Vikings at home (part of 2)

74
Married to wife
Maid for money
Brave, I de equal,
I will thank Hrafnu
I was in the house in a storm of abusive
I Was Adalrad barrier.
Why the warrior
Words barely knit.
(Gunnlaugr Ormstunga. Skaldic poetry. Translation SV Petrova)


In 921-922, the Arab traveler Ahmad ibn Fadlan as secretary of the embassy of the Abbasid Caliph al-Muqtadir visited Volga Bulgaria and wrote a report in the form of travel notes, which described in detail the life and political relations of Oghuz, Bashkir, Bulgar, Rus and Khazars. "I have seen the Rus - he wrote - when they arrived on their trading affairs and at Atilim River. I have not seen [people] with more perfect bodies than they. They are palm-like, fair-haired, red-faced, white in body. ” That is, if the Ruses are Scandinavians, and scientists have no particular doubts about this today, then this means those Vikings who came here to trade. And so Ibn Fadlan met with them.



Vikings at home (part of 2)

Here they are, so popular among the women of Scandinavia, "fibula-turtles". (National Museum, Copenhagen)

However, perhaps more important knowledge about the physical appearance of the Vikings give us today the archaeological finds of skeletons of that time. So far, around 500 Viking skeletons have been found in Denmark. Archaeological excavations on the territory of Scandinavia confirm that the men of the Viking era really were beautiful and well-groomed - at least in their best years. Skeletons found during excavations have been preserved to this day, suggesting that the average height of their owners was 5 feet 7,75 in. And the leaders could be no lower than 6 feet, or even higher. The find of the wagon found in the Osieberg grave, decorated with three-dimensional images of male heads made so carefully that literally every detail is very illustrative: the hair on them is combed, the beards are neatly trimmed, the mustaches, the ends of which were braided into braids, are bent upwards. However, the faces of men and women in the Viking Age were more similar than today. The faces of women were more, so to speak, masculine than women today, with more prominent eyebrows. On the other hand, male Vikings were more feminine-looking than men today, with less prominent jaws and brow brows. We can also assume that all of them, both men and women, should have been more muscular than we are today, due to the hard physical work that they did.


Combs are often found in the Viking Age graves. And with them, and tweezers, and all sorts of other cosmetic devices. (National Museum, Copenhagen)

Genetic studies have shown that the Vikings in Western Scandinavia and, consequently, in Denmark, were mostly redheads. However, in Northern Scandinavia, in the Stockholm region, blond hair dominated.


And this, you know what? Cleaner for the ears! (National Museum, Copenhagen)

In any case, redheads or blondes, but the Vikings very much cared for their hair, which is proved by crests made of wood or bone, which are one of the most common types of finds of the Viking era. The Vikings often kept such ridges in caskets, since, apparently, they were objects of great importance to them. The archaeological finds of the Viking beauty objects show that over time they have not changed. In addition to the combs, it is a spoon for cleaning the ears and tweezers. Interestingly, the signs of wear on the teeth indicate that toothpicks were used most actively.

Makeup should also be added to the list of beauty items. For example, a merchant from Moorish Cordoba Ibrahim al-Tarushi, who visited the Vikings trading city of Hedeby, admits that although he found many things strange and did not like it, it must be admitted that its inhabitants are beautiful and skillfully use cosmetics. “They use a special eye paint,” he notes. - From that their beauty does not fade; on the contrary, it is very good for both men and women. ” For example, the English chronicler of the XII century, John Wallingford, already after the end of the Viking era, wrote that in his earlier sources, he had received many very positive reviews about Scandinavian men. Eyewitnesses reported that the latter regularly visited the bath on Saturdays, always combed their hair, dressed beautifully and, therefore, enjoyed enviable success with the ladies.


Gold plated buckles often decorated Viking clothing. (National Museum, Copenhagen)

The same Ibn Fadlan describes the Rus customs related to personal hygiene as very strange and calls them "dirty." But let's not forget that he came to them from a culture in which personal hygiene had a high priority. As a Muslim, he was accustomed to bathe five times a day before praying. That is why they seemed “dirty” to him, but even if the Vikings he met didn’t meet the Muslim standards of cleanliness, they were not dirty or unhygienic from the point of view of the Northern Europeans. Just in their opinion, men from Scandinavia, by the standards of that time, were, on the contrary, quite well-groomed.


Women's hair is also surprisingly well preserved in burials. They were usually long and loose or braided.


We can see it on small silver and bronze female figures. (National Museum, Copenhagen)

The skeletons show that arthritis of the back, arms and knees was a common disease Viking farmers. Many Vikings also suffered from dental problems. Over a quarter of the population had holes in their teeth. Some skulls had only a few teeth at the time of death. Of course, there were some other diseases that also shortened the life expectancy of the Vikings, but the bones, of course, do not show it. First of all, it was pneumonia and inflammation of the wounds for a long time causes the death until the invention of penicillin. There are many written sources from the European Middle Ages, which describe which plants were used to treat certain diseases at that time. However, we can only guess what kind of knowledge the Vikings had about the healing properties of plants and how, using them, the Scandinavian healers achieved a healing effect.


Silver figure of the Viking Age. Perhaps depicts the goddess Freya. (National Museum, Copenhagen)

Whatever it was, but life at that time was difficult. Including in the Viking society. Infant mortality was very high, and the Vikings rarely reached the 35-40 age. Only a few people lived until 50 years. Like today, women often lived a little longer than men.


These are the hairpins-buckles over time have become more fashionable than the "fibula-turtles." (Archaeological Museum, Dublin)

On rune stones and in various written sources, we can read about the bloody dramas that took place in the Viking society, and about the parents who mourned their lost sons. That is, violence was an important cause of death for these people. And, of course, a lot of skeletons were found, which show horrible traces of wounds, each of which was certainly fatal.

Less lucky archaeologists with Viking clothing. Findings of clothes of the Viking Age are very rare. They often consist of small pieces of material that have been preserved for the most part by chance. But our knowledge of the clothing of the Scandinavians is complemented by written sources, as well as images of clothing on small figures and tapestries.

Like today's men and women, the Vikings were dressed according to gender, age, and economic status. Men prefer to wear trousers and tunics, while women wore dresses and wore underwear. Viking Plain clothes were made of local materials, such as wool and linen woven by hands of women. But there were exceptions - that is, clothes made from fabrics brought by merchants or obtained in military campaigns.


