Four air rammer "irresponsible Russian"

67 218 132
The self-sacrifice of the Soviet pilots, who marched en masse to air ramming, forced the command of the Luftwaffe to issue a directive prohibiting their pilots from moving closer to the Russians for a dangerous distance. But this did not always help, and even experienced aces became victims of the beardless youths who went on deadly battering rams with the enemy.

The true legend of the Soviet fighter aviation became Boris Kovzan, who committed four such battering rams, and in three cases even managed to land the crippled car at his airfield.




Hero of the Soviet Union Boris Ivanovich Kovzan

Born to fly and fight

A native of the city of Shakhty, the Rostov Region, was born on April 7 of the year 1922. He grew up in the Belarusian city of Bobruisk, which he moved with his parents. Ibid graduated from high school 8 classes.

In 1939, he entered the Odessa Military Aviation School, from which he graduated a year before the war, having mastered the principles of air combat and accurate bombing.


He continued his military service in the Western Special Military District on the territory of the Gomel region (Belarus), honing his flying skills and preparing for a quick confrontation with fighters from Nazi Germany. He flew an obsolete fighter And-15 bis, which would have been an easy target for the German aces that had passed through the whole of Europe.

Four air rammer "irresponsible Russian"

Soviet fighter I-15 bis

The beginning of the Great Patriotic War was stunning. The Soviet Union lost a huge amount of its military equipment. The losses of the planes, many of which the Germans did not even give the opportunity to take off from their airfields, were simply catastrophic, so each fighter was worth its weight in gold.

In the first direct clash with the enemy, Boris Kovzan entered June 24, on the third day of the war. On his I-15 encore, he attacked a German bomber Heinkel-111 (according to other sources, Dornier-215), sending him burning to the ground.


German bomber Dornier-215

Already in the autumn of 1941, he was transferred to serve near Moscow. Boris "saddled" a more modern aircraft Yak-1, which for several months became his true friend and savior.

Cut the fascist tail

The pilot in the group repeatedly takes off for combat missions, driving away German bombers trying to break through to the capital. He enters the air battles, but can not boast a new star on the fuselage of his fighter.

On his first ram, committed 29 October 1941, various sources report differently. Some say that Boris was returning from a combat mission, during which he shot the whole ammunition. Others claim that our pilot’s ammunition ended already during the battle with Hitler’s reconnaissance aircraft Me-110.



Whatever it was, but Boris Kovzan, who did not want to miss the enemy, cut off his tail with his propeller propeller. You need to understand what kind of virtuoso flight technique a pilot should have for this.

The German intelligence officer who entered at the peak exploded on the ground, and the Soviet pilot returned to the airfield, reporting to the command about the results of the sortie. At the same time, he did not consider the perfect ramming a special feat.

The enemy will not pass

21 (according to some sources, 22) February 1942, a group of "Yaks" flew to cover the movement of troops along the Moscow-Leningrad highway in the area of ​​the town of Torzhok, Tver region.

Seeing three German U-88 bomber in the air, Boris Kovzan bravely attacked one of them, dodging counter-fire. In the whirlwind of the air battle, he did not even notice how he had shot all the ammunition, without completing the task.

Then Junior Lieutenant Kovzan decided to repeat his favorite trick. And he succeeded! The Junkers who lost their tail plumage crashed into the ground, and the Soviet pilot returned safely to the airfield.

History about how Boris Kovzan knocks down German planes quickly became overgrown with various details and spread all over the North-Western Front. It was rumored that Goering himself gave orders to never get close to the "irresponsible Russians" in order to prevent the latter from making an air ram.

But when July 7 1942, presented to awarding the Order of Lenin, Junior Lieutenant Boris Kovzan cut off the tail with a screw and the enemy’s third fighter, he became a real legend. And the most interesting - again, as if nothing had happened, he returned to the airfield on his Yak-1.


Soviet fighter Yak-1

Ready to give life for the Motherland

But with the fourth ram, Boris Kovzan was unlucky. Although he was already very lucky that he survived.

13 August 1942 of the year in the sky over Staraya Russa of the Novgorod region his plane was returning from a combat mission. As always, with the ammunition round that was shot to the last bullet.

Suddenly, a link of German Me-109 fighter jets emerged from the clouds. Quickly realizing that the Soviet pilot had nothing to shoot, the Nazis began to play with him in the cat and mouse, using the Yak-1 as an air target.

Methodically shooting Kovzan's fighter, who performed unimaginable aerobatic maneuvers, they managed to smash his cockpit light, seriously wounding the pilot himself (a bullet knocked his eye out). Wanting to give his life more expensive, the pilot turned around and tried to make a frontal ram.

To the surprise of the fascist also did not chickened out. The head-on collision was of such strength that both aircraft scattered into small parts. The German died on the spot, and Kovzan was thrown out of the broken cabin.


Frontal ram

Thank you to the guardian angel

Subsequently, he was never able to accurately remember whether he was tugging at the parachute ring, or if an unknown force opened it. Well, as opened ... Not completely. The pilot at high speed rushed to the ground and fell into the local marsh.

He would surely have drowned if the peasants who did not work nearby, dragged Boris Kovzan out of the swamp and hid just a few minutes before the German search team arrived (the battle went over the occupied territory).

