Military Review

Guided bombs for the Luftwaffe

33
By the end of 1942, the situation in the Atlantic was not easy for Germany. The ships of the anti-Hitler coalition became more and more, the sea shipments were gaining momentum, and there was hardly any possibility of seriously preventing them. Moreover, by the beginning of the 43, British and American ships began to receive solid anti-aircraft weapons. For example, the English cruiser HMS Belfast at the time of its launch in 1939 had only eight 102-mm anti-aircraft guns. Over time, 40-mm Bofors automatic cannons (9 single-barreled and eight-quad units) and about ten 20-mm cannons, not counting large-caliber machine guns, were mounted on it to enhance the air defense. Obviously, the most effective anti-ship weapons of the time - bombers and torpedo bombers - in this situation, the forces lost a significant part of their chances of successful defeat of enemy ships. Because of the strong anti-aircraft resistance, German pilots had to drop bombs and torpedoes from great heights and ranges, respectively. Most of the ammunition did not reach the target.


Henschel Hs 293

There was a serious need for a new weaponswhich would combine a good range and excellent hit accuracy for that time. It should be noted that the general concept of such ammunition was proposed by engineer G. Wagner back in 1939, but then for a number of reasons it did not receive proper development. Wagner proposed to create a small similarity to a glider and equip it with control systems, a warhead, etc. In this case, the bomber could drop the bomb, being at a safe distance from the anti-aircraft cover of the target, and direct it using commands. The leadership of the Luftwaffe Wagner's proposal was of little interest. They did not give special preferences to the program, but did not begin to close it. The development of new ammunition began in the 40th at the Henschel company. The planning bomb received an index of Hs 293.



By December of that year several prototypes of the new bomb were ready. Constructively, they were a small mid-plane aircraft of the classical scheme. An explosive charge was placed in front of the bomb's hull, borrowed from the SC-500 - 300 aerial bomb, ammotol. In the rear part of the Hs 293, in turn, control equipment and tail assembly were installed. The trapezoidal wing span of the 3,1 meter was mounted in the middle of the bomb. Under the case of the bomb, the Walter HWK 109-507 model accelerator was suspended. As planned by the authors of the project, he had to give the bomb the initial speed required for a long-distance flight.

The first prototypes of Wagner’s planning bomb were in the Hs 293V-2 project version. The previous option - Hs 293V-1 - remained on the drawings and in fact became an advance project of a new weapon. On December 16 of 1940, the first test discharge of a guided bomb was made. As a carrier, a modified He-111 bomber was used. It installed radio control equipment, a sight for the navigator-scorer, through which he had to monitor the flight of the bomb, as well as a special heating system. The compressor and the heating element brought warm air inside the bomb so that all its systems would work normally. Despite all the efforts of designers and test pilots, the first bombing was unsuccessful. Separation of the Hs 293 from the carrier took place normally, the accelerator dispersed the bomb, but the navigator-bombardier was not able to get at least into the target area. Fortunately for Henschel, this was not the fault of the design. Just a certain worker at the assembly mixed up the connected wires. Because of this, the ailerons of the bomb began to work incorrectly - with the “roll to the left” command, the bomb raised the left wing and vice versa. Investigation of the causes of the incident did not take much time and the second test of the planning bomb, after appropriate checks, was carried out only two days after the first. This time everything worked normally and the bomb dropped in 5,5-6 kilometers from the conditional target fell into the area of ​​the target drawn on the ground. Subsequently, several dozen training bombings were carried out.

1.Dornier Do-217K-3 with Hs. 293A on the suspension pylon 2.Heinkel He-111H resets Hs. 293 3. Hs. 293 Goes on Target


In the course of further work on the project, the planning bomb Hs 293 underwent several design changes. So, almost immediately after the start of testing, new pyrotechnic tracers were installed at the ends of the wing consoles. They were intended to facilitate tracking the path of the bomb. It should be noted that the original tracers were quite suitable for developers and pilots in terms of brightness and visibility. But the duration of their burning left much to be desired. In the course of several test bombings, a situation developed when at the most crucial moment of their flight the bomb became practically invisible to the operator. And all because of the quickly burned out tracer. As a result, by selecting the composition of the mixture, the burning time of the checkers was brought to 110 seconds, which was considered sufficient for combat use. Another problem Hs 293 was in the accelerator. In tests, everything was more or less normal, but during combat operation a serious drawback of the Walter HWK 109-507 liquid engine was revealed. The fact is that the drill technicians could not provide the same “greenhouse” conditions as they were during the tests. In particular, a can of compressed air used to push fuel was often filled with simple atmospheric air. Due to the natural humidity of the injected air and temperature changes, some valves and valves often froze during the operation of the pneumatic system, as a result of which the fuel supply stopped. Reich ministry staff first aviation suggested using another BMW liquid accelerator. However, soon the idea of ​​a rocket engine on a planning bomb was abandoned altogether and Hs 293 began to be equipped with a WASAG 109-512 solid fuel accelerator. According to its characteristics, it was close to the Walter engine, but did not have a tendency to suddenly stop working. Finally, just before the adoption of the Hs 293 bomb, its modification with control over the wire channel was created. Coils with thin cable placed inside the wing.

