Who could have blown up the Novorossiysk?

125
At the end of October 1955, Sevastopol was preparing for the celebration of the 100th anniversary of the famous defense of the city during the Crimean War. Naturally, solemn events on such an occasion could not do without the ships and personnel of the Black Sea fleet. Especially for participation in the celebration of the 100th anniversary of the defense of Sevastopol on the evening of October 28, 1955, the battleship Novorossiysk, the most powerful ship of the Soviet Navy, returned from the campaign. He moored on barrel number 3 in the area of ​​the Marine Hospital.

Who could have blown up the Novorossiysk?




Since the commander of the battleship, captain of the 1 rank, Alexander Pavlovich Kukhta, was on leave, the duties of the commander were performed by the senior assistant captain of the 2 rank, Grigory Arkadyevich Khurshudov. When the ship moored, part of its crew, including the captain of 2 rank Khurshudov, went ashore. More than one and a half thousand personnel remained on the ship - officers, sailors, cadets of sea schools and soldiers. The senior officer was left to the assistant commander of the ship captain 2 rank Zosim Grigorievich Serulov.

October 29 in 1: The 31 of the night under the hull of the ship from the starboard side in its nose thundered a powerful explosion. It was later determined that it was equivalent to 1000-1200 kg of TNT. The explosion of the body of the battleship was pierced through, in the underwater part a hole of size 150 m² was formed. Since the team's nasal cockpit was located at the epicenter of the explosion, the crew members who were there from 150 to 175 were killed directly during the explosion. After 30 seconds after the first explosion, the second explosion thundered - this time along the port side. It led to the appearance of a dent in 190 m². It is good that the artillery cellars of the battleship were not touched by the explosion, since in this case five cruisers moored alongside would also have fallen victim to the crash. In the resulting hole rushed streams of sea water.

At first, attempts were made to tow the Novorossiysk to shallow water, however, at this time, the Vice-Admiral Viktor Aleksandrovich Parkhomenko, commander of the Black Sea Fleet, arrived at the scene of events and ordered to suspend towing. This decision led to fatal consequences for the people aboard the Novorossiysk. Moreover, the commander did not even immediately agree to the evacuation of sailors and officers who did not participate in the rescue work. Waiting for evacuation on the poop lined up near the 1000 sailors, but it was too late. The list began to grow rapidly and the sailors, lined up on the poop, began to roll overboard. Directly on them flew mechanisms and anti-aircraft installations. Only a few dozen sailors managed to get on boats to neighboring ships. In 4: 14 the ship lay on the port side and soon turned over with a keel. In such a position, Novorossiysk was afloat for a long time, rising to a meter above the water level 2-3. Part of the sailors for some time was in the compartments. However, only nine sailors were able to save - seven people got out through a hole cut through the bottom of the stern, five hours after the ship was tipping over. Two more people were rescued after 50 hours after the Novorossiysk overturned.



The death of "Novorossiysk" occurred in front of the whole of Sevastopol, sailors and officers commanding the Black Sea Fleet. It was especially bitter to realize that precious time was lost when it was possible to save the crew members of the battleship. In total, 829 people died in the crash - sailors and soldiers aboard the Novorossiysk, as well as rescue teams that arrived from other ships of the squadron to carry out rescue operations. Many sailors were immured in the compartments of the sunken ship. The divers involved in the emergency work subsequently reported that the sound of the sailors locked in the hull of the battleship continued until November 1.

Almost a year after the disaster, in the summer of 1956, the Expedition of special purpose underwater operations EON-35 began to lift Novorossiysk using the blowing method. It was only in April 1957 that the preparatory work was completed, after which the purge began - April 30 preliminary, and May 4 - general. On the same day, Novorossiysk surfaced - first the bow, then the feed. Already 14 in May 1957, the ship was towed to Cossack Bay and turned over. Subsequently, he was dismantled for metal and sent to the Zaporizhstal plant.



In 1955, the battleship Novorossiysk was already 44 of the year. Behind this venerable ship, which remained before the catastrophe the most powerful warship of the Soviet fleet, was very interesting. story. The dreadnought "Giulio Cesare" ("Giulio Cesare"), namely the so-called "Novorossiysk" before 1949, was laid down on 24 on June 1910, in Genoa, launched on 15 on October 1911, and on 14 on May 1914, was included in the Royal Navy Italy. "Giulio Cesare" was one of three ships of the "Conte di Cavour", a project which was developed by engineer-general Edoardo Masdea.

During World War I, Cesare, part of Rear Admiral C. Korsi’s 1 Combat Division, was mainly in the port of Taranto because the fleet command did not want to risk expensive new dreadnoughts, allowing them to be used only to counter other similar ships. Therefore, for all the time Italy’s participation in the First World War, Cesare spent only 31 an hour on combat missions and 387 hours on training exercises.



A more difficult test for the ship was World War II. Cesare participated in the fighting in the Mediterranean. On July 9, 1940, on the way back from Benghazi (Libya) to Taranto, “Cesare” was damaged by a shell from the English battleship “Warspite”; on the night of January 8–9, 1941, it was damaged during an English attack aviation to the port of Naples. On January 3-5, 1942, Cesare participated in its last convoy to North Africa, and then was withdrawn from the existing fleet. It was found that deficiencies in the design of the ship could lead to its death from only one torpedo hit.

After Italy withdrew from the Second World War, the powers - the victors began to divide the Italian Navy. The USSR wanted to get new Italian battleships of the Littorio type, but Western countries managed to circumvent the Soviet Union. As a result, the Soviet Union got only thirty-year-old “Giulio Cesare”. But the Soviet command was not very upset by this fact because it planned to build new battleships in the future, and the Cesare could be used to train their crews. 9 December 1948 of the year “Cesare” forever left the naval base in Taranto and headed for Augusta, from where he headed for the port of Vlora in Albania.

February 3 The solemn transfer of the battleship, temporarily designated as Z1949, to the Soviet Union in the person of the commission headed by Admiral Gordey Ivanovich Levchenko took place in Vlore. 11 February 6 was the flag of the USSR Navy raised on the ship. Two weeks later, the ship headed for Sevastopol, where 1949 arrived February 26 of the year. 1949 March 5. The battleship was named Novorossiysk. Thus began the short history of the service "old man - Italian" in the Navy of the Soviet Union.

Naturally, there was a lot of work ahead, not only to modernize the ship, but also to bring it to a state corresponding to the conditions of service in the USSR Navy. For example, there were no radars, small caliber anti-aircraft artillery on the ship, there was almost no in-ship communications and radio communications. It was difficult to organize even the nourishment of the sailors, since they were fed pasta and olive oil in the Italian navy, while the Soviet navy had completely different nutritional requirements for the personnel. It was also necessary to re-equip the cockpits, since they were not intended for Soviet climatic conditions. For six years, very impressive work was carried out on the ship.

After the tragic death of Novorossiysk, the Soviet leadership lowered a number of admirals and senior fleet officers in the ranks and positions. Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Nikolai Gerasimovich Kuznetsov, Commander-in-Chief of the Soviet Navy, was demoted to Vice-Admiral and dismissed with the phrase “without the right to serve in the fleet”. The Black Sea Fleet Commander, Vice-Admiral Parkhomenko, was lowered to the rank of Rear Admiral and sent to the Pacific Fleet by the First Deputy Commander. Rear Admiral Boris Terentevich Kalachev, Head of the Political Directorate of the Black Sea Fleet, Vice Admiral Nikolai Mikhailovich Kulakov, Commander of the 24 Division of Water District Protection, Rear Admiral Anatoly Alexandrovich Galitsky were demoted or transferred to other duty stations.

It is still unknown what caused the explosions at the Novorossiysk which led the ship to the crash. If you do not take into account the fantastic version of the intrigues of the KGB, the struggle of Marshal Zhukov against Admiral Kuznetsov and the like, then the most plausible version can be called the mine version, according to which the ship could explode from the German ground mine. In 1941, German aviation and the fleet mined the Black Sea near Sevastopol. Although after the liberation of the city, intensive mine clearance work was carried out, no one could guarantee that the mines in the bays of Sevastopol still remained. For example, in 1956-1958, already after the tragedy of Novorossiysk, 19 German bottom mines were discovered. Three mines were found right fifty meters from the place where the battleship Novorossiysk was killed. The divers involved in the lifting operations also confirmed the version that the explosion had "external" causes - the nature of the breach showed that something had exploded from the outside of the ship.

If not mine, then what could cause the "external explosion" of the battleship? There was also a version of a torpedo attack, according to which Novorossiysk could be attacked by a small or ultra-low foreign submarine. At that time, the Soviet Union was in extremely tense relations with the United States and NATO. It is likely that the enemy country hoped to weaken the power of the Black Sea Fleet by undermining Novorossiysk. Moreover, NATO was very much afraid of modernizing Novorossiysk and equipping it with nuclear weapons.

The third version claims that the death of the battleship "Novorossiysk" could be the work of famous Italian combat swimmers from the former 10 fleet of MAS. Why precisely Italians? The answer to this question is very simple, because until the end of the Second World War "Novorossiysk" was precisely the Italian dreadnought "Giulio Cesare". It was rumored that Prince Yunio Valerio Borghese, who at one time commanded the MAS 10 flotilla, had sworn to avenge the shame and humiliation of the Italian fleet.

It is worth noting that just in 1949, when “Cesare” was transferred to the USSR and became “Novorossiysk”, Prince Borghese was released - his 12 years assigned for war crimes against partisans and the civilian population, he did not wait until the end and was released Naturally, such a unique specialist as Borghese, who was still relatively young (43 of the year at the time of release), could not remain out of sight of Western intelligence agencies. And by itself, Borghese was a fascist fanatic who longed to continue his struggle. In addition, Italian combat swimmers from his flotilla who had a unique experience were young and healthy. Therefore, the version that a foreign submarine delivered the 10 veterans of the MAS flotilla to Sevastopol, after which they did their usual work - they carried out a diversion, looks quite plausible. Considering that Italy was (and remains) a member of NATO, and the leadership of the North Atlantic Alliance was very afraid of the strengthening of the Soviet naval presence in the Black Sea, it is likely that Prince Borghese’s swimmers acted on the direct instructions of the Italian and American intelligence services.

At that time, the version about the involvement of Italian combat swimmers in the Novorossiysk explosion was not officially confirmed. However, they talked a lot about this, and in 2000-e, some details began to surface. So, it turned out that shortly before the tragic events, a cargo ship from Italy came to the Crimea, which hypothetically could have delivered an ultra-small submarine and combat swimmers on board.



Finally, in 2013, an interview with Hugo D'Esposito, a veteran of the Gamma swim swimmer unit, who was part of the MAS 10 flotilla, appeared in the Italian press. According to Hugo D'Eposito, it was the Italian combat swimmers who wanted to take revenge for the bitterness from the division of the Italian fleet and undermined the "Novorossiysk". But besides this phrase, the veteran of the Gamma division did not provide any details. Therefore, it is hardly necessary to perceive his recognition as an unequivocal confirmation of the involvement of the Italians. After all, we all know that in old age people want to draw attention to themselves and their lives, they forget a lot or start to interpret it incorrectly. Whatever it was, but the version of the Italian trail looks quite real.

But there were one more specialists of the underwater war who theoretically could have mined Novorossiysk. This is the famous 12 fleet of the British Navy, commanded by Lionel Crabb, captain of the 2 rank, a legendary personality in the world of underwater saboteurs, who was not inferior in popularity to Prince Valerio Borghese himself. During World War II, and after it, the British combat swimmers acted very successfully, but this is a story for other material.

To be continued ...
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  1. Cat
    +9
    19 July 2018 06: 21
    Ilya, to be honest, I expected more!
    Alas, I received just a popular article for the magazine, but at least kill it is not your style, albeit your style and hand. Where is the highlight?
    And so - purely the level of A. Samsonov, this is not your horse, not yours.
    Sincerely, Kitty!
    1. +11
      19 July 2018 06: 59
      Quote: Kotischa
      Alas, I received just a popular article for the magazine, but at least kill it is not your style, albeit your style and hand.

      From the "Golden Calf :.
      The red-haired one was quite comfortable with the situation and quite sensibly, albeit monotonously, told the contents of the mass brochure "The mutiny on Ochakovo"


      From the article:
      It is likely that the enemy country was counting on the demolition of Novorossiysk weaken power Black Sea Fleet.

      This ancient "ship" with the word power does not fit very well: it was withdrawn from the Italian fleet at the beginning 1942 g since It revealed,
      that due to design flaws, the battleship could die from one torpedo hit.

      So one bottom mine was enough for him ....
      It was not necessary to take him ....
      1. +5
        19 July 2018 12: 31
        Quote: Olgovich
        ..... It was not necessary to take him ....

        But what about the proverb about the gift of the horse? fellow
        Ships of this class in any case are of great value to the state, which suffered tremendous material losses during the war.
        1. +5
          20 July 2018 02: 09
          Quote: Proxima
          But what about the proverb about the gift of the horse?
          Want to bring the economy of a small country to its knees? Present a battleship or, even cooler, an aircraft carrier.
          As a punishment, the Macedonian village set up to feed a fighting elephant.
          Quote: Proxima
          Ships of this class in any case are of great value to the state, which suffered tremendous material losses during the war.
          Battleships have lived their lives, and this one is also designed with jambs.
        2. 0
          3 August 2018 23: 17
          Quote: Proxima
          But what about the proverb about the gift of the horse?

          And how are the proverbs about a suitcase without a pen and one who pays twice?
      2. MPN
        +5
        19 July 2018 20: 55
        Quote: Olgovich
        So one bottom mine was enough for him ....

        It might be enough, but here
        a powerful explosion thundered in its bow. Later it was determined that it was equivalent to 1000-1200 kg of TNT.
        I am not special in this matter from the word at all, but are there such bottom mines with 1000-1200 kg of TNT?
        1. +6
          20 July 2018 20: 45
          Quote: MPN
          I am not special in this matter from the word at all, but are there such bottom mines with 1000-1200 kg of TNT?

          The German LMB bottom mines had an explosive charge of 690kg. hexonite, just equivalent to 1000 kg of TNT
    2. +5
      19 July 2018 07: 15
      Quote: Kotischa
      Ilya, to be honest, I expected more!

      Vladislav, more here on this link: https://www.litmir.me/bd/?b=177025 mono even download.
      1. Cat
        +2
        20 July 2018 04: 46
        Nikolay, thank you very much !!!
        1. +2
          20 July 2018 05: 56
          Quote: Kotischa
          Nikolay, thank you very much !!!

