Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact: a blank check to the aggressor or the victory of Soviet diplomacy?

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Unfortunately, during the video link held on the anniversary day of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact 23 in August at the MIA “Russia Today”, the organizers did not manage to involve its most vehement critics in the discussion. And in general, the 79 anniversary of the signing of the Soviet-German non-aggression treaty was, perhaps, noted only by experts.

Meanwhile, Western propaganda has long characterized the then Russian-German agreements only as the fourth partition of Poland. And politicians from Estonia and Latvia - the two ministers of justice clearly connected their dubious demand for compensation from Russia during the years of occupation to the anniversary.



Disputes about whether the Pact itself contributed to the outbreak of the Second World War, or whether it delayed, if not its beginning, then at least the blow of Germany to the Soviet Union, are still going on.

However, it was from Estonia that this time they managed to hear a really alternative point of view on this non-aggression treaty. And not at all critical, since an Estonian passport and half Estonian by nationality, well-known international journalist, political analyst Vladimir Illlyashevich generally believes that the pact was one of the first stones that the Soviet leadership managed to lay in the foundation of a future victory.

Moreover, there are quite a few experts who believe that the sources of the current state sovereignty of many countries, including the Baltic states, include, among other things, the position taken by the USSR in negotiations with Germany. Moreover, the conditions on which a few months after the signing of the pact itself the Baltic republics were part of the Soviet Union, were completely forgotten.

In 1938, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia were actually abandoned by their main anti-Soviet ally, Great Britain, which even withdrew its fleet from the Baltic ports. The prospect of absorption by Germany became so real for them that there seemed to be no other alternative for the countries of Europe, which were hardly the poorest at the time, apart from joining the USSR.

It was not bad to remind our neighbors more often that by that time political regimes were established in the Baltic countries that were very similar to Hitler's. The welfare of the population was very, very doubtful, unemployment reached 70 percent, and there was no talk of any respect for human rights or freedom of speech in Lithuania or Latvia, and especially in Estonia. In a sense, the way to power by the local communists was paved by their predecessors, and not by the Soviet troops.

Military historian Alexander Bondarenko reminded that at the same time the Soviet Union itself at that time was also unlikely to have a real alternative to the agreements with Germany. The Russian ambassador to Estonia, Alexander Petrov, recalled in this connection that as early as the 90s, the German politician, the long-term chairman of the CSU, Theo Weigel, decisively dismissed all the speculations on this topic, believing that story placed the aggressor and the one who then had to defend himself.

Today, it is not easy to find such brave politicians in the West, especially since the topic “Russia's guilt” is again very popular there. However, in the opinion of Vadim Trukhachev, an associate professor at the RSUH, it is imperative to remember that the topic of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, as almost the source of all the misfortunes that happened then, was promoted by the British politicians in the same way as it is done today in Crimea, Donbass and the same the case of Skripale.

But the non-aggression pact in itself, and even its notoriously secret secret protocols, fully corresponded to the pre-war political practice. The same treaties and pacts, by the way, managed to be concluded by Germany and Poland, and Poland with the Baltic countries. In Estonia, the current authorities prefer not to recall the Selter-Ribbentrop Pact at all, and in Latvia the Munters-Ribbentrop Pact.
Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact: a blank check to the aggressor or the victory of Soviet diplomacy?

Estonia and Latvia managed to sign non-aggression pacts with Germany six weeks before the Soviet Union

Both pacts signed by Baltic diplomats with the minister of Nazi Germany are also non-aggression, although the Germans would first have to do something with Lithuania to attack Estonia and Latvia. But even in the Baltics, even today there are still people who are well aware that without these pacts there could have been no Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact.

However, their voices in Riga and Tallinn prefer not to hear what the Estonian citizen Vladimir Ilyashenko recalled during the video bridge. The failures in the memory of those in power there are clearly related to the fact that Hitler could promise anything to the Baltic countries, but in reality he was not going to do anything.

Moreover, not in modern Russia, but also in the USSR at the Congress of People's Deputies, legal assessment was given to both the main provisions and the secret protocols to the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. The congress recognized the legal inconsistency of the latter, and condemned the very fact of signing the protocols.

And this despite the fact that, formally, the contract, neither in form nor in content, did not stand out from a number of similar agreements between those or other countries at that time. It can not be described as the issuance of a carte blanche to Hitler at the beginning of hostilities against Poland. At the same time, the notorious Munich Agreement is different, just how such a carte blanche is not regarded even by Western politicians and historians.

Yes, Hitler Germany began the war with Poland literally several days after the signing of the non-aggression pact by Molotov and Ribbentrop. However, by no means the provisions of the secret protocols became the basis for the entry of Soviet troops into Western Ukraine and Belarus - the legendary Liberation March.


Such a foundation was in itself the collapse of the then Poland, as a sovereign state. And no matter how hard the Western media asserted about the “fourth section,” not a single serious politician, even in Poland, would ever think of returning the territories lost in 1939.

Ambassador Alexander Petrov recalled, in this connection, his conversation with an outstanding diplomat, now deceased Yuri Kvitsinsky. He directly described the non-aggression treaty as a victory for Soviet diplomacy, while recalling the extremely difficult situation in which the USSR then found itself. In the midst of the fighting were at Khalkhin Gol, and on the north-western border, everything was clearly going to war with Finland.

Vladimir Ilyashenko noted that the question of the responsibility of the USSR for agreements with Germany is openly bloated, for which considerable efforts were made by Great Britain. Everything was done sequentially using a powerful layer of fraud, as it is now called - fake News, was done purposefully when the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact was turned into a long-term propaganda tool.

However, as Alexander Petrov noted, the pact itself was no different from dozens of similar documents of that era. Even the notorious secret protocols, all the hype around which is connected precisely with their secrecy, are more technical in nature. And they were classified only in order not to inform the countries that they may be affected. This is a common diplomatic practice.

According to the testimony of Alexander Bondarenko, at the same time, there was, for example, a secret protocol to the treaty of the same UK with Poland, which gave the British the right to invade in case of an attack on Poland by Germany. As you know, in the course of the “strange war”, the United Kingdom somehow did not hurry with this right to exercise.

The perennial attacks on the Soviet-German treaty are clearly designed to erode political sentiment in Europe. Moreover, against the background of the numerous political combinations, which in those years Great Britain turned the old continent in the north, the pact can be generally considered an insignificant particular, Alexander Bondarenko is convinced.

Vadim Trukhachev, supporting such an assessment, insists in general that it would be simply naive to evaluate the Soviet-German treaty as a prerequisite for a world war. By that time, both the German and Polish armies were already prepared for battle, the British and French were also actually ready for war. The causes of the war ripened much earlier, and it is not by chance that the Second World War is considered by most serious historians as a continuation of the First.

According to Trukhachev, the straightforward slide into war began as early as the negotiations in Locarno in 1925, when England and France forced Germany to give guarantees regarding its western borders, and did not set any conditions regarding the eastern ones. In the future, the Soviet Union left no alternatives other than to go to an agreement with Germany.



But even then, the USSR went into negotiations with Germany, in fact, the last, although the country's leadership understood quite well that it was unlikely to be able to avoid a global conflict with the fascists. As a result, the pact most likely helped delay the start of a major war.

Well, the direct entry of the Red Army to it in Western Ukraine, Belarus, and then in the Baltic States pushed the border tens of kilometers to the west. It would not have been to assess the tragic events of the 1941 of the year, the German invaders still had to overcome these kilometers. And overcome with fights.
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  1. +19
    24 August 2018 04: 33
    And politicians from Estonia and Latvia — two ministers of justice — have clearly dated their dubious demand for compensation from Russia over the years of occupation for the anniversary.

    Take, for example, the mythical occupation of the Baltic states and Poland. It is said that the Soviet occupation was worse than the German one. We look at the statistics. During the German occupation, the number fell, while under the Soviet it grew. How many extermination concentration camps have been built by the USSR on the territory of these countries. No one!!! Yes they will say, but there was a GULAG. Firstly, the difference between a concentration camp and a camp is that they are sent to a concentration camp without a court decision and indefinitely, and a camp by a court decision and for a period determined by the court. Secondly, the number of prisoners is greatly exaggerated, in the most difficult years of the war the number of prisoners did not exceed 2,5 million. Now there are about 5,5 million in the United States (every fifth in the world). http://trudoros.narod.ru/teor/repress_sousa.htm But the older generation has not died yet, it remembers how it lived in the USSR, so the Baltic countries introduced a criminal law denying the Soviet occupation and now they monopolistically lie about the "terrible Soviets". This is such a "democracy", to shut up the mouths of opponents, and to lie about the "horrors of occupation". That is why there are so many potheads. If America and its mongrels speak about Russia only in a negative light, people, especially young people, have a wrong opinion about it, and this is necessary for the education of mankurt and the war with Russia. All of her funds work only for this. To instill hatred for her among Russia's neighbors and play them off in the war. The Americans, by and large, have always fought by proxy. And they live well by robbing the rest of the world. They produce 20% and consume 40% of the production. And fairy tales about defending democracy are for fools. Here's a typical example of a Western horror story. The insidious Russian communists staged the Holodomor to starve freedom-loving Ukrainians. As many as 6 or 7 million have died. The question is, if they started starving, why didn't they starve at all ??? This question never occurs to idiots. Because there is nowhere to come. In fact, the Holodomor was provoked by Western democracies, which refused to supply equipment for the newly built Soviet industry for gold, oil and timber. And they agreed to accept payment only in grain. The Soviet state took a risk, in addition, there was a drought and famine spread not only across Ukraine, but also across the southern regions of the RSFSR and Kazakhstan. Moreover, it was aggravated by the sabotage actions of the Trotskyists, who concealed the scale of the famine and were shot or punished for these crimes. But now they are counted as "innocent" victims of Stalin. The Soviet government bought grain from Persia, but time was lost.
    1. -3
      24 August 2018 05: 41
      The Balts clearly preferred the Nazi occupation to the Soviet, as they themselves are the same Natsik as the Nazis.
      The “Holodomor” happened even under the tsar-priests - Russia was the leading supplier of wheat, and the landowners were not particularly worried about the large harvest or not and whether there would be anything left for the peasants.
      I don’t agree with you about the States - if you can buy 20% for 40% of the products you produce, then your products are of high quality, expensive and in demand.
      1. +7
        24 August 2018 07: 06
        I don’t agree with you about the States - if you can buy 20% for 40% of the products you produce, then your products are of high quality, expensive and in demand.


        They live by printing, not provided with anything, dollars. It costs 100 cents to print a $ 3 banknote. And the goods are purchased for a full $ 100. The American currency is backed by the might of the American army. And if someone does not agree, then he is declared a "bloody dictator" and planes and cruise missiles arrive there on the wings of democracy.
        1. +7
          24 August 2018 07: 25
          About the States do not agree with you

          1. +3
            24 August 2018 08: 50
            This is a photo of the city of Detroit, by the way, when Trump began to rebuild this city.
            1. +11
              24 August 2018 10: 58
              Quote: RUSS
              This is a photo of Detroit.

              Yeah ... Detroit Central Station is recognized immediately.
              By the way, from Detroit there were still good photos:

              1967 year. No, this is not US fraternal assistance to the people of South Vietnam, who are exhausted in the Vietnam War. And this is not a bloody regime that introduced tanks into the city to suppress the uprising of freedom fighters. It is the US National Guard that is restoring constitutional order in Detroit during the riot of self-aware US citizens.
            2. +12
              24 August 2018 11: 19

              And this is not Saigon during the New Year offensive - but the same Detroit.
              Events in Novocherkassk, say ...
        2. -1
          24 August 2018 08: 05
          The dollar is currently provided with 68 rubles.
          1. BAI
            +5
            24 August 2018 09: 28
            The ruble-dollar rate has never been real. Either administrative or speculative.
            1. +2
              24 August 2018 09: 30
              What's the difference? Though inferal-valotilnom. The fact remains that the dollar is 68 rubles at the time of writing this comment.
        3. +2
          24 August 2018 10: 14
          The dollar is also supported by the economies of those countries that use it as the main means of payment to guarantee this process and the US army exists!
      2. +4
        24 August 2018 09: 49
        About the preferences of the population of the Baltic states is a rather complicated question.
        It was about half to half. The ruling elite was influenced by the Germans (purely historically), but the poor looked towards the USSR. At the same time, we do not forget that a significant part of the active population of the Baltic states, which sympathized with the USSR emigrated (or rather remained) to the USSR - this is a hello to the Latvian arrows.
      3. +2
        24 August 2018 10: 08
        But the Non-Aggression Treaty itself, and even its notorious secret protocols quite consistent with pre-war political practice. (from text)

        Why is he so notorious? - the fact that the so-called Is the "secret protocol" a crudely concocted fake? This "document" was for the FIRST TIME published in american compilation "Nazi-Soviet relations 1939-1941" Washington 1948. The most interesting thing is that the "document" was published WITHOUT LINK TO THE SOURCE. belay True, much later the "original" of the document itself appeared, with the signature of Molotov, which the student would even better forge, but this is already another "detective" story.
        Going further, the course of the Polish company clearly shows that not only a "secret protocol", but also an oral agreement on the line of demarcation was not. There are many examples, when the Germans take the city, and then give it to us (Lviv for example). This suggests that the "demarcation line" was formed in the course of the company itself, that is, in the "online" mode and nothing else. hi
        1. +4
          24 August 2018 11: 32
          Quote: Proxima
          Going further, the course of the Polish company clearly shows that not only a "secret protocol", but also an oral agreement on the line of demarcation was not. There are many examples, when the Germans take the city, and then give it to us (Lviv for example). This suggests that the "demarcation line" was formed in the course of the company itself, that is, in the "online" mode and nothing else.