Hs Xnumha


In the two years of testing (from the end of 40 to the end of 42), the combat performance of the new bomb was brought to excellent values. An experienced carrier crew could drop a bomb at a distance of 14-16 kilometers from a target at an altitude of 5-6 km and stack up to half of all bombs in a relatively small area around it. Of course, this could not be enough to defeat, say, a ship. But for those times, fifty percent of the hit when dumping at such a distance was an extremely successful indicator. At the beginning of 1943, the planning bomb Hs 293A was put into service and mass production began. In April of the same year, on the basis of the second group of the 100th bomber squadron of the Luftwaffe (II / KG100), the formation of a special aviation unit armed with a new guided munition began. The group used Dornier Do-217 bombers. Due to its characteristics, this aircraft could simultaneously carry two planning bombs at once. In late July, the 43-i II / KG100 was transferred to the coast of the Bay of Biscay to fight the Allied ships. At about the same time, Group II / KG40 was formed.

The first combat use of the Hs 293A bomb took place on 25 August 1943. Then a mix of 12 bombers found an English 40 escort group in the patrol zone. From a safe distance, the Germans dropped several bombs, but did not achieve much success. The sloops HMS Bideford and HMS Languard were slightly damaged, one sailor from the “Bideford” died. The reason for the failure of the Germans lay in the accuracy and technical problems. So, the bomb that got into “Bidford” did not detonate properly, and the four Hs 293A, which exploded next to the “Languard”, could not cause serious damage to the sloop due to a miss. Nevertheless, the capabilities of the new planning bomb were demonstrated in a real combat situation. Two days later, the English sloop HMS Egret and the Canadian destroyer Athabaskan were attacked. The German bomb landed the English ship directly into the artillery cellar. Egret sank. Canadian sailors were more fortunate - Etebascan received only heavy damage. For the year of combat use, unit II / KG100 with the help of planning bombs Hs 293A sank 17 of British and American ships and caused damage of varying severity to 15-te. It is noteworthy that the efficiency of the pilots II / KG100 and II / KG40 grew along with the number of combat applications. For example, from February to August of the 44, on account of both bomber groups, there was not a single damaged ship, but only a submerged one. The result of the raids of German bombers was the decision of the Allied Command to withdraw their ships farther from the Atlantic coast of Europe. Due to this, the German submariners were able to navigate the Bay of Biscay, almost without risking to be detected. The latest case of successful combat use of Hs 293A against ships relates to 15 August 44. Then the German pilots from southern France sank two American tank landing ships and damaged another. Due to the successful advance of the Allies in Western Europe, by the autumn of 44, the Germans had almost no opportunity to fly on patrols of the Bay of Biscay and other coastal zones. Finally, just the last combat use of the Hs 293A bombs occurred in April 1945. Trying to somehow delay the advance of the Red Army, the Nazis attempted to destroy several bridges across the Oder. Thanks to the opposition of the Soviet fighter aircraft, the bridges almost did not suffer. The offensive continued.

Hs-293D with television

Operator induces Hs-293


Based on the construction of the Hs 293 bomb, several modifications were developed:
- Hs 294. Initially anti-ship ammunition. Development began in the 1941 year in order to ensure the reliable defeat of enemy ships. The essence of the ideology of the project Hs 294 is that the bomb should fall into the ship below its waterline. To do this, the bomb hull received a new form, the wings were made dropable, and acceleration was carried out immediately by two accelerators. At the end of 1942, trials were started, and in all, according to some sources, about one hundred and fifty such bombs were collected. There is no data on combat use;
- Hs 295. An enhanced version of the Hs 293A. Almost all equipment and construction was updated. Thus, the bomb hull acquired more streamlined contours, radio control equipment was replaced with a more noise-resistant one, and one solid-fuel accelerator gave way to two. In 44, work began on equipping this bomb with a television guidance system, but this version of the Hs 295 was not even embodied in metal. A total of about 50 of such bombs was made, but the Germans did not have time to apply them in a real situation.

FX-1400

The development of G. Wagner fully suited the Luftwaffe in terms of combat effectiveness. As for the financial and technological side of the case, there were complaints. For mass production, a simpler design was required. Back in 1938, Dr. M. Kramer began experiments to improve the accuracy of the SC250 bomb. Like G. Wagner, he finally came to the conclusion that it was necessary to equip the bomb with serious guidance equipment. In 1940, Kramer's developments interested the Luftwaffe leadership and he was sent to continue building a new ammunition at Ruhrstahl. At the same time, the customers demanded an increase in the power of the warhead of the future guided bomb — like the Hs 293, the Kramer project should have been based on the existing aerial bomb. This time chose PC1400 caliber 1400 kg.

Given the characteristics of the original bomb, Kramer began to develop the appropriate "body kit" and control equipment. The result of the work on the project FX1400 or Fritz X was a new guided munition that looks significantly different from the creation of Wagner. The body of the Fritz X was molded from steel and in some places had walls up to 15 centimeters thick. In the middle part of the hull four wings were installed X-shaped, and in the back - tail plumage of the original form. Four planes in the shape of a plus (two keels and a stabilizer with a rudder) were closed with an oval piece of complex shape. Kramer also placed control equipment and a tracer at the tail end to facilitate the work of the bomb operator. Due to the presence of a tracer in the rear part of the hull, a version about a rocket engine appeared at one time, but did not have one in any FX1400 version. The thick walls of the bomb shell pushed the designers to the original idea of ​​its use. The Fritz X bomb had to be dropped from a great height, at least 4000 meters. When falling, the bomb acquires a speed at which it can pierce the side of the ship and explode inside. For this reason, the bomb received a delayed fuse. Contact fuse was not provided.

