Su-57 and "Armata" against the economy and expediency

In recent years, the Russian defense industry has developed several fundamentally new types of military equipment for the ground forces and aerospace forces. They pass the necessary tests and should soon appear in the army. However, not so long ago it became known that there is an alternative opinion in the higher echelons of power. A senior manager openly stated that there was no point in mass purchases of new equipment.

Reason for disputes

The reason for new disputes around promising samples appeared in early July. Vice Prime Minister Yury Borisov, in charge of the military-industrial complex, told the press about current work in the framework of promising projects. Among other things, he touched on the theme of the fifth-generation fighter Su-57. As it turned out, the leadership of the defense industry has very specific views.

Fighter Su-57 in flight. Photo KLA / uacrussia.ru

According to Y. Borisov, tests of the Su-57 are in accordance with the plan. This year, it is planned to sign a contract for two aircraft of the experimental batch, and the current state arms program provides for the purchase of 12 aircraft - two squadrons. At the same time, the official does not yet see the point in increasing production volumes aviation techniques.

The Vice Prime Minister noted that the Su-57 showed itself well in trials and in Syria. Technical specifications and combat capabilities received confirmation. However, it is not yet necessary to force the work on its mass production. Russia already has a Su-35C fighter of the 4 ++ generation, which is considered one of the best in the world. If available, the accelerated mass construction of newer Su-57 does not make sense.

However, Yu. Borisov did not call for the complete rejection of the fifth generation car. It should be a kind of "trump card" that can be "played" in appropriate circumstances. When the fighters of previous generations begin to lag behind their foreign counterparts, the time comes for the Su-57. In such circumstances, this aircraft will again provide superiority over the likely adversary.

Later similar statements were made about the prospects of armored combat vehicles. A new interesting, but ambiguous statement was made at the end of July, during a regular meeting on the development of the defense industry. Vice Prime Minister Yury Borisov pointed out that the Russian armed forces are not yet striving to carry out mass purchases of armored vehicles of the Armath family. The reason for this lies in the excessive cost of such machines. To maintain the combat capability of armored forces, the army prefers to carry out modernization of the existing equipment.

Su-35C fighter generation 4 ++. Photo KLA / uacrussia.ru

Yu. Borisov recalled that the basis of the Russian park tanks are machines of the T-72 family undergoing modernization. In addition, this technique is very popular in the international arms market. The Deputy Prime Minister also compared the Russian tank with the leading foreign models and noted its superiority over them. The T-72 is superior to the Abrams, Leopards, and Leclerci in cost, efficiency, and quality.

Similarly, Y. Borisov spoke about other promising platforms. Perspective wheeled armored personnel carrier “Boomerang” is much more expensive than the existing equipment of its class. In this regard, the army has no need for its mass purchase. However, in a different situation — if our production machines were inferior to the technique of a possible enemy — the army would begin to purchase new models.

Due to such decisions it is possible to get serious savings. The newest and expensive samples are offered to be purchased in limited quantities, and in parallel to carry out the modernization of the existing fleet. Yu. Borisov believes that the rational use of the modernization potential of military equipment is an effective solution. And at his expense, it is possible to accomplish the tasks assigned, having a military budget ten times less than that of the NATO countries.

Su-57 during the demonstration flight. Photo of Wikimedia Commons

Clear reaction

The reaction to such statements was not long in coming. And, quite expectedly, this reaction was not positive. They began to criticize the vice-premier from several positions at once, pushing at various aspects of the planned rearmament. In addition, tendentious assessments appeared, casting a shadow not only on individual projects, but also on the entire industry or the army as a whole. However, there were also those who agreed with Y. Borisov in his assessments and appealed to the need to assess the feasibility of procurement.

For obvious reasons, the foreign press reacted quite loudly to these events. Publications appeared with screaming names like “Su-57 turned out to be an expensive and useless toy,” “Putin no longer puts on Armat or Tank Armata was too expensive for Russia, and T-72 is not so old.” Under the last heading, the BBC Russian service not only looked at the current situation and statements of the official from the point of view she needed, but also recalled his attitude to modernization projects in the past.

In general, if one does not pay attention to obviously biased publications and statements, the reaction of the public and specialists was reduced to several basic issues. First of all, people were not satisfied with the fact of the refusal of mass purchases of the latest technology that could dramatically increase the combat capability of the army. This argument took place in disputes on both topics - both in the case of the Su-57, and after the statements about the armored vehicles.

The main tank T-14 on the platform "Armata". Photo NPK "Uralvagonzavod" / uvz.ru

There were also arguments about reputational costs. For years, Russia has been talking about creating future combat vehicles with the highest characteristics, but now refuses their massive purchases. Such a development of events may look very strange, especially if it is focused on it, based on certain prerequisites.

Su-57 and its future

The project to create a fifth-generation fighter PAK FA / T-50 / Su-57 has already moved far enough. In February of this year, it was announced the start of pilot operation. So far, 10 flight prototypes are involved in the checks. Three more were built for various checks on the ground. In the near future, it is planned to build and raise into the air several pre-production machines, after which mass production should begin.

The program goes without any difficulties and significant delays, which can be a reason for restrained optimism. Nevertheless, as follows from the words of Yu. Borisov, the real prospects for the Su-57 are far from some predictions. It turns out that the newest aircraft is too good for today's army, it has redundant capabilities and, oddly enough, it is inexpedient to exceed the actual requirements for a modern fighter.

The leadership of the defense industry studied the current situation in the world and the combat capabilities of air forces of different countries, as a result of which a special opinion emerged about the real prospects of the Su-57. High-ranking officials believe that the current situation allows the implementation of existing plans to continue without reworking the schedule. It is proposed to continue to produce the Su-35С serial fighter aircraft, and in parallel to prepare the production of more advanced Su-57 fighters. Without unnecessary haste.

Upgraded T-72B3. Photo by Vitalykuzmin.net

Of course, such a decision may lead to certain changes in the schedule and a shift in the delivery time of the finished aircraft. On the other hand, the available time can be used to further refine the design and correct the detected deficiencies. As a result, a fully-fledged mass production, which is proposed to be postponed for some time, will be able to go ready fighter, devoid of flaws.

However, this approach does not eliminate all problems. Preparation and launch of mass production is quite a challenge, which takes a lot of time. It is necessary to proceed to its implementation before Su-35С ceases to provide the desired parity with the likely adversary. By the time of these events, our army should already have a "trump card" in its hands in the form of a fifth-generation fighter.

Armored Perspectives

According to published data, promising armored combat vehicles based on modern unified platforms are able to show the most serious advantages over existing equipment. Expected to be a significant increase in firepower, protection and combat effectiveness in general. At the same time, the price is growing - both for a separate car and for the project as a whole. All this must be considered when planning.

Y. Borisov points out that the modernized T-72B3 tank is not inferior in its fighting qualities to foreign competitors. The new model based on the Armata platform surpasses all of them in basic tactical and technical characteristics, but it also turns out to be more expensive. In such a situation, the leadership of the defense complex does not see the point in the imminent deployment of large-scale production of more complex and expensive samples in the same way as in the case of fifth-generation fighters.

Wheel BMP K-17, built on the platform "Boomerang." Photo of Vitalykuzmin, net

It should be noted that in the field of armored vehicles the issue of cost is particularly important. According to reports, the modernization of one T-72 tank on the B3 project costs the military about 150 million rubles. In the past, it was argued that the Armata serial main tank T-14 would cost no more than 250-300 million rubles per unit. In the future, estimates have increased, and a couple of years ago, officials already talked about 400-500 millions. Thus, instead of building one new “Armata”, three T-72 can be repaired and improved at once. Which is better, three T-72B3 or one T-14 is a question without a clear answer.

All the well-known arguments in favor of one or another approach look convincing to some extent, but still do not remove some questions. For example, it is not known whether the Russian industry is ready for the imminent launch of a full-scale production of a completely new technology. Even if the only Russian tank-building plant will be able to produce several dozen promising armored vehicles per year, this will not cover all the needs of the army for new or updated equipment. In addition, we should not forget about the need to complete all cycles of testing and finishing new samples.

What to expect?

The recent remarks of the deputy prime minister responsible for the defense industry made quite a stir. Such a reaction of the public and professionals, in general, was justified. Actual plans involving minor purchases of promising technology are unlikely to quickly and fully realize its potential, and also can not be a reason for pride. However, you can find arguments in favor of this approach.

In the recent past, it was repeatedly noted that the Russian armed forces will be purchasing some samples of new technology, not related to completely new generations. In addition, it was planned to modernize the existing park. And only after that, the units were supposed to proceed with completely new cars belonging to the next generations. Currently, the situation is fully consistent with such plans.

T-14 tanks on parade. Photo of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation / mil.ru

The aerospace forces continue to receive Su-35C fighters of the 4 ++ generation of new construction, and at the same time the modernization of the existing equipment is carried out. In the future, combat aircraft will complement the new serial Su-57. The situation is similar in the armored sphere, with the difference that it decided to focus on the modernization of cash samples. In the future, respectively, they will complement the new "Armaty" and "Boomerangs."

The only real subject of dispute in this situation is the timing and volume of delivery of new equipment. The situation with the timing is quite understandable and even to some extent expected. A rare promising project can be carried out in accordance with the original schedule, not to mention its advance. The number of Su-57, “Armat” and “Boomerangs”, which will be ordered in the near future, depends on rearmament plans, the economic capabilities of the army and some other factors.

In fact, the command of the armed forces and the leadership of the defense industry in the context of promising projects have to solve several basic issues. They must form clear and precise plans, taking into account the need for rearmament, the complexity and cost of such a program, as well as its relevance to current challenges. It should be borne in mind that the situation is constantly changing in one way or another, with the result that plans have to be adjusted.

Fortunately, despite all the limitations, problems and disputes, at the moment we are talking about shifting the dates for launching the mass production of new samples, as well as about a possible reduction in the volume of their production. No one is going to abandon the most important projects, the development of which also spent a lot of time and money. Prospective developments, such as the Su-57 or Armat, will definitely go to the troops in the foreseeable future. And their number (albeit not immediately) will meet all the requirements, wishes and limitations.

On the materials of the sites:
http://ria.ru/
http://tass.ru/
http://vz.ru/
http://bbc.co.uk/
http://inosmi.ru/
https://tvzvezda.ru/
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/

Comments

[Andrey Yuryevich]

before the people were delighted with new planes and tanks, now the pension reform and VAT. mmmdaa .... by the way, instead of the promised 200 rubles since August (a terrible figure!), they added to the pension, working pensioners ... 5 rubles !!! (friends are also 5-10). the lie continues. glory "er".

[betta]

A pensioner works next to me, she was added 214r.

[leonid76]

It seems that the new prices will not be enough ...

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: leonid76

It seems that the new prices will not be enough ...

Enough. I generally buy the left one, for 150, but it is no different from the store one.

[Swag]

in fact, please do not drag pension reform here.

[Sergei1982]

The article blunders, modern to T-72B3M costs 79 mil. R. Https: //bmpd.livejournal.com/1695164.html that is, 5-6 T-72B3M instead of one Armata, well, as the author correctly noted it is not known whether it is ready industry to the series.

[g1washntwn]

These 5-6 72's will be exchanged against 1 "Abrams" in the event of a collision. And the country is still giving birth to tankers. Does the concept of throwing cheap hats remind you of anything from history? The T-72's modernization potential is practically exhausted. Infinitely improve the shovel to go hand-to-hand with it on the enemy? For me, this is clear sabotage and sabotage.

[Per se.]

Quote: g1washntwn

And the country still gives birth to tankers.

