak in the villages was hated with fierce hatred, and it was not the Bolsheviks, but the peasants who called him a world eater long before the revolution.

This is a real world-eater sitting tightly on the neck of the peasants, replacing the landowner and really hanging a debt yoke on the laboring peasants, leading to their ruin, starvation and laborement.

And all these lies "innocently evicted" and listen not. If we take the criminal cases, in which they were then imprisoned, it turns out that 99,999% of these "innocents" were imprisoned for banal theft. So it is with dispossession.

Moreover, here I personally know families who were dispossessed of their own children - for they were unbearably tortured by hopeless rural labor from sunrise to sunset (and the elders were not allowed), and so they managed to escape into the city, get an education and work in industry with an 8-hour in the afternoon, and other achievements of city life

[Looking for]

Absolutely true. MIROED. No wonder such a nickname was given to the fists.

[Rastas]

My grandfather was a small fist. But he despised large ones. He said that rightly so.

[Koshnitsa]

What is a small fist, small stature? 1 m 50 cm?
Are all the kids angry little people?

[Koshnitsa]

Yes, drunks and lazy workers hated. It is a fact.
But then these genetic waste also repented of their deeds.

[Koshnitsa]

There were no world-eaters by the year 1929.
Fists are often red partisans and Red Army soldiers who received benefits and rose a little.

[Olgovich]

Quote: 020500

0
What kind of "labor"? The fist in the villages was hated with fierce hatred

. Lenin wrote after the Thief that the social composition of the village was LEVELED.

Quote: 020500

This is a real world-eater sitting tightly on the neck of the peasants, replacing the landowner and really hanging a debt yoke on the laboring peasants, leading to their ruin, starvation and laborement.

You leave this nonsense for political information of the 1980s.
NO LAWS of the USSR dispossessed Did NOT violate. NO!
There were NO trials over them. They simply took and robbed and exiled, contrary to the CONSTITUTION of the USSR

Quote: 020500

If we take the criminal cases, in which they were then imprisoned, it turns out that 99,999% of these "innocents" were imprisoned for banal theft. So it is with dispossession.

1. Nobody judged the dispossessed.
2. The state (USSR) CONDEMNED and recognized as ILLEGAL repressions (decisions of the so-called triplets, etc.), and your assessments of "correctness" against this background are worth less than zero.

[020500]

Quote: Olgovich

No laws of the USSR dispossessed did not violate. NO!
There were NO trials over them. They simply took and robbed and exiled, contrary to the CONSTITUTION of the USSR

Quote: Olgovich

1. Nobody judged the dispossessed.
2. The state (USSR) CONDEMNED and recognized as ILLEGAL repressions (decisions of the so-called triplets, etc.), and your assessments of "correctness" against this background are worth less than zero.

Blah blah blah...

Text copied from lawinrussia.ru.
When posting in social networks, a link to the source is needed.

On January 30, 1930, the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks adopted a resolution "On measures to eliminate kulak farms in areas of continuous collectivization."

Fists were divided into three categories: the first belonged to the organizers and executors of terrorist acts and anti-Soviet uprisings; they were transferred to the bodies of the GPU to ascertain the measure of their personal guilt, and members of their families were evicted to remote areas of the USSR; the second included the “stronghold of the kulaks in the countryside”; they, too, with their family members were evicted to remote areas of the USSR. The third category included all the other kulaks who, together with their families, were evicted outside the collective farm lands, but in their own area (that is, they did not fall into special settlements).

In just 2 years of the campaign (1930-1932), about 2 million people were resettled, that is, about 400 thousand families or about 2% of the then population of the USSR.

In fact, one word “dispossession” was used to describe two different state campaigns, in each of which a special meaning was put into the term “kulak” (this is why the kulaks were classified into categories).

First campaign - this is a military-police operation to neutralize and punish the organizers and perpetrators of terrorist acts, that is, the "kulaks of the first category", which actually included all active village anti-Soviets, associating them with "kulaks" only because of the need to view the conflict through the prism of the official class theory ... (Since 1927, there have been regular reports from localities about the murders of communists, Soviet employees, police officers and even teachers and teachers who came from cities. Statistics reported that in 1927 901 cases of the so-called "kulak terror" were recorded, and for 7 months of 1928 - already 1049 cases).

Second campaign - This is an operation to disband the “class of fists”, turning them into special settlers so that after “labor re-education” they and their children will return to the composition of ordinary citizens of the Soviet country. Here, fists (more precisely, “fists of the second category”) were understood to mean members of the detached from peasant society (community), individual peasant farms, systematically using the labor of hired workers - farm laborers. Of course, in reality, such prosperous peasants, using only the labor of their family members and not even very wealthy, fell into the category of those, especially if those leaders of the administration who were engaged in dispossession had personal accounts with them, but this was an expected and explainable aberration. associated with the "human factor". Officially, the campaign was directed precisely against the individual peasants who hired laborers, and the majority who fell under its rink belonged precisely to those.

[020500]

And now a little about the "merits" and "hard work" of the kulaks.

Text copied from lawinrussia.ru.
When posting in social networks, a link to the source is needed.

... already in 1927 the kulaks began to disrupt the grain procurement plan. In the fall of 1927, the state managed to buy only 2 million tons of bread against 4 million in the same period last year. The price that the state offered for bread did not suit the kulaks, in whose hands the main grain reserves were concentrated. They did not need manufactured goods, the peasants bought only tobacco, kerosene, matches, soap in the shops, but they were stocked up in plenty during the NEP period.

The fists had bread. In 1927, Russia had a good harvest. But they did not want to sell it at a low price to the state to secure the city. They preferred to hide bread, so that the next year, when the state would be forced to raise prices, sell it more expensive. If the fists sold bread, it was mainly to private merchants who resold it in the city at 50-100% more.

The result of this was the urban food crisis of 1928-1929, about which few people remember today, since this will somewhat spoil the good story that our anti-Sovietists are repeating - about the evil Stalin, who never offended strong owners. But for the townspeople of that time (and for the rural poor, who were also affected by the kulak disruption of grain procurements), it was a shock. People have already lost the habit of queues and coupons, which seemed to be forever a thing of the past along with the civil war and post-war devastation. And suddenly, in the 11th year of Soviet power, when there is no war and no intervention, the cities again lack bread, bakery products, then other food products disappear from the shelves - meat, milk, tea, sugar, and finally food products. People take bakeries by storm (there have been cases of ransacking bakeries). People stand in queues, in which you need to occupy from the night. When food is brought in, fights break out, because the majority will not have enough anyway, the first are speculators who buy dozens of rolls, loaves, canned food, and then sell them at exorbitant prices in the market. Along with the city traders in the markets and the peasants-kulaks - they have everything, but terribly expensive.

Indignation grows in cities, letters to bewildered citizens are pouring into the Central Committee and into the Supreme Soviet. Party opposition distribute leaflets - Trotsky was expelled from the USSR only a year ago, Trotskyist factions in party organizations are numerous and strong.

The population of cities requires the introduction of a rationing system in order to somehow defeat the speculators and have a guaranteed piece of bread. Local cards were introduced already in 1928, and on February 21, 1929, this practice extended to the whole country. First, cards are introduced for bread, then for other products, up to potatoes. Of course, the rations are very low: in Moscow and Leningrad, workers in 1929 received 900 grams of bread every day on ration cards, their family members received 500 grams, and even less in the provinces. Meat or fish per day per worker relied on 100-200 grams, butter, milk, eggs were mainly given only to children. According to the cards, food was not given out free of charge: 1 kg of wheat bread cost 1930 kopecks in the early 20s, rye bread - 9 kopecks (but of course this was nothing compared to the prices of speculators) [15]. The owners of the cards were divided into categories, the workers who were given cards of the 1st category received the most, then the co-workers - the owners of the 2nd category, then the pensioners, the unemployed who had the 3rd category. The "dispossessed" did not receive anything at all - former nobles, priests, etc. A network of public catering was created - canteens, often closed, for employees of a certain department, where they could get lunch at a reduced price, canteens were opened in factories, in institutions: people came there with whole families.

Bukharin and Rykov's proposal to make concessions to the kulaks, to raise purchase prices to the level that the kulaks were comfortable with, were unacceptable to Stalin. He quite rightly believed that if the state did this, it would forever become the object of kulak blackmail and would never solve the food problem (not to mention the problem of industrialization). And not solving this problem means losing power and again plunging the country into chaos. The solution consisted in the reform in agriculture, or rather in the rejection of the stake on the kulak, which turned out to be an extremely fragile ally, and in the stake on collective farms. Kulak did not cope with the role of the state-appointed land user, who was obliged to supply the city with agricultural products and therefore he must be responsible for this. And not separately, but as a class, after all, not separately, but as a whole class the kulaks received special rights from the state in 1922 and 1925, which became the guarantee of their enrichment. State legislative acts of 1922 and 1925 formed a social stratum of post-revolutionary "kulaks"; therefore, the state had every right to disband this stratum.

Dekulakization looked in the eyes of the absolute majority of Soviet people of that time (naturally, except for the kulaks themselves and their relatives) as a completely fair and justified campaign.


secondly, by evicting kulaks to remote areas, Stalin actually saved them and their families from extrajudicial reprisals by the village poor, which had already begun throughout Russia. The poor were extremely bitter against the former "masters of life." Much has accumulated here - and the grievances of former farm laborers, and hatred of wealth acquired not only by their own, but also by someone else's hump, and revenge for the kulak terror, and, finally, a simple understanding that, if it were not for the disruption of grain procurements by their fists, which caused famine in cities, collectivization could begin much later and be much less painful.

[Koshnitsa]

The price offered by the state for bread did not suit the kulaks, in whose hands the main stocks of bread were concentrated. // So you have to pay the normal price.
And steal less. And then they’ll pick up the party of primates of lowbrow and nothing happens

[020500]

That is, in your opinion, any saboteurs and wreckers who organize large-scale economic sabotage against their own country and people, for the sake of profit - is this normal? They are not to blame for anything.

Ahem ... But what about these? In your crisp bakery beautiful past?

... The essence of the crisis was clearly presented in the memorandum of the Voronezh Exchange Committee to the meeting at the Moscow Exchange in September 1916. She noted that market relations had penetrated the village. The peasantry was able to sell less important items of production for a high price and at the same time keep bread on a rainy day due to the uncertain outcome of the war and increasing mobilization. At the same time, the urban population suffered.

However, at the end of 1916, the authorities, not daring to change, limited themselves to a plan for the mass requisition of grain. Free purchase of bread was replaced by surplus between manufacturers. The size of the outfit was established by the chairman of the special meeting in accordance with the crop and size of stocks, as well as the norms of consumption of the province.

Even in Valuisky uyezd, on which the least appropriation was imposed, and the population was in the best position, things were going badly - many peasants assured that they did not have that much grain. Where the bread was, the laws were dictated by speculation. In one village, peasants agreed to sell wheat at a price of 1,9 rubles. for a pood, but soon they secretly refused it: “It then happened that those who responded to the offer of the authorities did not have time to receive money for the delivered bread, when they heard that the firm price of wheat had risen from 1 ruble 40 kopecks to 2 rubles 50 kopecks Thus, the more patriotic peasants will receive less for bread than those who kept it in. Now there is such a belief among the peasants that the more they hold back their grain, the more the government will increase fixed prices, and the zemstvo bosses do not need believe, because they only deceive the people. "

[Koshnitsa]

There was a war, in this case everything is justified.
And when Asian chimpanzees are in power in the country, the struggle with the indigenous population begins.

[Olgovich]

Quote: 020500

That is, in your opinion any saboteurs and pestswho arrange large-scale economic sabotage against their own country and people, for the sake of profit - is this normal?

Who are you to insult fellow citizens saboteurs and pests? Who endowed you with what? None and nothing. To do this, there is a COURT, chop on the nose!

[naidas]

In France, at the end of the 18th century, food prices did not suit either, the task was solved easier than Stalin, through execution.

[Olgovich]

.

Quote: 020500

The fists had bread. In 1927, Russia had a good harvest. But they did not want to sell it at a low price to the state to secure the city

You can’t just interest people work and sell, and only the mind is enough to selectGo away and do not torment either the people or the state. Especially since none he never chose this authority and entrusted nothing.

AND IMPORTANT: stop blah blah blah and show the COURTS (according to the current Constitution of the USSR) over the peasants who decided to rob them completely and to send them to die with children in the North. They did not violate any laws of the USSR!
You can not?
Нет!
Empty chatter in the firebox!

[Olgovich]

Quote: 020500

Blah blah blah...

Text copied from lawinrussia.ru.
When posting in social networks, a link to the source is needed.

On January 30, 1930, the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks adopted a resolution "On measures to eliminate kulak farms in areas of continuous collectivization."

Why is this empty CHAW?
What did you refute?

[kalibr]

The funny thing is that on the GARF website there are volumes devoted to the de-peasantry in the USSR, photocopies of materials, data of extracts by year for the Central Committee, figures ... Everything is there! And the consideration of such a serious topic requires, of course, not blah blah and stories "about debauchery", but serious work with the material. Here, after all, it is not a secondary school in the countryside. But ... there is none of this. This approach is called "small topics" and it is very sad that it takes place.

[Boris55]

Quote: kalibr

The funniest thing is that the GARF website has published volumes devoted to country-leveling in the USSR, photocopies of materials, extracts from the years for the Central Committee, figures ... Everything is there!

Do you propose to pose as an unsatisfied ostrich with a magnifying glass looking at the grains of sand between the toes? After a hundred years, you can already rise above all the specific events, the place of which undoubtedly was, and finally see the whole picture, evaluate their role in the life of our country and the life of each of us.

[kalibr]

You want to say that stating that they were all rapists, the author rose high?

[Boris55]

Quote: kalibr

You want to say that stating that they were all rapists, the author rose high?

I skip such details past my ears. Behind them, forests can not be seen.

[kalibr]

And the devil is always hiding in the little things!

[naidas]

Yes, you can’t read your volumes. There was a task to make agriculture commodity agriculture and did. In Europe and the USA, land was also taken. (At the same time, in the USA they still drove to labor camps).

[Koshnitsa]

Yeah, they did, after several famines, they began to buy grain in the United States and Canada.

[naidas]

And it is possible about the famines after collectivization (from 1945-1947 I do not argue after the war) in more detail.

[Koshnitsa]

Holodomor 1932-33
The famine of 1938 in the Volga region - 600-800 thousand
1941-1944-famine in the war on mass mortality
1946-47, when bread was sent to Romanians and Nazis

[naidas]

until 1938 found only one article - Lost Famine of the thirty-seventh
after continuous collectivization and dispossession, it turns out that 20% of the individual farms remain (so that everyone was driven into collective farms by lies?)
in 1936 he worked 100 workdays, that is, he worked 3 months a year on a collective farm, the rest on himself, as a result, the family went hungry (in 1936, the average output per collective farm yard was 393 workdays).
It turns out that in 1937-39 there was a massive typhoid disease in the Volga region.
Starving in the surveyed areas 135 families with the number of members from 3 to 11 people, from where 600-800 thousand people are unclear, although the article here gives an answer too. Mass visits with families are taking place. (Is it with the serf collective farmers?) From two villages - Russkoye Kolomasovo and Goltyapino 2 900 people for three months.
Sole individual S. Trubochistov plowed on children schoolchildren aged 11 to 15 years. Why did I buy them a kilogram of chocolates. (Let no sweets eat bread?)
The worst demographics of the population of Mordovia decreased from 1 people in 194 to 200 in 1937. (Is this after the epidemic, starvation and departure?) By the way, did Mordovia continue to be unlucky for demography - did the population leave, is hunger again to blame?
Strange is the mention of unpaid workdays — failure to comply with the decisions of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks in 1937-1939 — I do not believe it.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Concerning the purchase and sale of bread, there is such curious information from 100 years ago: "... a new country of consumption has been discovered, strenuously asking for Russian bread - this is Germany, which, not so long ago, a country for exporting bread, now, thanks to the development of its industry, is becoming into the ranks of the importing countries "

"... some states, with the development of factory production in them, began to need imported bread."
That is, those countries in which industry is developed BUY bread. At that time, these included: Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Belgium.
EXPORTED bread ("fed half of Europe, Europe, half the world") Russia, Austria-Hungary, the East Indies, the United States, Canada, Argentina and Australia, and "... also the Balkan states, Turkey, Persia, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt and South American republics. (Encyclopedic Dictionary of Brockhaus and Efron).

Was something said about industrialization in the USSR and its purchase of bread?

[Gopnik]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

this is Germany, which, being not so long ago a country of export of bread, now, thanks to the development of its industry, becomes a member of the countries of import

Through which she paid in WWI, when people there were starving to death. Although, by the way, on the eve of the WWII, Germany supplied bread to Russian Poland and Finland by squeezing out Russian bread itself.

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Bread was exported ("fed half of Europe, Europe, half the world") Russia, Austria-Hungary, East Indies, United States

Oh yes, the USA is definitely a backward agrarian country ...

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Gopnik

Through which I paid in WWI,

The answer is not substantive.

[Gopnik]

This is not an answer, but a replica.
Essentially the same: Germany completely exported bread to itself, even forcing RI out of its own markets. Because of what between the countries there was an economic conflict, which played a role in the beginning of the WWII. This time. The United States exporting bread was the largest industrial power in the world. These are two.

[Koshnitsa]

this is Germany, which, being not so long ago a country of export of bread, //
This is again a lie. Grain production in Germany for 69 million people in 1913 was 14 million tons of grain.
And never a single Germany was an importer of bread, it was not enough for itself, before they bought from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Austria-Hungary, then from Russia. Those who have an excess of bread sell bread and buy from those who have a shortage.
The USA and Austria_Vengria are countries where industry is developed, but Italy is not.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Koshnitsa

This is again a lie.

This is your contemporaries tell.

Quote: Koshnitsa

Those who have excess bread sell bread, but those who have a shortage buy

That is, in tsarist Russia there was an excess of bread? Oh well.

[apro]

Before writing. The author needs to define the term fist. And write from this.
The resource base of the territory of Russia also determines the way of economic activity. It did not work to break out to higher indicators in productivity using the methods of the feudal system. We switched to a capital test it turned out even worse.

[020500]

Kulak is a rural "entrepreneur", in fact the rural bourgeoisie, which led the peasantry into debt slavery, hunger and chronic farming. Oh, how the peasants loved kulaks ... Yes.

“Fist is a reseller, maclac, especially in the grain trade; in ordinary speech means generally a person who is trying by all sorts of lies to make big profits; from this meaning of the word kulak comes the word kulakism or kulachism, that is, fishing for the kulak, overbought, profitability ”(Table Encyclopedic Dictionary. T. IV. Edition from the 4th volume of the partnership A. Granat and Co., former T-va A. Garbel and Co. - M., 1896.S. 2495)


"... a portrait of a really living kulak by the name of Utretsky, presented in the book of a member of the Free Economic Society G.P. Sazonov" Usury-kulaks ":" He was an intelligent, but cruel man who terribly ruined the population. and bought up masses of such land: they say he had up to 50 wastelands, and with these pieces and bills he terribly confused the population.

- It used to be, the peasants say, the people would move in with the flax circle of the yard and the street was blocked up, it was impossible to drive through - all the debtors. The winter day is short, you ought to hurry to hang it up, but he, the owner, is running around, fussing, and a kettle in his hands with vodka - he treats everyone. And as evening comes, it will get dark, he will start to hang flax, he himself is drunk, and he will sing the peasants; Well, he hangs it up, as God puts it on his soul, otherwise he will dump it into the barn without weight and say: so many poods, and there, maybe, twice "(Sazonov G.P. Usury-kulaks. Observations and research. - St. Petersburg ., 1894. S. 151) "


... over time, the forms and methods of robbing peasants from the kulaks have become more sophisticated. The most effective way to make money was money that the peasants urgently needed. Lack of financial resources forced the peasants to go to the fist, and he, narrowing his villagers with a ruble, shamelessly deceived him. Typical, for example, was such a way of “enriching” a fist: A villager who needed something, borrowed from a fist. He narrowed it with money, or with goods at 10-25% per annum (depending on the locality) and opened a bill of exchange in the amount of more than 100 rubles, although the peasant took the goods (money), as a rule, in the amount of not more than 20 rubles. He left his fist open, motivating such a move with the phrase: "You will come to me again." A bill of exchange was not issued to the peasant, but over time, what he took and what the peasant did not take was written into it. And often, the old bill seems to be lost, and then the fist started a new one. But at any moment all bills, both “lost” and present, which for the most part were perpetual, were presented to the peasant for payment.

And some fists, like Khaluev in the village of Dno and his son-in-law Demin in the estate of General Field (Opochetsk district of the Pskov province), generally acted as follows. A peasant comes to them with a request, they open a bill with a certain amount on him, but they don’t give out money or goods, referring to anything. And after a while, this bill pops up for payment (see: ibid., Pp. 196-197). However, this is not all. Fist, lending money to the peasant, obliged him to bring him his harvest (flax, rye, barley, etc.) or goods (honey, hemp, lard, skin, etc.) in the fall. But he did not buy this peasant product at a market price, but at a much lower price. Moreover, when the peasant brought his crop (goods) into the yard, he was soldered here, and then, with the help of a yard, his many relatives, he was counted and measured. GP Sazonov on this occasion wrote: “Why, what they just did not come up with! And the scales are wrong, and false weights, and other fraudulent devices: for example, instead of large weights, they instruct many small ones to bring down a man; weighed not once, but in parts - in a word, not to recount all frauds ”(ibid., p. 111).

Over time, the methods of enslaving the peasants became much more; the fists began to give loans secured by property, livestock, or replaced everything with in-kind workings. Moreover, among themselves, all the merchants and kulaks divided this or that county into sections, so as not to compete with each other; the peasants themselves began to call such business plots the “parish” (see: ibid., p. 118).

[Koshnitsa]

Such fists, described in leftist literature by 1929, a long time ago were not.
And landowners and gendarmes.
And they dispossessed the most hardworking peasants, who for a couple of years were extolled by the authorities themselves as intensifiers.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Koshnitsa

-1
Such fists, described in leftist literature by 1929, a long time ago were not.

So they are illiterate: they do not know that the first wave of dispossession was back in 1918-23, when these fists were destroyed.

[020500]

There was no "first wave of dispossession". The old kulaks either washed away, or went bankrupt, or perished during the Civil War (like the rest of the bourgeoisie), and not some "waves of dispossession"

[Olgovich]

Quote: 020500

No "first wave of dispossession" was notabout.

Go to school

[020500]

These, as you say, "intensive workers", but in reality kulaks, who grew rich due to the labor of hired laborers, in 1928-29 organized sabotage and disrupted grain procurements, which led to severe famine in the cities.

The same actions on their part in 1931, when the dispossession company was already in full swing (when the grain was not handed over, but purposely rotted in anticipation of an imminent dispossession) - led to an even wider famine even in rural areas.

"... the whole class of kulaks received special rights from the state in 1922 and 1925, which became a guarantee of their enrichment. The state, by legislative acts of 1922 and 1925, formed a social stratum of post-revolutionary" kulaks ", therefore the state had every right to disband this stratum ...
The dispossession in the eyes of the vast majority of Soviet people of that time (naturally, except for the kulaks themselves and their relatives) looked like a completely fair and justified campaign.
By expelling kulaks to remote areas, Stalin actually saved them and their families from extrajudicial reprisals by the village poor, which had already begun throughout Russia. The poor were extremely bitter against the former "masters of life." Much has accumulated here - and the grievances of former farm laborers, and hatred of wealth acquired not only by their own, but also by someone else's hump, and revenge for the kulak terror, and, finally, a simple understanding that, if it were not for the disruption of grain procurements cities, collectivization could begin much later and be much less painful. "

[Olgovich]

Quote: 020500

These, as you say, "intensive workers", but in reality kulaks, who grew rich due to the labor of hired laborers, in 1928-29 organized sabotage and disrupted grain procurements, which led to severe famine in the cities.

The power of their ignorance and inability to manage the economy-thwarted procurement, which led to severe hunger in the cities

really fists that are rich at the expense of wage labor

Someone became rich, someone went bankrupt, as there was enough skill and labor.
The main thing is that they did not violate the LAWS. None! EVERYTHING was authorized by the state itself.

[kalibr]

Now that the overwhelming majority of them were "criminals". Families were evicted where children a priori could not be criminals. And exact data are available only on the number of families deported to remote regions of the country (that is, on those that were assigned to the first and second "categories" by the decree of January 30, 1930). In 1930, 115231 families were evicted, in 1931 - 265795. For two years, therefore, 381 thousand families were sent to the North, to the Urals, to Siberia and Kazakhstan. Some of the kulak families (200–250 thousand) managed to “self-dispossess”, that is, to sell or abandon their property and flee to cities or to construction sites. In 1932 and after special eviction campaigns were not carried out. However, the total number of those deported from the village at that time was at least 100 thousand. Approximately 400-450 thousand families, who were supposed to settle in separate settlements within the territories and regions of their former residence (the third "category"), after the confiscation of property and various ordeals, for the most part, also left the village for construction sites and in cities. The total is about 1 million - 1 million 100 thousand farms liquidated in the course of dispossession. Farms! But how many people suffered cannot be accurately counted!

[Boris55]

Quote: kalibr

In total, it turns out about 1 million - 1 million 100 thousand farms liquidated during dispossession.

Tell me, how much would remain of us if all of Europe, with all its industrial power, attacked an agrarian country? How do you imagine who would win: a peasant with a pitchfork tank or a peasant tank?

The First World War did not end with the Brest Peace, it was postponed until the second, and Stalin perfectly understood this. Were there any excesses on the ground? Yes they were. On March 2, 1930, the newspaper Pravda published an article by Stalin, "Dizzy with Success," about excesses in the localities that were made during collectivization.

[Koshnitsa]

It would be, as in 1914, attacked, stuck on two fronts and collapsed.
If not for the traitors in the Kremlin, and Russia would have won. And there would be no continuation.
And who called Russia a backward agrarian country.
Soviet people who could not build a single battleship? That's it ...

[Alf]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Soviet people who could not build a single battleship? That's it ...

The Soviet Union, Soviet Ukraine were laid, the war prevented.

[Koshnitsa]

And at the same time, they launched into the spray all the design bureau?
The low level of engineering and technical personnel, this thing is very serious.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Soviet people who could not build a single battleship?

Are you alluding to those seven vessels that you are ashamed to mention as battleships in decent society?

[Koshnitsa]

Of the 26 EDB and LR in the RIF, 24 were of domestic construction. The agrarian country will be assembled alive and well, the Trans-Siberian Mountains to build and battleships, on long winter evenings.
In the USSR, zero-zero.
Because industrialization, collectivization and the cultural revolution.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

26 EDB

You already decide whether you are about battleships, or about armadillos.

[Koshnitsa]

In the USSR built at least one battleship? That's it ...

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

In the USSR built at least one battleship?

Not even going to. And who needed them after Tsushima?
You would also compare the number of carts built in the Republic of Ingushetia and the Russian Federation, the result would be the same.

[Koshnitsa]

The grapes are green. The Finnish "Väinemäinen" was used under the name "Vyborg" right up to 1960.
Yes, and a lot of carts were built in the USSR. They are still building it.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

The grapes are green. The Finnish "Väinemäinen" was used under the name "Vyborg" right up to 1960.

Used, and did not intend to build.

Quote: Koshnitsa

Yes, and a lot of carts were built in the USSR. They are still building it.

Read carefully my post.

[Koshnitsa]

Well, in order to build even an armadillo you need personnel and skills.
And with this in the USSR it was not very.
Old ones were exterminated and expelled from the country.
But the new ones went wrong.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Well, in order to build even an armadillo you need personnel and skills.
And with this in the USSR it was not very.

