"For the Soviets without the Bolsheviks"

100 years ago, 8 and 17 in August 1918, inspired by White’s successes in Yekaterinburg and Kazan, were revolted by opponents of the Bolsheviks in Izhevsk and Votkinsk. The slogan of the uprising was "For the Soviets without the Bolsheviks."

The Background of the Uprising

The reasons for the uprising were quite traditional for the troubles of that time. They were based on gross errors of the Soviet government, which pursued its policy without taking into account the specifics of local conditions (the situation was similar in the North Caucasus, on the Don, etc.). The workers of Izhevsk and Votkinsk, together with their families, constituted about 70% of the population of these cities, and belonged to a special type of Ural proletariat. At the Izhevsk plant in May 1918, 26,7 thousand workers were employed, at Votkinsk - 6,3 thousand. For decades, the way of life that took shape in Izhevsk and Votkinsk was inherited (often even the place of work was inherited), high level of qualification, high income workers at the expense of state orders, close ties with the countryside, their own houses with developed subsidiary farming, the Bolsheviks regarded literacy as “bourgeois” and were perceived as clearly hostile. Understanding that in the indigenous mass of highly skilled factory workers they could not find solid support, they relied solely on the incoming element that appeared in factories during the war years, that is, on first-generation workers. This caused a conflict.

The Revolution and the Civil War led to a deterioration in life — production collapsed, living standards declined (it almost halved), job cuts, the introduction of a rationing system, etc. One of the measures that hit the local workers and peasants, became the prohibition of free trade, declared by the Bolsheviks in the framework of the policy of "war communism". All this was further aggravated by disputes over the elections to the Soviets, suspicion of workers returning from the front, promiscuous requisitions and arrests.

It is worth noting that the Bolsheviks had weak positions in the region. Izhevsk and Votkinsk were centers of the maximalist movement (Socialist-Maximalists) of Russia. They believed that building a new society was “not on the shoulder of one any part of the people”, and it was necessary to establish “democracy by the people” in the form of a “Labor Republic”. The maximalists opposed the ruling party usurping the entire power, the party should not have replaced the labor self-government of the soviets; being supporters of federalism, they also criticized the Bolsheviks for concentrating all power functions in the hands of the central government and the central organs of the Bolshevik Party; they rejected the Bolshevik nationalization (nationalization) of production and were supporters of the socialization (socialization) of production, that is, its transfer to the self-government of labor collectives, etc.

As a result, mistakes made by the Bolsheviks, especially during the implementation of the agrarian policy, led to an increase in discontent among the residents of Izhevsk and nearby villages. The popularity of the Bolsheviks fell, and in April-May 1918, the number of their organizations in Izhevsk decreased from 1700 to 250 members. On the other hand, the Mensheviks and Right Social Revolutionaries strengthened their positions in the region. The Bolsheviks twice (at the end of May and at the end of June) were defeated at the elections to the Izhevsk Soviet. After that, with the help of reinforcements from Kazan, the Bolsheviks and maximalists dispersed him, and the power in the city passed first to the new executive committee, in which the majority was for the Bolsheviks and maximalists, and then to Izhevsk military revolutionary headquarters.

Insurrection

The launch of 1918 in May along the Transsib of the Czechoslovak Corps and the Russian anti-Bolshevik (white) organizations of the Volga region and Siberia, which caused yet another tightening of the Bolshevik policy, became an occasion for an uprising. The organizational centers of the uprising were the "Frontalist Unions" created by the initiative of the former soldiers. S. Soldatov was elected chairman of the Izhevsk Union - his ranks consisted of about 4 thousand people, of whom about 200 officers. At the head of the Votkinsk Union was the Council of front-line soldiers - Chairman V.I. Merzlyakov. He united about 800 people.

The unsuccessful attempt of the Bolsheviks to produce 7 August 1918 by a violent mobilization of Izhevsk workers into the Red Army, after news of the fall of Kazan, became the immediate reason for the uprising. The Union of Frontline Soldiers demanded to arm and equip all those mobilized at the plant and send them all together. The Bolsheviks refused to arm the mobilized, saying that they will be given weapon later. This, however, did not suit front-line soldiers who did not want to leave the city. In response, they issued an ultimatum on immediate armament, the Bolsheviks refused to do so.

From early in the morning of August 8, rallies began in Izhevsk, at which front-line soldiers and workers disarmed several red policemen. Then an armory was seized, and officers from the Union of Front-line Soldiers formed organized groups of insurgents from the insurgents who, seizing the factory and the Zarechnaya part of the city, attacked the few Red Army soldiers who had attached themselves to the Izh River in the Highland of Izhevsk. The victory of the rebels was facilitated by the fact that the main forces of the Bolsheviks and maximalists went to the front, and only a few dozen Red Army men and policemen remained in the city. As a result, the rebels had a significant numerical superiority. On August 8, there were several thousand people in their units, including 300 officers. During the day, it was possible with red machine-gun fire to restrain attempts by the insurgents to break through the bridge on Izhe to the Council building. However, towards the night, realizing that they could not hold the city, the Reds retreated. By the end of August 8, Izhevsk was completely controlled by the rebels. During the retreat from Izhevsk, the Bolsheviks did not have time to blow up the armory, and the rebels seized about two million rounds of ammunition, 12 grenade crates, 11 Maxim machine guns.

On August 8, the Votkinsk Bolsheviks, gathering their supporters in the outskirts of the city into a detachment of 9 fighters, tried to regain control of Izhevsk, but their detachment landed in a rebel-organized ambush and was defeated. The same fate befell the second detachment, sent on August 180 towards Izhevsk from Agryz. The head of Izhevsk Cheka, A. S. Babushkin, who was able to flee the city, armed and organized a detachment of forty people with one machine gun and on two railway platforms moved towards Izhevsk. However, ten kilometers from the city, the Reds were ambushed. The detachment was defeated, and Babushkin himself - captured (later he was executed).

In the city, freedom of trade was restored, which attracted local peasants to the rebel side, increased the wages of workers, and abolished the death penalty. However, this did not prevent the rebels from “not distributing” it to the Bolsheviks: already in the first days of the uprising, local Bolshevik leaders, the military commissar and the Cheka chairman, the police chief and other representatives of Soviet power were killed. The main task for the new leadership was to support the release of military products at the Izhevsk plant, which was necessary for the creation of a rebel army. Many of the measures carried out by the Bolsheviks as part of their working-class policy were not revoked by the new authorities in order not to lose the support of the workers. So, the old wage rates were left, the previous decrees of the Soviet government on working conditions and social guarantees were upheld.

Following the example of Izhevsk, the anti-Bolshevik movement in Votkinsk intensified. Underground headquarters 8 August asked to send weapons to Votkinsk as soon as possible. In response to their request, a company of 250 people was formed in Izhevsk, each fighter carrying two rifles. This company was commanded by former colonel Vlasov. 17 August rebels approached Votkinsk. Votkinsk Bolsheviks were preparing for the defense of the city, but the Izhevsk company bypassed Votkinsk and attacked from the direction from which the defenders did not expect an attack. In addition, after the start of the battle, the Votkinsk front-line soldiers attacked the Red Army soldiers from the rear. The street fight lasted three hours. Reds were defeated and fled. The former captain G.N. Yuriev was appointed military commander of Votkinsk.

17 August was formed by the Headquarters of the Votkinsk People’s Army, whose chief was Yuriev. The commander of the armed forces of Votkinsk became captain Nilov, replaced by September 2 captain Zhuravlev. In Votkinsk, 1-i and 2-i rifle companies, an equestrian detachment and a battery of 2-guns were formed.

"Union of Front-line Soldiers" Izhevsk 1918 year

New power


In their appeal to the population, the rebels announced that the city recognized the Samara Komuch as the only legitimate authority. The local council was declared "only a class working organization." New elections were held to the Izhevsk Soviet, to which the Bolsheviks, Maximalists and Anarchists were not admitted. The Council, however, existed for a short time: already 17 of August, on the day of the victory of the uprising in Votkinsk, the Izhevsk Council transferred power to a new body - the Prikam Committee of members of the Constituent Assembly, which exercised its power in Izhevsk until 7 November 1918 of the year. Prikamsky Komuch consisted of three persons - deputies of the Constituent Assembly from the Social Revolutionary Party: V. I. Buzanova (head of the local committee of the Social Revolutionary Party), A. D. Karyakin, N. I. Yevseyev. September 9 after the introduction of one more member - K.S. Shulakov, the so-called “top four” was formed. In Votkinsk and Sarapul special commissioners were appointed as county commissioners. The official slogans of Komuch were “programming the people's power in the face of the Constituent Assembly”, “overthrowing the Commissar”, and later “loyalty to the allies” and “fighting German-Bolshevism”.

A new power shift occurred after the formation of the Ufa Directory on September 23. Prikamsky Komuch was abolished. October 14 Yevseyev concentrated in his hands the full civilian power in the Kama region as an extraordinary authorized director of the Directory, and Buzanov, Karyakin and Shulakov were appointed his deputies. After the coup in Omsk, the headquarters of the Prikamsky People’s Army decided to make an alliance with Kolchak, recognizing its power as inevitable and necessary, although contrary to the "norms of democracy." As a result, the Izhevsk and Votkinsk units after the defeat of the uprising became part of the Kolchak army and took part in hostilities up to the 1922 year.

