Military Review

Rifles by countries and continents. Part of 25. The same winchester

122
For me, getting to know this rifle was getting to know ... weapons at all. We lived in the late 50 of the last century in a private wooden house for two families, and here in our half there were only two rooms, so my grandfather, the former head of the goron during the war years, the school director, was awarded the Order of Lenin and "Badge of Honor ”, Slept on the bed near the door in the cold canopy. But then many lived like that, and it’s clear that I didn’t find anything special about it. And my grandmother slept on the sofa in the hall, well, that though not on the chest, as the grandmothers of my boyfriends slept along Proletarskaya street. A canvas cloak was hanging on the wall next to it, and then somehow looking under it, I found there ... a hefty and heavy gun! Well, since then, when no one was at home, I only played him! The grandfather himself stuffed ammunition for him, chopped a canister out of a lead bar, and then ... taught me to shoot him. Fortunately, the garbage dump for household waste was in our yard directly opposite the porch, about fifty meters away, and in the winter just a cloud of crows flew at her, terribly annoying our chain-stallion Erik. We fired at them, so much so that only feathers flew in different directions. And I was sure that all the hunting rifles ... such!



According to the old memory (and the hands for a long time remember what the head forgot!) It seemed to me very comfortable to hold it in my hands. He also did not seem to me. True, in this case he was without cartridges and without a bayonet.

But then I got into a special school, started learning English from the second grade, and very soon read the inscription “Winchester Model 1895” on it. So the gun was American ?! And then, on the screens of our cinemas, the GED movie “Sons of the Great Bear” went, well, that's all - I understood how really lucky I was. And my grandfather, when I asked him about it, then told me that the hard drive was given to him in 1918, when he, as the head of the food squad, was collecting bread in the villages. Then he perestvolil under hunting cartridges, and so he stayed with him, to me as a souvenir. Then, when the laws on weapons in the USSR were tightened, I had to sell it, but ... I still have the memory of the “first gun” and shooting from it.


Full ammunition: Winchester, clip and bayonet. Is that the belt is missing.

And when, once again, my friend, a collector of weapons, called me and invited me to “that same hard drive”, I immediately went to see him, I really wanted to hold it in my hands. And hold it! And I took the whole picture, as far as the conditions of outside photography allowed. So our series, as you can see, has already reached the number “25”. In my opinion, it's just great that I managed to tell about such a large number of rifles, even if not for all of them, I, unfortunately, managed to hold on. “Buy it,” I say, “Mondragon’s rifle, I really want to dig in it!” “Do you know its price?!” Followed his answer, so how was it with the hard drive? we can hardly meet her. However, on the story about her was.


That's how it looks in full growth.

So, what was the American Winchester M1895 magazine rifle with reloading using a lever lock developed by the famous American gunsmith John Moses Browning and taken into production by the Winchester company in 1895 year? It was prepared for the competition for the best rifle for the National Guard, which was held in 1896 year. However, the first place on it was taken by a gun from the company “Vavidzh”, which presented the original design, which was also controlled by a lever, but ... with a drum shop - Savage Model 1895. The Winchester rifle took only second place. After being hurt, the Winchesters accused the organizers of the contest of tampering with the results and succeeded - the National Guard recalled the contract for the supply of rifles, but did not receive an order for the hard drives of the company!


The receiver, the trigger that had to be cocked before each shot, the guides for the holder and the famous "Henry brace."

In an effort to interest potential buyers, "Winchester" has developed several models of rifles for different cartridges, as an army sample, and for hunting big game. And it is interesting that for quite a long time of its production, and the M1895 of the year was produced from 1895 to 1940 year, its modifications appeared for a variety of cartridges, including 6 mm USN, .30 Army, .30-03, .30-06, .303 British, 7,62 × 54 mm R, .35 Winchester, .38-72 Winchester, .40-72 Winchester and .405 Winchester. The variant Winchester .50 express, which was custom-made by US President Theodore Roosevelt, is also known.


Normal frame sight.

The M1895 rifle was the first rifle offered by Winchester, which had a box-shaped rather than its traditional tubular magazine under the barrel, with a box-shaped store of central location, and not with a tubular barrel-mounted magazine. The new store made it possible to safely use powerful central-ignition rifle cartridges with a pointed-pointed bullet, which was completely impossible when using the old tubular magazine because of the possibility of nipping the previous cartridge with a subsequent bullet. Well, since cartridges with pointed bullets appeared, this design of the store was not suitable for them.


Mount for bayonet and front swivel.

This model has become the most powerful rifle in the range of Winchester rifles, but it is considered that this attempt was not very successful, as the M1895 retained all the main design solutions of the previous generation, and the times have already changed. And, by the way, the M1895 was the last rifle with a shutter drive from the “Henry Brace”, which was developed by John Browning. He no longer engaged in such weapons!


The shutter is open.

History М1895 is quite interesting, and she, too, in general, had a chance to make war. First, the US Army placed an order for the 10 thousand. M1895 caliber .30 / 40 Krag to test it during the Spanish-American War. But the war ended earlier than the first batch of these rifles arrived at the place of use. This batch of rifles was marked with the “.30 US Army” stamp above the chamber, and all of them had a bayonet similar to that of the M1895 Lee Navy rifle. Then a hundred M1895 was handed over to the 33 Volunteer Infantry Regiment for testing in combat during the Philippine-American War (interestingly, the 25 December report from 1899 emphasized that the .30 / 40 Krag was very good for the army). But the remaining 9900 rifles were sold to the M. Harley Company, which in turn sold them to Cuba in 1906, from where they came to Mexico, where ... the insurgents of the peasant general Pancho Villa really liked it!


Store feeder and cartridge fed into the barrel.

When, during the First World War, emissaries of the tsarist government set off around the world in search of rifles, this model, which the company promised to produce in the required quantities, turned out to be most welcome. During the period from 1915 to 1917, about 300 thousand M1895 rifles were ordered for the Russian Imperial Army. It was a very big order and, of course, he brought this firm a lot of revenue. Although the requirements of the Russian side in the design of the rifle had to make a number of changes. First of all, it was necessary to change the barrel under the bullet of the Russian 7,62 × 54 mm R cartridge, replace the chamber and the magazine. The second important change was the two guides mounted on the receiver, which were necessary so that the magazine could be equipped with standard Mosin M1891 rifle clips. In addition, the rifles, issued for Russia, had a slightly elongated barrel and mount for the bayonet. Accordingly, the increased length of the trunk made it necessary to lengthen and forearm. That is, if we consider that all the M1895 rifles were made 426 thousand (from 1895 to 1931 year), and almost 300 thousand were made under the Russian cartridge, it is not surprising that such rifles are still found, as we have in Russia, and abroad! However, in Russia, however, the entire order did not get, and was delivered from 291 to 293 thousands of rifles, which were used during the First World War and during the Civil War.


Of course, it is purely psychologically very strange when, when reloading, a rifle in this way is “decomposed” in your hands. Unusually it somehow ...

It is believed that if you compare the Mosin rifle and the Winchester M1895 rifle, the latter will have a slightly higher rate of fire just due to reloading with the “Henry Bracket”, even though the trigger had to be manually manually recharged each time. However, the M1895 rifles, according to experts, were somewhat more sensitive to contamination, and reloading them with the “Henry brace” in the prone position, as well as in the trench, was rather difficult. The mass of the American rifle was 4,1 kg, length - 1100 mm, with a barrel length 710 mm. Accordingly, the weight of the “trilinea” was equal to 4,5 kg, the length of the infantry rifle was 1306 mm, the length of the barrel 729 mm (infantry). That is, ours was a little longer and heavier, but it was superior to the “American” in reliability and serviceability.


Upper barrel pad on the trunk is missing. Surely the Americans decided to save on wood ?!

Interestingly, the Americans delivered the first batch of rifles later than the appointed date, since the conversion of the rifle to the standards of the Russian army required more work than expected. For some reason, the development of such a seemingly simple part as guides for the Moscow cage, which were fastened to the receiver with screws, turned out to be especially difficult.