The policemen and the Nazis believed the former collective farmers, who claimed that a bog was swallowed up by the Soviet pilot. Especially since the people themselves didn’t want to smear their boots with “Russian mud”.

Within a couple of days, Boris was transferred to partisans, from where he was evacuated to the mainland.

Achieve your own at any cost

The doctors still managed to save the seriously injured pilot, although it was necessary to remove the damaged right eye. Later, Boris Kovzan told me that 10 months spent at the hospital were the most difficult in his life.

He almost completely regained his health, but the medical commission found the pilot unsuitable for the service of fighter aviation. It was a cruel blow to a guy who barely turned 21 a year.

But that was not the character of the hero, he “pulled out” the medical commission members so much that in the end he was allowed to fly without restrictions. And it is with one eye !!!

Small cog big Victory

Until the end of the war, Boris Kovzan, Hero of the Soviet Union, had 28 air victories, four of which were with the help of a ram.


True, the valiant boldness subsided a bit, and he did not go for more rams.

After the war, he flew jet planes and taught this young recruitment. Colonel Kovzan retired in 1958 in the wake of a massive reduction in the Soviet Army.

For some time he lived in Ryazan, where he headed a local flying club, after which he moved to the capital of Soviet Belarus. Died 31 August 1985 of the year.



Streets in several cities of the former USSR are named after him, and in 2014, Russian Post issued a postage stamp dedicated to the feat of this extraordinary person.
132 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. + 32
    13 July 2018 05: 01
    Man-steel. God forbid that we forget it.
    1. + 22
      13 July 2018 06: 05
      Thanks to the author for the story about another "small cog of the big Victory."
      1. +8
        13 July 2018 13: 55
        The article is not complete.

        The article does not say that at that time in the USSR, ram was considered as a tactical device. At an unofficial level.
        Formally, ramming was prohibited at the time the war began, morally permitted. Pilots in the smoking room discussed the conditions for using the ram.

        The article describing the combat path of the pilot is only confirmation that the scan is higher.

        Later in the USSR, distortions in history, as well as distortions in history in the late USSR, were called battering ram as an act of despair, the last chance.
        This has not always been so.

        Ram, in the USSR was considered as a tactical device.
        1. +1
          20 July 2018 14: 04
          I read Alksnis’s speech at the IAP of Leningrad shortly before his repression,
          there he directly said that ramming was a tactical technique that a fighter pilot should possess, in the same place the leaders of the unit, all who had passed Spain (even the commissar), they said the same thing.
          1. -2
            9 September 2018 15: 55
            Introduce innovations, armor the cockpit and engine for such daredevils, and then send them to slower bombers, in any case the enemy would lose 3 pilots and more expensive equipment, and the armored pilot, if the plane was damaged, would be saved by parachute... Of course, this is fantasy, but in the precious years of 1941-42 it would have given results, because many of our pilots died, with the superiority of the enemy, often in vain...
      2. + 21
        13 July 2018 13: 56
        Quote: Hoc vince
        Thanks to the author for the story about another "small cog of the big Victory."
        I have the honor to tell you about one of the thousands of "cogs", but only FEMALE love On September 12, 1941, the first air ram made by a woman took place. Ekaterina Zelenko with the navigator-gunner on the damaged Su-2 was returning from intelligence. They were attacked by 7 enemy Me-109 fighters. Our plane turned out to be one against seven enemies. The Germans took the Su-2 into the ring. A battle ensued. "Su-2" was hit, both crew members were injured, in addition, the ammunition ran out. Then Zelenko ordered the navigator to leave the plane, and she continued to fight. Soon her ammunition ran out. Then she entered the course of the fascist attacking her and led the bomber closer. From a wing strike on the fuselage, the Messerschmitt broke in half, and the Su-2, which was Catherine also tried to land, hi was attacked by another Me-109 and exploded, while the pilot was thrown out of the cockpit. Thus, Zelenko destroyed the enemy machine, but she herself died. This is the only case of an air ram made by a woman!
        Oh, these Russian women !!! request love hi
        1. +9
          13 July 2018 15: 31
          Thank you Very interesting. You need to know your heroes. Special thanks for the photo.
        2. +8
          14 July 2018 09: 55
          this ram was questioned in our time. But they didn't succeed!!! these ...... forgot that the locals saw this battle! and it was from them that it became known! And in the series of stamps about our rams, one is dedicated to Katya Zelenko. at the same time, this battle showed (this is my personal opinion, I am not imposing it on anyone) the high performance characteristics of my beloved Su-2
  2. +7
    13 July 2018 06: 04
    IRRESPONSIBLE?

    As Mahomet Tolboev says:

    - I'm professional! I am so trained!
    1. +3
      13 July 2018 13: 58
      Ramming was part of pilot training.

