Military Review

Great split. Price confrontation

147
In 1971, in Moscow, a significant event took place that was hardly noticed and practically not covered in the Soviet press. By the Council of the Russian Orthodox Church, the old Russian (schismatic) rituals were officially recognized as “equal” new. Thus, the last page of the centuries-old confrontation of Orthodox Orthodox Christians and Old Believers was finally closed. The confrontation, which did not bring glory to any of the parties, and which cost the people of Russia very dearly. What are the reasons for the split of the church in our country and was it possible to avoid it?


Great split. Price confrontation

The temple bell tower of the Old Believer Church at Rogozhskaya Gate


Usually it is said that unscrupulous copyists distorted the data of church books, and Nikon’s reform restored “true” Orthodoxy. This is partly true, because from the pen of some ancient Russian copyists, in fact, many “apocryphs”, unknown to the world, have come out. In one of these “Gospels”, in the story of the birth of Christ, besides the traditional biblical characters, the character turns out to be some kind of midwife Solomonia. At the same time, it was proved that under Vladimir Svyatoslavich, the Russians were baptized with two fingers, used eight-pointed crosses, special alleluia, while performing rites went "after the sun" (by the sun), etc. The fact is that in the era of the Christianization of Russia in Byzantium, two statutes were used: Jerusalem and Studii. The Russians adopted the Studite Charter, and in all other Orthodox countries, the Jerusalem of Jerusalem prevailed over time: in the 12th century, it was accepted on Athos, by the beginning of the 14th century - in Byzantium, then - in the South Slavic churches. Thus, in the 17th century, Russia remained the only Orthodox state, the church of which used the Studite Charter. Thanks to pilgrims, the discrepancy between the Greek and Russian liturgical books was known long before Nikon. Already at the end of 1640, the need to correct the “mistakes” was widely discussed in the court circle of “adherents of ancient piety”, which included, in addition to Nikon, the priest of the Annunciation Cathedral, Stefan Vonifatev, the protopop of the Kazan Cathedral, Ivan Nero, and even Avvakum from Yuryevets who became famous - Volga. The controversy was mainly about what is to be considered a model of “ancient piety”: the decisions of the 1551 Hundred Chapters Council or exclusively Greek texts. Nikon, who came to power in 1652, made a choice in favor of Greek designs.


Patriarch Nikon


One of the reasons for the urgent correction of church books was the news of pilgrim Arseny Sukhanov that the monks of all Greek monasteries gathered on Mount Athos allegedly conciliarly recognized the two-feathers as heresy and not only burned Moscow books that printed about him, but even wanted to burn the old man, whose books have been found. No confirmation of the truth of this incident has been found either in other Russian sources or abroad. However, this message terribly worried Nikon. The letter found by the Eastern Patriarchs regarding the approval of the Patriarchate in Russia of 1593 in the book depository contained the requirement to follow the charters “without any application or withdrawal”. And Nikon was well aware that there was a discrepancy between the Symbol of Faith written in Greek and brought to Moscow by Metropolitan Photius the Symbol of Faith, the holy liturgy and the Servant and the Moscow books of his day. Why did the deviations from the Orthodox Greek canon disturb Nikon so much? The fact is that since the time of the famous Elizarov Monastery (which is in the Pskov Region) Philotheus, who proclaimed the moral fall of the world and the transformation of Moscow into the Third Rome, the dream of a time when Russia and the Russian Orthodox were subconscious of the Russian tsars and high hierarchs of the church The Church will gather under its hand the Orthodox Christians of the whole world.


Prayer of the monk Philotheus of the Third Rome


And now, when with the return of Smolensk, Left-Bank Ukraine, and part of the Belarusian lands, this dream seemed to take on a concrete shape, there was a danger of themselves not being enough Orthodox. Nikon shared his concerns with Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich, who fully endorsed his plans, correct the “mistakes” made by his predecessors, revealing to the world complete agreement of Russia with the Greek Church and the Eastern Patriarchs, and endowed the patriarch with unprecedented powers.



Since Jerusalem in Palestine had long been lost, the New Jerusalem was created near the Third Rome, with the Resurrection Monastery near the city of Istra becoming the center. The hill on which construction began was called the mountain Zion, the Istra River the Jordan, and one of its tributaries the Kedron. In the vicinity appeared Mount Tabor, Gethsemane Garden, Bethany. The main cathedral was built on the model of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, but not according to the drawings, but according to the stories of pilgrims. The result was very curious: it was not a copy that was built, but a kind of fantasy on a given topic, and we can now see this Jerusalem temple through the eyes of 17th-century Russian masters.


Church of the Resurrection (Holy Sepulcher), Jerusalem



Resurrection Cathedral, New Jerusalem



Tomb of Christ, Temple of the Resurrection (Holy Sepulcher), Jerusalem



Tomb of Christ, Resurrection Monastery, New Jerusalem


But let us return to 1653 in the year in which, before the onset of Lent, Nikon sent “Memory” to all Moscow churches, in which from now on they ordered to put not numerous bows during the service, but to bow to the belt in three were baptized. ” The first spark of the great fire ran through the Moscow churches: many said that the patriarch of the truly Orthodox had been seduced into heresy by the unsettled Uniate Arseny the Greek, the patriarch of the true Orthodox who was cursed by the Metropolitan Cyprian to force Pskov to return to the two-feathers. Understanding the danger of a new turmoil, Nikon and Alexei Mikhailovich tried to crush dissatisfaction on the vine with repression. Many dissenters were beaten with whips and exiled to remote monasteries, among them the archpriest of Kazan Cathedral Avvakum and Ivan Neronov, Kostroma archpriest Danilo.

“By fire and whip, but the gallows they want to establish faith! Which apostles taught like that? I do not know. My Christ did not order our apostles to teach in this way, ”then the archpriest Avvakum later said, and it is difficult not to agree with him.


HELL. Kivshenko. Patriarch Nikon proposes new liturgical books


In the spring of 1654, Nikon tried to eliminate disagreements at the Church Council. It was attended by 5 Metropolitans, 4 Archbishop, 1 Bishop, 11 Archimandrites and Hegumen, and 13 Protopopes. The questions before them were, in general, secondary and unprincipled and did not allow for the possibility of negative answers. The top hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church could not, and did not want, openly declare their disagreement with the statutes approved by the Ecumenical Patriarchs and the great Teachers of the Church on such insignificant reasons as: should the Royal Gates be left open from the beginning of the liturgy until the great march? Or is it possible to be allowed to sing on the ambo of bigwigs? And only two main and fundamental questions did not bring Nikon's hierarchs to the discussion: on replacing triplets with two-feathers and replacing bows with waist. The plan of the patriarch was wise and in his own way ingenious: to announce to the whole country that ALL the innovations recommended by him were approved by the council of the country's highest hierarchs and therefore are binding for all churches of Russia. This cunning combination was upset by Bishop of Kolomna and Kashirsky Pavel, who, having signed the Council Code, made the reservation that he remained to his mind regarding earthly bows. Nikon's anger was terrible: Paul was deprived of his dignity not only for the bishop, but also for the priestly, taken to Novgorod lands and burned in an empty house. Such a zeal Nikon surprised even some foreign patriarchs.

“I see from the letters of your superiority that you strongly complain about disagreement in some ceremonies ... and you think whether various ceremonies harm our faith,” Patriarch Paisius of Constantinople wrote to Nikon, “But we correct the fear, for we have the apostle’s command to run only heretics and the wranglers, who, although they seem to agree with the Orthodox in the main tenets, have their own special teachings, alien to the common belief of the Church. But if any church happens to split apart from others in some statutes that are not necessary and not essential in faith, such as: the time of serving the liturgy or what fingers a priest should bless, then this does not make any separation between believers, if only one thing is immutable the same faith. "


But Nikon did not want to hear Paisius, and at the 1656 Cathedral, he, with the blessing of the Patriarch of Antioch who was present there, and the Metropolitan of Serbia excommunicated everyone who was performing a two-word baptism. However, in 1658, the situation suddenly changed. A number of historians believe that in the documents of those years there are data that indirectly indicate that Nikon at that time tried to curtail his reforms and restore the unity of the Russian church. He not only reconciled with Ivan Neronov who was exiled to him, but even allowed him to conduct services for the old books. And it is precisely at this time that cooling takes place between Nikon and Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich, who ceases to invite the patriarch, does not come to the services he holds and forbids him to continue to be called the great sovereign. Some historians are inclined to believe that such a cooling of the tsar against the irreplaceable patriarch yesterday happened precisely because of his attempts to flirt with the schismatics, and not because of Nikon's proud and independent behavior.


Alexey Mikhailovich Romanov, Museum Kolomenskoye


While carrying out his reforms, Nikon essentially embodied the ideas of the king, who continued to claim primacy in the Orthodox world and believed that the use of the Studio statute could alienate co-religionists from other countries from Russia. The curtailing of church reforms was not included in the king’s plans, and therefore the laudatory verses of Simeon of Polotsk seemed to Alexei Mikhailovich more important than the attempts of Nikon to realize his mistakes to establish religious peace in the country.


Simeon of Polotsk


The end came 10 July 1658, when after the service in the Assumption Cathedral Nikon announced his desire to leave the post of patriarch. He took off his miter, omophorion, sakkos and, wearing a black robe "with sources" (that is, a bishop) and a black hood, went to the Holy Monastery on the White Sea. In February, by the decision of Alexei Mikhailovich, a new Council was assembled in 1660, which for 6 months decided what to do with the rebellious patriarch. In the end, the steward of Pushkin was sent to my White, who in March 1661 brought Nikon's answer:

“I was given a miter by the Ecumenical Patriarchs, and it is impossible to entrust the Metropolitan with a patriarch. I left the throne, but did not leave the bishop ... How can I put the newly elected patriarch without me? If the sovereign deigns me to be in Moscow, then by the decree of his newly elected patriarch, I will deliver and, accepting from the sovereign gracious forgiveness, saying goodbye to the bishops and blessing everyone, I will go to the monastery. ”


It should be recognized that the arguments of Nikon were very logical, and his position is quite reasonable and peaceful. But for some reason, a compromise with the rebellious patriarch was not part of Aleksey Mikhailovich’s plans. To prepare the official removal of Nikon, he entrusted Paisius Ligarid, the 1662-city, who arrived to Moscow in February, to a man who was deprived of the dignity of the Metropolitan of the Forerunner Monastery for his connection with Catholic Rome, who was accused by Patriarch Dosifey in relations with such heretics who are neither alive nor in Jerusalem. of the dead ”, cursed in Jerusalem and Constantinople, anathematized by the ecumenical patriarchs Parthenius II, Methodius, Paisius and Nectarios. For the trial of Nikon, this international adventurer invited the deposed Antioch patriarchs Macarius and Alexandria of Paisius to Moscow. To give the court the appearance of legality, Alexei Mikhailovich had to send rich gifts to the Turkish sultan, who met Moscow and met firms at a reasonable price to return the chairs to the retired patriarchs. In the future, this trio of impostors turned the case so that they should judge not the Nikon, but the Russian Church that had evaded Orthodoxy. Not content with Nikon's overthrow, they condemned and cursed the decisions of the Stoglav Cathedral, accusing of “ignorance and recklessness” not of anyone, but of the saint and wonderworker Macarius, who created “Chety of Minea”. And the 1667 Cathedral, which was held under the leadership of the same Macarius and Paisius, openly called non-Orthodox all (!) Of the saints of the Russian Church. Pretending to be Caesar of the Third Rome, Alexei Mikhailovich had to endure this humiliation. With great difficulty, the impostors managed to be expelled from Russia. According to eyewitnesses, the damage caused by their stay in Moscow was comparable with the enemy invasion. Their wagons filled with furs, expensive fabrics, precious goblets, church utensils and many other gifts stretched almost a mile away. Paisius Ligarid, who did not want to leave voluntarily, was forced into a wagon in 1672 and drove right under guard to Kiev. They left behind a worried, restless, and split country into two irreconcilable camps.