Let's, Zhora, try to calmly figure it out. Is it necessary to modernize existing tanks, like the T-72, T-80, and improve the T-90, whose modernization potential is far from being exhausted, especially with new modules such as "Breakthrough 2" and "Breakthrough 3"? It seems that it is necessary, as well as to use stocks of old tanks for alterations in SAU, TOC, BMPT or heavy armored personnel carriers of the BMO-T type. Now, what is "Armata", it is first of all a "platform", which was originally appointed as such, without waiting for the basic model of this "platform" to be fully tested and put into service, will prove itself well, and will be mastered by the industry. On this raw base, they rushed to design, in addition to the T-14 tank, and a heavy infantry fighting vehicle, and other equipment (SEM, armored personnel carriers, it was assumed ACS, BMPT ...), moreover, the task of "unifying" the BMP with the tank posed a number of difficult problems to solve conflicting requirements ... If the prototype of the T-14 was an 195 object (T-95), like a super tank, a reinforcement tank with an 152 mm gun, capable of hitting any target with an enemy’s inaccessible distance of return fire, then the T-14 had to give up a lot. Of course, for the purpose of universality of the "platform" and to reduce the cost of the tank itself. Abandoned the widespread use of titanium (on T-95 the weight of armor with titanium was on the order of 55 tons), of course, with steel, or the weight of the machine would increase, or protection and armament should be eased. Eased the T-14, replaced the heavier 152 mm 2A83 cannon with the lighter mm 125, in effect depriving the tank of the very meaning for which it was created. They also abandoned the auxiliary 30 mm automatic cannon 2A42, which made it possible to save the "main caliber" and could be used for secondary purposes. What they got, a tank with a weight similar to the new T-90, but with larger dimensions, that is more vulnerable. Armament T-14 has no significant superiority with the 125 mm gun before the new T-90, being more expensive and more difficult to manufacture. As for the fetishized "armored capsule", we can say that it made sense only with a 152 mm cannon, which actually took up the entire space of the tower. Otherwise, the fact that all tank crew members are located in the front of the hull, in an isolated capsule, should have allowed a dramatic increase in crew safety by separating it from the ammunition and fuel. At the same time, the design used the old loading system, which did not solve the main problem at all - if a projectile or rocket hit, the tank would still explode. Just next to the remains of the combat vehicle will roll and the armored capsule with the crew. The conclusion, I repeat in what was said earlier, is that it is the tank itself that needs to be refined, and, like a super tank with a 152 mm gun, and not sculpt "platforms" on an expensive and complex base, spraying funds and technical capacity to the detriment of the new tank. By and large, now I’ll get as a T-14 not so much a tank as an expensive and complex ACS with electronics problems in control systems.

[Chertt]

For itself Very convincing. Do not want an article on this occasion to push.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Chertt

For itself Very convincing. Do not want an article on this occasion to push.

Not at all convincing.
Initially, Sergei writes - "If the prototype of the T-14 was object 195 (T-95), as a super tank, a reinforcement tank with a 152 mm gun capable of hitting any target with a single shot from a distance inaccessible to enemy return fire, - and then continues -" As for the fetishized "armored capsule", one can say that it made sense only with a 152 mm gun, "
It turns out so - 152mm. the gun hits the enemy from an inaccessible distance for him and in this case the armored capsule is good and needed (?) If the tank is out of reach for the enemy’s fire, why bother with expensive armored capsule? If the tank is beyond the reach of enemy fire, why bother the tank itself? Then his task - the destruction of the enemy at an unattainable for the last distance - and ACS will cope.
A tank is an offensive weapon and therefore it must be simultaneously: mobile, well defended, have sufficiently powerful weapons that do not reduce its mobility and security.
And if, when designing the T-14, they abandoned 152mm. guns, it’s probably just in order not to reduce its mobility, but an armored capsule, so that the crew, the most expensive thing in the tank, had more chances to survive in close combat.

[cariperpaint]

That's it. Again, what does unattainable mean? 5? 7? Km How much it? Inaccessible to anyone? For enemy tanks? So after all, according to all statistics, most tanks are affected by completely different means. You have 152 mm or 125 a rocket will enter you from a few kilometers and the caliber will not help much. For years now I want to see a good analysis of exactly 152 mm, in which its advantages for modern combat will be clearly laid out on shelves. All the pros and cons. At the same time, with the analysis of precisely modern combat, where tank-friendly targets became larger over the years.

[yehat]

Well, part of the benefits of caliber 152 is obvious - better performance when firing from afar (accuracy, accuracy, drop in armor penetration by armor-piercing shells), anti-personnel ammunition based on HE shells is more effective, good potential for using missiles and shaped-charge shells, armor-piercing characteristics are just more powerful.
Cons - weighting and dimensions, lower rate of fire, lower ammunition, a new caliber and logistics costs.

[cariperpaint]

This is all I understand. I just want to understand exactly in the analysis and precisely the expected battle that will fundamentally change this caliber. Range? But you are still limited by the target detection range. In any other case, this is a self-propelled gun and not a tank)

[yehat]

the main thing is that this caliber will change - a tank can get quite powerful anti-tank weapons - a thicker missile will fit into the barrel, a more powerful sub-caliber and all of NATO’s tactics of arming with heavy tanks will go to pieces, because. the armor stupidly ceases to be effective, and further weighting is already doubtful.
today, the modern 122mm t90 guns, let’s say so, far from guarantee the penetration into the forehead (not at point blank range) of a whole bunch of likely opponents.

[yehat]

someone stupidly put down all my comments minuses, regardless of the content.
well done ...

[Per se.]

Quote: cariperpaint

How much it? Inaccessible to whom? For enemy tanks?

A table for comparing the capabilities of 120-125-152 mm (Reinmetall (Leopard, Abrams), 2A82-1M (T-14), 2A83 (T-95 (object 195)).
TTH Rheinmetall L / 55, 2А82 − 1М and 2А83
Caliber, mm: 120 - 125 - 152
Barrel length, calibers: 55 - 56 - 52
Barrel length metric, mm: 6250 - 7000 - 7200
Weight, kg: 3200 - 2700 -> 5000
Pressure inside the barrel, atm .: 7000 - n / d - 7700
Muzzle energy, MJ: 12,7 - 15,24 -> 20
The initial velocity of the projectile, m / s: 1700 - n / d - 1980
Effective range, m: 4000 - 4700 - 5100
Armor penetration of BPS, mm: 800 - 1000 - 1100
Permeability of ATGM, mm: 800 - 950 - 1400
Maximum range of ATGM, URS, m: 8000 - 8000 - 20000
Rate of fire, rds / min: 6 − 8 - 12 - 15
Ammunition: 42 - 45 - 40
Automatic loader: no - is - is.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Per se.

Table for comparing the capabilities of 120-125-152 mm

What a nice sign.
55klb stand only on Leo2A6, Abram has 44 klb.
BPS penetration - what projectile, what range?
Armor penetration of ATGM - what kind of ATGM at the Rheinmetal gun? What kind of ATGM is 152 mm?
Rate of fire - where do these numbers come from?

[Per se.]

Quote: Cherry Nine

What a nice sign.

For this alone, I did not want to communicate with you, but I will explain, more for those who gave you advantages. Yes, there is a plate, maybe not entirely correct, since the ATGM for a 120 mm cannon is an Israeli "Lahat". Originally "Lahat" was intended for firing 105-mm M68 tank cannon or 120-mm MG251 (MG253) cannons of Merkava tanks, but can be used on all types of guns of the indicated calibers, including recoilless guns, and tubular launchers located on various types of platforms. For 152 mm ATGMs, for 152 mm caliber, among the new ammunition there are also guided missiles launched through the gun barrel. For comparison, the 152 mm caliber is the Kornet ATGM caliber - in such a caliber, it is possible to provide a significantly higher launch range and armor penetration. If we talk directly about the development of object 195 (T-95) and the 2A83 gun, then here's another "cute plate" for you. For the rest, figure it out for yourself.

Performance characteristics of 152-mm gun 2А83:
• Type of gun - smooth-bore with a chrome-plated barrel;
• Weight - more than 5000 kg;
• Barrel length - 7200 mm;
• The initial speed of the projectile - 1980 m / s;
• Effective shot range:
- shells - 5100 m;
- URS Krasnopol 2K25 - 20 000 m;
- URS Krasnopol ZOF38 - 12 000 m;
• Rate of fire - 10-15 rounds per minute;
• Muzzle energy shot - 20-25 MJ;
• Armor penetration:
- BPS - mm 1024;
- ATGM - 1200 – 1400 m;
• Resource gun barrel - 280 shots;
• Ammunition - 40 shells;
• Automatic loader - 24 rounds.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Per se.

For this alone, you didn’t want to talk

People who publish "maybe not entirely correct" numbers are usually terribly vulnerable and painfully sensitive, what can you do.

Quote: Per se.

since an ATGM for a 120 mm cannon is an Israeli "Lahat"

Which is not and was not in the BC of NATO vehicles, and even from Merkav, NNP, it was unloaded as unnecessary. However, you did well that you reminded him of people who believed that the bourgeoisie did not have anti-tank ATGMs. Thank.

Quote: Per se.

According to the 152 mm ATGM, for the 152 mm caliber, among the new ammunition there are also guided missiles launched through the gun’s barrel

Quote: Per se.

here's another "cute plate"

Krasnopol with Cornet appeared. Clear.
Those your data, which are in 152mm, as I understand it, are theoretically possible in the distant future. Naturally, they can be any. There is nothing to argue with.
More interesting is your handling of real machines.

Quote: Per se.

For the rest, figure it out for yourself.

You accumulated, and I understand?

[Per se.]

Quote: Cherry Nine

You accumulated, and I understand?

It’s your business, who, I wonder, didn’t copy-paste here, if you exclusively work with archives or have direct access to information on the same “Armata”, what happened with object 195, I take off my hat. Only, where and how is this reflected, what have not the same tables laid out for the alternative? Apparently, being a critic is easier. I see no reason to argue any further, thanks for your attention.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Per se.

who, I wonder, didn’t copy-paste here

I don’t show you copy-paste at all. I am trying to understand which part of what you have stated is facts and which part is assumptions. Unfortunately, you do not consider it necessary to clarify this. This explains my somewhat aggressive attitude.

Specifically, there are some doubts that your armor penetration figure for Almaty refers to the real Vacuum-1, and not to some hypothetical projectile that could be created based on the size of the AZ. The rate of Negro Joe also walks twice, depending on how the tests were conducted.

[Per se.]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Not at all convincing.

It is a pity, if not convincing, I will try to explain. In the case of the 152 mm cannon, the armored capsule was rather a necessary measure, since, as already mentioned, a powerful cannon with an automatic loader occupied almost the entire space of the turret. On the T-95, the protection was higher. Finally, the "armored capsule" itself, as a technical solution, is hardly more convenient for the crew than when it is not the crew, but the automatic loader, which is carried into this very "armored capsule". I gave an example on the stern niche, on the "Black Eagle" the crew was located much more comfortably, with three escape hatches for three, and not two, as when using the scheme with a capsule. In addition, the tank itself turned out to be more compact. There are other problems with the armored capsule - "for the effective work of the crew, the most modern technical vision systems and a fire control system are needed - sensors, video cameras, sensors, even a phased array radar like on a 5th generation fighter. This is extremely necessary, since" the old fashioned way "with their own eyes through a triplex or leaning out the hatch, the crew simply have no opportunity to survey and aim. But the problem with electronics in modern Russia is that the hopeless lag from the West has not gone away. As a result, Russia was forced to buy almost all modern electronics in the West. After the introduction of sanctions in 2014, this route was closed, and there is no time, no money, no brains for the advertised import substitution program.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Per se.

As for the fetishized "armored capsule", we can say that it made sense only with a 152 mm gun

8)))
When caliber guns less 152 crew of the tank can be safely recorded in easily renewable consumables?

[Per se.]

Quote: Spade

When caliber guns less 152 crew of the tank can be safely recorded in easily renewable consumables?

