Military Review

Who really needs screws in an envelope?

169
Who really needs screws in an envelope?



Mass-media avidly comment on the message about the desire of the RF Airborne Forces to get convertible planes for the delivery of the landing force to the place of the military operations. And often this information is presented as something new, progressive.

Launched this wave of love RIA "News". Journalists from this particular agency, citing an unnamed source in the defense industry complex, posted information that the Airborne Forces unexpectedly became interested in a hybrid of an airplane and a helicopter.

"The Airborne Forces are working on the possibility of using convertoplanes for delivering paratroopers on the battlefield. By the end of September, it is planned to receive a technical assignment and open experimental development work (R & D) on this machine.


Immediately it should be said that this hype looks more than strange. For similar to the next PAK FA. Recall that the OCD for the 5 fighter generation was launched back in the 80s of the last century in the USSR, in 2001, a new program for the development of this aircraft was launched in Russia, the aircraft took off in 2010, did not need it in 2018 refused.

The situation is very similar, for the Airborne Forces only thinks about whether it is possible to use non-existent while units for their own purposes, and someone is already writing technical specifications, happily rubbing the little hands. And what, this sweet word “budget” inspires no worse than “Redbulla.”

But let's look at the situation calmly.

In fact, paratroopers, not only the Airborne Forces, but also other units using airborne vehicles to the battle sites, have long known the danger of this operation.

A beautiful picture of landing troops from BTA aircraft is rarely accompanied by a story about enemy fighters who hunt for heavy transport workers. Or about ground defense, which have great potential in the fight against low-flying and low-speed vehicles.



Exactly the same picture when landing assault landing method from helicopters. The advantages of low altitude are offset by the low speed of the helicopters. In fact, the successful landing of an airborne force depends in many respects not even on the training of flight personnel and airborne troops, but on the ability to hide the very possibility of disembarking as long as possible.

Conversations and even development decisions specifically for the Airborne Forces of convertiplanes were conducted during the Soviet era. The aircraft, which combines the advantages of the aircraft (speed, range) and the helicopter (flight altitude, the possibility of landing in unequal places, the possibility of freezing) really looks attractive.

Convertoplane - aircraft with turning screws. The car rises into the air like a helicopter (that is, vertically), and after the climb of the nacelle with the engines lowered, and the aircraft continues to fly like a screw aircraft. Convertoplane can take off from the deck of an aircraft carrier, a small airfield and a flat land surface and land there.

If you recall the Soviet developments of 50-60-year-old, then you will find, in particular, in the Kamov Design Bureau, prototypes of modern convertible maps. In 1960, the OKB was created and presented to the test apparatus according to the tilt map - Ka-22. Moreover, this device quite successfully made test flights. Even set two world records.


Ka-22


Other Soviet designs are widely known. In particular, the convertible planes of the Mil Design Bureau (Mi-30 family). True, they were then called vintplan.


Mi-30


Yes, the characteristics at that time were impressive. Speed ​​- 500-600 km / h. Flight range - 800 km. Take-off weight - 10,6 tons. Load capacity - 2 tons (in the modified versions to 5 tons). But most importantly, the rotorcraft could be a real replacement for the old Mi-8. And the ability to install a more powerful power plant allows you to upgrade the car.

Applications for this machine were many. And in the military field, and in civilian use. Suffice it to recall that the Mi-30 is a whole line of convertible plans (by the middle of 80-s) with different take-off weight, 11, 22 and 30 tons (depending on the engines).

We killed our own convertiplane, killing the USSR. If the state armaments program was implemented for the period of 1986-1995, the USSR would have had such an aircraft by the middle of 90's. And the army would get it first. In this program, the Mi-30 was.

So the idea of ​​convertiplanes is not new. Practices in our OKB is. Comparing the Soviet devices with the only existing tweeter, V-22 Osprey of the American company Bell Helicopter, one can say that even today the Mi-30 and V-22 are competitors.



V-22 has a maximum speed (in airplane mode) 565 km / h, range - 690 km (combat), 722 km (landing), practical ceiling - 7620 m (2 engine), 3139 m (one engine), maximum takeoff weight - 27 443 kg, passenger capacity - 24 paratrooper.

But with all the advantages of a convertoplane (by the way, the V-22 in the USA is called a high-level aircraft), this undoubted miracle of modern technology has become a talk of the United States Marine Corps since its adoption.

Add to the absolutely no protection of the convertoplane add the complexity of the service, the complexity of management, numerous accidents due to design flaws.

But back to the conversation about promising developments konvertoplanov, which allegedly require the Airborne Forces and the SSO RF. Perhaps such devices are necessary. Perhaps the command of the Airborne Forces and the Special Operations Forces will support this idea. And maybe not. At least it's too early to talk about it now.

Moreover, most likely, the Ministry of Defense will find funds for the development of promising samples of such devices or will start work, starting from old Soviet projects. But rely on the rapid implementation of existing developments is not worth it.

It’s foolish to create a Russian vintoplan only because the Americans have a plane. The machine must be safe, fairly easy to operate and manage, unpretentious and sufficiently protected from the fire impact of the enemy.

A sudden injection of "information bomb" is due to very different reasons. Think financial. The practice has been studied, the track has been rolled up. To drive into the development and construction of a new “vundervafli” a certain number of billions of rubles, “master the budget”, build a bright future for yourself, and then?



And then, as with “Armata”, Su-57, PAK YES and others “who did not come to the court”. Try to realize the "huge export potential" and make money again, or just forget, as we are sure, through the 3-5 years we will forget about all of the above.

At the same time, for some reason in the armies of the world, even where the aircraft industry is developed, there is no hysteria about convertoplanes. Everyone calmly watches with the popcorn for the torment of Americans with Osprey, and everyone is happy with everything.



Moreover, it is safe to say that the interests of the military are more where the UAVs are developed and mastered.

So, can you imagine the prospects of unmanned convertible planes? Can.

An aircraft that installs a landmine on the road behind enemy lines, for example. Or UAV delivering to the rear of the enemy, in the mountains or other places not adapted for dumping cargo, ammunition for the DRG.

But such UAVs were shown last year at MAKS-2017 (the VRT30 UAV with a take-off weight of 1,5 t). True, in the form of prototypes, but ...

But in any case, whatever goals were pursued by the authors of the "information boom," it is great that we remembered the developments that we once could ... Maybe we can today?

Of course, maybe, we can. Questions of necessity and cost come first. And when these questions are answered, then it will be possible to understand what is behind the hype: a cover operation for the next cut of the budget or something more serious.
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  1. tasha
    tasha 7 September 2018 06: 34
    +5
    The Americans are busy with high-water planes after the failure of the hostage rescue operation in Iran. And the scope of application - special, landing and search and rescue operations. Helicopters perform such tasks worse because of the lower speed and range of the flight ... It is possible that in some cases when convertible gliders proved their advantages, we simply do not know ...
    Well, it seems to me that the next step from convertiplanes is multicopters, so this branch is not a dead end.
    1. Ruslan
      Ruslan 7 September 2018 06: 47
      +23
      but it seems to me that I need to rely on high-speed helicopters with pushing propellers, such as the ka-92. the characteristics are almost the same, but it seems to me that there will be less difficulties.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 7 September 2018 07: 02
        +15
        Quote: ruslan
        high speed propeller helicopters

        Moreover, we have gained vast experience in helicopters with coaxial screws. Which the Americans do not have. And this scheme for an auto-gyro helicopter with a pusher propeller is preferable.
      2. tasha
        tasha 7 September 2018 07: 04
        +6
        and it seems to me that there will be less difficulties

        Turntop planes are difficult to operate and manufacture, but it is structurally simpler than high-speed helicopters, it seems to me ... So here we have to think very seriously ..
        1. Cat
          Cat 7 September 2018 07: 47
          +3
          Dear Tasha, is right!
          You can make a brick fly, but who needs it? Yes, and have to wear a helmet all the time!
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 7 September 2018 08: 17
          +11
          Quote: tasha
          but structurally simpler than high-speed helicopters

          On the contrary. Especially if for safety reasons you have to drag a synchronizing shaft through the wing.
          1. ProkletyiPirat
            ProkletyiPirat 12 September 2018 23: 59
            0
            Quote: Spade
            Quote: tasha
            but structurally simpler than high-speed helicopters

            On the contrary. Especially if for safety reasons you have to drag a synchronizing shaft through the wing.

            There may be both options (both easier and more difficult), since
            1) a helicopter with one main and one stabilizing screw also has the same synchronization shaft
            2) the tiltrotor can use both classic (helicopter, aircraft) and specialized engines, for example, for the osprey and valor they are just specialized, which makes the aircraft more expensive.
      3. Svateev
        Svateev 8 September 2018 10: 52
        +4
        Quote: ruslan
        high speed propeller helicopters

        By the way, the Ka-22 in the photo in the article is not a "tiltrotor apparatus", but just a helicopter with an additional pair of pulling screws.
        And which design is simpler is a big question. In any case, if we have two or more screws, even coaxial, then they must be synchronized.
        Moreover, even in a single-rotor scheme, the tail stabilizing screw is synchronized with the main bearing, because the torque depends on the resistance on the main screw, that is, it varies depending on the operating mode of the main screw at the moment. Therefore, the operating mode of the stabilizing must be adjusted.
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 8 September 2018 14: 54
          0
          Well, that stabilize something with a tough fur. communication is simpler than the same completely different propellers in a classic helicopter.
        2. Locksmith
          Locksmith 4 December 2018 10: 58
          0
          Quote: Svateev
          because the torque depends on the resistance on the main screw, that is, it changes depending on the operating mode of the main screw at the moment

          The classic-style helicopter easily lands in autorotation mode, even without a tail rotor, a small rotation around the axis of the main rotor and all. If you lose at least one blade, the hovercraft cannot be planted.
    2. NEOZ
      NEOZ 7 September 2018 10: 56
      -2
      Quote: tasha
      when the convertiplanes have proven their advantages, we just don’t know ...

      Why can’t you use the landing parachute?
      for example on the AN-2
      1. Cat
        Cat 7 September 2018 12: 46
        +2
        It is possible, but safer when the aircraft has the ability to take off and land vertically. Firstly, it is easier to land on a ramp than to jump with a parachute. In addition, an order of magnitude less problems with equipment and other buns that there is no need to throw out after the landing, and then search for them in the mountains and valleys.
        Secondly, sometimes the landing should be taken from the prepared site.
        1. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 7 September 2018 13: 17
          +3
          Quote: Kotischa
          Secondly, sometimes the landing should be taken from the prepared site.

          Strange ... I was taught that the assault force seizes the landing platform and holds on all the time while the forces are building up on the captured "penny". Thus, diverting the enemy's reserves to an unnecessary direction of application of forces. Meanwhile ... our main forces strike in the chosen main direction. The enemy, deprived of reserves (they are fighting the landing party), is doomed to lose.
          Or - the landing, having completed the task, is waiting (breakthrough to it / breaks itself) connection with the main forces.
          But "evacuation" is for the MTR. This is their tactic - "blow up / destroy and dumped". It is desirable without losses on our part. Here, yes - the tiltrotor is more effective, but less tenacious than the turntable.
          IMHO.
          1. parma
            parma 7 September 2018 13: 48
            +1
            Quote: BoA KAA
            Quote: Kotischa
            Secondly, sometimes the landing should be taken from the prepared site.