      By the way, Warthunder simulates the conditions for using a ram. I managed to use the ram several times and return to the airfield.
      1. +4
        13 July 2018 16: 18
        Wargamers - "warthanders", nearby, across the fence from my work in the neighboring office skyscraper, are sitting, on the outskirts of Minsk...
        By the way, the 5th International is complete. People from St. Petersburg, Moscow, Ukrainians, Chinese, locals from all over Belarus come to work.. The museum of gifts - "tank museum" is awesome! good
  3. + 15
    13 July 2018 06: 17
    He even takes the scumbag from what he read, did not know about such a Hero before! We simply had no right to defeat the fascists, we fought without sparing ourselves: "For the Motherland, for Stalin" !!!!
    1. +1
      21 July 2018 11: 59
      A very good book about B. Kovzan - "Four rams in the sky". It was from this book that I began to love aviation at the age of 9.
  4. + 14
    13 July 2018 06: 42
    Outstanding result
    Put rams on stream and stay alive ... that's something.
    Well, in the fourth case - as in the movie "Only Old Men Go to Battle" - "My German did not turn away." But it’s good that it ended well.
    Interestingly
    1. +9
      13 July 2018 08: 41
      I agree: an incredible case when one pilot makes FOUR TARAN!
      1. +4
        13 July 2018 11: 53
        An incredible case when a pilot makes two battering rams in one battle, we had one))) Russian mentality
        1. +3
          13 July 2018 22: 32
          Lieutenant Shuvalov on Yak-1 made two successful rams in one battle. True, he was seriously injured and died in the hospital.
          1. +4
            14 July 2018 04: 41
            Khlobystov on the American P-40 also had two rams in one battle, and after the battle he returned to the airport, Terekhin on the I-16 with one fire and two bombers with a ram
        2. +3
          14 July 2018 14: 16
          if memory serves- Khlobystov on LaGG-3, Leningrad Front
          1. +1
            15 July 2018 05: 35
            Karelian front, I-153, then the regiment was rearmament to the American R-40 of early and late types.
  5. +5
    13 July 2018 06: 48
    The article is good, but even in the Red Army Air Forces, ramming was considered "bad form" in 1943. But the Japanese Air Force revived and brought the ramming method to a new level, using the "falling sakura petals" tactic since 1944...
    1. +4
      13 July 2018 20: 32
      Well, with 43 just appeared Yak-3 and LA-5 with their subsequent modifications - the need has disappeared.
    2. +3
      14 July 2018 14: 18
      Yes, since 1943 ramming was considered the most extreme means, since the fighter fleet of aircraft increased, but nevertheless, it rammed in 1945! war does not fit into any charters
      1. +1
        14 July 2018 18: 51
        From the age of 43, the main method of ramming was not “cutting off a part of the enemy aircraft”, setting it on fire from a glancing strike on the wing or planes.
        Most German fighters and bombers were all-metal, and the Germans used an aluminum alloy with a predominance of magnesium as the structural material of the wings and body, + minor additives - it was a strong and light alloy, BUT more fragile and (as it turned out) relatively easily flammable, especially if it was intentional ( "glide-strike") of the wing of our aircraft with the German occurred on the oncoming or tangent courses.
  6. + 16
    13 July 2018 07: 15
    To begin with, my comment is in no way an attempt to cast at least the slightest shadow on the heroism of all those famous and unknown pilots who used ramming, but only an addition to the article, what was left behind the scenes.

    Zimin G.V. Fighters. - M .: Military Publishing, 1988.
    Georgy Vasilievich Zimin - Soviet military leader, air marshal, Hero of the Soviet Union.
    According to the author of the memoirs, in October 1942, a new pilot, junior lieutenant Boris Kovzan, appeared in the fighter regiment in which he served. He reported that he was behind his unit and did not know where it was located. The regiment was armed with MiG-3 fighters, on which the young pilot did not fly. With him, classes were organized to study the aircraft, and after a few days the knowledge of the instructions for piloting technique was checked. Then the pilot made several flights in a circle and into the zone. He was included in combat crew. A few days later he did not return from the next flight to the combat mission. And the next day he returned. He returned not on foot, not on a cart or on a passing car, as happened with many pilots who had to parachute from burning and damaged cars. No, I flew in at my moment. And then it turned out that the day before in battle he went to the ram, hit the tail of a German bomber with a screw of his fighter, and it crashed to the ground. Under the ram, Kovzan damaged a propeller and made an emergency landing in the field. He managed to repair the screw in the collective farm forge. The pilot accomplished the feat, and was greeted with great joy and sincere enthusiasm.
    But after some time, the technicians reported to the deputy regiment commander G.V. Zimin that the pilot spent only half of the ammunition. We checked the weapon - it worked flawlessly. The question arose: if the pilot approached the bomber closely and had half of the ammunition, then why didn’t he shoot? We thought that probably everything happened in the heat of air combat. The pilot is young, there is a lot of courage, but there is still not enough experience, so I decided to chop it off ... But this, it would seem, natural assumption had to be discarded. Indeed, in order to make such a ram and at the same time get rid of only damage to the propeller blades, one must be an amazingly cold-blooded person. There was no talk of any ardor. It was obvious that deciding on a ram, Boris Kovzan risked his life more than if he had simply fired at a close range at a bomber. Therefore, he preferred the more difficult and less rational path.
    It should be noted that in the conditions of air supremacy of enemy aviation, often fighting on outdated, weakly armed vehicles, Soviet pilots destroyed 1284 enemy aircraft in the first month of the war. This speaks not only of high moral-volitional quality, but also of the combat professional skills of aviators. Ramans do not achieve such results.
    During a confidential conversation with the junior lieutenant Kovzan, the deputy regiment commander was forced to warn that if he didn’t explain why he didn’t shoot, then the pilot would have to be suspended. Here is this conversation:
    “I can't shoot,” the pilot said painfully.
    - How can you not? The captain asked in amazement. You fought in your regiment?
    - I flew communication aircraft ... If I said this, you would not have taken me to the regiment ...
    The captain was stunned: from the U-2 transfer to the MiG-3!
    “Why didn’t you study the weapon system and at least the basics of the theory and rules of aerial shooting?”
    - I was afraid to ask ... I would immediately determine that I am not a fighter pilot. Forced to be silent. Well, I had to use a ram.
    Naturally, one can understand the desire of a connected plane pilot to become a fighter and directly destroy the enemy. But the question is? Where were the officers of the regiment responsible for the fire training of the pilot, who were obliged to daily control their knowledge of the armament of the aircraft and the ability to fire at air and ground targets? First of all, the regiment's armament engineer was obliged to do this.
    But, as you can see, even after the first ram, and in the future no conclusions were made. Everything, presumably, came down to praising the heroism of the pilot.