          Vladislav, for nothing. Another topic: N.P. Muru. Battleship Novorossiysk. (Lessons from the tragedy). So that I do not look for a long time here is the link http://readli.net/lineynyiy-korabl-novorossiysk/
          1. +2
            21 July 2018 16: 04
            hi Comrade Amurets! Thank you very much for the links! good
            1. 0
              26 July 2018 14: 21
              Nikolai Cherkashin, writer, marine painter, former submariner. The story "Requiem for a battleship."
  2. +12
    19 July 2018 06: 51
    This battleship is an old trough, the modernization of which after the First World War gave him practically nothing. Since 1944, it has been used as a floating barracks. Only the stupid craving of our naval "strategists" for large toys made him turn into a warship again. Earlier, very often in the Soviet press he was generally called the “latest battleship”. Our naval "strategist" really wanted to measure pussy with potential opponents. This measure was once the battleships. Time has passed, battleships have become a useless expensive toy, and the thinking of our admirals has remained the same.
    1. +14
      19 July 2018 09: 54
      To argue, possessing the knowledge of 2018 of the year, about what needed to be done in 1945 of the year, is not entirely true. The USSR during the Second World War suffered heavy losses in the naval composition. In the country of devastation, grocery cards, cellars and dugouts. The ships of the far sea and ocean zones are catastrophically small.
      And then the division of the fleet of axis countries. Contrary to the opinion of the author, no one fooled anyone. The Intergovernmental Commission divided the ships of the axis countries into groups and categories (I apologize for the terms). And the ships were divided by lot. We were not lucky with the battleships (Giulio Cesare got it), in some ways we were lucky and some ships (and vessels) served for a long time. But the goal - to "plug the fleet holes" before the appearance of modern ships of their own construction - was fulfilled.
      1. +8
        19 July 2018 13: 34
        In this division, lots of military and non-military ships were divided by lot. So we got the sailboat, which later became the training Admiral Kruzenshtern. The Allies did not need a single axis ship. They took them only so that they would not go to the USSR. They either drowned all the ships taken at once in the Atlantic, or first dragged them to their ports, where they made thousands of photos of the decisions they were interested in, removed the weapons of interest for study and drowned again, or used them as targets and drowned in exercises.
        The battleship was poorly built, even worse modernized. Its main caliber immediately had a weak firing range, and after modernization, its trunks were drilled to increase the caliber. Relatively speaking, they brought it up to almost 13 ", but because of this, it was necessary to reduce the charges so that the barrels could withstand, which further reduced the range. It was impossible to hang towers with 15" guns on it because of the danger of overturning it. For this reason, the second turrets were made two-gun. By the way, when he was a floating barracks, in his cabins wine flowed from the water supply. Ours eliminated this disgrace. They cleaned it of rust and brought it to a workable form with tremendous labor costs. He was not worth it. Only his appearance was like a decent battleship.
        1. 0
          26 July 2018 14: 23
          I remember that we still got an unfinished German aircraft carrier.
          1. -1
            26 July 2018 21: 43
            After WWII, the government of the USSR decided to go to the oceans, and the program for building ocean fleets began. Tom and this overdone ship fell under the new policy. Fly in the ointment: arrived V.A. Parkhomenko not only stopped towing, but ordered to clear the deck, and all the sailors were driven to the lower decks, when the ship capsized, they locked in patriotic songs and waited for release. Rescuers heard and constant knocks But salvation did not happen. died ...
  3. +7
    19 July 2018 07: 02
    Finally, in 2013, an interview appeared in the Italian press with Hugo D'Esposito, a veteran of the Gamma combat swimmers division
    And VO discussed this statement by Esposito, But what's the point, many copies are broken, but the secret of the death of the Empress Empress Maria and the secret of the Novorossiysk Gbela remain secrets. I dug up something, but this is not enough. The sailors were given a dry ration. Os
    carelessness was not at all superfluous:
    as evidenced by archival documents,
    when stopping mechanisms soviet wah
    the vengeance managed to prevent arson
    auxiliary refrigerator ...... Conclusion of the Government Commission
    these said that battleship damage would
    whether caused by a charge explosion on the ground under
    bow of the ship. Possibility
    ship rebounds as a result of internally
    th or contact explosion was excluded,
    given the nature of the damage to the case,
    sludge discharge, the nature and size of the funnel in
    ground and recording by geophysical laboratories
    seismic oscillations obtained
    ny as a result of the explosion. Charge weight in tro
    tyl equivalent determined by
    1 000-1 1 00 kg. By analyzing volumes of
    damage and features
    designs and combat use times
    l ammunition commission was the mouth
    It was found that it most likely took place
    explosion of a german bottom mine like RMH
    or LMB delivered during the Great
    World War II.
    In the aftermath of the disaster, two
    Yes, in the Sevastopol Bay discovered 1 9
    German bottom mines, including three on
    less than 50 m from the place of death
    battleship. The Commission noted that the failure
    water management organization
    nogo area did not exclude penetration
    to the bay underwater x saboteurs however
    objective evidence of sabotage
    found. .... In a considerable degree of disaster, especially
    design flaws themselves
    th ship. During the modernization of 1 933-
    1 937 years the battleship was overloaded, respectively
    due to buoyancy,
    stability has worsened. Waterproof
    closures and a number of general ship
    systems (sump roll, waste)
    turned out to be imperfect. Fatal role
    played a small number and insufficient
    durability of waterproof foils
    higher than armored (first surface)
    would. "S. Patyanin. * Damned battleships. * Linearve ships of the type * Giulio Cesare *.
  4. +1
    19 July 2018 07: 37
    The option that ordinary guys from the GRU blew up Novorossiysk on the orders of Zhukov is not considered? But in vain ... The reason to remove once and for all Kuznetsov and with him a bunch of admirals.
    (And the combat value of this scrap was still vanishingly small)
    1. +13
      19 July 2018 10: 40
      But the combat value of more than 800 people who died - the GRU did not stop?
      1. +1
        19 July 2018 18: 42
        But the combat value of more than 800 people who died - the GRU did not stop?

        And here, to a large extent, the naval wines: they so ordered
    2. +9
      19 July 2018 11: 00
      Quote: AK64
      The option that ordinary guys from the GRU blew up Novorossiysk on the orders of Zhukov is not considered? But in vain ... The reason to remove once and for all Kuznetsov and with him a bunch of admirals.

      Interestingly, a person generally read the article or not: "If you do not take into account fantastic versions of the KGB’s machinations, the struggle of Marshal Zhukov against Admiral Kuznetsov, and the like, then the most plausible version can be called the mine version, according to which the ship could explode from a German bottom mine. "
      They write, just to write or write, it makes no difference.
    3. +4
      19 July 2018 14: 12
      Quote: AK64
      simple guys from the GRU on the orders of Zhukov
      “But could such people be found? and could Zhukov order this?”
      1. 0
        19 July 2018 18: 50
        “But could such people be found? and could Zhukov order this?”

        So what? Beria GKZH did not hesitate to arrest at all. And they shot Lavrenty Palych in a basement that evening. It was actually a coup, and a much more risky, if you think about it, operation. And nothing, did not blush GKZH. In the struggle for power, they generally pay for mistakes and indecision with life (moreover, their own, but they feel sorry for themselves somehow).

        As for Caesar, the victims were not planned, and should not have happened. It is already the naval carried out rescue operations so successfully that 829 people died.
        1. +4
          19 July 2018 21: 53
          Quote: AK64
          “But could such people be found? and could Zhukov order this?”

          So what? .
          -Why should I exchange for a ship -when it was possible to order to simply declare Kuznetsov an enemy of the people and spank right away? The risk that comes out is much lower than when delivering 1500kg explosives under the ship ....
          Leaks of information during the arrest of Beria is zero - Zhukov himself arrested him, the leak of information during the preparation of the explosion is awesome (from accident / gouging to the banal vigilance of the ship’s ship)
          Would Zhukov take such a risk? An experienced person who conducted a bunch of military operations and knew how operations break down due to information leakage? And at stake is not a division / front- at stake is ...
          The risk in the case of the arrest of Kuznetsov on the Beria principle is generally zero, the fleet is far from Moscow, in contrast to the divisions of Beria
          1. +1
            19 July 2018 22: 59
            Kuznetsov (and sailors in general) was not on his own, but a member of the "anti-Party Malenkov-Bulganin group." It seems to you that everything is simple - "went and arrested". Who would Khrushch Kuznetsov arrest? He did not control GB at that time. His power support was - army (Zhukov)
            1. +5
              19 July 2018 23: 46
              Quote: AK64
              Who would Khrushch Kuznetsov arrest?
              that is, the army (Zhukov) is not enough for you? The balance of forces is the army near Moscow (1-2 hours and troops in Moscow, any of them), and the fleet is in the middle of nowhere?
              and by the way, you imagine how it is - "Comrades fighters! I order - it is necessary to blow belay Soviet belay battleship belay! "...
              Zhukov did not live in 30, but he does not know how TALKS they could have arrested him, anointed his forehead with green stuff ... and here it’s not a conversation - here’s the action ...
              In your opinion, he should trust at least a few specialists, promise them something ( request ) -Not for the Soviet power, the warship called to blow up. Yes, and everyone understood that this was an unambiguous tower, it wasn’t a twist in the pocket of the Soviet power. They could hand over in seconds, and he also understood that.
              1. 0
                20 July 2018 06: 26
                Well, yes, yes: why should such a civil war begin? Is it nothing that the fleet has weapons and even special services? Who is Zhukov (at that time) to arrest anyone?

                They introduced the Beetle to the Politburo precisely because the ONLY way to get Beria --- was his "arrest" right at the meeting. They couldn’t get it in any other way. And it’s all easy for you: “why didn’t we go and arrest!”

                Khrushchev at that time not only did not control the GB --- he generally only fought for power. If he had begun to do something like this --- and the rest of the Politburo would immediately have united against him.

                You do not understand what fantastic options you offer.

                In general, you will excuse me, but I will not discuss this topic with you further: I am not interested
                1. +2
                  20 July 2018 08: 30
                  Quote: AK64
                  You do not understand what fantastic options you offer.
                  "Do you understand? where are Zhukov with the troops, where is Beria with his own, where are Kuznetsov with the fleet, do you catch the distance? The nearest fleet is from Moscow how many? 600 km? and Tamanskaya? 10 km? who will be able to provide armed support before OWN? Did the Berievskys manage to help their own?
                  And why would the naval have time?

                  Quote: pishchak
                  Comrade Svoy1970, why should the State Committee for Housing or the National Union of Artists personally give such orders to the performers, think for yourself, is this their level of competence ?! What, more or less experienced in "rat battles", party or military functionary will allow himself to goof off ?!

                  1) the level of competence does not play a role in the conspiracy - they will shoot all in case of failure. You don’t have to plan the assault on Berlin. The more knowledgeable a piece from the mosaic, the higher the likelihood of leakage / betrayal
                  2) Someone discredited Beria - to who was arrested? Who prevented Kuznetsov from being summoned to a meeting in the Moscow Region and arrested? for loss of trust / collapse / theft / connection with the British / overdraft reasons for any more or less large boss
                  3) just that the information about Beria’s arrest immediately climbed in all directions, obviously denies any possibility of such complicated plans as a ship explosion to discredit
                  4) In addition, you forget about the possible NOT Kuznetsov’s displacement - well, yes, the ship exploded, the ship’s commander was appointed the switchman, the admiral was reprimanded for poor control over l / s. Could this be? yes easily. And then what?
          2. +1
            20 July 2018 01: 08
            hi Comrade Svoy1970, why should the GKZh or NSH personally give such orders to performers, think for yourself, is this their level of competence smile ?! What, more or less experienced in "rat battles", party or military functionary will allow himself to goof off ?!
            Performers should know only that part of the general mosaic that is personally assigned to them! And each a priori knows that the less you know, the better you sleep, and that the mouth of the castle is a long tongue, a short life!
            What does it mean to a honored war hero who enjoys well-deserved authority among the majority of his subordinates, many of whom are battered combat commanders, and so, from the flounder’s bay, "in front of the entire fleet," the chief naval commander is to be arrested and "declared an enemy of the people ", and this is all without preliminary discrediting in the eyes of subordinates and" public opinion ", and you will go far with such an arrested person, especially in the location of the fleet’s units, and even" far from Beria’s divisions "?! smile
            The prerequisites must be created and public opinion prepared, you don’t understand anything in the “undercover process” winked , after all, surely they were a pioneer and a Komsomol member, and even a party one, and haven’t they ever come across anything like this ?!
            At stake were (and were most likely, after the operation was completed, cut down, because the details for more than half a century did not “hint”, because the story of Beria’s “arrest” surfaced almost immediately, even hardly stored in a non-declassified special folder "inherited presidential archives ?!) the heads of performers and their immediate superiors, and all the superior superiors, heads, as usual," have nothing to do with "and" neither by hearing, nor by spirit "- are more expensive!
            Such an order was and is not only in the USSR, but throughout the rest of the world!
            And to find the performer and make him do "destructive work", and then shut up forever, there are a lot of ways, simple and complicated, to anyone, if necessary, you can choose a key, all people love, if not themselves, then their neighbors, but those kuguts who supposedly “love nobody” can also be “motivated” accordingly, and you say ... after all, service people are the most addicted and a priori ready to sacrifice their lives for the good of the Motherland, which some Likhodey from the authorities used enjoy crafty!
    4. Alf
      +2
      19 July 2018 20: 10
      Quote: AK64
      The option that ordinary guys from the GRU blew up Novorossiysk on the orders of Zhukov is not considered? But in vain ... The reason to remove once and for all Kuznetsov and with him a bunch of admirals.
      (And the combat value of this scrap was still vanishingly small)

      Exactly, exactly. The bloody tyrant personally ordered, and Beria personally conducted the operation.
      1. +2
        19 July 2018 20: 27
        Exactly, exactly. The bloody tyrant personally ordered, and Beria personally conducted the operation.


        Quite the opposite: GKZH + Khrushchev then fought against the "anti-party group" Malenkov-Bulganin. The sailors in general, and Kuznetsov in particular, supported precisely the Malenkov-Bulganinsky group. In fact, the explosion of Novorossiysk Kuznetsov, and a number of his supporters were removed from the fleet once and for all. Malenkov and Bulganin lost power support, and the GKZh group + Khrushchev finally won

        Beria (by that time long dead), as we see, has nothing to do with it. So it would be more empathetic, citizen troll. It is necessary to prepare for impromptu.
        1. Alf
          +3
          20 July 2018 18: 31
          Why didn’t the Baltic battleships beetle their bugs?
          1. 0
            20 July 2018 20: 30
            it’s easier the bridge on the railway under the Murman and ...-- the separate Kola president accuses the navy of oppressing mackerel and cod. ..
  5. +11
    19 July 2018 08: 23
    Quote: AK64
    The option that ordinary guys from the GRU blew up Novorossiysk on the orders of Zhukov is not considered? But in vain ... The reason to remove once and for all Kuznetsov and with him a bunch of admirals.
    (And the combat value of this scrap was still vanishingly small)

    Have a bite!
    1. +1
      19 July 2018 18: 51
      The Italians are a much more fantastic version. But they still loot
  6. +4
    19 July 2018 10: 44
    As for the conclusions of the commission, there are approximately 200-250kg of explosives in a German bottom mine, and according to experts, the 1st explosion is equivalent to 1000-1100kg of explosives. There is some problem!
    1. +3
      19 July 2018 15: 36
      Quote: sibiryouk
      As for the conclusions of the commission, there are approximately 200-250kg of explosives in a German bottom mine, and according to experts, the 1st explosion is equivalent to 1000-1100kg of explosives.

      ??
      Read here http://army.armor.kiev.ua/engenear/lmb.shtml
      almost 700 kg of hexonite.
  7. +4
    19 July 2018 10: 58
    Even it was difficult to arrange food for the sailors, since they were fed pasta and olive oil in the Italian navy, and the Soviet navy had completely different nutrition requirements for personnel.

    Masterpiece! And if noodles with carrots, or buckwheat porridge? fellow
  8. PPD
    +1
    19 July 2018 11: 25
    The statements of this "Don Pedro" from Italy are the only thing you can, just laugh.
    A rusty trough that had long been sent to rest.
  9. +2
    19 July 2018 11: 28
    The sabotage version cannot be seriously considered, not only because Giulio Cesare / Novorossiysk was an antique incapacitated junk, but, most importantly, because by the results of WWII the value of large artillery ships was slightly higher than the baseboard, and ALL naval powers at that time massively sawed on metal is much more modern dreadnought. Novorossiysk did not represent any strategic value.

