Military Review

IL-20. Analysis of the briefings of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation from 23 and 24 September

181
This article is written on the basis of much more complete information received from the Ministry of Defense. And is an improved version of the article from 24.09.2018.


In a speech by General Konashenkov from 24, September, a new radar information was presented in the form of photographs of the circular view indicator and the range-height indicator of the C-400 SAM, located at Khmeimim airfield. Unfortunately, the video, which allows to determine the trajectory of the aircraft, was not presented. Moreover, the posted photographs of the indicators contain only the part in which there are detected targets. Therefore, it is impossible to establish where the ground level is on the “range-height” indicator, and on the circular view indicator it is difficult to determine the scale in range. Therefore, the assessment of the tactical situation had to be performed by tying the pictures to the figures voiced by Konashenkov. It is especially difficult to analyze the fact that the area where the C-200 air defense system is located is not given and it is not indicated how many air defense systems made one or more launches. Also not specified the number of fired missiles. Consequently, the following numerical estimates are approximate, but they also allow us to estimate that the conclusions voiced by General Konashenkov contradict the data displayed on the indicators.

1. Tactical analysis

17.09.2018 on 20: 31 IL-20 has begun to patrol somewhere near the city of Idlib. In 21: 39, four Israeli F-16 fighters have entered the launch area of ​​the planning GBU-39 bombs. In the wake of this was given a warning about the beginning of an attack in the Russian Aerospace Force. The barrage zone was located in 90 km west of Latakia. The launch was made in 20: 40. These bombs are aimed at specified ground targets and do not pose a danger to other aircraft. Approximately in 7-10 minutes, these bombs reached their targets. Somewhere around this time, the commander Il-20 received, according to Konashenkov, an order to return to Hmeimim airfield. At that moment he was north of the airfield. The cruising altitude of the IL-20 is usually equal to 6 km.

IL-20. Analysis of the briefings of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation from 23 and 24 September

Ris.1

However, instead of landing IL-20, according to the photo in fig. 1, flew south and, flying east of the airfield at a distance 30 km to the south, for some reason turned to the west and went to sea, moving closer to the Israeli group. Then he turned to the north and continued to approach the group. In 21: 51, the Syrian air defense system began shelling Israeli F-16, and in response to this, the F-16 turned on REP.

The speed of the C-200 SAMs exceeds 1 km / sec., Therefore the time of the SAMs flight at a distance of up to 100 km does not exceed 1-2 minutes. Consequently, the Syrian air defense missile systems, even with the launch of a single anti-aircraft missile system, could have fired several pieces by the time IL-20 (22: 02) was defeated. In fig. 2 depicts the moment of approaching the fatal missiles to IL-20.


Ris.2

On a circular indicator, the center of the circle indicates the location of the C-400 radar. The length of the radius drawn from the center to the mark of the target means the range. Based on the fact that the three yellow marks denoting F-16 are, according to Konashenkov, at a distance of 70-80 km to the west from C-400, the range from C-400 to IL-20 is 20-30 km. Mark C-200 is located at a distance of approximately 50 km from C-400 and southeast of IL-20. Between the main group of F-16 and IL-20 there is a rendered single F-16, which, judging by other figures, is patrolling the area. The distance from the C-400 to this F-16 is approximately the same as that of the IL-20, and the distance from the IL-20 to the F-16 is 15-20 km. The distance from the missile to the IL-20 is 30-40 km. According to Konashenkov, the missile is flying in the direction of a single F-16. At the same time IL-20 is located near the line connecting the missiles and F-16.

In fig. 3 depicts the range-height indicator of the C-400 SAM system.


Fig. 3

On it, on the horizontal axis, the distance to the target is deposited, and on the vertical axis - its height, regardless of what azimuth the target is located at. Unfortunately, the indicator is not fully given, and the distance between the rectangular coordinate lines has to be guessed indirectly, based on the fact that the F-16 group has a height difference from 7 to 10 km. The height of a single F-16 - 9-10 km. The figure shows that the height of the IL-20 can be estimated at 5,5-6 km. It follows that the IL-20 flies at cruising altitude. Considering that the distance from the airfield and to the IL-20 is 25 km, and the maximum glide path angle during landing is 4 °, we find that the IL-20 cannot perform a direct landing on the airfield. Hence the most important conclusion: IL-20 DIDN'T GOING TO GET ON THE AERODROME, AND CONTINUED TO OBSERVE THE ISRAELIAN PLANES.

The height of the missiles is estimated at 16-18 km. Based on this, we see that the missile can see both F-16 and IL-20 from above, with F-16 located significantly higher than IL-20, and there can be no talk of "hiding" F-16 behind IL-20. The F-16 pilot can detect an attacking missile defense and interfere with it, intending to evade the attack due to a sharp maneuver with 5-9 overloads g.

Next, the missile system is approaching a single F-16 and at some point changes its direction dramatically and hits IL-20. In fig. 1 visible the last part of the trajectory of the IL-20 with a sharp turn to the east. Apparently, this section corresponds to the time interval when the pilot reports that the plane was hit, and he seeks to eliminate the fire.

2. Features of the functioning of the air defense missile systems with missiles with semi-active guidance

The C-200 SAM system was developed more than 40 years ago and is equipped with rather primitive, by modern concepts, radar and missile defense systems. Despite its enormous dimensions (length 11 m, weight 7 t), the missile system is not equipped with its own radar transmitter. It is guided by a signal reflected from the target. The target is irradiated by a specialized target illumination radar (ROC).

The ROC detects targets not on its own, but according to commands issued from the divisional controls. At KP, information about targets is obtained from a surveillance radar, the antenna of which rotates with a period of the order of 10 seconds, that is, information is updated at KP quite often, and all aircraft maneuvers are not left unnoticed. The Russian Orthodox Church constantly receives information about the azimuth and vertical angles of targets and their range and speed from the surveillance radar. ROC is present in the composition of each battery, which has 6 launchers missiles. The division commander indicates to the battery commander which of the targets should be hit. After that, the Russian Orthodox Church puts its antenna in the direction of the target to be hit, starts its support and prepares for launch.

2.1. Features of the functioning of the ROC

ROC can accompany the target in one of two modes:
- pulsed mode, in which the angles of targets caught in the beam and their distances are measured. The speed in this mode is practically not measured.
- the mode of continuous radiation of a sinusoidal signal, at which the angles and speed of the target are measured, and the distance is not measured. The missile is aimed at a target only in continuous mode.

Thus, the ROC, having received a target designation from the command post, can refine the target range in a pulsed mode, and then switch to a continuous mode and, measuring the target speed, start the missile attack. However, if the ROC commander decides that he does not have enough time to refine the target range, then he can immediately turn on continuous mode, hoping that the approximate data obtained from the surveillance radar on the target range for targeting it is sufficient.

2.2. Features ZUR

Zour receives from the ROC data on the angular direction of the target and its speed. At the same time, it can only be aimed at those targets that are highlighted by the ROC. Despite the fact that the beam of the Russian Orthodox Church is quite narrow (approximately 2 °), several targets can reach this beam, the range to which the SAM can not measure. Therefore, the missile defense will be induced on the target with the speed of movement that is given from the ROC. If the speed of the target being fired and the speed of any other target caught in the illumination beam turn out to be the same while targeting the SAM, then the SAM will be guided by that one whose signal will be more powerful.

The missile defense system has a very weak noise immunity, and the fighters' REB complexes can successfully suppress the received missile signal. In these cases, the missile system goes into a mode of pointing to a source of interference, that is, it measures only angles at the target, but does not measure its range and speed.

The adversary seeks to avoid targeting missiles at a jamming aircraft and usually organizes 2-3 group defense by jammers, the distance between which is about one kilometer. For this, flickering interference is applied, that is, interference is emitted only from one producer, the missile defense begins to be induced on it. Then the first director turns off and turns on the second, the missile is redirected to him, and the enemy makes such switchings every 1-3 seconds. The missile system is swinging the guidance loop, and it misses the target.

3. Reconstruction of the IL-20 defeat scenario

3.1. Tactical Reconstruction


We do not know either the location of the observation radar of the division, nor the type of the specific radar. However, it is clear that in the air defense missile system with a range of 300 km, surveillance radar will be very powerful. At least, even such small targets as F-16 (effective reflective surface of the image intensifier = 2 sq. M) will be detected at distances much greater than 200 km. The GBU-39 F-16 bombs are launched from altitudes of at least 10 km, otherwise they will not fly the required distance 100 km. Even if we assume that the F-16 attacks began at altitudes less than 1 km, that is, they were hiding behind a radio horizon, then at the time 10 km began to climb, they were guaranteed to be detected by a surveillance radar. Suppress surveillance radar interference F-16 is hardly capable. Hence the conclusion that the division commander had clear information about the fact of the beginning of the attack. The only thing that could be hidden by interference was the size of the group. Therefore, the decision to maneuver the IL-20 towards the sea can only be explained by the illiteracy of the air defense command. I would like to ask General Konashenkov: where were our advisers at that time?

Further, the proposed reconstruction comes into irreconcilable contradiction with the version of the Israeli media, according to which the Syrian air defense missile systems opened indiscriminate firing and fired more 100 missiles.

The battery has a total of 6 missiles on launchers, and, given that the weight of the missiles is 7 tons, the recharging time of the launchers should be quite long.

3.2. The author's version of events

The C-200 battery commander received instructions from the division commander to hit the nearest F-16. At the same time at this moment IL-20 was not yet in the beam of illumination. Preparing the missile launcher for launch took 10-15 seconds, and the flight took at least a minute. When approaching the F-16, the missile defense system was aimed at him as a source of interference, that is, she did not determine the target speed. At this time, IL-20, moving north, flew into the illumination beam and headed towards a single F-16. The image intensifier IL-20 can be evaluated in 40-50 sq. That is, at equal ranges, the signal power reflected from the IL-20 is 20-25 times the signal reflected from the F-16. But the IL-20 turned out to be at a crucial moment at a distance from the missile defense system that was half the size of the F-16. This led to an additional increase in the power of the signal reflected from the IL-20, 4-5 times, that is, the signal from the IL-20 was 100-120 times stronger than the signal reflected from the F-16. The beam width of the ZUR antenna is estimated at 5-6 °, that is, the SAM also saw both targets at the same time. Moreover, the signal reflected from the IL-20, was much more powerful than the interference emitted by the F-16. At this moment, in accordance with the statement of General Konashenkov, the missile system sharply refocused and went to the source of a powerful signal - IL-20. This is indirectly confirmed by the fact that the SAM, despite the high power of the warhead, could not instantly hit the IL-20. Therefore, at the moment of retargeting, she abruptly changed the trajectory and made a big mistake.

4. findings

Both the battalion commander and the battery commander were required to fully know the tactical situation, since the IL-20 maneuvers had to be informed by the crew commander. The trajectories of the Israeli F-16 reported from the observation radar. No references to the fact that the Syrian air defense missile systems did not have data from the Russian respondents of the system of state identification are invalid, since the tactical situation was very clear without these data. Consequently, the disaster is explained only by the extremely low level of preparation of the calculations of the Syrian air defense missile systems and the insufficient level of interaction with our advisors.

Blaming the command of the Israeli Air Force that they did not forbid their pilots to turn on the jammers and defend themselves against attacks from the air defense missile system - hypocrisy.

5. On the proposals of the Minister Shoigu on the transfer of the C-300 air defense system to the Syrian air defense

5.1. Comparative assessment of C-200 and C-300


C-300 is a qualitatively new development conducted in the 80-s. In C-200, the ROC antenna is mechanically driven and therefore can simultaneously accompany and fire only one target. In C-300, a passive phased array antenna (PAR) has been applied, which makes it possible to instantly switch the radar beam to any direction of the working angle sector. As a result, the C-300 can simultaneously track dozens of targets and direct them to 6 sour simultaneously. On battery launchers can be up to 32 SAM. To reduce the influence of jammers on the radar, it uses three specialized noise cancellers, which significantly improves the C-300 noise immunity with respect to C-200. During the flight, the battery commander can receive data from the missile defense system and retarget it if necessary.

5.2. Evaluation of possible deliveries of C-300 to Syria

Replacing a single-channel air defense system with a 6-channel will require significant retraining of Syrian officers. So powerful weapon in the hands of untrained calculations will pose even greater danger to our aircraft. Apparently, our officers will have to serve C-300.