Military establishment. Victory Izhevsk-Votkinsk army

Aware of the inevitability of the punitive operation of the Red Army, the leaders of the uprising focused on the organization of the upcoming defense of the city. Already on August 9 “The Defense Headquarters was elected by the Union of Frontline Soldiers: Tsyganov, Soldatova and Zebziev. 10 August 1918. The Executive Committee of the Council announced the formation of the Izhevsk People’s Army, appointing Captain Tsyganov as commander and chief of staff - gendarme colonel Vlasov. Both soon declared themselves unsuitable for their posts for health reasons: on August X, the first was replaced by Col. DI Fedichkin, and the second by Ya. I. Zebziev.

The success of the rebels during the Izhevsk-Votkinsk uprising contributed to the fact that in their hands from the very beginning there were many weapons of their own production. The base for the formation of the local army was the Izhevsk Arms Plant - one of three military factories (along with Tula and Sestroretsky), supplying the Russian army with three-line rifles of the Mosin system. Izhevsk Arms Plant produced up to 2500 rifles per day, and in Votkinsk shells were made for artillery shells (up to 2000 per day), armored trains and sheathed river vessels. In addition, the factories were made bayonets, gun locks, parts of machine guns, cold steel, barbed wire was manufactured for the construction of obstacles. Thus, the rebel army had no problems with small arms (rifles even gave to the peasants in exchange for bread), the situation with the cartridges was worse. Therefore, an attempt was made to establish an independent production of cartridges at the Izhevsk Arms Plant: sleeves for them were assembled at the places of battles for reuse, while the bullets were made of copper or brass. But the cartridges were of very poor quality.

The workers-insurgents themselves produced weapons and were able to use them to handle much better than the Red Army recruited from among the peasants and unskilled workers. Also at hand was a large number of war veterans of the past world war, including officers, military officials. This made it possible to immediately begin the formation of semi-partisan, but full-fledged, regular armed units. The first to be formed were a company of artillery technicians (from among officials and apprentices) Kurakin and a detachment of front soldiers Fedichkin (300 fighters). 14 - 19 August The detachment of front-line soldiers was replenished with 800 volunteers and was deployed in several separate companies (according to 100 - 250 fighters). The companies were united in "fronts" - consolidated detachments in certain directions; in a calm atmosphere, they alternately carried guard guard, in the event of an alarm, they acted on the attacked position completely. The main fronts were Kazan, Glazovsky (Northern), Golyansky (from the Kama side), Malmyzhsky (Western) and Agryzsky (Southern). Each of them was connected by telephone communication both with neighboring fronts and with Izhevsk itself, which played the role of the rear. Field fortifications were erected on the most dangerous sites with the help of the civilian population. Due to military trophies, the rifle units were reinforced with 32 machine guns. We managed to form our own artillery - 2 four-gun batteries. In late August, the total number of Izhevsk military units reached 6300 people (300 officers, 3000 front-line soldiers and about 3000 workers).

Member of the Russian-Japanese and the First World War. Colonel 13 of the Turkestan Rifle Regiment. Commander of the armed forces of the rebels during the Izhevsk-Votkinsk uprising Dmitry Ivanovich Fedichkin (1885 — 1966)

As a result, the rebels were able to repel the first attacks of the Red Army on Izhevsk. After receiving the news of the uprising in Izhevsk, the command of the 2 Red Army quickly formed several units that received orders to take Izhevsk. On August 14, a detachment of the Red Army commanded by A. Cheverev began to move to Izhevsk from the Kazan Railway, but was ambushed in 6 km from the city and was completely destroyed. On August 17, another red-numbered 2200 man, reinforced with 6 cannons, was repelled from the city. August 18 began an offensive on Izhevsk from the east, from the pier Golyany. A detachment of Red Army men numbering about 6 thousand people under the command of V. A. Antonov-Ovseenko, composed of the most combat-ready units (Latvian riflemen, revolutionary sailors and Austro-Hungarian "internationalists"), reached the village of Zavyalovo and immediately to the southern suburbs of Izhevsk, starting shelling of the city. However, here the Reds were stopped by the detachments of Colonel Fedichkin, and then, due to the considerable superiority of the rebels, they were blocked by reinforcements coming from the city. Red Army soldiers were forced to go on the defensive, and after they ran out of ammunition, were defeated and retreated. Significant trophies fell into the hands of the workers of Izhevsk.

On August 23, by order of the commander of the 3rd Army, Berzin, a detachment of the Red Army under the command of the sailor Bulkin, who ordered to capture Votkinsk, landed on the pier Galevo. The detachment consisted of about 600 bayonets (1st Soviet regiment) with 3 armored cars and two guns, it was supported by the fire of the Perm court flotilla. However, Votkinsk rebels, using numerical superiority, surrounded and completely defeated the Reds. On August 30, Bulkin’s detachment received reinforcements — 4 Chinese companies, up to 400 bayonets and 250 sailors in total. The new detachment, renamed the Special Kama Brigade, was headed by the chief of staff of the 3rd Army, U. Aplok, in total more than 3000 people were under his command. On September 10, a battle took place near Babki, during which Votkinsk rebels defeated the Reds, who lost more than 2000 killed, captured and deserted.

On August 31, Captain Kurakin’s detachment occupied Sarapul without a fight. The capture of Sarapul, in which the headquarters of the 2 Army was located, turned out to be a complete surprise for the Reds and led to a temporary disruption of command and control of the Red Army in the Prikamsky sector of the front.

As the scale of the uprising grew, the army was reorganized. The commander of the Izhevsk People’s Army, Colonel Fedichkin, became the commander-in-chief of the troops of the Prikamsky Territory, and the headquarters of the Izhevsk People’s Army — the General Headquarters of the Prikamsky Territory. In September-October, companies in the People's Army were reduced to larger military units, up to and including brigades. 18 of Votkinsky Factory 1 of August (commander GI Mudrynin) and 17 of Votkinsky named after the Constituent Assembly (commander Rusanov, then Drobinin) of the regiment are formed in Votkinsk 2 of September; September 20 - 3-th Saygatsky regiment (colonel Zhulanov), as well as 1-th and 2-th Reserve battalions; October 19 -4-th Votkinsk Regiment named after the Allied Powers Regiment (commander Bolonkin). All the regiments had a three-battalion composition, together they formally formed the 1 and 2 Votkinsk brigades. The existing 9 artillery of October was consolidated into the Votkinsk artillery division (captain Kurbanovsky, after his death - lieutenant Almazov) as part of the 1 and 2 of the lungs and 3 of the equestrian mountain batteries of the four-guns. Equestrian units were presented 1-m Votkinsk cavalry squadron. The total number of army was about 15 thousand people.

In Izhevsk People's Army, which at various times comprised from 50 to 120 companies, mostly peasant, the process of consolidation of parts proceeded somewhat slower. 22 September 1918 was formed 1 th Izhevsk rifle battalion, 24 September deployed in 1 th Izhevsk rifle regiment (commander Mikhailov); October 5 was formed three-battalion commander in chief; October 17 - 2-th Izhevsk rifle regiment (Lyapunov) and the Reserve battalion; October 26 began the formation of the 3 of the Izhevsk rifle regiment (Khlebnikov), which remained unfinished. The available artillery in the number of 13 guns was Izhevsk artillery division of 5 batteries. The Izhevsk cavalry division was created from the horse units. The total number of army was approaching 10 thousand people. After the capture of Sarapul, the rebels tried to form the Sarapulsky People's Army, but without much success (there was no large-scale production here). Extremely small (about 2 thousand people), without good command personnel and not distinguished by proper discipline, this “army” already in September 1918 was broken.

At this time there was an active identification and prosecution of supporters of the Bolsheviks. Even relatives of the Reds were subjected to arrest. More than 3000 people (including captured Red Army men) were imprisoned in the holds of barges at the Golyana wharf. The rebels were especially cruel to “foreign mercenaries” in the service of the Bolsheviks - Latvians, Hungarians and Chinese. During one of the mass executions, an 100 man was shot, despite the formal abolition of the death penalty in Izhevsk.

Results

Thus, by the beginning of September 1918, the rebels extended their influence to a vast area with a population of over 1 million, which included part of the territories of the Vyatka and Perm provinces. In the north, the Vyatka-Perm railway was threatened, where people from Izhevsk approached Glazov, and Votkinsk residents - to Art. Cap In the west, Izhevsk residents in the Malmyzh-Urzhum section of the city came very close to the r. Vyatka; in the south, they managed to occupy Sarapul and develop operations west of the Kazan-Yekaterinburg road, displacing the enemy from the hub station. Agryz. In the east, Votkinsk residents were located not far from Okhansk.

In the military-strategic sense, the Izhevsk-Votkinsk uprising had a significant impact on the position of the Eastern Front of the Red Army, mainly on the actions of the 2 and 3 armies. 2-I army was actually defeated by the rebels, after which it had to be created again and until the very end of the uprising it was chained to the Izhevsk-Votkinsk district, unable to assist the front. In turn, the 3 Army was forced to allocate part of its forces to act against the insurgent Votkinsk. In addition, significant forces were diverted to protect the Vyatka-Perm railway, which was threatened to be cut by the rebels. This weakened the Red Army, and the attack on Yekaterinburg, according to the Vatsetis plan, did not take place. After the Reds recaptured Kazan, they were able to achieve some success on the Volga line and move forward. But to the north, the rebels still chained the big forces of the Red Army for two months, which allowed White to focus on the Perm direction.

The rebels lasted until November - on the night of 7-8 in November Izhevsk was left, in November 11 - Votkinsk. The rebels retreated to Kama and later fought with the Reds as part of the Izhevsk and Votkinsk divisions of the Russian army, Admiral A. Kolchak.

