Swiss version of the design of Ludwig Vorgrimler (part of 3)

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In the second part of the material about the Czech automaton vz.58, it was said that from 1946 to 1949, the German designer Ludwig Vorgrimler and his colleague Theodor Löffler managed to create three versions of the machine for different cartridges and worked for France and Spain, where Vrigrimler moved to 1950 year. And it was his StG 45 that served as the basis for the HK G3 automatic rifle, which appeared in Germany in 1959, and the HK MP5 submachine gun, and in Switzerland, made the SIG SG 510 rifle.


Rifle Stgw.57.



The fact that “Czech is excellent” was already discussed here, but everything that was done in Switzerland was also always of high quality. So there is a reason to digress from the topic of Czech weapons and talk about what the structure Forgrimlera turned on Swiss soil.


Rifle Stgw.57. (Army Museum in Stockholm).

By the way, this material is also a good reason to talk about small arms in general, the terminology used in our literature and a number of other interesting circumstances.


Rifle Stgw. 57. (Army Museum in Stockholm). This particular sample was used in the Swedish army between 1960 - 1964. on trials to select a promising model for its armament. But in the end, according to the test results, the Swedes still chose the Heckler & Koh G3 rifle. The photo clearly shows the carrying handle, short wooden forend, folded sights and a fire translator.

While the war was going on, the Swiss were actively studying the achievements of the military thought of the warring countries, rightly judging that they had nowhere to hurry. However, after its completion, it became obvious that the time requirements needed to be met by both them and the work on creating a new rifle, and, of course, the automatic were immediately accelerated. And now, after a number of intermediate samples in 1954 - 1955. at SIG, under the leadership of Rudolph Amsler, an automatic rifle Stgw.57 (SturmGewehr 57), adopted by the Swiss army in 1957, is being created. Her version of the SIG 510-4 was exported to Bolivia and Chile. Known variants of SIG 510-1 (Stgw.57 caliber 7,5 mm); SIG 510-2 - the same caliber, but somewhat lightweight; SIG 510-3 - made under the Soviet cartridge 7,62x39 mm, and with a magazine for 30 cartridges.


Scheme of the device.

It remains to add that at the heart of the design of this rifle lies the same development of Ludwig Forgrimler, which at the same time was embodied in the Spanish rifle “CETME”. However, if we try to learn more about her, then ... we will meet information surprisingly little. All-knowing Wikipedia in Russian gives it only four paragraphs. There is this and this, albeit clumsy, but informative phrase: “The developed AM 55 assault rifle (also using the SIG 510-0) was modeled on the German experimental StG45 (M)”. And a very clear work of Google translator - “The rifle was shot by Swiss 7,5 x 55 mm GP11 ammunition.”


GP11 cartridges.

Then there is a link to the materials of the site weapon.at.ua, where such an interesting description of the automatic operation of this rifle is given, that I simply cannot deny myself the pleasure to bring it in its entirety: “For cocking the weapon it is necessary to take back and release the T-shaped handle, with the bolt going forward, sending the cartridge into the chamber. The cock is cocked and held by the sear. The shutter consists of two parts: the stem and the larvae. On the larva, rollers of unusual design are mounted: on the cylindrical roller itself, small figured details are hinged. When the cartridge enters the chamber, the larva stops, and the stem of the gate continues to move and passes between the rollers. The mirror has a wedge-shaped shape, and the rollers are forced into the grooves of the receiver.

Swiss version of the design of Ludwig Vorgrimler (part of 3)

Here it is - the shutter rifle SIG 510-4. The extractor hook is clearly visible at the bottom. To the right is the extractor lever, which, when the bolt moves backward, shifts the sleeve to the right and throws it out of the receiver window. The locking roller protruding from it is also clearly visible.

When fired, the cartridge case moves backwards. The inner surface of the chamber has longitudinal grooves, which allow the powder gases to pass to the mirror gate. It has two openings through which gases pass through the larva and press on the stem of the bolt. The pressure of the liner and the powder gases causes the rollers to move inward along the inclined surfaces of the stem stem. Due to the angles of inclination of the wedge-shaped surface, the stem of the shutter is forced to move back and detach from the larva.


This photo clearly shows the principle of the locking unit: the back of the bolt slides back out from the front, and the rollers hide in their sockets.

When the rollers come out of the grooves, the bolt, in a disconnected state, continues to roll back. The cartridge case is pressed against the shutter mirror with an ejector. It is fixed pivotally on the top of the combat larva; when the bolt rolls back, it rests against an inclined projection on the left side of the receiver, as a result the sleeve is ejected through the window on the right side of the receiver. This design provides a smoother operation of the mechanism in the process of ejecting the liner. "


Shutter device views from the top: on the left - in the collection, in the center of the back with a protruding locking rod, on the right - the shutter head, at the bottom - a return spring.