A single C-300 is unable to repel the attack of the Israeli Air Force, if it is directed at him. Such attacks are accompanied by coordinated use of jammers and anti-radar missiles. To repel such attacks, we will need to install an air defense missile system division consisting of at least three C-300 batteries, which together will be able to destroy jammers. In fact, this means that we will take the defense of Syria against Israeli air attacks. Such a decision can only be made by the commander in chief, given that it will change the entire political map of the Middle East.
Author:
Articles from this series:
IL-20. Whose head is sick, whose head is healthy?
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  1. 7gor
    7gor 26 September 2018 06: 11
    +7
    Well it started! Radar developer, test pilots and other fake personalities smile ! The informational counteraction has begun! I don't believe you guys negative
    1. minus
      minus 26 September 2018 06: 47
      +13
      But is it not Totley is Andrei Gorbachevsky, an aviation expert, a veteran developer, or a former head of a sector of the state aviation system? Which Tu-160 is absolutely not needed plane and dagger bullshit?
      1. minus
        minus 26 September 2018 06: 57
        +8
        Apparently he ... And in fact there is practically no information about him ... And confirmation of qualification ... Although he even has a patent for a DRLS plane ... Here is such a plane ... Here I can’t download for some reason then ...
        http://www.freepatent.ru/patents/2392191
        His pictures from this "patent" are impressive, and after that the articles of this "expert" can be omitted)
        1. KERMET
          KERMET 26 September 2018 09: 03
          -1
          And why didn’t the pictures please you?
          The aim of the invention is to increase the detection range and reduce the mass of the aircraft.
          the aerodynamics of such a plane will still be, but looking at what freaks - drones are flying now, it's not so bad
          1. Vladimir 5
            Vladimir 5 26 September 2018 17: 23
            0
            Pictures and signature of the radar developer !!!, (if there was such a thing, probably for a long time in a better world), an obvious injection of propaganda war by such specialists .. This "specialist" does not take into account many basic facts, especially that the F-16 did not patrol, as written in the article, but simulated a repeated attack with the ON suppression of air defense, which provoked the launch of the S-200 - this alone shows in him deliberate actions (there was no weapon launch) and the culprit of a rigged disaster. The essence of the article is to divert from the main culprits of the disaster, the conclusions of the article are uniquely created to help the Israelis ... And why does the VO not look through materials with explicit pro-Israel propaganda with falsifications ...
            1. yehat
              yehat 28 September 2018 12: 45
              +1
              In the presented version, one thing confuses me: the description of the behavior of the IL-20 airplane cannot be called anything other than suicidal - it specifically begs to be raked.
              I can’t imagine a pilot who will voluntarily behave in such a way, especially since at least part of the crew of the plane simply had to understand the specifics of the S-200 and talk about danger. Therefore, in my opinion, the article has a forgery in factology about the aircraft.
              I also do not agree with the unambiguous conclusion that the plane did not go on landing (as well as believe that it was) - there are simply no facts presented.
        2. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 26 September 2018 22: 08
          +3
          Looked at the link to the patent. Rare bullshit. How this "plane" will fly in general, the authors do not care at all - they are writers, not readers.
        3. NordUral
          NordUral 27 September 2018 09: 49
          -1
          His idea is not without flaws, but quite robust. Any car is the result of trade-offs of the pros and cons of the design.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. letinant
      letinant 26 September 2018 10: 03
      +4
      He is a clown. It can be seen right away that "Andrei Gorbachevsky, radar design engineer" has nothing to do with RTV at all.
  2. Wedmak
    Wedmak 26 September 2018 06: 43
    +30
    1. Tell me, how can a radar development engineer know the features of guidance of the C-200 missile system?
    2. Carrying out the analysis, for some reason you did not mention the fact that the planes are moving, and the Israeli F-16 has much greater speed. Hence your conclusions about the innocence of Israel are not true.
    3. According to your analysis and the features of the missiles, you can come to another conclusion: F-16, being closer to the missiles, turned on the REP, making a maneuver (did he see the threat ?!), turned it off, knowing that there was a much larger signature IL. SAM, acting according to its algorithm, having lost the source of interference, found a new one that glowed against the background of the F-16 like a Christmas tree - IL-20. And no matter what he was next. Accordingly, it was aimed at him.
    Here is the conclusion for you, the RF Ministry of Defense is right, F-16 really covered up with IL. He only did this, not flying to our back, but by the work of his REP station and maneuver. That is, the provocation was carefully planned, the flaws of the C-200 and its missiles were used, and any other aircraft could be in place of the IL. This is evidenced by all the actions of Israeli aircraft - and waiting before and after the attack, and the separation of one aircraft from the group, and the work of REP fighters.
    Another question begs, how much would the F-16 expect after an impact if our IL had not appeared? What did they even wait there? Appearances of the victim? And if it were a civilian side shot down by a Syrian missile, how many statements would have come from NATO and their henchmen? An ideal option for a massive attack by Syria from the armada of ships that the United States drove to Mediterranean.
    1. alstr
      alstr 26 September 2018 06: 59
      +15
      I will add that the author confuses the terms: Battery, division, complex.
      1. rum
        rum 26 September 2018 08: 24
        +2
        For some reason, it seems to me that under this * air and radar development engineer * an employee of the relevant services or local of this site works ...
        1. Konstantin Shevchenko
          Konstantin Shevchenko 26 September 2018 13: 33
          +3
          Very touchy and puts a ban like an insult. I am not indifferent to Israel.
    2. KERMET
      KERMET 26 September 2018 09: 15
      +5
      According to paragraph 1- why is a radar developer not supposed to know the mode of operation of missiles?
      Under paragraph 3 - the author writes that the F-16 turned off its radar not because of the IL-20, but because it worked out group defense
      1. Wedmak
        Wedmak 26 September 2018 09: 31
        +10
        Under item 1

        Because missiles and radar are different systems? And by the way, what kind of radar developer is our author?
        but because he practiced group defense

        Far from the group? The author draws an owl by the ears, trying to convince us that IL-20 itself flew up to the group F-16. But now the question arises: what did the single F-16 do next to the IL-20 when the latter entered the landing course? The speeds of the fighter and reconnaissance are not comparable, it’s a pity they didn’t show the dynamics on the radar, it would be more clear who flew to whom.
        The author made his conclusions, I made mine. He decided that the Syrians were to blame, I decided that the Jews were to blame. And we have the same data.
        But we are moving away from the main topic: WHAT F-16 did in the waiting area before and after the attack. Why was the attack informed a minute before it started, and the area was incorrectly indicated? Why did one of the F-16 hang around next to the Khmeimim approach corridor? And in general, the main reason: why are the Israeli air forces giving themselves the right to bomb the territory of a neighboring country, spitting on international law?
        1. KERMET
          KERMET 26 September 2018 09: 48
          +9
          Well, the author of the article generally concludes that Il was not going to land, and about Israel they even fought there before us — they are fighting there for real, and not like ours — we are fighting here, but here there are no partners
          1. Wedmak
            Wedmak 26 September 2018 10: 23
            +6
            and not like ours - we’re fighting here, but here there aren’t partners here

            Here I agree. We differentiate too much, here are terrorists, here are militants, here is Israel, here is Turkey ... You just had to put it on the edge - here are militants, terrorists. We are bombing here. Flights of other aircraft are prohibited. Whoever sticks in there is himself an evil Pinocchio.
            1. Alsur
              Alsur 26 September 2018 17: 23
              +4
              And I do not agree with you. That's who really fights against terrorists: SAA, Russia, Iran. And Israel is fighting with the CAA and Iran. Now with Russia. So who selectively fights is Israel.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 26 September 2018 18: 01
                +1
                Quote: ALSur
                That's who really fights against terrorists

                You do not recall which cities at different times were the capitals of the IS forbidden in Russia? Whose are they now?
          2. 11 black
            11 black 28 September 2018 13: 51
            0
            Quote: KERMET
            Well, the author of the article generally concludes that Il was not going to land, and about Israel they even fought there before us — they are fighting there for real, and not like ours — we are fighting here, but here there are no partners

            The conclusion about "I was not going to land" generally puts a "cross" on the author. And if the plane flew at an altitude of 10 km, what would he, according to the "author's" logic, go to the glide path from 150 kilometers?
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. ccsr
          ccsr 26 September 2018 21: 52
          +1
          Quote: Wedmak
          But now the question arises: what did the single F-16 do next to the IL-20, when the latter went on a landing course?

          This is a key question that the Israelis will not answer, although it is clear that this maneuver was the main element of all the provocation.
        4. NordUral
          NordUral 27 September 2018 09: 52
          +2
          Israel is definitely to blame. But the explanations of the MO are very unconvincing. And in general questions to the flight route of Ila cloud. As well as the lack of reaction of the VKS command on the spot due to the appearance of the four on the radar.
        5. yehat
          yehat 28 September 2018 14: 00
          -1
          And in general, the main reason: why are the Israeli air forces giving themselves the right to bomb the territory of a neighboring country, spitting on international law?


          The Israelis say there was no peace between Syria and Israel, there was a truce that Syria violated by actively supplying the "freedom fighters" in Palestine with the help of Iran. Therefore, they consider themselves free from the usual international peacefulness.
  3. 210ox
    210ox 26 September 2018 06: 47
    +9
    At the end of the article is a diagnosis of Syrian air defense. And in fact, why are the officers who are in the most threatened direction, not our officers, as in Vietnam, for example?
    1. Per se.
      Per se. 26 September 2018 10: 27
      +9
      Quote: 210ox
      At the end of the article the diagnosis of Syrian air defense
      It would be better if there was an analysis of the Russian air defense, and who is Syria to us. If Syria is our ally, why can anyone bomb our ally, what right does Israel have in general, to strike at Syrian territory, without declaring war, without UN sanction? They think there, they decided there, flew in and bombed, but what if they flew in to bomb Israel in order to prevent? Major General Konashenkov speaks to the media, schemes, arguments, evidence ... There was an act of aggression against an ally, there was a threat to the Russian plane, so why the hell are our S-400s there, why didn't they defend, didn't take revenge? So it turns out that first, guys, figure it out, if we climbed into Syria, who we are for the Syrians, it turns out, not a friend, not an enemy, but so ... Moreover, even for our soldiers they cannot stand up with us, snot chew in front of the "partners". There were no officially our troops in Vietnam, and the Yankees washed their blood there, losing many planes and helicopters. What is the difference, perhaps, in the fact that then there were two world poles, and now there is one, and we are sitting in this pole under its Anglo-Saxon masters and the Jewish lobby.
      1. parma
        parma 26 September 2018 11: 02
        +2
        Quote: Per se.
        strike at Syrian territory, without declaring war, without UN sanction

        Israel has officially been at war with Syria for many years ... So they’re bombing not without declaring war ... Hezbollah is recognized as a terrorist organization in Israel and not only (for us they are essentially illegal armed groups), so (from their point of view ) they bomb terrorists on enemy territory (although no permission is needed to strike at enemy territory and this is not a violation of international law) ... It’s more difficult with Iran ... There are no legal rights ... But Iran is not running anywhere ... With us, too, a separate question ....
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 26 September 2018 12: 11
          +3
          Quote: parma
          It’s more difficult with Iran ... There are no legal rights ...

          This is someone you tell, after the Israeli bombing of the nuclear center in Iraq in 1981?
          1. parma
            parma 26 September 2018 12: 28
            -3
            You (if this is not a plural) is customary to write with a capital letter when you contact ... But this is so, the rules of the Russian language and etiquette ...
            Well, if on the topic of nuclear energy - I would generally prohibit the development of nuclear energy (both peaceful and military) to everyone who did not have such an industry before 1980, for example .... Tk countries like Iraq from the time of Saddam, Iran, Pakistan, India , DPRK, Israel, etc. are not the most appropriate owners of nuclear weapons and nuclear materials in principle ... Let's just say - ideally two polar worlds with leaders possessing nuclear weapons, but our pole collapsed in 1991 and we have what we have ....
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 26 September 2018 12: 45
              +3
              Quote: parma
              I would generally prohibit the development of nuclear energy

              And who, excuse me, will listen to you?
              Testing nuclear weapons of Israel, rumoredheld back in the 79th year. The reactor in Dimona has been operating since the 64th.
            2. ccsr
              ccsr 26 September 2018 12: 54
              +2
              Quote: parma
              0
              You (if this is not a plural) is customary to write with a capital letter when you contact ... But this is so, the rules of the Russian language and etiquette ...

              Do not puff out your cheeks, be simpler, you are not among the girls of the Smolny Institute.
              Quote: parma
              Well, if on the topic of nuclear energy - I would generally

              Do not wag - you were informed about the Israeli bombing of an independent state, and you drew your opinion on nuclear energy to something.
              This is written in your training manual how to chat topic?
        2. Per se.
          Per se. 26 September 2018 12: 48
          +2
          Quote: parma
          Israel has officially been at war with Syria for many years ...
          Here you are absolutely right, in fact, since 1948, nevertheless, clearly highlighted historical clashes, such as the "Six Day War" or "Yom Kippur War", are one thing, it is another matter, in fact, unilateral air raids and shelling from Israel now, despite the fact that not Syria occupied the Golan Heights from Israel. As for "terrorists in enemy territory," who considers who is a terrorist, it is important for us that Hezbollah is not considered a terrorist organization in Russia, as in a number of other countries of the world.
        3. NordUral
          NordUral 27 September 2018 09: 54
          0
          At war, this is an excuse for Israel. Before the resumption of raids by Israel about this war, everyone has long forgotten, except for the Zionists.
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 26 September 2018 21: 34
        +1
        Quote: Per se.
        If Syria is our ally,

        It is not a military ally, like Belarus, and our troops are there by invitation. This is a completely different status, and does not mean a military alliance.
  4. Olgovich
    Olgovich 26 September 2018 06: 56
    +17
    Start was made in 20:40.

    В 21.40. With a scrupulous analysis of the details, such "bloopers" are unacceptable.
    However, instead of landing the IL-20, according to the photo in Fig. 1, flew south and, flying east of the airfield at a distance of 30 km south, for some reason turned west and went to sea getting closer to the Israeli group. Then he turned north and continued to draw closer to the group.

    This has already been explained a million times: it is from the SEA that ALL planes of the Khmemim base are landing — in order to avoid defeat from MANPADS, this is an approved route.