Izhevtsy in the army of Kolchak

Comments

[Conductor]

Something similar to our time. Somewhat off topic, but if during an annual conversation with the people. Prezik, forced to solve issues at the level of the head of the municipality, is that what you Putin created?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Conductor

Something similar with our time.

What side ?!

Quote: Conductor

Somewhat off topic, but if during an annual conversation with the people. Prezik, forced to solve issues at the level of the head of the municipality, is that what you Putin created?

What he created together with the people of Russia-Got a good mark in the elections to the Duma and the President. Who and where got the most?
If such a conversation with the people were in France or the USA (but there is no such frank and direct conversation there), then we would hear much more terrible things from, for example, Saint-Genis, where the Frenchmen survived from the city, beaten and humiliated, or from Ferguson, where they shoot like a partridge. And there, even in manual mode, you will not solve anything.

1, Why your comment, to Topic articles not related to ANYTHING? Exercise on pension topics.
A teper on the topic:

The Bolshevik bet was made exclusively on alien element

Their bet was all the time on lumpen, deserters and other lower layers — scum of society (criminals for them are generally “socially close”). For these layers, the slogans of the Bolsheviksto select, divide, force, destroy "enemies"- were clear and understandable.
For NORMAL workers of Izhevsk, the colors of the proletariat Russia and Russia in general, it was wildness. Their slogans of “Soviets without Bolsheviks” were a reaction to the idiocy of the latter.

rebel forces subsequently fought with the Reds in the Izhevsk and Votkinsk divisions of the Russian Army, Admiral A. Kolchak.

Divisions from workerswere the elite of the troops Russian state.

[Basil50]

The author searched and, as usual, found the Bolsheviks' guilt.
In the Urals, during the Civil War, brainwashed people are not very literate. That is how they know how to lie and how skillful they are in the lies of liberals we see today on television. So it is not surprising that there were those who believed and fought for the Red-beetles under the RED Banner in the ranks of the whites. The last of these * rebels * along with the Semenovites left for China.
An example of * brainwashing * is seen in Europe and Ukraine. It comes to jokes, but those who believe in it are in Ukraine.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vasily50

In the Urals, during the Civil War, brainwashed people who are not very literate.

That's right! And these were precisely the lumpen from the social bottom-support of the Bolsheviks (along with "socially close" criminals and foreign mercenaries), and not the ELITE of the working class of Russia, Izhevtsy. But literate Izhevsk Bolshevik tales just do not rub: they quickly saw through them and opposed not for life, but to death.

[Sultanbek]

Quote: Olgovich

Quote: Vasily50

In the Urals, during the Civil War, brainwashed people who are not very literate.

That's right! And these were precisely the lumpen from the social bottom-support of the Bolsheviks (along with "socially close" criminals and foreign mercenaries), and not the ELITE of the working class of Russia, Izhevtsy. But literate Izhevsk Bolshevik tales just do not rub: they quickly saw through them and opposed not for life, but to death.

Oh, this "elitism" ... Who has interestingly given you the right to appoint these or other groups of the population to the "ELITES" (that is, in capital letters). At will, just based on their preferences during the GW.
My grandfather was a worker - from 11 years old in the mine. You rank him among the lumpen because he fought for the Reds. And since he did not speak very correctly and with an accent until the end of his life, declare him a foreign hired man.
The cause of the upheaval is the degeneration and intellectual impotence of the pre-revolutionary "elites." These educated layers discredited the very idea of ​​elitism. The people decided that living with their minds would be more productive
And the article is biased. The blissful picture of the flourishing of plants after the uprising is not credible. And this is against the backdrop of a national disaster.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sultanbek

Who is interesting gave you the right to appoint to the "ELITE" (exactly so - in capital letters)

1. Learn what Uppercase letters are
2. Learn what the word "elite" means. And then you will understand that highly skilled workers are the elite.

Quote: Sultanbek

My grandfather was a worker - from 11 years old in the mine. You rank him among the lumpen because he fought for the Reds. And since he did not speak very correctly and with an accent until the end of his life, declare him a foreign hired man.

illiterate people make up their minds much easier than competent Izhevsk people. By the way, the overwhelming majority in the army were mobilized by force, most likely your grandfather too.

Quote: Sultanbek

The cause of the upheaval is the degeneration and intellectual impotence of the pre-revolutionary "elites." These educated layers discredited the very idea of ​​elitism. The people decided that living with their minds would be more productive

Cause-World War and associated difficulties and hardships. At this time, a stab was stabbed in the back by traitors who took advantage of the difficulties

Quote: Sultanbek

The people decided that living with their minds would be more productive

The Bolsheviks NEVER were a people and did NOT represent it: see the elections to the CSS.

Quote: Sultanbek

And the article is biased. The good picture is not credible flourishing factories after the rebellion. And this is against the backdrop of a national disaster.

Not all Bolsheviks were able to destroy immediately, but they also destroyed factories.

[Sweetheart]

Quote: Olgovich

The Bolsheviks NEVER were a people and did NOT represent it: see the elections to the CSS.

Look at what? On fantasies about CSS? Why? Make sure the mediocrity of this venture and its complete inadequacy of the current situation?
There is no QUORUM. There is no solution to your fantasy US. Enough to write nonsense with fanatics on quasi-historical topics.
The quote is long .. but it accurately characterizes all your writings here.
“If we compare the nonsense that our lovers of cadets and crunching French rolls are now carrying on various portals with what they said about the first post-revolutionary events in Soviet times, we can come to a paradoxical conclusion - in Soviet times, much less lied about the events of that period. than talk nonsense now.

Rather, in Soviet times, they simply kept silent about some events, but did not carry the absolute nonsense that is being carried at present. Now myths have become widespread that only the Bolsheviks and Vladimir Lenin personally are to blame for everything that happened at the beginning of the century, approximately the same way as now all the misfortunes of our time, up to volcanic eruptions and tsunamis, are attributed to Vladimir Putin. "Https: // cont.ws/@ralexd/284893
But if this is not to the liking of crisp-baked dreams, there is another interpretation of the myth about the "consistency" of the US
The interim government twice postponed the holding of elections to the Constituent Assembly. The deadline was set for November 12, when the Bolsheviks held these elections. They did not depart one iota from the decision of the Provisional Government. From 44 to 45 million people, that is, about 60% of voters, participated in the elections.
https://www.kp.ru/daily/26784.7/3818076/
The Provisional Government appointed by the self-proclaimed body of the ECHA and the Soviets of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies elected by the people. The Petrograd Council established a supervisory committee whose goal was to monitor the policies of the Provisional Government. While Chkheidze and Kerensky, members of the VKGD, were at the head of the Petrosoviet, problems in the relationship between the two authorities were resolved. But as the revolution in Russia developed, the power in the Petrosoviet legally, electively moved to the Bolsheviks and the friction between the Provisional Government and the Soviets of workers 'and soldiers' deputies intensified to a direct confrontation. While the Provisional Government was losing authority among the population, the Petrosoviet, as a representative body, strengthened its position. The existing dual power was supported by the diplomacy of the allies, who had contacts with the interim government and the Petrosoviet. Http://www.proza.ru/2010/05/19/467
So your mythology, olgovich, about the viability of the CSS is just an attempt on false arguments. Try to replay the events of a hundred years ago.

[Nagaibak]

Olgovich "it is much easier for illiterate people to fool their heads than for literate Izhevsk residents. By the way, the overwhelming majority of them were mobilized by force, most likely your grandfather too."
Fuck the bullshit as usual. A literate illiterate - some kind of nonsense.))) My grandfather was forcibly mobilized into Kolchak's white army. From where he ran to the Reds at the first opportunity, hijacking a cart (according to a family legend) with telephones. ))) Many fled from them. Nobody was going to fight for them. In the cities they had no support. The workers ignored them, otherwise the whites would have kept the Ural cities. Now according to Izhevsk. There the water was muddied by the front-line Social Revolutionaries. And they raised a mutiny. They were also essentially red. They went into battle to the accompaniment of an accordion, with songs))) Varshavyanka sang. Their banners were red.))) The officers were addressed to you.))) If the Reds had not harshly suppressed their performance, it is not known who they would play for. And the SRs were just temporary companions with the whites. For whites))) - this is for the gentlemen officers you romanticized))) the bulk of which ... the white movement was also up to the bulb. They sat and waited mostly. On the whole, the population of Russia was sympathetic to the left-wing revolutionaries: the Socialist-Revolutionaries, Bolsheviks, anarchists. When I was younger, Turkul read "Drozdovtsy on fire" and wanted to go beat the communists.))) Then he grew up.))) And you are still there?))) Enough already ... it's time to come back to grow up.)))

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Vasily50

So it is not surprising that there were those who believed and fought for the Red-beetles under the RED Banner in the ranks of the whites.

Dmitry, you, in this phrase, doesn’t bother you?
I’ll hint: “He went to Odessa, but went to Kherson” (c) and “Two crocodiles flew - one green, the other into Africa”, in comparison with your pearls, it seems an ideal of connectedness and logic.

[Nehist]

Do not believe it, but the divisions of workers during the Second World War were also an elite of the Red Army

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nehist

Do not believe it, but the divisions of workers during the Second World War were also an elite of the Red Army

I know this perfectly: as it was in the Russian state, and in the Second World War, they came to the defense of the Fatherland.

[Sweetheart]

Quote: Olgovich

, and in the Second World War, they entered the defense of the Fatherland.

The Socialist Fatherland, which guaranteed them all that they have achieved since October 1-7 and which you like have deprived of the Russian population since 1991. Your masters and the 2nd world then arranged. Opposite the USSR / Russia with the expectation that it would succeed in knocking out new generations in the USSR.

