Military Review

"Kucher" gun: the choice of traditionalist self-defenders

72
Hunters are extremely conservative people. Most domestic and European hunters are convinced: a hunting rifle is only a shotgun. Even self-charging, which recently in the civilian market weapons apparently invisible, and who in their reliability are not too inferior to the “two-faced”, hardly fit into this scheme. Not to mention the "pump".


Meanwhile, fans of the “classics” and traditions are also among a rather rather big group of shooters who are not engaged in hunting and practical shooting, which are conventionally called “self-defenders”.



And some of them are convinced that the best self-defense weapon is a double-barreled gun with short barrels and external triggers.

Such a weapon was once perhaps the most common means of defense, and it appeared under the name of a stage or coachman's gun, lupar and kooggan. It was successfully used by Russian coachmen, defending with it from “dashing people” and wolves, “mischievous” on the endless tracts of the empire, and cowboys, and sheriffs, and Sicilian shepherds, and many, many others.

"Kucher" gun: the choice of traditionalist self-defenders


During the civil war in the United States, a double-barreled barrel with shortened trunks was the favorite weapon of riders on both sides. Confederate legendary cavalry commander Nathan Bedford Forrest claimed that the double-barreled gun was the best weapon of his riders.



I must say that the American cavalry, unlike their European counterparts, rarely used cold weapons, more leaning on the "firearms." They approached the enemy and fired at him with revolvers or double-barrels. The latter had the advantage that a shot sheaf was much easier to gallop on the enemy. Moreover, it was unlikely to shoot more than two times in a cavalry skirmish, when opponents gallop towards each other, and it was easier to reload the shotgun than a revolver. And finally, the revolver cost much more.



The double barrel, because of its “budget”, as well as due to its greater universality than the “master” revolvers and carbines, was popular among American migrants and among Russian peasants.

Almost until the middle of the last century, double-barreled shotguns with short trunks were used in some police departments, again because of their efficiency.



Fans of the "double-faced" claim that the "small charge" of the double-barreled gun is not really a problem, since in case of an attack of three armed opponents, the chances of the defender are zero. The statement, from my point of view, is by no means indisputable.

The strengths indicated are a better balance than those of magazine rifles, the absence of moving parts of automation and high reliability. The double-barreled mechanism is closed in the block and inaccessible for external influences, of which the worst is non-professional disassembly and cleaning. Two barrels and two trigger mechanisms provide a double guarantee, and failure of one does not block the system as a whole.



Discharge of the cartridge into the barrel occurs directly with the hand, which allows the use of various, including non-seamed, cartridges. Extraction is also extremely simple, even with an ejector pushing the cartridge from the open barrel and not through the extraction window.



The need for short barrels is caused not only by the desire to make self-defense weapons as compact and turning as possible, but it also provides a fairly wide spread of shot or canister at a distance of about 10 m from the muzzle. In this case, the gun should provide an acceptable bullet fight at a distance of up to 50 meters. For the 12 caliber, the optimal long barrel is 500 mm (this is the length indicated in the “About weapons” law as the minimum). And in the US, the length in 510 mm (24 inches) is standard for self-defense shotguns.

An important point for “self-defenders” is the presence of external triggers, which makes it possible to store or transport a rifle with cartridges in the chambers and with non-triggers, that is, maximum combat-ready, without the risk of “dropping” the spring or getting an involuntary shot. However, we note that the storage and transportation of weapons with a cartridge in the chamber is a violation of the law.

Today in Russia, perhaps, only one gun is produced that falls under this class - this is the MP 43 KN, produced by the Izhevsk Mechanical Plant. Barrel length - classic 510 mm, weight - 3,4 kg. The barrels are cylindrical drilled, optionally equipped with interchangeable muzzle restrictions.


It is curious that initially the gun was made exclusively for the United States; factory workers did not see any prospects for it in the domestic market. However, after a small batch came on the shelves of domestic stores, and it was “ground” immediately, they began to sell the gun in Russia.

Despite the usual complaints about the quality of Izhmekh's products, with respect to the MP-43КН, one often hears positive reviews that mark a good performance of the gun, a good fit of wood to metal. The gun has a good balance and is very compact. In a disassembled form it is easily placed in any backpack or travel bag.



It has quite a decent bullet fight at distances that are normal for a smooth-bore weapon, which makes it possible to use it at beast hunts. In addition, it is successfully used in quail hunting.

Among the shortcomings, perhaps, it is possible to note the automatic fuse, which is activated at the turn of the trunks and inherited from the intracurrent progenitor - Izh-43. On a gun with external triggers, the thing in my opinion is completely superfluous.



Strictly speaking, in a real self-defense niche, the double-barreled gun is still inferior to self-charging and “pumps”, many of which are not inferior to it either in compactness or reliability, but bypass in rate of fire and multiply charged ones.

Nevertheless, the “Lupara” continues to be in demand and even makes its way into the sport. In particular, in the USA she participates in competitions in “cowboy shooting” or “cowboy triathlon”.



In Russia, the popular “Makhnovsk-kulak and partisan shooting” is picking up - comic matches, where the organizers combine shooting competitions with a costume show. Since 2006, such competitions are held regularly, and the main weapon on them is the double barrel.

Author:
72 comments
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  1. Cat
    Cat 21 July 2018 06: 34
    +10
    Hunters are extremely conservative people. Most domestic and European hunters are convinced that a hunting rifle is only a double-barreled shotgun.