            Strange ... I was taught that the assault force seizes the landing platform and holds on all the time while the forces are building up on the captured "penny". Thus, diverting the enemy's reserves to an unnecessary direction of application of forces. Meanwhile ... our main forces strike in the chosen main direction. The enemy, deprived of reserves (they are fighting the landing party), is doomed to lose.
            Or - the landing, having completed the task, is waiting (breakthrough to it / breaks itself) connection with the main forces.
            But "evacuation" is for the MTR. This is their tactic - "blow up / destroy and dumped". It is desirable without losses on our part. Here, yes - the tiltrotor is more effective, but less tenacious than the turntable.
            IMHO.

            a slightly outdated opinion ... In our time, when many sluggish conflicts without a united front (Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, etc.), paratroopers can play both the role of a reserve and a striking force and without the "main forces" ... Mobility, communications and firepower, even over the past 30 years, has increased greatly (in normal armies) ... If, say, in the 80s, paratroopers could only meet a not very significant number of tanks and armored personnel carriers / infantry fighting vehicles from equipment, now there are a lot of all sorts of rubbish and other good carrying armor at least 12,7 (although in some countries they also put 30 mm on armored cars) ... And all of this (well, or a very large share) have very sophisticated observation devices (often with televisions, sound detection systems), which makes it impossible for the landing use the tactics of colleagues during the day "d" (to act from an ambush with small forces, introducing confusion into the ranks of the enemy), because pockets of resistance will be quickly detected and, if necessary, isolated / destroyed ...
            1. Cat
              Cat 7 September 2018 16: 21
              +3
              Dear Boa Ka, you are undoubtedly right if it is necessary to carry out a full-fledged military operation! I’ll even add that in the event of a full-scale war, supersonic delivery vehicles would not have prevented the landing. And if you also equip them so that they could suppress air defense systems and clean out the landing site, then they would not have a price. Dreaming and okay!
              And so, a tiltrotor is a vehicle that flies a little faster, farther and higher than a helicopter, and can take off and land vertically. And everywhere the keyword is a bit !!!
              And again, you are right, convenient for those who flew off and flew away - for special operations in one word!
              Sincerely, Kitty!
              1. Boa kaa
                Boa kaa 8 September 2018 01: 32
                +2
                Quote: Kotischa
                Dreaming and okay!

                Yes, completeness, Cat! Well, do not tell on the site all your diploma work of the 2-th course of the Academy ... With supporting actions and steps ... laughing
            2. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 8 September 2018 01: 40
              +1
              Quote: parma
              although in some countries and on armored cars now put 30-mm)

              But what about BMP-82 you still don't know anything? belay
          2. Vladimir 5
            Vladimir 5 7 September 2018 19: 27
            -2
            It is strange, but already the first third of the 1st century, and even in the course of the RF Ministry of Defense exercises with parachute landing, the strategy of parachute large landings does not have any positive examples in military history, especially today such an archaic, with a developed air force. The strategy of the Russian Federation is erroneous and that massive parachute landing will NEVER be used, with modern long-range high-precision weapons of different bases, with small arms, an armed landing will become only a boy for beating (for example, "Wagnerians" at Deer Zor ..) the same happened: Crete and all the large landings of the Red Army in the Second World War. The tiltrotor is also not needed for the landing party, it is too vulnerable and capricious, but for the large expanses of the north of the Russian Federation, civilian use is possible ... Only if the necessary samples, PAK FA, PAK DA cannot be created for decades, so which one will be taken into account for tiltroplanes, no other ...
            1. Wilderness
              Wilderness 8 September 2018 07: 39
              0
              For the Russian Federation, the strategy of mass parachute landing is very relevant. Our country is huge, covering all directions with garrisons is an expensive and ineffective undertaking. Numerous, well-armed landing troops will close any section of the border, any direction of aggression against the country until the arrival of combined arms units. Thus, landing (by parachute or landing method) is crucial.
              1. Vladimir 5
                Vladimir 5 8 September 2018 16: 30
                -2
                Firefighters are needed when launched before the fire., Which means that a number of protective measures were not available, and fire actions are always unprofitable around (the allegory of a parachute landing) ... With today's surveillance equipment, landing of an enemy company is tracked down initially, and what mass landing with one Kalash against heavy high-precision weapons of the enemy - some people do not understand the nonsense about landing in a clean field without a thorough cover of air defense and other heavy necessary weapons. Commentators do not delve into the essence and foundations of today's military operations and are at the level of the 80s of the last century, so excuse me, the incomprehensible and the explanations will not help ....
                1. Wilderness
                  Wilderness 12 September 2018 16: 51
                  0
                  It seems that you just did not understand. And everyone is captive to plans for the use of landing troops of the level of the 80s. hi
            2. EvilLion
              EvilLion 8 September 2018 15: 00
              +2
              For example, the capture of Crete and a number of operations after WWII. It’s hard when you don’t learn history. Even in the Second World War, the USSR successfully threw large parachute landings. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyazemskaya_airborne_operation
          3. AUL
            AUL 8 September 2018 17: 58
            0
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            Strange ... I was taught that the assault force seizes the landing platform and holds on all the time while the forces are building up on the captured "penny".
            Life - it can turn in every way! Therefore, for the sake of military science it is not necessary to make suicide bombers, sometimes they need to be evacuated.
          4. Maki Avellevich
            Maki Avellevich 17 November 2018 08: 14
            0
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            The enemy, deprived of reserves (struggling with the landing), is doomed to lose.

            we must not forget that, as a rule, the landing is doomed.
    3. Topgun
      Topgun 8 September 2018 00: 26
      0
      I read about the operation against drug lords in Colombia, so the specialists flew on convertiplanes across the Caribbean islands, the sea, did their business and returned home directly to the USA + carry cargo between ships, the ocean is huge and they are so actively used (actively in oceanic between islands, bases, ships) the device is good, but the complexity is normal ...
    4. NG inform
      NG inform 6 December 2018 02: 51
      0
      Why failure? Could the truck driver be killed? Could.
  2. lelik613
    lelik613 7 September 2018 07: 08
    +3
    Perhaps the future of four, six screw machines?
    1. Cat
      Cat 7 September 2018 07: 45
      +6
      The problem with multi-screw machines is vibration and gearboxes. Even during the Great Patriotic War, our aircraft designers were developing a line of helicopters with a twin-screw transverse arrangement "Omega". Later, the longitudinal "banana" Yak-25 and the Ka-22 rotorcraft appeared. In all cases, designers 90% of the time struggled with the above two troubles.
      The problem was solved only with the Mi-12, but with the Mi-26 directing, the need for the first disappeared.
      In my opinion, the future belongs to high-speed helicopters with a fixed "X" -shaped wing. Although this is the opinion of a layman, not a specialist!
      Sincerely, Kitty!
      R.s. even a three-screw pipe carrier with a triangular arrangement of screws in cross section was developed in the Soviet Union.
      1. Cat
        Cat 7 September 2018 08: 01
        +9

        Omega 3 - Baturina (Tashkent). Once again, I repeat the photo of 1943!


        Three-screw Mi-32 "Trubovoz"!


        Interesting is his comparison of the sizes against the background of the Mi-26!
        1. Alex_59
          Alex_59 7 September 2018 09: 08
          +3
          Quote: Kotischa
          Interesting is his comparison of the sizes against the background of the Mi-26!

          More likely not Mi-26, but the layout of the future Mi-38
          1. Cat
            Cat 7 September 2018 12: 58
            +1
            Alex is possible, but I am confused by the five-blade rotor!
            Yours!
            1. Alex_59
              Alex_59 7 September 2018 14: 13
              +5
              Quote: Kotischa
              Alex is possible, but I am confused by the five-blade rotor!
              Yours!

              What bothers you? Mi-38 is just that. MI-26 EMNIP 7 blades.
              1. Cat
                Cat 7 September 2018 15: 40
                +2
                ATP!
                You are rightly right, thank you for editing. hi
        2. yehat
          yehat 7 September 2018 12: 30
          +3
          I think such a helicopter is a big stupid thing. Why can't you make a gel airship for the same purpose? Yes, it is not so convenient, but how many problems are missing!
          1. Cat
            Cat 7 September 2018 12: 56
            +2
            The airship is good luck. Especially for bulky goods - a song! But today there is no infrastructure for balloons on earth. Balloons do not count.
            These are the investments required for the equipment of a "baby" 200-250 meters long. This "baby" will have the same payload as the Mi-26.
            So on the issue of airships, the economy is driving - cost-effectiveness!
            1. yehat
              yehat 7 September 2018 12: 58
              +2
              and what, it is impossible to make a folding airship? collapsible frame, handball and gas tank - that's the whole infrastructure. brought, collected and carry what you need.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 7 September 2018 15: 48
                0
                Tsiolkovsky, by the way, was engaged in similar theoretical developments.
          2. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 7 September 2018 13: 23
            +1
            Quote: yehat
            Why can't you make a gel airship for the same purpose?

            Did the story of "Count Zeppelin" teach you anything?
            Tady - "call, banana nema!" (from) laughing
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. yehat
              yehat 7 September 2018 21: 00
              +5
              zeppellin is not a gel airship and in ww2 the Americans successfully exploited "blimps"
              so your comment is completely off topic.
              By the way, still part of the blimp infrastructure is in operation, i.e. she is profitable
          3. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 7 September 2018 21: 30
            +2
            Quote: yehat
            I think such a helicopter is a big stupid thing. Why can't you make a gel airship for the same purpose?

            The airship can neither land nor take off vertically from unprepared sites. Yes, and in principle, rapprochement with the earth is very dangerous for him. I don’t think that delivering pipes to the oil industry by bombing is a good idea.

            By the way, all helium airships also died, like ordinary hydrogen airships.
            1. yehat
              yehat 10 September 2018 11: 18
              0
              all helium airships also died, like ordinary hydrogen


              you are either lying or absolutely not up to date with the topic.
              The operation of gel airships has been going on for more than a century and is quite successful. Thanks to the Germans - they filled cones on themselves and on hydrogen airships, which the Americans then quietly circumvented (helium on an industrial scale for a long time mined cheaply only)
              The airship can neither land nor take off vertically from unprepared sites


              I do not understand. Why would an airship land and take off everywhere? Can't it work like a crane? and about the "prepared" platform - the airship needs only a mast to which it can be tied. The parking issue can be solved either by a hangar (as the Germans did with the Zepellins), or simply by pumping gas into some tanks.
              Finally, partly balloon technology can be used to heat the gas.

              And yet - I perfectly understand the main difficulties in using airships and in the first post I wrote that there are inconveniences, moreover, there are places with such a climate where the work of airships is a big question, but how stupidly inconvenient is it to use mega-helicopters for mass transportation and installation?

              Finally, it’s time for the freaking engineers to remember that for a number of patrol tasks
              better than the airship now there is nothing at all (well, maybe the geostationary satellite will be better somewhere, but this is not a panacea at the moment)
              In solar and non-cloudy areas, airplanes with solar panels performed well, but they are even more limited than airships.
              1. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 10 September 2018 23: 19
                +2
                Quote: yehat
                The operation of gel airships has been going on for more than a century and is quite successful.

                Sure sure. Every day I see a string of airships in the sky laughing
                The problem of helium airships is exactly the same as hydrogen ones, lack of strength. The pressure created by atmospheric flows in bad weather reaches tens of tons. Lightweight and durable constructions at the same time still could not be created. As a result, either touching the ground after a gust of wind (and the mass is 100-150 tons) or directly in the air twists into a ram’s horn, so that all the frames burst. Read about Akron and Mekon.

                Quote: yehat
                Why does the airship land and take off everywhere, can't it work like a crane?

                No, he can not. To do this, the airship must be fixed in the air. With its size and sailing, engines of tremendous power will be required, as if not more powerful than on the same mega-helicopters.

                Quote: yehat
                and about the "prepared" platform - the airship only needs a mast,

                The mast, and high, able to withstand jerks of carcasses of 100-150 tons, is itself a cyclopean structure.

