Myths about the origin of Ukraine and the Ukrainians. Myth 2. Polish name: Ukraine

128
For nations seeking to preserve their past, the name of the country always reflects history its origin and age-old traditions, passing from generation to generation. What, then, is the state of Ukraine claiming in this sense?

Myths about the origin of Ukraine and the Ukrainians. Myth 2. Polish name: Ukraine




A mass of historical documents have long been proven that this word originated from the “outskirts” of the Russian and Polish lands. But the Ukrainian state-sponsors strongly disagree with this. According to their version, it was invented by illiterate Great Russians to humiliate the great Ukrainian nation, and the word "Ukraine" consists of the word "kra", meaning steppe, and the word "ina" is a country. Therefore, Ukraine is a “steppe country”. The most "svidomye" generally believe that it means "principality", and the term "Oukraina" is a self-name of the territory.

And yet: how and when did the word "Ukraine" appear?

"Oukrainymi", "Ukrainy", "ukrainymi" in Russia from 12 to 17 century called the various border lands. Thus, in 1187, Pereyaslavl “oukraina” is mentioned, in 1189 Galician “oukraina”, in 1271 Pskov’s “Ukraine”, in 1571 Tatar “Ukraine”, “Kazan Ukraine” and Ukrainian people. In the 16 century documents speak about “Ukrainian service” , and in the 17 century the “Ukrainian cities of the wild field” are mentioned and the word “Ukrainian” began to denote the lands of the Middle Dnieper region.

The Polish sources also mention the border "places and towns of Ukraine", "Ukraine Kiev", "Lyakhov Oukrainyane", "lords of the governor and the elders of Ukraine".

There was no ethnic nuance in both Russian and Polish naming. This concept was purely toponymic, indicating the geographical location of the area. That is, the word “Ukraine” as a common noun, in the sense of borderlands, was known both in Russian and in Polish and has been used in them for a long time.

After the Union of Lublin 1569, with the inclusion of Kyiv and Bratslav voivodships in the crown Polish lands, they became the new Polish borderland and gave birth to a new generalized name as “Ukraine”. This name did not become official, but, having become entrenched in the use of the Polish gentry, it began to penetrate into clerical work as well. By the middle of the 17 century, the word Ukrainians began to call the Polish gentry in Ukraine by the word "Ukrainians". So the crown hetman Potocki in 1651 calls them "Panov Ukrainians".

Despite the political division of the people of Russia, its ethnic unity continued to persist, which did not suit the power of the Commonwealth. The Poles decide to take measures to divide the unity of Russia at the conceptual level, the papal envoy Antonio Possevino proposes in the 1581 year to call the south-western Russian lands "Ukraine".

A new toponym begins to take root in clerical work and gradually, in the workflow of documents, instead of the concept “Russia,” “Ukraine” appears. So, from a purely geographical concept, this term acquires a political meaning, and the Polish authorities, through the Cossack sergeant, who received mainly Polish education and is striving to become a new gentry, are trying to introduce this concept into the masses. The Little Russian people categorically rejects the identity being imposed, and after the Pereyaslav Rada, the “Ukrainian” terminology in the ethnic sense goes out of use.

It remains geographically understood, so the word "Ukrainians" applies to service people of the Sloboda Ukraine, and from 1765, the Kharkov province even bore the name of the Sloboda Ukrainian province. During this period, the word "Ukrainians" is used in relation to the Little Russian Cossacks, that is, the Cossacks, military people of different parts of the Little Russia, came to be called "Ukrainians".

But the Polish concept of replacing Russia with “Ukraine” did not die and reaches its logical end in the 19 century. Polish propaganda writer Count Jan Pototsky publishes in Paris in 1796 a book called Historical and Geographical Fragments about Scythia, Sarmatia and Slavs, outlining a fictitious concept of a separate Ukrainian people of completely independent origin.

He developed these marginal ideas of another Polish historian, Tadeusz Chatsky, who wrote a pseudoscientific work “On the name“ Ukraine ”and the origin of the Cossacks” in 1801, in which Ukrainians were deduced from the ukrov horde he had invented in the 7th century because of the Volga. On the basis of these opuses, a special “Ukrainian” school of Polish writers and scholars appeared, further promoting the fictitious concept. Then they somehow forgot about the ukrah and remembered them only after more than two hundred years, already at the time of Yushchenko.

Fresh blood in this doctrine poured Pole Francishek Duchinsky. He tried to clothe his crazy ideas about the “chosenness” of the Polish and kindred “Ukrainian” people in the form of a scientific system and argued that the Russians (Muscovites) are not Slavs, but descendants of the Tatars, and that the name “Rus” was stolen by Muscovites from Ukrainians who the only ones are entitled to it. Thus was born the still-living legend of the bad Muscovites who stole the name of Rus.

However, all these Polish attempts are not perceived by society, and the word "Ukrainians" in literary and political works until the middle of the 19 century continues to be used in former meanings

Marginal ideas of Potocki and Chatsky found support among a part of the South-Russian intelligentsia, who founded the Cyril and Methodius Brotherhood in Kiev headed by Kostomarov. The latter proposed his own concept of the existence of two Russian nationalities — Great Russian and Ukrainian, but later revised it and noted that “Ukraine meant every margin in general and this word had no ethnographic meaning, but only geographical”.

In general, the word "Ukrainians" as an ethnonym neither in the intelligentsia, nor in the peasant environment has received wide circulation at this time. It is noteworthy that one of the most radical members of the Brotherhood, Taras Shevchenko, never used the word Ukrainians.

Later, the professor of Lemberg (Lviv) University, Grushevsky, who headed the Shevchenko Partnership in 1895 and decided to prove the existence of an independent “Ukrainian people” with Austrian money, tried to bring it all to a logical conclusion. In his pseudoscientific work “The History of Ukraine-Rus”, which caused only laughter in academic circles, he introduces the concepts “Ukrainians”, “Ukrainian tribes” and “Ukrainian people” into the historiography of Ancient Russia, and the scholarly world of that time, who “adequately” estimated it contribution to historiography, called it a "scientific nonentity."

In their political activities, Grushevsky and his associates began to actively use the word "Ukraine" only at the beginning of the 20 century in the Ukrainian Herald weekly published in 1906 in St. Petersburg and in the magazine Ukrainian Life published in 1912-1917 in Moscow .

Their efforts are spreading literature about the oppression of "Ukrainians" by Muscovites, in the books and documents the words "Little Russia" and "South Russia" are replaced by the term "Ukraine" and the already forgotten legend about the abduction of the name "Rus" by the Little Russians is thrown, left as if without a name and they had to look for another name.

After the February Revolution, with the support of Russian liberals, the word "Ukrainians" gradually began to acquire widespread circulation, first in a geographical sense, and then in an ethnic one. As an independent ethnos, the word "Ukrainians" at the official level was legalized only by the Bolsheviks, and the nationality "Ukrainian" appeared in the passport, and in Galicia this happened only 1939, at the behest of the dictator Stalin, so unloved by them.

So, the primordial nature of the concept “Ukraine” is a myth consciously introduced by the Poles into the Little Russian environment in order to split Russian unity. The ancient name of the territory of present-day Ukraine before the 17 century was Russia (Black, Chervonnaya or Small), and these names were used by all ethnic, class-professional and confessional groups living here. Having taken the place of the disappeared Little-Russian elite, the Polish gentry deliberately imposed the concept of "Ukraine" instead of the natural and historical concepts of Russia and Little Russia, and the word "Ukrainians" (from the designation of the border guards of the Moscow State) acquired the meaning of a separate Ukrainian ethnos.
Our news channels

Subscribe and stay up to date with the latest news and the most important events of the day.