Armored cruiser "Svetlana", the place of construction - Le Havre, France;
Armored cruiser "Admiral Kornilov" - Saint-Nazaire, France;
Armored Cruiser "Askold" - Kiel, Germany;
Armored cruiser "Boyar" - Copenhagen, Denmark;
The armored cruiser Bayan - Toulon, France;
Armored cruiser "Admiral Makarov", built at the shipyard "Forge & Chantier", France;
The armored cruiser Rurik was built at the Vickers shipyard in Barrow-in-Furness, England;
Battleship Retvizan, built by William Cram & Sans, Philadelphia, USA;
Armadillo "Cesarevich" - built in La Seyne-sur-Mer in France.

The “Whale” destroyers series, the construction site was the shipyard of Friedrich Schiechau, Elbing, Germany;
The series "Trout" ("Attentive"), were built at the factory of A. Norman in France;
Series "Lieutenant Burakov" - "Forge & Chantier" and the Norman plant, France;
A series of destroyers "Mechanical Engineer Zverev" - Shipyard Schihau, Germany.

The destroyers of the Horseman and Falcon series were built in Germany and, accordingly, in the UK; destroyer Pernov - A. Norman plant, France; “Batum” - Yarrow Shipyard in Glasgow, UK; "Adler" - shipyard Schihau, Germany.

Indeed, in order to build a good ship you need personnel and skills. In RI - it was well understood ...
Understood in the USSR, but the cadre preferred their own.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Koshnitsa

And who called Russia a backward agrarian country.
Soviet people who could not build a single battleship? That's it ..

Yeah .. "Backward" country built Trnassib, the second most important event in the world after the discovery of America. Built by OWN designers, surveyors, engineers, builders, MATERIALS.

The world's longest ALEXEEV bridge, built in 1916, during the WAR. The USSR was never able to build longer in all 70 years.

And if you recall the FIRST in the world telecast, the world's first diesel submarine, the world's first motor ship (70% of all motor ships in the world are Russian), a diesel-electric ship, etc., made in "backward" Russia, it is generally not clear what
comrade Russophobes say

[Olgovich]

Quote: Boris55

Tell me, how much would remain of us if all of Europe, with all its industrial power, attacked an agrarian country? How do you imagine who would win: a peasant with a pitchfork tank or a peasant tank?

The growth rate of Russian production before the thief led to 1940 r to the same results as in the USSR, if there hadn’t been a thief, Gr. war and de-instrumentalization caused by them.
Only people would be TENS of millions more

Quote: Boris55

World War I did not end with the Brest Peace, it was delayed until the second

Yes, it ended with the Versailles peace, on which, due to Brest betrayal, there was no Russia.
And if there were Russia, there would have been no WWII, Russia would not have allowed Germany to arm itself, and France alone could not afford it ...

[Boris55]

Quote: Olgovich

if there were no thief, Gr. war and deinstrualization

If there had not been the February bourgeois revolution, perhaps there would have been no great October socialist revolution. If the chairman of the Duma Tsiriteli had not shouted that "Russia no longer exists," then there would have been no famous statement by Lenin: "There is such a party."

The rotten tsarist elite was completely able to overthrow the tsar’s power, but because of its stupidity, they did not have the brains to rule Russia.

The entire "civilized" world took up arms against the world's first state of workers and peasants, and we withstood, thanks to dispossession, which did not go well, but ultimately achieved its goal. "Everything happens in the best way, according to morality all participants in the process "

[Koshnitsa]

They survived, in 1991, khe-khe. Remember, remember.

[Boris55]

Quote: Koshnitsa

They survived, in 1991 year, khe-khe.

Soviet power ended in 1953.

[Koshnitsa]

Why's that? What happened in 1953.?
Is he dead? So is he the one to save power?

[Boris55]

Quote: Koshnitsa

What happened in the 1953 year.?

The 1953 year is the beginning of the seizure of power by the Trotskyists from the Soviets of workers and peasants to the power of party nomenclature. By the beginning of perestroika, the CPSU led the country completely. The party nomenclature continues to lead the country to this day.

[Koshnitsa]

Sorry, but who was there before 1953, was a worker in the party leadership and who is the peasant?
Is it Kaganovich or Dzhugashvili? And until 1953 there was anarchy in the country and recklessly led the field in the village councils! Boo-go-ha!

[Boris55]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Sorry, but who was there before the 1953 year was in the leadership

Until 1953, the party leadership included communists (Bolsheviks, Trotskyists). In the country's leadership - Tips (professionals). After 1953, power completely passed to the party nomenclature. The Soviets were removed from ruling the country. The leading and guiding role of the party was enshrined in the Brezhnev Constitution. Any party always puts the interests of its party above the interests of its country. It was these party interests that led us to 90 ...

[Koshnitsa]

The country's leadership - Tips (professionals) .// Are you serious? Like, some people ruled the country, but others ruled? The leader of the USSR is a quiet alcoholic, grandfather Kalinin.
Grandpa Kalinin!
*** me ******!
Let go free
I will not steal!

[Olgovich]

Quote: Boris55

The entire "civilized" world took up arms against the world's first state of workers and peasants, and we held out thanks to dispossession,

Only due to dispossession, the country lost several ARMIES of wonderful fighters, and the losses from the famine of 1933 are SEVERAL TIMES more than the losses in the World War 14.

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: Boris55

The entire "civilized" world took up arms against the world's first state of workers and peasants, and we held out,

How? And the United States and Great Britain were also against us? And Latin America?

thanks to dispossession, which took place not in the best way, but in the end, which reached its goal.

The goal was certainly achieved - they did not reach the level of agricultural production in 1913 until 1941. And the "mobresource" was significantly lost. This goal can be attributed to the Vlasovites and the Cossacks, who went to fight against the USSR precisely "in memory" of the special attitude towards their parents and relatives. At the same time, do not think that I am justifying them - a traitor in any case remains a traitor. But if it weren't for such wild methods of "fighting fists", there might not have been those thousands and thousands of traitors ...

[Koshnitsa]

In WWI, the most persistent parts are Cossack, the highest percentage of bloody losses 94% among Cossacks.
In WWI there were no traitors of Russian origin, even Myasoedov has not been proven.
There were no parts from Russian collaborators, only national minorities.
Well, compare with the Second World War.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Well, compare with the Second World War.

Why remind the Cossacks of Panwitz?

If we talk about the Cossack estate, then the events described in "Quiet Don" are very close to reality.
Here you can safely talk about the conflict between the prosperous Cossacks and the so-called a blow, which served, if not the occasion, then the basis of the uprising.
Is it worth recalling that both sides of the Cossack conflict were armed with at least a rifleman, had horses on the farm. And not one at a time.
Thus, the social conflict in the Cossacks in 1918-1920's reached the Second World War.

And what is the peasantry worse in this regard?

[Koshnitsa]

There was no social conflict there, especially in the Don.
82% for white, 18% for red.
And there and there were both poor and middle and rich, in a Don way, of course.
The Kuban and Terts have even less for the Reds.
The Urals only 3% were for Soviet power.
The same is true throughout the country.
In White 85% of leaders did not have their real estate.
For this, the Reds have the top children of wealthy landowners-Ulyanov, Bronstein, Tukhachevsky.
Social conflict invented.
In the Veshensky uprising, the cause is the genocide of the Cossack subethnos under the directive of Yeshua-Solomon Sverdlov.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

In White 85% of leaders did not have their real estate.

What did these leaders fight for?
For a classless society? Is social equality?

Quote: Koshnitsa

There was no social conflict there, especially in the Don.
82% for white, 18% for red.
And there and there were both poor and middle and rich, in a Don way, of course.
The Kuban and Terts have even less for the Reds.
The Urals only 3% were for Soviet power.

The numbers, of course, are amazing. Who thought?
But certainly they were not the Cossacks to which you referred above.
And the poor leaders are essentially fighting on the side of Germany - Krasnov, Shkuro.

[Koshnitsa]

What did these leaders fight for?
For Great and Eternal Russia.
The numbers, of course, are amazing. Who thought?
According to Don Venkov, Kuban Berlizov, Terek Klychnikov, in the Urals, a famous figure from the Soviet ten-volume.
And the poor leaders, in fact, are fighting on the side of Germany - Krasnov, Shkuro. // But they did not fight and did not even serve in the army. They were engaged in refugees, and only.
For a classless society? Is social equality?

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

What did these leaders fight for?
For Great and Eternal Russia.

Hehe ....

The Bolsheviks fought for the same thing ....
For one and indivisible ...

The Cossacks as a class did not disappear after the end of the Civil War.
But those who "helped refugees" in Germany were extradited by the Americans and hanged on the same gallows with Vlasov, who also fought for "his" Russia.

[Koshnitsa]

Reds on the Don
Mironov - a military foreman, a hereditary nobleman, received an allotment on a farm
Podtalkov-under-guard guard, 6th life-guard battery from a wealthy family.
Krivoshlykov-warrant officer, competent, agronomist before the war.
All 78 Red Cossacks executed with them, there was not a single person from the bunker.
Such are the realities.

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: Koshnitsa

In WWI, the most persistent parts are Cossack, the highest percentage of bloody losses 94% among Cossacks.
In WWI there were no traitors of Russian origin, even Myasoedov has not been proven.
There were no parts from Russian collaborators, only national minorities.
Well, compare with the Second World War.

What is your comment for? Are you sure you read what I wrote correctly?

[Koshnitsa]

This is not for you, Dmitry

[marline]

Quote: Olgovich

The growth rate of Russian production before the thief led to 1940 r to the same results as in the USSR, if there hadn’t been a thief, Gr. war and de-instrumentalization caused by them.

This is despite the fact that RI is all in debt like silk? .. oh these fairy tales, oh these storytellers ...

[Koshnitsa]

Well, money was needed for industrialization, if you didn’t borrow it, you would have to rip off your own population, bringing it to cannibalism and corpse-eating, as in the USSR.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Well, money was needed for industrialization, if you didn’t borrow it, you would have to rip off your own population, bringing it to cannibalism and corpse-eating, as in the USSR.

I would even like to ask, where is the money that went to industrialization? Where is industrialization?
In the total industrial production of the five leading powers, the share of RI in the 1913 year was about 4 - 5%. According to industrial indicators per capita, Russia in 1913 was a neighbor of Spain, the most backward country in Europe.
Where is industrialization?

[Gopnik]

Quote: merlin

In the total industrial production of the five leading powers, the share of RI in the 1913 year was about 4 - 5%. According to industrial indicators per capita, Russia in 1913 was a neighbor of Spain, the most backward country in Europe.
Where is industrialization?

The share of Russia in world industrial production in 1913 was 5,3%. At the same time, during the years of WWI, industrial production in Russia grew, in contrast to other participants. The share of the USSR in 1937 (according to Soviet data) is "almost 10%". At the same time, industrial production in the USSR almost remained in place after 1937, while in Germany, Japan and the United States it increased sharply.
Per capita in the USSR, everything was also sour, as Stalin did not try to thin out the population by hunger and repression, it still grew stronger than anyone else in Europe. The USSR overtook the United States and Japan in terms of population, not to mention European countries.

[marline]

Quote: Gopnik

The share of the USSR in 1937 (according to Soviet data) is "almost 10%". At the same time, industrial production in the USSR almost remained in place after 1937, while in Germany, Japan and the United States it increased sharply.

No need to lie, in 1938 year already about 14% of world production. This is more than in Germany (11,6%), England (9,3%) and France (5,7%). What is there at RI?

Quote: Gopnik

At the same time, in the years of WWI industrial production in Russia grew, unlike other participants.

The gross national product of the USSR in 1942 of the year was 1,5 times more than in 1941.
During the war years, wholesale prices declined even for weapons, was there something similar in the Republic of Ingushetia?

Quote: Gopnik

Russia's share in world industrial production in 1913, 5,3%.

Somewhere so I wrote, but okay, so be it. Here you are saying that at the beginning of 20. RI developed quite rapidly and there was even industrialization, but meanwhile dry numbers tell us that in 1850 GNP of Russia was 2 / 5 of German GNP, and in 1913 it fell to one third. Obviously, the impoverished agrarian country was increasingly lagging behind Europe.

[Gopnik]

Quote: merlin

No need to lie, in 1938 year already about 14% of world production. This is more than in Germany (11,6%), England (9,3%) and France (5,7%). What is there at RI?

I find other figures "In 1940, the USSR produced about 10% of the world industrial production. Germany - only 6%", i.e. OK. ten%.
And 1938 is the year after the economic crisis of 1937, when in the same England industrial capacities are unloaded, and the USSR rivets hordes of tanks and aircraft. Then, the closer to the beginning of WW2, not to mention the war itself, a sharp increase in production in Germany and the United States. In the USA, it’s just an avalanche.
The Republic of Ingushetia is doing well - ahead of England, Germany and France, the growth of the economy before the war and the growth of overproduction during the WWII 121,5% in 1916 to 1913 (unlike other participants who have a fall)

Quote: merlin

The gross national product of the USSR in 1942 of the year was 1,5 times more than in 1941.
During the war years, wholesale prices declined even for weapons, was there something similar in the Republic of Ingushetia?

Of course. We also forgot to note that 1942 is a year of gigantic starvation mortality in the rear and a total deficit of consumer goods. What was not in RI.

Quote: merlin

Somewhere so I wrote, but okay, so be it. Here you are saying that at the beginning of 20. RI developed quite rapidly and there was even industrialization, but meanwhile dry numbers tell us that in 1850 GNP of Russia was 2 / 5 of German GNP, and in 1913 it fell to one third. Obviously, the impoverished agrarian country was increasingly lagging behind Europe.

I will tell you the truth - in 1850 a country like Germany did not exist.

[marline]

Quote: Gopnik

I find other figures "In 1940, the USSR produced about 10% of the world industrial production. Germany - only 6%", i.e. OK. ten%.

Please:

Quote: Gopnik

And 1938 is the year after the economic crisis of 1937,

1938 is the last peace. It seems logical to me to focus on him.

Quote: Gopnik

The Republic of Ingushetia is doing well - ahead of England, Germany and France, the growth of the economy before the war and the growth of overproduction during the WWII 121,5% in 1916 to 1913 (unlike other participants who have a fall)

Yes, yes, yes ... The rapid growth of quotations, speculation, gambling and all that jazz ...
Meanwhile, if you still take off your pink glasses and look with an open mind, it will turn out that, for example, iron ore production decreased by 28%, copper by 32%. The percentage of rail transportation fell to 71% - this is due to a decrease in steam locomotives by 18%, and wagons by 19,5%. And of course, agriculture is grain harvesting in 1916. decreased by 20% (relative to the average annual level of 1909-1913). Given that the supply of the army increased 2,4 times - urban hunger in 1917 was provided.

Quote: Gopnik

Of course. We also forgot to note that 1942 is a year of gigantic starvation mortality in the rear and a total deficit of consumer goods. What was not in RI.

You have mixed something up: not 1942, but 1943, and not in the USSR, but in Bengal.
However, if you have any kind of documentary starvation in 1942 in the USSR, provide.

[Gopnik]

Quote: merlin

Please:

Clear. I cited Soviet data, but according to the data of Western economist P. Bayrokh, you have. According to him, the share of industrial production in Russia in 1913 amounted to 8,2%. And, let me remind you, during the years of WWII industrial production in Russia grew, while in Germany, France and England it fell.

Quote: merlin

1938 is the last peace. It seems logical to me to focus on him.

Logically, yes. In this peaceful year, the USSR riveted thousands of tanks, in contrast to the same England, in which 20% of the industrial capacities were unloaded. Then, in 1941, these thousands of tanks were thrown at the border and ganged out tanks and planes from the same England. In 1938, the United States had almost no armored forces, during the war years they riveted, without any tension, almost from scratch so many tanks that they supplied them to their allies, including THE USSR. Not to mention airplanes and ships.

Quote: merlin

Meanwhile, if you still take off your pink glasses and look with an open mind, it turns out that, for example, iron ore production decreased by 28%, copper by 32%.

So what? The same, and even cooler, happened in all the belligerent countries. "And if you compare with Russia, the fall was sometimes much more serious. The disastrous situation in France is especially striking. For example, steel production there fell from 4,687 million tons in 1913 to 1,111 million tons in 1915." Not to mention the USSR in the Second World War, to which the allies supplied grain, along with canned food.

Quote: merlin

You have mixed something up: not 1942, but 1943, and not in the USSR, but in Bengal.
However, if you have any kind of documentary starvation in 1942 in the USSR, provide.

Well, you need to know the site on which you communicate. Here's an article about mortality in the rear https://topwar.ru/32834-demograficheskie-tayny-ushedshey-voyny.html "In the rear territories, the super-mortality rate of the civilian population (women, children, the elderly, excluding men) was 3,34 million people ".
Here is an article for you about mortality in only one of the regions, in Yakutia https://moluch.ru/archive/97/21955/ "Over the four war years, starting from 1941, natural increase was absorbed entirely by large mortality rates. 1941, the natural decline in the population as a whole in the republic amounted to 961 people; in 1942 - 8235 people; in 1943 - 9575 people; in 1944 - 103 people. "
More than 1942 thousand people died in the Gulag in 350 - 25% of the average monthly number! These are the largest figures in the history of the Gulag.

[marline]

Quote: Gopnik

I cited Soviet data, but according to the data of Western economist P. Bayrokh, you have.

All the less reason to suspect him of bias.
I must note that this particular table was taken from Paul Kennedy.

Quote: Gopnik

Logically, yes. In this peaceful year, the USSR riveted thousands of tanks, in contrast to the same England, in which 20% of industrial capacities were unloaded.

What prevented England from riveting tanks?

Quote: Gopnik

Then, in 1941, these thousands of tanks were thrown at the border and ganged out tanks and planes from the same England.

And who and what did England snag?

Quote: Gopnik

The United States had almost no armored forces in the 1938; during the war years, they riveted, without any tension, almost from scratch so many tanks that they supplied them to their allies, including USSR. Not to mention airplanes and ships.

Well done.

Quote: Gopnik

So what?

And that. At whose expense did heavy industry grow?

Quote: Gopnik

Well, you need to know the site on which you communicate. Here's an article about mortality in the rear https://topwar.ru/32834-demograficheskie-tayny-ushedshey-voyny.html "In the rear territories, the super-mortality rate of the civilian population (women, children, the elderly, excluding men) was 3,34 million people ".

Wow! An article by a priest and a publicist is a very serious argument in a dispute !!!
And yet an article on mortality, not hunger.

Quote: Gopnik

Here is an article on mortality in only one of the areas in Yakutia https://moluch.ru/archive/97/21955/

About mortality.
No one argues that it was hard, and no one argues about malnutrition either, but there was no mass hunger.
In fact, it is very interesting to poke a finger in the USSR and bashfully ignore RI. Or maybe give statistics statistics on mortality with 1890g. according to 1910, when there was no war and hunger, it seems, too ...
However, the latter is clearly not the level of a lover of crunch of custodian buns.

[Olgovich]

Quote: merlin

About mortality.
No one argues that it was hard, and no one argues about malnutrition either, but there was no mass hunger.

What did people die from, if, first of all, not from hunger?
The famine was terrible, and if it had not been for the supply of food from the USA, etc., a tragedy of the level of 1933 would have been inevitable.

There was not only hunger, but also cannibalism, and in the rear: (from the archives of the Chelyabinsk region):

"SPECIAL MESSAGE OF THE NKVD DEPARTMENT FOR THE SVERDLOVSK REGION IN THE NKVD OF THE USSR February 25, 1943, No. 15335, Sverdlovsk

February 19, p. Mr. P., daughter born in 1932, disappeared from Mr. P., who lives in the working village of V.-Pyshma.

As a result of the search conducted at S., the clothes of P. Anna and her body were found, cut into pieces, part of which was salted, and part was hidden near the house under snow.

. Anna S. Meat ate herself, fed her children, and also sold in the market for 130 rubles per piece, and a quarter of a liter of fat sold in the market for 200 rubles.


10 March 1943 cityNumber 829, city of Tavda

I’m informing you that on March 2, 1943, on a business trip No. 3 of the Dubrovinsky camp point of the 2nd division of the Vostokurallag of the NKVD, in the laundry room of the bathhouse under the floor was found a corpse of a disinfector - a prisoner J., born in 1915, convicted by a military tribunal under Art. 58 p. 2 of the Criminal Code for 10 years ITL.


Arrested in this case, the bathhouse attendant of the military unit Ch., Born in 1911, a native of der. Petrovo Kardymovskogo district of the Smolensk region, Russian, b / des., Comes from peasants, did not serve in the Red Army, and during interrogation he admitted that he killed J. with a purpose eating slaughtered meat"

Read how and how many children and adults died of starvation in Bashkiria, Udmurtia, the Urals (all from the archives) http://www.archive.gov.tatarstan.ru/magazine/go/anonymous/main/?path=mg:/numbers/2014_1_2/03/03/
It's all in the rear.
And here is another fact about children (42-43 g):

Bodies of the NKVD of the Southern Urals managed to detain 149 street and street children. Homelessness and neglect in wartime conditions were objective: military and labor mobilization, employment of parents and relatives at work, reduction of school hours to 2,5-3 hours a day, deprivation of custody of children due to arrests, death of adults from exhaustion and excessive loads. Systematic raids were carried out to remove children from the streets (holidays, Sunday, etc.); in January 1942 when the problem acquired mass character, organized children's reception centers.

Scientific library of dissertations and abstracts

[Koshnitsa]

The earliest figures tell us that in 1850 the GNP of Russia was 2/5 of the GNP of Germany, and in 1913 fell to a third. // Beautiful. Only the state of Germany in 1850 did not exist on the world map and in statistics. Careful, citizen.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Only the state of Germany in the 1850 year did not exist on the world map and in statistics

You can compare with England, the result will be the same
Oh yes, you haven’t been taught this at school yet ... byad ....

[Koshnitsa]

And why should I compare with England, when you cite Germany as non-existent at that time.
Fucked, run over first? No, that will not do.
We are not in a hut for youngsters.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

And why should I compare with England, when you cite Germany as non-existent at that time.

Just do not know how. What class, boy?

Quote: Koshnitsa

We are not in a hut for youngsters.

At the expense of you there is confidence in infancy.

[Gopnik]

Russia was in debt no more than France or England. And how France and England were supposed to get reparations

[marline]

Quote: Gopnik

Russia was in debt no more than France or England. And how France and England were supposed to get reparations

Yes, yes, yes ... France and England are such faithful allies ... they would certainly share the money, but after they would have pulled the country apart.
And yes, France and England borrowed from the USA. And Russia, first with France and England, and then with its own population. But in general, are you sure that by that time Germany, impoverished, could be able to work out all these debts in a hundred years on reparations?

[Gopnik]

Quote: merlin

Yes, yes, yes ... France and England are such faithful allies ... they would certainly share the money, but after they would have pulled the country apart.

Don't fantasize

Quote: merlin

But in general, are you sure that by that time Germany, impoverished, could be able to work out all these debts in a hundred years on reparations?

Why guess? Germany paid reparations. True, others took the share of Russia, since the Bolsheviks themselves refused

[marline]

Quote: Gopnik

Why guess? Germany paid reparations.

Indeed, why:

Germany completed the payment of reparations following the results of the First World War. The last tranche of 70 million euros was paid 3 October 2010g., On the day of the 20 anniversary of the reunification of Germany, reports BBC News

According to Lenta.ru
I almost guessed, and yes, back in 20, the reparations were halved.

[Gopnik]

Well i.e. Do you agree that Germany paid the reparation and eventually paid? Fine.

[marline]

Quote: Gopnik

Well i.e. Do you agree that Germany paid the reparation and eventually paid?

And I wrote somewhere that she did not pay reparations? Or that did not pay them?
Okay, I will explain it especially for you, since you are not "catching up". The essence of my post was that even if Russia were recognized as the victorious country in WWI, and received reparations, they would still not be enough to pay off the state debt.

[Koshnitsa]

She worked. Recently paid by the way.

[marline]

Quote: Koshnitsa

She worked. Recently paid by the way.

Do you have attention deficit disorder? Go to the school psychologist, he will help.

[020500]

Quote: kalibr

Some of the kulak families (200–250 thousand) managed to “self-dissolve”, that is, to sell or abandon their property and flee to cities or construction sites.

In fact, most of this was done quite voluntarily. Life in the city was then much easier than in the countryside. Young people didn’t want to be hunchbacked from morning till night all year round - education, normal work, culture, etc. were in the city

[020500]

Quote: kalibr

children cannot be criminals a priori

Why did it happen?

[naidas]

Do you offer to evict parents and leave their children?

[Olgovich]

Quote: naidas

Do you offer to evict parents and leave their children?

Million children WHAT settled in huts from poles and worked on logging, etc.?
Where are the court decisions on the deprivation of children their rights (see the Constitution of the USSR), property and forcing them to work on felling, eh?
"Socially dangerous children"Who invented this?

[naidas]

Quote: Olgovich

"Socially dangerous children" - who invented it?

Someone who is Chukovsky in a letter to Stalin.
... I would not dare to write to you about this case, if it were single. But, unfortunately, I know a large number of schools where there are socially dangerous children, which must be removed from there so as not to destroy the rest ...

Unlike you, the Olgovichs, I would not want to meet with a bunch of such kids, a place for such rapists and thieves in the colonies, and not at lectures on the Constitution.

Chukovsky- "The regime in these colonies should be much stricter than in vocational schools. The main occupation of the colonies is agricultural labor."

[Olgovich]

Quote: naidas

Unlike you, the Olgovichs, I would not want to meet with a bunch of such kids, a place for such rapists and thieves in the colonies, and not at lectures on the Constitution.

First, find out what was invested in this concept (SOD) by the NKVD.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: kalibr

Now that the overwhelming majority of them were "criminals". Families were evicted where children a priori could not be criminals.

Eviction is not a prison; you offer parents to evict. and leave the children alone?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Eviction is not a prison; you offer parents to evict. and leave the children alone?

I suggest DO NOT REFERENCE children!

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

I suggest DO NOT REFERENCE children!

Leave alone? On a collective farm? Without parents? Yes, you’re my maniac ....

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Leave alone? On a collective farm? Without parents?

Leave FREEDOM - with your RELATIVES - mother, grandfather, grandmother, with your RIGHTS to housing, property and to LIFE. Instead of turning them into something that "sticks into dirty, rotting, lump "(from letter Commissar of the Interior RSFSR V.N. Tolmachev about them)

Show solutions Courts, Laws, Articles of the Constitution depriving a million exiled children of these rights. And according to their direct relatives, too

According to Zemskov’s calculation, he died 600 000 from exiled peasants.
80% dead-CHILDREN (Siblag statistics)! Are you human
.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Leave AT FREEDOM — with your RELATIVES — mother, grandfather, grandmother, with your RIGHTS on housing, property and LIFE.

The exile is not a prison, moreover, they were sent mainly to neighboring regions, to the "terrible" Siberia, they only expelled those who deserved by their actions. But Zemsky's "figures" confirm how you love with documents, only real, not fake.

[Koshnitsa]

With such mortality, reference is generally genocide.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

+2
With such mortality, reference is generally genocide.

And the killing of collective farm activists, Selkors, communists, Komsomol members, ordinary collective farmers with their families, the burning of barns with grain, the destruction of livestock, etc. what is it called?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Link is not a prison.

I don't care about YOUR "ratings". The state assessed them as iniquity, i.e. crime against citizens of the country.
This is also clear to all NORMAL people: to take away property depriving ALL rights, incl. you can live on only by court order. Do you agree that ALL should be taken from you and sent to a hut in Narym without trial?

Quote: Alexander Green

in "terrible" Siberia, only those who deserved by their actions were expelled.

Liar WHERE is the court?

Quote: Alexander Green

But Zemsky's "figures" confirm how you love with documents, only real, not fake.

Read Zemskov, an ardent communist and heaven-worshiper of Solzhenitsyn, he refers to the archives, I can’t do this for you.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

I don't care about YOUR "ratings". The state assessed them as lawlessness, i.e. a crime against the citizens of the country.