                Airships today are a dead end. Huge size, huge sail, huge mass but at the same time zero weight like a bubble. Some problems. Materials that can remove these problems have not yet appeared.
    2. ProkletyiPirat
      ProkletyiPirat 13 September 2018 00: 13
      0
      Quote: lelik613
      Perhaps the future of four, six screw machines?

      lied, there are three options
      1) they are on the same line, - in this case, the area of ​​the surface to be swept is smaller and the lifting force is less from this
      2) they are in two or more lines (Bell Boeing Quad TiltRotor) - in this case, in horizontal flight, the back end falls into a vortex flow and loses its lift (in the best case) or even leads to additional loads and breakdowns (in the worst case) ) or in case of spacing the screws we get the 1st option
      3) in horizontal flight, some of the engines do not work - in this case we carry excess weight.
  3. Cat
    Cat 7 September 2018 07: 08
    +16

    In 1960, the Design Bureau created and presented for testing the apparatus according to the scheme of the convertiplane - Ka-22.

    Oh really? Ka-22 is built according to the scheme rotorcraft . Since it does not have rotary screws, but separately a pair of pulling and supporting.

    A tiltrotor is an aircraft with rotary propellers. The car rises into the air like a helicopter (that is, vertically), and after climbing, the nacelles with engines lower, and the aircraft continues to fly like a helicopter.

    I don't even know how to comment - this is the author's pearl? A rhetorical question, what if there are no propellers and the tiltrotor uses turbojet engines for lift? Isn't that a tiltrotor? I just want to blur out - before writing, you need to at least look through technical dictionaries except for the "wiki"!
    P.s. Although I shouldn't be talking about "wiki", it says "movers", so it's a fact - the authors haven't even read it, it's sad!
    Sincerely, Kitty!
    1. Cat
      Cat 7 September 2018 07: 29
      +8
      An example, an experienced foreign convertiplane with fan movers!
      1. kakvastam
        kakvastam 7 September 2018 12: 52
        +1
        "Dvizhиtel "is written with" I. "I will not say about Wikipedia, but in Russian - for sure.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 7 September 2018 19: 08
          0
          Well, there is such a chip, here everyone writes with errors. It’s good practice not to pay attention to it.
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 7 September 2018 09: 06
      +1
      Vlad, a counter rhetorical question. How do you imagine a jet engine convertiplane?
      1. Cat
        Cat 7 September 2018 13: 11
        +3
        Anton, I can't imagine him, the Americans in the 60s made a prototype of such a "bun"! Unfortunately, I have not found a photograph of such a car in the "internet".
        A similar copy was in the photo in the book "Unique and Paradoxical Technique", alas, I do not remember the author.
        An example with a fan drive I have already cited above.
        V 12 for 30 years has become a classic in convertiplanes, but it must be remembered that it is still the only serial. So it’s not a panacea.
        Yours!
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 7 September 2018 13: 32
          +2
          I think there are at least two reasons for the futility of such a project. 1. In the "take-off-landing" mode, this canoe is eating a burst of fuel. 2. If at the point of departure it is possible to provide an exclusion zone from the jet stream, then at the point of landing it is far from always possible. Thus, the meaning of vertical take-off is lost.
        2. Curious
          Curious 7 September 2018 14: 32
          +3

          In 1947, the convertiplane project was proposed by aircraft designer Alexander Yakovlevich Shcherbakov. Unlike its predecessors and foreign counterparts, this aircraft, designated as the All-Russian Air Force (“High-Speed ​​Fighter”), was to be equipped with rotary British Nin-type turbojet engines (turbojet engines) with a thrust of 2270 kgf each. The AFI was a monoplane with a high tail unit and a highly located wing of small scope, at the ends of which engines were installed that rotated in a vertical plane at an angle of up to 120 ° and were equipped with gas rudders. Chassis - tricycle, retracted into the fuselage. According to the calculations of the developers, the thrust of the two turbojet engines was supposed to provide all-round take-off without take-off, steep climb, horizontal flight, descent with braking and landing when the engines were upright without mileage.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 7 September 2018 15: 05
            0
            I misunderstood, 120 degrees is -60, +60 relative to the planes?
            1. prodi
              prodi 7 September 2018 15: 53
              +5
              oh well you of course 120 with a blockage back
            2. Curious
              Curious 7 September 2018 15: 54
              +2
              The engine is horizontally - 0 degrees.
              We install it vertically - a rotation of 90 degrees.
              Structurally provided for the ability to turn further - another 30 degrees. Total - 120 degrees.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 7 September 2018 15: 56
                0
                Oh damn it! What the hell?
                1. Curious
                  Curious 7 September 2018 16: 03
                  +2
                  The ability to change the direction of the thrust vector increases maneuverability.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 7 September 2018 16: 21
                    0
                    As far as I understand, it didn't come to "metal"? I wonder how the designers were supposed to compensate for the sag on the jet during vertical take-off, when turning the engines and damping the speed during landing?
                    1. prodi
                      prodi 7 September 2018 16: 32
                      +2
                      Yes, in both cases, they provided a margin in height, probably at times, although with smooth glide paths there should not be any special drawdowns
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 7 September 2018 16: 38
                        +1
                        Good, but when landing it is necessary to extinguish the horizontal speed to zero. How?
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 7 September 2018 18: 59
                        0
                        I poorly imagine a smooth glide path with a working jet engine, in a changing aerodynamics of the aircraft. In addition, we are talking about a fighter project.
                2. Cat
                  Cat 7 September 2018 16: 28
                  +2
                  I dare to suggest Anton that turning back in a vertical plane is necessary to adjust the vertical landing!
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 7 September 2018 16: 40
                    +1
                    Perhaps Vlad. But let me remind you that the same "Ospreys" fight mainly on takeoff and landing.
                    1. ProkletyiPirat
                      ProkletyiPirat 13 September 2018 00: 22
                      0
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      the same "Ospreys" fight mainly on takeoff and landing.

                      And what about helicopters and airplanes is not the same? wink
      2. san4es
        san4es 7 September 2018 18: 39
        +3
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        .... jet engine convertiplane?

        hi ... Not a convertiplane, but the principle is similar. 1969 - D0-31 E-3. German inventors in the 60s were also involved in the development of such an aircraft.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 7 September 2018 18: 51
          +1
          Precisely that principle is different! There is a take-off and landing group of engines and there is a chassis, as on the Ka-22.
          1. san4es
            san4es 7 September 2018 18: 59
            +3
            Soviet helicopter communication B-11 soldier
        2. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 7 September 2018 21: 38
          +1
          The Germans have a good idea. Although in my opinion they’ve poorly balanced, it’s hard to flop.
      3. Nedokomsomolets
        Nedokomsomolets 8 September 2018 00: 29
        0
        Hello everyone! To my own shame and regret, I have nothing to do with aviation, except that sometimes I am a passenger. But I saw an example of such a thing in the movies!)) "Terminator - 3", besides, he is also a drone there!))
        And, of course, shot down from a Kalashnikov assault rifle.
        I sincerely recommend it to everyone as a discharge for discussion.
        Good luck to all of us!
      4. Laughtermaster
        Laughtermaster 10 September 2018 11: 23
        +2
        How do you imagine a jet engine convertiplane?

        Maybe like an F-35? wassat
      5. Simargl
        Simargl 17 October 2018 10: 50
        0
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        How do you imagine a jet engine convertiplane?
        Yak-141, F-35B. Not?
    3. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 7 September 2018 13: 29
      +5
      Quote: Kotischa
      the authors did not even read it, sadly!
      Sincerely, Kitty!

      After your comment, I want to rephrase it a little:
      " Yours faithfully to the CATTLE !!! " hi
      1. Cat
        Cat 7 September 2018 16: 25
        +3
        Thank you for your kind word, it’s even nice to Kotishchu! hi
  4. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 7 September 2018 07: 28
    +2
    At the same time, for some reason in the armies of the world, even where the aircraft industry is developed, there is no hysteria about convertoplanes. Everyone calmly watches with the popcorn for the torment of Americans with Osprey, and everyone is happy with everything.

    initial order in mid-1992 reduced to 300 cars
    1. Cat
      Cat 7 September 2018 07: 56
      0
      During the years of the USSR, we ourselves were tormented with the Ka-22 rotorcraft.
      Cured meat and fish for beer are better than popcorn, the show "V-22" continues! drinks
  5. Irbenwolf
    Irbenwolf 7 September 2018 07: 54
    +11
    There is a small big caveat. ANY development and a small-medium (experienced) party is not just a cut in the budget, but ... an incredible amount of jobs. Preservation of the potentials of plants and design bureaus. It is much more profitable to subsidize developments than just saving strategic plants from bankruptcies.

    One should not even talk about the experience of reprofiling production to new types of products. Operating experience and other related information.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 7 September 2018 08: 38
      +5
      I agree 100% !!! The situation is the same with academic science. The "guardians" of the budget constantly forget that such industries require constant investments. Otherwise, we run the risk of being in the position: "the British do not clean their guns with bricks" /
      1. Black sniper
        Black sniper 7 September 2018 15: 10
        +1
        The rotorcraft has the right to life, long range, speed compared to helicopters. The whole problem is only in money. hi
        1. ProkletyiPirat
          ProkletyiPirat 13 September 2018 00: 27
          0
          Quote: Black Sniper
          The only problem is money

          But have you already solved the problem of switching endings to supersonic? (this is about speed)
  6. Alex_59
    Alex_59 7 September 2018 09: 03
    +4
    In Soviet times, all this has already passed. When you wanted to have a sample that has no analogues in the world in each direction. Sprayed funds for everything that is possible. Three types of main battle tanks (well, it’s necessary to load three design bureaus with work!), Hundreds of types of ships, missiles, useless (but not analogous to the world!) Ekranoplanes, vertical planes, seaplanes ... Now here are another convertiplanes. All this splendor was one of the bricks on the grave of the USSR. Not the biggest, and not because of this, of course, the country fell apart, but this contributed to the collapse. For some reason, our probable friends solved the same range of problems having, for example, one type of tank or two types of anti-ship missiles. While we simultaneously had three types of MBT, two types of outdated medium tanks and one light tank. But you will get tired of RCC altogether - three dozen projects will be typed for sure.
    I have to answer myself the question - checkers or go? If we go, then we must urgently forget about all these attempts to revive the production of ekranoplanes, vertical platforms, and seaplanes. This is all "red caviar", but we do not have enough bread. Give one combat aircraft to the troops, but in hundreds of serial machines - this is more useful for the defense of the country than two copies of the other and the third.
    Agnia Barto has already written beautifully about this, only our politicians do not read it:

    Drama circle, photo circle,
    Horcrux - I want to sing hunting
    For the drawing circle
    Everyone also voted.

    And Marya Markovna said
    When I walked out of the hall yesterday:
    "Drama circle, circle by photo
    This is too much something.

    Choose yourself, my friend,
    One some circle ".
    1. Irbenwolf
      Irbenwolf 7 September 2018 10: 48
      +8
      In Soviet times, all this has already passed. When you wanted to have a sample that has no analogues in the world in each direction. Sprayed funds for everything that is possible. Three types of main battle tanks (well, it’s necessary to load three design bureaus with work!), Hundreds of types of ships, missiles, useless (but not having analogs in the world!) Ekranoplanes, vertical aircraft, seaplanes ...


      It's like that. Three types of tanks, you say ... Only for the T64 was developed (oh horror!), At least two more prototypes (Object 140 and Object 430) and it was these vehicles that were compared in order to obtain the mentioned vehicle. And then the more technologically advanced turbine T80 and the more primitive and top-end T72 emerged from the initial design. Bad? Very ... the T-80 was planned for a blitzkrieg and there were few of them, and the T-72 was for "stubborn defense" and they could be printed in batches .... Their number in the troops was correspondingly.

