Submarine Guns

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Among the handgun weapons Often you can find designs that do not always fit into our usual framework. In attempts to achieve higher performance from the product or to make it easier to handle, designers introduce both old and new solutions into separate models, which does not always lead to positive results, and more often, while improving some characteristics, others begin to underestimate. In some cases, this is justified for highly specialized weapons, while in the rest such solutions do not find distribution.

Submarine Guns




In general, the development of firearms, as, in principle, any development, can be compared with evolution, during which, as we know, not the most complex survives, but the most adapted, capable of rapid adaptation (in some cases even the simplest, and not complex organism). But, unlike living organisms on our planet, firearms appeared in the air and only relatively recently descended into the water. In this article we will try to get acquainted in more detail with firearms for underwater shooting, namely with pistols.

Since we have touched on such a topic as the development of firearms, before getting acquainted with underwater pistols, you need to recall two very interesting subclasses of “ground” pistols: derringer and peperbox. The designs of these pistols have their drawbacks, including the mass and cost of production, when it comes to weapons with rifled barrels. It should be noted that the mass increases depending on how many times the weapon is able to shoot without reloading. That is, you want to shoot more often - wear more. With the exception of individual highly specialized models of pistols, such designs have long been not used and are considered obsolete. It would be possible to throw such a weapon on the backside stories to flintlock guns, but both designs have found their place where, most likely, there will be more than a dozen years and where none of the now familiar designs of pistols are simply unable to replace them - in water.



The main reason why such structures remain and will remain in demand and irreplaceable is the design of the ammunition for firing under water, or rather, the design of the bullet. It is no secret that the bullets of conventional ammunition very quickly lose their speed in the water, this happens for an understandable reason: the density of water is higher than the density of air. For this reason, after just a couple of meters, such a bullet does absolutely no harm to the enemy, although the cinema tells us the opposite, but they have their own physics there, and we have our own. It seems that there is no solution to this problem, except to increase the mass of ammunition beyond the limits of a reasonable one, but if you cannot change something, then it can always be used.

Many people know such a harmful phenomenon as cavitation, but in this case, on the contrary, it turns out to be useful. A bullet for firing under water has one barely noticeable feature in its design: its nose is not pointed, but blunt. This is necessary so that in the course of its movement the bullet creates a cavitational cavity, roughly speaking, a cavity with reduced pressure, respectively, and lower density. In our case we are talking about the density of water vapor. Thus, the kinetic energy of a bullet is spent for the most part precisely on the creation of a cavitation cavity, and not on overcoming the resistance of the aquatic environment.



Of course, such a decision does not allow to reach the same firing distances as in the air, but instead of the effectiveness of the weapon at a distance of almost point-blank, we already get a distance of a couple of tens of meters. Since it is now a warm season, it is possible to check whether this distance is sufficient to use underwater weapons on one’s own experience. You can simply dive into the water in any reservoir at least to the depth of 3-5 meters and try to look at something in the same twenty meters away from you.

It is easy to guess that to create a cavitation cavity, the bullet itself should have considerable strength, which, in principle, is not a problem, since in our case the stabilization of the bullet by rotating around its axis is not used, which means thinking about how the cuts will interact barrel and body bullets do not need: the barrel is smooth. Stabilized bullet interesting enough and as simple as possible. Due to its increased length, when trying to deviate, the tail portion of the bullet will touch the edge of the cavitation cavity, that is, the zone with increased density, from which it will simply push off. The most primitive example is the children's fun of launching stones into the water, the surface of which they bounce off with the right angle and speed of throw, something like this happens here. The tail part of the bullet when deflected rests on the medium with a higher density and returns to its place.

By the way, it is necessary to mention two-medium weapons, which can be successfully used both on land and under water, when using the same ammunition. It uses a combined stabilization of the bullet, so that when firing in air, the bullet is stabilized by the usual rotation. But you need to understand that such compromises always leave their mark, as a result, such a weapon has both underestimated characteristics when shooting under water, and when shooting on land. This is explained by the shorter bullet, with insufficient length for shooting under water, and this also explains the low characteristics when shooting in the air, since usually the balance of such a bullet is shifted slightly back.