    Israelis acted in the area of ​​this route, which is unacceptable, in fact, the Syrians fired on this route, which is also unacceptable until they are convinced of safety for Russian aircraft.
    1. Abaddon
      Abaddon 26 September 2018 09: 36
      +8
      And why then the runway of the Khmeimim airbase is located parallel to the coast? it turns out, if you go in and land from the sea, then you will fly up to the runway perpendicularly ???? well, even if from the sea, you will have to make a U-turn, t purely hypothetically there will still be a risk of hitting the MANPADS and not small. if you have on this subject more detailed info explain please
      1. KERMET
        KERMET 26 September 2018 10: 33
        0
        Looked at the location of GDP .... really along the coast
        1. Abaddon
          Abaddon 26 September 2018 10: 48
          +3
          Here is identity and it. I am finally not a specialist in aviation, but it’s strange. There are more questions than answers every day. And there is no longer any faith from the word at all. There are shoals in the version of Israel, and in the version of our very already discredited and more than once. and the boys feel sorry for the guy for a snuff of tobacco perished. recourse and the truth of the whole is evident not to know us, only to think for ourselves.
          1. ultra
            ultra 26 September 2018 11: 19
            -5
            Quote: Abadon
            , but somehow strange. There are more questions every day than answers. And no one has faith

            With "every" day of those two that you registered on the site? laughing
            1. Abaddon
              Abaddon 26 September 2018 12: 28
              +6
              Well, what prevented me from before just reading the information on the site ???? before that I could not just comment. I will say even more, some authors such as Andrei from Chelyabinsk, A. Privalov, with great pleasure I read their works for more than a month already. There are a lot of adequate and technically competent comments. And now I just got the opportunity to talk with them, sometimes to express my opinion. So, call me for two days on registered site does not mean anything hi and the fact that you have more stars on the epaulettes and a higher rating, that means it’s all for you. And as if a small request just for the future, you didn’t eat with me from one boiler, therefore, turning to a stranger will not make it difficult for you at least a little out of decency to do this. Regards hi
        2. yehat
          yehat 28 September 2018 14: 12
          0
          landing corridor may not be straight
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 26 September 2018 10: 52
        -2
        Quote: Abadon
        And why then the runway of the Khmeimim airbase is located parallel to the coast? it turns out, if you go in and land from the sea, then you will fly to the runway perpendicularly ????

        GDP baseperpendicularand by the coast, even google map it shows
        Quote: Abadon
        well, even if from the sea, you’ll have to make a U-turn,

        No additional U-turn (in case of a call from the sea) is needed anymore, all U-turns already made over the sea and for direct landing, IMHO.
        Quote: Abadon
        tsh purely hypothetically all the same there will be a risk of defeat of MANPADS

        Will not: the risk of defeat from MANPADS is only at low altitudes, i.e. on decline aircraft, and a decrease occurs only over the sea
        Quote: Abadon
        if you have more detailed info on this subject please explain

        I have nothing extra, but all of the above is just personal assessment and vision of what happened, nothing more .... hi
        1. KERMET
          KERMET 26 September 2018 11: 26
          +2
          Uh ... I’m probably not looking there, aren’t ours based at Basil Al-Assad International Airport?
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 26 September 2018 14: 19
              +1
              Quote: Olgovich
              where GDP is perpendicular

              You have mixed up the GDP and the access road to the base, apparently. GDP is light gray against a dark gray background, yellow is a highway.
        2. Abaddon
          Abaddon 26 September 2018 12: 41
          +1
          I’m wildly sorry, but now I specifically looked at Yandex maps. As if the runway also runs parallel to the coast on them hi Hmeimim airbase. Maybe I’m not looking there? But here in the comments, dear Mr. KERMET even inserted a photo what
      3. faiver
        faiver 26 September 2018 13: 40
        +1
        to be honest, I don’t see a big problem with the plane’s do-it-up before landing, arriving at B-737 and B-777 in Domodedovo, I noticed that the plane did a steep do-it-up to the strip when the trees are already clearly visible from the porthole in the forest zone, about the damage here but it’s obvious that it’s easier to take control of a small section between the sea and the runway ... hi
      4. ccsr
        ccsr 26 September 2018 22: 00
        +2
        Quote: Abadon
        And why then the runway of the Khmeimim airbase is located parallel to the coast?

        The wind rose determines the choice of runway position.
  5. user1212
    user1212 26 September 2018 07: 01
    +12
    The special operation "to smear the Jews at any cost" continues. Once again, I’ll ask some simple questions. Since I am not a "radar developer" the questions are purely profane. If the IDF shoot at terrorists and hit unarmed civil activists, then they are always guilty of provocateurs, as, in fact, in any army. With what fear in this situation is the shooter to blame, especially since it was the Israeli air force who came to bomb a foreign country? What guarantees did Bibi give in exchange for refusing to supply C300 to Syria? Did he promise the safety of the Russian military during Israeli Air Force operations? Israel has already been warned more than once to stop bombing next to our military and remembered how to use the "hot line", but the deaf did not hear because of emergency situations.
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 26 September 2018 09: 01
      0
      accept only the supreme commander, given that it will change the entire political map of the Middle East.

      - WE GOT, WE WILL CHANGE BBV

      Does this exp forget the Frenchman? Can you kick a younger friend already - no Frenchman? till? he simultaneously hit and where?

      -Who is holding a bump? - Do not want to respect the owner of the taiga in the desert?

      - our mid is rather weak for ultimatums

      -NOBODY WILL NEVER SAY ABOUT DATABASE DATA ON ATTACK AND OTHER ATTACKS - the reason is there; how much should we expect from Jews and NATO (French) === this is not to the MO, but to ...?
      you can still let the fog ... in 5 -10 pp, clarity in what happened will not bring
  6. zulusuluz
    zulusuluz 26 September 2018 07: 01
    +1
    Such a powerful weapon in the hands of untrained calculations will pose an even greater danger to our aircraft
    Will the system of state recognition "friend or foe" be removed for security reasons?
  7. jonht
    jonht 26 September 2018 07: 05
    +4
    There are boxes, there is a big box, there are statistics ....
    I have read the article and still did not understand how incomplete facts, how he himself writes "there is no information about this and that", were such conclusions made?
    Apparently we are trying to make "statistics" such articles ...
    1. To be or not to be
      To be or not to be 26 September 2018 07: 58
      +2
      Quote: jonht
      There are boxes, there is a big box, there are statistics ....
      I have read the article and still did not understand how incomplete facts, how he himself writes "there is no information about this and that", were such conclusions made?
      Apparently we are trying to make "statistics" such articles ...

      And there are UN documents
      "Article 1
      Aggression is the use of armed force by a state against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of another state, or in any other way incompatible with the Charter of the United Nations, as established in this definition ...
      Article 2
      The first use of armed force by the state in violation of the Charter is prima facie evidence of an act of aggression, although the Security Council may, in accordance with the Charter, conclude that the determination that an act of aggression was committed will not be justified in the light of other relevant circumstances, including the fact that the relevant acts or their consequences are not of a sufficiently serious nature.

      Article 3
      Any of the following actions, regardless of the declaration of war, subject to and in accordance with the provisions of Article 2, will qualify as an act of aggression:

      a) the invasion or attack of the armed forces of a state on the territory of another state or any military occupation, no matter how temporary it may be, resulting from such an invasion or attack, or any annexation using force of the territory of another state or part of it;

      b) the bombing by the armed forces of a state of the territory of another state or the use of any weapon by a state against the territory of another state;

      c) blockade of ports or coasts of a state by the armed forces of another state;

      d) an attack by the armed forces of a state on the land, sea or air forces, or sea and air fleets of another state;

      e) the use of the armed forces of one state located in the territory of another state by agreement with the host state, in violation of the conditions provided for in the agreement, or any continuation of their stay in such territory upon termination of the agreement;

      f) the action of a state allowing its territory, which it has placed at the disposal of another state, is used by that other state to commit an act of aggression against a third state;

      g) the sending by or on behalf of the state of armed gangs, groups, irregular forces or mercenaries who carry out acts of the use of armed force against another state, which are of such a serious nature that they are tantamount to the acts listed above, or his significant participation in them. ""

      Definition of aggression

      Approved by General Assembly resolution 3314 (XXIX) of December 14, 1974

      http://www.un.org/ru/documents/decl_conv/conventions/aggression.shtml
      1. jonht
        jonht 26 September 2018 08: 57
        +5
        So I don't argue with that, my comment was related to this article, to that part of it where they "do" the analysis without having data for analysis ....
        And for me it is obvious that these articles do not appear out of boredom and idleness, but for some specific purpose. The presence of such publications is in itself an element of statistics, for example opinions ...
        And I, honestly, didn’t understand your post on the UN document to my comment?
      2. antivirus
        antivirus 26 September 2018 09: 03
        0
        are you talking about the possibility of "such" actions against Israel?
        as they are --- so are we for our ward
      3. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 26 September 2018 12: 05
        0
        And why these notes and extracts?
        Quote: To be or not to be
        b) the bombing by the armed forces of a state of the territory of another state or the use of any weapon by a state against the territory of another state;

        Israel attacked Syria
        Quote: To be or not to be
        or any military occupation

        Turkey attacked Syria.
        Quote: To be or not to be
        the action of a state allowing its territory, which it placed at the disposal of another state, to be used by that other state to commit an act of aggression against a third state;

        Syria attacked Israel.
        Quote: To be or not to be
        Arming by or on behalf of the state of armed gangs, groups, irregular forces or mercenaries

        The US attacked Syria. Iran attacked Syria. Lebanon attacked Syria. Russia attacked Syria.
  8. The comment was deleted.
  9. Ezekiel 25-17
    Ezekiel 25-17 26 September 2018 08: 21
    0
    The author is obviously a relative of Judah from Iskariot if he is Russian or an enemy if he is of a different nationality.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 26 September 2018 11: 31
      +1
      Quote: Ezekiel 25-17
      Judah from Iscariot

      Judah from (city) Cariot.

      This interpretation is less popular outside the Cyrillic segment.
  10. The comment was deleted.
  11. arhPavel
    arhPavel 26 September 2018 08: 44
    +7
    This article is then to link to it on foreign resources and further inflate the conclusions.
    1. yehat
      yehat 28 September 2018 14: 28
      0
      I am surprised by the quality of the stuffing organized in the article - it is not bad.
  12. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 26 September 2018 09: 03
    +4
    Andrei Gorbachevsky, radar development engineer
    This is not the first article by this "developer" on this topic. And again, with an attempt to pull Israel aside, and place the blame for the tragedy entirely on the Syrians, with partial fault of Russia. This citizen clearly and openly supports Israel.
    1. KERMET
      KERMET 26 September 2018 09: 27
      +6
      That is, asking uncomfortable questions to his MO, he immediately supports Israel? And for me, a careerist, a layman at his headquarters is a worse evil than a hostile foreign state, it’s not known who will do even more harm
      1. 2329 Carpenter
        2329 Carpenter 26 September 2018 11: 48
        +1
        Yeah. If you criticize the misunderstandings that arose after the MO briefings, you support Israel. If you decide to approach the issue from all sides, and not just from the one where the Jews were initially to blame, and no more, you are an enemy of the Russian people.
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 26 September 2018 22: 08
        +2
        Quote: KERMET
        And for me, a careerist, a layman at his headquarters is the worst evil,

        In fact, these were the Syrian air defense forces, and given the fact that Israel attacked their territory more than two hundred times, the percentage of the erroneous decision was not so large as it might seem to you. No need to blame everything on our military, especially when masters of provocation act against them.
    2. parma
      parma 26 September 2018 09: 40
      +1
      Quote: rotmistr60
      Andrei Gorbachevsky, radar development engineer
      This is not the first article by this "developer" on this topic. And again, with an attempt to pull Israel aside, and place the blame for the tragedy entirely on the Syrians, with partial fault of Russia. This citizen clearly and openly supports Israel.

      No, just an uncomfortable question, why are they trying to cover up the ass of the Syrians (who, by the way, sit silently and don't express their version ... it's just "Israel is to blame, it just exists") ... Why did Il end up in the shelling zone? Why, despite the presence of Il-a in the firing zone, was the fire conducted? Why did the air defense work only 20 minutes after the bombs fell? After all, where are the dispatcher and crew negotiating? What can be so secret there (well, except for the order to go not to the landing, but to look after the Jews), in the end, you can "squeak" secrets? And the plans for the supply of S-300 only confirm the inconsistency between ours and the Syrians, and the curvature of the "allies" ... TK S-300 from our air defense system, the identification systems are ours, our officers (because the identification system is secret), which means now the curved handles won't be able to launch a rocket at us ...
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 26 September 2018 11: 03
        +3
        Quote: parma
        Why, despite Il-a being in the area of ​​fire, was the fire fired?

        This, in my opinion, is one of major subject of investigation and proceedings
        Quote: parma
        Syrians (who by the way sit silently, and do not express their version.

        The composition of the battery, fired, as far as is known, is arrested.
        Quote: parma
        plans for the supply of S-300 only confirm our disagreement with the Syrians,