          This argument is not entirely correct.
          First, the line of demarcation from the "secret protocols" might not have been communicated exactly to the direct executors.
          Secondly, the continuation of the offensive "beyond the line" could be caused by operational and tactical considerations - to finish off the defeated enemy, preventing him from re-forming on "alien" territory, or to defeat the enemy grouping in this territory, eliminating the threat of a strike on the flank.
          And finally, if the line of demarcation was not initially there, and it was formed during the campaign, then why did the Germans have to give up Lviv and Brest, for which they fought long and hard?
          1. +2
            24 August 2018 12: 20
            Quote: Alexey RA
            ..the line of demarcation from the "secret protocols" might not have been communicated exactly to the direct executors.

            A little naive, but at least the Wehrmacht general could, without going into details, mark this line?
            As for the "operational and tactical" considerations, I agree with you.
            But about:
            Quote: Alexey RA
            ... why did the Germans have to give up Lviv and Brest, for which they fought long and hard?

            "Long and hard" - yes! lol Almost like the defense of Sevastopol! The Germans withdrew their units from Lviv and Brest under pressure from the USSR through long negotiations. The main argument for the pressure was clearly not the mythical "line", but was that these are the original lands of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus, which have nothing to do with Poland, and even more so with Germany. request
            And finally, the main pressure point of the government of the Soviet Union is threat of denunciation of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty. Germany, which, albeit nominally, fought a war with three states (Britain, Poland, France) was forced to make concessions. hi
            1. +1
              24 August 2018 14: 17
              Quote: Proxima
              A little naive, but at least the Wehrmacht general could, without going into details, mark this line?

              Judging by German orders, the commanders of army groups did not have this line.
              On September 15, Bok ordered the commander of the 4th Army to organize an offensive to the east with the immediate task of reaching the Volkovysk-Grodno line (150 km from the Soviet border). The 19th Motorized Corps was tasked with “advancing to one of the motorized and one armored divisions to Wlodawa, Kovel. One motorized division, reinforced by a tank division, was subordinated to the 4th Army with the goal of reaching the Baranavichy-Slonim line through Kobrin (50 km from the Soviet border). Accordingly, the 2nd Motorized Division moved towards Kobrin, and the 3rd Panzer Division went to Wlodawa, which it occupied on September 16th. The advance detachments reached Luboml. Parts of the 22nd motorized corps came here from the south.

              But the leadership of the Wehrmacht, she was:
              However, at 2.00 am on September 17, the German command was informed of the Red Army entering Poland and at 7.00 am ordered its troops to “stop on the Skole – Lviv – Vladimir – Volynsky – Brest – Bialystok line”

              Quote: Proxima
              "Long and hard" - yes! lol Almost like the defense of Sevastopol!

              Compared to the total duration of the Polish campaign, these battles can be considered long and stubborn. smile
      4. +1
        30 August 2018 11: 47
        it’s not worth talking about the Baltic states as a single force of some kind. There were socialists, and nationalists, and communists and supporters of being a vassal of Germany and to the peak of them are supporters of the vassalism of Sweden or England. There were different ones. But when the republics joined, it was the socialists and communists who were the strongest, which ensured the peacefulness of the unification process. Here is what you need to remember. And now they are trying to imagine the Balts so that there were only 2 groups of the population - pro-Germans, who served in the SS and the police and partisans who mowed down the Red Army in billions.
        One should not forget that all these countries gained independence thanks to Russian officers of the tsarist army and bourgeoisie, and by no means local national "activists", and there were quite a few Russians living there.
    2. -8
      24 August 2018 08: 52
      The occupation was and it is a fact, its results are not unambiguous, each side perceives it differently.
      1. +4
        24 August 2018 10: 59
        Quote: RUSS
        The occupation was and it is a fact, its results are not unambiguous, each side perceives it differently.

        Let's figure out what this "occupation" was and what kind of "division" it was from the Soviet side. To begin with, let's restore the chronology of events. on September 17 The Red Army set foot on the lands of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus. on September 14 Warsaw was completely surrounded. From that moment on, the "defense" of the capital no longer had any strategic or political significance. Furthermore On September 15 (two days before joining!) The Germans were already in Lviv! Further - more, the German ticks closed in Chelm (a few kilometers from the present Ukrainian city of Starovoitovo. All remnants of the Polish divisions located between the Vistula and the Bug were surrounded! WHAT LEFT WE HAVE TO DO! ?? would have closed up already near the old border, THIS IS IN KILOMETERS FROM MINSK, for example. At the time the Red Army entered the "Polish" land, there was virtually no Polish government or Polish armed forces. hi
    3. 0
      25 August 2018 08: 25
      Quote: Z.O.V.
      they are counted as "innocent" victims of Stalin. The Soviet government bought grain from Persia, but time was lost.

      Not only in Persia, but also in Australia. West countries coupled with the United States refused to sell grain even for gold.
      1. +2
        26 August 2018 18: 15
        The same for you. In organizing the World Revolution and the struggle of the world's first socialist state for its existence, it is foolish and even criminal to hope and expect that Western democracies will help this world's first socialist state. Moreover, they knew very well that they themselves should someday be caught in the fire of the World Revolution.
        In addition, it should be understood that in the case of payment of any goods purchased by the USSR, it does not matter whether it is grain or plants from France or England (including the dominions of the latter), for currency or gold, the governments of France and England could easily confiscate our currency (gold) in payment of royal debts and debts of the Provisional Government.
        But confiscate wheat then, in the bourgeois world, the crisis of the overproduction of this very wheat, and such that wheat is burned in steam locomotive fires, in figs no one needs. So, what else is there to see. Maybe wheat paid for the purchase of our plants in the USA was the same ingenious solution that allowed us to buy what we need, essentially free of charge. Since the USA didn’t need our grain in FIG, they didn’t know where to put it, but they managed to pay off any claims of England and France at the root.
        And further. We had nothing to drive grain from Australia at that time. This means that we could talk not only about the sale, but about the sale with the terms of delivery to the seaports of the USSR. Such contracts are not quickly concluded. Indeed, in the world freight market, you must first find and charter vessels that will participate in the transportation of grain from Australia to the USSR. And it should be dozens of ships. Finding which is not so easy.
    4. +2
      26 August 2018 17: 30
      It is also not worth going too far. What does the notorious "Western democracies" have to do with it? Moreover, this term actually means only the United States. Did they, the United States (or if it is more pleasant for you - "Western democracies") concluded agreements with the USSR for participation in the industrialization of the USSR for currency (gold), and then brazenly refused to fulfill them, demanding payment in grain? No, there were no contracts. Moreover, we did not even have diplomatic relations with the United States. Yes, the "Western democracies" (that is, the US industrial companies) have acted despicably towards us. But the hope that they would kiss our lips with us was not that stupid, but criminal.
      We wanted to take advantage of the situation in the most industrialized country in the United States and buy entire plants there. As a result, we bought them. But for the price that sellers set. But we could not buy plants in the USA. It was possible, albeit not on such a scale, but purchased in Czechoslovakia, Italy, Germany, Sweden, and even in Japan. But we wanted to buy in the USA and bought in the USA.
      It’s possible to agree that Russia is now ruining Usraina, refusing to accept the payment for gas in the form of Ukrainian lard from Independent, but demands payment in hard currency.
  2. +15
    24 August 2018 05: 08
    Such a foundation was in itself the collapse of the then Poland, as a sovereign state. And no matter how hard the Western media asserted about the “fourth section,” not a single serious politician, even in Poland, would ever think of returning the territories lost in 1939.

    A state subjected to aggression declares itself at war with the aggressor. If on September 17, 1939 the government of Poland was still in Poland. Then show me the note, signed by Polish President Moscitzky and Polish Foreign Minister Beck, that they declare Poland at war with the USSR.
    The commander-in-chief of the army of any state during the invasion of the aggressor troops on the territory of this state gives the command to his troops to repel the aggression. But the Commander-in-Chief of the Polish Army, Marshal Rydz-Smigly, gave such a command on September 17: “The Soviets invaded. I order the withdrawal to Romania and Hungary by the shortest routes. We shall not conduct hostilities with the Soviets, only if they try to disarm our units. The task for Warsaw and [Modlin], which must defend themselves against the Germans, is unchanged. [Parts], to which the Soviets approached, should negotiate with them with a view to leaving the garrisons in Romania or Hungary. Supreme Commander-in-Chief of Poland Marshal E. Rydz-Smigly.
    This is not to mention that this responsibility was transferred to the company and battalion commanders - it was upon his orders that they should go to Moscow and arrange with Voroshilov about their admission to Romania, since, of course, no other Soviet commanders should conduct such negotiations They didn’t have the right and would not. Show me in this order where Rydz-Smigly gives the command to repel "Soviet aggression"? It is said about the Germans - you fight there in Warsaw and Modlin, and I ran to Romania to hide - but where is anything like that said about the Red Army?
    Further. Romania was in a military alliance with Poland precisely against the USSR. Show me the note in which Romania declares war on the USSR.
    Further. France and England, the allies of Poland, after the attack on Poland, Germany presented the last ultimatum, which demanded the withdrawal of German troops from Poland, and only after that (September 3) declared war on Germany. Show us the ultimatum of France and England, in which they require the Soviet Union to withdraw its troops from Poland. Moreover, even the League of Nations did not declare the USSR an aggressor country.
    1. +2
      24 August 2018 05: 43
      Poland was no longer as a state, what aggression? laughing
  3. 0
    24 August 2018 05: 35
    If at all, these protocols were.
    1. +9
      24 August 2018 12: 35
      Quote: Dart2027
      If at all, these protocols were.

      Secret Protocols to the Non-Aggression Treaty between Germany and the Soviet Union (Deutsch-sowjetischer Nichtangriffspakt) no.
      At the beginning of perestroika, under Gorbachev, a photocopy appeared from a typewritten copy of supposedly “secret protocols” from the German Foreign Ministry. Democrats assured that this is a reliable copy. This was allegedly indicated by the fact that the typewritten copy with which the photocopy was made was printed on a typewriter, which, according to some information, was used in some department of the Reich Foreign Ministry.
      Later, Yakovlev, our "foreman of perestroika", allegedly "found" in the archives of the Central Committee of the CPSU another, but already a typewritten copy of the "secret protocol" in Russian.
      The originals of the "secret protocols" are neither German nor Russian, and no one has seen them, neither veterans of the USSR Foreign Ministry, nor veterans of the Reich Foreign Ministry, not even Molotov and Ribentrop have seen them either.
      There have been several articles analyzing the test of these "secret protocols". They contain a lot of errors, including errors in the geography of the dividing line, which are simply impossible in real international documents of this level.
      1. -1
        24 August 2018 17: 55
        Quote: Ivan Tartugay
        There have been several articles analyzing the test of these "secret protocols".