    The pilot himself did not show initiative in developing the armament of the aircraft, although the secondment from the fighter regiment after the accomplished feat no longer threatened him.
    There are many educational measures from verbal remarks to suspension from flights to encourage the pilot to learn how to own the weapons of his plane. But as the practice of his combat activity shows, nothing has been done. The pilot did not believe in the effectiveness of the fighter’s weapons and continued to ram the enemy’s aircraft, exposing his life to completely unjustified danger.
    By the way, three times Heroes of the Soviet Union A.I. Pokryshkin and I.N. Kozhedub, who won 59 and 62 victories, respectively, did not use a ram.
    1. +1
      13 July 2018 08: 13
      Almost does not intersect with the above story. Nothing in common except the first name, last name, what is the story of the fighter. How so? Full namesake?
      1. +4
        13 July 2018 08: 43
        The pilot who made four rams one - Boris Kovzan. You do not want to ask the author of the article a question about the sources?
    2. +6
      13 July 2018 08: 19
      According to the author of the memoirs, in October 1942 ... from the U-2 transfer to the MiG-3.

      Similarly, with all due respect to the recollections of the Air Marshal. In the summer of the 41st, I-15 bis ... in the fall of 1941, Yak-1. And where is U-2, sclerosis or OBS.
      1. 0
        13 July 2018 08: 54
        Dear Yefgan and The Thinker, do you doubt Zimin's memoirs? But suppose, in fantasy order, Zimin will say that he doubts what was said above?
        1. +2
          13 July 2018 10: 37
          And let's say, in the order of fantasy ...
          Following the fantasy and this did not happen:
          ... on the third day of the war. On his I-15 bis, he attacked the German bomber Heinkel-111 (according to other sources, Dornier-215), sending him burning to the ground.
      2. + 14
        13 July 2018 09: 16
        With all due respect to the author of the article, I trust the air marshal more, since he and Kovzan are colleagues from the 42nd Fighter Aviation Regiment, in which Kovzan carried out the first three rammings.
        On June 22, 1941, it was part of the 57th mixed aviation division, and was stationed at airfields in Vilnius, Orany, and Perloy. It was armed with 101 I-153, I-15 bis (including 8 faulty) aircraft and 59 combat-ready pilots.
        The regiment lost its equipment so quickly that its presence at the front was not even recorded.
        Since July 1941, it was re-formed in the rear, in Orel, relearning to MiG-3 in the amount of 32 pilots. The selection of pilots for the regiment was carried out by V. I. Stalin.
        Since August 16, 1941 he has been on combat duty as part of air defense, covering Bryansk, Oryol, Kursk, Tula on airplanes MiG-3.

        The indicated regiment did not fly on Yak 1 aircraft. This fact is verified by archival documents.
        However, in various biographies of Kovzan, aircraft such as the MiG-3, Yak-1, and even La-5 appear.
        Thus, on the website "Heroes of the Country" it is indicated that Kovzan performed his first three ramming attacks on a MiG-3, and the fourth on a La-5, although the 744th Fighter Aviation Regiment, where Kovzan served at that time, flew a Yak-1.
        Therefore, neither OBS nor sclerosis is involved. The author was repeatedly advised to more carefully study the topic and not be shy at the end of the article to briefly list the sources that he used. The beauty and attractiveness of the article will not be lost from this, they will not diminish the significance of exploits, but they will add informational content and objectivity.
        1. +1
          14 July 2018 20: 34
          Quote: Curious
          The indicated regiment did not fly on Yak 1 aircraft. This fact is verified by archival documents.

          Ask for archives? Please - Title: ml. lieutenant
          in the Red Army since 1939 Place of service: 744 IAP NWF
          Date of achievement: 22.06.1941-01.11.1941,25.11.1941-29.11.1941,21.02
          .1942
          At this time he took part in hostilities consisting of 126; 42; 184 and 744 IAP
          From the performance of Boris Ivanovich Kovzan -

          From the performance of Boris Ivanovich Kovzan -

          744th Fighter Aviation Regiment
          Formed in August 1941 by isolating 20 “IAP” from the “mother”, keeping the same number: 20 IAP. He was armed with Yak-1 aircraft. It was part of the 61 gardens of the Bryansk Front.
          18.01.42/744/XNUMX, renamed XNUMX IAP.
          Quote: Curious
          I trust Air Marshal more


          Boris Ivanovich himself recalls:

          - My heart was bleeding when I found out that on the first day of the war several bombs were dropped on my native Bobruisk. On the third day of the war, German "vultures" were spotted in the sky over Gomel, where I served. He asked permission to take off ... Fascist Ace impudently behaved. It made me even more so! Well, I think I'll show you now where the crayfish hibernate. I chose a comfortable position and opened fire. The ace flared up and went down ...