        Shoigu said this quite bluntly:
        "NOW - identification of all Russian aircraft by Syrian air defense will guaranteed.
        ... "Now".....
        But why not ....? request
  13. Larum
    Larum 26 September 2018 09: 32
    0
    Since the Jews are still to blame, somewhere did you see the name and data of the Syrians who shot down the plane?
    How many were there, how were they fired, how many missiles were fired, in what rank?
    Or is it not for ordinary people?
  14. tveritianin
    tveritianin 26 September 2018 10: 17
    +20
    I have never met more bullshit in my life. rather no, met! When Ukrainians made excuses for the downed Tu-154.
    So, dear community: I graduated from the MVIZRU S-200, for 9 years I was successively the head of the launch preparation department, the commander of the starting battery and the division commander. I omit the subsequent service and study at the academy. That nonsense that is described in this article can be perceived only by amateurs who have never only not seen the S-200, but who have no idea what it is.
    Only two facts are obvious in the article: the fact that the semi-active GOS is induced at the radiation source, while the jammer for it is the most optimal signal, because when approaching the director, the signal is amplified due to a decrease in the distance to it. And the second: a flickering hindrance can really disrupt guidance on the jammer, because it really shakes the GOS guidance loop in the corners. But I didn’t hear something about the use of flickering interference from different planes. To do this, we need such a (!) Synchronization of the emitting signal from different jammers that they must be controlled by a single system. Another thing is flickering interference from one director with the use of noise that leads away in speed, range or angle. But this is not the point now.
    The person who wrote the article does not even represent the organizational structure of the division. The division is commanded by a commander located in the division’s control room, which is the cockpit in which the launch officer and guidance operators are located. He does not give any commands to the commander of the mythical battery to fire at the nearest target. He is behind the specified combatants and sees with his own eyes the whole situation on the indicator: (all-round view, range, speed and angles (location and azimuth).
    There is no pulse mode in this complex. There is radiation of a pure monochromatic continuous signal when determining the range to the target of the PCM signal (that is, phase-code-manipulated, which contains information about the range and speed to a very specific target. Moreover, this information is identical in the K-2 cabin, where the operators are fixed on the guidance screens, and in the missile homing missile on the target, regardless of where it is (on the launcher or in flight to the target). A missile in the air can intercept another target only in case of firing at the jammer when there is no information about the range to the target and its speed, but this (and this is correctly indicated in the article) should be a more powerful source of radiation.In all other cases, the missile is aimed at the target that is accompanied by the target illumination radar.
    And when shooting at an area where several targets are located, their planes are also possible, it is determined by the shooting rules that the shooting is carried out with a selection of the target in range, i.e. shooting only in the FKM signal, which carries the entirety of information about a specific target. And no more powerful signal in flight is able to reorient the guidance system of the GOS, if it is not an obstacle specially generated for taking away the tracking systems of the GOS in angles, speed or range (I already wrote this). I repeat, the most optimal firing mode for the S-200 is the firing mode for the jammer, as for a signal that amplifies when the rocket approaches the target.
    Eight of my training grounds in Sary-Paris with firing at various targets, including at jammers. on barrage targets and firing at two targets at the same target, it is confirmed that this complex, although old, is a terrible weapon in the hands of a careless enemy.
    For my part, I undertake to assert that in this case the main rule of modern combat was absent - organization of interaction, and the second - obviously, the shooting was carried out without determining the distance to the target (shooting was carried out in the near zone), where the missile’s flight time to the target was most likely no more one minute (the rocket has a speed of 1200 m / s and the flight time to a range of about 60 km is also approximately 60 s, taking into account the launch time, when the rocket only accelerates).
    In any military school, especially in academies around the world in the organization of military operations, the organization of interaction between honey is fundamental:
    - neighboring rear-range missiles firing in the same lesion zone;
    - their aircraft, for the distribution or concentration of fire on targets:
    - heterogeneous forces participating in repulsing an air strike by an enemy;
    - And even more so, between the armed forces of various countries.
    For this, at any command post of a regiment, brigade, air defense zone, there are so-called directors who have information about their forces and transmit information to their own about the actions of the interacting. Then mistakes in the conduct of hostilities either do not arise, or they are minimized. In this case, I can not blame the Syrian calculations, because I don’t have information about their training and the operating mode of the firing range (where he was relative to everyone who was in the area of ​​fire and destruction, what mode of operation the Russian Orthodox Church was chosen and whether he had any information about being in the affected area of ​​the IL-20).
    From my point of view, there was no commonplace interaction between the Russian airborne forces and the air defense of Syria (specifically this firing squadron).
    And the last, for those who think that the S-200 rocket is flying in a straight line and another plane can hide behind one plane in the line of sight of the target. The rocket leaves into the sky at a constant launch angle of 48 degrees, while regardless of the target's flight altitude, it leaves in the shortest possible time to an altitude of 8-10 km (without losing target tracking), and sometimes 20 km (depending on the altitude target) and from there it starts either descending if the target's height is less, or the silt continues to climb if the target is higher. Judging by the picture from the indicator, the range, the height of the S-400 was exactly the first option, the missile entered the target from above, that is, it seemed to "peck" at it, while the targets were spaced apart in range and even if they were at the same azimuth, then the missile was all equally accompanies the goal that it captured from the start.
    The lack of complete information does not allow argumentative analysis of this launch, so I will limit myself to what I described.
    Many specialists now write about the obsolete S-200, about some other shortcomings of the S-200 in front of the S-300. Yes, I managed the combat crews at the training ground and in everyday life from the CP regiment (brigade), and I can assure you that everything is in the hands of those who conduct and organize military operations.
    Perhaps a tragic mistake, but it was not without slovenliness in the organization of interaction, of which I am almost a hundred sure !!! And the responsibility lies with the command of the Russian Aerospace Forces in Syria, including.
    To this, Part I have, retired colonel.
    1. Wedmak
      Wedmak 26 September 2018 10: 43
      +4
      Nevertheless, the Israeli provocation took place and in fact they are the beginning of a series of events that led to the disaster of IL-20.
      1. Detnix
        Detnix 26 September 2018 11: 44
        0
        We need to learn to defend our interests, like Israel. And in most cases a little blood and not looking at the face!
    2. Letnab
      Letnab 26 September 2018 10: 45
      +1
      Quote: Perhaps a tragic mistake, but it was not without slovenliness in the organization of interaction, of which I am almost a hundred sure !!! And the responsibility lies with the command of the Russian Aerospace Forces in Syria, including.
      [b] [/ b] In my opinion, it was enough for the Il-20 to get to the area of ​​the airfield at least within a radius of 5-10 km, which is quite enough for safe descent and landing, especially in almost combat conditions. If he had fallen somewhere at that distance, then Israel would have nothing to say.
    3. Abaddon
      Abaddon 26 September 2018 11: 00
      +3
      Hmm recourse Your comment can be safely retrained in the article. I could have put 5 fat pluses. It's good that there are technically competent specialists.
    4. jack
      jack 26 September 2018 11: 28
      +1
      Quote: tveritianin
      I have never met more bullshit in my life. rather no, met! When Ukrainians made excuses for the downed Tu-154.
      So, dear community: I graduated from the MVIZRU S-200, for 9 years I was successively the head of the launch preparation department, the commander of the starting battery and the division commander. I omit the subsequent service and study at the academy. That nonsense that is described in this article can be perceived only by amateurs who have never only not seen the S-200, but who have no idea what it is.
      Only two facts are obvious in the article: the fact that the semi-active GOS is induced at the radiation source, while the jammer for it is the most optimal signal, because when approaching the director, the signal is amplified due to a decrease in the distance to it. And the second: a flickering hindrance can really disrupt guidance on the jammer, because it really shakes the GOS guidance loop in the corners. But I didn’t hear something about the use of flickering interference from different planes. To do this, we need such a (!) Synchronization of the emitting signal from different jammers that they must be controlled by a single system. Another thing is flickering interference from one director with the use of noise that leads away in speed, range or angle. But this is not the point now.
      The person who wrote the article does not even represent the organizational structure of the division. The division is commanded by a commander located in the division’s control room, which is the cockpit in which the launch officer and guidance operators are located. He does not give any commands to the commander of the mythical battery to fire at the nearest target. He is behind the specified combatants and sees with his own eyes the whole situation on the indicator: (all-round view, range, speed and angles (location and azimuth).
      There is no pulse mode in this complex. There is radiation of a pure monochromatic continuous signal when determining the range to the target of the PCM signal (that is, phase-code-manipulated, which contains information about the range and speed to a very specific target. Moreover, this information is identical in the K-2 cabin, where the operators are fixed on the guidance screens, and in the missile homing missile on the target, regardless of where it is (on the launcher or in flight to the target). A missile in the air can intercept another target only in case of firing at the jammer when there is no information about the range to the target and its speed, but this (and this is correctly indicated in the article) should be a more powerful source of radiation.In all other cases, the missile is aimed at the target that is accompanied by the target illumination radar.
      And when shooting at an area where several targets are located, their planes are also possible, it is determined by the shooting rules that the shooting is carried out with a selection of the target in range, i.e. shooting only in the FKM signal, which carries the entirety of information about a specific target. And no more powerful signal in flight is able to reorient the guidance system of the GOS, if it is not an obstacle specially generated for taking away the tracking systems of the GOS in angles, speed or range (I already wrote this). I repeat, the most optimal firing mode for the S-200 is the firing mode for the jammer, as for a signal that amplifies when the rocket approaches the target.
      Eight of my training grounds in Sary-Paris with firing at various targets, including at jammers. on barrage targets and firing at two targets at the same target, it is confirmed that this complex, although old, is a terrible weapon in the hands of a careless enemy.
      For my part, I undertake to assert that in this case the main rule of modern combat was absent - organization of interaction, and the second - obviously, the shooting was carried out without determining the distance to the target (shooting was carried out in the near zone), where the missile’s flight time to the target was most likely no more one minute (the rocket has a speed of 1200 m / s and the flight time to a range of about 60 km is also approximately 60 s, taking into account the launch time, when the rocket only accelerates).
      In any military school, especially in academies around the world in the organization of military operations, the organization of interaction between honey is fundamental:
      - neighboring rear-range missiles firing in the same lesion zone;
      - their aircraft, for the distribution or concentration of fire on targets:
      - heterogeneous forces participating in repulsing an air strike by an enemy;
      - And even more so, between the armed forces of various countries.
      For this, at any command post of a regiment, brigade, air defense zone, there are so-called directors who have information about their forces and transmit information to their own about the actions of the interacting. Then mistakes in the conduct of hostilities either do not arise, or they are minimized. In this case, I can not blame the Syrian calculations, because I don’t have information about their training and the operating mode of the firing range (where he was relative to everyone who was in the area of ​​fire and destruction, what mode of operation the Russian Orthodox Church was chosen and whether he had any information about being in the affected area of ​​the IL-20).
      From my point of view, there was no commonplace interaction between the Russian airborne forces and the air defense of Syria (specifically this firing squadron).
      And the last, for those who think that the S-200 rocket is flying in a straight line and another plane can hide behind one plane in the line of sight of the target. The rocket leaves into the sky at a constant launch angle of 48 degrees, while regardless of the target's flight altitude, it leaves in the shortest possible time to an altitude of 8-10 km (without losing target tracking), and sometimes 20 km (depending on the altitude target) and from there it starts either descending if the target's height is less, or the silt continues to climb if the target is higher. Judging by the picture from the indicator, the range, the height of the S-400 was exactly the first option, the missile entered the target from above, that is, it seemed to "peck" at it, while the targets were spaced apart in range and even if they were at the same azimuth, then the missile was all equally accompanies the goal that it captured from the start.
      The lack of complete information does not allow argumentative analysis of this launch, so I will limit myself to what I described.
      Many specialists now write about the obsolete S-200, about some other shortcomings of the S-200 in front of the S-300. Yes, I managed the combat crews at the training ground and in everyday life from the CP regiment (brigade), and I can assure you that everything is in the hands of those who conduct and organize military operations.
      Perhaps a tragic mistake, but it was not without slovenliness in the organization of interaction, of which I am almost a hundred sure !!! And the responsibility lies with the command of the Russian Aerospace Forces in Syria, including.
      To this, Part I have, retired colonel.

      Still, it is incomprehensible: you, as an expert, support the version that the F-16 was hiding behind the IL-20 and thus put him under attack?
      1. Detnix
        Detnix 26 September 2018 11: 47
        +2
        "To hide" is a normal tactical maneuver of one side, but the other side behaved sloppily, as the author writes, for which it paid, now it covers up shame with propaganda.
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 26 September 2018 12: 19
        +4
        Quote: Jack
        Still, it is incomprehensible: you, as an expert, support the version that the F-16 was hiding behind the IL-20 and thus put him under attack?

        This is a no brainer, but not for those who want to smear the Israelis from their deserved contempt. The punishment will take place later, but the Israelis apparently did not foresee this, like our Georgian "knight in the tiger's skin" chewing on a tie.
      3. MrFox
        MrFox 28 September 2018 13: 03
        0
        It is unlikely that this is an expert. If there is no pulse mode, then there is no range measurement. In principle, it is logical why a pulse and a continuous signal alternate in a GOS. The operator did not study the equipment entrusted to him well, and the developer doesn’t write much in the electronic equipment - the main thing is that the buttons are pressed correctly
    5. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 26 September 2018 11: 40
      +1
      If I correctly understood your comment, then in terms of technical details the author of the article is incompetent, but at the same time the general conclusions - Mr. Konoshenkov otmazyvaet MO - you think are true.
      1. tveritianin
        tveritianin 26 September 2018 14: 47
        +2
        It is difficult to answer unequivocally, but my opinion is that we otmazyvatsya before Glvkoverh about their carelessness. Orders and medals for victory have long been received, and the one who organized the actions of the Russian Aerospace Forces has long been sitting in the back of the Minister of Defense with an asterisk on his chest. And how many people and planes have we lost, for various reasons, because of our carelessness, eh?
      2. KVIRTU
        KVIRTU 1 October 2018 20: 31
        0
        I have relatively little experience, with 10 polygons with practical shooting, but these pictures, from which the author repels, are cartoons, i.e. restored picture. SAM S-200 can be observed up to the first 20 seconds of flight, not even her, the remnants of launch boosters. Further, by any means of ZRV, RTV not to see her.
    6. ccsr
      ccsr 26 September 2018 12: 08
      +3
      Quote: tveritianin
      That nonsense that is described in this article can be perceived only by amateurs who have never only not seen the S-200, but who have no idea what it is.

      I completely agree with the author, although I myself am not an expert on S-200.
      Quote: tveritianin
      In this case, I can not blame the Syrian calculations, because I don’t have information about their training and the operating mode of the firing range (where he was relative to everyone who was in the area of ​​fire and destruction, what mode of operation the Russian Orthodox Church was chosen and whether he had any information about being in the affected area of ​​the IL-20).

      I think that the Syrians did not have information that the Il-20 was in the zone of defeat of their air defense - most likely a secrecy regime was respected here, because not all of them can be trusted, because Israeli agents have been working there for a long time, since the time of Assad’s reign.

      Quote: tveritianin
      Perhaps a tragic mistake, but it was not without slovenliness in the organization of interaction, of which I am almost a hundred sure !!! And the responsibility lies with the command of the Russian Aerospace Forces in Syria, including.