    I somehow came across the version that the explosion occurred immediately upon the return of the ship from the large Black Sea Fleet exercises, in which, among other things, underwater combat swimmers practiced training mining of warships and combat mining of target ships. Our natural slovenliness could take place, as a result of which a military charge was hung on Novorossiysk.
    1. +6
      19 July 2018 12: 47
      "Hang" a device weighing only BB 1 - 000 kg under water. - WHAT IS IT LIKE???
      1. +2
        19 July 2018 13: 11
        These are trifles, when the British tried to drown Tirpitz, they used charges weighing 4400 pounds, which are about 2 tons that were delivered on mini submarines of the X series
        1. +3
          19 July 2018 15: 51
          Quote: Nehist
          These are trifles, when the British tried to drown Tirpitz, they used charges weighing 4400 pounds, which are about 2 tons that were delivered on mini submarines of the X series

          This is one of the first attempts. Then there were others: "16.02.1943, W. Churchill indignantly turned to the admirals:" Do you have any plans for what to do with Tirpitz? We already heard enough talk five months ago. It's just a shame that Italians our ships in the harbor can attack much better than we ourselves ... It’s just terrible that such an expensive prize lies and waits, and there is nobody who can find a way to pick it up. ”And the decision was made.
          Six British ultra-small submarines in an atmosphere of secrecy began preparations for an attack on the German battleships Tirpitz, Lutzov, Scharnhorst. Two for each. And only two of them, presumably “X6” and “X7”, with great difficulty managed to achieve the main goal - the battleship “Tirpitz”. Eight tons of explosives were laid under its bottom.
          September 22, 8.12 a.m. Two huge explosion forces with an interval of one tenth of a second raised a huge battleship weighing 40 thousand tons from the water by two meters. The main cars were torn from the foundations, with a terrible roar of the collapse of the bulkhead of a steel monster. Two cannon towers of a badly wounded battleship with a wild rattle flew off the ball epaulettes, sweeping away all living things in its path Three huge screws and left hand drive jammed. Of the crew, 50 people were injured, one was killed. The pride of the German fleet, the battleship Tirpitz, was permanently incapacitated and markedly reduced activity after recovery. 21.11.1944/617/XNUMX, he was finally destroyed by British aviation. Against the battleship in Troms, the Lancaster of the XNUMXth Squadron was thrown, which, with the help of the Tollboy bombs, delivered the last fatal blow to Tirpitz.
          In the meantime, the British will pay a high price for an underwater sabotage operation against Tirpitz. Of the 24 people who took part in it, ten will die, six will be captured. Only two crews of ultra-small submarines will return to base. "A. M. Chikin." Sea Devils. "
        2. +3
          20 July 2018 12: 29
          That is, the WU weighing more than 1,5 tons (BB + the device itself) was somehow delivered by someone. Correctly? I answered the comrade, who suggested that the VU "forgot their sloppiness" in the past exercises. That is, "Novorossiysk" came after the exercises in Sevastopol with a "hinged" WU weighing about 1 kg. I’m talking about this. “Tirpitz” tried to attack on the parking spot. So?
  10. +3
    19 July 2018 14: 59
    I learned about Novorossiysk from a conversation with an accidental fellow traveler, a Sevastopol sailor, in 1986, when this was not yet written and not spoken about. He in his story rested on the fact that the battleship was allegedly planned to be involved in some sort of landing operation related to Romania (as if there were restless there at that time) and therefore there were many soldiers on board ?! winked
    It was only later that I independently collected and comprehensively comprehended any information available concerning this battleship ...
    To the extent of more than 30 years of unhurried and unbiased accumulation of knowledge on this topic, I consider the most probable diversion of a ship by order of the Zhukovsky-Khrushchev group (the eternal Cui prodist!) To discredit the idea of ​​the ocean fleet and Admiral N.G that promoted it .Kuznetsova! We all remember the “pogrom of the fleet” that followed this “climax” ...
    Regarding the inevitable victims of a planned explosion ?!
    IMHO. And when did this stop anyone in the struggle for power and their own hegemony ?! Take, for example, the well-known example of the New York “twin towers”!
    His leaders ALWAYS regarded people in the Soviet Union as "consumables (" forest is cut, wood chips fly! ")" - this, cultivated by clear order, disrespect for the human life of its citizens, I consider one of the main reasons for the collapse of our common Great Power-USSR ( and Russia wouldn’t “step” (about the unlucky “independent” fragment, and so it’s already clear) on this “rake” again!)! request
    PS When some readers, commentators talk and write about the allegedly backward artillery of this battleship, they forget the reviews of contemporaries, naval specialists, who highly appreciated the capabilities of the main caliber of Novorossiysk, as in the number of volleys per unit time (exceeding the similar capabilities of the Sevastopol HC) "), as well as equipping with nuclear" special ammunition ", which was one of the leading" trends "of that time! Yes
    1. 0
      19 July 2018 20: 15
      Its leaders were ALWAYS considered people in the Soviet Union as "consumables (" forest is cut, wood chips fly! ")" - this, cultivated by clear order, disrespect for the human life of its citizens, I consider one of the main reasons for the collapse of our common Great Power
      CAN REVERSE? - SLOWLY LEAVE TO DR HABITS, MENTALITY FROM MEDIEVAL AGE-FORCE LAW (THE LIFE OF SMERDS WAS NOT APPLIED TO "HIGH-QUALITY"

      YOU ARE READY TO REFUSE “WHICH RUSSIAN DOESN'T LIKE FAST RIDING”?
      --- AND IS THERE ONLY FAST FOOD INSTEAD OF POTATO AND POTATOES WITH A CATLET? - in the West, so many eat and many other habits there, other than ours (forest-steppe)
      1. +2
        19 July 2018 21: 02
        hi Comrade Antivirus, what are you trying to say ?! So far, I see only a substitution of meanings in your comment for my comment ?! Yes
        By and large, there was no respect for their citizens from the hypocritical Soviet authorities, but now, from the "democratic authorities", it is even less, alas (but I did not touch on the current situation, I only warned against stomping on the same "rake "when citizens feel like powerless" cogs "that ruthlessly and pragmatically" chew and spit out the "state" mechanism, completely ignoring their aspirations and hopes)! IMHO
        1. 0
          19 July 2018 21: 31
          no matter the rulers, THERE IS MENTALITY, SOCIAL RELATIONS. UNDERSTANDING, "WHAT IS GOOD .." AND TO WHICH LIMIT YOU CAN DROP DOWN AND FORGET .. "

          determine for yourself - now a more cultured people live than 50, -100, -150 years ago, and MORE - REQUIRES LESS (AND RECEIVES) FROM GOVERNORS
          1. +1
            19 July 2018 22: 40
            So, you, Comrade Anti-Virus, seriously object to the Soviet thesis “trend”: “Forest is cut, wood chips fly!” and the likelihood of undermining the battleship Novorossiysk in the "trickery", the struggle for power and influence, between organized party-industrial militarized groups, the reorientation of considerable budgetary funds from the cost of the ocean navy to the additional needs of the purely ground military command of the Zhukovsky spill ?!
            I even think that the comrade saboteurs didn’t calculate the location of the explosives (then later, at the bottom, after raising the sunken battleship, the remains of the barge, on which the explosives were probably delivered ?!), maybe played the happy role of “miss” when setting on a flank, but the detonation of the bow artillery shells of the GK did not work and the nearby ships remained intact, and the tragedy of the battleship dragged on and, with the correct actions of the naval commanders, it could be towed in shallow water and saved (but then, in fresh wake and surveys of the unorganized and unformed crew (after all, someone will always hear and see something Yes ), it would be possible to expose customers and contractors, and there would have been much fewer victims, would not be drawn to "a major catastrophe with the need for major cardinal conclusions on the leadership of the Navy" winked ?!).
            And what can I "determine", Comrade Antivirus-I lived among those people who lived 50-100 years ago, I knew them personally, they raised me, but the Soviet authorities of them, respectable and conscientious Soviet workers, salt of the earth and defenders of the Fatherland, did not respect the action!
            In words, the Soviet "leaders" crucified in "love for the people", but in reality this was not, alas! Social benefits, free education ("under Stalin" parents had to pay for their children in high school!) And medicine (those who were seriously treated then knew that free was a relative concept, although there was everything), and even free housing (for whom I’m lucky, but not everyone was lucky to get such housing!) - it was, but there was no respect for the person on a national scale (not particular cases depending on the personal qualities of specific functionaries), and then it felt good. Is not one of the evidence for this the almost complete indifference of the majority of the Soviet population during the collapse of the USSR (; Nina Andreeva, who did not compromise on the principles, was in an almost lonely minority!) ?!
            I had to communicate closely with the party farm and the Komsomol activist at the district and city committee levels, and this behind-the-scenes, undeclared, purely consumerist attitude towards the rank and file members of the party and the Komsomol was not hidden among the privates, and during the "years of perestroika" it appeared with might and main! Maybe you, Antivirus, had another experience in the RSFSR ?! I am writing about the industrial Southeast of the then USSR.
            Now, I’m not arguing, all these “leaders” no longer need to be hypocrites (well, perhaps, a little at all, during the election period ...?!), They no longer hide their guise and openly respect request .
            1. +1
              20 July 2018 05: 56
              I answered about the other (?) - RESPECT FOR THE PEOPLE IS ADDED FROM YEAR TO YEAR, BUT IT WAS VERY SMALL AT 19, MORE BECAME AT 20 AND ADDED ANOTHER B21 V.


              !!!!!!!!!!!! "PEOPLE" GETS RESPECT AND CARE EXACTLY AS MUCH AS MUCH WANTS TO REQUIRE !!!!!!!!! and the government gives as much respect as it can squeeze out of itself at the request of the "people"
              all the chatter is a mentality, a system of checks and balances, and so on, "politics" and "economy" - interaction, "social ties." -The official is first raised by a child and after 30 years gives respect to the people at the level received in 1980 or 1910, or 2010 (will be) and the "people" take such "care", but do not take too much
              1. +1
                20 July 2018 11: 44
                hi Comrade Antivirus, to be honest, I finally understood and really liked your INTERESTING line of reasoning and yours, new to me Yes , the angle of view on the indicated problem! I completely agree with you, I have something to ponder and grumble recourse smile ! good
                1. +1
                  20 July 2018 20: 37
                  grumbling is one thing, but according to "my theory" we are in a transition period (towards a social state-woo and general woo), it will hang another 10 -20 years.
                  and we may not come - the density per 1 sq km and the number of people may not go into the quality of social ties at a new level.
                  we will remain in “post-serfdom” with elements of collectivism from 1930–50 (collective farm, community, social security) + the simplest division of labor (with the exception of the aviation industry, etc., high technology is under the scrutiny of the authorities (priority projects).

                  NOW MOSCOW IS ALREADY PUSHING AND ARE SUSPENDING AGREEMENTS, WHERE EVERYTHING IS GOOD AND EMPTY TO THOUSAND KV KM - DEPRESSIVE REGIONS.
                  there aren’t enough people and we’ll get several sub. regions not interconnected by social ties (human) - only by force
    2. 0
      25 July 2018 10: 46
      The artillery of Novorossiysk was backward not because of the old, but because of the artillery. WWII indicated the rapid departure from the scene of artillery ships, in principle: naval aviation and guided anti-ship missiles entered the scene.
  11. +5
    19 July 2018 16: 35
    The equivalent in TNT exactly matches the German bottom mine.
    Thus, the cruiser Kirov could sink after the war. The probability that something else was beating is negligible.
    People in the Soviet Union ALWAYS regarded their leaders as "consumables

    The leaders of the USSR appreciated people more than their generals and officers and much more than the leaders and presidents of most other countries.
    Examples: the king of the British Empire, the emperor of Japan, the leaders of the Republic of China and Poland, and so on.
    1. +1
      19 July 2018 20: 05
      hi Oh, comrade Kostadinov, what an idealist you are, I swear smile ! But I also have idealistic ideas about sunny Bulgaria of the socialist period and only pleasant memories! Yes
      Would you tell this "The leaders of the USSR appreciated people more than their generals and officers and much more than the leaders and presidents of most other countries." so, offhand, to the “more valuable” soldiers and sailors, and to the junior commanders-heroes of the defense of Sevastopol, on the orders of the leaders of the USSR left by the fleeing “less valuable” generals and admirals on Cape Khersones in 1942 ?!
      I did not have the opportunity to compare the attitude of the WB king, the emperor of Japan, the leaders of the PRC and Poland, and so on, because I was an ordinary Soviet man and I know what I'm writing about, not at all theoretically! Fortunately, there was time more than once, and to think over and summarize everything 1001 times, you think that I am the only one who is tormented by the same questions- "How did it happen? Who is to blame? And What should I do?"
      All the best to you, Comrade Kostadinov, and Thank you very much for being with us Russians during this difficult time!
      Sincerely.
    2. 0
      19 July 2018 20: 13
      Quote: Kostadinov
      TNT equivalent exactly matches German bottom mine


      And are there appropriate calculations? Exact correspondence and exactly the German bottom mine?

      The probability that something else was beating is negligible.


      And this is where from? Surely he himself was present at the bottom of the Novorossiysk at the time of the explosion, or later he himself found the remains of a German bottom mine and found that the equivalent in TNT exactly matches the German bottom mine? It's time to change the name to the name of a famous storyteller. Or are you from Gabrovo and you are simply supposed to compose such fables?
  12. 0
    19 July 2018 17: 43
    In theory, the Italians are most interested in destroying this battleship.
    1. +1
      19 July 2018 21: 24
      Quote: NF68
      In theory, the Italians are most interested in destroying this battleship.

      hi Comrade NF68, the "Italian version" deserves to be, since in the investigation of the LESS CRIME all probable versions should be considered.
      But I consider the “Italian footprint” to be one of the least probable, although the “hot Italian guys” can “tell a lot” of everything (as in that joke, “and you tell me!”), Attributing to themselves the image “severe oath of oath” and supposedly avenging the cruel ", the more so since the explosion of the battleship is obvious and, from the context, they understood that the true culprits would want to remain incognito Yes (This Italian boast and allegedly held, again, "according to the stories", "secret rewarding of distinguished swimmers" are one of the signs of Italians not participating in the undermining of Novorossiysk. IMHO
      And, purely human, there was nothing for Prince Borghese to do, but to run into new troubles, the war and his prison, so clever, didn’t they teach anything, didn’t they grow up ?! I do not want to study the biographical twists and personality structure of this Italian hero, but I recommend it to those who are seriously studying the topic. wink
      By the way, the question to the historians of the special forces, what kind of perturbations the Soviet Army and Navy suffered, and their special forces during this period of our Soviet era ?!
      1. +1
        20 July 2018 16: 24
        Quote: pishchak
        Quote: NF68
        In theory, the Italians are most interested in destroying this battleship.

        hi Comrade NF68, the "Italian version" deserves to be, since in the investigation of the LESS CRIME all probable versions should be considered.
        But I consider the “Italian footprint” to be one of the least probable, although the “hot Italian guys” can “tell a lot” of everything (as in that joke, “and you tell me!”), Attributing to themselves the image “severe oath of oath” and supposedly avenging the cruel ", the more so since the explosion of the battleship is obvious and, from the context, they understood that the true culprits would want to remain incognito Yes (This Italian boast and allegedly held, again, "according to the stories", "secret rewarding of distinguished swimmers" are one of the signs of Italians not participating in the undermining of Novorossiysk. IMHO
        And, purely human, there was nothing for Prince Borghese to do, but to run into new troubles, the war and his prison, so clever, didn’t they teach anything, didn’t they grow up ?! I do not want to study the biographical twists and personality structure of this Italian hero, but I recommend it to those who are seriously studying the topic. wink
        By the way, the question to the historians of the special forces, what kind of perturbations the Soviet Army and Navy suffered, and their special forces during this period of our Soviet era ?!