As noted Hog in his commentary, a 152 mm cannon was also installed in a regular turret, but it was not a 2A83, but a 152,4 mm LP-83 cannon, which was installed on the T-80BV, then this module was used on the experimental Object 292. It was possible to do without an armored capsule, but if we talk about it, in the form in which it was used, then it was more expedient precisely when the caliber of the gun was increased. If we are only talking about isolating the crew from a possible explosion of ammunition, all the more, while maintaining the caliber of 125 mm, a solution with a stern niche seems more convenient, as was the case with the layout of the Omsk tank "Black Eagle", object 640.
https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2018-08/1534321422_chernyj-orel.gif

[Lopatov]

Quote: Per se.

If we are only talking about isolating the crew from a possible explosion of the ammunition, moreover, while maintaining the caliber of 125 mm, a more convenient solution is the aft niche

Firstly, the feed niche is much less secure, and secondly, it is a huge problem when the electronic surveillance system fails, it will not even work out of the battlefield.

Quote: Per se.

It was possible to do without an armored capsule, but if we talk about it in the form in which it was used, then it was more expedient precisely with an increase in the caliber of the gun.

It has nothing to do. Although 30, at least 125, at least 152.

[Per se.]

Quote: Spade

It has nothing to do. Although 30, at least 125, at least 152.

If a "ton" of ammunition, and it explodes, then no matter what caliber it was intended for. The armored capsule is not a panacea that makes the crew invulnerable, especially when the ammunition is detonated, and with such an automatic loader arrangement as on the T-14. Crew protection is a complex solution, and it is not a fact that an armored capsule will save the crew when an ammunition load is exploded, as well as the fact that a tank without such an armored capsule, due to more comfortable conditions for the crew, more reliable control systems, will not be more protected in the end. There is a mixed placement of the crew in the same volume with an autoloader and ammunition, there is a solution where the crew is separated from the autoloader and ammunition, and there are solutions where an autoloader with ammunition is allocated from the crew and the main volume of the tank. All three decisions exist, what to argue about, I expressed my opinion, as I could reasoned it, nothing more, and I did not proclaim the ultimate truth. If you are an artillery officer, I respect your opinion, but I would also like to hear your understanding on the topic of what to do in Russia with tanks, with what is, with what can be.

[Hog]

BC will not save anything from the explosion, neither with an armored capsule, nor with a feed niche.
This is all done to protect the crew from the FIRE BK.

[Lopatov]

In the presence of armored capsules, i.e. deserted BO is much easier to prevent ignition of BC. What happens much more often than the direct, immediate detonation of one of the shells

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Per se.

, It was possible to do without an armored capsule, but if we talk about it in the form in which it was used, then it was more expedient precisely with an increase in the caliber of the gun.

Here, here I absolutely can not understand anything.
What is armored capsule for?
In my understanding, to save the life of the crew in case of destruction of the tank as such.
But it turns out that this is not for this, because you are tying the armored capsule to the caliber of the gun.
I completely do not see the logic.

[Per se.]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

What is armored capsule for?

To protect the crew, as you quite rightly believe. It sometimes happens that people stubbornly do not understand each other, what to do, perhaps psychological incompatibility, perhaps I am not expressing my thoughts well. If you are somehow confused by the mention of an armored capsule in conjunction with a 152 mm gun, this is primarily a consequence of the fact that it was when solving problems with the transition to a new caliber that the solution with an armored capsule was applied at object 195, before that, this was not was, that's all. Object 477 had a different layout with the 152 mm gun. Therefore, if I say that the armored capsule is more expedient precisely with a 152 mm gun, and precisely on the T-14, as "Ublyudka" from the object 195 (the ub-com "Armata" (T-14) called in his interview (2013 ) Sergey Alexandrovich Maev, Colonel General), then this is a tribute to the T-95. That's all the logic, and, on the T-95, the protection was not limited to one armored capsule.

Protection of a tank with a combat mass of about 55 tons provided for several levels. First, there are various camouflage type coatings, such as anti-radar capes and various deforming staining. Further, this is an active protection complex, for T-95 the Standard was developed by KAZ (combining the qualities of Arena and Drozd), while the Shtora-2 active optical-electronic countermeasures operated at the same time. The next level included a complex of dynamic protection, - a universal modular remote sensing station "Relikt" with elements of 4С23 (developed by the Research Institute of Steel, Moscow). Next, 81-mm 902B “Tucha” launchers for smoke and aerosol curtains, anti-nuclear protection equipment. Tank armor included various alloys, ceramics and composites. Finally, the T-95 crew itself had protection in the form of the already mentioned capsule, which was made of armor titanium, also titanium was used in many elements of the structure, reducing the weight of the tank. In addition, there was a set of protective uniforms tankers (such as "Cowboy").

[Hog]

1) The 152mm gun "fits" into a conventional, slightly reworked turret (object 292), it was made uninhabited not because of its size, but because the turret accounts for most of the hits in battle.
2) The automatic loader T-72/80/90 does not allow the use of "long" BOPS, so the Armata has more firepower with the same caliber due to new ammunition.
3) The meaning of a tank with an armored capsule is not to save the tank itself, but to save its crew (which does not sit between the banks and the BC.
4) The difference between the tank and self-propelled guns in their protection and the application on the battlefield.

[Per se.]

Quote: Hog

152mm gun "fits" into a regular, slightly redesigned turret (object 292)

Yes, it does, but this is a slightly different gun (152,4 mm LP-83), and a different layout concept. If we are talking about isolating the crew, we either get this very "armored capsule" for the crew, or we take out the automatic loader with a part of the ammunition in a cramped armored capsule, leaving the crew more comfortable conditions and increased protection, that's what we are talking about. Now innovations with images, only links to the VO server are obtained, look for the analysis of the layout of the T-14, and what will remain in the tower if the caliber is not 125 mm, but 152 mm.

https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2018-08/1534322615_t-14-komponovka.jpg
https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2018-08/1534322609_t-14-komponovka-2.jpeg

[philosopher]

Just do not kick much.
Why not take the projectiles into the aft niche, and place the propelling charges flat on the floor, where they will be the least accessible to defeat, and even separate them with an additional horizontal armored partition with a feed hatch. With all this, the length of the shells placed in the aft niche is practically irrelevant (within reasonable limits), and their supply by direct ramming into the breech will be faster and more reliable than rollovers with overturning, as now. With this arrangement, the tank will be protected from fire as a result of the destruction of propellant charges, as well as the crew will be as far as possible from the projectiles, which, even if they detonate, not under the back and not over the head, but behind several partitions and assemblies. Yes, in this case, most likely, the tank will be disabled, tk. no knockout panels are a panacea, but at least the crew will have more chances, plus damage to the tank from detonation of ammunition inside and outside is not comparable. It seems that something similar according to the descriptions was offered on the "Black Eagle" tank?

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Hog

2) The automatic loader T-72/80/90 does not allow the use of "long" BOPS, so the Armata has more firepower with the same caliber due to new ammunition.

The new AZs for the T-72-90 have a shell length limit of 70 with a penny of centimeters,
In Almaty, the permissible projectile length in AZ is about a meter.

[tomket]

Quote: Per se.

and not sculpt "platforms" on an expensive and complex base, spraying funds and technical power to the detriment of a new tank.

In general, they lowered the money and spent time. The output is a little more than zero. Everything as usual.
But there is such a moment. If the "Armata" is really still damp, and the industry is not ready for something, then it would be logical to send the T-90MS or whatever the latest modification to the troops in a wide flow, and not drive the T-72b3. However, even here it is not clear, therefore it is logical to assume that "Armata" and others do not go to the troops due to the lack of money. Which quite logically fits into the overall picture, when a bunch of impotent people called KABMIN is being exorcised as much as possible, that you are to snatch an extra ruble from the population and not pay an extra penny. Well, Borisov can only make a face in a bad game. Perhaps they will believe.

[philosopher]

No money? None of the foreigners who visited our World Cup will believe in this.
Just exactly into service no money, but for other, much more important and necessary goals for the country - as much as you like!
.
This is irony, if that.

[EvilLion]

Rather, the Abrams will get hit and burn, and the abundance of tanks generally radically reduces infantry losses.

As if the Abrams had something besides the equivalent meter in the forehead of the tower.

And so, well, probably, the Germans screamed when their T-34 caterpillars, so as not to waste the bullets, were crushed, and the super-duper "tigers" and "panthers" were not just knocked out, they were not in the right place at all.

[Lopatov]

Quote: EvilLion

Rather, "Abrams" will get in the bochin and burn

I'm afraid he won’t get anything. There are too many ATGM Americans, from which our armored vehicles are not completely protected.

[cariperpaint]

And the American is protected from ours?) They DZ and then sculpt only now started on board)

[Lopatov]

Quote: cariperpaint

Is the American protected from ours?)

They are already beginning to defend. In addition, the number of ATGMs that they have is beyond our means. We have 3 ATGMs per motorized rifle platoon. They have 7. And all of them are "roof-fighters"
And to keep in every division the army aviation brigade with 48 attack helicopters is too expensive for us

[asv363]

Quote: Spade

And to keep in every division the army aviation brigade with 48 attack helicopters is too expensive for us

Could you tell me how many divisions with 48 attack helicopter brigades are our most likely adversaries in the European theater of operations?

[edasko]

You would first read about the Kursk Bulge. What was the loss situation there.

[Hog]

For the most part, Tigers and Panthers did not have combat losses or they were hit by a caterpillar, but ours were much more fun, especially under Prokhorovka.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: EvilLion

And so, well, probably, the Germans screamed when their T-34 caterpillars, so as not to waste the bullets, were crushed, and the super-duper "tigers" and "panthers" were not just knocked out, they were not in the right place at all.

And you remember the fate of the tank army of Rotmistrov in the Battle of Kursk. What tanks was the army of Rotmistrov armed with?
Do not know the ratio of losses in the battle of the T-34 with the "Panthers", I'm not talking about the "Tigers"?
Take an interest, it is useful to you.

[yehat]

Panther Model G is 2 times heavier than T34. comparing their battle head on is somehow strange.
especially when you consider that the T34 guns are not anti-tank. The only anti-tank version with a 57mm gun was almost never used.
and it is worth recalling that even a panther often could not withstand getting t34-85 and did not keep almost any hit on board. (e.g. from t70)

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: yehat

Panther Model G is 2 times heavier than T34. comparing their battle head on is somehow strange.
especially when you consider that the T34 guns are not anti-tank. The only anti-tank version with a 57mm gun was almost never used.
and it is worth recalling that even a panther often could not withstand getting t34-85 and did not keep almost any hit on board. (e.g. from t70)

You know, Sergei, "Panrera" when meeting with the T-34 for some reason did not say - "you are not my equal, I will not enter into battle with you."
War is war. This is also a competition, but without rules. In it, opponents are not selected according to weight categories, as in boxing. And the German T-2 and T-3 had to meet with our KV-1 in 41st and our T-70 with Tigers in 44th. I will not talk about the results of these "meetings".

[yehat]

combat-ready panther (for example, I guessed that it was not a panrera) appeared en masse in the fields after the Kursk arc. at the end of 43 years. And with the T34 with a 76mm gun, it was relatively rare - more often with more serious machines.
According to my grandfather, for tanks there was much more trouble from the inept control of the commanders (often substituted in a disadvantageous situation) or from self-propelled guns - StugIIIg, all kinds of marders, etc. Moreover, the problem was not in their armor, but in the fact that they were either well disguised and in successful positions or very quickly moved to a dangerous position. Do not forget that the Germans often were the most skilled commanders on self-propelled guns.
And the Uber Panther, sweeping away thousands of T34 - these are fairy tales. The amers, who had big problems with tactics and where the panther had a combat score of 11: 1 against Shermans, got much more serious.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: yehat

en masse in the fields after the Kursk arc. at the end of 43 years. And with the T34 with a 76mm gun, it was relatively rare - more often with more serious machines.

What are you saying?
Serious, as you say, cars during the war were released:
KV-1 from 1940 to 42gg ​​- 3500 vehicles
KV-2 --------- 199 cars
IS-2 ------------- 3390 cars
T-34-76 during the Second World War - 30000 vehicles
yes T-34-85 about 17000 vehicles for a total of 47000 vehicles against 7089 "serious vehicles".
So what vehicles were most likely to meet with, in the words of your grandfather, "inept management of commanders"?