Miloradovich S.D. "The trial of Patriarch Nikon"


The beginning of the persecution of the Old Believers gave the country two recognized (even by their opponents) martyrs: the archpriest Avvakum and the boyfriend Morozov. The charm of the personality of these irreconcilable fighters for "ancient piety" is so great that they became heroes of numerous paintings by Russian artists. Avvakum in 1653 was exiled to Siberia for 10 years.


S.D. Miloradovich. "Avvakum's journey through Siberia"


He was then sent to Pustozersk, where he spent years in an earthen prison.


V.E.Nesterov, "Protopop Avvakum"


The Life of Avvakum, written by him, made such an impression on readers, and became so significant a work that some even call him the founder of Russian literature. After Avvakum was burned in Pustozersk in 1682, Old Believers began to venerate him as a martyr.


G. Myasoedov. "The burning of Avvakum", 1897


In Avvakum's homeland, in the village of Grigorovo (Nizhny Novgorod region), a monument was erected to him: an unbroken protopop lifts two fingers above his head - a symbol of ancient piety.


Protopop Avvakum, a monument in the village of Grigorovo


The supreme palace noblewoman Feodosiya Prokofievna Morozova became a hot fan of Avvakum, with whom “about three hundred men served at home. The peasants were 8000; there are many friends and relatives; traveled in an expensive carriage arranged in mosaic and silver, in six or twelve horses with thundering chains; behind her went a hundred servants, slaves and slaves, protecting her honor and health. ” From all this she refused in the name of her faith.


P. Ossovsky, triptych "Raskolniki", fragment


In 1671, she, along with her sister, Evdokia Urusova, was arrested and shackled, initially in the Miracle Monastery, then in Pskovo-Pechersky. Despite the intercession of relatives, and even Patriarch Pitirim and the sisters of Tsar Irina Mikhailovna, the sisters of Morozov and Urusov were imprisoned in the earthen prison of Borovsky prison, where they both died from exhaustion in 1675.


Borovsk, a chapel on the supposed place of death of the boyar Morozova


The famous Spaso-Preobrazhensky Solovetsky Monastery rebelled against the new service books.


S.D. Miloradovich. "Black Cathedral. Rise of the Solovetsky Monastery against the new books in 1666 year"


From 1668 to 1676. the siege of the ancient monastery continued, ending with betrayal, the death of 30 monks in an unequal battle with the archers and the execution of 26 monks. The survivors were imprisoned in the Kola and Pustoozersky prison. The massacre of the rebellious monks shook even a lot of foreign mercenaries who had left their memories of this disgraceful campaign.


The massacre of the participants of the Solovki uprising


Imperial ambitions cost dearly to both the patriarch who started the reform and the monarch who actively supported them. Aleksei Mikhailovich’s great power policy collapsed in the very near future: defeat in the war with Poland, the uprisings of Vasily Us, Stepan Razin, the monks of the Solovki monastery, the copper revolt and fires in Moscow, the death of his wife and three children, among whom was the heir to the throne Alexei , knocked down the health of the monarch. The birth of Peter I was marked by the first massive self-immolations of Old Believers, the peak of which fell on 1679, when 1700 splitters burned in Tobolsk alone.


Myasoedov G., “Self-immolation of dissenters”


It seems unbelievable, but, according to a number of historians, during the life of Alexei Mikhailovich and Nestor, the struggle against the Old Believers claimed more Russian lives than the war with Poland or the uprising of Stepan Razin. The efforts of the “Quietest” Tsar to “legally” remove the departed from Moscow, but who refused to resign as Patriarch Nikon, led to unheard-of humiliations not only of the Russian Orthodox Church, but also of the Russian state. Alexei Mikhailovich was dying scary:

“I was relaxed before death, and before that the judgment of that was condemned, and tortured before endless torments.”


It seemed to him that the Solovki monks were rubbing his body with saws and scary, the dying king cried to the whole palace, imploring him in moments of enlightenment:

“My Lord, the fathers of Solovki, the elders! Freaking off, let me repent of my theft, supposedly I have unjustly done, rejected the Christian faiths, playing, crucified Christ ... and bowed to your Solovetsky monastery ”.


The commanders who had besieged the Solovki monastery were ordered to return home, but the messenger was late for a week.

Nikon still won a moral victory over his royal adversary. Having survived Alexey Mikhailovich on 5 years, he died in Yaroslavl, returning from exile, and was buried as a patriarch in the Resurrection New Jerusalem Monastery founded by him.



And the religious persecutions of dissidents, unprecedented in Russia until then, not only did not subside with the death of their ideologues and inspirers, but gained special strength. A few months after Nikon’s death, a decree was issued to bring the schismatics to the civil court and the destruction of the Old Believers deserts, and a year later, the violent Protopop Avvakum was burned in Pustozersk. In the future, the hardening of the parties only increased.
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  1. wooja
    wooja 15 August 2018 06: 23
    +16
    your deeds are wonderful ... A good article, sensibly ... 350 years have passed ... That's how historical mines are laid ... yes, the scale is impressive ... the author gave a good idea ... the reasons for the abolition of the patriarchate by the Romanovs became somewhat clear, the hostility of the Old Believers to the dynasties and their role in the revolution, the Bolsheviks are just angels compared to the Romanovs, the church still has not recovered and is unlikely to ever recover from the split and its consequences ...., it’s very sad and really painful and insulting ..., with this the tragedy of the church and faith in Russia is understandable, thanks to the author.
    1. Cat
      Cat 15 August 2018 08: 00
      +11
      Seriously, the expected and well-developed, albeit ambiguous, article by Valery Ryzhev.
      Ate honestly, I liked the author's balanced position, although I was sure of his sympathy or even commitment to one of the parties to the conflict.
      For reference. The Russian Empire has repeatedly looked for ways to try on with the Old Believers. One of these reforms was the appearance of temples where it was allowed to perform both rites. For example, in Yekaterinburg.
      1. Hoc vince
        Hoc vince 15 August 2018 08: 06
        +4
        "... repeatedly sought ways of reconciliation with the Old Believers ..."
        And he continues to search :,
        • In 2000, when there was a jubilee Council of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad - it was led by Metropolitan Vitaly Ustinov - a decision was made by the Council of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, signed by all the bishops. And in this decision they apologized among the Old Believers for those persecutions that were against them, because when it comes to reconciliation, one of the parties should begin this reconciliation.
        • On January 12, 2012, for the first time in three and a half centuries, with the blessing of His Holiness Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Kirill, the bishop’s Divine Liturgy was held by the ancients in the walls of the Patriarchal Assumption Cathedral of the Moscow Kremlin pre-split rank, which was headed by Metropolitan of Krutitsky and Kolomna Juvenal.
        Maybe we really come to an agreement?
        1. Cat
          Cat 15 August 2018 08: 16
          +3
          Hmm, part of the comment has disappeared!
          For example, Holy Trinity Cathedral.

          That's what they write about him in the diocese itself.
          Holy Trinity Cathedral (Ryazanovskaya Church) is a functioning Orthodox church in Yekaterinburg.
          Stone single-throne cathedral in the style of classicism. From history: Initially, from 1818 it was founded as a single-faith tripartite church. The construction was carried out at the expense of the merchant Y. V. Ryazanov. The right border in the name of St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople was consecrated on November 12, 1839. The left border in the name of St. Nicholas, Archbishop of Mipikli, was consecrated on October 13, 1849. The main church in honor of the Holy Trinity, was consecrated on May 13, 1852. In 1854 A stone belfry is attached. In 1922, as a result of the actions of the Bolsheviks, 10 pounds 26 pounds 5 spools of silver (174,4 kg.) Were seized. From 1928 until the closure in the church there were particles of the relics of four saints: the prophet John the Baptist, the first martyr Stephen, the great martyr Jacob Persianin, martyr. Mercury of Smolensky, embedded in a metal cancer. It was completely closed in 1930. The domes and the bell tower were demolished. And only in 1996 was returned to the church. In 1997, the altar apse was increased. In 1998 - 1999 re-erected dome drums. In 2000, the bell tower was re-built. Consecrated by Patriarch Alexy II on September 24, 2000
          1. Cat
            Cat 15 August 2018 13: 40
            +9
            After lunch, I read the comments on the article and I felt sad. Guys, what are we doing? The author of his article made it possible to find common ground, understand each other, just try to hear! And we, as the respected Beaver aptly noted, "arranged a dump for dogs"!
            What for? For what?
            For the triumph of your idea as the only true one? Dear forum users, is it really worth it to covertly insult Mikhail (Master Trilobit), Mordvin 3 (alas, I don’t remember the name of the participant, but I still have not figured out the new interface), etc.
            Yes, this is a significant problem and we will always be discussing it to cross spears, but why pour blood each other.
            Damn, I apologize for the plagiarism, but I have no words, except for the Cat Leopold "friends, let's live together!" Let's learn to hear not only ourselves but also others !!!
            Regards, Sincerely Your Cat!
        2. Boris55
          Boris55 15 August 2018 08: 31
          -8
          Quote: Hoc vince
          Maybe we really come to an agreement?

          Unlikely. Christianity is not Orthodoxy, no matter what clothes it dresses.

          From ancient times, Pav-Slavic and right-winged and other believers peacefully lived in Russia. There was no enmity between us by faith. God was alone, but each clan had its patron (as Ilya the Prophet the patron of the Airborne Forces today) handicrafts them and everyone respected them since on how much grain will be degraded, how much livestock will be, or how many fish will be caught, it depends on how varied their table will be.

          Christians, having elevated our patrons (prophets) to the rank of various Gods, divided us and set us against each other ...
          1. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin 15 August 2018 09: 02
            +15
            Quote: Boris55
            From ancient times, Pav-Slavic and right-winged and other believers peacefully lived in Russia.

            Dear Boris, forgive me for my harshness, but ANYWHERE, in any source — neither Russian, nor foreign — there is not the slightest mention of people who, living before the Baptism of Russia, would call themselves that. From the word “completely”, understand? What you are talking about are the inventions of the late Soviet “education”, which, frightened by the revival of church life and in the late 80s, began to actively promote neopagan projects based on fragmentary information about ancient Russia and supplemented by their own violent imagination.
            Quote: Boris55
            Christians, having elevated our patrons (prophets) to the rank of various Gods,

            Rave. Christians believe and glorify one God — the One in the Holy Trinity, that is, God — is one in essence, but manifests Himself in three persons (hypostases). All the same, Christian authors write about this — from Tertullian to Pavel Florensky and Paisius Svyatogorets. I will tell you honestly, I am not particularly strong in theology, so if you need a more detailed explanation, you can turn to Orthodox apologetic literature. Or write me in a personal, I’ll write links to books there. And for the purposes of this discussion I will only say that Christians have no gods, but only one God, therefore your statement directly contradicts reality.
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 15 August 2018 09: 31
              -4
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              Rave. Christians believe and glorify one God — the One in the Holy Trinity, that is, God — is one in essence, but manifests Himself in three persons (hypostases).

              The trinity of the world was known long before the advent of Christianity. So in Orthodoxy there is: rule, reality and Nav.

              It is recognized that the founder of the Slavic Faith is the Russian philosopher Dazhbo, who lived long before Christianity.

              Rule - there is a single integral complex of laws of development of the Universe and all that exists, subject only to the One God.
              Reality - the world that people are able to feel with their senses and manifest it in their minds.
              Nav - a world that exists in nature, but not accessible to our perception.

              Triglav "Prav-Yav-Nav" is nothing but an ancient analogue of the modern trinity "Measure-Matter-Information".