The first prototypes of the FX1400 bomb were delivered to the test site near Karlshafen in February 1942. True, the weather conditions did not allow starting full-fledged tests. A few weeks were spent relocating the testers to Italy at the Foggia test site. Fritz X were assembled much more carefully than the first Hs 293 and the tests were quite successful. Most of the time was spent on training bomber operators and on working out the aircraft’s radio equipment and the bomb itself. By the fall of 42, test pilots were able to achieve the probability of hitting the target in 50%. It also turned out that if the bomb was dropped from a height of at least six kilometers, it was able to penetrate 130 millimeters of deck armor. The hitting of the FX1400 bomb into the ship — combined with the guidance system and detonation of the charge with a delay — was considered by the Germans almost no chance for the enemy’s sailors.

Guided bombs for the Luftwaffe


In the autumn of the same 42 of the year, on the basis of Granz, the 21 training and test command was formed. The purpose of its creation was the training of combatant pilots using the new ammunition. A little later, the 21-e command will be transformed into group III of the 100 bomber squadron (III / KG100). The “baptism of fire” Fritz X took place only at the end of July 1943. German pilots found several British ships in the roads of Syracuse and Augusta. Two attacks were carried out and both were unsuccessful. Further use of the new bomb was also not very successful. The fact that the high altitude was actually a problem: FX1400 could not be used in cloudy conditions below 4000 meters. The second snag in the application of the planning Fritz was in the electronic countermeasures of the British. Interestingly, there is still no exact data on the use of “jammers”. But it is known that the British attached to the EW more important than the Germans. However, Kramer, in 41, developed an alternative guidance system with the transmission of commands over the wire. Each bomb was supposed to have two coils: one on the console of the bomb, the other on the console of the aircraft carrier. The total wire margin was 30 kilometers for each bomb. The last problem of the FX1400 bomb, as it turned out, “grew” out of what was initially considered an advantage. High armor penetration was useful when attacking heavy ships like battleships. But merchant ships and even destroyers of a speeding bomb sometimes just pierced through. The fuse did not have time to react in time and the charge was exploded only when FX1400 was already in the water. Of course, such an explosion had no proper effect. Due to all of the reasons for the Fritz X bombs taken together, according to reports, only one ship was sank. It was the Italian battleship Roma. Five other Italian, American and British ships were only seriously damaged.



The actual low combat potential ultimately affected the fate of the entire project. November 19 43 Group III / KG100 received an order to return to Germany. There, the pilots had to learn how to use the Hs 293A bombs.

BV 226 and BV 246

Blohm & Voss was the last to join the race to create guided bombs. Project BV 226, created under the leadership of Dr. R. Fogg, had exactly the same purpose as the above. The difference was in the chosen way of implementing the idea. First of all, it is worth noting the relatively small combat weight of the bomb - 730 kilograms, 435 of which, according to the project, accounted for the warhead. At the same time, the BV 226 had a high aspect ratio hull and wing, which made it look like a glider. Several prototypes of this bomb were sent for testing in 1942. In its original form, the BV 226 project was not continued: the lack of advantages over competitors affected.

The second life of Fogg’s development was the failure of the Fritz X bomb. The very first problems of the planning ammunition from Ruhrstal forced the Luftwaffe’s management to pay more attention to alternative projects. The project of the company "Blomm und Foss" was interesting lack of strict restrictions on the height of the bomb dropping. That is why R. Fogg was instructed to improve the BV 226 and bring it to mass production. While maintaining the hull and aerodynamic contours, the BV 226 received an updated tail unit during the modernization. Instead of cruciform plumage, the bomb was equipped with a stabilizer of greater scope with keel washers at the ends. Wing large elongation received a new frame. The longitudinal wing spars were made flexible. As conceived by the engineers, the flexible wing, when the bomb was disengaged, worked like a leaf spring of a car and repelled the ammunition from the aircraft. The aerodynamic scheme applied in the BV 226 project allowed achieving aerodynamic quality of the order of 25. For comparison, the experimental aircraft Rutan Voyager had approximately the same aerodynamic quality. Thus, being dropped from a height of about a kilometer, the BV 226 was able to fly about 25 kilometers in range. Obviously, such a bomb was much more profitable than the Fritz X. The BV 226 bomb guidance system was similar to the Hs 293 and FX1400 equipment — the operator controlled the flight over the radio channel.



12 December 1943, the updated BV 226 planning bomb was put into service under the designation BV 246 Hagelkorn. He-111 and Do-217 bombers could be used as carrier aircraft for new bombs. At the very end of 43, the German pilots began to study the next guided bomb. But they failed to put it into practice - just two months after adopting the BV 246 project, it was frozen. There were several reasons. Deploying large-scale production required financial and labor costs, and there were not so many applications. Finally, the BV 246 did not have the ability to install a wired control system. Production collapsed, and already made planning bombs were used for testing to test various technologies.

At the beginning of 1945, the Reich Ministerial Ministry of Aviation requested to renew the BV 246 project in a new capacity. Now, on the basis of the planning bomb, it was necessary to make ammunition designed to destroy enemy radar stations. According to the renewed project, the use of the BV 246 bomb was to be carried out according to the “launched-forgotten” principle. For this, instead of the old radio command and control equipment, the Radieschen (“Radish”) system was installed on the bomb. This system was the most genuine semi-active radar homing head. The placement of the "Radish" required the designers to re-arrange the nose of the bomb, make a new fairing, and also move the warhead with 435 kilograms of ammotol. Even in winter, 45-th at the plant Blohm und Voss managed to collect ten prototypes of BV 246 Radieschen. During tests at the Unterless test site, bombs with passive radar seeker demonstrated the complexity of such systems. Eight out of ten bombings ended in failure: the bomb either missed the target or “left” to the ground at a great distance from the target. Only in two test launches the bombs fell at an acceptable distance from the target. Despite the low percentage of hits, the Luftwaffe wanted to get a new bomb. A contract was signed for the supply of thousands of BV 246 Radieschen, but ... The spring of 45 was already outside and no controlled bomb, regardless of the type of guidance, could stop the advance of the Red Army from the east and the allies from the west.