[Nick_R]

A detachment of Red Army soldiers numbering about 6 thousand people under the command of V. A. Antonov-Ovseenko, composed of the most combat-ready units (Latvian arrows, revolutionary sailors and Austro-Hungarian "internationalists"

On August 30, Bulkin’s detachment received reinforcements — 4 Chinese companies, up to 400 bayonets and 250 sailors in total

A vivid example, repenting who actually constituted the backbone of the Bolshevik army - foreign mercenaries. Moreover, the "Austro-Hungarian internationalists" are, without any embarrassment, just the troops of a recent adversary of the First World War, before which Lenin had just signed the surrender (the money was paid for nothing). Yes, and the Latvian arrows, given the German influence in the Baltic states, it is obvious that the blood was shed not because of deep respect for Vladimir Ilyich, but practicing the independence promised by the Bolsheviks.
Yes, the Bolsheviks, in the truest sense of the word, were at least ready to sell their souls to the devil, just to stay in power.

[rkkasa xnumx]

Quote: Nick_R

A vivid example, repenting who actually constituted the backbone of the Bolshevik army - foreign mercenaries.

Can you provide data on the number of foreigners in the Red Army? This is just so as not to suspect you of star-sickness

Quote: Nick_R

Yeah, the Bolsheviks, in the truest sense of the word, were even ready to sell their souls to the devil, just to stay in power

Who sold the soul to the large litter, lying under the western masters?

[Nick_R]

But did the Bolshevik German litter fundamentally differ from the West? Or is Germany no longer the west?

[rkkasa xnumx]

In general, you do not have data. Therefore your passage is

Quote: Nick_R

the backbone of the Bolshevik army - foreign mercenaries

- This is the usual starvolstvo.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nick_R

who actually constituted the backbone of the Bolshevik armies - foreign mercenaries

And the backbone of the PROTECTION of the Bolshevik bonzes is only among foreign mercenaries, the Russians were afraid.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Olgovich

And the backbone of the PROTECTION of the Bolshevik bonzes is only among foreign mercenaries, the Russians were afraid.

Was Stepan Gil a mercenary too?

[Nagaibak]

Nick_R "An illustrative example showing who actually made up the backbone of the Bolshevik army - foreign mercenaries." And the White Czechs fought on the side of the Whites. Are these truly Russian patriots? So, what?)))) And there were quite a few of them. Austro-Hungarian subjects.))) These Russian patriots then transported the plundered goods to their Czech Republic in trains, as evidenced by the white Russian officers themselves. Sakharov, for example.)))) As soon as the Czechs stopped fighting, the white army in the east fell down.

[Hlavaty]

Quote: Olgovich

What he created together with the people of Russia received a good mark in the elections to the Duma and the President.

Fu-fu-fu ... He cites the election results as an argument in the dispute ... You are now starting to talk about democracy.

[Boris55]

Quote: Conductor

but if during an annual conversation with the people. Prezik, forced to solve issues at the level of the head of the municipality, is that what you Putin created?

What questions are such and answers. What to do if people do not understand the level of problems to be solved by the presidential power and ask such questions? - raise the level of understanding of the people. Then, and only then, there will be questions corresponding to the level and not the fact that they will be voiced by the presenters. The more questions that come, the easier it is to choose the ones you need and hide the ones you don't need.

[RUSS]

Quote: Conductor

Prezik

Are you talking about Nazarbayev?

[polpot]

Always after reading such articles, the question arises of why the Reds won and the answer is born, apparently the people were still with them and not against them.

[baudolino]

The Bolsheviks won due to their "frostbite", not stopping at anything that did not occur to a normal person.
But the children and grandchildren of these "fiery revolutionaries", turning into "golden youth", surrendered the country with giblets. That’s the whole price of this “great communist idea”. Sea of ​​blood and zilch at the exit.

[bober1982]

Quote: baudolino

The Bolsheviks won due to their "frostbite"

No wonder, after all, there is a famous proverb
Soviet power rests on Jewish brains, Latvian bayonets and Russian durak

[Sweetheart]

Quote: bober1982

No wonder, after all, there is a famous proverb

This stupid proverb has nothing to do with realities. The tool of information-psychological warfare, nothing more.
Your criminal revolution 90, what is it based on?
The Jewish criminal intellect, bandits, and this is exactly what they say to the lousy "Russian" intelligentsia, which could not be the brain of the nation, being its refuse, stagnating the Russians and our other fellow citizens, will believe in the absolutely false promises of perestroika.

[rkkasa xnumx]

Quote: baudolino

The Bolsheviks won due to their "frostbite", not stopping at anything that did not occur to a normal person

But can one be more specific - what did the Bolsheviks do, what did the bailers not do?

Quote: baudolino

But the children and grandchildren of these "fiery revolutionaries", turning into "golden youth", surrendered the country with giblets

Gorbachev and Yeltsin, are these the descendants of fiery revolutionaries? As far as I know, they were the descendants of the fist of the unfinished.

[Weyland]

Quote: rkkasa 81

what the Bolsheviks did, what the bailers did not do

for example, the seizure and execution of hostages purely on the basis of the principle of "class origin".

[Sultanbek]

Quote: baudolino

The Bolsheviks won due to their "frostbite", not stopping at anything that did not occur to a normal person.
But the children and grandchildren of these "fiery revolutionaries", turning into "golden youth", surrendered the country with giblets. That’s the whole price of this “great communist idea”. Sea of ​​blood and zilch at the exit.

The Reds won because they were bolder, smarter and closer to the people. Accordingly, White lost because they were more cowardly and dumber. Do not believe me, compare the literature of those times.
And yet, Lenin was free in political creativity. Whereas Denikin with Kolchak and Yudenich constantly looked back at their Western masters:
"Tunic English,
Shoulder strap french
Japanese tobacco,
Ruler Omsk "

[Weyland]

Quote: Sultanbek

The Reds won because they were bolder, smarter and closer to the people. Accordingly, White lost because they were more cowardly and dumber.

Red whites stupidly crushed by the mass - compare to begin with the size of their armies!

Quote: Sultanbek

Do not believe me, compare the literature of those times.

Whose exactly?

Quote: Sultanbek

Whereas Denikin with Kolchak and Yudenich constantly looked back at their Western masters:

Yeah ... And the Brest peace they also concluded! No matter how the only example in historywhen the enemy lost a lot more territories than those that he occupied at the end of the war!

[Sweetheart]

Quote: Weyland

Yeah ..

You would comment on the resource for the illiterate.
You absolutely do not understand the question of which you judge.

[Weyland]

Quote: The Swordsman

You absolutely do not understand the question of which you judge.

and is that all your arguments? With links to the source?

[Sweetheart]

Quote: Weyland

With links to the source?

You are embarrassed to put your own links for everything, obscurantism and lies from that handful of talkers, such as the Conquist and other Solzhenitsins, on which you are writing your fantasies here.

[prapor55]

Sultanbek, unfortunately the site is plugged in, but I wrote here, there is no need to remember politicized films. Here's a question about the Brest-Litovsk Peace. Free in his thoughts Ulyanov how did he get to Russia in the carriage? Why did Citizen Kerensky die peacefully in the USA and how was he able to get away from the "people's anger"? Although the OGPU even brought various atamans from abroad to the country and here they were indicatively tried and shot?

[Sweetheart]

Quote: prapor55

Why did Citizen Kerensky die peacefully in the USA and how was he able to get away from the "people's anger"? Although the OGPU even brought various atamans from abroad to the country and here they were indicatively tried and shot?

Well ... read ...
Markov's letter to Kerensky.

Copy
In your own hands.
Chief of Staff of the Commander-in-Chief of the Armies of the Western Front
July 15 1917 city
№ 9238

Mr. Minister

I know every minute counts, and letters like mine are flowing, but even under these conditions I consider it my duty to a man who loves his homeland to say a few words. My personal short acquaintance with you convinced me of your sincerity and your desire to give Russia a bright future.
Soldier by nature, birth and education,
I can judge and talk only about my military affairs. All other reforms and alterations of our state system interest me only as an ordinary citizen. But I know the army, I gave it my best days, with the blood of people close to me I paid for its success, the bloodied man himself left the battle.
When famous orders were issued at the beginning of the revolution in Petrograd, when a declaration destroying the army was issued, we all who know the Russian soldier and his spirit are more and closer to the random arbiters of military destinies from an element alien to the army, soldiers only in a gray overcoat, young ensigns cynically arranging for fashionable currents his career as an officer
and the workers who did not understand anything in military affairs, loudly and honestly said that the army was dying, and Russia would die with it. Of course, they did not listen to us, they began to accuse us of counter-revolutionary plans, of wanting to restore the nightmarish Rasputin rule. And now, when the end is almost at hand, when those soldiers who shouted cheers to you, carried you in their arms and vowed to fulfill their duty to the Motherland and in the name of a beautiful but unrealizable formula, freedom, equality and fraternity, like despicable cowards fled before the ghost of the enemy , fled, letting die the best and killing the most worthy of their midst, you take a number of measures to restore the dying army.

These measures, extreme on the one hand, are leveled out by the general situation.
No army, in its essence, can be controlled by multi-headed institutions called committees, commissariats, congresses, etc. Responsible to his conscience and you, as the Minister of War, the chief is almost unable to honestly fulfill his duty, unsubscribing, persuading, appeasing the semi-literate members of the committee in military affairs, having, like the shackles on his feet, maybe very good souls, but also ignorant, fantasizing and claiming a special role commissars. All these are people who are alien to military affairs, people of the moment and most importantly who do not bear any legal responsibility. Give them everything, tell them everything, report everything, do as they want, and the chief is responsible for the results.
It hurts for the cause and it is insulting for each of us to have a face around us, as if watching our every move. After all, this is a continuation of the destruction of the army, and not its creation.