Gotland runestone G 268 depicting a man in wide pants. (Historical Museum, Stockholm)

Although homespun matter was used in clothing, it does not mean that it was not stained. And the most popular were bright blue and red colors. Colored yarn in the Viking Age could be produced by boiling matter along with various plants containing dyes. For example, in the clothes of male Vikings, colors such as yellow, red, purple and blue were used. Blue was found only in the burials of rich people, as it was obtained from imported indigo dye, which was very expensive. About 40% of Viking fabric finds were identified as made from flax. Therefore, flax had to become an important plant for the production of Viking clothing. Studies show that to obtain a sufficient amount of material for the manufacture of a tunic requires more than 20 kg of flax. In addition, from the time of sowing flax and until the tunic was sewn, at least 400 hours of labor were required. So the production of clothing in Scandinavia in those years was a very, very laborious business. But in Denmark, however, several places were found in which flax was produced almost on an industrial scale. Thus, flax was supposed to occupy one of the first places in the trading list of goods offered by the Vikings.


The hoard from Hornelund contains two brooches for clothing and a gold ring. These two brooches are the best products of the Viking Age in Denmark. The relief of the brooches was made a punch through the matrix. They are decorated with wire filigree and granulation. Their decoration with foliage and leaves of grapes has its origin in Christian art. They were clearly made by a Danish jeweler in the last half of the tenth century.

Finds from graves of wealthy people show that belonging to a particular class of clothes should always be imported. The higher classes thus demonstrated their wealth, decorating it with silk and gold threads, and taking Byzantium as a model. In addition, the Vikings complemented their clothes with jewelry and fur of various animals.

Fashion was simple. Women usually wore a dress on the straps with underwear (shirt) and a skirt under it. Such a dress was tight-fitting, and it was sewn of coarse material, and wedge-shaped inserts were used to give it shape. Cover it resembled a sundress. At each shoulder strap stabs hairpin-shaped brooch tortoiseshell. It was customary to connect both brooches with a chain of beads.


Such depicted a female Viking English artist Angus MacBride.

Women of this period also wore a cape on their shoulders, which was fastened with a small round or "trilobite brooch." Cloak and dress could be decorated with woven borders and stripes of fur.

A woman’s obligatory garment was a belt with small leather wallets for storing small items such as sewing needles and flint.

The clothes worn by children reflected their parents, both in type and in subtlety. Young girls wore sundresses, while boys wore tunics and pants like adult men.

An Arab diplomat Ibn-Fadlan wrote that he saw during his travels Viking women wearing green glass necklaces. By the way, bulging brooches were found in different parts of Europe, where the Vikings settled, including England, Ireland, Russia and Iceland. This indicates that Viking women may also have taken part in the expeditions of their husbands.


Viking women. Fig. Angus MacBoyaid. The trilobite brooch is clearly visible on the woman’s chest in the center.

The most common clothing of men was a tunic. resembled a long shirt without buttons, which could go down to the knees. On the shoulders of the men wore raincoats, the ends of which were fastened with a beautiful brooch-hairpin. The cloak was assembled on the arm opposite that in which he held a sword or an ax. Thus, one could immediately see whether the Viking was right-handed or left-handed.


The Vikings did not wear earrings. But they brought them from their travels. So on the territory of Scandinavia they are found. (National Museum, Copenhagen)

We don't know much about the shape of the pants that the Vikings wore. There is an image from which it can be judged that they were wide to the knee and narrow to the knee and, moreover, wrapped in leather straps. As a shoe men wore leather shoes, reminiscent of Native American moccasins or fairly high boots. Caps were made of a material or leather.


Silver hoard Tersleva in Zealand contains silver 6,6 kg, including 1751 coins. 1708 of the coins of Arab origin. The latest coin dated 944 year, that is, this treasure was buried in the second half of the tenth century. There are many rings for the neck and hands, there are chains with toiletries and jewelry. There is a dish with four cups of Northern Europe and chased big bowl, which is likely from Persia. (National Museum, Copenhagen)


In this photo, the same treasure in the museum. In the distance, to the far right, at the top are golden “fibula-turtles” (National Museum, Copenhagen)

Since there were no pockets in their clothes, the men on their belts were wearing straps or rope. On them a man could wear a purse or a knife. A wallet could contain not only money - most often Arab dirhams, but various necessary little things: a comb, tweezers, a nail file, a toothpick, playing bones.

To be continued ...
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  1. Cat
    +8
    25 July 2018 05: 30
    Good morning Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    The same ibn Fadlan describes the customs of the Russians associated with personal hygiene, as very strange and calls them "dirty." However, let's not forget that he came to them from a culture in which personal hygiene was a high priority.

    And if you compare your politically correct conclusion with a direct quote from Ibn Fadlan?
    "The elder washes his hands and face, spits in the bowl and passes it to the next and so on until the latter is washing his face and hands!"

    Somehow it does not fit with the people who live by the sea or in forests and mountains where there are many rivers and lakes. Well purely the custom of the Bedouins!
    So Ibn Fadlan is still that storyteller! Although we have a version of the retelling of Ykut (Yakut) that lived a century and a half later?
    So be careful with the cat, he will not climb on the glopus but not an owl however!
    Thank you for the article!
    1. +3
      25 July 2018 06: 54
      Good morning! I just don’t really trust such scriptures and translations. But they are. Considered a source. And my right to state them in a form that, in my opinion, is most relevant to the content. and the purposes of the material.
      1. +6
        25 July 2018 07: 55
        This is how scientific treatises on history are written.
        The author referred to * an ancient manuscript * describing * Rus * and here about the fact that modern scholars have no doubt what is written about the Vikings.
        It is not surprising that even today RUSSIAN is denied both culture and the right to existence itself.
        It is known where the nations now claiming antiquity and culture came from in Europe. Their way of conquering by no means empty lands is known. The methods of assimilation of the local population are also known. In the twentieth century, Poles, Chinese and Jews in the lands that they managed to capture carried out similar things.
        RUSSIANS and Slavs are denied both culture and the ability to create at least something.
        The ancestors of the Hellenes - Pelasgians came to the Balkans from the Don and brought with them writing and culture. The Caucasians derive only themselves heirs of the Hellenic culture, they are only confused by the * unknown * origin of the Pelasgian-Hellenes.
        Similar is observed in China with their legends about * northern gods *.
        And legends about * gods * from the North are popular in India.
        1. jjj
          +1
          25 July 2018 08: 39
          Quote: Vasily50
          RUSSIAN and Slavs