The butt and the neck of the butt are traditional in shape and very comfortable.


But what is the mark on the butt (the second on the receiver), experts argue so far. It is believed that this is the stigma of the Russian military acceptance, but is it not known for sure.


This is the stigma on the receiver on the right.

In addition, Winchester considered that the Russian military inspectors were too picky: they required standard tests for the imperial army (although they passed the tests at the manufacturing company), as well as tests using cartridges made in Russia, and not in the US . A number of rifles, they rejected because of the low, as stated, the quality of the wood rifle used to make the box. All this was considered by the Americans as unreasonable demands, but the rifles were nonetheless accepted by our side and in the USA they were sold to civilians.


Well, here everything about this rifle is written, where it was released, by whom and when, as well as what number it has. Conveniently…

МХNUMX rifles, which entered Russia, in the imperial Russian army went into service with the troops stationed in the Baltic States and in Finland, in particular, they were used by parts of the Latvian riflemen. It is estimated that at least nine thousand USSR M1895 survivors from that time sent the Republican government to 1895 by way of military aid to Spain.


The handle of the bayonet with a button stop on the head.


Up to the stop, that is, up to the very fly, we were unable to put on the bayonet, apparently, time affects even the “pieces of iron”. As you can see, the bayonet is mounted on the M1895 under the barrel, but I personally don’t like such a bayonet mount, although it is quite widespread. The fact is that in such a position of the blade, it is good to prick the stomach, but between the ribs it may not pass and the injury will be superficial. It was necessary nevertheless to provide for mounting from the side, so that the blade of the bayonet lay flat. Then he will enter life without difficulty, and between the ribs ...

When it comes to the M1895 hunting modifications, they usually recall such an American president as Theodore Roosevelt, who simply adored this rifle and traveled with her on safari to Africa in 1909 year. But it was also used by many other famous hunters, such as Marty and Osa Johnson, Charles Kottar, writer Stephen Edward White, Garrit Forbes and Elmer Keith, who advised her future president Roosevelt.


It seemed to me that the bayonet rifle certainly influences the balance, but not very much.


Recharging it, wielding this very "Henry brace" is not at all easy. As a child, I adored doing this, playing “warts”, lying on the floor at home ... on a soft carpet. And I was very uncomfortable, I had to roll on my side! And what was it like for soldiers in overcoats on the ground to do under the fire of the German Mauser ?!

In Africa, Roosevelt used two M1895 (both for the .405 Winchester cartridges) and bought two more for his son: one for the same cartridge and the other for the .30-03 Springfield). In his memoirs, Roosevelt called these rifles his "talisman of lions" and rated them very highly. Interestingly, in honor of the 100 anniversary of the anniversary of President Theodore Roosevelt’s presidency, Winchester released special commemorative rifles chambered for .405 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield and .30-40 Krag. And in 2009, two rifles were made in memory of his famous African safari. Moreover, although the marks on them were Browning and Winchester, they were made by the Japanese company Miroku Corp.

Rifles by countries and continents. Part of 25. The same winchester

Winchester advertising poster. The top sample, just the one that was with my grandfather. Only not firm, but peredelny.
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  1. bistrov.
    bistrov. 16 September 2018 07: 36
    +4
    The author indicated incorrect numbers: the barrel length of the Mosin infantry rifle -820mm, the barrel length of the so-called. "Dragoon rifle", which one was produced after the modernization of 1930, and, in fact, is considered our Mosin rifle, since almost all infantry rifles were re-shot after the model of the "Dragoon rifle", has a barrel length of 740 mm, measured personally. Nevertheless, several times I came across other data in the literature, for example, -730mm. Here the author indicated the length of 729mm.
    It is clear that he did not invent it himself, he took it from somewhere, but if you follow the logic, then why is such an "uneven" number taken, namely 729 mm? If this is the number of calibers, as measured by the length of the barrel in artillery, it still does not fit, 729 is not divisible by either 2,54 or 7,62 .. It is not clear.
    1. kalibr
      16 September 2018 08: 03
      +3
      Barrel length, mm
      800 (infantry), 729 (dragoon and Sample 1891 / 30),
      510 (carbine), 600 (Czech)
      Cartridge 7,62 × 54 mm R
      Wikipedia Material
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 16 September 2018 12: 37
        +9
        And what was it like to do this to soldiers in greatcoats on the ground under the fire of German Mausers ?!

        Vyacheslav Olegovich, I went here last weekend for mushrooms. Deciduous forest, boletus, a bunch of shrubs, threshing branches on the face, and indeed it is difficult to pass. In three hours, less than a kilometer went there and back. Mushrooms scored, but tired - the edge. It wasn’t mosquitoes yet! request
        I'm talking about ... like that you read about the war, everything seems to be heroic. what
        And you go yourself, just go! Without any military, light, and not in full gear, having eaten before .... And you begin to understand that those who fought are true heroes. soldier In principle, I agree with Alexei Isaev why winter was chosen for the Soviet-Finnish war. Mosquitoes in the woods ... Not to mention the partisans and fighters of the Second Shock Army. soldier heroes!
        a soldier always has a lot of hardships. And household, and military, also keep weapons clean, it is your life!
        1. figwam
          figwam 16 September 2018 16: 41
          +2
          As you can see, the bayonet is mounted on the M1895 under the barrel, but I personally do not like this bayonet mount, although it is quite widespread. The fact is that with this position of the blade they are well pricked in the stomach, but between the ribs it may not pass and the wound will be superficial. All the same, it was necessary to provide for mounting on the side, so that the bayonet blade lay flat. Then he will enter into life without difficulty, and between the ribs ...

          Well, to write this, you probably need to go to the bayonet at least once ...
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 16 September 2018 16: 44
            +3
            Yes, this is a story I saw. Didn’t you spread it for an hour? what
            uncle fighting. One folded (and set back!) Jaw is worth it .. Hero! soldier
        2. Korsar4
          Korsar4 16 September 2018 23: 40
          +5
          Nice walker. But when for several consecutive hours through the rubble of trees at a speed of about 1 kilometer per hour - one thought: and are there to go on reconnaissance without a piece of fat in your pocket.

          But as a birch sap added strength (the vicinity of Kologriv, May 2008).
        3. Huumi
          Huumi 17 September 2018 13: 17
          +3
          at the beginning of December, there is practically no snow in Karelia, just like frost, but there is no foliage, it can be seen better and the roads freeze, the time was chosen perfectly, but ... 40 years turned out to be abnormally frosty, I myself recently came from near Yaglyarvi, amazingly beautiful and ... dangerously, 2 times grabbed the "spectacle cobra" when something is looking at you - still in the paint ...
          in the photo Jagliajärvi ...
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 17 September 2018 20: 40
            +5
            at the beginning of December there is practically no snow in Karelia like frosts but no foliage, you can see it better and the roads freeze — time was chosen perfectly but .... 40 years turned out to be abnormally frosty

            Isaev is a supporter of exactly the same point of view! soldier
            Thanks for the photo - very beautiful! drinks
    2. gross kaput
      gross kaput 18 September 2018 19: 12
      0
      Quote: bistrov.
      Nevertheless, several times in the literature I met other data, for example, -730mm

      The barrel length of a dragoon rifle is 28,75 inches or in a new way 730,25 mm. In the NSD on the rifle sample 91/30 the barrel length is clearly indicated 730 mm - which was quite understandable and could not be taken into account, especially since they are more than eaten up by production tolerances.
  2. 2329 Carpenter
    2329 Carpenter 16 September 2018 07: 47
    +4
    Well ... Well, even though she is so ...
    Not really "ours": "clamshell", many moving parts, painfully uncomfortable "lying down", "don't forget to pull the trigger", disassembly-assembly: don't forget, don't lose - all the same!
    This is the 19th century, Watson. This, Watson, is a feast! This, doctor, John Moses Browning!
    Compared to the dolbots, the Overstrites brothers, along with their fat, insatiable night cuckoos, are like heaven and earthworms. Not even a spit of the geniuses of the mechanics of the year before last / past centuries ...
  3. san4es
    san4es 16 September 2018 09: 02
    +1
    The new store made it possible to safely use powerful central-fired rifle cartridges with a pointed bullet
    1. kalibr
      16 September 2018 09: 15
      +4
      I was just like that! Only the barrel is smooth, and not rifled and without a sight, of course. Moreover, the trigger had to be cocked with a finger. He didn’t cock the lever, he jammed!
      1. san4es
        san4es 16 September 2018 09: 22
        +3
        Quote: kalibr
        ... Lever he did not cock, jammed!

