Military Review

IL-20. Whose head is sick, whose head is healthy?

279
18.09.2018, General Konashenkov, said that Israel had performed a clever military-psychological operation to force the Syrian air defense to shoot down our aircraft. Even then, despite the lack of detailed information, his statements seemed absurd. Obviously looked at the attempt of our Defense Ministry to shift the responsibility for the death of 15 officers at least someone. Otherwise, the wrath of the supreme commander was unavoidable. Briefing MO from 23.09 only reinforced this impression.


IL-20. Whose head is sick, whose head is healthy?


1. Tactical maneuvering of the parties before the crash

The Konashenkov scheme indicates that the X-NUMX Israeli F-4 fighter entered the launch zone of the planning GBU-16 bombs at 39: 21 at a distance of 39 km from the Syrian coast. At this time, a warning was made to our VKS about the launch of these bombs on targets in the area of ​​Latakia. The GBU-90 planning bomb is intended only for hitting ground targets with predetermined coordinates and does not pose any danger to aircraft.

Our IL-20 at that time was flying over Syrian territory from north to south and in no way could disguise Israeli aircraft. Then one of the F-16 began to approach the Syrian coast, but still did not dare approach more than 70 km. This is easily explained by the fact that at this time F-16 began to use EW, and the power of EW transmitters would not be enough to suppress the Syrian radar radar if the F-16 approached a closer distance.

At this time, IL-20 received a command to go on landing, but for some reason did not execute it immediately, and flew past the airfield Hamim in the direction to the south. Then he made a completely inexplicable maneuver and began to turn towards the sea, and approached the Israeli grouping at 30 km. The plane crashed when it flew north. It follows that the statement about the desire of Israeli aircraft to hide behind IL-20 is in clear contradiction with the scheme of General Konashenkov. From the scheme it follows that, on the contrary, IL-20 wanted to explore the composition of the Israeli group. The scheme is composed in such a way that it is absolutely impossible to understand from it the key point: where at this time was the C-200 air defense missile system, which hit IL-20. Further, we will assume that the C-200 was at a distance of no more than 20-40 km from Hmeimim airfield.

2. Features of the functioning of the air defense missile systems with missiles with semi-active guidance

The C-200 SAM system was developed more than 40 years ago and is equipped with rather primitive, by modern concepts, radar and missile defense systems. Despite the enormous size of the SAM (length 11 m, mass 7 t), it is not equipped with its own interference transmitter, but is directed at the signal reflected from the target. The target is irradiated by a specialized target illumination radar (ROC).

The ROC detects targets not on its own, but according to commands issued from the divisional controls. At KP information is obtained from the surveillance radar, the antenna of which rotates with a period of the order of 10 seconds, that is, information is updated at the command point quite often, and all the aircraft’s maneuvers do not go unnoticed. The Russian Orthodox Church constantly receives information about the azimuth and vertical angles of targets and their range and speed from the surveillance radar. ROC is present in the composition of each battery, which has 6 launchers missiles. The battalion commander indicates to the battery commander which of the targets should be struck, after which the Russian Orthodox Church positions its antenna in the direction of the target to be hit, starts tracking it and prepares for launch.

2.1. Features of the functioning of the ROC

ROC can accompany the target in one of two modes:

- pulsed mode, in which the angles of targets caught in the beam and their distances are measured. The speed in this mode is practically not measured;

- the mode of continuous sinusoidal radiation, in which the angles and speed of the target are measured, and the range is practically not measured. Zur be induced to target only in continuous mode.

Thus, the ROC, having received a target designation from the command post, can refine the target range in a pulsed mode, and then switch to a continuous mode and, measuring the target speed, start the missile attack. However, if the commander of the ROC decides that he does not have enough time to clarify the target range, he can immediately turn on continuous mode, hoping that the approximate data on the target range for aiming at the target is sufficient.

2.2. Features ZUR

Zour receives from the ROC data on the angular direction of the target and its speed. At the same time, it can only be aimed at those targets that are highlighted by the ROC. Despite the fact that the beam of the Russian Orthodox Church is quite narrow (approximately 2 °), several targets can reach this beam, the range to which the SAM can not measure. Therefore, the missile defense system will be aimed at the target, the speed of convergence with which it is assigned to the ROC. If the speed of the target being fired and the speed of any other target caught in the illumination beam turn out to be the same while targeting the SAM, then the SAM will be guided by that one whose signal will be more powerful.

3. Reconstruction of the IL-20 defeat scenario

3.1. Tactical Reconstruction


We do not know either the location of the observation radar of the division, nor the type of the specific radar. However, it is clear that in the air defense missile system with a range of 300 km, surveillance radar will be very powerful. At least, even such small targets as F-16 (effective reflecting surface of the EOP = 2 sq. M) will be detected at distances much larger than 200 km. GBU-39 F-16 bombs are launched from heights of at least 10 km. Even if we assume that the F-16 attacks were going to heights less than 1 km, that is, they were hiding behind a radio horizon, then at the time of the beginning of the ascent, they were guaranteed to be detected by a surveillance radar. Suppress surveillance radar interference F-16 is hardly capable. Hence the conclusion that the division commander had clear information about the fact of the beginning of the attack. The only thing that could be hidden by interference was the size of the group. Therefore, the decision to maneuver the IL-20 towards the sea can only be explained by the illiteracy of the air defense command. I would like to ask General Konashenkov: where were our advisers at that time?

Further, the proposed reconstruction comes into irreconcilable contradiction with the version of the Israeli media. Syrian air defense missile systems could not open indiscriminate firing and launch more 100 missiles at targets emitting interference, since F-16 can switch emissions of interference, from one F-16, then from another. Such heavy missiles, as in C-200, will not be able to cope with the guidance on the flickering noise.

3.2. The author's version of events

The only version that seems plausible to the author is that at the beginning of the shelling the ROC irradiated the F-16 four, he did not receive signals from these targets, since F-16 switched on the jamming transmitters. Under these conditions, the missile defense continues to be induced not on signals reflected from the target, but on signals emitted by the interference transmitters. Accidentally, our IL-20 flew into the ROC beam. Since the IL-20 was twice as close to the radar as the F-16, the signal reflected from it was 20 times more powerful due to the difference in the image intensifier and 16 times more powerful because of the difference in distances. Consequently, the total excess power of the signal reflected from IL-20, compared with the power of the signal reflected from F-16, was 320 times. No large amount of interference emitted from the F-16 could suppress such a high power of the reflected signal. Therefore, the GOS ZUR, having received a powerful signal, began to be induced on it, which led to the defeat of the IL-20.

This situation could have been avoided if the operator of the ROC had at least an average qualification. He could turn on the impulse mode of operation for a short time and realize that a target with a much smaller range hit the beam. A catastrophe could have been averted also if the ROC operator was interested in information coming from a surveillance radar. To prevent it, it would be enough to turn off the illumination of the target or issue a command to self-destruct the rocket.

4. findings

The representative of the Ministry of Defense is trying to disguise the fact that our VKS failed to organize training for Syrian air defense personnel at a sufficient level.

Blaming the command of the Israeli Air Force that they did not forbid their pilots to turn on the jammers and defend themselves against attacks from the air defense missile system - hypocrisy.

The supreme commander-in-chief should demand from the leadership of the MoD a complete review of the entire operation with the provision of data on the IL-20 and F-16 trajectories, the position of the air defense missile system and the number of missiles launched.
Author:
279 comments
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    1. Andrey Yuryevich
      Andrey Yuryevich 24 September 2018 06: 11
      +9
      Quote: Nagan
      Actually, what many wrote here from the first days, and raked down the minuses for it

      exactly. and finally information from the specialist.
      1. esaul
        esaul 24 September 2018 06: 52
        +33
        I do not argue - the special is valid, according to the signature under the text. But I am "tormented by vague doubts" that this opinion is unbiased, and not an order of the Israeli Defense Ministry and the question - what the hell are Israeli planes doing in the skies of Syria? Many experts will probably begin to explain to me that in this way they are worried about their safety. Well, let them worry about their territory! If it were not for the shamelessness of the invasion of someone else's sky, then, probably, there was no such overlap that led to the tragedy.
        1. Mr Credo
          Mr Credo 24 September 2018 07: 38
          +10
          But doesn’t it look like a negotiated game is going on in Syria? On the sidelines, we agreed on the rules of the game. But the Israeli military turned out to be more experienced than the Russian military. What was routine for the Israeli military turned out to be a failed test for the Russians. Yes, there were exercises where everyone passed the tests perfectly. Reported to the president, he reported to the people. Everything is wonderful, our army is the strongest! The Israelis conducted their teachings with the Russians. What blame the Israelites? The fact that they were smarter and more prepared than the Russian military !? And after all, a downed plane confirms this fact! Warned, not warned! So we admit that there is a negotiated game? It turns out so! Was Hitler supposed to warn Stalin about the start of the offensive on June 22? Stop shedding tears about the setups. The soldier is always healthy, the soldier is always ready and he knocks dust out of the carpets like boots! It turned out that our soldiers were completely unprepared for anything. And we begin to blame, then on the Israelis, then on the Syrians, then on the Americans, then on the Ukrainians, then on the world crisis! What do you call a person whose fault is all but him? So here we have the same thing. Here many scolded Serdyukov for the women's battalion in his entourage. And Shoigu? Who is in his advisers? People who graduated from the General Staff Academy and past hot spots or girls who worked on TV? Girls with TV smarter than regular military? Oh well! Then and further accused others, make an innocent face, clap eyelashes and pour tears!
          1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
            Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 24 September 2018 07: 49
            +21
            Quote: Mister Creed
            Was Hitler supposed to warn Stalin about the beginning of the June 22 offensive?

            Judging by the logic of the Ministry of Defense, of course, yes. Israel does not behave according to concepts, Russia allows the bombing of its allies, and the Jews of the Ministry of Defense did not call and notify. The command of AB Khmeimim was waiting for the call, and the Navy generally had a day off - well, you never know who flies overhead, it's dark. And IL-20 in the zone of fire, our command sent
            1. Tatyana
              Tatyana 24 September 2018 08: 45
              +25
              The following circumstance draws attention to the article.
              At this time, IL-20 received a command to land, but for some reason did not complete it right away, but flew past the Khmeimim airfield in a southward direction. Further, he undertook a completely inexplicable maneuver and began to unfold towards the sea, and approached the Israeli group at 30 km. The defeat of the aircraft occurred when it flew north.

              First of all. So that I personally could fully trust in the reliability of this statement of the author, I personally am suspiciously interested in the answer to the question. In the meantime, I have no confidence in the author in this regard. Namely.
              - How did the author become aware of the alleged Il-20 maneuver indicated by him - instead of directly executing the landing order?
              - Does the author personally work at the headquarters of the Russian Aerospace Forces in the SAR? or in the investigative committee of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation?
              “Or was he informed of this from the Israeli Air Force?”
              Or "word of mouth" gave him such a detail?
              From where?
              - And what country is the author of?
              And secondly. I am more in agreement with the author of this comment.
              Quote: esaul
              I am "plagued by vague doubts" that this opinion is unbiased, and not an order of the Israeli Defense Ministry and the question - what the hell are Israeli planes doing in the skies of Syria?
              1. NIKN
                NIKN 24 September 2018 11: 03
                +14
                [quote = Tatyana] - How did the author become aware of the alleged Il-20 maneuver indicated by him - instead of directly executing the landing order? [/ quote]
                Well, ask the author a more professional question. Does the author know the approach scheme to Khmeinin? Did he fly there, manage flights? Does the author have a radio recording in this period? So why argue that [quote = Tatyana] Further, he undertook a completely inexplicable maneuver and began to unfold towards the sea, and approached the Israeli group for 30 km. [/ Quote]
                Far-fetched. And why is this [quote] Andrey Gorbachevsky, radar development engineer [/ quote] What would the far-fetched believe? What for? The imposition of opinions is not supported by anything other than their speculation. Something tells me that this Andrei Gorbachevsky was impersonating himself an aviation expert before, and then he suddenly changed his profession.
                1. Arikkhab
                  Arikkhab 24 September 2018 19: 02
                  +7
                  "How did the author know about this maneuver, which he allegedly indicated?"
                  Yes, sort of from the MORF animation presented at the briefing.
                  1. Random
                    Random 25 September 2018 12: 40
                    +3
                    Quote: ArikKhab
                    Yes, sort of from the MORF animation presented at the briefing.

                    And they (by the term they mean fellow и tongue ) they do not notice it .... see with their eyesight .... weak wassat , or maybe "trolling" orders are being processed lol
                2. Random
                  Random 25 September 2018 12: 38
                  +6
                  Quote: NIKNN
                  Does the author know the approach scheme to Khmeinin?

                  Generally speaking, it is in ... wartime ... it is at least ... a CRIME soldier it's me to yours ... "I will ask the author a question more professionally." lol
                  Why is the "inexplicable" maneuver? .. Yes, because this maneuver is not lucid in all its manifestations, if there was no "criminal order" that "sent" our Il-20 to the sector of shelling by Syrian air defense weapons, which by that time was shilm already more than 20 minutes !!!!
                  Quote: NIKNN
                  Something tells me

                  But to me .. "prompts" .... the further Konashenkov tries to "justify himself", the more he "plunges into the abyss ... lies" soldier and your "pathetic attempts" to belittle the author ... only indicate that your "boat of lies" ... goes to the bottom soldier
                  Alksnis clearly expressed ....-"I watched the briefing of the Russian Defense Ministry and I can say that I have never had such a shame in my memory. I think that the military of Israel, and other countries, both probable opponents and probable allies, had April Fool's Day." soldier
                3. Alexkorzun
                  Alexkorzun 25 September 2018 16: 45
                  0
                  Gorbachevsky (Semenovsky, Lebedinsky) ..... it seems this is a Jewish surname ... but despite this, the author is apparently ABSOLUTELY OBJECTIVE !!!
              2. Random
                Random 25 September 2018 12: 26
                +2
                Quote: Tatiana
                How did the author become aware of the alleged Il-20 maneuver indicated by him - instead of directly executing the landing order?

                You can "count" whatever you want ... that's your right, but ...... If there really was such an "order" or, to put it right ... "command from the RP" ... then this is CRIMINAL " order "or" command ", but the RP himself does not make such a decision, all" leading "instructions come from the CP soldier
                - Far ... see the "cartoon" .... everything is clearly shown .... where and how the IL-20 "maneuvered".
                All your other questions ... this is an attempt, I don't even know what ... what would ... "protect ... our .... grief for leaders of all ranks ... I mean the RF Ministry of Defense." soldier
                And a quote from "Esaul" ...... what else could the former "political officer" come up with? wassat
                1. Cottager452
                  Cottager452 28 September 2018 11: 15
                  +1
                  There are no former politicians; this is a lifelong diagnosis.
              3. Berber
                Berber 25 September 2018 16: 58
                +3
                Totally agree with you. Everything stated by the author is logical, if we accept the condition that the original data is not biased. And the reliability must be confirmed.
            2. Random
              Random 25 September 2018 13: 20
              +1
              Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
              and the Navy generally had a day off

              That's right, that's just with the Navy ... "bobble" wink since General Konashenkov in his speech was forced to admit that pictures of the air situation during the Israeli strike, which he showed at a briefingwere made by no means not from Khmeimim with a "600-kilometer radius" of air defense weapons, but by the forces of our navy ships in the Mediterranean. wink
          2. New Year day
            New Year day 24 September 2018 08: 24
            +7
            Quote: Mister Creed
            But doesn’t it look like a negotiated game is going on in Syria?

            yes it doesn’t seem anymore, it’s already a no brainer. there everyone agrees with everyone
            1. the most important
              the most important 24 September 2018 12: 28
              +3
              Quote: Silvestr
              Silvestr (Sylvester) Today, 08: 24
              +5
              Quote: Mister Creed
              But doesn’t it look like a negotiated game is going on in Syria?

              It doesn’t seem anymore, it’s already a no brainer. there everyone agrees with everyone

              And while all deceive everyone ... east, what do you want. And then Russia came and thinks that there are decent people there. Naive ... The mess in the first place is that Russia was forced to play by the rules of others, and not by the rules of Russia. The same thing is happening in Ukraine. Can a country be considered great if the rules of the game are set for it by the size of a flea on a world map? They don’t look for allies in this way, they just make problems. And everything comes from the political leadership of the country.
            2. Semen1972
              Semen1972 26 September 2018 13: 55
              +2
              Quote: Silvestr
              Quote: Mister Creed
              But doesn’t it look like a negotiated game is going on in Syria?

              yes it doesn’t seem anymore, it’s already a no brainer. there everyone agrees with everyone

              We protect Russia from ISIS there, otherwise they are preparing to attack us !! And the whole world is stopping us in this !!! I watch TV, they say so there .. and the box can’t lie !!!!!
          3. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 24 September 2018 11: 21
            +5
            Quote: Mister Creed
            and dust like from carpets he knocks out of boots!
            In fact, the classics need to know better. Vysotsky knocks out dust out of the wayand not from boots like yours.
            Quote: Mister Creed
            It turned out that our soldiers were completely unprepared for anything.

            And where did you get this? What, behind the range instruments were our operators, not the Arabs? Or do you have another info?
            Quote: Mister Creed
            And Shoigu? Who is in his advisers? People who graduated from the General Staff Academy and past hot spots or girls who worked on TV?

            Oh how! Is the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces and its entire "brilliant" headquarters also a girl? Or do you think that a "cloth soldier" in PR on TV will look better than a fashion model?
            Therefore, you don’t need to carry the guns and bring together military work and representative PR functions of the Main Directorate of International Military Cooperation or the Office of the Press Service and Information of the Russian Ministry of Defense.
            Yes, there is a slap ... But you are clearly not looking for it there.
            1. bayard
              bayard 24 September 2018 15: 57
              +9
              Donetsk.
              And what surprised me in the report of Konashenkov was that there was no mention of the French frigate, and in the first reports it was said about the launch of 4 rockets from this pepelats of frogmen. What kind of rockets were these? Where did they go? Why was this trough in this place at this time? Is it true that the frigate was armed only with anti-ship missiles (8 pcs.) And anti-aircraft (30 pcs.)? And which ones participated in the salvo, if the ships of the Russian Federation were not hit?
              Why was there no mention of the "Tornado" of the British Air Force, which was at about the same time in the area of ​​the incident and went through Turkey to Iraq and landed there?
              And the tanker, who was bartering in the region of Cyprus, whom did he refuel?

              I have the impression that the "agreement" really took place and the most acceptable version of what happened was chosen - so that there seems to be no one to punish ... We don't seem to know the truth, but that's probably better than crying "Why did we sink the French tub for the downed Il-20? It's him ... ".
              So the Boeing, shot down in the Donbass, was "struck by Buk", and I drummed that a lot of witnesses saw a fighter at a height and an attack aircraft that finished off the liner, holes from 30 mm. a cannon in the fuselage, a characteristic trace from the R-60M in the left cheekbone of the cockpit and a furrow from the tail of this missile on the wing of a downed Boeing ...
              All relations will be clarified outside the public field ... and probably so it will be better for everyone ... For now ...
              1. Semen1972
                Semen1972 26 September 2018 13: 58
                -2
                Quote: bayard
                and drummed that a bunch of witnesses saw the fighter at altitude and the attack aircraft, finishing off the airliner

                Hmm .... but the Spanish dispatcher brought all these pilots ..... And Obama came up with this operation !!!! I thought so trolls only that there are no people who really believe in it ..
                1. bayard
                  bayard 26 September 2018 23: 41
                  +1
                  I personally interviewed several witnesses for the downed Boeing. Among them was a USSR air defense veteran who personally observed this action from his garden. Yes, and I myself am in the past an officer of the combat command of the air defense of the Soviet Union. Video recording of the cabin of a downed Boeing, with a trace (very characteristic) from the R-60M, a furrow on the wing from the plumage of this rocket, holes from 30 m.m. the guns were in the public domain and if they were not cleaned, then hitherto should remain in the Internet archives.
                  The Su-27 (the one that remained at the height) was from the Kharkov brigade (established according to the flight plan of that day), the Su-25 attack aircraft that was finishing off the falling Boeing was from the Dnepropetrovsk airfield (the airport, based on it military aircraft - the MiG-29 squadron and a squadron (which almost all of the Donetsk team knocked out) Su-25).

                  And yes, I don’t believe it, I KNOW THIS.
                  1. MANITU
                    MANITU 16 October 2018 22: 12
                    0
                    And yes, I don’t believe it, I KNOW THIS


                    Do not bring nonsense ... Su-25 is not the best interceptor ... To use the r-60 you must be on the same level in visual proximity ... Next, with your brains
                    1. bayard
                      bayard 17 October 2018 10: 12
                      0
                      Donetsk.
                      At the echelon, a Boeing shot down a Su-27 from the Kharkov brigade (with a missile), and a Su-25 finished off a falling plane, circling around it and beating from a cannon.
                      1. MANITU
                        MANITU 17 October 2018 13: 46
                        0
                        On the echelon, a Boeing shot down a Su-27 from the Kharkov brigade (with a missile), and the Su-25 finished off a falling plane, circling around it and beating from a cannon


                        And the tail from the Buk’s rocket, stuck in the binding of the cockpit and the fragment with the serial number from the same rocket were planted from the Su-25 before the crash? You actually study the question first, then carry it down
                      2. bayard
                        bayard 17 October 2018 23: 48
                        0
                        Donetsk.
                        If you really want to, you can fly into space. It's not like getting a shank in binding. There was no shank there. And the cabin was almost whole, while lying on the ground. A hole from the R-60M is in the left cheekbone of the cockpit - on approaching 1-2 meters it shoots a charge of small buckshot forward to weaken the target’s body and facilitate penetration. Therefore, the hole was very characteristic ... And in the Netherlands a completely different cabin was assembled ... But if you agreed / agree that there was a Beech from the Ukrainian warehouse ... so be it. The version that will be voiced will be the result of agreements, and not the result of an honest investigation ... So be it ... It often happens.

