Military Review

Shipbuilding development strategy up to 2035 year and the ocean fleet of the Russian Federation

149
For some time now, an interesting trend has been noticed on our website: a number of respected authors of VO proclaimed the imminent renunciation of the Russian Navy’s ocean ambitions and a focus on the so-called mosquito navy. In support of this point of view, a document entitled "Strategy for the development of the shipbuilding industry for the period until 2035" was cited. (hereinafter - the "Strategy").


Well, fortunately, this document is not secret and is open for downloading and reading for everyone. Surprisingly, but the fact is: nothing of what has been stated in it inspires reflection on the future priority of the “mosquitoes”: moreover, the “Strategy” directly hints at the desire to build ships of the ocean fleet. Let's see what exactly the “Strategy” says about the prospects for the development of the Russian Navy. Quote #1:

“At present, in the interests of defense and security of the state, Russian enterprises are building:
- nuclear and non-nuclear submarines;
- multipurpose ships (corvettes and frigates);
- patrol and border ships;
- amphibious ships;
- rocket ships;
- Mine defense ships (minesweepers);
- various special vessels, vehicles and support vessels.

When updating the Russian submarine fleet, emphasis is placed on the construction of multipurpose and strategic nuclear submarines. In the surface shipbuilding priority is given to the creation of ships of the "mosquito fleet" (ships of small displacement, intended for conducting combat operations in coastal areas). "


That is, the “Strategy” says directly that the priority is given to the “mosquito” fleet now, today, and all those who are interested in the state of the modern Russian Navy know the reasons why this happened. However, the current description of the situation does not mean that we will continue the course on the "mosquito" fleet in the future. On the contrary, “Strategy” says:

“Construction of serial surface ships (NK) and submarines (submarines) under current projects will be completed by 2022 - 2025 years. In the same period, the creation of head surface ships (including distant sea and ocean zones of operation) and submarines of new projects will begin. ”


What does this mean? To date, we have in different stages of construction and delivery of ships to the fleet (not counting MRKs, boats, and other PDRCs and floating craft "from 80 tons of displacement", which our Defense Ministry so likes to include in reporting on the replenishment of the Russian Navy):

SSBN of the Borey A project 995 - 5 units;
MAPL project 885 "Ash-M" - 6 units;
The diesel submarines of the 636.3 "Varshavyanka" project - 2 units. (and 4 is also contracted, and with a high degree of probability these EPDs will indeed be built);
ДЭПЛ project 677 "Lada" - 2 units;
frigates of the project 22350 "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov" - 4 units;
20380 / 20385 / 20386 project corvettes - 5 / 2 / 1, and 8 units in total;
BDK project 114711 "Peter Morgunov" - 1 units.



In principle, all of them (or at least most of them) can actually be transferred to the fleet before 2025 g, and, apparently, in the future, the Ministry of the Judiciary is already preparing to build ships of the ocean fleet. What kind?

"To a large extent, these ships will be the result of the evolutionary development of the NK and the submarines of the current generation, which will ensure the continuity of tooling at the construction plants and reduce costs in the full life cycle."


It is not clear, however, whether this item is the wish of the Ministry of Industry, or a fait accompli. But in general, it can be assumed that both the prospective corvette (if it will be at all), the frigate (22350M), and the diesel-electric submarine submarine (something based on the Lada) will not be something completely different from .

Further, “Strategy” reports the presence of three scenarios for the development of the shipbuilding industry: which one of them “works” depends on the general state of the country's economy.

The first and the most deplorable option for us is conservative, it assumes the cost of a barrel of oil at the level of 40 dollars, GDP growth in the period of 2018-2035. - on average, 1,2% per year, and the dollar rate in 2035 g - 94,2 rubles. In this case, a complete failure is assumed ... no, not all large ships, but only part of them - the construction of promising destroyers and an aircraft carrier (more precisely, the naval aircraft-carrying complex, or IAC) is postponed, until 2035 will not proceed to it. But, strictly speaking, even in this case, it is probably impossible to talk about the priority of the “mosquito” fleet in the surface forces, since we will continue to build SSBNs, MAPLs and surface ships on a frigate inclusive. And if you call a spade a spade, then, perhaps, a destroyer, since preliminary estimations of the 22350M frigate brought its displacement to 8 000 t., That is, it is a destroyer. True, the timing of the laying of part of these ships can be shifted in 2025 g, and until that time we will limit ourselves to the completion of only those ships that had already been laid - and, perhaps, with quite a few new ones.

The second scenario is called very innovative today by the word "innovative." The situation in the economy is supposed to be much better than the conservative - oil on 60 dollars per barrel, average GDP growth 2% per year, dollar rate in 2035 g - 85,4 rubles. Everything is much better here - already in the 2018-2022 period. One should expect the intensification of research and development on ocean-going ships and:

"The beginning of the procurement of head and serial promising samples of TDC (including large NK far sea and ocean coverage) after 2020."


The third scenario is called target (or forced) - oil at 75 dollars / barrel, average annual GDP growth 3,4%, dollar rate in 2035 g - 77,2 rubles. In these circumstances, the laying of the ocean ships, as well as in the previous scenario, should start after 2020, but, obviously, the construction will be somewhat more large-scale.

Not quite clear, but, most likely, in the target, that is, the most favorable scenario, in the period of 2018-2035. (2018-2030 is indicated in the text of the document, but most likely it is a typo), our shipbuilding industry should build for the Russian Navy and for export the 533 ship, vessel and floating craft with a displacement of more than 80 tons. Where there are Americans with their 300-ship fleet ... Seduce, of course, is not worth it: it should be understood that in the period 2014-2017. inclusive according to the National Institute of Higher School of Economics Research (yes, the very same) of such ships and watercrafts, we built 336 units. It would be interesting, of course, to see what kind of watercraft such are, because the author of this article has long had a persistent feeling that not only lifebuoys are taken into account in this statistics, but perhaps even galley tanks ...

But, be that as it may, it should be admitted that the “Strategy” has turned out to be very encouraging - today the cost of a barrel of oil is 72,57 dollars, and there are no special prerequisites for its sharp fall in the near future. Therefore, in accordance with the document, in the period 2020-2022. we should expect the laying of the first ocean surface ships and say that the country finally refused to build ocean power, limiting itself to small rocket ships, it is impossible. Of course, we all remember very well where the road paved with good intentions leads, but still such plans by the Ministry of the Judiciary in respect of military shipbuilding look quite positive and can not but rejoice. However, the “Strategy” is not limited to the military fleet alone, and it considers the prospects of civil shipbuilding in the Russian Federation. And there…



To be honest, the author of this article is very surprised at the frankness with which the “Strategy” reveals the situation with our civilian fleet. Just a few numbers.

Over the past 30, international trade volumes have increased by 5 times, with 85% of its volume being transported by sea. The value of sea and river transport of the Russian Federation continues to grow, the Strategy states:

“The dynamics of the turnover of Russian ports in recent years shows steady growth. Cargo turnover of Russian seaports in 2016 amounted to 721,9 mln tons. It is predicted that it will reach 2020 mln tons by 884, 2025 mln tons by 995, xNUMX mln tons by 2030 ».


This, of course, is wonderful, but ... In order to ensure this cargo turnover, we need to build 2035 1 cargo ships with 470 million tonnes DWT before 22,9, while 1 069 ships must replace similar ships, which due to old age will be Scrapped, and the 401 ship should be put into operation beyond what we have today. But do not forget to provide the fleet - before 2035 g, 1 600 of such ships should be commissioned, of which 1 088 units. 512 units will be used to replace those leaving the line. - on the increase relative to the current amount. And this number does not include vessels for servicing offshore fields, which, according to the Ministry of Food Industry, we will need to build more 2035 units before 140. In addition, to keep the passenger traffic at the current level and to meet the growing needs of the northern delivery, it is necessary to build an 42 marine passenger vessel.

Fishing fleet? Today, its number exceeds 2 000 ships, and most of them are operated with a large excess of the standard service life. In simple terms, people risk their lives by going to sea on such vessels. And even continuing this practice, by 2035 we will have no more than 240 fishing vessels, that is, to at least keep our fishing fleet at the current level, we should build about 2035 1 of such vessels to 800.

The research fleet today is 79 units, the average age of which exceeds 30 years, and to support the research that we are going to conduct, we will need 2035 ships before 90.

Icebreaking fleet - today we have atomic 6 (of which only 4 is operating) and 30 diesel-powered icebreakers, and all existing nuclear-powered icebreakers must leave the building before 2025. There are no… not, not so - things can be relatively good, since we in 2015-16, the 3 diesel icebreaker was put into operation, and now we also have 8 units. in different stages of construction. But in order for our icebreaking fleet to fulfill its tasks, it is necessary to build 3 nuclear icebreakers for the 10510 project, five for the 22220 project and four more icebreakers to export LNG and oil through the Gulf of Ob - seven of them should be commissioned before the end of 2025, but they have not yet been laid ...

The river fleet ... its total strength, unfortunately, the “Strategy” does not indicate, but it is reported that it has 11 855 vessels whose age exceeds 20 years. At the same time, the average age of a cargo river vessel is 36 years! The river passenger fleet incorporates 658 vessels, whose age exceeds 20 years, before 2030 g it is necessary to replace more than half of them. In addition, there are cruise ships (90 units) 50, of which will be decommissioned in the coming decade.

Thus, we see that the need for civilians, both river and sea, is enormous in our country - we are talking about many thousands of units. And then there are two questions:

1. The “strategy” very correctly argues precisely on the number of ships we need, in order to ensure and develop the existing maritime trade. But, besides this, it would be interesting to know - can our shipowners be able to pay for the purchase of all these transports, rollers, tankers and seiners? That is, it is clear that we now have 2 000 fishing vessels, it is clear that if their number falls, the volume of fishing will begin to decrease proportionally. But do enterprises with these vessels have money to purchase new seiners? After all, if they are not there, then no “Strategy” of the Ministry of Industry will help anything - we should talk about the strategy to support fishing enterprises.

2. To what extent are our production facilities ready for a radical renewal of the civilian fleet? Unfortunately, the "Strategy" does not directly answer this question. Let's try to figure it out for yourself.

So, all those interested in naval subjects are perfectly aware of how slowly, with what tremendous creaking and backlog from the schedules, the national navy is being replenished with new warships. Alas, the “bottom” of our fleet has not yet been reached - at least over the next decade the number of ships being withdrawn from the fleet for recycling (or to the reserve, which, in fact, is delayed disposal) will exceed new arrivals. It is needless to mention that the program of updating the Russian Navy under the state armament program on 2011-2020 was not only failed, but failed with a deafening crash. In other words - the construction of the navy is neither shaky nor roll. But with all this, the "Strategy" reports:

“In the last 5 years, military products accounted for up to 90% of the commercial output of enterprises. Volumes of civilian production remain relatively low and unstable. ”


In general, what the military fleet has been receiving in recent years should be characterized by the words “very little” and “absolutely not enough”, but the civilian have to be content with 10% of the above. Although, of course, the cost of a warship is many times higher than that of the same transport vessel of equal displacement, and it would be nice to add more quantitative data to the cost data, but the “Strategy” gives up - there is almost no data on the production of the shipbuilding industry in Russia . Let's try to refer to other sources.

Unfortunately, as it turned out, the data characterizing our civil shipbuilding, for some reason, is not readily available. But according to the INFOline agency, over the past 7 years, in the period from 2011 to 2017, we have commissioned civilian ships (and watercrafts, of course) with a tonnage of 1 977 thousand tons.

Shipbuilding development strategy up to 2035 year and the ocean fleet of the Russian Federation


Is it a lot or a little? Given the fact that 2008 g required tonnage for the period 2010-2015. estimated at 6 178,9 th. tons. - very few. In the past three years, we have not even built civil tonnage per year on 200 (although, for example, in 2012 r we built 515,9 thousand tons) —and we should only build transport ships (not counting all others) in the nearest 18 years - 22,9 million tons, that is, we need to build an average of 1 347 thousand tons of transport ships alone! Not counting icebreakers, fishing and so on and so forth.