        This is what I mean.
      2. +2
        25 August 2018 08: 46
        When they talk about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, for some reason no one mentions the initiator of the conclusion of the treaty. And Germany was the initiator. Moreover, the USSR put forward preliminary conditions, not agreeing to which Germany would not be able to conclude this pact. These conditions yavl. "Trade Agreement". under which Germany provided a huge concessional loan. The USSR placed orders at German machine-tool factories, chemical factories, etc., and paid with Reichsmarks received under this loan.
  4. +8
    24 August 2018 06: 13
    Everyone misses one moment ... the state of the USSR at the time of signing ... the war with Japan, it was easy to get more problems on the western borders, but this was avoided. One more factor is missing, the results of the First World War were made, then the distinctions were made and the USSR only confirmed its rights to the territories seized from it during the years of the civil war ... no one allowed the Poles and the Baltic states, unlike the Finns, who did not allow self-determination.
    1. +1
      24 August 2018 10: 22
      I will supplement your reasoning. You "miss" such a "moment" that smart historians do not miss your arguments. And it is the professional falsifiers of History who are engaged in omissions, assumptions, speculation and other crap on the order of real warmongers of all wars. This is not a reproach to you, understand right!
  5. +14
    24 August 2018 06: 23
    The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is the basis of victory over the Axis. He was imprisoned at the very moment when the USSR bent Japan to the horse-drinking pose. and in Tokyo, the pact caused a shock - they regarded it as a betrayal. ONLY THEREFORE, Japan, in turn, did not attack the Far East in December of the 41st, which would definitely have ruined the Union, but on the contrary, it rested in the opposite direction, signing a non-aggression pact, in turn, allowing the divisions to be transferred from the Far East and Siberia to Moscow. Profit! The only way Soviet Russia could survive was to destroy the AXIS. For then, both the Anti-Comintern block and its creatures — the Third Reich and Japan, which the United States clearly squeezed out with sanctions, were against the USSR wink to the Far East of the USSR, they say there are all the resources for you, we will not sell you anything.
    And yes - Hitler defeated the USSR. This alone is enough to send all this bastard
    1. 0
      24 August 2018 11: 10
      I will correct it.
      Quote: Jerk
      Pact The Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty is the basis of victory over the Axis.
  6. -10
    24 August 2018 06: 30
    Brainwashing for the post-war decades does not allow us to understand the absurdity of these constructions in defense of the notorious Pact.
    1. The pact was "the greatest victory for Soviet diplomacy." Those. how would the USSR government cleverly offer Germany friendship? Well no, this is Hitler proposed her to the USSR! And in the Kremlin, busy with the Khalkhin-Gol events, they happily clutched at this proposal, like a straw. And what is the wisdom here?
    2. "The USSR got a respite." From what? From an immediate war? Those. Hitler offered us an ultimatum, it turns out: either you bastards are friends with me, or I you ... No, sir, he flew in with a dove with a twig in its beak. And then there were no plans to fight the Soviets, and he would never have gone to such a thing, having behind his back "friends" at Versailles. all these are absurd and pathetic inventions.
    3. Again, "the USSR got a break." What, the Pact was signed before June 41st? No, he signed up for 5 years! For 5 years, Karl !! And Hitler, when he wanted to sign it, and when he wanted, tore it up. It was a respite for him, for him!
    Acceptance of German proposals in full (there was nothing bad in the normalization of relations) was the greatest stupidity, probably in the entire history of the USSR’s foreign policy. Worse than the Munich Conference, where European guarantors decided to play gentlemen with Hitler. And we must learn bitter lessons from this failure, and not inflate the miserable babble of excuse.
    1. Cat
      +12
      24 August 2018 08: 01
      What does "pitiful babble" have to do with it?
      Governing the country, especially in the foreign policy arena, has slightly different moral and ethical values. So I think, politically, the pact didn’t really change anything. He corny gave hope to the Soviet leadership on the non-intervention of Germany, in solving its problems.
      Or do you think the presence or absence of a pact somehow changed to a decision on the liberation of the lands of western Ukraine and Belarus? Or the beginning of the Soviet-Finnish war? I think no!
      The most interesting thing is that almost all European countries managed to come to an agreement with Hitler Germany, including Great Britain, France (Munich agreement), Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, but only Russia is blamed indiscriminately!
      Sincerely, Kitty!
    2. +3
      24 August 2018 08: 39
      Quote: M. Michelson
      Brainwashing for the post-war decades does not allow us to understand the absurdity of these constructions in defense of the notorious Pact.
      1. The pact was "the greatest victory for Soviet diplomacy." Those. how would the USSR government cleverly offer Germany friendship? Well no, this is Hitler proposed her to the USSR! And in the Kremlin, busy with the Khalkhin-Gol events, they happily clutched at this proposal, like a straw. And what is the wisdom here?
      2. "The USSR got a respite." From what? From an immediate war? Those. Hitler offered us an ultimatum, it turns out: either you bastards are friends with me, or I you ... No, sir, he flew in with a dove with a twig in its beak. And then there were no plans to fight the Soviets, and he would never have gone to such a thing, having behind his back "friends" at Versailles. all these are absurd and pathetic inventions.
      3. Again, "the USSR got a break." What, the Pact was signed before June 41st? No, he signed up for 5 years! For 5 years, Karl !! And Hitler, when he wanted to sign it, and when he wanted, tore it up. It was a respite for him, for him!
      Acceptance of German proposals in full (there was nothing bad in the normalization of relations) was the greatest stupidity, probably in the entire history of the USSR’s foreign policy. Worse than the Munich Conference, where European guarantors decided to play gentlemen with Hitler. And we must learn bitter lessons from this failure, and not inflate the miserable babble of excuse.

      Did the USSR receive an increase in territory from this pact? Got. Was the territory important in 1941? And how! So why is this not a victory of Soviet diplomacy?
      1. -1
        24 August 2018 16: 15
        Quote: Krasnodar
        Was the territory important in 1941? And how!

        This territory in June 41 was lost in a matter of days with minimal losses for the Wehrmacht and amazing to us. What is its importance?
        1. +1
          25 August 2018 14: 39
          The German army in 1941 in one operation went through about the same as the American in the Iraq war. It is possible that this territory saved Leningrad, Gorky and Moscow from occupation.
          1. +1
            27 August 2018 16: 50
            Quote: gsev
            It is possible that this territory saved Leningrad, Gorky and Moscow from occupation.

            Maybe of course she saved, or maybe it was more correct to withdraw all the troops and depots from the western border and thereby save them from destruction in the first days and weeks after the invasion.
            The figures who were in the Kremlin did not know how to think, but were saved by the millions of lives of our soldiers.
            1. 0
              1 September 2018 22: 41
              I suppose that the General Staff of the Red Army before the Great Patriotic War correctly assessed the capabilities of the German military machine based on the experience of the Franco-Prussian War of 1870 and World War I. The USSR was ready to take heavy losses in the initial period of the war, and unlike France, new divisions were immediately formed instead of broken divisions, stockpiles of weapons and ammunition were created for new formations. If France in 1 could, like the USSR, mobilize and form a new army and accept the blow of the Germans in the depths of its territory, then the results of the war would be different. In addition, the USSR in 1870-1939 could be subjected to aggression in addition to Germany from England, France, Poland, Japan, Turkey .. The 1942 pact helped to eliminate this danger.
          2. +3
            27 August 2018 22: 20
            A harmful and defeatist theory. "We needed more territory, which ... ... we had to give the Germans for the longest possible period, during which the party would mobilize the people for defense, create divisions of the people's militia, bring up the Far Eastern divisions, the evacuated industry would start working in the Urals, and then let us chase the Germans. "
            In fact, in 1941 we had an Army capable of keeping the Germans out 50 kilometers from the border. For this, in June 1941, we did not need either Far Eastern divisions or divisions of the people's militia. The only thing we needed was to meet the enemy in pre-prepared defensive fortifications. But this is precisely what Hitler deprived us of. No matter how they later blamed the Stalin Line - it was still a powerful system of fortified areas, relying on which we could stop any enemy. Remember where the Red Army got the opportunity to defend on prepared lines - there the German offensive was choked. Where for a short period, where for a longer period, and where and forever. These lines could be cities. Mogilev, Borisov, Sevastopol, Tallinn, Voronezh, Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad, Tula.
            The Germans could not take the Kiev fortified area. Bypassed.
            And we met the war unarmed on the defensive side. The Stalin line was dismantled, the Molotov line has not yet been created. If in 1941 we would have met the enemy, relying on the well-fortified (and even more fortified for the period from 1939 to June 1941) Stalin's line, we would not have had to then come up with a theory that the main thing in the summer of 1941 was not to delay and to defeat the enemy, but "to delay a little - and retreat, and to delay a little - and again retreat ... and so on until Moscow and Leningrad."
            No, it is impossible to agree with the fact that, having received territory from Hitler, we won something very much. It turns out that Hitler counted us. He realized that having received the territory, we will defend it. Which is what happened. And it struck at the very moment when, as I said, we had already ruined the Stalin Line, and the Molotov line had not yet been put into operation.
            1. 0
              27 August 2018 23: 05
              Sitting in fortified areas is a direct path to defeat .... The Germans broke through any fortified areas. Up to the Maginot Line.
              On June 14, 1940, the 1st and 7th infantry armies of Army Group C, Colonel-General Wilhelm von Leeb (promoted to Field Marshal on July 19, 1940) attacked the Maginot Line and broke through it. The defenses of the Maginot Line were broken through in a few hours as a result of an infantry attack, even without tank support. German infantry attacked with powerful air and artillery support, smoke shells were widely used. It soon became clear that many of the French pillboxes could not stand the direct hits of artillery shells and aerial bombs. In addition, a large number of structures were not adapted for circular defense, and they could easily be attacked from the rear and flank by grenades and flamethrowers.

              Would Soviet fortified areas (construction began in the late 20s) really stand up? The French had to cover the front in 400 km. The USSR would have to build a defense for a thousand kilometers. The fact that defense is death is known to all Wehrmacht commanders. Guderian wrote about this in 1936.
              Any commander, with the threat of a breakthrough, ordered an attack. Right now I am reading PanzerMayer's memoirs. To defend is to perish. Therefore, he counterattacked at the first opportunity. Mellenthin wrote, "If you have one tank and one platoon of infantry, attack."
              The dignity of the Covenant is not only and not so much in the territory. These are mobilization opportunities, this is an improvement in the outline of the borders. Who held the Pripyat swamps before 1939? And they divided the German troops. How many km were from the border to Leningrad and Minsk? I can tell Minsk was 50 km away. I don’t know from the Estonian border to Leningrad.
              And the most important thing. The situation of 1939 ... The treaty was vital. Dozens of books and studies have been written about this. In short messages all cannot be retold.
              1. 0
                27 August 2018 23: 44
                To illustrate, we can cite the textbook breakthrough of the Letichevsky Fortified Area in Ukraine. One of the first and most powerful URs of the Stalin line. The Germans broke through it in a few hours. Two days later, the defense in this direction was broken through to the full depth.
                From the combat magazine of the German 4th Mining Infantry Division
                "... At 21.30 the task was completed in all sectors. On a wide front managed to break through the line of Stalin with the help of only two regiments operating in the first echelon ... "

                http://ukrepraion.com/july1941/proryv-letichevskogo-ukreprajona/
              2. +1
                28 August 2018 21: 06
                June 14, 1940 German troops led by the brave General von Leeb broke through the Maginot Line? Well, what can I say? One could of course applaud von Leeb. If you did not know another significant fact of this war. Namely, the one that fell on June 14, 1940, Paris. And before that, Belgium surrendered. Before that, the British evacuated their troops from Dunkirk to England, abandoning all their heavy weapons. If you do not know that by June 14, 1940 the Maginot line was left almost completely without field troops, which were removed to plug holes in the north of France and which burned down in the battle for this northern France. The Germans decided to storm the Maginot line when the war was already practically won by them - the French left Paris, which is very significant. Significantly in favor of the line.
                So did the Maginot line play a role? Answer: yes, I did. The Maginot line had two tasks. The first is not to let the Germans through them. The second is to direct the German strike on France in a narrow northern section through Belgium. Where they were supposed to meet and break, while the Germans split their forehead on the Belgian forts. And it’s not the fault of the Maginot line that the Germans managed to seize the Belgian fortifications, remove Belgium from the game, defeated the French several times and forced the British to evacuate. The Maginot Line fell at the same time as Paris.
                1. 0
                  29 August 2018 00: 41
                  The fact that Paris fell and the allied forces have already fled to the island, somehow diminishes the success in breaking the Maginot line? Is it not a fact that the Germans successfully took fortresses and fortified areas as early as the First World War?
                  This is now talking about the role of the Maginot line. Her role has never been reduced to sending the Germans to Belgium. The main task is to fight at the front, BASED on the Maginot Line. So she did not play her role in any way. A minor fact. Prior to this, Fort EbenEmael and ALL fortified areas of Belgium fell. Once again - the facts show that sitting on the defensive is a defeat in the war.
                  PS The whole discussion boils down to the fact that sitting in well fortified positions could win the war. Defeat the Germans and any adversary and drive him in the neck. This is fundamentally the wrong approach. Guderian explained this clearly in 1936 in his book Attention Tanks. The Finns did not sit on the Mannerheim Line. The French did not sit behind the Maginot line. The Soviets could not hold out in the fortified areas. Just like the Japanese in 1945. The same Greeks could not stay on the Metax line. The Germans in Italy could not sit on any of the fortified lines. The attacker ALWAYS has the advantage, finds a weak point and breaks through any defense.
                  The breakthrough is sealed by reserves. Now tell me, what reserves can breakthrough seal mobile? Infantry divisions or mechanized? So 20 MechCorps is not a whim of Zhukov, but an understanding of how to fight.
                  1. +2
                    29 August 2018 19: 00
                    Of course belittles. Very detracts. It’s a pity that you don’t understand this. Let's look at the dates.
                    So on June 10, 1940, the French Government fled from Paris.
                    June 11, Paris was declared a free city.
                    On June 12, a decision was made on a general retreat to the southern part of France, and the authorities headed for a truce with the Germans. Troops were withdrawn from the defensive lines south of Paris, and the withdrawal (and expedited, in order to avoid encirclement) of field troops from the Maginot Line was begun. On the line, it was decided to leave only full-time garrisons.
                    On June 13, there were no longer French troops in Paris, but there were still no German troops.
                    But France’s radio, as well as Goebbels’s radio, had already announced that the French Government had left Paris, that Paris had been declared a free city, that tomorrow German troops would solemnly enter Paris. And also that the British betrayed and it is necessary to negotiate a truce with the Germans.
                    What was the French fighting on the Maginot Line on June 14 ????
                    In addition, I remind you that on June 12 all field troops left the Line. And field troops are a necessary element of the defense of each line, both the Maginot Line and the Stalin line. Therefore, the Germans could bypass the bunkers, go to their rear and so on.
                    No one (except you) says that you need to sit out in the URs. The fortified areas are needed so that the very first and most terrible attacking strike of the Germans who have not suffered a single defeat is crushed about them. And when this blow is broken and the Germans lose their confidence that they are the best and they can all - our tank and mechanized corps will align because of the level, to which the success of our troops in the defense gave confidence in the Victory. And for it is not necessary to have 20 buildings (which our industry could not have equipped anyway). And enough of those that
                    1. +2
                      29 August 2018 19: 47
                      Enough of those that we had as of 22.06.1941/1941/1943. The fact that the Germans are stupid to attack "from the wheels", especially when they are not yet broken, was proved by 1943. When in June-July we tried to attack the Germans on a collision course. With the exception of some isolated cases, we had no success. And these isolated cases were then leveled out by the general deterioration of the situation. But in the summer of XNUMX, Stalin categorically refused to consider the option of an attack on the German troops prepared for the Battle of Kursk. Let the Germans attack first, we will exhaust them on the prepared defensive lines and only then will we strike. "Bolshe no offensive. Enough, go to step," said Comrade Stalin. Although the Germans were already beaten many times by the summer of XNUMX. But nevertheless, even attacking our troops prepared for the defense, the Germans managed to dig deep enough into our defenses. But you need to understand that our defense on the Kursk Bulge is only a pale shadow of the Stalin Line.
                      About the breakthrough of Letichevsky UR. Yes, they broke through. But why ? Yes, because the garrison of UR did not read even half of the staff, and what he read was not soldiers, but draftees. Moreover, full-time heavy and machine gun weapons, the UR practically did not have. Although the recruits still could not shoot. The field troops of the UR consisted of our already defeated and retreating troops. He was already exhausted. Moreover, they could not conduct artillery fire, since there were 1-2 shells per gun, and 2-3 mines per mortar. Therefore, German tanks podzodili close range and shot the pillboxes. About which no one cared since 1939.
                      And if in this UR there was a full-fledged armed personnel garrison and a full-time field army, not yet beaten by the Germans? Was there a couple of our armies and mechanized corps behind UR? And if we built another 1939-1941 well-armored pillboxes in this UR for the period 20-June 30? Yes, who the hell would take then Letichevsky UR.
                      1. +1
                        29 August 2018 23: 10
                        About the Mannerheim Line. The power of this line is greatly exaggerated by our political propagandists, as well as Rezun-Suvorov. This time. By two, this is what Finland perfectly understood that it would lose one on one war with the USSR. Therefore, the task that Finland set for itself is to hold out for 2-3 months until England, France come to the aid of the Finns, until the USA intervenes and so on. The Mannerheim Line of Finland provided the fulfillment of this task. And it’s not the fault of the Mannerheim line that in addition to several thousand Swedes and several hundred Norwegians, no one came to the aid of the Finns.
                      2. 0
                        30 August 2018 11: 52
                        an example near Kiev - the Germans didn’t break through the fortified area there, but they went around, surrounded and it did not last long.
        2. 0
          26 August 2018 01: 20
          Its importance in the territory itself. When planning Barbarossa, the Germans had to split the operation into two parts. The depth of operations of that time was 200-300 km. A pause was planned in the Smolensk region. This territory did not allow the Germans with one blow to reach the approaches to Moscow.
          In general, talk about this agreement has already been sucked from all sides. This is a definite victory for Soviet diplomacy.
    3. +7
      24 August 2018 11: 56
      Quote: M. Michelson
      3. Again, "the USSR got a break." What, the Pact was signed before June 41st? No, he signed up for 5 years! For 5 years, Karl !! And Hitler, when he wanted to sign it, and when he wanted, tore it up. It was a respite for him, for him!