          Battle of Moscow, October 29, 1941, fighting as part of the 42nd Fighter Aviation Regiment in a MiG-3 aircraft
          - I fired at an enemy convoy, I suddenly noticed the Messerschmitt-110, which “covered” its own. I decided to attack. I knew that aircraft of this type have strong offensive weapons and a coaxial machine gun that protected the rear hemisphere. Nonetheless, I managed to hit the arrowbut the ammunition ran out, and the fuel was running out. Then he went to the ram ... Himself landed safely at its airfield.

          After all of the above, according to the marshal
          “I can't shoot,” the pilot said painfully.
          - How can you not? The captain asked in amazement. You fought in your regiment?
          - I flew communication aircraft ... If I said this, you would not have taken me to the regiment ...

          In your opinion goes Boris Ivanovich Kovzan? Or an inaccuracy in Marshal's memoirs?
          February 22, 1942 Senior Lieutenant Kovzan in the Vyshny Volochyok area on a fighter Yak-1 the enemy bomber rammed again. And again he landed on a damaged plane.
          And also "in service", again from the words of Boris Ivanovich
          — When I rammed the enemy for the third time, my plane already had several holes, but it still obeyed me. The German pilot bailed out, but it got tangled in the wreckage of the burning plane... I somehow landed on the wrecked plane. The residents of the village of Demyanik, over which the battle took place, watched the duel. A crowd of children ran up to me: "Uncle, uncle..." What kind of uncle am I to you, I tell them, I'm only in my twenties... Although I was terribly tired, I didn't risk leaving the car. I knew that the locals could steal the valuable parts. I waited for the local policeman...

          The fourth ram according to Boris Ivanovich
          - I already had a meeting with this arrogant fascist pilot. But then he left. In the same battle, I decided not to miss the chance. Neither he nor I had any ammunition. I suggested (with signs understandable to the pilot) a frontal attack. He did not scare, counted, it is clear that I can’t stand it ... But it wasn’t there. Our planes collided. Of course, they shattered ...

          And at the end
          — To be fair, it should be noted that there were some desperate guys among the German pilots too. Some enemy planes were defiantly decorated with 30-40 or more crosses. Somewhere over Africa, France or at the beginning of the war over our territory, they easily achieved victories. But soon the situation changed. For example, as soon as I or my fellow countryman Fyodor Arkhipenko took off, the radio would intercept the German call signs: “Achtung, Achtung!” And then the order would follow to avoid combat in every possible way...
          - 28 of these brave men were awarded only birch crosses from me! And, thank God, I walk on the earth and sometimes go up to heaven - I teach young people ...

    3. +4
      13 July 2018 09: 01
      Quote: Curious
      By the way, three times Heroes of the Soviet Union A.I. Pokryshkin and I.N. Kozhedub, who won 59 and 62 victories, respectively, did not use a ram.

      And rightly so, why should the ram ram, if it is possible to fly up close and shoot at close range - this is somehow more effective than chopping tails with a screw. A ram is more from despair, a greater risk to life and aircraft. And the master ace, worth its weight in gold in all the air forces was
    4. +5
      13 July 2018 12: 31
      Quote: Curious
      By the way, three times Heroes of the Soviet Union A.I. Pokryshkin and I.N. Kozhedub, who won 59 and 62 victories, respectively, did not use a ram.

      They just had to be transplanted on the MiG. At first, these aircraft very seriously spoiled the blood for both pilots and technicians by the mystery and insanity of their weapons.
      Quote: Curious
      “I can't shoot,” the pilot said painfully.

      And then who shot the half of the ammunition?
      Not being able to shoot on a fighter with serviceable weapons, while having the opportunity to approach a battering ram range is some kind of nonsense. All right, look there, reap here. It’s another matter if instead of control it is necessary to periodically pull the reload handle, which goes and goes. At the same time, with a left turn, for example, this handle will be jammed tightly (it seems like a dull skew of the cartridge is corrected only on the ground), and with a right turn or after landing it suddenly appears that it works fine. Well, such a pilot will land “googol”, with an unfulfilled task, unexpended ammunition, but with serviceable weapons. Despite the fact that the special officers specifically caught all kinds of pests, accomplices and just cowards. And in the case of a battering ram - here it is, clear evidence, a characteristic twisted screw. That's just for a successful ram you need to be a master pilot. Especially if you try to attach your tail to the same Yu-87, which is slow but maneuverable and with an arrow in the rear hemisphere.
      Quote: Curious
      Zimin G.V. Fighters. - M .: Military Publishing, 1988.

      88th year. The height of perestroika. Censorship is not the same. Nevertheless, there are some jokes in the barracks, and others in the headquarters, including those about the “stupid soldier”.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. +4
          13 July 2018 15: 48
          Quote: Curious
          It is not worth cleverly commenting on questions about which you do not have the most distant idea.