It is clear that this description is given in the typical Soviet tradition of describing the details of a weapon - “stem”, “larva”. However, it is well known that “all wars were due to inaccuracies of formulations” (a joke, of course, but there is a lot of sense in it!), Because if we consider the details of this rifle, then we will immediately have many questions. So - "the shutter consists of a stem and a larva" ... Let's look at it and see that it consists of two massive steel bars of almost the same size. The larva is something round, small. A larva with half a shutter is nonsense, just like the “stem” is its second part. The stem could still be called a locking rod protruding from it with a pointed front, because the massive part of this detail, by analogy with the world of colors, could be called a “bud,” but the whole “bud and stem” could be called simply a stem. In general, in this description, that the phrase is a pearl. And it is not clear where it came from. After all, it is obvious that if you write an article about weapons, then you should follow certain rules that are quite simple: if you yourself cannot hold on to the weapons described, then take instructions on how to use them, since there are such guides in every army. The rifle was exported, so there should be such an instruction in English.

Open it and read: “The breech heading is the heading for the breech and the firing lever. Breech head and director shaft shaft are connected by a cotter pin.

What can be translated as follows: “The shutter consists of a shutter head with an ejector, locking rollers with rockers and a liner extractor, as well as the back of the shutter with a locking rod through which the drummer passes, the springs of the striker and the lever of the striker. The shutter head and the back of the shutter are connected with a cotter pin. "


Details of the bolt, from left to right: a bolt head with rollers, a locking pin connecting the back of the bolt to the front, a drummer, a hammer spring, an L-shaped hammer lever, a hammer pin.

Why is it translated that way and not otherwise? Yes, because the English language on 20% more informative than Russian and when translating from English to Russian phrases should be lengthened, and when translated from Russian into English - shortened. The word combination “director shaft” is translated as a “locking rod” according to its functional meaning, since it is this “stem” that pushes the rollers and makes the locking of the shutter. Interestingly, the trigger when firing, located in the receiver on the left, first strikes the L-shaped hinge lever, and that one, in turn, hits the firing pin.


Now the scheme of the shutter from the "Manual ...". As you can see, no “openings for blowing the shutter” are shown on it, there is not even a hint.

And now a little more about the gases blowing the valve and falling through the holes in the larva. Holes on the shutter head really is. But nowhere in the text of the "Instructions ..." about "blowing" there is not a single word! But this is important, isn't it? But no, nothing in the English text is written about it. And there is literally the following: “When you pull the trigger, the trigger hits the lever of the striker, which feeds it forward and smashes the cartridge primer. The pressure of the bottom of the liner at the head of the bolt increases, but the rollers in its sockets prevent the bolt from moving back. It should be emphasized that this is “not a hard lock”, since the rollers are held only by the wedge-shaped surfaces of the locking rod at the rear of the gate, and the rollers are held only by the force of the return spring. When the bullet leaves the barrel and the pressure at the bottom of the sleeve reaches a maximum, it comes out of the chamber approximately one quarter of an inch, and the locking rollers retract inside and push the locking rod back, which allows the bolt head and the spent sleeve to retract. In this case, the locking rod stores enough energy to pull back both parts of the gate. During this movement, the protrusion on the receiver moves the extractor with an empty sleeve along the gate head mirror to the right, after which it is extracted through the window on the receiver. During the backward movement of the bolt, the trigger is cocked and the return spring is compressed. In the rear position, the shutter rests on the buffer. A compressed return spring causes the bolt to move forward. In this case, the cartridge from the magazine is fed into the chamber, and the locking rod at the rear of the bolt squeezes the rollers into their locking slots, after which the weapon is again ready to fire. ”

It seems to me that this is a more understandable description of the operation of the automation of this unusual rifle.

I would add to this text just one phrase, which is absent in the original: "The Revelly grooves (total 8) were made in the chamber starting from the pool entrance, designed to facilitate the movement of the sleeve at the initial stage of extraction when the pressure of gases in the chamber is still too high.". But this is nothing more than an explanation, but otherwise, it is a fairly accurate translation of the text from the “Manual ...”


This photo clearly shows the attachment of the butt to the receiver. The latch is at the bottom.

And now it is worth thinking about the following: should we try to reduce everything to our old terms when describing foreign types of weapons or, on the contrary, to strive to convey the terminology used by the creators of this or that sample as accurately as possible? For example, it is difficult for me to see a “larva” in a massive metal bar, or a “stem” in a rectangular protrusion of another of the same bar. Moreover, together these two bars just form the bolt of the rifle and it is hardly worth disputing.


And here is clearly visible "arctic" trigger in the form of a lever, laid along the receiver.

Well, now let's note some more interesting moments. It turns out that it was the “Mauser system” of StG45 that had the strongest impact on the entire post-war development of weapons business in Europe. The Garand system was not accepted by the Europeans, and in all of their automatic rifles in Belgium, in Spain, and in Germany, and in some other countries, in particular, in the same Czechoslovakia, they used a roller locking mechanism for the barrel. The experience of operating a Swiss rifle has shown that it is a very reliable weapon, which, because of its rather large mass, has less recoil than similar rifles from other countries, and if it also has bipods, it provides very high marks for shooting. Moreover, this was achieved with the use of a powerful rifle cartridge - the standard NATO cartridge 7,62x51!


Arm together with USM and the trigger pulled down.