It is simpler than all of us who still cannot be believed, fired, and the same commissars and the same committees are put in our place instead of headquarters and departments. The introduction of the death penalty for scoundrels and cowards is not a solution. Having commanded a regiment for more than 15 months during this war, I, having the right and reason, never sent anyone to the next world and, nevertheless,
the regiment held on tightly, fought extremely valiantly. What is needed for the most part is not stick work, but the consciousness of everyone that this stick is in the hands of the boss and can always be put into action. In short, the authorities should be returned to power with all its prerogatives. Discipline is not an empty phrase; you cannot instill it in words alone. Words will affect clever, honest, decent, but such are everywhere in the minority. Discipline is military decency, obedience, military fit; is all this now evident? Of course not, no shadow.

The discipline of the mind and heart should be manifested by the authorities, but subordinates should always remember only the discipline of hard power. Carrying out democratic principles in the army, they create multi-power, which is contrary to the essence of military affairs. There is no army in the world where the power of the chief is paralyzed by committees. It is no longer possible to refuse committees, but they should be
put in a certain framework with a limited scope of activity. A wide, accessible to all worthy path to higher knowledge (a soldier who does not want to be a general is bad), recognition of a soldier as the same person as every officer, that’s the military democratization that, without corrupting the army, will bring a healthy spirit into it.
But all this is not new, and all this has long been professed by the best of the military. This is the most important thing that I consider it my duty to be an honest soldier - a citizen, and not vice versa, because each military should be, first of all, a soldier, and then a citizen, tell you, Mr. [Oppodine] Minister of War.

Like you, I wholeheartedly do not wish my homeland to return the nightmarish old, and just like you believe in the bright future of a great Russia, but I believe that this is possible only if there is a strong, formidable army, and not a crowd of cowards and traitors . Now it is necessary to save not the revolution, but Russia. The revolution is done, the old is overthrown, Russia is dying.
By sending you this letter, I know what can expect me, but I would rather be expelled from the ranks of the revolutionary army than involuntarily participate in its further decomposition. It is difficult nowadays to remain an honest person, but this is the only right that can be taken away from us, old and real, by any decisions.
officers, no one can. This right made me write to you.

Sincerely respecting you, ready for services Sergey Markov

Bakhmetevsky archive of Russian and East European history and culture (BAR).
Collection R.R. von Raupach. Box 2.
Typewritten copy.
At the same time, take an interest in the question of who and who at one time considered Kerensky and Trotsky (before the well-known receipt of the ice ax in the head), as the head of Russia, if she was defeated in 1941 .. A lot of people didn’t rumble at us.

[Alex1117]

It is one thing to remove someone from China, where there is a weak central authority, and on the outskirts there are plenty of warlords who are at war with each other and the central authority, which are recognized by Beijing from time to time. And it’s completely different to take someone out of the overseas USA. Look, how much effort had to be spent not even to be taken out, but simply to kill Trotsky. And not in the USA, but in a less orderly Mexico.

[prapor55]

That's about the frostbitten Bolsheviks, you are right, and only then the former seminarian seeing that this gang wants to make the rest of the people cleared them out. And he created a state on the legacy of which we still live. You are all adults, well, just answer from the memory of a politicized film about the revolution, how many rebellions against the Bolsheviks? This is popular anger not supported by money and not planned in advance. And how was it all suppressed? What did Tukhachevsky do with simple peasants !? I was also born in the USSR and am proud of it, but the Bolsheviks were created in the West for the collapse of Russia. Minus introduced, I'm waiting.

[rkkasa xnumx]

The rebels were especially cruel to the "foreign mercenaries" in the service of the Bolsheviks - Latvians, Hungarians and Chinese.

Latvians have been Russian subjects since the 18th century, with what fright did they become foreigners?

[RUSS]

Quote: rkkasa 81

The rebels were especially cruel to the "foreign mercenaries" in the service of the Bolsheviks - Latvians, Hungarians and Chinese.

Latvians have been Russian subjects since the 18th century, with what fright did they become foreigners?

Firstly, in 1918, Latvia gained independence and, accordingly, Latvians were already foreigners, and secondly, they always quietly hated the Russian people and more than recouped by participating in punitive actions.

[rkkasa xnumx]

Quote: RUSS

Latvia gained independence in 1918

And? It is impossible to make one forget the previous centuries spent as part of Russia with one stroke of a pen. Many Latvians still considered themselves part of Russia, and had every right to do so. And of course, they also had every right to choose one of the parties in the Civil War.
And with independence there, everything is not so simple. Finally, the Bolsheviks recognized the independence of Latvia only in the 20th. Yes, and naturally, it was precisely the bailers who played a significant role in the fact that Latvia nevertheless separated.

Quote: RUSS

they always quietly hated the Russian people

As in RIA to call Latvians, so they are our subjects, and nothing that they supposedly hated Russians.

[Alex1117]

Those Latvians who guarded Lenin in Moscow and suppressed the revolt of the Left Socialist Revolutionaries left the territory that had become independent Latvia for a reason, but in battles with those Latvians (and Germans from Germany) who established the independence of this very future Latvia. And the Red Latvians fought with their white fellow tribesmen and Germans as fiercely as they did with the White movement in Russia itself.

[Alex1117]

I would even say that future Latvians at the beginning of the 18th century became Russian subjects.

[Yak28]

Most of the army went over to the side of the revolutionaries, the people supported the revolution, while the leaders of the White Guard movement, many officers, and other characters, instead of serving the new Russia, helping their homeland in a difficult moment, chose to dump abroad with their belongings. , like many White Guard officers worked closely with the British, he probably worked for British intelligence under the tsar. If the Whites won, they would sell Russia to the West.

[Nick_R]

By 1918, thanks to the Bolsheviks, the Russian army was no longer there; it simply deserted. Both white and red created the army anew. The Reds did better. Using the backbone of foreign mercenaries, they forcibly drove into the army the workers and workers (everyone was already tired of the war and there were few volunteers) and, through the most disciplined discipline based on terror, seasoned with ideological sauce, created a red army.
For clarity, you can look at the current independent APU. The same Jews in power, the same methods of recruiting "volunteers" and the same insane propaganda.

[Sweetheart]

Quote: Nick_R

Using the backbone of foreign mercenaries, they forcibly drove into the army the workers and workers (everyone was already tired of the war and there were few volunteers) and, through the most disciplined discipline based on terror, seasoned with ideological sauce, created a red army.

Who taught you this nonsense? Can you name the source?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Yak28

If White won, they would have sold Russia to the West.

A third of the country was forever given to the occupiers, not by the whites, but by the red 3 of March 1918 in Brest.
Today's borders Of Russiawithout they also established many Russian lands and tens of millions of Russians on them.
By the way, in 1918 they returned the lands donated to the invaders to the country, not the red ones, but the damned West, FORCING the Germans to go home (Compiegne truce, Versailles peace). Forgot?
Whites who WERE in power before the THIER-COLLECTED this country for centuries.

Quote: Yak28

Kolchak, like many White Guard officers, worked closely with the British; he probably worked for British intelligence under the tsar.

Even under the tsar, they worked for German and English from Japanese intelligence. almost all prominent personalities : Zinoviev, Kamenev, Bukharin, Rykov, Pyatakov, A-Ovseenko, Trotsky, etc. etc. -read the verdicts of the Supreme Court of the USSR 1936-1953.

[Boris55]

Quote: Olgovich

A third of the country was forever given to the occupiers, not by the whites, but by the red 3 of March 1918 in Brest.

You should be happy. The Brest peace stopped the progress of the revolution throughout the world. Or are you offended that the Russian people did not burn out in this fire?

Quote: Olgovich

almost all the outstanding figures of the VKPBE: Zinoviev, Kamenev, Bukharin, Rykov, Pyatakov, A-Ovseenko, Trotsky, etc. etc.

You are right to say that in the CPSU (b) the Trotskyists were apparently not visible. Not all Comrade Stalin managed to lime. In the end, they killed him and the power from the Soviets passed to a gang of undeveloped Trotskyists ... In the XXth year, the sunset of the Soviets began. Officially, the end of the councils was reflected in the Brezhnev constitution in Art. 1953. about guiding and guiding ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: Boris55

You should be happy. The Brest peace stopped the progress of the revolution throughout the world. Or are you offended that the Russian people did not burn out in this fire?

the Brest peace did not stop the advance of the revolution in the world, but saved the Bolsheviks and thereby ruined the mass of Russian people

[Boris55]

Quote: Olgovich

Brest peace did not stop the revolution in the world

You are not right. That is precisely why Lenin was sentenced to death.

[BAI]

One third of the country forever given the occupiers are not white, but red on March 3, 1918 in Brest.

And in 1939 they returned nothing at all? How much can one and the same lie be repeated?

[Olgovich]

Quote: BAI

One third of the country forever given the occupiers are not white, but red on March 3, 1918 in Brest.

And in 1939, nothing at all have returned? How much can you repeat the same lie?

1. Do you even hear yourself: if you returned something, it means something ... lost. Really and it does not reach? "False" then - in what?
2. Entente in 1918-1919 he returned the land to the country that the traitors (by Putin’s assignment) FOREVER presented to the invaders (the Brest Treaty had no deadlines) - remember, finally!