      Given the real state of the Red Army in 1939, a respite was needed precisely for the USSR. In fact, in September 1939 the USSR did not have an army - because since August the most ambitious of reforms began in the Red Army, during which it was necessary to completely rebuild the army deployment system for a major war.
      The Commission on Organizational Activities under the NGO established under the decision of the Main Military Council under the chairmanship of the deputy commissar of defense commander of the 1st rank G. On July 27, 1939, Kulika decided to deploy ordinary rifle divisions with 4 personnel on the basis of the triple deployment infantry divisions. The commission concluded that all military districts could accommodate new divisions, there were also enough material reserves, therefore, by November 100, 1, it was necessary to switch to a new organization of infantry troops and by May 1939, 1, prepare new mobilization plans.
      In accordance with the decision adopted, on August 15, 1939, People's Commissar of Defense Marshal K.E. Voroshilov gave directives No. 4/2 / 48601-4 / 2/48611 to the Military Councils of the Leningrad (MVO), Moscow (MVO), Kalininsky (KalVO), Belorussian (BVO) and Kiev Special (KVO), Kharkov (KhVO), Orlovsky (OrVO), Volga Volga Federal District), North Caucasian (North Caucasian Military District), Ural (UrVO) and Siberian (Siberian Military District) military districts, according to which they should form 25 departments of rifle corps from August 1 to December 1939, 18, transfer personnel divisions to the new staff of 8 people and deploy 900 divisions of triple deployment in 36 divisions of b 92 people.
      © Meltyuhov
      In fact, the Red Army overnight lost its entire reserve - until December 1939 there were no troichats, and there were no cadre divisions yet. Plus, cadre divisions are also being transferred to new states. There are no mob plans either - they will only be in the middle of 1940.The reform is traditionally not provided with technology and weapons:
      For self-loading rifles, 45-mm anti-tank guns, 122-mm howitzers and 76-mm anti-aircraft guns, incomplete coverage was expected during 1939 on the basis of their receipt from the industry, and the need for anti-tank rifles, 12,7 mm machine guns, 50 mm, 107 mm and 120 mm mortars, 152 mm howitzers, 37 mm and 45 mm anti-aircraft guns and automobiles were satisfied with the receipt from industry in 1939-1940.

      And that was just the beginning. Then there was the Soviet-Finnish war and its result - read as a sentence to Voroshilov and company "Act on the admission of the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR", revealing the entire depth of the chaos in the army.
      1. +2
        24 August 2018 17: 53
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Given the real state of the Red Army in 1939, a respite was needed specifically for the USSR

        extremely controversial ....
        in addition to the Finnish campaign, there is an example of Khalkhin-Gola - where the Red Army fought not so bad ...
        but this is not even the main thing - in 1939 Hitler had neither tank armies, nor experience in conducting a modern war ... request and there were no modern tanks yet - the basis is T-1, T-2 and Prague ... T3 and T-4 are a ridiculous amount ... and in the Red Army there were 36 TBRs, quite combat-ready, 12 kakorpusi, etc. And finally - Hitler did not have the industry of France and oil of Romania, as well as 40 Finnish and Romanian divisions bully but there was a second front in the West - whatever it is, but it was ... request
        1. -4
          24 August 2018 20: 38
          extremely controversial ....
          Clear as a day. In 39g. Germany did not have an army capable of fighting the USSR. And there was no respite, because from 39 USSR army degraded due to Stalin’s actions
          1. +1
            25 August 2018 16: 33
            1) I absolutely agree with your first thesis - the Wehrmacht in 39g had no chance against the Red Army hi
            2) with the second it’s not so simple ... in addition, the IVS acted more to strengthen the Red Army, but at that time there was a layman in military affairs, but the tank troops in 41g destroyed the GKZh - began the formation of 20MK request
            1. +1
              26 August 2018 08: 49
              Did the Wehrmacht have a chance against the USSR this knowledge after the fact. For 1939 he had every chance according to politicians and the military. Indeed, the incomparably more powerful army of France did not dare to oppose Germany.
            2. 0
              27 August 2018 11: 43
              Quote: ser56
              1) I absolutely agree with your first thesis - the Wehrmacht in 39g had no chance against the Red Army

              Against the Red Army that was in films and books - yes. But against the Red Army, which was in the "Act of transferring the NKO" and the "Meeting of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) of the commanding staff" - here there were chances for a heavy and bloody war for the USSR. sad
              Quote: ser56
              but the tank troops in 41g destroyed the GKZh - began the formation of 20MK

              It is good to possess aftertaste. And if he is not? And there are intelligence reports like:
              During the attack on France, the Germans used heavy tanks weighing 32 tons, weapons: one 105 mm gun, one 77 mm gun and 4 to 5 machine guns. Team of 7 people. Width is more than 2 meters. Combat speed up to 18 kilometers. A total of 10 motorized divisions (400 tanks) participated in the offensive, of which only 2-3 had 1 regiment of heavy tanks (in the heavy division, 1 regiment of light and medium tanks — 250 units and a heavy regiment — 150 tanks).

              Или:
              The total production capacity of 18 German factories currently known to us (including the Protectorate and the Governor General) is estimated at 950 - 1000 tanks per month.
              Bearing in mind the possibility of rapidly deploying tank production on the basis of existing automotive tractor factories (up to 15-20 plants), as well as increasing the production of tanks at plants with their well-established production, we can assume that Germany will be able to produce up to 18-20 thousand tanks per year .
              With the use of French tank factories located in the occupied zone, Germany will be able to additionally receive up to 10.000 tanks per year ...
              Head of Intelligence
              General Staff of the Red Army
              Lieutenant General Golikov

              What should an NGS do with such numbers on hand? Moreover, as Speer’s experience showed, these figures for the release of BTT for the Reich are quite real.
        2. 0
          26 August 2018 08: 47
          The question is about the front in the West. Was he or was he not? Facts say he was gone
        3. +1
          27 August 2018 11: 27
          Quote: ser56
          in addition to the Finnish campaign, there is an example of Khalkhin-Gola - where the Red Army fought not so bad ...

          Ahem ... Do you think leaving the infantry division from the boiler formed by the motorized units is a good operation? Because the Voroshilov commission, which arrived on the X-D, suddenly found that:
          Comrade Stalin ... As expected, there were no divisions in the encirclement, the enemy either managed to withdraw the main forces, or rather, there were no large forces in this area for a long time, and a specially trained garrison was sitting, which is now completely destroyed. ..

          With an operation depth of 25 km, the ring closed for almost five days! The northern group, instead of blocking the detected OP at the "Finger" height with rifle units and a dash towards the southern group, fought against this height with all its might for four days. And the Southern group reached the meeting line and froze on it. The end is a little predictable - the main forces of the Japanese left the emerging cauldron through the gap between the groups.
          And I still don’t remember about the extreme instability of territorial formations revealed on the same X-D.
          Quote: ser56
          but this is not even the main thing - in 1939 Hitler had neither tank armies, nor experience in conducting a modern war ...

          We had it even less. The Germans have been honing the tactics of using camp groups since the mid-20s - even under the Sect. The first kampfgroup of classical composition appeared at their exercises in 1928. And after practicing tactics, they set to work on the technique - and managed to discover its main flaws even under Anschluss.
          In 1939, however, we had neither tactics nor equipment. Our tank brigades, with the almost complete absence of infantry and artillery in them, were suitable only for supporting infantry (no, in theory there was infantry, but in fact most of the infantry fighting squad was formed without it). And the mechanized corps were primarily dangerous for their rear - in the very first operation with their use, the mechanized corps machinery blocked all the rear roads and stood up without fuel. To remove traffic jams and supply fuel and lubricants, Marshal Budenny and transport aviation had to be involved. Think about it: the mechanized corps at the march on their rear had to supply fuel with the help of the Air Force.
          As for the technology, the T-26 was considered obsolete back in 1937. The picture is the same with the BT. Both types of tanks can be pierced with a mallet at every conceivable distance. But with "two" and "three" already not so simple - due to known problems with the 45 mm BBS.
          Actually, Kh-G was indicative in terms of the use of tank brigades - there was both an attack by tanks of a hastily prepared anti-tank gunnery division of an infantry division, and an attempt at a "deep" operation to encircle one division. You know the results.
        4. 0
          27 August 2018 11: 28
          Quote: ser56
          and there were no modern tanks yet - the basis is T-1, T-2 and Prague ... T3 and T-4 are a ridiculous amount ...

          Our situation is even worse - there are no anti-ballistic reservation tanks at all. Even the Japanese VET was dangerous for us.
          By the way, did you know that in 1937 ours considered the "Czech" as a replacement for the outdated T-26? wink
          Quote: ser56
          and in the Red Army there were 36 Tbres, quite combat-ready,

          Yeah ... tank brigades without infantry, artillery and with a minimum rear. Against the tank divisions, exhibiting campfunds balanced in terms of equipment and infantry.
          And, again, let me remind you of the reform - in 1939 the Red Army had only personnel divisions. Moreover, if the reform is not carried out, then the Red Army also does not have a reserve - according to the experience of France-40 of the "troika" division, after mobilization and division by budding, the output is something that is not much different from the freshly formed unit and requires at least three months of study.
          Quote: ser56
          And finally - Hitler did not have the industry of France and the oil of Romania

          And in 1940 we did not have an aviation industry mobilized in 39, a tank production of the STZ, ChKZ and other factories established or modernized in 41-XNUMX.
          Just as an example: for a limited war with Finland, it was necessary to remove equipment from the brigade of the border KOVO:
          PAVLOV: Today, in the Kiev Military District, there are 14 tanks in four tank brigades. The war sold them apart, tank brigades scattered. I have to say bluntly, if there will be mobilization now, our KOVO brigades are not ready.