Well, the design of the rifle as a whole is simple: the receiver is made of pressed steel parts connected by welding. The barrel has a perforated metal casing. The trigger mechanism in the same assembly with a pistol grip and trigger guard is made as a separate module. The fuse, also known as the translator of the fire modes, is located on the trigger box on the left, above the trigger guard. An original feature of the rifle, which it would not be a sin to borrow to our gunsmiths, was the presence of an additional “winter” elongated trigger trigger, which facilitates the shooting of warm gloves. The bolt handle has a large barrel-shaped T-head traditional for Swiss rifles. It is located on the right and remains unmovable when firing.


Diopter sight.

The sight has a diopter adjustable sight with a micrometer screw, which is set from 100 to 650 meters. The rear sight and front sight are enclosed in a ring headphone and mounted on folding grounds. On all rifles Stgw.57 it was possible to install an optical sight Kern of multiplicity 4X or infrared night sights. Rifles of the SIG 510-4 series, the sights of a different design could not be folded, but in the same way they had a diopter-trimmed rear sight.


Rifle with a mounted sniper scope. Bipods on the rifle could be fixed at the base of the trunk, and at the front sight. Near bayonet and carrying belt.

The rifle is equipped with a muzzle brake-flame arrester, which also allows you to fire rifle grenades with idle ammunition. For the latter, in order not to be confused, are shops of white color with a capacity of six rounds. Under the muzzle of the barrel it was also possible to fix the bayonet, which was put on the flame arrester and had a latch on the casing.


"White Shop" and next to it a cartridge for firing grenades.

And finally: data on the number of rifles produced. In Chile, 15 000 was sold around 5000 copies to Bolivia. All in all, in other versions, SIG produced some 585 000 rifles Stg 57 and roughly 100 000 rifles SIG 510. The decision to stop its production was made by 1983, but the last rifles were made in 1985. She was replaced by a SIG SG 550 rifle in the Swiss Army. But this is completely different. story.

TTX rifles SIG 510:
Patron - NATO 7,62X51.
The principle of operation is the recoil of a semi-free shutter, with the choice of the type of fire.
Food - box store on 20 cartridges.
Weight of rifle without cartridges - 4,25 kg.
Overall length - 1016 mm.
Barrel length - 505 mm.
The grooves - 4 rifling (right-sided), mm 305 pitch.
The initial speed of the bullet - 790 m / s.
Rate of fire - 600 v / min.

To be continued ...
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  1. Cat
    +3
    26 August 2018 08: 00
    Vyacheslav Olegovich worked on the mistakes and even refused to demonstrate "women with guns" in favor of technical coverage of the rifle details. Now we are waiting for Viktor Nikolaevich to come out!
    Regards, Sincerely Your Cat!
    R.s. Truth is born in a dispute!
    1. +1
      26 August 2018 20: 38
      As you can see, Vladislav, the exit failed. About a specific translation of English is NOT A WORD. All words boil down to NIZZYA AND I DO NOT LIKE IT. Is this the level of criticism you need? And our famous specialist in genes at all attributed to me what the article does not have. However, he is not alone. It’s not without reason that our minister wrote about the functional illiteracy of 22% of Russians, huh? We look into the text, but what do we see? The main thing - I write: I will send the INSTRUCTION, I WILL SEND THE BOOK ... And at least someone asked? But - NOT TAAAAK !!! Moreover, what is being questioned? Ability to translate text? Well, so you take instruction and translate it yourself !!! But no. Instead: you did not read sopromat. And about Bernstein’s laurels ... Stupid and funny. And strange, but dear Vladislav?
      1. +3
        26 August 2018 20: 50
        Quote: kalibr
        We look into the text, but what do we see?

        Holes. wassat Not, Vyacheslav Olegovich, a hole - it is certainly good for a woman between her legs, but still in drawings and technical descriptions this hole is called.
        1. +1
          26 August 2018 21: 16
          There, too, is not a hole, but something completely different. But this is hardly worth discussing here. And about the "holes" I have already answered below in the text.
      2. 0
        26 August 2018 22: 12
        "About a specific translation of English NOT A WORD."
        Everything is about a specific translation. This is the first. Criticism of mistakes in business does not mean the wrongness of the business itself. This is the second.
        Well, the third. Once you are offended by Benrnstein, we turn to Plekhanov.
        "Criticism is a dangerous enemy of delusions, empty, even a revolutionary phrase, but it is the most reliable support of truth. She is her mother and midwife: she is her friend and breadwinner. Truth feeds on criticism."
        1. 0
          26 August 2018 22: 44
          Quote: Curious
          Everything is about a specific translation. This is the first.