Thus, if we want to obtain the maximum effectiveness of weapons when firing under water, the cartridge for such weapons must be equipped with a sufficiently long bullet, and therefore, the total length of the cartridge will significantly exceed its counterparts for firing in the air. We do not consider the option with a recessed long bullet in the sleeve, since even such a length is not enough to achieve maximum efficiency.

What does a very long cartridge for a weapon design mean? This means that in order to recharge the bolt group, you need to roll back the entire length of the cartridge and a little more, but since we are talking about pistols, such a design will be at least more than the same PepperBox or conductor in which The cartridge has its own individual trunk.

Now that it has become more or less clear why the designs of underwater firing pistols are exactly what they are, you can become more familiar with specific models of weapons.

Underwater pistol Heckler & Koch P11

I would like to single out this gun as the most interesting development among all underwater pistols, since the combination of quite interesting, although in some cases and controversial, decisions clearly distinguish it from the rest. The weapon is not new, developed at the beginning of the 70s of the last century, mass-produced from the 1976 of the year. Until now, this gun is in service and is still quite successfully used.



By design, the P11 underwater firing pistol is a five-barrel dirrenger, with a barrel block detachable. This is the first interesting solution in the design of this weapon. Logically, if it is necessary to reload the weapon under water, it is much easier to change one large block of barrels, rather than manipulate individual cartridges, even if they are fastened together with a single flip-flop. It seems that both the first and second procedures are quite simple, but it must be borne in mind that these actions will not be carried out with bare hands, plus not always in conditions of sufficient illumination. In general, it seems, as well as a plus in the form of a separate exchangeable barrel unit.



But where there are advantages, there are always disadvantages. At first glance, the main disadvantage is the mass and volume of the portable ammunition, which is logical in principle, but if you do not plan to make a mini-war under water, then even the same five shots in case of emergency is enough. Where the big minus is the design of the block of trunks. The fact is that ammunition equipment is manufactured in the factory, and although theoretically, if you have direct hands, you can do it yourself, there will still be a problem in the form of lack of ammunition. That is, we can talk about the lack of replaceable blocks of trunks.

The design of the block of trunks is not super complex. Muzzle cuts are covered with membranes that the bullet pierces when fired. In the breech of the barrel there is a thread in which ammunition is screwed. The most attentive people may have noticed that the barrel units on different images of pistols may differ, both in their aiming aids and in their length, and the reason for this lies in another feature of this weapon.



The fact is that the interchangeable blocks of barrels are equipped not only with cartridges for underwater firing, but also with ammunition for firing in air. To distinguish these blocks in the first place possible sights. If there is no question, how can you aim with such a small rear sight and a front sight under water, then the block of barrels is filled with cartridges for underwater shooting and vice versa.

For firing in the air, the barrel units can be equipped with two types of ammunition: conventional and armor-piercing, which is interesting, both versions of ammunition have spindle-shaped bullets, although in the first variant the initial speed of the bullet is only 190 meters per second. The initial bullet speed for underwater shooting is 110-120 meters per second.

The mass of the block of barrels is approximately 500 grams, which casts doubt on the advisability of wearing additional blocks of barrels for firing in air. Thus, the ability to make 10 shots will result in one kilogram of additional weight. This is comparable to a full-fledged modern pistol, the store of which accommodates a larger number of cheaper ammunition, but the devil is back in the details.

All cartridges for the P11 pistol have one interesting feature in the form of a plastic pallet that moves along the bore along with the bullet and locks the powder gases inside the barrel. That is, when firing under water, the shooter will not be unmasked with powder gases escaping to the surface of the water after the shot, and in the case of firing in air, the shot will be absolutely silent. Against the background of almost complete noiselessness, the advantage of a separate weapon for shooting in the air no longer seems so obvious.



Finally, the most interesting feature of the P11 pistol is the way in which the powder composition of the cartridge ignites. No matter how strange it may sound, but the weapon that is in the water, and more often salty, is electric. The initiating composition ignites not due to the deformation of the primer, but during the combustion of a tungsten coil, through which an electric current is passed.



The gun is powered by two nine-volt batteries. Immediately, OCA pistols that have found mass distribution in Russia as a means of self-defense come to mind. True switching in the gun P11 is no longer carried out by electronics, but mechanically when the switch contacts are rotated each time the trigger is pulled. It is difficult to say that the mechanics or electronics are more reliable in this case, but it is easier and cheaper to organize the mechanical switching, especially since the dimensions of the gun allow it.