River fleet is still worse - to restore it, we need to build five to six thousand ships over the next 18 years, and over the past seventeen, in the period from 2000 to 2016 g, we have mastered only 317 cargo river transports (this is already according to the ).

So, we can say that our branch of civil shipbuilding is in a state of crisis - we face challenges that we are unlikely to adequately respond to. The schedule for commissioning civilian tonnage indisputably testifies to the hardest hit that the industry received during the 2014 crisis, after which it did not recover even now, and did not come close to the pre-crisis figures (over half a million tons of deadweight in 2013 g and less than 190 thousand . tons in 2017 g.). Even more frightening is the fact that, most likely, this crisis is dictated by the lack of effective demand for the products of the industry. That is, we have a huge fleet of obsolete transport and fishing vessels, but it’s far from the fact that the firms operating them have the financial resources to resume this fleet. Again, you should pay close attention to the fact that in the presence of the domestic industry, many companies prefer to order ships abroad. For example, the very significant events of 2015 g are:

1. Launching the trawler manufactured by "Tersan Shipping" Inc. (Turkey, Istanbul) by request of Nenets Rybaksoyuz LLC (Russia, Murmansk);

2. Launching an icebreaker manufactured by Arctech Helsinki Shipyard (Finland, Helsinki) by order of an unknown Russian company;

3. Tanker laying by Samsung Heavy Industries, Ltd (South Korea, Seoul) commissioned by Sovkomflot PJSC (Moscow, Russia);

4. Laying down of a gas carrier by Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering Co Ltd. (South Korea, Seoul) by order of PJSC "Sovcomflot" (Russia, Moscow).

The production capacities of domestic shipbuilding enterprises need serious renovation and modernization. On the one hand, it is pleasant to note that, as the secretary general said one evil memory, “the process has started” - according to the “Strategy”, in recent years the share of fixed assets that are less than 10 years old has been steadily increasing. However, the “Strategy” immediately notes the main shortcomings of domestic enterprises. One of the main ones is the impossibility for most of them to implement the construction of ships in a large-block way: enterprises do not have the ability to install such units or the infrastructure to transport them. It is noted that the full modular modular methods are used only in the construction of submarines. There is also obsolescence of the machine park, a small proportion of CNC machines, weak automation and production robotization. Interestingly, information technologies are being introduced quite widely in our country, but due to the outdated nature of the machine park, this does not give the effect that could be expected. It is noted that a number of enterprises have unique technologies (processing and welding of titanium structures, equipment for the installation of large assembly units, measuring and testing complexes, etc.), surpassing the world level in technical characteristics, but inferior in terms of the degree of mechanization and automation.

A critical situation has developed in the area of ​​quality components. "Strategy" notes that domestic manufacturers are uncompetitive across virtually the entire spectrum of ship component equipment, with the greatest lag in the production of power equipment: diesel engines, diesel generators, gas turbine engines, etc., cranes, auxiliary machinery, pumps, and equipment for the oil and gas sector. The consequence of such regrettable condition of our manufacturers is that the share of imported component equipment in our civilian vessels is 70-90%. Worse still, that:

“A high degree of use of imported components and materials is typical for military shipbuilding, especially when building surface ships of small and medium displacement (up to 80%).”


The “Strategy” reports that at present they are trying to improve this situation - the import substitution plans have been created and are being implemented, within the framework of which lists of equipment to be replaced in the first place are determined and, although this is not said directly, these plans are carried out with the support of state (including financial). In addition, now the industry is trying to improve the quality of components by creating joint ventures with leading manufacturers of such equipment, but here, alas, the Strategy does not announce any concrete achievements.

In general, we can state the following. Our shipbuilding industry today is underutilized - according to the "Strategy", existing orders load existing production facilities with 50-60%, but at the same time we are inferior to the world's leading shipbuilders in the construction of ships, ships and their components. Such a backlog calls into question our ability to ensure the reproduction of our transport, fishing, river and other fleets. We are threatened by a massive reduction in the number of civil shipbuilding, in the image and likeness of the military, and this is an extremely negative scenario for our economy as a whole. For example, the reduction of the fishing fleet will lead to a decrease in the gross national product, to the bankruptcy of a number of enterprises and to replenish the number of unemployed with its employees. At the same time, the need for their products (fish and seafood) will cause the need to purchase them abroad.

Shipbuilding problems complement the complexity of ship repair enterprises. The “Strategy” explicitly says that domestic operators of the civilian fleet prefer to repair ships abroad, since our ship repair centers (even large ones) cannot compete with foreign ones. The complexity of logistics of spare parts and equipment (including due to insufficiently effective customs procedures), as well as the natural and climatic conditions of Russia, which increase overhead costs (for the maintenance of capital buildings and structures, their heating, etc.) are noted. As a major drawback, “Strategy” notes our lack of proposals for integrated servicing of the life cycle of vessels, from their design and construction to recycling inclusive.

The only positive that the author of this article has been able to see is that, judging by the text of the Strategy, our Ministry of Industry is very well aware of the problems facing domestic shipbuilding, and it does not close their eyes to them, but tries to solve them, and to solve them systematically. As far as he succeeds, the future will show, and we can only wish his managers and specialists good luck and hope for the best.
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  1. Andrey Yuryevich
    Andrey Yuryevich 23 July 2018 06: 00
    +19
    in short, in the next 30-40 ships of the first rank will appear, not earlier .. maybe ..! ". everything in the plans" with us .... it's like:
    1. yehat
      yehat 25 July 2018 10: 47
      +1
      to restore industry for the construction of the ocean fleet it takes about 5 years in the style of the five-year plans of the USSR. The smooth path to the formation of shipbuilding, as in China, will take 10-15 years and even the construction of the ships themselves 3-5 years.
      But, the government is so far from sane plans for the restoration of the economy and production that even 60 years for the construction of the ocean fleet may be short.
  2. Carib
    Carib 23 July 2018 06: 25
    +5
    And after 5 years we will be left without fish on the shelves, or caught by foreigners, at the 3rd price ...
    1. Alber
      Alber 23 July 2018 13: 26
      +5
      Shipbuilding development strategy up to 2035 year and the ocean fleet of the Russian Federation
      Quote: Carib
      And after 5 years we will be left without fish on the shelves, or caught by foreigners, at the 3rd price ...

      What development? With industry killed by the authorities ...
      1. yehat
        yehat 25 July 2018 10: 38
        +1
        power does not kill industry, it generally kills the ability to do something on their own, except for services. This applies to agriculture, and science and other aspects of the economy. So not only industry is dying. Only the structures of holdings or monopolies focused on a narrow sales market live well - this is the extraction of resources, utilities, energy, military-industrial complex, housing construction. The rest can be hung.
    2. IImonolitII
      IImonolitII 23 July 2018 15: 09
      +7
      I will surprise you, but this is still so. More than 80% of high-quality Russian fish is exported.
    3. yehat
      yehat 25 July 2018 10: 37
      0
      now there is a whole shaft of fish products coming from China that were either caught by our fleet, or in our traditional fishing areas, or simply resold.
  3. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 23 July 2018 06: 59
    +6
    Here explain to me why Russia needs an ocean fleet? Do we have overseas territories like the USA and Britain? Britain includes Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Falklands, Gibraltar, Bermuda, the Virgin Islands and a dozen more islands. The United States has Alaska, Panama (a vital country due to the strategic importance of the Panama Canal to the United States) and a bunch of islands around the oceans. Therefore, of course, Britain and the United States urgently need a powerful fleet, with a fleet superior to the fleet of any country in the world. With the help of this fleet, they defend their overseas possessions and their metropolises, as well as bring "democracy" to rebellious presidents and kings. In addition, Britain is an island, it does not border any country, therefore the presence of a fleet is more important for it than the presence of an army. Similarly, the "island" can be called the United States. The USA is bordered only by Canada and Mexico. Considering Canada and Mexico as serious enemies is simply ridiculous. And from Europe and Russia, the United States is protected by the width of the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. In Russia, the geography is fundamentally opposite: Russia borders on 14 countries, and in the west and south it borders on six extremely hostile countries, of which four are NATO countries. Russia does not even really have access to the oceans, and there is practically no place where the ocean fleet can be located, in the Baltic only narrow coasts of the Leningrad and Kaliningrad regions, and the access from the Baltic to the Atlantic is securely sealed by Denmark, a NATO member. In the Black Sea, access to the Atlantic is also reliably locked by Turkey, also a member of NATO. In the Pacific Ocean, the bay in Vladivostok freezes in winter, and the ships find themselves in ice captivity and in a death trap in case of war, since it will not be difficult to destroy ships frozen into ice. The only place that does not freeze in the winter in the Pacific Ocean is Avacha Bay. In the Arctic, the only place that does not freeze is the northern coast of the Kola Peninsula. Everything, there’s nowhere else to place the ocean fleet.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      23 July 2018 07: 20
      +25
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      Here explain to me why Russia needs an ocean fleet?

      The first is a powerful political tool. 85% of world international trade goes by sea, who can threaten these goods flows is political :)))
      The second is participation in a mess like Syrian. As one American said, “Somosa is a son of a dog, but he is OUR son of a dog.” In general, if we do not want all sorts of Arab springs knocking on our borders, we must support our dog sons.
      A simple example - if I had the mind to support Gaddafi - I would not have to fight in Syria for years
      Third is the Bismarck factor. In conditions of the Big Zavarushka, even a relatively small ocean fleet requires a large concentration of forces to counter - accordingly, these forces cannot manifest themselves elsewhere. For example, we take the Second World War - the only opportunity for German raiders to enter the ocean led to the need for guarded convoys, which, of course, ensured a certain increase in the security of merchant ships at the crossing, but England’s trade immediately slipped by a quarter.
      Fourth, we cannot count on covering the SSBN deployment areas with one mosquito fleet.
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      Similarly, the "island" can be called the United States. The USA is bordered only by Canada and Mexico. Considering Canada and Mexico as serious enemies is simply ridiculous.

      A little brain game. Imagine that the USSR would have the world's first fleet, superior to that of the United States. Do you understand the consequences? Since the European countries of NATO without the support of the United States are unable to fight with the USSR, and the United States, without dominance at sea, could not transfer their army to the continent, all of continental Europe would very quickly end up in the ATS unit :)))))) After which the maintenance of a gigantic army ceased to be expedient for us
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      In the Pacific Ocean, the bay in Vladivostok freezes in winter,

      wassat Google Golden Horn Bay
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 23 July 2018 07: 54
        +6
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The first is a powerful political tool. 85% of world international trade goes by sea, who can threaten these goods flows is political :)))

        The main trading partners of the Russian Federation are China, Germany and the Netherlands. To trade with them, you do not need to have a merchant marine fleet and a convoy for their protection.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The second is participation in a mess like Syrian. As one American said, “Somosa is a son of a dog, but he is OUR son of a dog.” In general, if we do not want all sorts of Arab springs knocking on our borders, we must support our dog sons.
        A simple example - if I had the mind to support Gaddafi - I would not have to fight in Syria for years
        In fact, Russia is not straining in Syria, as a matter of fact, there are fighting tests of new equipment and the use of shells and missiles to be disposed of as training aids.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Third is the Bismarck factor. In conditions of the Big Zavarushka, even a relatively small ocean fleet requires a large concentration of forces to counter - accordingly, these forces cannot manifest themselves elsewhere. For example, we take the Second World War - the only opportunity for German raiders to enter the ocean led to the need for guarded convoys, which, of course, ensured a certain increase in the security of merchant ships at the crossing, but England’s trade immediately slipped by a quarter.