          I didn’t see it. There is a sample translation of the text of English. Give your own, the right option. But Plekhanov ... many can speak beautiful words. What matters to me is that there is a book about Christopher Shant's weapons. It is published. They bought it ... Mine will be better than him. Guaranteed! Everything! And I don’t need anything else.
          1. +1
            26 August 2018 23: 57
            Before you give your option, you can clarify what, in your opinion, rockers? What is their functional purpose?
            1. 0
              27 August 2018 06: 26
              So explain! And then you ask everything, ask ... At least explain something ... as it should!
              1. 0
                27 August 2018 10: 21
                In Russian it is called a yoke.
                1. 0
                  27 August 2018 11: 08
                  This part does not look like a rocker! Neither externally nor functionally ...
                  1. 0
                    27 August 2018 15: 19
                    There are no words, Vyacheslav Olegovich! And what is the rocker you know? This is not at all what women in the village used to carry water on. Maybe you studied the theory of mechanisms and machines, do you know Assur’s groups? And what is a positional cam mechanism can you explain? Designate the cam mechanism steps from memory without peeping.
  2. 0
    26 August 2018 08: 16
    So who has Stoner stole a rifle. Riveted a bracket on the receiver and voila laughing

    Ps. You can consider it a banter
  3. +3
    26 August 2018 08: 34
    In all, in other versions, SIG produced about 585 Stg 000 rifles and about 57 SIG 100 rifles.
  4. +13
    26 August 2018 09: 20
    "Trouble, if the cobbler starts the ovens ..."
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, Bernstein’s laurels do not give you peace? Why this revisionism? Moreover, unlike Bernstein, who was considered one of the most powerful theoreticians of Marxism, you are in technical matters, to put it mildly, in short, very bad. And the mistakes you cite as an example are the result of the efforts of such lovers - gunsmiths, and even complicated by a google translator. Hence, backward blowing, and other nonsense, when ignorance of the subject is superimposed on ignorance of the language and reinforced by unfounded ambitions.
    In terminology.
    "It is clear that this description is given in the typically Soviet tradition of describing the details of weapons -" stem "," larva ""
    This is not a Soviet tradition. This is a technical terminology established in the Russian language that is used among professionals, in the scientific literature, in textbooks for weapons designers, etc. And any person with the appropriate knowledge, looking at the drawing, even if it is in Japanese, will understand where the stem of the shutter is, where is the larva, where is the drummer. And if one undertakes to write, then the corresponding terms will be in the translation.
    Or do you propose replacing all terminology with English? Why not German? Can you imagine the scale and consequences of this?
    Well, and a small illustration of the "Soviet tradition".

    This is a description of the "three-line of 1897.
    I will not disassemble technical mistakes - laziness. I strained last time, maybe there are still volunteers.
    1. +10
      26 August 2018 10: 39
      "For example, it is difficult for me to see a" larva "in a massive metal bar, or a" stem "in a rectangular protrusion of another similar bar ..."
      Of course, it’s difficult, because you don’t know that the part is called so according to their purpose in the design, and not because they are small as a larva or as thin as a stem. But the size and shape can be different.
      Complexities like yours are experienced by a lot of people who are far from knowledge in some areas, but this is not a reason to revise the terminology in these areas ..
      1. +1
        26 August 2018 11: 00
        Over time, both terminology and interpretations become obsolete. Holding onto texts with i is not very smart. The bolt lock is described. This one is different !!! There is no crest, no groove, no beveled groove ... So why not revise it? In this case, your opinion with i versus mine without them.

        And any person with the appropriate knowledge, looking at the drawing, even if it is in Japanese, will understand where the stem of the shutter is, where is the larva, where is the drummer. And if one undertakes to write, then the corresponding terms will be in the translation.
        But in this you are very mistaken. Just open those. instruction to this rifle.

        By the way, I read Mikhailov's book on weapons. Not impressed, though for "professionals".
      2. +5
        26 August 2018 11: 17
        Well, yes, I counted that way to the "holes" (!!!) in the "head" of the shutter, and my interest in this composition flared up ...
        1. 0
          26 August 2018 11: 21
          Did you have to write "holes"?
          1. +4
            26 August 2018 11: 26
            Why "you", ie just me? If the author is an apologist for a special, as I understand it, terminology, then you need to consistently follow in the footsteps of this terminology.
            wink
            1. +1
              26 August 2018 12: 47
              Reread the text carefully again. In the context of "holes" it is used in a humorous way ... Under the diagram it is written - holes.
              1. +3
                26 August 2018 15: 09
                Okay, okay, I'll reread it. However, during the previous events, I did not find any particular "humor" reading. That's why. hi
  5. +6
    26 August 2018 11: 21
    Google translator’s clear creation - “The rifle was shot by Swiss 7,5 x 55 mm GP11 ammunition.”

    Not only Google, but also many translation programs on the Internet since their inception (more than 10 years ago in my opinion) have persistently confused the passive and the active voice. And the standard English construction "bullet hit target" (interlinear translation) is translated as "target hit the bullet". Obviously, professional people-translators were not involved in the development of these translation programs.
    And now, instead of fixing translator programs by professional human translators, there is a fad to use unfinished "artificial intelligence" on neural networks. For example, Yandex Translator suggests correcting the translation it has made. That is, it will "learn" from the translation options offered by Internet users. Considering that the majority of Internet users speak English at the level of high school, they will teach this neural network to do this - just hold on!
  6. +2
    26 August 2018 11: 27
    [quote = Curious] "Trouble, if the shoemaker starts the pies ..."
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, Bernstein’s laurels do not give you peace?