          You are wrong. There are questions that will puzzle not only me, as you say, a "couch pilot", but also any person with at least some logic. A soldier fired half of his ammunition. But when he came close to the target, he stopped firing and allegedly said that he did not know how to shoot. And it allegedly turned out that, yes, he really did not know how. If you really want to defend the reputation of the narrator, even if he is a three-time marshal, Brezhnev, Khrushchev and other war heroes, then please explain what the pilot had to do to simply open fire, if the weapon was supposedly in good working order? What was he unable to do when he came close to the target. What did he have to be taught?
          Quote: Curious
          Then tell us on the site, if you are an honest person, what king of air you are.

          I suggest you reread your text carefully. It is not about piloting, which this combat pilot had at a high level. It is about the impossibility of opening fire. At the same time, the reason given is as if this is not an effective pilot, but a monkey that just yesterday got out of a cage and is unable to perform the simplest actions. I did not like this approach. Of course, I understand that the original source is no longer a military man, but a politician, he has had different views for most of his life, a different social circle, and perestroika is in the yard, he could relax. That is why I do not trust him, especially unconditionally.
          1. 0
            13 July 2018 19: 34
            Quote: brn521
            You shouldn’t be so. There are questions that will perplex not only me, as you say, the “couch pilot”, but also any person who knows at least some logic. The fighter shot half the ammunition. But approaching the target almost point blank, he stopped the fire and allegedly declared that he was not able to shoot. And supposedly it turned out that yes, really can not.

            For you, it seems, the ability to shoot means the ability to point the gun in the right direction toward the target and "pull the trigger." For a combat fighter pilot, obviously, the ability to shoot is the ability to hit air targets with the aircraft's weapons.
          2. +1
            13 July 2018 21: 25
            I have not just recommended that you "ride".
            Air combat is not a pancake flight. With such a flight, you are dead. The pilot is experiencing very severe overload.
            The relative speed of aircraft moving up to 1000 km / h at that time. Moreover, in three coordinates.
            And at the same time, you do not just have to press the trigger. In all this dynamics, you need to aim taking into account the distance and angle of the target.
            And the target is returning fire at you. Therefore, between the ability to shoot ammunition and the ability to hit the target a huge distance.
            1. +1
              14 July 2018 03: 12
              And at the same time, you do not just have to press the trigger. In all this dynamics, you need to aim taking into account the distance and angle of the target.

              Repeatedly in the memoir literature I met a description of the method of firing "rivets" That is, approaching the enemy aircraft at a distance from which the rivets are visible to the naked eye and only after that opening fire. I suppose that with this aiming method, the angle of the target is not significant and it is not necessary to take the lead. I think that the widespread use of this method is associated with not very successful sights of domestic production and insufficient training of flight personnel.
              In this case, we are discussing approaching an even smaller distance, up to contact, and from my couch I assume that from such distances it is really enough to hit the trigger to hit the target without bothering to aim.
            2. 0
              16 July 2018 13: 20
              Quote: Curious
              I have not just recommended that you "ride".
              Air combat is not a pancake flight.

              So what are we talking about? I’m trying to explain to you that if the pilot was able to sit on the tail of the junkers and carefully chop off that tail, without screwing its own propeller and engine, then there is no question of aiming. And about the ability to shoot, too. It’s the same as putting a gun to the opponent’s forehead.
              Over the weekend, the Junkers of the same fighting strength did not find anything. He simply recalled the late Germans, how they rammed four-engined bombers, having much more powerful weapons. Just because the ammunition available was not enough to drop the same flying fortress. In our case, there could be something similar. Those. the heavy machine gun jammed, and 7,62 at that time was already a scarecrow. It doesn’t penetrate the armor, the flashlight penetrates only at point-blank angles, they will have to dig out the engine for a long time and carefully, in the case of a fighter it’s not known how to keep the aiming point on a maneuvering target (it is easier for the defender, the target climbs into the sight). Even the steering thrust is not able to interrupt, except to jam with a successful hit. Of these weapons, one really needs to be "able to shoot."
              1. +1
                16 July 2018 13: 44
                Everything seems to have found the most likely answer. On the same Yak-1, they initially set the mechanical and pneumomechanical descents of the gun and machine guns, which required both hands to fire. In the process of modernization was replaced by an electric and pneumoelectric, which were actuated by the release button and the trigger on the control handle. Now it was possible to fire only with one right hand, the left was released, as a result, for example, it was possible to control the motor modes during maneuvering. Thus, apparently, the pilot on the Yak-1 against the same Junkers did not have to sit on the tail, but fire at random, pulling bursts along and across from medium and long distances (the closer, the more difficult it is to aim and more difficult to pilot ) It is not surprising that 7,62 machine guns on the Yaks have been preserved for so long - with this method of firing no ammunition is enough. But the Yak-1B with all the necessary corrections appeared later than Boris Ivanovich Kovzan made his ram on the Yak-1.
      2. +4
        13 July 2018 13: 50
        Quote: brn521
        Quote: Curious
        By the way, three times Heroes of the Soviet Union A.I. Pokryshkin and I.N. Kozhedub, who won 59 and 62 victories, respectively, did not use a ram.

