TKR "Kuznetsov". Comparison with NATO aircraft carriers. H. 4

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In a previous article, we described deck tactics aviation when solving various problems: PLO and Defense connections, as well as the destruction of a detachment of enemy ships. Accordingly, our next goal will be to try to understand how successfully such tasks can be solved by the means at the disposal of the Gerald R. Ford, Charles de Gaulle, Queen Elizabeth and Admiral fleet Soviet Union Kuznetsov ”, whose name we traditionally abbreviate to“ Kuznetsov ”. And for this it is necessary to give at least a brief description of these means, and therefore in the material offered to your attention we will pay a little attention to carrier-based aviation.

Multipurpose Fighter

Strangely enough, the comparison of the capabilities of the Super Hornet, Rafale-M and the MiG-29KR is still considerably difficult even at the level of the main characteristics, because their data of technical characteristics published in the open press differ significantly. For example, data on speed is different - if for the same “Super Hornet” most domestic sources report the maximum speed of 1,8М, then some imported ones are 1,6М. The same applies to the weight of an empty aircraft - “there are opinions” about 13 387 kg and 14 552 kg (and this not counting the fact that “on the Internet” there is also a mass of “curb” aircraft in 14 790 kg).



At the same time, it is necessary to understand that it is impossible to make any kind of full-fledged comparison of combat aircraft, based only on their main tactical and technical characteristics. For example, the same load on the wing is certainly an important indicator, but its calculations are associated with a lot of features.

Of course, it’s easy to make head-on calculations - for example, the wing areas of the Super Hornet and the MiG-29KR are 46,45 and 45 square meters, respectively, and we know that the normal take-off weight of the Super Hornet is 21 320 kg, MiG-29KR - 18 290 kg. It seems to be enough to divide one by the other (getting 459 and 406 kg / sq. M., Respectively) and it is possible to draw conclusions about the advantage of the MiG-29KR, because the lower the wing load, the more maneuverable the aircraft can be.


MiG-29CUB


But if we go to the same calculation on the other hand, we will see that the mass of the empty “Super Hornet” hardly differs from that of the MiG-29KR - 13 387 kg versus 13 700 kg. Accordingly, the normal take-off mass of the Super Hornet is calculated for a much greater payload than the MiG-29KR - 7 933 kg versus 4 590 kg. That is, it turns out that the normal take-off weight of the Super Hornet is full internal fuel tanks (according to various data 6 354 - 6 531 kg) plus payload in 1 400 - 1580 kg. And the MiG-29KR normal take-off weight does not even imply full refueling (internal tank capacity - 4 750 kg). And if we take, and calculate the load on the wing of the Super Hornet with the same payload as the MiG-29KR (that is, for 17 977 kg), we get 387 kg / sq. m. - that is, it turns out that for this indicator, the “Super Hornet” seems to be the winner.

But this, again, if our initial data is correct - the fact is that the RSK MiG official website does not provide information about the mass of an empty aircraft, it is taken from Wikipedia (without reference to sources), and the wiki, as you know, is often mistaken. What if 13 700 kg for the MiG-29KR is the curb weight of the aircraft, which should not be compared with the Super Hornet 13 387 kg, but with the 14 790 kg? In addition, the equality of the mass of the payload is not at all synonymous with the equality of opportunities it provides.

For example, the practical range of the MiG-29KR is 2 000 km. At the same time, the majority of domestic sources provide the Super Hornet’s flight range (without specifying exactly which range is meant) 1 280 km, which is clearly underestimated, but in addition, the “combat range” indicator is often given - 2 346 km (while usually there should be a note that we are talking about a flight “one way” without using outboard fuel tanks, but with a load of two airborne siders, “Sidewinder”). Can we compare these ranges - 2 000 km and 2 346 km? It’s very conditional, since we don’t know how to calculate them (for example, payload mass when calculating the practical range for the MiG-29KR), but in principle these figures are comparable. But then it turns out that in 1,33 a larger supply of Super Hornet’s fuel provides him with only 17% increase in flight range — that is, taking equal payloads for Super Hornet and MiG-29KR, we do not equalize these planes in capabilities, so as with the same fuel supply, the American will fly less, which means such a comparison is incorrect. If we introduce the corresponding amendment, then the load on the wing of the MiG-29KR and the Super Hornet is almost equal.



But the fact is that, as you know, the architecture of our fighters, starting with the MiG-29 and Su-27, implied the carrier fuselage - that is, the fuselage of these aircraft participated in the creation of lift along with the wing, while the American designers did not. Accordingly, when comparing the MiG-29KR, it is necessary to take into account not only the area of ​​the wing, but also the area of ​​the “participating in the work” fuselage, which we, naturally, cannot do if there is a shortage of data. As a result, in our calculation, the wing load for the MiG-29KR is unreasonably overestimated, but it’s impossible to say how much - unfortunately - nevertheless, we again come to the conclusion that according to this indicator, the MiG-29KR is still ahead of the “Super Hornet” . However, maybe there are some other factors that we did not take into account?

Based on the information available to the author, we can draw the following conclusions. The Americans, creating the "Super Hornet", sought in the first place to get a strike aircraft, which, in addition, would also have the ability to conduct air combat. In the USSR / Russia, designing MiG-29 and its latest modifications, the MiG-29М / М2, sought to create, first of all, a fighter that, in addition to fighting in the air, would also be able to strike land and sea targets. And, probably, only the French tried to create an “honest” station wagon, which is equally well capable of doing both.

Therefore, apparently, of the three aforementioned aircraft, the most maneuverable should be considered the MiG-29KR, and the F / A-18 E / F Super Hornet, while Rafale-M in both Cases is intermediate between them.

If we experience such difficulties even with the basic characteristics of the aircraft, then comparing their avionics seems altogether prohibitively complex. The most modern radars installed on Rafale-M and Super Hornet, RBE-2AA and APG-79, allow detecting a fighter-type target at a distance of 110-130 km. MiG-29KR, equipped with one of the many modifications of the radar "Beetle", as if it could be the same - for him the detection range of the fighter into the forward hemisphere is also 110-130 km. But what is meant by “fighter target”? On foreign radar, there are opinions that it is a goal with an EPR 1 sq. M., Or maybe 3 sq. M., Or even F-15C with an EPR 5 sq. M. The most interesting thing is that there is no way to find out where the numbers come from, because the same Raytheon, the permanent radar manufacturer for American combat aircraft, does not officially disclose the performance characteristics of its “instruments”. As a rule, data on the range of American radar systems are given with reference to specialized magazines devoted to aviation mathematics and which, in turn, refer to advertising data of the Raytheon company, but it is absolutely impossible to find these data. At the same time, for domestic radar stations, the detection range is usually indicated for targets with 3 square-wave EPR. m., but earlier, in the good old days, it happened that 5 sq.m. and sometimes for some reason 2 sq.m. So it turns out that there seems to be a lot of numbers, but a bit of sense from this, because depending on the EPR, which we substitute to the ranges sounded above, or the BGS of the MiG-29K is much worse than what is installed on the “Super Hornet” and "Rafale M", or approximately equivalent, and either completely surpasses the potential enemy in the head. But this is not all, because the methods of calculating the range can vary greatly: for example, radar with an active phased array can increase the target detection range, narrowing the search sector, and it is not known for which mode the detection ranges are given, etc. In addition, starting from some distances, closer to the extreme range of the radar, there is no guarantee, but the probability that the radar reflected from the target will be accepted by the radar and the target position can be identified (detection quality). That is, with an increase in the range, the probability decreases, and by playing with this parameter, it is also possible to achieve a “paper” increase in the target detection range.

Most of the data suggest (but not asserting reliably) that, in terms of its capabilities, the Zhuk-ME, installed on the MiG-23KR, is inferior to both the French RBE-2AA and the American APG-79 — most likely that the domestic radar can detect the distance to 130 km is the target with the EPR 3 sq.m., while the foreign ones is 1 sq.m., and the target detection range in 3 sq.m. they reach 158 km.


Fighters "Rafale M" on board the aircraft carrier "Harry Truman"


For a long time, the unconditional advantage of domestic aircraft was the optical-location stations (OLS), which made it possible to detect enemy aircraft and provide target designation rockets without turning on the radar. The Rafale-M also has an OLS, but its performance characteristics, alas, are unknown, but the Super Hornets did not have an OLS (if you do not count as such the suspended containers that provide guidance weapons against ground or surface targets, but, as far as the author knows, are useless in aerial combat). By systems EW, today we should probably consider parity, although it is possible that domestic electronic warfare systems are superior to their imported counterparts.

As for the newest F-35C, which will come into service in the future with US carrier-based aviation, it seems that, like the Super Hornet, it is primarily a strike aircraft, and only the second is a fighter. Many of its performance characteristics overlap to a large extent with those of the Super Hornet. Of all of the above, the F-35C is the heaviest - the mass of an empty aircraft reaches 15 785 kg. It must be said that the F-35C wing has the largest area, among its fellow F-35А and F-35В, but nevertheless, the wing with a normal take-off mass is significantly higher than that of the MiG-29КР and approaches the “Super Hornet” . The engine power of the F-35C is lower than that of the twin-engine Super Hornet, and the mass is larger, so it is not surprising that the F-35C loses both the Super Hornet and the MiG-29KR in terms of thrust ratio. All of the above indicates that the F-35C has few chances to "twist" the aforementioned planes in close combat. At the same time, the F-35C payload was lower than that of the Super Hornet record holder - 14 535 kg versus 16 550 kg.

True, the F-35C's internal fuel tanks significantly outperform all other packers - it holds 8 960 kg of fuel, which is 40% more than the Super Hornet following it - and Rafale M and MiG2-9KR are generally content 4 500 - 4 750 kg. However, the F-35C is not too superior to their range, which is 2 220 (according to other data - 2 520) km. Perhaps the reason for this lies in not the best aerodynamics of the F-35C, caused by the desire of Americans to make stealth stealth, and even unify it with the F-35B short take-off and vertical landing, which required a specific shape of the fuselage, due to which the aircraft Russian-language Internet has received the unpleasant nickname "penguin".