[yehat]

you carry nonsense. most of the T34-76 compounds were introduced into the breakthrough, where no panther, not even PzII was expected to be found. After the Kursk Bulge, it became clear even to enthusiasts of frontal attacks by light and medium tanks that this did not work against the heavy equipment of the Germans (all such attacks were repelled with at least 45% loss).
Therefore, since the fall of 43, there have been very few such episodes, and I say the panther REDCO met with the T34, and if it did, it was usually a hasty counter-operation to intercept small forces, where there was a literally incomplete battalion of Germans or even less, attacking on the move against tank division, in which there were not only T34, which rarely allowed the Germans to conduct a profitable battle.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: yehat

panther model G 2 times heavier than t34

So abrasha heavier than the T-90 will be. What suggest, disqualify?

[Setrac]

Quote: Cherry Nine

So abrasha heavier than the T-90 will be. What suggest, disqualify?

The T-90 has a more perfect layout, which makes it more protected with less weight.

[EvilLion]

Just learn the basics of strategy and tactics. How often do tanks meet tanks at all? And there were only 120 tigers near Kursk EMNIP. All the "panthers" were in 2 battalions of 96 units, which showed themselves in any way, only mines were collected, and the "panther" does not hold 85 mm shells. No way. And from the point of view of going on the attack, it is no better than the T-34-85, but it costs much more.

[Hog]

and 85 mm shells "panther" does not hold. No way

Apparently for this reason the IS decided to rearm on the D-25 and create the SU-100 and ISU-122 / 122S.
That fools were GBTU and GRAU.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: EvilLion

All the "panthers" were in 2 battalions of 96 pieces, which showed themselves in any way, only mines were collected, and 85 mm

My late father, anti-tank artillery (ZIS-3), had a different opinion.
And only when their regiment (separate IPTAP) was rearmament on BS-3 in January 45. they felt confident in the battle with any tanks.

[EvilLion]

ZIS-3, my dear, illiterate person, does not belong to anti-tank guns in any way, it has a very small propelling charge and is simply incomparable with 75-76 mm guns like PAK-40 or the British 17 tifuntovka. So don’t write what you don’t understand.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: EvilLion

So don’t write what you don’t understand.

Good advice.

Shipment ZiS-3, pcs.
Appointment 1942; 1943; 1944; 1945; Total
Divisional artillery 2005; 4931; 8494; 7825; 23 255
Anti-tank artillery 8134; 8993; 7620; 0; 24 747
Total 10; 139; 13 924; 16; 114 7825

ZiS-3 was the main anti-tank gun until the 45th year. Not because the analogue was 17 pounds, of course, but because there was nothing else. Do not consider the 53-K anti-tank gun. As for the ZiS-2, then 2226 units were produced at the end of the 43rd year.

[Berber]

Let's remember Israel. They have used and are using all the available equipment, including the trophy. Modern warfare is waged mainly in the info field (by the way, the victims of such a war are real). In conditions when there is not enough money, I think it is right to make such savings. And about 1 Abrams against three 72 - "with a pitchfork on the water."

[g1washntwn]

The question is not even how many T-72s do we need to disable 1 Abrams. The platform concept that was proposed for the Ministry of Defense is everything new, from logistics to tactics and strategy of database management. It so happened that the enterprises of the military-industrial complex were ahead of the movement of thought of the generals, who still barely twist in a straight meander and talks about modern combat only from the position of "bombs and lava on the enemy." Hypertrophying, the monkey was given a rifle, and she is barely able to use it as a club.
Let's be honest, the price here is far-fetched, just a revolutionary concept, as has often happened, turned out to be ahead of the "locomotive standing on the side track."

[Nikolaevich I]

Hypertrophic, the monkey was given a rifle, and she is barely able to use it as a club.[media = http: // https: //youtu.be/GUOWb8JAbes]
I hope you change your mind, offensive to the monkeys ....

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: g1washntwn

These 5-6 72's will be exchanged against 1 "Abrams" in the event of a collision. And the country is still giving birth to tankers. Does the concept of throwing cheap hats remind you of anything from history? The T-72's modernization potential is practically exhausted. Infinitely improve the shovel to go hand-to-hand with it on the enemy? For me, this is clear sabotage and sabotage.

Support.
Borisov's logic is justified, but in one case - our 72nd will not meet in battle with either the Abrams, or Leclerc, or Leopard
In the days of my childhood there was such a song - "If tomorrow is a war, if tomorrow is on a campaign ..." and so, if tomorrow is a war, then Borisov's logic is criminal.
Borisov probably thinks that he put the crew in the T-14 and he is already at war tomorrow. No, the crew must be taught a new technique for a long time and carefully, but how to teach it if this technique is not available? Expensive, sir. Probably, in his opinion, it is cheaper to lose together with crews 5-6 72s for one Abrams than 1 T-14 without a crew for a couple of Abrams

[Setrac]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Probably, in his opinion, it is cheaper to lose together with crews 5-6 72's for one Abrams than 1 T-14 without a crew for a couple of Abrams

You greatly exaggerate the power of the Abrams, about once every five to six.

[meandr51]

And Abrams has endless potential? These are machines of the same generation. With the same level of crew training, the exchange will be 1: 1. Not to mention the fact that "tanks do not fight with tanks." By the way, the concept of "throwing cheap hats" during the Second World War fully justified itself. Read the story of the German wunderwolf.

[yehat]

Abrams is a heavy tank. T72 (T90) is almost 20 tons lighter. These are very different tanks.
Abram can be compared with Is-7 or the Yagdtigr or somehow with a stretch of Armata.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: yehat

Abrams is a heavy tank. T72 (T90) is almost 20 tons lighter. These are very different tanks.
Abram can be compared with Is-7 or the Yagdtigr or somehow with a stretch of Armata.

We are not trying to talk about sports competition, where it is appropriate to talk about the class - heavy - medium, but we are talking about MBTs and military operations in which their duels are likely.

[yehat]

the probability of duels is much less than the probability of other threats to the tank.
the chances of getting a rocket in the roof or on the side, or getting hit by massive aimless shelling or hitting a mine are much higher than getting a sub-caliber from an enemy tank in armor from 5 km away.

[Setrac]

Quote: yehat

Abrams is a heavy tank. T72 (T90) is almost 20 tons lighter.

The Tiger tank weighed like an Abrams, and the IS-2 weighed like a T-90, a difference of twenty tons was then and is still there.

[yehat]

the tiger is, as it were, 15 tons lighter than the abrams of recent generations.

[Setrac]

Quote: yehat

the tiger is, as it were, 15 tons lighter than the abrams of recent generations.

The tiger weighed like abrams of the first generations.
Tiger II weighed more than the last abrams of recent generations.

[g1washntwn]

Quote: meandr51

By the way, the concept of "throwing cheap hats" during the Second World War fully justified itself

26,6 million dead The funeral for three grandfathers and the stories of one survivor about how they went to the attack with a stick, so that there was at least the appearance of a weapon in their hands - this is my personal price for such a "concept". I'm not going to subscribe my children to it.
And, the "wunderwaffe story" is interesting to me only in terms of an alternative history, in the realities of the Second World War it was practically at the same technological level, the breakthrough of the Germans in certain technologies after the 43rd did not solve anything.

[yehat]

with a stick was still very rare. My grandfather, a paratrooper, also went into battle with a stick and a knife when they took tongues. But somehow he didn't complain about it. and the losses of 26.6 million are not the losses of the army, but of the entire population of the USSR, most of which were not killed in battle. More than 3 million soldiers died from starvation in German captivity.And in the most brutal battles, the losses were different - about 1.1 million died near Rzhev in a year and a half of intense fighting, about 0.8 million died at Stalingrad, Smolensk (data are different, I saw about 0.2 million), Kiev (losses of the army, not unarmed population - 0.18 million) Berlin operation - more than 0.5. And they did not die because of the "stick".

[g1washntwn]

We have a completely opposite view of the database management strategy. You justify the massive, but cheap consumption of equipment and people, and I am in favor of "fighting not by numbers, but by skill."
To upgrade what is needed TOGETHER, and not instead of introducing new technologies.

[yehat]

Do not invent for me that I support or justify. I say that such an approach in the Red Army has never been - fill up cheap. A simple example - in the summer of 41, the infantryman of the Red Army had the most luxurious weapon in the world - a semi-automatic rifle. Nobody had that. So the myths about the planned savings are just myths. In reality, they prepared equipment as they could. This is already after ww2 began to save.
I read how the pilots of Leningrad air defense lived before the war — each had his own summer house, where he lived with his family, when the whole city was in communal apartments. Did they save on them ???
but the approach you voiced was popular among some of the commissars who came to positions from the civil war and conditional "Trotskyists." Here they are, they distinguished themselves.
Take, for example, the disastrous beginning of a Finnish company, while the military did not take up business.

[Hog]

A simple example - in the summer of 41, the infantryman of the Red Army had the most luxurious weapon in the world - a semi-automatic rifle

At the same time, he did not know how to handle it (cleaning), which is why the mosquito became the most mass, anyone can handle it.

[yehat]

I will tell you so, from the 41st to the 42nd year, the German infantrymen did not have a better trophy than the Soviet SVT. Then they liked PPSh more.

[Setrac]

Quote: g1washntwn

26,6 million dead

8.6 million - losses of military personnel. the remaining losses indicate that all Europeans are scumbags killing civilians.

Quote: g1washntwn

The funeral for three grandfathers and the stories of one survivor about how they went to the attack with a stick, so that there was at least the appearance of a weapon in their hands - this is my personal price for such a "concept".

A special case, nothing more than. Mosin rifles were enough for everyone.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Setrac

all Europeans

You're right. Only the Red Army knew how to fight so that the peaceful man was pleased. Here Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya became famous for this, for example.

[yehat]

Not certainly in that way. You need to understand that in the summer of 41, volunteer detachments were created and armed with anything horrible - they often lacked weapons, because warehouses were not everywhere. They were with axes, but this is not the army - it is rather the police, irregular forces. I believe that this phenomenon was the result of panic and brought very little benefit. Probably most of all they helped not against the Germans, but against the looters. But one cannot measure the armament of the army against them.

[tomket]

Quote: meandr51

Not to mention the fact that "tanks do not fight with tanks."

And in the Iranian-Iraqi war, the Arab-Israeli war, in the "Desert Storm", did tanks meet with tanks solely as a paradox of the 20th century?

[Sergei1982]

Quote: g1washntwn

These 5-6 72's will be exchanged against 1 "Abrams" in the event of a collision.

Do you have data that Abams is so good in comparison with the T-72B3M? You can link, who did the comparison and when?

[Vadim237]

Abrams is good - especially with firepower, with the new M829E4 BOPS and a versatile HE-HE shell with a programmable fuse, as well as, now, the presence of KAZ.

[philosopher]

Let me be curious, how many are there, these M1A2 SEP V3s with a full Trophy kit, etc.? Only not on paper and not in plans, but in reality. And how many older tanks can actually be upgraded to this level? As far as I know, everything is not so smooth there either, even with a "green fountain".

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: philosopher

and how many of them exist, these M1A2 SEP V3 with a full set of Trophy, etc.? Only not on paper and not in plans, but in reality

Not at all. Equipment M1A2 windbreakers laid in the next year. The first KAZ vehicles will be located in (Eastern) Europe (usually this is one ABCT, 87 cars, but it happens that two).

Quote: philosopher

And how many tanks of older modifications can actually be upgraded to this level?

There are no limits. Many times more than there are crews. ABCT is only ten. Plus tanks in the ILC, the National Guard, Army reserve.

Quote: asv363

Could you tell me how many divisions with 48 attack helicopter brigades are our most likely adversaries in the European theater of operations?