If you are indifferent, then why bother? And the bourgeois state, consisting of enemies of socialism like you, condemned dispossession.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

And the bourgeois state, consisting of enemies of socialism like you, condemned dispossession.

condemned the SOVIET state in 1989-1991 since ALL SOVIET laws of the USSR of those years were violated

[alebor]

I don't understand why A. Samsonov cites the example of the "pervert" Enukudze as a typical repressed? I'd rather tell you about S.P. Korolev with a broken jaw during interrogations, or about K.K. Rokossovsky with knocked out teeth and broken ribs. Perhaps they should have been grateful for the fact that they "got off easy" and were not shot, like many other arrested "perverts"?

[Andrey VOV]

Korolev was de facto convicted as they would now say "misuse of budget funds"

[Koshnitsa]

And in the USSR everyone was convicted of criminal charges. There were no political

[Claymore]

Quote: Koshnitsa

And in the USSR everyone was convicted of criminal charges. There were no political

What is a "political article"?

[Koshnitsa]

As under the King, there was division

[Claymore]

The "as at" answer can be given to the "how" question, but not to the "what is" question.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Andrey VOV

Korolev was de facto convicted as they would now say "misuse of budget funds"

Korolev is justified from the insane accusation

[Rastas]

By the way, Korolev was a communist. Therefore, you must a priori hate his fierce hatred.

[Koshnitsa]

He was also a hereditary nobleman. Do you hate him for this?

[Rastas]

No. I calmly move to the period of the monarchy and even sometimes defend it from too zealous anti-monarchists

[Olgovich]

Quote: Rastas

+1
By the way, Korolev was a communist. Therefore you are a priori have his fierce hatred hates

What's wrong with you?

[020500]

Yes, he was condemned correctly. And then they also had mercy. In July 1944, S.P. Korolyov was prematurely released from custody with the removal of a criminal record, but without rehabilitation. For honest work and a clear correction. In essence, parole.

And he was "rehabilitated" already in the era of the Khrushchev clique of corrupt traitors to the Motherland. When all a bunch of "rehabilitated" without understanding.

[Koshnitsa]

And did he correctly break his jaw during interrogation? Or in violation of socialist legality? Approve?

[020500]

Jaws with irregularities. I do not approve.

[Koshnitsa]

I didn’t admit it because of that and they broke it.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

-2
And did he correctly break his jaw during interrogation? Or in violation of socialist legality? Approve?

And the hidden enemies of the Soviet regime broke their jaws, they made their way to the NKVD and then got what they deserved ..

[Koshnitsa]

I’m not sure that the NKVD officers who broke their jaws by order of their superiors received their punishment for this act.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

I’m not sure that the NKVD officers who broke their jaws by order of their superiors received their punishment for this act.

And, what, do not know that with L.P. Beria dealt with them, and everyone got what they deserved.

[Koshnitsa]

So then they sorted it out with your Beria, banged, burned it and scattered it in the dust over the treatment facilities.
And they dealt with the people of Beria, in the house where he was born, in the village of Mingrelian colonists, now a roadside toilet

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

So then they sorted it out with your Beria, banged, burned it and scattered it in the dust over the treatment facilities.
And they dealt with the people of Beria, in the house where he was born, in the village of Mingrelian colonists, now a roadside toilet

It's okay, the counter-revolution has temporarily won, but the time will come and everything will return to normal, because the ideas of socialism are progressive.

[Olgovich]

Quote: 020500

+2
Yes, he was condemned correctly

Not for you to judge, but for the Court. And he justified him.

[goose]

Quote: Olgovich

The victory of the NEP meant the disappearance of the power of the Bolsheviks and the inevitable transfer of power to the people.

Are you so naive How many states in the world with real power of the people? Only Iceland comes to mind.
As candidates - Cuba, Denmark and Switzerland. ANYTHING is not visible.

[Olgovich]

Quote: goose

Are you so naive How many states in the world with real power of the people?

I will say differently: In ANY other country, the people had more power than in the Soviet one.

[Andrey VOV]

What is and what is the difference between the power of the people in any other country, as you said, from the power of the people in a Soviet country?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Andrey VOV

0
What is and what is the difference between the power of the people in any other country, as you said, from the power of the people in a Soviet country?

In any country there was at least some but the choice.
There wasn’t.

[your1970]

Quote: Olgovich

Quote: goose

Are you so naive How many states in the world with real power of the people?

I will say differently: In ANY other country, the people had more power than in the Soviet one.

- absolutely .... especially in the dictatorship ..... especially if you go somewhere in the direction of Africa / Latin America / Indochina with a colonial finger ... surely the people had more power - than the people in the USSR ... ..
there is also the small britain scampering with the slogan - "our people rule !!"

[Olgovich]

Quote: your1970

by all means .... especially in the dictatorship ..... especially if you go somewhere in the direction of Africa / Latin America / Indochina with a colonial finger ... surely the people had more power - than the people in the USSR .... .
there is also the small britain scampering with the slogan - "our people rule !!"

In the dictatorship, no, of course. But they were neither dispossessed, nor millions of victims of hunger.

[your1970]

Quote: Olgovich

Quote: your1970

by all means .... especially in the dictatorship ..... especially if you go somewhere in the direction of Africa / Latin America / Indochina with a colonial finger ... surely the people had more power - than the people in the USSR .... .
there is also the small britain scampering with the slogan - "our people rule !!"

In the dictatorship, no, of course. But they were neither dispossessed nor million victims of hunger.

- at Africa there was no hunger ??? B colonies Small Britain (including India) ??? in Indochina??
you something in the heat of the conviction of the USSR completely lost the coast to the state - "Stoned" .......

[Olgovich]

Quote: your1970

there was no famine in Africa ??? In the colonies of Small Britain (including India) ??? in Indochina ????

YES, neither in Africa, nor in Indochina, nor in general nowhere in the world SUCH a hunger (absolutely secret to 1989 d) as 1933 never did not have!
Chop up a bundle on your nose about it!

Quote: your1970

you something in the heat of the conviction of the USSR completely lost the coast

Do not confuse the country and power. Our country-beautiful.

2. take an interest in the topic "Mass famine in the XNUMXth century": and that power all around: the famines of 1933, 22, 47

[020500]

Quote: Olgovich

famines 1933, 22

And for these famines, I must say thanks to the fists extolled by you. And the authorities should be blamed for the fact that they themselves had clenched their fists, and for the fact that the dispossession had not begun a couple of years earlier. You look and hunger would not be

[Koshnitsa]

For the famine of 1932-33, I must say thanks to the dispossessed fists in 1929-30? Excuse me, how?

[Han Tengri]

Quote: your1970

you, in the heat of denouncing the USSR, completely lost the coast to the state - "Stoned" .......

This is Olgovich! He never found them.

[Koshnitsa]

That is, the Slavic republics in the USSR can be safely compared with the colonies of Africa and Asia?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

In the dictatorship, no, of course. But they were neither dispossessed, nor millions of victims of hunger.

And you take an interest in the history of England when capitalism began to develop there, how all the peasants were driven out of the land, how they were dying of hunger, and how they were hanged. In Russia, capitalism arose later and there was less time for its development, so the socialist revolution had to solve the tasks that capitalism had to solve. But the Soviet government, unlike the English, did not drive out of the land, but proposed an effective way to develop agriculture, and applied administrative measures to those. that harmed this development.

[Koshnitsa]

Well, to compare Russia and England is generally impossible. Russia is a huge desert land, in which even the Middle Volga region was not completely colonized

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Well, to compare Russia and England is generally impossible. Russia is a huge desert land, in which even the Middle Volga region was not completely colonized

Why not? You often compare the First World War and the Great Patriotic War, and you don’t even blush.

[Koshnitsa]

A war in a short period, about the same composition and with the same outcome, and why blush?
It can be generally considered as one war in two stages.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

It can be generally considered as one war in two stages.

If so, then the bourgeois revolution in England and the socialist revolution in Russia can also be considered as one historical development in two stages.

[Koshnitsa]

But not necessary.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

But no need

Means and German. The war of 1914 with the Great Patriotic War also does not need to be compared.

[goose]

Quote: Trapper7

After the stories of my dear grandmother about how entire families were sent to Siberia in the village simply by the denunciation of their neighbors, I cannot fully agree with the article.

These stories with denunciations and vaults of accounts with neighbors began long before collectivization and dispossession, and ended only in 1938, when special commissions were created. Of course, the rampage of Black Friday at the time when denunciations were the norm, was a terrible mistake that the commission raked for another 8 years. But objectively, more than 80% of those repressed during the period 1935-1938 were rehabilitated by 1940. The same commission also dealt with the events of the early 30s. As a result, the atmosphere of universal denunciation was broken, although in some areas it survived to the end of the 80s.

[Olgovich]

Quote: goose

o objectively, more than 80% of the repressed in the period 1935-1938, were rehabilitated by 1940.

What have they raised?

[Rastas]

So they also rehabilitated in droves, often without trial, really guilty or not.

[Beringovsky]

And no one killed them - why did they resurrect

[Koshnitsa]

Themselves in the camps died!

[kalibr]

Quote: Boris55

about excesses in places allowed during collectivization.

Admitted as instructed above!

[Boris55]

Quote: kalibr

Admitted as instructed above!

Do you deny initiatives from below? But what about: "Calm down, urak"?

[Koshnitsa]

Do you believe that?

[Boris55]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Do you believe that?

Since I believe, I do not believe - it’s in your church.

[Koshnitsa]

It’s clear that it’s not a church, although there are holy places that are anti-church, there are holy processions twice a year, you are offended when your religious feelings and prophets are offended.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Boris55

Quote: Koshnitsa
Do you believe that?

Since I believe, I do not believe - it’s in your church.

If you study the history of the country on the materials of the XX Congress, then you can believe in Martians.

[Koshnitsa]

Other congresses were no less fantastic.
Lenin promised communism in 15 years, Stalin in 20 years, Khrushchev in 25 years.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Lenin promised communism in 15 years, Stalin in 20 years, Khrushchev in 25 years

Well, I don’t argue about Khrushchev, there is a clinic.
But about the promises of Lenin and Stalin-cite at least, with reference to sources.

[Koshnitsa]

It’s a shame, comrade, to not know this.
These are the classics of Marxism-Leninism.
And now, the generation that is now 15 years old and which in 10-20 years will live in a communist society, should set all the tasks of their teachings so that every day in any village, in any city, young people solve practically this or that task of common labor, albeit the smallest, let the simplest. As this happens in every village, as communist competition develops, as young people prove that they can combine their work, the success of communist construction will be ensured. Just looking at every step we take from the point of view of the success of this construction, only asking ourselves whether we have done everything to be united by conscious workers, the Communist Youth Union will make it unite half a million of its members into one army of work and arouse general respect for itself . (Thunder of applause.)


Pravda MM 221, 222 and 223; 5, b and 7 October 1920


Printed according to the text of the brochure:

N. Lenin (V.I. Ulyanov). "Tasks of the Youth Unions", Moscow, 1920, verified with the text of the newspaper
At the October plenary session of 1952, Stalin expressed the opinion that, approximately in 1962-1965, while maintaining the current pace of development of the national economy, the USSR would be able to switch from socialism to communism. And this transition will begin with the liquidation of money in the Union. They will remain only for foreign trade. In 1940, Stalin promised communism in 1955.
Well, Khrushchev will find yourself in 1980.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

At the October plenary session of the 1952, Mr. Stalin expressed the opinion that at about 1962-1965, while maintaining the current pace of development of the national economy, the USSR will be able to transition from socialism to communism

Stalin was not a searchlight like Khrushchev was.
In all respects, Khrushchev to Stalin was like walking to the moon.
What Ilyich stated .... Let us leave this on his conscience.

[Koshnitsa]

They are all the same, they built communism in the near future, khe-khe ...
Stalin did not even know how to speak Russian, for 50 years of living among Russians. What does not testify to the mind at all.

[stalkerwalker]

Engaged in spiritualism? Did they evoke the spirit of the deceased and communicate directly?

The presence of an accent did not make Stalin’s speech illiterate.
The person who was involved in the question of nationalities, and wrote several dozen books and works, could not know the Russian language.

[Looking for]

Chekhov and the Czech Republic had long been wiped off the face of the earth.

[antivirus]

agree
weirdos on "m" banned "-" me
freedom of flight
cancel cons undertakers

[kalibr]

A trend is set from above, but you can say anything to one. Are you used to rising above the little things? Do you refer to them yourself?

[Boris55]

Quote: kalibr

Are you used to rising above the little things? Do you refer to them yourself?
... And the devil is always hiding in the little things!

And what to do ... As the saying goes, if you want to be understood, speak with the interlocutor in his language.

[Claymore]

Quote: kalibr

Admitted as instructed above!

Documents with directions to the studio.

[kalibr]

Speech I.V. Stalin at the conference of Marxist agrarians "On issues of agrarian policy in the USSR", December 27 1929

[Claymore]

What part of this speech is indicative of excesses?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: kalibr

Admitted as instructed above!

Our historian forgot about the Resolutions of the Central Committee of the CPSU (B.) On excesses in the field.

[antivirus]

weirdos on "m" banned "-" me
freedom of flight
cancel cons undertakers

[Andrey VOV]

Leaving the NEP’s policy, we would not have won the war and didn’t achieve the pace of industrialization ... NEP as a temporary measure had its advantages, but the bourgeois class and shopkeepers began to revive, new Soviet bourgeois began to appear and he sowed those grains of corruption of the power elite that it was not possible to destroy Stalin to the end, and which sprung up under a stormy weed under Khrushchev and bloomed in the future

[Koshnitsa]

Who are you, and what war have you won?

[Boris55]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Who are you, and what war have you won?

We do not separate ourselves from our ancestors and do not oppose ourselves to them. We are one with them. And you?

[Koshnitsa]

You are some kind of non-human organism, Lem had such, multi-bodies were called.
You are a pension participant of the Second World War, for the grandfather is not getting?

[Boris55]

Quote: Koshnitsa

You are a pension participant of the Second World War, for the grandfather is not getting?

Are you interested in anything other than dough?

[Andrey VOV]

Do you have such a way of clinging to the word? Everyone perfectly understood who won and what I had in mind ... but I also won my personal war,

[Koshnitsa]

That is, by killing several million of their soldiers, embittered tens of millions, destroying the military and technical elite, Stalin contributed to Hitler's victory in this way, but not the other way around.

[Andrey VOV]

You yourself understood what you wrote ?? What kind of crap? From what oak did you fall off writing this? Where did you get this from reading my comment ????

[Koshnitsa]

From your words, dear Andrei, from your support for the policy of the Communists in the pre-war period.

[Andrey VOV]

Hmm ..... this is the mess and the intricacies you have .... how can it be from my opinion that if the NEP had not collapsed, the country would not have made such industrialization, we can conclude that all this was done so that Hitler defeated Stalin ??? ???

[Koshnitsa]

Strongly helped Stalin glands in the 41st year to win the war?
That is, you see only one side, as if without the massacre of the population it was impossible to carry out industrialization?

[Andrey VOV]

the figures of the shot and repressed in that period of time are known, and if you studied at school, you should know that the Great Patriotic War officially ended on May 9, 1945

[Andrey VOV]

and at that time, it couldn’t be done in any other way ... if you look carefully, all the turning points, at least the majority, were accompanied by blood .. not only in Russia

[Gopnik]

how do you know whether it was possible or not ??? Repression and dispossession only harmed the USSR and prevented the normal course of the Second World War, and, as a result, led to gigantic losses.

[Andrey VOV]

What does the normal course of World War II mean?

[Gopnik]

So without drapes to Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad, and without losses several times higher than that of the enemy.

[Koshnitsa]

With less loss and defeat.

[Claymore]

Quote: Gopnik

Repression and dispossession only harmed the USSR and prevented the normal course of the Second World War, and, as a result, led to gigantic losses.

What is the "normal course of the Second World War," and how could the punishment for the crimes committed (repression) and the deprivation of the opportunity to receive unearned income (dispossession) lead to "gigantic losses"?

[Koshnitsa]

Elementary.
If a person is undeservedly humiliated, exiled, executed by his relatives, it is unlikely that he will conscientiously serve and, moreover, perform miracles of heroism, but he’ll be able to settle accounts with the oppressors.

[Gopnik]

Quote: Claymore

What is the "normal course of the Second World War," and how could the punishment for the crimes committed (repression) and the deprivation of the opportunity to receive unearned income (dispossession) lead to "gigantic losses"?

I already wrote - without a drape to Moscow and Stalingrad with gigantic losses. The punishment for the crime and the deprivation of the opportunity to receive unearned income, most likely, could not lead to gigantic losses.
But political repression and dispossession led.

[Claymore]

Quote: Koshnitsa

If a person is undeservedly humiliated, exiled, executed by his relatives, it is unlikely that he will conscientiously serve and, moreover, perform miracles of heroism, but he’ll be able to settle accounts with the oppressors.

I am not interested in reflections from the "hardly" series.


I asked 2 specific questions.

1 What is the "normal course of the Second World War"?

2 How could the penalties for crimes committed (they are repressions) and depriving a particular category of citizens of the opportunity to receive unearned income (the same dispossession) could lead to huge losses?

Will there be answers?

[Claymore]

Quote: Gopnik

I already wrote

Who?

- without a drape to Moscow and Stalingrad with gigantic losses

Draping one of the warring parties is normal for any war.

But political repression and dispossession led.

Repression - a punishment carried out by state bodies for violation of state law.

Political repression is jargon, which is understood as a punishment provided for an act classified by the criminal code as a "crime against the state."

Dispossession of money — depriving an individual of a class belonging to the methods of generating income (the methods of generating income from the kulaks were speculation, usury, renting out means of production and regular hiring of labor).

Kulakov was deprived of the opportunity to earn income through speculation, usury, renting a joint venture and the regular hiring of workers, thereby transferring them either to the class of peasants (rural residents living from subsistence farming and small-scale production), or to the class of the proletariat (wage earners public enterprises) - i.e. dispossessed.


Accordingly, the question again arises - how could the punishment for crimes committed against the state (they are political repressions) and deprivation of the kulaks of the opportunity to receive unearned income (the same dispossession) could lead to some gigantic losses?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Gopnik

0
how do you know whether it was possible or not ??? Repression and dispossession only harmed the USSR and prevented the normal course of the Second World War, and, as a result, led to gigantic losses.

According to your logic: How do you know that repression and dispossession have damaged the USSR?

[Koshnitsa]

Why did you decide that? There is always the opportunity to do otherwise.
And who made the decisions? Politburo, consisting of people with powerful jaws and low backs sloping back.

[Andrey VOV]

Are you a supporter of the Lambroso theory? And the decisions were made by those people who, at that time, were at the helm of the country, not sent from Mars or another place

[Koshnitsa]

Yes there without Lambroso, full alles.
Nerus, all kinds of dropouts, tumbleweed, in Russian, like Dzhugashvili did not learn to speak normally for 50 years of life among Russians. Well, and so on.
It is hard to deal with such personnel even in a very simple matter, and let alone a country such as Russia lead them there.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Andrey VOV

and at that time, no other way could be done.

The Russian people have long ago said with their wisdom: "If you don't know how, don't take it!", "If you can't, don't torture!"
Moreover, no one has ever instructed to do so.

[Rastas]

The trouble is that the Russian people were "annihilated" under your beloved tsar during the suppression of peasant uprisings. And many of those who died during the repressions, for which you supposedly regret, were the communists you hated so much.

[Koshnitsa]

How many peasants were destroyed under the Tsar, exactly killed?

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

That is, by killing several million of their soldiers, embittered tens of millions, destroying the military and technical elite, Stalin contributed to Hitler's victory in this way, but not the other way around.

Forgot to mention the "bloody gebne".

"Saw, Shura, saw ..." (with)

[Koshnitsa]

So she was also destroyed, having changed several structures, for the 41st year, for example, in the Krasnodar Territory, 52% of investigators, investigators, Karl !, had only primary education.
Can such a system, consisting of illiterate people, work effectively?

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

having changed several staffs, in the 41 year, for example, in the Krasnodar Territory 52% of investigators, investigators, Karl !, had only primary education.

If you really want to "get to the bottom of the truth," I advise you to get acquainted with the works of E. Prudnikova on this topic.
Feel free to read ....
One of her trump cards is a step-by-step presentation of events, both about the struggle in the party after the death of Ilyich, as well as the situation with cadres in all sectors and institutions from the middle of the 20 to the beginning of World War II.

And then draw parallels with today.
Believe me, analogies are like dirt.

[Koshnitsa]

And who is Prudnikoff? There is no such surname in historical science.

[stalkerwalker]

What are the authors that fit your criteria for historical justice?

[Koshnitsa]

Documentation.
Turn on your brain.

[stalkerwalker]

Thanks for the chat.

Communicate with your family with such aplomb.

[Gopnik]

Prudnikova on what topic she defended her thesis for the candidate of historical sciences? Or a historian’s diploma on what topic she wrote and in which university, do not tell me?

[stalkerwalker]

A. Shirokorad did not protect anything. But his monographs on history, as well as on armaments, are famous.
Which of the "historians" you know meets your criterion of "reliability"?

[Gopnik]

Likewise, Fomenko's monographs on history are "well known."
One who is qualified and professionally engaged. Isaev, for example, Zamulin, etc.

[Rastas]

Read Zemskov better. Man is not the least bit Stalinist. On the contrary, during perestroika he worked in the archives for collectivization and repression. Here is his book "Stalin and the People. Why There Was No Uprising" and study it.

[Gopnik]

Zemskov is a good researcher, yes

[Koshnitsa]

outright wimp

[020500]

About rural life, collective farms, Stalinist times, etc., read better Balaev. not in books, so in a blog.

[Koshnitsa]

I'm not a nonsense hunter

[020500]

He has entertaining personal memoirs about collective farm life.

[bober1982]

Yenukidze was not only a prominent party member, but also a friend of Stalin, which the author of the article did not mention, who, of course, knew well all the evil inclinations of his friend (Yenukidze knew about Stalin, he was about Yenukidze), but only in 1935 was a command to persecute Yenukidze.
Moreover, Comrade Yenukidze was not shot right away, he suffered a couple of years as the head of a road office far from Moscow, and only then was liquidated. Stalin loved to drive a man after he fell from the top of the government into a raunchy corner, look at his convulsions and only then shoot. There was such a bad trait in the leader, although Stalin certainly could not refuse wit.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: bober1982

Stalin liked to drive a man after his fall from the heights of power, be sure to a raunchy corner, look at his convulsions and only then shoot

Study the leadership structure of the country and in the CPSU (b) in the USSR in the 30 of the last century, before putting on display your amateurism.

[Andrey VOV]

Gopnik,
The losses of the military precisely are comparable between the USSR and Germany, this is known, and there is no gap tenfold ... but if there had been no industrialization, there would have been no May 9, 1945 ... there would have been no command and administrative system that was at that time there wouldn’t be such a transfer of industry to the east at such times and so on and so forth ....

[Gopnik]

There is nothing and anything close to "comparable". According to the maximum estimate of Overmans, the loss of Germany is 5,3 million. ON ALL FRONTS, according to the minimum estimate of Krivosheev, the loss of the USSR Armed Forces is 9 million. And according to Zemskov, 11 million. And if we take the loss of the entire population, then it becomes completely depressing.
They wouldn’t do deindustrialization - they wouldn’t have to do industrialization. And, in any case, dispossession and repression did not contribute to industrialization, on the contrary.

[stalkerwalker]

And who is Overmans to take his word for it? Leads losses on the basis of what data, for all branches of the German military, including the allies?

The Overmans' calculations are a typical example of "pulling" downward with "forgetfulness" as needed.

[Gopnik]

Well, google and find out who he is and based on what he leads. EU-but without allies, as well as the loss of the Soviet Union lead without allies.

[Andrey VOV]

And who was the USSR ally? Real so powerful ??

[Gopnik]

And you don’t know? UK, USA, for example. Well, the little things all sorts of Romania with Bulgaria

[Andrey VOV]

Yes, to have such allies that one more enemy smiles in the face, and holds the knife behind his back ...

[Gopnik]

Well, this is simply indecent. England and the United States provided gigantic assistance to the USSR, saving millions of lives. For which they bow low.

[stalkerwalker]

How cute!

First, create ALL conditions for the militarization of Hitler's Germany, invest billions of dollars in the military industry of the Third Reich, and give "carte blanche" in Munich. And wait for the moment - whether to bring the USSR under the terms of "Lend-Lease" until 22.06.41.

The Jesuitism of Pure Water ....

And today to equate the USSR and Germany, declaring them "allies", completely rejecting the proposal to create an "anti-Hitler alliance" in 1934, but stubbornly leaning on the "Non-Aggression Pact".

[Gopnik]

The USSR, the kagbe, created the conditions for the militarization of Germany until 22.06.41, actively cooperating and supplying raw materials, gave a carte blanche having concluded the Secret Protocol to the Non-Aggression Pact and the Treaty of Friendship and Border.
The Jesuitism of Pure Water ...

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Gopnik

The USSR, the kagbe, created the conditions for the militarization of Germany until 22.06.41, actively cooperating and supplying raw materials, gave a carte blanche having concluded the Secret Protocol to the Non-Aggression Pact and the Treaty of Friendship and Border.

What are you doing? KGB? In the 30 of the last century?
Feels like "Who forged the sword ..."

Thank. I don’t ask about anything else.

[020500]

Quote: Gopnik

rendered gigantic assistance to the USSR, saving millions of lives

Yes Yes. It was only thanks to them that we won. That was some help, of course. But by no means "gigantic".

[Gopnik]

Not only thanks to them, but thanks to them too. Is a third of the explosives "giant help" or not?

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Gopnik

"giant help" or not?

First, they raised a Nazi beast with an eye to the implementation of the "Eastern question". But the way to advance Germany to the East lay through Poland. England and France "surrendered" Poland, just as they surrendered Czechoslovakia before. They got involved in a war with Germany, they profiled France. And then in the "neutral USA" there was the law on "Lend-Lease", which did not imply automatic assistance to the USSR.

[020500]

Eeee ... Rumunia and Bulgaria? Normal allies ... Yes. Some half of the country was robbed, they reached the city of Stalingrad with the Germans. Only in 1945 they were kicked by the Germans.

[Gopnik]

Well, what are they? I must say "thank you" to the leadership of the USSR that on 22.06.41 we met without allies at all

[020500]

And where would they come from? If the whole (!!!) world was hostile to the USSR solely because of the social system.
And this, by the way, is under the extremely cautious and peace-loving foreign policy pursued by Stalin in 1930.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Well, not that "at all". Already on June 25.06.1941, 1945, out of a sense of camaraderie, he declared war on Germany and until 1939 helped us as much as he could, incl. soldiers. And England, having received shame and war in XNUMX, the Volens-Nolens became our ally. And behind it is the United States.

[020500]

Powerful, still what - Mongolia

[stalkerwalker]

You can google yourself. Bellingcat is not credibility for me.
Moreover, the losses of Germany and the allies at the last stage - winter-spring of 1945 did not have a correct account.
Those. so called "Overmans' losses" are nothing more than "black bookkeeping".

Quote: Gopnik

EU-but without allies, like the loss of the Soviet Union lead without allies.

Come on....
Distort at the card table.
We consider the losses on the Soviet-German front from 22.06.41 to 12.05.1945.

How much the Allies lost in Africa, France, and the Pacific does not matter in this case.

[Gopnik]

Well, since it’s not authority for you, yes, it doesn’t. It is necessary to focus on a thread Mukhin, yes.
They did not have accounting in the sense of breakdown by fronts, and so the figure is quite well known.
Yes, on the Soviet-German front, the losses of the USSR allies must be taken into account - Romanians, Bulgarians, Czechoslovakians, Poles.

[Rastas]

You can read Isaev.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Rastas

You can read Isaev.

Just did not give excerpts, although I respect his works.

Here, after all, as now - Bellingkat and the White Helmets - yes, this is a source of trustworthy - here you have academic ranks, knowledge of chemistry, with doctoral defense, and the ability to use social networks and a video editor.

[020500]

How many were those Czechoslovakians and Poles on the Soviet side? Chekhov one building - 16 people?
And in the Wehrmacht - 300.000.