        ... Time ... honed the trigger mechanism (s) wink
    2. Maki Avellevich
      Maki Avellevich 2 November 2018 20: 03
      +1
      it’s impossible to calmly watch this guy pulling the trigger.
      ugliness
      1. san4es
        san4es 2 November 2018 20: 09
        0
        Quote: Maki Avellevich
        it’s impossible to calmly watch ...

        hi ... The plot is designed for this .. "Director's move" bully
  4. Cat
    Cat 16 September 2018 09: 02
    +4
    As you can see, the bayonet is mounted on the M1895 under the barrel, but I personally do not like this bayonet mount, although it is quite widespread. The fact is that with this position of the blade they are well pricked in the stomach, but between the ribs it may not pass and the wound will be superficial. All the same, it was necessary to provide for mounting on the side, so that the bayonet blade lay flat. Then he will enter into life without difficulty, and between the ribs ...

    Well, you are Vyacheslav Olegovich and the flayer !!! From someone, but from you, like honestly did not expect. laughing
    Or are you a secret admirer of trihedral and tetrahedral Russian bayonets?
    Then this photo is for you personally.

    Sincerely, Kitty!
    1. kalibr
      16 September 2018 09: 10
      +3
      I believe that any business should be done well! If the bayonet is flat, then it should lie horizontally, so ... And the tetrahedral, with all its effectiveness, I do not like - neither you chop wood, nor chop off your fingers, if anything ...
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 16 September 2018 23: 01
        +5
        “If, for example, you’re firing, then mentally firing, because firing in battle is the first thing, and, most importantly, remember that you need to stab the enemy in full lunge, in the chest, with a short blow, and tear out his bayonet shortly back from the chest ... Remember: from the chest short back, so that he does not grab it with his hand ... That's it! P-time - full lunge and p-time-- short back. Then r-one-two! R-one-two! Dip it briefly with your foot, frighten him, the enemy r-one-two-two! ” (author's spelling preserved) - so, according to the memoirs of the famous journalist Vladimir Gilyarovsky, non-commissioned officer Ermilov, "a great master of his craft," taught the soldiers bayonet fighting. It was in 1871, Gilyarovsky then served in the army as volunteers.
        The method of striking “in full lunge, in the chest, with a short stroke” at that time was a relative novelty in the Russian army. Even during the years of the Crimean War (1853-1856), Russian soldiers beat with a bayonet in a different way. The writer – historian Sergeev – Tsensky described this technique as follows:
        "Russian soldiers were taught to beat with a bayonet only in the stomach and from top to bottom, and, having hit, lower the butt, so that the bayonet rose upward, turning inside out: it was useless even to take such wounded to the hospital."
        In Russia, the Red Cross Society was created in May 1867 under the name "Society for the Care of the Wounded and Sick Warriors." It was here that I had to face the requests of the international community to refuse a terrible blow to the stomach. As an alternative, the chest blow described above was chosen.

        But they still didn’t refuse to strike with a bayonet in the stomach -
        The main recommendations for bayonet fighting at the beginning of the last century were set forth in the book of Alexander Lugar “The Guide to Fencing with Bayonets”, published in 1905 after the end of the Russo-Japanese War -
        The blow is applied from the bottom up, with the knees bent, and sent to the abdomen. They beat it off by turning the gun with a bayonet to the ground, taking the enemy’s weapons to the left or right.
        As we see, Lugar does not propose to abandon the bayonet in the stomach. True, he does not recommend raising a bayonet in the stomach, "turning inside out". Times are not the same, yet a humane twentieth century in the yard ...

        So, dear Vyacheslav Olegovich nobody refuses to strike the enemy with a bayonet in the stomach despite the different conventions and other "humanistic" trends there!
        I read about the methods of slaughtering seals and seals! The compassionate "humanists" decided that it was impossible to kill pinnipeds with a blow to the head with a stick (this was the name of such a stick among our northerners - chekmar)! Not humane!
        In Western countries, experiments were carried out - they shot, poisoned and hit with a discharge current unfortunate pinnipeds! After all these experiments, it turned out that a stick hit on the head is the most humane way of slaughtering seals and seals! The beast loses consciousness and then dies!
        And the human abdominal cavity is full of different vital organs and arteries with veins!
    2. Mikado
      Mikado 16 September 2018 12: 21
      +4
      Well, you are Vyacheslav Olegovich and the flayer !!! From someone, but from you, like honestly did not expect. laughing

      Good day to all honest dear company! Vladislav, and let’s, I live as a donor? wink
      pay attention to the ways of attaching the bayonet-knife in relation to the blade. Having looked through a number of photos of Mauser-98, M-16, Arisaki, I came to the conclusion that the blade of the attached bayonet is directed downward (by the way, if you enter the word "arisaka" in Google and immediately start looking at the photos, then almost immediately we will see Vyacheslav our Olegovich with her wink )
      that is, I have a feeling that mounting a bayonet-knife on an AK with the blade up is justified. For, it seems, the blow goes from bottom to top by inertia, and in this case the blade is more open. hi
      Or are you a secret admirer of trihedral and tetrahedral Russian bayonets?

      the bayonet for the three-ruler was sharpened not "on the point", but "on the plane." Like a screwdriver. Why? passes better and not stuck! request there is a familiar search engine, a wonderful man, I reviewed a number of bayonets - all "flat". soldier
      And I do not like the tetrahedral one with all its effectiveness - neither you chop wood, nor chop off your fingers, if anything ...

      I agree with Vyacheslav Olegovich. I add - and wear only on a rifle, for the scabbard is not provided (with the exception of the cavalry - our cavalry on the scabbard sheath had special mounts for the bayonet).

      my friends, consult on the blade, who can! drinks I, in principle, even guess who exactly can .... wink drinks
      1. Cat
        Cat 16 September 2018 15: 00
        +3
        Good day Nikolai - "and you are Brutus"? laughing
        Here we communicate, we communicate, and he
        ... that is, I have a feeling that mounting a bayonet-knife on an AK with the blade up is justified. For, it seems, the blow goes from bottom to top by inertia, and in this case the blade is more open.

        No offense! I'm kidding!!!
        For proper bayonet fighting, the last in the USSR were equipped with a 44-year-old carbine (based on Mosinki) and an SKS. Moreover, both were equipped with integral bayonets, the first with a needle, and the second with a knife. The bayonet with a blade on Simonov’s self-loading carbine in a fighting position is located below, which, in addition to the traditional strike in the Russian (Soviet) army, pokes another five to six shock and defensive moves. Communicating with smart people who were engaged in bayonet fighting, everyone scolded AK for the location of the bayonet blade to the top. Although at one time they explained to me that the bayonet position on the AK was forced due to the need to cut the wire and due emphasis on the handle. Although honestly I did not like the bayonet AK and AKM because of their fragility.
        Regarding the sharpening of the needle bayonets, Nikolai, you are absolutely right.
        Sincerely, Kitty!
        1. svp67
          svp67 16 September 2018 15: 11
          +3
          Quote: Kotischa
          For the right bayonet battle, the last in the USSR were equipped with a 44-year-old carbine (based on Mosinki) and SKS

          The first AK was equipped with the same double-edged blade. In general, the prototype of the 6X1 bayonet-knife was the bayonet for the Tokarev SVT-38 self-loading rifle. Outwardly similar, only with a slightly longer blade and a slightly modified mount was 6X2. They were given to us at the school for internal service. I remember that their steel was cool, as was the balance. From 5..7 meters they stuck into the wall easily and not forcibly. And most importantly, they did not break down, like their successors 6X3 and 6x4 for AKM.
          Yes, and modern 6X5 has a more classical form.
          1. gross kaput
            gross kaput 16 September 2018 20: 56
            +4
            Quote: svp67
            The first AK was equipped with the same double-edged blade

            The first AK bayonets did not have at all, the development of a bayonet for AK only began in 1952, the first appeared 6X1 but it was not mass-produced, the series went 6X2 and became a standard bayonet for a lightweight AK machine (in the west this machine is called AK type3) and it was in 1954 i.e. five years after the adoption of the AK into service.
            Quote: svp67
            double edged blade

            The 6X2 bayonet was never double-edged - in spite of the dagger-like appearance, only one side has a rudimentary sharpening, when it adjoins the machine, this side looks up.
            1. svp67
              svp67 16 September 2018 21: 53
              +3
              Quote: gross kaput
              and it was in 1954 i.e. five years after the adoption of the AK into service.