Are you talking about American divisions? Not at all. The nearest full-fledged American division is based in Yijonbu, Republic of Korea. All American divisions (there are 10) have Combat Aviation Brigade, including 48 Apaches, plus 2 separate brigades. This is not counting, again, NG and reserve. The KMP has no Apaches, but there is a Bell AH-1Z Viper.

However, as Vasily Ivanovich said, there is a nuance. Partners are organized not only in the division, but also in the NATO Response Force. Now it is approximately 30 thousand snouts, which should double by 2020. It seems that 60 thousand people - this is one corps for old money, there is nothing to worry about, but, firstly, a full-fledged American corps (for example, the 7th) can be quite surprising, and secondly, such armies with old money , as the 6th combined-arms Red Banner, and would not have passed for the division. On the other hand, it will be extremely difficult to assemble a new 7th building from a multinational state-owned company.

In addition, partners also have airplanes. And if discussion is possible on tanks, then on planes there is already no. In rapid response squadrons alone, there are more of them than modern (Su-30 and beyond) aircraft in the Russian Aerospace Forces.

[philosopher]

What airplanes are you talking about? About the F-35, which generation is 5-minus-minus? Or is it about the F-22, which are closer to generation 5, but cost as much as the floor of an aircraft carrier? If anything, the number of aviation from a potentially unfriendly side is balanced by the number and quality of air defense - with ours. The main thing is to correctly use everything.

[Strashila]

Throw everything and bet only on a super-duper weapon, it will be reckless. It is important not only to work out production, but also to work out the operation ... in fact, what it will cost.

[Hog]

Therefore, we must again switch to the production of T-34, give 1000 tanks a month, we will crush all.

[VIT101]

In the country truly the left hand does not know what the right is doing

[Sotskiy]

Quote: VIT101

In the country truly the left hand does not know what the right is doing

Look at the emblem of the Russian Federation, you will immediately understand why this is happening

[Alex_59]

The Vice Prime Minister noted that the Su-57 showed itself well in trials and in Syria. Technical specifications and combat capabilities received confirmation. However, it is not yet necessary to force the work on its mass production. Russia already has a Su-35C fighter of the 4 ++ generation, which is considered one of the best in the world. If available, the accelerated mass construction of newer Su-57 does not make sense.

In Soviet times, for such words, the Deputy Prime Minister would immediately be explained from above that his presence in this position no longer makes sense.

[Nick_R]

Therefore, there is no longer the USSR. Only tanks and planes remained from him. . .

[cariperpaint]

And what's so good about that? This means that someone above it will decide anyway how he wants.

[wooja]

It’s good that they don’t hurry with expensive toys ... even for the fat west, such joys are really expensive. Unfortunately, this is a global trend ...., visible progress has slowed in all areas, brains will continue to develop, but iron? Production becomes a very expensive pleasure in connection with its automation - a paradox. In the liberal world, the situation is even more interesting ... very high salaries, very high taxes, very dubious prospects for profit, Banks and Exchanges are good ... but the profits remain in the bank and the exchange, it is not profitable to invest in production especially in the liberal world . Let's hope for the Intelligence of the Russian leadership, perhaps this is the case when you need to hurry slowly

[yehat]

there is an old saying - you feed either your army or someone else's. The story does not give other options. I believe that a new generation of tanks is already needed. It’s not a fact that this is an armata, but it’s more visible to those who specialize in elephants.

[Vladimir Sukhoi]

Quote: yehat

you feed either your army or someone else's. There are no other options

Well, why immediately a stranger. To join NATO on general terms and spend 2% of GDP, as Trampushka requires. Of course, you will have to invest well once in the transition to NATO technical regulations and standards, but security in this shaky world is certainly worth it.
But the main thing is to hand over to our northern brothers the entire top of the Rosélite, at least the top hundred thousand, so that they rot them in the Hague and Guantanamas, so that there is no one else to drown for the self, A special way and a fantastic Russian world. One hundred thousand is certainly not enough, right a millionaire, but we will be restrained and moderate humanists, it is now fashionable

[asv363]

Quote: Vladimir Sukhoi

Well, why immediately a stranger. To join NATO on general terms and spend 2% of GDP, as Trampushka requires. Of course, you will have to invest well once in the transition to NATO technical regulations and standards, but security in this shaky world is certainly worth it.

Are you stupid or just a paid provocateur?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: yehat

there is an old saying - you feed either your army or someone else's. The story does not give other options. I believe that a new generation of tanks is already needed. It’s not a fact that this is an armata, but it’s more visible to those who specialize in elephants.

That's it. I'm not saying that all 72nd and 90th should be replaced with 14th, no, but a couple of divisions armed with T-14, T-15, "Boomerangs", etc., with the latest technology must be available.

[GUKTU76]

Quote: yehat

there is an old saying - you feed either your army or someone else's. The story does not give other options.

Full of options! For example, feed your army to death. There will be a kind of fat inactive hog, not able to turn. With a breadwinner falling from exhaustion.
I believe that a strategy has been chosen to maximize the use of the potential of existing forces and means with increasing their combat qualities through the use of a limited number of new weapons.
In general, I consider idiocy the rearmament by completely replacing one equipment with a fundamentally different one, when billions and trillions of money already spent are simply thrown away. But the modernization of the main fleet of vehicles plus new equipment, operating as a single tactical link, and even interacting with other types of weapons - this is the most effective way to economically feasible increase the power of the country's armed forces.
This, of course, is more complicated. In addition, it will take time to develop interaction and develop new tactics. But what could be the effect!

[yehat]

This scheme is interesting, but without constant real combat experience, it will crumble.

[cariperpaint]

This circuit is perfect. And the combat experience has nothing to do with it. Co-ordination should not be achieved in battle, but in study. And like any normal person, I would not want experience to come through losses.

[mark1]

"Su-57 and" Armata "against economics and expediency" ...
And also against the economy and feasibility of health care, pensions, education and perhaps the Russian people themselves.

[cariperpaint]

Damn, that's enough. What are you climbing with this dregs? Go to the square and get outraged there. You climb into all the holes with this pension.

[mark1]

Quote: cariperpaint

You climb into all the holes with this pension.

Well, of course - We would have a sword and a horse
- yes to the line of fire! ...
- because we are heroes
- Well, retirement, huh ... nya!

[igorra]

Our officials probably pull the devil for the tongue. Peter's commandment is still in effect: the boyars in the Duma should speak in unwritten words so that everyone’s nonsense is visible or, as the people say: keep silent, you’ll be a clever man. I would like to add to the wise thoughts of the People and the Tsar, we both did not have and do not have a single government, my friend Krylov described it well in fables about a quartet of disagreements and carts, which both now and now stand still. Still, some officials would cut off the languages, and burn out those who were especially distinguished on the forehead of the DB.

[Turgon]

The state defense order is made on the basis of the strategic situation on our borders and the actions of alleged opponents in the near future, to which all NATO countries and our FIRST FRIENDS China + would like to be ranked, if the situation develops negative for us, Japan will want to realize its plans for Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands. The fact that the practical and hypothetical situation on our borders is not in favor of long-term plans for the repair of existing equipment and orders in an N-number of years of advanced equipment that still needs to be mastered by the troops. In general, the article hits in the right direction.

[mark1]

And what do everyone in Gandolin think so?

Quote: Turgon

In general, the article hits in the right direction.

[Pbs2]

What does "biased publications" mean? What does "flashy headlines" mean? It is clear that journalists are trying to attract attention, it is not clear that the author is against this. Armata and the Su-57 are exactly what turned out to be too expensive for our budget, and this is just part of a much larger problem. Therefore, the critics are absolutely right. It's not a new technique that is criticized. They criticize the fact that Putin and his oligarch cronies plundered the budget so much that there is no money left even for critical areas - such as Barguzin, Rubezh, PAK-DA, Borey-B, not to mention the ocean fleet (or at least a distant sea zone). In such conditions, justifying the government, making soothing speeches, shifting accents, blurring the facts and criticizing those who point to its severity of the problem means being a traitor, means being an enemy of the entire Russian nation.

[EvilLion]

One should be banned for "plundering the budget", because it means only a lack of intelligence.

[Pbs2]

In, climbed the paid trolls of the king-priest to defend.

[tomket]

Quote: EvilLion

One should be banned for "plundering the budget", because it means only a lack of intelligence.

And can you explain how with the price for oil in 80 dollars, with the budget of 40 dollars, with super profits on the fact of rising gas prices in the country, where does the budget deficit come from, the pension system collapses and the VAT increases?

[Vadim237]

The budget also replenishes with the sale of gasoline - 70% of the cost of a liter. The fact that above 40 dollars goes to the Stabilization Fund, starting from 2008, it has dried out by 90% - and these 90% must be returned, since the day after tomorrow, a new crisis may break out.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Vadim237

The budget also replenishes with the sale of gasoline - 70% of the cost of a liter. The fact that above 40 dollars goes to the Stabilization Fund, starting from 2008, it has dried out by 90% - and these 90% must be returned, since the day after tomorrow, a new crisis may break out.

Do you know how inflation came in the nineties? Egorushka Gaidar, about whom it was said at his funeral that he was a brilliant economist, and so, this one, I don’t even know how to call him, did this with Chubais: they forcedly increased the price of gas four times, and released the rest of the prices. Even the drunk Yeltsin felt that something was not happening. He fixed the price of bread.

[Vadim237]

And why is this a tale?

[mark1]

Quote: EvilLion

You should be banned for "robbing the budget", because it means only a lack of intelligence

Well, with intelligence, as I understand it, Gandolin is ruled over, and what’s the reason for spending intelligence on nm ...

[cariperpaint]

Who has stolen? What is the budget? Do you think with your head when you write something? How can you steal from the budget? How damn it ?! Good money is allocated to the defense industry. From them, and dancing MO.

[Revival]

For example: Auditors revealed violations of 760 billion rubles in the state-owned corporation Roscosmos. This was announced by the Chairman of the Accounts Chamber Alexei Kudrin, reports Interfax.

According to him, more than 40% of violations identified by the Accounts Chamber for 2017 relate to the activities of the state corporation. Kudrin added that the results of inspections have already formed the basis of criminal cases. What kind of business is involved, he did not specify. “The total amount of identified violations, deficiencies in revenues and use of funds amounted to 1 trillion 865 billion [rubles]. This is almost twice as much as in 2016, and 3,5 times more than in 2015, ”said Kudrin.

[cariperpaint]

They do not disappear from the budget. And after the budget money comes to the realization. These are radically different things. Money cannot be stolen from the budget. This is about this. As for the clever thieves, they must be planted and money returned, and this is indisputable.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Revival

For example: Auditors revealed violations of 760 billion rubles in the state-owned corporation Roscosmos. This was announced by the Chairman of the Accounts Chamber Alexei Kudrin, reports Interfax.

You do not know the specifics of this business.

1. Kudrin also needs to report on the work performed. And he reports, basically, with the same bullshit as everyone else. Specifically, the leadership has just changed in the RK. The more the new leadership "reveals" the sins of the old, the more convenient it is.
2. "Violations" and "theft" are not the same thing. In Russia, nothing can be done without "violations". Kudrin did not find 760 billion in shoeboxes, but only a couple of tons of papers that annoy him.

This is not to say that the figures of Roscosmos are holy people. This is because Kudrin is also not the apostle Peter, you know.

[Pbs2]

Plundered embezzlers. The budget is like what, ours, Russian. If you think that you can’t steal from it, you should completely tear your brains out of your head and drown them in the toilet. Although even without brains it is difficult not to notice the governors with billions in pantries and Vasiliev with hundreds of millions of pants. Which, by the way, was returned to her after her release. Fortunately, your post shows that you are only a paid troll, but the people have brains and eyes.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: Pbs2

The budget is like what, ours, Russian. If you think that you can not steal from it

Tpruuu ... It's not just about the "budget", but about the "military budget of the Russian Federation", right?

So, to steal something from there, so that without consequences it is really problematic. "Special accounts of GOZ" (the term is such) to help you - google, educate yourself.