                        I don’t advise hysteria, because any agreement can be revised if one of the parties becomes inadequate. The moon scam has not been debunked (for now) by virtue of the agreements ... but the agreements must be observed by both parties. Therefore - do not wake a dare.
                      3. MANITU
                        MANITU 18 October 2018 12: 20
                        0
                        a hole from the R-60M - on approach 1-2 meters it shoots a charge of small buckshot forward to weaken the target’s body and facilitate penetration


                        You don't tell anyone about this, otherwise they will laugh like me ... Have you seen the R-60 rocket live? Or at least in the picture? It is very small .. There is a ROD type warhead and the rocket does not know about any "penetration"))))))))))) There is a truth, but there are attempts to pull the owl onto the globe. Further, I think the conversation is meaningless.
            2. Mr Credo
              Mr Credo 24 September 2018 19: 52
              +6
              I know about dust from the roads. But thanks for what you know. It does not matter who was sitting at the devices, even bears. Is the entire air defense control system fragmented or centralized? It turns out that each calculation is on its own. But this cannot be. So there is a clear cant of air defense control where our specialists command. And if you missed a strike from an airplane link, then what will happen during a mass raid or shelling? Will leadership and response be paralyzed? Sat, not sat. The main result. And he is deplorable. Professionalism is zero. Now we will laugh over diapers and the Ukrainian army? That's just diapers have their bases in almost all countries, and the Ukrainians very effectively eliminated the commanders of the unrecognized republics (well, just like Israel once eliminated the Nazis). Here you have an indicator of professionalism! Girls are certainly beautiful! But with PR campaigns, a harsh military would have looked better. MO is still not a puppet theater. hi
              1. Random
                Random 25 September 2018 12: 54
                +2
                Quote: Mister Creed
                Is the entire air defense control system fragmented or centralized? It turns out that each calculation is on its own. But this cannot be. So there is a clear cant of air defense control where our specialists command. And if you missed a strike from an airplane link, then what will happen during a mass raid or shelling? Will leadership and response be paralyzed? Sat, not sat. The main result. And he is deplorable. Professionalism is zero. Now we will laugh over diapers and the Ukrainian army? That's just diapers have their bases in almost all countries, and the Ukrainians very effectively eliminated the commanders of the unrecognized republics (well, just like Israel once eliminated the Nazis). Here you have an indicator of professionalism!

                And your post too ... good + drinks .. me .. was especially struck by Konashenkov's statement ... "our S-400 recorded everything" belay ... 5 times I listened ... maybe ... it seemed? belay request
                After all, he began to write this on the 19th ... however, he was "stuck with minuses like .... a hedgehog" ... although the question was very legitimate ... where are the data of our RPLK .... and then ... baa ... finally .. "it was necessary" to show and what we see ..... "allies are shooting" with a SERIES (what Konashenkov is "silent about" .. although on his ... "evidence" it is FINE to see. and our IL-20 quietly .. "spanks under ..." shelling azimuth " lol (where does he know that there is a sector, an exchange rate parameter, an angle, well, an azimuth of GOALS, and of course range) winked
            3. Random
              Random 25 September 2018 12: 42
              0
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              bring together military work and representative PR functions of the Main Directorate of International Military Cooperation or the Office of the Press Service and Information of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.

              How beautifully said ... drinks good soldier I wouldn’t be able to winked
          4. Rey_ka
            Rey_ka 25 September 2018 14: 49
            +1
            Well, there it is clear that they (the Israelis) are constantly in the war, and ours only try to get involved in the beginning of the fight, always with new cones more. and start waving a saber that someone did not overlook, too, it seems wrong. And if there was a landing team then which one flew to look at F15?
        2. New Year day
          New Year day 24 September 2018 08: 22
          +7
          Quote: esaul
          But I am "plagued by vague doubts" that this opinion is unbiased

          but also the same doubts about the words of Konashenkov!
          1. Mikhail3
            Mikhail3 24 September 2018 10: 34
            +7
            Why on earth? Konashenkov voiced the position of the Ministry of Defense, absolutely not hiding, this is his duty. What are the doubts? In your own opinion? There is no other doubt, they simply have no place.
            But the author of the article, an unknown com from an unknown mountain, shows tremendous awareness, just writes that our plane undertook such and such maneuvers. Konashenkov knows who gave the data. And to this being? Where did the firewood come from?
            1. New Year day
              New Year day 24 September 2018 10: 36
              +6
              Quote: Mikhail3
              Where is the droushka?

              from the box. Remind me how many times Konashenkov changed his "testimony" about the downed Boeing?
              1. Mikhail3
                Mikhail3 24 September 2018 13: 06
                +4
                What does this have to do with my question? Again. Konashenkov voiced the MO version. The MO has data and the means to obtain it. Where does the author get the data? Do we trade in the guest house? From "friends" we get? Himself from "friends"? Here's what's interesting. I do not touch the story itself, I have no data, only open sources.
                According to them, Israeli planes dangled over the territory of our ally and bombed it. In the process of repelling the attack, our pilots were killed. The question of who is to blame for this is one question. And where the "radar designers" get their information from is completely different.
            2. Random
              Random 25 September 2018 13: 03
              +4
              Quote: Mikhail3
              Why on earth? Konashenkov voiced the position of the Ministry of Defense, not hiding at all

              And how can he "hide" if two parties are involved in this incident and both have all the means of SOC
              .
              Quote: Mikhail3
              What are the doubts?

              In everything .... and now the "clumsy attempts" of the Ministry of Defense are being made to justify themselves for the epic failure and to blame others. soldier
          2. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 24 September 2018 11: 42
            +10
            Quote: Silvestr
            but also the same doubts about the words of Konashenkov!

            I agree. This is a purely official version of the RF Ministry of Defense. This is a view from one side, but a second point of view has appeared, and no one can intelligibly answer a simple question: How did Il end up in the shelling sector? Why, knowing that our scout was in a dangerous area, the Arabs continued to burn missiles on interference? ... What "monkeys" were sitting at the control devices of the air defense system? Who was in charge of this air defense battle? Why did no one lead and report to the ZRDN commander of the general VO? Was it not obvious that the "cow" was climbing into the sector from which the Jews were striking? And why did they not give the command to self-destruct the SAM? or did you not stop the exposure to the VC? - That's what you need to understand! am
            And the fact that the Jewish pilot turned out to be more cunning than the entire Arab "flock of monkeys" at the air defense command post and at the air defense missile system guidance panels is our misfortune ... "Tragic coincidence," as the Supreme Commander said.
            IMHO.
            1. utyutkin
              utyutkin 24 September 2018 12: 34
              +3
              How did Il end up in the firing sector? Why, knowing that our scout was in a dangerous area, the Arabs continued to burn missiles on interference? ... What "monkeys" were sitting at the control devices of the air defense system? Who was in charge of this air defense battle? Why did no one lead and report to the ZRDN commander of the general VO? Was it not obvious that the "cow" was climbing into the sector from which the Jews were striking?

              Under these conditions, missiles continue to be aimed not at the signals reflected from the target, but at the signals emitted by the jamming transmitters. By chance, our IL-20 flew into the beam of the Russian Orthodox Church. Since the IL-20 was twice as close to the radar as the F-16, the signal reflected from it was 20 times more powerful due to the difference in image intensifier and 16 times more powerful because of the difference in distances. Therefore, the total excess of the power of the signal reflected from the IL-20, compared with the power of the signal reflected from the F-16, was 320 times.

              everything is very very interesting and so on points
              how did silt end up in the sector? - he flew there!
              which monkeys were sitting? - the same as always!
              who led the battle? - automatic control system (asurk)!
              and now read carefully - "Under these conditions, the missile defense system continues to aim not at the signals reflected from the target, but at the signals emitted by jamming transmitters" - that is, in a difficult jamming environment, the s-200 radars are essentially BLIND. but there is a way out and the missiles are guided by radiated interference. only there is one small nuance - "the total excess of the signal power reflected from the IL-20, compared to the power of the signal reflected from the F-16, was 320 times" with the power reflected from the Ф16, this is yes, but in comparison with the noise power the picture strictly opposite, the interference power will be 1000 times stronger than the reflected signal. and so what we see - the radars 200 are ok, because they use targeted impulse interference and noise, and when trying to shoot at interference, fighters, due to the difference in their speeds and silt, easily hide behind it and at the right time cut down the interference in order to fuse the rocket worked on silt. that's all the answers to your questions.
              and tell me who is to blame?
              why didn’t they fly away from the silt? their radars saw him perfectly!
            2. Random
              Random 25 September 2018 13: 09
              +1
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              the second point of view, and no one can intelligently answer a simple question:

              Sasha, why ... because the conclusions from the "second point of view" are about the following ... "suggesting":
              1. Incompetence and non-professionalism of the command staff from the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force and the Air Force Commander to the command of our group in Syria.
              2. The lack of radar control of the air situation over Syria and the neighboring region due to the lack of the required number of AWACS and U aircraft in the Russian Aerospace Forces
              3. The lack of fighter cover when performing combat missions by our bombers and reconnaissance aircraft.
              4. Lack of "mechanism" of action of the "duty link" of the IA.
              5. Capitulation agreements on "prevention of incidents in Syria" with our "sworn partners". soldier
              It's the same ... IMHO soldier
            3. Random
              Random 25 September 2018 14: 08
              +1
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              How did Il end up in the firing sector? Why, knowing that our scout was in a dangerous area, the Arabs continued to burn missiles on interference? ... What "monkeys" were sitting at the control devices of the air defense system? Who was in charge of this air defense battle? Why did no one lead and report to the ZRDN commander of the general VO? Was it not obvious that the "cow" was climbing into the sector from which the Jews were striking? And why did they not give the command to self-destruct the SAM? or did you not stop the exposure to the VC? - That's what you need to understand!

              Sasha, here is a confirmation to all your questions soldier

              But Konashenkov as ... a memorized mantra "daldonit am ..... "Il ... was in the line of fire .... the Jews are to blame .... the phone ... is" not working ".... the woman colonel deceived" although she clearly said ... "on north of ... AB ".... and if Konashenkov has geography ..." not toga ", well what can I say ..... what request
        3. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 24 September 2018 11: 08
          +2
          Quote: esaul
          But I am "plagued by vague doubts" that this opinion is unbiased, and not the order of the Israeli Defense Ministry.

          One hundred poods of order from Jews and liberals. I came here on the link from "Echo of Moscow".
          https://echo.msk.ru/blog/statya/2283636-echo/
        4. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 24 September 2018 11: 55
          +1
          Quote: esaul
          But I am "tormented by vague doubts" that this opinion is unbiased, and not an order of the Israeli Defense Ministry and the question - what the hell are Israeli planes doing in the skies of Syria?

          good
          1. Random
            Random 25 September 2018 13: 12
            +1
            Quote: Nikolaevich I
            and not the order of the Israeli Defense Ministry and the question - what the hell are Israeli planes doing in the sky of Syria?

            And what .. "Mr. Esaul" in "because of his ...... conviction and ... faith" cannot answer his own question? So I will answer for him ... "WE WILL ALLOW THIS" ... well, or "WE DO NOT HINDER" ... by "agreement" wassat
        5. shahor
          shahor 24 September 2018 17: 32
          0
          In fact, the Israelis did not enter Syrian airspace.
          1. Rey_ka
            Rey_ka 25 September 2018 14: 55
            +1
            so if they did not include what did the "allies" shoot?
            1. Random
              Random 25 September 2018 15: 38
              +1
              Quote: Rey_ka
              so if they did not include what did the "allies" shoot?

              Because ..... "Jews, Jews, around .... only Jews" .... and in everything .... M. Konashenkov wassat .
            2. parma
              parma 26 September 2018 07: 00
              +1
              Quote: Rey_ka
              so if they did not include what did the "allies" shoot?

              Israel and the SAR have the official diplomatic status - war. The Syrians are afraid to shoot first, because they know that they will rake in full both from Israel (missiles and bombs) and from us (diplomatically), so the Syrians only shoot back (and it doesn’t matter for them, they shot at them or at the IRGC / Hezov and where the enemy is over their land or not)
        6. Katyusha
          Katyusha 24 September 2018 20: 41
          +2
          I do not argue - the special is valid, according to the signature under the text. But I am "plagued by vague doubts" that this opinion is unbiased, and not the order of the Israeli Defense Ministry.

          Alksnis also has an "order" repeat more or less sensible and he, too, like specials.
          https://www.facebook.com/VAlksnis/posts/2233226730254982?__tn__=K-R
        7. Semen1972
          Semen1972 26 September 2018 13: 49
          -2
          Quote: esaul
          If it weren’t for the shameless invasion of someone else’s sky, then probably there wasn’t such an overlay that led to tragedy.

          As I understand it, this does not apply to IL-20? What did our plane do in a strange sky? Defended the security of Russia? From whom?
      2. To be or not to be
        To be or not to be 24 September 2018 09: 54
        +14
        It is strange that the author did not rewrite all the documentation in an article on s-200.
        There is a skillful substitution of the concepts CAUSE and CONSEQUENCE.

        The actions of C-200 operators are already a consequence.
        1. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 24 September 2018 12: 06
          +3
          Quote: To be or not to be
          There is a skillful substitution of the concepts CAUSE and CONSEQUENCE.
          The actions of C-200 operators are already a consequence.

          You mix a bunch of two levels of events ... political and military.
          1 = th: political - why do Jews bomb the territory of the SAR? (they have a war with 1973 of the year! and there is no peace treaty ..) And we do not supply the A-300B to the Arabs for protection against air strikes?
          2 = th, military man - why did they bring down Il? And who is to blame!
          And for this you need to answer the questions posed by me in a previous post. Yeah
          1. Mikhail3
            Mikhail3 24 September 2018 13: 12
            +1
            Does it burn like that? Well, let me give you a consistent version. Our plane was shot down by Jews. We had the full opportunity. May be carried away, may fulfill the order. Our government is not ready to start a war with half the world. Including because it does not want to start it with the land of Israel wiped off the face of the earth (which the Jews are counting on).
            The version is hastily molded - the Syrians were shot down by general illiteracy. The version is stupid, so Konashenkov rules it "live". Is it good?
          2. To be or not to be
            To be or not to be 24 September 2018 13: 24
            +2
            Boa kaa
            Smiled
            Listen to Yakov Kedmi from 2 .27 about why the Israeli F-16 was shot down as early as FEBRUARY 2018 ... Only carefully There everything is clear about s = 200 ..
          3. Mr Credo
            Mr Credo 24 September 2018 19: 59
            +2
            If today there is a war between Syria and Israel, why only Israel bomb Syria, and Syria Israel does not bomb?
        2. Random
          Random 25 September 2018 13: 17
          +3
          Quote: To be or not to be
          There is a skilful substitution of concepts REASON

          The author just started from this ..."The attempt by our Defense Ministry to shift responsibility for the death of 15 officers to at least someone was clearly visible.", and why .. "attempt" ... the author just ... "softened" .... true reality crying
      3. Sirocco
        Sirocco 24 September 2018 10: 30
        +9
        Quote: Andrey Yurievich
        exactly. and finally information from the specialist.

        You would google about this specialist engineer of the developer)))) Then he is an Aviaexpert, then the developer of the radar, how old is this developer, the poor fellow probably develops everything from 50x-60x))))
        Then Tu 160 displeased him. It turns out that it is necessary as China, and even better if we do not have nuclear weapons, this is what this expert says.
      4. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 24 September 2018 10: 58
        +8
        Again - 25! ..... fool
        Quote: article
        The representative of the Defense Ministry is trying to disguise the fact that our VKS failed to organize training of Syrian air defense personnel at a sufficient level.

        1. I remind particularly advanced engineers and managers that when conducting firing at an ordinary firing range with an ordinary rifleman, everyone and anyone who might accidentally get shot is removed from the line of fire.
        And when they begin to measure with a stopwatch and cards - where were the Jews, and where was Il-20, it feels like beyond the sofa with buttons on the device, these people did not crawl out.
        2. And ischo there is a whole class of such "conspiracy theorists" looking for inconsistencies and inaccuracies in the statements of the representative of the RF Ministry of Defense. These people consider themselves smarter than everyone else, as can be seen from their smug avatars.

        For those who are in the tank.
        IL-20 just did not have time to leave the line (read the zone) of a possible defeat by the air defense forces of Syria, due to its low speed, because Israel warned of the attack in just a minute or two, which the F-16 pilots could not know or understand. The F-16 attack on Hezbollah did not have any particular time limit, the attack could be canceled or delayed until IL-20 left the area.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 24 September 2018 11: 18
          +9
          Quote: stalkerwalker
          what the F-16 pilots could not know or understand

          Pilots F-16 in general on the drum, who flies there, why and why. Their job is to complete the task and return without loss on their part. If another Boeing turns up, let the Foreign Ministry understand, the Foreign Ministry is paying for this.
          Quote: stalkerwalker
          that during training firing at an ordinary firing range with an ordinary rifleman, everyone and anyone who might accidentally get hit by a shot is removed from the line of fire.

          And this is not training shooting. There is a war going on.
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 24 September 2018 11: 26
            +3
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            And this is not training shooting. There is a war going on.

            Between Russia and Israel? Can a conflict prevention communication center be closed?
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Pilots F-16 generally on the drum, who flies there, why and why. Their job is to complete the task and return without loss on their part.

            A pilot and a pilot to report to the checkpoint about a foreign aircraft in the area of ​​the strike. Otherwise, this is not a pilot (flight commander), but a learned monkey at the helm of a combat fighter.
            But the stupid and thoughtless fulfillment of the task and leads to similar conflicts that do not contribute to the achievement of the result by both (Russian and Israeli) parties.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 24 September 2018 11: 45
              +4
              Quote: stalkerwalker
              Between Russia and Israel?

              Between everyone and everyone. PvP zone, if you understand what I mean.
              Quote: stalkerwalker
              Can a conflict prevention communication center be closed?

              It is possible, but better left. Without him they would have shot down more.
              Quote: stalkerwalker
              A pilot and a pilot to report to the checkpoint about a foreign aircraft in the area of ​​the strike.

              What does the pilot care about this aircraft? He does not close his target. It may, of course, reveal the location, but it won’t direct a rocket, not Hokka tea.
              This is assuming that the F-16 and Il were indeed within direct line of sight, which is almost unbelievable.
              1. stalkerwalker
                stalkerwalker 24 September 2018 11: 51
                +1
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                What does the pilot care about this aircraft? He does not close his target. It may, of course, reveal the location, but it won’t direct a rocket, not Hokka tea.
                This is assuming that the F-16 and Il were indeed within direct line of sight, which is almost unbelievable.

                Are you playing a simulator?
                lol
                There are already noted the same BT experts who have played enough in WoT /
                laughing
            2. Rey_ka
              Rey_ka 25 September 2018 15: 18
              +1
              In general, "Planet of the Apes" at the helm of the monkey and the buttons of the monkey
            3. Random
              Random 25 September 2018 15: 42
              +2
              Quote: stalkerwalker
              A pilot and a pilot to report to the checkpoint about a foreign aircraft in the area of ​​the strike.

              There before the "area of ​​the already inflicted blow" IL-20 .... two bast shoes on the map. Where does this infa come from that the Israeli pilot did not report that he had found an air target?
              And here is why ours ... AT ALL did NOT REPORT ANYTHING ????
              Such a question to ask, what prevents ....? wink
        2. Random
          Random 25 September 2018 12: 14
          +4
          Quote: stalkerwalker
          everyone and anyone who might accidentally get hit by a shot is removed from the line of fire.

          You are all ... well, which fellow и tongue lie to such an extent .... that you do not know "how ... to make excuses .....
          write yourself ... "everyone and everyone who might accidentally get hit by a shot is removed from the line of fire." ... WHO THEN sent the IL-20, 10 minutes after the START OF SHOOTING in this sector and another 12 minutes IL-20 " built an "incomprehensible maneuver ..." if approaching the posadua "... or carried out ... the" command "..." look ... and what am I doing there F-16 ".
          I repeat the question ... WHO ???? or ... are the Israelis again? wassat
          And here .... in general ....... "white fur animal" wassat
          Quote: stalkerwalker
          IL-20 just did not have time to leave the line (read the zone) ....... because Israel warned of the attack in just a minute or two

          The Israelis warned in 21.39 ...... IL-20 shot down in 22.03 ....
          Those. The Israelis still warned, and the Il-20 .... "CAM (?????) stubbornly climbed into the firing zone fool
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 25 September 2018 12: 23
            -1
            Quote: Random
            The Israelis warned in 21.39 ...... IL-20 shot down in 22.03 ....
            Those. The Israelis still warned, and the Il-20 .... "CAM (?????) stubbornly climbed into the firing zone

            Swipe your finger elsewhere ... laughing
            Are you also from the family of "simulators" that are used to pushing buttons and gaining more victories?
            It has become clear today that it is mortally dangerous to maneuver a slow-moving aircraft in the area of ​​the strike by the Jews. And before that - they counted on the "decency" of the Jewish partners.