    All truly respected Boris - "the beast and the game must have a chance"!
    To the Author, I blame myself for being very wary of treating your series of articles, as in the parable "they lie most of all on hunting and war"! But week after week, you sincerely please us with your stories. From some, to be honest, my soul was enough, from others I was transferred to childhood and youth. In all cases, “drooling desire” and “possess the trunk from your article” were beaten out. In order to adjust himself, he gathered himself together and plopped into a shooting gallery or at a shooting range to compare the impressions described with real emotions. And the most interesting thing - it coincided !!!
    Boris, please do not drop the "paper-and-paper business" so successfully you get it !!!
    Sincerely, Vlad Kotische!
    1. SERGUS
      SERGUS 21 July 2018 12: 07
      +5
      Quote: Kotischa
      All truly respected Boris - "the beast and the game must have a chance"!

      And if without jokes, then a double-barreled shotgun is really often enough to hunt, because if you didn’t get from the first shot and catch up with the second, the animal or game is usually too far away to shoot the third time.
      1. tracer
        tracer 21 July 2018 22: 42
        +4
        This is exactly what I'm trying to hammer into young hunters. When hunting, you need not an accurate shot, but a quick one. From any position, since in 95 percent of cases the hunter is not ready to fire. And the chances are not blle 2-3 shots. ALL !!! Ditch will already be far away at least a drum for 30 rounds put it confused then? I walked about 15 years in Russia with a “hedgehog 27.” Not ah, but reliable as a Kalash ...
    2. Royalist
      Royalist 21 July 2018 18: 40
      0
      He took the namesake straight from the tongue: when he read about the double-barreled shotgun: he saw it like "the most common means of self-defense": a chaise rolls across the steppes (prairies), and Kucher has such a gun
  2. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 21 July 2018 06: 57
    +5
    What about the Houdah pistols? wink


    1. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 21 July 2018 07: 00
      +4

      Very many of them were! fellow
      1. Cat
        Cat 21 July 2018 08: 22
        +3
        Howoudah - probably still not a "gun", but a sawn-off shotgun. Rather, a short-barrel shotgun was originally made without a stock.
        The Kuchersky shotgun, although a short one.
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 22 July 2018 02: 25
          +2
          Quote: Kotischa
          Howoudah, probably still not a "gun", but a sawn-off shotgun. Rather, a short-barrel shotgun was originally made without a stock.
          Kuchersky rifle, this is a short shotgun

          And what do you see as a "strong" contradiction? The haudahs were first made like sawn-off shotguns ... the mentioned "lupara" (not only the "coachman", but also the "bandit" (Sicilians, sir, for example!) Weapons also initially represented a "banal" sawn-off shotgun! The haudahs, like the lupars , subsequently began to make professional gunsmiths ...

          LUPARA

          HAUDAH
      2. andrewkor
        andrewkor 21 July 2018 09: 42
        +1
        Just remember Mad Max!
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 21 July 2018 22: 45
          0
          And the episode with the funeral of the Indian from "The Magnificent SEVEN" did not come to mind? From 12 minutes from the start of the movie!
          There, one of the heroes borrowed a double-barreled shotgun from the coachman of the stagecoach and helped Yul Brinner bring the body to the cemetery!
      3. Royalist
        Royalist 21 July 2018 19: 04
        +2
        Nikolayevich, this haudah has certain advantages, but still a gun is preferable: 1) for aim shooting, a shoulder rest is preferable. 2) Have you ever shot from an image? I could have lied that I had to, too, but I won’t lie, and my friend in 1974-75 (?) Made a single-barreled sawn-off shotgun and shot. Then he admitted: after the shot he had a feeling that his hand was torn off (he was then 12 years old and his hands were as thin as matches) ... 3) the gun has one more thing: it’s more convenient with the butt, to shoot something and in the worst case comes to a fight, the butt is more convenient in that you keep the enemy on removal
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 22 July 2018 09: 05
          +1
          I also honestly say, Slava, that I didn’t shoot from the sawn-off shotgun, but I’m inclined to agree that it’s much more convenient with the butt ... Moreover, I watched in Hollywood films how they shoot from the “pump” without a butt. I mentally wondered “what are the sensations in the hands with such a shot? "And what is the accuracy? But, criticizing or approving a weapon, it would be nice to take into account such factors: both haudahs and lupars were made with butts and without stocks ... the difference was that lupars were rarely made without stocks, and haudakhs rarely made with stocks (though, " haudahs with a butt "were more often made with a butt butt ... could be used without a butt, but with a butt ...) haudahs appeared as a" weapon of last chance "when hunting large predators ... that is. as if an additional ... auxiliary weapon. Lupars (as well as similar ("coachman") weapons ...) were used as "self-sufficient" weapons ... often, the only ones (lupars, before becoming Cosa Nostra's "favorite" weapon, were first weapons of Sicilian shepherds ... ). There is still a factor that "unites" Luparu-Houdah-cartridges from the common "normal" hunting rifles.
  3. Bormanxnumx
    Bormanxnumx 21 July 2018 07: 51
    +1
    The need for short barrels is determined not only by the desire to make self-defense weapons as compact and spreading as possible, but also provides a fairly wide spread of shot or buckshot already at a distance of about 10 m from the muzzle.