F-35C


The speed of the F-35C is a separate mystery - usually in Russian-speaking sources it is indicated that it is 1,6М or 1 930 km / h. It would be ok if the same sources didn’t indicate the speed of 1,8М or 1 900 km / h for Super Hornet and Rafale M - that is, the old fighters are faster in the mach numbers, but in kilometers per hour they are why slower.

How could this happen? Most likely, the matter is this: as you know, the Mach number is a variable, depending also on the height of the flight. Other things being equal, the Mach number at ground level is 1 224 km / h, but at a height of about 11 km - 1 062 km / h. At the same time, it is also well known that modern aircraft develop maximum speed exactly at altitude - for example, Rafale M develops 1 912 km / h at high altitude, and only 1 390 km / h on small. Thus, the speed of the Rafal M at high altitude is exactly the same as 1,8M (1 912 km / h / 1 062 km / h = 1,8M), but the speed F-35C is obviously obtained by multiplying the number M, which the aircraft reached by the value of the M number of the earth (1,6М * 1 224 km / h = 1 958 km / h). However, such a calculation is obviously erroneous, because airplanes do not develop 1,6М near the surface of the earth, and if they had developed, the F-35C would have developed much more than 1,6M at an altitude and then the entire American press would have blown about it. Thus, it can be assumed that the real speed of the F-35C at high altitude is 1,6М * 1 062 km / h = something around 1 700 km / h, that is, it is significantly inferior to both the "Super Hornet" and the MiG-29КР.

But the F-35C is a full-fledged stealth fighter - there are no exact data on its ESR, but it is clearly much lower (most likely an order of magnitude or more) than the Rafale M, Super Hornet and MiG-29KR. The aircraft has such an important innovation as the internal armament compartment, which, by the way, perfectly fits 4 missiles (for example, AMRAAM 2 URVV medium range and 2 UVVV "Sidevinder", that is, "gentleman's set" of a fighter performing air defense tasks). In addition, there is no doubt that the F-35C avionics is superior to that of any of the above aircraft. Thus, the APG-81 radar installed on it, according to some data, is capable of detecting a target with an 3 square meter EPR. at a distance of up to 176 km, that is, on 11% further than the radar "Super Hornet" and on 35% further MiG-29KR. Aircraft of the F-35 family received an optical-location station for armament - it's hard to say how its capabilities compare with the one installed on the MiG-29KR, but, most likely, our aircraft have no superiority in this parameter. As for the capabilities of the EW, the information about it is too fragmentary to be able to form a final opinion.

In general, the F-35C seems to have the impression that this aircraft, in terms of its maneuverability, is somewhere at the F / A-18 E / F Super Hornet and F-16 latest versions, perhaps - to some extent inferior. Not that the last two have the same maneuverability, they are significantly different. But, judging by the opinion of the pilots who joined them in training battles, each of them has its drawbacks and advantages, and in general the planes are equivalent (freely quoting the American pilot: “I would prefer to go into battle on the F / A-18 E / F, but I know guys who say the same thing about F-16 ”).

At the same time, the F-35C avionics is, of course, more advanced than the one that existing deck-based aircraft have, but it is hardly possible to speak of the presence of global breakthroughs - rather, it’s about the fact that each of the F-35C systems exceeds 15 -20% similar systems of the same "Rafale-M". In addition, one should also recall such an indicator as convenience - it can be assumed that the F-35C is more comfortable for a pilot, who is easier to control the aircraft and use onboard armament, and this is an important component of success in air combat. Although it is known that in some respects the F-35 family aircraft are inferior to the previous types - for example, the view from the cockpit of any F-35 is worse than that of the same F-16, there were also complaints about the overly massive helmet and the small space in the cabin.

Probably, there is no reason why the avionics with characteristics similar to those used by the F-35C cannot be installed on the next modification of the same “Super Hornet”, and the piloting characteristics of the F-35C do not exceed the latter. Thus, the main “trick” of the F-35 is still invisibility and unification with the VTOL aircraft.

As for the F-35B, this aircraft has a slightly degraded performance characteristics of the F-35C in exchange for its ability to take off from a short run-up without the aid of a catapult and carry out a vertical landing.


F-35B


Interestingly, the F-35B is lighter than its ejector “fellow” (14 588 kg versus 15 785 kg) - apparently, the need for a stronger body, as well as “hook” mechanisms for the catapult and the aero-finisher. Nevertheless, the need to place a huge “fan”, replacing lifting engines with F-35B, could not but affect the aircraft's load - if the F-35C carries kg of fuel in 8 960 internal tanks, then the F-35B has just 6 352 kg or 1,41 times less. But what is interesting is that if we take the most common data on the flight range of these aircraft - 2 520 km from F-35С and 1 670 km from F-35B, then we get the difference not in 1,41 but in 1,5 times. Why is that? It is probably a matter of increased fuel consumption during the take-off and landing operations of the F-35B, because with a short take-off and vertical landing, it is necessary to turn on the afterburner. If the F-35B took off and landed like an ordinary horizontal take-off and landing aircraft, then one would expect the F-35B to fly significantly more than the 1 670 km, because it is lighter than the F-35C and its fuel consumption will be less.

Thus, the fact that the F-35B and F-35С ranges correspond as 1: 1,5 has a logical explanation. But if so, then we should expect that the combat radii of these planes correspond in the same proportion. But what is interesting is that if we compare the common numbers of combat radii F-35B and F-35С - 865 km for the first, and 1 140 km for the second, we will see that the radius of F-35B is only 1,32 times smaller than the F- 35C! Obviously, this is simply physically impossible. The author of this article has an assumption that the radius of 865 km for F-35B is specified on the basis of the usual (not shortened) take-off and the same normal (not vertical) landing. If the F-35B is used in full accordance with its name “short takeoff and vertical landing aircraft”, then its combat radius probably does not exceed 760 km.

EW aircraft



The only type of deck aircraft of this class is the aircraft wings of American aircraft carriers - this is the EA-18G “Growler”. This aircraft is designed to conduct electronic reconnaissance, jamming radar (up to five EW suspension containers) and enemy communication systems, as well as destroying radar anti-radar missiles. The on-board equipment EA-18G allows identifying and bearing sources of electromagnetic radiation. At the same time, the “Growler” can carry also strike armament - one of the variants of combat loading provides for the suspension of three containers of electronic warfare, two AMRAAM air defense missiles and two Harm anti-radar missiles. The crew of the aircraft consists of two people - a pilot and an operator of electronic systems.

Without a doubt, the basing of the EW aircraft on the Gerald R. Forde gives the aircraft wing of this ship a gigantic advantage over the rest of the aircraft carriers and domestic aircraft carrier aircraft. Today, passive radio intelligence is almost more important than the active work of early warning airplanes, and complementing each other they give a synergistic effect. Thus, it is possible to say that the Gerald R. Ford air wing has almost multiple times better control of the airspace than the other groups of ships we compare.

Airplanes and ARLO helicopters

The famous E-2С "Hokai" is based on American and French aircraft carriers. No matter how sad it is to admit, but this aircraft is a real gem of the US Navy and has no analogues in the world.

This aircraft is the "flying headquarters" of the air group - its crew includes two pilots and three operators. The E-2C does not simply control the aircraft based on its radar data — it receives information from each aircraft under its control in real time — its position, speed, altitude, and the remaining fuel and ammunition. Its radar is capable of detecting and escorting ground, sea, and air targets to or from the 300, on the background of the underlying surface or outside it. In addition, the aircraft is provided with passive reconnaissance, allowing to "lead" as many targets as the radar. The only limitation of its use in the fleet is the need for catapults, so the British Queen Elizabeth and the domestic Kuznetsov are forced to be content with DRLO helicopters (they are not part of the regular air group, but at least theoretically can be placed there).

The advantages of the DRLO aircraft are clearly visible on the example of comparing the capabilities of the E-2С “Hokai” and the domestic Ka-31.

TKR "Kuznetsov". Comparison with NATO aircraft carriers. H. 4


The first thing that catches your eye is, of course, the difference in the detection range of aerial and surface targets. Ka-31 detects a fighter-type target at a distance of 100-150 km (probably it is a plane with a square meter 3-5 square meter, but this is not certain). E-2 will notice such a target with km 200-270, and maybe more. The Ka-31 warship will detect approximately from 250-285 km, while the E-2C is capable of rising to a much greater height, and its detection range of ground and surface targets is almost twice as long - to 450 km, and bomber targets - to 680 (according to other data - 720 km). The Hokaya radar is capable of tracking 300 targets (not counting those that can be controlled by passive means), according to other data, the latest E-2C modifications, this figure increased to 2 000. Ka-31 can simultaneously track all 20 targets.

As we said earlier, the E-2С has the capabilities of conducting passive radio-technical intelligence - if such opportunities exist for Ka-31, then, alas, they have not been declared in the open press. E-2С are able to perform the role of a “flying headquarters”, and the Ka-31 does not have such an opportunity, although this is to a certain extent leveled by the ability of the Ka-31 to transmit the data it received to the ship.

Many sources indicate the ability of the E-2C to conduct patrols at a distance of 320 km from an aircraft carrier for 3-4 hours, that is, be in the air for up to 4,5-5,5 hours. In fact, these data are more likely even understated - during the “Storm in the Desert” E-2С were often in the air for 7 hours. The Ka-31 is able to be in the air for the entire 2,5 hour, while its cruising speed is 220 km per hour, more than twice inferior to that of the Hokai (575 km / h), that is, if the E-2C is a means of reconnaissance, then Ka-31 - control of air and surface situation in the immediate vicinity of the ships warrant. If the E-2C is able to patrol at its cruising speed, using all the onboard reconnaissance tools that it has, then the speed of the Ka-31 when operating its radar drops, if not to zero, then to several tens of kilometers per hour.

The fact is that the Ka-31 is equipped with a huge (square 6 sq. M., Length - 5,75 m) rotating antenna, which, of course, significantly increases the helicopter’s windage and requires considerable efforts to stabilize the latter in flight, which causes a huge loss speed of movement.

British ARLO helicopters, created on the basis of the Sea King multi-purpose helicopter, appear to have similar capabilities to the Ka-31 in detecting surface and aerial targets, but somewhat superior to other parameters.