The weight of a fully equipped pistol is 1200 grams, its length is equal to 200 millimeters, the same height, without taking into account sighting devices. In general, the pistol is not small, which is both a plus and a minus weapon. The diameter of the bullets is 7,62 millimeter, since a plastic pallet is used that locks the powder gases in the barrel bore, the diameter of the barrel bore is larger.

The effective distances for using this weapon are 15 and 30 meters, for firing under water and in the air, respectively. The last figure suggests the lack of stabilization of bullets of cartridges for firing in the air, although it is quite possible to organize the interaction of grooves in the barrel channel and the plastic pallet.

If you look at all the disadvantages and advantages of such weapons, it is not difficult to see that the advantages of the P11 submarine gun are more than disadvantages, which is also confirmed by the fact that the weapon has been in service for more than 30 years.

Domestic underwater shooting pistol SPP-1 (SPP-1М)

Usually when comparing pistols for underwater shooting, this domestic sample is not presented in the best light. Indeed, in the aggregate of new and interesting solutions, Р11 looks almost like the weapon of the future, against the background of our nondescript and not to be recognized, not the most beautiful weapon. But not every "SUV" will take place where the "loaf" will travel, so let's understand in more detail, and not evaluate the weapon in terms of its appearance.



In 1968, the task was to create weapons for swimmers. Along with the above-described cartridges with elongated bullets creating a cavitation cavity around themselves, work was also being done on the creation of a reactive bullet. Taking into account what we see now for the armament of our army and foreign ones, the bullet-missiles have not been applied not only in the air environment, but also in the water one. And although weapon models for such munitions were not only developed, but also produced, they did not receive any distribution, since such a construction requires room for acceleration in order to gain enough speed to defeat the enemy. Plus, among other things, the cost in production also plays a small role, and if a cheaper version of the ammunition shows acceptable results, then it is obvious in whose favor to tilt the scales when choosing.



The SPP-1 pistol was developed by the great-nephew of the famous designer Sergey Simonov Gavrilovich Vladimir and his wife Elena. The development of a new SPS ammunition, with the metric designation 4,5х39, is listed for Sazonov and Kravchenko. You can’t say a lot about ammunition, but you need to immediately notice that, despite the same sleeve length, this cartridge has nothing to do with the common 5,45x39 and 7,62x39. The cartridge case has a rim and has no groove. The bullet is a steel bar with a length of 115 millimeters and a weight of 13,2 grams, as is clear from the metric designation of ammunition, caliber 4,5 millimeters. For the convenience of reloading these ammunition are placed in a plate holder.



The very same gun in its design is derringer in the most lightweight non-cuff performance. Shock trigger trigger, self-cocking. When you press the trigger, the firing pin is cocked and rotated 90 degrees, followed by a stall, a blow to the primer and, as a result, a shot.



And the safety bracket and the trigger against the background of the usual models of pistols look excessively large, but it is necessary for the convenient use of weapons in a diving suit. It is for this reason that the fuse switch is made not a small detail. The switch itself has a fuse switch in three positions, in its bottom it allows you to fire a weapon, on average, it puts the weapon on the safety catch and in the top one opens the block of barrels for reloading.

If we compare it with the German P11 reloading process, then our WBS-1 will lose. Then you don’t have any skill, but to open a block of barrels, extract the spent cartridges and insert new ammunition, while trying to combine the chamber chamber 4 with 4 cartridges, which will dangle in all directions because of its length, a task that requires iron nerves, especially considering that all this will be done not in the most peaceful atmosphere. Replacing the trunk block itself is much easier and faster. But it should be noted that this weapon is not for the destruction of enemy crowds prushchas on you, but for several shots, so it’s not worth taking for a significant minus, as, in principle, it is possible to make only 4 shots against 5 shots from a German pistol.

It seems to be a much more significant drawback that powder gases, when they surface, perfectly mark the location of the shooter, which is not in the German weapon. On the other hand, it is not always possible to note that, and where it gurgled there, even despite the volume of powder gases. However, it cannot be disregarded that the P11 pistol when locking the powder gases also has the possibility of silent and flameless shooting in the air atmosphere, which is already its clear advantage over SPP-1. Which, by the way, with the same ammunition used for underwater shooting, is effective in firing on land at distances up to 30 meters. If we talk about the distance of firing, the domestic pistol wins a few meters under German water. With equal depths of use, in the air, the results are approximately the same, if you do not take into account the work of the bullet itself on the target, which will be somewhat different for long “nails”.