    Nonsense, the expansion of the shot is caused not by the long barrel (we do not take into account the "bits" ending in 10 cm behind the chamber), but by the shape of the muzzle muzzle.
    1. bunta
      bunta 21 July 2018 11: 32
      +6
      Ahem. :) If I say that the expansion depends on the acceleration with which the buckshot or shot will fly out of the trunk, will this surprise you?
    2. Simargl
      Simargl 21 July 2018 13: 40
      +5
      Quote: BORMAN82
      Nonsense, the expansion of the shot is caused not by the long barrel (we do not take into account the "bits" ending in 10 cm behind the chamber), but by the shape of the muzzle muzzle.
      The expansion of the fraction is due to:
      1 - residual pressure of the powder gases (which depends on the length of the barrel, ceteris paribus),
      2 - the speed of the projectile,
      3 - a form of muzzle narrowing,
      4 - the shape of the muzzle
      5 - by the availability and technical characteristics of the container ...
      Your item is lost in not even a complete list.
      1. Bormanxnumx
        Bormanxnumx 21 July 2018 15: 12
        0
        Quote: bunta
        Ahem. :) If I say that the expansion depends on the acceleration with which the buckshot or shot will fly out of the trunk, will this surprise you?

        Quote: Simargl
        The expansion of the fraction is due to:
        1 - residual pressure of the powder gases (which depends on the length of the barrel, ceteris paribus),
        2 - the speed of the projectile,
        3 - a form of muzzle narrowing,
        4 - the shape of the muzzle
        5 - by the availability and technical characteristics of the container ...
        Your item is lost in not even a complete list.


        This article examines a "normal self-defender", respectively, his barrel is 500mm. Let's take it and compare it with a 720mm barrel in terms of the scattering influence given by our respected colleagues. The book by N. L. Izmetinsky and L. E. Mikhailov "Izhevsk rifles" section "Shotgun Ballistics"
        Acceleration at the 500mm barrel mark is 145m / s² (350mm 950m / s²). Data for a larger barrel length is not given in the book — probably over 500mm the increase in projectile acceleration is almost neglected.
        Gas pressure: at a peak pressure of 640 atm, we have 100 atm at 500 mm and 70 atm at 720 mm (at 350 mm 165 atm.)
        Projectile speed: 500mm - 392m / s, 720mm - 400m / s (350mm - 375m / s)
        I hope it is clear that if we talk about the permitted barrel length (500mm), and not about the “kulak” sawn-off shotgun, there are special prerequisites for a significant one! there is no increase in dispersion by 10m (as in the text) :) Therefore, the main factors will be the shape of the muzzle end + the presence / absence of choke and the method of equipping the shot cartridge itself. If I made a mistake, please correct)
        1. bunta
          bunta 21 July 2018 17: 38
          +4
          Quote: BORMAN82
          If I made a mistake, please correct)


          Take the dice. Collect a pyramid from them. Is the pyramid worth it? Now replace the cubes with balls. Will the pyramid stand? Any bunch of balls will roll on the table. Gravity acts on the balls, the upper balls tangentially press on the lower ones, forcing them to roll out perpendicular to the acting force. The same thing happens in the trunk. Only instead of gravity on a bunch of balls, through wad, does the force of powder gases act. And force is acceleration mass. You consider the acceleration for the condition of uniformly accelerated movement. In fact, the graph of the increase in velocity in the trunk is non-linear. First, the speed increases sharply, closer to the muzzle end, the increase in speed is slower, so for our case we need to take differential acceleration, that is, in a very short section in the shortest possible time. It will differ from the acceleration calculated in a linear way. Of course, due to the nonlinearity of the increase in the velocity of the projectile, the force will act more in the initial section of the path. That is, for the cutoff, the spread will be greater, for a long trunk less. For this reason, the spread will be even for the cylinder. The presence of interchangeable chokes allows you to adjust the scree in the right size.
          Hpafik:

          Acceleration table (indicators not checked)


          Pictures from the Hansa.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Bormanxnumx
            Bormanxnumx 21 July 2018 19: 03
            0
            Quote: bunta
            That is, for the crop, the spread will be greater, for a long trunk less

            Are we not talking about cuts, but about a self-defense gun with 500 mm barrels? And in the photo in the article, the Confederate commander Nathan Bedford Forrest clearly does not keep a sawn-off shotgun? I do not deny the harmful effects of acceleration and the associated overloads on the deterioration of talus, I hint at exaggeration the influence of this factor on a shot shot from a gun with a barrel length of 500 mm. (10m distance) compared to longer trunks.
            1. bunta
              bunta 21 July 2018 19: 32
              +3
              i thought we are talking about

              Quote: BORMAN82
              Nonsense, the expansion of the shot is caused not by the long barrel (we do not take into account the "bits" ending in 10 cm behind the chamber), but by the shape of the muzzle muzzle.
        2. Simargl
          Simargl 21 July 2018 20: 48
          0
          Quote: BORMAN82
          Therefore, the main factors will be the shape of the muzzle presence / absence of choke Well method of equipping the shot cartridge itself. If I made a mistake, please correct)
          Nowhere. Except one:
          Quote: Simargl
          Your item is lost in not even a complete list.
          You yourself, or under the influence of my writings, supplemented the selection (I have it n 3, n 5).
          The acceleration that I mentioned bunta (Andrey) depends on pressure (n 1).
  4. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 21 July 2018 08: 32
    +2
    Lupara is a short double-barreled shotgun. A deadly weapon for short-range shootings ... The edge of a hunting rifle is even worse. It is also dangerous that when shooting with a buckshot gun can not be identified. Ballistic examination will be powerless wassat
    1. Same lech
      Same lech 21 July 2018 09: 39
      +2
      Lupara is a short double-barreled shotgun. A deadly weapon for short-range shootings ... The edge of a hunting rifle is even worse.