            IL-20 is not able to change the level and speed, like a fighter, to leave the zone of possible destruction... Know the commander Il'a that he is being substituted, he may have gone to the lowest possible height as soon as possible. If I had time.
            1. The comment was deleted.
      5. Vladimir 5
        Vladimir 5 24 September 2018 13: 33
        0
        Andrei (or Izya) Special author is good, only by the Israeli Air Force, and is catching the wave away from the Israeli F-16s, for some reason they were waiting for the IL-20 to leave for landing, and only then one simulated an attack (if there were strikes, you can still explain such a maneuver F-16, otherwise the plain water of the IL-20 mount), causing the launch of S-200 (their capabilities are known and laid in such a provocation) at the rate of IL-20 ... And most importantly, they didn’t catch for which side, they caught the most important and single reconnaissance aircraft, after which the airborne reconnaissance capabilities of the Russian Aerospace Forces in Syria fell sharply ... Here the Israelis outwitted themselves, wishing to bring down the reconnaissance aircraft and blame the Syrians, It’s correctly noticed, there will be a wave of demagogy from Israel, which we see in this article ...
        1. parma
          parma 24 September 2018 13: 59
          +4
          The question is, and the calculation of the fired rocket could even understand that this is the approach to the next attack from the F-16? Could the F-16 know that the IL-20 would go to their area, and not circled away from the site of the air battle? Could the pilot (or headquarters) of the Israeli Air Force know exactly which missile launcher would be used to launch the IL-20 into the firing zone?
          1. Random
            Random 25 September 2018 13: 38
            +2
            Quote: parma
            The question is, and the calculation of the fired rocket could even understand that this is the approach to the next attack from the F-16?

            No soldier
            Quote: parma
            Could the F-16 know that the IL-20 will go to their area

            No ... maybe they were already told in the air that our IL-20 took off and was heading towards Idlib soldier their "intelligence" works ... as it should soldier
            Quote: parma
            Could the pilot (or headquarters) of the Israeli Air Force know exactly which missile launcher would be used to launch the IL-20 into the firing zone?

            Of course NO ..... all this .. "MO excuses" to absolve myself of the blame for ..... well, you know why soldier
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 25 September 2018 21: 58
              -4
              Quote: Random
              Of course NO ..... all this .. "MO excuses" to absolve myself of the blame for ..... well, you know why

              Your enchanting ignorance in the assessments of what is happening is visible to any professional - in the Moscow Region and the General Staff, they are hardly interested in excuses, if only because they cannot be presented with anything, because they are in Moscow, not in Syria. If they suffer, then only those who are in Syria at that moment on duty, and their boss. But if this happens again, then everyone who sits in Moscow will receive a cap, which is why in two weeks they will transfer the required number of S-300s for the Syrians.
              You are clearly not in the subject, although try to show yourself to be a know-it-all.
              1. parma
                parma 26 September 2018 06: 42
                +2
                Quote: ccsr
                Quote: Random
                Of course NO ..... all this .. "MO excuses" to absolve myself of the blame for ..... well, you know why

                Your enchanting ignorance in the assessments of what is happening is visible to any professional - in the Moscow Region and the General Staff, they are hardly interested in excuses, if only because they cannot be presented with anything, because they are in Moscow, not in Syria. If they suffer, then only those who are in Syria at that moment on duty, and their boss. But if this happens again, then everyone who sits in Moscow will receive a cap, which is why in two weeks they will transfer the required number of S-300s for the Syrians.
                You are clearly not in the subject, although try to show yourself to be a know-it-all.

                Oh, and you are a great true guru, apparently .... The Defense Ministry, the General Staff and the Foreign Ministry are very interested in excuses (Israel is much more interested), because hamsters like you will have thoughts like this: "we help the Syrians - we are bombing, we are fighting, we supply free equipment, ammunition, food, medicines, we have to raise the retirement age and raise taxes at home, and this is under sanctions! And these ungrateful people are shooting at us, and moreover, our boys are being killed! The king is not real! And Israel, if desired, could even guess the return route so that wing to wing would fly next to the IL-20 (the consequences were the same as we have), and say that IL FLYED TO THEM, and the MO would not have any excuses, this is Silt from the mainland flew to the sea area, where the F-16s were already ...
                Since you do not understand, I myself will answer the questions asked by myself:
                1) the calculation of the fired rocket could even understand that this is the approach to the next attack from the side of the F-16? - No, the complex is too old, there is a tiny screen without a map and everything else, only digits of the speed of distance, etc. Therefore, you can understand the movement relative to the launcher, but not relative to the target, and all the more it is not clear why the maneuver was undertaken ..
                2) Could the F-16 know that the IL-20 would go to their area, and not circled away from the site of the air battle? - of course not, until he went there to know about this they could not, because the decision was made according to the situation, and no intelligence knew about it in advance (well, unless of course only the flight director was not paid for it) ..
                3) Could the pilot (or headquarters) of the Israeli Air Force know which rocket launcher would be used to launch the IL-20 into the firing zone? - could not know the exact PU. Could (and with a probability of 99%) the location of the Syrian air defense, but from which exactly the missile launcher will be launched and whether it will be launched at all, provided that Il appears there (which they could only speculate about) ..
                So the probability of a pre-planned provocation tends to 0, and on the fly (in less than 20 minutes, and there was no more time, because Il was shot down after 20 minutes), scroll this option in your head, coordinate with the leadership and explain to the pilot is unlikely ...
                The only option is that the F-16 used some kind of electronic warfare device, which was very interesting for our Defense Ministry, that the management decided to study it better with the help of IL, but again, to understand what kind of signal it was (and what it is interesting) , coordinate with the authorities and send Il were also a matter of minutes (even less than 20 minutes) ...
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 26 September 2018 10: 34
                  0
                  Quote: parma
                  MO, General Staff and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs are very interested in excuses (Israel is much more interested), as hamsters like you have thoughts

                  This set of words just shows that you are a typical couch strategist, and who did not stand close to the threshold of the Moscow Region, but you’re a master whistle, this is immediately evident.
                  Quote: parma
                  And Israel, if desired, could even guess the return route

                  They do not need to guess - the route is tracked in real time, wise guy. And not only by the Israelis, but also by the Americans (and through NATO too), and their data exchange has long been debugged in an automated mode, and not by telephone.
                  Quote: parma
                  Could the F-16 know that the IL-20 would go to their area, and not circled away from the site of the air battle? - of course not,

                  This is a lie - our plane repeatedly flew for reconnaissance, and the Israelis knew how it would act in a similar situation, because such situations were agreed in advance.
                  Quote: parma
                  So the probability of a pre-planned provocation tends to 0,

                  You tell it in your sandbox - there they will carefully listen to you. The fact that this was a pre-planned provocation is evidenced by the fact that not all the group of Israeli planes went on the IL-20 course, but one plane was specially detached, because the Israelis were afraid that the Syrians could make several missile launches at once, and then instead of our IL-20, the Israelis were also bombarded. Learn materiel, dreamer ...
                  Quote: parma
                  The only option is that the F-16s used some very interesting electronic warfare device for our MO,

                  Complete nonsense - the Il-20 flew in a completely different place and performed a different task, and the Israelis learned about the flight much later. So he worked on completely different goals - that's a fact. Yes, and ground stations of RTR any radiation of aviation electronic warfare systems is much cheaper and more reliable to study. Think of something more original, "expert" ...
      6. Random
        Random 25 September 2018 12: 03
        +4
        Quote: Andrey Yurievich
        exactly. and finally information from the specialist.

        Andrei, I absolutely agree with the author -: .....
        . "4. Conclusions
        The representative of the Ministry of Defense is trying to disguise the fact that our VKS failed to organize training for Syrian air defense personnel at a sufficient level.

        Blaming the command of the Israeli Air Force that they did not forbid their pilots to turn on the jammers and defend themselves against attacks from the air defense missile system - hypocrisy.

        And it’s still very softly said soldier
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 25 September 2018 12: 15
          -1
          Quote: Random
          that our VKS did not manage to organize training of Syrian air defense personnel at a sufficient level.

          I'm just wondering which of these "theorists" who talk about the training of the Syrians, at least taught our soldiers military affairs?
          1. Random
            Random 25 September 2018 13: 40
            +1
            Quote: ccsr
            I'm just wondering which of these "theorists" who talk about the training of the Syrians, at least taught our soldiers military affairs?

            Any question you have ... "libarelistic" wassat.... there is a case, the case must be confirmed by the result .... what is the result?
            Is the answer clear? soldier
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 25 September 2018 21: 48
              -4
              Quote: Random
              there is a case, the case must be confirmed by the result .... what result?
              Is the answer clear?

              Have you ever sniffed a footcloth yourself, or have you specialized more in theory? Even our excellent military and political honors in a court division once at a show of classes against the audience inflicted an artillery strike that ended in death of people — that is what training personnel even in Soviet times means. So leave alone those who prepared the Syrians - no one has yet canceled the human factor.
              1. parma
                parma 26 September 2018 07: 08
                +1
                Quote: ccsr
                Quote: Random
                there is a case, the case must be confirmed by the result .... what result?
                Is the answer clear?

                Have you ever sniffed a footcloth yourself, or have you specialized more in theory? Even our excellent military and political honors in a court division once at a show of classes against the audience inflicted an artillery strike that ended in death of people — that is what training personnel even in Soviet times means. So leave alone those who prepared the Syrians - no one has yet canceled the human factor.

                Now you say that the level of training of the Syrians (and possibly some of our specialists in Syria) leaves much to be desired, then the question is - what do you rush at the Israelis? Even the Israeli experts took advantage of the curvature of the Syrians, this is not Israeli fault ....
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 26 September 2018 10: 39
                  +1
                  Quote: parma
                  why do you rush at the Israelites?

                  Because these figures learned too well how to make provocations, completely forgetting how they tearfully pleaded not to supply S-300 to Syria. If the Syrians had S-300 complexes, this incident would not have happened - you will not dispute this fact. I think that the Israelis will still regret their provocation.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. The comment was deleted.
      1. Mr Credo
        Mr Credo 24 September 2018 08: 01
        +12
        Stas! I goof off with you! If there were no Israelites, another unexpected person would have flown! Have you noticed that we react after? We never work ahead of schedule! There are many advantages to those who write about diapers of American soldiers. Funny !? Highly. But for some reason, these diapers are constantly driving us into a corner! But we are somehow afraid of biting them. And we are afraid to the point of trembling knees! Why aren't they afraid? Who didn’t reach what frantic arrogance? Do we even somehow react to their assaults? Well, besides deep concern? And then what questions? Got a slap, attended, got a kick, got worried, got a forehead, got bothered! # Well, if they are so knowledgeable about this, why attacked Latakia, where is our airfield? # Well, it seems they are not the first time bullets in Syria. And how many times did they shoot at them? That's why they bullet that the game is negotiable and they are knowledgeable. Russia specifically shows its place in the world hierarchy. And Russia humbly agrees. No? And why are we not imposing sanctions not only against the United States, even against Ukraine? Maybe because we are below the level of Ukraine and therefore write quietly! Ura-patriotism can be expressed as much as you like, but the fact remains. Russia itself has recognized its place and this place is below the baseboard! Even the Crimean bridge was built with the help of our partners. Starting from the project and beyond.
        1. New Year day
          New Year day 24 September 2018 08: 38
          +6
          Quote: Mister Creed
          There are many advantages to those who write about diapers of American soldiers.

          that's for sure! There is no self-criticism, but to criticize means to betray by their concepts. Russia lost the most planes and helicopters in this war, how many children died can no longer be counted.
        2. Stas157
          Stas157 24 September 2018 08: 54
          +6
          Quote: Mister Creed
          Stas! I goof off with you! If there were no Israelites, another unexpected person would have flown!

          Well, who, except the Israelites, has flown so far to the location of our bases?
          Quote: Mister Creed
          Have you noticed that we react after? We never work ahead of schedule!

          I agree.
          1. Mr Credo
            Mr Credo 24 September 2018 09: 24
            +4
            Stas! Well, what are you doing! Or what !? # Well, who, except the Israelis, has flown so far to the location of our bases? # Is it also necessary for someone to fly in? Something has already arrived. Such self-made drones. Now it's the turn of larger carcasses! And already manned! And if something flies to our deeply beloved partners from us? How would they behave? Where are such experiments?
          2. Random
            Random 25 September 2018 13: 42
            +1
            Quote: Stas157
            Well, who, except the Israelites, has flown so far to the location of our bases?

            In "location" of course not, and so ... starting with the Poseidons and ending ... "small" regularly.
        3. Sirocco
          Sirocco 24 September 2018 10: 41
          0
          Quote: Mister Creed
          +5
          Stas! I goof off with you!

          Credo, I think it’s time to calm down, and not to spoil the fever, Revenge is served cold, I think it will. Do you think the February US attack on both our PMCs and the Syrians went unpunished? I doubt it. Hammer them quietly, like the American UAV decomposed in the highlands of the United States)))) and in this case, Israel chopped off the branch on which they are sitting, now they are sitting and sneezing afraid, and all their statements that they kind of spat on our statements, they say they flew the bomb and we will continue, this is the calculation on the domestic market. Recently, after all, they wiped the nose of these Boeing investigators, although many shouted that they had to put all the cards at once, it turns out that they must play with crooks according to their own rules. Jews brought to life the instructions of A.V. Suvorov, hit the enemy with his own weapon, I think the answer will fly, but where is it from? Let them sit and do not rock the boat, sawed bitches)))))
      2. Revolver
        Revolver 24 September 2018 08: 11
        +3
        Quote: Stas157
        Well, if they are so knowledgeable about this, why attack Latakia, where is our airfield?

        Then, Iran, clearly trying to hide behind the Russians, placed some kind of crap there that the Jews simply had to bomb before passing it to Hezbollah terrorists, otherwise this crap would have been launched against them. The fact that the Persians stored it in the immediate vicinity of the Russians is not a setup?
        By the way, the Jews bombed it neatly, they did not touch Russian facilities. If the Arabs did not start firing rockets into the white light like a penny, nothing would happen.
        1. Mr Credo
          Mr Credo 24 September 2018 08: 57
          +3
          Well, about independent Arabs, it’s not necessary. Do they have a small business of air defense systems there? Are all air defense systems on their own or do they have one-man management? Judging by the comment, is there a small business !? Makhnovschina in one word !?
        2. ccsr
          ccsr 24 September 2018 10: 56
          +3
          Quote: Nagan
          By the way, the Jews bombed it neatly, they did not touch Russian facilities.

          Why don't the Israelis carefully strike at Iran, at its key targets, since they are such "masters"? Or do you want to convince everyone that some small warehouses in Syria threaten Israel more than the entire military infrastructure of Iran? Don't be ridiculous - the Israelis are simply afraid to get it in full, that's why they choose what will pass with impunity for them. And this is proved by their fear of the deployment of S-300s, which were planned to be deployed in Syria, but did not do so at the request of the Israeli authorities.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 24 September 2018 11: 21
            +3
            Quote: ccsr
            Why don't the Israelis carefully strike at Iran, at its key targets, since they are such "masters"?

            There is no go-ahead. It is only in Russia that the allies have only the army and navy, and Israel is forced to take into account the opinion of the United States, the EU, and Arabs.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 24 September 2018 11: 45
              +1
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              and Israel is forced to take into account the views of the United States, the EU, and Arabs.

              You are mistaken - they don’t take anyone’s opinion into account, and the downed IL-20 confirms this.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 24 September 2018 12: 00
                +3
                Quote: ccsr
                and downed IL-20 confirms this.

                And were they the Americans, the EU or the Arabs?
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 24 September 2018 16: 47
                  0
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  And were they the Americans, the EU or the Arabs?

                  It is the Israelis, together with the Americans, who developed a special operation to quarrel Putin with Assad. The handwriting is familiar - like in Georgia in 2008, where they also acted together.
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 24 September 2018 17: 00
                    +1
                    Quote: ccsr
                    It is the Israelis, together with the Americans, who developed a special operation to quarrel Putin with Assad

                    Why should they quarrel Putin with Assad? A beautiful couple.
                    1. ccsr
                      ccsr 24 September 2018 17: 47
                      0
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Why should they quarrel Putin with Assad? A beautiful couple.

                      Ask this question to Israeli Minister Lieberman - he understands in Russian.
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 24 September 2018 18: 22
                        +1
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Ask this question to Israeli Minister Lieberman.

                        He didn’t say anything like that, it seems.
                    2. Grigory_78
                      Grigory_78 30 September 2018 00: 34
                      0
                      You still declare that Israel and K (in the sense of NATO) does not support ISIS. Well, absolutely. That this company has no interest in the destruction of the Syrian state. To quarrel Russia and Assad - for the sake of this one could risk a lot, which was done.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
          2. shahor
            shahor 24 September 2018 17: 45
            +3
            If you notice, Israel accurately and accurately destroys what it considers to be a threat to itself, in this case, the Iranian Boeing 747, which was under unloading and delivered missile assembly kits, and the missile assembly shop are at hand with the Russians.
            Israel does not strike at Syrian targets (if they are not used by Iran).
            1. Random
              Random 25 September 2018 13: 47
              +1
              Quote: shahor
              destroys what it considers a threat to itself, in this case, the Iranian Boeing 747


              Speaking of ... the "destroyed" Boeing wink

              Quote: shahor
              who delivered the missile assembly kits, and the missile assembly shop is at hand with the Russians.

              Yes ... there is a place to be (indicated on the picture) soldier
            2. ccsr
              ccsr 26 September 2018 10: 52
              0
              Quote: shahor
              Israel does not strike at Syrian targets (if they are not used by Iran).

              And why not Israelis hit Iran, since they are so steep - the effect will be greater. Knowing the Syrian situation, it is clear why the Israelis are taking advantage of this. We will wait a bit and find out how they will act when the S-300 appears in Syria.
      3. New Year day
        New Year day 24 September 2018 08: 35
        +8
        Quote: Stas157
        the tragedy of the IL-20 occurred as a result of an Israeli air raid

        The IL-20 took off even before the appearance of the Israelis, and then, after their appearance, he was sent directly to them.
        Quote: Stas157
        what does it have to do with such an area of ​​Syria where our bases are located.

        one cannot but agree with this. But the question also arises - does it mean that our people saw them and sent "Il" to them? What for? Didn't you understand that the Syrians are pulling?
        Quote: Stas157
        The Israeli military skillfully explains to us about the low qualification of the Syrian air defense because of what the shooting was.

        so it can be said about the specialists of our base. The result of their "work" and qualifications is obvious
        1. Stas157
          Stas157 24 September 2018 09: 00
          +3
          Quote: Silvestr
          The IL-20 took off even before the appearance of the Israelis, and then, after their appearance, he was sent directly to them.

          So be it. But, you agree with the statement that if there had not been an Israeli attack in the location of our base, then the tragedy would not have happened!
          1. New Year day
            New Year day 24 September 2018 10: 18
            +4
            Quote: Stas157
            But, you agree with the statement that if there had not been an Israeli attack in the location of our base, then the tragedy would not have happened!

            I do not argue!!!!!!! But there are questions for which there is no answer !!!!!!!
          2. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 24 September 2018 11: 23
            +4
            Quote: Stas157
            But, you agree with the statement that if there had not been an Israeli attack in the location of our base, then the tragedy would not have happened!

            And if there wasn’t this base?
          3. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 24 September 2018 12: 35
            +3
            Quote: Stas157
            You agree with the statement that if there had not been an Israeli attack in the location of our base, then the tragedy would not have happened!

            Nonsense! Our systems calculate EHV parameters easily. And self-defense complexes do not fire at airborne weapons with a parameter of more than 2 km, considering them not dangerous for the protected object. If they attacked "the location of our base", the air defense system of Ab Latakia or Khmeimim would have worked. But our air defense systems considered the planning AB - not dangerous for the protected object of the SVN. Therefore, they did not even fire. But the Arab air defense-shniki thrashed heartily! Everyone knows the result.
            If the command of the air defense zone / region * / sector acted competently, and promptly removed our scout from the dangerous zone (air defense zone of the battle!), The tragedy would not have happened. Therefore, you need to figure it out "step by step" and pay back "each sister for earrings"!
            By the way, according to enemy voices, the calculation of the S-200 air defense system, which shot down Il, has already been arrested and every second gives evidence about the orders received and its actions. The machine is already running. We are waiting for the results.
            1. New Year day
              New Year day 24 September 2018 13: 12
              +5
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              If the command of the zone / district * / air defense sector acted correctly, and promptly removed our scout from the danger zone (battle defense zone!), Tragedy would not have happened.

              this is the most important question everyone wants an answer to. But he is not
          4. shahor
            shahor 24 September 2018 17: 48
            -2
            If there had not been us in Syria, tragedy would not have happened!
          5. Random
            Random 25 September 2018 13: 55
            +1
            Quote: Stas157
            But, you agree with the statement that if there had not been an Israeli attack in the location of our base, then the tragedy would not have happened!

            I strongly disagree. CATEGORALLY soldier
            As it should have been (and even without it), but simply to be - the command of our group in Syria should immediately receive information from OUR intelligence and data from the control posts that an F-16 link took off from an Israeli airfield and is heading towards Latakia, t. e. essentially to the AB Hmeimim area.
            The operational duty officer, after receiving the commando from ........ had to press the alarm button and a siren howled over the airfield, along which the pilots of the duty link had to run to the aircraft and immediately take off when ready.
            In the air, obtain data on targets and fly to intercept Israeli aircraft for their further support.
            Having met Israeli planes to identify themselves, to attach themselves to them and accompany them.
            And at the Khmeimim AB, the personnel would take places according to the combat schedule and prepare, if necessary, to repel the Israeli F-16 raid on their airfield with the help of the "world's best" S-300, S-400 and Pantsir anti-aircraft missile systems.
            Then it would .. NOTHING HAPPENED soldier
        2. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 24 September 2018 09: 02
          +9
          Quote: Silvestr
          But the question also arises - so ours saw them and sent "Il" to them? What for?