      I think that you underestimate the insidiousness of Israeli and American intelligence, and therefore blame everything on our slovenliness, although this element is always present, but in this case it is not the main one. Pay attention to why not the entire group of Israeli aircraft appeared next to our IL-20, but only one. If this had not been put in advance in the flight mission, it is unlikely that the Israeli pilot would have allowed himself this initiative. But if they all immediately appeared next to the IL-20 and launched several missiles at them, the final would have been completely different - I hope this is obvious to you, and even more so to the Israelis. So everything was calculated, and unfortunately, their plan worked, and our plane was shot down. But they didn’t expect such a reaction - now in Syria there will be S-300s, and this is like a sickle in one place.
      1. parma
        parma 26 September 2018 12: 32
        -1
        Quote: ccsr
        I think that the Syrians did not have information that the Il-20 was in the zone of defeat of their air defense - most likely a secrecy regime was respected here, because not all of them can be trusted, because Israeli agents have been working there for a long time, since the time of Assad’s reign.

        Seriously?? if there were modern radars at the headquarters of the Israeli Air Force, they would have known the location before the agent called back from the Syrian KP ...
        Well and further nonsense in the same vein ...
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 26 September 2018 12: 59
          +4
          Quote: parma
          Seriously?? if there were modern radars at the headquarters of the Israeli Air Force, they would have known the location before the agent called back from the Syrian KP ...
          Well and further nonsense in the same vein ...

          Radars track the aircraft in real time, and even then not at all altitudes, and cannot know the entire flight mission. But agents in the highest echelons of power can inform in advance about upcoming events if they have to coordinate or inform them of the flight route. Teach materiel, you are our demagogue, uninformed ...
        2. ccsr
          ccsr 26 September 2018 13: 09
          +3
          Quote: parma
          in the presence of modern radars at the headquarters of the Air Force

          They don’t put radars at the headquarters, they are even taken out of the territory of the units - this is for you for educational program.
        3. ccsr
          ccsr 27 September 2018 10: 21
          +2
          Quote: parma
          Well and further nonsense in the same vein ...

          Read carefully what other, more knowledgeable people think:
          Not without the participation of the Pentagon. New details of Israeli Air Force tweaks and the role of the United States in the preparation of aggression

          https://topwar.ru/147228-ne-bez-uchastija-pentagona-novye-detali-podlyh-uhischrenij-vvs-izrailja-i-rol-ssha-v-podgotovke-agressii.html
      2. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 26 September 2018 13: 28
        -1
        Quote: ccsr
        they didn’t expect such a reaction - now there will be S-300 in Syria, and that’s like a sickle to them in one place.

        Here, of course, it may be interesting. One out of three.

        1. Announce the transfer of the S-300, and then forget about it. Good, good topic.
        2. Send S-300, but do not transfer Assad. That is the same as with the S-400 already standing there. The spherical shape of the Earth, that’s all.
        3. Send S-300 and transfer to Assad. Israel (both Lieberman and Bibi) has already said that it will cover this shop. Usually they can be trusted in such matters. Since Assad does not have S-300 calculations, and women do not give birth to them in a week, the S-300 will be carried along with the RF military unit. Unless a well-known restaurant company will be able to provide personnel not listed in the state of Moscow Region.

        We will observe (c).
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 26 September 2018 21: 39
          +1
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Israel (both Lieberman and Bibi) has already said that it will cover this shop. Usually they can be trusted in such matters.

          As well as in the Great Israel that they built from Euphrates to the Nile, you probably have not heard about their plans.
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Since Assad does not have S-300 calculations, and women do not give birth to them in a week, the S-300 will be carried along with the RF military unit.

          They drift off if they find out that our operators will be sitting on the S-300.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 27 September 2018 07: 55
            -2
            Quote: ccsr
            Great Israel from the Euphrates to the Nile - you probably have not heard about their plans.

            No, I have not heard. Moreover, I am sure that you are lying.
            Quote: ccsr
            Drift off if they find out

            Check Jews for a kid - not a kid? Well, that's a normal topic. If they don’t drift, we have a lot of extra operators, it’s common, not the first time.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 27 September 2018 10: 11
              +2
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              No, I have not heard. Moreover, I am sure that you are lying.

              I had no doubt that illiterate people did not hear about this:
              Speaking about the territory of Israel, Shmulevich emphasizes the need to occupy the "natural borders along the Nile and Euphrates established by the Torah" (and logical in terms of strategy), which is called "Great Israel".

              http://ruskline.ru/analitika/2011/10/11/velikij_izrail_kak_religioznofinansovyj_proekt_dlya_vsego_chelovechestva
              So I’m not lying, but you just don’t know much about the issue.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              If they don’t drift, we have a lot of extra operators, it’s common, not the first time.

              They drift off, don’t droop, they’ve checked them for lice more than once, and the result is usually the same - they wash off as soon as they smell fried, as it was, for example, in Georgia in 2008.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 27 September 2018 13: 07
                -1
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Israel (and Lieberman and Bibi) has already said

                Quote: ccsr
                Speaking about the territory of Israel, Shmulevich highlights

                Shmulevich is the real surname of Bibi, Shmulevich-Netanyahu, such as Bronstein-Trotsky? Or is it still Dugin’s sidekick from Murmansk, and Netanyahu is a completely different person?
                Quote: ccsr
                as it was, for example, in Georgia in 2008

                Lieberman and Netanyahu fought in Georgia? What a good fellow, everywhere they had time!
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 27 September 2018 18: 46
                  +2
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Shmulevich is the real surname of Bibi, Shmulevich-Netanyahu, such as Bronstein-Trotsky?

                  This is one of the theorists of Zionism, and you are not in the subject here.
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Lieberman and Netanyahu fought in Georgia?

                  No, there were a large number of Israeli instructors who quickly washed off as soon as the fried smelled.
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 27 September 2018 20: 42
                    -1
                    Quote: ccsr
                    one of the theorists of Zionism

                    Nikita Demin, born 68 - One of the theorists of Zionism? Oh well. Lieberman, they say, has his profile impaled with domes together.
                    Quote: ccsr
                    there were a large number of Israeli instructors

                    Well, at least they defeated the Jews.
                    1. ccsr
                      ccsr 28 September 2018 10: 20
                      +1
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Nikita Demin, born 68 - One of the theorists of Zionism? Oh well.

                      It was about Shmulevich. What are you smoking there?
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Lieberman, they say, has his profile impaled with domes together.

                      Well, it's not for nothing that there is a joke in Russia - "you either take off the cross, or put on your panties." However, you probably won't get into its essence ...
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 28 September 2018 10: 49
                        -1
                        Quote: ccsr
                        It was about Shmulevich

                        Who is Shmulevich, your theorist of Zionism? Year and place of birth, name by passport?
      3. tveritianin
        tveritianin 26 September 2018 15: 06
        +7
        I want to note that since the days of Vietnam and other local conflicts, there has always been a distracting group in the actions of aviation striking targets (this is also taught at any academy). Three F-16s were barraging over the sea, distracting attention, and one (strike) aircraft carried out a planned bombing. In fact, the story is very muddy and it is completely incomprehensible why at one time, in one place, were our IL-20 and Israeli aircraft, who were shot by the Syrians, for what specific purposes? unlike in the previous firing, they don’t tell us how many targets there were, how many and which complexes fired, how many missiles they fired, nu, etc.
        When there is a lot of "fog" in the reports, it is very difficult to find what you are looking for.
        The Israelites acted as any competent link commander would do: they divided the group into shock, distracting, and for certain interference was present at the same time. Plus, they knew for sure that our scout was flying there (IL-20). Their task was not to preserve the integrity of the Russian IL-20. he was tasked with destroying specific enemy forces. They dealt with this, and the opportunity appeared to protect their own aircraft and the lives of pilots, and they took advantage of the confusion in the air for a quiet departure home without loss. At the place of command of the Israeli Air Force, I would give them five plus points. In war, the task is to defeat the enemy, to save one’s own and it doesn’t matter if strangers are affected, albeit inadvertently.
        I repeat: they completed their task, neither we nor the Syrians. The Syrians, because they could not prevent the bombing and did not bring down anyone at all, and we, because at the same time, also lost their VERY VALUABLE APPARATUS with the CREW and EXPERIENCED SPECIALISTS, the preparation of which has been carried out for years and battles.
        War is war. That's why I wrote about interaction. WITHOUT IT ANYWHERE.
        Sorry if I was too talkative. Tired of the primitive and the writings of various "experts" without education.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 26 September 2018 22: 17
          +2
          Quote: tveritianin
          They dealt with this, and the opportunity appeared to protect their own aircraft and the lives of pilots, and they took advantage of the confusion in the air for a quiet departure home without loss.

          Here you are deliberately disingenuous - the Israelis were OBLIGED to warn us in advance so that our Il-20 would calmly leave their place of attack. Well, and your "revelations" that their plane was covered by our Il-20 to launch the bombing and at the same time there was a distraction group, suggests that you understand the essence of what happened, but deliberately spread disinformation in order to smear the Israelis.
          1. tveritianin
            tveritianin 27 September 2018 10: 11
            0
            Sorry, I have nothing to do with Israel. This is the first. The second one. I do not excuse anyone if you carefully read what I wrote. I appreciated the actions of the Israeli Air Force from the position of Israel, no more. And the third, again, if you are careful, you described the situation that for the GOS missiles there cannot be a principle of interception if the ROC accompanies another target. Well, this is impossible !!! Therefore, I do not excuse anyone, but I say that what happened is a complete Russian mess! When the aerospace forces are commanded with a ground formation, then there’s probably no reason to wait for something else ...
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 27 September 2018 10: 41
              +1
              Quote: tveritianin
              Therefore, I do not excuse anyone, but I say that what happened is a complete Russian mess!

              But more literate people believe that your opinion is just an element of a special operation in the media to excuse Israel:
              In the Russian media, a special operation of the Israeli special services began, aimed at mitigating the consequences of the loss of the Il-20 aircraft by the Russian HQs in Syria. At the same time, it seems, no one is killed, but in a certain scenario, there will still be casualties among the Russian military.

              https://topwar.ru/147359-ostorozhno-v-rossii-prohodit-izrailskaja-specoperacija.html
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 27 September 2018 13: 09
                -2
                Quote: ccsr
                But more literate people think

                Damantsev and Kuzovkov?
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 27 September 2018 18: 48
                  +3
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Damantsev and Kuzovkov?

                  At least, unlike you, they do not hide under an unknown nickname.
                  What specifically does not satisfy you in their article?
              2. tveritianin
                tveritianin 27 September 2018 13: 44
                +2
                You. obviously extremely inattentive and superficial. It doesn’t matter, it can be with everyone. I wrote. that I do not have the fullness of the information where, who was during the shooting by the Syrians. Were the Israelis here or already chewing matzo in Haifa. Once again, I explain to you that I outlined the technical side of the S-200 air defense system. If my point of view doesn’t suit you, your right, but you don’t need to stick labels, especially since I’m probably much older than you and more competent in the organization of air defense facilities and the operation of anti-aircraft missile systems (including S-125, S- 300 and C-75). So let's put an end to it. I remain in my opinion that this is an illiterate organization of military operations in Syria by the command of the Russian air forces. By the way, today I read that this is why the former military pilot Alksnis writes about it, Gorkov - the former head of the ZRV of the Russian Air Defense Forces and other SPECIALISTS respected by me. Everyone says that this can be from mismanagement of troops. So I'm not alone. Good luck to you.
                1. yehat
                  yehat 28 September 2018 14: 39
                  0
                  They say that the problems of the army’s leadership often stem from the fact that basic education is often specialized rather than combined arms, and this applies to the VKS - people in high positions there may not understand the work of air defense services on the ground.
                  1. ccsr
                    ccsr 28 September 2018 21: 07
                    0
                    Quote: yehat
                    and this applies to the videoconferencing system - there, people in high positions may trite not understand the work of air defense services on earth.

                    Do not tell me - those who are in high positions have passed dozens of exercises and their analysis, demonstration classes, various gatherings, etc. right up to the General Staff Academy, where all this is popularly explained. By the way, the IL-20 does not belong to the airborne forces, but is included in the staff of the OSNAZ brigades, and they are then very closely interacting with air defense. At one time, KVIRTU was preparing specialists for air defense and for parts of RTR. Although, of course, for Syria, punctures cannot be avoided - there is no arguing with that.
        2. 11 black
          11 black 28 September 2018 15: 10
          +1
          Quote: tveritianin
          The Israelites acted as any competent flight commander would do: they divided the group into shock, distracting, and probably interference was also present. Plus, they knew for sure that our scout was flying there (IL-20). Their task was not to preserve the integrity of the Russian IL-20.

          Well, that’s what this is all about - the Israelis actually covered up with our IL-20 and this is a fact. And yet - I correctly understand from your last sentence that, in your opinion, the Jews have the right to kill (well, or to jeopardize) anyone, just to save their own?
          Quote: tveritianin
          They dealt with this, and the opportunity appeared to protect their own aircraft and the lives of pilots, and they took advantage of the confusion in the air for a quiet departure home without loss.

          Sure, but I have a few questions:
          firstly: why the Jews did not warn us in advance about the attack, because there is an agreement obliging them to do this, and we comply with this agreement.
          secondly: why did the Jews, warning us in one minute, lie about the coordinates of the strike?
          thirdly: why did the Jews, for more than 200 sorties, warned us only about 30 of them?
          What is it? - carelessness, criminal negligence or cunning cynical calculation?
          Quote: tveritianin
          In war, the task is to defeat the enemy, to save one’s own and it doesn’t matter if strangers are affected, albeit inadvertently.

          In the American, Nazi or Jewish war, this is what is called dishonesty and meanness.
          Imagine that in the place of our military aircraft there would be a civilian plane - then what, would they also get five plus? After all, "ours" would not have suffered, the task is completed, and the passengers ... it turns out to be not important for you (and the word is not a sparrow).
          Quote: tveritianin
          I repeat: they completed their task, neither we nor the Syrians. The Syrians, because they could not prevent the bombing and did not bring down anyone at all, and we, because at the same time, also lost their VERY VALUABLE APPARATUS with the CREW and EXPERIENCED SPECIALISTS, the preparation of which has been carried out for years and battles.