      There is also a class of home-made water pipes (for the size of the sleeve) and various couplings ... people talentedly come up with simple shooters literally from nothing. smile
      1. Cat
        Cat 21 July 2018 12: 43
        +3
        Quote: The same Lech

        There is also a class of home-made water pipes (for the size of the sleeve) and various couplings ... people talentedly come up with simple shooters literally from nothing. smile

        The proto-people are the “pugach”, although I have not seen them in my 12th caliber during my life. Basically 16 or 20, or under a paper cartridge with a piston, from a series of bites, pour the gunpowder into the barrel, ram the ramrod, etc. the calibers of the latter were different from 30 to 10, depending on the stray and ambitions of the self-made one. Interest in these masterpieces was the trigger "ala children's gun." Well vomited them often. In a year, two three cases sounded constantly.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. Tank hard
      Tank hard 23 July 2018 19: 53
      +2
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      Lupara is a short double-barreled shotgun. Deadly weapon for short-range shootings ...

      The budget weapon of the Sicilian shepherds to "fight off the wolf", which is reflected in the name, the rest then ...
  5. Doliva63
    Doliva63 21 July 2018 14: 55
    +5
    Scales all this. The best shotgun is an automatic with optics and PBS.
    Additional question on the hunting ticket exam: elk from what range will you beat? Answer: well, you can even moose from 300 m. The examiners fell into a stupor and clarified: did you finally hunt a code-thread? Me: of course. With a machine gun and a machine gun. What's wrong? They: no, with a machine gun and a machine gun everything is so laughing
    And for the "defenders" the machine is the most. It takes up little space, quickly reduced to battle, etc.
    1. Massik
      Massik 21 July 2018 15: 18
      +2
      Quote: Doliva63
      Answer: well, you can even moose from 300 m. The examiners fell into a stupor and clarified: did you finally hunt a code-thread? Me: of course. With a machine gun and a machine gun.
      Yes, it’s not a question, only then a respected earner, carve the carcass and clean the meat from the contents of offal.
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 21 July 2018 21: 02
        +1
        Quote: Marssik
        Quote: Doliva63
        Answer: well, you can even moose from 300 m. The examiners fell into a stupor and clarified: did you finally hunt a code-thread? Me: of course. With a machine gun and a machine gun.
        Yes, it’s not a question, only then a respected earner, carve the carcass and clean the meat from the contents of offal.

        Duc himself butchered, what's the problem? That's when the hare brought stuffed with shot, it was that hemorrhagic laughing And with a machine gun - one bullet in the heart, and that - right through. By machine gun I meant RPKS with optics, also single.
        1. Massik
          Massik 26 July 2018 18: 50
          0
          Quote: Doliva63
          And with a machine gun - one bullet in the heart, and that - right through. By machine gun I meant RPKS with optics, also single.
          Elk ... 5,45 ... 300 meters ... heart ...
          Well, they would bend about 150, you can still believe ...
    2. Curious
      Curious 21 July 2018 19: 37
      +4
      Better yet, a tank. Then moose and from 4500 m can be taken. And for self-defense is much better.
      But the hunting ticket is contraindicated for such “specialists”.
      1. prodi
        prodi 21 July 2018 19: 59
        0
        Well, there’s no sub-caliber cartridge for a gun - so what makes it difficult to do?
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 21 July 2018 20: 54
          0
          Quote: prodi
          Well, there’s no sub-caliber cartridge for a gun - so what makes it difficult to do?
          Come on! Poleva, for example ...
          Only not a cartridge, but a bullet ... or a shell (shot), but container - they are all, in fact, sub-caliber.
          1. prodi
            prodi 21 July 2018 21: 08
            0
            Yes, you're right, I just imagined a kind of BOPS in miniature
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 21 July 2018 21: 18
              +3
              You will not believe!
              1. uskrabut
                uskrabut 24 July 2018 13: 51
                0
                Quote: Simargl
                You will not believe!

                Like BOPS wassat
                1. Simargl
                  Simargl 24 July 2018 16: 07
                  0
                  Quote: uskrabut
                  Like BOPS
                  Well, like this...
                  Quote: prodi
                  Yes, you're right, I just imagined a kind of BOPS in miniature

                  Quote: Simargl
                  You will not believe!
      2. Doliva63
        Doliva63 22 July 2018 18: 43
        +2
        Quote: Curious
        Better yet, a tank. Then moose and from 4500 m can be taken. And for self-defense is much better.
        But the hunting ticket is contraindicated for such “specialists”.

        You just do not know. Tank - for "catching" fish, if that. Apparently, you did not practice hunting in the army laughing
        Over time, it became disgusting for me to kill defenseless animals, a hunting ticket gathering dust somewhere in the closet. There is food in the store and in the garden, and for the sake of entertainment, killing - this is from wretchedness, it must be treated.
        1. Grid
          Grid 23 July 2018 14: 35
          +1
          and for the sake of entertainment, killing is from wretchedness, it must be treated.

          I absolutely agree.
          1. Doliva63
            Doliva63 23 July 2018 19: 17
            0
            Quote: Grille
            and for the sake of entertainment, killing is from wretchedness, it must be treated.