        British ships in WWII were not drowned by raiders, but by submarines. I have nothing against submarines with strategic nuclear weapons, on the contrary, I believe that Russia should direct its main efforts to building submarines with nuclear missiles, which, along with the Strategic Missile Forces, are a deterrent. For American politicians and the military, a Russian submarine sailing up to Los Angeles or Washington, and shuffling vigorous loaves over them, is the worst nightmare. I am against the construction of heavy cruisers and aircraft carriers.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        A little brain game. Imagine that the USSR would have the world's first fleet, superior to that of the United States. Do you understand the consequences? Since the European countries of NATO without the support of the United States are unable to fight with the USSR, and the United States, without dominance at sea, could not transfer their army to the continent, all of continental Europe would very quickly end up in the ATS unit :)))))) After which the maintenance of a gigantic army ceased to be expedient for us

        Of course! Being rich and healthy is very good! But the fact is that the USSR could not simultaneously build and maintain a huge army and ocean fleet, superior to the US fleet.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Google Golden Horn Bay

        Of course, I know that you are not particularly geographic, but I will repeat it for you once again: the winter in Vladivostok is harsher than the Moscow winter, and the Golden Horn Bay even freezes. Follow the link, it just says there about the extremely difficult ice situation last winter: https://www.newsvl.ru/vlad/2018/01/26/167100/
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          23 July 2018 11: 36
          +9
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          The main trading partners of the Russian Federation

          Cat Kuzya, did you even read what I wrote? :)))
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          The first is a powerful political tool. 85% of world international trade goes by sea, who can threaten these goods flows is political :)))

          What does the Russian Federation have to do with it? :)))
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          In fact, Russia is not straining in Syria

          It is in your opinion - it does not strain. In general, to conduct intensive combat operations by an air group under 100LA for years is a bit stressful. And expensive.
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          British ships in WWII drowned not raiders, but submarines

          And the raiders were very worried, despite the fact that there were much fewer submarines.
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          I am against the construction of heavy cruisers and aircraft carriers.

          Read dad Doenitz, how his submarine was bad without aviation
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          follow the link, it just says there about the extremely difficult ice situation last winter

          Read your own link, please. There are no obstacles for warships
          1. prapor55
            prapor55 23 July 2018 12: 26
            +12
            Andrey, if you will, in such a detailed way, REVEAL the meaning of a detailed article for everyone. You risk not writing another good cycle! Let them learn to read off the diagonal. Regards. +
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              23 July 2018 13: 30
              +6
              Quote: prapor55
              Andrei, if you will, in such a detail READY everyone the meaning of a detailed article

              You are absolutely right:)))) hi
            2. ser56
              ser56 23 July 2018 15: 37
              +2
              1) But can the author formulate his arguments more precisely? bully
              2) "In general, conducting intensive military operations by an air group under 100LA for years is a bit stressful. And expensive." There are other data on the composition of the air group on the Web - and 50 are not ... http://balalaika24.ru/security/kak-izmenilsya-sos
              tav-aviagruppy-vks-rf-v-sirii-v-2015-2017-gg
              As for the high cost, do you have any new data? Officially, everything goes within the framework of the budget .... what
              3) "And the raiders were very worried, despite the fact that there were far fewer submarines," the losses from them were just ridiculous compared to submarines ...
              4) "Read dad Doenitz, how his submarine was bad without aviation" do you think the Germans could build an aircraft carrier in the presence of the Eastern Front? bully
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                23 July 2018 16: 15
                +4
                Quote: ser56
                But can the author formulate his arguments more precisely?

                Much more accurate? :)))
                Quote: ser56
                Other data on the composition of the air group on the Web - and there is no 50 ...

                Providing transport aviation? Strategic missile carrier flights? Deck Aviation?
                Quote: ser56
                As for the high cost, do you have any new data? Officially, everything goes within the framework of the budget ....

                And eats away a large enough piece of it. Do you think that the maintenance of such a mass of equipment and weapons and people at Bashar Assad on ponies is cheap?
                Quote: ser56
                "And the raiders were very worried, despite the fact that there were far fewer submarines," the losses from them were just ridiculous compared to submarines ...

                But they pulled the forces on themselves disproportionately, many times more - and these forces were essentially removed from the game, as they could not be used elsewhere.
                Quote: ser56
                Do you think the Germans could build an aircraft carrier phot in the presence of the Eastern Front?

                Yes, it’s easy if you were seriously bothered. 1000 submarines somehow built. This is 550-750 thousand tons of military tonnage, if that.
                By the way, you have such a cute historical joke. Speer in 1943 r asked Hitler to limit the release of hair styling tongs (he wanted to do something military at these industrial facilities). Hitler categorically banned laughing In general, before 1943 r, the Heman economy did not particularly strain on the part of the war
                1. ser56
                  ser56 23 July 2018 16: 35
                  +1
                  "Where more precisely? :)))" I did not see them ... probably dumb ... lol
                  "Providing transport aviation? Strategic missile carrier flights? Deck aviation?" understand, excuses have gone ... bully
                  “And a large enough piece of it eats up. Do you think that maintaining such a mass of equipment and weapons and people at Bashar Assad is cheap on cakes?” I think that the crew’s combat experience is more expensive than regular training at the training grounds, but it’s not much more expensive, despite the inevitable losses request
                  "But they pulled the forces on themselves disproportionately, many times more - and these forces were essentially taken out of the game, because they could not be used elsewhere." as far as I remember from Roskil, anti-German submarines with crews of 40 used submarine forces of about 000 ... and search forces against raiders in any case were needed to control the sea ...
                  ". 1000 submarines somehow built. This is 550-750 thousand tons of military tonnage, if that."
                  debatable - diesel-electric submarines are noticeably simpler to build than large ships - both on slipways and on the systems used ... well, they would have built 3-4 AUGs - that they are against the English and American ...

                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  In general, before 1943 r, the Heman economy did not particularly strain on the part of the war
                  so there was no reason - they won and fought far from the Reich ... I would recommend that you consider this anecdote through the prism of the suffering of the peoples of the USSR in World War II until 1943 ... especially take into account that the military industry of the USSR was mobilized back in 1940 ... feel
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    23 July 2018 17: 06
                    +4
                    Quote: ser56
                    clear, excuses have gone ..

                    Stunned, excuse - that is, when a tank division is fighting, then the cars in its composition should not be considered vehicles? They do not run to the attack with shouts of cheers and machine guns in the tires, so what?
                    Quote: ser56
                    I think that the combat experience of crews is more expensive than regular training at the training grounds, while not much more expensive, despite the inevitable losses

                    Start by studying the intensity of sorties - it has nothing to do with exercises. Add to this the cost of ammunition, the cost of shipping all this magnificence to Syria, and get a multiple difference in cost.
                    Quote: ser56
                    as far as I remember from Roskil, anti-German submarines with crews in 40 000 used submarine forces of about 500 000 ...

                    And against three German LCs, of which 2 were essentially linear cruisers, the Aglichans were forced to use all the latest Kingies, Rodney with Nelson, a four-type R, aircraft carriers, a pack of cruisers, and this was not enough, they asked for the LC from the Yankees.
                    Quote: ser56
                    controversial - DEPL is a noticeably simpler system to build,

                    yes, but the aircraft carrier also does not require heavy armor or heavy guns
                    Quote: ser56
                    I would recommend that you consider this joke through the prism of the suffering of the peoples of the USSR

                    And why, if we are talking about the possibilities of building an AB in Germany?
                    1. ser56
                      ser56 23 July 2018 17: 44
                      +2
                      "Stunned, excuse - that is, when the tank division is fighting, then the cars in its composition do not need to be considered for technology? But they, with shouts of cheers and machine guns in the tires, do not run to the attack, so what?"
                      it’s fun with you - is there an air division in Syria? By the way - I kindly gave you a link to the composition of our air group in Syria on a certain date - from you the lyrics ...
                      “Start by studying the intensity of sorties - it has nothing to do with exercises. Add to this the cost of ammunition, the cost of delivering all this magnificence to Syria, and you will get a multiple difference in cost.” 1) You probably feel like a professor, which gives the student a puzzle? laughing I’m disappointing - it’s not so ... 2) Officially in Syria they spend money from funds for combat training - as I understand it ... Are you ready to refute?
                      "And against three German LCs, of which 2 were essentially linear cruisers, the Aglichans were forced to use all the latest Kingies, Rodney and Nelson, a four-type R, aircraft carriers, a pack of cruisers, and this was not enough, they asked for the LC from the Yankees."
                      So what? the English fleet was built for this ... and completed the task. But the surface fleet of Germany did not fulfill the task of communications and was sent either to the bottom or to the sludge ...
                      "yes, but the aircraft carrier also does not require heavy armor or heavy guns" however it requires a bunch of special devices, such as air finishers, elevators, catapults ... special modifications of the aircraft, training pilots, and most importantly it is very difficult to build them large in series - only the US economy was able to do this ... Well, the construction cycle is big ...
                      "Why, if we are talking about the possibilities of building an AB in Germany?"
                      1) to understand the difference in attitudes towards people
                      2) where does the opportunity come here - Zeppelin was built, the question is whether construction was necessary - its history gives a direct answer - it was not needed ... bully
                      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        23 July 2018 18: 09
                        +5
                        Quote: ser56
                        it’s fun with you - is there an air division in Syria?

                        And its supply by air - where?
                        Quote: ser56
                        Officially in Syria they spend money from funds for combat training - as I understand it ... Are you ready to refute?

                        It doesn’t work like that. The need for the maintenance of a military unit is determined, on the basis of this the budget is already being read. And on what specific article this goes - it does not matter. The point is that if there were no BS in Syria, then the budget item under which these expenses go would be much "worse", and this is not to mention the resource consumption of aircraft.
                        Quote: ser56
                        So what? the English fleet was built for this ... and completed the task

                        At the cost of not being able to oppose anything to Japan (although he really needed it) and put Cunningham on a hungry ration in Middle-earth. Who would tell the British (before the war) that for several years (!!!) they would mess with the Italian fleet ...
                        Quote: ser56
                        1) to understand the difference in attitudes towards people

                        This is beyond the scope of the discussion, and there is no difference in attitude towards the people here - the Fuhrer in the 1942-1943 Mr. still believed that he would win the war without transferring the economy to military tracks.
                        Quote: ser56
                        where is the opportunity - Zeppelin was built, the question is whether it was worth building - its history gives a direct answer - it was not needed ...

                        History just gives the exact opposite answer - it was very necessary. Learn the story :)))) At the same time you will learn by virtue of what troubles it was not completed
            3. Kot_Kuzya
              Kot_Kuzya 23 July 2018 15: 38
              0
              Tobaccos? Is it too shameful to feel like a jackal?
            4. Mooh
              Mooh 23 July 2018 18: 56
              +1
              Haha goat button, and the cat ocean fleet? The cat is clearly not Matroskin, but some kind of Persian, that’s why he doesn’t understand the very liquid :)
            5. The Siberian barber
              The Siberian barber 23 July 2018 22: 05
              +1
              Here, I join))
              One question: "Why does Russia need a large Fleet?" loses the meaning of dialogue)
              Cat Kuzya, please do not be offended))
              1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 23 July 2018 09: 33
        +3
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The first is a powerful political tool. 85% of world international trade goes by sea, who can threaten these goods flows is political :)))

        Main trade flows:
        EU - China
        USA - China
        USA - EU
        Which of these would you like to threaten?
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        As one American said

        There is no authorized source for this quote attributed to the FDR.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I’d be smart enough to support Kadaffi -

        the question of sectoral sanctions would not be 2014, but already in 2011, under the castling.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Imagine that the USSR would have the world's first fleet, superior to that of the United States. Do you understand the consequences?

        Oh, these alternate workers. Hess Peace Prize, Lend-Lease Reich, Silverplate for Moscow. Or which year alternative?
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        After which the maintenance of the giant army ceased to be expedient for us

        It was not appropriate anyway. Expediency in such matters does not solve.
        1. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya 23 July 2018 09: 42
          +3
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          It was not appropriate anyway. Expediency in such matters does not solve.