          Your words would have some meaning if we were at war with them, and this is the purest setup - sly, mean and dishonorable. Military science only works against the enemy, you know, but we are not at war with the Jews, for now.
          And they did not fulfill their task, unless their task was to substitute our IL-20. If there was such a task, then this conversation does not make sense. Now the Jews are with our almost martial law, C-300 has appeared in Syria, our EW stations will work on the Jews - and it is it called "completed the task"?
          1. tveritianin
            tveritianin 1 October 2018 12: 06
            +1
            Hello everyone who is trying to drive me into a corner about my alleged excuse for the Israelis. For the last time I will unsubscribe, and there think what you want.
            So. Once again I do not excuse anyone, but describe the situation. Israelis do not need to justify me, because .. as far as you understand, I am not a Jew and not a citizen of Israel. But!!!
            In life, when analyzing situations, I am used to analyzing everything from different angles, but here it is fighting, or simply - WAR. Whether you like it or not. We had agreements with them - we did! They performed them for the time being - they did it! But at the same time, we looked at how much we could close our eyes and took advantage of, I repeat, the UNEXPECTED in the air and the lack of competent control of the Syrian air defense and Russian aerospace forces. Nobody has the right to kill, substitute, etc. It is generally inappropriate here about a civilian side - this is a combat zone. But about "covered up" for those who can read and compare facts at least a little, I will repeat myself again. The S-200 air defense missile launches at a constant launch angle of 48 degrees and after launch, in a matter of seconds (the missile speed is 1000 - 1200 m / s): azimuth, meta angle (altitude) and range are displayed. Therefore, for a rocket into the stratosphere at an altitude of more than 10000 m (10 km) and from there, it attacks the target using the method of "pursuit with a constant lead angle." And even if the ROC sees targets in the beam that are different in speed and on the reflecting surface, then for the rocket they are spaced apart in range and tracking angles. Correctly people write: it is on the battlefield you can cover with one tank with another, hide behind an obstacle, substitute the side of another. This is a plane, only azimuth works here! And in the air, this is already space and three coordinates work: azimuth, elevation (height) and range. the rocket attacks from above and then the Israeli plane had to see this rocket, dive under our Il and cover itself with it like an umbrella, which in principle is impossible since their speeds are incompatible and it can only be under the plane for a moment. At the same time, he will be on a different line for the ROC. In general, this is all technique. And I point out the shortcomings in the organization of hostilities. In a war, each side fights for itself and thinks about the lives of their fighters. If our command was concerned about our people, it would not have allowed the presence of the Syrian air defense system of the Israelis and our Il-20 at the same time. For this we have all the intelligence and communication channels along the line of interaction. I am not interested in the problems of the Israelis. It is not clear to me why our plane ended up in the zone of destruction of the Syrian air defenses while they were firing at enemy means of attack! This is OUR PROBLEM, not whether the Israelis did the right thing or not. We are responsible for our own and are obliged, you understand, OBLIGED to ensure the safety of our forces and means. This is the main task of the command. First, ensure the safety of the combat use of your forces and means, and then just talk about who acted chivalrously and who did the trick!
            And lastly, we do not have all the completeness of information, no. and without that, we can shake the air for as long as we like with a variety of expert assessments. The truth is buried there where the battle was going. Whether they give us all the information or not does not depend on us. It depends on us that those who have committed an outrageous outrage and did not protect their own in the sky no longer command and bear responsibility for the death of 15 Russian servicemen. Because when you send them into battle, you are responsible for these people, and they hope that they are managed competently and will not allow their death by "coincidence of various random circumstances" !!!
    7. aagor
      26 September 2018 19: 25
      -1
      Thanks for the criticism. I will consider in the future. I am an aeronautical radar developer. Is it possible that a continuous FCM signal is used in the C-200? After all, this greatly complicates the probing of group goals. They will be confused. Author.
      1. MrFox
        MrFox 28 September 2018 13: 17
        0
        It is unlikely that the FCM is related to the radar subsystem. Rather, it is a telecontrol channel
        1. tveritianin
          tveritianin 1 October 2018 12: 09
          0
          Dear, there is no remote control in the S-200 air defense system. But the FCM was thought up for this, that both the missile and the Russian Orthodox Church simultaneously accompanied one target, that is, to identify the target.
    8. Shahno
      Shahno 27 September 2018 13: 54
      0
      I would also add that this can be understood only when meeting with a more or less equal opponent. In another way, this does not work out, how many successful exercises do not conduct.
    9. Angry tramp
      Angry tramp 28 September 2018 10: 38
      0
      It is incomprehensible after the launch of a missile launcher that the operator sees the characteristics of the target being fired and in the event of a failure to capture and capture another object, he will see this, because the EPR F-16 and IL are very different? Well, can he take measures?
    10. yehat
      yehat 28 September 2018 14: 37
      -2
      but what is the usual level of sloppiness in parts similar to yours?
  15. ccsr
    ccsr 26 September 2018 11: 50
    +4
    Andrey Gorbachevsky, radar development engineer, writes:
    This article is written on the basis of much more complete information received from the Ministry of Defense. And is an improved version of the article from 24.09.2018.

    Given the incompetence of the author, who fully proved this in the previous article, one can draw an accurate conclusion - he received the money from the sponsor deservedly, the material is paid, the office writes ...
    1. parma
      parma 26 September 2018 12: 18
      +2
      Quote: ccsr
      Andrey Gorbachevsky, radar development engineer, writes:
      This article is written on the basis of much more complete information received from the Ministry of Defense. And is an improved version of the article from 24.09.2018.

      Given the incompetence of the author, who fully proved this in the previous article, one can draw an accurate conclusion - he received the money from the sponsor deservedly, the material is paid, the office writes ...

      What is your competence? Except as "the Jews are to blame", "I do not agree with the Ministry of Defense, an enemy of the people", "the author is wrong, because I do not agree with the first channel" and so on ... The author has 5 points with his own sub-points, so write your point of view in the comments , justifiably proving that each point is incorrect, well, or write your article ...
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 26 September 2018 13: 10
        -2
        Quote: parma
        The author has 5 points with his own subpoints, so write your point of view in the comments, justifiably proving that each point is incorrect,

        I did it in the previous article, but you, answering me there, apparently "did not notice" them.
        1. parma
          parma 26 September 2018 13: 49
          +2
          Some of your quotes from the past become ....
          Quote: ccsr
          Your enchanting ignorance in the assessments of what is happening is visible to any professional - in the Moscow Region and the General Staff, they are hardly interested in excuses, if only because they cannot be presented with anything, because they are in Moscow, not in Syria. If they suffer, then only those who are in Syria at that moment on duty, and their boss. But if this happens again, then everyone who sits in Moscow will receive a cap, which is why in two weeks they will transfer the required number of S-300s for the Syrians.
          You are clearly not in the subject, although try to show yourself to be a know-it-all.

          Quote: ccsr
          Have you ever sniffed a footcloth yourself, or have you specialized more in theory? Even our excellent military and political honors in a court division once at a show of classes against the audience inflicted an artillery strike that ended in death of people — that is what training personnel even in Soviet times means. So leave alone those who prepared the Syrians - no one has yet canceled the human factor.

          Quote: ccsr
          It is the Israelis, together with the Americans, who developed a special operation to quarrel Putin with Assad. The handwriting is familiar - like in Georgia in 2008, where they also acted together.

          Quote: ccsr
          In fact, the whole military psychology of the Americans was ripped off from the work of Tsarist General Dragomirov, which they processed under their own mentality and used to train military personnel. It’s just that in Soviet times it was somehow not customary to mention this great military theoretician, which is why his name was often hushed up, especially when the issue concerned the education of the Red Army-KA-SA.

          Naked propaganda "Jews are to blame", "Americans are bad", "now we are them" and so on .... Where are the numbers? Where are the facts?
          And about "now we are for them" - I remember the Turks shot down our plane, the pilot died .... They promised that now we are to the Turks ..... Apparently we wanted to say further we will build a nuclear power plant, a gas pipeline, sell the S-400 and give the north of Syria ....
          In general, my dear lover of the theories of Zhidomasson, the Templars and reptilians - further forced to simply ignore your posts, for the lack of even a grain of sand information ... Only zombie slogans, emotions and insults ....
          If you do not respect the interlocutor, then you do not respect yourself ... We are all equal readers here, and consider ourselves smarter and higher than others, simply because you have the correct (only according to your version) point of view, the top of stupidity, or the bottom. ... As the saying goes "I thought it was already the bottom, but then they knocked from below" ....
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 26 September 2018 21: 16
            +1
            Quote: parma
            If you do not respect the interlocutor, then you do not respect yourself ...

            Why should I respect you if you are either an amateur in such things, or are specially working out the Israeli version that they have nothing to do with it.
          2. ccsr
            ccsr 26 September 2018 21: 44
            0
            Quote: parma
            Naked propaganda "Jews are to blame", "Americans are bad", "now we are them" and so on .... Where are the numbers? Where are the facts?

            Well, if you can’t competently analyze the available information, or rather you don’t want to do it on purpose, then I’m not guilty of this. Regarding the facts - a downed South Korean Boeing to help you.
            1. parma
              parma 27 September 2018 13: 05
              -1
              Quote: ccsr
              Quote: parma
              Naked propaganda "Jews are to blame", "Americans are bad", "now we are them" and so on .... Where are the numbers? Where are the facts?

              Well, if you can’t competently analyze the available information, or rather you don’t want to do it on purpose, then I’m not guilty of this. Regarding the facts - a downed South Korean Boeing to help you.

              Once I break my promise to ignore you, but I can’t tell you your incredible stupidity and I can’t try to attach to any fact ....
              Explain how the case of the IL-20 can be explained by the tragedy of 1983, when a passenger Boeing with almost 300 people on board was shot down by a mutual mistake? As you know (and if you don’t know, read, it’s more useful to collect silly posts in the VO) the pilots did not correct (well, or entered erroneous data) the autopilot, and therefore went with a deviation from the route and violated the airspace of the USSR twice .. At the same time, the pilot of the Soviet interceptor He didn’t make any attempts to contact Boeing by radio, he didn’t visually identify himself (kept himself behind all the time), warning fire was conducted by armor-piercing and therefore wasn’t detected ... A record of the conversation can serve as evidence of tragic coincidences o pilots, from which it follows that they were calm, they didn’t know anything about the autopilot error or the Soviet interceptor, until the rocket hit ... By the way, all these conclusions were made by the UN international commission, with which the USSR agreed (even participated), payments were deducted to relatives of the victims ... What is the connection with the IL-20, it’s clear there can probably be such a demagogue as you ... I’ll tell you right away, the USSR was also found not guilty in this case, as there was a U.S. Air Force intelligence officer in the area and the Soviet command took over exactly s Scout ..
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 27 September 2018 18: 43
                0
                Quote: parma
                Explain how the case of the IL-20 can be explained by the tragedy of 1983, when a passenger Boeing with almost 300 people on board was shot down by a mutual mistake?

                Firstly, the Boeing was shot down not by mistake, but for refusing to land at our airport.
                Secondly, not a single corpse was found.
                Thirdly, it was one of the joyful provocations that the US special services practiced, and it is not much different from what happened with the downed IL-20, when they pre-calculate the actions of the opposite side, and then carefully hide their participation.
                However, you, pretending to be so "naive", once again proved that the operation to cover this sabotage includes the information aspect, which you regularly work out.
                Quote: parma
                the pilots did not correct (well, or entered erroneous data) the autopilot,

                This is a lie - there were several systems determining the course of the aircraft, and in addition it was monitored by ground services, which would immediately notice the declination and be sure to inform the crew about it.

                Quote: parma
                The USSR was also found not guilty in this case, as the US Air Force intelligence officer was in the area and the Soviet command took the passenger precisely for the intelligence officer ..

                There, the orbital grouping was also involved, but you probably did not find this on Wikipedia.
                1. Cossack 471
                  Cossack 471 28 September 2018 22: 15
                  +2
                  For several hours did a Boeing in the Far East fly 500 km west of its corridor and have the dispatchers never told him?
  16. NEOZ
    NEOZ 26 September 2018 12: 07
    0
    the purpose of the IL20 setup is not clear ...
    what is the purpose of the Jews? the way to which, the murder of 15 officers of the Air Force of the Russian Federation (materiel IL20)?
    1. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker 26 September 2018 12: 26
      +3
      The situation was commented on by VVP after the first news of the tragedy "... A chain of tragic accidents ..."
      T.N. the setup was expressed in the following:
      1. In the late informing by the Israeli side of the time of the start of the attack by the F-16 unit on the territory of Syria, as well as the area of ​​the strike.
      2. The actions of the Israeli pilot, who struck the target, and in the process of maneuvering to escape from the affected area of ​​the Syrian air defense system, went into the radar shadow of the Il-20, which was in the area of ​​maneuvering the F-16 link at that moment.
    2. Wedmak
      Wedmak 26 September 2018 12: 28
      +5
      Not the fact that the target was IL-20. This target could be any other plane in that area. It was not for nothing that Konashenkov said that the Israeli Air Force operated at the intersection of air routes and near the approach corridor to Khmeimim.
      I will put forward it as a version: they hunted either for the civilian side or for the transport one. If the first is a howl to the moon and an attack by Syria to everything that sailed from the USA to Middle-earth + Jews + help to banduks, if the second, howl again, which Syrians are angry radishes and Iran are fighting in the same place and generally the rest, the rest only get in the way optionally - attacks of the Kyrgyz Republic, bombing, sanctions, or all at once.
      1. faiver
        faiver 26 September 2018 13: 57
        -2
        there is a version that it was an attempt to eliminate the Assad, it was like he was going to fly to us, but whether it was true or not, we won’t find out ... hi
    3. ccsr
      ccsr 26 September 2018 13: 14
      +1
      Quote: NEOZ
      +1
      the purpose of the IL20 setup is not clear ...
      what is the purpose of the Jews?