128 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +11
    16 September 2018 05: 44
    Stalin I.V. in his closing remarks on the report on the immediate tasks of the party and the national question at the X Congress of the RCP (b) on March 10, 1921. stated the following: "RECENTLY IT WAS STILL SPEAKED THAT THE UKRAINIAN REPUBLIC AND THE UKRAINIAN NATION IS AN INITIATION OF GERMANS. Meanwhile, it is clear that the Ukrainian nation exists, and the development of its culture is the duty of the communists. You cannot go against history. It is clear that if the cities of Ukraine are still Russian elements still predominate, then in the course of time these cities will inevitably be Ukrainianized "- Stalin I.V. THE USSR.
    1. Cat
      +6
      16 September 2018 07: 35
      What do you want?
      At the turn of the 20s, the point of view on three fraternal East Slavic peoples prevailed: Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians. For the sake of the idea of ​​the union, the USSR and the BSSR were formed. I think that even in a nightmare, Stalin did not imagine the collapse and discord of 91 years.
      And the fact that in the territories cut off to the young republics will be ruled by small-town nationalism, Stalin's foresight did not deceive. Moreover, the process was also retroactive. Since the end of the 60s, the number of Ukrainian schools has been steadily decreasing, as parents did not consider it necessary to burden their children with "extra". So if the events of the "90s" were delayed, then ......... Alas, history has no syllabic declension.
      A similar situation had and is still tracing paper on the territory of the Russian Federation. For example, the question of the study of national languages ​​in Tatarstan, Bashkiria, Chuvashia is controversial. Where parents of children are forced to learn the language of the republic. The situation in the Sverdlovsk region looks sad and comical, where they decided to challenge the thesis of the identity of the concepts "Native language and Russian language". The situation looked even more urgent before the events in Ukraine, when in Moscow and Yekaterinburg, under the pressure of the progressive public, they tried to create "Ukrainian classes". And after all, they would have created, if not killed the idea, the fact that the parents of one "wide Ukrainian" in Moscow signed up for this experiment. In Yekaterinburg, despite the initiative campaign of the oblast ministry, they did not find any potential classmate.
      Moreover, I am a deep supporter that the child should be brought up in the socio-cultural environment that his parents choose. For example, in the territory of the same Sverdlovsk region there is a Tatar village Arakaeva (by the way, the oldest settlement in the region). Without excesses and anguish, children of local villagers study in Russian and Tatar at will. And this happens without anguish, tantrums and excesses. Even flash mobs, as is customary in Chuvashia, are not carried out. Apparently, everything depends on the traditions of education, and when they have more than three centuries of problems, they are an order of magnitude less (the oldest school, before the revolution - Mercedes).
      Sincerely, Kitty!
      1. avt
        0
        16 September 2018 12: 38
        Quote: Kotischa
        At the turn of the 20s, the point of view on three fraternal East Slavic peoples prevailed: Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians. For the sake of the idea of ​​the union, the USSR and the BSSR were formed.

        No. Palyty naive! bully
        Quote: Kotischa
        At the turn of the 20s

        Marxists of all stripes and Bolsheviks led by Ulyanov / Lenin dreamed of a World Revolution! As a result, ANY state had to be sent to the scrap. The state, as an institution of social management, simply had to be multiplied by zero. EVERYWHERE on the planet. And for this, in the specific case of R.I. , since they were still teaching the law of God in high schools, and Atez did not receive an incomplete higher spiritual education, so it was necessary to repeat the version with the Tower of Babel, but not in terms of construction, but in terms of dividing peoples into different languages. Hence the "Russian Empire-prison of peoples", from here "On the pride of the Great Russians", where it was directly indicated - to support everything and everyone, just to knock out the backbone of the STATE - a single, state-forming people, opposing it with the "oppressed" national minorities. after the Second World War, with the help of the USSR and other empires, in support of the liberation wars in the colonies of the same Angles and Franks, who REALLY sucked resources, including human resources from their colonies, Stalin, after the death of Lenin and the liquidation of Trotsky, began to build the Red Empire and even completely extinguished himself national outbursts and especially stubborn, fed by the Lyakhs through the "Promethean movement" multiplied by zero. Even the peoples repressed !. BUT! The main thing has already been done under Ilyich No. 1 - the USSR, and not the entry of the national republics into the RSFSR on the basis of autonomy and even federations! Even his idea, let's call it the Union of Autonomous Soviet Republics, Stalin could not push through after the Patriotic War. The flywheel of nationalization peoples were only unfolding, even the spells about a new community - the Soviet people, could not change anything.
        1. +3
          16 September 2018 14: 01
          To begin with, learn not to confuse anarchism with socialism.
          1. +5
            16 September 2018 17: 55
            Quote: Seeker
            learn not to confuse anarchism with socialism

            "The state is a product and manifestation of the irreconcilability of class contradictions. The state arises there, then and insofar as, where, when and since class contradictions objectively cannot be reconciled. And vice versa: the existence of the state proves that class contradictions are irreconcilable."
            State and revolution. PSS, vol. 33, p. 7.
          2. avt
            +2
            17 September 2018 07: 50
            Quote: Seeker
            To begin with, learn not to confuse anarchism with socialism.

            Study, study and study again ! Marxism properly, then honor Kropotkin, and when you realize the difference in the tactics of leading to a "bright future" in the part "Let's drive humanity into happiness" - I will talk to you as an adult.
      2. 0
        22 September 2018 16: 40
        "Since the late 60s, the number of Ukrainian schools has been steadily decreasing, as the parents did not consider it necessary to burden the children with "extra".
        What does "superfluous" mean?
      3. 0
        24 September 2018 09: 31
        Quote: Kotischa
        Alas, history has no syllable declension ... the point of view has prevailed ... the situation had and has tracing ... they tried to create ... a regional minobra ...

        And not only in these places! I have never met a more illiterate text with a claim to scientific in life!
        The gentleman or comrade who clearly does not understand anything (or perhaps a boy who has become a victim of the USE or is preparing to become), who does not know how to write correctly, most likely, grabbed quotes from articles on the internet, decided to check in! Due to blatant illiteracy, he is not even ashamed!
    2. -2
      16 September 2018 09: 54
      the leadership of Soviet Russia in the first years was almost all non-Russian, therefore they were closer to the invented "brotherhood and friendship" of fictitious peoples instead of historical truth and love for their Russian Motherland. As a result, synthetic formation - the Soviet Union turned out to be historically unstable and fictional peoples became real peoples and completely Russophobic, which apparently the first founders of the USSR were trying to achieve. As a result of a simple conspiracy of the three leaders of the republics of the USSR, and therefore Russia / Russia, they were simply divided into parts.
      If you look deep into history, then Russia / Russia was the foundation for the creation of all the countries of Europe and almost all the countries of Asia. So that Germany is all riddled with Russian toponyms, they somehow ignore it and offer TI versions, as in 9c the Germans conquered the Slavs , although Russian toponyms could not survive more than 1000 years.
      On old maps there are many Russian toponyms in France, England, Italy, all this confirms the position that Europe used to be Russian.
      1. -8
        16 September 2018 10: 33
        The article is called "The Polish name of Ukraine", but in fact, not only Poland and not so much Poland took part in the creation of education Ukraine, but in general any historical movement is someone's will, i.e. in the creation of Ukrainians and other peoples someone who is interested PERSONALLY. And these someone are the Romanovs. The Romanovs are a German dynasty, which apparently by force and cunning ended up on the throne of Russia / Russia. It is believed that the Romanovs "collected" the lands and created the Republic of Ingushetia, in fact, the Romanovs and their other European German relatives were engaged in the creation of synthetic peoples , which occupied Russian lands along the perimeter of Russia.
        These are the Baltic republics, Poland itself, Germany, the Caucasian peoples. But if you recall what the state of Austria was still in the 19th century, then 60-70% were the so-called Slavic peoples, as well as the incomprehensible people of Hungarians and Germans. Galician Russia is simply torn to pieces, extinct the whole history, destroyed the elite and turned the people of Galicia-Galov into mankurts of kinship not remembering the most ardent Russophobes. You can extend all these processes to Europe, Asia and America.
        Russia in the Balkans, which is now called Serbia, was torn to pieces in the same way, the artificial peoples of the Croats, Macedonians, Slovenes and Bosnians were created, and the Serbs themselves were simply killed by thousands of civilians as early as the 1st and 2nd centuries ... But the Serbs preserved Orthodoxy in differences from the Galicians.
        If you look at the first pages of the main chronicle of Russia / Russia, the Radzivilov Chronicle, it specifically says that all these peoples went a long time ago, from all sorts of Yaphet, Sifov, Khamov, the sons of Noah. Therefore, the chronicle itself is of course the latest notion of the Romanovs along with their fabrications about the calling of the Varangians and their attachment to modern chronology.
      2. -3
        17 September 2018 10: 49
        Quote: Bar1
        If you look deep into history, then Russia / Russia was the foundation for the creation of all European countries and almost all Asian countries.