If we take the weight and dimensions of the pistols, then the domestic pistol is easier; however, the comparison in terms of mass and dimensions is not entirely correct, since despite the general similarity of the structures, the implementation of these structures is different. The curb weight of the SPP-1 pistol is 950 grams, while its length is 244 millimeters.



Separately, it is worth mentioning that at the moment the SPP-1 pistol exists in a modernized form, under the designation SPP-1М. There are no significant differences between the old and the modernized model, the main differences relate to the trigger mechanism. Externally, the pistols are distinguished by an increased safety bracket and trigger.

To be objective, it turns out that the domestic pistol in terms of its characteristics is not inferior to the German, but behind the latter there is a clear advantage in the form of noiselessness.

Other little-known models of guns for underwater shooting

Considered two pistols of German and Soviet design is not the only weapon in the class of pistols for firing under water. Despite the fact that the weapon is very narrowly specialized, there are a lot of interesting, but little-known developments. Among these developments there are both relatively new models of weapons and fairly old ones.

Chinese submarine gun QSS-05

Judging by the designation of weapons, this gun appeared in the 2005 year, but the first mention of it refers to the 2010 year, when the gun came into view of the cameras. It should be noted that even at the moment, little is known about weapons, but even what is known permits certain conclusions to be drawn.

You can see the general similarity of the design with the Soviet SPP-1, however there are some differences. The main difference between pistols is that Chinese weapons have only three barrels. In addition, the weapon has a different angle of inclination of the handle to hold, but the options for the implementation of the trigger can be enough to talk about copying. What can be said with confidence is that the principle of using the cavitation cavity has remained unchanged. Although the gun and used ammunition different from the Soviet, namely the same cartridges that are used in the machine for underwater shooting, caliber 5,8 millimeters.



Whether it is worth referring to this pistol as a copy, or considering it an analogue to Soviet weapons is a personal matter of everyone, but the fact that the gun itself was created explicitly with an eye to SPP-1 is indisputable.

Yugoslav SSU single shot gun

This rather controversial development was described several times in magazines devoted to weapons and military equipment, despite the fact that the journalists gave them quite a high rating, the pistol did not go into mass production. The reasons for this lie not so much in the situation in the country, at the time of the completion of development and all testing, but in the fact that in practice this weapon was lost to both the Soviet pistol and the German one.



The main drawback of the weapon is its single charge, although on the whole, the Yugoslav designers moved in the right direction. This weapon was to be the main for swimmers, both in water and on land, in addition, with the help of the same weapon it was possible to give a signal, using it as a rocket launcher. This was all realized, of course, with the use of various ammunition equipment. Generally speaking, to be objective, we are talking about a rocket launcher, which has significantly expanded its capabilities through the use of different cartridges.

The cartridge itself was a large thick-walled sleeve in which a long bullet was placed. It should be noted that the images that are available now are somewhat different from reality. So you can pay attention to the pointed tip of the bullets, with which the ammunition in the water will not show the best results. In addition, the cartridge had such a feature as the locking of powder gases in the barrel bore, which ensured complete noiseless operation in air and ruled out the breakthrough of powder gases in water. Based on the available images, we can conclude that the locking of the powder gases was “deaf”, in fact, they were gradually released through several holes specially designed for this.

In principle, in ammunition, everything is usually not surprising, but some points raise questions. For example, the entire cartridge is assembled on threaded connections, and even the cap is screwed separately. Obviously, this was done so that the cartridges could later be reused after reloading, and the rather complicated design for the ammunition, which even includes an intermediate drummer, was required to ensure the tightness of the cartridge with a long stay in an aqueous medium at high pressure.

The whole structure looks really interesting, primarily due to the sectional pictures, but this gun is unlikely to be regarded as a full-fledged competitor with multiply charged ones, although this weapon is worthy of attention as a minimum for its own Yugoslav gunsmiths.

A total of 5 weapons were produced, not one of them was used in combat.