      I think they were just executors - the order was American and it was based on the desire to sow enmity between Putin and Assad. But both came out, and now the wise Israelis will pay for it, and the Americans, as always, will stay away.
  17. 1536
    1536 26 September 2018 14: 01
    -1
    It is necessary to leave the acting military specialists from the main headquarters of the Aerospace Forces to develop the operation of transferring our air defense systems to Syria, as well as the conditions and the possibility of their use there. Once (in the early 1980s), they coped with a similar task to the "top five". They will cope now, and without ... home-grown advice and analyzes.
    But what, perhaps, we can agree with is the subtext of the article. In it, in my opinion, you can catch the concern about the effectiveness of our air defense equipment. If the enemy becomes the Air Force of the Israel Defense Forces, this is one. But Israeli pilots are unlikely to be stopped by one or two SAMs. It is a fact. If the transfer of air defense systems to Syria is the beginning of equipping the air defense system of this country at a new qualitative level, this is different, because the time has come to restore Syria, for which the sky over the territory of Syria should become safe.
    And one should not, when analyzing purely military methods and means of ensuring security, forget about political means and methods of ensuring it.
    1. faiver
      faiver 26 September 2018 17: 53
      +1
      But Israeli pilots are unlikely to stop one or two SAM
      - it’s like two regiments are being transferred, this is the total of the 4 division, that is, the total salvo of the 192 rocket
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 26 September 2018 21: 48
      +2
      Quote: 1536
      If the transfer of air defense systems to Syria is the beginning of equipping the air defense system of this country at a new qualitative level, it is different, because the time has come to restore Syria, for which the sky over the territory of Syria should become safe.

      So this will be done - it is very profitable for us to sell S-300 complexes to Syria since S-400s are coming into service with us, and so as not to dispose of the old ones, they will be sent there after maintenance, and possibly transport aircraft, for speed of transfer.
  18. ultra
    ultra 26 September 2018 16: 41
    +3
    Mr. Gorbachevsky, who is this? And why does the second, to put it mildly, controversial article by this author be published on the site?
  19. jack
    jack 26 September 2018 17: 00
    +2
    Quote: Detnix
    "To hide" is a normal tactical maneuver of one side, but the other side behaved sloppily, as the author writes, for which it paid, now it covers up shame with propaganda.

    If there was a Syrian military aircraft in place of IL-20, I would probably agree with you. But Russia is a neutral side.
    1. ultra
      ultra 26 September 2018 17: 09
      +1
      Quote: Jack
      I would probably agree with you.

      you can agree or not, but you can’t argue against the facts!
  20. jack
    jack 26 September 2018 17: 03
    +1
    @tveritianin
    I would just like to clarify: from your analysis it follows that in any situation, Israeli fighters could not be above Israel at the time of the defeat of the Russian aircraft?
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 26 September 2018 17: 21
      -1
      Quote: Jack
      from your analysis it follows that in any situation, Israeli fighters could not be above Israel at the time of the defeat of the Russian aircraft?

      This follows from the statements and pictures of Konashenkov. According to his calculations, the F-16 20 minutes after dropping the bombs "patrolled" in the air defense zone.

      And this, of course, happens. But rarely.
    2. tveritianin
      tveritianin 27 September 2018 10: 16
      0
      I did not evaluate whether the Israelis were on their territory or over the sea. I just described what could and could not have happened if they were in the S-200 affected area. No more. And I affirm that there could be no target interception if trained combat crew sat at the screens of the guidance operators. not donkeys. Even a child will be able to distinguish a mark from a fighter or from a turboprop aircraft, if at least once he is shown and explained to him. And my concern (I noted several times) is the lack of proper organization of hostilities and the lack of proper interaction between everyone.
    3. yehat
      yehat 28 September 2018 14: 46
      -1
      I do not know the real distances. but judging by the scenario of events, the Israelites had about 20-30 seconds to fly from the landing corridor to the territory of Israel, which is impossible without teleportation. Israeli f-16 fighters equipped with full-time teleportators?
  21. Alsur
    Alsur 26 September 2018 17: 32
    0
    Quote: 210ox
    At the end of the article is a diagnosis of Syrian air defense. And in fact, why are the officers who are in the most threatened direction, not our officers, as in Vietnam, for example?

    You think so in vain that in Vietnam the calculations were Soviet, only in a short initial period. Mostly just an instructor. The Vietnamese fought themselves.
  22. jack
    jack 26 September 2018 18: 48
    +1
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    [This follows from the statements and pictures of Konashenkov. According to his calculations, the F-16 20 minutes after dropping the bombs "patrolled" in the air defense zone.

    And this, of course, happens. But rarely.

    So I wanted the expert to comment on Konashenkov’s calculations. The fact is that in the analyzes and comments of both experts there is a certain amount of skepticism, if not criticism, regarding the report of Konashenkov.
    Yes, everything happens. But still, there should be some kind of logical explanation for why the Israeli fighters, after dropping the bombs, continued to be in the air defense zone?
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 26 September 2018 19: 14
      -3
      Quote: Jack
      But still, there should be some kind of logical explanation for why the Israeli fighters, after dropping the bombs, continued to be in the air defense zone?

      This question is best addressed to the Israeli side, do not you find? Perhaps the request to publish the data provided by the Russian Defense Ministry would be quite appropriate.
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 26 September 2018 22: 28
      +1
      Quote: Jack
      The fact is that in the analyzes and comments of both experts there is a certain amount of skepticism, if not criticism, regarding the report of Konashenkov.

      Konashenkov is obliged to make a military-political statement in which, by definition, not everything can be indicated. But what the experts say to each other, taking into account information from our intelligence structures, may not be included in Konoshenkov’s report so as not to shine our sources of information. For example, if we were able to open the encrypted negotiations of Israeli aviation at that moment, then it is unlikely that they will ever be used in reports, as was the case with the open negotiations of the Ukrainian colonel regarding the downed Malaysian Boeing.
    3. yehat
      yehat 28 September 2018 14: 47
      -1
      maybe they were looking for some confirmation of hits?
  23. Strategia
    Strategia 26 September 2018 20: 51
    0
    In short, the Zionists are completely overgrown, and it’s time to beat them in the furry snouts!
  24. dolfi1
    dolfi1 26 September 2018 21: 21
    0
    Quote: Jack
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    [This follows from the statements and pictures of Konashenkov. According to his calculations, the F-16 20 minutes after dropping the bombs "patrolled" in the air defense zone.

    And this, of course, happens. But rarely.

    So I wanted the expert to comment on Konashenkov’s calculations. The fact is that in the analyzes and comments of both experts there is a certain amount of skepticism, if not criticism, regarding the report of Konashenkov.
    Yes, everything happens. But still, there should be some kind of logical explanation for why the Israeli fighters, after dropping the bombs, continued to be in the air defense zone?


    Perhaps we will not learn anything from ours yet. Infa passed that Netanyahu told everyone to shut up, and that Russia hinted that it was not interested in the emergence of "Israeli cartoons" on this topic.
  25. Alexey Laktionov
    Alexey Laktionov 26 September 2018 21: 25
    0
    This is an Israeli special operation whose purpose is to convince the Russian people of that. that the Jews are right ...
    https://topwar.ru/147359-ostorozhno-v-rossii-prohodit-izrailskaja-specoperacija.html
  26. ccsr
    ccsr 26 September 2018 22: 37
    +3
    Author:
    Andrei Gorbachevsky, radar development engineer
    . This is where the most important conclusion follows: IL-20 WASN’T GOING TO SIT AT THE AIRDROP, AND CONTINUED TO OBSERVE THE ISRAELI AIRCRAFT.

    A typical lie of the author of the article, which proves its custom nature.
    Firstly, the IL-20 is in service with the Ground Forces, and has a completely different specialization, and therefore other intelligence agencies are required to observe Israeli aircraft.
    Secondly, it is easier to observe Israeli aircraft by air defense forces, by means of the RTR of the ground forces, or even by reconnaissance aircraft of the Russian air forces, but not the IL-20.
    This is how a great lie is born to ward off the Israelites.
  27. Carib
    Carib 27 September 2018 10: 14
    0
    A 4% reduction in glide path in wartime can be reversed. How did our people sit in Kabul for example.
  28. Loki_2
    Loki_2 27 September 2018 10: 18
    0
    I correctly understand that the author does not wonder what the Jews did in the Syrian sky? They were the root cause of the tragedy. So you need to remove the Jews from the equation, close the sky of Syria personally. The rest is technical details.
    1. Semen1972
      Semen1972 27 September 2018 11: 38
      0
      Quote: Loki_2
      I correctly understand that the author does not wonder what the Jews did in the Syrian sky?

      Maybe it’s exactly that that’s all - they fought terrorism ??? Well, if for two years of daily bombing we couldn’t .. all the same are afraid of ISIS ... we are afraid of thousands of miles, and then these are neighbors !!! They also fight terrorism. Or do you have other information ??
      1. Loki_2
        Loki_2 18 October 2018 09: 13
        0
        Quote: Semen1972
        Maybe it’s exactly that that’s all - they fought terrorism ???

        Where? In Latakia? I correctly understand that you, like your friends, Jews, consider Iranian formations to be terrorists?
        And if the IDF is recognized by Iran as a terrorist organization, will you also take the shelling of Israel by Iran as exactly?

        Quote: Semen1972
        Well, if for two years of daily bombing we couldn’t .. all the same are afraid of ISIS ... we are afraid of thousands of miles, and then these are neighbors !!! They also fight terrorism. Or do you have other information ??

        Yes, I have other information. In my opinion, under the cover of the fight against terrorism, Jews are solving their purely geopolitical tasks, bringing together in the Stone Age all who the Jews do not like.
        Saman, do you think it is normal to invade the airspace of another country and launch air attacks against ground targets?
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 27 September 2018 13: 11
      0
      Quote: Loki_2
      What did the Jews do in the Syrian sky?

      Who cares? Jews, unlike the VKS, lost nothing this time.
      Quote: Loki_2
      close the sky of Syria personally.

      Look forward to.
      1. Loki_2
        Loki_2 18 October 2018 09: 18
        0
        Quote: Cherry Nine

        Who cares? Jews, unlike the VKS, lost nothing this time.

        I understood you correctly: is the presence or absence of losses legitimizing the bombing of another state?

        Quote: Cherry Nine

        Look forward to.

        Already :)
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 18 October 2018 13: 21
          0
          Decided to rummage in junk?
          Quote: Loki_2
          I understood you correctly: is the presence or absence of losses legitimizing the bombing of another state?

          No, wrong. The bombing of another state does not need to be legitimized at all, you can afford it - bomb on your health. You can bomb your own, too, it was more than once.
          Quote: Loki_2
          Already :)

          Everything is very interesting there. Where the S-300 was brought, now there are no Iranians, but before. So they bargained their interests with Bibi at the expense of the Persians. How stable this design is - time will tell.
          Quote: Loki_2
          Do you think Iranian formations are terrorists?

          And not only Iranian.
          Quote: Loki_2
          then you also take exactly the shelling of Israel by Iran?

          Of course. The possibility of rocket fire is the reality of Israel every day.
          Quote: Loki_2
          In my opinion, under the cover of the fight against terrorism, Jews are solving their purely geopolitical tasks, bringing together in the Stone Age all who the Jews do not like.

          Firstly, terrorism does not give a damn to all participants in the process, it’s not worth being bullshit.
          Secondly, for Israel it is not just "geopolitics", but the security of its borders. They solve their problems quite well.
          1. Loki_2
            Loki_2 19 October 2018 09: 19
            0
            Quote: Cherry Nine

            Decided to rummage in junk?

            He was on a business trip, could not respond promptly. But better late than never?

            Quote: Cherry Nine

            No, wrong. The bombing of another state does not need to be legitimized at all, you can afford it - bomb on your health. You can bomb your own, too, it was more than once.

            International law in all its glory! I take off my hat to your idea of ​​the limit of permissible use of force.
            I hope your beliefs apply to any country, including Israel?

            Quote: Cherry Nine

            And not only Iranian.

            What about the IDF?

            Quote: Cherry Nine

            Of course. The possibility of rocket fire is the reality of Israel every day.

            What goes around comes around...

            Quote: Cherry Nine

            Firstly, terrorism does not give a damn to all participants in the process, it’s not worth being bullshit.
            Secondly, for Israel it is not just "geopolitics", but the security of its borders. They solve their problems quite well.

            Do you understand what the "grateful" neighbors will do to you, as soon as you lose the support of the connecting states?
            I think that you need to continue fostering their dislike of yourself by constantly shelling and invading the territory of neighbors, motivating it with security :) Comrades Jews are on the right track ... Good luck and prosperity!
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 19 October 2018 15: 35
              +1
              Quote: Loki_2
              International law in all its glory!

              Is this news for you?
              Quote: Loki_2
              Do your beliefs apply to any country, including Israel?

              First of all to Israel. There are not many countries of the conventional West whose right to exist is being questioned. These are Israel, South Korea, Taiwan, the Baltics. Israel is the hottest of this company. What happens when in such a situation you hope for "international law" was shown by the example of Ukraine. Or Yugoslavia, Iraq and Libya, if that's closer to you.
              Quote: Loki_2
              What about the IDF?

              People who consider the IDF military, if not terrorists, then occupiers, come across all the time. Some of them manage to cause a lot of trouble until they die.
              Quote: Loki_2
              What goes around comes around...

              So no one is against it. Although, unfortunately, there are people among the Jews who became infected with leftist chatter on Facebook (here it is, harm from the Internet is where!), Who speak of some kind of guilt of the Jewish people towards the Palestinians, who were not cut by the Jordanians in the 70s.
              Quote: Loki_2
              Do you understand what the "grateful" neighbors will do to you, as soon as you lose the support of the connecting states?