          And to attract half of the tank plants to repair equipment.
        5. 0
          30 August 2018 12: 01
          in 39, the Red Army was not able to coordinate modern hostilities. This was proved by the events of Spain, Khalkhin Gol and the Finnish company. Almost the entire small fleet of tanks had bulletproof armor and terrible reliability with an acute shortage of literally everything - from trained crews to shells, fuel and mechanics. The main advantage of the Red Army was a very powerful tactical bomber aircraft - airplanes TB, SB and others. The Germans, despite the large shortage of materiel, already in the year 39 had about 25 divisions capable of operating at a new level and had a very modern nomenclature of aviation production. Therefore, for operations of a limited scale, Germany was ready much better than the USSR, but for a total war in 39, the USSR was as poorly prepared as Germany, but had more strategic reserves and reserves.
    4. +5
      24 August 2018 12: 14
      Quote: M. Michelson
      The government of the USSR deftly offered friendship to Germany? No, it was Hitler who proposed it to the USSR!

      And this is the victory of Soviet diplomacy. Since initially neither Germany nor Britain were going to agree with us. Everything went to the point that the Germans would nevertheless move east, while France and Britain would sit on the sidelines and see to it that the sides did as much damage to each other as possible. Those. The Second World War would have started earlier, within the old borders and without Lend-Lease. In any situation, we would have suffered losses without getting anything in return. But our diplomats stubbornly tried to conclude this agreement with the Allies. As a result, for Germany there was always the threat of the formation of a full-fledged military alliance against it. And Hitler was forced to give up his interests in order to eliminate this problem. The Germans, who had previously sent us almost directly, suddenly presented us with a treaty and delimitation of spheres of influence. This is indeed a very serious achievement of Soviet diplomacy.
      Quote: M. Michelson
      "The USSR got a respite." From what? From an immediate war?

      It is true that such formulations are a jamb of many similar articles and textbooks. Let's just say, the Soviet Union tried to expose the patient, rolling in its entirety and dumping in the sludge. Instead, they deceived themselves, having lost half of Europe and forced to render us military assistance and negotiate as a full-fledged ally.
      Quote: M. Michelson
      It was a respite for him, for him!

      This does not concern us. The Allies basically did not want to let Soviet tanks and Soviet divisions into Europe. We could not attack, because were a strategic rival for both the Germans and the British with the company. But we could strengthen the defense. And the notorious treaty very seriously strengthened this defense. But getting it was not easy, but initially even impossible.
      Quote: M. Michelson
      Worse than the Munich Conference, where European guarantors decided to play gentlemen with Hitler.

      On the contrary, much better. In the days of Munich we acted in accordance with the agreement and mobilized the required number of divisions. But they sent us, said that they would sort it out without us, and practically persuaded Czechoslovakia to lie under Germany and Poland. In that situation, there was practically nothing we could do. Germany and its interests came under the protection of Britain & Co.
      Turn on the brain or something. Munich strengthened Hitler for free. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, on the contrary, made him give up his interests.
    5. +6
      24 August 2018 13: 02
      Your will .. But you my friend have reported. What straw? The conditions were set by the USSR. And the main condition for signing a nonaggression pact was the signing of a trade agreement .. And Hitler, as cutie, fulfilled all the requirements of Stalin. I got acquainted with the contents of this trade agreement. Germany experienced greater humiliation only when the act of surrender was signed .. The clauses of the agreement were drawn up in an openly mocking tone .. Get acquainted with the nomenclature of deliveries to the USSR from Germany. All that they delivered is a weapon or means for it And when you get acquainted with the list of deliveries from the USSR to Germany ..- do not subscribe to laughter .. All of Stalin’s requirements were fulfilled unconditionally .. Even part of the territory was sold to Stalin inhabited by Lithuanians. whom he included in Lithuania. And Vilnius passed them to .. But the Chukhons prefer not to remember this. This is aerobatics in diplomacy. Stalin knew perfectly well that he would have to fight with Germany. And in a situation of war without allies he used it 100%
    6. +5
      24 August 2018 14: 49
      Quote: M. Michelson
      What, the Pact was signed until June 41st? No, he signed up for 5 years! For 5 years, Carl !! And Hitler, when he wanted to, signed it, and when he wanted, he tore it up.

      Dear Michelson! At first glance, your arguments can be called beautiful, somewhat witty, but if you dig at least a little, they are completely rotten.
      Could Stalin have suggested in the 39th year that the Pact would last until June 41st? - of course not! The reason for this is Britain and France, which in the 40th year managed to the fullest! Nobody expected such agility from the Wehrmacht! Moreover, the fall of France and the elimination of the continental contingent of Great Britain surprised even most of the generals of Germany. It seems that after the impossibility of carrying out Operation Sea Lion, the Pact turned into just a piece of paper - but no! This piece of paper became the forerunner of another "piece of paper", namely, signing a neutrality pact between the USSR and Japan (April 13, 1941). This was an indisputable success! good drinks Everyone was furious! - Germany, Italy, UK, USA. Stalin again did not pour water on the mills of potential rivals! He even violated the conceivable and inconceivable diplomatic etiquette. He personally escorted the Japanese ambassador to the train car! belay
      And if you return to your phrase again:
      Quote: M. Michelson
      Hitler, when he wanted to, signed it, and when he wanted, he tore

      What do you mean "wanted"? Do you have an idea of ​​what "wanted" and what is "had the opportunity"? - then watch "Prisoner of the Caucasus".
      So, Hitler in June of the 41st had the opportunity to annul the Pact. And who provided this opportunity to him? - right - France and Britain. hi
      1. 0
        1 September 2018 06: 16
        In April 1941, I.V. Stalin could not break diplomatic etiquette. Since he did not hold public posts.
    7. +6
      24 August 2018 15: 12
      Quote: M. Michelson
      Brainwashing for the post-war decades does not allow us to understand the absurdity of these constructions in defense of the notorious Pact.

      Forgot one more "absurdity". Grandfather Stalin, together with the Pact, took a loan from Hitler for 200 million "Reich rubles" in order to spend them not on the construction of stadiums and memorials, but on the purchase of machinery and equipment for factories for the production of weapons and equipment in Germany, which later went to Berlin hit the road, although there was no one to give the loan.
      1. +5
        24 August 2018 15: 45
        Quote: atos_kin
        ..Grandfather Stalin, together with the Pact, took a loan from Hitler for 200 million "Reich rubles" in order to spend them not on the construction of stadiums and memorials, but on the purchase of machinery and equipment for factories for the production of weapons and equipment in Germany, which later to Berlin to hit the road, although there was already no one to give credit.

        With your post you clearly show that the root of the word "wit" is intelligence. Thanks. good hi
      2. +4
        24 August 2018 17: 19
        Quote: atos_kin
        Grandfather Stalin, together with the Pact, took a loan from Hitler for 200 million "Reich rubles" in order to spend them not on the construction of stadiums and memorials, but on the purchase of machinery and equipment for factories for the production of weapons and equipment in Germany, which later went to Berlin hit the road, although there was no one to give the loan.

        A simple example of such purchases is the preparation of the STZ for the release of the T-34:
        ... among those ordered by the Stalingrad Tank Plant as necessary for the production of T-34 machines, there were:
        - screw-cutting “Heydsireich and Garbeck” 13 pcs., “Beringer” 11 pcs., “Dr. Brown” 1 pc .;
        - turning and rotary "Niles" 35 pcs .;
        - turning and multi-cutting “Guishold” 11 pcs .;
        - revolving "Heinemann" 18 pcs .;
        - Dental "Maag" 2 pcs.;
        - gearshakers “Reinecker” 6 pcs., “Lorenz” 3 pcs., “Pfauter” 1 pc.;
        - universal grinding "Schmalz" - 1 pc .;
        - intra-grinding "Wotan" 1 pc .;
        - slot grinding “F. Werner "3 pcs.;
        - grinding “Glisson” 1 pc.
        Against this background, a variety of speculations about "supplying the Stalinist USSR with Hitler aggression" acquire a very special flavor ...
        © Ulanov / Shein.
    8. +1
      24 August 2018 17: 57
      Quote: M. Michelson
      Worse than the Munich Conference, where European guarantors decided to play gentlemen with Hitler.

      They did not play gentlemen, but brought him to the borders of the USSR. According to their plan, he was supposed to attack along with the Poles and with their support.
    9. 0
      26 August 2018 19: 32
      1. Delirium, the negotiations were difficult, especially in the trading part. "Indiscretion" in the requirements and desires of the Soviet delegation was noted by the leaders of all the branches of the Nazi Germany - Goering (Air Force), Keitel (Ground Forces) and Raeder (Navy).
      2. Samples of the latest German weapons, purchased in 1940-1941, made it possible to evaluate their capabilities and a number of technical solutions used in them were used by Soviet engineers in domestic military equipment. A significant role in the development of Soviet industry, including defense, was played by purchases in Germany of machine tools and other factory equipment.
      3. Write nonsense, butting every year over the fulfillment of the schedule by the Germans, at the same time made Western democracies think about an alliance with the USSR, this turned out to be a land-lease.
  7. +5
    24 August 2018 06: 33
    They offered an alliance to France and England, they played dynamos, not wanting to burden themselves with an alliance with the USSR, Poland didn’t want a defensive alliance against Germany with the USSR, wanted to take Berlin a week later, Stalin chose the path that was possible, untied his hands in the Baltic States and the Far East, began rearmament.
  8. BAI
    +4
    24 August 2018 09: 25
    The military historian Alexander Bondarenko recalled that at the same time the Soviet Union itself also hardly had a real alternative to the agreements with Germany.

    The USSR was at that moment in talks with England and France. But they just dragged on time. Persons who did not have any authority were put up for negotiations on their part, and on the part of the USSR, senior officials, in particular Voroshilov.
    Moreover, the main point of contradictions in the negotiations: the issue of guaranteeing the security of Latvia, Estonia and Finland by the three powers.
    1. 0
      24 August 2018 11: 38
      Quote: BAI
      The USSR was at that moment in talks with England and France. But they just dragged on time. Persons who did not have any authority were put up for negotiations on their part, and on the part of the USSR, senior officials, in particular Voroshilov.

      Still hoping to reach an agreement with Germany, the British government did not want as a result of negotiations with the USSR “to be drawn into any definite obligation that could tie our hands under any circumstances. Therefore, with regard to a military agreement, one should strive to limit oneself to the more general formulations as possible. ” It is no coincidence that the French delegation had the authority only to negotiate, and the British delegation had no written authority at all.
      © Meltyuhov
      Moreover, the
      at the end of July, England informed Germany that negotiations with other countries “are only a reserve means for genuine reconciliation with Germany and that these ties will disappear as soon as the only important and worthy goal is reached — an agreement with Germany”
  9. +11
    24 August 2018 10: 51
    The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is a normal agreement between two powerful players on the political map of the time. And, of course, this is a victory for Soviet diplomacy, since this treaty brought the USSR significant territories. "Intelligent snot" about his "immorality", etc. do not matter - any policy at all times is immoral in nature. You can mean you should. There is an opportunity to bend someone - it is a crime not to use it. It is possible to pick up what is bad - take it. If some state (in the case of the Baltic states, I prefer the term "non-state") is unable to defend its independence, then it is not worthy of this independence. Whatever the modern Baltic mongrels squeal there, you always have to pay for freedom - with sweat and blood, there is no other currency. Finland, for example, was able to repulse the USSR, forced herself to be respected, paid its price. And the freedom that is received for free, for which it is not paid for, will immediately be sold, and cheaply, which happens all the time. You don't have to go far for examples.
    So "I don't feel sorry for anyone" (c) Cord.
    The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was beneficial to the USSR, because it allowed the borders to be moved to the west, thanks to it the territory and population of the country increased, and Leningrad became inaccessible to Finnish guns. On the eve of the inevitable war, the USSR became stronger. The rest is lyrics and double standards.
    1. +4
      24 August 2018 12: 11
      Everything is written in the case. Politics is generally a pragmatic thing.
      The only pity is that the USSR was unable to fully realize the advantage of the "pre-field" that appeared thanks to the efforts of the diplomats. It was in these border territories that a significant number of troops and equipment were concentrated. Although, in my opinion, it was worth the opposite, the main defense line and military formations were concentrated along the old borders of 1939. Bring to mind the "Stalin line". To leave in Eastern Poland only border guards and DRGs, who at the beginning of the conflict would have mined railway tracks, bridges, disabled the runways of airfields, and slowed down the enemy's advance. In any case, the surprise factor would have been lost, the use of tactical aviation would be difficult due to the lack of suitable airfields, the "blitzkrieg" would be thwarted. Given the low level of experience of the lower and middle-level officers in the Red Army, the only way to avoid catastrophic losses in territories and in people is to impose the old methods of waging war on the enemy, translating it into positional battles. If that worked, the battlegrounds would be Western and Central Ukraine, Eastern Poland and the Baltics.
      1. +5
        24 August 2018 12: 37
        Quote: Fedor Egoist
        The only pity is that the USSR was unable to fully realize the advantage of the "pre-field" that appeared thanks to the efforts of the diplomats.