              And also: Sephar, Sipur and Sefer. And also: Amun, no, nave, sebek. If interested - in the internet you will find without much ore.
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 15 August 2018 09: 48
                +9
                Dear Boris, please return to the real world!
                Quote: Boris55
                The trinity of the world was known long before the advent of Christianity. So in Orthodoxy there is: rule, reality and Nav.

                In Orthodoxy there is no question of a certain trinity of peace. Nowhere, none of the Christian theologians speak of anything like this. About God - yes, but about the world - no.
                Quote: Boris55
                Russian philosopher Dazhbo

                About which for some reason until the zero years of the 21st century it was never heard ... wink
                Quote: Boris55
                Triglav "Prav-Yav-Nav"

                It is not found in any of the written or oral sources of Ancient Russia. Neither in epics, nor in legends, nor in annals, nor in church teachings against paganism and heresies. Nowhere. But in the remake of the 90s, this phrase was used more than actively.
                1. Boris55
                  Boris55 15 August 2018 09: 55
                  -4
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  It is not found in any of the written or oral sources of Ancient Russia.

                  Looks are not looking there. The Romanovs did their best to destroy everything connected with Christian Russia, but their hand did not reach foreign sources. Iranian and Tevbet Vedas to help you. hi
                  1. Lieutenant Teterin
                    Lieutenant Teterin 15 August 2018 10: 14
                    +5
                    Quote: Boris55
                    The Romanovs did their best to destroy everything connected with pre-Christian Russia,

                    In your case, the Romanovs turn out to be a mega-corporation of conspirators stronger than the legendary Masons, Jesuits, Amon priests and reptilians combined. Judge for yourself: the mass destruction of written sources is still possible, but oral sources cannot be destroyed without the liquidation of their carriers. And here all the people are the carriers. Yes, and it is unrealistic to destroy information transmitted orally with the resistance of its carriers. An example of this is the situation with the Polish language in the 19th century. On the territory of Austria and Russia, there were attempts to prohibit the Poles from learning their native language - schools were closing down, textbooks were being destroyed, punishment for learning the language was introduced .... and you know, it didn’t help. People still retained their language and oral culture.
                    Quote: Boris55
                    but their hand did not reach foreign sources. Iranian and Tevbet Vedas to help you.

                    Forgive me, but I somehow do not remember in the Avesta mentions of some "righteous" in the north. And European and Arab sources are also silent about them. hi
              2. Weyland
                Weyland 15 August 2018 23: 30
                -1
                Quote: Boris55

                Rule - there is a single integral complex of laws of development of the Universe and all that exists, subject only to the One God.
                Reality - the world that people are able to feel with their senses and manifest it in their minds.
                Nav - a world that exists in nature, but not accessible to our perception.
                .

                Why then not Trimurti - Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu with his kings Krishna and Rama? laughing Already such a scoundrel as Krishna, in which religion you will find few ...
          2. Sweetheart
            Sweetheart 15 August 2018 10: 30
            +8
            Quote: Boris55
            Christians, having elevated our patrons (prophets) to the rank of various Gods, divided us and set us against each other ...

            Boris, are you again trying to give the Kobov heresy to the rank of truth?
            It’s hard for you to recognize the fact-the key to the construction of the Power — one faith, and not a bunch of tribal gods.
            Why is it clear to me, an atheist, but it is not clear to you a witness to the BER sect?
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 15 August 2018 10: 57
              -3
              Quote: The Swordsman
              Why is it clear to me, an atheist, but to you ... is it not clear?

              I wonder why it is not clear to you under what banner Catholics are fighting with us (USA, West)? And why they will not rest until we all become Catholics (see Ukraine).

              Previously, there was one God for all, and each had their own patron of their crafts. Go to church, see how many different icons there are worshiped by different people. Can we say that we have polytheism? No, but our faith has become separate and opposed to all others, just as other faiths are opposed to us.

              A variety of beliefs were imposed on humanity by the surviving Antistatic to rule over us. Each faith contains irreconcilable truths, the activation of which leads to the incitement of hatred (for example, French caricatures of the prophet).
              1. Sweetheart
                Sweetheart 15 August 2018 11: 05
                +3
                Quote: Boris55
                I wonder why it is not clear to you under what banner Catholics are fighting with us (USA, West)? And why they will not rest until we all become Catholics (see Ukraine).

                Catholics? Is that all right? And especially the Anglicans of England and US Catholic protestants?
                Ukraine .. uniates, yes. Fell as a result of Polish influence under the Vatican, but how many uniates are there?
                Quote: Boris55
                Previously, there was one God for all, and each had their own patron of their crafts. Go to church, see how many different icons there are worshiped by different people.

                And what? Orthodoxy adapted the local gods to their saints, why are you casting a shadow on the fence?
                Quote: Boris55
                A variety of beliefs were imposed on humanity by the surviving Antistatic to rule over us. Each faith contains irreconcilable truths, the activation of which leads to the incitement of hatred (for example, French caricatures of the prophet).

                again, the Kobov nonsense ... I already cited as an example your Kobov rattle, one of your ideoluh, that's where the obscurantism alloy with direct dope ...
                Cartoonists Charlie Ebdo are morally and spiritually empty people. The product of Western civilization, humanization, the product of understanding liberalism as an absolute.
                Quote: Boris55
                Every faith has irreconcilable truths

                What are the "irreconcilable" in the Bible and the Koran?
                1. Boris55
                  Boris55 15 August 2018 11: 51
                  -1
                  Quote: The Swordsman
                  What are the "irreconcilable" in the Bible and the Koran?

                  At least the fact that the Koran does not recognize the prophets as Gods, incl. and Jesus, that the Koran does not recognize his crucifixion, that the loan interest is prohibited in the Koran, etc. ...

                  Quote: The Swordsman
                  Cartoonists Charlie Ebdo are morally and spiritually empty people.

                  It means that you have recognized the presence of such "pain points". This makes me happy. laughing
                  1. Sweetheart
                    Sweetheart 15 August 2018 14: 03
                    +4
                    Quote: Boris55
                    At least the fact that the Koran does not recognize the prophets as Gods, incl. and Jesus, that the Koran does not recognize his crucifixion, that the loan interest is prohibited in the Koran, etc. ...

                    And in the Bible where is it recognized?
                    Wonderful Surahs about Christ (from the Koran translation in Russian)

                    Surah 19:15. Peace be upon him on the day he was born, and on the day when he dies, and on the day when he will be resurrected alive! sixteen . And remember in the scripture from Maryam. So she retired from her family to the east 16. and made a veil for herself before them. We sent Our spirit to her, and he took on the guise of a perfect man before her. eighteen . She said: "I seek protection from you in the Most Merciful, if you fear God." 17 . He said: "I am only a messenger of your Lord to give you a pure boy." 18 . She said: "How can I have a boy? A man did not touch me, and I was not a libertine." 19. He said, "So said your Lord:" It is easy for Me. And We will make it a sign for people and Our mercy. "The matter is decided." 20. And she carried him away and withdrew with him to a distant place.
                    Sura 5: 110. Allah will say: "O Isa, son of Maryam! Remember my mercy to you and your parent, how I strengthened you with the holy spirit. You spoke with people in the cradle and adults. And now I taught you the scriptures, wisdom, Torah, the Gospel, and now You made out of clay the likeness of birds with My permission and blew on them, and they became birds with My permission, and you tormented the dead with My permission. And so I kept the sons of Israel from you when you came to them with clear signs. And they said those who did not believe among them: “This is only obvious witchcraft!” 111. And so I inspired the apostles: “Believe in Me and in My messenger!” They said: “We believed, testify that we have surrendered!”

                    Picked up places from Sur Poddelsky Yuri Pavlovich

                    Quoted from the site below

                    Website: www.blagoslovi7.narod.ru
                  2. Sweetheart
                    Sweetheart 15 August 2018 14: 18
                    +2
                    Quote: Boris55
                    It means that you have recognized the presence of such "pain points". This makes me happy

                    Another guruvam of yours would heal his "pain points".
                    Zaznobin Vladimir Mikhailovich - the most famous theoretician of the BER, he is also the USSR VP. It is distinguished by incoherent oral speech, no less incoherent presentation of thoughts and on paper, with a heap of numerous terms in order to increase the meaning of what was said. He speaks as a rule not in the case, often carries complete nonsense, sufficient to recognize the case as clinical. When he begins to talk about something, he gradually translates the topic and digs into the essence of the problem to infinity does not come to any practical conclusion. Apparently, he deliberately carries nonsense, and his goal is to lead a personal sect. He does not accept criticism, reacts to the slightest aggression.


                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ot3X4Xtd36M
                2. vladcub
                  vladcub 15 August 2018 20: 28
                  +4
                  Swordsman, I do not always agree with you, but in this case: "Caricature of the socialist Charlie Ebdo is morally and spiritually empty people" I agree with you. These cartoonists have nothing sacred. They will put their mother to shame. What edge is needed, otherwise ..... TRINDER, but they are all purple
              2. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 15 August 2018 12: 36
                +3
                Quote: Boris55
                I wonder why it is not clear to you under what banner Catholics are fighting with us (USA, West)? And why they will not rest until we all become Catholics (see Ukraine).

                Boris, tell me, who, in your opinion, should be personally awarded the title of Hero of Russia for skillfully carried out special operations to introduce a schism into the Catholic Church? Could it be Malyute Skuratov? Our special services did the job, not otherwise. After all, it was not the "masters of the West" who arranged the St. Bartholomew's Night, for example? Or am I missing something?
                Count the number of victims in the religious wars of Europe, compare with the number of victims of the split in Russia. Did you not want to write out a state award for Nikon "for timely and effective preventive measures aimed at preventing religious wars and strengthening the unity of the Russian state"? Think about it. hi
                1. Boris55
                  Boris55 15 August 2018 12: 54
                  -5
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  Count the number of victims in the religious wars of Europe, compare with the number of victims of the split in Russia.

                  Do you propose to count the number of victims during the Christianization in Europe and in Russia?

                  And there and there - not measured. The genocide of the Christianization of Russia is hidden behind the myth of the Tatar-Mongol yoke, behind the genocide of the Russian people in the civil war, in the Second World War.

                  Is it enough?

                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  There was no desire to write a state award to Nikon

                  Not. Nikon ensured the informational enslavement - serfdom, which led to a huge lag in the development of Russia.
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 15 August 2018 13: 16
                    +6
                    Quote: Boris55
                    Do you propose to count the number of victims during the Christianization in Europe and in Russia?

                    Not. I offered to count
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    the number of victims in the religious wars of Europe
                    and compare them
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    with the number of victims of the split in Russia.

                    As for Christianization, so for her, Prince Vladimir, we all have to say many thanks, which, in fact, smart people do regularly. If it were not for Christianization, the fate of partially Baltic Slavs would certainly await us, partially Bulgarians — half would have become German-Catholics, like Baltic Slavs, half would have been Muslim Tatars, like Polovtsy and Bulgars.
                    So the victims, whatever they were (and they were scanty, compared with even a simple flu epidemic), were not in vain.
                    1. Boris55
                      Boris55 15 August 2018 13: 53
                      -1
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      As for Christianization, so for it to Prince Vladimir, we all have to say many thanks,

                      From me, he certainly won’t wait.

                      About Christianization - Read the Old Testament. And by the way, you are aware that no matter where Christians come, rivers of blood have been spilled everywhere. What is Europe, what is North, South America, what is Australia, Africa, what is China, what is in Russia.

                      Do you think that our ancestors just so took and abandoned the faith of their ancestors? Now are you willingly willing to give up your faith? I doubt it. Why do you think so badly about our ancestors?

                      By the way. Andrew, the first-called, not called by anyone, came to the shores of the Black Sea in the first century and reached the White Sea. Then Russia did not accept him, they crucified him on a slanting cross, on which perverts were crucified.