              In 1955, the movie "Maxim Perepelitsa" was released and the main character with his comrades with AK, but no bayonets
              1. gross kaput
                gross kaput 16 September 2018 23: 04
                +2
                AND? What is this talking about?
                1. svp67
                  svp67 16 September 2018 23: 13
                  +3
                  Quote: gross kaput
                  AND? What is this talking about?

                  Confirmation of your words. Well, the industry was not able to provide or did not want to show the presence of this upgrade. Since the bayonet on the SCS in the film shine regularly
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 17 September 2018 16: 51
                    +2
                    In the same 1955 the film "Soldier Ivan Brovkin" was released. In the film, the protagonist and his colleagues shoot and pass the obstacle course using the "1944 model carbine"! So the gunners weren't supposed to have more modern weapons? Let's say the same SCS? Or was it a disguise? hi
                    1. Mikado
                      Mikado 17 September 2018 20: 43
                      +4
                      Let's say the same SCS? Or was it a disguise?

                      God knows, but in "Maxim Perepelitsa" an order of magnitude more weapons were shown. And AK, and SKS, and Mi-1, and BTR-152 ... fellow maybe .. who agreed? what
                      1. hohol95
                        hohol95 17 September 2018 22: 59
                        +2
                        Everything is possible!!!
                        But it is also possible in the shown type of troops - Perepelitsa got into the paratroopers and participated in major exercises! Brovkin ended up in a battalion or regiment of M-30 howitzers! but I was wrong! The film "Soldier Ivan Brovkin" shows both SKS and AK-47 and of course carbines of the 1944 model!
                        Here, of course, Brovkin’s and Perepelitsa’s technique can’t be compared with the technique - Ivan is beaten by 100% to MAX!
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 16 September 2018 15: 22
          +6
          Fragility is not the right word! When I served in Murmansk, in our armory there was a pair of bayonet knives specially for orderlies, with the tips of the blades broken off by a centimeter and a half. For how does the day attendant spend his time at the "nightstand"? That's right, mostly sleeping while standing, leaning on the handle of a bayonet-knife stuck in the chipboard of the wall decoration. So, bayonet knives do not stand up to such competition.
        3. Mikado
          Mikado 16 September 2018 15: 42
          +4
          Although at one time they explained to me that the bayonet position on the AK was forced due to the need to cut the wire and due emphasis on the handle. Although honestly I did not like the bayonet AK and AKM because of their fragility.

          held a couple of times. I heard about fragility. And the shape resembles a "bowie knife".
          which allows, in addition to the traditional strike in the Russian (Soviet) army, to poke another five to six strikes and defensive techniques.

          seriously - how many have been trained in this? I think units of veterans. The war has changed! hi
          Moreover, both were equipped with integral bayonets, the first with a needle, and the second with a knife.

          but after that the Chinese began to equip their AK with such bayonet-knives - mentality, sir! request better than ten Chinese in the night with bayonets than one professional. On March 2, 1969, at Damansky, the Chinese tried their utmost to use cold steel - the only survivor of the deceased group was Sergeant Rabovich, border guard Serebrov, ours were recaptured with many bayonet wounds. angry
          So, bayonet-knives do not withstand such competition.

          Anton - we had a saying that fighters manage to break something that in principle does not break! laughing drinks fighters are always the same. Itself was similar, but I was only given a club and a walkie-talkie. Moreover, with a club it was strictly forbidden in the patrol in the winter to count the rods at the fence when walking - it breaks! laughing drinks
          And most importantly, they did not break down, like their successors 6X3 and 6x4 for AKM.

          Sergei - in the 90s there was a series of articles in the "Soldier of Fortune" magazine "Hot head knife". I was still a schoolboy then, but I read it with interest. All the disadvantages of" knives for survival like Rambo. "The first weak point was the handle. Bayonet knives for AKM and, especially, for AK-74 were also criticized (yes , fragility from throwing!), and it was proposed to return to a simple bayonet-dagger from the AK. hi
          Good day Nikolai - "and you are Brutus"?

          yes, and I am Brutus! You, Vladislav, still ask why the fanatic Mark Rat-Slayer is a "good man"! laughing drinks
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 16 September 2018 16: 21
            +3
            Well, I served in the air defense, there similar destroyers are screened out at the factory platoon in the second month of service.
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 16 September 2018 16: 27
              +5
              I'm in the police. Other specifics, and bayonets are issued only to the guard of honor. request
          2. svp67
            svp67 16 September 2018 16: 29
            +2
            hi
            Quote: Mikado
            Bayonet-knives for AKM and, especially, for AK-74 (yes, fragility from throwing!) Were also criticized, and it was suggested to return to a simple bayonet-dagger from AK.
            I had the pleasure during the service to get acquainted with the American bayonet-knife for the M-16. Although outwardly it looks like AKMovsky, but steel is better ...
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 16 September 2018 16: 39
              +2
              I had the pleasure during the service to get acquainted with the American bayonet-knife for the M-16. Although outwardly it looks like AKMovsky, but steel is better ...

              somehow, by cadets, in 2001, they caught a private trader with a friend in order to get home. A man turned out to be confident, squinting under a professional. All the way he talked about what he shot for his life. Including, from M-16. His words: "True, I don't understand how you can get somewhere from it ..." My friends, we have known each other for a long time what we heard - and said so. drinks Do not hit! drinks
              I have my opinion - please tell us! hi As you know, I did not hold this assault rifle in my hands. I held little weapons when shooting .. request just AK-74, SVD, PM, TT (the handle is extremely uncomfortable!), a Margolin pistol in two versions and a Nagant in a sporting performance of the 50s (how many officers paid their lives for a slow reload - I can’t imagine!). And our colonel-teacher Goncharov, while we were shooting with machine guns, was shooting an artillery carbine of 1938 at the shooting range, like a hunting weapon! soldier
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 16 September 2018 18: 58
                +2
                He suggested that, and more than once, we went to the BCS to shoot, the M-16 was not guaranteed, but, the shotgun was a lot!
              2. svp67
                svp67 16 September 2018 23: 17
                +2
                Quote: Mikado
                As you know, I did not hold this assault rifle in my hands.

                I was more fortunate, and I was holding M-16 and M-4, but I didn't have to shoot ... I just saw how others were doing it. And I want to say that it is a pleasant "thing" in the hands and very applied.
                1. gross kaput
                  gross kaput 17 September 2018 12: 36
                  +2
                  Quote: svp67
                  I didn’t have to shoot.