        Italian combat swimmers were not bad at WWII. And in WWII too. And if this is really their "work", then I will not be very surprised.
        1. +1
          21 July 2018 16: 29
          hi Comrade NF68, why wonder if there was a complete “Shukshin-style brothelier” in the bay, even judging by the officially recorded violations of the water protection service ?!
          The version of the “Italian combat swimmers” is already a traditional, ancient version of those events, occupying a well-deserved second place after the official “random mine”! Without it, the other versions somehow fade, become boring! Yes
          Sincerely.
          1. +1
            21 July 2018 20: 42
            Quote: pishchak
            hi Comrade NF68, why wonder if there was a complete “Shukshin-style brothelier” in the bay, even judging by the officially recorded violations of the water protection service ?!
            The version of the “Italian combat swimmers” is already a traditional, ancient version of those events, occupying a well-deserved second place after the official “random mine”! Without it, the other versions somehow fade, become boring! Yes
            Sincerely.


            However, it is not worth completely denying Italian participation. In a "random" mine, and even "accidentally" exploded in the right place, it is somehow hard to believe. At the expense of the mess when guarding, I think that in this case it could be. Moreover, there are many references to this. In principle, the fact that the Novorossiysk could have been undermined by the GRU specialists, I also cannot disagree with this, but again, for the guys from Italy with their hot blood, the Novorossiysk was like an eyesore and it is quite possible that in the USSR after the death of Novorossiysk, the arrows were transferred to Italians, and Admiral Kuznetsov Zhukov removed from office.
            1. +1
              21 July 2018 23: 10
              hi In "hot blood" where cold calculation and iron endurance is required, I believe the least, Comrade NF68!
              In the "random mine", waiting for many years in the right place, and then "accidentally exploded" TWICE, really little to believe! Yes Therefore, the official results of the "investigation" look doubtful.
              The abbreviation GRU has become fashionable, a kind of demonic, bugbear after the books of Rezun-Suvorov, it is now mentioned where it is necessary and where it is not necessary ?! request Heroic scout guys probably read and laugh such naivety ?! winked
              It’s just that some experts in dark affairs could carry out such a criminal order and they hardly had anything to do with the GRU.
              What struck me most (after reading the Articles and comments), all these years passing by my mind, was the thought that nonhumans, who had laid explosives under the battleship, were aiming at the artillery cellar of the GK towers (were there any nuclear "special munitions" on board ??? ) and the Sevastopol apocalypse could well have happened with the destruction of the neighboring large ships of the KChF, thousands of people on ships and ashore could have died overnight ?! In the name of what, for the triumph of whose interests ?!
              I personally would very much like the investigation on this explosion to be resumed and carried out with all seriousness and that the names of the bastards ... imported, domestic or domestic, guilty of this tragedy should be named bluntly!
              In principle, when humanity learns (and this, I am sure, sooner or later, it will happen!), With at least 60% certainty, to read the general information field that penetrates us, then there will be no problem establishing the actual course of past events. But it is in the future! Yes
              I emphasize once again that I do not insist on the version of the explosion that I put forward, it would be much easier for me to assume that it is the fruit of my developed imagination and, probably, an underlying propensity for conspiracy theories, but has nothing to do with reality ?!
              Sincerely.
              1. +2
                22 July 2018 01: 12
                Quote: pishchak
                were there any nuclear "special munitions" on board ???

                I’m disappointed. By the way, a nuclear weapon from an external explosion cannot detonate :)))))
                1. +1
                  22 July 2018 08: 22
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Quote: pishchak
                  were there any nuclear "special munitions" on board ???

                  I’m disappointed. By the way, a nuclear weapon from an external explosion cannot detonate :)))))

                  hi Thank you for clarification, Comrade Andrei from Chelyabinsk!
                  Not at all disappointed! He knew that, it seemed, there wasn’t, although work on the creation was underway (it was the caliber of the GK of the Italian battleship that, in contrast to the 305-mm GK of the old Soviet LCs, “squeezed” the special warhead at the “element base” of that time into the shell) but, but what if someone knows more and wants to share their knowledge ?!
                  Indeed, hypothetically, the presence of “special ammunition” in the ammunition complex, that is, the Soviet Union’s naval armaments reaching a qualitatively new level, could have caused foreign sabotage with the goal of casting back nuclear weapons of this type ?!
                  PS By the way, at first, the “layer of silt”, now “will not be detonated from an external explosion” -Comrade Andrei from Chelyabinsk, Chesslovo, do you, arrogantly, consider your colleagues on the VO site to be so incompetent, not even knowing elementary ?! smile
                  1. +1
                    22 July 2018 10: 31
                    Quote: pishchak
                    He knew that, it seemed, there wasn’t, although work on the creation was underway (it was the caliber of the GK of the Italian battleship that, in contrast to the 305-mm GK of the old Soviet LKs, “squeezed” the special warhead

                    Only now we still had 305-mm atomic ammunition :)))
                    Quote: pishchak
                    PS By the way, at first, the “layer of silt”, now “will not be detonated from an external explosion” -Comrade Andrei from Chelyabinsk, Chesslovo, do you, arrogantly, consider your colleagues on the VO site to be so incompetent, not even knowing elementary ?!

                    Well, you didn’t explain how you are going to search for mines in the silt, and how else would you order to understand your words about the local apocalypse?
                    1. +1
                      22 July 2018 22: 19
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Quote: pishchak
                      He knew that, it seemed, there wasn’t, although work on the creation was underway (it was the caliber of the GK of the Italian battleship that, in contrast to the 305-mm GK of the old Soviet LKs, “squeezed” the special warhead

                      Only now we still had 305-mm atomic ammunition :)))
                      Quote: pishchak
                      PS By the way, at first, the “layer of silt”, now “will not be detonated from an external explosion” -Comrade Andrei from Chelyabinsk, Chesslovo, do you, arrogantly, consider your colleagues on the VO site to be so incompetent, not even knowing elementary ?!

                      Well, you didn’t explain how you are going to search for mines in the silt, and how else would you order to understand your words about the local apocalypse?

                      Comrade Andrei from Chelyabinsk, but what is incomprehensible to you about the local apocalypse ?! Have you carefully read the Article ??? smile If the artillery cellar of the GK LK had exploded, then neighboring ships, to put it mildly, would not have been greeted, as well as the surroundings of the Sevastopol bay!
                      In the history of the Fleet, which you, according to your own writings, “took a long time (didn’t you answer how long?”), Because such cases are known (but not to you? smile )!
                      Again, I don’t understand the “questions” of a connoisseur like you for a long time (now I doubt it Yes ) "Fleet history" regarding trawling and search at the bottom of sea mines ?! smile To you, as a "connoisseur" and an obvious bookworm, my amateurish question is: "But how did these bottom mines be found in the Sevastopol Bay during its clearance during the defense of Sevastopol from the Nazis and after its liberation, up to our time?"
                      If your style of discussion is likened to yours, Comrade Andrey from Chelyabinsk, then I “literally” answer you that I’m not at all “going to look for mines in the silt” and I am not “ordering” anyone! You asked me "disappointed" whether I am ?! smile
                      I will answer honestly that, despite the great life experience, as well as the experience of working with people, I have not yet been disappointed in people and I always think about them better than they possibly are. So I’m probably not disappointed with you — it would be said loudly, rather — surprised by your scale request thinking and dull predictability (my passage about 305mm shells was a “control flea”, because any near-war “techie” understood that the difference in the 15 mm caliber in the design of the “special ammunition” didn’t solve anything, that's purely out of interest, I already had it it’s clear and understandable with you, but I wanted to make sure again that I’ll “bite” on an obvious fraud and you’ll be “self-asserting” mellow or not ?! wink ) for the "Navy historian" Yes ! Well, we had a good chat, I call it "reconnaissance battle" to find out a person, whether he is who he claims to be and what his potential is.
                      All the best to you, Andrey from Chelyabinsk!
              2. +1
                22 July 2018 15: 34
                Quote: pishchak
                In "hot blood" where cold calculation and iron endurance is required, I believe the least, Comrade NF68!


                But in reality during the years of WWII and WWII, Italian combat swimmers did not demonstrate their abilities by sinking the Austrian battleship Viribus Unitis and thoroughly damaging the British battleships Valient and Queen Elizabeth? And their hot blood was not a hindrance?
                1. +1
                  22 July 2018 20: 48
                  Quote: NF68
                  Quote: pishchak
                  In "hot blood" where cold calculation and iron endurance is required, I believe the least, Comrade NF68!


                  But in reality during the years of WWII and WWII, Italian combat swimmers did not demonstrate their abilities by sinking the Austrian battleship Viribus Unitis and thoroughly damaging the British battleships Valient and Queen Elizabeth? And their hot blood was not a hindrance?

                  hi Comrade NF68, "hot blood" - in terms of a surge of emotions, like all southerners, to whom I consider myself! Yes
                  My native Belarusians, visiting me, were told that they didn’t understand how we could scream and call each other names, and after 5 minutes, as if nothing had happened to continue the conversation among ourselves, because: “... we would then be a month didn't talk to each other! " request
                  I somehow have a poor idea of ​​such a serious diversion committed “on the road” by a group of MAS veteran enthusiasts on emotions (albeit the most patriotic ones), and even in peacetime ?!
                  1. 0
                    23 July 2018 17: 11
                    I somehow have a poor idea of ​​such a serious diversion committed “on the road” by a group of MAS veteran enthusiasts on emotions (albeit the most patriotic ones), and even in peacetime ?!


                    The Austrians in WWI and the British in WWII didn’t just imagine all this seriously, they really experienced it in their own skins and judging by the results of the activities of Italian combat swimmers, the Austrians and the British did not really like it. As for peacetime, here I cannot but take into account your weighty argument, however, peacetime has also happened a lot.
  13. +1
    19 July 2018 18: 34
    Let the author not be offended, but he hastened with the statement: “the most powerful ship of the Soviet navy. But then, how are the battleships: Marat and the Paris Commune - scows?
    The author contradicts himself: he speaks of the most powerful ship, and then it turns out that ZA was so-so there and according to the living conditions of the team, it lagged even before the pre-revolutionary ships
    Another wish to the moderators: at least you look, otherwise two articles on the same topic and during the crescent are not very good
    1. 0
      27 July 2018 16: 36
      Let the author not be offended, but he hastened with the statement: “the most powerful ship of the Soviet navy. But then, how are the battleships: Marat and the Paris Commune - scows?


      GC Novorossiysk will be more powerful than that of Marat or the Paris Commune. All the same, the weight of the armor-piercing projectile 525 kg. against 471 kg. at an initial speed of 830 m / s. against 762 m / s Although the Italian has fewer trunks on 2, the Italian GK is still more powerful. The truth about the spread of shells in a salvo from the Italian is not all clear.
  14. +2
    19 July 2018 18: 50
    Viktor Aleksandrovich Parkhomenko of course "nadmiralil"
  15. +2
    19 July 2018 20: 47
    First: Why put a photo of American Arizona lx after the explosion in Pearl Harbor?
    Secondly: there is a book by B.A. Korzhavin "The mystery of the death of the battleship" Novorossiysk "(1991 St. Petersburg ed. Polytechnic) - a very complete study
  16. +3
    19 July 2018 21: 31
    It looks like he was blown up. But the Italians had nothing to do with it - at this very time in Italy there was a political mess, there was simply no one to give orders for such sabotage, and these swimmers themselves were not able to produce such an action that they would not later tell in taverns. Here England - could well afford it.
    1. +1
      19 July 2018 23: 40
      hi Comrade Aviator, you have correctly described everything about Italy and Borghese, but the Novorossiysk shouts could hardly threaten the Mediterranean and Bosphorus-Dardanelian interests of the Novorossiysk shells, especially since the post-war peak of the popularity of the Communist Parties in the Roosevelt-Stalin-Churchill agreed The Anglo-Mediterranean “zone of influence” began to decline (never supported by the Soviet Union, weakened by military losses and “holy observing the Yalta agreements”).
      Yes, and this battleship could not particularly interfere with the "revolutionary expansion (at the peak of the collapse of the Stalinist paradigm of management of the" fraternal countries of people's democracy ") of" universal values ​​", although it was the largest and most powerful, landing & artillery support ship of the Soviet Navy ?!
      Most likely, IMHO, they “allowed themselves” the CRIME PROVOCATION, in the struggle for power and influence, “their own” —the sinking and snickering Soviet “figures” ..
      PS In the process of discussing Articles and pondering my own comments, I associatively flashed a "crazy assumption" - was the Kursk explosion a criminal act of the same kind, a "setup" from the influential "figures of the" new Russia "and their American patrons, dissatisfied with the Yeltsin’s successor, who had developed an “unpredictable” activity (after all, many of the “new Russian” offspring “warmed up by the Yeltsin Family” in their then “offended” interviews openly scolded the GDP of his “KGB past,” understanding the interest in them “not quite patriotic directed "affairs ?! today I accidentally (chance is not accidental ?!))) caught the eye of a similar" passage "of one Russian" business woman "in the old issue of the Belarusian liberoid newspaper smile ), because, retrospectively, from the side, such intentions to substitute the “fledgling president” are very visible ?! Or is it impossible to talk about this until the majority of witnesses and those involved have died ?!
      1. +3
        19 July 2018 23: 48
        Quote: pishchak
        Most likely, IMHO, they “allowed themselves” the CRIME PROVOCATION, in the struggle for power and influence, “their own” —the sinking and snickering Soviet “figures” ..

        This version is perfect, well, it’s just absolutely pointless and absurd, therefore, there’s no point in considering it. Oh, at least because of the complete technical unrealizability
        1. +1
          20 July 2018 00: 17
          hi Comrade Andrei from Chelyabinsk, I appreciate your unconditional authority and extensive knowledge of naval topics that has been demonstrated many times good !
          But is it technically feasible to “pull up the anchor” and “launch” the fuse’s clock mechanism from a fully discharged one (after all, all the studies found after the Novorossiysk explosion, with careful examination by divers of the Sevastopol Bay, German bottom mines showed that the remaining energy supply is completely insufficient for working capacity time (about the presence of a chemical fuse in this type of mine never heard, but maybe it was a special, experimental, mine ?!) mine mechanism ?!) galvanic battery ?!
          Why "complete technical unrealizability" ?! It is both quite technically feasible and organizationally (after all, even the fleet was removed for training, so as not to interfere with the implementation of the intended sabotage ?!) and in comprehensive cover for such an operation with the creation of false premises (an open boom network, for example) and the mass elimination of the involved and witnesses, explicit and imaginary (all problems are eliminated and overcome if dictated by "political expediency" and "interests of the country" Yes request ).
          Sincerely.
          1. +7
            20 July 2018 07: 25
            Quote: pishchak
            Why "complete technical unrealizability" ?!