        We are now easy to talk. At that time, only the Germans had a vague idea of ​​how the upcoming war would be fought - the rest lived on representations twenty years ago. The Wehrmacht was, of course, the best army on the planet, far ahead of everyone else in terms of military-theoretical thought, in terms of organization and management, and in terms of technical equipment and training of personnel. The power of his attacks invariably turned out to be a complete surprise for absolutely everyone and Stalin, unfortunately, was no exception.
        Yes, and the plan to give predpole, then to win it back - for such at that time, and you could lose your head.
        1. +1
          24 August 2018 12: 45
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          The power of his blows invariably turned out to be a complete surprise for absolutely everyone and Stalin, unfortunately, was no exception.

          Unfortunately, no conclusions were drawn either after the Polish campaign of 1939 or after the French campaign of 1940. After all, it is clear that if the method works, then it will be used over and over again. And the tactics of the "blitzkrieg" in 1941, after two successful campaigns, became a "complete surprise" only for those who had slept through all the previous years and for those who were going to "throw hats on the enemy" on its territory with little blood.
          The best way to turn the situation to your advantage is to force the opponent to play according to your own rules, and not try to play according to him. And the opportunity was, and time (almost two years). But:
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          for this at that time you could lose your head

          But this factor probably outweighed the rest, alas.
          1. +2
            24 August 2018 14: 57
            Quote: Fedor Egoist
            Unfortunately, no conclusions were drawn either after the Polish campaign of 1939, or after the French campaign of 1940. After all, it is clear that if the method works, then it will be used again and again.

            The conclusions were just made. For example, according to the experience of the Polish campaign, it was believed that the beginning of hostilities would be preceded by a diplomatic "prelude" - a "threatened period". During which it will be possible to conduct mobilization and concentration.
            And the study of the immediate operational and tactical experience of the French campaign was extremely complicated by the lack of reliable information about it. The leadership of the People’s Commissariat of Defense was forced to rebuild the Red Army, based not on the real experience of the battles in France, but on the basis of the intelligence data about them. And intelligence reported the breakthrough of the Maginot Line with the help of heavy German tanks with 105-mm guns, about the heavy panzerwaffe tank divisions, about thousands of parachute assault forces behind the French army, about the same thousands of detachments of German motorcyclists, etc., etc.
            If you know all this information, then the history of the creation of the same mechanized corps becomes much more understandable.
        2. +1
          25 August 2018 07: 04
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          The Wehrmacht was, of course, the best army on the planet, far ahead of everyone else in terms of military-theoretical thought, and in terms of organization and management, and in terms of technical equipment and training of personnel.

          The Wehrmacht was not the best army on the planet.
          Neither in military-theoretical, nor in terms of organization and management, and even more so especially in terms of technical equipment and personnel training, did not outstrip the Red Army. The Red Army was ahead of the Wehrmacht in all types of weapons, both in quantity and quality. In addition to the "frame" reconnaissance aircraft, there was no such reconnaissance aircraft in the Red Army.
          And the Wehrmacht generals knew and understood this perfectly, but all their hope was only for the help of the West and only for the help of traitors, including the traitor generals of the Red Army, i.e. fifth column in the USSR.
          The Reich received help from the West in full both with finances and an increase in draft potential at the expense of the Sudetenland, the Rhineland, Austria, to replenish the German army with people, and military factories of the military-industrial complex at the expense of Czechoslovakia, France, Belgium to supply the German army with weapons and food sources, and labor resources from "supposedly" conquered countries of Europe. This is all the help of the West.
          The fifth column of the USSR also provided substantial support, especially in the 41st and 42nd years.
          But it was not enough.
          Stalin IV, mass courage, mass heroism, self-sacrifice of soldiers and commanders of the junior and middle ranks of the Red Army, popular support, all Reich plans were broken. At a great price, a lot of blood, a lot of work, then, but still broke.
          1. +1
            25 August 2018 12: 01
            Quote: Ivan Tartugay
            Neither in military theory, nor in terms of organization and management, much less especially in terms of technical equipment and training of personnel, did he go ahead of the Red Army.

            So, we live in different realities, unfortunately. wassat
            1. 0
              25 August 2018 17: 50
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              we live in different realities, unfortunately wassat .

              Realities are different, i.e. for each there is no one. Reality alone at all wassat
          2. +1
            27 August 2018 11: 54
            Quote: Ivan Tartugay
            Neither in military theory, nor in terms of organization and management, much less especially in terms of technical equipment and training of personnel, did he go ahead of the Red Army.

            Mwa ha ha ...
            As a result of all these measures, the operational training of senior command personnel has grown significantly and is assessed mediocre.
            ...
            "Conclusion: the units and formations of the district, fulfilling your requirement for the coordination of companies and battalions, are quite ready for solving simple combat missions."
            ...
            “The preparation of mortar units and subunits is mediocre, with the exception of 24 ombi, the preparation of which is poor. The preparation of 45 and 76 regimental artillery is mediocre.
            ...
            The conducted artillery firing and viewing exercises showed that the division’s artillery of the District was prepared to perform combat missions in the main types of combat mediocre.
            ...
            The training of ARGK regiments is mediocre, with the exception of 311 popes and 318 hap RGKs, whose training is poor.
            © The results of the combat training of the ZOV troops for the winter period 40/41
            The neighboring KOVO also pleased with the preparation of l / s:
            In parts of 97 SD rifles manufactured in 1940. , which were on hand for no more than 4 months, up to 29% are reduced to a state of rust in the barrel, machine guns "DP" manufactured in 1939 to 14% also have a deterioration of the barrel channels.

            And yes - this is the same 97 SD, which according to the results of 1940 was recognized as the most advanced in the Red Army:
            The division headquarters was rated as the most advanced in the Red Army and was awarded the challenge prize of the General Staff. For the organization of military and political training and troop training, the division commander, Major General I. Sherstyuk, was awarded the Order of the Red Banner.


            In the tank forces Hell and the Middle East State. smile I’m just wondering - what would Heinz do if he had at his disposal personnel who would have 2/3 of the rank-and-file would have only primary education or did not have it at all? Ah, yes, non-commissioners should have trained this l / s, 1/3 of which would be the same.
            1. +1
              28 August 2018 12: 31
              Quote: Alexey RA
              And yes - this is the same 97 SD, which in 1940 was recognized as the most advanced in the Red Army

              The attitude of General Sherstyuk to the proper maintenance and servicing of weapons in the troops entrusted to him, in particular rifles and machine guns in 97 SD, is a subjective factor.
              Sherstyuk was in very good relations with the commander of the KOVO Hero of the Soviet Union, Army General Zhukov. After the work of the commission in 97 SD, the conclusions of which you are writing about, Sherstyuk was demoted a little from the division commander to the commandant of the UR, but not for long, 2-3 months, and then returned to the position of divisional commander, only 45 SD.
              The rifle 7,62mm arr. 1891/30 years, and the machine gun DP, as elements technical equipment Red army were betterthan the rifles and machine guns that the Wehrmacht was equipped with.
              Soviet scientists, designers, engineers, workers did a good job equipping the army of the Red Army with excellent weapons, better weapons of the Wehrmacht, but "up to 29% are reduced to the state of rust traces in the bore "then it’s the fault of the generals.
              1. 0
                28 August 2018 14: 47
                Quote: Ivan Tartugay
                The rifle 7,62mm arr. 1891/30, and the DP machine gun, as elements of the technical equipment of the Red Army, were better than the rifles and machine guns that the Wehrmacht was equipped with.

                Is DP-27 better than MG-34? And the ancestors did not know, requiring the designers to provide the possibility of tape power for the DP.
                Quote: Ivan Tartugay
                Soviet scientists, designers, engineers, workers did a good job and equipped the Red Army army with excellent weapons, better weapons of the Wehrmacht, and the fact that "up to 29% are reduced to the state of rust traces in the barrel bore" is the fault of the generals.

                But what about your initial thesis about the best training for military personnel in the Red Army? wink
                Neither in the military-theoretical, nor in terms of organization and management, much less especially in terms of technical equipment and personnel training not ahead of the Red Army.

                And, by the way, was it really necessary for a comrade general to teach every soldier how to clean his personal weapon? If so, then why do we need a junior and middle command - since the general is responsible for everything? smile
                What about excellent weapons, better Wehrmacht weapons - read the docks.
                In the form presented for testing, the T-34 tank does not meet modern requirements for this class of tanks for the following reasons:
                a) The firepower of the tank cannot be fully used due to the unsuitability of surveillance devices, defects in the installation of weapons and optics, the tightness of the fighting compartment and the inconvenience of using an ammunition depot.
                b) With a sufficient margin of engine power and maximum speed, the dynamic characteristics of the tank are poorly selected, which reduces speed and permeability of the tank.
                c) The tactical use of the tank in isolation from the repair bases is impossible, due to the unreliability of the main components - the main clutch and chassis.
                d) The range and reliability of communication obtained during testing for a tank of this class is insufficient, due to both the characteristics of the walkie-talkie 71 TK-3 and the low quality of its installation in the T-34 tank.

                This is the end of 1940. Test serial T-34. Based on the results of which, in particular, it turned out that the ratio of the time of pure movement and restoration work of the T-34 is 38% and 62%.
                1. +1
                  28 August 2018 19: 55
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  If so, then why do we need a junior and middle command - since the general is responsible for everything?

                  Mwa ha ha ...
                  Distort.
                  You know that the general must organize the work of the command personnel to ensure the proper storage, maintenance, maintenance, in the particular case, of weapons of arms entrusted to him.
                  You also understand that the general does not need to disassemble the rifles with the fighters, show them where and how to clean, how to lubricate, how to use the tool and so on. For this, the general has a middle and junior command staff subordinate to him. But to organize their full-fledged work-service, i.e. to allocate time, premises, provide materials, tools, manuals, visual aids, etc., then monitor, demand that subordinates fulfill their duties, and this is already the prerogative of the general.
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  Is DP-27 better than MG-34? And the ancestors did not know, requiring the designers to provide the possibility of tape power for the DP.

                  It was not the ancestors, the soldiers, the commanders of the junior and middle management, but again the generals who demanded that they provide tape food for the PD.
                  However, the generals did not go on the attack with a light machine gun, but the designers met the requirements of the generals. The light machine gun really became a bit heavier, but lighter than the MG, and the drooping tape, like the German MG, made it very difficult to rush into battle conditions. Therefore, the ancestors, the soldiers of the Red Army, who directly fought with the modernized light machine gun, did not feel enthusiasm for him. But the Germans used the captured Soviet DP.
                  You know that the MG-34 is a universal machine gun, it’s manual, it’s also an easel.
                  For the manual MG-34 is heavy and uncomfortable, but as an easel weak.
                  So the Soviet DP as a light machine gun is better than the MG, and the machine guns of the 7,62 mm Maxim system of 1910/30 and the SG-43 are better than the German MG on the machine, with a shield.
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  This is the end of 1940. Serial T-34 Test

                  The war showed that the Soviet medium tank and the T-34-76, and especially the T-34-85, are better than any German Panzerwaffe medium tank.
  10. +4
    24 August 2018 12: 47
    Poland should be silent at all, because who else but the brave Poles helped the Germans to tear Czechoslovakia by joining a couple of regions? The Czechs had an agreement on mutual assistance, but the Poles were so afraid of the USSR that they banned the movement of troops on their territory. Who knows, maybe the Czechs then stopped Hitler with our help? What should be stubborn if you are constantly thrown by the same ones, and you blame the Russians with a squeal and screaming.
  11. Cat
    +3
    24 August 2018 15: 49
    Quote: Fedor Egoist
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    The power of his blows invariably turned out to be a complete surprise for absolutely everyone and Stalin, unfortunately, was no exception.

    Unfortunately, no conclusions were drawn either after the Polish campaign of 1939 or after the French campaign of 1940. After all, it is clear that if the method works, then it will be used over and over again. And the tactics of the "blitzkrieg" in 1941, after two successful campaigns, became a "complete surprise" only for those who had slept through all the previous years and for those who were going to "throw hats on the enemy" on its territory with little blood.
    The best way to turn the situation to your advantage is to force the opponent to play according to your own rules, and not try to play according to him. And the opportunity was, and time (almost two years). But:
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    for this at that time you could lose your head

    But this factor probably outweighed the rest, alas.