Poles? in 2 armies - 100.000. The Germans served 400.000 Poles

[Koshnitsa]

You confuse the Poles and Czechs with the local Volksdeutsches, and there the Soviet Volksdeutsches fought.
Who fought in the Wehrmacht is inscribed in German losses.

[020500]

That's just not. You are mistaken here. It is quite a Poles and Czechs were called to the Wehrmacht precisely because they were citizens of the Reich. Slovaks just put their army on the side of the Germans.
But the Russians (generally former Soviet), yes, also in a fair amount of war for the Germans, and not only in the SS gangs such as the Rozak Cossack corps and other legions and divisions, but also as a hevi. Moreover, these Khivis not only controlled the carts and cooked porridge, but sat quite in the trenches with weapons, because they were afraid of the Red Army before shredding. But the Soviet Volksdeutsche in the Wehrmacht just did not call

[Koshnitsa]

They called, the Volksdeutsche fought with Moldova there, where the Germans were able to capture them

[Beringovsky]

Overmans is an ordinary German liar. And the Germans knew how to lie better than anyone else, it was not for nothing that the "main liar" was the German - Munchausen.
And now they are no better - the scandal with the underestimation of Volkswagen emissions by 40 times (!!!!!! and what is trifling) is an example.
It has long been known - no one lies like the losers
Better explain why, with such small losses, it was possible to place millions of people with disabilities, old people and children from the Hitler Youth under arms. Where were the healthy, grown-up Germans hiding in the basements?

[Koshnitsa]

5 million killed for a country like Germany, not a small loss.
Germany collapsed in WWII with 2 million dead

[Andrey VOV]

But why don’t you refer to the same Krivosheev and his estimates of the losses of the Wehrmacht and its allies? As it turns out one-sided, I think, I don’t think here ..

[Koshnitsa]

Krivosheev is a well-deserved forger, to refer to him means to mock the memory of the fallen in that war.

[Gopnik]

The losses of the parties are calculated according to their sources. I, in turn, do not refer to the Germans' estimates of Soviet losses, in turn.

[Koshnitsa]

I do not refer to Krivosheev

[Andrey VOV]

And when did you forgive deindustrialization in Russia ??

[Koshnitsa]

Did it happen at all?

[Andrey VOV]

“If we didn't do de-industrialization, we wouldn't have to do industrialization.” - this is your phrase, I ask, when was de-industrialization in Russia?
Further, and who do you think is not a falsifier7 where did you get the figure of 20 million military personnel?
And there are a lot of such mothers who have lost all their sons in our country, I will give you quite a few examples

[Koshnitsa]

The Bolsheviks started the civil war, so the normal development of Russia is possible only in the case of cleansing from communism. Its consequences are devastating. Is it clear now.
This is the official figure of the Immortal Regiment, more than 19 million servicemen.
And there are a lot of such mothers who have lost all their sons in our country, I will give you quite a few examples // And Krivosheev does not agree with this, like it was not a war, but a fun walk.

[Rastas]

Well, here Chubais and Gaidar started talking to you. Those had the same task. And in the 40s, Hitler also decided to tackle the eradication of communism. You are an ideological follower.

[Gopnik]

Quote: Andrey VOV

And when did you forgive deindustrialization in Russia ??

In 1918 - 1922

[naidas]

from the report of I.V. Stalin on November 6, 1941

Today, the size of the invasion army, which the Nazis from all over Europe gathered, is approximately 8 - EIGHT) million soldiers and officers from about 20 countries. And this huge army lost killed, wounded and captured about 4,5 million soldiers and officers in 4 months of the war !!! About a million per month !!!! It is clear that it was impossible to fully recover these losses, although they managed to achieve this by about half, i.e. About 2 million new soldiers from almost all European countries arrived on the Eastern Front during the summer and fall of 1941. Our combat losses over 4 months of fighting amounted to 1 million 20 thousand wounded, 350 thousand killed, 378 thousand missing.

[Koshnitsa]

why their Nazis regret, and even on the report.

[naidas]

only the Nazis ended by 1942. I had to strain the Vlasovites and others, without them it was no longer possible.

[Koshnitsa]

Saakashvili didn’t say such a thing about the victories of the Georgian gun. This is a national trait.

[naidas]

Napoleon, Hitler, too, didn’t say such things about the victories of their weapons, are you Georgians too?

[Koshnitsa]

Quote: Andrey VOV

The losses of the military in the USSR and Germany are comparable

About 4 million from the Germans and 20 million from ours. Of course, not a dozen times, but compared with the WWI per 1 million Russians, 2 million Austro-Germans.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

About 4 million from the Germans and 20 million from ours. Of course not ten times

Eco has incurred you, my friend ...

Do not be unfounded - lay out the sources. Or did the calculation themselves? On accounts, or on a calculator ...

[Koshnitsa]

35 million people were drafted, and a little more than 15 were awarded the medal "For Victory over Germany".
So much for the 20 million who did not receive the medal.
It is without militias and partisans.

[Nicholas C.]

Quote: Koshnitsa

The losses of the military ... About 4 million from the Germans and 20 million from ours ... 35 million people were drafted, and a little more than 15 were awarded the medal "For Victory over Germany". So much for 20 million who did not receive a medal. This is without militias and partisans.

It is not true. It looks like cheating, as Bandera-fascist propagandists do. There is an upper estimate of USSR losses - 26.6 million.

This obviously includes those who were taken to Germany or captured and stayed in the West, who themselves left the occupied territory, who fought against the USSR, but fell into our losses because they were a citizen of the USSR. Taking into account the mass genocide that the Nazis waged against the civilian population (in my small homeland, specifically the Magyars) and the Bandera, Balts, etc., serving them, the civilian population also died as a result of hostilities - to believe that there were only a few civilian losses millions is impossible. I’m not asking where in your calculations the figures of the notorious Holocaust are. Counting by medals is incorrect - then there were no computers, taking into account there were problems. My father received "For Victory over Germany", but did not receive "Partisan of the Patriotic War", although he had been partisans for about a year.
The error you have is apparently methodical. Z5 million was not called, but mobilized. Total. Moreover, not only in the Red Army, but also in the NKVD, etc., as well as in the economy (emnip, about 6 million). Moreover, this figure is already taking into account the pre-war strength of the Red Army, the NKVD ...

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Nikolai S.

The error you have is apparently methodical. Z5 million was not called up, but mobilized. Total. And not only in the Red Army, but also in the NKVD, etc., as well as in the economy (emnip, about 6 million). Moreover, this figure is already taking into account the pre-war strength of the Red Army, the NKVD ...

22.06.41 million people passed through the Red Army from 01.05.45 to 34, and about 20 million passed through the German armed forces.
The strength of the Red Army and Navy by 22 June 1941 was 4704,41 thousand people. This figure includes not only the list number of the army and navy, but also the number of servicemen who served in the units of civilian departments, being on the content of the People’s Commissariat of Defense (there were 74,95 thousands of them). During the war (until 1 on May 1945), 29 574,9 thousand people were called up to the armed forces, including 805,26 thousand people were called up for training camps even before the start of the war. Thousands of people of repeated recruitment from among those who were surrounded and subsequently re-joined the troops from the liberated territory are not included in the named figure called up during the war. Thus, taking into account the prewar numbers, thousands of people passed through the Armed Forces of the USSR during the war 939,7 34.

[Koshnitsa]

34 279,3 thousands of people .//+ NKVD
And 15 million received medals.
20 million are those who did not return from the battle.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

34 279,3 thousands of people .//+ NKVD

It is all together ...
Yes .... And the province went to dance ....

[Koshnitsa]

These are all called.
Everyone who served in the rear, and who served in the militia and in partisans and on towers, also received warehouses and warehouses.
Here is a science fiction writer Arkady Strugatsky. I wasn’t close to the front, but
1945. Medal "For the victory over Germany." Decree on the awarding of Arkady Strugatsky of May 9, 1945.

[Koshnitsa]

By the beginning of the war (on June 22, 1941), the Red Army and Navy had 4 military personnel on the list. In addition, 826 servicemen and military builders who served in civilian units were on the payroll in the People’s Commissariat of Defense.

Over the four years of the war, another 29 million 574,9 thousand people were mobilized (minus re-drafted). [54] In all, over this period they wore overcoats (taking into account those who had already served at the beginning of the war) 34 thousand people.
Even according to Krivosheevsky data.

[Koshnitsa]

35 million is the Red Army of the Red Army and the NKVD.
This is still without militias and partisans.
No industry. They were awarded the medal "For Valiant Labor in the Home Front"

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

35 million is the Red Army of the Red Army and the NKVD.
This is still without militias and partisans.

Red Army fighters who fell into partisan units, as the occupied territories were liberated, were called up to the Red Army, as were the partisans. The latter, in part, depending on age.
Those. and militias and partisans are counted.

PS Why do not you think - the lope of the Volkssturm died?

[Koshnitsa]

And we count them. Only those who were not drafted into the Red Army, like the same pioneer heroes.
Militias are counted only by those who later joined the Red Army, and there were very few of these, God forbid 10%.
We consider Volkssturm. Like the rest of the Reich.

[Koshnitsa]

to believe that the loss of civilian population of only a few million is impossible. // But is it not enough?

[Koshnitsa]

and he did not receive the "Partisan of the Patriotic War", although he had been partisans for about a year. // That means he did not deserve it, there were restrictions. This medal was by no means given out to everyone.

[Beringovsky]

Koshnitsa, you are just a terrific liar! For example, one of my ancestors was among those mobilized for me - but did not fight, worked in the rear and did not receive medals.
You and 20 million recorded it?

[Koshnitsa]

Beringovsky, do not be rude.
You ask a rebus that no one can solve.
How do I know where he was mobilized for rear work or in the eastern battalions?
If he had served six (6) months in the Red Army or in the Navy or in the NKVD, at least in the fire department he would have been awarded.

[Andrey VOV]

No, you are absolutely wrong, the irretrievable losses of the Red Army, including about 11 million people who died in captivity, the Wehrmacht losses on the Eastern Front, including about 8 million people who died in captivity, are by no means 4 or 20 ... and no need to compare the scale of hostilities, the quantitative and qualitative composition of the armies in the 1st world and second

[Gopnik]

Quote: Andrey VOV

Wehrmacht losses on the Eastern Front, including about 8 million killed in captivity

And not close. Losses perished and dead on all fronts no more than 5,3 million.

[Koshnitsa]

On the Eastern Front, including prisoners, less than 4 million + several hundred thousand allies.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Gopnik

Losses perished and dead on all fronts no more than 5,3 million

On the Soviet-German front from 22.06.41/12.05.1945/XNUMX to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX the Red Army fought not only against Germany, but also the armies of its satellites, including the ever-memorable "forcibly drafted" legionnaires and voluntary units of the Waffen-SS and other rabble.

To exclude the loss of the armies of Romania, Hungary, Finland and other legionnaires from Spain, France, Norway and Sweden with Denmark, Slovakia and the Czech Republic (maybe I forgot whom to list), it means to deliberately set the USSR losses in advance as terrifying, with subsequent negative comments.

[Koshnitsa]

Several hundred thousand of them died on the eastern front, nothing more.

[stalkerwalker]

Come on....
Let’s google, as you yourself recommend.

Only in one of the Baltic states, about 200 thousand in total passed through the Red Army
Through the Wehrmacht and the Waffen-SS - about 250-300 thousand

Who considered the losses of the same Spanish "Blue Division"? Of the 37 Waffen-SS divisions involved in the war, only 12 were German. The rest were the World SS International. There were volunteer legions "Netherlands", "Flanders", "Norway"; volunteer corps "Denmark", British volunteer corps, Italian, French, Hungarian, Croatian, Balkan (Muslim), Walloon, Ukrainian, Belarusian divisions of the Waffen-SS, Finnish volunteer battalion. There were even such exotic formations as the Indian Volunteer Legion, the Caucasian and Central Asian legions of the Waffen-SS.
5 SS Viking Volunteer Division - Wiking (for Danes, Norwegians, Swedes and Finns)
* 13 I Mountain Division SS Handshar - Handschar (Croatian division No. 1).
* 14-I Grenadier Division SS Division "Galicia" (Ukrainian Division No. 1)
* 15th Grenadier Division of the SS (Latvian Division No. 1) (1943 — 1945), headed by SS Groupführer Rudolf Bangerskis.
* 19 Grenadier Division of the SS (Latvian Division No. 2) (1944 — 1945)
* 20 Grenadier Division of the SS (Estonian Division No. 1)
* 21 I Mountain Division SS Skanderbeg - Skanderbeg (Albanian Division No. 1).
* 22-th volunteer cavalry division of the SS "Maria Theresa" (Hungarian).
* The 23 Ist Mountain Division of the SS Kama - Kama (Croatian Division No. 2).
* 25-I infantry division of the SS "Hunyadi" - Hunyadi (Hungarian division number 1).
* 26-I infantry division of the SS SS Hungary - Hungaria (Hungarian division number 2). Until January 29, 1945 was called Gömbesh.
* 27-th Volunteer SS Infantry Division SS "Langemark" - Langemarck (Flemish Division No. 1).
* 28-I volunteer infantry division of the SS “Wallonia” - Wallonien (for the Walloons - the Belgians).
* 29th SS Infantry Division (Italian Division No. 1).
* 30-th Infantry Division of the SS troops (Belarusian division No. 1)
* 33-I infantry division of the SS "Charlemagne" - Charlemagne (French division No. 1).
* 34th SS Volunteer Infantry Division Landstorm Netherlands - Landstorm Nederland (Dutch Division No. 1).
* SS Muslim Division New Turkestan - Muselmanischen SS-Division Neu-Turkistan
* Spanish Legion SS
* Indian Legion Azad Hind
* East Turkic SS compound - Ostturkischen Waffen-Verband der SS (composed of 2500 Tatars, Bashkirs, Karaites and Azerbaijanis)
* Georgian Unions - SS-Waffengruppe Georgien
* Azerbaijan connections - SS-Waffengruppe Aserbeidschan
* Armenian compounds - SS-Waffengruppe Armenien
* Volga-Tatar Legion - Wolgatatarische Legion

Along with this, there were small formations of SS troops that did not reach the size of a full-fledged division:
• 15th Cossack Cavalry Corps of the SS, consisting of the 1th and 2th Cossack Cavalry Divisions of the SS (previously belonged to the Wehrmacht);
• 103-th SS Tank-Fighter Regiment (1-romanian)
• Grenadier Regiment of the SS troops (2-th Romanian);
• Bulgarian anti-tank brigade of SS troops (1-I Bulgarian);
• East Turkic SS unit (remnants of the 1st East Muslim regiment, battle groups Idel-Ural and Crimea);
• Caucasian formation of SS troops (used against partisans);
• Serbian SS Volunteer Corps;
• 101 and 102 I volunteer companies of the SS troops (Spanish) (formed a small Spanish legion on the Eastern Front);
• Volunteer Corps of SS SS "Denmark" (1-th Danish);
• Norwegian SS Legion;
• Norwegian ski and ranger SS battalion;
• The Finnish volunteer battalion of SS troops (as well as the SS volunteer battalion Nordost) (for some time participated in battles along with the 5th Viking Tank Division);
• Indian volunteer SS Legion “Free India” (was used several times on the “Atlantic Val” and in Normandy in the 1944 year);
• British Volunteer Corps SS (British Free Corps, Freecorps, St. George's Legion);
• American SS Volunteer Corps (also known as the George Washington Brigade).

[Koshnitsa]

Through the Wehrmacht and the Waffen-SS - about 250-300 thousand. // Well, and how many of them were specifically killed?
Well, if the fifth.
They were given tiny terms in the USSR and released home.
American SS volunteer corps // consisting of 12 bayonets who fought only on the Western Front? Very big power.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Very big power.

Let's not jerk.

I answered you with your own method - I gave an almost complete list of military units and units that fought on the Eastern Front.
Declaring that they did not suffer losses is more than stupid.
As, however, and consider loss of Germany and allies on the Eastern Front only "according to the Overmans' lists".

[Koshnitsa]

All these formations + allies are several hundred thousand dead.
No more.
Both Romania and Hungary and Finland with Italy fully disclosed their losses.
They are known for national publications.
Losses of SS divisions are also known.
All listings were published in the 50-60 years.
There is no discovery of America.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

All these formations + allies are several hundred thousand dead.
No more.
Both Romania and Hungary and Finland with Italy fully disclosed their losses.
They are known for national publications.
Losses of SS divisions are also known.
All listings were published in the 50-60 years.

Is a calculator at hand?

Be so kind as to inform the sum of the losses of the allies, "voluntary" formations of the national Waffen-SS, etc. legioneroa, add the "overmans' list."

I do not claim that the total loss of the Red Army 11 million is final.
But I do not intend to double it, because the "calculations" by the number of those awarded with the medal "For Victory in Germany" are not only cynical, but also insulting to the memory of the dead наших military personnel on the fields of World War II.

PS My father was also awarded this medal. You insulted me with your cynicism, considering that my grandfather could not get this medal, because died near Leningrad in the autumn of 1941.

[Koshnitsa]

I do not claim that the total loss of the Red Army 11 million is final. // Hallelujah !!!
Krivosheevsky figures, a little more than 8 million people.
My father was also awarded this medal. You insulted me with your cynicism, considering that my grandfather could not get this medal, because died near Leningrad in the fall of 1941.
So the dead were not awarded, and here is my cynicism, which is not there.
Who is awarded, as your father, he returned home alive
And who is not, he died.
About 20 million dead.
Eternal memory to them!

[Koshnitsa]

Is there a calculator at hand? // Why count there? The total losses of allies, non-Reich citizens on the Eastern Front, several hundred thousand people (all reasons)
Of the American 12-bayonet legion, no one died here.

[Gopnik]

Of course, they must be counted, although their losses, compared with Germany, are small. And the losses of the USSR must be added to the losses of Romania, Bulgaria, the Polish troops and other Czechoslovakians. True, their losses are even less.

[Koshnitsa]

+ Yugoslav partisans.
This game can be played on the little things endlessly. The main thing is the loss of the USSR and Germany.

[Koshnitsa]

No, you’re absolutely wrong, the irretrievable losses of the Red Army, including about 11 million people killed in prison // Go to Timashevsk, there is such a city in the Krasnodar Territory, visit the house-museum of Epistinia Fedorovna Stepanova and think about your bravura tsifirki.

about 20 million soldiers alone.
No need to mock the memory of the dead.

[020500]

Quote: Koshnitsa

about 20 million soldiers only

Brad.

[Koshnitsa]

See calculations above

[Sugar Honeyovich]

I ask for help: 4 million from the Germans and 20 million from ours - are these only losses of military personnel? But the Germans have 5 million of those? Then the German losses - 6,25% of the population, the Soviet - 10%. Of the number mobilized: the Germans - 24%, ours - 58%. And did Germany collapse from this? Anemia? Dystrophy?

[Koshnitsa]

You have a mistake in the number of mobilized crept in. In percentage.
Recount.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

There is no mistake. That's right.

[Koshnitsa]

Do you know the strength of the Wehrmacht in May 1945? That's it.
As a percentage, the USSR naturally lost more than Germany. Especially the Russian people, as a reward for this, Stalin exempted Georgians from taxes.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

I know, of course. So if the USSR has a higher percentage of losses, how to explain the outcome of the war? Are the Germans either goners or cowards?

[Koshnitsa]

Exhausted the possibilities of resistance. Germany is over. Her allies occupied, meeting on the Elbe.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Exhausted the possibilities of resistance.

What is it expressed in? That's right - in huge losses, mainly on the Russian front. And since the Germans had superiority in people, it means that the irretrievable losses of Germany and the USSR cannot differ greatly.

That the Allies occupied it was a consequence of the defeats in the USSR.

[Andrey VOV]

Koshnitsa,
And who then do you think should have led the country ???

[Koshnitsa]

Not compatriots Saakashvili and Netanyahu, as it were.

[Andrey VOV]

In your opinion, it turns out there was not a single worthy person at that time who was supposed to lead the country, but for some reason this did not happen and those who led led?
And where does the successors of Saakashvili and Netanyahu mean? Is a Russian scoundrel better than a Ukrainian scoundrel? Or is he a scoundrel, even if he is some kind of native mumba-yumba?

[Koshnitsa]

Yes, there were plenty of people, but first it was necessary to put an end to the idiotic system invented in Germany by socialism.
What is the Ukrainian?

[Andrey VOV]

Declaratively, in the year 91, they put an end to socialism, which is the way out ... it is not clear what ... and what system do you think should have been built?

[Andrey VOV]

Ukrainian-nationality, like Belarus ... Ukraine-outskirts, on the edge ..

[Koshnitsa]

That's how, Ukrainian is a nationality, it turns out?
Maybe Donetsk is a Ukrainian city in this case and Lugansk too?
You do not post with anti-terrorist operation?

[Andrey VOV]

Lugansk, Donetsk, the entire southeast were never Ukrainian, only Nikita Sergeyevich decided to get involved in geography, a narrow snake along the Dnieper, here is Ukraine, and where does the ATO?

[Gopnik]

Donetsk and Lugans wrote to Ukraine was not Nikita Sergeevich

[Andrey VOV]

Yes, maybe I was wrong

[Koshnitsa]

But agree that only an enemy of Russia could give these cities to Ukraine? Say yes.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Koshnitsa

But agree that only an enemy of Russia could give these cities to Ukraine? Say yes.

And gave them the leader of the Workers Army, creating Donetsk province in the so-called Ukraine.

[Andrey VOV]

Yes, and if everything is so simple it is considered how many were called up and how many medals were awarded, and whoever didn’t receive the one died ... then why is there still an acute discussion of losses and not only in our country, it’s impossible to simplify, it’s impossible

[Koshnitsa]

And the majority of the dead were not even buried and the funeral was not sent home, so as not to pay pensions.
Take the Memory Book of your region and be surprised how many are missing there, even in the year 1945.
Socialism means control.

[Gopnik]

Quote: merlin

Did this one grandmother tell you? Infa 100%?

No, the Germans and the Austrians counted and said this. Read with Golovin, everything is there.

[Andrey VOV]

Regarding the medals ... one grandfather fought since 1943, first on the "Katyusha", then the more powerful one, "Andryusha" .. he received a medal "For Military Merit" in 1944, there is also a medal "For Victory over Germany", already after the war I don't remember, the Order of the Patriotic War.
Another grandfather, at the front since March 1944, mortarman, 82 mm ... severely wounded during the assault on Konigsberg, then hospitals and all ... during this time "For Courage" and "For the capture of Konigsberg" ... on the 40th anniversary of victory The Order of the Patriotic War, but there is no medal for the Victory over Germany, I looked specifically in the archives and so on, maybe they simply did not receive an award, but there is no award list.
Another grandfather, he was for the Finnish "Red Star", then during the Second World War, the commander of the author was, along the road of life, there is also the Order of the "Red Star" and a medal for the defense of Leningrad, in peacetime of the Patriotic War and that's all ..

[Koshnitsa]

Believe me, they both had medals on the St. George ribbon "For Victory over Germany".
Check it out on the "Feat of the People".

[Andrey VOV]

Medals and orders of grandfathers are kept with me, and not only on this site but also from other sources I know for sure that these grandfathers did not have medals

[Koshnitsa]

Send me their name and date of birth, and I will check on my databases.

[stalkerwalker]

Koshnitsa,

Quote: Koshnitsa

So the dead were not awarded, and here is my cynicism, which is not there.

I sincerely considered sailors and doctors the greatest cynics.
You have surpassed all, taken together.

How do you live with this level of cynicism?

[Koshnitsa]

This is not cynicism, dear just call me - Ilyich.
This ability is simple to count and read in elementary school.
And so I'm generally a romantic.
But I consider it cynical to explain to the families of the deceased heroes that their relatives are alive, they just disappeared somewhere and did not pay a pension, by the way. This was the main reason.

[Andrey VOV]

To say that the funeral was not specifically made in order not to pay pensions ... is there a documented order, order, decree, paper? Pensions were not paid to the missing and it was more terrible to go missing than die ... well say that

[Koshnitsa]

And you look, how many are missing according to the regional book of memory and how many are lost.
Moreover, up to a third of the missing people were there in the 45th year. For some reason they were not registered as dead.

[vladcub]

Kosnice, ALL war veterans said that it was scary to see the abyss. About this and the site was

[stalkerwalker]

Koshnitsa,
Is this including the 2 th Hungarian?

Either you don’t know how to use the calculator, or cynically lying.

[Koshnitsa]

All including Finns, Romanians, Hungarians.
All those killed on the Eastern Front.
Less than one million people.
And less than 4 million citizens of the Reich.
Military casualties on the Eastern Front.

[Koshnitsa]

Both Hungarian SS divisions were formed at the beginning of 1945 and their losses are added to the military losses of Hungary. During the Second World War, Hungary lost about 300 thousand soldiers killed, and some of these killed Hungarians fell not at the hands of the Red Army.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Hungary lost about 300 thousands of soldiers killed, and some of these killed Hungarians fell not at the hands of the Red Army

Near Voronezh in 42-43 there were no Hungarians.
As, in other things, in the spring they did not defend Budapest ....

Girls dancing interestingly ...

[Koshnitsa]

Near Voronezh in 42-43 there were no Hungarians.
As, in other matters, they did not defend Budapest in the spring .... //
Good joke. They were everywhere, there’s a cemetery near my house, sometimes I’m chasing youngsters from the memorial stone there.
On January 12, 1943, Soviet troops crossed the Don River on ice and broke through the defenses at the junction of the 7th and 12th brigades. The 1st armored brigade, which was subordinate to the German command, was laid back and did not receive an order to counterattack the enemy. The indiscriminate retreat of the Hungarian army was covered by units of the 3rd Corps. The losses of the 2nd Army amounted to about 30 thousand soldiers and officers killed, and the army lost almost all the tanks and heavy weapons. Among the fallen was the eldest son of the regent of the Kingdom - Miklos Horthy. The remaining 50 thousand soldiers and officers were captured. This was the largest defeat of the Hungarian army in the history of its existence.

[Gopnik]

Quote: stalkerwalker

What are you doing? KGB? In the 30 of the last century?
Feels like "Who forged the sword ..."

Thank. I don’t ask about anything else.

What kind of KGB? Is it kidding like that?

[Koshnitsa]

marline,
They awarded not only those who fought, but also those who served in the rear for six calendar months.

[Gopnik]

Quote: Claymore

Draping one of the warring parties is normal for any war.

There is nothing normal in the defeat of the Red Army and the drape to Moscow and Stalingrad.

Quote: Claymore

Repression - a punishment carried out by state bodies for violation of state law.

or for invented violations, or preventively, according to personal data

Quote: Claymore

Political repression is jargon, which is understood as a punishment provided for an act classified by the criminal code as a "crime against the state."

It can be said more simply - under Art. 58, "counter-revolutionary" crimes

Quote: Claymore

Dispossession of money — depriving an individual of a class belonging to the methods of generating income (the methods of generating income from the kulaks were speculation, usury, renting out means of production and regular hiring of labor).

Kulakov was deprived of the opportunity to earn income through speculation, usury, renting a joint venture and the regular hiring of workers, thereby transferring them either to the class of peasants (rural residents living from subsistence farming and small-scale production), or to the class of the proletariat (wage earners public enterprises) - i.e. dispossessed.

Or, to be more precise, those who were appointed to the "kulaks", often simply on the basis of denunciation by neighbors, or for above-average income.
Forgot to add "either to the class of the dead".

Quote: Claymore

Accordingly, the question again arises - how could the punishment for crimes committed against the state (they are political repressions) and deprivation of the kulaks of the opportunity to receive unearned income (the same dispossession) could lead to some gigantic losses?

Easy. Direct losses of millions of potential soldiers and home front workers reduce military and economic potential. The anger of the surviving relatives appointed as "enemies of the people" and "kulaks" leads to a decrease in their motivation to fight for the USSR and an increase in their motivation not to do so, and even to cooperate with the enemy.
Well, the fact that a significant part of the sensible commanders of the Red Army as a result of the repression was either destroyed, fired, or met the war at a lower level than it should have (for example, Rokossovsky, Gorbatov) adversely affected the combat effectiveness of the Red Army.