        As well as Africa and America.
        And Antarctica.
        Penguins, too, are Russian - half a white race (in front)
        Quote: Bar1
        The fact that Germany is permeated with Russian toponyms does not pay attention to this

        Turned long before your birth. No one ever hid the fact that the southern coast of the Baltic Sea was a zone of resettlement of the Baltic and Slavic tribes, this is even in the fourth year textbook on the history of the USSR. Did not read? Did you even read the story before you opened the first book of Fomenko?
        Quote: Bar1
        as in 9, the Germans conquered the Slavs

        Would you even be interested in what science history really tells about these events? The last Slavic state formations lost their independence in the XII century - during the time of Yuri Dolgoruky. And about the Mecklenburg dynasty heard something?
        Never history has denied that part of the lands of modern Germany was previously occupied by the Slavs. But the nonsense that you carry regarding Western Europe and Asia, they say, can be traced to the Slavic or Russian trail of normal people can cause only condescending bewilderment and, at best, sympathy for a deeply ill person.
        Stop your attempts to reduce historical science to the state to which it was brought in Ukraine; there, by the efforts of local nationalist gibbons, they already counted one hundred forty thousand years of Ukrainian history - do you want to outdo them?
        Before criticizing the provisions of historical science, it would be nice to get acquainted with them, and not to take the word for phantom-scammers like your guru and his followers.
  2. +3
    16 September 2018 06: 06
    Such a time has come. If you pay, then you can distort everything that is possible and that is impossible. Complete scam and fraud in ideology and politics. Maybe this is the virus they wound up like this?
    1. The comment was deleted.
  3. +4
    16 September 2018 06: 21
    Yesterday, in a comment, I hoped that the author, nevertheless, will tell how Russian Little Russia and the Novorossiysk Territory just 80 years later, became a huge anti-Russian monster of the so-called. "Ukraine" (from the tiny territories of Khmelnytsky).

    But, as expected, not a word was said about this. Accused by the author of the Poles, they, of course, are correctly indicated, but they did not create from Russian lands the biggest European country УSSR (after Russia), and from Russian and Little Ukrainians.
    1. +2
      16 September 2018 14: 09
      Do you know, Russophobe, that the concept of "Ukrainian" like the concept of "Russian" has several meanings?
      1. +1
        17 September 2018 08: 34
        Quote: Seeker
        Do you know Russophobe that notion "Ukrainian" like notion"Russian" has several meanings?

        No, I do not speak "by concepts". lol
  4. +4
    16 September 2018 06: 38
    "Oukrainymi", "Ukrainy", "ukrainymi" in Russia from 12 to 17 century called the various border lands. Thus, in 1187, Pereyaslavl “oukraina” is mentioned, in 1189 Galician “oukraina”, in 1271 Pskov’s “Ukraine”, in 1571 Tatar “Ukraine”, “Kazan Ukraine” and Ukrainian people. In the 16 century documents speak about “Ukrainian service” , and in the 17 century the “Ukrainian cities of the wild field” are mentioned and the word “Ukrainian” began to denote the lands of the Middle Dnieper region.

    Some Ukraine was even on the Kola Peninsula - it was called Ukraine Terskaya (the southern coast of the Kola Peninsula) (M. Fasmer "Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language", M., "Progress", 1987, vol. IV, p. 156 -157).

    Kayan Ukraine was still south of Karelia: “And the Germans took possession of the Kayan Ukrainians” (Archimandrite Dosifey “Geographical, historical and statistical description of the Stavropegic First-Class Monastery” M., 1836, compartment I, p. 36, 38).

    In the Pskov 1st Annals of 1481, “Ukraine beyond the Oka” is mentioned, and the lands adjacent to Tula are referred to as “Tula Ukraine.” In “The Legend of the Mamayev Massacre” and in the “Pskov 2nd Annals” (1481), the so-called “Pskov Ukraine” is described. In the “City List” of 1652, the “Ukrainian” cities of Tula, Kashira, Kaluga, Kolomna, Pereslavl, Ryazan Yaroslavets and others are mentioned, a total of 37 cities (“Complete Collection of Laws of the Russian Empire”, vol. I, collection 1, p. 1649 to December 12, 1825, p. 278-279).

    In the same volume we read: “Kaluga and other Ukrainian cities” (p. 487); “In Tula and in other Ukrainian cities” (p. 489); "Ukrainian Sev cities"; “Ukrainian Polish cities” (p. 582); “Residents of Little Russian cities come to the Moscow state and to Ukrainian cities” (p.973). Ukraine was in other Slavic states, for example, in Serbia, the city of Biagrad - the capital city of Toya of Ukraine is described (Historiography of the Beginning of the Name, Glory and Expansion of the Slavic People, St. Petersburg, 1722, p. 56).

    By these small examples it is clearly seen that in Russia there were many “OukrAin”. But over time, some terms become obsolete and disappear, others replace them.
    1. -1
      16 September 2018 11: 59
      In vain you are spreading this, there will be territorial claims on these lands.
  5. +11
    16 September 2018 07: 07
    In Odessa, I will tell you over the past 4 years there have been so many Ukrainian speakers! Earlier it was possible to hear surzhik in the vicinity of the station and on Privoz, but now it is full of Western speech! so the southeast is no longer waiting for the liberation of the campaign .. you just have to leave this matter of time for us to finish ourselves here .. difficult situation
    1. avt
      -1
      16 September 2018 08: 37
      Quote: mashinist
      In Odessa, I will tell you over the past 4 years there have been so many Ukrainian speakers! Earlier it was possible to hear surzhik in the vicinity of the station and on Privoz, but now it is full of Western speech!

      request Odessa slept through its chance when it was possible with the help of Transnistria to really turn the tide. Instead of solid, concrete actions, a senseless standing on the notorious "Kulikovo field", which could not but end in brutal reprisals. Local hucksters stupidly poured out protest, like Kernes in Kharkov. Now they make "South Truskavets" out of it - everything is logical, as since 1991 Kiev has been populated by Raguli.
      1. +1
        16 September 2018 08: 48
        I misunderstand something, see. Doesn't everything go according to plan? Should Odessa not become North Jerusalem, and Ukraine Khazaria?
        1. avt
          0
          16 September 2018 08: 59
          Quote: Karenius
          Shouldn't Odessa become North Jerusalem,

          Wai Mae ! Don't worry like that. We already have in the Moscow suburbs the New Jerusalem of Lesha, the Quietest, and Nikon, laid down and recently restored. By the way! When you puff up, it’s clever to portray how
          here, for some reason, they are embarrassed to say that Andropov / Liberman
          That at least a search engine would work or something. It’s not God knows what a secret - Andropov’s surname is from his father.
          1. +1
            16 September 2018 09: 04
            According to his affairs, he is definitely Lieberman.
        2. +1
          24 September 2018 00: 49
          Kosher do not. There are few Jews in Odessa. But Dnepropetrovsk-may well become the capital of the new Kaganate. And the name he has is very pretentious - dipr, with a hint of mastering the entire basin of this river.
      2. +5
        16 September 2018 10: 04
        I, as someone involved in some way, will say that no one had a chance initially, Donbass seceded solely because of your help, but it wasn’t in Kharkov and Odessa, and initially no one was so decisive here, because in the best of times, up to 5 thousand people from one millionth city gathered on Kulikovoye, here many have long considered themselves Ukrainians
        1. -1
          16 September 2018 11: 43
          Odessa to separate after the Bandera survive from the city of local Jews - Russophobia.
          1. -1
            16 September 2018 11: 59
            Quote: Operator
            Odessa to separate after the Bandera survive from the city of local Jews - Russophobia.

            Who are the "Bandera"? Aren't they the ones in the service of the Kolomoisky? So, rather ... the Jews are driving everyone out of Odessa ...
            1. +1
              16 September 2018 12: 00
              Bandera in Odessa are visitors from Western Ukraine.
              1. -1
                16 September 2018 12: 14
                Well ???
                As the Jews defeated the Black Hundreds in the Republic of Ingushetia, they will be able to today's banderlog, which today are just clowns and just for bluffing and dust in the eyes write about the first toast for the Holocaust.
                ___
                My friends had occasion to fight with them (this is a special officer of the 50s) and go to their gathering in a den in Lviv in 77 (and this was a sidekick from among the most cruel bloodsuckers of the enemy). So, it was only the special officer who pointed out their "solidarity and spirit" against everyone, but the sidekick says that it’s only work for a day to slaughter them, since this is just a rabble of out-of-date junkies.
                1. 0
                  16 September 2018 12: 46
                  After Bandera revolution in Ukraine, several million people enrolled in Bandera - you will not cut everyone.
                  1. -4
                    16 September 2018 12: 56
                    These are fairy tales ... Only a few rule, the rest are much more passive ...
                    It’s like a crime ... Back in Soviet times, Nazarbayev stated that the Kazakhs began to put locks on the doors of their houses only after the Russians appeared there. After separation, when purulent power disappeared, he remembered about it, and began to bury this crime in the ground ... helps a lot. Now, perhaps, in an orderly order, it will prohibit locks on doors. To the peak of Putin, this can easily be organized.
                    1. +2
                      16 September 2018 12: 58
                      Do you believe that there is no crime in Kazakhstan? laughing

                      Before the Russians arrived in Kazakhstan, the Kazakhs were nomads and lived families in the steppe in separate camps, when any stranger was still visible on the approach for several kilometers.