Barra's Foam Gun

In 1969, the designer from AAI finished working on his underwater gun. Although this weapon is often called a revolver, in fact it is a six-barred derringer. The weapon itself is of no particular interest, it is simple and even to some extent primitive. The only thing that deserves attention is the casing around the block of trunks, which is made of foam. The volume of the casing was chosen so as to get closer to zero buoyancy, why it was necessary remains a mystery, because of the increased dimensions of the weapon it was not only inconvenient to use on land, but also when moving under water a large area gave more resistance. In the end, so that the swimmer did not lose the gun, it could be tied with a cord, which would have less negative consequences.



It is interesting that although the very idea of ​​locking the powder gases in the case did not belong to the designer, he was the first to use it for underwater weapons, which, as we can see, largely determined the further development of this class in the West. It is worth noting that, despite the use of the cavitation effect, the effective range of use of the weapon did not exceed 10 meters, which can be explained by a rather large caliber for this weapon - 9 mm. In service, this gun was only in Belgium, where he was later replaced by the German Р11.

"Rockets" instead of bullets

Separately, it is necessary to mention the use of rockets instead of elongated bullets. Basically, such an idea was implemented in a weapon with a long barrel, since such a projectile needed time to pick up speed, and the use of the barrel made it possible to do it more quickly. However, there were options for short-barreled weapons. For example, the Stevens revolver, which is known only that the caliber was equal to 9 millimeters. In addition to this revolver, mention can be made of the German BUW and BUW-2 pistols, which also used jet ammunition.



The main disadvantage of such weapons was that the bullet needed a certain distance to gain sufficient speed to defeat the enemy, while in the aquatic environment the effective range of use was limited. As a result, this leads to the fact that the effective use of weapons is in a very narrow range.

Conclusion

Recently, there is often information that here gunsmiths made a breakthrough in the field of underwater firearms, but later it turns out that the design of already existing ammunition was simply repeated with sufficient changes to avoid paying for the use of another's patent.

Most often, everything revolves around bullets of various shapes, which are recessed into the sleeve for a part of their length almost to the bottom of the sleeve, which, although it reduces the overall length of the ammunition, does not allow placing such cartridges in the pistol handle. In addition, such a decision is just another compromise, which is most often used to make it possible to use ammunition for underwater firing in conventional weapons, designed for firing conventional ammunition. This means that variants of ammunition with longer bullets will show better results.

The conclusion suggests itself that the structures described above will remain in service for a very long time and will be repeated in one form or another over and over again, at least until the designers come up with a new way to "beat" physics.

Sources of photos and information:
http://weaponland.ru
http://modernfirearms.net
http://mash-xxl.info
https://mikle1.livejournal.com
http://army-news.ru
https://www.nn.ru
28 comments
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  1. +5
    19 July 2018 15: 15
    pistols for underwater shooting winked When will the COP be for the civilian market? How long should I wait winked ? Need to develop this market segment good Moreover, the demand for it is huge. Customers have long been waiting for the cancellation of the barrel length in ZOO good You look and appear Super Shorty smooth-bore revolvers under 410 good
    1. +7
      19 July 2018 17: 48
      You manage to bring down your own kind with traumatic people, and you ask for a firearm. As Pavel Volya said, first carry a wooden gun for three years, then a water gun, then a gas one and if it doesn’t break then we’ll go over to the trauma.
      1. +4
        19 July 2018 18: 13
        Does Merkava live in Russia? winked lol Pavel Volya is your life landmark? winked Or is typical Russophobia again a special mentality? And others? winked
        1. +4
          19 July 2018 18: 22
          I have a name, Andrei. This is the bitter truth about weapons in general, in Russia there are a lot of problems on this subject and have not been resolved yet. Pavel Volodya is a standardist and everything, he just had a monologue about that. And for you I am a respectable Russian Jew , and I am a racist only in relation to other racists, and my mentality is much closer to Russian than you think.
          1. +7
            19 July 2018 19: 01
            There are no problems with weapons in Russia winked All so-called problems are isolated cases intensely inflated in the media. winked And presented Russophobi as you look at their special mentality, savages drunkards are injured by injuries smile Give them the opportunity to defend themselves because of the savagery. stop In fact, people are simply inspired to see Tel Avidion how scary it will be to live, the cop will be even worse winked Although citizens have on their hands Tigers Binnel and more powerful types of rifles, however, I don’t know any of my friends who behaved inappropriately wink So the problem of weapons in Russia does not exist wink
          2. +7
            20 July 2018 00: 21
            I live in Russia and fully support your position !!! already discussed this topic somehow, I can’t understand why people under this article are trying to raise the topic of the Constitutional Court for the civilian market again? I’ll say one occurrence of injuries has already affected the health of their owners and possible owners .. he himself took away the injury a couple of races and immediately beat when I suspected that the man had an injury behind his belt even though it was possible to talk ... and now the harsh truth - if allowed KS and I will know that for many I will not just beat him, but also finish him off so that I would definitely get to the hospital and don’t remember who jumped on his head ... so calm down the fighters !!! man is a friend to man, comrade and brother do not complicate the situation and do not forget that a huge number of flawed, notorious and humiliated people will run after the trunks and feel confident that they will lead to rivers of blood and those around them and themselves ...
            1. +5
              20 July 2018 01: 44
              Quote: aws4
              I live in Russia and fully support your position !!! already discussed this topic somehow, I can’t understand why people under this article are trying to raise the topic of the Constitutional Court for the civilian market again? I’ll say one occurrence of injuries has already affected the health of their owners and possible owners .. he himself took away the injury a couple of races and immediately beat when I suspected that the man had an injury behind his belt even though it was possible to talk ... and now the harsh truth - if allowed KS and I will know that for many I will not just beat him, but also finish him off so that I would definitely get to the hospital and don’t remember who jumped on his head ... so calm down the fighters !!! man is a friend to man, comrade and brother do not complicate the situation and do not forget that a huge number of flawed, notorious and humiliated people will run after the trunks and feel confident that they will lead to rivers of blood and those around them and themselves ...