                  Now this is not a problem, it’s a pleasant thing, even the Chinese Arch collects 1,5-2 minutes per 100 meters by our poor barnaul. A couple of weeks ago I took my son with me to the shooting range, I fired with a friend from SKS, he is from the Chinese M4, my son started shooting from SKS and then from M6, and I came to the conclusion that M4 has more returns laughing I had to explain to this truant physicist that my weighted SCS is two times heavier than the most lightweight compared to the stock M4 Yaroslav - a generation of Pepsi pancake. laughing
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 17 September 2018 15: 03
                    +3
                    And you didn’t explain the difference in ammunition? hi
                    1. gross kaput
                      gross kaput 17 September 2018 21: 54
                      +4
                      He already knows this, for him it was simply a shock that, knowing the difference in ammunition, he believed that the difference in perceived recoil depends only on the cartridge - and it turns out also on the mass of the weapon smile Well, the second revelation for him was that a weapon with a silencer, even at the sound level, is far from being as silent as in movies and games, and two or three Pechenegs working at the same time at 15 meters create so much noise that no computer audio system has ever dreamed laughing Although what already surprised me - he quickly got used to the callimator sight and quite confidently, albeit with an emphasis, struck from the SCS the head gong at 100 and the "half-chest" 35cm gong at 150.
                      1. kalibr
                        18 September 2018 12: 52
                        +3
                        A good father and a good son!
        4. gross kaput
          gross kaput 16 September 2018 21: 01
          +2
          Quote: Kotischa
          Moreover, both were equipped with integral bayonets, the first with a needle, and the second with a knife.

          Simonov’s carbine initially also had a needle bayonet, the blade appeared only in 1950 - i.e. one year after the start of mass production.
          Quote: Kotischa
          . Although at one time they explained to me that the bayonet position on the AK was forced due to the need to cut the wire and due emphasis on the handle.

          Someone didn’t explain correctly to you - for cutting wire, the bayonet is disconnected from the machine and connected to the sheath - just for fun, imagine how convenient it is to cut the wire from a prone position with the bayonet connected to the machine. The second nuance and 6X2 and the SVT38 bayonet and some versions of the SVT40 bayonet adjoined the weapon with the blade up - but paradoxically, they are not intended for cutting wire.
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 16 September 2018 15: 32
        +5
        Nikolai, have you ever tried to cut something with a bayonet-knife from AK ?! In my opinion, the functionality of this device is limited by two points: opening canned food and cutting wire (a copper cable cuts badly, bites).
        1. svp67
          svp67 16 September 2018 16: 21
          +3
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          In my opinion, the functionality of this device is limited by two points: opening canned food and cutting wire (a copper cable cuts badly, bites).

          Well, you can use it quite well and how to use the hammer quite successfully, for which you need to insert the bayonet-knife eye into the scabbard and hit the hammer with the metal part
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 16 September 2018 16: 49
            +5
            I agree, I missed it, but it’s more convenient to use an ax with an ax from any ZIP.
          2. mmaxx
            mmaxx 17 September 2018 04: 43
            +1
            Yes, nothing like that. This is, like, "veterans" show this crap to spirits. But I haven't seen a single nail hammered in this way. After two blows, everyone pulls out the bayonet-knife from its scabbard and pounds on the nails for nothing. A lump on the handle. Therefore, a dull blade is much more practical than a sharp one. A person who is sharpened even on canned food bends. And the nail is such that only a stand in Lenin's room (or whatever it is now) can be hung
        2. figwam
          figwam 16 September 2018 16: 54
          +1
          Have you ever tried to cut something with a bayonet-knife from AK ?!

          Bayonets from AK in peacetime are not sharpened to exclude injuries of 17-18 year old children.
          1. Warrior Hamilton
            Warrior Hamilton 26 October 2018 17: 48
            0
            Yes, no one sharpened them (or sharpened)! The men of the day brushed sandpaper every day and these weapons turned into a round sausage ....... soldier
      3. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 16 September 2018 15: 43
        +5
        Quote: Mikado
        advise on the blade,

        On what? wink A Soviet-style checker, bayonet rings were made for rank and file and junior commanders. Which is higher, either pre-war, or production since the end of the war, lower - military hard years. I was more interested in the ChiZ stigma on Winchester, and I did not really find the info on it.
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 16 September 2018 16: 06
          +3
          A Soviet-style checker, bayonet rings were made for rank and file and junior commanders. Which is higher, either pre-war, or production since the end of the war, lower - military hard years.

          but didn’t they do it for ordinary people, Vladimir? what Isaev had a photo where the Germans look at a similar saber in a sheath with bayonet mounts. soldier hmm .. bribing knowledge! drinks
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 16 September 2018 16: 18
            +2
            Quote: Mikado
            but didn’t they do it for ordinary people, Vladimir?

            So I wrote.
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            the bayonet rings were made for the rank and file and junior commanders

            Yes, I once wrote an article on drafts, I collected material for a month, until the laptop burned out. Spit, in general, the topic is too extensive. Look carefully at the photo, the second one is easier, during the war years they did it, the jib (top) was not decorated, and the wedge was rolled by rolling. (although the photo is not very, then I can be mistaken somewhere, I would look at the stigma). hi
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 16 September 2018 16: 29
              +4
              Yes, I once wrote an article on drafts, I collected material for a month, until the laptop burned out. Spit, in general, the topic is too extensive. Look carefully at the photo, the second one is easier, during the war years they did it, the jib (top) was not decorated, and the wedge was rolled by rolling. (although the photo is not very, then I can be mistaken somewhere, I would look at the stigma). hi

              and it doesn’t seem to you, Vladimir, that you would get a wonderful article on a topic about which no one has written yet? wink yes
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 16 September 2018 16: 51
                +5
                Quote: Mikado
                about which no one has written yet?

                But I was here, and not one. No, the topic is too vast. And I already got everything in my head. They ordered, for example, the Cossacks from the Belgian Tanner, that order was placed by the Germans in Solingen, the blades were taken to Russia, the arms were made by some Pupkin and son, the scabbard was Khryushkin and the grandson, then a lump from the tsar came to them and the reform started. And despite the fact that each army set its own models. And on the Internet, so much nonsense has been written that each Old has to be checked at least twice. And then there is no certainty that everything is right. According to the stigma - it’s generally darkness, I didn’t understand why they put it on the XiZ hard drives. These winchesters were ordered through England, you will not find the end. No I do not want.
                1. Mikado
                  Mikado 19 September 2018 20: 38
                  +3
                  These winchesters were ordered through England, you will not find the end. No I do not want.

                  Victor Nikolaevich Curious will find for sure! yes I give a tooth .. soldier Yes, here’s the most unnecessary and painful tooth and give! wink drinks
                  1. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 20 September 2018 01: 58
                    +2
                    Quote: Mikado
                    Victor Nikolaevich Curious will find for sure!

                    I doubt it. But, since I am not smart in Aglitsky, it can. As I think, in the USA our acceptance was, and it is necessary to find out that there are such X and Z. Or maybe it’s just Kharkov instrumental ... But ... here it is. There is infa that the rifles were delivered a little more than 2993 pieces, and a certain batch was rejected, and it went on sale to our Chukchi.
                    1. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 20 September 2018 02: 13
                      +2
                      Typo. A little more than 293000 was delivered to us.
                    2. Mikado
                      Mikado 20 September 2018 11: 20
                      +4
                      and she went on sale to our Chukchi.