      For ships - this is to Oleg Kaptsov. Here I will not even climb - not an expert. Although the notorious "status-6" is rooted in "useless" Soviet development. Not to mention other "losharik" and "Komsomol members" (titanium case, by the way).

      The fact that there was no opportunity to demonstrate the combat capabilities of ekranoplanes is not the fault of the idea. But the potential of the structure is enormous. It works on the verge of interaction between air and sea detection systems and was conceived as a means of delivering anti-ship missiles to an aircraft carrier group. "Partners" were very interested in the technical data and developments on this development.

      In F35 you do not see any developments on the Yak design, meanwhile the fact of obtaining data on this Soviet design as a "partner" takes place. And many argue about what kind of design is hidden under the F35 stealth profile.

      To summarize the phrase Abdula from the famous film:
      "A dagger is good for someone who has it and bad for someone who doesn't, at the right time."
      1. Alex_59
        Alex_59 7 September 2018 12: 13
        +5
        Quote: IrbenWolf
        -80 was planned for a blitzkrieg and there were few of them, and the T-72 was for "stubborn defense" and they could be printed in batches ...

        Since the mid-70s, three MBTs have been produced simultaneously in the USSR. And at the end of the 80s, T-80, T-72, T-64, T-62, T-55 served in combat units at the same time. This does not fit into a similar scheme. I also understand that the idea of ​​having a super-breakthrough tank in the form of the T-80 and a tank simpler than the T-72 may exist, but by the 80s they had to somehow streamline the range of weapons. It would be logical if the combat units were equipped with 75% T-72 and 25% T-80, and the T-64 stood in warehouses as a mob reserve. But no, they were all produced and consisted of the troops. And in general, if a super-tank was really needed, it would be possible to have all the differences in armor, and to implement the MSA on the T-72 chassis - it would just be another "enhanced" modification on a single base.
        The fact that the opportunity did not turn up to demonstrate the combat capabilities of ekranoplanes is not the fault of the idea.
        The guilt of the leaders who were led to the next wunderwaffe did not appreciate the deadlock of the project in time.
        Quote: IrbenWolf
        In F35, you do not see developments on the Yak design, meanwhile the fact of obtaining data on this Soviet design as a "partner" takes place.

        We do not need a vertical take-off plane from the word at all. We do not have the U.S. ILC that will provide an order for 300-400 such aircraft (which will make their creation commercially viable). I still partially agree on tanks - our country is land, tanks is important. But a highly specialized aircraft for amphibious landing operations, which in all respects merges an ordinary land fighter-bomber, is a luxury. Wrong country. To create a completely new unique design for the sake of 50 of such serial airplanes (and who will order them more?) In modern conditions is pure squandering of money. This is against the background of the fact that we can not buy Su-57.
        1. kakvastam
          kakvastam 7 September 2018 13: 06
          +2
          It seems that you are not very familiar with the subject. In the United States, separate developments are quite ordered for different types of troops; no one is trying to tighten all the screws with the same hammer. And the aged B-52s fly at their best, and hardly anyone decides to cut them until they meet the airworthiness standards - there is no Khrushchev on them! And he, by the way, was with us, and he reasoned exactly like you: why do we need airplanes, ships, etc., when we have missiles?
          A normal person differs from a financier in that he takes into account all aspects of solving the task, and not just the cost.
        2. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 7 September 2018 13: 59
          +2
          Quote: Alex_59
          We do not need a vertical take-off plane from the word at all.
          I have an immodest question for you, sir: Do you consider yourself smarter than the entire composition of the Military Technical Committee under the Defense Ministry of the RF Armed Forces?
          Why am I asking? Yes, because the Deputy Chairman of the Government of the Russian Federation on the military-industrial complex, Mr. Borisov, clearly stated: the VTOL aircraft are already being developed, and they will be armed with our aircraft carriers. Yes
          Well, how after that your "... the plane is not needed from the word at all" ??? belay
          1. Alex_59
            Alex_59 7 September 2018 14: 20
            +5
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            Do you consider yourself smarter than the entire composition of the Military Technical Committee under the Defense Ministry of the RF Armed Forces?

            No, I don’t think so. But I am an engineer with some experience, so I have my own opinion. And as for the MO, then there are people who are mistaken. And there are many examples of this.
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            And he, by the way, was with us, and he reasoned exactly like you: why do we need airplanes, ships, etc., when we have missiles?

            I am just urging you to focus your efforts on critical areas. Especially in our conditions, when "there is no money and you have to hold on." If we were talking about the United States, the dough is not measured there. They and the F-35 are already being driven in series. And still remains for all sorts of convertiplanes. And here I do not see the Su-57 mass produced.
            1. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 8 September 2018 02: 05
              +2
              Quote: Alex_59
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              And he, by the way, was with us, and he reasoned exactly like you: why do we need airplanes, ships, etc., when we have missiles?

              Sir ... no need to ascribe to me what Mr. kakvastam (Kakvas There) said yesterday, 13: 06
              Aha !? smile
          2. Henderson
            Henderson 7 September 2018 18: 48
            +1
            To arm aircraft-carrying ships with something, they must first be built. Together with infrastructure and support ships. And it looks a little utopian in conditions when even launching a new frigate becomes a great event.
            Rogozin, when he was in place of Borisov, also promised a lot of things, even gave a tooth.
            All their promises are like goose water.
        3. EvilLion
          EvilLion 8 September 2018 15: 06
          0
          The T-64 was discontinued in the 1987 year, actually. T-55 has a big plus, it is very cheap and well-developed, MiG-21 from tanks.
        4. Irbenwolf
          Irbenwolf 10 September 2018 14: 33
          +1
          And at the end of the 80s in combat units T-80, T-72, T-64, T-62, T-55 served simultaneously.

          The IS-3 tanks were decommissioned in 1994. If I am not mistaken at the same time with the ISU-152 ACS. That is, tanks of the Second World War served in the army !!! But this is even more a nomenclature of spare parts! Generation T55-T62 cannot be written off for scrap in one day. The country will simply be left without "second wave" tanks: T-80s will die almost instantly (in the event of an attack), there are just very few of them. Printing T-72s in quantities capable of replacing all tanks of the previous generation is simply economically unprofitable, and the plant's capacity will not be enough. To strain the Kharkov plant? Quite an option, but it needs ... engines. The ones that fit the T-72. And in Kharkov, by that time, they were experimentally creating more powerful engines than those that were installed on the T-72, yes, more damp, but more powerful. Ditch the design bureau and the engine building plant under the dubious full saturation of the troops with one type of tanks? It is shortsighted ... And why in conditional Central Asia the USSR has such modern machines? There T55-T62 is quite suitable equipment. There you won't be able to cut mountains even on tanks. And from the mountains for grenade launchers, that the T-72, that the T-55 - all one good soft target.
          The guilt of the leaders who were led to the next wunderwaffe did not appreciate the deadlock of the project in time.
          Deadlock? Lack of demand does not mean deadlock at all. "Katyusha" was not in demand until 1941. Was she a dead end? Was it worth your time and budget?
          We do not need a vertical take-off plane from the word at all.

          In mass production - no. On this I absolutely agree with you. But just add ... At this stage. However, development and / or copying (in Chinese style) must be done. Even obliged! When the hour "H" comes, the factories will have the best. And in a certain variety, you can draw the most winning ideas. In 1941, most of the seagulls were officially in the USSR Air Force, but at the end of the 30s, each plant, on its own initiative, sawed its own fighter project. There were plenty to choose from.
          In 1941, the technologically sophisticated ZIS-2 gun was hacked. For her, the Germans simply did not have enough powerful iron. But the gun remained in the drawings and for the time being lay in the archive. But as soon as the Tiger and Panther appeared, drawings were taken from the archives. It would be simply no time to develop from scratch ...
      2. yehat
        yehat 7 September 2018 21: 13
        -1
        Americans make a bunch of the latest types of weapons based on technical documentation received from the USSR - laser jeeps, compact antennas with phased arrays, MD generators, a whole range of conventional generators, boilers and other successful solutions, calculations of complex aerodynamics - it’s even difficult to cover all that the collapse of the USSR or in the magazine youth technology (the Japanese were very fond of patenting what was printed there) was donated abroad. F-35 half - direct use of Soviet developments. And the matter is far not only in yak. There is enough of another. For example, the helmet-mounted target designation system came from the USSR in the 90s.
        1. Mauricio
          Mauricio 7 September 2018 21: 34
          0
          Quote: yehat
          Americans make a bunch of the latest weapons based on technical documentation

          start with the development of private corporations, and not necessarily American ...
          Quote: yehat
          laser jeeps, compact antennas with phased arrays, mhd generators, a whole range of conventional generators, boilers and other successful solutions, complex aerodynamics calculations

          if there were no patents for all this, then there is nothing to talk about, since dozens of enterprises can work on the same problem in parallel.
          1. yehat
            yehat 10 September 2018 11: 22
            0
            There were patents, but USSR patents in the west are ignored. In addition, in the field of secret technologies, the very concept of a patent is somewhat unclear.
  7. igorbrsv
    igorbrsv 7 September 2018 09: 14
    -2
    The task of the landing, now, as I see it, is to transfer as soon as possible to the breakthrough area and counteract it before the main forces approach, or strengthen the main group. They will no longer throw them behind enemy lines even to the Papuans. Delivery vehicles let experts choose
  8. Larum
    Larum 7 September 2018 09: 14
    -1
    Another project, knock out money and boast
  9. EvilLion
    EvilLion 7 September 2018 09: 18
    0
    in 2010, the plane took off, in 2018 it was no longer needed, and it was practically abandoned.


    It's a bullshit.