[Claymore]

Quote: Gopnik

There is nothing normal in the defeat of the Red Army and the drape to Moscow and Stalingrad.

The logic of war itself suggests that warring parties may be defeated in battle, during the period of war, or in war - what's wrong with that?

or for invented violations, or preventively, according to personal data

1 Invented violations are called falsification (and this is a criminal offense), and the "punishment" for them, depending on the situation, is called either a knowingly unjust sentence or a miscarriage of justice.
In this case, it was about repression.

2 According to personal data, it is impossible to condemn simply because the full name and information about the origin do not carry the elements of a crime and do not appear in the Criminal Code as punishable acts.

It can be said more simply - under Art. 58, "counter-revolutionary" crimes

Yes, you can.

And you can also open the Criminal Code of the RSFSR in the version of the 26th year and find out that the 58th (political) article is in the section "crimes of the state", and that the crimes provided for by this article (which are political) are treason, armed uprising, espionage, sabotage, sabotage, call for the overthrow of the soviet power, etc. pranks.

Or, to be more precise, those who were appointed to the "kulaks", often simply on the basis of denunciation by neighbors, or for above-average income.
Forgot to add "either to the class of the dead"

1A denunciation is a message to the authorities about an illegal act.
A statement to the police / police stating that your wallet was stolen is a denunciation.

2 According to the denunciation, they do not dispossess anyone, do not judge and do not repress - a preliminary investigation is carried out on the denunciation.
In the same case, if the denunciation is not confirmed, the scammer has very negative consequences - a deliberately false denunciation is a criminal offense for which the Criminal Code of the RSFSR provided for up to 2 years in prison as a punishment.

3 Fist, as already mentioned above, was determined not by affluence, but by the method of generating income.

4 Only the 1st category of kulaks fell into the "class of the dead" - persons who committed crimes provided for by Article 58.

The direct losses of millions of potential soldiers and home front workers reduce military and economic potential.

Direct "losses" of the criminals of the mentioned potentials, actively opposing the existing state system, not only do not reduce, but increase them.

The anger of the surviving relatives designated as "enemies of the people" and "kulaks" leads to a decrease in their motivation to fight for the USSR

Those convicted of crimes against Soviet power naturally influenced their "surviving" relatives, as a result of which, with a high degree of probability, the latter would have fought not for the USSR, but against it.

Well, the fact that a significant part of the sensible commanders of the Red Army as a result of the repression was either destroyed, fired, or met the war at a lower level than it should have (for example, Rokossovsky, Gorbatov) adversely affected the combat effectiveness of the Red Army.

1 Minor part.

2 The first months of the war showed that the repressed command personnel could not cope with their task.

3 Following the crime should be punished - regardless of ranks and past merits.

[Koshnitsa]

Only the 1st category of kulaks fell into the "class of the dead" // + 7 million who died of hunger. Collective farmers, former Red Army soldiers, Red partisans, poor and middle peasants. + Killed during uprisings and executed and so on.
A real war was fought there in 1929-33. The evidence of the obelisk to the executioners throughout Russia killed by peasants

[020500]

Yeah. Tell us better under what substances you dreamed of the war in 1929 and 7 million who died of hunger?
I would try too. Only, of course, I hope the hallows will be more positive, something highly artistic and enjoyable, such as guria in paradise

[Koshnitsa]

The State Duma announced the numbers of those who died of starvation at 7 million in 1932-33.
According to V.P. Danilov and N.A. Ivnitsky, already in 1929 more than 1300 rebellions were registered in the country1. Not wanting to give their property to collective farms, as well as fearing reprisals that hit the more prosperous part of the village, the peasants slaughtered cattle and cut crops. The Stalinist government decided to crush the resistance of the village by force. A course towards complete collectivization and the elimination of prosperous peasants (kulaks) was proclaimed. Relying on the help of special workers' detachments sent from cities, making extensive use of the power of the OGPU and the army, local authorities drove the peasants into collective farms and robbed their property. Collectivization was accompanied by the mass closure of churches, mockery of the religious feelings of the peasants, which further aggravated the situation in the village.

The peasants responded to the violence with new uprisings and killings of local leaders. In January 1930, 346 mass performances were recorded, in which 125 thousand peasants took part, in February - 736 performances (220 thousand people), in the first two weeks of March - 595 performances (about 230 thousand people) (without Ukraine ) In Ukraine at that time, 500 settlements were swept by unrest. According to N.A. in Crimea and Central Asia, 1930 mass peasant uprisings were recorded, in which at least 1642-750 thousand people took part. In Ukraine, data for which are not included in these calculations, unrest swept more than a thousand settlements in March.

[Claymore]

Quote: Koshnitsa

+ 7 million starvation. Farmers, former Red Army soldiers, Red partisans, poor and middle peasants

1 Fists passing through the 1st category belonged exclusively to fists, and no one else.

2 Seven million people who died of starvation exist only in the version of Goebbels and his followers, and are not confirmed in any way.

Moreover, if we recalculate the mortality of 32-33 years per thousand, then the excess mortality from starvation will be approximately equal to the total human loss in the hardest year for the USSR in the 43rd year, and this is nonsense.

There was a real war in 1929-33

Yes - with banditry, fascism and the exploitation of man by man.

At the same time, despite the ongoing war, the total mortality in this period was, on average, only 20 per mille.
And this is despite the fact that in the last 17 years of the existence of the Russian Empire, the cumulative mortality was equal to, on average, 30 ppm, increasing to 40-45 ppm in the hungry years.

[Koshnitsa]

Anti-Soviet uprising in the Kuban in 1932
about the uprising in the Kuban in the Tikhoretskaya region, which took place at the end of November.

Initially successful, the uprising was brutally suppressed by units of the Red Army. According to newspaper reports, events developed as follows.

The Kuban Cossacks of several villages in the area of ​​the village of Tikhoretskaya organized an armed uprising, led by cossack officers. All capable of carrying weapons came to assembly points to take part in the fight.

The rebels were divided into nine units, distributed over an area of ​​about 300 kilometers. Weapons were obtained by capturing three weapons depots. There were also machine guns and a bomber. Lacked only field artillery.

The local garrisons sympathized with the uprising, and if they did not openly side with the rebels, then they did not come out in defense of the Soviet regime and without resistance let themselves be disarmed.

Preparations for the performance began in early autumn, when food shortages became so acute that the population lost their patience and began to openly attack wagons with bread products traveling from distant villages to the railway.

In the middle of October, alarming days came for the Cossacks: it became known that in Moscow they decided to seize the entire active young population of the region and send it to the north. Obviously, this served as a signal for the performance.

The performance began at 14 versts from Art. Tikhoretskaya. In total, more than 6 thousand people gathered armed Cossacks, and almost the entire male population of the region unarmed.

The rebels allocated a detachment that occupied Art. Tikhoretskaya after a night battle with a small Soviet detachment guarding the station. The Soviet commissars and Chekists were partly killed in battle, partly fled to Rostov.

Having seized Tikhoretskaya and other means of communication, the rebels in all the captured districts liquidated the Soviet regime. For almost a week, the occupied areas were under the control of the rebels.

At first, the weak special-purpose military units sent by the Rostov authorities were defeated with heavy losses: the rebels managed to capture 4 field guns, 11 machine guns, several hundred rifles with cartridges and a large number of dressings in the first three days.

To the place of the main battle, the Soviet government pulled from different places in the Caucasus troops of all arms and two schools of red cadets, commanded by a troika specially sent from Moscow. The rebels fiercely resisted. Each inch of land was defended by them with extraordinary bitterness.

The first five days of the battle, which was quiet only at night, did not yield any results. Bayonet attacks always ended in favor of the rebels.

From the sixth day, an advantage was identified on the side of the Reds, which launched artillery, tanks and even gases.

Despite the lack of weapons, the numerical superiority of the enemy, the large number of wounded and killed, and the lack of food and military supplies, the rebels held on for a total of 12 days and only on the thirteenth day the battle along the line ceased.

As a result, thousands of dead and wounded on both sides. All hospitals are crowded with wounded and crippled.

The reprisal began on the very first day, after the retreat from the Tikhoretskaya rebels. All prisoners captured in battles were shot without exception.

Human corpses were lying around Tikhoretskaya, because the prisoners were killed on the orders of the Red Command at the place where they surrendered, without even bringing them to headquarters.

As soon as the power passed again from the military to the GPU, reprisals began with the civilian population. They shot day and night all against whom there was the slightest suspicion of sympathy for the rebels. There was no mercy for anyone, nor children, nor old people, nor women, nor even seriously ill.

Stalin's order read briefly: send all the active Cossack population to the north in a concentration camp.

In total, about 18 thousand people were collected for deportation, gathered from all over the region and who were waiting for transport at the railway station station.

At most, you can send 200-300 people. per day, due to lack of rolling stock, food, coal, etc.

While the whole army of prisoners lives in the open air, partly in dug-out huts, partly on bare ground in terrible conditions.

Among the rebels were several dozen German colonists.

[Beringovsky]

Where did this fiction come from?
From Tkachev's Secret History of the Kuban?

And why did you forget to insert the episode with the "shootings" in the square - how every day "200 people were herded into the square" and "they were mowed down with machine guns"
Shame on such a frank shnyaga was to insert? I understand, I understand
Do you have documents confirming this nonsense? There are none, otherwise you would bring them

[Beringovsky]

Well, after that, it’s absolutely epic in Tkachev’s
"There are no longer with us those who had at least some kind of involvement in those events. There is no one (!!!!! No one, Karl, NO ONE !!!!!) to show us the mass graves of killed fellow countrymen. There is no one to tell whose bones lie there. . Covers time with a white shroud ... blah blah. "
so simple - they say you can’t prove anything ...
That, none of the many thousands of relatives and fellow villagers remembered the mass graves with "thousands" of victims near the village !!!!
Do you think it’s serious to consider this nonsense outside of a specialized medical institution? !!!
It's not even funny ... it's just fever delirium

[Koshnitsa]

So 90 years have passed since then, the rebels are still not officially rehabilitated.

[Koshnitsa]

But the Orders of the Red Banner of the RSFSR and the USSR, taken from the killed ChONovtsy still float on the "black market" and the KGB signs too. So, someone raised them.

[Koshnitsa]

The uprising in Tikhoretskaya is a well-known fact. And there is nothing to mock.

[Beringovsky]

I am not a mocker, there are repressed people in my family too and it would never have crossed my mind
I am against speculation and even more so

[Beringovsky]

I am not a mocker, there are repressed people in my family too and it would never have crossed my mind
I am against speculation and even more rampant fantasies

[Koshnitsa]

And this is despite the fact that in the last 17 years of the existence of the Russian Empire, the cumulative mortality rate was equal to, on average, 30 ppm, increasing to 40-45 ppm in the hungry years. // This is a lie. In the Russian Empire under Nicholas, there were no 2 hungry years at all.

[Claymore]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Anti-Soviet uprising in the Kuban in 1932

And why this episode of banditry, the leaders of which, as expected, were former white and tsarist officers?

Robbery of weapons depots (part 4 of article 226 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation), organization and participation in armed gangs (parts 1, 2 of article 209 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation), murder of officials in execution (105 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation), violent seizure of power (278 of the Criminal Code RF), armed rebellion (279 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation) - such figures in the Caucasus are still being driven in the mountains.

... prisoners were killed on the orders of the Red Command at the place where they surrendered, without even bringing them to headquarters ...

Obviously, they were not "killed by order of the command", but shot by the verdict of the emergency court - by the verdict of the previously mentioned troika, "specially sent from Moscow."

There was no mercy for anyone, nor children, nor old people, nor women, nor even seriously ill.

Yeah - only the authors of this epic forgot about babies, who were personally delivered to Stalin for lunch.

Only one thing remains unclear - who exactly told this terrible story, if all the unreliable witnesses were cut out without being brought to headquarters.

Stalin's order read briefly: send all the active Cossack population to the north in a concentration camp.

Order to the studio.

Quote: Koshnitsa

It's a lie. In the Russian Empire under Nicholas, there were no 2 hungry years at all.

Exactly - these were not hungry years, but years of long posts.

“Stop, gentlemen, deceive yourself and play tricks with reality!” Does such purely zoological circumstances as the lack of food, clothing, fuel and basic culture of the Russian common people mean nothing? ... Doesn’t our shameful, nowhere to be seen infant mortality mean anything in which the vast majority of the living masses do not even live to a third of the human age? "
Mikhail Osipovich Menshikov, “From letters to neighbors, 1915.

[Koshnitsa]

And why this episode of banditry, the leaders of which, as expected, were former white and tsarist officers? //
This feat is simple, people did not agree to dutifully die like cattle, but took up arms and fought.
It is difficult for you to understand, genetics and education are different.
By the way, they killed a lot of Reds, as evidenced by the memorial plaque in the Ordzhinikidze school.

[Claymore]

Quote: Koshnitsa

This feat is simple

Citing assassinations as a feat, perceiving exploitation (the essence of extortion and theft) as a norm, citing unconfirmed texts as justification for the position, rolling emotions into the plane and answers that are inconsistent with questions speak of a small mind (this is at best).

Once again - what was the result of this artistically described episode of banditry, for which even under current legislation would threaten a tower with a replacement for life?

Where is the order of Stalin mentioned in this boiled fantasy?

Why make an assertion that under Nicholas there were no hunger years, if this is not objective?

[Koshnitsa]

the perception of exploitation (the essence of extortion and theft) as a norm // Is this serious?
Calling the killings a feat // Every nation has the right to rebellion
Once again, what was the purpose of this artistically described episode of banditry, for which even under the current legislation would threaten a tower with a replacement for life? // Not everyone is ready to obediently fulfill the will of the mountain chimpanzees, settled in the Kremlin. Is it clear now?
Not only the victims, but also the executioners paid for collectivization with their lives. However, most of them would have been sprayed anyway.
Why make the assertion that under Nicholas there were no hunger years, if this is objectively not so? // Hunger in the Soviet sense, leading to mass mortality, was not.

[Claymore]

Quote: Koshnitsa

the perception of exploitation (the essence of extortion and theft) as a norm // Is this serious?

Should I give a lecture on what is cost?

Every nation has the right to revolt.

The bandos who shot at the representatives of the Soviet power were not a people.

Not everyone is ready to obediently fulfill the will of the mountain chimpanzees that have settled in the Kremlin. Is it clear now?

Yes, it is clear that not everyone has risen intellectually and morally from the level of a monkey to the level of a person and are ready to live their work, recognizing other people as equal to themselves.

For collectivization was paid with the lives of not only the victims, but also the executioners

Collectivization is just an enlargement of farms, leading to an increase in labor productivity - it was not necessary to pay for it with lives.

There was no famine in the Soviet sense, leading to mass mortality.

There is no famine in the Soviet, imperial, or any other sense.
There is only one understanding of hunger - a forced long-term decrease in the consumption of the quantity and quality of calories, proteins, fats and carbohydrates to a level that is insufficient for a normal existence.

The situation with insufficient consumption was observed in the Republic of Ingushetia constantly, leading to a steadily increased mortality rate that was 1.5 times higher than the European average.
And in the years of crop failure, the mortality rate increased from an average of 30 ppm to 40 to 45 (in 32-33, the mortality rate briefly jumped to the traditional 40 ppm for RI).

[Koshnitsa]

But in RI there was no death from starvation, in the last 25 years, anyway.

[Claymore]

Quote: Koshnitsa

But in RI there was no death from starvation, in the last 25 years, anyway.

So the monarchist Menshikov, who wrote about the lack of food and exceptional mortality, lied primitively?

And Alexander Nikolayevich Naumov, who held the post of Minister of Agriculture in 1915-16, declaring that "Russia actually does not get out of a state of hunger in one or another province, both before the war and during the war." - lied too?

And Tolstoy and Engelhardt lied?


Maybe you and your kind, on the advice of the same Menshikov, should stop ceasing to deceive yourself and be cunning with reality?

[naidas]

tell us about the Tambov feat, people refused to pay taxes., the authorities had to force them to force.

[Koshnitsa]

Not taxes, but lawlessness, accompanied by acts of genocide. Who killed the grandfather at Zoe Kosmodemyanskaya? That's it ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: Claymore

Seven million people who died of starvation exist only in the version of Goebbels and his followers, and in no way are confirmed.

It is installed the supreme power of Russia... Your phi is worth nothing.

Quote: Claymore

Moreover, if we recalculate the mortality of 32-33 years per thousand, then the excess mortality from starvation will be approximately equal to the total human loss in the hardest year for the USSR in the 43rd year, and this is nonsense.

Nonsense is the death of a MILLION man with cannibalism and corpse-eating such a tragedy nnever been anywhere in the world, cut a bundle on your nose!

In the Soviet "history", "press" and "statistics" it did NOT exist AT ALL! no word, no condolences. nothing

Quote: Claymore

Yes - with banditry, fascism and the exploitation of man by man.

NO other country in the world had so many "enemies of the people" as the so-called. "people's" power. Which suggests that the enemies were just not those who were named by them.
Moreover, ALL laws that the government itself adopted were violated. What is OFFICIALLY recognized and CONDEMNED by the very state of the USSR and the RSFSR, the Russian Federation

Quote: Claymore

At the same time, despite the ongoing war, the total mortality in this period was, on average, only 20 per mille.

Those. There were "normal" losses, right?

Quote: Claymore

And this despite the fact that in the last 17 years of the existence of the Russian Empire, the cumulative mortality was equal to, on average, 30 ppm, increasing to 40-45 ppm in the famine.

And here "despite"?
Who said that in RI, if it existed in 1941, mortality would not have been BELOW a conscience? And she would have been lower - in her there was NOT a trace of famines of 33 g and ate in it MUCH MUCH MORE AND BETTER than in the USSR.

[020500]

Quote: Olgovich

This is established by the supreme power of Russia. Your phi is worth nothing.

This authority has generally established a lot of things. She is this power and on her knees in front of Polish relics with flowers crawled.

What else to expect from the last of Vlasov?

[Olgovich]

Quote: 020500

This authority has generally established a lot of things. She is this power and on her knees in front of Polish relics with flowers crawled.

What else to expect from the last of Vlasov?

You are insulting the HIGH legislative power of the Russian Federation, elected by the PEOPLE of the Russian Federation.

[Claymore]

Quote: Olgovich

It is installed the supreme power of Russia

How did the "supreme power of Russia" establish that supermortality from hunger in several regions in 32-33 was the same as overall mortality (hunger + disease + combat loss) throughout USSR in the 43rd?

Please open the installation algorithm.

Your "fi" is worth nothing

Judging by the flag - not mine, but yours.

Nonsense is the death of a MILLION man with cannibalism and carcass

The theme of hunger in RI is beyond the scope of this conversation.

In the Soviet "history", "press" and "statistics" it did NOT exist AT ALL! no word, no condolences.

The Soviet statistics that existed under the heading "secret" are as comprehensive and complete as possible (in contrast to the fragmentary statistics of the Republic of Ingushetia)
Therefore, to denounce the Soviet power, one should not strain one's imagination and be perverted by inventing something that does not exist - it is enough to cite statistics from the now declassified statistics of state bodies of the USSR (but “something” is always interfering with the accuser).

NONE of the countries in the world had so many "enemies of the people" as the so-called. "people's" power.

Courts of the so-called From the 21st to the 53rd year (for 32 years), the "people's" authorities passed less than 10 million criminal sentences, including sentences to German servicemen, Vlasovites and other forest brothers.
In the Russian Federation, with a smaller population, from the 93rd to the 18th year (over 25 years) more than 25 million criminal sentences were passed, although convicted murderers, terrorists and members of the organized crime group were not called enemies of the people.

Moreover, ALL laws that the government itself adopted were violated.

An example of a violation in a studio.

Those. There were "normal" losses, right?

Kindly give a definition of the phrase "normal losses", as well as the rationale for this definition - after that I can answer whether they were normal or not.
In the meantime, I will rephrase and repeat - in spite of the banditry, theft and food problems typical for the 1st half of the 30s, the mortality rate in this period was 1.5 times lower than in the Republic of Ingushetia 20-40 years before.

And here "despite"?

In common sense.

Who said that in RI, if it existed in 1941, mortality would not have been BELOW a conscience?

Comparative statistics of infectious diseases.

And she would be lower

Talk about smallpox?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Claymore

How did the "supreme power of Russia" establish that the excess mortality from hunger in several regions in 32-33 was the same as the total mortality (hunger + disease + combat losses) throughout the USSR in 43?

Are you having problems with the Russian language? The highest legislative power of the Russian Federation (without quotation marks ", in quotation marks are losers," Bolsheviks ") established the fact of death of 7 million people from hungerto 32-33 g

Quote: Claymore

Judging by the flag - not mine, but yours.

My opinion coincides with Statement State Duma selected ALL the people of Russia. And it costs more than the opinion of dull losers.
My flag was arranged by the Bolsheviks, who came up with Russian Bessarabia, never existed .... Moldova.

Quote: Claymore

The theme of hunger in RI is beyond the scope of this conversation.

Certainly: we are talking ONLY about wild famines in the USSR. I repeat, if it didn’t reach: Nonsense is the death of MILLIONS of people with cannibalism and corpse eating, which occurred in 22,25,33,47gg.

Quote: Claymore

Existed under the heading "secret" Soviet statistics are maximally comprehensive and complete (as opposed to fragmentary statistics of RI)

It is false, sketchy, opportunistic, biased and simply FUNNY (which demographic data alone are worth)

Quote: Claymore

Therefore, to denounce the Soviet power, one should not strain one's imagination and be perverted by inventing something that does not exist - it is enough to cite statistics from the now declassified statistics of state bodies of the USSR (but “something” is always interfering with the accuser).

What are you, dear man? Repeat again? Once again: a hunger of unprecedented in the history of mankind 33 g was NOT in the press, nor at congresses, nor in any published documents (except for an endless monstrous lie)

Quote: Claymore

Courts of the so-called From the 21st to the 53rd year (for 32 years), the "people's" authorities passed less than 10 million criminal sentences, including sentences to German servicemen, Vlasovites and other forest brothers.

T.N. The "people's" power did without courts, which were not courts either.

Quote: Claymore

Kindly give a definition of the phrase "normal losses", as well as the rationale for this definition - after that I can answer whether they were normal or not.

"By herself, by herself!" (C) for you mentioned the mortality of 42 g as!,

Quote: Claymore

In the meantime, I will rephrase and repeat - despite the characteristic 1st half of the 30s banditry, theft and food problems, mortality during this period was in 1.5 times lowerthan in RI for 20-40 years before.

Who needs mossy silly agitation?
See

Quote: Claymore

RџSЂRё sound sense.

And what does (it) have to do with it .... You?

Quote: Claymore

Comparative statistics of infectious diseases.

Once again, if it didn’t come up again: WHO said under RI, if it existed in 1940, would the statistics be worse? RI NEVER had your hunger 22, 25,33 g - and this suggests that she, a statistician, would be BETTER.

Quote: Claymore

Talk about smallpox?

About abortion (here yours made an indisputable FIRST place in the world in destroying your population)

[Claymore]

Quote: Olgovich

Are you having problems with the Russian language? The highest legislative power of the Russian Federation (without quotation marks ", in quotation marks these are losers," Bolsheviks ") established the fact of death of 7 million people

Obviously, this is your problem - not only with the Russian language, but also with the perception of the semantic content of the printed text.

1 There are no concepts of "supreme power" and "supreme legislative power" - there are concepts of "head of state" and "supreme bodies of state power" (accordingly, you do not know the Russian language)

2 I asked how the "supreme power of Russia" (precisely in quotation marks) established that there were 7 million deaths from hunger, and proposed to describe the way in which the number of the dead was established - in response, I received a repetition of the already made statement, and not an adequate answer on the merits of the question with a description of the method (accordingly, your inability to adequately perceive the semantic content of the text is evident).

My opinion coincides with Statement State Duma selected ALL the people of Russia

Your opinion coincides with the opinion of the EP faction, riveting anti-constitutional laws - i.e. with the opinion of criminals.

Certainly: we are talking ONLY about wild famines in the USSR

Yes, you are talking only about them, point blank not wanting to see either the famine that constantly took place in the Republic of Ingushetia, or the causes of famine in the USSR, originating in the economic and cultural condition of the Republic of Ingushetia.

Nonsense is the death of a MILLION man with cannibalism and carcass

Nonsense is something without meaning, something impossible.

Starvation in the USSR, as well as high mortality with cases of eating parts of the human body, alas, had a place to be (however, as in the Republic of Ingushetia), therefore, the death of millions from hunger and the accompanying negative phenomena cannot be nonsense.

She is false, sketchy, opportunistic, biased and simply FUNNY

Statements of this kind require evidence - we are waiting.

What are you, dear man?

I about the fact that the statements of the last Goebbels do not fight with statistical data and common sense.

T.N. "people's" power did without courts, which were also not courts

It is immediately clear that the formation of admirers of crispy rolls leaves much to be desired.

"She herself!"

The drain on this issue is counted.

Who needs mossy silly agitation?

Crispbread lovers who cite evidence-based graphics hypothesis ADH.

And what does (it) have to do with it .... You?

Despite the fact that I have everything in order - his presence does not allow me to say that the mortality per thousand caused by hunger in certain regions in peacetime can be comparable to the total mortality in the whole territory during the war.

Once again, if it didn’t come up again: WHO said under RI, if it existed in 1940, would the statistics be worse?

Once again, if it did not work out again - this is evidenced by the comparative statistics of infectious diseases of the Republic of Ingushetia.

In RI, NEVER was your hunger 22, 25,33 g

Statements by contemporaries and a mortality rate that is 1.5 times higher than the European average say directly the opposite.

About abortion

It is about smallpox, because the situation connected with it illustrates perfectly the trends whose results would have existed in the 40th year if the Bolsheviks had not appeared and the power had not passed to the Soviets.

So what - talk?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Claymore

There are no concepts and "supreme legislative power" - there are concepts "head of state" and "supreme bodies of state power" (accordingly, you do not know the Russian language)

Remember: the Federal Assembly (bicameral parliament) de jure has supreme legislative authority In Russian federation .

Quote: Claymore

I asked how the "supreme power of Russia" (exactly in quotation marks) established that there were 7 million people who died of hunger,

Don't remember yourself already? Your question was different - about the "comparable" mortality in 43 year .
Therefore, the THIRD TIME I repeat: the State Duma has established fact starvation mortality ONLY for 32-33 g. This fact was established by a special commission.

Quote: Claymore

(accordingly, your inability to adequately perceive the semantic content of the text is evident).

What you fill the "text" of meaning, alas, is not enough for you.

Quote: Claymore

Your opinion coincides with the opinion of the EP faction riveting unconstitutional laws - i.e. with the opinion of criminals.

Who recognized the "anti-constitutional", who recognized the United Russia as "criminals" (facts)?
No them?
Then you are just a slanderer and a liar.

Quote: Claymore

Yes, you are talking only about them, point blank not wanting to see either the famine that constantly took place in the Republic of Ingushetia, or the causes of famine in the USSR that are taking its beginning in the economic and cultural condition of the Republic of Ingushetia.

Oh so you are just an unlucky dancer Also illiterate: you should read your secretaries, who boasted in January-February 1933 that even the poor have become WELL-BEING people (during these months millions of wealthy "people" have been weer)

Quote: Claymore

Nonsense is something without meaning, something impossible.

Starvation in the USSR, as well as high mortality with cases of eating parts of the human body, alas, had a place to be (however, as in the Republic of Ingushetia), therefore, the death of millions from hunger and the accompanying negative phenomena cannot be nonsense.

Liar, famine on a scale of 33 years is an impossible event ANYWHERE in the world and never, especially in the middle of the 20th century, except under the "people's" government. Not in Russia or anywhere else.
Give the facts of cannibalism, the more massive in RI

Quote: Claymore

Statements of this kind require evidence - we are waiting.