          Well guys, don’t be small children. It’s clear to you that the IL-20 was located in the NORTH of the country and made the division of the NORTH province of Idlib. After a call by type of agreement from Israel with an indication of the place of attack - NORTH (North, Karl !!), ours removed the plane from there. Sent to the base, which is located in the WEST of the country of Glissad for landing at the Khmeimim airfield, it is most safe from the western side, from the sea. So Il was heading to that area along the usual approach route ...
          Now explain to me why the Jews bombed the western part of the country directly near the base, and not the indicated northern part ??? Who doubts, take a map of Syria and see where the north of the country, and where the west.
          Here is an explanation of why Il flew in the direction of finding Israeli aircraft. Don’t imagine that he was deliberately sent there .. Here, in the face there is really a chain of accidents that led to disaster. But the root cause in Israel, which wants what it does in relation to neighboring countries under the guise of its protection and infallibility hi
          1. Mr Credo
            Mr Credo 24 September 2018 09: 32
            0
            Sorry sir! # But the root cause in Israel, which he wants, does in relation to neighboring countries under the guise of his defense and infallibility! # And who admits this? Did Russia object to this or acted harshly and decisively? Well, since Israel shot down our plane flew into their territory as much as a fantastically huge two kilometers !!! And the order was given by the female captain! In Russia, sergeants command air defense calculations? Or should the order go directly from Putin?
          2. New Year day
            New Year day 24 September 2018 10: 21
            +4
            Quote: Rurikovich
            Hmeimim is the safest for approaching the aerodrome

            I, of course, am an amateur in this, but as I understand it, our locators are good and can see everything at a distance of 100 km? One must foresee!
            The late academician Fedorov once said, "if the surgeon does not know how to end the operation, then he has nothing to do in the operating room, he must think ahead!"
          3. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 24 September 2018 11: 26
            0
            Quote: Rurikovich
            After a call by type of agreement from Israel with an indication of the place of attack - NORTH (North, Karl !!)

            Where did you get this? It seems that even Konashenkov did not say this.
            Israel has nothing to bomb in the north, this is the Turkish zone of occupation.
            1. stalkerwalker
              stalkerwalker 24 September 2018 11: 31
              0
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Where did you get this? It seems that even Konashenkov did not say this.

              When it seems - it is necessary to be baptized ....
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 24 September 2018 11: 49
                0
                Quote: stalkerwalker
                When it seems - it is necessary to be baptized ....

                Oh yes. It was so. I apologize.
          4. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 24 September 2018 12: 57
            +1
            Quote: Rurikovich
            why did the Jews bomb the western part of the country directly near the base, and not the indicated northern part ???

            And what, "wider" to look at the event blinkers interfere? or education is not enough? belay
            "Partners", like air, need to open the air defense system and organization of our naval base and AB in the SAR.
            Hmeimim guards C-400. The RES parameters of the complex are secret. A French frigate with an RTR airborne complex dangles in the water area. Actions coordinated with the Jews, he even pulled a rocket from the side in the hope of her shelling our C-400. But the Russians, as usual, did not show up for war.
            And directly attacking the air base is a hassle: they can be beaten to death ... with these Russians it will become ... all the more they warned in advance that with a direct attack of our objects and forces, the CARRIERS, and not just the SVNs, will be destroyed ...
            Moreover, just like that, without the United States, one obviously cannot pull such a thing ... But the States (well done!) Instantly disowned - not us! We were not close there !!!
            Somehow, however.
          5. Random
            Random 25 September 2018 14: 11
            +1
            Quote: Rurikovich
            After a call by type of agreement from Israel with an indication of the place of attack - NORTH (North, Karl !!),

            RELATIVE ... AB Hmeimim
    4. esaul
      esaul 24 September 2018 06: 43
      +9
      Yes, at least sign up in search of the guilty parties from our Moscow Region (all the more so since Nagan should not take up attempts to throw feces on a fan in the direction of the Russian Federation) ... The fact that the Jews notified ours less than a minute before being hit by missiles completely defeats all attempts Israelis shake the blood of our specialists from their snow-white coat. If they had done this in a timely manner, either our ours (Jews) would have slowed down until our IL had landed, or even stopped them. The agreement of 2015 year is broken.
      1. Stirbjorn
        Stirbjorn 24 September 2018 08: 38
        +2
        Quote: esaul
        The fact that the Jews notified ours less than a minute before the rocket hit completely defeats all attempts by the Israelis to shake the blood of our specialists from their snow-white coat. If they had done this in a timely manner, either our ours (Jews) would have slowed down until our IL had landed, or even stopped them. The agreement of 2015 is broken.

        Well, you know, in addition to communication with Jews, there should be their own tracking systems. In the database area, one cannot rely solely on messages from the other side. And if the connection is interrupted ?! There are small distances, who, how and where it takes off, you can detect and prepare yourself!
        1. Shahno
          Shahno 24 September 2018 09: 38
          +6
          Yes, it seems to me that the contract should contain some kind of safety mechanisms and mechanisms to prevent force majeure situations.
      2. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 24 September 2018 09: 05
        +3
        Quote: esaul
        Yes, at least sign up in search of the guilty parties from our Moscow Region (all the more so since Nagan should not take up attempts to throw feces on a fan in the direction of the Russian Federation) ... The fact that the Jews notified ours less than a minute before being hit by missiles completely defeats all attempts Israelis shake the blood of our specialists from their snow-white coat. If they had done this in a timely manner, either our ours (Jews) would have slowed down until our IL had landed, or even stopped them. The agreement of 2015 year is broken.

        I agree! The plane was in the air before the strike, and if the Jews REALLY cared for the observance of the contract, they would have asked us in advance to remove the plane. And now they let the foam out of their mouth that they are honest ... Hypocrites ... request
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 24 September 2018 11: 29
          +3
          Quote: Rurikovich
          And now they let the foam out of their mouth that they are honest ... Hypocrites ...

          As far as I know, they do not let foam from the mouth. Lieberman, when he returned to himself, honestly said that everything was done right and will continue in the same vein. The problems of the Sheriff Indians do not care.
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 24 September 2018 11: 32
            0
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            The problems of the Sheriff Indians do not care.

            You would, dear, be careful with the analogies.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 24 September 2018 11: 51
              +1
              We have acted and are acting with prudence and responsibility and only when we have no other choice. So nothing has changed and will not change. This is our policy, "Lieberman said.
              "... We continue to act ... and for this we have all the means and opportunities


              RIA Novosti https://ria.ru/syria/20180923/1529156750.html
          2. ccsr
            ccsr 24 September 2018 11: 52
            -1
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            that they did everything right and will continue in the same vein.

            A couple of downed Israeli planes will quickly cool the ardor of this minister from Moldova - we have already passed this.
            1. stalkerwalker
              stalkerwalker 24 September 2018 12: 00
              0
              Quote: ccsr
              A couple of downed Israeli planes will quickly cool the fervor of this minister from Moldova

              It will not come to this, it seems ..... what
              The very meaning of the agreements and the conditions for "coexistence" of Israeli and Russian aviation in the Syrian sky will change (if it has not already changed). Not in favor of the first.
            2. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 24 September 2018 12: 01
              +1
              Quote: ccsr
              we already went through it.

              Seriously? I don’t remember.
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 24 September 2018 16: 56
                0
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Seriously? I don’t remember.


                "On December 4, 1983, Soviet air defenses shot down the A-7 Corsair II and A-6 Intruder attack aircraft. For the first time in ten years since the war ..."
                https://topwar.ru/147261-operacija-kavkaz-2-kak-sovetskaja-pvo-spasala-siriju.html
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 24 September 2018 18: 25
                  +2
                  Quote: ccsr
                  https://topwar.ru/147261-operacija-kavkaz-2

                  And what did you remember this military historical fiction for?
                  1. ccsr
                    ccsr 25 September 2018 10: 26
                    0
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    And what did you remember this military historical fiction for?

                    Moreover, the Israelis understand only force, and the more they are injured, the faster they negotiate.
                    By the way, do you deny the very fact of the shooting down of Israeli aircraft by Soviet air defense forces or not? Or maybe for you "fiction" is just what took place when you were not in the project.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 25 September 2018 11: 30
                      0
                      Quote: ccsr
                      By the way, do you deny the fact of the downing of Israeli aircraft by Soviet air defense forces or not?

                      "Fact"?
                      Losses always taken according to the lost side. Be it Hartmann, Korea or AIV accounts. Because the knocking side does not know and cannot know this, regardless of even Comrade’s reputation. Epishev or Mr. Konoshenkov.

                      This is not to mention the fact that few considered Comrade Andropov a senile. To send a couple of regiments to certain death is not in the late Soviet style. Advisers - please, but not regulars.
                      More reminiscent of the current order.
                      1. ccsr
                        ccsr 25 September 2018 12: 12
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        To send a couple of regiments to certain death is not in the late Soviet style.

                        Complete nonsense - Soviet servicemen fought in Korea and Vietnam, but you do not seem to be aware that this is not "late Soviet style".
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Losses are always taken according to the lost side.

                        The lost side always distorts the true losses - you do not know this either, but you are already trying to judge.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Because the knocking side does not know and cannot know,

                        Even if the wreckage of the downed planes is presented to you?
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 25 September 2018 16: 31
                        +1
                        Quote: ccsr
                        will show you aircraft?

                        Transport worker Do.28 No. 16, shot down on October 22, 73?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        The lost side always distorts the true loss - you don’t even know it

                        The losing party maintains and publishes a list of losses by name. At least when it comes to Jews with Americans. But it is impossible to reliably establish other people's losses even now.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Complete nonsense - Soviet servicemen fought in Korea and Vietnam, but you do not seem to be aware that this is not "late Soviet style".

                        The Soviet leadership, admittedly, was smarter than the current one. Without a chance of winning the war, it didn’t fit. FGP and Korean pilots are not two regiments of the regulars that you write about. As well as 100500 polite people as part of the GSVS here and there.
        2. konstantin68
          konstantin68 24 September 2018 18: 06
          +3
          Quote: Rurikovich
          and if the Jews REALLY cared for compliance with the treaty,

          And the radar operator did not see that our plane was nearby? When you maneuver in a traffic stream, are you also guided only by the signals of neighboring cars, or do you sometimes look around on the sides? This is so for you, for a general understanding of the essence of the tragedy.
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 24 September 2018 18: 18
            0
            Quote: konstantin68
            And the radar operator did not see that our plane was nearby?

            My dear!
            Have you ever sat (stood or lay) in front of a radar monitor? Do you know that each radar (radar) is "sharpened" for strictly defined target parameters? That any system for calculating EDC (elements of target movement) inevitably lags behind the real position of the target, even if by milliseconds, especially if the target is high-speed? About the fact that there are a lot of parameters that either hinder or even prevent the "isolation" of the target mark?
            Compare visual observation with radar - the top of technical illiteracy.

            How many of you here who have played enough in simulators and who consider themselves experts?
            1. konstantin68
              konstantin68 24 September 2018 19: 12
              +3
              Quote: stalkerwalker
              Have you ever sat (stood or lay) by the radar monitor?

              Dear, as I understand it, you have been with the radar for a long time. Explain to me, in this case, the air defense system operator has no idea about the environment? So, in your opinion? How will he conduct a real battle in the presence of several targets in the sky? At least a dozen, for starters? I don’t know how the algorithm works, but I’m sure that the general situation is known, because it cannot be otherwise.
              I don’t play simulations, the age is not the same.
              1. stalkerwalker
                stalkerwalker 25 September 2018 16: 24
                0
                Quote: konstantin68
                I don’t play simulations, the age is not the same.

                And I defended the marine performance radars in the total result of years of commercials 10 in total ...
                And just don't say that Don, Naiad, Pechora, as well as JRC and FURUNO, have nothing to do with the radar.
                They have. Since the system for capturing and tracking targets has the same algorithm. The difference in software and hardware.
                Quote: konstantin68
                Explain to me, in this case, the air defense system operator has no idea about the environment?

                I explain.
                The radar operator has only those target marks, the signal of which the scanner received after being reflected from the target. The larger the target (or higher its RCS), the better the mark is read. The system captured the F-16 and led it in auto-capture, simultaneously bringing the launcher to the pre-launch position. And the F-16, having made a maneuver, went into the "shadow" of the Il-20. Explain further?

                Now let's move on to your automotive topic.
                You are driving along the highway in the middle lane at a permitted speed. And you on the left are overtaken by a "Schumacher" on a car, and even cuts. You, esessno, slow down, trying to avoid an accident, but a heavily loaded KAMAZ "catches up" you from behind. Your "swallow" is rolling into a pancake. The kamazist on the DVR has the whole picture with a "setup". But in an accident, imagine, they blame you, or what is left of you ... fellow
            2. Random
              Random 25 September 2018 15: 53
              +1
              Quote: stalkerwalker
              About the fact that there are a lot of parameters that either hinder or even prevent the "isolation" of the target mark?

              You didn’t have enough 25 minutes to .. "identify" the target ???? ... Then home to Aviadarts or some "meow show" and no further soldier
              And ... even to the Patriot park ... "hang noodles" .... grateful listeners wassat
      3. Revolver
        Revolver 24 September 2018 16: 28
        +2
        Quote: esaul
        Nagan not to take attempts to throw feces on the fan in the direction of the Russian Federation

        In the direction of Russia has never thrown. To the Arabs and Iran - yes, I threw it, I throw it, and I will throw it, because they deserve it, and they are in the feces anyway, because I am not the only one to throw them, who want to throw a lot in them, and not just the feces , but something more serious. And the fact that spray sometimes flies from these feces in Russians - so get away from the Arabs so that you don’t accidentally get from the intended feces. Moreover, they are not only throwing feces at them.
      4. Random
        Random 25 September 2018 15: 48
        +1
        Quote: esaul
        Yes, even sign up in search of the perpetrators from our MO

        And why is there "to be recorded" everything is clear there .... "the fact in the face" - did not hear, did not see, waited ... for a phone call wassat
        Quote: esaul
        The fact that the Jews notified ours less than a minute before the rocket hit completely defeats all attempts by the Israelis to shake the blood of our specialists from their snow-white coat.

        Attack on targets in Latakia ... IL-20 flies in the area of ​​Idlib .... map too lazy to see? wassat
        Quote: esaul
        If they had done this in a timely manner, either our ours (Jews) would have slowed down until our IL had landed, or even stopped them.

        Yeah .... "uncles, Jews, please don't take off .... otherwise we have not yet .... prepared." wassat
        What kind of "political nonsense" ???? am
    5. Olgovich
      Olgovich 24 September 2018 06: 55
      +6
      Quote: Nagan
      That is, the head> | <disgust and hand> | <disgust of the Arabs, and the lack of proper control over them by the Russian forces in Syria caused the tragedy

      But how was it possible to shoot around the Russian air base?
      It is becoming increasingly apparent that there was no ban on the Syrians firing at the usual approach area for Russian aircraft at the air base (from the sea). But there are many planes landing daily. And this despite the fact that the quality of training of the Syrians is known ...
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Mr Credo
          Mr Credo 24 September 2018 08: 07
          +3
          Well then, let Israel refuse US assistance. What? Bored?
          1. shahor
            shahor 24 September 2018 17: 53
            0
            Let Assad refuse Iran’s help. What?
        2. cyborg
          cyborg 24 September 2018 10: 43
          +5
          So the base is on Syrian territory. Assad - the legitimate president of Syria, allowed to place Iranian objects on its territory, since Iran helps the Syrians in the fight against the igil. Moreover, these objects are located not only not on the bases of the Russian Federation, but not even near them. So how can Russia push them back? Hezbollah is also struggling with the Isis. Why should Russia bomb them?
          The Americans set up missile defense bases in Poland and Romania. Russia does not like it. So if you follow the Jewish logic, we must destroy them.
          In general, these are your graters with the Arabs. Negotiate, bribe. If they are terrorists, then destroy them. But why shit? All the relationships that have been building with Russia for years, you sent the dog down the drain ...
          1. konstantin68
            konstantin68 24 September 2018 18: 08
            +2
            Quote: kiborg
            So the base is on Syrian territory. Assad - the legitimate president of Syria, allowed to place

            And the Jews will tell you that Assad does not control the territory of his country, and, de facto, they will be right.
            1. cyborg
              cyborg 9 October 2018 10: 09
              0
              And then we must tell the Poles and Romanians the same thing and start the bombing of American air defense bases? After all, they are directed against us. As for Syria, it is the Jews with the amers launched the Ishil there. Now, if you also bring the Palestinians against the Jews, arm them. And then gouging the remnants of Israel, saying they say Netanyahu does not control his country.
        3. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 24 September 2018 13: 12
          +5
          Quote: Roman777
          As well as Iran and Hizbal can be built near the Russian base. Move them away from you and there will be no bombing near your bases

          This is actually Syrian land ... Is there a Hezbollah or a Persian on the one that we are allotted to the base by the SAR government? -- not! Then this question is not for us ... But the Jews have a war with the SAR, and Iran is threatening to dig you up to its paisers in the sand!
          So, the next time, after firing / launching in the direction of our military facilities, you run the risk of shocking tomatoes! Do you have brains? And the GDP will not help you in any way: otherwise our people will cease to understand it! And now is not the time to cover up the Jewish "partners" to the detriment of the country's unity ...
          IMHO.
    6. Sadko88
      Sadko88 24 September 2018 07: 18
      +4
      The question must be asked, why did Syrian air defense generally have to open fire and what did the IDF do there? And what is Russia to do now with Israel, betraying the trust of our military. Everything else is water.
    7. antivirus
      antivirus 24 September 2018 08: 20
      +4
      Therefore, the decision to maneuver the IL-20 towards the sea can only be explained by the illiteracy of the air defense command. I would like to know from General Konashenkov: where were our advisers at this time?
      FRENCH IL20 STUDY
      according to the conclusions-- all nonsense - who holds the bump - hl question !!!
      if we are a superpower - Israel must notify and wait in the waiting room until we deign to finish ALL OF ACTIONS and free up space for f16

      if we are a regional power (second Turkey) - then see different interpretations of the facts and make sure.

      WEAKNESS IS NOT IN MO --- And the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (and the Kremlin ??)
    8. New Year day
      New Year day 24 September 2018 08: 21
      +2
      Quote: Nagan
      Actually what many wrote here from the first days, and raked down the minuses for it.

      emotions, emotions! We did not want to believe in .d .... m leadership. Alksnis was already talking about this for the first day. Window dressing gentlemen, comrades, window dressing everywhere!
  2. Snail N9
    Snail N9 24 September 2018 06: 31
    +6
    If we approach the problem even more "honestly", then the calculation of the Syrian air defense system is not to blame, because from my former service in the ranks of the SA I know that it was possible to teach a soldier more or less only by the end of the second year of service, and those who could do more, - there were only a few. I do not think that the Syrians from the "geeks" - while they thought, but decided, and a tragedy occurred. But this is a normal "average level", I do not think that a calculation from Russian conscripts would show the best results in such conditions. All questions to that and the fault of that. who sent the plane already approaching to land to check the actions of the Israelis, who did not calculate what could happen in the conditions of the Israeli electronic warfare, I don’t think he didn’t know about them — the Israelis went to Syria, how they go home. The blame is clearly on the command of the Aerospace Forces.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 24 September 2018 08: 28
      +3
      Quote: Snail N9
      I don't think that Syrians from "geeks"- while they thought, but decided, and a tragedy occurred.

      That is why in the area of ​​the RUSSIAN air base, ANY launch should be controlled by the RUSSIAN military. Or a priori banned, in spite of any attacks by anyone.

      Isn't that obvious?
      Quote: Snail N9
      who psent offAlready approaching plane, check Israeli actions

      This is generally a new aspect - the verification of the activities of the Israelis: in the Moscow Region they said the opposite, that they did not manage to get away from the dangerous area request
  3. zan_parti
    zan_parti 24 September 2018 06: 47
    +16
    It is described in great detail why the Syrians and Russians are to blame.
    And the fact that the whole Israelis created this situation, violated the rules, misled us, provoked the Syrians - not a word about that.

    And what did the Israeli Air Force do there?

    My opinion is that perhaps we and the Syrians showed inconsistency, made mistakes.
    But Israel has committed a crime.
    1. Mr Credo
      Mr Credo 24 September 2018 08: 29
      +4
      What crime did Israel commit? Examined our military? Exam
      it is a crime? Or unlearned crime? In fact, the Russian Defense Ministry acknowledged the fact of a contract game! Well, not
      Israel calculated a little of its strength and broke Russia! Well, who thought that Russia is so weak and stupidly missed a beat! If a boxer missed a hit, is the opponent to blame? Is weak boxer training an adversary’s crime? Well? I don’t even know what to say! A generation of Pepsi steers !? Reformatted Russia quickly! Already disgusting! I am not I and not my horse! What a disgrace!
      1. Snail N9
        Snail N9 24 September 2018 09: 44
        0
        This "disgrace" began, back, from the time of "ichtamnet" .... sad
      2. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 24 September 2018 13: 27
        +1
        Quote: Mister Creed
        Well, Israel did not calculate a bit of its strength and broke Russia! Well, who thought that Russia is so weak and stupidly missed a beat!