                      I immediately recall the kind film "The Chief of Chukotka", in which the Chukchi are shown as rabid pacifists. Although two hundred years before that, they were in awe and involuntary allocation of a chair to all neighbors - they really were warriors.. It would be very interesting if someone would write about it. drinks Because only Samsonov wrote about the Far East, and then about the sale of Alaska - well, you remember, a glorious time was in February last year, under the name "All against everyone on the forum". laughing
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 20 September 2018 20: 58
                        +4
                        I recall an old joke:
                        "In the polar taiga, the exploration party meets the Chukchi. The latter throws up his rifle. The leader of the party, who is familiar with the confidential, comes forward:
                        - Chukchi, why are you, it's me, the party leader !!!
                        Chukchi, jerking the shutter:
                        -Chukchi knows who we have the head of the Party! "
                2. Curious
                  Curious 20 September 2018 22: 08
                  +2
                  "These Winchesters ordered through England, end you will not find. No I do not want."
                  "Just think, binomial Newton!", Although if you look endmay not be found.
                  In fact, there is no secret here and there is no need to look for anything special. It is enough to turn to the history of the Russian Procurement Committee and the organization of orders for military property in the United States during World War I. revolvers and cartridges for them ", Belgrade, 1936.
                  The fact is that due to a lack of finances, on September 30, 1915, the Russian and English governments signed a financial agreement, according to which, from October 1, 1915 to October 1, 1916, a loan was opened to the Russian government. Cash allocation was carried out monthly at 25 million f. Art. The agreement stated that the loan was granted for payments under contracts already entered into force prior to this agreement in the United Kingdom, Canada, the USA and Japan, concluded by the Imperial Government for its needs. In the summer of 1916, a new financial agreement was concluded between the two states, according to which, despite all the requests of the Russian side to increase the advance payment, the monthly amount allocated for purchases, including the USA, remained unchanged - 25 million pounds. Art.
                  In this regard, the English side, which financed Russian orders in the United States, strictly controlled any expenses from the loan. Representatives of the British authorities repeatedly reported to the head of the Anglo-Russian Committee Lieutenant General E.K. Germonius that orders independently made by a committee led by Major General A.V. Sapozhnkovym, concluded at high purchase prices. In some cases, according to the British, headed by A.V. Sapozhnikov committee concluded contracts with unreliable commercially viable companies. Here the complaints of the British are absolutely true, since a cloud of mediators and swindlers was feeding around Russian military orders in the United States, and even the chamberlain of the imperial palace was involved in scandals.
                  As a result, since 1916, the Procurement Committee in America had to place all its orders through the intermediary of the banking house of J. Morgan, who appointed his representative to the committee. The English general Ellershaw became the representative of the British government on the Procurement Committee in New York.
                  After these innovations, the ordering scheme began to look as follows. The Russian Procurement Committee ascertained the need to order a particular weapon, provided the British-Russian Committee in London with detailed information on the deadlines, the maximum unit price and the entire amount of the necessary loan. The English-Russian Committee, through the company Morgan and Co., provided the Procurement Committee with a list of companies capable of fulfilling this order and the conditions for its implementation. If you agree to the terms and conditions with the intermediary of the company Morgan and Co., the Procurement Committee signed a contract with the relevant company. Morgan and Co. in this case acted as an official agent of the British government and guaranteed payment of completed contracts. As can be seen in such a system of placing orders, there was no longer any place for intermediaries, and, consequently, for financial frauds during procurement and placement of orders. In fact, the company of J. Morgan became the main intermediary of the tsarist government in placing orders in the United States, receiving corresponding dividends.
                  This is with regard to orders through England "Winchesters".
                  1. Curious
                    Curious 20 September 2018 22: 12
                    +2
                    Now on the brands, in particular, on the mysterious "KhiZ".

                    This is the book "American Rifle Orders for the Allies."
                    1. Curious
                      Curious 20 September 2018 22: 18
                      +1
                      It also contains an article about the "Russian Winchester".

                      The article is very detailed.
                      1. Curious
                        Curious 20 September 2018 22: 45
                        +3
                        Attention is paid in it to literally all the brands that were on the "Russian Winchester", including "KhiZ".

                        Fig 16 - Russian inspection stamp on the right side of the receiver. Photo - Bill Chronister
                        I think that one does not need to be a great specialist in English to translate the caption under the photo "Stamp of Russian acceptance on the right side of the receiver".
                        Between the manufacture and dispatch of rifles to their destination, they were to be inspected by Russian receivers. For this, as part of the procurement
                        committee was organized by the artillery acceptance committee
                        chaired by Major General A. V. Sapozhnikov. Composed of
                        This commission included senior and junior surveyors, engineers,
                        equipment, etc., a total of 78 people.
                        On this list is No. 20 Senior Acceptor Khatuntsev Sergey Petrovich, No. 21 is Zadde Artemy Yakovlevich.
                        These names are very often found in documents of the Special Meeting to discuss state defense activities related to the reception of
                        weapons ordered for Russia in the United States. Exactly
                        they were engaged in accepting rifles of the Winchester system of different samples,
                        steel peak etc.
                        Therefore, I consider the version of N. A. Ovodkov that "KhiZ" is nothing more than a personal stigma (capital letters of surnames) of this group of senior
                        receivers, consisting of two people: Colonel Sergei Petrovich
                        Khatuntsev and captain Artemy Yakovlevich Zadde.
    3. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 16 September 2018 15: 42
      +6
      Mmmda, in the pool ...
      "But in my throat I managed to stick
      And there two times turn
      Your weapon. He howled
      Darted with all my strength
      And froze ... "
      "Mtsiri" M.Yu. Lermontov
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 16 September 2018 16: 14
        +2
        Mmmda, in the pool ...

        Once I met a very modest and beautiful woman. And then she told me this ... that since then I have been calling her "quiet pool".. wink drinks
        And there twice turn His arms.

        count is not our method! this is the method of stubborn Ethiopians (who managed to disable the Italian wedge heel in this way), bearded partisans, fighters with Count Dracula (it seems that someone even wrote an article on vampires .. here, I don’t remember who! Mi .. Mi .. pah, or Mikado, or Mikhailov Nikolai .. what I don’t remember anymore! he also has a gray fluffy cat), or the method of the stuffy and bald Timofei Bazhenov personally! fellow
        Our method is only steel. Although .. got a friend of mine in the face not so long ago. Although the CCM to fight! hi now .. attention .. wants to buy a training knife made of plastic - everyone who served on this knife worked out the techniques of blocking and disarming. And what .. what commendable choice! soldier The weapon is not .. request
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 16 September 2018 16: 18
          +3
          Kadochnikov considers plastic knives pampering.
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 16 September 2018 16: 31
            +7
            Kadochnikova, too, is considered by many to be pampering. laughing I don’t know, haven’t tried it. I grew a belly, overgrown with a cat, I earn money, I dream of a "still pool". recourse drinks
            1. Cat
              Cat 16 September 2018 17: 43
              +5
              Quote: Mikado
              I don’t know, haven’t tried it. I grew a belly, overgrown with a cat, I earn money, I dream of a "still pool". recourse drinks

              Now a certain cat by Nikolai Mikhailov sits on the couch, nicknamed Mikado and "I think presses" has grown a belly, overgrown with the owner, the owner earns money for "whiskas", damn it, change something in this life! God forbid, the owner's dreams of a "quiet pool" will come true, and practice shows "quiet pools" burst into the house on a vacuum cleaner, holding a broom in his hand and with a battle cry "scatter"! laughing
              Nicholas no offense, just kidding!
              Sincerely, Kitty!
              1. Mikado
                Mikado 16 September 2018 19: 32
                +3
                God forbid, the owner's dreams of a "quiet pool" will come true, and practice shows "quiet pools" burst into the house on a vacuum cleaner, holding a broom in his hand and with a battle cry "scatter"!

                Vladislav, no jokes! drinks All women are the first to do .. what? request That's right - they make a cat defeated in the rights! stop they say that if you are a cat, then sleep at night behind the door, and your place is near the toilet. negative No, it is! drinks
        2. Curious
          Curious 16 September 2018 21: 55
          +3
          "... wants to buy a plastic training knife. It is not a weapon. "
          The aluminum baseball bat is also not a weapon, despite the fact that it is much more effective than a plastic knife.
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 17 September 2018 20: 47
            +4
            The aluminum baseball bat is also not a weapon, despite the fact that it is much more effective than a plastic knife.