                      It is interesting how, according to Nazarbayev, a castle can be hung on the canvas covering of a yurt (cut by any piece of iron)? laughing
                      1. -4
                        16 September 2018 13: 11
                        Look at the pictures of Astana !!!
                        And he transferred the capital to free officials from dumbbell in Alma-Ata ... I there in the 92nd participated in one war for Ak Lada, I saw all the crime ... I could only clear it with a clipping, and he probably did it .. The feeling of a statist in him sits tight. By the way, he sent his messengers to Armenia to recruit pro ... From the conservatory to the nuclear scientists ...
                    2. 0
                      20 November 2018 22: 24
                      :
                      Quote: Karenius
                      After separation, when purulent power disappeared, he remembered about it, and began to bury this crime in the ground ... It helps a lot.

                      Tales of old Ashir do not need to be told ...: lol
                  2. +4
                    16 September 2018 14: 17
                    There were millions of party members in the USSR, but were there many Communists among them?
        2. avt
          +1
          16 September 2018 12: 20
          Quote: mashinist
          Donbass seceded solely because of your help

          Donbass and Lugansk received
          Quote: mashinist
          because of your help
          solely because, one hundred contrary to the local "elite" mainly consisting of "regionals", who BETRAYED their own at the gangway in Kharkov, when Ssynukovich was still there and was ready to legitimize a Crimea-like decision, solely because he took up arms. Well, really cocky guys. Are you in Odessa
          Quote: mashinist
          and initially no one was so determined

          so there is no reason to blame the mirror. Do not understand who you will be dealing with for the whole 26 years of being "independent"? Not our problem, but your problem. So you will get "Nizhniy Truskavets" instead of Odessa and be glad that it is not Khadzhibey.
          1. 0
            16 September 2018 15: 45
            Listen up! The fact that Odessa has become Ukraine for more than 100 years (and all subsequent problems associated with this) is yours, not our fault! Crimea did not have time to assimilate and you returned it, and my parents and grandparents already taught that they were Ukrainians, although my grandfather was 25 years old. Yes, and it’s important for you to return the ancestral lands, but for now, you are only following the path of independence from our pipe and import substitution ... and who will have an incentive to Russia’s expense if your general standard of living has not gone far ..
            1. avt
              +3
              16 September 2018 16: 57
              Quote: mashinist
              Crimea did not have time to assimilate and you returned it, and my parents and grandparents already taught that they were Ukrainians, although my grandfather was 25 years old.

              Oh well .
              Burgomaster I was taught that way.
              Lancelot. All were taught. But why did you turn out to be the first student, a kind of cattle?
              Quote: mashinist
              and who will have an incentive at the expense of Russia if your general standard of living has not gone far ..

              bully From whom ? from your present in ruin? bully In Sakharovo, in the Moscow region, your lucky guys in the FMS are a cant on the fishing line. Must have no longer wanted to live in the European standard of living. bully You can't get out of the metro to "Anino" quietly - Tajik taxi drivers call in the early morning to the FMS center.
    2. BAI
      -1
      16 September 2018 11: 18
      but now it’s full of Western speech!

      Julia Vityazeva from the News Front has an article on this subject - on the transformation of Odessa into Banderstadt.
      1. +1
        18 September 2018 22: 28
        Quote: BAI
        about the transformation of Odessa

        Odessa survived so much, and the siege of the Anglo-French fleet, and 1 MV, and the Civil, and the occupation by the Entente, and the seizures / departures of the Bolsheviks, nationalists, then the USSR, then the defense and underground, now Ukraine and the "hybrid war with the Russian Federation" ...
        They go to Odessa just like in KIEV - salaries and vacancies, by the way there are few Westerners, since it’s easier for them to go to Poland, but from the regions (they are usually surzhik and Ukrainian). And nothing, digest them. Odessa is a good melting pot. At all times.
        But the "Russian world" which is now in ORDiLO is worse than Ukraine at times. Living in a gray area with no hope ... that's bad. It's even worse to realize that the Russian Federation itself is using you against Ukraine because it is necessary. But the goal itself (to enter the Russian Federation even by washing or skating) was seemingly tangible.
        In general, we do not need such an advertised "Russian world" which is still on our screens and messages.
  6. The comment was deleted.
  7. -3
    16 September 2018 07: 14
    I read the article and I think: why all this set of words?
    1. avt
      -1
      16 September 2018 08: 39
      Quote: rumpelshtilskin
      I read the article and I think: why all this set of words?

      Don’t take it to your head, and don’t fast here - ride with a zip-lock - “Htoneskachet toymoskal! LiveBelarus! "
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. 0
        22 September 2018 08: 45
        To hint a person that he is a fool is regarded as rudeness and disrespect.
        But “forgive me!”, How can you respect a person who builds his participation in a discussion on demagogic methods?
    2. 0
      16 September 2018 09: 08
      (I think: why all this set of words?) And what did you think of?
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. 0
        22 September 2018 08: 54
        This is what I thought of: the national question is a very "delicate matter". And if for me personally this question is purely academic in nature, then for some people this question is a matter of life and death.
        And when the author, clearly not owning the question, admits it is possible to give provocative assessments of events, it is only the action of transferring the totality of waste products and undigested food and animal remains that are released into the environment from the distal end of the intestine during the act of defecation on a device that serves smth. ventilation or I can’t call it air flow enhancement :)
  8. 0
    16 September 2018 09: 18
    Everything is much simpler. The root of the word "ukraine" is the land from the Polish language - the native land. On the maps, Sloboda Ukrainian, "Ukraine" was written in Latin with a capital O or U, it would be read as a suburb or akraina.
  9. -2
    16 September 2018 11: 35
    The Mordechaists / Blanquists consistently implemented their project to destroy national states - the creation of another International in 1919, the reformatting of the federal RSFSR into the confederal USSR in 1922, the policy of indigenization in the national republics, the announcement in 1961 of the formation of a supranational community "Soviet people".

    On the other hand, there was a natural counter-process of consolidation of the Russian nation, which ended in 1991 with the exit of the RSFSR from the Soviet confederation and the creation of a nation state, where the titular nation constitutes the vast majority.

    As a result, ballast was dropped from the republics of the Baltic states, Transcaucasia and Central Asia. Russia got the opportunity to carry out reindustrialization at the expense of funds that had previously been spent on feeding the Balts, Caucasians, Central Asians and Ukrainians.

    Now the main thing for us is to fully support the process of de-industrialization in the former Soviet republics: stop all transport connections with the Baltic countries, import migrant workers from Central Asia, economic relations with Georgia and Armenia, economic assistance to Belarus and economic relations with the rest of Ukraine.

    Thank God that this process fully supports the majority of the population of the former Soviet republics: apartheid towards Russian speakers in the Baltic states, the spread of radical Islamism in Central Asia, the aggression of Georgia, the western orientation of Armenia, the Chinese orientation of Belarus and the Bandera revolution in Ukraine.

    Now is the time to start the process of economic development of these countries (artificially stimulated during the existence of the USSR).
  10. 0
    16 September 2018 12: 40
    But Russ - German (Scandinavian) name. Russia - Greek form. So what? Hang us out now?
    1. -4
      16 September 2018 12: 52
      Russia - from the Slavic Rus (river, riverbed): the name of the West Slavic tribe Rus, who lived in the VI-IX centuries in the lower reaches of the Neman in the territory of the present Kaliningrad region (Porus).

      Russia is the name of the country, not the geographical term "outskirts".
    2. avt
      +2
      17 September 2018 07: 56
      Quote: M. Michelson
      Well, Russia is a Germanic (Scandinavian) name.

      bully Which forum members ordered this wedding march?
      Ruthenia (lat. Ruthenia) - one of the medieval Latin names of Russia,
      Even in the periodic table by the way.
  11. -1
    16 September 2018 13: 29
    Karenius,
    The Kazakhs have a Muslim-nomadic mentality (such as North African Berbers) - no Astana will help them.
    1. -4
      16 September 2018 14: 08
      Operator, you remind me of the Byzantine emperor with your thinking that the battle of our Manazkert has profiled the Muslim rabble ...
      1. -3
        16 September 2018 14: 12
        Do not confuse the patchwork Byzantine empire with the nuclear superpower of the Russian Federation.
        1. 0
          16 September 2018 14: 14
          Do you want to say that the Russians mainly won from the collapse of the USSR?
          1. -2
            16 September 2018 14: 15
            So think me and George W. Bush bully
            1. 0
              16 September 2018 14: 18
              I thought that it would be ugly to compare you with him ... He showed himself nothing but told the truth about the kagal.
              1. +2
                16 September 2018 14: 28
                You forgot that US President George W. Bush on August 1 of the year 1991 spoke in the Supreme Soviet of the Ukrainian SSR asking Ukrainians not to leave the USSR.