        Mister! Do not bend over the edge! Before this "Bonaparties", Adik also tried to "break" ... their kingdom of heaven!
        Therefore. Once again, the Jews jerk - and go along the beaten track ... the first two ...
        You better study the statements of the greats about Russia more often ... to strengthen faith in your Fatherland ... Well, there is von Bismarck, the same Lord Marlboro, reminiscent of the memorable Winston, who had clicked at one time ... It will be more useful for mental health and emotional balance! laughing
        1. Mr Credo
          Mr Credo 24 September 2018 20: 24
          +2
          Thanks for the tip! But I do not bend the stick. There is no longer a question of faith in one's Fatherland. This is the main question of faith in their leadership. But unfortunately there is no faith in their leadership. hi
          1. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 24 September 2018 21: 26
            +1
            Quote: Mister Creed
            There is no longer a question of faith in one's Fatherland. This is the main question of faith in their leadership. But unfortunately there is no faith in their leadership.

            Americans at one time (1960) published a book - "Psychology and the Soldier" was called. So in it, the author, military psychologist Norman Copeland, defined the conditions for victory in modern war:
            To win, "a soldier must believe in his country, in the cause of his country, in the leadership of the country, in the commander, in his comrades ..." This is the essence of the psychological preparation of the l / s for war. Briefly, succinctly, in essence !!! Studied in detail in "akamedi" ...
            The question is: how "without this" you are going to defeat the enemies of the Fatherland? negative
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 25 September 2018 10: 49
              0
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              Americans at one time (1960) published a book - "Psychology and the Soldier" was called. So in it, the author, military psychologist Norman Copeland, defined the conditions for victory in modern war:

              In fact, the whole military psychology of the Americans was ripped off from the work of Tsarist General Dragomirov, which they processed under their own mentality and used to train military personnel. It’s just that in Soviet times it was somehow not customary to mention this great military theoretician, which is why his name was often hushed up, especially when the issue concerned the education of the Red Army-KA-SA.
              Dragomirov singled out three main aspects of military education: the education of the mind and will, moral education and physical education. The center of all educational work, according to Dragomirov, should be moral education. He believed that the moral factor is a decisive factor and the fate of the war depends on the degree of moral preparation of the army.
  4. The comment was deleted.
  5. Yak28
    Yak28 24 September 2018 07: 12
    +10
    We came up with some ridiculous nonsense that the Israeli pilots were hiding behind our plane, and the fact that the backward-facing operator of the air defense complex is normal, that our military could not establish interaction with the Syrian air defense forces is also in the order of things. their mistakes and blame from a sore head to a healthy
    1. Waddimm
      Waddimm 24 September 2018 07: 38
      +5
      I agree. On the part of our Defense Ministry, there is a clear attempt to justify itself by another "photo report" to hide an unattractive picture of division ... and incompetence of officials, which led to another tragedy with the death of people.
      1. Stirbjorn
        Stirbjorn 24 September 2018 08: 52
        +6
        Quote: Waddimm
        "photo report" to hide the unsightly picture of the divisions and incompetence of officials, which led to the next tragedy with the death of people.

        Well, what do you want if our commander-in-chief of the Aerospace Forces Surovikin became one a year ago. And before that, he spent his entire career "on the ground", in motorized riflemen. Well, what kind of competence can there be, these are different types of troops ?! And the losses immediately went up - 4 aircraft were lost this year, although the intensity of the fighting dropped significantly - 1 Su-25 (1), 1 Su-30 (2), 1 Il-20 (15 dead), 1 An-26 (39 dead).
  6. Clueless
    Clueless 24 September 2018 07: 52
    +5
    Twenty five again. There is a reason, but there is a consequence.
    Reason - Israeli Airplanes
    The consequence - Syrian air defense and our plane.
    There would be no reason - there would be no effect. Everything is simple.
    1. Revolver
      Revolver 24 September 2018 08: 18
      +2
      Do you think that the Jews will decide to bomb the "aluminum plant", will expose their planes to anti-aircraft gun fire, spend not the cheapest bombs? Iran would not be hiding what it was hiding there, and there would be nothing to bomb and there is no need.
      Quote: Bad
      There would be no reason - there would be no effect. Everything is simple.
    2. Wilderness
      Wilderness 24 September 2018 08: 40
      +4
      Quote: "... The reason is Israel's aircraft ..."
      And also the force of gravity, other laws of physics, the birth of an aircraft designer Ilyushin, the creation of Design Bureau Ilya and much more ... And the air defense is not to blame. And the flight director too.
      It is interesting if a policeman, firing at a criminal, threatens a bunch of civilians in the crowd, between whom the villain will run - will such an excuse be counted?
    3. Avior
      Avior 24 September 2018 09: 37
      +4
      I'm sorry, but with such reasoning you need to start deeper.
      Like, there wouldn’t be a Russian plane in Syria, they wouldn’t be shot down. or - there would be no revolution in Iran - he would not have been shot down. Or there would be no S-200-Il complex would not have been shot down. and in general, there would be no Israel- Il would not have been brought down.
    4. Shahno
      Shahno 24 September 2018 09: 49
      +6
      Then the real reason is our war with Syria (legally, and in fact). It was not known. And negligence also exists in our Air Force units ... it can fire.
  7. New Year day
    New Year day 24 September 2018 08: 18
    +4
    finally at least some truth looms. The question is, the war has been going on for 3 years and for 3 years the contact and training of the Syrians has not been established? 3 years, our pilots flew under the threat of being shot down by the Syrians? What the hell was the chief infantryman and the rest of the instructor advisers doing there?
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 24 September 2018 10: 07
      +3
      Quote: Silvestr
      The question is, the war has been going on for 3 years and 3 years the Syrians haven’t contact and training 3 years, our pilots flew under the threat of being shot down by the Syrians?

      Already at least in the area of ​​their airbase, they could take the situation with air defense fully under your control!
      I can’t even believe it. that this was not done ...
  8. rum
    rum 24 September 2018 08: 22
    -2
    So much divorced is * radar development engineer * * Russian citizens * with Israeli passports lol
    And since the VO site became slightly yellow, then I think soon Putin, Shoigu, Lavrov will appear here and will tell you how this * radar development engineer * laughing
    1. New Year day
      New Year day 24 September 2018 09: 07
      +2
      Quote: Rum
      So much divorced is * radar development engineer * * Russian citizens * with Israeli passports

      disprove written! By the way, when the borders were opened, the design bureaus of the Nikolaev shipbuilding yards were empty, everyone left. Guess where?
      Quote: Rum
      soon Putin, Shoigu, Lavrov will appear here and I will talk about how this * radar development engineer *

      Putin has already "created" 25 million jobs, now is Shoigu's turn?
      1. rum
        rum 24 September 2018 10: 24
        0
        What * business * do I have to refute?
        Design bureau of the Nikolaev shipyards left for the Russian Federation? Abaldet ..... And where else?
        Excuse me right away ... but your opinion, like mine, IS INTERESTING for Putin. Dogs bark, the caravan is coming! I hope you understand why I wrote a proverb?
        1. New Year day
          New Year day 24 September 2018 10: 40
          0
          Quote: Rum
          Where else?

          to Israel, dear, to Israel!
          1. faiver
            faiver 24 September 2018 12: 10
            +1
            aircraft carriers to build cruisers? laughing
    2. Avior
      Avior 24 September 2018 09: 32
      +3
      this is far from his first article on VO.
      and he is truly a radar developer.
      1. rum
        rum 24 September 2018 10: 34
        +2
        and he also signs up, an aviation expert ..... Something has come up a lot of experts, political scientists and the rest is funny
  9. New Year day
    New Year day 24 September 2018 08: 46
    +8
    On November 24, 2015, a Su-16 aircraft was shot down by Turkish F-24 in Syria. The reason was that there was no bomber covering by fighters, there was no radar control of airspace, the landing area was not blocked from the air, and the search and rescue service did not work in a timely manner. Who was held accountable? None!
    On February 3, 2018, a Su-25 aircraft was shot down in Syria. The reason is that on the Su-25 plane at the time of launching the anti-aircraft missile, the militants did not have fired thermal traps capable of taking the MANPADS missile to the side.
    The aircraft did not undergo modernization to install an airborne defense system against MANPADS missiles, although similar modernization was already carried out on other Su-25s in Russia. There was no radar control of the airspace, there were no aircraft of the radio-detection and guidance aviation complex, which did not allow to timely determine the place of the crash of the aircraft and send helicopters and attack aircraft there. The search and rescue service did not work in a timely manner, the landing area was not blocked from the air. Who was held accountable? None!
    On September 17, 2018, an IL-20 electronic intelligence aircraft was shot down. 15 crew members were killed. The reason - there was no interaction between the Syrian and Russian air defense systems, the Syrian air defense systems are not equipped with interrogators of the state recognition system. There was no radar control of airspace in the far zone, there was no cover for the Il-20 reconnaissance aircraft by fighters, in the presence of which Israeli planes would refuse to attack ground targets and the Il-20 could safely land at the Khmeimim airbase.
    Who will be held accountable for this? None!
    The main reason for all these troubles is the flagrant lack of professionalism and incompetence of our military command, beginning with the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation and ending with the command of our group in Syria.
    Victor Alksnis
    1. Mr Credo
      Mr Credo 24 September 2018 09: 06
      +8
      And here I also agree with Alksnis! Or is he also an agent of the CIA and the State Department? Or was he paid with cookies?
      1. rum
        rum 24 September 2018 10: 26
        0
        It only says what Alksnis wrote .... What was in reality, NO ONE WILL KNOW ... Yes, and it is not supposed to know .....
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 24 September 2018 12: 14
      0
      Quote: Silvestr
      Syrian air defense systems are not equipped with interrogators of the state recognition system.

      The "friend or foe" identification system is not a panacea! Maybe it's enough to "knock" with the "friend or foe" system, like a shaman playing a tambourine?
      1. rum
        rum 24 September 2018 12: 35
        +1
        Our system "friend or foe" does not seem to be supplied for Import?
  10. sergo1914
    sergo1914 24 September 2018 08: 47
    +3
    The text in the field of describing the operation of the GOS missile of the S-200 complex contains, to put it mildly, inaccuracies
  11. Avior
    Avior 24 September 2018 09: 30
    +7
    The first article with an attempt to objective analysis.
    before that, solid hailikey about how meanly the Jews framed Il, despite any facts.
    And if you really understand, what happened?
    Participants in the fight against the prohibited ISIS - formally, everyone is engaged in this and only this, besides the declared goal, they also pursue those that are not declared out loud.
    For the Kremlin, this is Assad’s support in power, for Hezbola and the Iranians, the struggle against Israel.
    Syria has become a convenient platform for the transfer of weapons to Hezbolah from the Iranians and the Iranian bridgehead against Israel, so it is not surprising that Israel strikes at such targets.
    This is beneficial for Russia on the one hand, as it weakens Iran’s influence in Syria, on the other hand, Jews say that Russia is merging the warnings received from Israel aimed at the security of the Russian military to the Syrians and Iranians, so Israel began to warn of attacks only directly in front of them. In addition, the Russian military allowed the creation of such facilities almost next to the facilities of the Russian military. Thus, the Russian command not only supported the Iranians for some reason, but also leaked its own security.
    The first message from the Moscow Region was that they shot down Il around 23-00.
    The second is at 22-07.
    The third is at 22-03.
    It is understandable why, as it became clear that the Jewish planes were not there at the time of the destruction of Il, and the first statements that, allegedly at the time of the attack, Il was landing — a primitive lie. Despite the loud announcements, no real minute data was presented by the Moscow Region, although it is obvious that there is no secret in them, except for the secret of determining the culprit of the tragedy.
    It is now obvious that at the time of the Jewish strike, Il flew in the depths of Syrian territory, and only then he was sent to the strike area to illuminate the situation.
    But at the same time he was sent so that he flew along the coast of Syria from the south, along the same actual route as the Israeli aircraft. Therefore, the Syrians did not need to make a mistake in order to bring down Il; they saw another target from Israel to strike the second wave, and simply shot down the Israeli, as they believed the plane.
    It is striking that, despite all the statements, there was no interaction between the Syrians and the Russian military in air defense. A separate topic is the role of the S-400 in this story. More precisely, its complete absence, which does not speak very well about the complex or its personnel. There is no recognition of a friend or foe, so it is surprising that the Syrians did not shoot down before.
    And now the MO is trying its hardest to transfer the grossest mistakes to the Jews. Still, the generals should be responsible for this with posts and ranks.
    1. MKPU-115
      MKPU-115 24 September 2018 12: 25
      0
      Quote: Avior
      The first article with an attempt to objective analysis.
      before that, solid hailikey about how meanly the Jews framed Il, despite any facts.
      And if you really understand, what happened?
      Participants in the fight against the prohibited ISIS - formally, everyone is engaged in this and only this, besides the declared goal, they also pursue those that are not declared out loud.
      For the Kremlin, this is Assad’s support in power, for Hezbola and the Iranians, the struggle against Israel.
      Syria has become a convenient platform for the transfer of weapons to Hezbolah from the Iranians and the Iranian bridgehead against Israel, so it is not surprising that Israel strikes at such targets.
      This is beneficial for Russia on the one hand, as it weakens Iran’s influence in Syria, on the other hand, Jews say that Russia is merging the warnings received from Israel aimed at the security of the Russian military to the Syrians and Iranians, so Israel began to warn of attacks only directly in front of them. In addition, the Russian military allowed the creation of such facilities almost next to the facilities of the Russian military. Thus, the Russian command not only supported the Iranians for some reason, but also leaked its own security.
      The first message from the Moscow Region was that they shot down Il around 23-00.
      The second is at 22-07.
      The third is at 22-03.
      It is understandable why, as it became clear that the Jewish planes were not there at the time of the destruction of Il, and the first statements that, allegedly at the time of the attack, Il was landing — a primitive lie. Despite the loud announcements, no real minute data was presented by the Moscow Region, although it is obvious that there is no secret in them, except for the secret of determining the culprit of the tragedy.
      It is now obvious that at the time of the Jewish strike, Il flew in the depths of Syrian territory, and only then he was sent to the strike area to illuminate the situation.
      But at the same time he was sent so that he flew along the coast of Syria from the south, along the same actual route as the Israeli aircraft. Therefore, the Syrians did not need to make a mistake in order to bring down Il; they saw another target from Israel to strike the second wave, and simply shot down the Israeli, as they believed the plane.
      It is striking that, despite all the statements, there was no interaction between the Syrians and the Russian military in air defense. A separate topic is the role of the S-400 in this story. More precisely, its complete absence, which does not speak very well about the complex or its personnel. There is no recognition of a friend or foe, so it is surprising that the Syrians did not shoot down before.
      And now the MO is trying its hardest to transfer the grossest mistakes to the Jews. Still, the generals should be responsible for this with posts and ranks.

      Who did the objective analysis? "Andrey Gorbachevsky, radar design engineer" - he is the same radar designer as I am a Spanish pilot. Most recently, Andrei Gorbachevsky was an aviation expert on the Tu-160, he is a pissed clown and a corrupt brute.
  12. DimanC
    DimanC 24 September 2018 09: 40
    +3
    Strange: the author does not know the location of the radar. And at the reconstruction of the Moscow Region, they even held an imaginary line, as if showing how Israeli planes could hide.
    The fact that the IL-20 began to fly in circles above the airfield is normal, the wind could be in such a direction that the circles above the airfield had to be turned exactly from such courses.
    The claims of our Defense Ministry are not related to the qualifications of the Syrian anti-aircraft gunners (I agree with the author here, it can easily be low, not to mention the fact that an outright traitor could have been sitting on this installation and firing intentionally), but with the fact that the Israeli Air Force warned our about its blow literally in a minute when it was physically difficult for us to clear the sky. Further, ours refute the statements of the Jews that they removed their planes an hour before our defeat.
    So, it turns out that the author of the article wanted to rebuke our MO, and in the process examined one, and went to another ...
    1. region58
      region58 24 September 2018 19: 00
      +1
      Quote: DimanC
      they warned us of their blow literally in a minute when it was physically difficult for us to clear the sky.

      That is, you agree that it was impossible to shoot air defense systems in the "uncleared sky". Then why the claims (justified or not - we will omit for now) to everyone except the "shooters"?
  13. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 24 September 2018 09: 43
    +7
    Roman 777
    Move them away from you and there will be no bombing near your bases
    You also set a condition? Frozen at the end. Russia already made a concession to you by removing the Iranians from the Golan Heights. Iran in Syria at the request of the government of this country, and you climb onto foreign territory, and even strike?
  14. Larum
    Larum 24 September 2018 10: 03
    +2
    It is strange that for timing the Jews still for some 20 minutes supposedly spun there in the distance. What for? What for?

    Attack again (MO statement) - so the Syrians are ready, and the missiles are supposedly just good on the oncoming lane.
    Lured rockets?
    MO data on the number of issued air defense and bombs consumed did not result, timing is approximate.
    And IL in these 20 minutes taxis to F, the shooting continues, F spin ...

    Strange and illogical.

    And right away - did you start firing at past times, too, after striking?
  15. KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD 24 September 2018 10: 37
    0
    . At this time, our VKS was warned about launching these bombs on targets in the area of ​​Latakia.
    There was a warning (actually retroactively) about the attack on the NORTH of Syria, and certainly not with such a detailed specification of the place. There is a recording of this conversation.
    and the power of the EW transmitters would not be enough to suppress the radar of the Syrian air defense system if the F-16 came closer.
    And in my opinion, the suppression efficiency increases as the jammer approaches the radiation object.
    Since the IL-20 was twice as close to the radar as the F-16, the signal reflected from it was 20 times more powerful due to the difference in image intensifier and 16 times more powerful because of the difference in distances. Therefore, the total excess of the power of the signal reflected from the IL-20, compared with the power of the signal reflected from the F-16, was 320 times.
    Well, this is already outside the framework of conventional commenting - I did not begin to read further. Conclusion - the article is clearly not from a radar specialist and smacks of order from Israeli propaganda agencies ....
    1. shulgin
      shulgin 24 September 2018 17: 08
      +1
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      There was a warning (actually retroactively) about an attack on the NORTH of Syria
      Take a map, see where the attacked shed is, and where is Israel. On the map, if you know how to use it, you will see that Latakia is strictly north of Israel. And then Turkey.
    2. region58
      region58 24 September 2018 20: 10
      +1
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      and the power of the EW transmitters would not be enough to suppress the radar of the Syrian air defense system if the F-16 came closer.
      And in my opinion, the suppression efficiency increases as the jammer approaches the radiation object.

      But, since the jammer is on a plane (which has a certain EPR), the radar signal reflected from it also increases. And if you take into account that the powers differ by orders of magnitude - the jammer on the plane has units and tens of kilowatts, the radar on the ground has units and tens of megawatts, and the power of the reflected signal decreases proportionally to the 4th power of the distance, and the radiated signal is proportional to the 2nd power, and a situation arises when at a close distance the reflected signal becomes larger than the noise level. This is if directly, without fancies. At first glance, it is a paradoxical situation when it is possible to deliver interference from afar, but it will not work near.
  16. ccsr
    ccsr 24 September 2018 11: 02
    0
    Andrey Gorbachevsky, radar development engineer, writes:
    The GBU-39 gliding bomb is intended only for hitting ground targets with predetermined coordinates and poses no danger to aircraft.

    How could our leadership know where these bombs would explode, especially since they were fired towards the airfield, where the Il-20 was to land?
    Apparently the author is too great a "theoretician" and does not represent practical realities when operational decisions are made.
    At this time, the Il-20 received a command to land, but for some reason did not immediately execute it, but flew past the Khmeimim airfield in a southward direction.

    The IL-20 cannot maneuver like a fighter, which is why it takes time and space to lower and approach. It seems to the author of a custom article this is unknown.
    1. parma
      parma 24 September 2018 12: 45
      0
      Quote: ccsr
      The IL-20 cannot maneuver like a fighter, which is why it takes time and space to lower and approach. It seems to the author of a custom article this is unknown.

      And you can’t hang in the air, away from the zone of fire, if it doesn’t come out to sit differently? If the plane began to decline in the area of ​​fire, then this was done under someone's responsibility, where is the person?
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 24 September 2018 17: 01
        -1
        Quote: parma
        And you can’t hang in the air, away from the zone of fire,

        The shelling area was different, as the Israelis said.
        Quote: parma
        So it was done under someone’s responsibility, where is the person?

        To the responsibility of the Israelis, who, by agreement, are obliged to warn of their actions in advance.
  17. An64
    An64 24 September 2018 11: 27
    +2
    The technical side of the matter is somehow outlined. But for some reason no one talks about the organizational side. How was the interaction between our air force and the Syrian air defense organized? Why did our plane enter the anti-aircraft fire zone of the Syrian air defense? Why did the Syrians not close the airspace, where they began to conduct anti-aircraft fire? Why didn’t the plane leave for the alternate aerodrome? etc. etc.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 24 September 2018 11: 55
      0
      Quote: An64
      Why did our plane enter the anti-aircraft fire zone of the Syrian air defense?

      Based on the performance characteristics of the S-200 complex, he could not enter in another way.
      1. An64
        An64 24 September 2018 12: 12
        +3
        So the S-200 was not supposed to open fire while its planes were in its area of ​​operation. This is an undeniable rule.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 24 September 2018 17: 02
          0
          Quote: An64
          So the S-200 was not supposed to open fire while its planes were in its area of ​​operation.

          Even with an attack by Israeli aircraft that could carry nuclear weapons? Oh well...
          1. region58
            region58 24 September 2018 20: 17
            +2
            Quote: ccsr
            Oh well...