Quote: Pbs2

you are just a paid troll, but the people have brains and eyes

About the "paid troll" - IMHO a bold statement. I would even say - too bold.

And for the people of you, as far as I understand, no one authorized to speak. Duc and speak - for yourself: "I have brains"

PS: Judging by your comments here - I have reasonable doubts about their availability and, most importantly, the quality

[Pbs2]

It's about the military budget. To steal something from there is elementary, which is why they are being dragged by billions. From the famous - google, say, who is Vasilyeva. And the statement about the troll is not bold, but simply a statement of an obvious fact. You are used to creating alternative words as Americans. Only such a reality is possible only until the people wake up. And how this happens - even talking, it won’t help. You can say that it is problematic to steal, and that goats, and that special accounts, and that if something is not there and wrong, it is not from the budget and it was not stolen at all, and generally it does not count. It still won’t help. They will take the wire, throw it over the lantern, pull it - and that’s all, all your arguments will end right there.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Golovan Jack

So, from there to steal something, but that without consequences still - really problematic.

))))
You are certainly right. Not everyone can.

Quote: Golovan Jack

Help you - google, self-educate.

I do not advise self-education in such matters on the Internet. Here you need to work, hands, so to speak, touch.

[cariperpaint]

Are you normal Doesn’t the elementary reach you? Money is not stolen from the budget !!! It is physically impossible. They are stolen after tranches come from the budget to the accounts of these ingenious. Schemes are not important. But not from the budget !!! Drive it into your head. If the budget allocated the ruble for something, then the ruble will come! And how they spend this ruble is a completely different movie. And do not be rude.

[Pbs2]

I'm normal. Comes not only elemental but also very complex. In particular, the fact that people like you, with your anti-national casuistry, should not just be rude - you need to return the article "Enemy to the People" and shoot people like you en masse. The budget paid - the country did not get what it needed - no one sat down because all this happens at the level of leadership and is incorporated into the system. For all normal people, this process takes place under the notion of "stealing the budget." And what you think about this is of no interest to anyone, because at your expense everyone is interested in only one thing - when you are finally buried two meters underground.

[cariperpaint]

Treat your head. And drink motherwort. Although to whom I spend time ...

[jonht]

According to "Armata" there was information on the site that they treat childhood diseases (video review, and they are trying to set up a 3-D projection for the mechanized drive at least for a correct understanding of the area). Therefore, they are in no hurry, they conduct military tests.
According to the Su-57, the rush is all the more unnecessary, we are approaching the second stage engine and new radars (ROFAR).
They will make a link or two for conducting military and fine-tuning weapons, and that’s the thing. But already in the series it is necessary to start up completely ready.

[yehat]

for T50, you need to gain experience in operating at least an experienced unit. Even with incomplete avionics, you need aircraft to fly. It may not make sense to make bulk purchases, but you need to equip at least one part and make training machines for further movement. For example, to develop a tactical niche for an essentially completely new type of aircraft. Practice tactics. Test the aspect of stealth technology and identify real effectiveness. Works the sea!

[EvilLion]

Che will, che will, but nothing will be, they poke at the "Armata", but it will stall due to the lack of tanks from the enemy and the impossibility of seriously raising the performance characteristics without a sharp increase in weight. Something will go to other projects later. The same T-90 is still being modernized.

The Su-57 will not go anywhere, because the Armata is just a box in which the crew was transferred to other places. This has absolutely no effect on the tactics of use and organization, solving an exclusively private task of increasing protection, which depends not only and not so much on the design features of the tank, but on the number of vehicles and their ability to neutralize threats with fire.

And there is no need to write anything about "plundered". The fact that the tank has an equivalent 50 mm in some place will not make it radically more effective. The T-64 over the T-72 also had a formal superiority in performance characteristics.

And, Su-35 and Su-57 are fundamentally new concepts of warfare, both in terms of the information environment and flight data.

[yehat]

What is fundamentally new in the LTX su-57, for example, in comparison with the su-30MKI?
maybe more economical at supersonic and at such a speed will fly further, that’s all.

[EvilLion]

Well, I don’t know, ultra-high speed at long distances, the ability to penetrate zones saturated with air defense systems due to low visibility, this alone creates new tactical capabilities and changes the rules of the game.

[yehat]

conspicuity is LTH, there is no superhigh speed either. But there is an opportunity to fly on cruising modes faster.

[M. Michelson]

Accepted tactics leave room for maneuver. And this is the most important, since no one knows the physiognomy of a future war. And to fall into it without the reserved options will be a disaster.

[yehat]

there are dual-purpose expenses - investments in transport, in infrastructure, in heavy industry, in machine tool construction, the opening of element base production. It is possible to develop this, something that certainly will not be lost without benefit. The same thermal imagers do not buy, but do. Or are there options for future conflicts where this is completely unnecessary? Yes, at least put things in order with warehouses, ports and equipment storage!
I’ll touch on another topic separately - the infrastructure of military hospitals is completely inadequate. why not do it?

[Servisinzhener]

Not a day without an article on the topic of Su-57 will not be, T-14 will not. We refuse new weapons. And all based on a privately understood quote from Borisov. Which said that at the moment it is not planned to replace the entire fleet of fighters and tanks on the Su-57 and T-14.
So local authors do not want to miss the opportunity to write a relevant article on a hot topic.
But if you stop shouting: - "How long" and tear fofudyu on the chest. And if we turn to the history of development, adoption and production of military equipment, we can see that some time has passed since the start of development. And until the complete replacement of equipment and even more.

[yehat]

It is proposed to continue to produce serial Su-35S fighters, and in parallel to prepare the production of more advanced Su-57s. Without unnecessary rush.

Yes, what rush about it? the point is a completely stupid drag out of work and organization, which raises the need for haste. And I recall - about 3 years have been lost due to incomprehensions with funding from the Indians and the budget. About 4 years are lost due to the fact that the product 30 actually began to be re-made. Altogether, there are already 7 years of delays and a sharp rise in the cost of the project, and after all, other decisions of the project are gradually becoming obsolete and therefore it is necessary to hurry so as not to build a sailboat in the era of ships. Therefore, there is no need to hang up noodles and it is worth putting the real order in the work of managers of the military-industrial complex - no haste in work, only fines, demotion, reprimands, dismissal and landing for embezzlement.

[EvilLion]

What do you know about ed. 30? You are a spy? And here are the Indians, do you think that the KB is just sitting and waiting for the Indians?

[Pbs2]

I will answer for the one who wrote the post. I suppose that although he is not a spy, he knows for sure that ed.30 is still not in the series and xs when it will be. As well as the plane that was promised back five years ago, the troops began to deliver in large quantities. So, of course, he won’t tell who the KB is waiting for, but you can find out what they are sitting and waiting for without being a spy.

[yehat]

look at official reports - at first one schedule of engine release was announced. Then it was simply reset to zero and from that moment they began to set the FUTURE deadlines virtually anew.
Based on these data, I came to the conclusion that the project to create an engine was actually launched anew.
Look at the deadlines by which the second phase passed - if you multiply them by 2, you get just the beginning of messages about the development of ed.30. Now, in fact, documentation for serial production, ed. 30, is already ready, and a small series for testing has been released, at least one engine is already on the PAK FA airplane (or I don’t know a couple), but to let the products go into a large series, you need to at least check him for childhood illnesses. (The Americans began to produce f-35 without waiting for the correction of problems and for many years they have been tormented and the program is becoming more expensive)
No spies, just read the official messages from the developers of the engine.

[spektr9]

These solutions make it possible to get serious savings.

Can immediately dissolve the army, then what will be, but just uhhh

Promising developments, such as the Su-57 or Armata, will certainly go to the troops in the foreseeable future. And their number (albeit not immediately) will meet all the requirements, wishes and restrictions

By demand, wish and limitation of whom? NATO countries?

[Dzafdet]

Uncle Vova needs to do the old trick: collect the oligarchs and give them envelopes. And there: there are so many fittings for you, the SU-57, the BMP, etc ... Otherwise, he doesn’t want to collect taxes from them ...

[cariperpaint]

Of course we don’t want to) we are filling this budget with our 13 percent ... Well, look at least for the sake of laughter, who pays the most taxes, or what ... At the same time, find out who collects taxes, otherwise I just saw that the head of state turns out to be engaged in ...

[Pbs2]

You should at least read something about the tax system before talking about 13 percent ... But you really look stupid. Well, at the same time, they would find out who and with whose money built all those plants that the oligarchs now own, and who owns the mineral resources that they are developing ... Otherwise, such remarks on your part do not even smell like stupidity, but betrayal.

[cariperpaint]

When this clown is banned?))) He spoiled the whole branch) has already shot everyone, buried it under the ground, and the moders are sleeping)))

[Setrac]

Quote: cariperpaint

When this clown is banned?))) He spoiled the whole branch) has already shot everyone, buried it under the ground, and the moders are sleeping)))

He writes the truth.

Quote: Pbs2

who and with whose money built all those plants that the oligarchs now own, and who owns the bowels they develop ...

It is high time to return the means of production to state ownership, and let private traders engage in small business.

[Cellulitis]

And he does not want and will not!))) Friendship is more important!

[yehat]

some kind of feudalism ...

[Cellulitis]

Everything is simple! zilch from a bunch!

[fif21]

Yuri Borisov's quite reasonable position: Russia's armaments are half a step ahead of the western armaments. It is necessary to develop new weapons, but launching them into mass production is not advisable and expensive. The times when the "hawalo" are over are all over. The word for the manufacturers is the cost reduction.

[tractor driver73]

Let's build the Patriots better! And as soon as "Era" appears, the scribe will come to all armies of the world!

[x.andvlad]

Three years later, the Defense Ministry realized that the Armata and other new types of weapons could not afford.

However, Yu. Borisov did not call for the complete rejection of the fifth generation car. It should be a kind of "trump card" that can be "played" in appropriate circumstances. When the fighters of previous generations begin to lag behind their foreign counterparts, the time comes for the Su-57.
I wonder how this "trump card" can be used if there are only 12 of them, God forbid, against hundreds (if not thousands) of fifth-generation aircraft from the enemy. They already sculpt this F-35 like pies.
Obviously, the sanctions of the Anglo-Saxons reach their goals.

[123456789]

Generals are always preparing for the past war ”...

[Polymer]

Quote: Sergei1982

, well, and as the author correctly noted, it is not known whether the industry is ready for the series.

Who doesn’t know? If it is simple inhabitants, then it is understandable, but if the top leaders of the relevant industries and the government, then it is not clear what they are doing there. Is it not their direct duty to organize all these processes?
In the event of a real military conflict, in a couple of days or even weeks you won’t stamp new tanks and planes - and this is, as usual, a huge loss of people and territories ...

[Vladimir Sukhoi]

Su-57 in the series is good if a hundred lyamy green for the MO will cost, and the F-35 is correctly getting rid of children's sores and already weighs 85 - 90 lyamov depending on the modification with a trend towards further cheaper prices.
KLA works terribly inefficiently. Compared to competitors, economic performance is simply staggering.

[cariperpaint]

Even if they manually begin to be assembled completely when they go into mass production, they will not cost that much))) the cost of the program is generally cheaper by orders of magnitude) I can understand everything, but what you saw how ineffective they are, I don’t understand) su 57 is not yet serial. What are you building your conclusions on?)))

[Vladimir Sukhoi]

Too many fun emoticons.
I wanted to emboss a summary table of comparative indicators in the American, European and Russian aviation industry, but for some reason the forum machine does not miss. After the takeover of the UAC, the headcount of the Rostec aviation cluster will exceed the total number of Airbus and Boeing employees combined, but at the same time, the enlarged structure will not even come close to them in terms of financial performance. KLA is not a prosperous corporation today, to put it mildly, and after the merger with Rostec, a huge, clumsy monster will turn out.
Why merge? Chemezov promised to increase Rostec’s turnover to one and a half tricks; nothing was said about profit.
Economic indicators:
Revenue, net profit, portfolio of orders, number of employees, labor productivity of one employee.
By all measures, pure water is a disaster.