            In order to carry out the detonation, professional underwater saboteurs will be needed, which need to be prepared for more than one year. The Italians have been doing this since 1939, by the way. We had such pros - this is a special-purpose company (RON), created in 1941, but there is a nuance - it was created at the Baltic Fleet intelligence department, that is, it was subordinate to the Navy’s narcotics, and if it had played in such "games", then on the side fleet, not Marshal Zhukov, and whom you still entered into this conspiracy. That is, it was simply impossible to engage these guys in a non-naval structure - they would burn up when trying to recruit, and this is the end. Nobody would do that.
            And to create such "people of frogs" from scratch ... We need a base. We need personnel (in the RON we recruited the best divers). Need a teacher. In general, all this can be done, but this cannot be done SECRETLY, the rest of the participants in the sub-cover would have been well aware that the land needed combat swimmers and that they were preparing them.
            Further. Just experienced divers are few - you need more equipment. This is a mine, this is a mini-submarine or some other conveyor, because you cannot drag a ton of explosives on your hump. Again - all this can be done in the USSR, but this cannot be done secretly from all by any separate land structure during the course of undercover intrigues. But just do little, you still have to practice the application, and where to do it?
            And finally - the issue of penetrating the fleet base. We now know that there was enough sloppiness, but how about the land, which is not "reported" to understand?
            In general, to prepare such a sabotage, it was necessary to notify about it not even hundreds, but probably about a thousand people. And such large-scale preparations do not fit into any covert game at all - it’s too difficult and too easy to burn.
            In general, understand correctly. Secretive penetration into the fleet base and even with such diversion on the shoulder only to professionals of the naval war, provided with the appropriate equipment. And the same Zhukov all this was completely nowhere to take. But it would be extremely easy to burn, trying to prepare and crank up such a diversion
            1. +1
              20 July 2018 10: 37
              hi Honestly, Comrade Andrei from Chelyabinsk, you were given Marshal Zhukov — I didn’t “fit in” the conspiracy conspiracy in the struggle for power, he “blended” himself and participated well, at least you won’t deny this ?!
              Is it possible that the conditionally “Khrushchev-Zhukovsky” group, fighting for all-Union dominance, included only representatives of the ground forces, because the Kuznetsov’s strategic concept of “access to the ocean’s expanses” had its opponents in the Navy too, not so simple! Yes
              After the end of the war, the authorities even dispossessed professionals of the sea (air, land) war and threw out, as already unnecessary, used piece of paper, hence the growth of post-war banditry by the hands of former front-line soldiers and partisans, by the way, the eldest of the Tolstopyatov brothers in Rostov was a prime example (he began to bandit probably also immediately after the war, but then the "organs" did not catch him ?!).
              Sabotage is, first of all, psychology, because people are important - “tools”, and then everything else, equipment and organization!
              In the same way as now, then it was possible to find among veterans (and current employees of law enforcement agencies) unprincipled professionals ready for everything and I think that they were looked after in advance, even during the war, because there existed, for example, "Department D "who dealt with the elimination of traitors around the world ?!
              Do you really think that it was a big problem to supply such people with imported diving equipment, even if there were no corresponding military trophies left in the Crimea, Germany, Austria, Hungary or Romania ?! And it was even desirable to supply it with imported equipment, and not domestic, in such and such situations! After all, one could always imagine the corpse of such a saboteur as the body of an “enemy combat swimmer” (pericordial “missions” always selected performers with the appearance of the appropriate type to “merge with the local background” Yes ) And German bottom mines were full in the Sevastopol bay itself (in 2018, in preparation for the beach season, they found and defused another one of the same ?!) it was enough to “pull” and “tie” them to the right place wink .
              It is possible (and the higher the commander, the more opportunities he has) of service people to use blindly, under the guise of performing a "training task", when only the command knows the true goals, and then the performers are quietly "removed" either with a "shot by negligence", then "car accident", then "technology failure" ...- military service involves such accidents.
              And it’s not at all a problem to hide the corpses of “silenced” saboteurs among the mass of disfigured bodies of the victims of the explosion and flooding of the battleship that sailed across the Sevastopol Bay even a month later, not to mention those remaining on the sunken ship ... recall the Chesterton story “Broken Sword” when the old general, in order to hide the corpse of the young officer killed by him, the lover of his wife, started a priori losing battle and blocked the whole battlefield with the dead bodies of his own soldiers and officers ?!
              The necessary explosives could be delivered in different ways (in the books about Novorossiysk there are also mentioned the scraps of some rusty barge found at the explosion site ?!) under the guise of any work, especially since the place of the planned explosion (as I understand it, it’s on it , already prepared, and put the flagship that came from the exercises, unlike the usual parking place ?!) and the dimensions of the ship were well known (not the saboteurs' fault that the battleship, fortunately, didn’t fit into the explosion scheme and the detonation of the GK cellars occurred).
              The alleged goals of undermining Novorossiysk were achieved, in fact, rivals in the struggle for power were compromised "in the eyes of the public" and far removed from the helm of the government, and the influence of the government and the money of the Ministry of Defense were aimed at the predominant development of land directions with a "missile bias" and the concept of the ocean fleet, as suggested by N.G. Kuznetsov, was postponed “until better times” —for the Soviet Navy, the dark Khrushchev era came ... he received the GKZh by his karma.
              This is just a probable version, one of many, comrade Andrei from Chelyabinsk, and we probably won’t find out the truth ?!
              Although the persistent, ten-year-old desire of the Soviet authorities to erase the memory and all traces of this tragedy of an all-Union scale, just give rise to such "uncomfortable versions", as well as "bad thoughts" ?! Yes
              Sincerely.
              1. +1
                20 July 2018 15: 02
                A group of engineers comes from the top secret institute number 0113 to test the latest electronic equipment, with documents and five heavy containers. Everything is absolutely secret. They are given a vessel for testing - the size of a port tug. Everything is so secret (the latest technology!) That even sailors from a tugboat are replaced with those brought in.
                Five heavy containers are loaded onto a tugboat, and the tugboat goes into the sea --- passing, by sheer chance, over the usual parking lot of the LC (which just coincided accidentally at sea in exercises). The tugboat leaves, then, after 3 days, returns. All the same containers are unloaded from it and taken back to institute 0113. The fleet command has not been notified of the test results - but it can be seen from the engineers' faces that the results are not the best.

                And a month later, suddenly .... BOOM. Under the keel of the LC. A completely random coincidence.

                And no one even soaked their feet, and no one climbed into the water ... Why should we get into the water if we have certificates with seals?
                1. +3
                  20 July 2018 17: 52
                  Quote: AK64
                  A group of engineers comes from the top secret institute number 0113 to test the latest electronic equipment, with documents and five heavy containers. Everything is absolutely secret

                  James Bond revised?
                  1) Zhukov, by his authority, absolutely secretly creates an absolutely secret institute for the development of absolutely secret underwater equipment, recruits people there, provides financing, equips test ranges ... Do you even understand what this is?
                  2) Option two - Zhukov transfers the development to one of the existing design bureaus. That's it, the scheme has ceased to be secret.
                  Quote: AK64
                  Five heavy containers are loaded onto a tugboat, and the tugboat goes to sea --- passing, by sheer chance, over the usual parking lot of the LC

                  After that, the komflot, furious from the fact that some land creatures do not understand that it sends in its base to understand the place of divers and ... that's it.
                  1. +1
                    20 July 2018 20: 54
                    After that, the komflot, furious from the fact that some land creatures do not understand that it sends in its base to understand the place of divers and ... that's it.


                    So Sent. AFTER BOOM and sent. And they found what was supposed to be --- funnels from TWO large BOOMS.

                    1) Zhukov, by his authority, absolutely secretly creates an absolutely secret institute for the development of absolutely secret underwater equipment, recruits people there, provides financing, equips test ranges ... Do you even understand what this is?
                    2) Option two - Zhukov transfers the development to one of the existing design bureaus. That's it, the scheme has ceased to be secret.


                    Oh yes stop it: well, Kuznetsov perfectly understands who and what did to him. So what? What will he do? He’ll run to the newspapers with the statement “this same Zhukov LK blew up!” Well, they’ll send them to a psychiatric hospital, and that’s all. Do you think this is AK64, 70 years later, the first to realize hu from hu? Well, well ... Everyone and everyone understood everything right away.

                    That’s the meanness of politics that wins the most vile of politics. And therefore, the opponents of Khrushchev had no chance.

                    Bottom mines naturally were not a secret. And even more so were not a secret for sailors. So what? Institute 0113 with stupid containers is just cover papers for the GRU group. And there may be no institute. And maybe there is - but these people are not there. Or even people are - but they have different faces. Run and check if there are people or not.

                    And the containers are that: the containers were both brought and taken away. The containers are heavy, secret. And what is INSIDE - who knows? And that containers a little easier ... And who weighed them? What is heavy is for sure: tons and a half.

                    And such methods with a dozen can be composed in half an hour. (That is, it is possible for me - not for you. You most likely will not succeed. But AK64 is very inventive)
                    1. +1
                      20 July 2018 21: 47
                      Quote: AK64
                      And such methods with a dozen can be written in half an hour

                      True :))) But their value is an absolute zero. Your method is not too good even for a Hollywood action movie, but an attempt to do this on a real military base will end very badly
                      Quote: AK64
                      So Sent. AFTER BOOM and sent.

                      You seem to have no idea about some of the features of military service.
                      Quote: AK64
                      Everything is absolutely secret

                      This does not happen :))) There are no secrets from comflot in the sea trials test (I’m talking about comflot, not even a people's commissar). That is, either admission is signed by the naval authorities, or "top secret" go ... by the forest. And if they show absolutely breathtaking crusts (I can’t even imagine which ones), then the navy will follow them very closely, because in the end the Sailors are responsible for the base and no one will ever accept the excuse "and I’ve got very top secret sports guys". So all the actions of your group will be strictly controlled, and if God forbid they drop something into the water, the navy will immediately get it and return it as “secret” as it was.
                      In addition, these "secret" in any case will go through all the naval documents and then to the "secret", if something happens, there will be a lot of questions
                      But you continue to fantasize further. For example, kamikaze guinea pigs are a very interesting version. laughing
                      1. +1
                        21 July 2018 10: 38
                        I will not continue to procrastinate this topic with you, it is not interesting to me. You have no arguments not only against AK64 --- you do not even have them against Saprykin’s bone. All your arguments: "yes it is impossible!". While this is only possible.

                        The Italians --- this is the most complete fantasy: the Italians have neither a motive (the motive that is offered is some kind of craziness), nor opportunities.
                        German Mines .... Well, that’s exactly the mines that were, and even TWO mines --- they were not installed by the Germans or during the war. And those of war time .... the probability of such an explosion, and TWO mines at once (I'm talking about the second explosion) .... The probability of such an event is the same as meeting a dinosaur on Tverskaya.

                        And here are two mines laid by simple guys from the GRU, especially at the parking lot of this LC (in extreme cases, if they changed the parking lot, another karap would have fit) --- this is an obvious probability.
                        Motive: here it is.
                        Opportunity? All the power of the state is.
                        What is left against it? Ah, ethical motives, "it’s not good to blow up ...." So LK is a white elephant, one harm from it. And the victims ... so there would be no victims if the sailors acted correctly.
                        And then say: to look at least for the rudiments of morality and conscience in Khrushchev with the Bug - this is a completely thankless task. So that...

                        What is left against it? Never mind.

                        And FOR?
                        TWO bang. This is important: laid two mines in order to increase the probability. It would be better if there were four at all - but then it would have become clear to everyone that the whole area around was specially mined. And de --- you can still somehow attribute it to chance.
                        The second explosion ... That's right --- eliminated the evidence at the bottom. It was necessary to blow up all the installed mines (that is, both). Therefore, the second explosion aside (they mined a place and not a scaffold!) And later (mines are clearly controlled).

                        All evidence for the version of the deliberately mined parking lot of the LC (but not of the LC itself, namely the place)

                        But, I repeat, I will not speak further on this subject: it is not interesting to me to chew the same urine.
                  2. -1
                    22 August 2018 16: 41
                    The reason for the resignation of Zhukov was the formation of special forces units for sabotage and reconnaissance undertaken by the Minister without the knowledge of the Presidium. Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev suspected a marshal popular among officers in preparing a coup. This happened in 1957 .. Intelligence and counterintelligence did not obey Zhukov ... Each of his sneezers was controlled .. Zhukov could not do anything ... A small local sabotage group can do this .. At the * barrel * to which the ship is moored, day day after day * dump * small magnetic mines from which then * form * a large mine ... But it is long and how many such mines are needed and it is doubtful that the Battleship * will keep the barrel * .. although it could anchor at the barrel .. And did he have a place in the port? .. Well, they could not mine it from their art. cellars .. it's all f fantasy .. but torpedo
              2. +2
                20 July 2018 15: 07
                Quote: pishchak
                Sabotage is, first of all, psychology, because people are important - “tools”, and then everything else, equipment and organization!

                Not in this case. I repeat, you underestimate the complexity of underwater sabotage.
                Quote: pishchak
                Do you really think that it was a big problem to supply such people with imported diving equipment, even if there were no corresponding military trophies left in the Crimea, Germany, Austria, Hungary or Romania ?!

                If by import equipment you mean scuba gear, then this is not necessary, your own is enough. If by import equipment you mean mines and towing vehicles, then you will not find such imported equipment in the public domain. And not free - either.
                Quote: pishchak
                the ship’s dimensions were well known (it’s not the saboteurs' fault that the battleship, fortunately, didn’t fit into the blast scheme a bit and there was no detonation of the GK cellars).

                Do not you know that the battleship Novorossiysk was not in its place? And what, actually, was Sevastopol supposed to be there? And what is "a little" strange to prepare a diversion to destroy Novorossiysk at the site of Sevastopol’s parking?
                Quote: pishchak
                in fact, rivals in the struggle for power were compromised "in the eyes of the public"

                What kind of public? The death of Novorossiysk was not widely publicized, it was retouched as best they could
                Quote: pishchak
                in fact, rivals in the struggle for power were compromised "in the eyes of the public" and far removed from the helm of power, and the influence of the government and the funds of the Ministry of Defense were aimed at the predominant development of land directions with a "missile bias" and the concept of the ocean fleet, as it was supposed and suggested N.G. Kuznetsov, was set aside "until better times"