                      1. Weyland
                        Weyland 15 August 2018 23: 35
                        0
                        Quote: Boris55
                        Then Russia did not accept him, crucified him on an oblique cross,

                        what, right in Russia and crucified? Peloponnese Russia - it sounds!
                      2. Hoc vince
                        Hoc vince 16 August 2018 23: 52
                        +1
                        "By the way. Andrew the First-Called, not called by anyone ..."
                        Apostle Andrew was the first to respond to the call of Jesus Christ to follow Him and the first to proclaim Him as the Messiah, which is why he was called the First-Called.
                  2. Sweetheart
                    Sweetheart 15 August 2018 14: 11
                    +2
                    Quote: Boris55
                    The genocide of the Christianization of Russia is hidden behind the myth of the Tatar-Mongol yoke, behind the genocide of the Russian people in the civil war, in the Second World War.

                    Mdya ... a total defeat of mental activity from blind faith in the rubbish of adherents of KOB .. You also write that the genocide of Neanderthals Cro-Magnons is the same machinations of unknown enemies ....
                    Quote: Boris55
                    Nikon ensured the informational enslavement - serfdom, which led to a huge lag in the development of Russia.

                    Hello came ... and serfdom in the Middle Ages, in France and England. Spain and other Italy there are the same machinations of Nikon? And slavery in the Ancient World. Whose merit?
                    Mdya..KOB it’s such nonsense that you can’t find anything else in your head besides raisins and salad type salad sometimes .. don’t take it as an attempt to insult, it’s an actual comparison of the garbage that you will submit to us here ..
                    You need to quote a quote from the annals of a Kobov guru, whom any normal person would call an eccentric at least, and the maximum rules will not allow him to write a description ..
                    However ... here it is, a reference to the Kobovsky "sage"
                    KOBovsky guru Vladimir Shemshuk. Pechenegs (Pesingas) - reasonable reptiles with a dog’s head, Polovtsy - Polovtsy. The intestine was the organ of creation ... everything was done through the backside.
                    Show must go on!
                    The end of the second part. Source https://lena-malaa.livejournal.com/
                2. Proxima
                  Proxima 15 August 2018 13: 56
                  +6
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  .... There was no desire write Nikon state prize "for timely and effective preventive measures aimed at religious war prevention and strengthening the unity of the Russian state "? Think. hi

                  It’s hard to disagree. Take at least a single European country (France) and a single period of religious wars (Huguenot wars). Only killed killed about 4 million people! belay This is half the population of then-Russian !!! fellow Patriarch Nikon amid such horrific statistics is just a cute little naughty kid! recourse
        3. RUSS
          RUSS 15 August 2018 10: 10
          +4
          . In 2017, Putin unexpectedly went on a visit to the most famous center of the Old Believers - Rogozhskaya Sloboda. Being a staunch supporter of the unity of the nation, the president, apparently, decided to put an end to the centuries-old schism and try to establish a dialogue between the Russian Orthodox Church and the Old Believers. Inviting him to visit the Rogozh Spiritual Center, Metropolitan of the Russian Orthodox Old Believers Church (ROCC) Korniliy handed over to Vladimir Putin at a meeting in the Kremlin on March 16. On his part, it was primarily a gesture of politeness.

          The Old Believers could not even imagine that the head of state would indeed come to their monastery - after all, this has not happened since the split, that is, the last 350 years. Even Nicholas II, under which the decree "On strengthening the principles of religious tolerance," was issued, gladly consulted with the Old Believers (by the way, they served in his personal guard), but never visited their churches.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 15 August 2018 10: 21
            -2
            Quote: RUSS
            In 2017, Putin unexpectedly went on a visit to the most famous center of the Old Believers - Rogozhskaya Sloboda.

            So he and Kabaeva went to church. laughing
            1. RUSS
              RUSS 15 August 2018 12: 25
              0
              What is the connection between Kabaeva and the Old Believers?
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 15 August 2018 21: 34
                +2
                Quote: RUSS
                What is the connection between Kabaeva and the Old Believers?

                In the church. sad
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 15 August 2018 08: 20
        +2
        There are already appearing internal schisms among the Old Believers - a single-faith church.

        But there was also a rejection of the priesthood - "popovtsy". And what was the way out for the admirers of the old way? After all, Pavel Kolomensky was tortured.

        When they were able to come up from the White Krynitsa bishop.

        For a long time this ball can be unwound.

        In literature, by the way, Melnikov-Pechersky succeeded novels.
      3. Sweetheart
        Sweetheart 15 August 2018 17: 08
        -2
        Quote: Kotischa
        , although an ambiguous article by Valery Ryzhev.

        In addition to the article. A very reasoned view of the historian on the Christianization of Russia and why it happened.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2o59V48xL0
      4. vladcub
        vladcub 15 August 2018 18: 26
        +1
        The first attempts to use between the Old Believers and the authorities were made by Peter Ulrich-3, but it was undertaken to please the Germans, and Catherine the Great was a practical lady and, on this basis, made efforts to apply with the Old Believers.
        I recommend everyone to read Platonov: "History of Russia".
      5. avt
        avt 15 August 2018 18: 32
        -3
        Quote: Kotischa
        Seriously, the expected and well-developed, albeit ambiguous, article by Valery Ryzhev.
        Ate honestly, I liked the author's balanced position, although I was sure of his sympathy or even commitment to one of the parties to the conflict.

        wassat What hangover is she
        Quote: Kotischa
        weighted
        Yes, and impartial ??
        For the trial of Nikon, this adventurer of international scale invited the deposed Antioch Patriarchs Macarius and Paisius of Alexandria to Moscow. In order to give the court the appearance of legality, Alexei Mikhailovich had to send rich gifts to the Turkish Sultan, who went to meet Moscow and at a reasonable price sold the firmans to return the departments to the retired patriarchs.
        NOBODY did more so that a full-fledged RELIGIOUS war would not flare up in Russia, like Patriarch Macarius of Antioch. Yes, and the "deposition" of him in his absence was actually "left". Even if the rebellion of Stenka Razin had been superimposed, as in Frankia with its catholic and Huguenots, the religious component would have rushed Russia like fur inside over the bumps.
        1. Cat
          Cat 15 August 2018 20: 52
          +4
          Dear Out!
          As far as I know, the author is an ideological adherent of the Old Believer church. More than once or twice his comments prompted me to this.
          In his article, he from his position and level of knowledge tried to figure out the events of those years as much as possible and balanced. There are questions to the author, and in my comment, I directly say that the article is ambiguous.
          And where in my comments says the article is impartial?
          1. VLR
            16 August 2018 07: 49
            +4
            No, "adherent" is too strong a word. I'm an atheist. But, on the one hand, I cannot but respect the Old Believers for the courage with which they were ready to defend their beliefs, and not sympathize with them, as persecuted by the secular and church authorities. On the other hand, it must be admitted that among the Old Believers and their leaders there were obscurantists, typical psychopaths, and extremists dangerous to society. And, again, the radicalization of the schismatic movement was facilitated by the stupid and stupid policy of the authorities - both secular and ecclesiastical. In general, everything is very difficult, confusing, unambiguously declaring someone as the forces of Light, and it is impossible to declare someone as the aggels of Satan.
            1. avt
              avt 16 August 2018 08: 11
              0
              Quote: VlR
              In general, everything is very difficult, confusing, unequivocally to declare someone to be the forces of Light, and someone is not possible as the aggels of Satan.

              bully And it claims
              Quote: VlR
              I'm an atheist.

              bully What's "confusing"? The ruling dynasty legitimizes its rule by means of religion. As it actually was in Russia, right from the cardinal change of Vladimir. Well, in the whole "enlightened" Europe there are many examples. Some of the antics of the king of England from under Rore Rymsky are worth something, with the subsequent bloodletting of his daughters on a religious basis with the same purpose - to legitimize his own rule. Once again, a special thanks to Patriarch Macarius of Antioch, who ordained part of the higher clergy of Russia with his authority, thereby preventing a split to the critical point of no return - a religious war in full.
            2. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 16 August 2018 10: 21
              +2
              Quote: VlR
              unequivocally declare someone the forces of light, and someone agglome of Satan is impossible.

              As always and in everything. This sacred knowledge, unfortunately, is not available to everyone.
            3. Cat
              Cat 16 August 2018 15: 07
              +3
              Dear Valery, thanks for putting all the dots over and!
              Sorry, that little "labels" hung you, to be honest, without malice.
              Thanks again for the article !!!
              Sincerely, Kitty!
      6. Cry
        Cry 23 August 2018 07: 58
        0
        Compare with today's Russia, if history teaches us anything. Alexei Mikhailovich, as they say now, ideologically caved in under the West, and his son Peter the Great had to raise Russia to his feet. Alexei Mikhailovich The Quietest (died, it is believed, from a heart attack) corresponds to Yeltsin, and Peter the Great corresponds to Vladimir the Greatest Darkest.
    2. Bar1
      Bar1 15 August 2018 09: 11
      -7
      in general, history can not be more stupid. The king under whom there were tortures, and burning, and mass executions and uprisings was called "the quietest". This is the so-called traditional history of TI.
      The Russian people did not want to pray with two fingers, speak Jesus instead of Jesus, and for this they had to be executed, burned, hanged, chopped, and spread rot in prisons. And all just because a handful of Athos renegades decided to be baptized with three fingers instead of two, and somehow incomprehensibly convinced Alexei Mikhailovich and the patriarch to do this for the Russian people too. Can all this stream of delirium be true? of course it can’t. By the way, it is not reported that the Greek people would rebel against the decisions of the Athos consistory. Everything went smoothly, and in Russia there were mass protests and repressions against the people.
      Such articles cannot be written without interrupting the world political problems of the First Northern War, the War of Bohdan Khmelnytsky with the Lyakhs, the Razin uprising, then the uprising of the Stelts, the European wars for the Spanish crown, and colonial conquests around the world. The article does not explain anything, but only confuses everything even more, like stuffing like this - "... didn't you want to be baptized with three fingers? Execute everyone"
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 15 August 2018 11: 55
        +6
        Quote: Bar1
        The Russian people did not want to pray with two fingers, to say Jesus instead of Jesus, and for this they needed to be executed, burned, hung, chopped, spread rot in prisons. And all just because a bunch of Athonite renegades decided to be baptized with three fingers instead of two, and somehow inexplicably convinced Alexei Mikhailovich and the patriarch to do it for the Russian people too. Can this whole stream of nonsense be true?