          Why? In fact, the USSR became one of two superpowers, moreover continental. And the army was more important to him than the fleet. If not for corn, the USSR and China would be able to create a continental alliance as opposed to the maritime alliance of the United States and Britain. And the bald one, such scum, quarreled with Jie Dong, who admired Stalin, and turned China from friend to enemy.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 23 July 2018 10: 03
            +1
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            Why? In fact, the USSR became one of two superpowers, moreover, continental

            As you know, he did not die from this.
            1. Kot_Kuzya
              Kot_Kuzya 23 July 2018 10: 13
              +3
              He died due to the betrayal of the top, led by a stupid labeled man, whose mind was not even enough to grab a billionaire. Probably his district died of worries that she was no longer a billionaire and not the first lady. Fu was sickened to watch her show off, and the tagged one was henpecked.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 23 July 2018 11: 03
                +5
                Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                led by a dumb labeled

                Not lucky for the bald generals, right?
                Specifically, MikhalSergeevich:
                66th - 1st Secretary of the Stavropol City Committee.
                69th - allegedly considered to be deputy chairman of the KGB of the USSR, but this is not accurate.
                70th - 1st Secretary of the CPSU District Committee
                71st - member of the Central Committee of the CPSU
                78th - the youngest secretary of the CPSU Central Committee.
                79th - candidate for membership in the Politburo.
                80th - Member of the Politburo
                85th - during his absence, Chernenko presides over meetings of the Politburo.

                This was a brief reference for those who believe that Gorbachev flew in from 87 with M. Rust and rebuilt it.

                And about the "stupid". Dumb people at the age of 54 do not become general secretaries of the CPSU Central Committee. I guarantee it.
                1. Alex1117
                  Alex1117 23 July 2018 15: 15
                  +2
                  70th, probably, the first secretary is not a "district committee", but a "regional committee"?
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 23 July 2018 15: 21
                    +3
                    Quote: Alex1117
                    70th, probably, the first secretary is not a "district committee", but a "regional committee"?

                    You are right, thanks. Typo.
          2. ser56
            ser56 23 July 2018 15: 40
            +1
            if not secret - would you like another world war? Mao did not mind ... bully
            By the way, for China we are all barbarians ... wink
            “He died because of the treason of the elite,” all states perish so - the question is why did the Soviet elite degenerate so quickly? laughing
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          23 July 2018 11: 40
          +5
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Which of these would you like to threaten?

          You wrote it yourself
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          EU - China
          USA - China
          USA - EU

          Next
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          There is no authorized source for this quote attributed to the FDR.

          But there was American support for Somosa
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          the question of sectoral sanctions would not be 2014, but already in 2011, under the castling.

          You think
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Oh, these alternate workers.

          A small demonstration of the usefulness of the fleet is not an alternative (which is known to require a bifurcation point, etc.)
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          It was not appropriate anyway.

          It was.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 23 July 2018 12: 21
            +2
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            You wrote it yourself
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            EU - China
            USA - China
            USA - EU
            Next

            Good luck.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            But there was American support for Somosa

            And this, as it turned out, was not the best idea.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            A small demonstration of fleet utility is not an alternative

            Naturally. What kind of alternative is there, that ocean Navy instead of the Big Fleet.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            It was.

            For those who do not like the USSR, it’s certainly.
            1. ser56
              ser56 23 July 2018 15: 47
              +6
              I would not formulate this way - who does not like the peoples of the USSR ... feel
              excessive military spending led to the degradation of living standards in the USSR in the late 70s and early 80s ... I note that the issue was not the creation of parity in the military sphere - this was vital to avoid aggression, but in the complete bacchanalia in military construction in the late USSR - 3 like MBT, 82 RPKSN (the enemy has half as much), etc. A sense of proportion was lost, as there was no public / parliamentary control in principle ... hi
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                23 July 2018 16: 16
                +3
                Quote: ser56
                excessive military spending led to the degradation of living standards in the USSR at the end of the 70-beginning of the 80x ...

                Old tradition, but hard to believe. More precisely - I can’t believe it at all
                1. ser56
                  ser56 23 July 2018 16: 40
                  +4
                  I don’t know how in Chelyabinsk, but in Sverdlovsk butter and sausage (boiled) were on coupons ... and this is BEFORE Gorbi’s perestroika ... he himself bought them in stores on VIZ ... hi
                  "More precisely - I can’t believe it at all," but this is not a matter of faith .... according to Chertok, the Korolev Design Bureau worked with 500 workers ... take all the other design bureaus, and it will become clear why the USSR bought tens of millions of tons of grain. bully
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    23 July 2018 17: 09
                    +3
                    Quote: ser56
                    I don’t know how in Chelyabinsk, but in Sverdlovsk butter and sausage (boiled) were on coupons ... and this is BEFORE Gorbi’s perestroika ...

                    Yeah, but here is the military spending here and? :))
                    Quote: ser56
                    and this is not a matter of faith .... according to Chertok, the OKB Korolev worked on the cooperation of 500 000 working ...

                    So what? We now have Roscosmos about half as much.
                    The point is that such comparisons are usually far-fetched - well, they listed the number of all enterprises in this cooperation, and that, in addition to military topics, they were still busy with a lot of things - about neither gu-gu
                    1. ser56
                      ser56 23 July 2018 17: 50
                      0
                      "Yeah, but here is what military spending has to do with it? :))"
                      guns instead of oil ... it has long been said, but it is especially implemented in the USSR ...
                      "and what they, besides military subjects, were still engaged in a whole bunch of things - about that no gu-gu" aha, were engaged, it was not basic production ... Further tell or understand from the selection? bully By the way, there was even a standard - the output of civilian products per ruble RF of these enterprises ... lol
                      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        23 July 2018 17: 59
                        +3
                        Quote: ser56
                        "Yeah, but here is what military spending has to do with it? :))"
                        guns instead of oil ... it has long been said, but it is especially implemented in the USSR ...

                        The USSR did not die because of this, and military spending was not a critical factor.
                        Quote: ser56
                        aha, engaged, there was such a non-main production ... Continue to tell or is it clear from the selection?

                        laughing Re-read your phrase
                        Quote: ser56
                        in Chertok, OKB Korolev worked on the cooperation of 500 000 working ...

                        OKB QUEEN. This is, for a second, half of our peaceful cosmos, if not more :))))) Considering that his contractors have also worked on our other space needs - closer to 100%. And you, along with your devil ... A trace in military spending recorded :)))
                  2. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 23 July 2018 17: 55
                    +1
                    Quote: ser56
                    I don’t know how in Chelyabinsk, but in Sverdlovsk butter and sausage (boiled) were on coupons ... and this is BEFORE Gorbi’s restructuring ... he himself bought them in stores on VIZA

                    You have chosen not the most successful example. It is difficult to find a specialist who will say that in the early 90s the economy of the RSFSR did not sag, and how, compared to the mid-to-late 80s. Nevertheless, the issue of food and not only with it was resolved quickly and radically. That is, the problem of commodity shortages has been completely replaced by the problem of having money.
                    Actually, Gorbi also tried to cut the giant knot of problems of the USSR. Unfortunately, he, like anyone else in the USSR, had no idea how to do this.
                    1. Sweetheart
                      Sweetheart 23 July 2018 18: 09
                      +4
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      In fact, Gorby was trying to cut a giant knot of problems

                      Do not tell your slippers about the reasoning that the branded one was solving something, except for one issue, he was handing over the country.
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      It is difficult to find a specialist who will say that in the early 90s the economy of the RSFSR did not sag, and how, compared to the mid-to-late 80s.

                      The beginning of the 90th RSFSR and even with the stigma, the economy of the USSR as a whole and the RSFSR in particular did not have a negative value, the decline began in 1992 and this is the story of a comprador liberal company temporarily seated in the rulers of the country. By 1998, the country was completely brought to grips. mind stop, and kick out to 99 someone.
                      1. ser56
                        ser56 23 July 2018 18: 26
                        +1
                        The collapse of the USSR economy began in 1988 ... just open the statistical collections ... hi
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 23 July 2018 18: 30
                        +1
                        Quote: The Swordsman
                        handed over the country.

                        In the 90s, Gorbachev was interrupted by freelance advertising PizzaHat, all that. This MikhalSergeechu not a plus, but nonetheless. Take an interest in what was done in the 90s, for example, by the Deputy Minister of the Gas Industry of the USSR Vyakhirev or the Deputy Minister of the Oil and Gas Industry Alikperov.
                        Quote: The Swordsman
                        the fall began in 1992

                        However, it’s easier with grub, it should be noted.
                      3. Sweetheart
                        Sweetheart 23 July 2018 18: 45
                        +3
                        Quote: ser56
                        The collapse of the USSR economy began in 1988 ... just open the statistical collections ...

                        Look, your favorite Gorbachev.
                        http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/05/46
                        And now, your no less beloved Medvedev, curving, confirms that in many positions the Russian Federation has not reached the level of the USSR in 1990.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        However, it’s easier with grub, it should be noted.

                        Well, of course ... they threw something at the shelves that they had not previously given to trade. A wonderful market, speculative step, in the spirit of gaydaronomika.
                        People’s money was taken away, prices were blown up. Ruble depreciated, the counters are full, in achievement ..
                    2. The comment was deleted.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Blackgrifon
                Blackgrifon 23 July 2018 21: 54
                +1
                Quote: ser56
                excessive military spending led to the degradation of living standards in the USSR in the late 70s and early 80s

                As if a little wrong. If you carefully climb according to open data and statistics, then the military spending of the USSR did not exceed similar US spending. The problems of the USSR economy consisted in plannedness and absolute inflexibility: when there is demand and there is no supply.
      3. Setrac
        Setrac 23 July 2018 17: 01
        +3
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Imagine that the USSR would have the world's first fleet

        The USSR would have (the) most fragmented fleet in the world, in the event of a serious upheaval, there is no possibility to unite the fleet, our fleet will be bit by bit.
      4. Olezhek
        Olezhek 23 July 2018 19: 47
        +3
        Imagine that the USSR would have the first fleet in the world, superior to that of the United States. Do you understand the consequences for yourself? Since the European countries of NATO without the support of the United States are unable to fight the USSR, and the United States, without domination at sea, could not deploy its army to the continent,


        1 Imagine: as soon as Kaiser Germany began to create a fleet capable of challenging Britain, its fate was decided
        as soon as the Brezhnev USSR began to rivet large warships with might and main ... how did what happened.
        The Anglo-Saxons would not wait for the happiest moment of creating a super-powerful continental fleet.

        2 Yes, and it was not necessary for the USSR to have a fleet stronger than that of the US - to block the transfer of troops in Europe, just a powerful fleet was enough - and few people will sail from the United States to France.
        In those most crucial weeks of the Soviet cast to the English Channel ...

        3 But even without a powerful fleet, in the event of a decisive rush of Soviet troops to La Manche, there would have been no transfer of American troops to burning Europe in large quantities.
        To Britain - yes, to France - no. Do not believe the American heroic fables about the salvation of Europe.

        4 If it were not possible to destroy the USSR and it would continue to rivet the "aircraft-carrying Kreiser", then maybe at some point, having exhausted all other possibilities, the US would stupidly start a nuclear war ... such things
        They could start it in the case of a hypothetical loss of Europe during the sudden Soviet offensive against the English Channel ...


        without domination at sea, could not transfer their army to the continent, then all continental Europe would very quickly find itself in the ATS block:


        Without nuclear weapons, the United States cannot defend the Baltics, in any way (two or three days and pryvet), but the Baltic is not at all in the ATS ...
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 23 July 2018 22: 05
          0
          Quote: Olezhek
          without a powerful fleet, in the event of a decisive Soviet transfer of troops to the English Channel, there would be no large-scale transfer of American troops to burning Europe.