On the materials of the sites:
http://airwar.ru/
http://ursa-tm.ru/
http://luftarchiv.de/
http://ausairpower.net/
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33 comments
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  1. Dimon Lviv
    Dimon Lviv 24 May 2012 10: 37
    +7
    Wow, it turns out that in this area the Germans were the first! It is terrible to think what would happen if they managed to bring their developments to mind, and started the war a little later, more prepared.
    1. patline
      patline 24 May 2012 14: 38
      +10
      Yes, how would they be in time? We wouldn’t have time in any way. They were pushed to war by all possible methods. And none other than the Anglo-Saxons.
      You ask yourself, how in the 12 years of the existence of Nazi Germany, they have achieved such heights, starting almost from poverty, after the First World War? There were huge financial injections and all for the sole purpose of destroying Russia (the USSR).
      Great Britain conducted this process. And she conducted it so competently that Germany became strong, but so strong that it could be dealt with. Otherwise, the Britons could scrape on their backbone from the Germans.
      The history of Britain has always been famous for pitting European countries with each other. They still muddy the water in Eastern Europe and the Baltic, setting them against Russia. The vile country of Britain.
    2. revnagan
      revnagan 24 May 2012 16: 23
      +5
      Quote: Dimon Lviv
      It is terrible to think what would happen if they managed to bring their developments to mind, and started the war a little later, more prepared.
      Without the seizure of Soviet territory, and, most importantly, resources, Germany and its economy would have suffocated already in 1943. Without the food seized from us, the Germans would begin to bend out of hunger in 1943 too. They were forced to attack us in 1941, and forced they are the ghost of economic and resource hunger. And the understanding that despite the purges, the Red Army is becoming stronger over time. Time worked against Germany. In addition, the Anglo-Saxons pushed the misinformation about the USSR.
  2. Tirpitz
    Tirpitz 24 May 2012 11: 47
    -7
    A little later, the USSR would start the war and end in 1942 in Paris.
  3. Kostyan
    Kostyan 24 May 2012 12: 52
    -9
    here ... yes what is it ... ???? and here the Germans are ahead of the rest ... and now compare with our idiots .... we have everything further than 20 km. the Germans didn’t hit the front line anymore and they were quietly moving there .. and the whole war ..... it’s a disgrace, a disgrace to our air force ... I’m watching .. and did we do anything well at all .. or we only blindly filled up with corpses ... well, at least something should be there ... no .. probably still no .....
    1. borisst64
      borisst64 24 May 2012 13: 01
      +7
      It is only in fairy tales that Ivan defeats the smart, the fact of the matter is that the USSR defeated the most powerful enemy on earth, which means we are smarter and wiser. And enough of the clichés pouring down "blindly filled up with corpses", on this site everyone should know that at the fronts we lost at least an equal amount (I am inclined to say less) and human losses are the majority of executed, tortured, killed civilians.
      1. prispek
        prispek 25 May 2012 01: 37
        0
        Here I am on this site and I don’t know what I should know? And most importantly where? It's news to me that on the fronts we lost an equal number of PEOPLE What reason do you have to believe that our losses were less? Even our official statistics give different data. And our statisticians, Goebbels are no match for them. And at the expense of cliches - "blindly filled up with corpses" ... You go in search of the Rzhev area. There, in front of the German machine-gun nests, our soldiers lie almost in three layers. Still ... not buried ... Their eternal memory.
    2. Sergl
      Sergl 24 May 2012 15: 31
      +6
      Kostyan,

      At the expense of 20 km from the front line, ask the Belarusian partisans;)
    3. Passing
      Passing 24 May 2012 16: 38
      +5
      Try to move away from the idiotic stamps driven by you that are not clear to anyone, and try to turn on the brain. How many bombs were produced? thousand pieces? and how many of them were used for ground targets? And with us, what was interesting to do with the IL-2 produced in the amount of as many as 38 thousand pieces, what did the Pe-2 and other bombers do?
      1. smile
        smile 24 May 2012 19: 04
        +2
        Passing
        Yes, he can’t - the relay burned out, and he passed the brain to waste paper for a long time - in exchange for toilet paper.
    4. smile
      smile 24 May 2012 19: 01
      +2
      Kostyan
      No one doubts that you are an idiot - you yourself prove it with your sensationally accurate 20 kilometers and deceitful howls of a well-aimed corpse heap (1 to 1.1). You really didn’t seem to be doing anything normal, you don’t even believably learn to try. But please don't use the term "our". After all, judging by your rhetoric, yours were on the other side. Dr. Goebbels would be quite pleased with you, and if he could, he would definitely pat you on the ruddy cheek, say that you are a karoshie maltshik and give you a ... Belgian chocolate.
      You would have used only the memoirs of beaten fascists to honor, preferably with a lower rank, even those who were on a piece of paper with us and wailing that if ... then we would ... Wow! it would have cleared up in my head if it’s not cast, of course.
      1. Kostyan new
        Kostyan new 24 May 2012 19: 29
        -2
        oooooh .. and what is it here we have for a kindergarten cackled ????? like a connoisseur of the great military history ??? and so sonny I’m answering you .... first erase the snot and don’t cackle ... secondly .. I took it from the memoirs of an ordinary German tankman, then I’ll find it out lay ..... but about the corpses you remember about the 41st and 42nd and 43rd and 44th and, in principle, 45th ... one meat grinder ..... and where is 1 to one ??? every year the army is 100% destroyed ... and boobs also write about the fact that it supposedly gained experience .. what the hell is the experience if everything went to nothing in oblivion .. this is for you so little son for little thought .. maybe you can understand the jerk. ... and when I say ours it means ours .. and nothing else ....... and so you understand about our adventures the military read about the stupid herd of military leaders who put all our guys in the ground for no fucking, just like that. ... according to his foolishness and stupidity .. according to the will of the monster and Satan .... read about the Mehlis, the proud, Sokolovsky, beetles and about various other rams ... oh .... read and you can understand .. I still hope so ... after all, you are still a Russian person ..... and people like you, here on the site .. like patriots, in my opinion do more harm than good .. because in the younger generation you bring up feelings of imaginary superiority and false patriotism .. it's even worse ..... you need to know the truth and relate to the enemy from a real page rather than pseudo-speculations about his supposedly underdeveloped and cowardly ty .. all the time the Yankees are dumb, cowards and with coffee .. what is this ?? what is this tell me ??? you hosh repeating the mistakes of the 41st tries .... so before you talk think twice or even three times and then flounder son .... I hope you still get to all this with age ....
        1. Passing
          Passing 24 May 2012 20: 08
          +3
          Kostyan, as I understand it, you think that the official figures for the losses of the RA are many times underestimated. You consider yourself an impartial truth-seeker. Well, well, prove in practice, try to approach the figures of German losses just as critically.