          I share this point of view that Russians and Slavs are different peoples in the beginning
          1. +2
            25 July 2018 11: 53
            Quote: jjj
            I share this point of view that Russians and Slavs are different peoples in the beginning

            Then answer the question: why is Russian the language of the Slavic group and the language of the Vikings Germanic? If you are hinting of course that the Rus are Vikings.
            1. jjj
              +1
              25 July 2018 21: 58
              In the annals four indigenous peoples of the districts around Staraya Ladoga are mentioned: Russians, Slavs, Scandinavians and Jews. We, I agree with some historians, are Varangians. Although the professor at Petrozavodsk University Vyacheslav Orfinsky once called me a Viking with a red beard
              1. +1
                28 July 2018 14: 38
                I apologize, but how long have Jews become the indigenous people of Ladoga ....? And what do you have to do with the Vikings ...? I understand this flatters you, but let's be honest. And a big request will not be proud of this your name as a person widely known in narrow circles ....
        2. 0
          25 July 2018 11: 09
          Quote: Vasily50
          This is how scientific treatises on history are written.
          The author referred to * an ancient manuscript * describing * Rus * and here about the fact that modern scholars have no doubt what is written about the Vikings.

          Do not doubt because our the ancestors were not so dirty! wink
          ibn Fadlan writes:
          Quote: Kotischa
          "The elder washes his hands and face, spits in the bowl and passes it to the next and so on until the latter is washing his face and hands!"

          And so to this day wash, for example, the British - and never the Slavs did not wash: they always watered water in handfuls and then washed; wealthy people handled the hosts and guests in the hands of a maid.
        3. +5
          25 July 2018 11: 20
          Quote: Vasily50
          It is not surprising that even today RUSSIAN is denied both culture and the right to existence itself.

          Who is denying this? Names, nicknames, passwords, appearance - with quotes and links to the studio, please. smile Hitler did not offer - have already figured out with him. wink
          No, seriously, who TODAY is trying to deny us "in culture and the right to existence itself" - I find it interesting. Is it possible that somewhere a liberal fundamentalist with a skewed brain like Shenderovich or Bilzho with Albats can be so wickedly shit, but I haven’t paid attention to them for a long time, which I wish for you.
          Most scientists now really agree that Russia is Scandinavians. Remember how the Slavs called the peoples who inhabited the Baltic States: Chud, Lie, Sum, Em, Vod, all ... "Russia" fits very well in this row. smile
          Russian culture was originally polyethnic - Slavic-Finno-Scandinavian and this is normal. And the first Russian state was already multinational. Maybe that's why, as a result, the Russians managed to create and preserve such a huge power — the ability to unite and unite, not subjugate and conquer, passed from ancient ancestors through forty generations to our time.
        4. 0
          26 September 2018 12: 39
          Apollo was also a god from the North. Perhaps the remnants of the Hyperboreans?
      2. 0
        25 July 2018 11: 46
        Quote: kalibr
        ... I just don’t really trust such writings and translations ..

        Hello. Do you trust the Soviet textbook on the history of the seventh grade?
        There is also an excerpt from Ahmad ibn Fadlan: “I saw the Rus,” he wrote, “when they arrived on their trading affairs and settled down near the Atyl River. I have not seen [people] with more perfect bodies than them. They are like palm trees, blond, red face, white body ”.
        This is exactly said about the inhabitants of Kievan Rus!
        Okay, with this trust - disbelief, think for yourself, Ibn Fadlan wrote a lot about Russia in his notes (not to be confused with any Vikings by way of exception) and called the inhabitants Russians!
        Then tell me what he called them? Or do you think he had no idea about the existence of Kievan Rus?
        1. +3
          25 July 2018 14: 50
          Quote: Proxima
          Or do you think he had no idea about the existence of Kievan Rus?

          In those days, no one had a clue about Kievan Rus, not even its population. She simply did not exist. The concepts of "land of Russia", "peoples of Russia" in the sense of "belonging to Russia" were used, and if specificity was needed, the names of the tribes were used, and later the names of the tribal centers - cities such as Rostov, Novgorod, Smolensk, Kiev, etc. And "Russia" for any person was the name of a particular tribe, similarly to such as Slovenia, Vyatichi or Chud, em, all.
    2. +4
      25 July 2018 10: 58
      Quote: Kotischa
      And if you compare your politically correct conclusion with a direct quote from Ibn Fadlan?
      "The elder washes his hands and face, spits in the bowl and passes it to the next and so on until the latter is washing his face and hands!"

      Many researchers consider this quote to be evidence. not Slavic, and the German / Scandinavian origin of these "Rus" - precisely because. that the Slavs washed themselves in flowing water (if water is poured into a container - it is poured from one another into the hands of one another; wealthy people used to pour water on the hands of the owners and guests of the servant). The British, as you know, now plug a sink for washing and pour water with the addition of liquid soap - their tourists complex because there are no plugs for sinks in Russia! laughing And this is clearly ancient tradition. and the statement that this is being done because of water saving is completely gonevo: I specially checked it on a water meter - a couple of liters is enough to wash myself under a stream of water - and it will take 10 liters to fill the sink!
    3. 0
      26 July 2018 11: 13
      Quote: Kotischa
      "The elder washes his hands and face, spits in the bowl and passes it to the next and so on until the latter is washing his face and hands!"
      Somehow it does not fit with the people who live by the sea or in forests and mountains where there are many rivers and lakes. Well purely the custom of the Bedouins

      Bedouins here are not quite suitable. It looks more like US relations with Europe, where the Baltic acts as the last representative for “bathing”, or the decision-making system of the United Russia party - the eldest spat, everyone spits amicably along the vertical line from the United Russia majority of the Duma to the last United Russia deputy in the district municipality and all together they together spit on the people, forgetting that once the people also spat in the power that was washed away and the country had been building up for 70 years becoming the second superpower.
  2. +2
    25 July 2018 06: 21
    Thank you for the article! I have not read the first part, my access to it is blocked. I would like to know, is everyone like this or am I alone out of favor?
    1. +4
      25 July 2018 06: 50
      I'm not blocked, but ... it is not laid out! That is, it is still stored in the SITE ARCHIVE. This is most likely a mistake. But she’s definitely not on her profile, but she opens and says that 26 people watched her, But there’s NOT A SINGLE COMMENT, which is INCREDIBLE. So they looked in the ARCHIVE. Moderators or whoever is there - AU !!!! Please insert the first part as well!
      1. +4
        25 July 2018 07: 04
        She gave all her best after Edinburgh, sagged for about 40 minutes and sank into oblivion; I, with the status of "member", cannot open it. In any case, this is a "cant" of the site administration, let them explain.
    2. +2
      25 July 2018 11: 09
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      I would like to know, is everyone like this or am I alone out of favor?

      it seems everyone
  3. +3
    25 July 2018 06: 26
    "To remember not an hour, not a year old -
    I will give you, dear friend, a scallop "(c).