            I absolutely agree.

            drinks
  6. Sancho_SP
    Sancho_SP 21 July 2018 19: 02
    +1
    From the Hansa, it is completely and completely licked :) One could even refer, at least as a source of materials.
    1. Curious
      Curious 21 July 2018 19: 30
      +4
      It’s not very popular among the authors of VO to refer to the source, because then it will become clear that in most cases the proud stigma of “author” stands under a slightly made-up copy-paste, sometimes even from Wikipedia.
  7. Royalist
    Royalist 21 July 2018 19: 09
    0
    Quote: Simargl
    Quote: BORMAN82
    Nonsense, the expansion of the shot is caused not by the long barrel (we do not take into account the "bits" ending in 10 cm behind the chamber), but by the shape of the muzzle muzzle.
    The expansion of the fraction is due to:
    1 - residual pressure of the powder gases (which depends on the length of the barrel, ceteris paribus),
    2 - the speed of the projectile,
    3 - a form of muzzle narrowing,
    4 - the shape of the muzzle
    5 - by the availability and technical characteristics of the container ...
    Your item is lost in not even a complete list.

    And the "projectile speed" will also depend on the strength of the charge: half the charge of the powder or full + quality of the powder
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 21 July 2018 21: 06
      0
      Quote: Royalist
      And the "projectile speed" will also depend on the strength of the charge: half the charge of the powder or full + quality of the powder
      Taking into account
      Quote: Simargl
      Your item is lost in not even a complete list.
      Those. I understand that (n 1) the residual depends on the length of the barrel, hitch, type of gunpowder, its quality, obturation, projectile mass (oddly enough, it also depends on the shot), barrel roughness, thickness, material, atmospheric pressure, while I can paint - how and in which direction,
      Speed ​​depends on the length, the weight of the gunpowder, its quality, type ... etc ..
      The complete list is wild simple. Anyway, something, but I’ll miss it.
  8. Royalist
    Royalist 21 July 2018 19: 12
    0
    Quote: Marssik
    Quote: Doliva63
    Answer: well, you can even moose from 300 m. The examiners fell into a stupor and clarified: did you finally hunt a code-thread? Me: of course. With a machine gun and a machine gun.
    Yes, it’s not a question, only then a respected earner, carve the carcass and clean the meat from the contents of offal.

    And he will put it on a single fire, and if the moose gets the turn, then he will entrust the cutting to someone else
  9. Royalist
    Royalist 21 July 2018 19: 31
    +1
    Quote: Kotischa
    Quote: The same Lech

    There is also a class of home-made water pipes (for the size of the sleeve) and various couplings ... people talentedly come up with simple shooters literally from nothing. smile

    The proto-people are the “pugach”, although I have not seen them in my 12th caliber during my life. Basically 16 or 20, or under a paper cartridge with a piston, from a series of bites, pour the gunpowder into the barrel, ram the ramrod, etc. the calibers of the latter were different from 30 to 10, depending on the stray and ambitions of the self-made one. Interest in these masterpieces was the trigger "ala children's gun." Well vomited them often. In a year, two three cases sounded constantly.

    The namesake, quite right: samopaly (we called it - samopal) often exploded. In my childhood I had a neighbor "zilch" (he had the word-parasite "zilk": I used it all the time) and he exploded in his hand: he got gunpowder somewhere and put "perfumes" on (we used sulfur matches and less often gunpowder - diphcitis). As a result, lost 2 fingers. Later it was said that he immediately sprinkled very little gunpowder or wanted to shoot further?
  10. Forever so
    Forever so 21 July 2018 20: 41
    0
    In one interesting book, he read that the civil war in Russia was stopped by the so-called kulak sawn-off shotgun of the three-ruler, which, refuting the pace ... of the Gaidar, was very accurate and convenient in battle at distances up to 200 meters. By the way, during the Second World War, the German authorities issued a decree on the instant execution of those who found the trilinear edge.
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 21 July 2018 21: 13
      +3
      Quote: Forever so
      It was very accurate and convenient in battle at distances up to 200 meters.
      Lack of sighting and accuracy of 200 m ?! Yeah! From hip to gallop! lol
      Quote: Forever so
      By the way, during the Second World War, the German authorities issued a decree on the instant execution of those who found the trilinear edge.
      Those. those who discovered it entirely - were shot a little later ?!
    2. Grid
      Grid 21 July 2018 21: 18
      +1
      In one interesting book he read that the civil war in Russia was stopped by the so-called kulak sawn-off shotgun from the three-ruler

      Brad.
      which, refuting the pace ... of the Gaidar’s owner, was very accurate and convenient in battle at distances up to 200 meters.

      Properly made and specially equipped cartridge. The question is, how many fists understood such things as internal and external ballistics?
      1. Simargl
        Simargl 21 July 2018 21: 29
        +2
        Quote: Grille
        Properly made and specially equipped cartridge.
        Properly done - this is a barrel cut on a lathe. Interestingly, at least one such sawn-off shotgun during the Civil War is?
        Specially equipped cartridge - how is it? There the volume is such that part of the gunpowder did not catch fire, probably.
        And still need sighting + sighting.
        I think that the "kulak" shotgun had problems with accuracy at distances of more than 10 m ...
        1. Grid
          Grid 21 July 2018 22: 05
          0
          Interestingly, at least one such sawn-off shotgun during the Civil War is?