            I only got wooden legs, so far scars, in ten years. what
            1. Curious
              Curious 17 September 2018 20: 54
              +3
              I mean, if your acquaintance wants to certainly carry some kind of "weapon" with him, then it's better to use a bat, since it's easier to own it. Well, a stick for Russian hockey is possible.
              1. Mikado
                Mikado 17 September 2018 21: 55
                +5
                Well, a stick for Russian hockey is possible.

                why for hockey? belay or golf club - only against monkeys? belay I have a wonderful interlocutor whom I love and respect very much .. just because he is like that and he is! .. and so, somehow he beat in the hotel room the unbelievable leader of these same monkeys who climbed into the room, and crawling along the suitcases - and strong, bastard, arrogant, and teeth - like a pit bull! fellow angry exactly what a golf club and beat! soldier And the rest of the business trip went peacefully, for all the monkeys bypassed the Soviet metallurgist! drinks
                seriously - he needs to go to church, and not buy a knife. hi Over the past year, and the beginning of this - continuous failures and losses, often out of the blue. First, the father died, then twice he got hit on the head from a hooligan (and he didn’t start himself!), Then .. while walking, he came across an iron pin with his foot! No, this is only to the church .... request
                1. Curious
                  Curious 17 September 2018 22: 00
                  +4
                  A golf club in our area still looks foreign, and it’s still rather weak against an object with a decent mass. A club for Russian hockey is the most common sports equipment. By the way, if you have appropriate acquaintances, it can be made of titanium, for example. This seriously improves its performance.
                2. hohol95
                  hohol95 17 September 2018 22: 47
                  +4

                  Yes, you can twist things with such a club!
                  A friend of mine drove a meter-long piece of stranded copper cable in the car — it was such a flexible baton!
                  1. Mikado
                    Mikado 18 September 2018 00: 42
                    +5
                    By the way, if you have appropriate acquaintances, it can be made of titanium, for example. This seriously improves its performance.

                    Yes, you can twist things with such a club!

                    Alexey and Victor Nikolaevich! And after that, both of you and Anton will assure me that Savage Mark Krysoboi - not a good person? request drinks I won’t believe it at all! wink Centurion Mark was generally the greatest humanist, it seems .... belay drinks
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 20 September 2018 19: 58
                      +1
                      We will not assure you. Simply, "use what is at hand, and don't look for something else." About 25 years ago I was shown how to tie a person with a chair. Now I don't remember much, but if necessary I will reproduce it.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  5. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 16 September 2018 10: 08
    +3
    Thank you. Very exciting and informative. I read these articles with interest)))
  6. Curious
    Curious 16 September 2018 10: 24
    +5
    "An advertising poster for the Winchester company. The upper sample is exactly the one that my grandfather had. Not a branded one, but a modified one."
    Judging by how he got to your grandfather, the Winchester was just one of those that were intended for the Russian army, that is, under the Russian patron.
    Such trunks were usually drilled under the 32nd, less often under the 28th caliber.
    1. kalibr
      16 September 2018 11: 09
      +3
      Just under 28, he was!
  7. Vova Kabaev
    Vova Kabaev 16 September 2018 15: 51
    -4
    "We lived at the end of the 50s of the last century in a private wooden house for two families ..."

    And what, without specifying about the last century, someone would have thought about the year before last? Without idiotic clarifications in any way?
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 16 September 2018 16: 17
      +6
      And what, without specifying about the last century, someone would have thought about the year before last? Without idiotic clarifications in any way?

      You have just demonstrated your intellect and ability to communicate. Go learn. Get wiser (what a strong doubt) - come. No. and indeed - go online only when you get wiser. hi
    2. kalibr
      16 September 2018 17: 21
      +3
      No way Vova! This is my style.
      1. Cat
        Cat 16 September 2018 17: 47
        +5
        Vyacheslav Olegovich next time throw footnotes on the mathematics textbook for the first grade "apple plus one more apple" !!!
        Yours!
  8. gross kaput
    gross kaput 16 September 2018 20: 15
    +3
    even though you had to manually cock the trigger before cocking the shutter.
    No, it wasn’t required, the trouble with not putting the trigger on a platoon while reloading is a known problem with the worn M1895.
    In addition, the axes of the levers wear out and the holes for them are broken as a result of which the reloading becomes very difficult with jamming and mashing.
    Something taken away from me passed m1895, someone didn’t shoot so much but played a lot of cowboys, recharged terribly, rummaged in his guts, and could not stand it, it was interesting how he would work with normal axes - he opened the holes and made axes for them increased diameter - and the miracle reloading became very easy and smooth.
    1. kalibr
      16 September 2018 20: 35
      +3
      Clear! That's why it is believed that his rate of fire was higher than that of 3-line. So my sample, like the one that I received from my grandfather, and the one in these photos ... just ... bad! Only manually cocked !!! Thank!
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 16 September 2018 20: 51
        +3
        Here is a video how it should work with nova
        https://youtu.be/TqgupgJzPlQ
        but here already a living Winchester who doesn’t always get on a combat platoon
        https://youtu.be/hOYf7_gqOvs?t=213
      2. Curious
        Curious 16 September 2018 21: 46
        +3
        Weapons love affection and lubrication. Give it to a good gunsmith for repair.
  9. kalibr
    17 September 2018 07: 56
    +1
    Quote: Curious
    good gunsmith in repair.

    In Penza there are none!
    1. Curious
      Curious 17 September 2018 12: 36
      +2
      Bring to me.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 17 September 2018 14: 37
        +3
        So the rifle is gone.
      2. Mikado
        Mikado 17 September 2018 20: 55
        +3
        Bring to me.

        no, look at him, everything, everybody look at him! laughing when I suggested he finish the Czech rifle, he stubbornly denied himself, and nodded to the Criminal Code! wink drinks And now, they say, "bring"! wink drinks You really, Victor Nikolaevich, decide! drinks especially: "bring". wink So the very first border guards will take Caliber for the fifth point with special cynicism. What will we read then? what drinks no - let him be without a gun, but with all of us, happy and content! good
        1. Curious
          Curious 17 September 2018 21: 04
          +2
          As I understood from previous articles, a familiar collector of Shpakovsky collects MMG, that is, weapons that make certain alterations (deactivate) are made into the construction, cut along the barrel channel to 2/3 of its length not less than 4 mm wide;
          it is possible to remove part of the chamber,
          complete or partial removal of the hammer, cut of the seat of the hammer, spring of the hammer, hammer part;
          complete or partial removal of the gas piston,
          removal of a rammer, extractor, cartridge ejector;
          removal of the left or right flange in the clip or store.
          Well, certification is required. After that, you can carry, forward, store at home on the carpet.
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 17 September 2018 21: 28
            +4
            Well, certification is required. After that, you can carry, forward, store at home on the carpet.

            honestly, I’m not aware of the intricacies of legislation, Viktor Nikolaevich. recourse I managed to shoot at the shooting range, I’m not fond of hunting, therefore .. request I am a little indifferent to weapons. hi Knife "Kizlyar" is to go for mushrooms, it is not cold - what else is needed for happiness! drinks
            1. Curious
              Curious 17 September 2018 21: 49
              +3
              Yes, I also seemed to be on fire, but I am not indifferent to weapons, especially to hunting ones.
              1. Mikado
                Mikado 17 September 2018 22: 07
                +3
                especially hunting.

                The samurai’s sword hangs on my wall, and the knife lies in the trunk. soldier I think someday I’ll mature - we’ll go shoot with Anton! drinks
          2. kalibr
            18 September 2018 12: 51
            +3
            Namely, all his weapons are deactivated. Usually the holes in the barrel are drilled and the firing pin is sharpened. And there are certificates for everything.
          3. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 20 September 2018 20: 02
            +1
            It is, and I wrote about people who are engaged in the reverse process. So they are good gunsmiths.
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 17 September 2018 14: 42
      +4
      Not all such specialists advertise their activities.
      1. Curious
        Curious 17 September 2018 16: 58
        +3
        Usually in a normal weapons store there is always a master gunsmith. Another question is his qualifications.
        1. kalibr
          18 September 2018 12: 47
          +2
          Quote: Curious
          Usually in a normal weapons store there is always a master gunsmith. Another question is his qualifications.