Sea King AEW.Mk2


So, placing the antenna in the fairing probably allows these helicopters to move faster than the Ka-31 during reconnaissance. The number of targets that the helicopter is able to control reaches (with the latest modifications) 230. On the other hand, it is not known how “network-centric” British helicopters are - their first modifications did not have data exchange equipment, information about the targets they discovered were transmitted by radio (Soviet helicopters have had such equipment since the Ka-25C). Subsequently, the “Sea King” received the necessary automation, but its author’s technical characteristics are unknown to the author of this article. Currently, the UK has placed an order for ARLO helicopters of the new type Crowsnest



However, very little is known about them, except that they were not as good as they could be. The fact is that initially it was supposed to install on them the radar, created on the basis of the American AN / APG-81 (installed on the F-35 family of fighters). This did not, of course, make the new helicopters equal to Hokayam, but ... still, at least something. However, budgetary restrictions did not allow to implement this project, and as a result, the newest Crowsnest received the outdated Thales Searchwater 2000AEW radar.

In any case, DRLO helicopters are nothing more than a palliative and are unable to compete with DRLO aircraft. The E-2 “Hokai”, of course, is inferior in its capabilities to such “monsters” of radar reconnaissance as the E-3А “Sentry” and A-50U, but these are significantly larger and more expensive aircraft. At the same time, the E-2C was so good in terms of the price / quality ratio that many countries (such as Israel and Japan) preferred to acquire them - in order to use them as AWACs and flying headquarters for their air forces.

As for the Americans, having created a magnificent “Hokai”, they did not stop at what had been achieved, but started rearming their squadrons with the new E-2D aircraft “Edwanst Hokai”, which represents, in fact, a profound modernization of the E-2С.



Accurate data on the E-2D is not available, but it is known that their new APY-9 radar complex was developed with a focus on enhancing noise immunity, increasing the range of target detection, with particular attention paid to the detection and tracking of cruise missiles. These, and many other innovations allow the newest American aircraft to control the air, sea and land space much better than it did E-2С.

Unmanned Aerial Vehicles

To date, there are no UAVs in the regular composition of the US air wings, although their ability to be based on aircraft carriers has been confirmed by tests of the Kh-47V - drone, being developed under the auspices of the US Navy. It is a large strike Drone, with a maximum takeoff weight of up to 20 kg (empty weight - 215 kg). Its payload capacity allows it to carry up to 6 tons of ammunition (typical load - two JDAM guided air bombs). The cruising speed of the X-350B is 2 km / h, the maximum - 47 km / h.


X-47 In person


However, the impressive characteristics of these UAVs achieved a very high price - in the truest sense of the word. The program was so expensive that the US Navy was forced to roll it.


Takeoff X-47B from the deck of the aircraft carrier "George Bush" in the Atlantic (2013 g.)


Also, UAVs are not observed in the aircraft groups of the aircraft carriers of Britain and France, but at the “Kuznetsov” TAKR they ... at least were in the design and in the first stages of operation. This, of course, is about Granit anti-ship P-700 missiles.

Information about this rocket, given in various sources, is still different, so we will give the minimum (in parentheses - the maximum values):

Flight range - 550 (625) km along the combined trajectory, 145 (200) km - at low altitude;

The mass of the warhead is 518 (750) kg or a special warhead with a power of 500 kt .;

Flight altitude - 14 000 (17 000-20 000) m at high altitude and 25 m at attack site.

At the same time, the rocket is equipped with the 3B47 "Quartz" radio jamming station and possesses the beginnings of artificial intelligence - there are different opinions on what the Granit can make, but the fact that it can perform anti-missile maneuvers, select targets and exchange data between missiles (in the group salvo), distributing the goal, no one questioned.

The attentive reader has already noticed that we have not said a word about anti-submarine aircraft. However, this topic is so complex that it requires a separate material and we will not “touch” it yet.

In the next article of the cycle, we will try, using the materials of this and the previous article, to determine the effectiveness of aircraft carriers compared by us in carrying out their inherent tasks.

Продолжение следует ...

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  1. +6
    22 July 2018 06: 25
    ... Kuzya - not just a dream - a complete nightmare ...
    1. 0
      22 July 2018 23: 20
      Quote: ver_
      ... Kuzya - not just a dream - a complete nightmare ...

      It's you that compared the incomparable! Then I agree!
  2. +1
    22 July 2018 09: 07
    The United States, as a world gendarme, needs an AB to control the colonies, has its own drift carrier, and Kuzya, like all cruisers of the Russian Federation, plays the role of a coastal phlegate ..... but it’s very large and expensive. Russia does not need large NKs from the word at all, but as long as they still serve, they can be repaired, because a new pair of frigates is more expensive than cruiser repair.
    1. + 14
      22 July 2018 09: 27
      Dear what are you talking about nonsense? And let's cut off one hand for you? You are not the world gendarme to rake resources with both hands, one is enough for you
      1. +2
        22 July 2018 14: 57
        Could already get used to it. The colleague has a fad about aircraft carriers and large surface ships - he passionately hates them fanatically, which he hurries to convey in almost every topic regarding the modern fleet and not only Yes
        1. 0
          22 July 2018 21: 52
          you are wrong, i think that aviation is very important far from its shores, air supremacy is necessary....we already know that the AB costs 14 billion dollars, and produces a flight of fighters per hour...the alternative is the TU 160...
          https://www.vedomosti.ru/technology/articles/2018
          /01/25/748964-tu-160m2 .... I respect them very much... wouldn't it be better to build 57 Tu160s with this money? What do you think?
    2. +5
      22 July 2018 13: 06
      An aircraft carrier to patrol the shores? What? ..
      If Russia wants to be a naval power (and we need it to defend our interests), then we need a strong fleet, which can butt with another fleet in the ocean. And here here, the ships of the class "Aircraft Carrier" - are simply irreplaceable!
      Aviation gives a serious advantage in the ocean, and not only.
      1. +1
        22 July 2018 20: 57
        Quote: Jack O'Neill
        you need a strong fleet that can butt with another fleet in the ocean.

        What are you talking about? Please list all the first-rank surface ships of the Russian Navy... What are you going to butt heads with? There are currently two cruisers in service, one for each ocean, and two destroyers in addition to them, one for each ocean, well, and also frigates 1155 = 6 units for each ocean and sea frigates 1135, 11356 = 5 units ....... a little..... you can butt heads only with the Papuans
        1. 0
          22 July 2018 22: 00
          sorry not erased while editing
      2. +1
        22 July 2018 21: 10
        Quote: Jack O'Neill
        need a strong fleet that can butt with another fleet in the ocean
        what are you talking about? on each ocean, the Russian Federation now has one cruiser, one destroyer and three BODs .... and then there will be less ...... who are you planning to fight with such forces? Americans tremble in fear .....
        1. 0
          22 July 2018 22: 01
          sorry, it wasn't erased during editing, by the way, there are only two attack ships on the ocean, one cruiser and one destroyer, because our large anti-submarine ships are purely anti-submarine
      3. 0
        22 July 2018 21: 33
        Quote: Jack O'Neill
        "you need a strong fleet that can butt with another fleet in the ocean," what are you talking about? on each ocean, the Russian Federation now has one cruiser, one destroyer and three BODs .... and then there will be less ...... who are you planning to fight with such forces? Americans tremble in fear ..... by the way, if you make at least one new aircraft carrier you need 20 years not to make a single new combat aircraft ... there will be no money .... this is because of the importance of aviation ... https: // iz .ru / 763470 / 2018-07-05 / v-gosdu
        me-sravnili-stoimost-su-57-i-amerikanskikh-analog
        ov instead of one aircraft carrier, you can make 350 SU-57s... How many military aircraft does Russia have? The approximate figure is 1614 units of military aircraft. This includes 80 strategic bombers, 150 long-range bombers, 241 attack aircraft, etc.

        Source: https://nasamoletah.ru/poznavatelno/strategichesk
        aya-aviaciya-rossii.html.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. 0
      22 July 2018 14: 06
      And in order to be a superpower, you must be a world gendarme, decide the fate of different countries as the USA does and the USSR did. Yes, and the best defense is an attack. Therefore, who says that aircraft carriers are not needed (because Russia does not have them), they are wrong and mislead
      1. 0
        22 July 2018 21: 00
        You can be a superpower if you have enough submarines, but being a gendarme is expensive, there will be too many zinc coffins and too little bread and butter
        1. +6
          22 July 2018 22: 54
          What are you going to cover these submarines with? The main advantage of the SSBN is that it is not known where it is and where it will strike. And for this it is necessary to provide access to the open ocean. So, without the surface component, this is not possible. At the moment, ALL of our SSBNs are tightly encased with “partners” when leaving, which solves their main advantage. Deployment in the interior water deprives them of their advantages in the same way, since the same Sea of ​​Okhotsk is much easier to control than the ocean.
          1. 0
            22 July 2018 22: 58
            an important topic has been raised! but then all available NKs should be concentrated near the submarine bases, and on Tof this is, to put it mildly, not the case.....apparently all large NKs are a show, and the exit and return of the submarines will be covered up with something else
            1. 0
              22 July 2018 23: 00
              for example, coastal aviation which is catastrophically small
          2. 0
            22 July 2018 23: 11
            all that large NKs can do is die heroically like Varyag and Koreyets...only the role of Koreyets will now go to the destroyer Bystry...but the good thing is that there will be no Tsushima, because there are no masses of senseless vulnerable large NKs
          3. +2
            23 July 2018 00: 34
            And the SSBNs can go out into the open Arctic Ocean and launch missiles either from a wormwood or breaking ice, or they can maneuver in the seas of the Arctic coast, Kara, Laptev, Beloy, for example.
            And how, in this case, surface ships of the Americans can prevent them? How can the base submarine, including Poseidons, prevent the RSL from being thrown onto the ice? Given that coastal bases with powerful air defense are deployed in the areas of the Arctic Ocean islands, including modernized interceptor airfields on these islands.
            The question is, what can aircraft carriers say in this situation, how can they interfere, given that for a long time there are no S-3 Viking aircraft in the decked air groups? Yes, and the routes of the AUG movement to the SF Bases are quite predictable, only from the west in the interval from the North Cape to the border of floating ice, it’s not possible to go from the Berengov Strait to the east, of course, but then an AUG icebreaker is needed, and with a hull width comparable with the width of the atomic an aircraft carrier, otherwise it will be trapped in the ice by D. Ford, like Chelyuskin.
            1. +2
              23 July 2018 06: 54
              Where in Russia have you seen these deployed bases? The length of the Arctic coast is 19,7 thousand km. The group of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation is deployed only on its westernmost edge, in the northwest of the Kola Peninsula. This is one motorized rifle brigade, one marine brigade, three air bases and two S-300P anti-aircraft missile regiments. In total, they include about 100 tanks, more than 100 armored personnel carriers, over 100 artillery systems and 60 combat aircraft, about 30 attack and the same number of transport helicopters.