    There is a huge difference between Su-57 and tiltrotor aircraft. The first provides breakthrough functionality and LTX in a critically important direction, and the tiltrotor does not provide anything fundamentally new. Helicopter only a little faster.
    1. Topgun
      Topgun 8 September 2018 00: 16
      +1
      there is not so much speed as RANGE.
      as in the first comment they wrote in the United States, the idea of ​​a vertical landing machine with a long range stuck firmly in the brain after the capture of ambassadors in Iran, helicopters could not fly there and the CIA hung rocket engines on the Hercules so that it could sit on a football stadium and take off later, it didn't work out, now they have such a device, this is a tiltrotor, with refueling in the air it allows you to get to ANY point of the planet, and whatever the difficulties with the technique, they will solve them, but they will not refuse tiltroplanes IMHO ...
  10. Ros 56
    Ros 56 7 September 2018 09: 32
    +2
    Just imagine what will happen to this crap at the slightest failure in the right or left engine or failure in the mechanism of changing the pitch of the screw or the rotation of the wing.
    1. san4es
      san4es 7 September 2018 09: 51
      +5
      Quote: Ros 56
      Just imagine what will happen to this crap at the slightest glitch ...
      what ... Test flight V - 22 ... Something went wrong ...hi
      1. Ros 56
        Ros 56 7 September 2018 09: 54
        +2
        Here I am about the same. Good confirmation of my words. good
    2. Topgun
      Topgun 8 September 2018 00: 20
      0
      as technology progresses, it becomes more complicated and it’s not just normal, but it should be so because additional functionality comes with complexity ...
      let's fight with bows, factories that make cartridges and warehouses can bomb + barrels wear out, and a soldier can make a bow himself, and arrows ...
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 8 September 2018 14: 46
        +1
        A bow is a very complex device, especially to master. The gun is just an order of magnitude easier. And it was simplicity that was firing, and especially training in its use allowed to increase the number of armies.
        1. Topgun
          Topgun 8 September 2018 19: 11
          -1
          "Simple" guns made progress, the first guns were not easy for those people (they even applied personalized ornaments, etc.) and the tiltrotor can become "easier" with progress if they work on it, but even if it becomes, on the contrary, more difficult - this is normal everything around us with progress becomes more complicated (even bows are now block with "skis" made of special materials) no need to be afraid of difficulties
          and the seeming "simplicity" of modern small arms is sooooo naive, in the production of it, certain steel grades are used for certain parts (and this is not school chemistry), taking into account the temperature effects, loads, in short, look at the "hammer" mortar :)) like that the pipe is simpler and that's all - but no, yes, the Mongolian bow is not easy, the master uses a lot of all kinds of "spare parts" when making it by eye :)) but still IMHO the bow is much simpler than a modern "firearm", some details require forging, some - carburizing, somewhere a certain steel, there are a lot of subtleties that are not visible to a common man in the street (I am already silent that a firearm cannot be made in the field)
  11. Silinvv
    Silinvv 7 September 2018 09: 48
    +7
    I have experience in piloting airplanes, I know both theory and equipment quite well. Hobbies - RC helicopters. As for aerodynamics and control principles, the RC helicopter is no different from the real one, since the flybar has long been buried in favor of a flybarless system on stabilization systems. I can honestly say that flying a helicopter is very difficult. In general, do not relax, and plus this thing all the time somewhere trying to drift, not to mention the wonderful effects when it hangs, especially above ground. It’s not so easy. After another crash and spending to recover $ 600, I decided to try quadrics. I am from that generation of modellers who do not recognize DJI because he is flying and he is not a pilot, but an statistician. Essno built a racing quadric in which only telemetry and video are from electronics. So here. Why this opus - I was stunned how easy the quadrocopter is to operate after a helicopter and this is without stabilization. In addition, the strangest thing is that the quadric is held in the air longer than a helicopter on the same batteries. Of course it can’t be put on autorotation, but you can duplicate the screws and change the speed. Wang, that the helicopter has already died. Osprey is a semi-finished product that tries to fly but it's a dead end. The speed of the apparatus with the rotor is limited to 340 km / h since the lifting force on the side of the rotor going back decreases. Co-aligners are deprived of this, but there is a very complex swash plate and drive system. I believe that the future lies in multi-rotor systems with star-shaped screw placement. Ready to bet on it!
    1. Ros 56
      Ros 56 7 September 2018 10: 00
      +2
      It seems like a dunce, but I didn’t understand, what kind of animal, star-shaped placement of screws, is it like, is this a quadric of more than five screws?
    2. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 7 September 2018 14: 19
      +2
      Quote: Silinvv
      Wang, that the helicopter has already died.

      Well, damn it ... But the men don’t know! (with)
      The development of an advance project of a high-speed combat helicopter on the instructions of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation is almost complete, the developer has formulated his proposals on the appearance of the machine. This was reported by Interfax with reference to a source in the military-industrial complex.

      And not only with us:
      A high-speed helicopter program exists, including abroad. So, Sikorsky created the reconnaissance high-speed helicopter S-97 Raider, built coaxial pattern. Maximum speed - about 444 kilometers per hour.
    3. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 7 September 2018 14: 24
      +2
      Quote: Silinvv
      The speed of the rotor is limited to 340 km / h

      So the helicopter designers are wrong?
      Oleg Chesnokov, the chief of combat training for the army aviation of the Russian Aerospace Forces, spoke about the development of a high-speed helicopter that will develop speeds above 400 km / h.

    4. EvilLion
      EvilLion 8 September 2018 14: 49
      0
      Well, it’s not in vain that the Ka-52, despite all the stupidity and hatred of its competitors, and difficult production conditions, pushed through. And I'm sure that he will survive the Mi-28 for a long time.
  12. Mikhail Zubkov
    Mikhail Zubkov 7 September 2018 10: 25
    -3
    Authors, like the Pentagon, very good. worried about the very possibility of the Russian Federation to create a competitive tiltrotor, which will certainly be steeper than the American one. Their "budget cuts" are much steeper than ours, but the authors are only afraid of ours. A hint for thought to the readers of a new, politicized resource.
    1. businessv
      businessv 7 September 2018 13: 56
      +1
      Quote: Mikhail Zubkov
      The authors, like the Pentagon, very good. concerned about the very possibility of the Russian Federation to create a competitive tiltrotor, which is likely to be cooler than the US.

      In vain, colleague, you accuse the authors of sympathies with the Pentagos! They said what they wanted to say - we have already developed such devices, so their first question is a question to RIA Novosti - for what purpose did they "muddied" this topic? Everything else is a very clear and sensible logical chain of situation analysis.
  13. Forestol
    Forestol 7 September 2018 11: 17
    -5
    Let me remind you that on Yeltsin’s order, all KB Mil was transferred / sold to the Americans, such as to start receiving investments. The Americans took out all the developments and drawings that they could. What could not, destroyed. What developments are there if there are no designers or documentation left? Yes, the idea of ​​a tiltrotor is another rope that Chemezov will pull budgetary funds ...
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 7 September 2018 11: 30
      +4
      In a parallel universe, they sold Miley Design Bureau, only part of the shares were sold.
      1. Forestol
        Forestol 7 September 2018 12: 27
        -1
        Sorry, you are pretending to be a fool pretending to be, or is this your image? Explain to you in more detail what was happening at KB Mil at that time? And why did Bell structures go bankrupt?? Where did you work in the 90s, or just heard?
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 8 September 2018 01: 02
          -1
          No, you’re a fool here, with phantasmagoria, you are pretending - KB Mil didn’t sell to anyone, they sold only part of the shares. And what happened in the 90s is everywhere.
        2. bang
          bang 16 September 2018 22: 58
          +1
          BELLovtsy (tentatively BELLovtsy, Sikorsky and others were there) planned to redeem shares for the destruction of Mil, and make repair bases for BELL products from his factories. Not a ride.
  14. Old26
    Old26 7 September 2018 11: 24
    +3
    Quote: Alex_59
    In Soviet times, all this has already passed. When you wanted to have a sample that has no analogues in the world in each direction. Sprayed funds for everything that is possible.

    You know, Alexey! You are right in some ways, and wrong in some ways. Yes, there were many design bureaus, there is no arguing with you. But it is not always possible to talk about the dispersal of forces and means. Unfortunately, the "mass character" of the nomenclature was sometimes generated not specifically by the presence or absence of certain design bureaus, but by the decisions applied there, "at the very top."
    As for several design bureaus, please note that in almost 100% of cases, several design bureaus participated only in the first stages of development, when research and development were carried out, advanced and draft designs were produced in the design bureau. There was "competition". Someone won, someone lost. And the best was usually in the series. But at a certain stage, using "decisions from above" and lower structures began to play on this "violin".

    Quote: Alex_59
    Three types of main battle tanks (well, it’s necessary to load three design bureaus with work!), Hundreds of types of ships, missiles, useless (but not analogous to the world!) Ekranoplanes, vertical planes, seaplanes ... Now here’s another convertiplane.

    Yes, and here you are right, especially in tanks. I can also add a "rocket" example. Competition for the creation of two new missile systems with heavy and light missiles. Two design bureaus participated in the competition. Yangeleevskoe (KB "Yuzhnoye") and, accordingly, KB Chelomey. The competition for the heavyweight competition was won by the Yuzhnoye design bureau, and the lightweight competition was won by Chelomeya. But how so, after all, "Yuzhnoye" worked, why not give him a piece of "pie". Moreover, for Leonid Ilyich, these are fellow countrymen. As a result of the competition, three complexes appeared (the heavy Chelomey one did not pass): two with light missiles and a heavy one, which became famous thanks to its NATO name "SATANA". But light ... According to the competition, the rocket had to have a certain range, carry a certain number of warheads and have a certain throw and launch weight. Chelomeev's "thirty" met all these conditions. But Yangelev's MR-UR-100 - alas. And the starting one was 20 tons less, and the thrown less, and the number of BGs was less than under the terms of the competition. But nevertheless, they began to deploy and built one and a half hundred. But they very quickly and somehow imperceptibly left the stage (they were written off first)
    as for hundreds of types of ships, you certainly got a little excited, but the fact that the series were sometimes 4-7 hulls is certainly overkill. Take the same of our global competitors - USA. destroyer with modifications rivet in the amount of more than 60 hulls. And this and the simultaneous cheapening of construction.
    And we really gave the opportunity to earn extra money for all three tank design bureaus, which sometimes knew whether they would do better or not, and their "product" would be put into production.
    Ekranopalny? Yes, they turned out to be unnecessary, but we must pay tribute to the fact that they were made in the number of EMNIP of the order of 5-6 type "Eaglet" and 1 type "Lun". It would be worse if they made another hundred.
    Vertical?
    Well, here again, everything rested on what the design bureau could do, what the military needed and what happened as a result. In the west, the same vertical lines are still in operation now, but this is only a fragment of carrier-based aircraft. And we made a bet only on VTOL and lost this race

    Quote: Alex_59
    Now here is another convertiplane.

    Whether or not this is hot, but tiltrotor aircraft is the next stage in the development of the aircraft. Yes, in something more complex, but having its own advantages (as well, of course, its own disadvantages). Will there be high-speed helicopters, what carrying capacity, etc. - it’s not yet clear. The machines that are are only experienced. A tiltrotor exist as a given. Of course, we will have to go through all those pits and bumps that the Americans went through, finishing their cars. But this is a process that cannot be replaced by anything. Although we started these works in the years 60-70, we could have the results

    Quote: Alex_59
    All this splendor was one of the bricks on the grave of the USSR. Not the biggest, and not because of this, of course, the country fell apart, but this contributed to the collapse. For some reason, our probable friends solved the same range of problems having, for example, one type of tank or two types of anti-ship missiles. While we simultaneously had three types of MBT, two types of outdated medium tanks and one light tank. But you will get tired of RCC altogether - three dozen projects will be typed for sure ..

    And here you are right. Alas, our decision-making system played a role, when the questions of expediency were decided not by the designers and the military (it is clear that everyone tried to pull the blanket over himself) but were decided by "comrades from the Politburo." And if a member of the Politburo Ustinov "did not like" aircraft carriers, then at least walk on the ceiling, it was impossible to create a full-fledged aircraft carrier under his supervision. About 20 years ago there was such a magazine called "Naval" (I don't know if there is one now). There was a very good series of articles about how, with a scratch, the industry and the military knocked out the next 10-15 thousand tons of displacement for the same "Baku"
    1. akunin
      akunin 7 September 2018 11: 53
      0
      Quote: Old26
      Of course, we will have to go through all those pits and bumps that the Americans went through, finishing their cars.

      dear, well, they did not finish their convertiplanes except for operational characteristics; you take into account the price of production and operation, what advantages do you get for this money?
    2. Forestol
      Forestol 7 September 2018 12: 38
      +4
      All weapons are only a tool for carrying out a strategic plan. If there is no plan, or if it is insignificant, weapons and equipment cost little. The German General Staff developed a strategy for the use of tank wedges, a system for the interaction of all military branches, a system for opening the zones of responsibility of various enemy units .. And after that the Germans smashed everyone, the best army in Europe, France, knelt in the second week of the war ... And the USSR, possessing the best tanks at that time, distributed them to rifle companies ... A tricot is needed for special operations? Which ones? Mass landing? Why? The Americans, with the help of an attack drone, solve the problems of many units, and an operator from California is piloting a drone anywhere in the world .... It is necessary to more carefully set GOALS, and then the tasks will be tightened ...
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 7 September 2018 14: 40
        +3
        Quote: Forestol
        Americans, with the help of a shock drone, solve the problems of many units, and an operator from California pilots a drone anywhere in the world ...