          We don’t have one!
          1. Curious
            Curious 18 September 2018 12: 57
            +2
            In Nizhny Novgorod there. You can turn around in a day.
  10. hohol95
    hohol95 17 September 2018 09: 41
    +5
    On the Internet, I found scans of such a curious document -

    It describes the research of N.A.Ovodkov, dedicated to the so-called. "Russian model" Winchester rifle Model 1895 supplied to Russia during WWI.
    And explanations are given to some "tricky moves" of the Morgan trading house!
    It turns out that the government of the Russian Empire did not purchase these rifles directly from the United States, but through the British Royal Government and the Morgan Banking House!
    As N. A. Ovodkov points out, in some contracts Russia is not indicated at all as a customer! Everything goes through the British Royal Government!
    1. kalibr
      17 September 2018 13: 55
      +3
      Very interesting! Did not know! Thank!
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 17 September 2018 18: 51
        +2
        There are Winchesters with the stigma of the English. Zak., And Colts M 1911 with the same brand. They did not make secrets from this.
  11. hohol95
    hohol95 17 September 2018 09: 47
    +3
    It remains to find samples of rifles manufactured for the Russian army by the companies Remington Arms & Ammunition and Westinghouse Electric & Manufecure!
  12. uwzek
    uwzek 17 September 2018 17: 36
    +1
    About manual cocking of a trigger before each shot you described. Jiggle staples Henry, like all other hard drives, cocking the gun. What is visible in your photos.
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 17 September 2018 22: 11
      +5
      About manual cocking of a trigger before each shot you described. Jiggle staples Henry, like all other hard drives, cocking the gun. What is visible in your photos.

      perhaps grandfather Vyacheslav Olegovich had a completely exhausted age gun. Or a hunting version. what
      Perhaps, remember, there were even two versions of "revolvers" - "officer" (self-cocking) and "soldier" (yes, as in the Wild West - before each shot the trigger must be cocked manually). What they made of a "Winchester" for hunting in the USSR - only God knows! request drinks
    2. kalibr
      18 September 2018 12: 46
      +2
      At the rifle that I photographed, the trigger was not automatically raised either.
      1. Curious
        Curious 18 September 2018 12: 58
        +2
        I would not have suffered a defective copy in my collection.
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 18 September 2018 21: 02
          +4
          I would not have suffered a defective copy in my collection.

          And V.O. Shpakovsky to you across the border good copy I would not be lucky! wink drinks even for a barrel of fat, a box of calvados and your warm company! drinks
          okay .. i’ll go cook potatoes with pork .. wink drinks
  13. Catfish
    Catfish 18 September 2018 13: 24
    +2
    Quote: svp67
    Quote: gross kaput
    AND? What is this talking about?

    Confirmation of your words. Well, the industry was not able to provide or did not want to show the presence of this upgrade. Since the bayonet on the SCS in the film shine regularly


    Seryoga, watch a movie! Everything is true there! Hollywood never lies! And Sovfilprokat all the more! laughing
  14. Catfish
    Catfish 18 September 2018 13: 33
    +2
    Quote: Kotischa

    Now a certain cat by Nikolai Mikhailov sits on the couch, nicknamed Mikado and "I think presses" has grown a belly, overgrown with the owner, the owner earns money for "whiskas", damn it, change something in this life! God forbid the owner's dreams come true


    Ento not only he lives this way.
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 18 September 2018 20: 53
      +4
      Ento not only he lives this way.

      and then! Who is the boss at home? Person? Yes, not at all! wink CAT at home! yes And the cats of everyone here are sure of this, including the Persian cat of our dear Viktor Nikolaevich! drinks
  15. Catfish
    Catfish 18 September 2018 17: 08
    +2
    Quote: Curious
    I would not have suffered a defective copy in my collection.


    And if you don’t get another one?

    I wanted to boast and insert a photo of my Cat, so for some reason it did not go away and they wrote to me that I have no right to comment on this site. fool

    Guys, what the hell is going on here?

    In our department there were alterations of an army "Winchester" into a hunting one, all of them cocked the trigger with a twitching staple. There were more than a dozen of them, with barrels of different lengths and varying degrees of wear, all under a three-line cartridge, five-charge. But failure of the trigger due to wear and tear on them is "normal", it was like that, and the barrel was "shot" too. Almost point blank shot at the water "bullet catcher" and the stern of the bullet simply "licked", it entered the water sideways. At first, no one could understand anything, then they figured out and measured the caliber at the muzzle, and there you could no longer see the rifling. So it goes. So, breaking the trigger is still seeds. hi
    1. Curious
      Curious 18 September 2018 18: 16
      +3
      "And if you don't get another?", then tidied up available. And if the weapon is also used, then malfunctions make it simply dangerous for both the user and others.
    2. Mikado
      Mikado 18 September 2018 21: 00
      +5
      Guys, what the hell is going on here?

      like, they hung up a "bell" for notification, I myself wrote to the administration about two weeks ago. I work from a computer (I'm not friends with a mobile Internet) - no warnings come, although many answered! request no, really, you need to work out this question! hi I hope so. drinks
  16. Catfish
    Catfish 18 September 2018 18: 22
    +4
    Quote: Curious
    "And if you don't get another?", then tidied up available. And if the weapon is also used, then malfunctions make it simply dangerous for both the user and others.


    Vic, so you talked about the collection, and here military weapons. I just blow off the dust from the collection, and the combat one - once or twice, and I got rid of it. And then the cops have a note. And don't explain to me about the invalid barrels, please, I have three years of army behind me and ten years of work as a restorer in the weapons department. And not wick squeaks, but a real "police fund".

    Sincerely, Your Constantine. hi
    1. Curious
      Curious 18 September 2018 19: 49
      +3
      Konstantin, wick food also requires labor. The mechanism, of course, is primitive there, but often there is a lot of decor, inlays, engravings, for the restoration of which one has to look for appropriate specialists. I did not work much with army weapons, more with hunting, but also interesting. In the 80s there was still a lot of trophy, which was taken from the war. Sometimes such specimens came across.
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 18 September 2018 21: 16
        +4
        In the 80s there was still a lot of trophy, which was taken from the war. Sometimes such specimens came across.

        in the book of Popel "Berlin is ahead"Katukov excitedly shares with him that he should visit the captured Goring's dacha - a whole collection of hunting weapons, they say, "Even" Goland-Holland "is"! fellow
        After that, it's funny to remember the movie: "Lock, money, two barrels " - there it appears in the hands of amateurs-robbers exactly "Goland goland", which one of the characters at the end of the film tries to throw into the river .. yes But he will throw it out or not - the question is open! laughing drinks
  17. Catfish
    Catfish 18 September 2018 22: 32
    +3
    [quote = Curious] +1
    Konstantin, wick food also requires labor. [/ quote]

    Vic, even a frying pan requires labor to clean. I was not talking about that. Artistic weapons require more of an artist than a gunsmith. I had another task, not to let modern combat weapons disappear in rust, which our "scientists" were not interested in at close range. Thanks to the then manager. department of weapons to Ilya Abramzon. He himself, a conscript sergeant in missile air defense, understood me and helped in every way. And at the very beginning of the nineties, we both left the museum and what happened to the fund I can’t judge, the women were left alone there. hi

    [quote = Mikado] [quote] But he will throw it out or not - the question is open! laughing drinks[/ Quote]

    Kohl, yes, he would rather drown his face from the bridge into the river than let these trunks fly. As I recall this scene from the film, so immediately laughter parses. Well done episode! drinks
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 19 September 2018 20: 50
      +5
      Kohl, yes, he would rather drown his face from the bridge into the river than let these trunks fly. As I recall this scene from the film, so immediately laughter parses. Well done episode! drinks

      generally gorgeous! good drinks here the big question is what the hero will choose with his attention - either the guns that need to be pushed off the bridge, or the mobile phone that needs to be reached to hear about the value of these very guns laughing if he chooses a mobile phone as the second action .. perhaps the whole gang will hire a professional diver for the remaining pennies! request drinks
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 20 September 2018 20: 20
        +1
        Guy Ritchie is generally a talented contemporary director, a man who can make a cinematic masterpiece out of a third-rate theater play.
  18. Looking for
    Looking for 14 December 2018 19: 56
    0
    This great dreamer Shpakovsky .. Yes, for ONE !!! just a shot on ANY street in ANY city from a similar weapon, the owner would not only instantly lose it, but also would thunder on the dock. And the "mythical" awards would not help.