            As a result, we have what we have ...
  18. faiver
    faiver 24 September 2018 11: 55
    +2
    I’m not a radar development engineer, but it’s clear to the hedgehog that there are questions both to the air defense system’s calculations and to our both those responsible for interacting with the Syrians and our air defense calculations and tracking the sky. But as many have already said above, the REASON for this situation is the Israeli air force bombing of objects located near our base. Not only that, I think that according to the results of the investigation, the Syrians involved in hand-to-hand assault will also be punished, and we think our epaulettes will fly, and maybe someone will sit down ...
    1. Shahno
      Shahno 24 September 2018 13: 14
      +3
      All the same, a provoking factor, which in the war can not be considered intentional and not intentional.
      I think some of us (supposedly colonels) will also not be sweet.
    2. shulgin
      shulgin 24 September 2018 17: 11
      0
      Quote: faiver
      The reason for this situation is
      The construction of a warehouse by the Iranians in close proximity to Russian troops. Who allowed? Or who paid to allow? Answer this question.
      1. faiver
        faiver 24 September 2018 18: 06
        +1
        As I understand it, you can clearly see the Iranian warehouse from Canada ...
  19. MKPU-115
    MKPU-115 24 September 2018 12: 20
    0
    "Andrey Gorbachevsky, radar design engineer" - the author of the article is the same radar developer as I am a ballerina.
    Google, you will learn a lot about this impostor.
  20. parma
    parma 24 September 2018 12: 33
    +3
    There is no question to Israel regarding this tragedy (the question of the presence / absence of the right to strike targets on the territory of the SAR is separate), questions to our Defense Ministry (or rather to the head of our aircraft flights over the SAR) and to the command of the SAR air defense ... Why knowing about the strike The Israeli Air Force plane was directed towards the Israeli F-16s (after all, it was clear that the Syrians would try to shoot them down, but this is further)? If there was no other possibility of action (for example, there is no way to land from the side of the sea, and the fuel is running out), why weren't the Syrians informed about our plane in the direction of shelling (with a probability of 99%, no one would have been shot down anyway, 5 years of strikes, after all, they did not bring down anyone and did not even scare away) .. Why, knowing about the presence of our aircraft in the air and its location (provided that both previous points were fulfilled), the Israeli aircraft were still fired upon? Where is the consistency? And why the leadership of the SAR is on the sidelines of the proceedings, where is their version? It looks something like this - the Syrians naughty, ours did not watch it, but they all dumped everything on Israel ... They say the Syrian shot at a Jew, but hit a Russian, and the Jew is guilty of the former's curvature and the latter's inattention ... , cut once ".. And to say that the Jews were hiding behind the Il-20 is not logical (in my humble opinion), if only because: 1) the Il-20 was not there at the time of the attack, and that it was not there to go there in advance it is known (and the version about a prepared provocation looks far-fetched), 2) in the event of a Syrian missile hitting any of the aircraft (that Il-a, that the F-16) this is a blow to the image of Israel (if the F-16 is shot down, the Syrians will jump from happiness that they shot down a modern plane with an antediluvian rocket, as was the case with American axes, which by the way hit all the necessary objects as far as we know, if the Il-20 is shot down, we already see that there is), which means that Israel itself is not profitable ...
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 24 September 2018 17: 05
      -2
      Quote: parma
      There is no question for Israel on this tragedy

      And in vain - it only shows your level of understanding of what happened.
      1. parma
        parma 24 September 2018 17: 49
        +1
        The following happened - the Syrians launched a rocket into the Israelis, and fell into ours ... But our Moscow Region is now looking for a reason to blame anyone, but not the Syrians (flashed messages that the French launched a rocket) ... Why did they hit the plane half an hour after an air strike ? Why is the MoD silent, what did the IL-20 forget in the area of ​​fire, and not on the other side with its level of protection against air defense missiles? The Syrians obviously didn’t understand where they were, by what they saw on the radar (there is no identification system), and our people are covering up this moment, because their curvature is our flaw - we could not teach normal work how to isolate ourselves from their curvature too ... Therefore, to Israel there are no questions - they are well done, handsome - they flew in, the targets hit everyone and left without losses ... But there are a lot of questions for our and Syrians ...
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 25 September 2018 10: 53
          -2
          Quote: parma
          But there are plenty of questions for our and Syrians ...

          All YOUR questions will be answered by the S-300 systems delivered to Syria within two weeks. I think that you have received the answer to your question.
          1. parma
            parma 26 September 2018 06: 55
            0
            Quote: ccsr
            Quote: parma
            But there are plenty of questions for our and Syrians ...

            All YOUR questions will be answered by the S-300 systems delivered to Syria within two weeks. I think that you have received the answer to your question.

            And how will this answer the question of what the hell the Syrians fired when our plane was in the firing zone, or what did our plane forget in the firing zone? Just that we really do not coordinate actions with the Syrians, but they simply don’t think that S-300 is out of stock, which means the state system. Our recognition is there (another reason why our operators, and not Syrians, are going to study) and they will not succeed in their own way ...
            But what would you understand how much nonsense I wrote I will give an example: tomorrow (God forbid, of course) you will be injured / killed by a law enforcement officer (namely by him, and not by the suspect) from a regular PM during a shootout, and instead of an investigation / apology / punishment guilty (if necessary) the leadership of the Ministry of Internal Affairs will say "the bandit is to blame, that he was there, but we did not get there! But rejoice, tomorrow instead of PM we will give out to all employees an RPG-7 with a PG-7 grenade, so that we will surely take out the criminals!" ..
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 26 September 2018 10: 43
              -1
              Quote: parma
              tomorrow (God forbid, of course) you will be injured / killed by a law enforcement officer (namely him, not a suspect) from a regular PM during the shootout, and instead of investigating / apologizing / punishing, you will be guilty

              You probably recently finished school, and you think that I will seriously analyze all your nonsense? Once again I explain - the death of our plane did not happen if the Syrians had S-300 complexes. They were not at the request of the Israelites, who took advantage of this to make this provocation. So now this mistake will be corrected, but the loyal attitude towards the Israelis in our country has been permanently undermined. And let's see who will benefit from this more.
  21. rum
    rum 24 September 2018 12: 34
    -2
    Quote: Silvestr
    to Israel, dear, to Israel!

    Sylvester - so I wrote earlier about * Israeli passports *
  22. Egorovich
    Egorovich 24 September 2018 13: 20
    -3
    Gorbachevsky, where is the evidence that your head is healthy and you are not bought by the "elite" !? Judging by what was written, it is.
  23. Old26
    Old26 24 September 2018 14: 26
    +4
    Quote: Rurikovich
    Sent to the base, which is located in the WEST of the country of Glissad for landing at the Khmeimim airfield, it is most safe from the western side, from the sea. So Il was heading to that area along the usual approach route ...

    I would agree with your opinion, and not with the opinion of the author if there hadn’t been this scheme from the MO briefing


    The landing approach is clearly not familiar. From Itlib, Il headed south, and not to the lane, which is located in the North-South direction, but passed the base to the south, then turned west towards the sea, then north and only then in the direction perpendicular to the lane ... Why did all this have to be done? It's not clear from Konoshenkov's speech

    Quote: Stas157
    So be it. But, you agree with the statement that if there had not been an Israeli attack in the location of our base, then the tragedy would not have happened!

    Probably yes. But the Jews could strike at another point, for example, in the Banias area, and it is there, between our base and the Banias, that same 23 anti-aircraft missile brigade is located (if you believe the scheme from the briefing). That is, how then? Do not forget only one thing. There is a war going on between Syria and Israel; they have not only a peace treaty, but also a truce. And Israel will strike at Syrian territory, whether we like it or not.
    But the flaws of all this led to the tragedy, the death of 15 officers.
    As for our native Ministry of Defense, unfortunately the initial time data are very different from those that appeared later. And it is not surprising that both the author and others have questions that have no answer
    Unfortunately, the S-200 complex has already proved itself to be unsightly twice. The first time the victims were passengers of TU-154, now officers from the reconnaissance vehicle IL-20. Most likely, the qualifications of the personnel of this complex turned out to be insufficient for its guaranteed use. Alas...

    Quote: esaul
    Yes, at least sign up in search of the guilty parties from our Moscow Region (all the more so since Nagan should not take up attempts to throw feces on a fan in the direction of the Russian Federation) ... The fact that the Jews notified ours less than a minute before being hit by missiles completely defeats all attempts Israelis shake the blood of our specialists from their snow-white coat. If they had done this in a timely manner, either our ours (Jews) would have slowed down until our IL had landed, or even stopped them. The agreement of 2015 year is broken.

    Do not repeat the stupidity of our MO. According to now refined data, information about the raid was transmitted at 21.39-21.40 minutes. Missile hit in our IL occurred at 22,03. Therefore, all the talk that we did not have enough time to notify the IL does not withstand any criticism. And these are just the questions to which the Defense Ministry does not give answers, like repeating a mantra that they were informed 1 minute before the strike. And the fact that Il was struck 23 minutes after the message - they try not to focus on this.
    Now it is easiest to do as they do in our MO. Blame all the blame on the Israelis, and without taking any action themselves, to prevent a repetition of this in the future.

    Quote: Sadko88
    The question must be asked, why did Syrian air defense generally have to open fire and what did the IDF do there?

    In fact, if you are not in the know, there is a state of war between the two countries. In the 80s, it spontaneously calmed down (active databases). But no one signed a peace treaty. So this is a rhetorical question.

    Quote: antivirus
    FRENCH IL20 STUDY

    The French frigate was much north. Now, if from Itlib IL would go west, in the direction of Cyprus, it became clear that he was studying the Frenchman. And then the first messages in general were that the frigate made missile launches and as a result the IL was shot down. True, what launches - cruise and anti-aircraft missiles were not specified. And the time was called 23.00. Then they switched to Israeli fighters
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 24 September 2018 17: 10
      -1
      Quote: Old26
      Unfortunately, the S-200 complex has already proved itself to be unsightly twice. The first time the victims were passengers of TU-154, now officers from the reconnaissance vehicle IL-20. Most likely, the qualifications of the personnel of this complex turned out to be insufficient for its guaranteed use. Alas...

      Based on your logic, if a stoned drug addict drives into another car in a car, and it flies out "towards" from the impact and collides with your car, in which, God forbid, someone suffers, then the drug addict will not be to blame, but the car that drove into yours. And the automaker is found guilty. Originally, you will not say anything ...
  24. Bolo
    Bolo 24 September 2018 15: 17
    -3
    Author Andrei Gorbachevsky, what are you going to spend 30 Jewish shekels on? So I painted that I was right sorry for the liquid!
    1. KERMET
      KERMET 24 September 2018 17: 54
      +3
      Why was our MO so surprised by this warning one minute before the strike, if from a briefing they themselves recognized that Israel had already warned them 25 times only
      just before the blows?
  25. konstantin68
    konstantin68 24 September 2018 17: 47
    +3
    I’m not a radar developer, but I wrote the same in the first days after the tragedy.
  26. kutuz
    kutuz 24 September 2018 22: 49
    +1
    There was even no doubt that the author would be spit on "hurray patriots" and accused of collusion with Israel. Of course, the article goes against the TV, and the article actually justifies the "insidious Israelis" and once again proves the absolute inability of the Russian Armed Forces.
  27. Batr
    Batr 25 September 2018 08: 58
    +2
    Well, first of all, the beam width of the ROC is 0,7 degrees. For an independent search, you can use a wide beam of 1,4 degrees, but only for search.
    Secondly, the main target tracking is in the MHI mode (as the author calls the sinusoidal mode), in which the target tracking is in speed (main) and in the corners.
    Thirdly, indeed, the seeker has a mode of permitted search for a target by speed after the start, and this is the most frequently used mode, but ... in order for the seeker to capture (re-lock) the target after the start, the target MUST BE LIGHTED by the ROC. As soon as the target illumination disappears and the "Prolongation" mode is not enabled, the missile, after an unsuccessful search for the seeker (after all, it is allowed) will go to self-destruction.

    Why am I all this ...
    It is clear that a tragedy occurred, our people died, a blow was struck to the country's prestige, but IMHO this does not give us the right to hush up the reason for this tragedy. In my opinion, this is the lack of interaction in the air defense groups (ours and Syrian) and, most importantly, the extremely low preparation of the combat crew of K-9 and K-2. K-9 (Control and Target Distribution Point) sees what purpose the ROC accompanies.

    At the briefing, a scheme was presented, according to which the IL-20 and F-16 were in the line of sight of the missile-target at the COURSE. Even if we assume that the indicator of the capture operator was clogged with interference (broadband? Narrowly targeted? Leading in speed?) Neither the ROC nor the GOS could re-capture the target in principle, since oncoming speeds. If the courses were parallel, this could happen, but ... The signal from the F-16 on the guidance indicator is a single "stick", and the signal from the IL-20 with 4 motors is a huge "comb" for the entire indicator from turboprop frequency harmonics ...
    Those. neither the capture operator nor the shooting officer, nor the K-9 operator could not see that they were accompanying the wrong target, clearly not a fighter.

    Unfortunately, in the S-200, as well as in the S-125 and S-75, the human factor as a result of combat work is of great importance. This was the cause of the emergency over the Black Sea. And there was also two hundred.
  28. Cop
    Cop 25 September 2018 10: 29
    -2
    1. Tactical maneuvering of the parties before the disaster:
    The GBU-39 gliding bomb is intended only for hitting ground targets with predetermined coordinates and poses no danger to aircraft.
    This is what you are for? The Jews did not intend to bring down anyone, it was not for this that they flew out.
    ... EW, and the power of the EW transmitters would not be enough to suppress the radar of the Syrian air defense system if the F-16 came closer.
    Yes? But does the power of the EW transmitter not increase as it approaches the target?
    At this time, the Il-20 received a command to land, but for some reason did not immediately execute it, but flew past the Khmeimim airfield in a southward direction. Further, he undertook a completely inexplicable maneuver and began to unfold towards the sea, and approached the Israeli group for 30 km.
    Yes, he just came in for a landing from the sea, following the previously received order. So everyone does in order to avoid defeat from MANPADS from the ground.
    It follows that the statement about the desire of Israeli aircraft to hide behind the IL-20 is in clear contradiction with the scheme of General Konashenkov.
    It is only in your head such a contradiction. And General Konashenkov justified everything very logically. Once again, carefully look at his scheme.
    It follows from the diagram that, on the contrary, the Il-20 wanted to scout the composition of the Israeli group.
    What the hell is he? Nearby is the entire high-altitude target detector from the S-400.
    2. Features of the functioning of the air defense missile systems with missiles with semi-active guidance
    .... and all aircraft maneuvers do not go unnoticed.
    This is if EW is not turned on. And he was turned on. What for?
    2.1. Features of the functioning of the ROC

    However, if the commander of the Russian Orthodox Church decides that he does not have enough time to clarify the range of the target, he can immediately turn on the continuous mode, hoping that approximate data on the range of the target to aim at the target is enough.
    What did you want from him? After all, he quite rightly believed that a second strike was planned.
    2.2. Features ZUR

    If during the guidance of the SAM, the speed of the target being fired and the speed of any other target falling into the backlight beam will be the same, then the SAM will be aimed at the one whose signal is more powerful.
    Not only. The same thing will happen when goals are set to go. Which actually was.
    3. Reconstruction of the IL-20 defeat scenario
    3.1. Tactical Reconstruction
    ..... they were guaranteed to be detected by a surveillance radar.
    And so what? They were in international airspace. There who just does not fly.
    It is hardly capable of suppressing the surveillance radar with interference from the F-16.
    And he didn’t have to do it. He had to disguise the plane itself.
    It follows from this that the division commander had clear information about the fact of the start of the attack.
    Yes, if you follow your logic, the division commander should have blamed everyone who flies in international airspace.
    Therefore, the decision to maneuver the IL-20 towards the sea can be explained only by illiteracy of command ...
    This is the result of misinformation on the Israeli side and your fantasies.
    3.2. The author's version of events
    .... he did not receive signals from these targets, since the F-16s turned on jammers.
    They turned on the jammers after the impact, having previously built a whatnot. Moreover, they did it deliberately so that the Syrians would definitely find them.
    Such a large power of the reflected signal, no interference emitted from the F-16, could not suppress. Therefore, the GOS missile launcher, having received a powerful signal, began to be aimed at him, which led to the defeat of the IL-20.
    Not only, as soon as the marks from Il-20 and F-16 at the ROC 5N62 merged, the GOS 5V21 was aimed at the nearest target.
    This situation could have been avoided.
    This situation could have been avoided if the F-16s, having fired, had gone towards Cyprus, for example. But no, they did everything so that this tragedy would have happened.
    4. findings
    The conclusion of Mr. Gorbachevsky is very simple: the state of Israel quite consciously committed a provocation against the state of Russia. And in my opinion this is a war crime, the perpetrators should be punished to the fullest extent of Russian laws. And you, Mr. author, seem like the same radar development engineer as I Maya Plisetskaya.
    1. Navigator Basov
      Navigator Basov 13 October 2018 20: 35
      0
      Quote: Cop
      But does the power of the EW transmitter not increase as it approaches the target?
      The power of the transmitter is determined by its characteristics, and not by the distance to the target. I’ll also tell you a secret: when you get closer to objects, they do not increase in size by themselves, they only seem bigger for you in the future. And the sounds do not become louder when approaching, but you just start to hear them better.
      1. Cop
        Cop 13 October 2018 23: 45
        0
        Quote: Bass Navigator
        The power of the transmitter is determined by its characteristics, and not by the distance to the target ...
        Yes? And I always thought that power is one of the characteristics of a transmitter along with, for example, a range ....
        Quote: Bass Navigator
        I’ll also tell you a secret: when you get closer to objects, they do not increase in size by themselves, they only seem bigger for you in the future. And the sounds do not become louder when approaching, but you just start to hear them better.
        How much new I have learned from you ..... It turns out that there is no attenuation in nature, and transients depend solely on ...... the subjective perception of a person ..... and my hearing turns out to improve as I get closer to its source .. I’m starting to hear better ... laughing
  29. Imobile
    Imobile 25 September 2018 10: 29
    +1
    According to now refined data, information about the raid was transmitted at 21.39-21.40 minutes. Missile hit in our IL occurred at 22,03. Therefore, all the talk that we did not have enough time to notify the IL does not withstand any criticism.
    Oh, and you are not familiar with our MO. We don’t have a single system where the data is online (I’ve talked about this many times). We have a soldier (gunner, tankman, pilot ...) who does not know the situation. How is the exchange? The Israelis are calling us, we are calling further down the chain. if in this chain, someone went to the toilet, on vacation, to sleep ... then the search for ways (sometimes just waiting) begins to convey information. There are no Syrian air defense in this chain, even most of our military are not included in this chain. It took us at least a month to go through the entire chain, half an hour was clearly not enough. So this will always be repeated until the management system changes. The rudiments of this were, but it does not work at all.
  30. gregor6549
    gregor6549 25 September 2018 11: 59
    +1
    Again and again we are trying to replace the lack of knowledge with an excess of enthusiasm, burrowing into the details sucked from the finger.
    The game that is currently taking place in Syria is very complex with the explicit or implicit participation of many players, including Syria, Russia, the United States, Great Britain, France, Iran, Turkey, Israel, Hezbollah, Saudi Arabia, ISIS, the Syrian opposition, Kurds and other different "Swedes". It is even difficult to list all of them. The interests of these players are usually not advertised and, as a rule, do not coincide, including the interests of Syria and Russia.
    In words, Syria seems to listen to the advice of Russia, but in reality this is far from everywhere and not always. Russia cannot be considered an ally of Syria in the full sense of the word.
    Yes, Russia has its own interests in Syria and, above all, in the presence of the bases of its aircraft and naval ships to ensure its presence in the Mediterranean. But this does not mean that Russia is ready to defend Syria in any situation.
    Russia doesn’t want to quarrel with Israel either for a variety of reasons.
    Therefore, on the one hand, those in power in Russia want to show their people that they, the authorities, are doing everything to shorten the "impudent" Israel, and on the other hand, they make it clear to Israel that everything is not so scary and you never know what happens in the zone where hostilities are underway.
    The fact that the explanations of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and Israel do not coincide is also understandable, since the Russian Ministry of Defense must somehow justify itself before the citizens of Russia and explain that the "insidious" Israelis are to blame for everything, and at the same time take the thunder and lightning away from Syria, after all, after all, the Ally, after all, was a pretty penny so it is not necessary for everyone to know. Israel, too, somehow needs to justify itself to the world for its jambs. Again, Russia has a serious reason to finally sell the S300 long promised to Syria and cut down unnecessary extra money. The benefit of this sale looks very dubious, since by the way the Syrians use the C200 one can judge how much success awaits the C300 in their very skillful pens. In addition, the well-known sale to the staff of the C300 PMU in the early 90s means that both Shataty and Israel have long studied the strengths and weaknesses of the C300 and most likely developed a set of measures (technical and tactical) to maximize the effectiveness of the C300 if it is used against their Air Force. Yes, Israel will have more trouble, but it is unlikely that it will give up the more serious danger for it - the appearance of Iranian and Hezbollah formations armed with the latest Iranian and Russian weapons at their borders.
    In my opinion, more confidence in this conflict is still caused by the explanations of the Israeli leadership, which took unprecedented steps in its practice by commanding its Air Force commander to Moscow with all his (and not only his) data on the incident, including those obtained with satellites of different states that monitor the area very closely
    And the last thing. We have seen and heard more than once the clumsy and hasty explanations of the USSR Ministry of Defense and then Russia regarding a variety of incidents, including the downed Malaysian liner over Donetsk. After all, what kind of "reliable" versions were not voiced, including that the liner was shot down by the Ukrainian SU 25. And then these versions quietly died and were replaced by other no less "reliable".
    It may not be necessary in every such case to rush to "cough", but to wait until the comprehensive investigation of the incident is over. After all, even the reasons for the disasters of passenger aircraft in zones where there is no war are sometimes investigated for years, and then nothing really is known, and the conclusions have already been announced to the whole world. You wouldn't have to change them later for something else.
  31. MrFox
    MrFox 25 September 2018 16: 00
    0
    "it is not equipped with its own jammer, but is directed to the signal reflected from the target"

    What kind of jammer should be in the rocket ??

    there should have been - Is it not equipped with its own radar probe signal transmitter?
    1. aagor
      26 September 2018 00: 10
      0
      You are right, this is a typo. Author
  32. MrFox
    MrFox 25 September 2018 16: 24
    0
    Quote: Imobile
    We don’t have a single system where the data is online (I’ve talked about this many times). We have a soldier (gunner, tankman, pilot ...) who does not know the situation.