    I try to understand and give a description corresponding to the subject and its modern understanding. Can you do better? Do it !!! Material in front of you. Everything in VO will only thank you.
    1. +7
      26 August 2018 14: 08
      "I am trying to understand and give a description corresponding to the subject and its modern understanding."
      Yes, no need to understand. Everything has already been dismantled and described in a coherent, technical language.
      Vyacheslav Olegovich !!! What is the modern understanding ??? What modern understanding can an author have who is far from technical education, like Alpha Centauri, and an order of magnitude further from technical education in the field of weapons? Well, what are you, really. Give examples of modern Russian-language special literature with a "modern understanding".
      There is no "antiquated misunderstanding". Such an idea can only come from the deepest dilettante. Contact the Institute of High Precision Systems (ICTS) of Tula State University with your idea. I am very interested in what they will answer. If they don't die of laughter.
      You yourself were outraged by the fact that amateurs think of themselves as historians. So be consistent.
      And then "By the way, I read Mikhailov's book on weapons. I was not impressed, though for" professionals. "
      A book on compromising or theory of mechanisms and machines would impress you even less.
      1. 0
        26 August 2018 19: 20
        All this is EMPTY WORDS! At least I’m trying to write about what is interesting and correct enough for me. Or do you dispute my translation of the English text? You can’t write better, so what is it about? And in Tula, I might write ... a raven will not peck out a raven's eyes. Let them help to figure it out ... And - by the way, I will need to ... I will change all the terminology and publish such a book and everything will be as I want. And others can read Mikhailov’s book ... let's see how it impresses them? And the dismantling schemes stripped from the book of the GDR publication are generally a great achievement, and the decoration of this manual. Let the visitors of VO read, it is available ... I can send it, as well as the Manual in English. lang Let them look, look for inaccuracies ....
        1. +1
          26 August 2018 19: 40
          Vyacheslav Olegovich - no comment. Ostap suffered. One question only, but can you also change the GOST?
          1. -1
            26 August 2018 20: 25
            Of course without, because BEST MEANS is to write your BEST MATERIAL. I repeat this for the SECOND TIME. You do not want. In response EMPTY WORDS. What for me words? So you will never convince me of anything. Erudition is not an argument either. I read about Bender. I can’t change GOST. In the book I can write VERY SIMPLE, REASONABLE, AND INTERESTING anything.
            I can send to interested persons the text of the book of Mikhailov and the Manual ...
            1. +2
              26 August 2018 21: 06
              And I never said that you write not interesting. But about "anything" ... Yes, you can really write "anything", but will all these "anything" be of equal quality?
              The Geometry of Spacetime: an Introduction to Special and General Relativity in your translation is unlikely to be up to par. By the way, do you not use such a book?

              This is me to the revolution in terminology.
              1. 0
                26 August 2018 21: 22
                This is just easy to translate: GEOMETRY OF TIME-SPACE. INTRODUCTION TO THE SPECIAL AND GENERAL THEORY OF RELATIVITY.
                1. +1
                  26 August 2018 21: 25
                  Well, I'm not talking about translating the title, I'm about translating a book with this title so that it is simple, clear and interesting. Will you try?
                  1. 0
                    26 August 2018 21: 43
                    Pay - translate anything!
                    1. +1
                      26 August 2018 21: 54
                      I applaud while standing !!! But you translate a couple of chapters as articles for the site. Well, I have to see why I'm paying money. And then all of a sudden you will alter relativistic mechanics.
                      1. 0
                        26 August 2018 22: 36
                        Quote: Curious
                        Well I have to see why I pay money

                        I agree. But the conversation is empty. You don't have enough money to pay for the translation of the entire book + a markup for the complexity of the text. Take a look at the current rates for translating such texts. Therefore, I'd rather not translate any gaps. And I will translate what I know well and for which I will be paid guaranteed. You read my translations almost every day. Where are 900 articles from? "From there!" The time for adventures ends by the age of 60, but I am already over!
      2. +3
        27 August 2018 11: 30
        Quote: Curious
        Vyacheslav Olegovich !!! What is the current understanding ??? What is the modern understanding of an author who is far from technical education, like Alpha Centauri, and from technical education in the field of weapons an order of magnitude further?


        I agree.
        On this resource, many write on ships and criticize the commanders of warships - never once went sailing, even on a boat.
        They write about airplanes - having an idea of ​​them only from books and civil aviation flights.
        They write about small arms, rocket, armored vehicles - without even the makings of a technical education, who have varying degrees of knowledge of terminology.
        The difference in the articles of authors with professional education and authors with a good syllable is much more significant than between the textbook of a professor of technical sciences and methodical MNS in philology - the first understand what they are writing about, the second build logical messages exclusively on their own idea of ​​the subject.
        Other pearls of the authors, except boo-ha-ha, no longer cause

        Well, such a reactionary policy of the resource - if you ask the story to write professional historians, and on technical topics - the relevant specialists with a degree not lower than the "candidate" - who are already full of worries - the topvar will not have enough funds from advertising :)

        Therefore, we tolerate both copywriting and the writings of enthusiasts, varying degrees of "savvy".