        They just had to be transplanted on the MiG. At first, these aircraft very seriously spoiled the blood for both pilots and technicians by the mystery and insanity of their weapons.
        .
        Pokryshkin started with the MiG, flew on it 2 of the year, then briefly the Yak-1 and then only the “foreign car”
        1. +1
          13 July 2018 16: 02
          Quote: Yakov Volgushev
          Pokryshkin from MiG and started, flew on it for 2 years

          Thank you for your comment. True, there is a nuance. He began as a senior lieutenant, deputy squadron commander. Kovzan was an ordinary pilot, junior lieutenant. The technique came different. If at Art. the lieutenant pokryshkin in the battle will refuse weapons, he will be given another plane. If the weapon will fail at ml. Lieutenant Kovzan, then his technician will do what he can. There is some difference.
          1. +2
            14 July 2018 04: 45
            Senior Lieutenant Pokryshkin no one else will give the plane, for the reason that there are no superfluous. In the shelves from 50% of cars from the staff, in the memoirs of the same Pokryshkin there are references to factory defects of his plane, which the technician could not fix, and nothing, the second grade was not defective, flew
      3. 0
        13 July 2018 20: 43
        I sincerely congratulate you absolutely and competently reasoned!
      4. 0
        13 July 2018 21: 24
        Pokryshkin started the war on the MiG-3. Read his memoirs.
      5. 0
        15 July 2018 13: 45
        Quote: brn521
        Quote: Curious
        By the way, three times Heroes of the Soviet Union A.I. Pokryshkin and I.N. Kozhedub, who won 59 and 62 victories, respectively, did not use a ram.
        They just had to be transplanted on the MiG. At first, these aircraft very seriously spoiled the blood for both pilots and technicians by the mystery and insanity of their weapons.

        For connoisseurs, Alexander Ivanovich Pokryshkin began to fight precisely on the MiG-3. Learn the story.
  7. +3
    13 July 2018 09: 11
    It was rumored that Goering himself gave the order to never get close to the "insane Russians", so as not to allow the latter to commit an air ram.
    It was not a ramming, but a duel. Because the closer the fire is, the more likely it is to hit, when firing ahead. Accordingly, in a close duel, the pilot's skill does not play such a role as in a battle on turns. So the seasoned German aces suffered serious losses, out of their disdain for the enemy, testing his nerves, getting as close as possible for a duel. And ours often did not dodge, but went straight to the enemy to the end, and then whoever hits first!
    1. +2
      13 July 2018 10: 43
      Quote: Stirbjorn
      Here are the seasoned German aces and suffered serious losses, out of their neglect of the enemy, testing his nerves, getting as close as possible for a duel. And ours often did not evade, and perl directly to the enemy to the end, and then who gets the first!

      Dear Mikhail, you have some extremely distorted idea about air combat (I think, probably based on a number of Soviet memoirs, to the writing of which combat pilots often had nothing to do). Just for reference - not a single normal ace in the Luftwaffe simply DID NOT go into frontal attacks IN PRINCIPLE. In general, I do not understand the purpose of glorifying frontal attacks in the Red Army Air Forces, as well as air ramming, these are primitive and generally not particularly effective techniques...

      Most of the real German "experts" (i.e. not just aces who shot down 5-7-10 planes, but those who scored more than 40-60 victories in the air) DID NOT RECOGNIZE the air carousel as such! A lightning-fast attack from above or below, a strike - and a lightning-fast escape. That's all. Then - depending on the situation, often a repetition: assess the situation - quickly and quietly strike - escape. That's how they returned from a combat sortie with several downed...

      The very same Erich Hartman himself wrote that MINIMUM 80% of the pilots of the planes he shot down simply did not suspect his presence and did not see his attack at all.
      1. +7
        13 July 2018 11: 40
        Quote: Warrior2015
        The very same Erich Hartman himself wrote that MINIMUM 80% of the pilots of the planes he shot down simply did not suspect his presence and did not see his attack at all.

        Well, this tactic is good for free hunting, which is what Hartman did most of. Accordingly, his track record, mostly fighters. And if you need to attack dozens of enemy bombers undercover ?! Surprise here is practically excluded, and only at the first moment. A characteristic moment when he was sent to reflect American raids. He simply chose mustangs for himself, and strategists at that time leveled quietly bombing objects on the ground hi My post concerned the first months of the war, when the Germans took liberties, which Goering was indignant at.
        1. +1
          13 July 2018 17: 14
          Quote: Stirbjorn
          Well, this tactic is good for free hunting, which is what Hartman did most of.

          This tactic is also good for clearing the air before the arrival of its bombers. Instead of directly escorting the bombers, when the initiative is given to the enemy, and the fighters are constrained in maneuver and speed need not to break away from the covered vehicles, you can send a group of fighters in advance to the area of ​​work, who will remove the link / squadron covering the enemy’s troops / object and clear the sky for the quiet operation of the bombers .
          True, there are a couple of subtle points. First, you need to “clear the sky” just before the arrival of the bombers - otherwise the enemy’s IA reserves caused by duty forces and ground posts may arrive at the battlefield. And there is a chance not to have time to crack down on duty before the approach of the shock. And, secondly, all this is valid until the enemy has data on the air situation behind the front line - otherwise the enemy’s IA reserves will go into the bombers' work zone even before they approach, and it will not be possible to quickly clear the zone.
        2. 0
          13 July 2018 18: 52
          Quote: Stirbjorn
          Accordingly, his track record, mostly fighters. And if you need to attack dozens of enemy bombers undercover ?! Surprise here is practically excluded, and only at the first moment. A characteristic moment when he was sent to reflect American raids. He just chose mustangs for his goals, and strategists at that time leveled quietly bombing objects on the ground

          Well, on the Eastern Front, he quite successfully fought - exactly the same: superiority in height and diving - a blow to cover fighters - a blow to bombers - going down or with a candle up.