        This one is not. But this is your own personal nonsense.
        And what is written in the article is generally true. I do not even find something to complain about. Everything is harmonious and logical, corresponds to the sources, economic and political background and is within the framework of the well-known logical systems. smile
        For those who don't understand, I explain: the concept of "Moscow is the third Rome" meant the unification of all Orthodox Christians under the patronage of the Moscow Patriarchate. The political situation, as it seemed at that time to the leaders of the Moscow state, was favorable for the implementation of these goals. Foreseeing that the unification of the Orthodox Church might face such an obstacle as the difference in rituals, it was decided to unify them, bringing the rituals practiced in the Muscovite state in line with those practiced in southern Europe. The reform was conceived without taking into account many natural (primarily ideological and political) factors, but was carried out too hastily and harshly, without preliminary ideological preparation, which led to a split.
        By the way, your message very well and vividly demonstrates the methods of propaganda used by the new Chronolians of all levels of initiation, including the supreme guru Fomenko.
        First, on the basis of the most superficial historical knowledge, literally, from a known substance and sticks (so as not to overload the contents of the cranium of the adepts), a delusional construction is invented. Then this construction is attributed to "traditional history" without any reason. Then she, accompanied by screams and hooting, with savory chomping, shamanic dances and splashing saliva, is "refuted". Having thus enjoyed his own role of the overthrower (all in white, in the middle of a hall splashed with excrement, as in a well-known anecdote), the Novokhronolozhist goes over to the role of an "enlightener", that is, he puts forward the same delusional theory presented as the ultimate truth. That's it, nothing else is needed, get out a notebook, write down new adepts, each of whom must go to the store and buy at least five Fomenko books. "Nothing personal, just business." (c) Al Capone or Otto Berman (opinions differ).
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 15 August 2018 12: 18
          0
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          This one is not. But this is your own personal nonsense.
          And what is written in the article is generally true. I do not even find anything to complain about. Everything is harmonious and logical, consistent with the sources, economic and political background, and is within the framework of well-known logical systems.


          from the point of view of trilobite, the equivalence of the events of execution for two-toedness is certainly comparable to someone who can’t raise his head and appreciate that the bushes and trees have different heights, so everything is always smooth and does not cause doubt in such entities.
          Or the tsar, who covered the whole of Russia with blood, chopping off his hands and heads, but for his two fingers received the nickname from grateful trilobites - "the quietest" - this is of course a fact "without contradictions", but only from the point of view of TI, i.e. -trilobites.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 15 August 2018 13: 04
            +2
            Quote: Bar1
            in terms of trilobite

            From the point of view of the trilobite, you, of course, know better. Apparently intellectual potentials are comparable. But I, as a master, are not very interested in his point of view on questions of history. laughing
            If we are already starting to rinse nicknames, then let me too. smile I, with your permission, will again use the technique of Fomenko and the company, it is painfully convenient for these purposes. smile
            So, Bar1 = Bar one = Bar van, "in" we discard = Oops! Hmmm ... wassat Do you really think that your opinion after that may interest someone?
            By the way, have you ever thought about the fact that the nicknames of rulers given by contemporaries give, in the first place, an idea of ​​his personal characteristics, and not just the epoch of his rule? Think about it and maybe it will come to you that Ivan Krasny was just beautiful in appearance, and did not adhere to the communist ideology, Andrei Bogolyubsky spent a lot of time in the village of Bogolyubovo, and Alexei Mikhailovich Tishaysky had a quiet, smarmy voice and did not like to yell at the whole Ivanovo one.
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 15 August 2018 13: 27
              -2
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              From the point of view of trilobite, of course, you know better. AT


              Well, this is the client who called himself so, so his own assessment of his essence, even without my hostility.
              As for the BAR, in the past it was a lexeme widespread in the space of civilization, which included toponyms, hydronyms, civilizational definitions, well-known surnames all over the world and originally all came from Russia, so to speak.
              The client’s linguistic feces are not interesting due to a weak imagination, what to speak of such an analysis if little is visible from the basement of trilobites and famous academicians, even the interchangeability of the letters _в_ and _б_ in Russian.
              Therefore, the chatter about the fact that everything is exactly in the TI is just chatter from scratch.

              Quote: Trilobite Master
              Alexei Mikhailovich Silent had a quiet insinuating voice and did not like to yell at all Ivanovo.


              can your words be confirmed by quotations of contemporaries or is this another word discourse?
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 15 August 2018 14: 02
                +1
                Quote: Bar1
                can your words be confirmed by quotations of contemporaries or is this another word discourse?

                For you, no. Tired of educating you, not a horse feed. If a normal person asks, please. Well, at the expense of "words" (well, the word! wassat ), remember how many times I have already forced you to choke on your own secretions, but everything is not enough for you. Do you like it when they dunk you?
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 15 August 2018 14: 21
                  0
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  Quote: Bar1
                  can your words be confirmed by quotations of contemporaries or is this another word discourse?

                  For you, no. Tired of educating you, not a horse feed. If a normal person asks, please. Well, at the expense of "words" (well, the word! wassat ), remember how many times I have already forced you to choke on your own secretions, but everything is not enough for you. Do you like it when they dunk you?


                  Yes, even for anyone, here I’m not only alone, if you don’t see again, well, that’s just another talk.
                  So that the words _war _ and _ slaughter_ are different words?
        2. vladcub
          vladcub 15 August 2018 18: 30
          +1
          Tribolitovich, maliciously, but true
    3. Cry
      Cry 23 August 2018 07: 53
      0
      There are comparisons with today's Russia, if history teaches us anything. Alexei Mikhailovich, as they say now, ideologically caved in under the West, and his son Peter the Great had to raise Russia to his feet. Alexei Mikhailovich The Quietest (died, it is believed, from a heart attack) corresponds to Yeltsin, and Peter the Great corresponds to Vladimir the Greatest Darkest.
  2. Andrey Sukharev
    Andrey Sukharev 15 August 2018 06: 32
    +5
    The schismatics did not "burn themselves", they were burned alive in log cabins on the orders of Princess Sophia. See 12 articles by Sophia
    1. Cat
      Cat 15 August 2018 08: 21
      +3
      Do not be so categorical!
      In search of the "Ships" in the "kingdom of the Lord" the Old Believers themselves also put their hand. As the Author writes, in Tobolsk alone, at least 1700 people ascended on such "ships", otherwise they accepted death by self-immolation voluntarily.
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 15 August 2018 08: 37
        -1
        Quote: Kotischa
        Do not be so categorical!

        Professor of Moscow State Pedagogical University Alexander Pyzhikov

    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 15 August 2018 09: 08
      +2
      That's it ... I wanted to write about it myself, but you got ahead.
  3. Boris55
    Boris55 15 August 2018 07: 02
    -6
    Quote: Ryzhov V.A.
    Cathedral of the Russian Orthodox Church the old Russian (schismatic) rites were officially recognized as "equitable" new.

    My balls go behind the rollers. laughing How can the old split the new? Maybe all the same Nikon split the church and the current schismatic church (ROC) admitted defeat in the struggle for domination of the minds? Judeo-Christianity does not recognize the people.

    Quote: Ryzhov V.A.
    ... Orthodox Orthodox Christians and Old Believers.

    Well, this is generally a masterpiece! All in a bunch and red, and wet and square. wassat
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 15 August 2018 18: 42
      +1
      Boris, about Judeo-Christianity. You said a lot, apparently, you read Samsonov?
      If the new believers are so bad, then to some extent Stalin is bad: as you know, he singled out the ROC and in the fall of 1941 ordered to transfer the publishing house "Bezbozhnik" to the ROC.
  4. Basil50
    Basil50 15 August 2018 07: 42
    0
    Yeah, really. They are still editing what happened in reality.
    Do not forget about the daddy of the first Romanov. The way this happened is known even without church writings that correspond in favor of the current moment. But for some reason, the church writings try to PENDURE as historical evidence.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 15 August 2018 08: 50
      -1
      Quote: Vasily50
      The way this happened is known even without church writings that correspond in favor of the current moment.

      And who does not know, I suggest watching this video "Unknown Civil War in Russia in the XNUMXth century":

      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 15 August 2018 09: 13
        +1
        Quote: Boris55
        I propose to watch this video "Unknown Civil War in Russia in the XNUMXth century":

        Comrade Boris! This shit must be watched for an hour. No, well, her to hell. wassat
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 15 August 2018 09: 17
          -1
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          This shit must be watched for an hour.

          If you are not interested in what office science currently has at that time, you can not look. By the way, these professors are preparing future history teachers for all schools in Russia.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 15 August 2018 09: 26
            +1
            Quote: Boris55
            These professors prepare future history teachers for all schools in Russia.

            Moreover, I will not watch. I remember how Zhirinovsky ran into a professor at Moscow State University. He said that NATO was formed instead of the Warsaw Pact. Professor of historians, his mother.
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 15 August 2018 09: 35
              0
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              Moreover, I will not watch.

              In vain. We need to know what our schoolchildren are taught in order to understand what awaits us in the future.
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 15 August 2018 10: 15
                +1
                Quote: Boris55
                We need to know what our schoolchildren are taught in order to understand what awaits us in the future.

                And I know what they are being taught. Example: A biology teacher was a professor in the eighties; I constantly went to symposiums in Moscow. Labor teacher - Stump, there was nothing like that either. But my friend, the first-priority drunk, got a job as a physical education teacher.
            2. ver_
              ver_ 22 August 2018 05: 15
              -1
              ... forgot to add - * by the leg * ..
  5. Korsar4
    Korsar4 15 August 2018 07: 51
    +5
    Conscientious selection of the most difficult issue.

    But this is a summary - with a presentation of the main characters.

    And how many “small ones” are there throughout the country.
    Do not scoop out the sea with a spoon.

    But every ray of light is useful, which illuminates a key event in our history.

    And after all, the consequences of a split are everywhere.

    Here compare the icons of Rublev and Ushakov.

    Try to explain to the country that they didn’t live and serve like that.

    And who knows how to?

    "The blind guide the blind."
    1. Cat
      Cat 15 August 2018 08: 25
      +2
      blind guide the blind

      My applause! I subscribe to every word! Sincerely, Vlad Kotische!
  6. bober1982
    bober1982 15 August 2018 08: 30
    +2
    The decisions of the Local Council of 1971 to overcome the split were utopian, the Council did not have the authority to cancel the oaths and anathemas of the Great Moscow Cathedral in 1667, and, unfortunately, the fathers of the Cathedral (1971) were misled by the ecumenical report of Metropolitan Nicodemus.
    There can be no separation of the Church, just like the separation of the Orthodox, that is, there can only be a falling away from a single Church into schism and heresy. And, of which, then, can one speak of a union with heretics who over the past centuries split into warring groups. But even after decisions The Cathedral of 1971, the Old Believer groups did not take a counter step to overcome the schism, and are outside the Church.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 15 August 2018 08: 43
      +1
      Quote: bober1982
      Old Believer groups did not take a counter step to overcome the split

      Interesting. They split, and are we to blame? Let the ROC repent for all the atrocities committed by them in relation to our ancestors, and we will see if their repentance is sincere.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 15 August 2018 08: 52
        0
        Do you consider yourself an Old Believer?
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 15 August 2018 09: 03
          -1
          Quote: Korsar4
          Do you consider yourself an Old Believer?

          No, but they are closer to me. I do not accept that in the ROCC, in the ROC, it is their conviction that the prophet Jesus is God.
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 15 August 2018 09: 11
            +2
            Quote: Boris55
            it’s their conviction that the prophet Jesus is God.

            It’s hard not to laugh.
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 15 August 2018 09: 45
              -1
              Quote: bober1982
              It’s hard not to laugh.

              Do not quite understand what laughter is about? Is Jesus the prophet or that the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church consider him a god?
              1. bober1982
                bober1982 15 August 2018 09: 55
                +1
                Quote: Boris55
                Do not quite understand what laughter is about?

                Let's not laugh, Boris, in a post it is a sin to engage in laughter (sinned)
                1. Boris55
                  Boris55 15 August 2018 10: 18
                  0
                  Quote: bober1982
                  Let's not laugh, Boris, in a post it is a sin to engage in laughter (sinned)

                  Word sin translated as bug. You are mistaken? laughing Goodbye laughing
                  I think it’s time for us to stop on this, otherwise it can reach matyugv. hi
                  1. bober1982
                    bober1982 15 August 2018 10: 22
                    +2
                    Quote: Boris55
                    You are mistaken?

                    Yes, we will not exacerbate the schism, and I respect you.
              2. Flavius
                Flavius 15 August 2018 10: 07
                +4
                Quote: Boris55
                that jesus is a prophet

                Jesus cannot be a prophet, as he himself said in the gospel:
                verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am
                .