              hi Bravo good , comrades Merkava-2bet and Aws4, you can immediately see people with a sober and realistic understanding of the problems of the Constitutional Court and a somewhat flawed psychology of some notorious fellow citizens!
              He himself more than once observed a dramatic change in the behavior of ordinary citizens, regardless of gender and age, who first took up arms - many of them tried to shoot at something or at some defenseless living creature right away, and probably would have shot at of a person, if they knew for sure that they won’t be anything for it (on our street, one big-eyed “kid” -shortman shot an air rifle at the kids passing by his high-rise building, while this mean “shkodnik”, after a serious wound of a student ml dshih classes, finally not calculate and do not catch the police)!
            2. +1
              20 July 2018 05: 10
              Alarmist winked I will answer with one simple phrase wink Coward does not play hockey wink Once again, alarmists with womanish gossip jumped here lol Rivers of blood lol Again begin to whine about how scary to live fool I have always been amused by such people who like to vilify their people and expose their country as savages and inadequacies winked lol When you read such Rambas in quotation marks that run around and supposedly take away the weapons registered under the law, there is nothing but at least a smile laughing These supermen don't cause lol In the know that illegal possession of weapons is actually an article winked Could write easier they say I’m so-and-so terribly afraid of everything that just looks visually like a weapon lol Therefore, it is categorically against Russian citizens being allowed any weapons winked But cheer up you'll be our secret tactical weapon lol In case of war, we will throw you and other hoplophobes to the rear to the enemy where you will run around the enemy’s military units lol and stupefied screaming and take away their personal weapons lolThus, you will at least bring some benefit to our country. lol
              1. +2
                20 July 2018 07: 34
                Ooh, my friend, you’ve been diagnosed with smileycophobia, extensive hallucination and paranoia, with rotten racism. It’s probably a difficult childhood, it’s probably been beaten often in the yard, since there are such reports. I hope that a drunk creature with injuries comes up and shoots you a couple of times and then You will say thanks that he doesn’t have Nagan, TT or PM, but all the best.
                1. avt
                  +4
                  21 July 2018 18: 45
                  Quote: merkava-2bet
                  Ooh, my friend you have a diagnosis, smileycophobia,