        I love categorical people! With them in the forest is not scary ...
        - And why is that?
        “So they will crush all hedgehogs with their bare ass before you can step on them!” (with)

        It is only in peacetime that the operator can "cloudlessly" control the drones ... And in war, in the conditions of electronic warfare ... something is not particularly believable. And links to control via satellites are a thing of the past. It is more difficult, but these control lines of the UAV are choking, however, like the satellites themselves.
        Therefore, strategic UAVs increasingly rely on the program and AI on board to be "autonomous" and independent of the "takeover" of the opposing side. And this is the main path for the development of all drones, including underwater ones.
        AHA.
        1. Mauricio
          Mauricio 7 September 2018 16: 27
          +1
          Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
          It is only in peacetime that an operator can "cloudlessly" control drones ... But in war, in electronic warfare conditions ...

          again, these magical electronic warfare systems that jam satellite communications with a directional antenna, even though you can’t tell me the model of this miracle. fellow
          1. Evgesha
            Evgesha 7 September 2018 22: 39
            +2
            Do you have doubts that the connection will work stably ????
            And by the way, for what purpose are you interested in the model of miracle?
          2. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 8 September 2018 02: 41
            0
            Quote: Mauricio
            even the model of this miracle-yuda do not tell me?

            From the ground-based complex Kraukha, for example.
            the Krasuha-4 ground-based mobile complex, which is used to set broadband active interference to suppress radio-emitting means of reconnaissance and transmission of space, air and ground-based data at 150-300 kilometers. The complex is effective for counteracting electronic intelligence (RES) reconnaissance satellites such as Lacrosse and Onyx, AWACS and Sentinel aircraft, as well as drones.

            By the way, it is possible to "burn" all output devices near the satellite, including the TU EHV of the UAV Global Hook type. As an option. The Ames have already blamed us for this. We pretended to hear about this for the first time. But then there was a "leak" of the water pipeline ... And in Syria, Am's nightmares were confirmed. Well, etc.
            1. Mauricio
              Mauricio 8 September 2018 08: 32
              +2
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              From the ground-based complex Kraukha, for example.

              take an interest in the radius of action of this pepelats best.

              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              By the way, it is possible to "burn" all output devices near the satellite, including the TU EHV of the UAV Global Hook type. As an option. The Ames have already blamed us for this. We pretended to hear about this for the first time. But then there was a "leak" of the water pipeline ... And in Syria, Am's nightmares were confirmed. Well, etc.

              tell me to begin with what the signal strength should be in order to "burn" then just talk about your "nightmares" laughing
          3. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 8 September 2018 03: 03
            +1
            Quote: Mauricio
            EWs that jam satellite communication with a directional antenna,

            I rummaged, yet I found (in the open press) what you are sowing doubts about. Yes, it’s difficult, but it’s possible in Syria, we have shown this to the Amam in practice.
            In Syria ... To ensure high-precision fire destruction of command posts and other important objects, the task of determining their location was solved by establishing the coordinates of the radio emitting means located on them. It is also known about the suppression of ground-based and space-based radio communications, drone control channels and data transmission from them.
            http://genocid.net.
    3. Alex_59
      Alex_59 7 September 2018 12: 51
      +1
      Quote: Old26
      Yes, they turned out to be unnecessary, but we must pay tribute to the fact that they were made in the amount of EMNIP of about 5-6 type "Eaglet" and 1 type "Lun".

      Yes, but before that, for ten years, the Alekseev Design Bureau spent resources on their design. Then for another 10 years they were busy with testing, fine-tuning and trial operation. At the turn of the 80s, it was already possible to draw some conclusions. But no, we are still creating "Lun". Although after KM and "Orlyonok" and so everything should become clear. Well, even God bless him - there was a search job. What if there would be a real breakthrough product? Okay. But now, why resume all this? The USSR was a richer country, could afford to finance such prospecting work, and against the background of the fact that thousands of tanks and hundreds of aircraft were sent to the troops at the same time. I don't see something today that it was the same. Where are we going to ekranoplans? Give regular planes in marketable quantities!
      about hundreds of types of ships you certainly got a little excited
      No, I didn't get excited. If we take the Military Balance reference book for 1991 and calculate how many projects of ships and submarines were simultaneously in service in the USSR and in the USA, then I think I’ll not be too mistaken if I say that there were 2-3 times more projects in the USSR. And this despite the fact that for the United States the fleet is much more important than for us. For example, in the United States in 1991 there were three types of PLAT in service - Los Angeles and the decommissioned Sturgeon and Permit. In the USSR, 671, 671RT, 671RTM, 705, 945, 945A, 971 were in service. The USA had two types of SSBNs: the new Ohio and the Lafayette being withdrawn, the USSR had 667A, 667B, 667BD, 667BDR, 667BDRM, 941 ...
  15. akunin
    akunin 7 September 2018 11: 45
    +1
    They tried to cross the ox and the quivering doe more than once, but the results are most often deplorable. There is such a thing, a vishka - a hybrid of a spoon with a fork, for me a convertiplane is the same idea.
    1. Villon
      Villon 7 September 2018 12: 40
      +3
      Quote: akunin
      .. there is such a thing, a nut - a hybrid of a spoon with a fork, for me the convertiplane is the same idea.

      Here on this site the idea that every hybrid is worse in terms of performance characteristics of either a helicopter or an airplane has been repeatedly voiced and described. I agree only in one thing that any promising idea can be brought to complete insanity, that is, the sum of throwing down only the shortcomings of both schemes But it is possible and possible to assemble in the perspective device really only the advantages of both schemes, then the resulting device will be able to incorporate really only all the advantages , sometimes even with excess performance characteristics of the original aircraft designs. I mean the achievable fuel economy of a special tiltrotor exceeding the record economy of an aircraft with just a classic design. And this is really real, the theory does not prohibit this, it is just necessary to carefully examine the achievable results in the performance characteristics. I already wrote about this on the site, but I think additional clarifications are required. I think that here the real capabilities of convertiplanes are still not clear to many. I repeat: the envelope’s real economy is theoretically achievable, even an order of magnitude more economical than just a helicopter, but even a regular (standard) aircraft, that is, at the record level of specialized, non-serial aircraft. When designing an aircraft, it is important to have a desire to create something really outstanding and not spend state money to no avail. funds, that is, just cut the loot. All this is a rather subtle matter, it is always necessary to take into account the human factor, I am afraid that here it is really crucial.
      1. akunin
        akunin 7 September 2018 12: 44
        +1
        The mule is also a hybrid, but it is faster than a donkey and more durable than a horse, but it’s not expensive for money, and the tiltrot is expensive and difficult to operate.
      2. businessv
        businessv 7 September 2018 13: 40
        0
        Quote: Villon
        When designing an aircraft, it is important to have a desire to create something really outstanding and not spend state money to no avail. funds, that is, just cut the loot.

        Colleague, the fact is that everything is already designed, as written about it! Case IMHO, it is in the need - is it, or not? In my opinion, the authors are absolutely right when they write about the rather limited possibilities of using this apparatus, which makes us ask a question about its necessity. And as for the babosiks - with very few exceptions, without cutting, nothing is created in Russia, unfortunately!
        1. Villon
          Villon 7 September 2018 16: 36
          +1
          Quote: businessv
          the fact is that everything is already constructed, as written about it! Case IMHO, it is in the need - is it, or not? In my opinion, the authors are absolutely right when they write about the rather limited possibilities of using this apparatus, which makes us ask a question about its necessity.

          Looking through the patent information, I discovered what to say about what " everything is already designed, as written about it! "clearly premature! I think that aircraft of this type have not been developed at all, that is, there are already numerous opportunities for a rather dramatic improvement in performance characteristics due to an insignificant, almost imperceptible increase in the cost of an aircraft. And given the fact that improving performance characteristics, especially in terms of flight efficiency, are to increase the number of such super-economical aircraft (the economy rules), then, in the end, the cost of production of these aircraft should sharply decrease.A comprehensive calculation of economic efficiency with large volumes of production of these aircraft is able to significantly reduce both the production cost and the final cost of the aircraft itself and even more so, the cost of transporting goods, especially to unequipped sites, of which there are an exceptional number of them in our country. So it is worth fully calculating the economics of using these aircraft, and even worth it. I don't see any problems here anymore.
        2. Nedokomsomolets
          Nedokomsomolets 8 September 2018 01: 37
          0
          Oh, here from here in more detail, please. As a purely civilian person, I’m interested in: what exactly, what types of equipment or infrastructure were created in the Russian Federation (this is an indication of time, not space) without cuts and why are you sure about this.
          I have nothing to do with law enforcement or fiscal authorities.
  16. Varaga
    Varaga 7 September 2018 12: 12
    +2
    "If only there were mushrooms growing in the mouth, there would be no mouth, but a vegetable garden."
    And about PAK FA and ARMATU - it’s too early to finish.
    P.S. "Everything will be. But not all at once and not all." (quote).
  17. air wolf
    air wolf 7 September 2018 12: 49
    +3
    My opinion as a helicopter pilot, helicopters have been studied for over a hundred years, so I think it's better to develop the topic of a rotorcraft than a convertiplane:
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ка-90
    1. Villon
      Villon 7 September 2018 13: 36
      +2
      Quote: air wolf
      .. helicopters have been studied for over a hundred years, so I think it's better to develop the topic of a rotorcraft than a tiltrotor:
      Good. Helicopters have been studied and reached almost the limit of perfection, that is, further, in the future, stagnation! Convertibles have not been studied almost completely, and their capabilities are truly colossal, only few have managed to get acquainted with this, but it's a pity.
  18. businessv
    businessv 7 September 2018 13: 31
    0
    Of course, maybe, we can. Questions of necessity and cost come first. And when these questions are answered, then it will be possible to understand what is behind the hype: a cover operation for the next cut of the budget or something more serious.

    Great article! Thanks to the authors! If this device is currently created only in mattresses, then we can say that they have found another way to earn money! With their defense industry complex and its manner of earning money for a comfortable existence, it is quite common to create a "wunderwaffe" that is generally not needed, advertise its need for the troops and - voila! The deed is done, the budget has been used, the army has become stronger, although there seems to be nowhere further, and the military also earned good money in their pockets for lobbying the topic. Something like this. smile
    1. Evgesha
      Evgesha 7 September 2018 22: 41
      0
      This unit was created in Tanya back in the 80s of the last century ....
      here they cut the budget went tady ... they worked on debugging for several years
  19. xtur
    xtur 7 September 2018 13: 49
    0
    I hate know-it-alls

    And for some time now I’m ready to kill them.
  20. vadim dok
    vadim dok 7 September 2018 15: 01
    0
    It seems to me that the Bell V-220 Varior is much better in design!
  21. Faceless
    Faceless 7 September 2018 16: 40
    -1
    What kind of nonsense is the author of the article about “Armata”, Su-57, PAK YES? Who refused them? Even in VO there were articles - refutation of this nonsense. The past ARMY 2018 is direct evidence of this.

    According to the author's opinion, any creation of a new weapon in our country is associated with the need for sawing and theft. If it were so, there would be no "Armata", no "Su-57", nor - at one time - "Topol" and "Borey". You write about propeller driven aircraft - so talk about them.
  22. prodi
    prodi 7 September 2018 19: 19
    +2
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    I poorly imagine a smooth glide path with a working jet engine, in a changing aerodynamics of the aircraft. In addition, we are talking about a fighter project.