              If you move along the Arctic coast to the east, then there is only one combat unit - the C-300P anti-aircraft missile regiment near Severodvinsk. Further - to the Bering Strait - there is nothing.
              And the Northern Fleet is more sharpened to carry out operations in the Atlantic.
              1. 0
                23 July 2018 11: 32
                about the Atlantic you got excited, you yourself write that there are not enough funds for the defense of the Barents Sea, very important are defensive in the light of the importance of Syas and Apl, and the Atlantic is all empty, where are you going with one cruiser and a destroyer? you need to level the ground group and increase the number of squares, to conquer the Atlantic and stable defense of the Barents Sea
                1. +3
                  23 July 2018 13: 47
                  What do you think Kama opposed the now revived 2nd US fleet? You look at its operational lines ... This is the North Atlantic
                  1. 0
                    23 July 2018 17: 22
                    I do not argue that the US is dangerous in the western part of the Barents Sea, and is trying to block the Atlantic to prevent Russian submarines from reaching the east coast of the US, they understand the importance of submarines, unlike those who dream of large NKs, ... the question is how to overcome this protection? My opinion is the secrecy of submarines, and the number of submarines to support them. It seems to me that the Kuznetsov aircraft carrier is no help in this, although if we strengthen the Northern Fleet with rank 2 surface ships, from the Baltic and Black Sea Fleet, the Caspian Fleet where they are not needed at all, repair a couple of three TARKs, add Moscow there because the Black Sea Fleet is too small for it, then the aircraft carrier can become part of a squadron that, together with coastal aviation, will not allow NATO into the Barents Sea and will ensure a guaranteed exit of submarines under the ice of the Arctic Ocean
  3. +1
    22 July 2018 11: 17
    I do not quite understand why the super hornet is compared with the MiG-29, and not with the SU-33
    1. +5
      22 July 2018 11: 34
      Quote: bmv04636
      I do not quite understand why the super hornet is compared with the MiG-29, and not with the SU-33

      Because the near future of our carrier-based aircraft is precisely the MiG-29, not the Su-33
      1. 0
        22 July 2018 12: 51
        I understand that the subject of the Navy’s article, but it’s still more correct to compare the performance characteristics of the same: F-18 with Mig-35 / Su-30 / Su-35, the last two are much more than Mig-29 (!)
        * Moreover, the Mig-29K come in an extremely lightweight version of the "M"
        1. +4
          22 July 2018 13: 01
          Quote: Romario_Argo
          but it’s still more correct to compare the performance characteristics of the same: F-18 with Mig-35 / Su-30 / Su-35

          These are NOT deck aircraft and will never be
        2. 0
          22 July 2018 13: 08
          Quote: Romario_Argo
          but it’s still more correct to compare the performance characteristics of the same: F-18 with Mig-35 / Su-30 / Su-35, the last two we have much more than the Mig-29 (!)

          The topic of the article is a comparison, for some reason, specifically Kuzi with specifically Ford. Accordingly, a discussion of the alleged situation for the 21st or rightmost year. With such an introduction, it is more reasonable, of course, to discuss penguins C against MiG-29 and Su-33, but nothing really is known about penguins. On the other hand, the author is a staunch supporter of the BVB, so the MiG-29 will tear the penguins without options, no matter what the LM would torture with them.
      2. 0
        22 July 2018 15: 26
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Because the near future of our carrier-based aircraft is precisely the MiG-29, not the Su-33

        Fairly noticed.
      3. 0
        22 July 2018 16: 12
        No Andrew ...

        The future lies with the deck version of Su 35 ...
        1. +4
          22 July 2018 16: 13
          Quote: NN52
          The future lies with the deck version of Su 35 ...

          It is impossible to put him on Kuznetsov, and for the future aircraft carrier he is already out of date
          1. +1
            22 July 2018 16: 17
            Are we talking about Kuznetsov? About future?
            Sure 57 just can’t put ...
            1. 0
              22 July 2018 18: 51
              Quote: NN52
              Are we talking about Kuznetsov?

              In the article, yes
              Quote: NN52
              Sure 57 just can’t put ...

              Why? Here it is - easily. On future AB, of course
              1. +1
                22 July 2018 19: 32
                Refueling on the Su 35 as applied to Kuznetsov is being completed until the end ....
                Something like this..
                1. +1
                  22 July 2018 19: 35
                  Quote: NN52
                  Refueling on Su 35 in relation to Kuznetsov is being completed until the end ...

                  Dmitry, I do not quite understand what you are talking about.
                  1. 0
                    22 July 2018 19: 41
                    Andy

                    Have you ever seen a single photo or video of a 35 refueling in mid-air?
                    The task is set ...
                    1. +1
                      22 July 2018 19: 57
                      There is a bar, but no gas station ... for now ...
                      1. +3
                        22 July 2018 20: 01
                        Quote: NN52
                        There is a bar, but no gas station ... for now ...

                        And what does the “Kuznetsov" have to do with it? :))) The presence or absence of refueling does not translate the Su-35 into carrier-based fighters in any way, this is a thing completely unrelated to the deck
            2. +1
              22 July 2018 21: 01
              for the next 25 years, the future of the aircraft carrier fleet of the Russian Federation is Kuznetsov
      4. 0
        22 July 2018 17: 12
        Interesting article, Andrey! Only one question, why there is no analysis of the performance characteristics of the Chinese “clone” T-10K (series 3), the Chinese in their media position the J-15 as a completely “original” aircraft of Chinese design, with anti-ship potential, or something like the Chinese aircraft carriers Liaoning and Shandong with its aviation armament fall out of the discussion.
        1. 0
          22 July 2018 18: 52
          Quote: find2312
          Only one question, why there is no analysis of the performance characteristics of the Chinese "clone" T-10K (3 series), the Chinese in their media position J-15 as a completely "original" Chinese-made aircraft

          Because very little is known about him, unfortunately
    2. MPN
      +1
      22 July 2018 13: 04
      Quote: bmv04636
      I do not quite understand why the super hornet is compared with the MiG-29, and not with the SU-33

      Su-33 is very limited in strike capabilities and it can only be compared as a fighter ..., and even then in my opinion I have not heard about its further development, maybe I just have not heard, I do not say ...
  4. +2
    22 July 2018 12: 45
    But the fact is that, as you know, the architecture of our fighters, starting with the MiG-29 and Su-27, implied a supporting fuselage - that is, the fuselage of these aircraft participated in the creation of a lifting force along with the wing, while American designers did not.

    There are different opinions on this subject.
    Among all the 4th generation American fighters, the F-18, and especially the F-18E / F, take full advantage of the integrated layout.

    https://solimon.livejournal.com/703020.html
    At the same time, the rocket ... has the rudiments of artificial intelligence


    AI in the USSR of the 83rd year, yes.
    the fact that it is capable of performing missile defense maneuvers, selecting targets and exchanging data between missiles (in a group volley), distributing targets, is not in doubt.

    by nobody ...
    1. 0
      22 July 2018 13: 09
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      There are different opinions on this subject.

      Yeah, there is.
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      Among all the 4th generation American fighters, the F-18, and especially the F-18E / F, take full advantage of the integrated layout.

      Among of american fighters. Given that the table at the link shows a noticeable superiority of the MiG-29K over modifications A and C, and E/F is not present in the table. For intrigue? laughing

      Quote: Cherry Nine
      AI in the USSR of the 83rd year, yes.

      Yes. Connoisseurs of Western technology can quietly cry aside
      1. +1
        22 July 2018 13: 23
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Among the American fighters.

        The thesis in the commentary is slightly different from the thesis in the article, no?
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Connoisseurs of Western technology can cry aside

        Laughing. It turns out that a digital computer of the 80s can be called "the beginnings of AI." Well, OK.
        1. 0
          22 July 2018 13: 33
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          The thesis in the commentary is slightly different from the thesis in the article, no?

          In my opinion, no, because, as far as I know, the Americans did not set themselves such a goal in the design.
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          It turns out that a digital computer of the 80s can be called "the beginnings of AI." Well, OK.

          Yes maybe.
    2. +2
      22 July 2018 21: 30
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      AI in the USSR of the 83rd year, yes.

      Yes.

      Ground team these AI rabbits during landing, a lot of gray hair was added: the onboard computer decided that the tailwind was too strong - and, instead of approaching right along the descent path, took the ship away from the runway axis, and then laid a 180-degree turn, thus landing against the wind.
      1. +3
        22 July 2018 22: 10
        Quote: Alexey RA
        the onboard computer decided that the tailwind is too strong

        The on-board computer implemented the program, but did not “decide”. This, in fact, is the difference between AI and digital control.
        1. 0
          23 July 2018 11: 45
          The difference between AI and regular computer logic is not as deep and does not consist of what you think. Regular IF ////ELSE statement logic is typical decision making based on available data.
          1. +3
            23 July 2018 15: 25
            Quote: vladimir1155
            The usual logic of the IF //// ELSE statement is a typical decision based on the available data.

            OK. We agree that on this site, "The usual logic of the IF //// ELSE operator" is called the "rudiments of artificial intelligence." Not ready to support a serious discussion of this issue.
            1. 0
              23 July 2018 21: 14
              thank you, I will only add that the IF......ELSE operator was already used in the first versions of the oldest high-level language Fortran much earlier than 1960
  5. 0
    22 July 2018 13: 01
    For a long time, the undoubted advantage of domestic aircraft was optical-radar stations (OLS), which made it possible to detect enemy aircraft and target designation to missiles without turning on the radar. “Rafale-M” also has the OLS, but its performance characteristics, alas, are unknown, but the Super Hornets did not have the OLS (except for those hanging containers that provide guidance of weapons on ground or surface targets, but as far as the author knows , useless in aerial combat)


    Well, AN / AAQ-37 is a very tasty toy.) EOS "lightning" sees rocket torches in the distance 1.300km!