    This seems to be the main reason: there is no situational awareness when all the data is gathered together and presented at the center that makes the decision. For example, in the Link16 NATO tactical communications system, the real-time display of the Syrian air defense missile systems, the location and track of our Il, F-16 tracks, and missile trajectories — information collected from all radars, including those equipped with a secondary channel, could be seen in real time . Accordingly, it was possible to quickly navigate, and not turn the TA-57 knob and ask who flew where.
  33. alexsipin
    alexsipin 25 September 2018 16: 45
    0
    Thanks for the adequate article. Finally, people with common sense were found.
  34. alexsipin
    alexsipin 25 September 2018 16: 56
    +1
    The incident when the plane was sent into the air defense fire zone is very reminiscent of the scene from the movie "Turkish Gambit", when Russian troops were sent into an ambush with a false encryption code. It’s for rent that a Cossack woman is sitting at the Russian headquarters, and counter-intelligence is not blowing, shows the level of Syrian air defense personnel.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 25 September 2018 22: 09
      -1
      Quote: alexsipin
      It seems that a Cossack has settled in the Russian headquarters, but counter-intelligence doesn’t blow

      You would have come up with something smarter, since you so want to smear the Israelis for their provocation.
  35. Compasure
    Compasure 25 September 2018 20: 03
    +1
    that in air defense systems with a firing range of 300 km

    at the beginning of the shelling the Russian Orthodox Church irradiated four F-16s, it didn’t receive any signals from these targets,

    After these words qualification Andrei Gorbachevsky, radar development engineer causes strong doubts. For the range of the S-200 complex (from 160 to 300) depends on the modification of the complex (you can see it on Wikipedia), and the Russian Orthodox Church, as far as I know, is the Russian Orthodox Church, and not the target radar. wink
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 25 September 2018 22: 07
      +1
      Quote: Compasure
      After these words, the qualification of Andrei Gorbachevsky, a radar development engineer, raises serious doubts.

      I think that this is an ordinary circus-war silk-finder who imagines that he knows everything, like the biologist Felgenhauer, who has become a "military expert".
    2. samaravega
      samaravega 26 September 2018 16: 22
      +1
      I am compelled, dear Alexander, to refer you to more reliable sources than "Wikipedia". On several sites that provide literature in electronic form (for example, twirpx, Litress, etc.) you can find books published by the USSR Ministry of Defense (I hope you will understand that the Ministry of Defense is the Ministry of Defense, not Little Donkeys), such as manual for the operation of the S-200 complex, options for using it and upgraded samples and other interesting documents. After reading this literature, you will understand that only a layman can decipher the ROC as a Russian Orthodox Church, and for a specialist connected with air defense issues, the ROC is always a target illumination radar, incl. in many modern complexes, including the famous "Patriot". Target illumination radar is the amateur's term. By the way, I recommend reading "Wikipedia" more carefully. Even from it it is clear that the range of the S-200 complex of various modifications did not depend more on the properties of the rocket as an aircraft, but on the guidance system consisting of the ROC (already indicated that it was), and the seeker (seeker, not "gnomes themselves inflate "), which in the specified special literature is referred to as" radio vision ".
      Sincerely.
      1. Compasure
        Compasure 26 September 2018 20: 47
        0
        When I received the military specialty of the AKIPS operator of the S-200 complex, the radar for target illumination was NEVER called the ROC, so you should not teach me how or what is called in the S-200).
        And about "gnomes" and "donkeys" - this is for you in kindergarten, in a teenage group))
        1. samaravega
          samaravega 2 October 2018 10: 48
          0
          Good afternoon, Alexander! I would very much like to clarify when and where you received the military specialty of the AKIPS operator of the S-200 complex, tk. in the textbook of the military publishing house of the USSR Ministry of Defense dated 1969 under the title "S-200 anti-aircraft missile system" in the figure shown on page 7. No. 1 (!) "Structural diagram of the S-200 air defense missile system", such an element as the ROC is indicated twice (!!): "the apparatus cabin of the ROC (K-2)" and "the antenna post of the ROC (K-1)". I will not cite excerpts from the text of the textbook, sorry for the time. I suggest you make a further excursion through this textbook and other literature of the USSR Ministry of Defense on your own, since you have not finished your studies, I will send a list of terms you misused in relation to the S-200 separately. Not a single kindergarten has a "teenage" group, unless they have created one for you.
  36. Old26
    Old26 25 September 2018 21: 59
    -1
    Quote: ccsr
    Based on your logic, if a stoned drug addict drives into another car in a car, and it flies out "towards" from the impact and collides with your car, in which, God forbid, someone suffers, then the drug addict will not be to blame, but the car that drove into yours. And the automaker will be found guilty. Originally, you will not say anything.

    No need to juggle. For the second time, the S-200 missile is retargeting for a completely different target, which has a more powerful signal. Is it not enough to use this complex more carefully?

    Yes, it’s clear that it’s long-range, but it’s also clear that it has its drawbacks. And in the area of ​​Latakia, which was hit by anti-aircraft systems enough. The path is not the last generation, but there are
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 26 September 2018 10: 47
      0
      Quote: Old26
      For the second time, the S-200 missile is retargeting for a completely different target, which has a more powerful signal.

      You really are so naive, and you don’t understand that if we didn’t follow the Israeli lines and put the S-300, then there simply wasn’t such a situation. The Syrians are armed with such junk only because we went to meet those who do not deserve it. Now Putin will quickly fix this mistake.
      1. samaravega
        samaravega 26 September 2018 15: 59
        +2
        Unfortunately, Putin is not able to really strengthen the air defense of Syria by supplying them at least S-300, at least S-400, at least Su-57. It is not complexes, not tanks, or ships that are fighting. People are fighting. And with this, the Syrians, judging by the events of the entire civil war, are not bad, but very bad. In the air, the Russian Aerospace Forces, aviation of the USA, England, France, cruise missiles from the ships of the above countries. On the ground, PMC "Wagner", military police (???) of the Russian Federation, troops of the IRGC of Iran, "Hezbollah", special forces of the Russian Federation, the USA, England, Kurds, the Turkish Armed Forces. Where is Assad's Syrian Arab Army? If people do not want to fight, put them at least 100.000 terminators, there will be no sense.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 26 September 2018 21: 22
          0
          Quote: samaravega
          Unfortunately, Putin is not able to really strengthen Syria’s air defense by supplying them with at least S-300, at least S-400, at least Su-57. They are not fighting complexes, not tanks, not ships. People are fighting.

          In this case, you are mistaken, if only because the Syrian officers have traditionally studied in the USSR and in Russia, and therefore they are not so unprepared to not master the new complex within a few weeks or months, taking into account its new capabilities. In the meantime, they will master it, our specialists can help them in the conduct of combat duty at these complexes as command personnel.
          1. samaravega
            samaravega 28 September 2018 07: 56
            +1
            In general, Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners trained and served in the USSR, and firing was carried out in a much more relaxed atmosphere, but instead of a target they shot down a passenger Tu. And the qualifications of the Syrian anti-aircraft gunners are clearly visible from the number of Israeli aircraft shot down by them, which strike at Syria for a long time and regularly. As for the duty of our command staff, firstly, there is already certain it, someone has restored Syrian air defense to at least the current level, and secondly, I fear for our military personnel - the Israelis have repeatedly proved that they can destroy any anti-aircraft complex located at the Arabs. I have to repeat myself - people are fighting, no technology can replace competent preparation and conduct of combat, real combat readiness and motivation.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 28 September 2018 10: 40
              -1
              Quote: samaravega
              In general, Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners trained and served in the USSR, and firing was carried out in a much more relaxed atmosphere, but instead of a target they shot down a passenger Tu.

              This just proves that if the Israelis had not carried out a provocation, having gone closer to the Il-20, then there would have been no death of our plane. After all, what happened over the Black Sea was practically repeated - the rocket went to a larger target.
              Quote: samaravega
              I fear for our servicemen - the Israelis have repeatedly proved that they are capable of destroying any anti-aircraft complex located at the Arabs.

              This is not so at all - it all depends on their losses, which was clearly confirmed during several Israeli-Arab wars.
              Quote: samaravega
              I have to repeat myself - people are fighting, no technology can replace competent preparation and conduct of combat, real combat readiness and motivation.

              Everyone knows this alphabet. But do not forget that technical superiority in the modern world, when there are contactless clashes, is decisive in the confrontation. And no matter how superb you can handle small arms, you can hardly defeat those who will destroy you with the help of aviation. This is also the ABC of military science.
              1. samaravega
                samaravega 2 October 2018 09: 03
                0
                Before writing that over the Black Sea "the rocket went to a larger target", read the materials of the IAC commission, which were investigating this disaster, available in the open press. From the conclusion: "The defeat ... of the SBI1812 anti-aircraft missile was ... the result of the missile operator pointing at an incorrectly identified target." Here I agree with you: the same thing happened in Syria. The S-300 will not save you from misidentification of the target. As for "their losses", I did not understand you. Whose "them" - Israelis, Arabs or ours? In all Arab-Israeli wars and conflicts, from 1956 to 1982, the Israelis successfully suppressed or destroyed the Arab air defense system. Few of our troops have died in the West Bank of the Suez Canal during the low-intensity war of attrition? Want more? Go to Syria! As for small arms and aviation, I will not give you the alphabet of military science during the Vietnam or Afghan wars, an example is closer: our aerospace forces could have turned the tide of the war in Syria, if not for hundreds of soldiers of the so-called. "PMC Wagner", as well as still nowhere specified number of special forces, military police, etc. on the ground? Take away the "friendly" fire of the Syrians and the "stab in the back" of the Turks and look only at the officially recognized MO losses. Where more died - in the air or on the ground? Nobody takes into account the "Wagnerians". And only "great" politicians and players of "roaming", "strategies", etc. can seriously talk about "contactless" clashes.
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 2 October 2018 10: 32
                  0
                  Quote: samaravega
                  read the materials of the IAC commission that investigated this disaster, available in the open press. From the conclusion: "The defeat ... of the SBI1812 anti-aircraft missile was ... the result of the missile operator pointing at an incorrectly identified target."

                  First of all, the IAC is not specialists in the air defense of the Russian Ministry of Defense, so do not drag in here something that does not reflect the true information about the incident, which is reflected in the official documents of the Ministry of Defense.
                  Secondly, representatives of the IAC do not launch such missiles at the training grounds, and therefore they cannot always understand how this really happens in life.
                  You apparently do not take this into account, and in vain do you think that their report fully reflects the picture of what happened. Your version that the Ukrainians specifically aimed the rocket at a civilian plane, based on a passage from your text, does not impress me - I think that the sloppiness of the leaders of the exercises played a big role there.

                  Quote: samaravega
                  S-300 will not save from incorrect identification of the target.

                  Why did you get this if Shoigu said that our aircraft will have an identification system?
                  Quote: samaravega
                  In all Arab-Israeli wars and conflicts, from 1956 to 1982, the Israelis successfully suppressed or destroyed the Arabs air defense system.

                  Leave these tales to inexperienced people - their victories were paid for by shot down Israeli planes. So if everything was as you describe, then there were not so many Arab-Israeli wars during this time. Although I have no illusions about the Arab soldiers - they are too illiterate to confront the Israelis.
                  Quote: samaravega
                  could our aerospace forces turn the tide of the war in Syria, if not for hundreds of soldiers of the so-called. "PMC Wagner", as well as still nowhere specified number of special forces, military police, etc. on the ground?

                  How could they, if all the Western bastard did not squeal, and did not prevent us from dealing with ISIS. What the fuck Wagner can use a high-tech weapon - are you out of your mind?
                  Quote: samaravega
                  And only "great" politicians and players of "roaming", "strategies", etc. can seriously talk about "contactless" clashes.

                  You are a big eccentric, and you don’t know that the experience of the Americans in the first war in the Gulf and the NATO in Yugoslavia was studied in detail by military specialists, and even then it became clear to everyone that they had abandoned military operations involving large contingents of ground forces. However, you are too far from military science to conduct a serious conversation with you on this subject.
                  1. samaravega
                    samaravega 2 October 2018 19: 53
                    +1
                    Bring the official documents of the Ministry of Defense, if you have read or seen them, and also "tie in" those documents that, in your opinion, reflect the "true information". I recommend that you carefully read at least what they write to you. I have not written anywhere that "the Ukrainians deliberately aimed a missile at a civilian plane," on the contrary, I cited an excerpt from the IAC report, where it is written that the civilian plane was hit by a calculation error, due to incorrect target identification. As for the "fairy tales" about the destroyed or suppressed air defense of the Arabs - give the facts. And of the "so many" Arab-Israeli wars, cite at least one in which the Israelis were saved from defeat, because Arabs in each of them were saved by the USSR with the threat of direct intervention. As for the Western bastards and "Wagnerians", I wrote not about the use of high-tech weapons by them ("Wagnerians"), but just about the fact that without their "low-tech" AKs and PCs, no "high-tech" weapons in Syria helped. You have not answered about the special forces, military police and other ground units of the RF Ministry of Defense, which, even according to official data, suffered much greater losses than the Aerospace Forces. What did Shoigu say, let’s leave it on his conscience, on the IL-20, and so there was "friend or foe", helped a lot? By the way, what about training on the S-200?
                    1. ccsr
                      ccsr 2 October 2018 20: 15
                      -1
                      Quote: samaravega
                      Provide MO service documents

                      Your question once again convinced me of your complete inadequacy. Although your reception is clear to me - you essentially cannot correctly object to me that those who served you believe that you demand in advance that NOBODY will present to you.
                      Quote: samaravega
                      because Arabs in each of them saved the USSR by the threat of direct intervention.

                      Worthless to Israeli analysts who could not foresee such a variant of events. The myth of their mental abilities is greatly exaggerated.

                      Quote: samaravega
                      You never answered about the special forces, the military police, and other ground units of the RF Ministry of Defense, which suffered, even according to official figures, much greater losses than the airborne forces.

                      These are the costs of any military operation. In order for our troops not to die, we must smash ISIS with high-tech weapons. But the Americans and the Israelis prevent us from doing this by arranging planned provocations, as a result of which the IL-20 with the crew died.
                      Quote: samaravega
                      By the way, what about training on the S-200?

                      Ask better who will sit behind the control of the S-300 complex so that the Israelis do not experience illusions.
                      1. samaravega
                        samaravega 2 October 2018 21: 25
                        0
                        You have not answered the question of where and when you were taught to be an AKIPS S-200 operator. I am indicating to you a specific document in which in 1969 the Russian Orthodox Church stands for target illumination radar, and not as a "Russian Orthodox Church." I can cite a list of other military textbooks, up to the 1986 edition, where the ROC, specifically in relation to the S-200, is deciphered precisely as a target illumination radar. If I point out to you your incompetence and inability to confirm your words with documents that are freely available - this is inadequacy, I agree, only from whose side? Regarding "Israeli analysts," "the costs of any military operation," "smashing with high-tech weapons," I suggest you try for yourself how it looks on the "ground." I went through this in the North Caucasus. By the way, the word "provocation" is correctly spelled provocation. Good luck in the "teenage" group.
  37. ccsr
    ccsr 25 September 2018 22: 04
    0
    Cherry nine,
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    FGP and Korean pilots are not two regiments of the regulars that you write about.

    How do you know how many air squadrons, batteries and air defense divisions participated in the war in Korea, Vietnam, or in Egypt and Syria? Maybe you should not give out your speculation for the truth?
  38. Larum
    Larum 26 September 2018 09: 06
    0
    Have we ever mentioned the number of missiles fired?
    From enemies - about 100 like. On the card with С400 - pcs. 5-6 orange marks ...
    Is there more precisely?
  39. samaravega
    samaravega 26 September 2018 15: 44
    +2
    Good afternoon! Finally, there was at least one person who quite correctly pointed out that the S-200 missile defense system has a semi-active seeker and, by definition, can only hit the target that is illuminated from the "ground", by the way, with a very powerful target illumination radar (ROC ). After the delirium that the Israelis, who were closer to the Russian Orthodox Church and at a lower altitude and range, "covered up" the IL-20, and especially after the delirium, the missile captured a target with a much higher EPR (i.e., the IL-20), Konoshenkov should resign, because, I repeat, the S-200 missile "captures" only the target that is "highlighted" from the ground, the EPR of the target itself "on the drum", the "capture" of the target by the ground ROC is important. , the Syrian was mistaken, who directed the illumination radar to the target, the Israelis had nothing to do with it. Who doubts, remember the story of the interception of the Tu-154 over the Black Sea by the same S-200 of the Ukrainian Armed Forces of Ukraine. The story is one to one: due to an error in the calculation of the S-200 missile intercepted a high-altitude long-range target instead of a low-flying near one. If I, a retired major, know these things, how can an acting general not know them? Another heinous lie.
    I offer my deepest condolences to the families of those killed on the IL-20. All of them are competent and courageous servicemen who have fulfilled their duty. No vile and stupid mistakes and miscalculations of the top leadership of the country and the Defense Ministry will ever be reflected in their blessed memory.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 2 October 2018 21: 49
      +1
      Quote: samaravega
      No vile and stupid mistakes and miscalculations of the top leadership of the country and the Defense Ministry will ever be reflected in their blessed memory.

      What exactly do you see in this case the miscalculations of the country's top leadership?
      What specific blame lies with the top leadership of the Defense Ministry, if it implements the decision of the government and judging by the results achieved in the defeat of ISIS, it did not so badly fulfill the task.
      You’re more specific about presenting a list of their mistakes so that everyone understands how much more talented you are.
      1. samaravega
        samaravega 3 October 2018 20: 52
        0
        I list the errors that lie on the surface, the most egregious, that came to my mind immediately, without a detailed analysis:
        1. The downed Su-24 was not even equipped with ASO fire cartridges, although the blocks for their launch are installed on these machines at the manufacturing plant. Surely "Birch" on it "squeaked" with terrible force, but the trap blocks were empty, the F-16 knocked it down with a primitive "sidewinder" with IR seeker.
        2. The Mi-8, which flew to save the crew of the Su-24, was not covered by attack helicopters, as a result of which it was destroyed from an RPG (!) On the ground, and the marine was killed. Forgot completely Afghanistan and Chechnya.
        3. Several spetsnaz officers were killed and wounded on the ground while targeting aircraft. "High-tech extermination"? Whom are we exterminating? Your specialists?
        4. Helicopter Mi-35M (Export version Mi-24VM) was shot down by fire from the ground. Again saved on "traps".
        5. Tu-22M2 bombers from the Mozdok airfield were repeatedly used to strike ground targets. In addition to the demonstration of cool cruise missiles, they were often bombed with an ordinary "cast iron". One flight of a flight of these aircraft from Mozdok to Syria and back costs as much as the pension of all North Ossetian pensioners for a year. Cruise missiles are even more expensive. It is not known who they struck there, but apparently not very well, tk. without "Wagner" and special forces on the ground was not done (see the list of losses).
        6. An Il-20M electronic reconnaissance aircraft, stuffed with expensive equipment, with a crew of 15 well-trained specialists (each one is also not cheap to train) was sent 20 minutes after the Israeli Air Force raided the danger zone, failing to get an anti-aircraft fire from the Syrians, seeing on the survey the radar of the S-400 complex, that Israeli planes did not return to the base and a second strike is possible. Apparently, I really wanted to get specifics on guidance systems for planning UAE, as well as REP facilities. Received.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 3 October 2018 21: 29
          0
          Quote: samaravega
          1. The downed Su-24 was not even equipped with ASO squibs, although the units for their launch are put on these machines at the manufacturing plant.

          This is the personal fault of Shoigu and the General Staff - do you have to understand your complaints?
          Quote: samaravega
          2. The Mi-8, which flew to save the crew of the Su-24, was not covered by attack helicopters, as a result of which it was destroyed from an RPG (!) On the ground, and the marine was killed. Forgot completely Afghanistan and Chechnya.

          The blame for the General Staff is obvious to you - this operative duty officer on the General Staff did not give instructions for which helicopters to cover.
          Quote: samaravega
          3. Several spetsnaz officers were killed and wounded on the ground while targeting aircraft. "High-tech extermination"? Whom are we exterminating? Your specialists?