[BAI]

Quote: Olgovich

. Do you even hear yourself: if you returned something, it means something ... lost

I’ll ask you again: “Where did you lose?”FOREVER"?

One third of the country forever given invaders

[Gopnik]

In 1939, only Western Ukraine and the West were "returned". Belarus, but returned NOT to Russia, but to national sovereign state formations with the right to leave the USSR

[Olgovich]

Quote: BAI

Once again I ask: "Where did you lose" FOREVER "?

Once again: GIVEN FOREVER.
She liberated these lands donated by the Bolsheviks to the ANTANTA invaders.
She, by the way, gave and Western Ukraine-Belarus (Curzon line).
But yours wanted Poland and Germany, and, of course, they lost both memory and ST. I had to select them already in 1939mm

[Alex_59]

Quote: Olgovich

Whites who WERE in power before the THIER-COLLECTED this country for centuries.

What the hell are white? What centuries? There were no whites before the October Revolution, as usual you carry terry nonsense.

[Gopnik]

There were no "whites" even after the October Maidan; there were, like centuries before this catastrophe, "Russian patriots"

[Alex_59]

Quote: Gopnik

there were, like centuries before this disaster, "Russian patriots"

Ancient ukry. I see. Russian version from the gopnik. Gopniks are such gopniks. )))

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alex_59

What the hell are white?

1. Those who became white were IN AUTHORITY Before the BOR, study the biographies of the Russian Governments of the State of the Russian Federation and the All-Union Union of Socialist Republic
2.

Quote: Alex_59

What centuries?

10 centuries Russia existed before the thief, remember, finally, ignoramus!

Quote: Alex_59

No whites was not until October revolution, as usual you carry terry nonsense.

Yeah, they flew from Mars!

[Alex_59]

Quote: Olgovich

10 centuries, Russia existed and before the thief, remember, finally, ignoramus!

10 centuries Kerensky collected great Russia))) The poor fellow sweated, probably))) Or Lvov, a member of the anti-monarchist "Union of Liberation")))
This is how one should not love one’s Motherland and its history, how one should not respect all those people who built the Russian Empire with blood and sweat, labor, at the cost of mistakes, defeats and victories in order to scoff at them and reduce them to such a primitive cliche?

[Olgovich]

[

Quote: Alex_59

10 centuries Kerensky collected great Russia)))

Quote: Alex_59

This is how one should not love one’s Motherland and its history, how one should not respect all these people who, with blood and sweat, labor, at the cost of mistakes, defeats and victories, built the Russian Empire to mock them like that and reduce them to such a primitive cliche?

1 What are these?
2What is the “bullying"?
3. What cliche?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Olgovich

10 centuries, Russia existed and before the thief, remember, finally, ignoramus!

And before that, we were sitting on oaks, picking acorns?

[RUSS]

Quote: Yak28

he probably worked for British intelligence under the tsar. If the Whites won, they would sell Russia to the West.

The keyword is probably!
For me, Kolchak is a hero of World War I and a professional geographer.

[Sultanbek]

Quote: RUSS

For me, Kolchak is a hero of World War I and a professional geographer.

This is Kolchak, who in 1917 did not hesitate to call himself a condottiere, that is, a mercenary in the service of another state. Like a hero.
And how many this "geographer" discovered islands and straits?

[Weyland]

Quote: Yak28

If White won, they would have sold Russia to the West.

The Reds won - and sold Russia to the West without any "would". Or Tagged with EBN have you already become white?

[Rastas]

Of course, Gorbachev is white. He does not hide his hatred of communism. the disintegration of the Union took place under these so dearly beloved nationalist, White Guard slogans and weeping over "Russia that we have lost."

[Weyland]

Quote: Rastas

Of course, Gorbachev is white. He does not hide his hatred of communism.

Not everyone who hates communism is white! White - Imperials humpbacked - a liberalist, but never white, and therefore allowed the collapse of the Union!

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Weyland

liberalist, but never white, and therefore allowed the collapse of the Union!

Well, yes, he just wanted to live beautifully. Rais Maksimovna there too. He had little money, as if from the salary of the Secretary General, he also put a thousand dollars in the pocket of 200 for the recognition of South Korea. This, at that time, could have married a thousand Koreans.

[apro]

The petty-bourgeois element always strives to separate itself from the bulk of the population. And interpret social transformations in their favor.

[bober1982]

In my opinion, there was no ideological background for the uprising, just people were tired of the continuous Bolshevik robberies. These people — the peasants, workers, bourgeoisie — had nothing to do with the Soviets, with or without the Bolsheviks. I wanted solid power and an end to the robberies, and they were not any petty-bourgeois elements, they were those who worked conscientiously. Therefore, they supported the "front-line soldiers".

[Olgovich]

Quote: bober1982

Therefore, they supported "veterans".

Yes, it was these forces that destroyed the communist rebellion in Germany and Hungary.
It is a pity, in Russia they were scattered .....

[bober1982]

Quote: Olgovich

Yes, it is these forces

A glass of calvados, ...... cigarettes are my little friends, front-line comrades, Erich Maria Remarque
No communist husk, and Karl Liebknecht with Rosa Luxemburg rest.

[naidas]

Quote: bober1982

there was no ideological background for the uprising, just people were tired of the continuous Bolshevik robberies

And then people stopped paying for work and began to be driven into the People’s Army.
According to historian D. Churakov, the reasons for the growing contradictions between the leadership of the uprising and the bulk of the rank and file participants and the growing disappointment in the new government were labor standards, which became less and less democratic over time. The researcher notes that overtime work became mandatory, while the money for this work was credited as debt, but not paid.
Decomposition also began in the army, the backbone of which was workers. If initially the Prikamsky People’s Army was formed as a volunteer, then on August 18, forced mobilization was carried out, which later became common practice. During the last violent mobilization, even 16- and 50-year-olds were called up.

[Trapperxnumx]

He visited the island city of Sviyazhsk, the museum of the revolution and documents from the participants of the confrontation during the battle for Kazan were especially interesting. Very interesting materials, I would say. On the one hand - the massive use of the "foreign element" by the red army, on the other hand - complete apathy, lack of will and spinelessness in white. Moreover, the white front units are full of energy and determination, but almost half are made up of officers, and in the rear there is complete confusion and stagger.
That is the whole reason for the victory of the Reds. Will and centrism on the one hand, apathy and sloppiness on the other.
I write white and red with a small letter on purpose. I have no respect for anyone. Some overthrew the Sovereign, others finished him off. That is the whole reason for the turmoil.

[RUSS]

Quote: Trapper7

I have no respect for anyone. Some overthrew the Sovereign, others finished him off. That is the whole reason for the turmoil.

In the ranks of the white armies there were also monarchists, for example, Drozdovsky, Kutepov, Alekseev, so in vain you are all the same ....

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: RUSS

In the ranks of the white armies there were also monarchists, for example, Drozdovsky, Kutepov, Alekseev, so in vain you are all the same ....

Of course you are right, but the fact that there are monarchists in the ranks of the white army does not yet turn it into a force that is fighting "for the restoration of the overthrown political system." The general message of the white army was very far from this and was rather a spontaneous movement of "disagreement" of various forces with the usurpation of power by the Bolsheviks and the policies pursued by them.
In turn, and this is an absolute truth, it was the Bolsheviks who were able to reunite and revive a single state, establish a more or less normal life and life in it, prepare for a big war and set high social standards, based on which the workers in Western countries were able to strengthen own rights.

[Gopnik]

Quote: Trapper7

In turn, and this is the absolute truth, it was the Bolsheviks who were able to reunite and revive a single state

They won, therefore, "reunited." If White (or rather, just Russian patriots) won, then they would unite and revive. At the same time, in this state the Bolsheviks pursued a Russophobic policy and cut national sovereign state formations from Russian lands.

Quote: Trapper7

to establish in it a more or less normal life and life

Normal life and way of life could be established somewhere by the end of the 50s unless.

Quote: Trapper7

prepare for a big war

which really started anyway when "an insidious enemy suddenly attacked an unprepared USSR"

Quote: Trapper7

set high social standards, on the basis of which workers in Western countries were able to strengthen their rights.

Yeah, lucky workers in the west. countries, it’s a pity that the workers in Russia, who lived worse than the bourgeois hard workers, were unlucky

[naidas]

Quote: Gopnik

Yeah, lucky workers in the west. countries

Well, dying in US labor camps is certainly better than dying in the Gulag, but getting a bullet from the National Guard into an empty stomach is much better than shooting in Novocherkassk. It’s even better to apologize to former prisoners of concentration camps on a national basis than from Khrushchev. who doubts is expelled from the country as Chaplin.
By the way, there were more convicts in the USA in 1938 than in the USSR, only under democratic Yeltsin were they able to surpass the USA.

[Gopnik]

Quote: naidas

By the way, there were more convicts in the USA in 1938 than in the USSR

It's a lie. In 1938, 160 thousand sat in the USA, 1,8 million in the USSR.

[Foul skeptic]

In 1938, 160 thousand sat in the USA, 1,8 million in the USSR.

Please indicate the source of information

[Gopnik]

https://langohrigel.livejournal.com/33529.html вот данные по США, по СССР, уверен, сами найдете

[Foul skeptic]

Thank. Now it’s clear what source you worked with. LJ. Of course, you can object that in the article by Rudolph this same Rudolph gives the following picture

and even gives a source - These data are published in the newsletter of the Bureau of Judicial Statistics for December 1982.
Let's find the source

Let's find there the first table, which is shown in the picture from Rudolph in LJ

Hmmm, a little different, isn't it.
No, I will not say that everything is not true at once, maybe a person simply made a mistake by the name of the source and this table is actually there. But trust has already been shaken.
Moreover, at the end of the collection there is a figure of 160 thousand people that you quoted

Here are just an interesting note to it (NOTE):

The count, until 1977, was limited to those prisoners remanded to the custody
of the State or Federal adult correctional system. Beginning in 1977, the count includes all persons under the jurisdiction of the individual correctional systems.