                In fact, the concept of an ocean surface fleet was set aside to better times immediately after the death of Stalin, with the advent of Khrushchev. And ocean submarines baked like pies before Kuznetsov’s resignation, and after
                1. +2
                  20 July 2018 20: 32
                  hi Dear comrade Andrei from Chelyabinsk, the implementation of underwater sabotage, of course, is a complicated matter and I do not argue with this at all! But by no means impossible, is that so ?! Yes
                  As I wrote above, do you yourself know that at the bottom of the Sevastopol Bay in 1955 there were still a sufficient number of German bottom mines, maybe even some of them lay near the future parking of the battleship? Therefore, there was a need to rearrange the intended target to another barrel (and it doesn’t seem "strange" to me at all, because the "official version of the" subsequent "investigation" was then built precisely on this rearrangement and supposedly "pulling-up the initiation of a mine fuse", and, you must agree , it would be much “weirder” if the battleship exploded in its usual parking lot, then the sabotage version would become key and the probable instigators would have to do something with this “egregious fact”, present some more weighty evidence of “outrageous intervention” "to" turn arrows "and confuse the tracks ?! Yes By the way, do you seriously think that such operations are carried out spontaneously, without careful preparation of backup options and the development of “cover” methods ?! smile ) not where the Novorossiysk usually moored ?!
                  The answer to your question is that on the night of the explosion, the battleship was not in its “place” - this is the key moment of the official version of the explosion, known to many who are in the subject, and not just “know” me and you!
                  I don’t see any difficulties with the “laid down” swathing of divers at the parking place, if it would be necessary, because the work, albeit not so intense, is being carried out to clear and clear the Sevastopol Bay even in our time! Yes
                  Including, no submarine towing vessels are needed if it was possible to pre-transport the port vessel from those that provided, having landed moving mines under the bottom of a half-flooded barge suitable for displacement (which scraps were later found at the site of the explosion?), So that they could only move slightly above the bottom of the bay , and then sling off the barge itself in the right place or drown it (apparently raised somewhere near the bottom, like a “training task” for military divers, an unaccounted for “drowned woman” from the war ?!) and now the mines fell to the bottom, and the rusty barge they were covered from above by random indiscreet eyes (patrol combat swimmers performing on-duty inspection of parking places?), and further, preparation of warheads for undermining. The depths are shallow and long-term operation in light-diving equipment is possible.
                  The public is, first of all, the flagship naval officers, numerous naval commanders and naval specialists of the largest Black Sea naval base of the Soviet Union and members of their families who also live, vollens-nolens, the affairs of the fleet, and almost all Sevastopol residents, one way or another , "they are boiling in this boiler (they also gathered together in the troubled days of 2014 at Nakhimov Square, at the Main Headquarters of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation!)" and they know many "secret aspects" of the KChF’s activity, therefore they didn’t let everyone who wished to enter Soviet Sevastopol!
                  You want to say, Andrei, that in Sevastopol the rumor of people did not discuss the tragedy of Novorossiysk, right in the center of the city and in front of thousands of citizens, how can this be "retouched" from so many eyewitnesses ?! winked
                  Everyone in the army and navy knows well that any emergency does not go unpunished! And the more catastrophic the incident, the greater the number of large stars "scattered" inevitable "commission from Moscow!"
                  Therefore, the entire naval and near-naval community and the local party activist of the city of Union subordination became morally prepared for the subsequent change of command and punishments, which would not have happened if the Novorossiysk explosion and death had not happened, then it would have been “presented” to be “unreasonable!” and would cause rumors and unnecessary "fermentation among the masses" of naval specialists such as, "And for what they were removed? !!"
                  In the same way, to “justify” the deposition of the patriotic and too “interfering” Judas — the Minister of Defense Marshal of the Soviet Union S. L. Sokolov and his entourage, the “general people”, they sent directly to the Border Guard Day (to heighten “public resonance”) to help Gorbachev and his gang “flagrant violation of the border with the defiant landing of the intruder’s plane on Red Square (under pre-prepared bodies and cameras)” in the person of supposedly “air hooligan” Matias Rust, with the same “organizational conclusions” for displacement from all posts and the appointment of tame generals, obligated by their appointment only to the judo-secretary and ready to unquestioningly carry out any instructions of the party-economic group that seized power, conditionally, "Gorbachev".
                  The deposed flagship of the USSR Navy Admiral of the Fleet N.G. Kuznetsov had large-scale plans and influential friends in the upper echelons of Soviet power — he was not just a naval strategist, but an integral part of a large group that competed with the Zhukohrushchev group — you, Andrei, as then you think linearly and sequentially, somehow in a holistically and non-invariant way, constantly stop at something and don’t imagine ways to get around these imaginary obstacles — it’s clear that sabotage and other adventures, which sometimes require instant improvisation and daring arrogance on the verge of a foul, they don’t correspond to your type of thinking, just didn’t understand that people, their fighting qualities and moral and psychological state, in this matter the most important thing is everything else is secondary (in the end, you could just get on a ship and detonate the GK- artillery shell from the inside I think that such an option was worked out, as well as the "version of the investigation" in this case ?!) ?!
                  It seems to me (from your own comments) that you do not grasp the general picture in the context of that external and internal situation and “trends” of that time, I got this impression, maybe it’s erroneous ??!
                  I do not insist on my version of the death of Novorossiysk, but since we are discussing the "version", then such an "unthinkable" also deserves to be presented to the "wide public" of our narrow circle of readers and commentators. IMHO
                  Sincerely.
                  1. +2
                    20 July 2018 22: 50
                    Quote: pishchak
                    I do not insist on my version of the death of Novorossiysk, but since we are discussing the "version", then such an "unthinkable" also deserves to be presented to the "wide public" of our narrow circle of readers and commentators

                    This is certainly true. As Comrade Voltaire used to say, "For your opinion, I am ready to cut your throat, but for your right to express it I will give my life"
                    Quote: pishchak
                    As I wrote above, do you yourself know that at the bottom of the Sevastopol Bay in 1955 there were still a sufficient number of German bottom mines, maybe even some of them lay near the future parking of the battleship?

                    Of course they were - a lot of them were found there.
                    Quote: pishchak
                    and, you see, it would be much “weirder” if the battleship exploded in its usual parking lot

                    Absolutely not. Mina - it’s a mine and is, a small object, if it no longer responds to nearby iron, you can drop an anchor about it 100 times, but for the first hundred ...
                    Quote: pishchak
                    I don’t see any difficulties with the “routine” swarming of divers at the parking place, if it would be necessary

                    So after all, the fleet has its own divers and its own services that control such matters. Therefore, there is not a single reasonable reason why divers of another department will climb the bottom of the fleet base. Who will give them?
                    Even if, in the end, permission is obtained, it’s only during a large interagency squabble that will be remembered immediately after the demolition of the battleship. Was it? No. So, I'm sorry, and there was no sabotage
                    Quote: pishchak
                    Including, no submarine towing vessels are needed if it was possible to pre-transport the port vessel from the ones providing, by slinging the transported mines under the bottom

                    Well, if you first put it on the dock in order to mount all the equipment, then probably yes :)))) Well, do not do it on the knee :)))) You will bring a mine to the territory of the military base? :)) How unload on the pier? How will you lower it into the water, how to sling it? :))) Everyone is in sight? :)))) 1200 kg of explosives! :))))
                    Quote: pishchak
                    and then sling off the barge itself in the right place or drown it (apparently raised somewhere near the bottom, like a "training task" to military divers, an unaccounted for "drowned woman" from the war ?!) and now the mines fell to the bottom, and their rusty barge on top of you

                    Such feats on the site of the warships are impossible. immediately rush to understand who dragged the barge, and find out what was on it.
                    Quote: pishchak
                    You want to say, Andrei, that in Sevastopol, human rumor did not discuss what happened, right in the center of the city and in front of thousands of citizens

                    Discussed. But the fact is that such "human rumor" did not help at all and did not interfere with removing Kuznetsov - for the undercover games that she is, that she is not
                    Therefore, there was no sense in planting it, this rumor.
                    Quote: pishchak
                    Therefore, the entire naval and near-naval community and the local party activist of the city of Union subordination became morally ready for the subsequent change of command

                    You see, for Kuznetsov it was already the second opal. He first came in January 1947 when he flew from the post of commander-in-chief - and no rumor was needed for this, there were enough disagreements with Stalin.
                    Quote: pishchak
                    The deposed flagship of the Soviet Navy, Admiral of the Fleet N.G. Kuznetsov, had large-scale plans and influential friends in the upper echelons of Soviet power — he was not just a naval strategist, but an integral part of a large group that competed with the Zhukohrushchev group

                    Let’s clarify :))))) Kuznetsov was smeared with dust by Vissarionych - not only was he removed from the post of commander in chief, but then he still went on trial (first, the court of honor) for transmitting secret information to the allies. Moreover, the remaining admirals (Galler Alafuzov Stepanov) were repressed - they went to places not so distant, and to Kuznetsov, although he was found guilty, they decided not to use corners and simply reduced the rank to rear admiral.
                    In other words, in the late 40s, the authority and “grouping” of Kuznetsov (that is, those who could support him) were practically destroyed, he became a political pariah and had no influence. And now attention, a question. Who pulled him out of this hole? The answer is none other than Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev. That is, it was Khrushchev who pulled Kuznetsov from the sidelines of history, returning him the title of commander in chief in 1953 ...
                    ... in order to blow up the battleship in 1955 and discredit it? :))))) Don't you find this behavior a bit strange? :)))))
                    If Khrushchev had seen any danger in Kuznetsov, he would simply not have returned it, and this was the end. He could easily rehabilitate him, assign a thread of a magnificent, but meaningless position and forget about him forever.
                    Quote: pishchak
                    it is obvious that sabotage and other adventures, which sometimes require instant improvisation and daring arrogance on the verge of a foul, do not correspond to your type of thinking, and they did not understand that people, their fighting qualities and moral and psychological state, in this matter the most important thing -everything else is secondary

                    I can only repeat - I have been studying the history of the Navy for a very long time, and believe me, no "moral-psychological" state will allow you to carry out your plan. The Chinese people at one time firmly believed that a special state of mind would make them invulnerable to bullets. The Japanese believed in the invincibility of "special" attacks, which are carried out by soldiers who have lost the sense of self-preservation (long before the kamikaze), which is characteristic - both were mistaken :))))
                    You do not understand that sabotage of such a level is NEVER an ADVENTURE, it is a very, very calculated plan and excellent preparation.
                    To make it easier for you, try to treat the patient with pulpitis, or, say, operate the patient on the heart without the education and experience of a doctor and based only on a high moral and psychological aspect. Or, let's say, do a good auto-training and put a person who does not know the rules of the road and never drove a car behind the wheel in rush hour in Moscow :)))) All of the above is MUCH simpler than the sabotage you invented :)))))
                    Quote: pishchak
                    in the end, you could just get on a ship and detonate the GK artillery shell from the inside

                    Try it at your leisure :))))) You arrive on the ship, the watchman meets you and inquires about the purpose of your visit. So, what is next?:)))
                    Quote: pishchak
                    It seems to me (from your own comments) that you do not grasp the general picture in the context of that external and internal situation

                    Well, if you grabbed it, then, of course, it would not be difficult for you to give the necessary explanations - it is short and clear, as I did a little higher in this comment.
                    1. +1
                      21 July 2018 13: 50
                      hi Dear Andrey from Chelyabinsk! I never doubt your long knowledge of the history of the Navy (but this hardly correlates with your "knowledge of psychology" ?! winked ), but the fact that you do not have "sabotage thinking" is already clearly visible to me, how obvious your mental "limiters" are, and I have no doubt about it Yes ! There is nothing bad or offensive in this, just innate, due to the dominant perception system, or well-acquired ways of processing information and a tendency in behavior, so you, it’s obvious to me from your answers, didn’t understand the meaning and did not even carefully read what I wrote above, but you are engaged in literal "perfectionism" (probably, according to a plan you have previously outlined, which is not a step away) and "stop" about unprincipled details, letting go of the essence, it is like "you can’t see the forest behind the trees" ?! Yes
                      Well, for example, you completely missed (I think that only from your own carelessness, although you formally agreed with the presence of German bottom mines in the water area) in your logical reasoning that these mines were ALREADY at the bottom of the bay and could even be in the area of ​​the battleship or nearby, and there was no need to raise them to the surface, and only LIFT OVER THE GROUND to be transported to the intended site of detonation!
                      To do this, it was not necessary to "dock" any floating floating port with a suitable carrying capacity! It was enough to strengthen, in any way (even by welding, underwater welding was well mastered!), On the underwater part of the craft several jacks to sprinkle and pull the bottom mine over the ground level. It was enough for this vessel to swim, under its own power or in tow, over the empty one (and at that time the Novorossiysk LC could stand in its usual place), for one reason or another, the site of the future "subversive" parking lot and dump its burden on the ground or “accidentally sink” along with it so that the divers can “justify” the diversion here officially — engaged investigators will try not to “attach importance” to this kind of activity, especially since such diving operations were carried out all over the bay and did not attract much attention - for example, it was possible to carry out "planned work to strengthen the anchor of the mooring barrel" or unscheduled smile what questions can be ?!
                      You, comrade Andrei, are somehow too straightforward (even, it seems to me, somewhat dogmatically?) To think and run into extremes — this is one of your “limiters”!
                      For example, I quote: “To make it easier for you, try to treat the patient with pulpitis, or, say, operate on the patient’s heart without a doctor’s education and experience and based only on a high moral and psychological aspect. Or, say, have a good autotraining and plant someone who doesn’t know traffic rules and a person who never drove a car behind the wheel in rush hour in Moscow :)))) All of the above is MUCH simpler than your sabotage :))))) "
                      Why do you consider "extremes" as a person "not knowing traffic rules and never driving a car", offering to send him behind the wheel at rush hour through the streets of Moscow ?! Is this your mental pattern in understanding "fighting qualities and moral and psychological state", that is, you, Andrei, are completely unaware of what this means in reality or intentionally exaggerate so? smile
                      And if you take an independent, bold, sensible, with a natural wit-cunning, to the best of the daring and inquisitive, not lost in dangerous life situations (namely, they try to select such people as scout saboteurs, who are by no means “kamikazes,” but very resourceful and persistent love of life by nature and belief! wink ) who knows the rules of the traffic rules well and has excellent driving skills as a professional driver from a small provincial town with low traffic and further work on his self-confidence, explaining in detail (with options for action in a particular typical and atypical situation) and intelligibly examining examples Peculiarities of Moscow traffic conditions during rush hour, and then send it to Moscow ?! What do you think will come of this, comrade Andrei?
                      The same with surgical skills! Have you ever heard of an operation to remove appendicitis from a doctor on a strategic submarine nuclear submarine on alert ?! How he was able to do it himself and prepared, not only theoretically, but also morally and psychologically, his own assistants from the crew. This is just an example. Each scout saboteur gets initial medical skills!
                      Admiral N.G. Kuznetsov is a symbol of the defeat of the fleet, perpetrated by the victorious group of N.S. Khrushchev, and you, leaving the essence of the fleet pogrom, breed a whole office with his biography, as if I could not, if I wanted to, read about him on the Web ?! smile So with him many more naval flagships flew off the posts, and you will paint their biographies, why ?!
                      It was possible to go to the LC and take the ladder, as you write, even if you noticed and replaced a suitable in appearance, returning from dismissal, moreman (it was in the evening, there were a lot of newcomers in a crowded crew, and it didn’t cost anyone to find out who is on duty at the linkorovsky ramp and who steers on a longboat that delivered sailors from shore to ship) it is possible even as swimmers and saboteurs or anti-terror services penetrate ships and ships, in addition, there should not have been any special problems with any Soviet documents necessary for legal passage to the ship, as well as with the "legend" of such a visit!
                      You are right that you agreed- "You do not understand that sabotage of such a level is NEVER an ADVENTURE, it is a very, very calculated plan and excellent preparation." with my "do you seriously think that such operations are carried out spontaneously, without careful preparation of backup options and the development of" cover "methods ?! smile"! Yes
                      And, of course, preparation by preparation, but even with the most thorough preparation, with the direct implementation of a planned operation, it is almost inevitable (especially in a combat situation!) That unplanned “overlays” arise, and for successful completion you have to improvise and “become impudent” on the fly, relying on intuition and even “courage” is precisely the fighting “human factor” that comes first, and in vain you, Andrei, are trying to scoff about it! IMHO
                      The explosion of “Novorossiysk” was the final answer of the Khrushchev’s “land detectives (who defended only the auxiliary role of the Navy)” in the discussion about the development paths of the Soviet Armed Forces, traditional artillerymen were turned around without explosions, but the tankers didn’t succeed, the Khrushchevs simply didn’t have time, although specific, gunless, "missile tanks", two regiments, were adopted.
                      You, comrade Andrei from Chelyabinsk, captive of the stereotypes of “black and white”, you probably didn’t understand, judging by your writings, that if the explosion of the Novorossiysk LC was prepared and carried out (and then “investigated”) by your own, then all official and semi-official stories and stories about him will be exactly as they are at present! We won’t find out the truth about the explosion of this LC, we can only build our own versions request .
                      I appreciate your adherence to Voltaire principles, comrade Andrey from Chelyabinsk good , I also try to stick to them.
                      Sincerely.
                      1. +1
                        21 July 2018 14: 54
                        Quote: pishchak
                        Well, for example, you completely missed (I think that only from your own carelessness, although you formally agreed with the presence of German bottom mines in the water area) in your logical reasoning that these mines were ALREADY at the bottom of the bay and could even be in the area of ​​the battleship or nearby, and there was no need to raise them to the surface, and only LIFT OVER THE GROUND to be transported to the intended site of detonation!