You have written ALREADY: -demography. What's not clear?

Quote: Claymore

It is immediately clear that the formation of admirers of crispy rolls leaves much to be desired.

Peskohrustam, with their sand streaming from everywhere, no longer remember FACTS

Quote: Claymore

The drain on this issue is counted.

Quote: Claymore

Despite the fact that everything is fine with him

No, it’s not ok, if the famine is okay

Quote: Claymore

Once again, if it did not work out again - this is evidenced by the comparative statistics of infectious diseases of the Republic of Ingushetia.

Does not say, because RI WASN'T IN 1940 and there is nothing to compare. And if there were, her indicators would be MUCH better than in 1913 and conscientious. AGAIN did not get it?

Quote: Claymore

Statements by contemporaries and a mortality rate that is 1.5 times higher than the European average say directly the opposite.

FACTS lead mass mortality from hunger, i.e. DOCUMENTS on the number of deaths from starvation.
Even Soviet "scientists" did NOT write about it.

Quote: Claymore

It is about smallpox, because the situation connected with it illustrates perfectly the trends whose results would have existed in the 40th year if the Bolsheviks had not appeared and the power had not passed to the Soviets.

Your "would" is not worth anything.
Your result is the Russian Cross. The result of Russia is an increase of the population by 50% in 22 years.
Cut it into a bundle!

PS Regarding your nonsense:

for the 1st half of the 30s banditry, theft and food problems, mortality during this period was 1.5 times lowerthan in RI 20-40 years before

.
have you calmed down already?
Compare also the infant mortality rate in the Republic of Ingushetia and the "blessed2" 30th. Catastrophe ...

[Claymore]

The Federal Assembly (bicameral parliament) de jure has supreme legislative authority

You again demonstrated your inadequacy of thinking, lack of knowledge of the Russian language and gaps in education.

The phrase "higher legislative power" automatically presupposes the presence of some lower legislative power, but in the Russian Federation such does not exist.

In the Russian Federation there are higher (they are also federal) bodies of state power, which are figuratively referred to as Power and are divided into legislative, executive and judicial powers.

Do not remember yourself already?

I remember everything perfectly and once again I ask again - how (in a way, by way, sequence of actions, algorithm ...) was it established by the "supreme power of Russia" that 30 million people died from the famine of the 7s?

The answer will be, or do you continue to twist the hula hoop?

Who recognized the "anti-constitutional", who recognized the United Russia as "criminals"

So double standards have appeared.
You should ask yourself this question every time it comes to your mind to call the Soviet government criminal.

And now educational program.
The concept of crime exists in 2 forms - de jure and de facto.
De jure, the criminal determines (or appoints) the court, and de facto the criminal determines the fact of violation of applicable law.
The law on privatization (unambiguously leading to higher prices), the introduction of a "flat" tax scale (in fact, shifting the tax burden onto the shoulders of the needy part of the population), the pension reform (depriving every able-bodied citizen of a part of their income), etc. delights directly contradict Articles 2, 7, 18 and 55.2 of the Constitution - that is, de facto, their adoption and introduction is a crime (violent change of the constitutional order).

Would you read your secretaries

And you would not have to engage in traditional speculation, but think about what exactly at that time was understood as security, how much this understanding corresponds to today's understanding of security, and what would happen to a modern wealthy person if he independently destroyed part of his sources of income.

Liar 33 Years Famine - An Impossible Event

Comparison of the mortality rate per thousand in the Republic of Ingushetia and the USSR, as well as the testimonies of contemporaries, indicate directly the opposite.

Give the facts of cannibalism, the more massive in RI

I will do this right after you answer the question - is there a statistical database of the Republic of Ingushetia, which in its completeness at least remotely corresponds to the statistical base of the USSR?

It is written to you ALREADY: - demography

Are you having a dyslexia attack again?
Okay, I'll paraphrase - where are the facts proving your assertion that the statistics of the USSR that existed for official use are "false, fragmentary, conjunctive, biased"?

Peskohrustam, with their sand streaming from everywhere, no longer remember FACTS

Open the dictionary of legal terms and see what court is and what it is.

No, it’s not ok, if the famine is okay

Hunger is an emergency with specific causes.
Death from hunger is a tragedy in social terms and a trend with a specific vector in statistical terms.
Misinterpreting the causes of hunger, its denial and overstatement / underestimation of the number of deaths for the sake of a political position is a meanness for which, in a decent society, people lose their teeth at best.

Does not say, because RI WASN'T IN 1940 and there is nothing to compare

Says because In the 196 years of the Republic of Ingushetia, there were long-term social trends of a specific orientation.

And if there were, her indicators would be MUCH better than in 1913 and conscientious. AGAIN did not get it?

This statement directly contradicts the above and
clearly indicates your inadequacy.

FACTS lead mass mortality from hunger, i.e. DOCUMENTS on the number of deaths from starvation.

As soon as you name the authority of the Republic of Ingushetia, which was engaged in the collection of statistical data.

Your "would" is not worth anything

And your unequivocal allegations?

Compare also infant mortality in the Republic of Ingushetia and "blessed2" 30th

Compared - in the 30s, 2 times lower.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Claymore

You again demonstrated their inadequacy of thinking, lack of knowledge of the Russian language and gaps in education.

Who are you, so that your ratings are worth something? . Therefore, your assessment is nothing. Spare me from them.

Learn concepts like Legislative Meetings of Moscow, St. Petersburg, etc.,., who choose the same as the State Duma, Legislation Moscow, St. Petersburg, etc.

The Legislative Assembly is included in the system of government bodies based on the Constitution of the Russian Federation, principles of democracy, separation of powers, independence of the branches of government and delimitation of powers between state authorities of the Russian Federation and St. Petersburg

Quote: Claymore

I remember everything perfectly and once again ask again - how (in a way, way, sequence of actions, algorithm ...) it was found that 30 million people died from the hunger of the 7s?

Do not remember: you pulled in ... 43 year.
Как supreme legislative power determined- You are answered: read several times, if one does not reach, Read Statement itself Thoughts Laziness?.

Quote: Claymore

So double standards have appeared.
You should ask yourself this question every time it comes to your mind to call the Soviet government criminal.

Not me, my dear man, but the SOVIET AUTHORITY itself came to the "head" to call crimes-crimes: see Legislative acts of the USSR 89-91.

Quote: Claymore

and the de facto offender determines the fact of violation of applicable law.

Learn WHAT "de facto" means - it is something that exists, is real, but NOT definitee law. Everything not determined by the Law in the manner established by it, but determined lawlessly some stamps, respectively, in the furnace.

Quote: Claymore

And you would not have to engage in traditional speculation, but think about what exactly at that time was understood as security

Give the concept of a "wealthy person" of that time (and other times and countries), implying his swelling and death from hunger. Only clearly and with an indication of the author-secretary, the king, etc.

Quote: Claymore

Comparison of the mortality rate per thousand in the Republic of Ingushetia and the USSR, as well as the testimonies of contemporaries, indicate directly the opposite.

Your chatter is empty, I repeat again -Not interesting: NOBODY knew a famine on the scale of 33 years, neither in the entire 1000-year history of Russia, nor in the history of the whole WORLD. Even the Bolshevik "scientists" -propanandists did not dare to lie about this.

Quote: Claymore

I will do it right after

You lied about cannibalism in RI and more ..... conditions set? What's hard? You are not the first, take it easy: study on Istmath the topic of how the "critic" and the company fooled this. Like you.

Quote: Claymore

Are you having a dyslexia attack again?

Who hurts something, yes ...

Quote: Claymore

Well, I rephrase - where are the facts proving your claim that existed for official use of the statistics of the USSR "false, sketchy, conjunctive, biased"?

Oh, the "service" has already appeared With what fright "office"? We talked about the public. And why, by the way, are secrets from the people at the "people's power?"

Quote: Claymore

Open the dictionary of legal terms and see what court is and what it is.

Do not open anything: it will not help you!

Quote: Claymore

for which in a decent society, at best, they lose their teeth

And how are you without .....

Quote: Claymore

Says because In the 196 years of the Republic of Ingushetia, there were long-term social trends of a specific orientation.

He doesn’t say, because everything changed very quickly (medicines, methods, science, etc.)

Quote: Claymore

Right away

You do not can - Confirm your own empty chatter.

Quote: Claymore

And your unequivocal allegations?

Regarding your nonsense:

for the 1st half of the 30s, banditry, theft and food problems, mortality during this period was 1.5 times lower than in the Republic of Ingushetia 20-40 years before

.
have you calmed down already?

Quote: Claymore

Compared - in the 30s, 2 times lower.

Liar: Russia, MILITARY 1915 - 240 people, USSR in PEACEFUL 1933 - 300 deaths, in peace 37 g - 260 people.
The excess over France in this indicator in the Republic of Ingushetia in 1915 was 1,71 times; in the peaceful 33 g of the USSR, FIVE times! And even in 1986, this excess - in 2,4 times (compare with 1,71 in 1915).
Wildness ....
And once again I recall your result for the shortest period: the Russian Cross. RI-was completely different ...

[Claymore]

Quote: Olgovich

Who are you, so that your ratings are worth something?

Look in the mirror and ask this question to your reflection.

Learn concepts such as the Legislative Assembly of Moscow, St. Petersburg

Dear amateur. The authorities of cities, territories, regions and republics are state authorities subjects and have no relation to the highest (federal) government bodies RFthat you call the "higher power of Russia"then" the highest legislative authority "

As the supreme Legislative power determined, you are answered: read several times

Your next drain is counted.

Not to me, dear man, but to the SOVIET AUTHORITY itself

You, dear man, because since the year 77 no Soviet power has existed.

Learn WHAT de facto means

De facto, dear amateur, means actual availability.
The de facto individual becomes a criminal at the time he commits a crime under the law, and not at the time of pronouncing a court verdict.

Give the concept of "wealthy person" of that time

Obviously, 15 thousand years ago, the one who had a warm skin, a cave and the opportunity to devour once a day was provided.
Obviously, in RI the peasant who had the opportunity to eat whitewashed cabbage soup was a well-to-do man (for "hunger is not when the bread was not ugly, but when the quinoa was not ugly").
Obviously, in the 30s, the villager who was able to afford to slaughter a cow in the late 20s and was not forced to work as a fist was provided for.

More creative suggestions will be?

Your chatter is empty, I repeat again -NOT interesting: NO ONE knew the famine of 33 years

How did you determine this?

You lied about cannibalism in RI and more ..... conditions set?
You can NOT confirm your own idle chatter

You cannot give a link and are afraid to answer this question for a very simple reason - in the Republic of Ingushetia there was no regular comprehensive demographic statistics.
Statistical data was collected by enthusiasts exclusively in the European part of the Republic of Ingushetia from records in parish books where only the death of baptized people was recorded, and the death record of an unbaptized child was not made (i.e., the average mortality rate of 30 ppm was actually underestimated).

Thus, your behavior directly indicates that you do not care about the real tragedies associated with the situation of peasants in the Republic of Ingushetia and the USSR - you are only interested in the statement of a schizophrenic idea about the positivity of a class and estate society in which you fantasize yourself by no means as a peasant (for this a decent society is deprived of not only teeth, but also the ability to move)

As for cannibalism, here's a selection of episodes that have become famous in the region, enjoy - https://skaramanga-1972.livejournal.com/332586.html

Oh, the "service" has already appeared. What a fright

Your tendency to wag your hips is already well known to me. Therefore, put off your spectacular dance until better times and answer the question.

Don't open anything

Do not wag your hips with strangers.

He doesn’t say, because everything changed very quickly

Yes? Well, tell us more about this - how, for example, over the past 117 years of RI's existence, has the situation with mortality from smallpox changed?

have you calmed down already?

I’m calm - it is you who move your hips all the time dancing from direct questions.

Liar: Russia, MILITARY 1915 - 240 people, USSR in PEACEFUL 1933 - 300 deaths, in peace 37 g - 260 people.

1st. One must be absolutely inadequate in order to draw the war going on in the territory of foreign states to infant mortality in a state in whose territory there is no war.
2nd. One must be absolutely inadequate in order to be trumped by comparing statistical data on the European part of the Republic of Ingushetia with statistical data on the entire USSR.
3rd 240 - the average mortality in 33 provinces of the European part in 1911-15, not distinguished by social and natural disasters.
At the same time, in a really problematic period of 32-36 years, the average infant mortality in the entire USSR was 185.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Claymore

Look in the mirror and ask this question to your reflection.

Spare me your self-discovery techniques

Quote: Claymore

Dear layman. The authorities of cities, territories, regions and republics belong to the bodies of state power of the subjects and have nothing to do with the highest (federal) bodies of state power of the Russian Federation, which you call either the "supreme power of Russia" or "the supreme legislative power"

low-cost, LEGISLATIVE bodies of the constituent entities of the Federation are directly related to the highest legislative power of Russia, works exclusively within the framework of the legislation adopted by it

Quote: Claymore

Your next drain is counted.

Again hallucinations .... See above.

Quote: Claymore

De facto, dear amateur, means actual availability.
The de facto individual becomes a criminal at the time he commits a crime under the law, and not at the time of pronouncing a court verdict.

would-be "interpreter", the individual becomes a criminal ONLY after the verdict of the court, before that he is still a suspect-see. Legislation of any country. And precisely because. that the court often proves that the events "de facto" simply never happened and they only existed in the fevered accusing heads.

Quote: Claymore

You, dear man, because since the year 77 no Soviet power has existed.

My dear man, not to me, but to the SOVIET authority, which is indicated in the 1977 Constitution of the USSR: in the form of an organ of supreme state power of the Supreme The Council, Armed Forces of republics and local Boards. It was the state that called crime crimes.
The groans of losers losers - in the furnace

Quote: Claymore

Obviously, in the 30s, the villager who was able to afford to slaughter a cow in the late 20s and was not forced to work as a fist was provided for.

More creative suggestions will be

Obvious your um Failure to give a definition of the concept of "security" 30 years, allowing the DEATH of a "wealthy" person.

Quote: Claymore

How did you determine this?

How many times do you REPEAT to get to 7 Not I determined, but historians and scientists. There was no greater mass tragedy in the history of the world until the mid-20th century.
Have your comm. "scientists" and leaders. strength, it simply was NOT at all.

Quote: Claymore

You can not

You cannot prove your FALSE about cannibalism in the Republic of Ingushetia: there are not only documents, NO contemporaries testimonies (and there have been a lot of reports about the famines themselves), nor reports of the police and gendarmerie, ANYTHING.
Your wretched and miserable story about ONE cases among natives Turukhansky Krai in the riots of a hunger strike in the taiga (not fertile fields of the Kuban) at the beginning of the 19th century (there was no power there either) was simply a disgrace. Phi!

Quote: Claymore

thus Your behavior directly indicates that the real tragedies associated with the situation of peasants in the Republic of Ingushetia and the USSR You spit

When will it come? I don't care about the grades given to me.

Quote: Claymore

Your tendency to wag your hips is already well known to me. Therefore, put off your spectacular dance until better times and answer the question.

Do not wag your head and show WHERE I am talking about statistics. mentioned SECRET statistics? Only public FALSE!

Quote: Claymore

Do not wag your hips with strangers.

Do you have such visions? So I can’t give you special help, alas ....

Quote: Claymore

Yes? Well, tell us more about this - how, for example, over the past 117 years of RI's existence, has the situation with mortality from smallpox changed?

What for?! For the hundredth time I ask: who said that in 1940 in RI the situation would be worse? None! Except you, but you too.

Quote: Claymore

I’m calm - it is you who move your hips all the time dancing from direct questions.

The pathological liar is always calm, that’s clear. even when he was caught lying

Quote: Claymore

One must be absolutely inadequate in order to draw the war going on in the territory of foreign states to infant mortality in a state on the territory of which there is no war

The fact of the wild difference for the better in a WARSING country from a ... peaceful country is undeniable.

Quote: Claymore

One must be absolutely inadequate in order to be trumped by comparing statistical data on the European part of the Republic of Ingushetia with statistical data on the entire USSR.

Tllko ignoramus does not know that infant mortality among Muslims was many times less than among Russians. He doesn’t know, but he climbs with empty chatter.

Quote: Claymore

in 1911-15, not distinguished by social and natural disasters

oh yes you are completely illiterate ....

Quote: Claymore

At the same time, in a really problematic period of 32-36 years,

Yeah, you were the worst problem for the country. ONCE AGAIN: 33 year-300 deaths, 37-260 deaths.
And even in 1986 this excess over France was 2,4 times (compare with 1,71 in 1915).
Disgrace

[Claymore]

Quote: Olgovich

Spare me your self-discovery techniques

Obviously, you have already been saved by nature from the ability to know and self-knowledge, so there is no need to rid you of the methods of knowledge.

The LEGISLATIVE BODIES of the constituent entities of the Federation are directly related to the supreme legislative power of Russia, as works exclusively within the framework of the legislation adopted by it

Dear amateur. In the framework established on the territory of the Russian Federation (which the legislative power of the Russian Federation does not establish by itself, but together with the head of state), there are not only the authorities of the subjects, but also local authorities, as well as Russian citizens, foreign citizens located on the territory of the Russian Federation states, enterprises and organizations (both residents and non-residents), and even diplomatic missions of foreign states - however, this does not refer them to the authorities of the Federation.

See above

I looked and I can repeat with full confidence - your drain has been counted.

would-be "interpreter", the individual becomes a criminal ONLY after the verdict of the court

You are inadequate.
An individual is recognized as a criminal by a court or not (de jure). And he becomes a criminal at the time the crime was committed upon its commission (although the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation classifies as punishable as much as 3 stages of the commission of a crime - preparation for a crime, attempted crime and a completed crime).

My dear man, not to me, but to the SOVIET authority, which is specified in the 1977 Constitution of the USSR: in the form of an organ of the highest state power of the Supreme Council

Dear amateur. The supreme body of state power, unable to determine the line of foreign and domestic policy, is not in fact the supreme body of state power.

Obvious is your um, non-ability to define

Obviously, in essence, there is nothing to tell you, therefore, I am waiting for the next creative proposals.

How many times do you REPEAT to get 7

1 times.
Well, how did you (or unknown scientists, whose names, statements and works you are embarrassed to present) determined that "no one knew a famine on the scale of 33 years"?
Where did you even manage to dig up data from a never-conducted study on the topic of comparing the magnitude of hunger - as you always fantasized?

You cannot prove your FALSE about cannibalism in RI

This is not a lie, but a fact that I have already proved.
There are testimonies of contemporaries, but no documents only because in the Republic of Ingushetia everyone did not care what was happening in the countryside (it was only the "bloody Bolsheviks" who tried to recommend everything that happened).

When will it come?

Already reached. Therefore, in the future I will not explain the obvious things to you, but will only notice the manifestations of your inadequacy.

show WHERE I am talking about statistics. mentioned SECRET statistics?

You have a tendency to replace concepts, but you are doing it very clumsy.
You mentioned statistics for official use when you started talking about Soviet statistics as such - all Soviet statistics were intended for official use, were classified as "secret" and were publicly published only after passing the censorship.
But especially in this matter, it is how you joyfully refer to Soviet statistics when it is convenient for you, contriving at the next moment to declare that Soviet statistics "are false, fragmentary, conjunctural and biased."

Do you have such visions?

I have just such observations.

What for?!

No hysterics with exclamation marks - your next drain is counted.
As for the situation with smallpox mortality, it did not change in 117 years (mortality was highest in Europe - 3 times higher than in Spain, which took 2nd place) - this suggests that if On the 40th year the situation would have improved, not by much.

The pathological liar is always calm

The pathological liar is always hysterical, replaces concepts and dances from questions - which is what we observe.

The fact of the wild difference for the better in a WARSING country from ...... a peaceful country is undeniable

1 There is no difference in favor of RI.
2 WWI could not affect the level of infant mortality in the European part of the Republic of Ingushetia, therefore, drawing this war to this topic is another clumsy attempt to substitute concepts.
3 The isolation of specifically infant mortality from child mortality and total mortality is also a clumsy attempt to substitute concepts.

Tllko ignoramus does not know that infant mortality among Muslims was several times lower than that of Russians

Only the ignoramus does not know that Muslims were not the vast majority in the territories of the Republic of Ingushetia, where statistics were not kept.
This substitute liar focuses on the seemingly comfortable infant mortality.

yes you are completely illiterate

A completely expected unfounded statement.

ONCE AGAIN: 33 year-300 deaths, 37-260 deaths

Once again 240 vs 185.

Disgrace

He said avoiding answers to questions, wagging his hips and primitively replacing the concepts of a liar. )))

[Koshnitsa]

marline,
Why do you bold only part of the document? Ugly.
There is a continuation, about the heroes of the rear work.

[Koshnitsa]

stalkerwalker,
To do something is not to be a specialist.
Aliyev, by the way, after being elected to the Politburo, took up his speech and got rid of his accent. For the average person, there is nothing complicated. But Stalin failed, the wimp turned out to be.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

To do something is not to be a specialist.

Project onto yourself ...

Quote: Koshnitsa

Aliyev, by the way, after being elected to the Politburo, took up his speech and got rid of his accent.

Well, don’t love IVS, don’t love.
But do not fall below the level of the baseboard, exposing this dislike, do not wave above your head as a banner in battle.

To get a country like the USSR out of the swamp that Stalin went to on May 1941, having both the government and the highest echelons of the party, where all decisions were made collectively, all sorts of fellow travelers and outspoken opponents, eager to continue the World Revolution .. ..

Add frank confusion and vacillation in the ranks of the senior command staff of the Red Army.

To do this, you need to be not just an extraordinary person.

And one should clearly distinguish between the main lines of the party and government of the USSR - the Leninist period, the period of the struggle for power from 1924 to 1938, and the post-Stalin period, which ended in the collapse of the country.

[Koshnitsa]

Well, do not like temporary detention facilities, do not like // De-Stalinization was carried out perfectly in Abkhazia, and then in South Ossetia in 2008. The people of Stalin were expelled from these territories.
to get a country like the USSR out of the swamp that Stalin went to by May 1941 // And until May 1941 did Stalin sit out in Switzerland? maybe he was in exile?
and in the highest echelons of the party, where all decisions were taken collectively .... // I see. His Mikoyan and Budyonny were intimidated. Interesting version.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

And until May 1941, did Stalin sit in Switzerland? maybe he was in exile?

Uh, my friend ....
As soon as you asked "not on a ticket", and you "floated" ....

You already deal with the History of the USSR

Quote: stalkerwalker

during the struggle for power from 1924 to 1938,

and then much becomes clear, so as not to appeal with arguments like

Quote: Koshnitsa

Clear. His Mikoyan and Budyonny were intimidated. Interesting version.

[Koshnitsa]

More specifically, with whom did Stalin share power until the 41 year?
With Kallinin? With Mikoyan? with Kaganovich?

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

More specifically, with whom did Stalin share power until the 41 year?
With Kallinin? With Mikoyan? with Kaganovich?

How everything is started ....

Mdya-ah-ah ... Googling does not work ...
Try to find documents (as I understand it — your style) that would describe the highest authorities in the USSR — both in the party (supreme and governing bodies) and in the government ...

I dare to assure that I. Stalin was not a sovereign master neither in the government, nor, especially, in the party.

And only on the eve of World War II, realizing that that mess (like the current one!) Could not be fixed, he began to close the control lines to himself.

Is it worth reminding what was happening in the "invincible and legendary", where Stalin did not meddle, and K. Voroshilov, with a sin in half, handed over to the Red Army from hand-to-hand K. Timoshenko?

[Claymore]

Quote: Koshnitsa

More specifically, with whom did Stalin share power until the 41 year?

Cool question

I’m asking someone - what kind of power did a member of the highest governing body of a public organization possess, who was also a head of the secretariat of this organization and an ordinary deputy of a body that corresponded in its functionality to the current State Duma of the Russian Federation?

[vladcub]

Koshnitsa, what did it loop you in May 1941?

[Koshnitsa]

Well, in May 1941, they give me the date that sleeping Stalin woke up, and before that he was afraid of Mikoyan and Boudin

[Koshnitsa]

Quote: stalkerwalker

Project onto yourself ...

I'm projecting on everyone. Take for example the same Saakashvili, the same thing.
Only the countries they are different from Dzhugashvili got.

[Koshnitsa]

Just Ilyich, well, there I hope with the Magyars, did you figure it out?
About 300 thousand soldiers, including those who died in captivity after the war, died of all causes during the Second World War. Jewish soldiers are also included.
Including anti-fascists who died in the battles of the Wehrmacht and died at the hands of the Romanian military, the Titov thugs and the Chetniks of the king, from the bombing of the allies, from the hands of Ukrainian nationalists.
Including the SS men.
This is the loss of Hungarian troops from all territories where mobilization and voluntary admission to the Hungarian army was carried out.
Less than 300 thousand people.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Just Ilyich, well, there I hope with the Magyars, did you figure it out?

Yes.
I agree.

Remained Romanians with dates.
And do not forget about volkssturm.

[Koshnitsa]

Volkssturm is not necessary, it is the Germans.
Dates according to their data 82 thousands
Romanians fought on two sides

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Volkssturm is not necessary, it is the Germans.

Did Overmans mention them in his "writings"?
Let me remind you that since March 1945, statistics on losses in the Wehrmacht were not kept. Well then, what about Volkssturm, which was held by Himmler’s department? And they suffered the greatest losses from December 44 to April 45.

Quote: Koshnitsa

Romanians fought on two sides

If the Romanians lost ten thousand in 1944, when they turned their bayonets, okay. But still - lope?

Quote: Koshnitsa

Dates according to their data 82 thousands

This song is not new. The losses of the army and the Shutskor are like losses of the Wehrmacht and Volkssturm.

[Koshnitsa]

The Finns have all the dead. And Shyutskor-DOSAFF too.

[beeper]

Nda, the author wanders in the dark - from the first lines of his propaganda "mythology" there is a superficial and biased "(not) knowledge of the subject", alas.
I do not want to go deep into the "debriefing", something has already been said by adequate commentators (I carefully read and "checked out" all 258, at the moment, comments), otherwise I will probably end my comment with "Russian obscene" (which, when registering on the site, was obliged do not use ), therefore, tolerantly and carefully, I will only touch on particulars.
Among all the other absurdities, indiscriminate defamation of the memory of millions of repressed and outright distortions, I was "hooked" by such an author's absurdity, I quote: "... What else can you expect from people who are accustomed to living in a" market-bazaar "economy: when the manufactured goods bring to the market and sell at an overpriced. At the same time, people knew how to work, work hard .... "The author, well, who on the MARKET will buy your goods at an overpriced price ??? Have you yourself ever tried to trade at an overpriced price in the market, did you do it well, because "the product is not the one that lies, but the one that runs" ??? You probably wanted to say that in the market, grown by many peasant labors, bread could be sold at a higher (and not "overpriced") market price than the state "offered" for it ?!
And yet, apparently, the Author didn’t quite understand for himself that “kulaks” and “podkulachniki” in “holy Stalinist times” could stigmatize and stigmatize ANYONE (both a prosperous peasant - “kulak, kurkul, a world eater”, and the middle peasant (“kulak” or "podkulachnik" - according to the situational whim of the "asset"), and even the most impoverished farm laborer - "podkulak, kulak echo"!) DISPOSAL, something "disliked" by the "authorized" functionaries of the Soviet regime and their local "asset", a villager, even the quietest and did not think about resistance to any power ?! It's like now on "nezalezhnoy" -called "patriot", or even better, "zigurt" with the same "heroes", label any "disliked" "peresichny" citizen "separatist" and do with him what you want, even for beating him and murder, if it is "for eating the edge and eating mev", the authorities will not punish, well, perhaps, "about the human eye" they will scold (they say, it was necessary to deliver the "separatist" alive "where necessary", and "there" would those "who need" with him "figured out") and let him go to all four sides, as was the case with the murderers of even the famous Ukrainian patriot-journalist and historian Oles Buzina, who somehow "did not like" Bandera "activists" (or rather, their owners)? !