                By the way, in his speech, Bush directly solidarized with Yuri Apukhtin and said the following: "Many centuries ago, your ancestors called this country Ukraine, that is," the border. " bully
                1. -2
                  16 September 2018 14: 32
                  It was not Bush’s senior middle and junior who decided Ukraine’s membership in the USSR, as well as about preserving the USSR itself, namely the Kagal people, whom he had been afraid of all his life ...
                  1. 0
                    16 September 2018 14: 38
                    Former US President Bush Sr. in the mid-2000's in an interview with an American historian explained the reason for his call for Ukrainians not to leave the USSR - according to the CIA, Ukraine was a subsidized republic and could draw on itself the resources of the RSFSR that were released after the release from the confederation of subsidized republics of the Baltic states, Transcaucasia and Central Asia.
                    1. -3
                      16 September 2018 14: 51
                      Operator, not ashamed :) to quote this cartoon character?
                      And many countries on your list are subsidized today?
                      Don’t just talk about Ukraine ... It’s intensely spread rot for everyone who is not lazy, and here you are with AVT declaring that this is not your business, but the business of the Ukrainians themselves.
                      Finally, I will tell you my opinion. The bear will wake up in 5-6 years, and will begin to correct the inaction of your today's cartoonish power.
                      Maybe I'm wrong about your kibbutz power, but my opinion sits tight in me ...
                    2. +3
                      16 September 2018 22: 20
                      an interview with George W. Bush about the collapse of the USSR and Ukraine +

                      - Mr. President, do you think that the loss of Ukraine is good for the Russians, but here is the former National Security Advisor ...

                      “Are you talking about Brzezinski?” Village politician Jimmy couldn’t distinguish an apple from a cow’s cake and therefore listened to idiots and clowns. I voluntarily resigned from the post of the Director of the CIA, so that my name would not be related to this booth later on. Brzezinski wrote that without Ukraine, Russia would never become an Empire. So it was in those days. But this is the rule of the 20-th century, and we will live in the 21-th.
                      Do you know why the Russians needed Ukraine? Then, that there the population growth is higher than in Russia itself. In past wars, Russians needed Ukrainians to have someone to throw with grenades under German tanks. Only. But as soon as they had nuclear weapons and missiles, the meaning of keeping so many hungry mouths became negative. It is easier for Russians to raise the standard of living of their Russian population, and so that Ukrainians work for them in the same way that Mexicans work for us and for us. It’s not necessary to fight a rifle and grenades in a modern war anyway. And so, they do not need a military oath of Ukrainians ... it is the collapse of the Soviet Union - this is my most important defeat. I am afraid that this is a foreign policy catastrophe, the size of which we have not yet understood.

                      - Could you develop your thought? After all, you yourself have made so much effort for the Victory over the USSR?

                      - Yes, I did, but for Victory, and not for our Defeat. The Soviet Union had a very important role for America. He had not had the military ability to defeat our country for a long time, but he could do us harm - unacceptable. And we feared him, as they feared a wild wolf, or a bear. We accustomed ourselves to monitor constipation in our home, we monitored our form. However ... Now that the Union is gone, we Americans began to forget about the danger.
                      Our people are fattening and fattening, and these are signs of our defeat. After all, the existence of the Union was beneficial for all of us, and the current situation is multiplying political risks with uncertainties and, in my opinion, is a direct path to disaster. I mean that I did everything so that the Union remained big hungry and weak. I fed him from my hand and accustomed him to my affection. There was no money in our treasury and I rendered humanitarian assistance to the Union from my personal funds.

                      - You want to say that all this humanitarian aid to Russians, all these legs ...

                      - It was all from my personal means. The Russians needed money, and I supported them as best I could. They needed food, and I ordered them to be fed from my personal means. There were people who came to share with me, but we did not spend a single cent from the federal treasury on this. Not a cent!

                      - Then I do not understand - why did you do this?

                      - Then what - “Friend in need - Friend forever” (Friend in Need is - Friend indeed). You do not understand what happened. Russia is not defeated, on the contrary - it has become very strong and we need it to be Our Friend - that is why I fed all these Russians for free. And those who defeated me only want to rob. The Russians will not forget that and someday they will send us a return account.

                      - I do not understand - why are you sure that Russia has strengthened. After all, she was just defeated ...

                      - Russia and the Union - as Matryoshka. They were nested in each other. In reality, we competed with Russia, but it was in the form of the Union, that is, it had huge kettlebells on its feet. Now these dumbbells are removed during the collapse of the Union, Russia will overcome its current problems and become much more evil and powerful, and will well remember all those who have offended it today. And I would like to be the same Friend of Russia, as I was the Enemy for the Soviets.
                      You need to bet on the best horse. Do you want to know what kind of Geary she had? This is in numbers - in the Union there were two bottomless holes where all budget surpluses flowed - Agriculture and Social Assistance. Since today's Russia may have previous incomes and not be wasted on these unprofitable items of expenditure, in the coming years it will become more powerful and dangerous than the USSR.
                      George W. Bush on the collapse of the USSR

                      - I do not understand, - why Russia will be able to cut its spending on Social Assistance and Agriculture?

                      - It's all in numbers. The main consumers of agricultural holdings in the Union were in Ukraine. Ukraine is leaving - the Russians are closing the “black hole” in the budget for subsidies for the village. The main consumers of social assistance were in Central Asia and the Caucasus. Since there is no Union, Russia, the main earner in the Union budget, ceases to subsidize its large Muslim republics. And then - arithmetic - Ukraine, Central Asia and Transcaucasia find themselves with budget deficits and plunge into the abyss of despair, Russia finds itself with budget surpluses and its treasury is larger and more powerful than the Soviet one. And then it will return with triumph and remember everything for us, and our economy already has a boundary state - zero profit. Clinton, my rival, promises to “stimulate the economy,” which means that we will borrow, and our economy is in a state where we can no longer afford borrowing. This means that our budget will be negative and over time we, as a country, will become naga and barefoot, and the Russians are rich and powerful.
                      And for the sake of Friendship with the strong and powerful - my free legs in a moment when they have nothing to eat - will bring huge dividends. And they would bring even more if I could keep the flock of our eternally hungry hyenas and jackals from robbery ... Ah, if we could keep the Union from collapsing, if it got used to our good hand and eventually became tame, like a pet dog ...
                      But nothing can be done. All these jackals themselves decide their Fate - I know Russians, they will not forgive anything, they will not forget anything
                      1. -2
                        16 September 2018 23: 21
                        It can’t even be called bullshit - as it looks more like yapping an ace ...
                        Bush was not even dedicated at the time to the plans for demolishing the USSR by the method of oil price collapse ... this was when he was still vice president. A visual representation that he was nobody there.
                        Further. It was not he who left the post of director of the CIA, it was they who pulled him out of there, stagnating ... After all, if you leave the post of director, you understand what will happen there without you, without your opposition !!! The same thing happened in rest houses - the old man sits down at the piano only so that the musician resting does not sit there :)
                        Does Bush not remind you of Gorby with his cowardice?
                        ... De Gaulle suffered the same whimpering babble in France (when the Yankees kicked the students with his kick), saying something about every nation that deserves its own power. Bullshit - people don’t have power ... there are organized groups that will always steal this power, especially if it’s a Zionist group.
                        ... We, I tell you, after our velvet revolution, shkolota has power so far, random people of random Pashinyan ... There is hope that among the security forces there will be leaders among those who were not accidentally dismissed by the previous government for their honesty and integrity. .. And then the power itself will become strong. Pashinyan said that he would not be stopped by the threat of reprisals against his family ...
  12. +5
    16 September 2018 13: 46
    Karenius,
    And we are wondering where in Kazakhstan there are so many atomicists and composers of Armenian origin? ...
    And here it is ....
    1. -3
      16 September 2018 14: 03
      And in Moscow they could see composers from Armenia ... In Gnessinka in the 90s, a musician taught jazz from here ... he sat here four times in the first year of the conservatory :) ... but not because he could not study, but because I couldn’t wake up in the morning :)
  13. -2
    16 September 2018 14: 41
    Forum users argue: "Who-Who-Who? Wherein consider the historical process in statics, trying to apply the standards of Kievan Rus to the current situation, asking questions: “Where in ancient scriptures is Ukraine? Where is Kievan Rus? ”

    And this is metaphysics. This is the wrong approach, because the world is in the dynamics of dialectical development. The world is developing, historical science is also developing, for example, ancient people lived in the Paleolithic era and did not even suspect about it, because such a name was given by historical science, which was born much later. Therefore, the name Kievan Rus in ancient writings can not be found, because this is also the result of the development of historical science.