    You are not right. There were conclusions. Let it be skewed, but the mobilization plans took into account the possible tactics and strategy of strikes by the German troops. By the way, our mobilization plans assumed that we would restrain the onslaught and respond to the enemy with strikes from mechanized corps. Alas, it did not work out.
    Nezrya Napoleon said that any plan for a military company exists only before it begins. The victorious, victorious German army, mobilized for two years now and invaded by allies and satellites, invaded the USSR. And here it is necessary to honestly admit that the plans of the Wehrmacht collapsed. Having met the understaffed, non-mobilized Red Army, the Germans chronically began to disrupt the deadlines. Where for an hour, where for a day, where for a week, but the vaunted German car began to slip. And instead of the October parade on the Red Stripes, complaints flowed to Berlin about the wrong tanks, pilots, weather, and most importantly, soldiers and commanders!
    We need numbers, I suggest just comparing how much Poland (about a month), France (a little less than three weeks), Norway (ten days), Denmark (one day) resisted? The Soviet Union won 4 years!
    Let's compare the losses! In just three months, fascist Germany lost more soldiers than in two years of the war!
    You can continue further ......
    Today, after three-quarters of a century, you can indiscriminately blame everyone and everyone (there is nothing easier to spit from the bell tower, the problem is to add from the bottom to the top).
    So Mikhail (Kh.T.) was right, the "surprise" was for the Soviet leadership, but what a surprise it was for the Germans when they collided with the T-34 and KV, with rams in the sky in Kiev and Moscow, partisans in the forests of Belarus. ...........?
    In principle, when in the autumn 41 Germans surrounded and destroyed the next rifle division with the number 500, they should have thought that something was going wrong!
    Sincerely, Kitty!
    1. +2
      24 August 2018 17: 26
      Quote: Kotischa
      By the way, our mobilization plans assumed that we would restrain the onslaught and respond to the enemy with strikes from mechanized corps.

      These are cover plans. Infantry with ipltars with stubborn defense slows down the enemy’s mechanized formations and identifies the directions of the main attacks, while the mechanized corps cuts and pushes the enemy’s motorized units with blows from the flanks.
      Quote: Kotischa
      Alas, it did not work out.

      Duc .. failure with military and air reconnaissance + unnecessary initiative of the commanders. Intelligence does not see tanks where they are, but sees where they are not - and the 6th mechanized corps, instead of the flank and rear of the German tank group, is fighting to defend the German infantry divisions. The front commander cancels the newly issued order of the National High Command, the army commander cancels the order of the front commander - and the mechanized corps wind hundreds of kilometers between the deployment area, the concentration area, the army to which they are subordinated - and the new concentration area. At the same time, losing even half the materiel before the battle.
    2. 0
      26 August 2018 19: 45
      And there were unexpected people with tanks like Tank - NI (“To Fright”), which before the war worked as caterpillar tractors.
      1. +1
        30 August 2018 18: 23
        It worked against the Romanians. Not the fact that the Germans would be as timid as the Romanians.
    3. +1
      29 August 2018 22: 53
      Could you specifically list all that "synonym of allies and satellites" who invaded our land on 22.06.1941/22.06.1941/22.06.1941 together with the Germans? For example, I know of only one such ally of the Germans. This is royal Romania. But her attempt to invade the territory of our country at the same time as the Germans on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX was, to put it mildly, not entirely successful. Do you know anyone else who invaded simultaneously with the Germans on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX?
  12. -1
    24 August 2018 17: 44
    the problem is not in this pact, but in the Treaty of Friendship and Border ... request his IVS concluded in vain, why rush in the midst of a world war ... feel
  13. -1
    24 August 2018 17: 55
    Quote: atos_kin
    there was no one to give a loan.

    given immediately, with bread and strategic raw materials ...
    1. +6
      24 August 2018 19: 27
      Quote: ser56
      Quote: atos_kin
      there was no one to give a loan.

      given immediately, with bread and strategic raw materials ...

      Particularly strategic raw materials were bristles and low-grade iron ore lying in the dumps of mines due to the lack of enrichment plants. But some machines bought on credit are still working despite the attempts of "managers" to increase the service life and retirement.
      1. 0
        25 August 2018 16: 35
        probably if the Germans bought it, they needed it ... or do you insist that you supplied only stubble and this ore? bully
        1. 0
          26 August 2018 19: 48
          Of course, the raw materials from the USSR allowed the Germans to smash the Western democracies successfully. But during the “blitzkrieg” Germany quickly consumed all the petroleum products received from the USSR, ate the food they received, and could not achieve victory. On the contrary, the USSR used German machine tools and other factory equipment during all four years of the war, not to mention the German military innovations.
  14. +1
    30 August 2018 18: 21
    Estonians were not going to attack us. But Hitler, in order to attack us from Estonia, would have to go through Lithuania and Latvia. And Estonia itself too. Of course, I agree that a third of the population of these countries greeted Hitler enthusiastically or more or less favorably. But only a third. In the Baltic states of that time there were many nationalists who did not want to be either part of the USSR or part of Germany. These would have resisted the German invasion. There were Jews to whom the Hitler regime did not carry anything good. And finally there were communists and social democrats. Which we could help with weapons and ammunition.
    By the way, the Germans would have had serious problems in Lithuania. Firstly, because unlike Latvia and Estonia, Lithuania does not like Germans historically. And secondly, the broken Polish armies would leave for Lithuania. Yes, they would have been formally interned there, but if the German invasion threatened the Poles, they would have returned their weapons. And 200-300 thousand armed Poles, eager to get even with the Germans - this is serious.
    So, it is not so important how many kilometers from the Estonian border to Leningrad. More important is how and when the Germans would enter the Estonian border with the USSR. If at all would leave.
    1. -1
      30 August 2018 23: 04
      By the way, the Germans would have had serious problems in Lithuania. Firstly, because, unlike Latvia and Estonia, in Lithuania Germans do not like historically

      What sources do you use? Three Lithuanian corps showed no resistance. In the 29m territorial corps of 29 thousand people, almost half went over to the Germans. Only 2000 people remained in the ranks of the Red Army. Less than 10% Have you heard anything about the June uprising? Google it. Sometimes helps
      On June 22, 1941, after Nazi Germany attacked the USSR, Lithuanian independence supporters raised an armed uprising against the Soviet regime.
      In the 29th Lithuanian territorial rifle corps of the Red Army, assassinations of commanders (not Lithuanians) and mass desertion began: of the 16 with units of the Red Army, only 000 retreated. Rebels totaling about 2000 thousand people took control of strategically important objects and entire cities, attacked the retreating units of the Red Army and killed Soviet activists.
      The uprising was led by members of the Lithuanian Front of activists, who on June 23 formed an interim government led by Juozas Ambraziavičius. In Vilnius, an independent Citizens' Committee of Vilnius County and the city (lit. Vilniaus miesto ir srities piliečių komitetas) was formed, headed by the professor of law of Vilnius University Stasis акakevičius (lit. Stasys Žakevičius) [3].
      During the uprising, LFA members and sympathizers killed not only Soviet activists, but those suspected of sympathy for the Soviet regime, also carried out large Jewish pogroms. Lithuanian nationalists played a significant role in the genocide of Lithuanian Jews.
      Many Lithuanians welcomed the Germans as liberators from the Soviet regime, counting on the restoration of independence. However, Germany did not at all plan to grant Lithuania not only independence, but even some kind of autonomy. After the Wehrmacht occupied the entire territory of Lithuania, the occupying authorities of Lithuania were formed within the framework of the Ostland Reich Commissariat. The Provisional Government was dissolved on August 5, 1941, and all regulations issued by it were canceled.

      I am sorry for the time spent on this useless discussion. You obviously do not own the material.
      1. +1
        31 August 2018 10: 02
        Hard case. Multiplied by excessive conceit. Sorry, but you are making a big mistake, trying to try to prove in the real situation of 1941 that it would be exactly the same in 1941 in a different situation.
        Since you have the flag of Azerbaijan on your avatar, I’ll try to show your mistake by the example of you and your neighbors.
        Just imagine that after the collapse of the USSR, all three Transcaucasian republics dispersed peacefully. Although there is some tension between you, especially between Azerbaijan and Great Armenia, there is still no war. And Iran wants to swallow Azerbaijan, which he calls "North Azerbaijan".
        Now let’s imagine that before Iran realized its plans, Great Armenia, taking advantage of the presence in Armenia of an Armenian population loyal to Great Armenia, annexed Azerbaijan to Great Armenia. And I began to establish your own rules for you. Now follow the thought. And after some time, Iran, through the territory of the Azerbaijani region of Greater Armenia, attacked Greater Armenia. Question. How will the Azerbaijani population and the military units of the army of Great Armenia composed of Azerbaijanis behave in this situation? But only if you say that the Azerbaijani population and the Azerbaijani parts of Greater Armenia will unanimously oppose the advancing forces of Iran, then neither I nor anyone else will believe you. For in this situation, you will shoot at the Armenians, and the Azerbaijani units of the army of Great Armenia will surrender to the Iranian army without a fight or go to the side of Iran. Just as a significant part of the Lithuanian divisions did in 1941, sided with Germany.
        Now imagine that no one joined anyone, but Iran attacked Great Armenia, defeated and captured it. At the same time, 200-300 thousand Armenian soldiers and officers and generals managed to move to the territory of Azerbaijan, where they were interned. And a year later, Iran is attacking Azerbaijan. What is the population of Azerbaijan and the Azerbaijani army doing? I believe that both the people and the army with all determination are rebuffing the invaders. Moreover, that part of the former army of Great Armenia, which took refuge after the defeat of Great Armenia by Iran on the territory of Azerbaijan, is fighting alongside you.
        Probably so, huh?
        Try to understand that in different situations, the behavior of people and states is also different. And for some reason you stubbornly do not want to understand this. It’s sad.
        1. -1
          31 August 2018 10: 13
          You are obviously keen on fantastic constructions and alternative history. The fact is simple. You wrote that the Germans would have started problems in Lithuania. In REALITY, the Red Army had problems. You simply accept the fact that you are misinterpreting those events. And you take your thoughts for the actual state of things. Everything was exactly the opposite.
          My "self-importance" is based on facts. Your inventions hang only on your imagination. This is problem....
          1. +1
            31 August 2018 14: 35
            Yes, why are you so stubborn? Why don't you understand basic things? Again. The question is raised in the topic. What was militarily better for the USSR was to annex new western territories or not to annex them. In search of truth, two options must be considered. The first is the one that happened in 1941. And the other, which could have happened in 1941, if they had remained within their former borders. It goes without saying that in order to consider the second option we need to MODEL a possible situation. That is, to make, as you put it, a fantastic construction. Otherwise, nothing. What then to compare?
            You wrote that in reality in Lithuania the problems of the Red Army began. Exactly !!!! And I'm talking about the same thing. Because in 1940 we joined this same Lithuania to us. Now consider the question: who would have started problems in Lithuania if Lithuania had remained independent? The Red Army? Not!!!! Since the Red Army in Lithuania there. So all the proletarian-bourgeois anger of the Lithuanians would have fallen on the invaders of the Germans. The Lithuanians would help the interned Poles. And 99% for the fact that Lithuania would officially turn to the USSR for military assistance. Since Polish experience has shown that counting on England’s help is futile.
            You need to honestly and correctly compare the two options. And not yell "why are you fond of fantastic constructions here ?? *?". That is why I am carried away that I need to compare reality with a failed, but POSSIBLE scenario.
            The Kursk Bulge is the best proof of my innocence. First, we sit in tight defense and do not protrude. We are waiting for the blow of the Germans. We reflect the blow. And only when the Germans ran out of steam, lost their offensive impulse, we bring down the blow of our fresh forces on the enemy. Otherwise, the Germans would then be victorious.
            1. -1
              31 August 2018 15: 40
              Well, you and stubborn ....
              On the Kursk Bulge, we could not contain the blow of the Germans even while sitting in prepared positions. On the southern front, the Germans broke all three defensive positions. On the northern front, Rokossovsky was preparing for battle in the encirclement. You still don’t understand why Model and Manstein canceled the operation? Manstein still bent a little to scoop up Soviet reserves. But the Model stopped immediately.
              About joining. The topic of the article is a little different. Was this an invitation to the aggressor? Do you know that the Germans NEVER had problems with the Lithuanians? Do you know what happened in March 1939? The Lithuanian government conferred as much as 5 hours and surrendered without firing a shot.
              The signing of the Covenant had a completely different background. But for this it is necessary to begin with the First World War, with negotiations in August with England and France. Have you ever read Churchill? The pact gave the USSR good prospects. The absence of the Pact meant war (i.e., a repetition of World War I). Do you know that Goering was expected in London on August 23? The plane was ready to take off.
              For God's sake, remain unconvinced .. Everything is clear to me here as God's day.
              1. 0
                1 September 2018 16: 24
                I do not participate in the discussion of the moral question, was the pact an invitation or was not. I am participating in the discussion of the question of what was better for us: to receive territory or not to receive it. Specifically opposing "Krasnodar" and "gvetsy", who assert that if we had not annexed these territories, we would not have defended Moscow and Leningrad. I show that it could have been the other way around. If the Red Army had met the Germans in the URs, which we had been building for 20 years, and in the period from September 1939 to June 1941 had managed to strengthen them, then most likely we would have been able to stop the Germans at the border.
                And you butted with your ".... do you know how many kilometers from the border with Estonia to Leningrad?" To which I replied that it was still necessary to reach Estonia. In this case, pass through both Latvia and Lithuania and Estonia itself. Lithuania is the old enemy of the Germans. Suffice it to recall the Battle of Grunewald. But besides her, there were also dozens of battles between the Lithuanians and the Germans. Of course, not so large-scale, but nonetheless.
                If you are exhaustive, you should have noticed that I called our defense on the Kursk Bulge just a pale likeness of the Stalin Line. I am aware that the Allies landed in Italy only on time.
                I do not know that on August 23, 1939, Goering was expected in London. I believe that you were not in London on August 23 of that year either.
              2. 0
                1 September 2018 18: 37
                I know what happened in March 1939. On March 20, Ribbentrop put forward an oral ultimatum to convey Klaipeda Region (Memelland) to Germany. On March 22, 1939, Lithuania accepted the ultimatum. I have no idea how long the Lithuanian government met on this issue. Here at least sit, at least do not sit - no options. Before my eyes an example of Czechoslovakia. England and France washed their hands again. Italy supports German claims. Poland also looks like a wolf, looking for a bite too (this time it broke off, didn’t bite anything). And the population of Klaipeda region gravitates towards Germany. In addition, they are entirely (except for Jews, of course) - Protestants. And the Lithuanians themselves are Catholics.
                But if you want to say that as a result of this anschluss of the Klaipeda region in Lithuania the pro-German sentiment has strengthened, then you are severely mistaken. And if Germany went to war on Lithuania itself, then Germany, of course, would have won, but the forest brothers still for a long time gave the Germans exactly the same troubles that they were causing us. And even the worst. Because, apart from nationalists in Lithuania, everyone would have opposed the Germans - Social Democrats, Catholics, Communists. And I would support the latter with weapons and ammunition of the USSR.
        2. -1
          31 August 2018 10: 26
          Just for information. Something about defensive fortifications
          https://warhead.su/2018/05/27/torzhestvo-ahtkommaaht-kak-vzlomali-liniyu-mazhino
          http://militera.lib.ru/research/isaev_av2/02.html
          Honestly, I was always tempted to seat the fans of "strategic defense" at the table, put in front of them a packet of leaflets with a stamp in the upper left corner of the "People’s Commissar of Defense of the USSR", give a pen, an ink-bottle, and offer to depict my own version of the plan of the first operation of the Red Army.
          In the ideologically sustained key of non-resistance to evil with violence, with elements of the “quick drape” technique of the “strategic defense” school. However, it is unlikely that the outcome will be something fundamentally different from the anti-tank ditches, minefields and other means of tactical combat hacked by Vladimir Bogdanovich, projected onto a strategic level.
          My school of military-historical obscurantism, diligently smoking incense "strategic defense", did not and does not cause any warm feelings in me. This is a defeatist concept, which is rightly called the "destiny of the doomed."