    I apologize for the functionality of the VO programmers.
    so what? with a sufficient supply of translational speed and wing area, the rotation of the engine should not be catastrophic (by the way, why the translational speed when landing to zero? - our wheels do not spin, the racks do not bend, or do we sit on skids?)
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 7 September 2018 20: 41
      0
      Because, as I understand it, it was supposed to take off and land without a run. The only reasonable use of the leaning back engine I see in creating a reverse thrust vector when landing. The engine rotation will not be catastrophic in the following scheme: we reduce traction to a minimum, slowly turns engines, and we slowly increase traction.
      1. prodi
        prodi 8 September 2018 10: 02
        0
        Engine obstruction back is needed for steering in the longitudinal plane in helicopter mode, because there is no other means
  23. Old26
    Old26 7 September 2018 21: 13
    0
    Quote: akunin
    dear, well, they did not finish their convertiplanes except for operational characteristics; you take into account the price of production and operation, what advantages do you get for this money?

    You can take into account the price. The price of tiltrotors will be definitely higher than for helicopters. But according to certain performance characteristics, in particular in terms of speed characteristics, tiltrotations bypass helicopters.
    Even with all these minuses, if there is a question of transferring a certain contingent from point A to point B, the transfer on convertible planes has one indisputable plus - speed.
    Any new equipment is always more expensive than the one that has already been tested in the army.

    Quote: Forestol
    A tiltrot is needed for special operations? Which ones? Mass landing? Why? Americans, with the help of a shock drone, solve the problems of many units, and an operator from California is piloting a drone anywhere in the world .... It is necessary to more carefully set GOALS, and then the tasks will be tightened ..

    No need to make a panacea for all occasions from the same drones. Somewhere you can use a drone, somewhere a manned vehicle. In some cases, the first is beneficial, in other cases, the second. And if you need to transfer the unit to point B, I think that it will be important for you to conduct this deployment at a speed of 250 km / h or at a speed of 500 (figures are conditional)
    An operator from California can pilot a drone located anywhere in the world under only one condition, if anti-aircraft and electronic warfare systems are not used against him. Manned in the conditions of electronic warfare it is capable of fulfilling its mission, although it can partially ...

    Quote: Alex_59
    Yes, but before that, for ten years, the Alekseev Design Bureau spent resources on their design. Then for another 10 years they were busy with testing, fine-tuning and trial operation. At the turn of the 80s, it was already possible to draw some conclusions. But no, we are still creating "Lun". Although after KM and "Orlyonok" and so everything should become clear. Well, even God bless him - there was a search job.

    Alas, Alexey, there is no getting away from this. Resources will be spent even if the KB does not give anything in the end. But this is not just design for the sake of design. In any case, nothing is done in this world without relying on something experimental created in the design bureau. Yes, it may take years, and the output will be zero, but this does not mean at all that all these efforts were wasted and the money was also wasted. Take again the same rocket theme. At a certain stage, it became clear that mobile complexes are more tenacious than stationary ones. But they came to this for a reason, with the wave of a magic wand. We went through different schemes, different structures. Gradually came to a definite conclusion. And when in our country the first real PGRK was created with the name "Temp-2s" (it was created difficult, with a lot of options, but it was created). If it were not for this mass of options (at least 6), there might not have been that PGRK, which, in principle, frightened the United States and which was not officially deployed, and then destroyed. But during this time, using both money and time, work was carried out that, at first glance, had no way out and money, as you say, was wasted.
    The "Temp-2SM-1" (15Zh47) complex was developed, which had no way out. And then the Temp-2SM2 complex with MIRV (there were also variants with MIRV and monoblock). And when the time came to destroy the Temp-2S, it was done with a calm council. Because .... Because there were developments that appeared after the ban on PGRK was lifted. A missile with a heavy monoblock part, created on the basis of the 15Zh48 missile of the Temp-2SM complex, suddenly turned into a Topol missile, and the Temp-2SM2 missile without a third stage suddenly became a Pioneer medium-range missile. All costs paid off

    As for ekranoplanes. Well, what can you do if decisions were sometimes made not by the military or designers (and ideally all together), but by the country's political leadership. They were able to prove that these products are the best that there is .. Now, taking into account the "after-knowledge", we can say that this was a dead-end branch. But this is now. Imagine how the same General Secretary should have made a decision. when they began to buzz in his ears that we have another wunderwaffe, which at a speed of 500 km / h is capable of attacking American ship groupings. And the fleet of such "wunderwaffe" will make it possible to sweep the American fleet from the vastness of the world's oceans. What decision will the secretary general make? Do you think he will count how much is spent or how much will need to be spent? Then nobody counted it. It is necessary - they allocated huge funds, even if in the end result these were dead-end areas.

    Aircraft in commercial quantities were then. It’s not enough now, but then there were

    Quote: Alex_59
    But now, why renew all this?

    This is not to understand. Sometimes decisions are made contrary to logic. Or again, so that we have something that’s the most, without hesitation, but whether it is necessary

    Quote: Alex_59

    about hundreds of types of ships you certainly got a little excited

    No, I didn't get excited. If we take the Military Balance reference book for 1991 and calculate how many projects of ships and submarines were simultaneously in service in the USSR and in the USA, then I think I’ll not be too mistaken if I say that there were 2-3 times more projects in the USSR. And this despite the fact that for the United States the fleet is much more important than for us. For example, in the United States in 1991 there were three types of PLAT in service - Los Angeles and the decommissioned Sturgeon and Permit. In the USSR, 671, 671RT, 671RTM, 705, 945, 945A, 971 were in service. The USA had two types of SSBNs: the new Ohio and the Lafayette being withdrawn, the USSR had 667A, 667B, 667BD, 667BDR, 667BDRM, 941 ...

    There really were 2-3 times more projects, but fortunately there were hundreds of types of ships
    the data is not entirely accurate for you. If in relation to PLAT you are really right, speaking about the American "Elks", "Permites" and "Sterzhins", then with regard to SSBNs - in 1991 both boats like "Aten Allen" and "Lafayette" were in service. and James Madison and Benjamin Franklin. And of course Ohio.
  24. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 7 September 2018 21: 48
    0
    I wonder why, while talking about the landing vehicle, everyone continues to cling to the screws? Why are turbojet engines in offers almost invisible? But jet engines can be transonic in speed and less sensitive to the size of the sites, in any case, branches, wires, fences are not as dangerous as for helicopters.
    1. Avior
      Avior 7 September 2018 23: 46
      +1

      EWR VJ 101 - the first supersonic VTOL.
  25. Svetlana
    Svetlana 7 September 2018 23: 53
    0
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    jet engine tiltrotor

    A tiltrotor with turbojet engines (TRD) vertically mounted on a moving blade blade can have rotary nozzles and rotary turbojet air intakes. Rotary turbojet nozzles rotate the vertical jet exhaust jet of the turbojet engine in the horizontal direction, reduce the aggressive effect of the jet stream on the runway.
    1. prodi
      prodi 8 September 2018 06: 44
      0
      This shemka is bigger. And what size and weight will this whole rotating part painted in blue be?
      1. Svetlana
        Svetlana 9 September 2018 23: 11
        0
        The rotating part, painted blue, with a maximum diameter of 52m and a mass of 80t. The mass of the rotating part includes 4 turbojet engines with a mass of 1.5 tons each, 32 pcs of blades measuring 2 m * 6 m, weighing 0,6 tons each. The remaining 54,8 tons are accounted for by the mechanization of the release of the blades, the sheathing of the rotating disk, rotary shields, and the rotating fuel tank. The volume of the fuel tank inside the rotating disk is 105m3. In the non-rotating part, painted in gray, 2 turbojet engines with horizontal reverse of the thrust vector can be added:
        1. prodi
          prodi 10 September 2018 09: 08
          0
          Do you even imagine how, with such a weight of the rotating part, this can be realized practically, with a good speed of rotation (and is it possible at all)?
          1. Svetlana
            Svetlana 10 September 2018 14: 18
            0
            It can be practically implemented on Aviastar in Ulyanovsk. Manufacturing technology - similar to the manufacturing technology of heavy transport aircraft.
            The frame is made of the stationary part (which is gray in the figure), the chassis, turbojet engine, casing, ring bearing - rail circular track are attached to it. The bearing is made of 2 coaxial ring rails of the same diameter, one rail on the other. On these rails, an annular trolley on wheels is installed between them — the basis of the rotating part (a movable disk with blades). The design of the ring trolley on wheels is similar to the design of the wagon trolley of the Sapsan high-speed train, made by welding. The maximum speeds on rails at Sapsan and at the moving part of the diskette are the same, equal to 110 m / s. But unlike the Sapsan, the rotating disk has an upper row of wheels that is in contact with the bottom of the upper rail during take-off and there is a lower row of wheels that is in contact with the lower rail in horizontal flight and at the parking lot.
            The frame of the rotating part is made of frames, stringers, ribs. Fasten them to an annular bearing. Set the mechanization of the extension of the blades, rotary flap. A titanium sheathing of the rotating part with titanium rivets is mounted on the frame.
            1. prodi
              prodi 10 September 2018 14: 55
              0
              and you don’t take into account the centrifugal force, rotating 50m in diameter, 80t of the weight of the structure (across it)?
              1. Svetlana
                Svetlana 10 September 2018 16: 32
                0
                The creep strength of VTZ Ti alloys at 600 ° C is 800 MPA or 8,00E + 08N / m2 (see http://scask.ru/book_brg.php? Id = 45). At centrifugal acceleration a = 605 m / s2 (at a peripheral speed of 110 m / s at a radius of 20 m), the breaking pressure on the radial titanium spar is P = a * ro * L = 2,72 E + 07n / m2, which is 2940 times less than the creep strength Ti VTZ alloys. (ro = 4540kg / m3 titanium density, L = 10m is the length of the spar of a rotating disk).
                Those. titanium spars will withstand the overload that occurs when the disk rotates.
                1. prodi
                  prodi 10 September 2018 17: 02
                  0
                  I continue to doubt that even the vertical axis through the center of the "stationary part" of the aircraft, on which the rotating part will be "mounted" (for maximum unloading of the swivel unit), will keep this pepelats from fiasco; for even "something similar", in the form of A-380, Ruslan or Mriya, do not have such tense knots.
                  Although he probably can fly
                  1. Svetlana
                    Svetlana 12 September 2018 11: 30
                    0
                    The vertical axis through the center of the "fixed part" of the aircraft is not needed, because the rotating part, weighing 80 tons, is mounted on a thrust ring bearing. Let us calculate the permissible mass of the rotating part on an annular bearing, subject to the maximum permissible load on the ring rails. It is known that the Russian Railways network has 2 standards for the length of freight trains - 57 and 71 cars (more precisely, the so-called "conventional car" - 16,82 m ), and the average mass of such trains fluctuates around 5000 tons. But on certain sections of the network, for example, on the Trans-Baikal and Far Eastern Railways, heavy trains with a length of 100-150 wagons and a mass of more than 10 tons run. see https://thequestion.ru/questions/000/kakuyu-maksimalnuyu-nagruzku-sposobno-vynesti-standartnoe-zheleznodorozhnoe-polotno
                    Thus, the mass of 100 wagons with a total length of 1682 meters is approximately equal to 10000 tons.
                    The maximum allowable load in tons per 1 meter of the length of the railway bed is equal to 10000/1682 = 5,9tn / m.
                    The length of the annular rail track of the bearing mounted on the fixed central part of the diskette is 62.8 meters. Then the permissible mass of the rotating part, subject to the maximum permissible load on the rails of the ring track, will be 373,4 tons, which is significantly less than the mass of the rotating part. In addition, the ring rail track is seamless, there will be no knocking on the wheels (unlike the rails of the Trans-Baikal Railway), and the tensile strength of the titanium rotating part under the action of centrifugal force is 29 times higher than the creep limit of titanium alloys.
                    1. prodi
                      prodi 12 September 2018 21: 40
                      0
                      in my opinion, you did not take into account that to the "assumed" force of inertia of the rotating part, a lifting force will be added for this apparatus, which will also become a separation load, albeit in a different plane. And the very method of calculation with the analogy of a rail lying on the canvas (pure compression) against the assumed forces for fracture and separation does not inspire confidence (after all, as I understand it, you will have not just a beam for breaking and not a closed loop, but a simple G -shaped hook with amplifiers). In addition, problems with power, size and weight of engines with a supply of fuel are likely to be added, and the problem of managing a rotating farm will be added (on the radio, or what?)
                      And here, meanwhile, the Osprey do not really fly with us, although they look much easier
                      1. Svetlana
                        Svetlana 13 September 2018 13: 27
                        0
                        With radial overload a = 605m / s2 (60G), the inertial force of the rotating part is much greater than the lifting force of this apparatus, acting in another plane against the acceleration of gravity (1G). Therefore, the pull-off load in another plane can be neglected (60 >> 1).
                        Problems with the power, size and weight of engines with a fuel reserve are solved:
                        Power plant: 4 × turbojet engine D-36 in the rotating part and 2 × turbojet engine D-36 in the central part of the diskette with a thrust of 6.5 tons. Instead of 4 × turbojet engine D-36 in the rotating part, 2 × turbojet engine PD-14 can be installed.
                        Since the frontal resistance to rotation of n = 32 pieces of blades is Fx = n * 0.5 * ro * V ^ 2 * S * Cx / 9,8 / 1000 = 28,45tns and the lifting force they create Fy = n * 0.5 * ro * V ^ 2 * S * Cy / 9,8 / 1000 = 341,37tns
                        then for the promotion of the blades to the desired speed of 110 m / s, 4 pieces of turbofan engines with a total thrust of 28,45 tns are enough
                        here
                        Cx = 0.1 - drag coefficient of the wing
                        Cy = 1.2 - wing lift coefficient
                        ro = 1.2kg / m3 - air density
                        V = 110m / s - peripheral speed of the blades
                        The promotion of the blades to the desired speed of 110 m / s can also be provided by 2 horizontal turbojet engines that blow the raised rotary shields:
                        1,3m, width of a rotary guard
                        2,6m, swivel plate length
                        4,0 number of rotary shields blown by air flow from 2 turbojet engines
                        13,5m2 area 4pcs blown swivel shields
                        170,0 m / s airflow speed of the rotary shields from the nozzles of horizontal turbojet engines
                        28,7tns tangential force acting on raised swivel shields
                        Total:
                        341tn full take-off weight
                        fuel mass in the rotating part 85tn
                        mass of the rotating part of the diskette with fuel 165tn
                        mass of non-rotating part of diskette with fuel 176tn
                        fuel mass in the non-rotating part of the diskette 43tn
                        mass of non-rotating part of diskette without fuel 133tn
                        payload weight 74tn
                        dry weight mass of the non-rotating part without fuel and payload 59tn
                        A rotating economy can be controlled by a broadband noise-like microwave radio signal, as well as through 3 redundant channels of laser optical communication, the lasers are spaced 120 degrees in azimuth of the diskette.
    2. ProkletyiPirat
      ProkletyiPirat 13 September 2018 16: 15
      0
      Quote: Svetlana
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      jet engine tiltrotor