                I saw Satan falling from heaven like lightning;

                A prophet is just a man, he could not live before Abraham and at the same time during the time of the emperor Tiberius. And the prophet could not see Satan thrown from heaven at the beginning of time.
                So you are really funny because you are not familiar with the mat. part laughing
                And at the same time, you still have the audacity to state parting words.
                1. Boris55
                  Boris55 15 August 2018 10: 21
                  +1
                  Quote: Flavius
                  Jesus cannot be a prophet ... ... you are really funny because you are not familiar with the mat. part

                  Read about the Ecumenical Council of Nicaea 325 AD. What decisions were made on it, and then we'll talk about equipment.

                  1. Flavius
                    Flavius 15 August 2018 10: 51
                    +4
                    Quote: Boris55
                    Read about the Ecumenical Council of Nicaea 325 CE

                    Orthodox Christians do not adhere to the decisions of any one council - they adhere to the decisions of 7 (seven) Ecumenical Councils. And the latter take precedence over the former, which is logical, since the theoretical basis developed and improved in terms of the level of development of society.
                    Also, after you graduate from 10 classes, you probably do not rely on first-class notes. Although they are instructive and interesting.
                    But I’m probably mistaken - it’s you who most likely still live according to the textbooks of the second grade of primary school laughing
                    1. Boris55
                      Boris55 15 August 2018 11: 55
                      -1
                      Quote: Flavius
                      Orthodox Christians do not adhere to the decisions of any one council

                      This cathedral laid the foundation for Christianity and all its branches. The symbols of faith, including cross, etc ... hi
                      1. Flavius
                        Flavius 15 August 2018 12: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: Boris55
                        This cathedral laid the foundation for Christianity and all its branches. The symbols of faith, including cross, etc ..

                        I say - you read the gospel for a start. It was it that laid the foundation for Christianity and all its branches. It clearly says that Jesus is not a prophet.
                        Look at the root.
          2. Hantengri
            Hantengri 15 August 2018 11: 04
            +5
            Quote: Boris55
            I do not accept that in the ROCC, in the ROC, it is their conviction that the prophet Jesus is God.

            Then, I recommend that you urgently sign up for Islam. So that you, together with them (those who believe in the Right, those who are true believers, could wassat ), joyfully praise the prophet Muhammad and the forerunner of his prophet Isa! laughing
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 15 August 2018 12: 00
              -2
              Quote: HanTengri
              Then, I recommend that you urgently sign up for Islam.

              Then, for my part, I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the first Ecumenical Council of Nicaea 325 AD laid the foundation for Christianity.
              1. Hantengri
                Hantengri 15 August 2018 12: 24
                +3
                Quote: Boris55
                Then, for my part, I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the first Ecumenical Council of Nicaea 325 AD laid the foundation for Christianity.

                With what ...? You smack nonsense, but for some reason I have to spend time looking for evidence that you are right ?! Will it not be bold, my friend? The approver proves if you are not in the know.
                You claim that at the first Council of Nicaea, 318 bishops came to the agreement that Jesus Christ should be considered only a prophet? So you bring us those materials of the Council that prove it irrefutably, Prove to us, to everyone, that you are right, and we are not!
                1. Boris55
                  Boris55 15 August 2018 12: 59
                  -3
                  Quote: HanTengri
                  You claim that at the first Council of Nicaea, the 325 bishops agreed that Jesus Christ should be considered only a prophet?

                  Not. On the contrary.

                  The Nicene Council became a cathedral, on which the basic doctrines of Christianity were determined and established.

                  - The Council condemned Arianism and approved the postulate of the consubstantiality of the Son to the Father and His eternal birth.
                  - The article of faith was composed of seven points, which later became known as Nicaea.
                  - The advantages of the bishops of the four largest metropolises were recorded: the Roman, Alexandrian, Antioch and Jerusalem (6 and 7 canons).
                  - The Cathedral also set the time for the celebration of Easter on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox.
                  - The main symbol of Christianity has been approved - the CROSS!

                  From the above HISTORICAL facts, it is clear that - the Emperor, Bishops, Priests and other "responsible" persons, APPROVED the laws, symbols and the "main thing" - assigned the status of God to the prophet Jesus (xnumx years after his death:), for your own purposes and for your own sake!

                  The status of God was assigned to the long-dead Jesus by a simple vote with two abstentions.
                  1. Hantengri
                    Hantengri 15 August 2018 14: 39
                    +2
                    1) I asked for the documents of the Council of Nicaea, and not a quote from where.
                    2)
                    Quote: Boris55
                    From the above HISTORICAL facts, it is clear that - the Emperor, Bishops, Priests and other "responsible" persons, APPROVED the laws, symbols and the "main thing" - assigned the status of God to the prophet Jesus (325 years after his death :), for your own purposes and for your own sake!

                    The status of God was assigned to the long-dead Jesus by a simple vote with two abstentions.


                    Jesus said to him: I am the way and the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father as soon as through Me.

                    If you knew Me, you would know My Father. And from now on you know Him and have seen Him.
                    Philip said to him: Lord! show us the Father, and enough for us.

                    Jesus said to him: I have been with you for so long, and you do not know Me, Philip? Seen

                    The Father saw me; how do you say show us the Father?
                    Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I speak, I speak
                    not from himself; Father abiding in Me, He does the work.

                    Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me; and if not, then believe Me according to the deeds. John 14. 6-11

                    That is, even in your interpretation, the Council only confirmed what He said about himself.
                    3) You, apparently, in your ignorance, took the phrase:
                    Quote: Boris55
                    - The Council condemned Arianism and approved the postulate of the consubstantiality of the Son to the Father and His eternal birth.

                    as a proclamation of the divine essence of Jesus. laughing And she, only, declares the Arians "byaki", for not recognizing that Christ is equal to God the Father in divinity. (Note, this is about the fact that one hundred God the Son is somewhat lower than God the Father in status, and not about the fact that Jesus is just another prophet.)
                    1. ver_
                      ver_ 22 August 2018 05: 33
                      -1
                      ... Jesus - the son of God - called the sons of God (unborn women) babies whose mothers * Caesar * * could not be born ... God Osirius - comes out of the woman’s belly - on the fresco * birth of the god Osirius * ...
          3. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 15 August 2018 11: 25
            +3
            Quote: Boris55
            that the prophet Jesus is God.

            What? Oh, damn it, I’ll die with a laugh. laughing
          4. vladcub
            vladcub 15 August 2018 18: 51
            +2
            And you know that the so-called "catacomb church" was nominated by the most stubborn Old Believers to the victims for their faith and the people of Kaminsky, and even HITLER considered him a byaka!
      2. bober1982
        bober1982 15 August 2018 09: 00
        +1
        Quote: Boris55
        Let the ROC repent

        To whom to repent, dear Boris, to the sectarians? I don’t want to make a dog dump.
        Dog landfill - close air combat group of aircraft.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 15 August 2018 09: 08
          +4
          I do not agree. Old Believers are not a sect.
          Then the schisms began inside the Old Believers.

          That is why the principle of collegiality is so important.
        2. Boris55
          Boris55 15 August 2018 09: 09
          -1
          Quote: bober1982
          To whom to repent, dear Boris, before the sectarians?

          Everyone knows that it was Nikon who, through his reforms, brought confusion and split a single church. So why should the united church once repent before those who split them? I do not understand this. For me, this is equivalent to the fact that we must repent before the West for having won the Second World War - this is nonsense.

          Nikon would not carry out his reforms and there would not be any split. Reforms were needed to justify the introduction of serfdom (slavery) by the Romanovs.
          1. Mikhail Matyugin
            Mikhail Matyugin 18 August 2018 20: 26
            0
            Quote: Boris55
            For me, this is equivalent to the fact that we must repent before the West for having won the Second World War - this is nonsense.

            Nikon would not carry out his reforms and there would not be any split. Reforms were needed to justify the introduction by the Romanovs of serfdom (slavery)

            This is perhaps the only thing I agree with in your posts.
      3. Cat
        Cat 15 August 2018 09: 21
        +8
        Dear Boris, the Russian Orthodox Church held out her peace hand twice more and apologized in 2000 and 2012.
        I do not think this is a PR gesture. So a step has been taken from the side of the Russian Orthodox Church. To accept or not accept it, the word belongs to the Old Believers.
        Yours!
        Example. At Christmas, my colleagues guarded the Old Believer church in the Visa district of Yekaterinburg. It was cold around 35 ° frost. In contrast to the churches of the Russian Orthodox Church, Old Believers of strangers (including police officers) are not allowed to enter. Immediately, an emergency situation on the street was corny cold, and the bus was not allocated because of the smallness of the parish.
        The service does not go to the priest. I went up to the oldest and most representative who stood at the entrance to the church. Trouble help out, people will freeze. Dedok asked for five minutes. He left, came back and put my guys in some back room, next to the church. He also scolded me and them, "that we are not Russian people, Russians, in order to let our own people freeze to death." On attempts, to make excuses he cycled, so that the ears "wilted". Later, after the service, the father of the "schismatics" also twisted my tail. Especially I waited four hours for me to check in. And again the saying "that we are not our own, or something."
        So Boris, for all our mutual grievances, we are our own - Russians. Even an obvious Tatar (Muslim) who tried to tell the priest that he is a non-believer and he cannot enter the Christian church. To which the schismatic complained that it was winter outside, otherwise he would have put nettles in his pants for "sugrev". To be honest, I believed him.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 15 August 2018 09: 28
          +5
          Good story.
          There is nothing for us to share.

          And our common story. And not only the temples of the Rogozhskaya Sloboda are loved.

          I really like the St. Nicholas Church in Moscow near the Belorusskaya metro station.
          And the service, when parishioners with leaflets - how you find yourself in the old days.
          1. Mikhail Matyugin
            Mikhail Matyugin 18 August 2018 20: 27
            +1
            Quote: Korsar4
            And the service, when parishioners with leaflets - how you find yourself in the old days

            Flats, not leafs, are completely different objects.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 21 August 2018 12: 53
              +1
              Of course. Talked about the stairs. This program is too smart. I did not finish it.
        2. Boris55
          Boris55 15 August 2018 10: 35
          -1
          Quote: Kotischa
          The Russian Orthodox Church held out her hand twice more

          In order to kiss her?

          I do not like either the Russian Orthodox Church or the Russian Orthodox Church. Their difference is that the former protect the government, while the latter care about its people.

          Stalin built the USSR on the principle of the Old Believers. In the Old Believers it was not considered something out of the ordinary, say, throwing the whole world onto an airplane or a tank or "buying" the same bonds, knowing that these investments will go to a common cause.

          There is stolen capital that protects the Russian Orthodox Church and there is public capital, which is in the Russian Orthodox Church. Whoever likes it is everyone’s business.
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 15 August 2018 20: 49
            0
            Yeah, he preferred to talk with the locum tenens of the patriarchal throne Sergius.
          2. Mikhail Matyugin
            Mikhail Matyugin 18 August 2018 20: 28
            +1
            Quote: Boris55
            Stalin built the USSR on the principle of the Old Believers.

            I don’t even know whether to laugh at me or cry over the meanness of your views on history ...
        3. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 15 August 2018 12: 07
          +1
          Quote: Kotischa
          Example.

          I also had the opportunity to communicate with the Old Believers. My impression is a closed caste of obscurantists, with signs of a totalitarian sect. I admit that the order and state of affairs in a community may depend on its leadership, and in other communities there may be other orders, but ... you cannot throw out words from a song. What I saw, I say.
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 15 August 2018 12: 33
            0
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            I also had a chance to communicate with the Old Believers. My impression is a closed caste of obscurantists, having signs of a totalitarian sect

            5-minute historian.

            In general, the Old Believers are the best part of society.


          2. albert
            albert 15 August 2018 21: 31
            +2
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            I also had the opportunity to communicate with the Old Believers. My impression is a closed caste of obscurantists, with signs of a totalitarian sect. I admit that the order and state of affairs in a community may depend on its leadership, and in other communities there may be other orders, but ... you cannot throw out words from a song. What I saw, I say.