          http://militera.lib.ru/research/isaev_av_zhukov/03.html
  15. +1
    30 August 2018 21: 14
    Yes, Kiev UR as a result had to be left. For bypassed. But how deep had to get around. Well, here Zhukov’s ambition played into the hands of the enemy. He preferred to squeeze the Germans out of the Yelninsky ledge, as he wanted to show and prove to Stalin that only he, Zhukov, was able to advance when everyone retreated. But if the troops of Comrade. If Zhukov would have been hit from the north by a German tank group that also bypassed Kiev from the north, then the Germans would be in a very difficult position.
    And from the south, the Germans passed through the already mentioned Letichevsky UR. But Kiev UR was lucky. He directly covered Kiev. Before the Germans arrived, the people of Kiev did great excavation there. And Vlasov (the one who later became a traitor), got the opportunity in the rear, far from the Germans, to form the 37th army. And it’s very successful. At 2/3, the army consisted of fresh, not yet broken divisions, but there were also two divisions that managed to fight and were withdrawn to the rear for replenishment. Kiev arsenals and factories allowed to arm the bunkers and provide them with ammunition.
    In general, a situation was simulated in Kiev UR when the Red Army meets the enemy not in an open field, but in a practically full-fledged fortified area.
    And if from the north and from the south it would be the same, then .... then the enemy would not have passed. It would not have happened if the Red Army had met the first blow of the Germans on the Stalin line. Which is fully armed, provided with ammunition, field fortifications between the pillboxes are occupied by full-blooded field rifle divisions. Behind the URs are our airfields from which our aviation operates, behind the URs are our tank and mechanized corps, ready to strike after the reflection of the first attacking shaft of the Germans.
  16. -1
    30 August 2018 22: 53
    Alex1117,
    It does not detract at all. The Germans broke through the Maginot line just as they captured Eben Emael. And no field troops will save. Field troops well covered Liege in the First World War. The Germans took it.
    No Ury attack by a prepared enemy will withstand. You write about "a couple of armies". Are you laughing? Where do you find this pair of armies? Do you have any idea about the country's defense plan? It was according to your training manual (a pale retelling of Suvorov) that the Soviet troops acted. The first echelon to cover the border of 57 divisions. So about Stalin's hope for a new line of URs is a myth. The covering armies were supposed to detain the Germans for 2 weeks. This is the time to mobolize the entire Red Army. The Second Strategic Echelon is almost 300-400 km from the border. This is along the Dnieper. So he had to hold on to the old Ur. Did you know that in March 1941 a decision was made to build the third Urov line? Under Moscow. They were supposed to have the reserve armies. This is the Third Strategic Echelon. Just those very "couple of armies" in reserve (in real life, it seems three armies). Find a document on the Internet
    "Diagram of fortified areas of the third line along the line: Ostashkov, Rzhev, Vyazma, Spas-Demensk"
    Dated May 1941.
    Your fantasies about a counterattack from the north to Kiev will be left as fantasies without comment. There are Pripyat swamps. The 5th army of Potapov was defending there (it was DEFENSE). Once upon a time, a German general wrote a book
    http://militera.lib.ru/science/philippj_a/index.html
    I can only quote the opinions of experts "While amateurs draw arrows on maps, experts are studying material and technical supply"
    And the opinion of Moltke Sr. 50 years before the war "Don't build fortresses - build railways."
    The conclusion is that no fortified areas will stop the invasion. By the way, the Battle of Kursk confirmed this. You just ask why Model and Manstein stopped the attack? There was a reason .... And this is not a defensive structure.
    1. +1
      31 August 2018 16: 01
      You would at least look at the map, eh? The Germans turned south towards Kiev from Gomel and Starodub. And they walked a little east of Chernigov and a little west of Konotop. What "swamps" prevented Zhukov from hitting after the Germans from the north? You have an interesting logic - for some reason, the swamps were not prevented from striking the Germans from the north, bypassing Kiev, but the swamps would definitely prevent Zhukov from stabbing the Germans who turned to the south :))
      Again. There was no expansion of the territory - there would be no "new line of URs"? Are you even capable of simulating events?
      1. 0
        31 August 2018 16: 35
        I looked at the map. Turn south after the Pripyat swamps. German generals wrote about this during planning. (Although this is already a gag. According to the plan, they should have turned north).
        Now simulate what Zhukov should have hit in the rear of Guderian? By what forces? Describe the outfit of forces, transport capabilities, troop density. Eremenko for some reason did not hold back, although he promised. And Stalin did not remove him from his post for this. On the contrary, he called him "General of Defense". And why did you miss the second claw of the Kiev boiler? Kleist threw a tank group over 200 km and crossed the Dnieper on the move, reached the Kremenchug bridgehead and .... the end of the South-Western Front. Movable joints will ALWAYS find a weak point.
        There would be no new line of URs, the Germans would take Minsk on the first day, the old Urs would not keep them.
        Are you so sure that if there hadn’t been advances to a new border, would the old URs have kept the Germans? There are no such examples and history of the Second World War.
        1. 0
          2 September 2018 21: 46
          Well, thank God, even with the swamps sorted out. There is nothing to do with swamps.
          Zhukov could strike Guderian from the north by the troops with which he squeezed the Germans from the Yelninsky bridgehead. The devil with her, with Yelnya, Zhukov leaves part of the troops on the defensive, and the mobile units are sent to catch Guderian from the north. In this case, the loser Eremenko has a chance to fulfill his promise to the Supreme.
          Again. Mobile units will always find a place in weak defense. You will not understand the difference between the fortifications occupied by full-time garrisons, provided with full-time weapons and ammunition, and the field fortifications between the bunkers are occupied by full-blooded, also well-armed and equipped with ammunition field troops. And between the fortifications occupied yesterday by the drafted, poorly armed, without stockpile of ammunition, and even in half strength, and between the concrete pillboxes there are broken, retreating troops, also of incomplete composition, with almost no ammunition for heavy weapons. The second option is the URs of the Stalin line in reality. And the first option is a possible option if the Germans had to start the war not the way they started, but at the very beginning they would have to gnaw at the Stalin Line, equipped with full-blooded, well-armed and well-equipped ammunition, pillbox garrisons, where field fortifications are also occupied by full-blooded ones, well-armed and equipped with ammunition field armies.
          The whole problem is that in June-early July, our mechanized corps were not behind the line of powerful fortifications, but in the fields and forests, where they moved back and forth, wasting fuel, motor resources, losing equipment not in battles, but on meaningless marches.
          Even in general, the random defense of the Brest Fortress showed what our troops are capable of, if they are in the fortress. Giving us Western Belarus and Western Ukraine, Hitler lured us from the fortifications in fact in a pure field. Yes, we wanted to equip the Molotov Line. And it would be great happiness if we really had time to complete it, equip it with weapons, provide ammunition, plant trained garrisons there, and occupy field fortifications with full-blooded armies. But we did not have time. I have a feeling that Hitler closely followed the progress of the construction of the Molotov Line. In which we swelled huge funds (billions of dollars in modern terms). With these funds, we could overhaul the Stalin Line. But we did not repair the Stalin line either, and did not manage to finish the Molotov line. Hitler struck literally on the eve of the end of work on the Molotov line. Perhaps he understood that this was his only chance of success.
          Therefore, everything in June-July 1941 and everything that happened happened. The Germans occupied the Molotov line, since it was not yet ready, not armed, and not occupied by troops. And our troops withdrew to our old URs already very battered, and the garrisons in the URs were only a faint similarity to what garrisons they should have been in.
          Lucky Kiev ur. The proximity of the huge city made it possible to bring the Kiev UR to a more or less relative order, equip it, provide ammunition and a garrison. And the 37th Army was composed mainly of full-fledged personnel divisions deployed from the eastern military districts. Everything is elementary. In fact. And do not invent anything.
  17. +2
    31 August 2018 14: 00
    Quote: Bakht
    Indeed, the incomparably more powerful army of France did not dare to oppose Germany.

    The French simply did not want to die for Poland at all. And, most likely, they still did not want to oppose Germany, as they were afraid to frighten the Germans in their advance to the East. Where, as the French top hoped, the Germans clashed with the Soviets. And when it became clear that they would not clash, it was too late to speak. Poland ceased to exist.
    1. 0
      31 August 2018 15: 44
      Barbara Takman "The First Blitzkrieg. The August Cannons". Having a treaty with the Russian Empire, France withdrew troops 10 km from the border so as not to start a war. Let Russia and Germany fight among themselves. Given Foch's uncontrollable nature, a special officer was sent to his corps with a categorical order not to shoot. In the 30s, books and memoirs were published on both sides. And the Germans said that if France had not come forward, then the German railways within 2 weeks could transfer 3 of the five armies to the east. Do you think Stalin did not know this in 1939?
      And in England they published poems in the newspapers "Why should I go into battle with you, since this battle is not mine at all"
      1. 0
        2 September 2018 22: 10
        I see you strongly trust the memoirs of the losers. But these memoirs always have only one goal. Show that the defeat was a matter of chance, and the author of the memoir is not at all to blame.
        What does it mean - they took them 10 kilometers from the border. A company can be withdrawn 10 kilometers from the border, since the company can be located near the border. But 10 kilometers from the border can take the regiment. Although the headquarters of the regiment is already located 3-5 kilometers from the border. And the division headquarters and divisional artillery are already 10 kilometers from the border. And the headquarters of the corps and corps artillery is already more than 10 kilometers from the border.
        So who did the French take 10 kilometers? And more. The French really just did not want the Germans to bring down their artillery fire from abroad on their troops located near the border.
        And it is time to stop being naive and believe in fairy tales that the Germans could calmly transfer corps against Russia from the borders of France in 1914. The Germans had the entire plan of the First World War was built on the fact that they must defeat France before Russia is fully mobilized. Attacking Russia for Germany was simply stupid. In the worst case, we would retreat to Moscow and St. Petersburg. But this will not give a gain in the German war. But on the border of France with Germany there will be a fully mobilized French army, as well as the English. Well, why should Germany drive itself into this trap?
        Oh yes, the memoirs are :)))))
  18. +1
    31 August 2018 15: 29
    yehat, he could be the last frontier of German advancement. If the URs, meeting with the Kiev UR, would fulfill their mission. And if GK Zhukov stepped over his grudge against Stalin, who removed him from the post of Chief of the General Staff, and would have looked a little wider. And instead of pushing the Germans out of the Yelninsky ledge, he would have left a barrier in front of Yelnya, and would have fallen with all his might on the German group bypassing Kiev from the north. Since Zhukov’s troops simply hung (even further north) over the German group that bypassed Kiev from the north. But Zhukov preferred to pretend that he sees and hears nothing but the Yelninsky ledge.
  19. 0
    28 September 2018 17: 22
    Quote: RUSS
    The occupation was and it is a fact, its results are not unambiguous, each side perceives it differently.

    The fact was the absence of signs of occupation. For example, the national government, the courts, the budget in each republic and the presence of its own armed units, which was completely impossible during the occupation.

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