[vladcub]

Pishchak, my paternal grandfather was among the collective farm activists and dispossessed, and already in the seventies he told me that half of the collective farm activists had to be shot: there was a lot of arbitrariness and personal revenge.
And if you read the correspondence of Sholokhov and Stalin and there are also a bunch of examples of arbitrariness

[beeper]

Quote: vladcub

Pishchak, my paternal grandfather was among the collective farm activists and dispossessed, and already in the seventies he told me that half of the collective farm activists had to be shot: there was a lot of arbitrariness and personal revenge.
And if you read the correspondence of Sholokhov and Stalin and there are also a bunch of examples of arbitrariness

I (and my wife too) on the paternal and maternal side, all the ancestors (Russian, Belarusian, Ukrainian peasants) are "dispossessed" (and on the Don they are also "decoded"), so from childhood (even without Sholokhov and Stalin) I know from the surviving relatives, many examples and details of this outright atrocity and murder, and how it then "prophylactically (from" those who need ")" was reflected even on the descendants of the peasants who miraculously survived or somehow escaped repression, when completely "gone from the coils "The Soviet government methodically (also mockingly hypocritical about the alleged" excesses in the localities "!) was breaking the backbone of the All-Russian Peasantry and Cossacks, trampling on the Orthodox Faith and all conceivable norms of Human Morality and Law!
The fact that in 37-39, the executioners of the next generation a little "cleaned up" their executioners, forerunners and their servants (and only when it touched them themselves, from the "Soviet Ilita", who until then did not notice and approve of the blatant ruin, robbery and the destruction, under the guise of "collectivization", of the most industrious peasants, arose, still incessant, "ecumenical groan" about the "thirty-seventh year", as if there were no other "twenties" and "thirties" before ??! ) is the law of karma in action (the same will happen with the current Nazi "heroes" -punishers and their masters).

[Koshnitsa]

Unknown brother to your hand!

[beeper]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Unknown brother to your hand!

And the same to you, colleague Koshnitsa!
I forgot to write something that is already taken for granted, but it seems that the Author of the Article still hasn’t understood it ?!
The Soviet power with its "collectivization" destroyed (you cannot call such Beating as "war", but the Author wants to adjust the destruction of the peasantry to the patterns of Soviet propaganda, from the illustration of rare local exceptions, "pulling by the ears" supposedly widespread armed resistance to the armed arbitrariness of the authorities ?!) the most hardworking and INDEPENDENT peasants, since she needed only dependent and dependent "cogs-dumbbells", blindly fulfilling any, even the most absurd (promising crop failure and hunger), "guidelines" and obediently "wavering" along with the "party line"!

[020500]

Here, for example, you will become the governor of your region, and you will need to ensure the supply of food to its population. Let's say a couple of million people. And your agricultural producers are entirely "hardworking and INDEPENDENT", and instead of bread-milk-eggs-msyao beef at normal (affordable prices for the population) stick cookies under your nose. They demand prices 2-3 times higher.
And you already have people in the cities sitting on the cards, some are really starving, unrest, shops are starting to smash.

And who, from your point of view, will be these "SELF"?
I foresee two answers:
- From rural curkuli - that’s right, sniff the geti city parasites at least die. The main thing is that the reference owner is further rich.

- From a city dweller (and no matter what class they belong to, both the nobleman and the proletarian will say the same) - to the fingernail of these curculets and saboteurs!

[Koshnitsa]

Free trade will solve all problems.
Where there were whites, even in the gloomy forests of the Archangel-township, there was no famine.
Where there were red-hunger was everywhere.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Where there were red-hunger was everywhere.

And before that there were whites who robbed everyone and retreated. The famine in 1921 happened just in those territories where the fighting recently took place.

[Koshnitsa]

So hunger has been in all territories controlled by the Reds since 17. Is it clear now?
And in the Volga region the battles passed, already in the year 18.
In the Kuban it was not, there the lads sat in the floodplains, did not allow to rob.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

So hunger has been in all territories controlled by the Reds since 17. Is it clear now?
And in the Volga region the battles passed, already in the year 18.

No, it’s not clear, you need to dig deeper, you only see that. what lies on the surface. But hunger by the Bolsheviks in 17 left the Provisional Government, in 18 the territory controlled by the Soviet power was cut off from all grain districts, and then there was no one to sow in the Volga region, almost the entire male population was recruited into white or red military units, yes and there was nothing to sow. In addition, there was a severe drought at this time.

[vladcub]

Quote: EvilLion

Of course, I understand everything, but Stalin did it so that in Europe, and in the USA, and especially in Japan, no one is going to give birth to children anymore on 10, or is it a natural process when moving from a village with wild infant mortality to developed urban civilization?

Tell me, is it right now that a child from a peasant family with ten children really get a quality higher education?

Much more real than, for example, Mikhail Lomonosov. Actually, that's why everyone knows Lomonosov, because he was one of tens of millions who wanted and made his way, and thousands of modern students are nobody.

When the king did not run so shamefully.

What are you talking about! I would like to remind you if you heard about this, but the army of the 18-19 of the 20th century are actually officers-noblemen who swear allegiance to some of the peasants from whom demand is zero. And there is a huge difference between the Soviet conscript, undergoing a complex propaganda treatment and personally reading the oath and other obligations and an illiterate peasant of the 19 century, who was recruited for recruits.

And at the same time, the level of transition to service to the enemy at that time is simply rolls over. For noble families, emerging from more feudal times - this is not at all zapadlo. Peter I still had an army of foreign military experts, and of course, in the event of a change in the situation, these people willingly went to the service of others.

You would not tell tales.

If I had not recorded in the fifth column the children of the royal officers.

And Marshal Shaposhnikov, he doesn’t even "kill the tsarist officer", he is already a tsarist colonel. And the civil war is a war that the tsarist colonels won against the tsarist generals. Approximately 40% of the officers of the tsarist army went to serve with the Bolsheviks, and how many were those who did not go, but did not interfere. And back in 1927, an amnesty was announced to the participants of the white movement in the USSR, and many returned, and even served in the Red Army.

And then the so-called "Spring" case organized by Tukhachevsky with the help of Voroshilov and 2/3 of the officers who honestly served the revolution, were destroyed

[stalkerwalker]

Koshnitsa,

Quote: Koshnitsa

Bunich’s lies are merely a response to many decades of Soviet lies.
Stalin generally spoke of the seven million dead, then the numbers began to grow.

Stalin said exactly what was reported to him. As an example - the loss of 5 TA Rotmistrov near Prokhorovka.
And at the end of the Great Patriotic War, the leader arranged a "distribution of elephants", both to generals and civilians, who were especially noted in the issue of the country's defense during the war. The list is long - Shakhurin and Novikov, Voznesensky and Vannikov, etc. G.K. Zhukov also did not stand aside - he was caught in large-scale looting.

The problem is that after the coup in 53rd, and after the XNUMXth Congress, all the "innocently repressed" were rehabilitated in one fell swoop. And the documents were either cleaned up or corny destroyed. The "Leningrad affair" was especially diligently cleansed. And there, if you believe indirect signs, the traces led to a response to the massive repressions in Ukraine, where comrades Kosior, Postyshev and Khrushchev distinguished themselves.
The first two were put up against the wall even before the war. Nikita slipped through. But the investigation, resumed in 1949, groped for some "traces". And the court intrigue began.
Finale - they helped Stalin die without providing first aid for a stroke (the rule of the first 3 hours). Beria was killed. And in the end: "The people are the party! And the party is me!"

Without any conspiracy theories - in the leadership of the country and the party in the 50 of the last century, there were many personal enemies of Beria and Stalin and their associates, who were looking for the possibility of revenge for the death of friends in conspiracies, which were like dirt in the 30 of the same century.
But that is a different story.

[Koshnitsa]

Stalin said exactly what was reported to him. // Here, I just Ilyich completely agree with you.
Being a short-sighted man, Dzhugashvili could not organize control over information and seriously considered, for example, that collective farmers live in the USSR very richly and buy cars in large numbers in 1949.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Being a short-sighted man, Dzhugashvili could not organize control over information and seriously considered, for example, that collective farmers live in the USSR very richly and buy cars in large quantities in the 1949 year

Sergey,

Stop already raising the personality of Stalin to absolute evil ....

It is clear that we have diametrically opposite points of view on the role of I.V. Stalin in the History of the USSR. But it’s not worth it, right thing, to expose him as a kind of semi-literate demon.

I am sure that the data of your "Memorial" rests, first of all, on the materials leading the genealogy from the mountain of lies that the "corn-maker" spat at the XXth Congress.

If we compare the situation in the country today with what happened in the 30 of the last century, leaving the army behind the brackets, then the analogies are in bulk.
Today - the so-called. oligarchs. Then - the chiefs and directors of factories of military importance, who in the name of "shaft and plan and bonuses" were not at all going to lay down in the name of a qualitative improvement of the produced equipment.
What about kumovism? Family ties led to the large-scale marriage of hundreds of Yak fighters on the eve of the Battle of Kursk.
Corruption? Yes, she was essentially the driving force of the party apparatus.

What blame I. Stalin? Like, however, V. Putin?

This is not someone up there short-sighted and short-sighted: the king, secretary general or president.

[Koshnitsa]

But it’s not worth it, the right thing, to expose him as a kind of semi-literate demon. // And he was a competent angel?
That's it. The more completely foreign to Russia and the Russian people, the consumer of lobio and churchkhela, who does not know anything about Russia.
His level is trade in apricot or pita bread in the county town of Gori.

[vladcub]

Collectivization is the most difficult and painful topic in our history. Ol'govich and some others will be angry with me now, but I will say: collectivization was necessary, but during collectivization great excesses were made, or rather deliberate extermination of the people and the main culprit - Kaganovich and Co.! If you look closely at history, then Stalin was not an autocratic dessert as he is portrayed. The first tales about Stalin - a despot, began to be told by the "real Leninist" NS, and Solzhenitsyn and others continued.

[Koshnitsa]

Collective farm activists of the agricultural collective named after three thousandths
1931 year. New power. Moscow region. Photographer Alexander Ustinov.

[Koshnitsa]

What beautiful Russian faces the peasants hid behind the barn.
But an activist swollen from moonshine in a cap under which a perturbed mind boils, Mongoloidity is visible.
as if the days of a fierce horde attacking the village were back.
The artist sympathizes with the peasants

[Karenius]

Quote: Koshnitsa

The artist sympathizes with the peasants

Not only an artist ... Art lovers too ...

[kalibr]

I hope they kill him!

[Koshnitsa]

No, they remember the little guy manenko, they will give a mallet on the head, you look, he will recover, become wiser.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

What beautiful Russian faces the peasants hid behind the barn.

Yes, "guys-democrats" well, you have psychology, but it's okay that these "beautiful peasants" in a moment will become murderers, that is. ordinary criminals?

[Koshnitsa]

Well, these are the realities of the partisan movement, the invaders are always being liquidated in this way.
Pesatel in a cap, apparently some Mari, abusing moonshine, was sent from the province.
There is also etching of races and peoples living in Russia.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

0
Well, these are the realities of the partisan movement, the invaders are always being liquidated in this way.

Why are you sobbing about repressed fists? In war, as in war.

[Koshnitsa]

So why eliminate the best people of the kulaks when it is possible to eliminate the worst, the same poor?
Ordinary selection, right.
If your ancestors drank their allotment of land and became farm laborers, then why do they even need them?
As the wise Yakov Lukich Ostrovnov used to say that it is necessary to create three collective farms on the farm — one of the kulaks, one of the middle peasants and one of the poor, and such as grandfather Schukar to send to Siberia, let the GPU teach him how to work

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

why eliminate the best people of the kulaks,

These are not the best people, but ordinary lawless people who, during collectivization, switched to open gangsterism.

[Koshnitsa]

Among the kulaks there were no drunkards, lazy people, dumbasses, losers.
They are rich, which means loved by God.
There is purely genetically better option.
And farm laborers and loafers.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

There is purely genetically better option.
And farm laborers and loafers.

Old song. Do not forget that the kulaks have been called world-eaters since imperial times ..

[Vadim237]

I would like to see your actions when you are being taken out of lawlessness: a crop grown with your hands — then everything was plowed, things, cattle, a house and thrown out into the street with your family — your attitude to the authorities was vryat after that would be positive.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Vadim237

when they take it from you by lawlessness: a crop grown with your hands — then everything was plowed, things, cattle, a house and thrown out into the street with your family — your attitude to the authorities was vryat after that would be positive.

Do you remember how it all began? Soviet power in the countryside began the collectivization of poor households. The kulaks, seeing that the poor are uniting and freed from kulak exploitation, engaged in sabotage and murder, a real civil war broke out in the village, and the kulaks were destroyed like a bourgeois exploiting class.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: vladcub

collectivization was necessary, but during collectivization great excesses were allowed, or rather, the deliberate extermination of the people and the main culprit

Everything is true except for the main culprit.
The peasantry was not a homogeneous mass. It was its own specific society - quite religious, committed to local traditions and moderately illiterate.
By decree of the Bolshevik peasants received land for their own use. And collectivization, which began 12 years later, was a necessary measure, contributing to an increase in labor productivity through mechanization. Surplus peasant hands were redirected to the city, to construction sites and enterprises.
The rest is from the evil one.

[Koshnitsa]

And the decree about the land itself is criminal and all its consequences too.
That's how it ended.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

And the decree about the land itself is criminal and all its consequences too.

Well, now everything is clear - you yourself have outlined the circle of your "knowledge".
If you are more than aware of the issue of "losses of the Soviet people" during the period of collectivization and the Great Patriotic War, then in reasons for this you obviously do not have enough material, tk. the ever-memorable decree was not issued by itself to bring the peasantry "under the monastery."

[Koshnitsa]

to seize power.
Well, to ignite a civil war in the countryside, to pit different groups of the population.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

to seize power.

Almost guessed.
Nobody wanted to take power. Responsibility - for sure.
The Bolsheviks literally raised power from the earth. Like responsibility.

Quote: Koshnitsa

Well, to ignite a civil war in the countryside, to pit different groups of the population.

My friend,
Stop laughing. Once again, I propose to read a certain Prudnikoff .....

[Koshnitsa]

I do not read old Prudnikoff.
She is not healthy.
I watched her performance with the translator from interlinear English to the obscene cartoon of the Volksdeutsche Goblin and I felt sorry for her. She is nonsense.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Koshnitsa

I do not read old Prudnikoff.
She is not healthy.

Are you sure that you are healthy, that you are a fan of the ROVS and => a latent Nazi?

[Koshnitsa]

I’m not talking nonsense, like Prudnikoff. So healthy.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Koshnitsa

I’m not talking nonsense, like Prudnikoff. So healthy.

Most mentally ill people consider themselves perfectly adequate. For they lack the function of "self-reflection". Completely.

[Koshnitsa]

Right Prudnikoff is just such a guy.
He is talking nonsense and cannot stop.

[Karenius]

Quote: Koshnitsa

to seize power.
Well, to ignite a civil war in the countryside, to pit different groups of the population.

I don’t know about you, but here in Armenia, right after the Bolshevization, the newspaper “Kommunist” voiced indignation that there was no civil war, and called on to divide the peasantry into groups and cut, chop, chop ...

[beeper]

Quote: Karenius

Quote: Koshnitsa

to seize power.
Well, to ignite a civil war in the countryside, to pit different groups of the population.

I don’t know about you, but here in Armenia, right after the Bolshevization, the newspaper “Kommunist” voiced indignation that there was no civil war, and called on to divide the peasantry into groups and cut, chop, chop ...

So the Bolsheviks, in their own interests, and divided the peasantry into classes: the kulaks, the middle peasants, the poor, and unleashed on this "basis" murderous civil strife in the countryside!
In Soviet times, even at school, they taught the principles of the Bolshevik "policy", including the gradual de-peasantization: "First, the proletariat, together with the petty-bourgeois element and the peasantry, acts against the big bourgeoisie and landowners, after the destruction of the big bourgeoisie and landowners, together with the middle peasants and the poor, against the petty-bourgeois element in the city and the kulaks in the countryside, and after the destruction of these "elements", the proletariat, together with the poorest peasantry, against the middle peasants ... "- this was not at all hidden behind the student's clear knowledge of these stages of the Bolshevik" class struggle "was given the mark" excellent ", and those who distinguished themselves at the end of secondary school were awarded the Certificate of Honor:" for special success in the study of history and social studies ", which gives the right to pass the profile exam upon admission to (B) university!

[Koshnitsa]

Absolutely.
The outbreak in the country of civil war was predetermined by the Bolsheviks in advance.
Drawing on the experience of the 18th century WFR.
And they prepared terror in advance, too.

[naidas]

Probably as criminal as the law on raising the retirement age.

[Koshnitsa]

Comrade Putin is moving in the same direction

[Vadim237]

At least from hunger, constant warfare, revolutions with riots of repression - the people are not dying now, as in the period from 1917 to 1953.

[Olgovich]

Quote: stalkerwalker

And collectivization, which began 12 years later, was a necessary measure, contributing to an increase in labor productivity through mechanization.

Not a NON-GOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATION led by over-age inexperienced, nowhere unemployed ignoramuses, decide this.
And the "increase in productivity" of agriculture is seen in the harvests (the yield level of 1913 was reached only by 1956) and the consumption of FOOD and CLOTHING, the level of consumption of which was, with difficulty, reached only by 1950.

[Olgovich]

Quote: vladcub

Olgovich will be angry with me now

Why on earth? If, within the framework of mutual respect, argue, then why not? You do not want anything bad for your country. We just find out WHAT is bad and what is good.

Quote: vladcub

but I’ll say: collectivization was necessary,

Who was she needed ?! WHO has decided?
And the people did not have to ask?
WHO instructed one public organization to "save" the country and the people, "collect", "strip", stupidly hold a hunger strike 33 and generally experiment
? NOBODY, nowhere and never.
And there would be at least some elections and even with a minimum of information about what is happening, it would have flown by with a minus. Therefore, there was a lie in everything, fear of elections and of their own people.

[Koshnitsa]

Kaganovich was a faithful six of Dzhugashvili, Asians, sir!

[naidas]

Defarming conducted in the USA during these same years was tougher.

[Koshnitsa]

How many millions starved to death in the USA? Show the graves?

[naidas]

Fools in America could not find themselves under the law of anti-American activity. Although the total numbers are known: Altogether 8,5 million people went through the American GULAG of public works - not counting the prisoners themselves (with a monthly salary of $ 5 per person).
You better look at the paid-up memorial as it finds graves on Western money, sometimes as in Karelia, the graves from the Finns are presented as Stalinist repressed.

[Koshnitsa]

So there they paid money in American organizations.
And as for the flashing, this is true, here in the 20th century, millions of people were buried anywhere, and millions were completely abandoned to rot.

[Essex62]

confrontation with the West. [/ quote] And how did Russia stand up to the West against this power in 1000 years and became the largest country in the world?
And with her, she squeezed to size 17th century? [/ Quote]
Well, yes. And I also joined half of Europe, under the banner of the most advanced and most importantly the most just doctrine. The social structure of society is such "disgusting" that it takes disgust. Do you want exceptional ones again? So this is a puddle, there are many of them.

[Koshnitsa]

Do you not like priests or peasants? And what priests are black or white?
and peasants some landlords, specific, monastic, white-plow?
Maybe you are an internationalist and want to feed blacks lynched in the USA for free?
Just wondering.

[020500]

And pop he is pop. Fiber forehead.
From the first click
Pop jumped to the ceiling;
From the second click
Lost pop language;
And from the third click
The old man's mind was knocked out.
And Balda condemned with reproach:
"You would not chase, pop, for cheapness"

But no one liked the peasantry, even the peasants themselves. Therefore, as soon as the authorities released them from the village, they fled to the city, and so, so far that by now no one was left in the villages, there were empty

[Koshnitsa]

the priests themselves were the Russian estate, so he was exterminated.

[Essex62]

Such a correct arrangement of the world - a peasant sows, plows, a baker bakes a roll, a hard worker makes a tool for this business, and a noble master jams this roll, drinks cognac and waving a whip with a whip for negligence? Or in the teeth, lower rank, from their nobility for a reason from a hangover, sir. Nothing of the kind, not a correct world order. And the working class explained to the gold-hunters, and together with them merchants, hucksters and priests, a hundred years ago, their delusions. Bloody clarified, but fair. The fact that a handful, well, it so happened historically, arrogated to themselves the right to be exclusive and bend everyone else, was corrected by the commissar with a Mauser. These were different personalities, many due to at least their nationality, not unambiguous (Stalin later explained them too). But they did the main thing - they created the basis for a really just society, which was the Union of the 50s-80s. So that everyone was comfortable, everyone who imagines himself that he is an exceptional system drove "to the very top." Even party officials of a fairly high rank did not suffer from snobbery. Maybe they wanted to, and pricked_ "yes, you see, you can't." They were close to the people, they might not understand. I had to communicate.

[Koshnitsa]

The nobles of the peasants defended. But only. From death and slavery.
And they knew how to do it successfully, unlike the curly-haired commisag in a leather jacket.
Even party workers of a sufficiently high rank did not suffer from snobbery. // Nerds, as a rule, were deprived of this feeling.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

The nobles of the peasants defended. But only. From death and slavery.

Stop laughing.

My fellow countryman, I. Bunin, in his travel essays "Cursed Days", very popularly described those poor peasants, from whom the nobles could not escape.

It makes no sense to create a popular print in the style of "Oh, how good it was under the tsar-father".
The peasantry, which accounted for 80% of the population of Ingushetia, was mostly illiterate or illiterate, lived "from the plow", and died regularly during the years of droughts and crop failures, as it was in the USSR later, until a tractor was sent to the village, and the village, as the main supplier of grain and agricultural products was not under the care of the state.

The origins of the Civil War lie in the consequences of the so-called The February bourgeois rrrrr revolution, when the country entered the stage of decay, and collapse was a matter of time.
The army of the Republic of Ingushetia by the spring of 1917 was a semi-controlled armed crowd in which soldiers' committees were in charge. And the representatives of these committees were not at all eager to fight either for the king, who was forced to abdicate, nor for the so-called. Interim government.
The fleet was, as it were, no worse. Reprisals against officers were commonplace. The village was no better.

The Bolsheviks energetically took up the matter, taking power in St. Petersburg and Moscow, and began to fight the devastation both in their heads and in the country as a whole.
You can ironize as much as you like about how the Bolsheviks ruled the country, but the fact remains that the country did not fall into pieces, continued to function as a state.

There was no alternative to the Bolsheviks, nor in the form of the so-called Cossacks, no other options.
Bolsheviks can not be loved from the standpoint of today. But then, in the period from 1917 to 1922, they did everything to save the country.

[Koshnitsa]

So did the peasants themselves defend themselves from the attacks of nomads?
Do you seriously think so?
As early as the beginning of the 19th century, one could inadvertently go beyond the fence of Saratov, and then six months later, without eyes and eggs, turn a wheel somewhere in Khiva.
Here the nobles were engaged in ensuring peaceful labor and development of the country, as well as other military classes.
Well, they conquered new land, so that the peasant could work calmly on it.
and it died regularly during the years of drought and crop failure // under the Communists, yes, under the Tsar it was quite fat for itself.
The army of the Republic of Ingushetia by the spring of 1917 was a semi-controlled armed crowd in which the soldiers' committees were in charge. // By March, were there committees in the RIA? Even before the revolution?
You can ironize as much as you like about how the Bolsheviks ruled the country, but the fact remains that the country did not fall into pieces, continued to function as a state.
Collapsed. And from Russia there remained horns and legs, and officially the Russians were declared guilty of the whole nation in the USSR and were obliged to pay indemnities to foreigners.

[Koshnitsa]

But then, in the period from 1917 to 1922, they did everything to save the country. // Their country, but not the country of the Russians, who were officially declared the lowest race in the USSR.

[stalkerwalker]

Here you feel your gap in the question of party building and slogans.
Lenin, along with Yasha Sverdlov and Leva Bronstein, did not care what the national composition of Russia was, used as a platform for the implementation of the ideas of Marx.
I. Stalin, who, unlike the Bolshevik noblemen, who came out of the social lower classes, held a modest post in the party hierarchy, as well as in the country's leadership.
And only after the death of Ulyanov, he was able to come out not to the first role, but was able to rally around his figure "statesmen" who stood on the way to power of Bronstein-Trotsky, who advocated the continuation of the struggle for the ideas of the "world revolution".
Those. the interests of "professional revolutionaries", ready to go to achieve their ideas on the bones of the Russian people, and statesmen, who believed that the idea of ​​this world revolution should at least be postponed, to raise the country from ruins, collided.

The finale is famous.
Briefly.
Trotsky and his followers consistently kicked out of the party and the leadership of the country. Moreover, they were expelled from the party (at the leadership level) only after tough party discussions. The most severe social protection measure was the expulsion from the country.

As a result, all party functionaries who did not support the course towards the restoration of the country were expelled with shame.
But do not think that all the explicit and hidden Trotskyists (read the permanent revolutionaries) so easily refused party posts and seats of leaders .......

Do not write in one post the entire history of the struggle for power from 1924 to 1938.

[Koshnitsa]

Read the Russophobic appeals of Lenin, Sverdlov, Trotsky, Stalin and you will not find the difference.

[Claymore]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Read the Russophobic appeals of Lenin, Sverdlov, Trotsky, Stalin

Let’s quote, but with original sources.

[Koshnitsa]

Do it yourself pens

[Claymore]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Do it yourself pens

Why are you so frankly merging?

[naidas]

The nobles of the peasants defended.
And even laws were issued in defense of the peasants:
So, in the Council Code of 1649 there was such a recommendation to the landowner: “... so that he would not kill that runaway man before death and mutilate it, and would not starve it to death”.
In 1797, Emperor Paul I adopted the Manifesto of the three-day (per week) corvee.
in 1771, the empress by her decree banned the sale of peasants "under the hammer."
in 1808, Alexander I officially banned selling people at fairs.
In 1833, Nicholas I forbade the separation of members of serf families when selling or donating to other masters. First of all, it was about the inadmissibility of taking away children from their parents. (For a pretty girl, for example, you could help out 10 rubles, and sometimes more.)
About the rights of the first night and other noble joys you can not write.

[Koshnitsa]

Quote: naidas

About the rights of the first night

This is the Catholic people. In RI they sent to Shilka and Nerchinsk for this.

[naidas]

Prince Vasilchikov in his book "Land tenure and agriculture" confirms that when he was the leader of the nobility he had more than once encountered the facts of such violence by the landlords against the peasants.

However, laws that protected the sexual inviolability of serf women from violence by their owners were rarely enforced in tsarist Russia in view of the complete lack of rights of peasants in the face of the arbitrariness of serf owners. Often, the Russian landlords made very wide use of this opportunity, to the extent that often the entire female population of a serf manor was forcibly corrupted to satisfy master lust.

[Koshnitsa]

These are excesses
And for sexual abuse, the gentry was tried.
And the party members kept harems even under the USSR.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Essex62

Well, yes .And half of Europe attached,

Where is she?!
Look at the western border of the Russian Federation, its Bolsheviks established

[wooja]

fighting with a fist is akin to the Tatar-Mongol yoke ..., not just not there, but what is meant by it ....? but there were a lot of chips ...

[Koshnitsa]

An alien hostile race has captured Russia, with alien customs and cannibalistic laws.

[Koshnitsa]

stalkerwalker,
The Bolsheviks fought for the International, in fact, against Russia.

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Koshnitsa

The Bolsheviks fought for the International, in fact, against Russia.

Buddy

The international was the goal until the death of Ulyanov-Lenin.

After eliminating Trotsky and his comrades from the scene, it was like a banner. But not more.
The attitude of J.V. Stalin to permanent rEvolutionEms was very specific. Nobody chased them or threw them in jail. They themselves climbed into the noose, waving a saber over their heads with or without reason. As a result, a very specific article of the RSFSR Criminal Code appeared, 58. It is for these people, for whom "... And the eternal battle, we only dream of peace ..."