          In your opinion, the truth-seeker, are these official German data true?
          1. Passing
            Passing 24 May 2012 20: 56
            +2
            To make it easier to think, I’ll clarify how it turns out that it was in the initial period of the war, when the spacecraft was helpless, died in boilers and surrendered en masse, the Germans' losses reached their absolute peak ?! But in general, for 41 years, they are not much different from later periods, the very ones when the Germans were hollowed in boilers with the overwhelming superiority of spacecraft in soldiers and equipment. No, I understand, you think that ten Russian soldiers are inferior to one Fritsevsky, but compared with 41 years, there were many more Russian soldiers, and more guns, and many times more planes, but only many times more, and Germans' losses increase by a maximum of tens of percent. How so? It turns out that the more the KA fought, the less effectively did it? Those. The spacecraft of the July 1941 model, was at times more combat-ready the spacecraft of the 1945 model ???
            Clear this point from the point of view of the truth-teller.
            1. Kostyan new
              Kostyan new 24 May 2012 21: 58
              -2
              and where is the data ??? maybe it's all bullshit ....
              1. Kostyan new
                Kostyan new 24 May 2012 22: 04
                -2
                I didn’t read just whom anyone .. everyone insists on his own ... and a breakup of millions .. so this issue is not solved for me .. well, nothing .....
                1. Kostyan new
                  Kostyan new 24 May 2012 22: 08
                  +1
                  here is the truth what else I wanted to add .... the phrase of an unknown British officer. When he saw a column of Soviet prisoners of war, which was being driven past the "international" camp, he said: "I forgive the Russians in advance for everything that they will do with Germany."
              2. Passing
                Passing 24 May 2012 22: 27
                +1
                I myself did not check it in the German archives, but I don’t see the reasons for not believing, the data, as I understand it, was taken from the official statistics of the Wehrmacht.
                http://topwar.ru/12991-falsifikaciya-nemeckih-poter.html
                1. Passing
                  Passing 24 May 2012 22: 56
                  +2
                  Here by the way I googled another picture:

                  The same strange picture.
                  1. Kostyan new
                    Kostyan new 25 May 2012 00: 34
                    +1
                    there you have to see this peak on the bagration ... and finally I read the drain about the losses of various authors, which I already don’t believe anyone ... I honestly even stopped worrying about this topic .. anyway, we will never know the truth ... .
        2. smile
          smile 24 May 2012 22: 41
          +3
          Kostyan new
          First, sir, if you please contact "you"
          Secondly, do not be so nervous - this makes it difficult to adequately assess the situation
          Thirdly. In terms of combat losses (excluding the extermination of prisoners), the Wehrmacht and the armies of the German satellites have a ratio of 1 to 1.1 to 1 to 1.3 (historians have not come to a consensus - military historians, and not rams who have fallen for false propaganda).
          The fact that the Germans whistled us at the beginning of the war is no secret to anyone, just as it is no secret how we beat them at the end.
          I will not argue with Otto Carius, who, according to his boastful post-war statements, destroyed 20 IS-2 tanks each at a time, is nonsense. but it was he who said that five Russians are more dangerous than 30 Americans.
          Further, regarding the losses - a little more than a month of fighting in December-January 1941-42 cost the Germans losses equal to the Wehrmacht losses incurred when taking almost the whole of Europe with Poland in addition - 120. By the way, we lost 000 more during the same period.
          When we drove them in 1943, we were inferior to them in terms of population, let alone the fact that the 400 millionth population of Europe worked for them.
          I don’t have time to convince you, and indeed desires, but I will give a few examples.
          I live in Kaliningrad. Somewhat regularly in the summer I go to barbecue at the Balga castle complex (the first settlement of the crusaders in Prussia). So - from there the Germans tried to evacuate from the encirclement. Until now you can find a dozen trunks from German carbines using a scoop there in a day. What do you think, weapons were not collected? that in a couple of days, our attack aircraft and dive-bombers mixed almost ten thousand Germans with the ground and drowned about 3 hundred small-sized vessels. Just a lot of Germans accumulated there and they had nowhere to go. Three generations of our diggers have still not been able to dig out weapons. Balga’s photos are terrifying - it looks like a solid firing range. . At the same time, on the beam of the city of Svetly, our armored boats, together with attack aircraft, drowned over three thousand Germans in an hour, who tried to get to Pillau along the Kaliningrad Gulf by about 200 longboats, boats. Our BC just crushed these boats. And returning to the protective embankment of the bay (30-50 meters wide, two kilometers long), the BC found that about a thousand Germans, who lay down their arms and were guarded on the embankment by one of the boats, were trying to capture a self-propelled boat hit by a self-propelled gun. The Germans were shot in a few minutes.
          Look at the path, the Germans retreat to Pillau - they are littered with corpses and equipment, almost in three layers.
          Koenigsberg was taken in three days with less strength (I mean precisely the units that participated in the assault) and losses than the Germans. For six months, the Germans did not take our stalingrad and lost one and a half times more troops, possessing monstrous superiority in manpower, but here ... When I wandered around the bastions, then, having combat experience, and having specially acquainted with the tactics of our troops during the assault on the city. I still can’t imagine HOW they were able to do this .... The structures are simply monstrous. Suffice it to say that with an average number of artillery hits of great and special power in the roof of the main bastions of the fort (and there are about ten) about a hundred, the penetration rate is 3-7.
          By the way, in Pillau, which we took with losses about 10 times less than the Germans, there was no one to bury the corpses. Thousands of Germans lurched to the shore and were covered with dunes, no one counted them. ... you can list for a long time, but laziness. if you want natni - you will find ..