I’ll clarify the situation with the classification of prisons in the USA:
states and federal prisons, reformatories
- prison farms
- reception, diagnosis, and classification centers
- correction centers
-jails
- community based confinement facilities, residential facilities

So the mentioned 160 thousand are only states and federal prisons, reformatories (state prisons and state prisons).
Without data on prison farms (prison farms and factories), jails (jail prisons) and community based confinement facilities, residential facilities (jurisdictions), which are subordinate to municipalities and district authorities, phrase "In 1938, there were 160 thousand in the USA, 1,8 million in the USSR." does not make sense.
PS And this is without taking into account the statistics of private prisons.
PPS If you need larger sections of the pages - write, I’ll do it
PPPS And for the USSR, please indicate the source too. And then it may, as with the United States.

[Foul skeptic]

Why do pieces of message disappear ?!
And the pictures are deleted. The picture from LJ Rudolph, the title page from this bulletin of the Bureau of Judicial Statistics for December 1982, and the present first table from it disappeared. And a bunch of explanatory text. Is it because of the new design?

[Gopnik]

For the USSR Zemskov data http://www.hrono.ru/statii/2001/zemskov.php
And in the USA, well, ok, if you think this data is incomplete, please provide complete, I will only say thank you.
In the USSR, as I understand it, these pre-trial detention centers and all sorts of bullpen are not included

[Foul skeptic]

Something is happening with the site. I could not write the answers.

In the USSR, as I understand it, these pre-trial detention centers and all sorts of bullpen are not included

Yes, 1,88 million is ITL and ITK. An additional 0,35 million should be added to this figure.

And in the USA, well, ok, if you think this data is incomplete, please provide complete, I will only say thank you.

What for? It’s more logical for you and naidasu to do this, you argue among yourself, for some reason, considering the number of prisoners as something meaningful.
Although, you can do this. Only a quick response I do not promise. I can’t read English for a long time, my head gets tired.

[Gopnik]

Quote: naidas

Well, dying in US labor camps is certainly better than dying in the Gulag, but getting a bullet from the National Guard into an empty stomach is much better than shooting in Novocherkassk. It’s even better to apologize to former prisoners of concentration camps on a national basis than from Khrushchev. who doubts is expelled from the country as Chaplin.

Maybe not better, the main thing is that the chances of this in the USA were MUCH less

[Foul skeptic]

By the way, there were more convicts in the USA in 1938 than in the USSR

Please indicate the source of this information.

[Sultanbek]

Quote: Gopnik

If White (or rather, just Russian patriots) won, then they would unite and revive.

How is this bold statement proved? By pouring gold into Britain and Japan in exchange for fratricidal warfare equipment?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sultanbek

How is this bold statement proved?

Millennial the history of Russia, which the whites and their ancestors collected.
Today's borders are created by the Bolsheviks.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Gopnik

If White (or rather, just Russian patriots) won, then they would unite and revive.

I doubt it deeply. National suburbs did not want to return to the bosom of a single and indivisible Russian Empire. After the victory of the whites, a civil war from a class war would turn into a trans-ethnic civil war. The Reds just won thanks to the support of the national suburbs. The peoples of the former Russian Empire could be reunited only on the principles of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

[Gopnik]

The whites joined “Ukraine” stating “Kiev, the mother of Russian cities, has never been Ukrainian and never will be,” and no one was tweeting there.
And the Bolsheviks then created an ugly state education - Ukraine, generously cutting this Russian zemlyatse.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Gopnik

The whites joined “Ukraine” stating “Kiev, the mother of Russian cities, has never been Ukrainian and never will be,” and no one was tweeting there.

Well, when did they manage to do it?

[Gopnik]

Teach a story that I can still advise you

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Gopnik

Teach a story that I can still advise you

Crowed again?

[Gopnik]

You crow. instead of studying the history of at least Kiev.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Gopnik

You crow. instead of studying the history of at least Kiev.

Enlighten ...

[Foul skeptic]

The whites joined “Ukraine” stating “Kiev, the mother of Russian cities, has never been Ukrainian and never will be,” and no one was tweeting there.

You will not be bothered to indicate the source of information

[Olgovich]

Quote: Trapper7

it was the Bolsheviks who were able again combine and revive a single state,

Does the 91-year-old tell you anything at all? Its borders were cut by the Bolsheviks.

Quote: Trapper7

establish in it more or less normal life and life

An unprecedented famine in the world with 7 million victims, with cannibalism unprecedented in Russia, is this .... the norm?

Quote: Trapper7

prepare for a big war

War simply would not be, because. Nuernberg would take place in 1919 g. (as planned)
Just as in 1946 it would not have taken place without Russia (USSR), so in 1919 it would not have taken place without Russia. Without Russia, the world does not exist!
But Russia was thrown into outcasts and from world politics to establish peace, the Bolsheviks.

[Sultanbek]

Quote: RUSS

In the ranks of the white armies there were also monarchists, for example, Drozdovsky, Kutepov, Alekseev, so in vain you are all the same ....

Alekseev ??? Which informed citizen Romanov that he “can consider himself as if arrested”

[Sultanbek]

Quote: Trapper7

On the one hand - the massive use of the "foreign element" by the red army, on the other hand - complete apathy, lack of will and spinelessness in white.

Mass use ??? Please show the numbers. And without the numbers announced - nothing more than an empty chatter in the spirit of Solzhenitsyn

[Gopnik]

For you and people like you even multi-volumes were published in the USSR "internationalists in the struggle for Soviet power", but, of course, the Chukchi is not a reader, the Chukchi is a writer.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Trapper7

That is the whole reason for the victory of the Reds. Will and centrism on the one hand, apathy and sloppiness on the other.

The bestial cruelty and the willingness to make any killings on the one hand and the unwillingness to participate in a fratricidal war, on the other hand: hence the reeling.

[Albatroz]

An important milestone of the Civil War in Russia!
Thank you

[Alexander Greene]

Regarding the Izhevsk-Votkinsk uprising, speculation has been going on since the 90s. The heirs of the White Guards are trying to prove that this uprising of workers symbolizes the "unity" of the interests of the people in the face of Bolshevism and the lack of a mass base among the Bolsheviks. For them, the Bolsheviks are everyone hated by the power that came from outside, and is not supported by anyone other than Latvians and Chinese.
But, as if the White Guards did not want to, the anti-Soviet uprising itself could not be entirely attributed to the worker, the shock nucleus of the uprising was not the workers, but the so-called The "Union of Front-line Soldiers", consisting largely of demobilized officers, non-commissioners and declassed elements, past the war. Its headcount amounted to about 4 thousand people.
They were supported only by a part of the workers, the apical layer, the so-called working aristocracy, highly qualified and experienced in the enterprise, which were also closely associated with the village, i.e.. were actually small owners.
The Bolsheviks never lagged behind the workers, did not seek to fulfill all their requirements, but used force and force when necessary when the demands of individual groups of workers contradicted the interests of the class as a whole.
The Bolsheviks understood that the belonging of a certain group of workers to the working class did not mean that they had a proletarian consciousness. The workers are heterogeneous, they, like the peasants, are divided into three groups: the top layer of the workers (the so-called labor aristocracy), the middle layer of the workers (the bulk, it also has high qualifications, but has short work experience at the enterprise) and the lower layer of workers (laborers) .
The first group is nourished by managers and masters and keeps all workers in check, the second prefers to negotiate with them and the third most oppressed by both the masters and the aristocratic part of the workers.
And since January 1918, the petty-proprietary mood of the labor aristocracy and part of the middle class of Izhevsk workers began to prevail on the basis of dissatisfaction with the food policy of the Soviet government. Izhevsk workers did not starve, but they protested against the food surplus, which was carried out in order to feed their "classmates" in large cities that do not have personal farms.
This protest, fueled by the Social Revolutionaries, and brought some of the workers with a petty-bourgeois consciousness to the camp of the enemies of Soviet power.

[Reptiloid]

I read somewhere that the first surplus was introduced under the king? In 1MB?

[Gopnik]

well, of course, professionals who know how and love to work for Russia, and for the Bolsheviks — hand-working laborers, such as the present Gaster, whose motto is “to take away and share.” What is characteristic, the Bolsheviks shot the working demonstration in Petrograd on January 5, 1918 and continued in the same vein.

[Gopnik]

The Bolsheviks continued to shoot the workers, for example, in Astrakhan in March 1919.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Gopnik

The Bolsheviks continued to shoot the workers, for example, in Astrakhan in March 1919.

Nobody shot the workers in Astrakhan; these are all inventions of one nimble Socialist-Revolutionary who has never been to Astrakhan.
About 168 people of the leaders of the uprising were shot, among them mostly white officers.

[Gopnik]

Yes, of course, "you are lying" yeah

[Weyland]

Quote: Alexander Green

highly skilled labor aristocracy and long work experience at the enterprise, which, moreover, were still closely connected with the village, i.e. were actually small owners.

It's five! It is felt that you did not work at the plant (unlike me) - in any case, the level of Izhevsky! Those workers who were closely associated with the village (i.e. in the summer they worked at home, and in the winter they went to work part-time at the factory) precisely because of such a lifestyle they could not acquire high qualifications!