[vvnab]

So the point is not even in the military, but in the industrial potential! How interesting is the industry going to switch to new types of weapons in wartime if now, in peace conditions, is unable to do so?

[cariperpaint]

Uvz has long said that it is ready for the series. This is not the case.

[vvnab]

Quote: g1washntwn

Quote: meandr51

By the way, the concept of "throwing cheap hats" during the Second World War fully justified itself

26,6 million dead......

Why not 100 or 200?
You do not confuse demographic losses with the battle! ~ 8.5 million Soviet soldiers died, and the Third Reich and its allies ~ 7.2. And enough of this liberal nonsense to spread the inconceivable losses!

[ser56]

according to your data, 8,5-7,2 = 1,3 million - a noticeable difference ...
I note that prisoners are included in combat losses, if you add them (captured before capitulation) - the difference will be even greater ...

[Setrac]

Quote: ser56

according to your data, 8,5-7,2 = 1,3 million - a noticeable difference ...
I note that prisoners are included in combat losses, if you add them (captured before capitulation) - the difference will be even greater ...

Everything is a bit wrong, in the lists of losses only those prisoners - that died (died) in captivity. In Soviet captivity, 25% of prisoners of war died, in German captivity - 75 percent of the Red Army, that's the whole difference, here are your 1.3 million.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Setrac

In Soviet captivity, 25% of prisoners of war died, in German captivity - 75 percent of the Red Army,

Seriously? Where do these numbers come from? What was the position of the USSR government on this issue?

[Setrac]

Quote: Cherry Nine

Seriously? Where do these numbers come from?

From open sources.

Quote: Cherry Nine

What was the position of the USSR government on this issue?

The position was treacherous - the German Democratic Republic was an ally of the USSR under the Warsaw Treaty, and therefore the Jews who ruled the USSR forgave the Germans for the murders of Russians, as did the Poles forgave the 80 killed Red Army soldiers during the civil war.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Setrac

From open sources.

Is it like "Google help?"

Quote: Setrac

East Germany was an ally of the USSR

And I'm not talking about the GDR.
I will help you.
According to Krivosheev, 46% of prisoners of war, 1,8 million out of 3,4 million did not return (killed or defectors), Slegonets do not reach your 75%.
The British and Americans killed 8 thousand people (3,6% of prisoners). The Germans in the USSR killed about 15% of prisoners of war (Galitsky, Krivosheev).
How can you explain such a difference between Western and Soviet losses in captivity? Exclusively German selectivity in cannibalism? What measures did the government of the USSR take to rectify the situation?

[Setrac]

Quote: Cherry Nine

According to Krivosheev, 46% of prisoners of war, 1,8 million out of 3,4 million did not return (killed or defectors), Slegonets do not reach your 75%.

I agree, the numbers vary.

Quote: Cherry Nine

How can you explain such a difference between Western and Soviet losses in captivity? Exclusively German selectivity in cannibalism?

Fascism? Nazism? Humanity is inherent in all Europeans, and not just Germans.

Quote: Cherry Nine

What measures did the government of the USSR take to rectify the situation?

He fought with the Third Reich. Let me remind you that the Third Reich signed the convention on prisoners of war and did not comply with it, the USSR did not sign, but complied with.

[Town Hall]

Quote: Cherry Nine

The Germans in the USSR killed about 15% of prisoners of war (Galitsky, Krivosheev).

I suspect that these 15% are calculated by the method of including all those millions of captured Germans after the surrender of the Wehrmacht.


If we count the German prisoners of 1941-1944, there are times different percentages. I remember from the first large "batch" of German prisoners, Stalingrad, something about 10% survived.


And the point is not only in the "genocide". It was elementary not possible to equip such a mass of prisoners. Logistics. Neither forces nor means nor possibilities.


The Germans have the same problems. In the 41st million-strong streams of prisoners for several months. Almost all of them died. The prisoners of the following years basically survived

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: ser56

according to your data, 8,5-7,2 = 1,3 million - a noticeable difference ...

In terms of numbers, it looks like only killed and only soldiers. The lie here is that by "Germany and the allies" I mean, incl. Japan, which lost almost 2 million, Romanians, Italians who died in the West, etc. A common substitution, when, on the one hand, losses of WWII are considered, and on the other - WWII. Specifically, the eastern front - 1: 2 approximately for the killed. Nobody can say for sure.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote from vvnab

and the Third Reich and its allies ~ 7.2

Was the axis considered with Japan?
Try to find separately losses by the Second World War.

[Bypassed]

So I congratulate dear Russians. It seems that the practice of the commission on "pseudoscience" under Mr. "iPhone" and the Russian Academy of Sciences is taking root in other bodies of state administration.
Once I was asked at a meeting on the consideration of promising technologies - "Or maybe buy it in the West - they already have a solution." He answered - yes it is possible even in the West, even in China. But the current is the death of his school as such.
Due to the specifics of the work, from time to time I monitor and RF. So what is interesting - about 5 years ago, Mr. VVP complained to the West that with their "subversive technologies" (high-tech) they are forcing the Russian Federation to invest a lot of money in the development of technologies. And then suddenly the rhetoric changed dramatically - we (the RF) need "breakthrough technologies". Wait - two steps back again? This talking head is unlikely to voice its personal opinion.

[cariperpaint]

What are you making such conclusions, I don’t understand ... Two steps back in which area? Test machines. The series will be done. What is the tragedy then?

[Pbs2]

Damn, what do you really get paid for posts? I’m already tired of answering your nonsense ... Okay, figs with you, slander))) Fortunately, people are already starting to distinguish in enemies like you enemies who you need to mercilessly fight to the bitter end.

[Leonid60]

Quote: Andrey Yurievich

before the people were delighted with new planes and tanks, now the pension reform and VAT. mmmdaa .... by the way, instead of the promised 200 rubles since August (a terrible figure!), they added to the pension, working pensioners ... 5 rubles !!! (friends are also 5-10). the lie continues. glory "er".

Sorry, you grunt about raising your pension by 200 rupees! And what’s the hype? And what’s better, to increase your defenses, or without panties, but in a tie?

[kiril-belo]

First of all, it is necessary to engage in domestic politics (an example of the PRC), and only then, relying on a good economic and raw material base, conduct an independent foreign policy. Now they’re not fighting in the field

[Setrac]

Quote: kiril-belo

First of all, it is necessary to engage in domestic politics (an example of the PRC), and only then, relying on a good economic and raw material base, conduct an independent foreign policy. Now they’re not fighting in the field

This is all garbage, the enemy has a population and industry ten times larger, we can never be compared with them in terms of economic and raw material base, so we need to do here and now, and not wait for the manna from heaven.

[koramax81]

The article is good, the meaning is clear. In the event of war, no one will fight on super-expensive equipment - the main power will be made up by inexpensive equipment in the production and operation.
But a new technique is still needed. Otherwise, the development will be stopped ...
PS Guys less about pension reform - got it already. It's good to judge from the couch - I would look at you when you have to make such decisions. I am sure many views will immediately change.

[kiril-belo]

and meanwhile, salaries at UVZ in tank workshops fell 3 times ... They save as usual on ordinary people, and not on dumb top management.

[cariperpaint]

Why so modest? Lie right away that 10 times) it's not the bags to carry.)))

[Pbs2]

Because ten times it's a lie. But three times, especially taking into account inflation and the dollar - this is easy. You want to buy a laptop, and you need to work for it not two weeks, but two months. And on TV they broadcast that life has become better, life has become more fun.

[Setrac]

Quote: Pbs2

You want to buy a laptop, and you need to work for it not two weeks, but two months.

A laptop is a specific tool, why do you need it?

Quote: Pbs2

And on TV they broadcast that life has become better, life has become more fun.

Do you consider your life on laptops?

[marline]

So read in the comments and you will understand that in Russia the armies of the sofa are especially strong !!! And what kind of hazy mood: "Yes, we will tear everyone apart, just give me more reinforcement !!!" and "Generals are radishes, but we know better from the sofa how much reinforcement is needed in the army ..."
Let's imagine that tomorrow the army gets 2300 armatures, and the day after tomorrow there is a war, and what will happen? But nothing - we will meet the enemy with a bare bottom and, as someone already wrote "with a stick" ... Why? Because it is not the Armats who are fighting, but the people. Because tankers on armatures do not know how to fight, repairmen cannot service them and in general the tank is still new and raw ... To understand that it will be quite enough to calculate how many T-34s and KV-1s were in the western military units at the beginning of 41- go and compare with the number of German tanks, and then think about why we fought in the 42nd on the T-60.
However, if you think not hunting or nothing, you can continue to arrange in your imagination tank rush forehead to forehead armatures and abrams - this is so much fun.

[spektr9]

But nothing - we will meet the enemy with a bare bottom and, as someone has already written "with a stick" ..

Why are the couch "hurray! Patriots" who believe that the T-72 carries 100 abroms, and the Su-35 destroys all 200 raptors with one left, they will all be torn to pieces

To understand that it will be quite enough to calculate how many T-34s and KV-1s were in western military units at the beginning of the 41st and compare with the number of German tanks, and then think about why we fought in the 42nd on the T-60

Right, you had to immediately fight on the t-60, then Berlin would have taken 41 ... It is interesting that according to your logic, Isa began to produce at the end of the war the t-60 was enough for everyone?

[marline]

I advise you to carefully read the last sentence in my message again. I hasten to congratulate you - it is written specifically for you !!!
As for your incomparably clever statements, I have to report:
- when used correctly, one T-72 may well carry 100 abrash;
- with improper use of 100 valves, one Abrams may well blow.
Next, you write:

Quote: spektr9

Right, you had to immediately fight on the t-60, then Berlin would have taken 41

I would say in short - it was necessary to fight correctly.

[spektr9]

I would say in short - it was necessary to fight correctly.

From the sofa it’s more visible how to fight properly

it concerns your incomparably clever statements, I have to report:
- when used correctly, one T-72 may well carry 100 abrash;
- if used incorrectly, 100 valves may well blow one

This commander is not enough for us, I suggest you give out one t-60 (your favorite), you will definitely defeat them all

[marline]

Quote: spektr9

From the sofa it’s more visible how to fight properly

Read the last sentence in my first post in this thread. I hasten to congratulate you - it is written specifically for you !!!

Quote: spektr9

This commander is not enough for us, I suggest you give out one t-60 (your favorite), you will definitely defeat them all

You correctly confuse tank models - my advice to you is to first learn this topic, and then get into disputes ...
And yes, read the last sentence in my first post in this thread. I hasten to congratulate you - it is written specifically for you !!!

[Curious]

The funny thing is that there is nothing new in the situation with the purchase of new weapons.
The current situation was predicted at least two years ago. And the fact that for a certain category the situation was news is solely the result of an information policy on the one hand, and atrophy under the influence of these media of a significant part of the audience on the other hand.
For example, let's take the VO site. It frequently contains articles from The National Interest. At the same time, the articles are selected and prepared in such a way as to please the local "uryapatriots" and give the generalsimus of the "News" section the opportunity to write comments about stupid "mattress mats".
In fact, The National Interest is a pretty serious resource with a level of analytics that is currently unattainable for HE. You just have to periodically visit it and read the materials yourself.
So on November 7, 2016, when fanfare was thundering here about the fact that after seeing "Armata" the foe in panic was ready to surrender en masse, the article "Russia's Armata T-14 Tank Could Be Super Dangerous on the Battlefield (But There Is One Simple Problem) ".
For those unfamiliar with the enemy language - "Russian T-14 Armata could become super dangerous on the battlefield (but there is a small problem).
The author of the article is Majumar known to everyone, and the content is almost the same as in Mr. Ryabov’s article today, only Ryabov has facts in the present tense and Majumar in the future.
And at the end of the article, the conclusion: "Most analysts tracking the Kremlin's military developments agree that the principal tank used by the Russian Ground Forces through the 2020s will be the relatively cost effective T-72B3. Even the T-90A is too expensive." In the coming years the principal battle tank that NATO will have to face in Europe is not even the T-90A, it is the T-72B3 ".
“Most analysts who follow the Kremlin’s military developments agree that the main tank used by the Russian Ground Forces in the 2020s will be the relatively cost-effective T-72B3. Even the T-90A is too expensive.” In the coming years, the main battle tank which NATO will face in Europe is not even the T-90A, but the T-72B3. "
Suddenly, someone will want to see the article - https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-armata-t-14-tank-could-be-super-dangerous-the-18330.
Those interested can also independently try to carry out monitoring of aviation and other "unparalleled" samples.