      A tiltrotor with turbojet engines (TRD) vertically mounted on a moving blade blade can have rotary nozzles and rotary turbojet air intakes. Rotary turbojet nozzles rotate the vertical jet exhaust jet of the turbojet engine in the horizontal direction, reduce the aggressive effect of the jet stream on the runway.

      As for me, this is no longer a tiltrotor. Personally, by the word "tiltrotor" I mean a certain aircraft:
      1) with at least one main rotor providing "hovering" with the ability to change the hover height from 0 to N meters from the surface
      2) having a mechanism for tilting the plane of rotation of the rotor (s) of the rotor (s) in order to reduce (up to 0) the lifting force and increase the pushing / pulling force (up to N)
      3) having a limitation: all screws not used in the process of horizontal flight should not significantly interfere with this horizontal flight - it means the creation of additional resistance, vibration, additional fuel consumption, etc. etc.
    3. ProkletyiPirat
      ProkletyiPirat 13 September 2018 16: 23
      0
      Quote: Svetlana

      Is there a place where the full description and normal schemes (ideally 3D) of this "disc" are posted? For example, some google dock with commenting capability? well, or a page on some forum? It's just not the first time I've seen pictures of this aircraft, but I still can't build the full principle of its operation in my head. Therefore, it is not even possible to formulate a question or clarify.
      1. prodi
        prodi 13 September 2018 17: 22
        0
        yes, you won’t convince you, although one type of construction hanging on two vertical rails 165t and holding on them only by the flanges of the wheels ... But, let's say you have a more competent connection, let's say that you organized the air supply and your heavy-duty engines in a rotating parts will not suffocate during takeoff, in rotation, and in horizontal flight, in a fixed position. Suppose you are able to make this disc be controlled by pitch and correct rolls; you’ll figure out how to load loads into it - and much more. But no one tried to make a model according to this scheme, so that it would simply take off vertically and go into horizontal flight (can it be in any direction)? Judging by the declared characteristics, this would be worth doing, and then everything would become clear in comparison with other models of traditional aircraft
        1. Svetlana
          Svetlana 15 September 2018 08: 35
          0
          The problem of surging compressors of vertical turbojet engines can be solved, for example, by installing a high-speed system for regulating the fuel supply to the nozzles of the turbojet combustion chambers, which briefly reduces the fuel supply to the vertical turbojet engines at the moments when the air inlets of the vertical turbojet engines cross the exhaust jets from the horizontal turbojet engines. Or by organizing the intake of vertical turbojet engines through the area of ​​a thrust ring bearing from the air intakes of horizontal turbojet engines.
          The yaw angle is controlled using electrified wheels on the rails of the thrust bearing, changing the angle of the central part of the diskette relative to the horizontal velocity vector. The diskette pitch angle is controlled by releasing flaps mounted on the perimeter of the rotating part between the blades in azimuths of 0,180 degrees. The roll angle of the diskette is controlled by releasing flaps mounted on the perimeter of the rotating part between the blades, in azimuths of 90,270 degrees. You can make a radio-controlled modelka in an aircraft model circle from the following parts:
          1) glue the diskette body out of carbon (carbon fiber) blanks cast in special molds made of carbon fabric coated with an epoxy compound.
          2) instead of horizontal and vertical turbojet engines, use electric fans and batteries from a quadrocopter with Aliexpress. Electric fans are installed on their seats in the bodies of the rotating and non-rotating parts of the diskette pre-glued from carbon.
          3) plastic wheels and rails of a thrust bearing, are made on a 3d printer.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. prodi
            prodi 15 September 2018 19: 08
            0
            you are so hard on this stupid scheme, as if it was yours. Maybe you'd better think of something like this:

            here, in essence, there is only one problem - power transfer between propulsors
            1. Svetlana
              Svetlana 15 September 2018 20: 44
              0
              Your plane resembles the famous gold aircraft of the Tyrone Indians. The same vertical fans on the wing, spiraling the flow of air. The same vertical air intakes in front of vertical fans
              and in the tail it looks like vertical nozzles for vertical take-off. In 1969, the mysterious "aircraft" of the Tyrone Indians were subjected to examination. Computer simulations and real tests of copies of gold "airplanes" in a wind tunnel showed their good flight characteristics.
              Question: vertical air intakes are made for
              increase in air supply to the turbojet engine, as the area of ​​horizontal air intakes
              does not allow to miss the required amount
              air at vertical take-off?
              1. prodi
                prodi 16 September 2018 20: 23
                0
                I will not say for the artifact, but helicopters, it seems, feel not bad.
                With regards to the scheme, it is unlikely that there will be anything more than Osprey, but, in any case, there is hope that it will be faster, more reliable and more convenient
  26. vdm
    vdm 8 September 2018 11: 08
    0
    The only real convertible plane UAV in the Russian Federation


  27. Lara Croft
    Lara Croft 8 September 2018 13: 25
    0
    Exactly the same picture when landing assault landing method from helicopters. The advantages of low altitude are offset by the low speed of the helicopters. In fact, the successful landing of an airborne force depends in many respects not even on the training of flight personnel and airborne troops, but on the ability to hide the very possibility of disembarking as long as possible.

    Apparently the US Army Command is ignorant if they have Br. AA for a hundred helicopters, and in the 101st high-altitude military school of the 18th airborne military complex 400 units.
    The US Airborne Forces and the ILC moves only by helicopter and no more ...
    Yes, and the US BTA is more numerous than ours
  28. petrol cutter
    petrol cutter 8 September 2018 22: 10
    +2
    And what will the comrade paratroopers say about this (which, in fact, should be used by these devices)?
  29. Yarhann
    Yarhann 10 September 2018 02: 40
    -1
    I know hell, but if it had given Mask the opportunity to develop something like that, it would be an ordinary turboprop aircraft with several small liquid-propellant rocket engines for vertical launch and landing. He worked perfectly on this technology on his returning units. The fuel is the same kerosene, well, an oxidizer is also needed separately.
    The beauty of rocket engines is that they, with their small size, can give excellent traction.
  30. ProkletyiPirat
    ProkletyiPirat 12 September 2018 15: 48
    0
    The article needs to be put a minus already for the fact that the Ka-22 is called a tiltrotor, since Ka-22 is a helicopter with additional pushing screws and he has nothing to do with convertiplanes at all.
    As for the assertion "spite bad because it falls" and the like, then you can of course object "helicopters at the dawn of their existence fell much more often" but the layman is not interested... Unfortunately, ordinary people, journalists and similar "experts and analysts" do not care deeply about helicopters and tiltrotors and airplanes, and none of them wants to study the advantages, disadvantages and problems of different types of aircraft.
  31. Usher
    Usher 28 October 2018 13: 02
    0
    Quote: yehat
    all helium airships also died, like ordinary hydrogen


    you are either lying or absolutely not up to date with the topic.
    The operation of gel airships has been going on for more than a century and is quite successful. Thanks to the Germans - they filled cones on themselves and on hydrogen airships, which the Americans then quietly circumvented (helium on an industrial scale for a long time mined cheaply only)
    The airship can neither land nor take off vertically from unprepared sites


    I do not understand. Why would an airship land and take off everywhere? Can't it work like a crane? and about the "prepared" platform - the airship needs only a mast to which it can be tied. The parking issue can be solved either by a hangar (as the Germans did with the Zepellins), or simply by pumping gas into some tanks.
    Finally, partly balloon technology can be used to heat the gas.

    And yet - I perfectly understand the main difficulties in using airships and in the first post I wrote that there are inconveniences, moreover, there are places with such a climate where the work of airships is a big question, but how stupidly inconvenient is it to use mega-helicopters for mass transportation and installation?

    Finally, it’s time for the freaking engineers to remember that for a number of patrol tasks
    better than the airship now there is nothing at all (well, maybe the geostationary satellite will be better somewhere, but this is not a panacea at the moment)
    In solar and non-cloudy areas, airplanes with solar panels performed well, but they are even more limited than airships.

    What fairy tales are you talking about?
  32. dokusib
    dokusib 3 December 2018 11: 45
    0
    The next article is about nothing from the authors who are completely unaware of the issue they are writing about. I advise Messrs. Skomorokhov and Staver to figure out what a cover plane is and what a high plane is
  33. SOUL.
    SOUL. 8 May 2019 23: 02
    0
    As I understand it is waiting for us a material from the movie "Avatar"