        Well seriously, now there are a lot of specialists working in the military-industrial complex in the 60s 70s 80s that could leave a lot of useful things from a historical point of view, not only to a new generation of designers (many of them still teach at various closed departments) , but also to interested readers.
        But many people lack material for a full-fledged book, neither the ability to write and the editorial staff of the topvar could help them in this, without going beyond the Federal Law on state secrets.
        1. 0
          27 August 2018 13: 55
          Good wishes having nothing to do with the real situation!
  7. +3
    26 August 2018 11: 33
    English is 20% more informative than Russian and should be lengthened when translating from English to Russian, and when translating from Russian to English, shorten

    An interesting thought ... To whom does it belong?
    1. +1
      26 August 2018 12: 07
      A textbook on technical translation of the 70's of the last century.
      1. +2
        26 August 2018 12: 09
        Quote: kalibr
        A textbook on technical translation of the 70's of the last century.

        Give me please. title and author.
        1. -2
          26 August 2018 12: 48
          I don’t remember - I studied with 72 for 77 a long time ago. But find the material from Chumikov’s book on PR. There is about the FOG index and the difficulties of its use in Russian texts.
          I found it: The Gunning Nebula Index (or Fog Index, Fog Index) is used as an indicator to determine the level of readability written by the criterion: what level of education do readers need to understand the text.

          For Russian-language texts it is calculated by the formula ... where:
          the number of compound words - the number of words with more than four syllables;
          0.78 - correction factor for the Russian language. Got it, what does that mean?

          Take a look at this - interesting: http: //www.trworkshop.net/forum/viewtopic.php? F = 11 & t = 48606
          1. +6
            26 August 2018 13: 19
            Quote: kalibr
            the number of compound words - the number of words with more than four syllables;

            Not an obvious criterion. Because the longer the word, the more reliable (more) it differs from another word. And in languages ​​with short words, one word differs from another by one letter. And which words are easier to perceive is another question. So, I would not be guided by all these "criteria".
            From my own experience: my translation is often shorter than the original.
            1. 0
              26 August 2018 13: 57
              The whole world uses the FOG index. As for your translations, I did not read them. The coefficient rule helps me all the time, the 4 book in England confirms this and there are a lot of articles both in the USA and Australia (2) and Japan ...
        2. +2
          26 August 2018 14: 25
          What is so surprising here? English has absorbed two: German and French. Accordingly, in it the vocabulary far exceeds other European languages. And you can express your thoughts more accurately using more special words.
    2. +5
      26 August 2018 14: 26
      So you noticed this blunder, because there was a comparative analysis of the information content of different languages ​​in relation to the combat situation. Russian has beaten everyone in brevity. And in technical terms, you can also delve into, for example Panzerkraftwagen and just a tank! I'm not an "Englishman", what I can, I can.
      1. Cat
        +2
        26 August 2018 18: 13
        In the language of foggy albion, a tank will remain a tank!
        Interna history of naming "tanks" - tanks, google you will not regret it!
        1. +1
          26 August 2018 21: 11
          In the language of foggy albion, a tank will remain a tank!
          "That's right, but what kind of tank? An armored vehicle, or a tank?"
          1. +1
            26 August 2018 21: 49
            Armored Car - armored car!
  8. +5
    26 August 2018 11: 48
    Instead of terminological research, it would be better for the author to draw the attention of readers to the photograph
    Shutter device top views:

    Not yet cleaned after firing the shutter. You can clearly see a lot of soot in the gate, which is an irreparable defect of this design, since the gases according to the principle of work brought inside not only the receiver, but even inside the shutter.
    Hence the question: how many failures when shooting this design? Is there such data?
    At least lubricating the bolt of such a design is deliberately creating carbon deposits at the first shots and provoking delays in firing. And not to lubricate - so no one has forgotten the deplorable example of the first battles of the M-16, when they followed Stoner's instructions: "It does not require cleaning and lubrication, gases will blow everything out of the box by themselves."
  9. +3
    26 August 2018 12: 04
    The operating experience of the Swiss rifle showed that this is a very reliable weapon, which, due to its rather large mass, has less impact than similar rifles in other countries, which, even with bipods on it, provides very high accuracy indicators.

    The words. And where are the numbers: the number of delays for so many shots (this is about reliability), the recoil momentum measured by the device (since we are talking about the distribution of the action of this impulse in time, the calculations will not help here) and the median dispersion deviations (this is about the accuracy of fire ) By the way, accuracy, that is, the degree to which STP is combined with the center of the target, is a separate issue.
  10. +1
    26 August 2018 12: 08
    Quote: Svateev
    Hence the question: how many failures when shooting this design? Is there such data?

    Interest Ask. But personally, I have no data, unfortunately.
  11. -1
    26 August 2018 12: 36
    Quote: Svateev
    The words.

    Naturally! And if there was everything else, then the article would be different. But everything is not sucked from the finger. Look at the Forgotten weapon, what is written there and say ...
    1. +2
      26 August 2018 13: 23
      Quote: kalibr
      Look at the Forgotten weapon, what is written there and say ...

      So there, it seems, the numbers are not given, otherwise you would have quoted them here. Only value judgments: like - don't like? Then - golimy advertising.
      1. +1
        26 August 2018 13: 55
        That's it! But the truth is always somewhere out there ...
  12. +2
    26 August 2018 12: 38
    Quote: Kotischa
    R.s. Truth is born in a dispute!