    Interesting and important household items.
  4. +3
    25 July 2018 07: 16
    severe Vikings, tinting their eyes and using tweezers - mdya, it turns out "glamorous lumberjacks" an ancient trend
  5. +4
    25 July 2018 08: 03
    Quote: Vasily50
    RUSSIANS and Slavs are denied both culture and the ability to create at least something.

    Who is denying us this? Name the author, the book, the publisher? At least I can name the 5 books of the British publishing house Osprey, my 4 co-authored with Professor D. Nicole and one of his, where ... everything is painted as it is. One is translated into Russian and the authenticity of the translation is easy to verify. No need to repeat the writings of brainless magazines!
  6. +2
    25 July 2018 08: 43
    Very interesting details reconstructing the history of the Viking life.
    Thanks to the author for the cycle!
    I am waiting for the continuation
  7. +6
    25 July 2018 08: 50
    That is, if the Russians are Scandinavians, and scientists have no particular doubts about this today, then it means the Vikings who sailed here to trade

    Some such peremptory statements are surprising, since in fact no one really knows who the Russ are and there are a bunch of versions on this subject. And one is no worse than the other. Offhand, I can throw the existing options:
    1. Rus are rugs.
    2. Rus - it is the Slavs - encouraged,
    3. Russes are Scandinavians.
    4. The Russians belonged to certain Caucasian peoples.
    5. Rus is a kind of trade and military international corporation.
    6. Russes are varins who lived near the Jutland Peninsula.
    All of these versions are interesting, worthy of study, but none of them can be proved. And they will forever remain theories.
    Of course, maybe the Russians and the Scandinavians, but all this is written with a pitchfork on the water and this topic is very complicated. So I think such direct statements are incorrect.
    1. +1
      25 July 2018 09: 48
      Arabs just clearly separated the Russians from the Slavs, the Caucasian version is fantastic, and the rest of your options can be considered Scandinavian
      1. +2
        25 July 2018 10: 25
        Quote: Cartalon
        Arabs just clearly separated the Russians from the Slavs

        It is documented that the Rus themselves clearly separated themselves from the Slavs, which, however, cannot unequivocally testify that they were not.
        The same Persian authors happened to mix the former with the latter:
        "As for the merchants of the Rus, and they are the kind of Slavs"
        Personally, it seems to me that the Rus were either very Slavic, perhaps a Germanic tribe, or a Slavic, but very different in lifestyle, probably due to increased militancy.
        the Caucasian version is fantastic

        Maybe. But a certain Russia has been localized since ancient times within the framework of the Taman Peninsula. So the presence of any Circassians or Yasses is not excluded.
        Quote: Cartalon
        your options can be considered Scandinavian

        I do not agree. When talking about the Scandinavian version, they usually mean Swedes, Norwegians and Danes.
        Rugi is an incomprehensible people, most likely German (and maybe Celtic). No, it is possible that he once left Scandinavia in ancient times, but in this context it can hardly be attributed to the Scandinavian ones.
        Encouraged, varins - the Baltic Slavs. Although the varins are again incomprehensible. Here the analogy - “varins” - “Varangians” is interesting.
        Personally, it seems to me that a mixture of versions 2 and 5 is closer to the truth, but it’s hard to definitely say something here.
    2. 0
      25 July 2018 17: 15
      See the text "Tales of Bygone Years":
      In summer 6370. And she drove the Varangians overseas, and did not give them tribute, and more often themselves in their own free will. And there wasn’t truth in them, and ancestral tribe to the clan, and bygone agony in them, and fight on their own. And rkosha: “Let us look for ourselves as a prince, we would also be hungry and row by row, by right.” Idosh across the sea to the Varangian, to Russia. Sice bo sound you are Varangians Russia like all friends are called sveta, friends are urmani, angljan, ying and gotha, taco and si.
      1. +2
        25 July 2018 17: 52
        Familiar with this text. Three facts follow from it:
        1 / Some kind of Russia came from overseas. Because of the sea - the concept is very broad.
        2 / Russia-this is not the Swedes, nor the Norwegians and not other peoples listed. That is, actually from the Scandinavians only dans are possible.
        3 / If you interpret the text in a certain way, then we can conclude that the Varangian is a collective concept. Although it can be read in another way.
        It was written almost three centuries after the events described and since then many terms and events could be understood quite differently.
        As a result, what do we have? Yes, almost nothing, a continuous fog.
        1. +2
          25 July 2018 18: 23
          Quote: Flavius
          2 / Russia - this is not the Swedes,

          Russia is not svei. But who told you that the concept of "svei" is identical to the modern concept of "Swedes". It is possible that not only the Swells lived on the territory of modern Sweden. As well as on the territory of Finland there lived sum, em, lobe, etc. And in Sweden, even Roslagen has such an area and it is located on the coast of the Gulf of Bothnia ...
          1. Cat
            +3
            25 July 2018 19: 22
            Michael, good evening! I quote you -
            And in Sweden even such an area is Roslagen and it is located on the coast of the Gulf of Bothnia ...

            And according to research by the Swedish scientists themselves, in the described time intervals was under water! You can of course develop a theme about Uncle Chernomor or start proving the phonetical similarity of Rus and mermaids! The only trouble is that the mermaids of the ancient Slavs lived on trees and had wings. hi
          2. +1
            25 July 2018 20: 21
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            who told you that the concept of "svej" is identical to the modern concept of "swedes"

            In the written documents of Roman, Byzantine, German, Scandinavian and Slavic origin (chronicles, sagas, chronicles) of the first millennium AD, the Scandinavian tribes are directly named - Goths, Angles, Saxons, Dans, Norwegians, Sveis.