            Based on my personal impressions, I’ll say exactly the opposite. The Old Believers, with whom I talked and worked, are the kindest people and a hundred times better than the priests from the Russian Orthodox Church.
  7. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 15 August 2018 09: 39
    +4
    I’ll tell a story too. They buried a friend. Father declared that we arrived late. Well, here, we gave him a paw, and it turned out that it was not too late. wassat
    1. Flavius
      Flavius 15 August 2018 11: 18
      +3
      Quote: Mordvin 3
      Father declared that we arrived late. Well, here, we gave him a paw, and it turned out that it was not too late

      The priest had in mind that a funeral service for your friend would no longer help. Late we realized. Even though they gave money for the Church, it’s good - you yourself can be counted.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 15 August 2018 11: 28
        +3
        Quote: Flavius
        Even though they gave money for the Church, it’s good - you yourself can be counted.

        Hrenushki ... Do not count a damn .. crying
        1. Flavius
          Flavius 15 August 2018 11: 34
          +2
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          Hrenushki ... Do not count a damn ..

          Why did you go to church? They would have buried a friend, sung Marseillaise and home. After all, you Mordvinians, that father, that a llama, that a bush of a racite - one horseradish. laughing
          1. Cat
            Cat 15 August 2018 17: 00
            +6
            Let's be frank, "chipped" and bribe-takers were everywhere and always. It is naive to think that among the clergy there will be only honest, just and churchly ministers. As an everywhere.
            I am throwing another story. In 2014, on Easter, he was once again responsible. I arrive at 4 am at the church on the Chusovsky tract. And in shock - the opera is asleep, the PDN (girls) are sleeping, the outfit of the PPSP is sleeping! Only the service dog opened one eye, yawned and continued to sleep. I was about to yell, when I looked up to me, the priest came up with a "wardrobe-closet" oblique saddle in his shoulders and said "you son do not swear at them, I ordered them to sleep. The service is over, the congregation has left. I say "as ordered." He smiled and said in a fatherly way, "I would be a colonel, so as not to convince your gang, tea is not a division. The hedgehog is a lieutenant colonel, but don't worry about their guard!"
            So, do not smear everyone with one world - priests are people too, and people can be different!
            Sincerely, Kitty!
            1. Flavius
              Flavius 15 August 2018 20: 55
              +2
              In the above story with the funeral, I do not see any bribery. They honestly told people that a requiem for objective reasons is useless for the deceased. But, if you really want to, then you can do it - it won’t be worse. Everyone got what they wanted: one side - a beautiful church ceremony, the other side - banknotes for the work done.
  8. Albatroz
    Albatroz 15 August 2018 09: 48
    +4
    Terrible affair church schism
    Walks through the living
  9. BAI
    BAI 15 August 2018 10: 17
    +3
    Religious feuds (wars) are some of the most cruel. Bartholomew’s night has become a universally recognized term.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 15 August 2018 13: 59
      0
      Quote: BAI
      Bartholomew’s night has become a universally recognized term.

      Friday 13? laughing There is not so much by faith as by grandmas. They did not want to give debts.
  10. wooja
    wooja 15 August 2018 10: 40
    +1
    Unfortunately, we know very little about the pre-raskolnichesky church, and most likely we will not know ... neither the Old Believers nor the Russian Orthodox Church are interested in this ..., both branches are mired in contention .... and mutual hostility, and even Christian forgiveness cannot solve their contradictions. But on the other hand, the dog barks and the caravan goes ..., life will judge or have already judged ...
  11. Batonkt
    Batonkt 15 August 2018 13: 09
    +5
    Neither in the text nor in the comments is there an indication of a double poll tax for Old Believers. Are any of you willing to pay a double tax of 26% of the RFP for faith? No answers are needed, I know that everyone is ready))) This is to understand that the Old Believers are not ordinary people or sectarians. I unfortunately do not belong to the definition of a believer, but I try to treat them with respect to those and, especially, others.
  12. Curious
    Curious 15 August 2018 13: 57
    +2
    "Imperial ambitions cost dearly both to the patriarch who started the reform and to the monarch who actively supported their implementation. The great-power policy of Alexei Mikhailovich has failed ..."
    Judging by the presentation and conclusions, the author wrote under the influence of the book of the historian A.V. Kramer "The split of the Russian Church in the middle of the XNUMXth century".
    In any case, Kramer's conclusion is the same - the cruel and domineering Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich wished to build a pan-Orthodox empire with its center in Moscow, and for this he decided to introduce liturgical uniformity according to the Greek model. The crafty and corrupt Greeks did not explain anything to him, looking only for their own benefit, and he partly eliminated the passive Russian clergy, partly intimidated. The common people did not need these political games, therefore, for the most part, they did not accept reforms, but in part they had to give in to brute government force. At the same time, "none of the leaders of the Russian Church or Russian politics said directly that the last goal of the reform is military-political expansion."
    It is unlikely that such a dramatic event has such a primitive interpretation.
    Many people participate in events of this magnitude, they have different goals and motives, while the result of their actions almost never coincides exactly with their intentions, and a victory at a tactical level can turn into a serious defeat in the long run.
    Therefore, articles on a similar topic to amateurs are strictly contraindicated, since the topic requires extensive knowledge of a historical and theological nature, as well as the works of the classics of this topic - Klyuchevsky and Kartashev.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 15 August 2018 14: 25
      +6
      Quote: Curious
      Therefore, articles on this topic are strictly contraindicated to amateurs, since the topic requires extensive historical and theological knowledge.

      It's hard not to agree, Viktor Nikolaevich, but such articles are also needed, especially on this resource. Just because otherwise the informational vacuum (and the topic, besides being complicated, well-known, causes interest to many), will be filled with completely unimaginable fantasies in the style of Samsonov or those that BorisNNX and Bar55 (Pyzhikov with Fomenko) preach here.
      So thank the author for his work and recall that there is no limit to perfection and its ceiling has not yet been reached. smile
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 15 August 2018 15: 42
          +4
          Quote: Curious
          by engaging authors of the appropriate level

          The point is not even that these authors need to be involved somehow. The point is who will read them. Science-like texts with an abundance of specific terminology may not be interesting and understandable to everyone. For example, I am not sure that I could quickly and correctly understand a text written by a theologian. Simplification is a guarantee that the text will be understood by the reader and, perhaps, even correctly understood. It is easier and more reliable to arouse the reader’s curiosity and introduce some simple, but, in general, true concepts to him, than to paint an objective picture with subtle strokes.
      2. BAI
        BAI 15 August 2018 14: 53
        +3
        Just because otherwise the information vacuum (and the topic, besides the complex, also well-known, causing interest among many) will be filled with completely unimaginable fantasies

        Incompetent comments on this topic can end badly. The law "On insulting the feelings of believers" has not yet been canceled. Who knows, who here on the site will be offended?
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 15 August 2018 19: 33
          +5
          Quote: BAI
          The law "On insulting the feelings of believers" has not yet been canceled.

          Exceptionally because no one took it. smile
          There is an article 148 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation - Violation of the right to freedom of conscience and religion.
          With regard to comments on the site, even theoretically only one part of this article can be applied - the first, which is formulated as follows:
          Public actions expressing disrespect for society and committed in order to insult the religious feelings of believers

          Public action is understandable. Published a comment - made a public action.
          Explicit disrespect for society is more difficult here. What is "disrespect" and when it is "obvious" and when it is not is not very clear. “Disrespect” can be understood as disregard for generally accepted norms of behavior, actions that are demonstrative in nature. Let's admit. And the "obvious" must then be understood as indisputable, beyond doubt ... For whom? The victim? The accused? Others? At the judge? For all at once or for each separately?
          Further. "For the purpose of offending" implies a direct intent that has yet to be proven. I didn't want to offend anyone, I was just joking, but it seems unsuccessful. That's it, we've arrived.
          "Religious Feelings of Believers". There is generally discrimination. Why doesn't anyone care about my atheistic feelings? Okay, there is a loophole - I am a believer and I believe that there is no God. This is my religious feeling. Can I take it as an insult that they quote the Bible or the Koran in my comments? Or maybe I'm just lying and I'm not a believer at all, I just don't like this person. How can you tell whether I am a believer or not? Do I go to church or mosque? Do I read the Bible or the Koran at home? Do I donate "for the construction" of any nonsense? No, of course, you can't define it that way. So what - you just have to take my word for it?
          In short, the article is nonsense, in any case, the first part of it. According to it, you can either put anyone in, if you take the word of the victim, or you can not put anyone, and the second is more likely. Stillborn law.
          So we discuss religion issues calmly - no one will touch us.
  13. Roni
    Roni 15 August 2018 15: 56
    +1
    What a pity, such an interesting topic!

    Here it would be interesting, real-life stories told stories. Or they gave examples of little-known literature, photographs, would discuss them (as some did, for which many thanks to them).
    After all, the truth is, the branch only lasts a day, and the topic is serious.
    Instead, a bicker, sorry. What for? Show off? Train for recruitment?

    I just can’t keep silent, hurt by the living. I begin to suspect NLP methods in those circles that promote an alternative story, but how else do they become so unshakably convinced that they have grasped the truth?

    I read and hear word-for-word the argumentation of my friends, also adherents of truth, only on a different topic (about the achievements of Indian civilizations, there were many disputes, many copies were broken). No natural-scientific proofs, examples and mathematical calculations, nor conclusions through simple logic, nothing could shake their confidence in the only truth they knew.

    The main thing such arguers are convinced that in the face of the “adversary”, in no case should one doubt what they are saying, they need to provoke him, pass “extra” information past their ears and demand evidence. It’s very convenient: while they prove something to you, you find fault, you play with words, you catch on trifles, and if nothing is found, then you build yourself into a hurt young lady who no one understands.

    One of the variants of the word game, as in the Carroll logic games:
    “All soldiers are brave.
    Some British are brave.
    So some British are soldiers. ”
    1. Cat
      Cat 15 August 2018 17: 07
      +3
      I congratulate Roni on getting the desired "nickname", I wanted to blur out about baptism, but our theologians will eat them, they won't even leave a tail and ears !!! love
      Sincerely, Kitty!
      1. Roni
        Roni 15 August 2018 18: 26
        +2
        "Shouldn't we call a cat a cat? .."
        Thank you!
        Yes, I was not denied such a "whim".