          Oddly enough, but there is. The truth is very small and they are quite different from the usual movie look.
          - This is a barrel cut on a lathe.

          It is possible without a machine tool, but this is no longer the level of a villager.
          Specially equipped cartridge - how is it? There the volume is such that part of the gunpowder did not catch fire, probably.

          The problem, for a rifle cartridge, is solved. But for low-pulse ones - not very.
          And still need sighting + sighting.

          Naturally.
          Well, I say, for making a really effective sawn-off shotgun, very deep knowledge in the arms business and a fairly high qualification are required.
          1. Simargl
            Simargl 21 July 2018 22: 28
            0
            Quote: Grille
            Oddly enough, but there is. The truth is very small and they are quite different from the usual movie look
            Do you know that the Mosin rifle had three barrel lengths? Infantry, dragoon and carbine. Almost everyone knows the mosquito in the form of a dragoon: this option later became the Mosin rifle of the 1891/30 model.
            And there was still an infantry, 7 cm longer and a carbine - 20 cm shorter.
            Quote: Grille
            It is possible without a machine tool, but this is no longer the level of a villager.
            Those. with the machine - the level of the then villager ?! Without a machine, the cut will not be smooth, blow the bullet in a random direction.
            Quote: Grille
            The problem, for a rifle cartridge, is solved. But for low-pulse ones - not very.
            Fill less gunpowder? Are you laughing ?!
            What about the low-impulse? Or then there was already a low-pulse 7,62x54R ?!
            Quote: Grille
            Well, I say, for making a really effective sawn-off shotgun, very deep knowledge in the arms business and a fairly high qualification are required.
            Those. even an advanced “fist” could not be made even theoretically - research, testing, etc. are needed here.
            1. Grid
              Grid 21 July 2018 23: 44
              0
              Do you know that the Mosin rifle had three barrel lengths?

              Well, you directly revealed the truth to me! And then, I was just a Siberian felt boot, I never suspected the existence of a Mosin carbine arr 1907, and I would clearly confuse it with a sawed-off shotgun !!! :)))

              .e. with the machine - the level of the then villager ?!

              With the machine easier.
              Without a machine, the cut will not be smooth, blow the bullet in a random direction.

              If you don’t know how the pens grow from the place where the legs grow, then it will be so. I don’t know about the pens, but I don’t know how to do such an operation.
              By the way, the bullet will not be "blown out" in any direction, but its stabilization will be violated.
              Fill less gunpowder? Are you laughing ?!

              Over you? Yes.
              But no. The problem of the "excess" volume of the sleeve is generally solved elementarily. Try to think with your head.
              Those. even an advanced “fist” could not even be made theoretically

              Why couldn’t it? It all depends on the "fist". They are very different people, and therefore everything happens.

              Z.Y. Stop thinking for the interlocutor. In my humble opinion, I express my thoughts quite clearly and write only what I want to say.
              1. prodi
                prodi 22 July 2018 06: 56
                0
                "extra" gunpowder is not a problem, and the barrel end face is also a problem - the bullet is not twisted for its weight
                1. Grid
                  Grid 22 July 2018 08: 53
                  0
                  the problem is a bullet not twisted for its weight

                  With a steepness of grooves of 31,5 caliber (240mm), it is problematic to “not twist” a 7,62mm caliber bullet.
                  1. prodi
                    prodi 22 July 2018 10: 01
                    0
                    Quote: Grille
                    the problem is a bullet not twisted for its weight

                    With a steepness of grooves of 31,5 caliber (240mm), it is problematic to “not twist” a 7,62mm caliber bullet.

                    And the fact that the push due to the lower initial speed is weaker is nothing?
                    1. Grid
                      Grid 22 July 2018 11: 36
                      +1
                      And the fact that the push due to the lower initial speed is weaker is nothing?

                      Firstly, how much movement is enough to create the necessary gyroscopic moment to stabilize the rifle bullet of the 7,62x54 R type “L” cartridge?
                      Secondly, what is the initial bullet velocity at a barrel of 250-300mm?
                      Can you answer these questions?
                      If not, then your statement, to put it mildly, is unfounded.
                      Z.Y. During the war, we made an experienced PPSh with an integrated silencer. A special subsonic cartridge was developed for him. It was a sleeve from 7,62x25 TT into which an "L" type bullet was inserted. So, with an initial speed of about 300 m / s, this bullet was quite stable.
              2. Simargl
                Simargl 22 July 2018 09: 52
                0
                [quote = Grille] Easier with the machine. [/ Quote] Not easier, but possible.
                [quote = Grille] I don’t know about the pens, but I don’t know how to do such an operation. [/ Quote] Yes, I don’t know how to saw off a “pipe” strictly perpendicularly without a specific tool. [quote = Grille] By the way, the bullet will be "blown out" not in any direction, but its stabilization will be violated. / quote] what In fact, in any case: the trunk will be sawn off with random curvature.
                [quote = Grille] But no. The problem of the "excess" volume of the sleeve is generally solved elementarily. Try to think with your head. [/ Quote] Well, I thought. So what?
                I could not imagine a peasant who: 1 - got so advanced in the topic that he managed to figure out the filling inserts, 2 - got confused with the preparation of cartridges (and this, in fact, is also a snap, at least).
                So wait with a laugh - while you look funny.
                [quote = Grille] Why couldn’t it? It all depends on the "fist". They are very different people, and therefore everything happens. [/ Quote] Uh ... As far as I understand, you don’t quite understand at what level education and technology in the village of those times were ...
                How old are you? Can you imagine life without electricity, a small amount of metal, literacy at the level of reading by syllables and the simplest arithmetic - among the most literate in the village?
                [quote = Grille] With a steep groove of 31,5 caliber (240mm), it is problematic to “not twist” a 7,62mm caliber bullet. [/ Quote] That is. You don’t understand that the rotation speed depends on the linear speed, and the latter depends on the length of the barrel?
                1. Grid
                  Grid 22 July 2018 10: 15
                  0
                  Yes, I don’t know how to saw off a “pipe” strictly perpendicularly without a specific tool.