            Where in these documents can you read about such a Scandinavian tribe as the Rus?
          3. +2
            25 July 2018 20: 25
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            But who told you that the concept of "svej" is identical to the modern concept of "Swedes"

            Well, I was told about this by Russian sources, who mean by Swedes it is the Swedes, but not the sum:
            I came Svei the greatness, and Murman, and Sum, and many ships in the ships are strong; Svei eat the prince and eat his piskups; and stasha in the Neva, the mouth of Izhera, even though the Ladoga was back, just the river and Novgorod and the entire Novgorod region


            Tell me, your father, Gustav, whose son, and how your grandfather was called, and where he sat in the state, and with whom the sovereigns were in a brotherhood, and whom you are a kind of state? ... And what do you write for a few hundred years in Svee kings have been

            Maybe, of course, Swedes are not Swedes, but why complicate things that seem simple?
            I then have a counter question - why did you get that urmani - Is it the Norwegians, and not the collective name of the Normans in general, which actually includes the Swedes and Norwegians and are given?
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            And in Sweden even such an area is Roslagen and it is located on the coast of the Gulf of Bothnia.

            You have already been told about Roslagen below that it appeared much later. In general, toponyms with the inclusion of "Ros", "Rus" exist throughout Europe up to Ireland. So why are you so drawn to Sweden?

            Why not take a closer look, for example, on the island of Rügen, inhabited by an extremely warlike Slavic tribe. And overseas it is located, as it should be, and here you have the root "Rug", and the West Europeans constantly called Russia rugs. Here you and Rorik - such as their totem falcon - this is the name of our founder of the dynasty. And you don’t need to search for and pull some Hroeriks in Scandinavia and pull the owl on the globe.
            And the coat of arms of the Rurikovich seems to be a falcon. And with the eastern sources that write about the island of Rus, you can draw analogies.
            1. Cat
              +1
              25 July 2018 21: 40
              And the coat of arms of the Rurikovich seems to be a falcon. And with the eastern sources that write about the island of Rus, you can draw analogies.

              In order.
              1. Coat of arms of the Rurikovich, reenactment of the flag of the defeated Khazaria. The first borrowings belong to the children of Yaroslav. Cherry (red) cloth with the image of a "two-pronged". Trident go falling falcon in historical sources recorded a century later.
              2. Islands Rusov. Ruyan, Bayan, etc. Arabchik sources did not record the place where this promised place was located. So you can hang labels on all the islands of the Baltic Sea, and if you give a riot of imagination, then the Black Sea will not lag behind. For example, Yakut Rusov places in Taman and speaks of seven rivers and seven cities? The Byzantine chroniclers mention, not a certain tribe of Dormont wanderers. Which lived on the Black Sea. In turn, called the Arab merchants - Russian.
              Another option is possible somewhere on the Baltic Sea lies the island of Russ, but we do not know. Or vice versa, this is far from an island.
              3. Analogies must be feared, a very slippery topic.
              Sincerely, Kitty!
              1. +2
                25 July 2018 21: 54
                Quote: Kotischa
                Coat of arms of the Rurikovich, reenactment of the flag of the defeated Khazaria

                Absolutely not provable and unconfirmed statement. With the same right, I can consider him a diving falcon. There are no arguments for or against.
                Quote: Kotischa
                Islands Rusov. Ruyan, Bayan

                I do not claim that Rügen is the birthplace of the Rus. It just seems to me that this version is more logical than Sweden or some kind of Taman.
            2. 0
              26 July 2018 10: 50
              Quote: Kotischa
              according to the research of the Swedish scientists themselves, in the described time intervals was under water!

              Quote: Operator
              Where in these documents can you read about such a Scandinavian tribe as the Rus?

              Quote: Flavius
              Maybe, of course, Swedes are not Swedes, but why complicate things that seem simple?

              Well, colleagues, right, attacked the poor me. smile
              I know that Roslagen was under water and that this is a relatively later name smile Just so fomenkovski sounds beautiful: Roslagen - Russian camp ... smile
              Seriously, most of this territory at the time of Rurik, of course, was under water, but the area around Lake Malaren, which was then the bay, was also part of ancient Ruden, which later became Roslagen. So finally I would not put an end to this version.
              The operator will answer what I answered before - I will remind the embassy of the Russians to the Byzantine emperor 838, which he forwarded to King Louis the Pious. smile
              Flavius, of course it is, of course, the Swedes, or rather those who later became Swedes. But just as the Finns were formed from the merger of the tribes of sum, em, bluff and who else is there, so the modern Swedes could be formed as a result of the merger of svei, Rus and anyone else ... Where are our Krivichi, Vyatichi and Radimichi? If it were not for The Tale of Bygone Years, no one would have known them, but the Scandinavians have no such tale.
              And in general, let it be better that Roric of Jutland would be the founder of our ruling dynasty - active, active, militant and intelligent. Such an ancestor can be quite proud. How is it for patriots worse than an unknown Slavic leader from some forgotten, long-destroyed West Slavic tribe? In fact, the same thing that recognizing a Pole or a Czech as their ruler is the same Western Slavs. With the Pole and the Czech, it is even more desirable - at least they managed to defend themselves in history as a people, and the Baltic Slavs are typical historical losers, they could not even survive as a people. smile
              Again, seriously, the argument is eternal. Personally, I think that the most reasonable from the point of view of historical science, without any policy, is the version that Rurik is a Swede. I don’t want to present a bunch of people who have long been presented by smarter evidence and listen to a bunch of people who have been expressed long ago by people, again, smarter than me. smile
              Regarding the coat of arms - the trident in the form of a falcon - the respected Kotisch is absolutely right. I will only add that according to some data, the third, middle, tooth appeared in his time of Vladimir Svyatoslavich and, if my memory serves me, it meant belonging to the side branch of the dynasty, in fact, it was a bastard, since Vladimir was a bastard. Studies on this subject are available.
              1. +1
                26 July 2018 11: 11
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Personally, I believe that the most reasonable version from the point of view of historical science, without any policy, is that Rurik is a Swede.