    The peoples of the world arose during the transition from primitive communal to slaveholding and feudal society, but national ties arose when feudal fragmentation was destroyed and a nationwide market was created. Their languages ​​also developed in the course of their specific conditions, along with the development and fusion of tribal languages ​​on the territory of their lands.

    So, for example, the Italian nation arose from the Romans, Germans, Etruscans, Greeks, Arabs, etc. The German nation is from a mixture of barbarian tribes with the Romans, Celts, etc. French formed from the Gauls, Romans, Germans. The same can be said about the Russian and Ukrainian nations. Slavic tribes in Kievan Rus merged into one nation with one common language, politically united in one state, but they did not yet constitute a nation. After the Tatar-Mongol invasion, the ancient Russian state collapsed. Once a single people was divided into several parts.

    As a result, under the influence of many factors (including living in divided territories as part of different states), nationalities (Russian, Belarusian and Little Russian) appeared that were similar in language, history, character, but still different. This was facilitated by the socio-economic, political and cultural conditions in which the East Slavic lands found themselves after the collapse of the Kiev state.

    The formation of these nationalities led to the formation of independent names Great Russia (Muscovy), Ukraine (Malaya Rus), Belaya Rus. The name Ukraine first appeared in the 12th century to designate the southwestern lands, later it acquired new meaning in connection with the formation of the Ukrainian people, and became its ethnic name. In the 16-17th centuries, this name became even more popular among the people along with the ancient name Rus. From the 14th century a third term appeared, which also applies to lands (Galician-Volyn, Dnieper) - Little Russia, but it did not spread among the Ukrainian masses.

    Therefore, dear colleagues, it is time to stop arguing on this topic. Everyone needs to understand. that to unite the two, even fraternal, people on the old approaches of the times of Kievan Rus or the Muscovite state will fail. This is possible only on the principles of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, as the Bolsheviks did, they were able to collect all the former lands of the Russian Empire together on the principles of respect for the sovereignty of all nations.
    1. +2
      16 September 2018 18: 01
      Quote: Alexander Green
      Everyone needs to understand. that to unite the two, even fraternal, people on the old approaches of the times of Kievan Rus or the Muscovite state will fail. This is possible only on the principles of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, as the Bolsheviks did, they were able to collect all the former lands of the Russian Empire together on the principles of respect for the sovereignty of all nations.

      And is it that half of these same peoples before the Bolsheviks did not exist at all?
      1. -2
        16 September 2018 21: 45
        Quote: Dart2027
        And is it that half of these same peoples before the Bolsheviks did not exist at all?

        Well? Nations are constantly evolving, but they are not eternal, under socialism there is a rapprochement of nations through their development, under communism there will be no nations.
        1. +1
          16 September 2018 23: 01
          Quote: Alexander Green
          Well? Nations are constantly evolving, but they are not eternal

          Especially when they are helped by people who head the state.
          Quote: Alexander Green
          under socialism there is a rapprochement of nations through their development

          Already passed. The result was not very.
          1. -2
            16 September 2018 23: 48
            Quote: Dart2027
            Already passed. The result was not very.

            The first pancake is always lumpy. While socialism was in the country, everything was new. As soon as Khrushchev's "slush" began, problems with nations began.
            1. +2
              17 September 2018 19: 48
              Quote: Alexander Green
              While there was socialism in the country, everything was normal.

              That is, we again come to the same thing - for socialism to be necessary, for Stalin to be, but when he dies, that's all. I don’t remember how many times they came to this.
              1. 0
                17 September 2018 20: 49
                Quote: Dart2027
                That is, we again come to the same thing - for socialism to be necessary, for Stalin to be, but when he dies, that's all. I don’t remember how many times they came to this.

                And only you didn’t remember anything, I also wrote about this repeatedly. and clarified. Visit the Work Path work site for advanced training.
                1. 0
                  17 September 2018 22: 26
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  And only you didn’t remember anything, I also wrote about this repeatedly. and clarified.

                  Remember what? Was Stalin - was the USSR, with its problems, but it was. Stalin did not - the collapse began.
                  1. 0
                    18 September 2018 16: 50
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Remember what? Was Stalin - was the USSR, with its problems, but it was. Stalin did not - the collapse began.

                    Alas, I can’t help you with anything else, you only see what lies on the surface, but you don’t want to dig deeper.
                    1. 0
                      18 September 2018 19: 41
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      you only see what lies

                      On the surface lies biology. If people could build a society based on justice, then they would have built it long ago without any theories.
                      1. +1
                        18 September 2018 20: 42
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        On the surface lies biology. If people could build a society based on justice, then they would have built it long ago without any theories.

                        Biology lies in animals, and in humans - sociology.
    2. +2
      16 September 2018 19: 50
      Quote: Alexander Green
      The formation of these nationalities led to the formation of independent names Great Russia (Muscovy), Ukraine (Malaya Rus), Belaya Rus.


      Everything is exactly the opposite. The emergence of new territorial names led to the emergence of new ethnonyms. Russians who found themselves in Lithuania began to be called "Belarusians", and those who found themselves in Poland began to be called (first of all, Poles) "Ukrainians". And those who remained in Russia remained Russian.

      Quote: Alexander Green
      The name Ukraine first appeared in the 12th century to denote southwestern lands


      Not necessarily the southwestern ones, but the borderline principle, so there were many "Ukrainians". The Polish concept "Ukraine", from which the name of the state appeared, appeared in the 16th century.
      1. 0
        16 September 2018 21: 48
        Quote: Gopnik
        The Polish concept "Ukraine", from which the name of the state appeared, appeared in the 16th century.

        So what of this? This name is, and it is used by the Ukrainian people, and this is a reality from which there is no escape.
        1. +2
          17 September 2018 11: 15
          Nothing. Just do not cheat, ancient name of the state until the 12th century
          1. 0
            17 September 2018 20: 55
            Quote: Gopnik
            Nothing. Just do not cheat, ancient name of the state until the 12th century

            Nobody is cheating, you just need to read more.
    3. +1
      16 September 2018 19: 55
      Quote: Alexander Green
      as the Bolsheviks did, they were able to collect all the former lands of the Russian Empire together on the principles of respect for the sovereignty of all nations.

      Yeah, they cut off pieces of territory from Russia and created the so-called "Ukraine".
      1. -2
        16 September 2018 21: 54
        Quote: ultra
        Yeah, they cut off pieces of territory from Russia and created the so-called "Ukraine".

        So what? Cut off the territories where more Ukrainians lived, and whose economy was easier to manage from Kiev. For the USSR, this was not important; everywhere there was Soviet power. The working class, the working people, could never have imagined to begin secession from the RSFSR. This happened when, as a result of perestroika, a local neo-bourgeoisie appeared in all Soviet republics, which, in order to protect its capital and markets, tore the USSR apart.
        1. +1
          16 September 2018 23: 02
          Quote: Alexander Green
          So what? Cut off the territories where more Ukrainians lived

          And then what was a people like Ukrainians?
          1. 0
            16 September 2018 23: 50
            Quote: Dart2027
            And then what was a people like Ukrainians?

            Do you think not?
            1. +2
              17 September 2018 19: 48
              Quote: Alexander Green
              Do you think not?

              I believe that he is still gone.
              1. 0
                17 September 2018 20: 59
                Quote: Dart2027
                I believe that he is still gone.

                But 80% of the population of Ukraine considers themselves Ukrainians, regardless of how you think. The development of the Ukrainian nation has already been completed, and this is an objective reality
                1. +1
                  17 September 2018 22: 28
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  But 80% of the population of Ukraine considers themselves Ukrainians

                  Because they were 80 years old talking about it.
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  The development of the Ukrainian nation has already been completed

                  Well yes, it's over
                  1. 0
                    18 September 2018 16: 58
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Because they were 80 years old talking about it.