    Very rarely! By the way. In this case, why argue? Take it and write it right ...
    1. +6
      26 August 2018 13: 46
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: Kotischa
      R.s. Truth is born in a dispute!

      Very rarely! By the way. In this case, why argue? Take it and write it right ...

      Truth is not born in disputes, hostility is born in them. Truth is born in discussions, dialogs. Someone said that when a discussion turns into an argument, the dialogue should be stopped, because when a person starts to argue, he is no longer interested in the truth, and only the goal is to win the argument, well, in other words personal ambitions ... hi
      1. +2
        26 August 2018 13: 54
        I agree completely because I wrote ...
  13. +2
    26 August 2018 15: 16
    Quote: voyaka uh
    What is so surprising here? English has absorbed two: German and French. Accordingly, in it the vocabulary far exceeds other European languages. And you can express your thoughts more accurately using more special words.

    English is robust and absorbed, no matter how wild it sounds on this site, Turkic. Or vice versa. But this is linguistics, transformation, distortion of words, etc. Another opera. But, they write, conferences are held ...
    1. +1
      26 August 2018 15: 56
      There is such a word Borrowings (borrowing). In high school this is a whole topic in lexicology. Dial and see how many in English borrowing from a wide variety of languages.
  14. +1
    26 August 2018 15: 36
    Quote: andrewkor
    Russian arranged everything in brevity

    In some cases, yes!
  15. 0
    26 August 2018 15: 53
    Quote: andrewkor
    Offline
    andrewkor (Andrey Korchuganov) Today, 14: 26
    So you noticed this blunder. Ved was a comparative analysis of the information content of various languages ​​in relation to the combat situation.

    This is not a mistake. These are different things - war and peace! I’m telling you as a specialist. I have a university diploma of a school teacher
  16. +4
    26 August 2018 19: 22
    In modern Russian-language weapons terminology, the words "larva" and "stem" are not used. Instead, the terms "bolt" (English analogue of bolt) and "bolt carrier" (carrier in the meaning of "carriage") are used.

    No powder gases are diverted through any holes / openings in the shutter for a simple reason - the fired sleeve serves as an obturator (this is one of its functions). The rollers are recessed between the bolt and the bolt frame purely kinematically under the influence of bevels in the side walls of the receiver.

    "The Europeans did not accept the Garand system, and on all their automatic rifles in Belgium, Spain, Germany, and some other countries, in particular, in the same Czechoslovakia, they used a roller locking mechanism" - damn it, now in In Europe, the most widespread small arms are machine guns, rifles and machine guns with a gas engine ("Garanda systems" in the author's imagination). A few G3 and FAMAS semi-breechblock samples have been put into storage for arming reservists in the case of TMV.

    In general: "Authorpishiescho" laughing

    PS A request to the VO administration to publish Vyacheslav's opuses about firearms exclusively in the "Opinions" section, everyone will be fine - and his opuses will grow in number, and we will laugh heartily, and will not lower our level to VO.
  17. -1
    26 August 2018 19: 47
    Quote: Operator
    In modern Russian-language weapons terminology, the words "larva" and "stem" are not used. Instead, the terms "bolt" (English analogue of bolt) and "bolt carrier" (carrier in the meaning of "carriage") are used.

    This is not for you to write to you, but to Kourios. It is he who stands for the stem and larva! I have just such a translation !!! Read the text...
  18. 0
    26 August 2018 19: 50
    Quote: Operator
    No powder gases are diverted through any holes / openings in the shutter for a simple reason - the fired sleeve serves as an obturator (this is one of its functions).

    Did I write this? Is this my text or did you read the text obliquely?
    1. +2
      26 August 2018 20: 40
      You obviously messed up genres - literary criticism with technical literature laughing
  19. -1
    26 August 2018 19: 55
    Your deeds are amazing, Lord! One refers to a book with yaty and izhitsa - which place in the waste paper. Another reads obliquely and sees only what he thinks ... Aw, are you drunk or how do you go into something? Who needs to FIRST, read what is at stake - SURROUNDING GUIDE from a ZIG rifle. I have, I’ll send ... The book of the recommended Mikhailov, but how does Kurisos himself advise ... too. Well read. Give the address in a letter to VO - I will send it to the post office. But do not be so superficial. Haste is good when you catch fleas.
    1. +4
      26 August 2018 20: 38
      What the hell in the text of the article on the Czech arrow to arrange a philological argument with the deceased authors of the instructions on the Swiss rifle?

      What kind of antediluvian English-language text do you propose as an example of modern Russian-language terminology - your "bolt head" alone is worth a lot laughing

      Say, should you drink less?
      1. 0
        26 August 2018 21: 07
        Quote: Operator
        What kind of antediluvian English-language text do you propose as an example of modern Russian-language terminology - your "bolt head" alone is worth a lot

        Say, should you drink less?