    Here's another.
    Highlight magenta — leads AN / APG-81, yellow —AN / AAQ-37.


    And the article is valid, again.) Catch a star.)
    1. 0
      22 July 2018 13: 36
      Quote: Jack O'Neill
      Well AN / AAQ-37 is a very tasty toy.) Lightning EOS sees torch rockets at a distance of 1.300km!

      Not rockets, but a soaring ballistic missile :))) And this is a purely advertising indicator - soaring ICBMs at this distance can almost be seen with binoculars :)))) It's a joke, of course, but ...
      1. 0
        22 July 2018 14: 31
        On 1.300km? It is unlikely that this can boast OLS-UE.
        1. +1
          22 July 2018 14: 52
          we also have sweets
          In an exclusive interview with Zvezda television channel, General Designer of the missile attack warning system, Sergey Boev, told how the Voronezh-DM radar station detected the launch of ballistic missiles in the Mediterranean Sea. The incident occurred on 3 of September. Then, Israel and the United States launched two ballistic targets from the central part of the Mediterranean Sea. It seemed a little more - and a signal would come to the nuclear suitcase of the President of the Russian Federation. But the electronic brain of the Voronezh-DM radar has calculated that the target does not fly toward Russia, the system developers told the author of the Military Acceptance program.

          “We calculated the trajectory of the rocket in a matter of minutes. It was an experimental US-Israeli missile, and the Voronezh station was the only one that discovered it, which was not expected by those who launched this missile, ”said Sergey Boev.

          Russian pilot spoke about the capabilities of the Su-34 in response to the publication of the US military magazine
          The Russian pilot spoke about the capabilities of the Su-34 in response to the publication ...
          The Russian system quickly calculated that the launched missiles were moving east - towards Syria. The Israeli defense ministry initially denied the launch itself, but then, after the Russian interception was released, they admitted that they launched Anchor target missiles for testing the missile defense system together with the United States.
        2. +3
          22 July 2018 15: 05
          Quote: Jack O'Neill
          On 1.300km? It is unlikely that this can boast OLS-UE.

          there is nothing to brag about - naturally, it can:))) I'll tell you even more - the UE OLS can see objects at a distance of 152 MILLION kilometers (the Sun):))) It's unbelievable, but it's a fact (the same as observing an ICBM flight at 1300 km)
          1. +1
            22 July 2018 23: 38
            there is nothing to brag about - naturally, maybe :))) I can tell you even more - OLS UE can see objects at a distance of 152 MILLION kilometers (Sun) :))) Incredible, but it is a fact (of the same order as the observation of the ICBM flight for 1300 km)

            Humor is good.) good
  6. +1
    22 July 2018 15: 04
    Miles sorry for the offtopic, dear colleague, but do you have a fresh start on the topic of the RIF or RKKF before the years of commercials of 1960's, is anything new planned? And the couple even somehow already got bored with this topic in your performance, the last thing was “Varyag”, and then 2 weeks ago, the update feel
    1. +2
      22 July 2018 15: 08
      Quote: arturpraetor
      but do you have a freshman on the topic of the RIF or the RKKF until the years of commercials of the 1960s, is anything new planned?

      Nope. Varyag in Arthur, something about Poseidon and Sakharov’s hypertsunami, and a small analyst on the document “Strategy for the development of the shipbuilding industry for the period until 2035” should be released next week
      then I will prepare the next Varangian, finishing on Hood and continuing on TAKR
      1. 0
        22 July 2018 15: 27
        It's a pity. I hoped that there would be some interesting cycle ahead. The remaining topics are also interesting, but it’s not so somehow. Although it's just me)
      2. 0
        22 July 2018 22: 26
        the strategy is right .... they listened to me
  7. +1
    22 July 2018 15: 10
    (However, the impressive characteristics of the UAV data were achieved at a very high price - in the literal sense of the word. The program turned out to be so expensive that the US Navy was forced to curtail it.) Author! Let's not exaggerate that! The program was minimized due to the fact that the functions of both detection and SOLUTION were to be transferred to the doron! about striking! While the human paradigm has outweighed, those that are produced are reformatted into tankers. But the potential created has not disappeared. To be honest, of all that is currently available on decks, these drones are the most effective weapons. Do not go to the grandmother.
    1. 0
      22 July 2018 15: 22
      Quote: dgonni
      To be honest, of all that is currently available on decks, these drones are the most effective weapons.

      Only here on the decks they are not
      Quote: dgonni
      The program was minimized due to the fact that the functions of both detection and SOLUTION were to be transferred to the doron! about striking!

      Which is elementarily limited at the program level, after which the UAV is used as usual. But this was not done, so - it is exorbitant cost
  8. 0
    22 July 2018 17: 07
    but the "Super Hornets" OLS did not have

    Well of course, what about IRST21?
    1. 0
      22 July 2018 18: 49
      Quote: Puncher
      Well of course, what about IRST21?

      She is suspended, actually, and I have no data that the Navy took it into service
  9. +1
    22 July 2018 17: 30
    For some reason, I want to put it bluntly, but the public format is forcing restraint. All these comparisons of Nimitz with Kuznetsov and the MiG-29 with the F-35 are not good enough.

    Tired of ..
  10. +2
    22 July 2018 17: 51
    The point of the article is "I would compare, but there is not enough data...". And if so, then what comparison can we talk about? I am not even talking about other things. For example, it is certainly useful to compare the detection ranges of airborne radars, but the effectiveness of a radar is determined not only by this parameter, but also by many others. And in order to list them all, a separate article is needed. But we can mention, for example, such a parameter as the effectiveness of tracking maneuvering targets, and especially targets made using stealth technologies, in a complex jamming environment. That is, it is not enough to detect something flying. It is also necessary to identify its nationality, tie a route and conduct this route until the moment when the weapons guidance system locks on the target. And there are many such routes. And many of them are false, which must be "dropped" from tracking in time so as not to overload the aircraft's on-board computer with unnecessary data. In addition, maneuvering targets and their relative invisibility in every possible way contribute to the failure of tracking. In ground systems, this task is distributed between operators and equipment, and on a fighter there are no extra people. True, on two-seater fighters, the avionics operator simplifies this task to some extent, but he has more than enough other tasks. At the same time, we must not forget that the enemy will try by all means (electronic warfare, anti-radar weapons, etc.) to disrupt the detection and tracking tasks. But this is just an example. In general, a comparative assessment of weapons systems is an extremely difficult task, as Grandfather Lenin would say, and various methods and means are used to solve it: simulation modeling, field tests, etc. At the same time, the cost of such assessments is often comparable to the cost of creating the systems themselves.
    In the meantime, the comparison given in the article resembles a half-forgotten one: "it is relative, it’s relative; but it’s not like something or something, but if it happened, then here you are."
    And comparing “Kuzyu” with its modern counterparts operating as part of powerful AUGs is simply incorrect. “Ulyanovsk”, if they had given him birth, one could still somehow compare with them, but Kuzyu - thank you
  11. +1
    22 July 2018 17: 58
    Unfortunately, our Kuznetsov will be quickly sunk ...
    1. 0
      22 July 2018 21: 05
      not at all, he will be protected by coastal defense means, he will not depart from the coast so as not to sink
      1. +2
        22 July 2018 21: 37
        That is, it will be on the raid of the Naval Fleet of Northern Fleet - since this is the only place where there are coastal defense equipment. And when moving away from the base at least 200 miles, even off the coast, Kuznetsov should rely only on himself and the escort.
        Oh yes, a small correction is to run at full speed along the raid, because an incoming air stream is extremely desirable for takeoff from a springboard.
        1. 0
          22 July 2018 22: 07
          you are right, it turns out that way...it won't be able to repel a NATO attack together with the Ustinov and the obsolete Ushakov (decommissioned within 2-7 years) currently in service in the Northern Fleet (and with the anti-submarine defense of three old large anti-submarine ships)?
          1. 0
            22 July 2018 22: 10
            I think it won't go to the roadstead....why lose planes when landing, and burn fuel oil at the roadstead? The planes will fly to the coastal airfield and KUZYA will turn into a coastal floating battery, just like battleships turned into it in WWII
  12. 0
    22 July 2018 18: 06
    One Kuznetsov solves problems such that the whole AUG only solves in the United States. Kuznetsov it has no analogues
    1. 0
      22 July 2018 21: 21
      not at all ..... China has two whole analogs of Kuznetsov
      1. 0
        22 July 2018 22: 08
        and India has one
      2. 0
        23 July 2018 00: 29
        By the way, China is a very good example of a choice between AB and TAVKR: the Chinese aircraft carrier fleet program provides for the construction of TAVKR only at the first stage, with the transition to classic AVs in the future. And the main reason for building the Tavkr at the beginning is only because China has documentation for these ships and a ready-made sample of 1143.6. PMSM, if the Chinese did not have CD and TD from Nikolaev, and if the Ukrainians didn’t sell them Varyag, the Chinese aircraft carrier program would have skipped the TAVKR stage.
        However, we would not have had this stage either - if not for the “boots” from the Moscow Region and the admirals Gorshkov who supported them from among the admirals. The whole history of the Soviet TAVKR is the story of a large zigzag away from the main route 1160 - 1153. The zigzag ended as a result back to basics as 1143.7. It was not for nothing that the Chief Designer, pr. 1160 wrote that Ulyanovsk was not the development of 1143, but the reincarnation of 1160.
        1. +2
          23 July 2018 01: 40
          The Chinese have a different situation from the Soviet Navy. And the adversary is not like that - the Chinese Navy does not oppose, almost alone, the NATO fleets and, at least for now, is not going to conflict with the USAG half the world from its ships. Plus, they don’t have anti-ship missiles similar to Granites (although they were closer to them, at least in range), and if we take into account that about 25 years have passed since the collapse of the USSR (and the Volcanoes were already in the union) and progress on heavy missiles is not , then it slowed down a lot and at least a bolide fell out of it. So it goes.
          1. 0
            23 July 2018 11: 39
            China should be ready to confront the USA, NATO, Japan, they have a deep political and economic conflict
        2. 0
          23 July 2018 11: 37
          Amelko is a good guy, Gorshkov was wrong, history has shown that, there is no need for AVs in the Russian Federation, so they were all sawed up for scrap metal, there are no sailors for them and no money for maintenance
          1. +2
            23 July 2018 15: 56
            And fighters, IS, reconnaissance, BDK, tanks and a bunch of things are also unnecessary? After the collapse of the USSR, a lot of things were sawn into metal.
            1. 0
              23 July 2018 17: 13
              we need modern ones, they were scrapping the T 55, I have not heard of them scrapping even one serviceable T 72, T 80, I am not sure about fighters, but they also have service life, Ground and air equipment, unlike naval equipment, is well stored in warehouses and hangars
              1. +2
                23 July 2018 18: 50
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd5i_gf31oc
                Well, regarding the T-55. If they are not, then how to make up for losses in the event of a serious conflict?
                And the MiG-27 and Su-17 are also not needed at all right? Or BDK rhinos that are rotten and wanted to replace the Mistrals?
                1. 0
                  23 July 2018 20: 53
                  T55 is a moving target, blind, slow, mass grave for 3 people, it is better not to have them, I am not competent about aircraft, but about bulky and defenseless aircraft-carrying graves for 1000 people with aircraft guarding the ship's mast ..., I think that they were written off correctly. Rhinos apparently had some design flaws, I think (I don't know specifically and clearly), it is not profitable for the fleet to write off large landing ships without reason, they can also move cargo. Unfortunately, part 1155 was written off = they were good frigates, the reason is the same, there are no funds for maintenance and repairs.
                  1. +2
                    23 July 2018 22: 54
                    The upgraded T-55s were quite a cake for themselves at the end of the 80s. Those from storage could be quickly put into operation. Quite a lot of them were in active units. These tanks can destroy all types of ground targets, except modern tanks in the forehead. And if you take into account that not all tanks were the most modern in NATO, and tanks would also be taken from storage to compensate for losses, then the T-55 no longer looks useless ...
                    1. 0
                      24 July 2018 00: 09
                      I don’t think so, the T55 is slow-moving, engine storage in the winter ..., outdated tracks are slow, armor breaks through cumulative ..... you can finally leave one blank body and redo everything .... is the game worth the candle? here’s the ships and it makes no sense to remake so actively, and with tanks .... they could be converted into tractors, but why are there so many tractors?
                      1. +2
                        24 July 2018 13: 07
                        T-55s already existed. And if it were necessary to increase the number of tanks in the troops, they would simply have to be removed from storage, and not riveted from scratch. They could be modernized by tank repair plants that do not manufacture tanks. There are a ton of modernization projects. Attaching DZ is not a problem at all. Reservists trained to handle this tank are available. Even without modernization, these tanks have combat value.
          2. 0
            23 July 2018 23: 07
            Quote: vladimir1155
            Amelko is a good guy, Gorshkov was wrong, history has shown that, there is no need for AVs in the Russian Federation, so they were all sawed up for scrap metal, there are no sailors for them and no money for maintenance