                In fact, from the point of view of historical science, Rorik Jutland is exactly the Dane smile
                Actually, the whole Norman theory is an attempt to shove the unbearable.
                Well, from the point of common sense - who would ever think of going to foreign, alien, foreign-speaking Germans to ask them for a ruler? All Slavic elders need to drink this for a year to come up with this. And when they sobered up, a great war would have begun, echoes of which would have been heard so far.
                There were analogues when they tried to call Vladislav the Polish to the kingdom in the Time of Troubles. He was at least a Slav, but still it didn’t work out.
                In England they called Hengest and Hors. So it all degenerated into a large-scale slaughter that everyone knows about.
                So the Norman version I think is not serious. And the reasons for its appearance are quite understandable ..
                1. 0
                  26 July 2018 12: 27
                  Quote: Flavius
                  Well, from the point of common sense - who would think of going to foreign Germans, foreigners, foreign-speaking Germans, to ask their ruler?

                  Then in the eastern Baltic and Ladoga region a unique society was formed - a mixture of languages ​​and cultures of three peoples - Slavs, Finno-Ugrians and Scandinavians. Archaeologists perfectly confirm this by fixing in the same places at the same time the sedentary presence of all three cultures. They were absolutely not strangers to each other - they lived side by side, traded, fought, got married, made friends, quarreled, and knew very well the features and customs of each other. It was a single society of equal partners with a very high degree of tolerance towards each other, and it was from him that the Russian state grew. This, in many ways, is our uniqueness.
                  And about Rorik - this is me, as a harmless trolling. To me personally, his candidacy for the role of Rurik seems not quite suitable.
                  Quote: Flavius
                  So the Norman version I think is not serious. And the reasons for its appearance are quite understandable ..

                  Conspiracy of historians? Do not tell anyone this plot was not needed. If you do not add politics and ideology to the history, then, in fact, there would be no dispute. Patriots do not give rest to the nationality of Rurik? And you ask yourself: did we even have Slavic princes? Remember the princes who married: Efanada, wife of Rurik (?) - princess Urman, Olga Holy, mother of Svyatoslav - obvious Scandinavian, Malusha, mother of Vladimir - well, there are options, even Jewish origin, Rogneda Rogvoldovna, Vladimir's wife - Scandinavian, Ingigerda (Irina), the wife of Yaroslav the Wise, is a Swede, his son Vsevolod is married to a Greek woman by one marriage, another to a half-woman, Monomakh's wife is Gita, Harald Godwinson's daughter, Yuri Dolgoruky is married to a half-woman, and so on ... Where is the Slavic blood? Even if Rurik is a Slav, nothing remains of his Slavic origin. By the way, genetic studies of the descendants of Rurik show that he was still Scandinavian.
                  1. +1
                    26 July 2018 13: 25
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Then a unique society was formed in the eastern Baltic and Ladoga region - a mixture of languages ​​and cultures of three peoples - Slavs, Finno-Ugric peoples and Scandinavians.

                    I do not think that everything was so good. Rather, you wishful thinking. It is more correct to replace the Scandinavians with balts.
                    In 1995, the anthropologist N.N. Goncharova, with a special study, proved the genetic connections of Novgorod Slovenes with the Balts and Baltic Slavs, she also noted the relatively weak influence of the substrate, Finno-Ugric population on the anthropological appearance of the population of Novgorod land, which in her opinion reflects the characteristic features of the Slavic population.
                    And about equal partners - this is utopia. Equality was not among the Rus and the Slavs. It happens in the next world only. Rus, by the way, traded the Slavs as slaves. Unique Equality laughing
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Conspiracy of historians? Do not tell, no one needed this conspiracy. If we did not mix politics and ideology with history, then, in fact, there would be no dispute.

                    No, everything is simpler and without conspiracy.
                    The Norman version was thrown into the light by the Swedes during the period of Swedish great power. The Russian historical school at that moment simply did not exist. Western European historians did not know the Russian language and did not particularly seek to understand who was there and where it came from to the Moscow bogs. As a result, the Swedish version became the most common and migrated to the domestic soil, as nature does not tolerate emptiness.
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Rurik's nationality haunts patriots?

                    Patriots, not patriots and any honest people need objective evidence, not Roslagen and reasons for pride
                    ... it would be better if the founder of our ruling dynasty would be Rorik Jutlandsky - active, active, belligerent and clever. You can be proud of such an ancestor.

                    If our own wishes are in evidence, then the historical dispute itself can be closed.

                    Once again, I emphasize that it makes no difference to me who Rurik was by nationality, it is very likely that he did not exist at all. I just don’t like the populist wave about the Vikings, when without any reason they are poked right and left.
                    1. +1
                      26 July 2018 14: 34
                      Quote: Flavius
                      I do not think that everything was so good. Rather, you wishful thinking. It is more correct to replace the Scandinavians with balts.

                      The settlements of those, others and third ones are in close proximity, often signs of the presence of all and immediately are within the boundaries of one settlement. Talk about any isolation is not necessary. Rather, do not "replace" the Scandinavians with the Balts, but "include" the Balts in this triumvirate. Although the Balts, as a matter of fact, were prone to self-isolation, unlike the Slavs, Finns and Scandinavians.
                      It should also be understood that it was the Slavs at that time who were at a higher stage of social development (the same Swedes formed the state a hundred years later), therefore they were the backbone of this triune society, and therefore the language and culture in the nascent state were Slavic .
                      Quote: Flavius
                      The Norman version was thrown into the light by the Swedes during the period of the Swedish Great Power.

                      By the Germans. So cursed now (and completely unfair, in my opinion) by the notorious Bayer, Miller and, later, Schlozer. It is interesting, by the way, why, at the risk of their career, they decided to point the finger at the Swedes, which at that moment, after the wars of Peter the Great, was a very risky act.
                      Quote: Flavius
                      If our own wishes are in evidence, then the historical dispute itself can be closed.

                      I say: about Rorik is an easy trolling of "historians" who love to give what they wish for the reality. I myself do not identify Roric and Rurik.
                      Quote: Flavius
                      Patriots, not patriots and any honest people need objective evidence, not Roslagen and reasons for pride

                      I have already written about Roslagen, of course, it was not in the form it is now. But the area around this lake. Mälaren was and was called Ruden.
                      Quote: Flavius
                      I just do not like the populist wave about the Vikings, when without any reason they are thrust right and left.