[Koshnitsa]

One Asian broke his head to the second Asian, and Russians like should rejoice at this, as a national victory.
Given that their situation in the USSR has not changed at all.

[Gopnik]

Quote: stalkerwalker

The international was the goal until the death of Ulyanov-Lenin.

Those. during the civil war, the Bolsheviks, led by Lenin and Trotsky, fought for the international and world revolution against the Russian patriots who fought for a single and indivisible Russia

[beeper]

IMHO. With his obvious gaps in knowledge on the topic touched upon and primitive "pulling by the ears" the Author should not have poked around in the still bleeding nationwide wound, and even in such a dashing manner, with indiscriminate defamation of millions of honest rural workers repressed by the Soviet regime!
It's a thing of the past and that Soviet power is no longer and will not be, but the wound inflicted still hurts! And the Soviet and post-Soviet villages were dying and are dying from the same previous First Cause - the murderous Bolshevik "collectivization"!
In the current difficult socio-political situation, it would be necessary to seek and raise topics that consolidate the post-Soviet Russian society, and not to reopen the old wounds and bring discord between people! IMHO
All peace and prosperity!

[Koshnitsa]

marline,
Correctly out of 26 EDB and LR former in the RIF, only 2 are foreign-built.
In the RKKF - Soviet-built-0.
There is degradation.

[marline]

Again, chew the bast first.
Once again - the Soviet Union was not going to build armadillos.

[Koshnitsa]

Because he built communism, he had no time to do this.

[kalibr]

And he laid a mortgage ... for some reason?

[Koshnitsa]

He laid it down, while for some reason they shot the entire design bureau, and the drawings were confused. There was no one to build and there was nothing and it was not clear how. Metal scrap result

[ser56]

Quote: EvilLion

you need to put in a plow, the beginning of the 20th century, and see how you work on it for 10 hours a day. P

the problem is that you picked up agitprop fables about RI ...
My grandfather told me how in the Altai Territory they had horse seeders, reapers, sheaves, sheaves and a locomobile for a thresher in front of the 1MV ... address - Beregovoye village, Pankrushikhinsky district
without the Bolsheviks, mechanization in agriculture would have gone as elsewhere in the world - according to the economic mechanism ... I note that now there are no Bolsheviks, and we export full stores and grain ...

[Koshnitsa]

Former cabinet land, the Siberian Kuban, there was a telephone exchange and several dozens of subscribers in Kosiha in 1913, and the monument is so good in the center of the internationalists who died at the hands of enemies in 1932 with beautiful Chinese and Latvian surnames.

[ser56]

Quote: Koshnitsa

they are often red partisans and Red Army soldiers who received benefits and rose a little.

by the way - this is well shown by Sholokhov in the Virgin Soil Upturned - Frol Ragged ... and my grandfather fought in the Great Patriotic War, took the Crimea ... but dispossessed and exiled ...

[Koshnitsa]

No, Tit Borodin, Titok there was a red partisan, whom I understood was leaning against the wall, and Frol the Ripped one was a red man. Damaskov was his last name, old, still clearly rooted to Peter.
There were 8 people at a red partisan farm, and the Krasnoyarsk people who had fought at Budenny’s row were several dozen, including Polovtsev.
Creepy anti-Soviet work.
It ends with the fact that all the passionaries of the farm destroyed each other, all sorts of mugs like Kondrat Maydannikov and chmyry like grandfather Shchukar remained.
And ahead of the famine and the mass of all sorts of interests.

[ser56]

I agree, a terrible anti-Soviet and Sholokhov wrote everything almost openly ... I just slightly changed my point of view to please the authorities ...

[ser56]

Quote: merlin

Understood in the USSR, but the cadre preferred their

then remember that the prototype of the EM project 7 was Italian ships, as well as the KR project 26 ...
bought documentation and turbines for EM in England ... They even looked at the documentation for the German battleship, but cheated ... but the GK towers were ordered ...

[marline]

Before commenting, read the message carefully

[ser56]

Quote: stalkerwalker

The Bolsheviks fought for the same thing .... wassat
For a single and indivisible ..

Are you seriously so illiterate? The Bolsheviks fought in the Great Patriotic War for the World Revolution ... And they divided the united Russia into national rags, now we are reaping the fruits of this policy in the former republics ...

[ser56]

Quote: stalkerwalker

The person who was involved in the question of nationalities, and wrote several dozen books and works, could not know the Russian language.

however, he didn’t learn foreign languages ​​either ... For some reason, all the Soviet leaders were poorly educated, except for the VIL, but they taught him under the tsar ...

[Koshnitsa]

For more than 50 years, Dzhugashvili lived among Russians and did not know how to speak Russian.
One of the signs of autism, by the way.

[Karenius]

Quote: Koshnitsa

For more than 50 years, Dzhugashvili lived among Russians and did not know how to speak Russian.
One of the signs of autism, by the way.

Koshnitsa, this is already too much ... A person with autism will not be able to arrange drunken orgies from the repertoire of Dzhugashvili !!!
You can read about his phenomenal memory in Isakov’s memoirs ...
And who, if not Stalin, could gouge Eurobolshevism ??? I don’t see Russians on such a list ... He saved the Russian ethnic group ... Definitely.

[Koshnitsa]

It does not interfere.
Memory and autism are quite neighboring things.
I don’t know about the Russians, he despised like any Mandarin man, but he exempted the Georgians from taxes.

[Karenius]

About memory, I added this as an add-on ... The main thing I said about drunken orgies - not one down can do it ...

[Koshnitsa]

Well, what a down, autism quite allows itself, especially since a person consumed wine mainly, a Mediterranean culture.
And in recent works, scientists have found that AUTS2 performs Stakhanov feats in the brain of patients with attention deficit, increased impulsivity and sensitivity of the brain to alcohol intoxication.

Scientists double-checked the results of the meta-analysis in an experiment with mice. Genetics selected rodents who voluntarily became addicted to alcohol. No one forced animals to lap diluted vodka from a bowl - they chose whether to drink or not to drink. Schumann's colleagues examined the brain tissue of rodent teetotalers and alcoholic mice. It turned out that the autism gene is more active in the brain of drinking rodents and their offspring.

By examining the tissues of the human brain, scientists obtained the same results.

[Karenius]

Sorry, I wrote a different term instead of autism.
How difficult it is when you drink more than ten liters of good Georgian wine at the table - you probably missed the opportunity to check in your youth. :)
And yet, it was precisely Dzhugashvili who saved the Russian ethos !!!
Well, there is your opinion about the exemption of Georgians from taxes - it's "little things in life" :)

[Koshnitsa]

In Abkhazia, the Georgian colonists were also remembered.

[Gopnik]

marline
All the less reason to suspect him of bias.

So his share of RI in 1913 is not 4-5%, but 8,2%


marline
What prevented England from riveting tanks?

No one bothered. When needed, they began to rivet. This is the Soviet Union in peacetime made thousands of pieces of iron, and due to this, he, like, a large share of industrial production

marline
And who and what did England snag?

Yes, not at all the USSR

marline
Well done.

Of course, well done. This is what a truly industrialized power means, not a bubble with puffed numbers.

marline
And that. At whose expense did heavy industry grow?

At the expense of state money and recruited workers.

marline
And yet an article on mortality, not hunger.
About mortality.
No one argues that it was hard, and no one argues about malnutrition either, but there was no mass hunger.

And, well, of course, millions of people suddenly died of mental distress, that the Germans got the harvest of 1941 and 1942, and the food aid of the Allies has not yet ripened.

marline In fact, it is very interesting to poke a finger in the USSR and bashfully ignore RI. Or maybe give statistics statistics on mortality with 1890g. according to 1910, when there was no war and hunger, it seems, too ...


Bring - let's see. There was no supermortality, except for the year Tsar of Famine (several hundred thousand, not millions). As there was no supermortality of 4 million during the WWII.

[Koshnitsa]

In WWI, in general, the population of the empire grew, these people later won the war.

[marline]

Quote: Gopnik

So his share of RI in 1913 is not 4-5%, but 8,2%

So that you know the share of RI in the global production of 1,2%.
And present a fragment from Kennedy with 8,2%

Quote: Gopnik

This is the Soviet Union in peacetime made thousands of pieces of iron, and due to this, he, like, has a large share of industrial production

Numbers - there are numbers.

Quote: Gopnik

This is what a truly industrialized power means, not a bubble with puffed numbers.

Are you talking about RI? Totally agree with you. RI is a classic banana republic, only a monarchy.

Quote: Gopnik

At the expense of state money and recruited workers.

It was like that in the USSR.

Quote: Gopnik

And, well, it’s clear that millions of people suddenly died of a mental disorder

No, people on Khodynka were dying from mental distress.
For the rest, the opinion of an eyewitness of a well-fed and rich life in the Republic of Ingushetia:
When we went on hunger, we thought a lot about how and where we will get bread and other products. In fact, it turned out that almost everywhere where we had to feed, it was possible either in the same village or in the neighborhood to find rich men who have any amount of bread. Such rich men were found in Yefimovka, and we bought 1,000 pood from them on the very first day. wheat by 1 rub. 45 cop. for pood. (The usual price of wheat in those places 60 - 70 cop.). ... In addition to those diseases that were caused by the acute moment of hunger: typhoid, scurvy, stomatitis, night blindness, gastritis, I, daily for six months in contact with the life of the village, could ascertain a number of other, chronic diseases. Summing up the results of my medical activity in an outpatient journal, I was convinced that 40% of the villagers of Pokrovo-Tananykovskaya volost are infected with syphilis; 75% of all women suffer from gynecological diseases, there is a sufficient percentage of bone tuberculosis, especially among Tatars, and, finally, colossal infant mortality everywhere. To find out the exact picture of child mortality, I wrote in an outpatient journal how many children were born to each woman who came to me and how many died before they were eight years old. This record showed me that 85% of all children die. Here I do not have the opportunity to enter into a detailed discussion of all the reasons that determine this state of the village. But the main reason is undoubtedly the fact that at 40000 of the population of the medical site there is only one doctor; a daily colossal outpatient appointment takes all the time and energy from the doctor, and of course, you don’t even have to think about the cultural impact of medicine on village hygiene. So, for example, the whole Pokrovsky-Tananykovsky volost is infected with syphilis, and the population does not have even the most elementary concepts about the course and symptoms of this disease, does not know the simplest ways to protect itself from infection: children eat from the same cup with syphilitics as adults, any disease they have - “Cold” or “typhoid fever”. The activities of healers, shopkeepers, “knowing grandmothers” who “lived in rags in the city”, all the so-called traditional medicine, in the worst sense of the word, flourishes in the village ...

[Koshnitsa]

No, people on Khodynka were dying from mental distress. // Here it is. From starvation, they were dying.

[Vadim237]

"There was no mass hunger" - What are you, and death from starvation from 4 to 7 million people, this is not like the consequences of mass starvation?

[Cat]

From my point of view - without collectivization, industrialization would have been impossible, and without industrialization the USSR would have simply been crushed. In fact, the IMHO collectivization was not aimed at destroying the peasantry, but at displacing it into the cities, into working hands for the industry growing at a frantic pace.

[Vadim237]

And it became a catalyst for the end of the village as such - the countryside becomes deserted.

[Koshnitsa]

And why industrialization-In order to fight, and why they abandoned all the equipment and had to fill up with corpses-So Hitler attacked and helped industrialization, so they prepared for war.
Endless circle.
The proportion of mountain chimpanzee lawyers is heavy.

[Cat]

That is, if there were no tanks in 1943, would it be better?
And about chimpanzees - I don’t understand your breeds. I don’t care: what a chimp, what a gorilla - one vegetable is obliged

[Koshnitsa]

And there is a relationship with collectivization and the presence of the lack of tanks, especially since they were produced in Russia without any dispossession.

[Vadim237]

The Bolsheviks, as well as the revolution, looted the entire Russian treasury - and there was no money for 1500 power plant factories, and then they immediately found a way out - let's rob the village again.

[Nikolay R]

In World War I, the Germans would have lost the war since their resources were depleted. And as historians say, if the Russians retreated even 100 km a month, it would still be a victory for Russia.
In general, if it had not been for the trouble of 17, then 41-45 would not have happened either.

[wooja]

Fists, repressions ...., lies, propaganda ...., everything happened as it happened, all the participants in these events made a lot of mistakes, for which we are paying now ... whether we will draw the right conclusions from the past, whether we can do something fix ... this is the most important thing. Who is right who is to blame is no longer a question.

[Cat]

It seems that in THIS country, the Civil War will never end ...

[Koshnitsa]

in THIS country, the citizens of Israel say.

[Koshnitsa]

Quote: merlin

The activities of healers-shopkeepers, “knowledgeable grandmothers” who lived with “doctors in the city in cookware” - all so-called traditional medicine in the worst sense of the word flourishes in the countryside...

And there were no tomographs.
These are the leaden abominations of tsarism

[Charik]

Governor of the Voronezh Region Alexander Gusev said that "there is nothing illegal" in the fact that his deputy Yuri Agibalov received a "golden parachute" in the amount of 23 official salaries, after which he returned to the same position

[Koshnitsa]

Quote: Claymore

Collectivization is just an enlargement of farms, leading to an increase in labor productivity - it was not necessary to pay for it with lives.

If only it were voluntary. In the USSR it cost tens of millions of lives.

[Claymore]

Quote: Koshnitsa

If it were voluntary

It was voluntary.

In the USSR it cost tens of millions of lives.

Not worth it.

[Koshnitsa]

In the village of Staroshcherbinovskaya, the memory of the victims of the “Holodomor” was immortalized - the events of 1932-33, when, as a result of the food policy of the Bolsheviks, 18 thousand people out of 22,5 thousand living in the village died of hunger.
What a nonsense, right?

[Claymore]

Aren't you tired of delirious and running away from direct questions?

[Koshnitsa]

Come to Kuban, there are memorials in the center of the villages.
Ask around.
Just be careful, otherwise you might swallow your teeth and wash it down with the soup.

[Koshnitsa]

This is where you tell the villagers about voluntariness, bloodlessness, and so on.

[Claymore]

I asked a specific question, and in response I received another swaying of the hips - which means I’m not tired.

[Vadim237]

It was voluntary - In a beautiful fairy tale, from this poverty - collective farms, young people began to flee in the late 30s to public construction sites, etc.

[Claymore]

I’ll tell you more, everything was so bad in the Soviet Union that starting in 41, young people began to volunteer to go to war.

Write escho, Nobel laureate!

[Koshnitsa]

Especially in 1991, they fled to protect the USSR, and especially people like you.

[Claymore]

Because by 91 the state was no longer socialist - thanks to people like you.

[Cat]

It was voluntary.

When and in what state were reforms voluntary?
It's like forcing a cat to eat mustard - i.e. smear it under his tail! He will scream and lick. How the principle “voluntarily and with song” is implemented

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Koshnitsa,
Some of the nobles were also members of the Politburo. The disenfranchised died on December 5.12.1936, 01.09.1931, and everyone began to be accepted into the army on September XNUMX, XNUMX

[Koshnitsa]

Should Cossacks and nobles be drafted into the army in the 30s? Well, maybe some of the Kombedov’s sixes, but for the most part, not.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Sorry, typo. 01.09.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX

[Koshnitsa]

This is according to propaganda, but in reality such categories began to be drafted into the army in 42, when there really weren’t enough people.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Judging by the facts, it was the other way around - on paper it was a ban, but in reality - they didn’t really look at the questionnaire. The well-known rule: “In Russia, the severity of laws is compensated by the optionality of their implementation,” even at that time no one has canceled it.

[Koshnitsa]

Yes, of course, people before Khrushchev, returning from the front, went to check in.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Only people didn't know about it.

[Koshnitsa]

What people?
My relatives who returned from the front went to check in until the mid-50s.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Yeah? Where and about what?

[Koshnitsa]

We went to the cops wherever we went.
Moreover, people who were 5-9 years old at the time of the revolution.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

To the cops, then? I thought you would say: "in the MGB." And what did you go to check in on? And for what reason exactly?

[Koshnitsa]

Quote: 020500

Stalin actually saved them and their family members from extrajudicial killings by the rural poor, which had already begun throughout Russia.

The drunkards and lazy people themselves would not have jumped on the right owners, and if they had jumped, they would have lost their last health.

[Koshnitsa]

Claymore,
Publicists Menshikov and Tolstoy are just publicists.

[Claymore]

They simply wrote down what they witnessed...

[Koshnitsa]

Read carefully, just not the fakes about 40% who do not eat meat, published in a Burkina Faso magazine, but non-existent in reality.
Tolstoy wrote that, of course, there is no such famine in Russia as in India, where people die.

[Claymore]

Maybe you should still read Tolstoy before you write another nonsense?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Gopnik,
Among the commanders of ground fronts at different times in 1941-45, former officers make up no less, but more than 40%.

[Gopnik]

Nonsense. Fortunately, the biographies of all commanders can be read on the same Wiki. You can count the number of WWII officers there on one hand, and those who had combat experience as an officer and commanded a company-team in a real battle - on one hand

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Well, recount it. Make sure I'm right. I counted it. It’s the same with army commanders.

[Gopnik]

I recalculated. There were 44 front commanders. Before the October Maidan, officer epaulets were worn by 16 people, which is less than 40%. At the same time, there is only one career officer - Reiter, wartime officers with combat experience - 11 people, 4 - wartime officers in the rear, in reserve units. Those. Only 27% are combat officers, with the majority having fairly little combat experience; it’s good if they managed to command a company.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

44 - did you and the NKVD officers count it? Well, if their fronts are also fronts, then of course...

But whatever they are, they are still officers. And there were 17 of them, not 16. On the other hand, if instead they were entirely personnel, it’s not a fact that it would have gotten better. Did the same Reuters show itself strongly? That's it.

[Gopnik]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

But whatever they are, they are still officers

That's exactly what they are - wartime officers, without full-fledged military education and without normal command experience

Quote: Sahar Medovich

On the other hand, if instead they were entirely staffed, it’s not a fact that it would have gotten better. Has Reuters shown itself strongly?

Well, yes, indeed, professional education is unnecessary - you need a class instinct and origin, so what. Reiter performed well, above average in every way

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Is the General Staff Academy not a full-fledged military education? Next, did our generals have no education or diploma? Agree, this is not the same thing. In this regard, our least educated (allegedly!) commanders were Zhukov and Rokossovsky, and Chernyakhovsky had the least amount of command experience. But what they turned out to be, and that same Reuters with his “above average” attitude.
Actually, our conversation at first was about the proportion of former officers among Soviet generals, and not about their education. When it turned out that I was right, did you decide to say WHAT - that these are inferior officers and they don’t count? Sorry, but this is not serious.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Koshnitsa,
Not a lie, but a fact. The thing is stubborn. ))

[Koshnitsa]

Semennikova, perhaps? Well, they found authority.
He's not an expert.
So what about the heroic past of Tymoshenko, Zhukov and Voroshilov in WWI?
Guess there were Knights of St. George, cough, cough?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Koshnitsa,
Yes, we did. Yes, they did. Tymoshenko didn’t leave any memoirs, which means there are some.

[Koshnitsa]

Are there any sources for the participation of these subjects in the battles of the First World War?
By the way, there is one on Rokossovsky.
Budyonny has one, though he only had two crosses, then he wore fakes of a full bow, but that’s it, Dumenko flogged him for that.
AVoroshilov, Zhukov, Kaganovich, Scriabin, Timoshenko - there is no information about their participation in WWI.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Well, yes, Zhukov came up with everything about his service. And his photograph from 1916 is also a fake? If you have nothing nice to say, talk about fashion.

[Koshnitsa]

Zhukov came up with it, definitely.
I do not deny his service in the rear training team, which, by the way, he described in detail and thoroughly, with names and positions.
It was only in vain that he invented a non-existent rank for himself - vice-non-commissioned officer.
But he was not at the front and did not receive awards.
If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide an example.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

That is, when it suits you, you believe the “memoir nonsense”? Not objectively, sir!

[Koshnitsa]

I always check, Sakhar Medovich, because Soviet nonsense is in everything.
Only objectivity.
You will find real facts of Yegor Zhukov’s participation as part of the 10th Novgorod Dragoon Regiment in the battles of WWII - you will make an invaluable contribution to world beetle research.
And so a small lie gives rise to great mistrust.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

And show evidence that he was not at the front, but sat in the rear! Otherwise, your words are just speculation and slander.

[Koshnitsa]

Easily.
(November 19 (December 1), 1896, our hero was born, and could be drafted into the RIA upon reaching the age of 20. Well, he was drafted into the training team, which he described briefly in his memoirs. And then the revolution and that’s it, pushed around he left the service.
What other front?

[Koshnitsa]

An example can be given of age reduction
By decree of March 16, 1915, Emperor Nicholas II ordered: “... We order those subject to military service in 1916 to be drafted... in 1915.”
But, we are talking about those who have fully reached the age of 19, and Yegor is only 18.
Let's move on, our hero talks quite well about his service in the training unit, but there are inconsistencies from the front line. Read and think for yourself

[Sugar Honeyovich]

So Rokossovsky, Zakharov, Konev, Zakhvataev also turned out to be 18 years old in the army. And they were at the front. What's unusual here?

[Koshnitsa]

Because conscription began at the age of 19, in 1917 only those who were 1898 at the time of conscription were conscripted.
Rokossovsky volunteer.

[tezey]

The topic is interesting. In Russian history, the land issue has always been the main one. It was not resolved during tsarist times. Stolypin's reforms did not lead to success. The provisional government also did not resolve the issue. And only the Bolsheviks, by transferring the land to the peasants for free, which was very important, eternal use, made the peasantry their ally. In a country where there were 80% of the peasant population, the defeat of the whites was predetermined.

[Koshnitsa]

You write fairy tales, Theseus.
The issue was resolved, Stolypin's reform would end all the problems.
Did the peasants overthrow the Tsar, or stage a coup in October, or vote for the Bolsheviks?

[Koshnitsa]

Alexander Green,
Germany attacked Russia both times and its allies.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Germany attacked Russia both times and its allies.

And it's all? You need to dig deeper, learn dialectics, then you won’t write nonsense.

[Koshnitsa]

German imperialism started world wars twice in the 20th century.

[Koshnitsa]

Sahar Medovich,
To note that he is in this place. He has not gone anywhere. Didn't run away.
Are you not aware of this practice?

[Koshnitsa]

Sahar Medovich,
Well, like special settlers, although they lived in their native village

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Ah, special settlers! That's what they would have said right away. And God knows what I already thought. But here I have vague guesses - WHAT kind of front-line soldiers they were.

[Koshnitsa]

They were not special settlers, they lived in their native village.
Front-line soldiers, the most ordinary ones, sappers and infantry.
Since 1942, EU.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Koshnitsa,
Those. those who turned 19 this year were subject to conscription. But at the time of conscription they were 18. With Zhukov it was the same as with others, it is not clear what you have against him.

[Koshnitsa]

Do I really deny that Zhukov served in the RIA? No, I don't deny it.
Served.
In the reserve cavalry regiment.
But he didn’t take part in battles and didn’t have any awards.
And already in his memoirs he slightly corrected the sad reality.
And if some other kind person convinces me that Yegor Zhukov was at the front and received awards for his exploits there, I will generally be very grateful to this person.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

However, you have no proof.

[Koshnitsa]

There is plenty of evidence of Zhukov’s non-participation in battles.
There is no evidence of his involvement.
The memoirs are scribbled haphazardly, where he makes a mistake.
Reporting non-existent battlefields and unrealistic feats.
But Alexey Oleinikov did not find him in the lists of the 10th Novgorod Dragoon Regiment.
Well, here's the cherry on your cake.
Archival researchers have confirmed only two Budyonny crosses: 4th degree No. 643701 for distinction on May 21, 1916 and 3rd degree No. 203480.
Also in the application form for joining the party, Semyon admitted that he had only two crosses.
And he wore other people’s awards, specially made for him. The rest is clumsy falsification, including photographs of strangers.
If you can find me the St. George's awards of Yegor (George, Yuri) Zhukov, non-commissioned officer of the Novgorod Dragun Regiment and their numbers, I will be very grateful.
Like all world beetle studies.
The databases are publicly available.
Also look for Semyon Konstantinovich Timoshenko’s awards, or anyone else.
However, it’s better not to look, don’t waste time.

[Koshnitsa]

You have it.
Doesn't appear on the lists.
Georgy Konstantinovich was talking about his heroic youth.
And a small lie gives rise to great mistrust. (C).

[Sugar Honeyovich]

It will truly be proven when it is confirmed that Zhukov spent all his time in the training team in the rear. And what about “no documents”....I had seven relatives who fought in WW1. There are killed, there are disabled people, there are those who were captured. Archived data - only for one! Killed. Moreover, where he served is not indicated. So “no documents” does not necessarily mean “there was no event.”

[Koshnitsa]

Were your relatives awarded St. George's Crosses? If there were, then you can find them, I found mine.
If you find a non-commissioned officer of the 10th Novgorod Dragoon Regiment, Yegor Zhukov, I will be grateful.
[b]In October 1916, I was unlucky: while I was on reconnaissance with my comrades on the approaches to Saye-Regen in the lead patrol, we ran into a mine and were blown up. Two were seriously wounded, and I was thrown out of the saddle by the blast wave....
I got from the squadron to the training team as a young soldier, and returned with non-commissioned officer’s stitches, front-line experience and two St. George’s crosses on my chest, which I was awarded for the capture of a German officer and shell shell.
Ay-yay-yay, on the approaches to Saye-Regen he was devastated, G.K. Zhukov, the front line did not reach this city by as much as 80 km.
That's all, but Konstantinovich flew over the Carpathian ridge, got shell-shocked and back...
There is no information about his service in the Novgorod Dragoon Regiment and about his awards.
And they didn’t give a cross for shell shock. Otake here.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

I don’t know if they were Knights of St. George. Family legends are silent about this, there is nothing on the Internet. There was a relative who deserved “George” in Japanese, but nothing was said about him either. The main thing is that there is nothing about their retirement (except for one thing). By your logic, they didn’t fight? Same with Zhukov.

[Koshnitsa]

It’s easy to find ZOVO cavaliers using the REV.
http://forum.vgd.ru/32/23388

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Not easy. I searched and found one - a coincidence in the surname, a difference in the name. Either there is an error in the document, or he is not “our” person. No other data available. In WW1 there are also similarities in last name and first name, but this data is limited.

[Koshnitsa]

But Egor Zhukov is not in the database of crosses, and Timoshenko is not there either.
Budyonny has two, I won’t lie

[Sugar Honeyovich]

There is no data - there could be crosses. There were no crosses - Zhukov had military talent anyway.

[Koshnitsa]

We’ll talk about his talents later, while we see a clumsy attempt to falsify his military youth.
Where is the city of Saia Regen?

[nekromonger]

It’s difficult to comment on this nonsense, all the innocently convicted were attached to Yenukidze and his sexual perversions, and entire families with 10-12 children sent to their deaths are also enemies of the revolution?

[race]

The article is a complete justification for the crimes of the Bolsheviks.

Ordinary men hated the authorities (and after Bloody Sunday, the tsar lost his sanctity), the landowners who stole their land and the bourgeoisie, the capitalists, and all intellectuals in general.

Where such confidence? The peasants lived quite normally under the tsar. Those who wanted and knew how to work worked. After Stolypin's reform, many took ownership of land, worked and became prosperous. And the tsarist government, “hated by them,” encouraged this, because it benefited from a strong and rich peasantry, unlike the Bolsheviks, who only needed the proletariat - because it was easier to govern.
And further. Author, what kind of word is “then”? It wouldn't hurt for you to learn Russian. If you are already writing articles, then be kind enough to use literary Russian for this, and not local colloquial language. In general, the style of the language was very reminiscent of the Soviet textbook “history stories” for the 4th or 5th grade - a primitively simplified presentation of complex historical processes.