            You want to say what Gorshkov wanted for fleet 1143.1-1443.4? No - these ships were imposed on the Navy by Ustinov and Amelko. And they are responsible for the fact that these ships went on needles - because for the maintenance of ships the size of an AB, but armed with a subsonic “mast defense aircraft” with a pair of R-60 and without radar, there was really no money.
            If the first 1143 normal ABs - perhaps a couple of them would survive to this day. But the mutants obtained in real life were not needed by the Navy - especially in a situation of abandoning the Yak-141. And we know very well whose efforts they became. And who hacked 1160 and 1153.
            1. 0
              24 July 2018 00: 02
              I am sure that Amelko did well to achieve the Masovgo construction of submarines, minesweepers, and AV ships were proposed precisely by potting (ex officio), and not Amelko
            2. +2
              24 July 2018 13: 15
              Even without airplanes, these ships could be quite a few. In fact, they, without an air wing, were somewhat truncated by RRC. With the introduction of the Yak-141, then they would have gone for an air defense carrier. If they were normal aircraft carriers, nothing would have changed. I repeat once again - in 90 all single-engine aircraft went under the knife. Namely, variations of 23 instants would form the basis of the air group. In general, the fact that Kuzneiov did not go for scrapping and they made at least some sort of air group for him is a miracle. As well as the story of the completion of the 4th eagle.
    2. +1
      22 July 2018 21: 44
      Quote: Е2 - Е4
      One Kuznetsov solves problems such that the whole AUG only solves in the United States.

      Yeah ... especially well, "Kuznetsov" alone solves the problems of air defense and anti-aircraft defense. smile
      I'm not talking about the fact that the US Air Force can carry several options for the air wing. Just after 1991, the Yankees decided to save money and limited themselves to a standard "universal" wing.
  13. +1
    22 July 2018 18: 52
    Dear Andrey from Chelyabinsk, thank you for another balanced and verified comparative analysis. Your articles are interesting to read. I would like to "provoke" you (so to speak) for a new series of articles.
  14. 0
    22 July 2018 19: 49
    It would be interesting to read a new series of articles (from the "Where is the logic" series) that would examine the issue of comparative analysis of the construction of ships of Project 20380/20385/20386 and Project 11661-K by comparative criteria - construction cost and comparative ASW capabilities?!, and also why the Navy dreams of building Project 23560 with nuclear power plants instead of building ships of Project 11560 (with 24 VPU "Kalibr/Onyx" and SAM "Fort-M", preferably modernized and improved to the required level, say with the "Zaslon" radar, where the AFAR can provide target guidance for 360 degrees), for which it seems that the cruise M-70 FRU-R and afterburning M-90 FR (say, to replace the M-9 B gas turbine) are already ready for serial production (at the Rybinsk "Saturn")?! and perhaps a comparative analysis of the construction of frigates of project 12441 "Grom" instead of frigates of project 11356 R/M, according to the same criteria (cost of construction, and air defense and anti-submarine warfare capabilities of the ship's order, which is typical for escort ships)?! Maybe someone from the Ministry of Defense and the Navy, having read such a series of articles, will also think - "are we on the right course, comrades?!" ...
    1. 0
      22 July 2018 22: 18
      don't worry there won't be any destroyers, just as there won't be a continuation of the Steregushchy series either, the frigates that have been started will be completed and they will stop laying down for a while (10 years) (while there are still 1155, for modernization).....the course is set for Karakurts and Buyans-M in limited quantities, because combat NKs in wartime perform only coastal auxiliary functions. submarines and minesweepers are very much needed
  15. +1
    22 July 2018 20: 03
    Andrey from Chelyabinsk,
    Who told you that, Andrey?
    1. +1
      22 July 2018 20: 09
      Kuznetsov, after all, is also not an aircraft carrier, in the direct sense of the word ...
      1. ZVO
        +1
        23 July 2018 08: 04
        Quote: NN52
        Kuznetsov, after all, is also not an aircraft carrier, in the direct sense of the word ...


        If something quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, looks like a duck - then this is a duck!
    2. 0
      22 July 2018 23: 10
      Dmitry, the dialogue somehow does not work. You know what you want to say, but you do as Napoleon put it about the constitution: "Yes, yes, write short and unclear." And it’s not easy for me to predict the course of your thoughts. In general, I have a huge request - you somehow expand your position in more detail. It’s very difficult to guess your argument for monosyllabic replicas
      1. +1
        23 July 2018 00: 17
        Andrey, sorry ...
        Forget about my illogical presentation of thoughts...
        I went through ...
        1. 0
          24 July 2018 07: 22
          Quote: NN52
          Forget my illogical presentation of thoughts ...
          I went through ...

          Coming :) drinks
  16. The comment was deleted.
  17. 0
    23 July 2018 08: 11
    However, maybe there are some other factors that we have not taken into account?

    There are such factors. The aerodynamics of both aircraft are based on the generation of vortices, which makes a direct comparison of the specific load on the wing useless.
    1. 0
      23 July 2018 11: 50
      I'm not a pilot, I'm sorry, but it seems to me the essence is not in the generation of vortices, but in the Bernoulli equation (as Zhukovsky taught Mozhaisky)
      1. 0
        23 July 2018 20: 59
        aviation is designed so that vortices appear as little as possible
        1. 0
          24 July 2018 00: 36
          https://fan-d-or.livejournal.com/15375.html

          https://falcon3000.livejournal.com/6640.html

          It happens differently ....
        2. 0
          24 July 2018 09: 41
          This was so until about the 70s. Then they began to use controlled vortices in practice to create a zone of reduced pressure.
          1. 0
            24 July 2018 10: 27
            well, thanks for the info
  18. 0
    23 July 2018 19: 12
    Andrey's articles are good because he meticulously and with consideration of different points of view analyzes various versions present both in literature and on the Internet.
    But such a method is very good for politicized topics, and not so good for politicized ones, which undoubtedly include some of the issues raised in the article, on which in the RuNet to express an opinion different from the “patriotic point of view” means to expose yourself to persecution, therefore a critical view in such issues is simply so lost against the background of such loud “approvals” that it is practically unnoticeable.

    But I would like Andrey, with his characteristic thoroughness, to finally find out who, for example, launched a famous tale about the "wolf packs" of the Granit anti-ship missiles into the RuNet and to clarify the question of how missiles with inertial control + final-phase radar guidance (and therefore each operating in its own coordinate system) can, in principle, use information about targets from other missiles?! And if the radar of one missile sees two targets, and the other at the same moment sees four (which the author writes about in the article, by the way), each in its own coordinate system, how will they divide the targets and, for a start, at least determine whether there are two or six targets?
    Or how can a missile with a radar homing head cover a range of tens of kilometers, and from threatening directions, hundreds of kilometers of aug, at whatever height the RCC does not fly?
    And a huge number of other questions that arise in a sober-minded person in the "canonical" description of this "wunderwaffe" ...
    1. 0
      23 July 2018 20: 57
      everything you write is easily solved by an elementary computer program, missiles give each other radio signals and exchange information,
      1. 0
        24 July 2018 00: 27
        Again.
        in the inertial missile control system, the coordinates of the targets are determined relative to each individual missile separately, which excludes the exchange of information about the targets in principle, and especially target allocation.
        1. +1
          24 July 2018 07: 18
          Quote: Avior
          And I would like for Andrei, with his usual thoroughness, to finally find out who, for example, launched the noble tale of “wolf packs” of anti-ship missiles Granit into the Runet and clarified the question of how inertial control + radar guidance in the final section can do (and therefore each working in its own coordinate system) in principle, use information about targets from other missiles ?!