                      The dispute about the origin of Rurik has been going on for almost three hundred years and the same will last. smile And the Vikings - an interesting topic, romantic. Why not discuss?
                      1. +2
                        26 July 2018 14: 46
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        The Germans.

                        And yet the Swedes -
                        For the first time .. was formulated by the Swedish diplomat Peter Petreus in 1615 to justify the rights of Sweden to the Russian lands captured during the Time of Troubles. The position of Petraeus, which the German historian Evers called empty-handed, became the general line of Swedish historiography of the XNUMXth century: it was then developed by the scientists Videkind, Vereliy, Rudbeck.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        the notorious Bayer, Miller and, later, Schletser

                        These characters only picked her up and brought her onto our soil.
                        It should also be understood that it was the Slavs at that time who were at a higher stage of social development

                        Yes, and that is why, right up to St. Vladimir, their equal partners drove them to export to Byzantium laughing So that there was no shame in front of customers.
                        the same Swedes formed the state a hundred years later

                        Moreover, it is unlikely that these people turned for the prince.
                  2. +2
                    26 July 2018 14: 16
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    By the way, genetic studies of the descendants of Rurik show that he was still a Scandinavian.

                    Why are you constantly trying to cheat smile Sometimes, I have nothing to read from Klyosov, so this learned husband claims the exact opposite. I don’t really believe him or his opponents, but he somehow looks more convincing.
                    1. 0
                      26 July 2018 15: 17
                      Quote: Flavius
                      Why are you constantly trying to cheat

                      Yes, not at all.
                      Here are the research data from "genefond.rf" with reference to Volkov V.G.

                      Volkov’s article itself is here:
                      https://oko-planet.su/science/sciencediscussions/
                      148409-proishozhdenie-ryurika-i-gedimina-v-svete-
                      poslednih-geneticheskih-issledovaniy.html
                      Most descendants have N1c1d. The Chernigov branch of the Rurik dynasty, those that together have R1a1 - the princes of the Verkhovian lands, their origin from Rurik was already in doubt, even in the times of Ivan the Terrible. So here, it seems to me, the conclusion can be made quite straightforward.
                      And Klyosov is not necessary. This, of course, is not Fomenko, but he does, in general, the same, only on a different level - more scientific or something ...
                      And about Petrei, perhaps you are right, he was the first, although it is difficult to call him a historian. I did not read his works, I heard it with an edge of my ear, and only negative. The merit of these Germans is primarily in the fact that they put the study of history on scientific rails. And for some reason, these rails led them to Normanism.
                  3. +1
                    26 July 2018 17: 20
                    So them, so them, Lord of the trilobite! Justified and tasteful. That's exactly what you need to discuss on the topic of the article!
                2. 0
                  26 July 2018 12: 58
                  There were analogues when they tried to call Vladislav the Polish to the kingdom in the Time of Troubles. He was at least a Slav, but it didn’t work out anyway.

                  Yeah. His dad is a Swede: the son of Johan III and Catherine Jagielonki. And my mother from the Habsburgs, Anna of Austria.
                  If Vladik is a Slav, then what you as a Slav Rurik (even Swedish, even Danish) do not suit you :)))
                  1. +2
                    26 July 2018 13: 10
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Yeah. His dad is a Swede: the son of Johan III and Catherine Jagielonki. And my mother from the Habsburgs, Anna of Austria.

                    Wrong, it happens.
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    If Vladik is a Slav, then what you as a Slav Rurik (even Swedish, even Danish) do not suit you :))

                    Everything suits me, for which there is evidence. But there are fewer than nothing.
                    1. 0
                      26 July 2018 15: 06
                      Wrong, it happens.

                      Not scary, those who do nothing are not mistaken. drinks
                      But there are fewer than nothing.

                      That would be sarcasm Yes
                    2. 0
                      26 July 2018 17: 15
                      I don’t understand why such a fuss comes from - and who was who? For me - so even a Martian! The important thing is not who when what rights he downloaded and pumped, but how many atomic missiles you have and what kind of pension your spent in the USA, China, and ours. Roughly speaking, one thing is important - "but how to raise the dough ?!" If the loot rushing, then good. But no, so be you even three times a Slav ... you are a stupid person with all your haplogroups.
                      1. +1
                        26 July 2018 19: 02
                        Strange things you say. Actually, all historical science is engaged in finding out who it was.
                        But you probably don’t like it when certain characters claim that Alexander Nevsky is Batu Khan and Jesus is Pope Hildebrand?
                        Well, here are some of your unsubstantiated statements that hurt me, beyond which there is nothing beyond populism.
                      2. +1
                        26 July 2018 19: 29
                        Quote: kalibr
                        I do not understand why such a fuss because of who it was?

                        Well, this has no global significance for history, but since Lomonosov this question has been persistently transferred to the ideological-political plane. Actually, if it were not for politics, it would long ago, in my opinion, be closed by a completely scientifically grounded Norman theory.
                        We will wait for the results of full-scale archaeological research Shum-gory in the Novgorod region. Find inside Rurik - everything will become clear. Even now I myself am ready to go digging - it’s impossible, they will plant it and they will do it right. smile
  8. +1
    25 July 2018 10: 22
    When describing the jewelry of the Vikings, one must not forget to indicate that only representatives of the nobility owned them. Most of the Scandinavian population did not have them.

    PS It is especially funny to read the maxims of Arab authors about the "non-hygiene" of Europeans - despite the fact that the left hand of the Arabs was specialized for wiping the ass due to the lack of plant leaves in the deserts of Arabia and the Sahara, as well as water for washing hands laughing
  9. BAI
    0
    25 July 2018 10: 25
    In the photo of one female skull, amazingly good white teeth and teeth are all in place. What is the development of dentistry and hygiene of the time, died young and why did not the teeth turn black in the grave?
    1. 0
      25 July 2018 17: 10
      I do not know! But they did not find her in the grave. In a swamp!
  10. +1
    25 July 2018 11: 03
    Like today's men and women, the Vikings were dressed according to gender, age, and economic status. (...) The Arab diplomat Ibn Fadlan wrote that he saw Viking women wearing green glass necklaces during their journey.
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, what kind of women could be Vikings? Viking is profession, and obviously not female! Could be Viking women!