Quote: Alexander Green

middle layer of workers (the bulk, it also has high qualifications, but a short experience in the enterprise)

High qualification with little experience? This is also five!

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Weyland

It's five! It is felt that you did not work at the plant (unlike me) - in any case, the level of Izhevsky! Those workers who were closely associated with the village (i.e., they worked at home in the summer and went to the factory for part-time work in the winter) precisely because of such a lifestyle they could not acquire high qualifications!

Well, you already thought of it for me, I didn’t write this.
I explain why I called these workers small owners.

Look at them in terms of their family incomes.
In addition to salary they include:
- small-scale production (hackwork at the main production): the manufacture or repair of various small crafts on the factory equipment for the purpose of sale or exchange, i.e. the worker in the allotted official time at work is a worker, and in stolen time, doing hackwork on the equipment of the plant, he is already a lone handicraftsman (petty bourgeois).
- natural economy - a garden in a city house, a house in the village where their close relatives live (mother, children, son-in-law, daughter-in-law) who also contribute to the family budget.

It turns out that if we take his family as a whole, then our “worker” is not just a worker, but a co-owner of a whole small commercial enterprise. From this, the social face of our worker is even more blurred.

Naturally, the consciousness of such workers is corresponding. This is the consciousness of a small owner. It corresponds exactly to the consciousness of the peasant, the sole individual who understands only “mine,” and does not give a damn about common interests.

[Weyland]

Quote: Alexander Green

Look at them in terms of their family incomes.
In addition to salary they include:
- small-scale production (hackwork at the main production): the manufacture or repair of various small crafts on the factory equipment for the purpose of sale or exchange, i.e. the worker in the allotted official time at work is a worker, and in stolen time, doing hackwork on the equipment of the plant, he is already a lone handicraftsman (petty bourgeois).
- natural economy - a garden in a city house, a house in the village where their close relatives live (mother, children, son-in-law, daughter-in-law) who also contribute to the family budget.

The ability to cheat on production is certainly not everywhere (and almost certainly not at military factories, such as Izhevsky!)
Subsistence farming - to the unskilled to the same extent!

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Weyland

The ability to cheat on production is certainly not everywhere (and almost certainly not at military factories, such as Izhevsky!)

Why not? You never heard about how workers at that time did lighters in factories. Quickly completed his outfit and in the rest of the time he pranked.

Yes, missed your smile.

Quote: Weyland

High qualification with little experience? This is also five!

Sorry, I missed one word; "the middle stratum of workers (the bulk, they also have high qualifications, but little experience in DATA enterprise) "Hopefully caught the difference.

[Sultanbek]

The political drift of the leaders of the uprising is also interesting: from the slogan “Soviets without Bolsheviks” to the deflection under KomUch, with its slogan for convening the Constituent Assembly, and further under Kolchak. That is, from direct democracy to representative, and then to military dictatorship. Wow "adherence to principles." Neither give nor take, YLITA

Speaking of "foreign mercenaries." How to regard Belachekhs from these positions, on whose bayonets the counter-revolution triumphed in the Urals and Siberia

[bober1982]

Quote: Sultanbek

on whose bayonets the counter-revolution triumphed in the Urals and Siberia

And what is counterrevolution?
If you turn to the Dahl dictionary, then ........... counterinsurgency, indignation in favor of the former order, which existed before the coup.
According to Marxist terminology, ........... the struggle of the overthrown reactionary exploiting classes .....
If we argue in Marxist style, all the popular discontent that we are witnessing now, namely, protests against pension reform, rallies and rallies for resignation, etc., is the struggle of the deposed classes for their deposed rights, that is, counter-revolution.
That's the whole Marxist-Leninist crap, its essence.

[Foul skeptic]

According to Marxist terminology, ........... the struggle of the overthrown reactionary exploiting classes .....

Please indicate the source. It looks like your personal interpretation of this phrase as a definition of counter-revolution.

[Foul skeptic]

According to Marxist terminology, ........... the struggle of the overthrown reactionary exploiting classes .....

That's for sure? You will not be bothered to indicate the source? More like your free interpretation of these words in relation to the definition of counter-revolution

[bober1982]

You surprise, because you can just throw Leninist sayings about what to say if Lenin considered the middle peasant to be the petty bourgeois, that is, the main enemy of the socialist revolution, the counter.

[Foul skeptic]

May I surprise you.
Where is Dahl Counterrevolution - counterinsurgency, indignation in favor of the previous order, which existed before the coup can be found.
Tell me where to find Counter-revolution - the struggle of the overthrown reactionary exploiting classes?
You just wrote

According to the Marxist terminologistsи

For example, I know that a term is a word or phrase designed to exactly designate a concept and its relationship with other concepts within a special sphere.
Therefore, judging by your words, in Marxist literature should be found exactly your written words in relation to the concept of "counter-revolution".

[bober1982]

You, I’m just forcing you to quote all this nonsense.
Only Marxism-Leninism gives the only scientific definition of the concept of counter-revolution. In bourgeois literature and political practice term counterrevolution almost does not appear, for the bourgeoisie in its policy and science has never had and cannot have a clear concept of counterrevolution because it itself is not a completely revolutionary class even in the bourgeois revolution.
Work way , Marxist-Leninist movement, political dictionary ,, definition of what is counterrevolution, 12.08.2016/XNUMX/XNUMX.
Not to consider this movement as advertising, I ask you to understand correctly, they forced me to.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: bober1982

You, I’m just forcing you to quote all this nonsense.

You shouldn’t be so. For example, I really liked it.

[Koshnitsa]

Belochekhi fraternal Slavic people, the voluntary formation of the Russian Imperial Army fought yuok yuok with Russian brothers against the eternal enemies of the Slavic-Germans, Magyars and Turks

[Koshnitsa]

Quote: Alexander Green

The Reds just won thanks to the support of the national suburbs.

Gold words. Well, and how, do you, Alexander Green, then represent the attitude of Russians towards the international red?

[Rastas]

In general, it would be nice for article authors to provide links to used literature, then there will be more trust and vice versa. For there are speculations that the author used exclusively the recollections of the participants in the uprising, which the Bolsheviks painted very biased.

[Vadim237]

Refer to the biography of Stalin - she will describe to you the true face of Bolshevism.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Quote: Alexander Green

The Reds just won thanks to the support of the national suburbs.

Gold words. Well, and how, do you, Alexander Green, then represent the attitude of Russians towards the international red?

The vast majority of Russians are internationalists and reds.

[Koshnitsa]

Russians are internationalists and reds.
Honestly in my life I have never met such Russians.
They probably serve in the Armed Forces.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Russians are internationalists and reds.
Honestly in my life I have never met such Russians.
They probably serve in the Armed Forces.

And then who is fighting on the side of the DPR and LPR? Russian internationalist volunteers help the Urainian brothers, and they supported the demand of the common people to nationalize all enterprises in the region.

[Koshnitsa]

Russian versus Ukrainians, everything is clear there.
Look at the ethnographic map of Ukraine, Russian Crimea and Donbass against the rest of

[Koshnitsa]

On the territory of the DPR and LPR, even the MOV is prohibited and the Communist Party, these are Russian republics.
And Pashinsky went to the Ukrainian brothers, here he is an internationalist, against the Russians.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Koshnitsa

Russians versus Ukrainians, everything is clear

Quote: Koshnitsa

On the territory of the DPR and LPR, even the MOV is prohibited and the Communist Party, these are Russian republics.

You comment directly hammer a nail into the Friendship of two kindred peoples. In Ukraine, even the Natsiks don’t say that, they don’t want to admit that there is a civil war in Ukraine, and they are trying to convince the whole world that there is a war between Russia and Ukraine in the Donbas, that Russia is an aggressor. And you pour water on their mill, so you in this case, act as an instigator.
The war in Ukraine began after the forces that raised the banner of terry nationalism came to power as a result of the Maidan coup. This ideology was not accepted by the majority of the population of Ukraine, and opposed. Particularly strong protests were in industrial areas of the East and South of Ukraine, whose population was pro-Soviet.
But gradually in these areas the vector of protest was redirected to the separation of these areas from Ukraine and accession to Russia. The central government took advantage of this, and after accusing the protesters of separatism, they launched powerful anti-Russian propaganda, after which a surge of Ukrainian patriotism occurred in the country. Even those who did not share the nationalistic policy of the government opposed Donbass. So here you are wrong. Both Russians and Ukrainians are fighting on both sides.
And no one forbade the Communist Party there, on the contrary, there communists from different parties united in their own Communist Party, no one forbade the Ukrainian language either, they study it as a second language, there simply were no schools teaching in Ukrainian, but the reason was not the ban, but in the fact that there were many refugees from Donbass, including ethnic Ukrainians, and therefore there is no admission to Ukrainian schools.

[Koshnitsa]

Quote: Alexander Green

but the reason is not a ban, but because there were many refugees from the Donbass, including ethnic Ukrainians, and therefore there is no admission to Ukrainian schools

This is a great phrase! You are the best Alexander Green !!!

[skeptic31]

As in modern multiseries films it is long and tedious to talk about something domestic and everyday, and then for a couple of minutes about everything else, which everyone expected with great impatience. So here they fought so much, had so many weapons, such undaunted ones, and then the nasty Bolsheviks came and defeated all those who did not manage to escape in a couple of days. Those. it seems that they simply did not notice this huge "people's" army. The question naturally arises - was there a "boy"?

[Koshnitsa]

Well, they dispersed, fought for several years, and White had the options to crush them.
This is not 1991, when 18 million Communists disappeared somewhere and 45 million Komsomol members.
This is a paradox.