                        (heavy sigh) Noble sir, could you stop recording me in stupid stumps for no reason? :)))) I remember very well the presence of mines in the area of ​​Novorossiysk parking lot. And, of course, the idea that theoretically they could be used to blow up a ship came to my mind.
                        But this is not possible for three reasons. The first is that none of those who would take up this business could guarantee the absence of an explosion on such a mine during its movement, and this would be an epic file for the whole undertaking.
                        The second one. You, as I understand it, have forgotten the features of the bottom in the disaster area. So - I remind you. There is silt. Many meters of silt. As a matter of fact, this is precisely why the sailors did not expect the battleship to roll over - it was assumed that it would lie on its side and the rescue parties could be evacuated anyway. Instead, the ship’s superstructures cut through the silt and the ship turned over, and there was almost no access to the compartments even for divers.
                        So, the German bottom mines just lay in the thickness of the silt, it was very difficult to identify them and transport them somewhere, it needed special equipment :)))
                        But the funniest thing is not even this, but a touching logical inconsistency that you do not see point blank. The fact is that the presence of German mines in the bay near the battleship was already identified AFTER the explosion, and BEFORE the explosion, no one knew that they were there :))) So your version is possible only with two assumptions - either from Zhukov with comrades there was a pocket Pythia, a diviner of tremendous extrasensory power, able to see the presence of mines in the bay, or he had a time machine, could fly to the future and find out that they were there laughing
                        Quote: pishchak
                        It was enough for this vessel to swim, under its own power or in tow, above the empty one (and at that time the Novorossiysk LC could stand in its usual place)

                        First, for a second, the place of death of Novorossiysk is the parking lot of the battleship Sevastopol, and not an empty parking :))) Secondly, if you still have not understood that not a single base management will ever allow anyone to understand, do not understand what kind of work on the warships parking lot, and no “crusts” will do anything here. then, alas, I see no reason to continue the discussion.
                        Quote: pishchak
                        well-knowing traffic rules and having excellent driving skills a professional driver

                        But there is no such thing, alas. Those that are are run by the fleet and are not available :))))
                        Quote: pishchak
                        You, comrade Andrei from Chelyabinsk, captive to the stereotypes of “black and white,” you probably didn’t understand, judging by your writings, that if the explosion of the Novorossiysk LC was prepared and carried out (and then “investigated”) by your own

                        THAT there is no sense in the explosion of the battleship - if there is an opportunity to move the sailors away from an investigation of such a level, then Kuznetsov could be blamed for anything without any undermining and to carry out an "investigation" by his own :)))))
                        By the way, you could not describe the political background of the events. To answer the question of why Khrushchev had to put Kuznetsov to the post of commander in chief in 1953, so that in 1955 he would be removed from there to your theory, obviously does not fit
                2. +1
                  20 July 2018 20: 57
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Not in this case. I repeat, you underestimate the complexity of underwater sabotage.


                  Oh yes, Newton’s binom, naturally.
                  Underground mine understand? Do you understand the methods of setting bottom mines? What is the "complexity" here, the bottom mine (managed, which is also not difficult) to put in the parking lot at a depth?
                  Complexities exist only in your imagination.

                  Here the Italians - this is serious nonsense, at the level of delirium tremens. And for the GRU, the task is so-so, for half an hour to think
                  1. +1
                    21 July 2018 15: 19
                    Quote: AK64
                    And for the GRU, the task is so-so, for half an hour to think


                    There are many things to think about. But to do all this in practice is still much more difficult, if only because Sevastopol was the main base of the Black Sea Fleet and this base was adequately guarded, including from combat swimmers. And even if the GRU specialists could have done all this, keeping it secret was not so simple, since, as has been rightly noted, such an operation required the involvement of a large number of people, which could lead to information leakage.
            2. +1
              20 July 2018 20: 44
              In general, to prepare such a sabotage, it was necessary to notify about it not even hundreds, but probably about a thousand people

              The GKZh brought former enemies from the GDR and they gladly thumped - defended Tirpitz and etc.
              here I twisted a ring !!! --Gos a bonus to me for science fiction in 1 line.
              1. +1
                20 July 2018 21: 19
                Quote: antivirus
                In general, to prepare such a sabotage, it was necessary to notify about it not even hundreds, but probably about a thousand people

                The GKZh brought former enemies from the GDR and they gladly thumped - defended Tirpitz and etc.
                here I twisted a ring !!! --Gos a bonus to me for science fiction in 1 line.

                hi Comrade Antivirus, the less people know about the upcoming operation, the more successful it is! Yes Why, then, notify "about a thousand people" ?! smile
                Remember the cartoony Filias Fogg: “Use what’s under your arm and don’t look for something else!” smile
                At the bottom of the Sevastopol bay, German bottom mines were enough for a dozen such sabotage, they only needed subversive charges and fuses with a clockwork (since the standard time fuses of all these mines have become unusable over the years since the war due to self-discharge of galvanic cells- not a single such mechanism, found in 1955-56 and neutralized 19 (from memory) pieces of bottom mines, never took off and did not start working on its own German battery even in favorable laboratory conditions!).
                Why did the GKZh have to bring unreliable former enemies from the German Democratic Republic if it had its own, comprehensively tested, reliable personnel fellow ?!
                "State award for science fiction in 1 line" ?! For something like “watery steel” or “shining darkness” ?! smile
                1. +1
                  20 July 2018 22: 11
                  there was a plot - swimmers ital in 55 g walked on a ship in the Crimea (civilian sailors)
                  -and the Germans traveled as “tourists” to remember the old- to raise and revive hidden mines
                  1. +1
                    21 July 2018 11: 15
                    Quote: antivirus
                    there was a plot - swimmers ital in 55 g walked on a ship in the Crimea (civilian sailors)
                    -and the Germans traveled as “tourists” to remember the old- to raise and revive hidden mines

                    hi But to read the memoirs of the beaten Nazis, who even escaped a lengthy post-war “working out” at the construction sites of the national economy, they had no time for this ?! smile
                    Moreover, as relations between the USSR and the FRG began to normalize, German prisoners of war were returning en masse, why would the West German authorities need to create the preconditions for deterioration or did they not at all control the situation in their country and their “tourists” ?!
                    About "raise and revive hidden mines" is the plot of Soviet spy films of the 50s! Yes Indeed, in order to “revive” you need to get to the dashboard of the bottom mine, I doubt very much, Comrade Antivirus, in such an exotic “touristiness” in the location of the naval base (although I do not exclude the hypothetical possibility of such actions, given our usual mess, credulity and carelessness) ?!
                    1. +1
                      21 July 2018 22: 44
                      I'm talking about the GDR. "our" specialists who have been turned over by the GKZH (Canaris, Navy or others)
        2. +1
          20 July 2018 06: 31
          Of course, of course - whether it is the Italians! There are such muzhzhzhzhchiny, such ..... Mostly the Romans ....

          And ours really can ...
          1. +3
            20 July 2018 07: 57
            Quote: AK64
            And ours really can ...

            Yours - I do not know, maybe not.
            1. +1
              20 July 2018 08: 41
              Well, I’m saying: Italians are the same men \ roll their eyes in delight \: any fan will tell you this.

              A Russian .... cabbage soup and those bast shoes .... Can it be that Russian can what?

              In general, fairy tales are all nonsense: from the sea to someone else's base - it is really difficult and special equipment is needed. But it’s easy to get to your pass and pass. That’s the difference.

              That is: all this "special equipment" is needed for attacks by foreign bases. And for penetrating your admin resource is enough.

              But you are not a Russian person --- You are a Soviet person. Therefore, you will never understand that the Italian version of (a) is ridiculous --- there is no motive or opportunity, and (b) it is banally offensive.

              PS: By the way, there is an opinion that the Italian version, like the spare English one, was flown into the masses precisely as an information cover: even if someone saw and heard something strange, they would blame the Italians.
              1. +2
                20 July 2018 15: 10
                Quote: AK64
                But it’s easy to get to your pass and pass. That’s the difference.
                That is: all this "special equipment" is needed for attacks by foreign bases. And for penetrating your admin resource is enough.

                wassat fool Yeah. So that later, when they began to understand and investigate what had happened, all the work of saboteurs appeared in full view :)))))
                Quote: AK64
                And because you will never understand that the Italian version (a) is ridiculous

                Andrey, don’t try to think for me, it’s very bad for you. Who told you that I am a supporter of the Italian version? Personally, my opinion is that it was an explosion on the bottom mines of the war
                1. +2
                  20 July 2018 21: 19
                  Yeah. So that later, when they began to understand and investigate what had happened, all the work of saboteurs appeared in full view :)))))


                  She will undoubtedly come out - if they will search HONESTLY. Where and when in the Soviet army (or in the navy) did the advents be honestly investigated? In the army, the culprits are appointed.

                  I already wrote above that Kuznetsov perfectly understood everything right away. And Bulganin and Malenkov understood. So what? What could they counter this meanness? A serious investigation required time, which no one gave them and was not going to give.

                  And no one really investigated: they wrote off the mines (that is, again, the fleet’s fault - the fleet overlooked). It is clear what exactly the mines were (two). The only question is who and when exactly put them there
      2. +3
        20 July 2018 08: 38
        Dear Pischak, I think that you are wrong about the Mediterranean zone, which is secondary in the mid-50-s. The growing state of Israel, the problems with the Suez Canal, which began a year later, are proof of this. As for the combat power of Novorossiysk - it is greatly exaggerated, it seems that it was planned to be used as a training ship for the crews of our new battleships, so such expensive work was carried out on it at the end of the 40's. The analogy with Kursk and the political games around it with the setup of the “fledgling president” seem fake to me. The situation with Kursk seems to be an accident that occurred in an unintentional collision - their boat was thrown to the surface, and ours fit into the rocky section of the bottom - the depth there was a little over 100 m. there were so many gifts from him — the closure of our bases in Cuba and Vietnam, the abandonment of their space program with the Mir station, the investment of public funds in Amer’s “securities” (their price is less than the used toilet). Maybe I forgot something.
        1. +2
          20 July 2018 11: 13
          hi Dear Comrade Aviator, Thank you for your reply!
          My personal assumptions, although they seem quite likely, can be completely erroneous, “the fruit of an inflamed consciousness” winked and presented by me in the discussion of the "versions" of the death of Novorossiysk.
          In no case did I call the Mediterranean a “secondary zone”, since it has always been and remains the focus of the strategic interests of so many world players, including our common Homeland, since the military campaigns sung by the prophetic Oleg’s!
          It is unfortunate that shortly after the "inspection friendly trip" of the unflattering corn-loving Perseus of the CPSU Central Committee to Albania, our base in Vlore "ordered a long life", like many other Stalinist "developments"!
          I only doubted that, of Italian origin, the KChF flagship, even hypothetically equipped with nuclear "special munitions" and an assault force, could seriously threaten the English presence in this region, because the best time of the post-war growth of influence of the local communist parties was hopelessly missed, and military superiority on The Mediterranean Sea was behind the pro-American blocs, whether the British had such a need for its destruction in the base (with the possibility of salvation and recovery), and not on the passage by sea, for sure (especially as the ban on the passage of Turkish straits with atomic weapons on board, or I don’t understand something?) ?!
          Sincerely.
          1. +1
            20 July 2018 18: 42
            Yes, Corn Khrushchev has done a lot. In the memoirs of his little son (now a U.S. citizen, if not dead), one meeting with military sailors is mentioned, in which our admirals briskly told him, as part of the command-and-staff game, how they quickly make the Mediterranean Sea a Soviet lake with the help of the CCF. The possessed Nikita then yelled for a long time on the subject: what will you do then? I strongly doubt that my son was present there, rather, it was he who, according to the pope in an informal setting, gave out. A real politician adheres to the interests of a country with the most uncomfortable opponent, but not Khrushchev. In Albania, we lost the base, but in Yugoslavia we did not receive it, despite the assurances of eternal friendship.
            1. +2
              20 July 2018 22: 03
              Quote: Aviator_
              Yes, Corn Khrushchev has done a lot. In the memoirs of his little son (now a U.S. citizen, if not dead), one meeting with military sailors is mentioned, in which our admirals briskly told him, as part of the command-and-staff game, how they quickly make the Mediterranean Sea a Soviet lake with the help of the CCF. The possessed Nikita then yelled for a long time on the subject: what will you do then? I strongly doubt that my son was present there, rather, it was he who, according to the pope in an informal setting, gave out. A real politician adheres to the interests of a country with the most uncomfortable opponent, but not Khrushchev. In Albania, we lost the base, but in Yugoslavia we did not receive it, despite the assurances of eternal friendship.

              I’m just somewhere, I don’t remember where, I read the memoirs of our diplomatic representative in Albania, who accompanied Khrushchev’s comrades on this trip to Vlora, and from the Albanian side they were met by the Albanian leader Enver Hoxha himself.
              And so, during a tour of Vlore, when Khoja, as a patriot who was selflessly in love with his country, tried to draw Khrushchev's attention to the beautiful countryside around him, and he pointedly turned his back to the Albanian leader and spoke to one of his companions, saying loudly and categorically: "We will build here underground shelters for our submarines and, in the sense, do not care for us this beauty!"
              Our experienced diplomat, who was observing the reaction of the Albanians, saw how sharply changed in his face, Enver Hoxha broke out, but managed to suppress the bitter resentment and indignation in such a defiantly boorish behavior of high-ranking Soviet guests talking with him in such a masterful tone!
              He was quiet, but in order for our diplomat to hear, he told his Albanian companion: “They (the Soviet) will not be here!”, And soon Enver Hoxha fulfilled his promise!
              All this “elite” shoots were always ready to cross over to the West, Khrushchev’s son and son-in-law are no exception! IMHO
              1. +1
                20 July 2018 22: 06
                It looks like it was.
          2. +1
            21 July 2018 10: 44
            I only doubted that, of Italian descent, the KChF flagship, even hypothetically equipped with nuclear "special ammunition" and an assault force, could seriously threaten the English presence in this region,


            Yes, this rusty scrap metal could no longer threaten anyone ...
            "White elephant" it was. And it is even surprising how the “allies” 3 more of the same did not find an excuse to transmit for free.

            (For those who do not understand: "if you want to ruin the prince --- give him the white elephant.")
  17. +4
    20 July 2018 01: 44
    Yes ... Life is full of surprises and what only does not happen in it. He had already lived to gray hair and only now found out that the battleship had blown up Zhukov from a personal dislike of Kuznetsov. Zhukov, of course, is not a gift and does not cause much sympathy, but he is not (censorship dying out) crazy! It certainly is a whistle, according to Fagotowski. No, no offense, guys, are you serious?