    By the way, convex brooches were found in different parts of Europe, where the Vikings settled, including England, Ireland, Russia and Iceland. This indicates that Viking women, too, may have participated in the expeditions of their husbands.
    Of course, in colonization they participated in expeditions - but certainly not in robber raids!
  11. +1
    25 July 2018 12: 12
    and below the horse - narrow

    poor horse lol
    In general, it’s very interesting, thanks.
    It seems to me that there is nothing shameful among the ancestors to have some share of the Scandinavians.
    1. +1
      25 July 2018 12: 54
      It’s not shameful to have, only they are not there, as they tried, but did not find.
    2. 0
      25 July 2018 17: 13
      Senior Sailor (Ivan Ochenkov) Knee - of course. Well, the eye is getting blurred, what to do ...
      1. 0
        25 July 2018 20: 25
        It happens.
        I’m just used to looking for fleas in the text, (which doesn’t interfere with skipping my own :)))
  12. +1
    25 July 2018 17: 11
    Quote: Weyland
    Could be Viking women!

    You noticed it well! "Literal translation" sometimes sounds silly in Russian. This was taken from the materials of the Viking Museum in Copenhagen ...
  13. +1
    25 July 2018 17: 13
    The main indicator of attitude towards the tribe is female jewelry - temporal rings, but they are unfortunately absent.
  14. 0
    25 July 2018 17: 25
    Quote: Vsevolod
    only they are not

    Do you know that for sure?
  15. 0
    25 July 2018 19: 53
    Quote: Flavius
    As a result, what do we have? Yes, almost nothing, solid fog

    We have a historical document that has not yet been disavowed. Where it is clearly written what is written. This is fog, not fog ... There is no other. If not, then this is a FACT. And so far none of the SPECIALISTS has challenged him. And there’s nothing more to argue about. Opinions can be a lot. Not based on anything. And not owned by specialists.
    1. +1
      25 July 2018 20: 54
      Quote: kalibr
      There is no other.

      You have taken an unconstructive position.
      There are a lot of sources that speak of Rus. They speak directly and specifically. Some say that the Rus are Slavs (Iranian sources). Western Europeans call Russia rugs. And rugs are a historical tribe that has been traced from the beginning of the era. PVL is unclear what he says at all.
      And the difficulty here is that it is very difficult, and it is simply impossible to bring all these sources to one denominator.
      And there are a lot of SPECIALISTS opinions that radically disagree on this issue. And there are many FACTS and they are all different.
      Although, of course, consider the Rus Vikings very romantic. By these methods, Pashtuns can also be attributed there.
      1. 0
        26 July 2018 12: 34
        I always take a non-constructive position when they offer me to fantasize according to the mass of sources and following the mass of specialists. I do not like mass! I believe that the principle is better less, but better. I can’t spread my thoughts on the tree. Therefore, I am writing on the basis of the most accessible sources for the mass (and known) and draw conclusions that are consistent with the opinion of authorities.
  16. 0
    25 July 2018 20: 14
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    In those days, no one had a clue about Kievan Rus, even its population. She simply was not there. Used the concept of "land of Russia", "peoples of Russia" in the sense of "belonging to Russia"

    Yes, yes - after 862 of the year, the standard European term Earth with the addition of Ruska (an abbreviated version of Rus) was used to designate the East Slavic state with the capital in Novgorod and then in Kiev, named after the titular tribe of the ruling Rurikovich dynasty.
    1. 0
      26 July 2018 10: 17
      Novgorod was not under the control of Rurik Rus. Russia appeared after the unification of the lands by the Varangian prince Oleg (brother of the wife of Rurik Efanda). That is, it is obvious that Oleg was a Varangian-Rus.
  17. 0
    26 July 2018 11: 37
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Embassy of the Rus to the Byzantine Emperor 838

    Do you understand the meaning of the text of the Bertin Annals of 839 of the year?

    Franks Emperor Louis I identified in the Byzantine embassy a group of comrades who were self-named "dews" (in the text Rhos), but verification showed that they were Sveons (Sueonum, Swedes), who served as mercenaries at the Khagan (chacanus) of Khazaria - found in treasures in Sweden a large number of Khazar silver coins, the minting of which dates back to the 9 century, which were paid to mercenaries.

    In connection with the fraud revealed, Louis I did not begin to negotiate with the Swedes, especially since the alleged kagan commission for negotiations was not confirmed by a written document.

    PS Do not tell my slippers with Rurik Jutland, who is known only for living long before the appearance of Rurik Rusky in Novgorod in the 862 year.
  18. 0
    26 July 2018 20: 02
    Quote: Flavius
    Well, here are some of your unsubstantiated statements hurt me, beyond which there is nothing beyond populism

    Write your material without populism, that's all. Let's see what to whom and what will be cut after reading your text.
    1. +1
      26 July 2018 21: 11
      Quote: kalibr
      Write your stuff without populism that's all

      Edak and Fomenko with Nosovsky will answer their critics. Because it’s the easiest way and you can cover any hack.
      1. 0
        27 July 2018 07: 29
        So you can’t write? Then bear it! He wrote as I see fit and I don't look back at anyone. If you were the editor of the journal Voprosy istorii, then ... I would have thought more.
        1. +1
          27 July 2018 08: 12
          Quote: kalibr
          So you can’t write?

          I understood your position, it’s from a series - if you don’t like our free medicine (roads, etc.), then heal (build) yourself.
          What is written in the article doesn’t matter, the main thing is that they got the money, and there you can always turn the arrows on Angus McBride. laughing
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. The comment was deleted.
  21. +1
    27 July 2018 15: 50
    That is, if the Russians are Scandinavians, and scientists have no particular doubts about this today, then it means the Vikings who sailed here to trade And for a long time we have that Rus, that the Scandinavians are one and the same ...?
    1. +2
      27 July 2018 21: 52
      Quote: Dzungar
      And for a long time we have that Rus, that the Scandinavians are one and the same ...?

      You are late. Angus McBride decided so, and since he decided so, the question is closed))
      1. 0
        28 July 2018 14: 27
        I'm sorry, who is Anus McBride ...?
        1. +1
          28 July 2018 14: 34
          Ask V. Shpakovsky. Acquaintance to him.
  22. 0
    28 July 2018 15: 06
    In short, the Russians themselves are confused in who they are and where they came from .... Or is there a purposeful company to confuse all versions about the origin of the Rus .... Why ...?

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