          The superiority of the USSR in conventional weapons in the European theater of war was observed from the beginning of the 70s to the mid 80s. Mother oil failed - and superiority failed.
          Quote: Olezhek
          Without nuclear weapons, the USA cannot protect the Baltic states

          Can not. Unless, of course, they want to itch. If they manage to tighten aviation and heavy brigades in advance, they will crush them.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            23 July 2018 22: 14
            +4
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            The superiority of the USSR in conventional weapons in the European theater of operations was observed from the beginning of the 70

            Sh ... Shto? :))))) And before that, what happened? :)))))
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 24 July 2018 01: 27
              +2
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              And before that, what happened? :)))))

              Before that, it was not clear. And at the time of “this”, not to mention after “this” it was also not clear. It seems that you somehow personally tried to infect the CE TSD in the “optimal” 85th (T-64B - T-72 - T-80 versus M60 and 105mm abrash), and it actually worked out, but then with aviation, then German 25K snouts were found, together with Leo2. In general, 50/50, whether we meet a dinosaur, or not meet.
              In some 61st it is still incomprehensible, the first F-4 Phantom II against the first MiG-21, still the T-55 against the already M60. It is easy to see that the Americans in the 61st were not too frightened by the prospect of a limited war on European theater.
              1. Vadmir
                Vadmir 24 July 2018 23: 17
                0
                T-55 against M60 already.
                You give models of tanks and planes, forgetting about the number of these same models. And war is not a duel or a knightly duel. The experience of the Second World War showed that the winner is not the one who created the Tiger and Panther, which are beautiful for their time, but the one who riveted more than the T-34 and Sherman.
                1. Vladimir1155
                  Vladimir1155 24 July 2018 23: 52
                  0
                  you are deeply wrong, the t34 and shemans were more optimal than bulky and stalling tigers, t26 and bt 4 were not useful ... https: //topwar.ru/1185-tankostroeni
                  ev-sssr-30-e-gody.html
    2. Sergej1972
      Sergej1972 23 July 2018 09: 50
      +2
      Canada, Australia and New Zealand are not part of the UK. They have their own armed forces, including the Navy. These countries, like India, Pakistan and many others, are part of the amorphous Commonwealth.
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 23 July 2018 10: 10
        +6
        Quote: Sergej1972
        Canada, Australia and New Zealand are not part of the UK. They have their own armed forces, including the Navy. These countries, like India, Pakistan and many others, are part of the amorphous Commonwealth

        Oh my God!!! The British, after all, were masters of propaganda and managed to confuse the heads of many ordinary people by hiding their empire under multi-colored political maps of the world. Here is an example of the Governor-General of Canada: he is the commander in chief of the Canadian armed forces, he appoints and removes federal ministers and judges, he has the right to remove the prime minister, he has the right to dissolve the Parliament of Canada, he has the right to reject the decision of the parliament. So, does Canada have independence from Britain? In my opinion, even any region of Russia has greater independence from Moscow than Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
        1. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya 23 July 2018 10: 31
          +2
          The Canadian Forces are led by the Armed Forces Council, which is led by the Chief of Defense Staff. The commander in chief is the ruling Canadian monarch - Queen Elizabeth II, who is represented by the Governor General of Canada. This is enshrined in article 15 of the Constitutional Act of 1867, according to which the queen has “the main command of the land and sea police and all naval and naval forces of Canada”, as well as the “Police Law” of 1904.
          As a "country with its own armed forces," under the command of London, they can have sovereignty, I hope you will not mind.
        2. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya 23 July 2018 10: 34
          +2
          By the way, Stalin often sinned this. He forced the UN to recognize the RSFSR, USSR, and BSSR as different countries in order to get as many votes as possible in the UN. For him, the teachers were the British, who made Canada, Australia and New Zealand separate countries, although they were and were part of Britain.
          1. ser56
            ser56 23 July 2018 15: 48
            0
            He wanted all 15/16 republics, but the allies did not agree ... lol
    3. To be or not to be
      To be or not to be 23 July 2018 12: 54
      0
      Cat_Kuzya (Kuzma) Today, 06:59
      Explain to me why Russia needs an ocean fleet? ""
      ECONOMY .. Not only to produce, but to be able and have something to deliver products to customers
      Why produce if .. not sell ?? So the elements of trade routes are built ..
    4. Alber
      Alber 23 July 2018 13: 05
      +2
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      Here explain to me why Russia needs an ocean fleet? Do we have overseas territories like the USA and Britain? Britain includes Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Falklands, Gibraltar, Bermuda, the Virgin Islands and a dozen more islands. The United States has Alaska, Panama (a vital country due to the strategic importance of the Panama Canal to the United States) and a bunch of islands around the oceans. Therefore, of course, Britain and the United States urgently need a powerful fleet, with a fleet superior to the fleet of any country in the world. With the help of this fleet, they defend their overseas possessions and their metropolises, as well as bring "democracy" to rebellious presidents and kings. In addition, Britain is an island, it does not border any country, therefore the presence of a fleet is more important for it than the presence of an army. Similarly, the "island" can be called the United States. The USA is bordered only by Canada and Mexico. Considering Canada and Mexico as serious enemies is simply ridiculous. And from Europe and Russia, the United States is protected by the width of the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. In Russia, the geography is fundamentally opposite: Russia borders on 14 countries, and in the west and south it borders on six extremely hostile countries, of which four are NATO countries. Russia does not even really have access to the oceans, and there is practically no place where the ocean fleet can be located, in the Baltic only narrow coasts of the Leningrad and Kaliningrad regions, and the access from the Baltic to the Atlantic is securely sealed by Denmark, a NATO member. In the Black Sea, access to the Atlantic is also reliably locked by Turkey, also a member of NATO. In the Pacific Ocean, the bay in Vladivostok freezes in winter, and the ships find themselves in ice captivity and in a death trap in case of war, since it will not be difficult to destroy ships frozen into ice. The only place that does not freeze in the winter in the Pacific Ocean is Avacha Bay. In the Arctic, the only place that does not freeze is the northern coast of the Kola Peninsula. Everything, there’s nowhere else to place the ocean fleet.

      Anglo-Saxon Zionists traders, bankers and money-lenders who put their dirty and bloody paws wherever there are any significant energy resources certainly do not need a strong Russia with a powerful fleet. For them, a balm for the soul if our industry is destroyed, the army is weakened, ethnic conflicts, or wars, take place. They are like a sickle in one place, if something is being built in Russia, the armed forces are created and strengthened.
      THEY will constantly weave their vile and secret machinations in order to destroy the country, provoke ethnic conflicts, drag us into some sort of slaughter
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 23 July 2018 17: 06
        +3
        Quote: Alber
        Anglo-Saxon Zionists traders, bankers and money-lenders who put their dirty and bloody paws wherever there are any significant energy resources certainly do not need a strong Russia with a powerful fleet.

        It is necessary to invest in the space fleet, master other planets
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 23 July 2018 21: 53
        +1
        Quote: Alber
        where there are any significant energy resources

        Why didn’t these kids really occupy Libya? Iraq? Kuwait? Qatar?
        Quote: Alber
        For them, a balm for the soul if our industry is destroyed, the army is weakened, ethnic conflicts, or wars, take place.

        Well, at least someone is good.
    5. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 24 July 2018 10: 36
      +2
      I agree the ocean surface fleet is not needed, but the submarine ocean fleet is essential
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 23 July 2018 08: 57
    +1
    But are our shipowners able to pay for the purchase of all these transports, rollers, tankers and seiners?
    .... Able ... abroad ... cheaper there ... And not necessarily new, but what was already in operation ..
  5. Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 23 July 2018 09: 16
    +5
    It seems that the author seriously describes the beautiful Russia of the future, in which there is a military legal proceedings shipbuilding, including as many AVs, but civilian, including river - no. Well, that is, the Ministry of Industry and Industry is understandable, for that he and the Ministry of Industry, in order to write such papers, but the author ...
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      23 July 2018 11: 43
      +2
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      It seems that the author seriously describes

      The document of the Ministry of Industry entitled “The Strategy for the Development of the Shipbuilding Industry for the Period until 2035”.
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      writes beautiful Russia of the future, in which there is a military legal proceedings, shipbuilding, including as many AVs, but civilian, including river - no.

      laughing fool
  6. silver_roman
    silver_roman 23 July 2018 11: 50
    +1
    72,57 dollars, and there are no special prerequisites for its sharp fall in the near future.

    when oil was 100+ dollars, there was no sign of trouble either. Now Trump will write some other rubbish on Twitter and the oil will fall again to 40 or the Saudi king will choke on a stone from the cherry ....
    the author of this article has long had a strong feeling that in these statistics not only lifebuoys are taken into account separately, but, perhaps, galley tanks as well ...

    fishing rod floats also count lol

    About the citizen of course it is sad to read.
  7. nikvic46
    nikvic46 23 July 2018 12: 58
    +1
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    By the way, Stalin often sinned this. He forced the UN to recognize the RSFSR, USSR, and BSSR as different countries in order to get as many votes as possible in the UN. For him, the teachers were the British, who made Canada, Australia and New Zealand separate countries, although they were and were part of Britain.

    I remembered a press conference with the participation of Khrushchev N.S. He was asked "If you say that you have free republics, can Ukraine join France?" The answer is "I'm afraid that in time, France will join the USSR together with Ukraine." Not literally.
  8. vlad007
    vlad007 23 July 2018 13: 01
    +2
    Shipbuilding is not fully loaded because potential customers have no money or for other reasons?
    The article is interesting, as always with Andrei, but the article does not at least attempt a comprehensive analysis of the state of shipbuilding, taking into account the capabilities of suppliers of basic materials and components - metal, engines, etc. I know from my own experience that Russia received a very large amount of metal from Ukraine, and now the situation has changed.
  9. nikvic46
    nikvic46 23 July 2018 13: 13
    +3
    You need to start with the fleet, which provides revenue to the state. It is unreasonable to build and build this program, in view of the large
    The Navy’s energy consumption. I’m confused by the lack of marine refrigerators, that is, which coasts will be located
    fishing vessels, will they sell the whole catch there? As for factories of component parts, assemblies, mechanisms and
    other things, it was a scourge before, this scourge has remained to this day. All industry suffers from this. How do they begin to build a plant? Oddly enough from a warehouse, and focus on a complete set.
  10. Oleg Tolstoy
    Oleg Tolstoy 23 July 2018 13: 31
    +1
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    Here explain to me why Russia needs an ocean fleet? Do we have overseas territories like the USA and Britain? Britain includes Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Falklands, Gibraltar, Bermuda, the Virgin Islands and a dozen more islands. The United States has Alaska, Panama (a vital country due to the strategic importance of the Panama Canal to the United States) and a bunch of islands around the oceans. Therefore, of course, Britain and the United States urgently need a powerful fleet, with a fleet superior to the fleet of any country in the world. With the help of this fleet, they defend their overseas possessions and their metropolises, as well as bring "democracy" to rebellious presidents and kings. In addition, Britain is an island, it does not border any country, therefore the presence of a fleet is more important for it than the presence of an army. Similarly, the "island" can be called the United States. The USA is bordered only by Canada and Mexico. Considering Canada and Mexico as serious enemies is simply ridiculous. And from Europe and Russia, the United States is protected by the width of the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. In Russia, the geography is fundamentally opposite: Russia borders on 14 countries, and in the west and south it borders on six extremely hostile countries, of which four are NATO countries. Russia does not even really have access to the oceans, and there is practically no place where the ocean fleet can be located, in the Baltic only narrow coasts of the Leningrad and Kaliningrad regions, and the access from the Baltic to the Atlantic is securely sealed by Denmark, a NATO member. In the Black Sea, access to the Atlantic is also reliably locked by Turkey, also a member of NATO. In the Pacific Ocean, the bay in Vladivostok freezes in winter, and the ships find themselves in ice captivity and in a death trap in case of war, since it will not be difficult to destroy ships frozen into ice. The only place that does not freeze in the winter in the Pacific Ocean is Avacha Bay. In the Arctic, the only place that does not freeze is the northern coast of the Kola Peninsula. Everything, there’s nowhere else to place the ocean fleet.