                  Well, thank God. Just take it for granted: if you, personally and personally, do not know something or do not know how, then this does not mean that this is impossible.
                  In fact, in any case: the trunk will be sawn off with random curvature.

                  For this particular trunk to a very specific one.
                  Well, I thought. So what?

                  Did you find a solution?
                  I could not imagine a peasant who:

                  You can’t imagine a lot of things.
                  I repeat once again: people are all very different.
                  Uh ... You, as I understand it, do not quite understand at what level education and technology were in the village of those times ...

                  I have a very good idea. But at the same time, I know of cases when exiled students and engineers worked quite blacksmiths in the remote Siberian villages before the revolution ...
                  How old are you? You imagine life without electricity, a small amount of metal,

                  I’m quite enough for years (I suspect that it’s more than you).
                  I have a very good idea. Because it was in places where this same electricity in life has not been seen.
                  Those. You don’t understand that the rotation speed depends on the linear speed, and the latter depends on the length of the barrel?

                  Oh, really?
                  Now tell me, what will be the initial velocity of the Mosin rifle's cutoff bullet with a standard cartridge with a light bullet and with a barrel length of 300 mm?
                  1. Simargl
                    Simargl 22 July 2018 20: 39
                    0
                    Quote: Grille
                    Just take it for granted: if you, personally and personally, do not know something or do not know how, then this does not mean that this is impossible.
                    I am intrigued. How can I make an even cut if the tools are a hacksaw and a vise? Honestly, I'm curious! Enlighten.
                    Quote: Grille
                    For this particular trunk to a very specific one.
                    That is, do you need a sighting? And how to do this, because sighting is not provided for by the "design" (more on this, including - a little lower)?
                    Quote: Grille
                    There are known cases when exiled students and engineers worked quite blacksmiths in the remote Siberian villages before the revolution ...
                    Already better. It remains to deal with the tool. And a necessity.
                    Quote: Grille
                    Oh, really?
                    Yes!
                    Quote: Grille
                    Now tell me, what will be the initial velocity of the Mosin rifle's cutoff bullet with a standard cartridge with a light bullet and with a barrel length of 300 mm?
                    300 ?! Are you serious now ?!
                    The classic edge of Mosinki - immediately after the first ring, i.e. this is a maximum of 20 cm of the rifled portion, but rather -15 cm (exactly see, because they are all different).
                    For 15 cm - 250 m / s approximately, I think.
                    1. Grid
                      Grid 23 July 2018 14: 40
                      0
                      The classic edge of Mosinki - immediately after the first ring, i.e. this

                      Yeah. Baby, you have a very poor idea of ​​what and who did it.
                      And most importantly - WHY ....
                      For 15 cm - 250 m / s approximately, I think.

                      Very shitty think. About 600 m / s.
                      1. Simargl
                        Simargl 23 July 2018 21: 37
                        0
                        Quote: Grille
                        Very shitty think. About 600 m / s.
                        lol
                        Quote: Grille
                        Yeah. Baby, you have a very poor idea of ​​what and who did it.
                        And most importantly - WHY ....
                        What are you saying!
                        Those. the meaning of the cutoff - to hide the device under the clothes I did not understand? Doing it over 70-80 is futile - you can’t hide it, and this is a barrel length of up to 300mm (such are extremely rare).
                        The meaning of a rifle sawn-off is an ersatz gun! No one ever set a target for firing at more than pistol (up to 25 m) distances. No one ever bothered with a serious alteration, otherwise you would have shown the option with a handle in front of the store!
                        So do not try to win the argument with the help of delirium!
                2. Vladimir 5
                  Vladimir 5 26 August 2018 12: 39
                  -2
                  After the WWI, the illiterate in the military affairs of the young peasants there was a minority, many studied in schools of non-commissioned officers, and there was enough knowledge to make a sawn-off shotgun. The sawn-off shotgun was created for hidden wearing and replacing the revolver and for close combat up to 50 meters .. Practice quickly showed the right way to create shotguns, therefore they spread and were not massively replaced with trimmed double-barreled shotguns ...
    3. Michael_Zverev
      Michael_Zverev 21 July 2018 22: 33
      +2
      Is this about "Good word about the old sawn-off shotgun"? laughing
      By the way, the Germans shot for any firearm.
  11. VictorZhivilov
    VictorZhivilov 22 July 2018 15: 51
    0
    Thank you for the article. A very interesting historical essay, but to be honest, I don’t really perceive such weapons, although I don’t argue that it’s interesting. I am more intuitive Spencer carbine.

    It was successfully used by Russian coachmen, defending themselves against “dashing people” and wolves, “naughty” on the endless tracts of the empire, and cowboys, and sheriff deputes, and Sicilian shepherds, and many, many others.