          Yes, in general, elementary :)))
          Quote: Avior
          And if the radar of one missile sees two targets, and the other at the same moment, four (which the author writes in the article, by the way), each in their own coordinate system, how they will share the targets and for the start will determine at least two targets or six?

          Of course, I was never the developer of the corresponding software, but such a task has a relatively simple solution.
          The first (and almost the only) thing that we need to know is the flight order of the missiles, that is, it is necessary that they adopt a certain order — for example, the front order with an interval of 500 m and be “calculated” in order of numbers. (A1-A2-A3 .... A-24) This is relatively uncomplicated.
          Further, the system of missiles flies up to the AUG. AGSNs work, and each rocket sees something different - one has three goals (B-1-B-2 B-3), the other five (B1-B2-B3-B4-B5), etc. But each rocket has information about:
          1) The distance to each of the goals (which he sees, of course)
          2) Bearing of each of the targets
          As a result, knowing the position of the missiles, and knowing the distances / bearings to the targets that each of them shows, it’s easy to triangulate (this is a task for high school) and figure out that the B-1 that the A1 rocket sees is B2 that the A2 rocket sees and B1, which the A2 rocket sees, the A1 rocket does not see. Actually speaking, triangulation is enough to select a target, but besides this, it is possible to control its results based on the target’s parameters (speed / course) and size (i.e. if missiles see an aircraft carrier, you can verify the location of other targets relative to the heavy grease)
          In other words, I repeat, I’m not a military programmer. But in my IMHO, the methods for fixing targets and distributing missiles are quite intuitive and do not contain any too abstruse modeling, for which you need a supercomputer
          Quote: Avior
          Or how a missile with a radar homing head can cover hundreds of kilometers of missile defense spread out over dozens, and from threatening directions,

          An order is never scattered either on tens or hundreds of kilometers - maybe ten kilometers, but this is the maximum. It is possible to put forward a separate ship as an RLD patrol at a distance of 100-150 km, but that’s all. AGSN Granita sees at 80 km
          1. +1
            24 July 2018 08: 59
            Andrey, you confuse a ballistic missile with a winged one.
            The inertial guidance system of cruise missiles gives an accumulating error that increases with the flight range, which is why cruise missiles have separate guidance systems in the final section even for stationary targets, and error correction during the flight over a satellite or terrain, as is done in the same Caliber .
            But the anti-ship missiles of the 80s do not even have this, all correction takes place only in the terminal section, and the missiles do not determine their position relative to each other - they do not have a single coordinate system. However, maybe you show me a decent source, where it is approved back.
            In addition, the target's EPR can differ significantly at different course angles to the target, and a bold mark can be not only on an aircraft carrier, but also on a tanker, landing ship, supply ship, attracted civilian vessel, or even just a decoy - like this one.
            The number of targets will be constantly changing, including through the use of traps and dipole reflectors.

            As for the size of the AOG, it is possible to advance a group of ships to areas of suspicion of submarines, or to ensure air defense, the AUG, if necessary, over considerable distances.
            There may also be groups of ships and vessels not directly participating in the escort, but under the cover of carrier-based aviation and in the zone of its operation.
            And as soon as the RCC detects the target, it will go to extremely low altitudes, otherwise it will be knocked down, its radio horizon will decrease to 30 km, and it simply will not see any other target in principle.
            Such logical contradictions in the inventions of Granite-wagon.
            Granite is really a very good rocket for the purposes for which it was created in the USSR - for the first sudden attack on an AUG, which is not going in battle order, but it’s not serious to sculpt a prodigy from it.
            However, the place of the wunderwaffe was constantly changing in the RuNet - first it was Granit, then Yakhont, then Caliber, then Zircon, now here is Kinzhal. Something will be appointed tomorrow, a holy place is never empty laughing
            1. 0
              24 July 2018 09: 01
              forgot traps smile
            2. 0
              24 July 2018 09: 02
              trap MK59 fires with Arly Burke
          2. +1
            24 July 2018 09: 37
            I will add.
            If rocket A sees three targets, and rocket B sees three targets, this does not mean at all that they see the same goals, especially at the maximum distance for the radar seeker.
            There can be no triangulation at the same time.
            1. 0
              24 July 2018 11: 47
              Quote: Avior
              But the 80’s anti-ship missiles didn’t even have that, all correction takes place only in the terminal section, and the missiles do not determine their position relative to each other — they do not have a single coordinate system.

              This elementary will make the AGSN of the rocket itself :)))
              Quote: Avior
              In addition, the target epr can differ markedly at different heading angles on the target.

              No, it will not - not in this case, but by and large it doesn’t matter
              Quote: Avior
              The number of targets will be constantly changing, including through the use of traps and dipole reflectors.

              Yes, and let yourself - a more or less sensible rocket, in principle, is able to distinguish a ship from a cloud of dipoles
              With regards to electronic warfare, yes, it is quite effective, but how effective it is against a missile salvo is a big question.
              Quote: Avior
              As for the size of the AOG, it is possible to advance a group of ships to areas of suspicion of submarines, or to ensure air defense, the AUG, if necessary, over considerable distances.

              Modern AUG consists of 1 AB 5-6 EM, 2 nuclear submarine and supply vessel. Which group are you going to move and where? :)))
              Quote: Avior
              And as soon as the RCC detects the target, it will go to extremely low altitudes, otherwise it will be knocked down, its radio horizon will decrease to 30 km, and it simply will not see any other target in principle.

              Wrong. When she discovers and identifies a target as an aircraft carrier, she will then go to low altitudes. And if there is no AB, then it already depends on the program - such targets can be attacked by part of the missiles, or not be attacked at all
              Quote: Avior
              Such logical contradictions in the inventions of Granite-wagon

              I haven’t seen a single one yet. That granites can be vulnerable to electronic warfare - yes, they can. That at the same time, our this option was taken into account and made noise-protected heads with selection of targets - also a fact. What is the contradiction or fiction, it is impossible to understand.
              Quote: Avior
              Granite is really a very good rocket for the purposes for which it was created in the USSR - for the first sudden strike on AUG

              What does it mean - the first and the sudden? :))) The Granit hit, if it takes place will always be sudden in the sense of transience :) And if it is not the first, it’s easier for him
              Quote: Avior
              If rocket A sees three targets, and rocket B sees three targets, this does not mean at all that they see the same goals, especially at the maximum distance for the radar seeker.
              There can be no triangulation at the same time.

              Sergey, I have serious suspicions creeping in that you do not know what triangulation is :))))))
              1. 0
                24 July 2018 13: 32

                This elementary will make the AGSN of the rocket itself :)))

                they do not and cannot do this.

                No, it will not - not in this case, but by and large it doesn’t matter

                it will be - anti-ship missiles approach the target from a fixed course angle, unlike anti-aircraft missiles, for example, but even average EPRs from different course angles will differ greatly
                Yes, and let yourself - a more or less sensible rocket, in principle, is able to distinguish a ship from a cloud of dipoles
                With regards to electronic warfare, yes, it is quite effective, but how effective it is against a missile salvo is a big question.

                Real practice shows that chaff traps are a very effective method of electronic warfare, and the probability of an anti-ship missile hitting a combat ship prepared for combat with modern electronic warfare and decoys and using them is extremely low - starting with the Yom Kippur and Falkland wars. Try to find examples yourself when missiles hit such ships. And there are a ton of return ones.
                Wrong. When she discovers and identifies a target as an aircraft carrier, she will then go to low altitudes. And if there is no AB, then it already depends on the program - such targets can be attacked by part of the missiles, or not be attacked at all

                Yeah. They will calmly fly at a height past a couple of destroyers engaged in missile defense tasks aside from the AUG or others, will arrange them a training in ideal training conditions. AB they have not yet considered.
                made noise-resistant heads with target selection

                if everything was so simple. but in reality it’s not at all like that. Well this is not air defense, where Doppler selection is possible.
                What does it mean - the first and the sudden? :)))

                This is exactly what it means - a surprise attack on a non-combat ready AUG, that's why they practiced tracking the Americans in peacetime. This is an advantage that Granites can really use very well.
                By the way, how do you imagine flying at 14 km altitude - is it a sudden blow?

                Modern AUG consists of 1 AB 5-6 EM, 2 nuclear submarines and a supply vessel.

                "typical AUG" is a funny term in relation to missile defense tasks. Who said it will be typical? here in the war with Iraq, was a typical?
                And what is tringulation, I know very well.
                And if rocket A is exaggerated, it sees targets 1,2,3 and rocket B targets 4,5,6, they can triangulate before the second advent. wink
                Andrey, what you write is an attempt to the unknown - the position of targets, through another unknown - the position of missiles.
                Closed loop, unsolvable.
                The problem is not that the stories about the “wolf pack” appeared from the air, the problem is that they have internal logical contradictions that are put out of the picture by the inventors.
                1. 0
                  24 July 2018 15: 19
                  Quote: Avior
                  they do not and cannot do this.

                  That is, the radar is not able to determine the distance to the object. Oh, how many wonderful discoveries we have ...
                  Quote: Avior
                  still how will it be- RCC approaches the target from a fixed heading angle as opposed to anti-aircraft, for example, but even the average EPR from different heading angles will be very different

                  And I repeat that this is not so, because the difference in heading angles is relatively small
                  Quote: Avior
                  Real practice shows that dipole traps are a very effective electronic warfare method, and the likelihood of RCCs getting into a battle ship manufactured with modern EW and traps and using them is extremely low - starting from the Yom Kippur and Falkland War.

                  Given the class of missiles that were used on them - yes. Because, sadly, the Exoset AGSN at that time was very primitive. About "Termites" - generally silent
                  Quote: Avior
                  Try to find examples yourself when rockets hit such ships. and the return car.