    The security of a small country. in the first place, its poverty in natural resources and other wealth, its “third-party”, impassable geographical position, and non-participation in military-political blocs ..
    The security of a large and potentially rich country, which also has an advantageous geographical position, lies much further than its geographical borders .. The larger the country, the wider this security zone - the “foreground” Whether it was Stalin, in the 30s without even the resource to close the White Sea from the raids of fishing pirates-norgs who had nightmares of the coasts (the problem was solved only after the White Sea-Baltic Canal was launched) he sent military advisers and even whole military units to Spain, China, Mongolia and .d? For nothing, did the developed USSR feed Finland and Iraq, create, defend and feed the "Socialist Commonwealth"? Russia, together with China and Central Asia, is the "Heartland" - the middle land, - the heart of the World, reading the Monk Zbynek Brzezinski. I won’t even offtop about natural resources and alarming climate forecasts, the flood, etc. Have you again gathered to defend mother Russia, retreating to Chita and Volgograd, in the best case, supporting separatists in neighboring unfriendly pseudo-democracies ?! Fine it!
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 23 July 2018 17: 09
      +2
      Quote: Oleg Tolstoy
      And you again gathered to defend mother Russia, retreating to Chita and Volgograd

      And how could the fleet stop the Wehrmacht? By your logic, you must abandon the fleet in favor of the ground forces.
    2. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 24 July 2018 10: 45
      +2
      imperialism is very expensive, you brought the USSR to Spain (you received the Spanish fascist legion in the Novgorod region, and it was only thanks to the wisdom and peace of General Franco mv that they didn’t get help from Hitler in the size of the Spanish army), but nothing came from Angola and Afghanistan and other "friends" except zinc coffins and the poverty of their own people. To expand the borders of the Russian Federation, the ocean fleet is not needed, maybe you take off so high that the govs die in the Angola, and we fly our boys to death, we shall fly. “May there always be sunshine, may there always be me”, only defending one’s country justifies war (Constitution of the Russian Federation)
  11. asv363
    asv363 23 July 2018 13: 31
    0
    But in order for our icebreaker fleet to fulfill its tasks, it is necessary to build 3 nuclear icebreakers according to project 10510, five - according to project 22220 and four more icebreakers for the export of LNG and oil through the Gulf of Ob - and seven of them should be commissioned before the end of 2025, but they have not yet been laid ...

    In total, under project 22220, our colleagues shipped reactor equipment for three nuclear-powered icebreakers. For the cephalic “Arctic” and two serial “Siberia” and “Ural”. More orders from Rosatomflot have been received. One hope is if there is something on the Leader project.
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 23 July 2018 22: 47
      +1
      If someone forgot, financing of the Arctic program of the Russian Federation, quietly, without undue noise, was reduced by twenty times. I don’t think there was money left for the Leader.
  12. Oleg Tolstoy
    Oleg Tolstoy 23 July 2018 13: 43
    +1
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    Here explain to me why Russia needs an ocean fleet? Do we have overseas territories like the USA and Britain? Britain includes Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Falklands, Gibraltar, Bermuda, the Virgin Islands and a dozen more islands. The United States has Alaska, Panama (a vital country due to the strategic importance of the Panama Canal to the United States) and a bunch of islands around the oceans. Therefore, of course, Britain and the United States urgently need a powerful fleet, with a fleet superior to the fleet of any country in the world. With the help of this fleet, they defend their overseas possessions and their metropolises, as well as bring "democracy" to rebellious presidents and kings. In addition, Britain is an island, it does not border any country, therefore the presence of a fleet is more important for it than the presence of an army. Similarly, the "island" can be called the United States. The USA is bordered only by Canada and Mexico. Considering Canada and Mexico as serious enemies is simply ridiculous. And from Europe and Russia, the United States is protected by the width of the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. In Russia, the geography is fundamentally opposite: Russia borders on 14 countries, and in the west and south it borders on six extremely hostile countries, of which four are NATO countries. Russia does not even really have access to the oceans, and there is practically no place where the ocean fleet can be located, in the Baltic only narrow coasts of the Leningrad and Kaliningrad regions, and the access from the Baltic to the Atlantic is securely sealed by Denmark, a NATO member. In the Black Sea, access to the Atlantic is also reliably locked by Turkey, also a member of NATO. In the Pacific Ocean, the bay in Vladivostok freezes in winter, and the ships find themselves in ice captivity and in a death trap in case of war, since it will not be difficult to destroy ships frozen into ice. The only place that does not freeze in the winter in the Pacific Ocean is Avacha Bay. In the Arctic, the only place that does not freeze is the northern coast of the Kola Peninsula. Everything, there’s nowhere else to place the ocean fleet.


    The security of a small country. in the first place, its poverty in natural resources and other wealth, its “third-party”, impassable geographical position, and non-participation in military-political blocs ..
    The security of a large and potentially rich country, which also has an advantageous geographical position, lies much further than its geographical borders .. The larger the country, the wider this security zone - the “foreground” Whether it was Stalin, in the 30s without even the resource to close the White Sea from the raids of fishing pirates-norgs who had nightmares of the coasts (the problem was solved only after the White Sea-Baltic Canal was launched) he sent military advisers and even whole military units to Spain, China, Mongolia, etc. d? For nothing, did the developed USSR feed Finland and Iraq, create, defend and develop, sometimes even to the detriment of its own development, the “Socialist Commonwealth”?

    Russia, together with China and Central Asia, it is the "Heartland" - the middle land, - the heart of the World, reading the "reverend" Zbynek laughing . I won’t even be offensive about the resource crisis and the alarming climatic forecasts, sea level rise, etc. Have you again gathered to defend mother Russia, retreating to Chita and Volgograd, at best supporting separatists in neighboring unfriendly pseudo-democracies ?! And to keep this "base" despite the fact that almost half of the external borders are maritime, have you gathered without a fleet? No. .Small and unwise!
  13. Alex1117
    Alex1117 23 July 2018 14: 43
    0
    Where does the cargo turnover come from in ports ???? Yes, which is expressed by only one indicator - tons.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      23 July 2018 14: 45
      0
      Here is what Strategy writes about it
      The dynamics of cargo turnover of Russian ports in recent years shows steady growth. The cargo turnover of Russian seaports in 2016 amounted to 721,9 million tons. It is forecasted that by 2020 it will reach the level of 884 million tons, by 2025 - 995 million tons, by 2030 and in the future, about 1129 million tons.
  14. ser56
    ser56 23 July 2018 18: 32
    +2
    "The USSR did not die because of this, and military spending was not a critical factor."
    this is your opinion and not the right one ... it was the problems of the economy that led to the collapse of the USSR, they arose precisely because of the country's excessive stress, one of the main reasons for which was military spending ... This is not the only reason, but one of the main ... bully
    "Re-read your phrase" why? I completely know what I’m writing - if you do not understand the meaning - I’m chewing ... not the main production, so the resources and workforce are based on the residual principle ... hi
    “OKB QUEEN. For a second, this is half of our peaceful space, if not more :))))) Considering that his counteragents also worked on our other cosmic needs - closer to 100%. And you and your hell ... A trace in military spending recorded :))) "
    peaceful space in the USSR? However you are a comedian ... bully By the way, Chertok is a very respected specialist, if your knowledge in this area is garbage, then do not scold the deceased ... negative
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      23 July 2018 19: 01
      +3
      Quote: ser56
      this is your opinion and not the right one ... it is precisely the problems of the economy that led to the collapse of the USSR, they arose precisely because of the country's excessive stress

      Well, if your economic decline in the USSR began in 1988, then we hardly have anything to talk about. Keep quoting post-perestroika ravings like this
      Quote: ser56
      peaceful space in the USSR? However, you are a comedian.

      There’s nothing to talk about. You also know the history of Russian cosmonautics as you know the history of the economy of the USSR.
    2. Sweetheart
      Sweetheart 23 July 2018 19: 04
      +2
      Quote: ser56
      , one of the main reasons for which was military spending ... This is not the only reason, but one of the main.

      This is complete nonsense. Do not read the binder Flame at night.
      Quote: ser56
      not the main production, then resources and labor based on the residual principle ...

      Even more nonsense. What is proved by your passage, by the works of ASFALKRESTYAN TYPE AFANASYEV OR TALKER GAVRILA POPOV?
      Quote: ser56
      peaceful space in the USSR? However you are a comedian ...

      You want to say that he was not? A charming confession of his stupidity ....
    3. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 24 July 2018 10: 51
      +2
      in general, I agree, but I think that it was not military spending alone that killed the USSR, but excessive and meaningless military spending killed the USSR, and I think that it was pointless? namely, only large NKs were meaningless in the structure of military expenditures of the USSR. In relation to the article under discussion, we need to revive the merchant and fishing fleet, a fact! if you start the senseless battleships AB, super destroyers ... then where to get the new merchant ships?
  15. ser56
    ser56 23 July 2018 18: 43
    +1
    "And supplying it by air - where?"
    and the supply by sea? Do you know the logistics structure? I don’t, but I reasonably believe that the fuel and ammunition are supplied by the Syrian express ... I note that you did not bother to prove your 100 aircraft ... bully
    "It doesn’t work like that. The need for the maintenance of a military unit is determined, on the basis of this the budget is already being read. And for which specific article this goes - it doesn’t matter."
    I understand that you are poorly versed in budget financing ... bully
    "The point is that if there were no BS in Syria, then the budget item under which these expenses go would be much" worse ", and this is not to mention the resource consumption of aircraft."
    Crew training always involves the consumption of resources and material resources ... bully

    “At the cost of not being able to oppose Japan (although he really needed it) and put Cunningham in the middle of the world on a hungry rations. Who would tell the British (before the war) that they would mess with the Italian fleet for several years (!!!). .. "
    Motivatedly, I believe that supplying England is more important than the Far East Theater ... Strategy a priori involves concentration of forces, and not their smearing ...
    "This is beyond the scope of the discussion, and there is no difference in attitude towards the people here - the Führer in 1942– on 1943 still believed that he would win the war without transferring the economy to military tracks."
    you raised the topic ... I’m writing - the IVS transferred the economy even before Hitler’s attack ... it didn’t help much ...

    "History just gives the exact opposite answer - it was very necessary. Learn history :)))) At the same time, you will learn by virtue of what troubles it was not completed"
    Mutually exclusive conclusions follow from your phrase ... laughing More precisely, one - the author is not able to reasonably present her arguments and prefers a mentor tone ... looks funny and presumptuous ... crying
  16. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    23 July 2018 18: 57
    +1
    Quote: ser56
    The fall of the USSR economy began in 1988 ... just open the statistics collections ..

    (heavy sigh), unlike you, I opened the statistics directories, so I know that the collapse of the USSR economy began in the first half of the 70-s. And the first swallows wound up at the beginning of 60's
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 24 July 2018 10: 53
      0
      it was in the first half of 70 that the mass, meaningless construction of destroyers and cruisers began, and a bulky and costly fleet began to form
  17. ser56
    ser56 23 July 2018 18: 58
    +2
    Sweetheart,
    "Look, your favorite Gorbachev.http: //www.proza.ru/2010/09/05/46
    And now, your no less beloved Medvedev. Curling, confirms that in many positions the Russian Federation has not reached the level of the USSR in 1990. "
    You have a weird approach:
    1) you know who I love
    2) you use the opinion of those whom you do not like to prove your thesis ... bully
    I lived as an adult in the USSR and I know how it was there, you do not seem to have lived, and therefore you believe nonsense ... crying
    "Well, of course .. they threw something at the shelves that they hadn’t given to trade before. A wonderful market, speculative step, in the spirit of gaydaronomics. People’s money was taken away, prices were blown up. The ruble depreciated, the counters are full, to achieve .."
    And so all 27 years since the end of the USSR? bully Just for your understanding - the Russian Federation does not buy, but sells grain, produces 2 times more chicken than the whole USSR .... love
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 23 July 2018 21: 50
      0
      Quote: ser56
      Just for your understanding - the Russian Federation does not buy, but sells grain, produces 2 times more chicken than the whole USSR ....