    Now about bottom mines: In 1976, in Sevastopol on Lyubimovka (this is the North side), he himself observed and “touched” such. She was washed out of coastal ground by a storm. They called the sappers, they dispersed everyone and pulled this fool right on the shore. There, a tall cliff and a blast wave went into the sea. So with the battleship is possible and "donka".
    And Italians are also possible. Here I am more inclined to believe Nikolai Cherkashin, he is a naval officer and professional, stomped the decks, and did not wipe the sofa backwards. But I already wrote about this here before, under the first article. And as for Krebs, well enough is enough: the Englishwoman, of course, always craps, but not under every fence. hi
    1. +1
      20 July 2018 02: 57
      Oh comrade Sea Cat hi , also awake and reading IN ?!
      In matters of power, personal likes and dislikes are usually not quoted, although I do not argue that they give some positive or negative connotation to the interaction smile !
      A situational group (a sort of “serpentarium of like-minded people”), one or another, usually breaks into power ?!
      But our life is full of surprises, right ?! Take the boar, Comrade Sea Cat, it was a struggle of groups defending two competing (in terms of strategy and huge, supposed to be invested, money, according to the corresponding long-lasting influence on the authorities, promising proper privileges, moral and material!), The concepts of development of the Soviet Armed Forces, more addition, the construction of the ocean navy implied a substantial cut in the budget of the Ground Forces — the Soviet defense budget was never dimensionless, although many of its articles were hidden in Sredmash, Selkhozprom, Sudprom, and others!
      I also like the stories and books of the former DPL political commissar N. Cherkashin, but I don’t even dream of a nightmare, that even guessing something, comrade marine writer, and even political officer (there are no former smile ), I would like to exchange my comfortable life and publishing runs for the scandalous "unrealistic version" about the allegedly criminal, not knowing any moral and material limits, confrontation of groups at the very top of the Soviet regime! And you, comrade Sea Cat, do you believe that even with 100% proof of such a version, this bronzed writer-marinist would decide to publish it winked ?!
      But the first thoughts about such a version came to me precisely when I read the book of N. Cherkashin, dedicated to the tragedy of the battleship Novorossiysk! It is strange that the impolite and smooth-writing writer himself did not even give a hint about the likelihood of such a turn of events, or he, obsessed only with timing and emotional details, still imbued with the imaginary sanctity and sinlessness of his top party leadership, could not distance himself and embrace the event as impartially as possible and holistically, in conjunction with the domestic and foreign political conditions of that time ?!
      After all, even the quite apolitical current magazine Technique and Armament, in some of its publications devoted to the army and navy of that time, indirectly gives individual missing keys to understanding the current situation of the "naval-land" confrontation in the highest echelons of Soviet power?! ...
      You know, comrade Sea Cat, as a professional, who has been trampling oiled cast-iron plates of machine-building workshops for decades, and even a land officer, I dream to sit down on a shabby sofa, where is a thread on the shores of the warm Black Sea, cover itself with interesting books and "mercilessly trampling" pillows, to read voraciously right up to the carrot jam! Yes Believe it or not!
      In general, a lot of knowledge is also a lot of sadness, and it does not bring human happiness!
      Yours!
    2. +2
      20 July 2018 05: 15
      Quote: Sea Cat
      And Italians are also possible. Here I am more inclined to believe Nikolai Cherkashin, he is a naval officer and professional, stomped the decks, and did not wipe the sofa backwards. But I already wrote about this here before, under the first article.
      Or maybe still read the book of N.P. Muru. The battleship "Novorossiysk" (Lessons from the tragedy). Nikolay Petrovich Muru (1921–2004) - scientist in the field of ship lifting and military shipbuilding, underwater and surface unsinkability of ships and vessels, chief engineer - deputy commander of a special mission (EON-35) for lifting the battleship Novorossiysk in Sevastopol Bay, teacher, Doctor of Technical Sciences, Professor, Honored Worker of Science and Technology of the Russian Federation, retired captain 1st rank.
    3. +1
      20 July 2018 06: 07
      and then who? under each fence there is
    4. +1
      20 July 2018 06: 33
      Et yes: after all, Italians are such ... such ..... Solid tanned muscles. (Any Russian fan will tell you this right away)

      What about ours? Neither tanning nor muscle. Ugh .... Maybe they can what?
  18. +1
    20 July 2018 03: 26
    In the course of all these "debates," I had a logical question, probably worrying not only me alone ?!
    And what is it that our native Soviet power for decades has been so jealously HIDING and WASHING (WHY and WHO IT WAS NECESSARY for?) From our popular memory The feat of the best sons of the Soviet people who died tragically at Novorossiysk, what is it, the authorities, so carefully from us (the "partners" - the enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people, after all, everything was already known, what were hidden from friends ?!) I kept secret, since it was the vile machinations of enemies or the hidden Hitler mine, and not some other reason, a priori casting “problematic” questions (after discussing widely among themselves, having living witnesses and participants in those events that were not related to the “non-disclosure subscription”, and asking the right questions, collective folk wisdom, puzzle to puzzle, would quickly find the true causes of the explosion of the ship ?!) ?!
    Maybe then there would not have been the tragedy of Komsomolets and Kursk if the death of the battleship Novorossiysk had not been harbored ?!
    1. +1
      20 July 2018 06: 12
      no luck with the new workshops?

      slabs oiled in old factories, new ones - concrete
      and no longer work, bulk floors.
      in Novorossiysk - once the workshop of the factory burned down - welding in the RTI warehouse without safety measures. dragging a lot would be out of place.
      dr case - plywood mill - cooked with all measures dust collecting bin - shavings in 2 shifts (late evening) and the next day the senior works came to 6-30 to check, before the start of 1 shift ---- !!! - -scale! 1one! TELLA. "after several hours there could be a fire"
      - wherever they found the KGB-CIA in two cases.
      is about "respect for the people" and retaliatory demand for power.
      1. +2
        20 July 2018 08: 58
        hi Good day, Comrade Antivirus!
        No, I was LUCKY with the old workshops, even vaulted architecture, pre-revolutionary buildings, with wooden floors, I still found it, although now, where I started my work biography as a teenager, everything, both old and new, fell apart request
        In the old workshops, I liked the layout more, not such "birdhouses" as in the new Yes and all sorts of cozy snaps, the space between the machines (and there were interesting machines, reparation and lend-lease ones, I was curious to "live" to monitor the thoughts of their creators Yes ) more, like anarchy, I do not like excessive organization, it lacks freedom of creativity and opportunities for self-realization.
        Self-leveling concrete floors are, of course, good, but I like oiled cast-iron plates — they have the aura of many generations of our forerunners, and they are “prevented” by sawdust or sand — after soaking, it remains only to sweep and recycle. Although, yes, the sole of the shoe on them quickly "burns out" smile .
        IMHO, the KGB and the CIA are the most bonded state organizations, and they will be told what they will be told (moreover, you have to keep an eye on your own workmates ?! Yes ) If there was a KGB glimpse in the Novorossiysk explosion, then it’s purely situational, rather random, it’s not that level, the military worked here, again, my opinion, maybe erroneous request .
        Demanding for disrespectful authorities is in the same way as in Novocherkassk ?! smile
    2. +2
      20 July 2018 08: 48
      Well, I would never have thought that you were also offended by the Soviet regime. Failures and sloppiness are not exposed to public display under any authority; this is the case everywhere, not only in the USSR. Although, starting with the Khrushchev corn, the trend of suppressing failures began to gain momentum, expanding to the wide in times of stagnation.
      1. +1
        20 July 2018 11: 31
        Quote: Aviator_
        Well, I would never have thought that you were also offended by the Soviet regime. Failures and sloppiness are not exposed to public display under any authority; this is the case everywhere, not only in the USSR. Although, starting with the Khrushchev corn, the trend of suppressing failures began to gain momentum, expanding to the wide in times of stagnation.

        hi Comrade Aviator, think for yourself what offenses I can personally have against the Soviet regime, because I am the son of the working Soviet people and owe everything to him, like the Soviet government! Yes
        It’s just, stupidly, sometimes I boggle my thoughts about what led to such a crush on the Soviet Union, what could be the internal reasons (everything has been said about external, or almost everything), who is to blame? and what to do? How did this crash begin and how could it be avoided, why did we, for the most part, stare blankly at the ongoing "perestroika lawlessness", how did it happen that we were "cooked over low heat", and we were not "rocked" ...? !
        And each, known to me, “bast” I insert into the canvas these my non-constructive, retrospectively “dust-ash”, gloomy thoughts ...
        And, it seems to me, the key words to understanding are RESPECT and TRUST! They were not on the eve of the collapse of the USSR, or am I seeing too gloomy ?!
        Sincerely.
  19. +2
    20 July 2018 22: 14
    Quote: Amurets
    Or maybe still read the book of N.P. Muru. The battleship "Novorossiysk" (Lessons from the tragedy). Nikolay Petrovich Muru (1921-2004) - scientist in the field of ship lifting and military shipbuilding


    Dear comrade Amurets.

    Thanks for the advice, be sure to read it. I did not claim that I unconditionally believe in the "Italian trace" of the Novorossiysk disaster. I said that this is perfectly acceptable. That is, real evidence, or refutations of that, the other, or the third, I have not seen anywhere. hi
  20. +1
    21 July 2018 19: 04
    Andrey from Chelyabinsk,
    hi Comrade Andrey from Chelyabinsk! As you can see from your rake, "limiters" did not trample, still stumble upon them ?! Yes And these theatrical "noble" exaltations and "stupid" self-abasements are absolutely not needed.
    Well, why do you need a detailed background, if the admiral was, knowingly or unconsciously, in the wrong team and it was decided to destroy this team in the struggle for power, to neutralize it as much as possible ?! request
    As a chief and leader, he hired people and also “pulled” out of all kinds of troubles, “instructed”, “set” and “took off” (up to dismissal). It often happens, you think and rely on one thing, but in real life it turns out differently and the “set” person does not cope with the assigned work, takes a drink or bliss, or leaves the confidence, and work colleagues, in fact, sometimes turn out to be completely unfriendly request -that's life. To be honest, I’m not interested in discussing the relationship between N. Khrushchev and N. G. Kuznetsov, and which of them owed what to someone, I wrote to you, Andrei, even earlier, but you still have the same dull biographical "urinate "?! Think bigger and look wider!
    Did I write to you that the people who were preparing to undermine the Novorossiysk LC somehow differed from the military personnel and auxiliary personnel of the Sevastopol naval base and port, or stood out with special “crusts” ?! These were their own, supported at the highest level! What would begin to carry out such an operation from the bay-floundering, without training and local agents, this is not wartime, to climb ahead! Which boss could resist the "order from above", especially since the Stalinist order was still firmly in everyone’s heads and in life it’s not a stray gang of “Italian combat swimmers” (though we are all assured that they could easily penetrate and all day, unnoticed, to hide in the area of ​​LK parking, on the shore or half-sunken ships of the Sevastopol bay, and to carry out this blasting, then why it is impossible to do the same to a local who knows this area and all orders ?!). Someone was used blindly, someone deliberately, how many people, so many approaches to them, people are the most important thing in any business, and especially in military sabotage!
    What is unclear to you, Comrade Andrei from Chelyabinsk, I have the impression that I’m writing in a conversation with some schoolchildren who have mechanically memorized the rules and have no idea how these rules are observed in real life ?!
    Indeed, "LONG (I sincerely love the sea and the Navy, and" I am engaged in the history of the Navy "for exactly 50 years, half a century and in my youth seriously hesitated between the profession of a shipbuilding engineer and my present, and you, comrade Andrei from Chelyabinsk, how" long "by it “do you do it” ?! purely for the sake of interest I ask winked ) Engage in the history of the fleet ", even if you are literally literate, learned all the significant dates, all battles, sabotage and landing operations, paragraphs of the Naval Regulations, Locations, Navigation Maps and TTX, the history of all ships of the world and other-other ... this does not mean at all your knowledge of the nuances of the relationship between real people, bosses and subordinates, work with personnel, not to mention intrigue, "undercover squabble" in the Komsomol-Communist Party, military and labor collectives (I can also see this from how you did not understand the specific Soviet term "public opinion").
    Only the lazy one does not know about the many-meter-thick mud layer - the "bottom" of the Sevastopol Bay! Attempts to completely clear its waters are still being made, and, as far as I remember from news reports, this year (or in the past?), In preparation for the beach season, they again found a German bottom mine near the coast.
    These mines were not news for Black Sea divers in the 40s and 50s, they were periodically laid down and disarmed or undermined on the spot. There were also serif cards, ASN posts, and places where many of these mines fell into the water during wartime. During the occupation of Sevastopol, Hitler’s divers rummaged around at the bottom, for sure some of the schemes of their finds we got in the captured documents. I think that those who needed to know knew and didn’t forget (since they simply didn’t reach much — they cleared the shipping channel and ship parking lots first of all), about the mines in the Sevastopol Bay and knew what could be done with them. Not all documents have survived to this day — they have been destroyed for one reason or another.
    These mines were practically harmless when transported at a depth of their depths and could explode, from the hydraulic pressure sensor, only with a pressure drop, with a significant rise above the bottom, closer to the surface of the water.
    The possibility of undermining a mine is not an obstacle for a mineral, these are standard costs of the profession, you get used to it somehow (like any inevitable constant danger to life), as they say- "offensively, annoyingly, but okay!", Do what should do and do not "go in cycles", and those who "go in cycles" end badly Yes
    What else can you explain, comrade Andrei from Chelyabinsk ?! I hope that you are familiar with this statement "the winners write history", and it turned out with Novorossiysk. IMHO.
    With "stories and stories" about the Novorossiysk medical club, as in a joke about the old man and the doctor: "And you tell!" winked
    I wrote about my own version of the death of the LC and the probable reason for the destruction of this largest and most powerful ship of the Soviet Navy, as I saw it after reading numerous art and documentary materials about this tragedy! It seems to me that the demolition of the battleship by my own people is most probable, it, as a provocative pretext, a “fat point” and a terrifying example, allowed N. Khrushchev to associate to break the resistance of his opponents in claims for undivided power on a Union-wide scale and emerge victorious!
    Unprincipledness and ruthlessness to the people of the NSC and the GKZH I personally do not cause any doubt, they also made large donations to the people in the struggle for power and preserving their loved ones, comrade Andrei from Chelyabinsk!
    Sincerely.
    1. +1
      21 July 2018 22: 54
      and the choice was between the GUZH and the NSC-fleet (?) or Korolev-space-rocket.
      we glorify missiles and don’t see how much dough the country could give to 2 (CHOOSE ONE NEED) directions of development of means of DELIVERY TO MOST, 65 years ago
      The choice was made CORRECT and I do not presume to judge the explosion of Novorossiysk
      1. +2
        21 July 2018 23: 34
        Quote: antivirus
        and the choice was between the GUZH and the NSC-fleet (?) or Korolev-space-rocket.
        we glorify missiles and don’t see how much dough the country could give to 2 (CHOOSE ONE NEED) directions of development of means of DELIVERY TO MOST, 65 years ago
        The choice was made CORRECT and I do not presume to judge the explosion of Novorossiysk

        hi Comrade Antivirus, I do not mind, especially since our story is what it is! Yes And “if only, if only,” let’s leave the alternative fiction writers.
        Sincerely.
  21. 0
    24 July 2018 16: 41
    Quote: pishchak
    hi Oh, comrade Kostadinov, what an idealist you are, I swear smile ! But I also have idealistic ideas about sunny Bulgaria of the socialist period and only pleasant memories! Yes
    Would you tell this "The leaders of the USSR appreciated people more than their generals and officers and much more than the leaders and presidents of most other countries." so, offhand, to the “more valuable” soldiers and sailors, and to the junior commanders-heroes of the defense of Sevastopol, on the orders of the leaders of the USSR left by the fleeing “less valuable” generals and admirals on Cape Khersones in 1942 ?!
    I did not have the opportunity to compare the attitude of the WB king, the emperor of Japan, the leaders of the PRC and Poland, and so on, because I was an ordinary Soviet man and I know what I'm writing about, not at all theoretically! Fortunately, there was time more than once, and to think over and summarize everything 1001 times, you think that I am the only one who is tormented by the same questions- "How did it happen? Who is to blame? And What should I do?"
    All the best to you, Comrade Kostadinov, and Thank you very much for being with us Russians during this difficult time!
    Sincerely.

    Thank you for your kind words dear comrade. And it’s necessary to answer questions like that because young people ask.
  22. 0
    4 October 2018 07: 26
    The version about the weakening of the power of the Soviet Navy is interesting, but logically contradictory. After all, any weakening due to the failure of a combat unit has a time-limited effect. Sooner or later, instead of a sunken ship, a new, or even not one, will come. The resulting advantage is rapidly disappearing. So the explosion of the battleship by special forces made sense only if it would immediately be followed by a blow by all forces and a military solution to the conflict. Otherwise, it just makes no sense. The operation to eliminate an entire battleship in a foreign port, and even in peacetime, is a task that is technically incredibly complex and politically extremely dangerous. Indeed, if something goes wrong and the other side receives proof of a sabotage war, this can have truly fatal consequences.

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