                  Azochenway! When you are discouraged in the fight against her, try, according to the testament of Julian Semenonov-Liander, embedded in the phrase of the hero of his story Shtirlitsa, “Turn this idea into your head” - this is the worst thing that could be done - to resolve the trauma and gas. Immediately lowered the bar, Like ,, not lethal, "like a fist to wave and ... really crippled and even nailed some. request Since, unlike the short-barrel, many did not take seriously as an adult. For me, to ban gas and injury and really tighten the rules for the short-barrel. And getting a weapon is not a problem now. The problem is to get rid of the consequences of the application, even when you didn’t get some water to break into your house, because you want to eat, you have nowhere to spend the night and you want to ask -Where does the money lie?
                  1. 0
                    31 August 2018 13: 41
                    Semyon Aleksandrovich Lyandres (1907, Borovino, Igumen Uyezd, Minsk Province [1] - 1968, Moscow) - Soviet statesman, organizer of publishing, editor, literary critic. The father of the writer Julian Semenov.
                    Semyon Lyndres was born in Borovino in a Jewish family. Father, Alexander Pavlovich Lyandres (1876-1940), was a rafter of wood; mother, Maria Danilovna Lyandres (1877-1963), is a housewife [2]. He graduated from the Industrial Academy.

                    lol
              2. +1
                20 July 2018 23: 56
                clever, yes, you’re my golden man, judging by your reaction and what you wrote and how you wrote already says that you are not contraindicated to a person who is unable to conduct a normal conversation .. but about what you wrote about me I will answer you again - selected and did not even allow to shoot! it’s just a lesson that was good in life, like that .. a conflict situation, I didn’t see an opponent in a man and just turned away without seeing the danger for which I got a knife in my leg .. after that I keep any stomp in sight and if there is the slightest suspicion of injury or a knife I beat without waiting for development, and now imagine how I will act knowing that any damage is absolutely legal with Beretta or Glock ... I can repeat it but at least send me to a hospital and preferably with a subsequent disability .. I know only about the law I understand where do this? go write me a statement to the police, you are our lawyer, a real citizen of the Russian Federation, I’m not so stupid as to leave something like that .. I simply discharged one race and gave it away, and I don’t have the habit of walking with weapons even in the car I drive a stick or a gantry ... at the expense of fears here you contradict yourself .. why do you need a COP ??? why carry injuries? Aren't you afraid not to get out of the situation? my comrades have real men, they have guns and injuries but they never carry them with them and do not carry them in a wheelbarrow, somehow raised the topic of why they need them and answered all as one that in rare cases it’s going out with my family or they take a long trip with my family, I understand and support them in this .. on the other hand, I worked for two years with one notorious chakhlik and often went with his car with him, so in case of any misunderstanding on the road he immediately reached for the trunk and the most it is surprising that where a misunderstanding could remain for him as he it turned him into a conflict because he was sure of the magical property of this thing and it gave him confidence .. well, for the last time I admit honestly - but I'm not Rambo or even Rambo's sofa! wink and you’re very lucky, by the way, that I’m not Rimbaud, but the one who believes that a person is friend to friend, comrade and brother, and the presence of CS in the hands of the population will further alienate us from this simple truth .. so if I were Rimbaud I would find you and kick you would you have ears laughing
          3. +4
            20 July 2018 01: 37
            Quote: merkava-2bet
            This is the bitter truth about weapons in general, in Russia there are many problems on this subject and have not yet been resolved.

            Do not be offended by this "short-shot, preoccupied"! In Russia there are enough such "inadequate" (as, probably, everywhere ...)
            1. +1
              20 July 2018 07: 52
              And no one did not offend him wink In Russia, alas, there are enough inadequacies with a slave mentality who like to project their hoplophobia on the whole people winked They say let the slave himself and the rest will be slaves lol Unfortunately, there are enough such unique ones everywhere lol
          4. +1
            24 July 2018 06: 28
            This is the bitter truth about weapons in general, in Russia there are many problems on this subject and have not yet been resolved.

            Yes, not resolved. But if you want, you can have quite serious units.
            You know, I have a very serious contraption in my SVT safe. But I don’t have any desire to kill anyone in the district ...
        2. +4
          20 July 2018 01: 30
          Quote: RaptorF22
          Does Merkava live in Russia? Pavel Volya is your life landmark? Or is typical Russophobia again a special mentality? And others?