          Your denseness is simply amazing - all special forces, from the very beginning, know that they have very little chance of surviving on a mission. They are specially prepared for this, so do not smear snot, but just talk with those who serve in the special forces and they will popularly explain to you what for what, and why they consider themselves "suicide bombers".
          Quote: samaravega
          4. Helicopter Mi-35M (Export version Mi-24VM) was shot down by fire from the ground. Again saved on "traps".
          5. Tu-22M2 bombers from the Mozdok airfield were repeatedly used to strike ground targets. In addition to the demonstration of cool cruise missiles, they were often bombed with an ordinary "cast iron". One flight of a flight of these planes from Mozdok to Syria and back costs as much as the pension of all North Ossetian pensioners for a year.

          Have you decided to cry to the kindergarten teacher? Well, if it was decided to provide assistance to Syria, then they use what is, and not what may appear sometime. Well, about the fact that our pilots worked out real combat missions instead of training targets, you probably don’t know. Or do you think training bombing is much cheaper?
          Quote: samaravega
          An electronic reconnaissance aircraft Il-20M, stuffed with expensive equipment, with a crew of 15 well-trained specialists (each one is also not cheap to train) was sent 20 minutes after the Israeli Air Force raided the danger zone,

          Our plane took off much earlier, and the Israelis said too late where they would bomb - did you even read the discussion on this topic?
          In general, I conclude - you really don't know nifiga, and all your sobs from the desire to show your "concern", although none of your accusations deserves attention.
          1. samaravega
            samaravega 4 October 2018 20: 36
            0
            Thank you, after the words about the "death row" I understand everything. Sit on your couch and beat yourself up as a great military expert as much as you want. I "worked" with our GRUs in the Caucasus, cool guys, none of them considered themselves a suicide bomber and was not going to die, and their commanders took care of their guys more abruptly than the general military and air chiefs, so they planned everything carefully, prepared well and acted successfully. If you do not know that training bombing is carried out with practical bombs and, by definition, is several times cheaper than combat, then talking to you further is a waste of time. Good luck.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 4 October 2018 21: 28
              0
              Quote: samaravega
              -1
              Thank you, after the words about the "death row" I understand everything.

              Nothing is clear to you, because they will not let you in on the threshold of the headquarters of the Special Forces brigade without the permission of the district intelligence chief.
              Quote: samaravega
              I "worked" with our GRUs in the Caucasus, cool guys, none of them considered themselves a suicide bomber and was not going to die,

              Well, yes, they will pour out a soul to some unknown frame — so I believed. By the way, do you even imagine the depth of intelligence for the Special Forces brigade?
              Quote: samaravega
              If you do not know that training bombing is carried out with practical bombs and, by definition, is several times cheaper than combat, then talking to you further will waste time. Good luck.

              Your denseness just rolls over, because you do not know that the resource of an airplane is consumed equally during training bombing and during combat, and fuel is also consumed in large quantities. But this is not enough, because you do not know that ammunition is periodically refreshed in warehouses, and in order not to be sent for disposal, it is much better to use them against a real enemy, which reduces overall costs.
              Learn materiel ....
  40. please
    please 26 September 2018 16: 58
    0
    "Radar designer" and "test pilot of unmanned reconnaissance aircraft" (there was such a joke in the Air Force at the end of the 90s), in my opinion, one field is a berry. Outright lies, misinformation, non-professionalism, the desire to raise the rating on the "grief" of the event give rise to such things.
    I put the article "+" and if the article came from a representative of the Moscow region, this whole situation would have a completely different look. In other things, reality does not tolerate the subjunctive mood, what happened and what happened.
    How will the background of comments change when fragments of the side are raised and information about the damaging elements is published?
  41. Dron_sk
    Dron_sk 26 September 2018 18: 23
    0
    They talk a lot about cause and effect relationships. Like the root cause of the IL-20 crash are Israeli fighters who attacked targets in Latakia. Others argue that the root cause is the inconsistency in the actions of the Russian command, which sent the Il-20 to that area, and the Syrian crew of the S-200, which fired in that area, and the crew of the S-400 that observed the whole picture of what was happening, but did not affect situation, and before that the Jews raided Syria.
    I want to draw attention to the deeper root cause of what is happening - the history of the creation of the state of Israel. After the Second World War, the world community (except for its Muslim part), headed by the USSR and the USA, decided to divide Palestine into two separate states - Arab and Jewish. Thus, Jews were given the right to create their own state. Was this true after all that they experienced during the Jewish Catastrophe of the Second World War, after all the persecutions that they experienced in previous centuries in different countries of Europe? In my opinion, yes it was fair. We may not like a single person or even a whole people for something, but everyone has the right to life and to his own home. So the Jews have the right to live, have their own home and their own country, where they can come and where no one will ever blame them just because he is a Jew. Ok, the USSR advocated the formation of a Jewish state and handed over to the Jews old weapons and equipment with which the Jews defended the independence of their state in the first Arab-Israeli war. Although then even US Secretary of State Marshall did not believe in Israel and convinced Truman that millions of Arabs would defeat thousands of Jews.
    But already in 1953 the USSR broke off dip relations with Israel and from then on the USSR began to actively supply arms to Egypt and Syria. The USSR insisted that the Arab countries engage in dialogue with Israel, but the Arabs flatly refused to engage in dialogue with the Jews. How was it possible to insist at the same time that the Arabs begin a dialogue with Israel and at the same time supply them with weapons? By supplying weapons to the Arabs, the USSR clearly did not contribute to the friendly disposition of the Arabs, but rather encouraged their disposition to throw Jews into the sea. And it was these deliveries that led to the six-day war, because Egypt and Syria have accumulated strength and believed in themselves. It was these supplies that led to all subsequent Arab-Israeli wars.
    That is, at first the USSR voted in the UN for the creation of Israel, then it began to supply weapons to the Arabs in order to destroy Israel. This, to put it mildly, is not consistent.
    And all because of what? Why did the USSR begin to arm the enemies of the Jewish people, the people who fought with us against Nazi Germany? And all because the Jews chose the democratic path of development, not communism. Did the Jews become our enemies overnight because of this? In fact, no, they did not. But the party believed otherwise, at that time the main feature that distinguished the enemy from the friend was ideology. Even if you do not show aggression and are not even capable of this aggression, but you like democratic bourgeois ideas, then you are an enemy. In this sense, the USSR, in relation to Israel, was not better than the same USA, which by force imposed and is imposing democracy around the world. In addition, there was not a single chance to persuade Arab Muslim countries to communism due to their religion, but we still supplied them with weapons just to "resist the bourgeois West" in the person of little Israel.
    In Korea, the communist forces were stronger. And there were much more Koreans supporting communism than Koreans supporting other ideas. Everything went to ensure that this country became communist. But there the forces of the United Nations and the United States landed and began to exterminate the Korean people in order to force democracy on them. The decision to send Soviet pilots and other contingents there was correct so that they would fight there against the Americans, who flew with impunity and destroyed the Korean people.
    In Vietnam, the USSR again fought against the American troops, which destroyed the population of this poor country. That war for the Union again had a righteous goal - to protect the friendly people from destruction by the bourgeois hegemon.
    That is, in the Korean and Vietnamese wars, the USSR was a party to good, opposing the American forces of evil, trying to force and mass destruction to persuade peoples to their own path and subjugate. But in the Arab-Israeli conflict, the USSR took the side of evil, which was trying to throw the little Jewish people in the sea suffering. In Vietnam and Korea, Soviet pilots shot down American pilots who were aggressors and invaders, and in 1972 the USSR sent Soviet pilots to Egypt to shoot down Israeli pilots who defended their country.
    In Korea and Vietnam, Soviet troops defended against the annihilation of Koreans and Vietnamese. And in the Arab-Israeli conflict, the aggressors helped kill Jews.
    1. Dron_sk
      Dron_sk 26 September 2018 18: 39
      0
      I read somewhere recently that among the Israelis the word "Briton" has an abusive meaning. But the Russians in Israel are still treated normally, despite the fact that we have been selling (and often even simply giving away for free) weapons to their enemies for more than half a century. This is because many of the Jews, including Lieberman, lived in the Soviet Union, remember how friendly Soviet people were for the most part and remember who saved them in the Second World War. But already in the next generation or in one generation, all this can be forgotten and we will get another Russophobic state.
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 26 September 2018 21: 29
      +1
      Quote: Dron_sk
      In Korea and Vietnam, Soviet troops defended against the annihilation of Koreans and Vietnamese. And in the Arab-Israeli conflict, the aggressors helped kill Jews.

      Your propaganda material has nothing to do with the tragedy with the IL-20. As for the Israelis, they are not so white and fluffy - maybe you do not know how they attacked the nuclear center in Iraq, although Iraq did not bomb Israel then.
      1. Dron_sk
        Dron_sk 27 September 2018 15: 53
        +1
        I know very well about this attack fact. As well as about the fact that in 1972 they shot down 5 of our fighters and our pilots died. As well as about the fact that in 1982 the Jews destroyed almost all Soviet air defense systems in Lebanon and dozens of our troops were killed. And about how they destroyed the building of the Soviet embassy in Beirut the same year with an armored personnel carrier and set up an open restroom there, while the Soviet consuls were sitting there in the basement. And about the fact that in 1983 they sent a sabotage detachment to avenge our calculation of the S-200 for their downed fighter and a dead pilot, but then the Syrians who were guarding ours were stopping them.
        But I'm used to seeing the root of the problem. And all that I wrote is not propaganda, but in order to point to this root All the Arab-Israeli wars and everything that is happening there now is the result of what happened then at the dawn of the formation of Israel as a state in the late 1940s and in The 1950s, this is the result of the fact that the USSR and the USA did not want to act together, although together they voted for the formation of Israel. And if they voted together, they should have and together ensured the implementation of that UN resolution. Both the USSR and the USA knew how Arabs were aggressive towards the Jewish state. Therefore, they had to put pressure together with ultimatums and sanctions so that they recognized Israel. Under the pressure of the two superpowers, without weapons and without money, the Arabs would much more quickly accept that that piece of land now belongs to the Jews. The United States and the USSR together could generally resolve any conflict in the world, but because of hell of ideological considerations and contradictions, they did not do this, but did the opposite - they fired wars to annoy the ideological enemy and prevent his influence in a particular region of the world.
        But now that root of the problems has been forgotten and all the parties there act only on the basis of the current situation, responding to the opponent’s move.
        And now, step by step, that conflict is still developing. And it will continue to develop for a long time, apparently. Because Assad will not expel Iran from its territory, because it will greatly weaken its position and simply because Iran is a fraternal state for Assad, which is especially valuable because Assad has almost no other allies. And Israel will not calm down while there is Iran in Syria. And the United States and NATO, too, will not calm down until they remove Assad. After the downed IL-20 and putting on duty, the S-300 will not be calmer there, different incidents and provocations will follow, and everyone will try to somehow respond to the opponent. And so, step by step, step by step ... No one is going to unravel the tangle. So everything will depend on how far the parties are ready to go.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 27 September 2018 18: 57
          0
          Quote: Dron_sk
          . As well as about the fact that in 1982 the Jews destroyed almost all Soviet air defense systems in Lebanon and dozens of our troops were killed.

          But you are lying brazenly, if only because in Lebanon everything was not so:
          On the night of June 9th-10th, under the leadership of Soviet specialists, the Syrians launched a powerful artillery counterattack on the advancing group. He inflicted heavy losses on the enemy. An unprecedented tank battle has begun since World War II.
          The tanks of the Israeli army failed to break through the Syrian defense immediately. Blitzkrieg choked barely.
          By the morning of June 11, the Israeli offensive was stopped on the entire front.
          Syrian aviation destroyed 23 aircraft, another 27 shot down ground-based air defense systems (although the Syrians themselves lost 70).
          Syrian ground forces destroyed 160 tanks, 10 artillery and missile batteries.

          https://balanseeker.livejournal.com/779456.html
          Quote: Dron_sk
          Because Assad will not expel Iran from its territory, because it will greatly weaken its position and simply because Iran is a fraternal state for Assad, which is especially valuable because Assad has almost no other allies.

          This is a personal matter of the Syrians, and if you do not like Iran, then this is your problem. But the Israelis will pay dearly for our downed IL-20 - this is obvious, without any tangle.
          1. Dron_sk
            Dron_sk 27 September 2018 21: 07
            0
            But you're lying brazenly, if only because in Lebanon everything was wrong

            Before accusing me of lying, you would read again what I wrote ... I wrote that Israel destroyed most of the air defense systems in Lebanon. And even in the article to which you refer, there is mention of this, although the article is written by the same cheer patriot as you, who see only victories and do not see defeats:
            "Gathering all the aircraft in a fist, Israel destroyed the Syrian anti-aircraft missile systems in the Bekaa Valley."
            You can read more about these events on Wikipedia in more detail and more objectively:
            https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Операция_«Медведка_19»
            And so in what I "blatantly lied". The fact that most of the air defense systems in Lebanon were then destroyed? Ok, then write how many air defense systems were in Lebanon before the start of the first Lebanon war and how many of them remained after. Just give dry numbers so as not to be unfounded and links to sources. Or do you want to say that none of the several thousand Soviet contingents died in that war?
            And also think about why in recent years Israel prefers to deliver most of its strikes against Syria from Lebanese territory. Because there is no air defense left. And if it does, no one else feels the desire to shoot Israeli planes from there. Therefore, Israel feels at home in the Lebanese sky. And this is the result of the first and second Lebanese wars. And of course, "everything was not so in Lebanon" ...
            if you do not like Iran, then this is your problem.

            Here again slander. Where did I write that I do not like Iran? In terms of Iran’s confrontation with the United States, I’m on the side of the people of Iran and I think it’s right for Russia to support and arm Iran so that it can repel American aggression and not turn it into Iraq. Although I read that in Iran, people are far from being as friendly towards Russians as in Syria, for example, anti-Russian slogans are often heard at demonstrations. And of course, I cannot approve of terrorists from this country who committed terrorist acts at different times, and militants who helped the Mujahideen in the Afghan war. Plus, I do not approve of the calls of their leadership to destroy Israel. Here, many ask the question, why if Israel attacks the bases of Iran, then why do not we attack the NATO bases near our country. And all because Iran called for the destruction of Israel and still has not abandoned this idea. If the official leadership of any Poland openly declared that it wanted to destroy Russia, would we really have a different reaction to their military bases near our country? We all perfectly understand against whom these NATO bases are directed, but at least NATO does not show the frank aggression that Iran showed against Israel.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 28 September 2018 10: 31
              0
              Quote: Dron_sk
              And all because Iran called for the destruction of Israel and still has not abandoned this idea.

              And in Israel they did not refuse to build Great Israel, which will include the land from the Euphrates to the Nile - and what should its neighbors think about it? Or they have already abandoned this idea - enlighten ...
  42. Prism40
    Prism40 27 September 2018 17: 27
    0
    Adequate rating!
    The Arab primacy, specially trained (by developing a conditioned reflex) to press the START button, did its job. The guilt of the Israelis is not in doubt !, - they were obliged to cover up a Russian plane!, - this was shot at them !, - so not fair !!!!!!!
    And the Syrians have nothing to do with it - in general!
  43. ccsr
    ccsr 28 September 2018 10: 28
    0
    Quote: Dron_sk
    I wrote that most of the air defense systems in Lebanon, Israel then destroyed.

    You're lying because you wrote:
    As well as about the fact that the Jews in 1982 destroyed almost all Soviet air defense systems in Lebanon and dozens of our troops died.

    There were no Soviet air defense systems in Lebanon, because Syrian air defense fought there.
    1. samaravega
      samaravega 3 October 2018 20: 56
      0
      Enlighten the near, what kind of air defense systems do the Syrians do themselves?
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 3 October 2018 21: 34
        0
        Quote: samaravega
        Enlighten the near, what kind of air defense systems do the Syrians do themselves?

        Do not dodge - by indicating the word "Soviet" you meant crews and equipment, and this is a lie, because they were not in Lebanon, they were Syrian. Moreover, Syria and Lebanon bought weapons not only from the USSR.
        1. samaravega
          samaravega 4 October 2018 20: 09
          0
          It was your "horses, people", the word "Soviet" was not used by me, I just ask you to decide: if the equipment was produced in the USSR, but delivered to another country, is it no longer Soviet? What nonsense?
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 4 October 2018 20: 40
            -1
            Quote: samaravega
            if the equipment was released in the USSR, but delivered to another country, is it no longer Soviet?

            After that, Soviet technology belongs to another state, not the USSR. And it can even fight against our army, as was the case with our equipment, which went to the finals after the Finnish war in the form of trophies.
  44. Azis
    Azis 29 September 2018 19: 59
    0
    The article is actually a duplicate of the same author dated 26.09.2018/147507/20 (https://topwar.ru/2309-il-2409-analiz-brifingov-mo-XNUMX-XNUMX.html).
    At least some kind of analysis of the situation and the conclusions of an outsider is interesting.
    According to the "briefings" (is there a short and capacious Russian synonym?) Of the Moscow Region, more questions arise than the answers were given:
    - Why doesn't the MO office publish its own animation materials shown at the "briefing", but only "YouTube" recordings of the "briefings"?
    - how, indeed, the IL-20 - the RER aircraft was near the attacking / escaping Israelis, why was it not taken to a different, safe course with the start of the Israeli attack or after it when firing SAR air defense?
    - in the Ministry of Defense there are no specialists capable of preparing high-quality material for "briefings"? And in the pictures of the indicator of the Russian radar, it would be desirable to interpret all the targets, otherwise the Israeli "indiscriminate firing of the air defense of the SAR" is confirmed

    Although, of course, we will patriotically stick to the official version, without any.
    To the author, rather than questions, but comments:
    -
    ...Missiles...not equipped its own jammer...
    SAM jammer?
    - There is no need to kick the "presenter" in Konashenkov's studio especially. He himself is an ex-air defense officer, and he is not the author of that "blizzard that carries" (C) VVP ...
  45. sergei28
    sergei28 29 September 2018 22: 39
    0
    Recall a computer game issued by the Russian Ministry of Defense for the video.
  46. sergei28
    sergei28 29 September 2018 22: 44
    0
    The airbase with our VKS is very close, and the C100500 there are vaunted. Cunning asses crept treacherously, without warning for a day, otherwise they would be thrown with hats.
  47. sergei28
    sergei28 29 September 2018 22: 48
    0
    Syria's oil war continues
  48. ont65
    ont65 30 September 2018 01: 32
    0
    In fact, without receiving guidance guidance information, the rocket retains its trajectory given by the last command, if there is no calculating predictive device. Under such conditions, it is quite possible to inflict a missile on a missile to capture another target; it is enough to work out the appropriate maneuvers in the group.
  49. ccsr
    ccsr 2 October 2018 21: 32
    0
    samaravega,
    You have not answered the question of where and when you were taught to be an AKIPS S-200 operator. I am indicating to you a specific document in which in 1969 the Russian Orthodox Church stands for target illumination radar, and not as a "Russian Orthodox Church."

    How did you get the idea that I was studying for a radar operator? Moreover, I didn’t tell you anything about the Russian Orthodox Church. It looks like horses and people have mixed up in your head from overexcitation. You’ll be more careful when you want to impress someone with your knowledge.
  50. ccsr
    ccsr 2 October 2018 21: 40
    +1
    Quote: samaravega
    Regarding "Israeli analysts," "the costs of any military operation," "smashing with high-tech weapons," I suggest you try for yourself how it looks on the "ground." I went through this in the North Caucasus.

    And you seriously think that your participation in the hostilities in the North Caucasus against the militants gives you the right to teach those who know and understand military science more than you do? I went through this when some participants in the Afghan war suddenly imagined that all the military power of the USSR armed forces was being held against them. That was their big mistake ...
    1. samaravega
      samaravega 3 October 2018 21: 06
      0
      Do you know and understand military science? Sorry, somehow I didn't think about your feedback. Judging by your phrase about "militants" in the North Caucasus, you have a "couch" idea of ​​this. There was a war between the regular army and the regular army, with all the attributes. By the way, you have avoided the question of ground operations and losses in Syria. Do not fit into "high technology"?
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 3 October 2018 21: 43
        0
        Quote: samaravega
        There was a regular army war with a regular army, with all the attributes.

        It's okay to lie - a regular "army" without aircraft, air defense systems and short- and medium-range missile systems.
        You will rub your bikes into the kids - I was at the trophy exhibition in 1995, so I don’t have to ride on my ears.
        Quote: samaravega
        By the way, you have avoided the question of ground operations and losses in Syria. Do not fit into "high technology"?

        Once again for the gifted - we do not fight against the Syrian army and do not destroy this state, i.e. war in the sense that military experts understand this does not happen, as was the case in Iraq or Yugoslavia, for example. Therefore, we chose the tactics of the police operation, which is why we are sitting at the bases, and do not use ground forces as it should. What is not clear to you here? And there are always losses - even in exercises. Do you even know how many soldiers died in the Soviet Army for various reasons to speculate on this now?
        1. samaravega
          samaravega 4 October 2018 20: 23
          -1
          You personally may be sitting at the base, but the special forces officers and PMC soldiers, judging by the losses, spend a lot of time in the "field". I am glad that you were at the exhibition of trophies, only I collected them. So who is "rubbing in" and to whom is a big question. And about the lack of aviation, air defense and missile systems - look at the official chronicle of the losses of the Russian army, at least aircraft and helicopters. They had anti-aircraft guns, and MANPADS, and "grads", and ATGMs, and a well-thought-out fire system, incl. artillery, and air defense system. While talking about the sectors of fire, cards of fire, transfer and concentration of fire, about that. that retreat is a difficult maneuver for such a great military specialist like you - a waste of time. I just ask you to be easier about "lying" and "rubbing."