              All that they can. So far have been able to a little. Serious US support began only in the 60s, 20 years after the announcement of the State. In the early years, even Comrade Stalin, forgive Gd, was more useful than the Americans. Now Israel is many times stronger in relation to its environment than in the early years, and the environment, in turn, went wild (Jordan, Egypt, CA), or committed suicide (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq). Iran alone has remained from the true violent.
              Quote: Loki_2
              I think that you need to continue to foster their dislike of yourself by constantly shelling and invading neighbors, motivating this with security

              Savages understand only power, respect only power, talking to them humanly is useless. They perceive the very fact of dialogue as a weakness.
              By the way, this applies to any savages, not only in BV.
              Quote: Loki_2
              Faithful path you go, comrades Jews ... Good luck and prosperity!

              Try hard.
  29. jack
    jack 27 September 2018 16: 57
    +1
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    This question is best addressed to the Israeli side, do not you find? Perhaps the request to publish the data provided by the Russian Defense Ministry would be quite appropriate.

    Why should the Israeli side explain the logical inconsistencies in the Russian version? The Israelis have their own simple version: flew in - bombed - flew away.
    Publish data? The Russian side did not even bother to pass on the results of their investigation to the Israelis, although the Russians received a similar report from Israel.
  30. jack
    jack 27 September 2018 17: 05
    +1
    Quote: ccsr
    Quote: Jack
    The fact is that in the analyzes and comments of both experts there is a certain amount of skepticism, if not criticism, regarding the report of Konashenkov.

    Konashenkov is obliged to make a military-political statement in which, by definition, not everything can be indicated. But what the experts say to each other, taking into account information from our intelligence structures, may not be included in Konoshenkov’s report so as not to shine our sources of information. For example, if we were able to open the encrypted negotiations of Israeli aviation at that moment, then it is unlikely that they will ever be used in reports, as was the case with the open negotiations of the Ukrainian colonel regarding the downed Malaysian Boeing.

    No one wants to share information in the military field. But security cooperation nevertheless presupposes such an exchange. After all, the Israelis warned of their attacks in Syria, although this is classified information and in Israel they know that this information is being merged by the Syrians. The Israeli side presented Russia with a detailed report of the incident, and Russia in response - cartoons.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 27 September 2018 18: 08
      -1
      Quote: Jack
      Why should the Israeli side explain the logical inconsistencies in the Russian version?

      Well, of course. Any Israeli patriot who has listened to Konashenkov's briefing may have a question: "Do the pilots of the Israeli Air Force undergo an examination by a narcologist before departure?" This question can be asked, for example, to your deputy.
      Because it’s useless to talk with employees of the RF Ministry of Defense.
      Quote: Jack
      Publish data? The Russian side did not even bother to pass on the results of their investigation to the Israelis, although the Russians received a similar report from Israel.

      In Repin's painting "The Cossacks" ("The Cossacks are Writing a Letter to the Turkish Sultan"), you can see men without shirts: the Cossacks have noticed since ancient times that the presence of sleeves on card game partners increases the likelihood of statistical anomalies.
      When communicating with the Russian side on any issue, this practice should be borne in mind. Unfortunately, as far as Bibi knows, there is another opinion. Something he, like, bargained quietly in a businesslike way. Well, he knows better.
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 27 September 2018 19: 40
        +1
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Because it’s useless to talk with employees of the RF Ministry of Defense.

        Naturally - they provide reliable information, which is supported by means of objective control. But what the Israelis did, so far no one has seen. That is why you dodge trying to whitewash the Israelis, although their guilt in the death of the IL-20 is obvious to any military specialist.
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 27 September 2018 20: 12
        +1
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Because it’s useless to talk with employees of the RF Ministry of Defense.

        It is useless because they have means of objective control, from which it is clearly seen how the provocation was carried out. But the Israelis have nothing of the kind — at least no one has presented them.
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        you can see men without shirts: since ancient times, Cossacks noticed that the presence of sleeves among partners in a card game increases the likelihood of statistical anomalies.
        When communicating with the Russian side on any issue, this practice should be borne in mind.

        Normal people look at the plot of the picture, and professional thimbles consider it in terms of their actions in that situation.
        Therefore, when reading your texts, you should always keep in mind your digital skills. So Russian citizens need to trust our MO, and not like you.

        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Something he, like, bargained quietly in a businesslike way.

        And why are you embarrassed to report this? In the training manual is not written?
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 27 September 2018 20: 17
      +2
      Quote: Jack
      The Israeli side presented Russia with a detailed report of the incident, and Russia in response - cartoons.

      This is a lie - the Israelis did not present any significant information, otherwise they would have trumpeted it in all the media.
      Russia has presented means of objective control not only from the Syrian radar, but also all that had our air defense and intelligence means.
      If you cannot understand this information, judging by the term "cartoons", then this is your problem - the experts immediately understood everything.
    3. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 27 September 2018 20: 47
      -1
      Quote: Jack
      Israeli side provides Russia with detailed incident report

      Quote: Cherry Nine
      When communicating with the Russian side on any issue, this practice should be borne in mind.

      Above, the user sсsr clearly demonstrates why "gentlemen's agreements" with the department of Mr. Konashenkov are impossible.
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 28 September 2018 10: 21
        +1
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Above, the user sсsr clearly demonstrates why "gentlemen's agreements" with the department of Mr. Konashenkov are impossible.

        What other "gentlemen's agreements" can be with the Israelis, where did you see them there? You apparently overeat henbane ...
  31. jack
    jack 27 September 2018 22: 17
    +1
    Quote: ccsr
    This is a lie - the Israelis did not present any significant information, otherwise they would have trumpeted it in all the media ..

    Quite the contrary: it is precisely because the report contains essential information that it was not published so as not to permanently worsen Israel’s relations with Russia.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 28 September 2018 10: 23
      0
      Quote: Jack
      Quite the contrary: it is precisely because the report contains essential information that it was not published so as not to permanently worsen Israel’s relations with Russia.

      This is a lie - the Israelis would long ago have organized a drain of information if it had fully proved their innocence.
      1. 11 black
        11 black 28 September 2018 15: 32
        +1
        Quote: ccsr
        Quite the contrary: it is precisely because the report contains essential information that it was not published so as not to permanently worsen Israel’s relations with Russia.

        What kind of nonsense? That is, you showed this report to our military, deny your guilt, but are still afraid to spoil relations with Russia? Where is the logic here?
        If this report was seen by our specialists, then with whom else are you afraid to "ruin your relationship"?
        To prove to everyone your innocence with facts is an even more reliable way, but you are silent ...
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 28 September 2018 16: 51
          0
          Quote: 11 black
          Still afraid to ruin relations with Russia? Where is the logic here?

          The logic is that the Russian Defense Ministry can continue to lie at best to the public, at worst to the public and the commander-in-chief.
          No need to mix the interests of Russia, Glavkoverkh and Moscow Region. These are three different interests.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 28 September 2018 21: 12
            +1
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            No need to mix the interests of Russia, Glavkoverkh and Moscow Region. These are three different interests.

            But you have one interest - in any way, up to juggling the facts, to justify the Israelis. And you hope that no one understood this ...
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 29 September 2018 02: 32
              0
              Quote: ccsr
              in any way, up to juggling the facts, to justify the Israelis

              I am sure that Israel will do without excuses, especially in my performance.
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 29 September 2018 09: 55
                0
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                I am sure that Israel will do without excuses, especially in my performance.

                Of course - they don’t take arrogance, and small singers like you, they are not very interested.
        2. ccsr
          ccsr 28 September 2018 21: 00
          +1
          Quote: 11 black
          What kind of nonsense? That is, you showed our military this report,

          Who do you answer to? If to me, then this is not my text. My was a comment on him.
  32. ccsr
    ccsr 28 September 2018 11: 29
    +2
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Who is Shmulevich, your theorist of Zionism?

    Are you surprised that he comes from the USSR or his views ?.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 28 September 2018 13: 08
      0
      Quote: ccsr
      Are you surprised that he comes from the USSR or his views?

      Nothing surprises me. Among the 14 million Jews, statistically there should be a certain number of lunatics and balabol, expressed without a mat.
      What does the writings of the Karelian self-taught rabbi have to do with the politics of the State of Israel? Which of the decision makers in the past twenty years has declared Israel before the Euphrates, i.e. occupation of Jordan, can be considered as an acceptable version of events? Have you ever been to these countries?
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 28 September 2018 13: 45
        0
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Which of the decision makers in the past twenty years has claimed Israel before the Euphrates,

        They had stated this before, and no one, as far as I know, refused it.
        Study carefully:
        "White Paper of the Anti-Zionist Committee of the Soviet Public":
        G.L. BONDAREVSKY
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 28 September 2018 14: 47
          0
          What makes you think that I am interested in the opinion of Comrade G.L. Bondarevsky on any issue?
          I asked you about decision makers. Prime Minister, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Ministry of Defense of Israel. Over the past 20, I said, peaceful years.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 28 September 2018 20: 58
            +1
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            What makes you think that I am interested in the opinion of Comrade G.L. Bondarevsky on any issue?

            You obviously did not live in the USSR, and you do not know what the "White Book" is, and what the anti-Zionist committee was doing. So it's not up to you to judge the plans of the Israelis.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 29 September 2018 02: 52
              0
              Quote: ccsr
              You obviously did not live in the USSR

              Seriously?
              Quote: ccsr
              what the anti-Zionist committee did.

              Confirmed by the fact of its existence two things:
              1. Among the Jews there are also bastards.
              2. You can pour mud on your people not only with a pure heart, as is customary among the goyim, but also for the Andropov special rations.

              Now Mr. Soloviev and Kedmi are playing in this field, it seems.

              Perhaps I indulge in stereotypes, but the second fact could not but arouse sympathy among Israeli officials as a manifestation of a truly Talmudic mindset. Too lazy to check how many Soviet fighters against Zionism repatriated, but it would be strange, if not all.
              Quote: ccsr
              So do not you judge the plans of the Israelis

              Yeah, without the gebist libel of thirty years ago, there’s no way to figure it out.
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 29 September 2018 09: 53
                0
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Confirmed by the fact of its existence two things:

                There is only one thing - the Israelis staged a provocation, as a result of which our servicemen were killed, and they will be held accountable for this. At least, according to media reports, deliveries of S-300 have already begun, and this is encouraging - let's see how they now behave in the skies of Syria, and find out how "brave" they are.
  33. jack
    jack 28 September 2018 13: 16
    0
    Quote: ccsr
    Quote: Jack
    Quite the contrary: it is precisely because the report contains essential information that it was not published so as not to permanently worsen Israel’s relations with Russia.

    This is a lie - the Israelis would long ago have organized a drain of information if it had fully proved their innocence.

    They did not publish it because they wanted to settle the conflict. And now there are leaks.
    https://topwar.ru/147616-smi-izrailja-opublikovali-dannye-iz-doklada-komandujuschego-vvs-norkina-my-ne-vinovny.html
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 28 September 2018 13: 51
      +1
      Quote: Jack
      They did not publish it because they wanted to settle the conflict. And now there are leaks.

      It was a lie, not a leak of genuine materials:
      Here it should be noted that in recent days Haaretz often comes out with false information. It was previously stated that Moscow allegedly rejected a proposal from the visit of Netanyahu and Lieberman. Moscow has denied this publication. In the cited material, the author writes that the IL-20 was shot down on September 16. In fact, the blow was struck 17 th.
  34. jack
    jack 28 September 2018 14: 18
    +1
    Quote: ccsr
    Quote: Jack
    They did not publish it because they wanted to settle the conflict. And now there are leaks.

    It was a lie, not a leak of genuine materials:
    Here it should be noted that in recent days Haaretz often comes out with false information. It was previously stated that Moscow allegedly rejected a proposal from the visit of Netanyahu and Lieberman. Moscow has denied this publication. In the cited material, the author writes that the IL-20 was shot down on September 16. In fact, the blow was struck 17 th.

    This is not the case. - Another, already central, newspaper published information from the report on its website.
  35. jack
    jack 28 September 2018 17: 54
    0
    Quote: ccsr
    They said it before

    Well yes, right, 3000 years ago .. laughing
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 28 September 2018 21: 14
      +1
      Quote: Jack
      Well yes, right, 3000 years ago ..

      Much later - read Jabotinsky and Herzl, they lived in the 19th century ...
  36. Cossack 471
    Cossack 471 28 September 2018 22: 07
    +1
    With some passages this specialist openly "smiled". I especially liked the conclusion that since the antenna drive is mechanical at the ROC S-200. then it only fires one target because of this. And if in the SHL (wide beam) mode, the ROC sees 3 targets. can you shoot everything? No This is a single-channel complex for the target and 6-channel for the missile. for example S-75 - single-channel target and 3-channel missile. for the same target, he cannot release missiles from the 1st and 2nd launchers. as they will receive the same target guidance commands. and released into flight at a pace of 5 seconds. it can't be faster - launch ban As for the operating mode of the Russian Orthodox Church, too piled up I was at the S-200 "Angara" air defense system in the Magnitogorsk regiment. this complex had only the mode of operation of the MHI transmitter (monochromatic radiation). the target range was given by the SRTs. usually P-14. and the S-200 Vega already had the FKM (phase-coded-manipulated) mode from the factory and the range accuracy was high. for example 2 fighters at a distance of 400 km if the distance between them is 25 meters. differ as two different goals. Transmitter power 3 kW continuous radiation Pulse mode no
  37. kig
    kig 29 September 2018 02: 04
    0
    And why no one pays attention to this: This article is written based on much more complete information received from the Ministry of Defense.. What is this information, who received it, from whom and how?
  38. aftbreeze
    aftbreeze 1 October 2018 20: 14
    0
    Quote: parma
    lead the development of nuclear energy (both peaceful and military) to everyone who did not have such an industry before 1980, for example .... Let's just say - ideally TWO POLAR world WITH leaders possessing nuclear weapons, but our pole collapsed in 1991 and we have what we have. ...


    If you claim to be a connoisseur of the Russian language - write yourself correctly. Observing cases, declensions, rules for writing adverbs and compound sentences!