    Modern taxi drivers can only dream of such joy as “Lupara”.
    As for the cowboys and other gunfighters, they had more than a wide selection of diverse small arms:

    I must say that the American cavalry, unlike their European counterparts, rarely used cold weapons, more leaning on the "firearms." They approached the enemy and fired at him with revolvers or double-barrels. The latter had the advantage that a shot sheaf was much easier to gallop on the enemy. Moreover, it was unlikely to shoot more than two times in a cavalry skirmish, when opponents gallop towards each other, and it was easier to reload the shotgun than a revolver. And finally, the revolver cost much more.

    Perhaps the cavalry duel looked something like this, according to Peter Dennis:
    http://warwall.ru/photo/soldaty/grazhdanskaja_voj
    na_v_ssha / 4-0-5795
    In Russia, the popular “Makhnovsk-kulak and partisan shooting” is picking up - comic matches, where the organizers combine shooting competitions with a costume show. Since 2006, such competitions are held regularly, and the main weapon on them is the double barrel.

    Honestly, I don’t want that such a good undertaking would slip into merrymaking. In general, I see the further development of this discipline as shooting from historical weapons divided by three standards: High-speed shooting from a pistol (for a while), shooting from a pistol 100 meters or more, shooting from a carbine for accuracy.

    PS
    Madame in the photo is apparently armed Remington 1866 Derringer.
    http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:TQTDRem66Derringer
    -2.jpg
  12. dokusib
    dokusib 22 July 2018 18: 09
    0
    I read the comments about the shotgun and shotgun. Interesting. I heard that in a foreign country for greater expansion of the fraction, trunks are made rifled. And for such rifles, there are special bullets, half-shell expansions of 12 gauges that allow aimed shooting at distances up to 250-300 meters. The question arises: What are the conditions for the farthest accurate shot from a smoothbore weapon? Will a barrel length of 700 mm give an advantage over a 500 mm barrel? And which bullet (not counting Sovestr) will give the best result? I personally favor Guandandy
    1. Grid
      Grid 22 July 2018 18: 13
      0
      And what are the conditions for the farthest accurate shot from a smoothbore weapon?

      About 3 meters.
  13. falx
    falx 22 July 2018 23: 36
    +1
    For 12 gauges, the optimal long barrel is 500 mm (this is the length indicated in the law “On Weapons” as the minimum allowable). And in the US, a length of 510 mm (24 inches) is standard for shotgun shotguns of self-defense models.
    belay since when is 510 mm equal to 24 inches?

    maybe 610 mm = 24 inches?
    or 20 inches = 508 mm (2 mm extra, but at least not 102 ..)
  14. Tank hard
    Tank hard 23 July 2018 19: 58
    0
    They say that the MP-43 KN has one small, but very unpleasant drawback, when new (small) “triggers” fail, it is very difficult to find a replacement for them, but maybe I'm wrong, and now everything is easy and simple?
  15. Grid
    Grid 24 July 2018 04: 58
    +1
    Simargl,
    Quote: Grille
    Very shitty think. About 600 m / s.
    lol

    What are you saying!

    Laughed?
    By the way, I do not say that. Everything is measured and calculated long before us:

    Taken from: N.G. Menshchikov "Album of designs of cartridges of small and large-caliber automatic weapons (from 6,5mm to 37mm)"
    I hope you learned how to use the charts at school.
    Those. the meaning of the cutoff - to hide the device under the clothes I did not understand?

    The point of making a cut is to change the dimensions of the original product for a specific purpose. And not always the goal is to "hide the device under the clothes."
    No one ever bothered with a serious alteration, otherwise you would have shown the option with a handle in front of the store!

    And why did you decide that I should show you something? By the way, with the handle in front of the store there are still ...
    1. prodi
      prodi 24 July 2018 15: 47
      0
      curious. Suppose, clearly, the increased influence of the end face of the cutoff barrel compared to the standard one on accuracy, but there should be such a curve with a twist: in a full-fledged barrel, the bullet moves slower than it could, but spins more; in a sawn-off shotgun, at a reduced (acceptable) speed, undercooling becomes progressive. Or do I understand poorly, or is the whole family of the rifle cartridges of that time not designed very well?
      1. Grid
        Grid 24 July 2018 16: 18
        0
        Or I don’t understand well

        Very bad.
        1. prodi
          prodi 24 July 2018 16: 43
          0
          I suspect that you didn’t think of a lighter pool in the standard barrel (maybe with lesser steepness of the rifling), and about the progressive twist available (more sloping at the beginning)?
          1. Grid
            Grid 25 July 2018 14: 20
            0
            what you did not think about

            At one time, I thought about a lot of things ...
            But this is far from a topic for comment.
            1. The comment was deleted.
  16. uskrabut
    uskrabut 24 July 2018 13: 49
    0
    A fascinating and informative article. Best wishes to the author. I haven’t gotten my own weapons and, probably, I won’t get them, but I have a reverent attitude to weapons. Why do two trunks like most? Probably for the simplicity of design, low price and traditionality.
  17. d ^ Amir
    d ^ Amir 24 August 2018 19: 37
    0
    I did not even suspect the availability of such a device on sale !!! I thought that TOZ-106 (the kulak’s dream is the death of the chairman) is the only representative of the self-defense smooth-bore ... well, if semi-automatic machines (Vepr, Saiga) are not considered ...