                    You understand that this is not so, the nation is developing on a common language, territory and psychology. By the way, there were a lot of people who wanted to unite with Russia, but after the Crimean events they were reduced.
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Well yes, it's over

                    As for your picture. I hope you understand that the picture is not the Ukrainian people, but the "elite", which is the same as in Russia. Remind you how Yeltsin danced to the German "sardine". The Russian people survived this shame, and the Ukrainian people will also survive.
                    1. +1
                      18 September 2018 19: 44
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      a nation develops on a common language, territory and psychology

                      Especially when this language is created under the leadership of the special services of another state
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      I hope you understand that the picture is not the Ukrainian people, but the "elite"
                      This picture is just Ukraine, because it was invented for this.
                      1. 0
                        18 September 2018 20: 55
                        Quote from Darth : "Especially when this language is created under the guidance of the intelligence services of another state."

                        What kind of nonsense? The Ukrainian language began to form when part of the territory of Kievan Rus was transferred to the Lithuanian principality, and then merged with Polish lands.

                        Quote from Darth"In this picture, just Ukraine, because it was invented for this. "

                        And regarding the picture, stupidity, on your part, it’s just squared. With the same success, we can say that all of Russia danced with Yeltsin to the German mute.
                    2. +1
                      18 September 2018 22: 35
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      that in the picture it is not the Ukrainian people, but the "elite", which is the same as in Russia

                      there a representative of the Cossack society gives the ambassador a saber for transmission. The memory of a glorious man, whose name is now the ship of the United States Navy (John Paul Jones - the one who died in the Sea battle movie) Cossack and warrior in the ranks of the Russian army ..
        2. +2
          17 September 2018 09: 38
          Did Ukrainians live in the Zaporizhzhya Sich, Poltava province, Kiev province, Kherson province? Do not disgrace yourself. Ukrainization began in Kharkov (the capital until 1934), it was there that groups of ukrophiles started up, and the "Ukrainian Bulletin" was also published there. And if we historically consider the territory, then the Kharkiv province lies on the lands of the Moscow principality (as you usually call it). Under Ivan 3, the Great Russians lived in Slobozhanshchina over time, settled by Cossacks (Polish Cossacks, goat root) who left the Commonwealth.
  14. +1
    16 September 2018 14: 56
    Quote: Karenius
    are many countries on your list today subsidized?

    Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Ukraine sit on EEC subsidies, Georgia on US subsidies, Belarus and Armenia on RF subsidies.

    The rest of the clothes stretch legs.
    1. -3
      16 September 2018 15: 05
      If we summarize the subsidies and look at the proceeds of the rest, it will be clear that with the continuation of the USSR everything would have paid off even without Russia.
      And the fact that Armenia is subsidized is not a fact ... We have paid for everything with you. This is if you do not take into account that the Russian Federation, having organized us on 27.10.99, planted on our neck the Zionopokolniki, who deliberately spread rot for 19 years ...
      1. +3
        16 September 2018 15: 46
        Damn, you owe Russia half a billion dollars for interest-free loans, and your anti-Zion worshiper Pashinyan asks for more - so as not to give away a billion.
        1. -3
          16 September 2018 16: 19
          My memory is already failing, much has been forgotten ...
          Putin once gave half a billion bucks to Serzhik for the social sphere in order to bring down tension in society ... for his psa ... and at such a high interest rate that, out of shame, Serzhik quickly took out a loan from the Europeans at a normal interest rate and repaid your. I want to remind you ... 15 years ago, the President of Ecuador, it seems, told the scoundrels from the IMF: "Do not offer us any more social loans, as this is bondage! If you want to help us, give loans for production ... We will not take any more social loans !!! " If a Latinos says this, then Putin cannot but understand.
          About loans for the purchase of military equipment - there is interest there.
          Soon we will try to put together an Armenian-Afghan-Indian anti-Pakistan bloc, and even so that the Chinese do not oppose - and the Armenian-Chinese ... Then we can move away from your loans for Chinese and Indian help so as not to hear your arrogance.
          1. +3
            16 September 2018 16: 43
            Fool Lukashenko has already collected Chinese interest-bearing loans worth 15 billions of dollars, which, unlike the Russian ones, must be given or declared bankrupt.
            1. -3
              16 September 2018 16: 50
              So that’s why he sells a lot of offensive weapons to our enemy ... After all, if weapons are bought beyond measure, then there should be its use ... So it turns out that in the event of our military defeat, Lukashenko will ask Aliyev to pay off his debt to the Chinese, as in gratitude for what he did in arming our enemy.
              ____
              Our situation is slightly different ... We will not accept help from the Chinese and Indians with money. :)
              1. +1
                16 September 2018 16: 54
                And what - Chinese / Indians? laughing
                1. -1
                  16 September 2018 16: 57
                  So there is a lot of this here and now .... In kind, of course, we will take, but military equipment :)
      2. +3
        16 September 2018 17: 56
        Quote: Karenius
        ... The Russian Federation, having organized us on 27.10.99, planted on the neck of the Zionopokolniki who ...

        Ai-ya-yay! Planted! Have you been in the occupation of Russia?
        1. -4
          16 September 2018 18: 16
          This can be projected on your example ... how would you wish the Russians to once again be in power with the bald foreigner with Trotsky and Sverdlov.
          1. +1
            16 September 2018 18: 58
            Wish a bad neighbor? Did your dad and mom teach you this as a child?
            1. -4
              16 September 2018 19: 08
              That's it !!!
              And the kibbutzniks in the power of the Russian Federation turned this with us on 27.10.99.
      3. +3
        16 September 2018 21: 47
        KARENIUS Share with us. what we organized for you on 27.10.99. but we don’t know
        1. -4
          16 September 2018 21: 54
          In your newspapers and in your newspapers about your participation in this dastardly affair was published ...
  15. 0
    16 September 2018 16: 07
    I wonder what academic title the author has? He so famously paints the works of historians on pseudo and pseudo-historical, that I was directly proud - not otherwise I read the latest historical bible!
    1. 0
      16 September 2018 17: 58
      I completely agree. Plus!
  16. +1
    16 September 2018 23: 45
    Karenius,
    You to Bush Sr. as to the Moon.
    1. -1
      17 September 2018 00: 58
      But to Lenin and Trotsky - to me as much as to Jupiter ... and it makes me happy that with such fools I am not on the way.
      We are talking about Bush Sr.
      Give another such example so that the current vice president is not dedicated to the demolition plans of the USSR.
      1. 0
        17 September 2018 01: 54
        Every Armenian must know that the position of US Vice President is purely representative laughing
        1. -1
          17 September 2018 08: 48
          Every Russian is obliged to know that when the director of the FBI organizes the shooting of the US president, he clears the way to the chair first of all to the one who at that time represents the vice president :)
          1. 0
            17 September 2018 10: 01
            Since the retirement of the US president, the US vice president ceases to represent, but not earlier.
            1. -1
              17 September 2018 10: 10
              And if he, Witziek, was previously also somehow the director of the CIA, then this is generally laughter ... how they could neglect him in serious matters ...
              1. 0
                17 September 2018 14: 40
                This is the trick of the American system - the vice president is kept at a distance from the control levers (in order to avoid excesses such as with the vice president of the Russian Federation Rutsky).
                1. -1
                  17 September 2018 15: 45
                  I knew that we would touch upon Rutsky, but I hoped for a chance :) That's why I again brought about the post of director of the CIA at Bush.
                  -------
                  Operator, if the Armenians in the 91st were told that with the Russians they would not be on the road in the future - I’m even afraid to recount what documents your Americans would give :)
                  1. 0
                    17 September 2018 15: 47
                    Quote: Karenius
                    if the Armenians in 91 were told that with the Russians they would not be in the future

                    Better late than never


                    Omerika will help you - learn the materiel (distribution of duties between the president and vice).
                    1. -1
                      17 September 2018 16: 00
                      In the 89th, I wanted to organize a surprise there for them at the parade on November 7 ... it's good that I could not solder correctly and ditched the equipment ...
                    2. -1
                      17 September 2018 17: 54
                      Quote: Operator
                      Omerika will help you - learn the materiel (distribution of duties between the president and vice).