      It's not all chocolate. The chicken is not bad, the bird is the most high-speed sub-industry. With cattle, everything is sad when I was last interested. At the expense of grain - this is fodder grain.
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 24 July 2018 10: 55
        0
        but this grain is sold, not bought!
  18. ser56
    ser56 23 July 2018 19: 05
    0
    "Everything is complicated with the economy of the USSR. With its industry imbalances and cross-subsidization there, the devil Gosplan himself will not understand what is growing and what is falling."
    but this is true - the problem was also due to the State Planning Commission ... bully
    "Yes, it was for everyone. In the USSR there was more money than goods."
    who argues, there were only those who had a lot of money on books, and there were poor people ... it was simply not advertised in the USSR ...
    "Have you converted to dollars at the official rate? In vain, even if you forget about dollar inflation."
    no, by purchasing power - most of the most important goods now cost something like this ...

    "The structure of the consumer basket has changed dramatically, now it is impossible to compare. The metro token in Moscow, for example, has grown 1000 times, from 5 kopecks to 50 rubles. A bottle of vodka - only 57 times, from 3,62 to 205 rubles."
    you are an optimist about vodka ... I bought from 4-12 ... bully I gave a rough comparison - but quite true, but in the details you can drown anything ...
    "No, not for everyone and not for."
    if not a secret - how many years have you worked in the USSR? I am after university for 9 years ... bully I can tell you this ... moreover, I’m not on a collective farm or housing department, although I was sent to collective farms ... crying
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 23 July 2018 21: 48
      +1
      Quote: ser56
      the problem was also due to the State Planning Commission

      You can’t list everything there, because of which there were problems.
      Quote: ser56
      who argue, there were only those who had a lot of money on books,

      You did not understand. I’m not talking about income stratification (“If there are any banknotes in the country, then there must be people who have a lot of them” (c), I mean that the number of rubles did not correspond to the number of consumer goods that were offered for sale In this regard, it is impossible to establish an equilibrium price level.
      Quote: ser56
      I gave a rough comparison - but true enough

      It is impossible to evaluate now.
      Quote: ser56
      I can tell you this ... moreover, I’m not on a collective farm or housing department

      So is it you with your sidekicks-drunks Union ruined? There it’s opened! drinks
      I didn’t have a chance to work in the USSR. But constructions with the words "all" and "nobody" are used to being careful.
  19. Usher
    Usher 23 July 2018 19: 45
    +2
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    Here explain to me why Russia needs an ocean fleet?

    What an idiotic question?
  20. The comment was deleted.
  21. Curious
    Curious 23 July 2018 20: 43
    +2
    "Further, the "Strategy" reports on the existence of three scenarios for the development of the shipbuilding industry: which of them will "work" depends on the general state of the country's economy. "
    And further - everything in relation to oil prices and the dollar.
    I wonder what China is attached to in its plans?
    1. The Siberian barber
      The Siberian barber 23 July 2018 23: 20
      +1
      The binding is obvious. priorities at this stage))
  22. The Siberian barber
    The Siberian barber 23 July 2018 22: 12
    +2
    The author deservedly mentioned about Rechflot .. More precisely, about his remains
    If, "at sea" is somehow not shaky or swell, that is, bad, then, on the rivers, utter ruin. In the cost of transportation, on the rivers is the most! How often, it happens with us, everything needs to be started, practically from scratch
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 23 July 2018 22: 56
      +1
      What are you planning to transport along the rivers? There is no boom in industry or construction. One chicken of the third grade has grown, but it is eaten locally.
      1. The Siberian barber
        The Siberian barber 24 July 2018 00: 06
        0
        wassat You are right) with industry, and with agricultural, as it is not buzzing
        But, in the end, this cannot go on forever. Anyway, to forget this topic is simply stupid, because a competitor to trucking, for sure (gentlemen, ring-cutting coupons from "Plato", they will not be happy, essno)))
      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        24 July 2018 00: 54
        +2
        Quote: Saxahorse
        What are you planning to transport along the rivers?

        This is five :)))) What they carry now, rivers are excellent transport arteries and will be like this for a very long time. And they transport mainly construction materials, timber, oil, coal. In principle, the share of river transport in the total cargo turnover is small, but in some regions it exceeds 50% of the total cargo turnover.
        By the way, cargo and bulk river-sea vessels transport tens of millions of tons of cargo per year outside the Russian Federation
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 24 July 2018 23: 18
          0
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          And they transport mainly construction materials, timber, oil, coal. In principle, the share of river transport in the total cargo turnover is small,

          Here you are absolutely right. Mostly timber is being transported now from Siberia to China. Well, or to the nearest railway and then anyway to China. There is no need to worry about this business when everything is finally rusted by the Chinese comrades.

          In other regions, significant river flows are not observed. For the transportation of building materials, large-scale construction projects are needed. They are simply not there. Oil is pumped mainly by pipes plus railway. In general, that’s all .. The need for a river fleet has disappeared after the domestic industry.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            25 July 2018 17: 13
            0
            Quote: Saxahorse
            Mostly timber is being transported now from Siberia to China. Well, or to the nearest railway and then anyway to China.

            Fantasy unconfirmed again
            1. Saxahorse
              Saxahorse 25 July 2018 22: 00
              +2
              The fact that you do not correlate the size of the river fleet with the real need for it. They just took the numbers of the Soviet fleet and calculated the uncompensated knockout. The fact that the economy is also "dropped out" you do not take into account.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                26 July 2018 00: 54
                0
                Quote: Saxahorse
                Just took the numbers of the Soviet fleet

                fool The figures are current, you are our comedian :)
                1. Saxahorse
                  Saxahorse 26 July 2018 23: 32
                  +2
                  No, how stubborn you are laughing

                  Okay, you don’t want a good one with numbers. In 1990, 561,7 million tons of cargo were transported by river transport, in 1998 - 105 million tons of cargo, and finally, in 2017, 118 mil. tons of cargo. We observe a decrease in traffic volume by 4.8 times and the decline continues.

                  At the same time, in 1990 there were a total of 44654 vessels of all classes. At the end of 2015, 16 units were registered under the class of the Russian River Register. transport ships, self-propelled - 946 8 units. (503%, of which passenger and cargo-passenger ships - 50,1 1 units) non-self-propelled - 355 8 units.
                  Thus, we observe a decrease in the number of vessels by 2.6 times.

                  In total, we see that today we have about twice as many ships as are required for the transportation of today's volumes of cargo. Excuse me, but you with your proposal:
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  The river fleet is even worse - to restore it, we need to build five to six thousand ships in the next 18 years,

                  .. Guessed exactly the opposite. We can’t build, God forbid we still have to dispose of some 8-9 thousand ships. Alas, the fact that a falling economy does not need new ships.
  23. Revansh
    Revansh 23 July 2018 22: 21
    +3
    Our government has much more priority things, for example, the construction of the next Yeltsin center ...
    This is so necessary for the Russian people!
    1. The comment was deleted.
  24. barsuk
    barsuk 24 July 2018 09: 22
    0
    But I wonder if there is at least some effective remedy against AUG, except for wall to wall (AUG us AUG)?
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 27 July 2018 16: 27
      0
      there is such a tool, this submarine is guaranteed to destroy AUG, and coast-based aviation, I don’t say on coastal missile systems, no AUG will come close to them in their right mind
  25. Romario_Argo
    Romario_Argo 24 July 2018 09: 30
    +2
    Where are the Americans with their 300 ship fleet

    in the U.S. Navy 240 ships against the Russian Navy - 420 ships
    aircraft carriers -10, cr. Ticongeroga -22, em.A. Burke-68, scroll Fridem-5, scroll Independent.- 8, scroll Cyclone-13, SSBN Ohio-14, SSB Ohio - 4 Angel-PLAT , Seafield -33, Virginia -3, Headquarters - 16, UDC Osp -2, America-8, DVK Austin-1, St. Antonio -1, DTDocky Island -11, X-Ferry -8, XR-4
    * the same anti-ship missile Granite doesn’t give a damn about the ship’s class: to the bottom (!) - at what with range, lack of opposition
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      24 July 2018 11: 24
      0
      Quote: Romario_Argo
      in the US Navy 240 ships against the Russian Navy - 420 ships

      laughing fool
      1. Romario_Argo
        Romario_Argo 24 July 2018 18: 02
        +2
        they are not funny, our anti-ship missiles have a range of destruction without entering the range of their anti-ship missiles. fool
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          25 July 2018 13: 41
          0
          Quote: Romario_Argo
          they are not funny, our anti-ship missiles have a range of destruction without entering the range of their anti-ship missiles.

          Roman, tell these tales on the Dasunas website. AUG of the USA fulfills attacks at a distance of up to 1 700 km, which obviously covers the range of any anti-ship missiles that we have except for the indistinct “Dagger”.
        2. gunnerminer
          gunnerminer 14 October 2018 10: 52
          -2
          - our anti-ship missiles have a destruction range without entering the range zone -

          This will work for the ears of young inmates.
  26. Romario_Argo
    Romario_Argo 24 July 2018 09: 34
    +1
    The only positive that the author of this article was able to see is that judging by the text of the Strategy, our Ministry of Industry and Industry is very clearly aware of the problems facing domestic shipbuilding, and he does not close his eyes to them, but tries to solve them, and moreover, to solve them systematically.

    author. go to the site: done with us (!) - develop your fictions already - with facts (!)
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      24 July 2018 11: 34
      +3
      Quote: Romario_Argo
      author. go to the site: done with us (

      Great :)))) I am parsing a document MINSUDPROM, but in spite of this they suggest going to the "doneunas" site :)))))
      I’m wondering (purely theoretically) will someday find a happy time when IQ will be checked when registering on sites?
      1. Romario_Argo
        Romario_Argo 24 July 2018 12: 45
        +2
        not always something looks like the way you look at it .... the Ministry of Industry is wonderful, but you distort reality by your variation. if you pick up additional information, and do not drive horses, in order to quickly print the article. THAT (!) You will see for yourself that the conclusions on the article will already be different (!)
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          24 July 2018 14: 56
          0
          Quote: Romario_Argo
          Minsudprom is wonderful, but you distort reality by your variation.

          Yes, it’s not a question, open the document with which I worked, and quote where I and what distorted. Weak? Naturally weak :))))
          Then continue to rejoice at the information about a dozen or two civilian ships handed over to “doneunas”.
          1. Romario_Argo
            Romario_Argo 24 July 2018 17: 28
            +1
            Then continue to rejoice at the information about a dozen or two civilian ships handed over

            it’s not only ships, it’s also working people, modernized and launched after the downtime of the shipyard
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              24 July 2018 17: 57
              0
              Quote: Romario_Argo
              it's not only ships

              "Do not go into yourself a mechanic, they will find you there in two counts"
              The Strategy stipulates that we build hundreds of ships on the strength where we need thousands (civilian fleet). Will we argue? :))) How many civil ships were built on your "donenas"? Come on, refute the Ministry of Industry in numbers :)))
              Quote: Romario_Argo
              they are also working people, modernized and launched after the downtime of the shipyard

              Yeah. Idle at 40-50% of available capacity (according to the Ministry of Industry and Trade)
              1. Romario_Argo
                Romario_Argo 24 July 2018 18: 05
                +2
                I see that the authorities are doing, doing and doing - you are just not happy with everything. And you will always be not happy. Maybe your honor will soon be called some sort of square in Washington .... laughing
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  25 July 2018 13: 39
                  +2
                  Quote: Romario_Argo
                  I see that the authorities are doing, doing and doing - you are just not happy with everything.