        Did I suggest? I give their translation. And you really should drink in moderation ... Is not it?
        1. +3
          26 August 2018 21: 39
          "After all, it is obvious that if you are writing an article about a weapon, then you should adhere to certain rules, which are very simple: if you yourself cannot hold on to the described weapon, then take instructions on how to use it," these are your words.

          So we must take not the instruction of a shaggy year, but the modern domestic specialized technical literature - everything is extremely clear, unambiguous and relevant there.

          PS With the "bolt head" you made my day - I immediately imagined the continuation of terminological innovations in the form of an extractor / "erector" and a chamber / "vaginal place") laughing
          1. 0
            26 August 2018 21: 42
            Human intelligence is manifested primarily in the ability to stop on time.
      2. 0
        28 August 2018 06: 58
        Operator (Andrey) 26 August 2018 20: 38
        +3

        On horseradish in the text of the article on the Czech arrow

        Is it in Czech?
        In my opinion the rifle is Swiss. And how did you not notice? It can be seen indeed "under the fly" ... And the pluses are the same ...
  20. -1
    26 August 2018 19: 59
    Quote: Operator
    Damn, now in Europe the most widespread small arms are machine guns, rifles and machine guns with a gas engine ("Garanda systems" in the author's imagination). A few G3 and FAMAS semi-breechblock samples have been put into storage for arming reservists in the case of TMV.

    Fritter. Do not confuse NOW and that time. It was exactly like that at that time. NOT NOW! Foam brain include ...
    1. +4
      26 August 2018 20: 34
      "Then" (in the late 1940s), the most massive weapon in Europe was the WWII weapon. In the 1950s, the AK-47 / AKM and its numerous clones in the ATS countries became the most massive in Europe, as well as the American rifle in service with the US Expeditionary Forces in Western Europe. Since the early 1970s, NATO and the Internal Affairs Directorate began rearmament from high-impulse small arms to low-impulse weapons, but again with a gas engine

      The French, Germans and Turks with G3 and FAMAS, as well as any pot-bellied little thing like the Swiss against the Soviet-American background, were a minority. Today's transition of these minorities to a gas engine fully confirmed their mistake and the correct choice of the USSR and the USA.
  21. 0
    26 August 2018 21: 02
    Quote: Operator
    Today's transition of these minorities to a gas engine fully confirmed their mistake and the correct choice of the USSR and the USA.

    Here you are right for all 100%. But more on that in the article later. Immediately ALL DO NOT BE CAPTURED!
  22. 0
    26 August 2018 21: 06
    Quote: Operator
    0
    To hell

    Well, why so rude? Rudeness is not an argument!
  23. +2
    26 August 2018 22: 41
    kalibr,
    Oh, now you called me a bastard. But I’ll pay you two articles according to the website estimate, so your mournful work will not be lost.
  24. +1
    27 August 2018 06: 20
    Quote: Curious
    +1
    kalibr,
    Oh, now you called me a bastard. But I’ll pay you two articles according to the website estimate, so your mournful work will not be lost.

    Why a beggar? Didn't call names! "This is not our method." It's just one thing to write VO on your own, and another to order someone. According to the website's estimate, you can pay, of course. But ... would it be interesting for me? Will it go somewhere where I need it. So the estimate has nothing to do with it.
    1. +1
      27 August 2018 10: 41
      Money is half the battle. The second half is the translation itself. Having quite a lot of experience working with translators in different circumstances (as Michman likes to write here, I even had up to 20 translators subordinate), I can imagine what happens when the translator is not in the subject, but just knows the language, even very well. And how because of this, on the verge of collapse, contracts with a large number of zeros are hanging, and some who have been hanging on the verge of a heart attack have also observed.
      Therefore, good technical translators, and even with knowledge of a narrow subject matter - they are by weight of gold, there are very few of them. Because we have in the network and the gates are blown.
      1. +1
        27 August 2018 11: 05
        Quote: Curious
        Therefore, good technical translators, and even with knowledge of a narrow subject matter - they are by weight of gold, there are very few of them.

        Yes, it is. But we have ALL experts good at its weight in gold. and ALL are few! Are there many?
        1. +1
          27 August 2018 15: 03
          There are such specialists, there is even an excess of them. But site rules prohibit calling this specialty.
          1. +1
            27 August 2018 20: 05

            Ah this ... well, to decide that they are good, you have to try them, and this is dangerous and expensive.
  25. 0
    28 August 2018 10: 42
    Quote: Curious
    Maybe you studied the theory of mechanisms and machines, do you know Assur’s groups?

    Have you studied small arms and have a diploma in the design of such weapons? You are as much an amateur as I am.
    1. 0
      30 August 2018 23: 49
      Small arms, this is a mechanism that is created and operates according to the relevant laws common to all mechanisms. Therefore, all mechanics study theoretical mechanics, as the science of the general laws of mechanical motion and the interaction of material bodies and the theory of mechanisms and machines, as a scientific discipline on the general methods of research, construction, kinematics and dynamics of mechanisms and machines and on the scientific foundations of their design. Next is the specialization. But the base is common to all. Therefore, in this matter (the work of the mechanism and its main parts), I am a professional, and you are an amateur.
  26. 0
    29 August 2018 20: 56
    Interesting article.

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