          What kind of bullshit? request And here is "Russophobia"? fool The person in the case speaks correctly! And you like any hell, if only to get the gun in the playful hands!
      2. +6
        19 July 2018 22: 44
        Quote: merkava-2bet
        You traumatists manage to bring down their own kind, and you ask for a firearm.
        Media outlets inflate 2-3 cases per year throughout the country. But I agree: injuries need to be banned. A weapon should be a weapon with an appropriate attitude towards it.
        And normal laws on self-defense are needed.
        And the enforcement of laws.
  2. +6
    19 July 2018 15: 56
    hi I read the introduction and the style of presentation I immediately realized that it was Mark Poddubny, finally found fellow , and it was just right to ask the admins of the site where is our AlexMark ?! smile
    So it makes sense to me in the near future, not to be lazy, but as promised, I’ll add the second part and the end of my lengthy commentary on your, comrade Mark, Article about the “ideal gun” with your own vision of this relevant topic raised by you winked ?
    I am glad that you have not forgotten the track to the VO website, dear Mark Poddubny, and, I hope, will please your readers more than once with interesting Finds ?! Already in anticipation of the future (now I hasten to the “right”) of a leisurely reading of this Article of yours (already, even at a quick look, interesting and informative for me)!
    I wish you creative successes, with which I am sincerely glad, Health and sales of everything that you have planned for yourself! good
    1. +5
      19 July 2018 17: 45
      I join the above kind words addressed to Mark and thanks for the interesting review of underwater pistols. hi
  3. 0
    19 July 2018 18: 40
    Interesting article
  4. 0
    19 July 2018 20: 37
    The article is very secondary. Here on the site about underwater weapons was written more than once. for instance


    https://topwar.ru/38696-ognestrelnoe-oruzhie-boev
    yh-plovcov.html

    Just look a little
  5. +5
    19 July 2018 21: 31
    Comments are emotional, but on the topic? A weapon dependent on two batteries?
    1. +3
      20 July 2018 03: 26
      Yeah. And in ergonomics and sizes, it is very reminiscent of a screwdriver.
      Thanks to Mark for the photo showing this German miracle in his hand.
      1. 0
        31 August 2018 13: 47
        Well, Glock started with tools laughing
  6. +4
    20 July 2018 02: 13
    Actually, now there is also a shorter cartridge for underwater weapons. This is a cartridge: 5,45 x 39 mm PSP for a "double-fire" submachine gun ... Bullet weight-16 gr.; Length-53 mm Creating a gun for this the cartridge (if necessary), I think, will not be a problem ...
    1. 0
      22 July 2018 21: 45
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      Actually, now there is a shorter cartridge for underwater weapons. This cartridge: 5,45 x 39 mm PSP [/ thumb]

      There is an even shorter cartridge, I came across only the mention of the cartridge itself and a photo for the GSh-18 pistol. The diameter of the arrow is 4,5 mm, special plastic is used as a casing ring, the topic is officially closed.
      1. +3
        23 July 2018 01: 02
        "Shortening" cartridges for "underwater" weapons has its limits! There is a meaning behind which "shortening" becomes meaningless! GSH-18 is not an "underwater" gun .... and uses 9 x 19 mm cartridges. A PSP cartridge with a weight of 16gr.has a length of 53 mm ... there is a training PSP-U with a weight of 8gr .... from here we can conclude that the PSP-U is slightly shorter (only "interrogative" ... I have no exact data. )
        1. 0
          6 October 2018 15: 53
          long ago they made a revolver under this cartridge. what do you have in the picture. on 6 rounds in a drum, the same as on the ADF go cartridges PSP. but the trunk is long 20 cm. in any case, this is a good alternative. the more so because he can shoot the same 5,45 * 39 mm cartridges in air. just under water, this weapon beyond 20 m is not relevant. which is pretty decent for the water. and why there is no demand for that gun, but because it’s new and not much better than the old, 4 barrel SPP-1. and in short the topic was closed, saying that the impact is strong. It’s better to shoot from SPP-1. and the number of shots is not much superior to him. but its production is harder and more expensive. So they stayed on SPP-1. but if they want to. let them write to the tuleks. they will be presented with one copy for running in. and then the PSP cartridges themselves are also not cheap. everything rests on them. and in one case, the revolver is better, if the cartridge cuts off and does not give a shot, then by pressing the trigger. the hook, as it were, continues to fire, the drum just turns and substitutes another cartridge under the drummer. it’s just that the new 5,45 PSP caliber cartridges are expensive, and the old-arrow-shaped SPP-1 shoots better.