                  And again, past. That is, I, of course, am dissatisfied. But there is a Ministry of Industry and Trade document according to which our position in the shipbuilding industry (both ship repair and port) is very bad. That is, the structure of the government is dissatisfied with the state of affairs, and the ministry is very significant. She obviously shares my dissatisfaction with me if she writes such things even in such a defining bravura thing as strategy.
                  So one Roman is happy with us :)))
                  1. Vladimir1155
                    Vladimir1155 25 July 2018 21: 15
                    -1
                    not surprising, the ministry wants money to solve problems and motivates it ....... and you believed
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      26 July 2018 00: 54
                      +1
                      Quote: vladimir1155
                      not surprisingly, the ministry wants money to solve problems and

                      ... blatantly lying about the completely outdated civilian fleet? :)))))) Vladimir, tie up with hard drugs :))))
                2. gunnerminer
                  gunnerminer 14 October 2018 10: 51
                  -2
                  - I see that power does, does and does -

                  The results are not the most impressive. Compared to Korean, for example, shipbuilders.
  27. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 24 July 2018 11: 03
    0
    right strategy! for it is based on the postulates of Amelko and my postulates and postulates of all objective specialists. For those who like to dream about AB, there is a crane that “when the cancer hangs down on the mountain, the neighbor dies, the litter shines, I will be young again, then, then we’ll start on AB, there will be money, after a complete renewal of the merchant fleet, seiners, aviation, missiles, tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, small arms, space forces, new roads, bridges, affordable apartments for everyone, the development of all types of industry, and agriculture, high and early pensions ..... then ... of course .... we’ll find money for AB and destroyers the size of a battleship ... if we don’t change our minds
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      24 July 2018 11: 35
      +2
      Quote: vladimir1155
      right strategy! for it is based on the postulates of Amelko and my postulates

      Read the article, wise guy :)))))
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 24 July 2018 16: 23
        +1
        thanks Andrey, of course I’m smart, for I read the strategy, not Andrey’s dreams
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          24 July 2018 17: 52
          +1
          Quote: vladimir1155
          for I read the strategy, not Andrei’s dreams

          And how do your postulates fit with the construction of ships of the ocean fleet prescribed in the strategy? By an aircraft carrier inclusive? :)
          Liar
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 24 July 2018 23: 55
            0
            nuclear submarines are being built, oceanic ones, and about AB where the terms, number and contracts are listed ..... I don’t see, you yourself are a liar, because you have no arguments besides kindergarten name-calling
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              25 July 2018 13: 32
              +2
              Quote: vladimir1155
              I do not see

              Open and read the strategy.
              Quote: vladimir1155
              because you have no arguments

              Yeah :)) You and the Ministry of Industry and Trade are not an argument, you know better :)
            2. gunnerminer
              gunnerminer 14 October 2018 10: 49
              -2
              It is not the construction process that matters, but the result. The SSBNs are being built, but the forces supporting their main activities are not being built promptly, at an affordable price, and within an acceptable time frame. Chronic problems with ammunition for the SSBNs, MAPL, both with the main and PLO.
  28. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 24 July 2018 11: 10
    0
    as for the shipbuilding industry, it does not need to be revived .... it needs to be provided with orders, for example, state leasing for the purchase of new merchant ships, these ships are not so large as to require something supernatural from the plants, there will be orders, then the plants will revive ... if taxes are reduced
    1. The Siberian barber
      The Siberian barber 24 July 2018 13: 23
      0
      Vladimir1155, I’m sorry, you are arguing, as a person with an idea, about the industry, from the media)
      Maybe I'm wrong))
      In Kaliningrad, at SZ Yantar a good welder is worth its weight in gold)))
      The sense of orders, if there is no one to work ..
      The problems are deeper, however ..
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 24 July 2018 16: 28
        +2
        the welder is always worth its weight in gold, if he pays it, he will come, although I am not a bad welder myself, I worked as a welder at Izhora, a very long time ago, nuclear reactors are brewed there. My auto mechanic is not good, but an excellent welder and does not go to the Admiralty shipyards where they give 70-80 tyr per month ... because it is more profitable for him to work with me. Finding a good welder is just money, and respect for the person, not the case.
        1. The Siberian barber
          The Siberian barber 24 July 2018 17: 00
          0
          You see!) They don’t want to pay, adequately ... And besides welders, there are tons of other specialties ...
          Who will build the fleet? Or children from origami? ..
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 24 July 2018 23: 38
            +2
            Pay adequately? Why is this still? It can be easier, the old fashioned way;)

            "The first scientific and production company in the country was formed for the Sevmash defense shipbuilding company in Severodvinsk. This was announced on Tuesday by the Sevmash press service on 3/07/18 TASS.

            "" The creation of scientific and production companies is a good start, and we are pleased that one of these companies will serve at Sevmash. "Young children will have the opportunity to serve in the army on the job, the enterprise will be able to work, and the region will be young people who will live and work in their native land," the regional administration press service quotes the words of the Governor of the Arkhangelsk Region Igor Orlov. "
            1. Vladimir1155
              Vladimir1155 24 July 2018 23: 58
              0
              this is called reservation, I know myself at one time was on the list of reservation
              1. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 25 July 2018 22: 05
                0
                Booking is a deferment of service. But apparently even deferment can not be lured. Therefore, forced labor under the guise of a service.
          2. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 24 July 2018 23: 57
            0
            if I were appointed prime minister instead of Medvedev everything would work
            1. Vladimir1155
              Vladimir1155 26 July 2018 08: 54
              0
              reservation is not a deferment from military service in the Armed Forces, reservation for reserve officers is given to especially valuable employees not subject to appeal in case of war
  29. Oleg Tolstoy
    Oleg Tolstoy 24 July 2018 15: 52
    0
    Quote: Setrac
    Quote: Oleg Tolstoy
    And you again gathered to defend mother Russia, retreating to Chita and Volgograd

    And how could the fleet stop the Wehrmacht? By your logic, you must abandon the fleet in favor of the ground forces.


    You about the defense of the Crimea in 1941 did not know at all? What forces and means evacuated the remaining forces locked behind a dig? And about the Battle of the Kuban in 1943 and about the Crimean operation in 1944? Support from the Sea would have been nice there .. Instead, instead of mass naval landings from the Caucasus, they built gati through Sivash, putting three thousand in this swamp, only sappers ... Conduct active military operations on the coast. impossible without support from the sea! I’m not talking about the war of convoys ... The Germans in 1941 threw their forces near the Leningrad Sea, having resistance only from submarines and small aircraft of the Baltic Fleet ... Well, how can you explain. The difference between the defense of the entrance of the house and the defense of one apartment of this house, you understand? The apartment, without access to at least the neighboring apartment. not to hold, as well as not to keep the porch without access to the roof ;-)
  30. Oleg Tolstoy
    Oleg Tolstoy 24 July 2018 16: 05
    +2
    Quote: vladimir1155
    imperialism is very expensive, you brought the USSR to Spain (you received the Spanish fascist legion in the Novgorod region, and it was only thanks to the wisdom and peace of General Franco mv that they didn’t get help from Hitler in the size of the Spanish army), but nothing came from Angola and Afghanistan and other "friends" except zinc coffins and the poverty of their own people. To expand the borders of the Russian Federation, the ocean fleet is not needed, maybe you take off so high that the govs die in the Angola, and we fly our boys to death, we shall fly. “May there always be sunshine, may there always be me”, only defending one’s country justifies war (Constitution of the Russian Federation)


    Shaw you speak! Spanish Legion, yes it was. I had to admit with the Finns. (I have trophy skis of the Finnish shooter, still in the country, from its first owner, a Red Army scout!) And the captured Romanians, Hungarians, and other Norwegians who fed lice near Leningrad we had when so deadly to offend ?! lol

    And what is the "limited contingent" of Russian military specialists and a couple of PMCs in Syria doing today? Maybe the grants of rich Uncle Assad are sawing, or am I confused something and the Russian border now passes near Tel Aviv? laughing Defense? Am I talking about something else? It’s just that you can protect only your wallet, but you can protect all the passengers of the bus with their hands clasped by a pickpocket at the entrance until he has time to do some troubles. Am I clearly explaining?
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 24 July 2018 16: 36
      +1
      everything is clear, it’s only while in the bus that it’s better not to look for all the pockets located in another country, this is stupid, it’s better to lock your bus with a key and they won’t enter ... I understand it clearly? about Syria, there Russia fulfills the task for Israel to eliminate the Arab world and create a great Israel. Russia got the Syrian sector, the Americans Iraq, the Iranians Saudi Arabia, Qatar and more, Russia promised Israel to not interfere with Assad and other groups in Syria while Israel (by the hands of the USA and NATO) will crush Jordan and move to the East (Persian Gulf of oil) and to the West (to the Suez Canal). Isil clears territory for Israel. When the need for Russia disappears, they will ask her to leave, and if they leave, they will have to protect and even feed the Syrians paying Khmeimim and Tartus.
  31. Sergej1972
    Sergej1972 24 July 2018 19: 25
    +1
    And not one commentator has indicated that the Ministry of Industry has not existed for a long time.)
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      24 July 2018 20: 35
      +2
      Quote: Sergej1972
      And not one commentator has indicated that the Ministry of Industry has not existed for a long time.

      Yes, this is an epic blooper :)))
      Ministry of Industry and Trade, of course
    2. gunnerminer
      gunnerminer 14 October 2018 10: 46
      -2
      This does not radically affect the overall picture.
  32. Xscorpion
    Xscorpion 25 July 2018 00: 44
    +2
    The analysis is normal. But Andrey, it’s enough to tie the oil price to the budget of the Moscow Region. The oil price directly affects 10 percent of the total budget of the Russian Federation, and indirectly, the calculation of oil products and taxes by another 25 approximately. The oil price is a one-time value for the year. the year may be different, and they’re not particularly attached to this .. Well, on the general budget of the Russian Federation, of course, there are several plans for different oil prices, because oil still makes up a decent share in the budget. But if the oil price is at least 200 bucks, at least 40, this MO will not affect the budget. If finite If there is a deficit, then the military will index the salaries at a maximum. Most of the excess profits are either postponed for a rainy day next year, if the price suddenly drops, or go to global projects under construction. In the near future it will be a bridge to Sakhalin. it can be transferred to the Ministry of Defense, but only to that category of expenses that is classified. And it is unlikely that it will be a fleet. Basically, this falls into research work. Well, maybe something will be transferred to Husky, Leader, Poseidon, etc. .
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      25 July 2018 01: 49
      +1
      Quote: Xscorpion
      But Andrey, stop tying the price of oil to the budget of the Moscow Region

      Eugene, I bind her to, and the Ministry of Industry and Trade, which gave birth to "Strategy". But I promise you, as soon as I become its head, I will immediately stop! laughing
    2. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 25 July 2018 10: 08
      0
      in the sense of the icebreaker Leader? Neftegaz gives 50 percent of the budget of the Russian Federation, but the growth of ukey really changes the budget of the Moscow region by several percent, and not at times
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  36. kig
    kig 1 October 2018 14: 13
    0
    our civilian shipbuilding industry is in crisis - Even in the USSR there was really no civilian shipbuilding, almost everything that was needed, we received from friends in the camp. And now even more so. So, in addition to the hull of the vessel, there is also its filling ... in general, China and Korea can rub their hands, waiting for orders. If they will ...
    1. gunnerminer
      gunnerminer 14 October 2018 10: 45
      -2
      They also received from Finland. Oean tugs, for example. The Finns helped, the Greeks with average repair. Because the terms of average repairs at Soviet plants did not fit into any framework.
  37. gunnerminer
    gunnerminer 14 October 2018 10: 43
    -2
    The strategy is encouraging. If you do not stumble over low productivity, backward equipment, a wild shortage of skilled workers, craftsmen, engineers, and subject to unexpected surprises in the form of sharp cuts in funding.