        And often you have to guard the Old Believer churches or is it in those places where a particularly irreconcilable struggle is taking place?
        1. Cat
          Cat 15 August 2018 20: 04
          +8
          Dear Roni, this is not about Old Believer churches or church affairs.
          The tasks of the internal affairs bodies include the protection of public order and public safety, including with a massive concentration of people.
          So it makes no difference whether it is Trinity, Ramadan or Sabantuy, or city day, a sporting event will be put on an outfit nearby. It’s just that many are already used to it, and when the outfit comes up regardless of religious affiliation, the priest, mule or rabbi, they try to somehow shelter, girls and children. Especially in winter. Even just tell me where the toilet is. Here already a lot depends on the clergyman himself.
          For example, you cannot enter a mosque with shoes on. The children will be shown and the emergency entrance will be opened. I ask the imam "how Alah will see this," he replies with a smile, "Alah will forgive the war of any faith, since today you are the shield and sword of the faithful." He sees that I was a little dumbfounded "Frowns and already strictly says, if today they come to the church to kill, who will die first? And knocks on my head with your finger" your Arkharovtsy! And you want to tell me that God will pay attention to whether you are wearing shoes or not, are you a Muslim or a Christian? You came to the mosque to do your duty, and this is the most important thing! ”These are our imams.
          I will say more, they even ask for some priests, they know that they will give them tea and get some cake.
          And the last thing, even if it is the opening day of the "beer boutique", a local person will definitely drop in there. So it is rare that any of the police officers meet the holidays at home. Always in reinforcement, detachment or reserve. Who in epaulettes stand in charge, elders, etc.
          Somewhere like that!
          If Mikado looks in, ask him for a song in the capital! He has these stories like "...... candy wrappers"!
          1. Roni
            Roni 15 August 2018 20: 22
            +3
            Now it is clear. Thank.
            Mutual assistance is universal.
  14. Tatanka Yotanka
    Tatanka Yotanka 15 August 2018 18: 20
    +2
    an article about the struggle for power over the mind-merchants of rituals, to call themselves a Christian does not mean they are in the vast majority, the drugged priests around the world killed, robbed, burned, waged war, and with each other, and all this in the name of Christ?
    “Many will say to me that day: Lord! Lord Was it not in your name that we prophesied? and didn’t they cast out demons in your name? and didn’t you perform many miracles in your name? And then I will declare to them: I never knew you; depart from Me, doing iniquity ”(Matt. 7: 22-23)
    1. bober1982
      bober1982 15 August 2018 20: 24
      +1
      Quote: Tatanka Yotanka
      to call themselves a Christian does not mean they are in the vast majority

      You, correctly say, and even in confirmation of your innocence, quote the words of the Savior, and here you speak about drugged by priests, well, and further down the text. In my opinion, you contradict yourself.
    2. Flavius
      Flavius 15 August 2018 20: 24
      +2
      Quote: Tatanka Yotanka
      drugged by priests, people around the world were killing, robbing, burning, waging war, and with each other, all in the name of Christ

      The population has been doing this throughout the history of mankind without reference to the name of Christ. And baptism does not automatically make anyone a saint. They only showed you the way, then think for yourself - to go along it or not.
      1. Tatanka Yotanka
        Tatanka Yotanka 16 August 2018 08: 29
        0
        Quote: Flavius
        The population has been doing this throughout the history of mankind without reference to the name of Christ.

        certainly it was, but remember the Crusades, the conquest of the colonies under the pretext of the Christianization of the natives, and how many people in Europe were killed by the Holy Inquisition, I'm not talking about the blessing of the Teutons, Poles, and Hitler fellow
        Pope’s speech on Hitler’s death: “Adolf Hitler, son of the Catholic Church, died under the protection of Christianity. ...
        1. Flavius
          Flavius 16 August 2018 08: 56
          0
          Quote: Tatanka Yotanka
          but remember the crusades, the conquest of the colonies under the pretext of Christianization

          I remembered everything ...
          Crusades are a good thing. The homeland of Muslims is Arabia, and in Jerusalem they have nothing to do - neither then nor now. Christians just took their toll.
          Conquest was carried out by everyone and always. Why is it necessary to single out only Christians - it is not clear. At the same time, secular power must be separated from the church. Conquests were conducted precisely the first.
          how many people in Europe were killed by the holy Inquisition,

          A little - according to the latest data for centuries and centuries, 20 thousand.
          Quote: Tatanka Yotanka
          Pope’s speech on Hitler’s death: “Adolf Hitler, son of the Catholic Church, died under the protection of Christianity.

          Hitler did not blow up churches and did not kill priests on religious grounds. The Bolsheviks did just that. Because Hitler logically falls into the category of defenders of the Catholic Church.
          1. Mikhail Matyugin
            Mikhail Matyugin 18 August 2018 20: 35
            +1
            Quote: Flavius
            Crusades are a good thing. The homeland of Muslims is Arabia, and in Jerusalem they have nothing to do - neither then nor now. Christians just took their toll.

            Yes, and it remains to add only that the war with religious slogans was invented by none other than Muslims, because it was Muhammad who launched the worldwide jihad of the sword.
  15. vladcub
    vladcub 15 August 2018 19: 22
    -1
    If you figure it out, Nikon had interesting and necessary ideas, and the author himself talked about this and flashed in the comments that Nikon and Alexei Mikhailovich wanted to.
    By the way, there is a version that Nikon "gave the horns" to Alexei Mikhailovich, and if this is so, then a completely different reason for the enmity between the Tsar and Nikon.
    The fact that Peter1 is not the son of Alexei Mikhailovich has long been known.
    In general, I recommend reading not the alternative nonsense, but the CLASSICS OF HISTORY. From modern historians I recommend Buganov: "Peter the Great and. His Time"
    I do not like to refer to fiction, but now there is a good writer Svechin, he LOVES THE HISTORY OF RUSSIA and he has clear historical deeds. He, unlike Akunin, uses documents
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 15 August 2018 21: 20
      0
      Quote: vladcub
      If you look, Nikon had interesting and necessary ideas.


      and who needs it?
    2. Hantengri
      Hantengri 15 August 2018 22: 43
      +1
      Quote: vladcub
      The fact that Peter1 is not the son of Alexei Mikhailovich has long been known.

      Here from here in more detail, please! Who knows where and who can confirm the document? And then, you know ...
  16. Operator
    Operator 15 August 2018 21: 14
    -3
    The author became entangled in three pines - his versions of Nikon’s abdication from the patriarchate - either Nikon himself resigned, then the tsar had to invite three authoritative clergy from abroad for Nikon’s forcible removal laughing

    As for the split, Christian church organizations (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) differ from other monotheistic churches (Islamic and Jewish), including a strict church hierarchy. In the case of the reform, Nikon what the patriarch decided is an unconditional law for all clergy and parishioners. Those who violated the hierarchy - they are schismatics, are subject to excommunication from the Russian Orthodox Church and are free to create their own schismatic organizations.

    Therefore, the author can go through the woods in his attempt to turn reality upside down and call them schismatics of the Russian Orthodox Church.
    1. VLR
      15 August 2018 22: 44
      +3
      Wow, comment! Did you read my article? Not another one? Nikon did not relieve himself of the title of patriarch, but was removed from his duties. Then he offered to leave in an amicable way - he asked only for the opportunity to save face: he resigns from himself, but he also confirms the new patriarch. For some reason, the tsar did not want to, summoned some crooks who arranged a trial not so much over Nikon as over the Russian Orthodox Church. As for the term "schismatics" - I used it in the generally accepted sense, although, of course, the point of view is interesting - to declare Nikon and Alexei Mikhailovich to be schismatics. But I proceeded from the fact that Nikon is an official of the Russian Orthodox Church, therefore it is he who determines the "general line", deviation from which is considered to be heresy. It is another matter that it was precisely these hasty, clumsy, ill-prepared reforms of Nikon and Aleksei Mikhailovich that provoked sufficient serious resistance from some of the priests and flock, and became the cause of the Schism. At the same time, I think, under the banner of the Split, those opponents of the government who would have opposed it in any case, would have found another reason, have also come out. In principle, I did not want to impose opinions on anyone, and put conclusions into my head, so I did not participate in the discussion. But here I could not resist, such a strange, perplexing comment.
  17. Operator
    Operator 15 August 2018 21: 20
    +1
    Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
    Not found in any of the written or oral sources of Ancient Russia

    When they meet, neo-pagans will unambiguously format Boris with his substitution of Perun, Dazhdbog, Svarog, Veles, etc. "reality-pravyu-navyu" laughing
  18. vladcub
    vladcub 15 August 2018 21: 43
    0
    The topic is very multifaceted and interesting in order to reveal it in one article. And so I really want to continue to see it.
    Kourios is right in reading other points of view when working on such a topic, but Trilobitovich, I don’t know his middle name, is right: it’s suitable to fill the vacuum, but again, CONTINUED
  19. Weyland
    Weyland 15 August 2018 23: 39
    -1
    Quote: Bar1
    The Russian people did not want to pray with two fingers, speak Jesus instead of Jesus, and for this they had to be executed, burned, hanged, chopped, and spread rot in prisons. And all just because a handful of Athos renegades decided to be baptized with three fingers instead of two, and somehow incomprehensibly convinced Alexei Mikhailovich and the patriarch to do this for the Russian people too.

    Not so: everything is only because Aleksey Mikhailovich decided to break the Church through the knee on the principle of "divide and rule!" - first dealt with the schismatics, and then with Nikon!
  20. tank66
    tank66 16 August 2018 00: 07
    +1
    And I like Pushkin - our everything ...
    Quote: I. Virabov ZhZL "Andrey Voznesensky":
    "... Pushkin" adored fortune-telling, was superstitious, folded a fig in his pocket when he saw people in a cassock "..."
    good / today would be - on the 282nd dead /
    ... we will amuse good citizens
    And at the infamous pillar
    Gut last pop
    The last king is strangled.
    1. Flavius
      Flavius 16 August 2018 07: 29
      +2
      In Europe, the kings and priests were strangled, now they kiss Muslims in the ass and the men marry each other. What I wish you smile
      1. VLR
        16 August 2018 09: 46
        +2
        Well, in fairness it should be said that in the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Great Britain, Denmark, Norway, Spain tolerastism gets on well with the monarchy. It's not about the form of government, but about the aging of nations and the loss of passion by the local population. In fact, now we are talking about a new Great Migration of Peoples and the agony of the Western world, similar to the agony of Rome.
        1. Flavius
          Flavius 16 August 2018 09: 54
          -1
          Quote: VlR
          in fairness it should be said that in the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Great Britain, Denmark, Norway, Spain

          In these countries, the monarch is a cardboard fool. Just a beautiful decoration from the past. As well as all their Anglican, Lutheran and other "churches".
          These are coffins. Any people and people will turn into such if they do not strictly adhere to the requirements of the Church.
          1. VLR
            16 August 2018 10: 12
            +3
            In fact, there is an opinion that the queen (king) of Great Britain (he is also the king of the 15 states) is not a decorative figure, but, on the contrary, decisive, no more or less important decision is made there without the approval of the monarch. At least, there is no constitution in Great Britain, and Grandma Elizabeth, if she wishes, can kick the Prime Minister at any moment, and can dissolve the Parliament indefinitely. And tales of British democracy are just tales. Moreover, the so-called Dominions (Canada, Australia, etc.) are also not completely independent, and the right to say and do something is obtained only after the permission of the aforementioned grandmother.
            1. Flavius
              Flavius 16 August 2018 12: 28
              +1
              Quote: VlR
              Actually, there is an opinion that the queen (king) of Great Britain (he is also the king of another 15 states) is not a decorative figure,

              There are many opinions. One of them says that the world is ruled by a kagal of Jewish bankers, the other that people came from monkeys or flew from other planets.
              But sensible people are guided by common sense and do not believe in fables.
    2. Weyland
      Weyland 16 August 2018 22: 26
      0
      Quote: tank66
      We will amuse good citizens
      And at the infamous pillar
      Gut last pop
      The last king is strangled.

      in fact, this is a translation of one of the "encyclopedists" - either Voltaire, or Montesquieu
      1. Mikhail Matyugin
        Mikhail Matyugin 18 August 2018 20: 41
        +1
        Quote: Weyland
        in fact, this is a translation of one of the "encyclopedists" - either Voltaire, or Montesquieu

        And when A.S. Pushkin was lying on his deathbed, for some reason he did not refuse either Confession, or Holy Communion, and he did not recall his obscene rhymes ...
  21. Sovpadenie
    Sovpadenie 16 August 2018 15: 01
    0
    The article contains nothing new. The "one-sidedness" of exposing the central government is striking. But not a word about the blind inert adherence of the Old Believers to the letter of the established tradition. And it would be fine if they went to the stake for their ideas themselves. But they attracted hundreds of supporters. And how does the author suggest that the central government should act in relation to open disobedience?
  22. Operator
    Operator 16 August 2018 20: 09
    +1
    "The great-power policy of Alexei Mikhailovich collapsed in the very near future", - yeah, in the form of the annexation of Little Russia and the creation of an economic base for the future Russian Empire laughing

    Russophobia rushing over the edge.
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