          And in the fourth. A laudable desire to understand. and not replace one mythology with another. dictated by appropriate propagandists. And don’t be rude to me!
          All. Is free!
          1. Kostyan new
            Kostyan new 25 May 2012 00: 31
            +1
            )))))) cool .. I liked the answer .... damn, wait a minute, I’ll sleep ..... tomorrow I’ll roll up the answer ..... but the ending is class !!!! 5 points..!!!! all take my words back ..... well done ...
            1. smile
              smile 27 May 2012 00: 10
              0
              Kostyan new
              Decent and understandable answer, you surprised me. and I let the dog down on you in the first comment because you called our people an idiot ... someone - you can, yourself - you can, me too ... but the people are unforgivable!
          2. prispek
            prispek 25 May 2012 00: 52
            -1
            I probably do not own such a volume of information. And of course I do not have combat experience. Perhaps that’s why I consider prisoners of war who died in captivity military losses, unlike military historians who did not come to a consensus. (By the way, the names of those who deduced this ratio are from 1 to 1.1 to 1 to 1.3)
            1. smile
              smile 25 May 2012 19: 12
              0
              prispek
              No one neglects people tortured into captivity. But the fact is that some are trying to convince us of the worthlessness of our people, in general. that the Russians are wild fools with bad-natured traditions, with an indestructible thirst for world domination in order to turn the whole world into a concentration camp, they can only fight decent people with their dead bodies, using stone axes and rusty forks stolen from the lord's table as weapons. The figures given by these people are very diverse, especially often I hear about the ratio of 1 to 14. But this is an obvious lie, and personally the tradition of some segments of the population infuriates me furiously. that we are the most stupid, wild and worthless people without external control.
              And "combat losses" - this is a term used by the military, just like sanitary, irrecoverable, etc. losses, take an interest.
              About links - Offhand - perhaps you should read the book by Vladimir Medinsky (he became Minister of Culture) - "War", and Rodent (this is the pseudonym of two good military historians) "How Viktor Suvorov wrote history", in both books there are a huge number of references - there themselves figure it out. In addition, the books are simply interesting and written in good language, not overloaded with terminology.
              1. prispek
                prispek 27 May 2012 00: 34
                +1
                Well, if Medinsky writes in good language, then I pass. I will not hide; at one time Suvorov made a great impression on me. Then, having read almost all of his books, I began to figure out where what and how much. Yes, he juggles a lot, adjusts a lot to a predetermined result, flaunts a lot and writes for the "catch phrase" (and for money, of course). And just then Isaev and Pravdyuk arrived. Well, I think I'll take a look at Suvorovism from the other side. I read it, but the other side is not. Everything that these authors write confirms rather than refutes Suvorova. In addition, constant abuse and insults of the opponent lead to the opposite result. Well, yes, Rezun is a traitor, no one argues. But if it were not for him the Gareevs, Krivosheevs, Volkogonovs, together with the Isaevs and Pravdyuk, would still feed us with tales of stupid Stalin, surprise, not readiness for war and the endlessly peaceful policy of the CPSU (b) - CPSU. If anyone argues with arguments against Suvorov, it is Mark Solonin. But I'm afraid that this author will cause you even more dislike
                1. Kars
                  Kars 27 May 2012 00: 39
                  0
                  Somehow you are not very attentive to reading.
                  Armored vehicles --- everything that Rezun tells is not true, the Red Army would be ready for 1943