                  There are practically no reverse examples - after the Falklands, RCCs were little used.
                  Quote: Avior
                  if everything was so simple. but in reality it’s not at all like that. Well this is not air defense, where Doppler selection is possible.

                  We are now discussing spherical conic horses in a vacuum - there is no information about the real performance characteristics of AGSN Granites. You do not believe that she can do something, I believe, the sailors believe that she can (who worked with her), in general, there’s no use arguing about anything. A matter of faith, let’s say so.
                  Quote: Avior
                  Yeah. They will calmly fly at a height past a couple of destroyers engaged in missile defense tasks aside from the AUG or others, will arrange them a training in ideal training conditions.

                  Or they attack with part of the missiles, but the "polygon" conditions in the conditions of the 24 electronic warfare stations are nonsense
                  Quote: Avior
                  By the way, how do you imagine flying at 14 km altitude - is it a sudden blow?

                  Naturally.
                  Quote: Avior
                  "typical AUG" is a funny term in relation to missile defense tasks. Who said it will be typical? here in the war with Iraq, was a typical?

                  Differently. For example, 50.2 consisted of 1 AB, 2 RKR, destroyer and frigate, plus 2 nuclear submarines and supply vessel. But on average it was - 1 AB RKR pair, one or two destroyers and one or two frigates.
                  And there is nothing funny here - the US Navy has 10 AB and 88 cruiser-frigate class ships, despite the fact that not all of them can be tied to the AUG.
                  Quote: Avior
                  And if rocket A is exaggerated sees 1,2,3 targets and rocket B targets 4,5,6, they can triangulate before the second advent. wink
                  Andrey, what you write is an attempt to the unknown - the position of targets, through another unknown - the position of missiles.

                  So you still don’t understand what triangulation is.
                  I explain in a simple way. If the A1 rocket sees the B1 target directly at the heading in 60 km, and the A2 rocket going in 500 m on the right sees two targets G1 and G2, and the course angle to the G1 is 1,5 degrees to the left of the direction of flight of the rocket, and the G2 is half a degree to the left, B1 is G2, and the first rocket does not see the target of G1.
                  Accordingly, the onboard computer gives the command to the first rocket to change course to 1,5 degrees to the left, the second to 0,5 degrees, and they go down, after which each goes to its target.
                  What is unsolvable here? :)))))
                  Quote: Avior
                  the problem is that they have internal logical contradictions

                  Of which you have not yet presented any.
                  1. 0
                    24 July 2018 19: 33
                    That is, the radar is not able to determine the distance to the object. Oh, how many wonderful discoveries we have ...

                    Each radar has its own characteristics and purpose. GOS RCC including.
                    By the way, in the salvo they go in front (or it will not be a salvo), and other RCCs cannot get into the field of view of the GOS even in principle :))
                    PS Do you know why the detection range of airborne radars in the rear hemisphere is several times shorter than in the front?
                    And I repeat that this is not so, because the difference in heading angles is relatively small

                    The salvo will be different, the missiles go in front of this after a turn to the target. Moreover, it is for Granite that a volley is declared on a wide front - to increase the probability of target detection
                    There are practically no reverse examples - after the Falklands, RCCs were little used.

                    applied differently. Tanker War, for example
                    "In total, during the Iran-Iraq war, from October 1981 to June 1988, Iraqi aviation carried out more than 400 attacks on ships with the help of Exosets, about 600 missiles were fired, 250 of which hit targets, resulting in the loss of 115 vessels "
                    And there have been other cases.
                    The fact remains - against warships with modern electronic warfare, anti-ship missiles in real show poor results. Far from a child prodigy, as is commonly believed in RuNet.
                    We are now discussing spherical conic horses in a vacuum - there is no information about the real performance characteristics of AGSN Granites. You do not believe that she can do something, I believe, the sailors believe that she can (who worked with her), in general, there’s no use arguing about anything. A matter of faith, let’s say so.

                    Andrei, you’re absolutely right, there is no TTX and there wasn’t, I don’t argue about how long the Granit range is, but the minimum information about them was enough to see the logical contradictions that I wrote about, in particular, inertial guidance does not allow to implement the data exchange function, since there is no single coordinate system. As well as the fact that allegedly attributed ability to distribute targets cannot be realized on this missile, in principle, for this you need to have a completely different level of situational awareness of the situation.
                    Naturally.

                    Yeah. 30 km and 300 km attack detection range are exactly the same wink
                    Differently.

                    ABOUT! Golden words! :) It is in different ways, for specific tasks (and not all are connected with the escort of AB to the same). Therefore, to talk about the "typical AUG" can only be in the general context, and not when discussing the attack of RCC, and even such a "normal" as Granite wink .
                    Or they attack with part of the missiles, but the "polygon" conditions in the conditions of the 24 electronic warfare stations are nonsense

                    The EW stations are there for self-defense, only one will work against a specific ship radar or anti-aircraft missile seeker. And how can one imagine such collective work against the Berkov line-by-line scanning PFAR?
                    So you still don’t understand what triangulation is.

                    Andrey, I don’t want to upset you, but it seems to me that you don’t understand. :))
                    and the A2 missile, going 500 m to the right

                    or left. or not at 500 m and at 4 km. or left in front.
                    it is unknown where it is going, this other missile is in relation to the first one, either to the right, or to the left, or slightly ahead, or slightly behind - all this is within the normal operation of the inertial guidance system, each missile flies autonomously and their mutual position is not tracked by anyone, which does not allow obtaining the general coordinates of the targets
                    then B1 is G2

                    or B1 is G3 that GSN A2 does not see.
                    that is why it is impossible to calculate triangles for triangulation - each rocket has its vertices :)
                    Of which you have not yet presented any.

                    Introduced from the very beginning, but you do not seem to understand the operation of the inertial guidance system. :)
                    1. 0
                      24 July 2018 20: 22
                      Quote: Avior
                      Each radar has its own characteristics and purpose. GOS RCC including.

                      And since the capabilities of GOS Granita are unknown to us, we need not say that she does not know how to do this or that :)
                      Quote: Avior
                      By the way, in the salvo they go in front (or it will not be a salvo), and other RCCs cannot get into the field of view of the GOS even in principle :))

                      Obviously, they can, since the missiles can line up in front. Technically it’s possible (up to a small side-view radar) so I don’t see a reason to say that this is not
                      Quote: Avior
                      In total, during the Iran-Iraq war, from October 1981 to June 1988, Iraqi aviation carried out more than 400 attacks on ships with the help of Exocets, about 600 missiles were launched, 250 of which were targeted, which led to the loss of 115 ships

                      In-in. I really won’t focus on the fact that, according to my data, Iraq had only 240 Exostets (I didn’t dig this question specifically). But what does this have to do with
                      Quote: Avior
                      The fact remains - against warships with modern electronic warfare, anti-ship missiles in real show poor results.

                      Where in the tanker war were warships with modern electronic warfare? Nowhere. But no, there was one. Frigate "Stark" :)))))
                      Quote: Avior
                      in particular, inertial guidance does not allow the implementation of a data exchange function, since there is no single coordinate system.

                      And I repeat to you that in order to organize an attack it is enough to know the location of the missiles relative to each other and this (theoretically) is easy to do by means that can be installed on missiles
                      Quote: Avior
                      Yeah. 30 km and 300 km attack detection range are exactly the same

                      And who told you that you will see Granite at 300 km? :))))) Do you know its EPR? :))))) You know that in order to bring the EPR of the C-75 and C-200 missiles (for use them as targets for training anti-aircraft gunners) up to 0,75 sq.m. angular reflectors are used, while the missiles themselves (with dimensions similar to those of Granite) obviously had much less EPR?
                      Quote: Avior
                      it’s not known where it is going, this other rocket in relation to the first, either to the right, or to the left, or slightly ahead, or slightly behind, all this within the normal operation of the inertial guidance system

                      Once again :))) Inertial - this is not the only opportunity for missiles to determine the distance and position relative to each other :)))) Lord, yes control of the relative position of the missiles can be technically implemented as one of the functions of the electronic warfare unit - it has all the necessary equipment (antenna etc.) for this there :)))))
                      Quote: Avior
                      EW stations there for self-defense, only one will work against a specific ship’s radar or GOS anti-aircraft missile.

                      Right, and them on 24 rockets 24
                      Quote: Avior
                      And how can one imagine such a collective work against the PFAR with line-by-line scanning of Berkov?

                      How to suppress 6 fire control radars that are on the 2 Burks and provide illumination :)))
                      1. 0
                        24 July 2018 21: 59
                        The frigate Stark was injured because it was precisely because EW was not used. Like Sheffield. wink
                        Once again :))) Inertial is not the only ability of rockets to determine the distance and position relative to each other :))))

                        The inertial guidance system, namely it is on the Granites, basically does not allow this.
                        Obviously, they can, since the missiles can line up in front.

                        In the front they line up with a turn on the target.
                        The missiles are launched at an angle to the target, and at the estimated time, they are turned onto the target at the angle laid during the launch and after that the inertial system guides the missile — this is how a volley is formed.

                        Andrei, at first I made it clear that the statements in Runet about the possibilities of Granite are logically contradictory and would be ready to discuss exactly those that were on the network.
                        But you have surpassed the collective runet, your Granite is growing so much in front of your eyes that I’m afraid to discuss it further - it’s about to explode into space and enter the subspace. laughing
                        If these increased opportunities before our eyes
                        Granite - like a side-view radar or suppressing the target’s beam of illumination - for an April Fool’s article, you’ll use an excellent article, I’ll read it with pleasure. hi
    2. 0
      24 July 2018 00: 28
      ochepyatka
      But such a method is very good for politicized topics.

      should be read But this method is very good for non-politicized topics ....
      1. +1
        24 July 2018 17: 22
        I would say that such a method is good for any topic, but there are colleagues who can make any topic politicized am
        1. 0
          24 July 2018 18: 50
          You confuse cause and effect
          wink
  19. exo
    0
    24 July 2018 11: 50
    Apparently, the Ka-31, in addition to the low speed of patrolling, also has great restrictions on the weather. For example, on the strength of the wind. Yes, and the issue of icing such a "comb" is not known how it was resolved.