                      Does it make sense to read all this? It’s not the presidents who make the state’s policy ... It's just a little more powerful than the Macron type ...
  17. +2
    18 September 2018 07: 49
    I do not quite understand what the author wants to say. He clearly describes the formation of the Ukrainian people as a separate nation. After all, no one will argue that now Ukrainian citizens have all the signs of a separate nation. Moreover, these signs are not less than among citizens of the Russian Federation. The process of forming the Ukrainian nation was lengthy and complex. But in fact, Ukraine has existed as a separate state for 27 years. Everything was done was quite tricky. It proclaimed independence within the borders of the Ukrainian SSR, while no one declared the historicity of these borders. Therefore, in the Russian Federation they try not to talk about it. The chance to return Crimea appeared only after the coup in Ukraine.
    Personally, I don’t like the results of independence. However, this is not a reason to deny the nation the right to self-determination on the basis of its lack of statehood until 1991. Maybe the author has phantom pains? So this is not right. To prove to Ukrainians that they do not exist is, at least, strange ...
    1. +1
      18 September 2018 22: 38
      Quote: Loki_2
      To prove to Ukrainians that they do not exist is, at least, strange ...

      why so? Almost all articles about Ukraine do this. They suggest that there are no Ukrainians. Only spent in the future, then they are Russian, whether they are traitors or they are Russian traitors, but again they do not exist ..
      In general, condemn the non-existent ... lol
      Threat in some of us invented in the Austrian General Staff, in others in the USSR, but here are the Poles. There are many parents ....
      1. 0
        20 September 2018 07: 02
        I suspect that the Russian Federation has nothing more to answer to Ukrainian nationalism, because in Russia itself, national identity rests on about the same whales.
        I think that constructive will not be a denial of reality, but an attempt to answer the question: what strategy of interaction of the Russian Federation should be chosen in relation to Ukraine and Ukrainians based on historical aspects? Here is a great topic for an article, or at least a conclusion. It would be interesting for me to read such an article.
        Do you master Yuri Apukhtin?
  18. 0
    18 September 2018 22: 54
    Quote: Alexander Green
    Biology lies in animals, and in humans - sociology.

    Is man not a biological species? Sociology is nothing more than an attempt to systematize its basic algorithms of behavior. She claims nothing else.
    Quote: Alexander Green
    What kind of nonsense? The Ukrainian language began to form when part of the territory of Kievan Rus was transferred to the Lithuanian principality, and then merged with Polish lands.

    And so it was necessary to officially pursue a policy of Ukrainization, and in order to create a theoretical basis for this "brilliant idea" to call for help from Hrushevsky?
    Quote: Alexander Green
    And regarding the picture, stupidity, on your part, it’s just squared. With the same success, we can say that all of Russia danced with Yeltsin to the German mute.
    That is, in fact, why did our partners come up with Ukraine no objections? Ukraine will either return to Russia, and without any union republics, it will like to stand in front of the United States like that, it has no other options.
    1. +1
      19 September 2018 00: 35
      Quote: Dart2027
      Is man not a biological species?

      Here you are wrong, a person is primarily a social being, without society he is Mowgli (not a person), in which the biological is really primary.

      Quote: Dart2027
      And so it was necessary to officially pursue a policy of Ukrainization, and in order to create a theoretical basis for this "brilliant idea" to call for help from Hrushevsky?

      Did Ukrainians first carry out the state of Lithuania, and then the Commonwealth? Do not make people laugh.
      The Ukrainian language began to take shape in the 14-15th century, even then the phonetic features of the Ukrainian language began to appear. After the union of Ukraine with Russia, this language was spoken by simple people, and Grushevsky and Shevchenko just made it literary, similar to Lomonosov and Pushkin.

      Quote: Dart2027
      That is, in fact, why did our partners come up with Ukraine no objections? Ukraine will either return to Russia, and without any union republics, it will like to stand in front of the United States like that, it has no other options.

      Sorry, but I can not agree with your stupidities.
      In Ukraine, processes are underway that will lead to its liberation from terry nationalism and the construction of an independent independent state, friendly to Russia, will begin, but it will not return to bourgeois Russia (as it was in the Russian Empire).
      Unification into a single state is possible only by the type of the USSR after the victory of the Soviet power, both in Russia and in Ukraine.
      1. +1
        19 September 2018 19: 44
        Quote: Alexander Green
        Here you are wrong, a person is primarily a social being

        The wolf is also a social creature. AND?
        Quote: Alexander Green
        Did Ukrainians first carry out the state of Lithuania, and then the Commonwealth?
        No, your beloved USSR
        Since 1920, the Bolsheviks of the Ukrainian SSR began Ukrainization at the republican level. In September - October 1920, the Ukrainian SSR introduced statutory studies of the Ukrainian language in educational institutions for educating educators and in schools with non-Ukrainian language of instruction, it was also envisaged in each provincial city to publish at least one Ukrainian-language newspaper, as well as create evening schools for instruction Ukrainian-language Soviet employees [16]. On May 30, 1921, the Institute of the Ukrainian Scientific Language was created on the basis of the Spelling and Terminology Commission at the Historical and Philological Division of the Academy of Sciences of Ukraine and the Terminology Commission of the Ukrainian Scientific Association in Kiev [17].

        Quote: Alexander Green
        After the union of Ukraine with Russia, the common people spoke this language
        Simply put, there were some small-town dialects that did not interest anyone and that they knew only in the most remote villages. Well, since there was nothing else, then a new language was sculpted from this
        Quote: Alexander Green
        In Ukraine, processes are underway that will lead to its liberation from terry nationalism and the construction of an independent independent state, friendly to Russia, will begin
        Which it cannot be in principle, because without this nationalism no one needs it for nothing, including its own population.
        1. +1
          19 September 2018 21: 45
          Answer to Dart.
          Sorry, dear, but after yours; "The wolf is also a social creature. And?" I do not see any reason to discuss further with you
          1. 0
            20 September 2018 19: 35
            Quote: Alexander Green
            Wolf is also a social creature.

            And what else can be answered by the statement that man is not a biological species?
            Quote: Alexander Green
            Here you are wrong, a person is primarily a social being, without society he is Mowgli (not a person), in which the biological is really primary.
        2. 0
          20 September 2018 07: 28
          Quote: Dart2027
          Simply put, there were some small-town dialects that did not interest anyone and that they knew only in the most remote villages. Well, since there was nothing else, then a new language was sculpted from this

          Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian dialects developed from the Old Russian language leaving approximately the same distance from the ancestor. Russian, according to my feelings, moved even a little further. Here the history imposes special features (read under whom a particular locality went and in what period). For example, the Russian language also has dialects, but the centralization of the state did not allow them to develop to the level of independent languages, although there were such prerequisites.
          The question is not how the Ukrainian language appeared, but the question is what to do about it? Can you express your point of view?

          Quote: Dart2027
          Which it cannot be in principle, because without this nationalism no one needs it for nothing, including its own population.

          I do not agree, the cultivation of nationalism is only a way to get more. Nothing personal is just a business. And you turn it into a single national idea.
          You either deliberately simplify everything or don’t understand the situation in Ukraine. Perhaps you have never lived in Ukraine and are not familiar with the mentality of its citizens, maybe you have no relatives or acquaintances there and you cannot constantly monitor the opinion of the people and follow the trends of its change.
          In 1991, 3 East Slavic state projects started. So far, everyone is not doing very well. The best of the best here is not to choose. But the best of the worst at the current stage can be recognized as the Russian Federation.
          1. 0
            20 September 2018 19: 37
            Quote: Loki_2
            The question is not how the Ukrainian language appeared, but the question is what to do about it? Can you express your point of view?

            To unite the country, introduce the official language of Russian, cancel the compulsory education of Ukrainian. In a couple of generations, everything will go by itself.
            Quote: Loki_2
            I do not agree, the cultivation of nationalism is only a way to get more. Nothing personal is just a business. And you turn it into a single national idea.

            Do they have another national idea?
  19. +1
    24 September 2018 11: 44
    Quote: Dart2027
    To unite the country, introduce the official language of Russian, cancel the compulsory education of Ukrainian. In a couple of generations, everything will go by itself.

    Fire and sword? Not funny...
    Wait until it gets rotten and pick up what nobody needs, and then restore at your own expense? There are risks in 50 years we will get a relapse.
    There is no good solution. There are bad and very bad ...
    Do you plan to completely ban the Ukrainian language or cancel the compulsory study at school?
    Quote: Dart2027
    Do they have another national idea?

    Of course. Just like ours. In terms of mentality, we are no different.
    Now imagine that you are told that you are not and never have been. That instead of Russians there is a Finno-Ugric horde. For me it would cause rejection. It is better to sing about a family of Slavic peoples or about a single people, but not about the fact that you are not. We must win the minds of Ukrainians, and not convince that they are not.

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned)

“Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"