                  And a particularly obvious lie is the explosion and destruction of the Stalin Line, which has survived in fragments even now, and in some places has resisted the Germans.
                  1. prispek
                    prispek 27 May 2012 16: 41
                    +1
                    Yes, about the armored vehicles Rezun really lies especially jellied. This is exactly what I had in mind when I wrote that he adjusts the arguments to a predetermined result. If you believe him in this matter, then the BT, T-34 and KV-1 series tanks are a miracle weapon, which cannot be and cannot be equal. But wasn’t that exactly in the Soviet era that literally everything convinced us, from cinematographers-propagandists to generals (putting the BT series out of brackets, of course)? For a breakthrough to Berlin, the Red Army, I think, would never have been ready. Being unprepared for war is the usual state of Russia in general and our army in particular. But this does not mean that they did not prepare for a breakthrough and that the leadership of the USSR was struggling for peace by all means. Otherwise, why then all? About the Stalin line, we can only say that she did not stop the Germans and did not even delay them very much. The reasons for this are not widely covered.
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 27 May 2012 16: 48
                      0
                      Quote: prispek
                      But wasn’t that the only thing that convinced us in Soviet times, from cinematographers-propagandists to generals


                      Propaganda is everywhere, now I think the German Tiger .. sinless ..
                      Quote: prispek
                      The reasons for this are not widely covered (By the way, here's the topic for the article. Write - I’ll read it for sure)

                      Why? There is already a monograph - The Stalin Line in battle.
                      Quote: prispek
                      But this does not mean that they did not prepare for a breakthrough and that the leadership of the USSR was struggling for peace by all means.

                      And how do you think the struggle for peace is going on? And who led it in 1930-40's?
                      1. prispek
                        prispek 27 May 2012 22: 24
                        0
                        The conversation, if not mistaken, was not about propaganda. And, if I’m not mistaken, it’s not about the struggle for peace (although the struggle for world domination or for world revolution is also a struggle for peace)
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 27 May 2012 22: 28
                        0
                        The conversation was about Rezun. And how it is badly refuted.

                        And you dragged the fight for peace.
                        Quote: prispek
                        But this does not mean that they did not prepare for a breakthrough and that the leadership of the USSR fought hard for peace

                        So it’s up to you to answer who struggled for peace, and how the USSR got out of their trend.
                      3. prispek
                        prispek 28 May 2012 01: 38
                        0
                        That's right, about Rezun, or rather, that neither Isaev nor Pravdyuk refuted him. I do not think that Medinsky can do it. As I understand it, I'm not at the interrogation yet, and you are not an investigator, so that I would tell you who struggled for peace and how the USSR vibrated from their trend. But I will answer. The number of tanks for example. Are you interested in BTT so think about why the USSR needed so many tanks (the exact numbers know better than me) Probably for the world to fight (the struggle for world domination or for world revolution is this the struggle for PEACE) Or am I wrong?
                      4. Kars
                        Kars 28 May 2012 02: 08
                        -1
                        Quote: prispek
                        and you are not an investigator, so that I would tell you who was fighting for peace, and how the USSR vibrated from their trend


                        But in any way *
                        Quote: prispek
                        Are you interested in BTT so think about why the USSR needed so many tanks (you know the exact numbers better

                        Then answer why England had so many warships?
                        And the number of tanks ----- as you see, the USSR in 1941 did not really help.
                        Moreover, it was not so much superior to the Germans about 1 to 2 in the western direction.
                        Quote: prispek
                        or rather, that neither Isaev nor Pravdyuk refuted him

                        Strange, but I didn’t read about Pravdyuk --- but Isaev denied it.

                        As for the tanks I recommend familiarization --- you will be surprised.
                      5. prispek
                        prispek 28 May 2012 22: 15
                        0
                        "And voluntarily in any way" - Are you joking? Well, well ... "Then tell me why England have so many warships?" - Well, if you yourself don't guess, ask the British "Besides, they didn't outnumber the Germans so much by about 1 to 2 in the western direction" - Twice - "not so much"? And how much so much? "and Isaev refuted" - You think so, but I do not.
            2. Denis
              Denis 27 May 2012 17: 42
              0
              Quote: prispek
              BT, T-34 and KV-1 - a miracle weapon, which has no equal and cannot be

              ek you grabbed about the miracle weapon
              it seems to me that this term was not used in our country, but rather in those who were fairly criticized and realized that they were wrong
              everything is decided not by weapons, but by PEOPLE (in skillful hands and h ... y-balalaika)
              hu hu seen without any propaganda, our tanks were in Berlin for a long time
              and the Nazi in Moscow?
              ... except as trophies
              convinced?
              1. prispek
                prispek 27 May 2012 22: 15
                0
                No, not convinced. I don’t even understand what you are convincing me of.
    5. Kars
      Kars 27 May 2012 00: 40
      0
      Quote: prispek
      . (By the way, the names of those who derived this ratio can be: from 1 to 1.1 to 1 to 1.3)


      Go to my profile --- on this topic article, surnames, sources.
      1. prispek
        prispek 27 May 2012 17: 19
        0
        I went in, read it - I don't believe it! No, the article "Losses of the USSR and Germany in the Second World War" is a huge amount of information and a huge amount of work that commands respect. But behind the stream of figures that cannot be confirmed or refuted, something is lost that is difficult to explain. I don't know, I can't formulate it yet. Besides, Krivosheev .... I don't know. I do not know. Perhaps I'm wrong ... And for the article "Tank (man, wednesday. Machine) bow to you to the ground. I already thought that I could not wait for someone to say about a man who fights in a combat vehicle. We have only about Performance characteristics are arguing everywhere, and in what conditions these performance characteristics have to be implemented silently. I read this article by reference somewhere on another resource and now in disputes about the qualities of BTT, I have convincing arguments.
        1. Kars
          Kars 27 May 2012 18: 15
          0
          Quote: prispek
          I went in, read it - I do not believe it!