[marline]

Quote: Curious

So on November 7, 2016, when fanfare was thundering here about the fact that having seen "Armata" the adversary in panic was ready to surrender en masse ...

Viktor, when in 2015 the fanfare "thundered" on VO, an article by Robert Farley was immediately published on VO with plus or minus the same content as the article by Majumar cited by you. So you are a little unfair to the VO editorial board.
Moreover, this online edition, as I understand it, does not set itself the goal of reprinting NI.
In general, if you follow the press, you should know that articles on the topic: "The road and the budget will not cope with armata ..." began to appear at about the time when information about the development of this project appeared in the media. So there is no discovery here - everything has long been chewed a hundred times ...

[Curious]

I remember this article. In addition, I did not write that there were no articles published. I wrote about how they are served and how they are perceived. Remember the comments under that article?

[marline]

Quote: Curious

I remember this article. In addition, I did not write that there were no articles published. I wrote about how they are served and how they are perceived. Remember the comments under that article?

Well, many people have difficulties with critical thinking. In addition, comments are often written for populist purposes.
For the rest, I would like to apologize - I did not understand your message correctly.

[Curious]

Moreover, the presence of critical thinking is very discouraged and is persistently struggling with its manifestations.

[Jack O'Neill]

I remember when the Armata platform was presented, and they promised to make MBT, armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles based on it, I was very happy. Then they also merged the T-14 scheme, where the tankers were sitting in an isolated capsule and would have remained alive if the ammunition was blown up.
This innovation for our tanks attracted me a lot, especially if we recall our base in the form of T-72 and T-80 with different patches, like T-90 (A).
Well, I thought that around the 10-15 years, they would replace most of the T-72 / T-80 with a new platform.
Time passed, tests were carried out, advertised in military programs like "Military Acceptance" (hello to the host, who did not understand at all what he was doing there). Pushing the platform everywhere!
Well, the time has come when it turned out that T-72B3 is enough ...
The T-72 itself, as an MBT, is good, its huge disadvantage is in the survivability of the crew, and it is because of this that I always heitel it, especially against the background of the same "Abrams".
It is a pity that the promising technology is not needed, because it is expensive ...

[Vladimir Sukhoi]

Mass robotization, and of course not only in the military sphere, is also expensive. Today, a huge mass of extra rogue competes with robots. Well, nothing, there is every reason for hope for the best.

[marline]

Quote: Vladimir Sukhoi

Today, a huge mass of extra rogue competes with robots.

I suggest you kill yourself against the wall and not compete ...

[Vladimir Sukhoi]

Our company specializes in the production of flexible automated lines and industrial robotics, I know what I'm talking about.

[marline]

Quote: Vladimir Sukhoi

Our company specializes in the production of flexible automated lines and industrial robotics, I know what I'm talking about.

Do you work as a cleaner in it?
You know, the fact that you have something to do with automation does not mean that you know how in sociology, it’s like speaking is not a sign of intelligence ...

[Vladimir Sukhoi]

Co-owner

[marline]

Quote: Vladimir Sukhoi

Co-owner

Congratulations!!!
At least now your desire to divide people into grades is understandable ...

[Vladimir Sukhoi]

Here are the goodies)

[kakvastam]

Until the "Armata" proves its high characteristics in the process of real operation, there is no reason to be proud of it or to blame the lack of mass deliveries of this tank to the troops.
It may turn out that the shortcomings mentioned now only in passing will make its maintenance and use a real nightmare, and it will take years to bring the raw machine to mind.

[Vladimir Sukhoi]

If such trouble happened with fittings and dryers, then it’s scary to even think about the sad fate of avant-garde and poseydonchik

[yehat]

as was the case with Is-3. It was clear to everyone that the tank was still cool in the parade in Germany in the 45th, but how many years had passed before it was brought to mind ...

[Vladimir Sukhoi]

Today, for dear Russians, the main factor is Time, a precious time. In the hourglass at the top of the sand a little bit remains.

[tank66]

tell Putin that the t-72 guns are being cleaned with bricks ...

[Narak-zempo]

It’s not iron that fights in war. People are fighting. And Russian history has proved that the fighting qualities of our people can to some extent (and very significant) compensate for the backlog in the materiel.
And if people are fighting, it is economically feasible to make the reproduction of these same people cheaper for the state. Ideally, completely at their expense. After all, as it was in the old days - the peasantry and grain grew for export (when there was no oil yet), and they paid taxes and provided recruits, while not a penny went to the treasury.
Now they are slowly returning to this scheme: pension reform, educational, medical, VAT increase, etc.

[yehat]

the state doesn’t spend anything on citizens, so the question is cheaper or more expensive
the question is different - how much can you shear off the sheep?
in the government this approach rules - if a cow is less frequently fed and milked more often, it will be more efficient.
but somehow the nuance is forgotten that population growth, and even possessing the required qualities, is a thing that requires costs. Americans spend more on this than the entire budget of the Russian Federation, and it turns out so-so.

[Narak-zempo]

Man is a man, not a sheep or a cow. Labor, as Marx teaches us, is the only product that creates value greater than what it costs. It will be made ready, it will work hard in three jobs, if two are not enough. Time is difficult, it is necessary to tighten the belt.

[Vladimir Sukhoi]

There are two circumstances:
* In the modern world, not every two-legged one creates surplus value. Such a minority and the number of generators of surplus value are rapidly and steadily decreasing. The number of people wishing to jump on a social network is growing at approximately the same pace.
* In the discussion of the neighboring "sanctions" topic, the thought is constantly repeated that dear Russians are ready for any sacrifices for the sake of victory for the Roselites in the war against the Pindo-Gay Europeans. And actually for what?

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Vladimir Sukhoi

wanting to jump on a social network

This is when the social network is. And if you cancel? Here everyone will have to create surplus value.
"The economy is the work of everyone, figure it out yourself" (Tatiana Tolstaya, "Kys")

Quote: Vladimir Sukhoi

And actually for what?

And so that the skin is not lowered. In a literal sense.

[Cherry Nine]

Quote: Vladimir Sukhoi

In the modern world, not every two-legged one creates surplus value. Such a minority and the number of generators of surplus value are rapidly and steadily decreasing. The number of people wishing to jump on a social network is growing at approximately the same pace.

Did they tell you during robotics trainings?
In the USA, Germany, Japan, unemployment is at minimum. Switzerland banned basic income in a referendum not so long ago.

Quote: Vladimir Sukhoi

In the discussion of the neighboring "sanctions" topic, the thought is constantly repeated that dear Russians are ready for any sacrifices for the sake of victory.

Naturally ready. In fact, no one will ask them.

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: Cherry Nine

Did they tell you during robotics trainings?

Why did they cancel the robotics? How did I miss such an important event.

Quote: Cherry Nine

In the USA, Germany, Japan, unemployment is at minimum.

Continuous great egein? And why is it then a trade war, as at the beginning of the last century with a quiet slide to the third world?

Quote: Cherry Nine

Naturally ready. In fact, no one will ask them.

So they may not ask as a result. And those who have time to escape will again have to memorize memoirs about the wrong people and other agents of the German headquarters in the intervals between mopping and taxation.
Just a solid deja vu some.

[yehat]

Labor, as Marx teaches us

if at least a quarter of the population of the USSR knew the work of Marx, then he would not have fallen apart.

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: yehat

if at least a quarter of the population of the USSR knew the work of Marx, then he would not have fallen apart.

How to know.
In the 60s, the leadership of the Union was really afraid of a repeat of 1905. If the people had read Marx more, they would have gained class consciousness and realized class interests, probably would have exploded. Although in the same 1905 they realized without Marx, spontaneously, so to speak.

[Vladimir Sukhoi]

All these cartoon wonders are a whim of the authorities, mired in fantasies of world domination. On horses and on horseback attack on enemy machine guns! That is right. Extra need to be disposed of somehow.

[Setrac]

Quote: Narak-zempo

Now they are slowly returning to this scheme: pension reform, educational, medical, VAT increase, etc.

It’s just the opposite, all these systems - pension, social, etc. - lead to a decrease in the birth rate and in no way correlate with your

Quote: Narak-zempo

After all, as it was in the old days - the peasantry and grain grew for export (when there was no oil yet), and they paid taxes and provided recruits, while not a penny went to the treasury.

[kig]

And why did everyone lean on Borisov? Does he personally determine what the army needs and what not? Shouldn't admiral generals do this?

[Peter Smith]

Quote from vvnab

Quote: g1washntwn

Quote: meandr51

By the way, the concept of "throwing cheap hats" during the Second World War fully justified itself

26,6 million dead......

Why not 100 or 200?
You do not confuse demographic losses with the battle! ~ 8.5 million Soviet soldiers died, and the Third Reich and its allies ~ 7.2. And enough of this liberal nonsense to spread the inconceivable losses!

The military historian from Freiburg R. Overmans published the book “German War Losses in World War II,” Overmans claims that the irretrievable losses of the German army amounted to 5,3 million people.
Here it is training, discipline and technology that reduce combat losses.

[Jerk]

Let's have an example. Does it make sense for officials to transfer to racing ferari-lamborghini? They’re better - faster! And officials will get to work faster. No? Because it is unreasonably expensive? Well, here the situation is the same. Where could Armats have been applied since development? Yes, ANYWHERE! In Syria, ours on earth, in tanks, it seems, they don’t fight. there were no tank battles in the Crimea. And it turns out that Almaty just - there would be money thrown out.
The development of Armat and Su-57 is necessary - at least in order to keep up with the train, experienced parties are needed. But serial production - here it should be considered financiers.
And there is no need to fan the hysteria. This is a completely normal situation, as it is everywhere and often. Look, for example, the United States, with its budget, has just abandoned "smart" grenade launchers, having learned that it is necessary to throw out 2,5 lard in addition to the already vbuhany money. They didn't pull. But hysteria is not to be seen.

[Vadim237]

Yes, the point here is mostly not in finances, but in the fact that the Su 57 is already a morally obsolete fifth generation machine, its ally - F 22 went into production in 1997, and the Su 57 almost does not surpass the Su 35 - maneuverability is the same, the armament is the same and the same, until the year 2030 the sixth generation will take to the wing. At the time of T 14, UVZ is already creating a robotic tank.

[marline]

Quote: Vadim237

... until the year 2030, the sixth generation will rise to the wing ...

And on Mars apple trees will bloom !!!

[Vadim237]

This is to the Mask, on Mars, its transport system until the 30th year - just sit down.

[Yak28]

When the Su-57 enters the series, and at least a couple of hundred such aircraft are delivered to the troops, it will already be obsolete, the Su-57 project should be turned off altogether, this is the airplane of yesterday. The T-14 looks fresher, I wonder how it will show itself in battle, will it withstand the blows of enemy anti-tank guns or not?

[mashinist]

Yes, stop panicking people не not so long ago we had a shortage of pilots under Serdyukov ... to whom to give an expensive sou 57 now give time.
The situation with the tanks is rather different in the production that needs to be built up ... and who is going to attack us tomorrow already? And by the time the West has increased its contingent in Europe that can really threaten us, we will already have new equipment in sufficient quantities, but + t72 will be second-tier tanks.

[Errr]

Without domestic microelectronics, not a single fairy tale will come true.