          Personally, your problems. With the losses that Solonik solders we would lose in 1942. And I don’t even speak for Solzhenitsyn.
          For example, --- I had 2 grandfather and 7 of their brothers fought. And everyone returned, of course, not with a full set of limbs and a couple of dozen extra holes.
          Quote: prispek
          But behind a stream of numbers that can neither be denied nor disproved

          German numbers can’t be verified either.
          Quote: prispek
          bow to you to the ground

          Not me, the author is indicated. On the network for many years.
          1. prispek
            prispek 27 May 2012 22: 36
            0
            Sorry, I'm online recently. One of the two grandfathers who fought against me returned alone, and even then he was disabled and did not live to see my birth. About Solonik; arguments please. But I didn’t distinguish between German and Russian numbers.
            1. Kars
              Kars 27 May 2012 22: 55
              -1
              Quote: prispek
              Solonica; arguments please


              What kind of book will we begin to make out?


              * "June 22, or when did the Great Patriotic War begin?" - M .: "Yauza", "Eksmo". 2007. ISBN 5-699-15196-6 (other name "Barrel and hoops")
              * “At peacefully sleeping airfields ...” - M .: “Yauza”, “Eksmo”. 2006. ISBN 5-699-15695-X
              * “23 of June:“ Day M ”” - M .: “Yauza”, “Eksmo”. 2007 ISBN 978-5-699-22304-6
              * “25 of June. Stupidity or aggression? "- M .:" Yauza "," Eksmo. 2008. ISBN 978-5-699-25300-5
              * "Brain Name. The Fake History of the Great War" (317 pages, Moscow, Yauza-EKSMO, first print run in June 2008)
              Quote: prispek
              But I didn’t distinguish between German and ours.

              Then what do you want? What is your highlight ratio? 1 to 7? 1 to 20?
              1. prispek
                prispek 28 May 2012 00: 58
                0
                Yes, no ratio is close to me, neither Krivosheevskoe, nor Solzhenitsinskoe (some names, they speak for themselves). Statistics in general is a science and is even less predictable than history. I am a villager and for me the names on the monuments are not just a set of letters, I grew up and studied with those who bear these names. When you know that the girl's surname at the next desk is engraved on the monument SIX times, you understand that she is ONE of a whole family. And there are several people in the class. And on the memorial there are more names than I have living acquaintances, and more than houses in the village. And every village has such a monument. And you - 1 to 1,3 It's sad ... And Solonik I read two books; "At peacefully sleeping airfields" and "June 25. Stupidity or aggression" Then he began to repeat itself. I don't remember if there was anything about losses. I asked you to clarify your phrase "With losses that Solonik is pushing ....", and you are ready to discuss books. And that's all. Sorry, I have neither the desire nor the opportunity
              2. Kars
                Kars 28 May 2012 01: 30
                0
                Quote: prispek
                "With the losses that Solonik is pushing ....",

                Okay, he agrees with the opinion of Solovyov --- 26 million combat losses of the Red Army
                Quote: prispek
                at the monument SIX times

                And how many times is the name of a German girl that you do not know about?
              3. prispek
                prispek 28 May 2012 22: 25
                0
                "Okay, he agrees with the opinion of Solovyov --- 26 million combat losses of the Red Army" - Well, thank you, you condescended ... "And how many times is the surname of a German girl you don't know about?" -- I dont know. And you?
  • Pessimist
    Pessimist 9 July 2012 01: 33
    0
    Quote: smile
    Koenigsberg was taken in three days with less strength (I mean precisely the units that participated in the assault) and losses than the Germans. The Germans did not take our Stalingrad in six months and lost one and a half times more troops, possessing monstrous superiority in manpower, and here ...

    Vladimir, for some reason, these facts are being hushed up very hard now .... "they filled up with corpses" even a schoolboy knows, they are trying, GADS ...
  • Sergl
    Sergl 24 May 2012 15: 30
    +9
    Comrades!

    Guided bombs, projectile aircraft, ballistic missiles, super-heavy tanks, all this "wunder-waffe" (in the conditions of the Second World War) did the German more harm than good!

    The craving for the creation of "miracle weapons" stems from the Nazi ideology, which is vicious in its essence.

    ------------- (who about what, and bald about tanks) ---------------
    IMHO, even the transfer of some of the German factories to the production of "Panthers" instead of the release of the spent "four" with the inevitable subsidence on the monthly shaft at the beginning of the release - negatively affected the combat readiness of the Wehrmacht. If the Germans concentrated on finishing and modernizing the "four", there would be more sense in the sum. More tanks and spare parts for them.

    The Soviet leadership did not allow to switch to the release of a new model of weapons, if this entailed a decrease in serial production. Unification and mass production.

    Adhere to the Germans such a principle - then it would be even more difficult for us (and allies). But in this case, the Germans would have had to abandon ideology, and without National Socialism it would have been a different Germany.
  • Denis
    Denis 24 May 2012 17: 00
    +1
    and well, that did not bring to mind
    this thing, like many others, could add to already considerable troubles
    and science at that time did not reach normal radio control
  • DUTCH
    DUTCH 25 May 2012 14: 57
    +1
    Oh, how many of these "Pilau" we had .....
  • Black Colonel
    Black Colonel 28 May 2012 19: 04
    +1
    The article is interesting, not oversaturated with terms. And the peasants rushed into the historical and political jungle. The article is not about that. The "product" is interesting, the element base was not ready for such a breakthrough. In general, the Nazis have a lot of new types of weapons. Thank God that many things have not been brought to mind.