          He also had no problems with IL-2 or Pe-2. But on the Western Front with formations of heavy Western bombers, pilots from the East had to learn to fight for a long time.
      2. +4
        13 July 2018 13: 06
        The same Erich Hartman himself wrote that the MINIMUM 80% of the pilots of the planes shot down by him

        ,, from an interview with Marshal Ivan Ivanovich Pstygo:

        “All this is a lie,” said Ivan Ivanovich without hesitation, as if this answer had long been prepared by him, and the conviction had been endured. “Why hasn’t 50 more than anyone known for Hartman?” During the war, the Germans shouted: "Al Pokryshkin in the air!". No one heard about Hartman either on the ground or in the air. And I did not hear about him in the war. He is 1921 year of birth, jerk. Began to fight in 1943 year. When did you get so many? And my most important argument is this: the pilot has a document above the passport - his flight book. Show me the Hartman flight book, and I will believe. But it is not. In Pokryshkin all downed aircraft recorded. And in half a century he was erected on a pedestal of glory.
        1. +2
          13 July 2018 15: 22
          Well, since Marshal Pstigo does not believe, because no one came to him and showed Hartman's flight book - that means there wasn’t.
          1. +1
            13 July 2018 16: 09
            Hartman's flight log (with notes for most of his victories) was taken away by the Russians when he was captured, from whom he later escaped (according to his own memoirs)
            1. +2
              13 July 2018 16: 16
              Pstygo is simply disappointed to be aware of the fact that German fighters shot down more aircraft than Soviet (and others). Instead of real facts in his head stories like “The Germans shouted during the war:“ As Pokryshkin is in the air! ”Nobody heard about Hartman either on the ground or in the air. And I did not hear about him in the war.” Since he had not heard anything about Harman, then no one had heard of him at all. Which, to put it mildly, is not so.
              Although, the fact that Hartman’s account is not overblown is likely.
              1. +4
                13 July 2018 16: 27
                Well, actually, 5 thousand (approximately) downed planes in favor of the USSR.
              2. 0
                13 July 2018 20: 37
                . Instead of real facts in his head, he said: “During the war, the Germans shouted:“ Al Pokryshkin in the air! ”But nobody heard about Hartman either on the ground or in the air. And I did not hear about him in the war.” Once he is nothing about
                ",,,who went through the entire war and met its end as the commander of an assault aviation regiment,,,a man with stories in his head?? request
              3. +2
                13 July 2018 21: 05
                No Germans from 43 year WARNED their pilots: "Attention, attention in the air Pokryshkin"!
                This is not a story. As you write, my father heard that - the navigator of the Pe-2 in 43 - he knew spoken German very well. from the age of 6 he talked with the Germans (mainly mechanics) from the Lipetsk school of pilots. In their free time, the Germans were engaged in aircraft modeling and attracted our boys.
                A more severe warning from the Germans was already at the end of 44 (when most of the pre-war German ASes had already stopped flying), although it concerned not Pakryshkin, but the Yak-3 and its subsequent modifications: "With aircraft that have air intakes at the base of the wings (a characteristic distinguishing feature of the Yaks during the Great Patriotic War) - engage in combat ONLY if there is numerical superiority."
                1. 0
                  13 July 2018 22: 32
                  Quote: Sergei Pavlovich
                  No Germans from 43 year WARNED their pilots: "Attention, attention in the air Pokryshkin"!

                  The question is interesting, it could have been ...

                  Quote: Sergei Pavlovich
                  A harsher warning from the Germans was already at the end of the 44 year (when most of the pre-war German ASs had already stopped flying), though it did not concern Pakryshkin, but the YAK-3 and its subsequent modifications: "With airplanes with air intakes at the base of the wings (a characteristic distinguishing feature of the Yaks of the times WWII) - engage in battle ONLY with numerical superiority. "

                  This phrase shows that you, unfortunately, have a very rough idea of ​​the air war and the Luftwaffe.

                  Firstly, none of the aces stopped flying. Of which such pre-war? which veterans of World War I, who are comrades of Goering and Udet? so they did not fly practically.
                  Veterans of the war in Spain? so they flew until the end of WWII, if they were still alive.
                  And veterans who appeared in the midst of the Second World War, and flew, while there was an opportunity.

                  Now about the opportunity. From the end of summer and the beginning of autumn of the 1944 of the year, the Luftwaffe identified extremely serious fuel problems. The planes finally began to heap, but ... the trained pilots ran out and gasoline became rapidly lacking.
                  1. 0
                    18 July 2018 18: 54
                    to Ratnik2015 (Mikhail)
                    In my opinion, YOU yourself answered your “remark”, among the Germans: “... the pilots ran out ...” and the planes (I added this from myself) “google” about the number of captured German planes, they killed them because . (like us in 41) put their "boys", well, maybe a little better prepared.
            2. +1
              13 July 2018 16: 35
              The flight book of Hartman (with marks of the majority of victories) was taken captive by the Russians, from whom he then fled (
              ,, so it was in 1943 ,, could make a new what
              1. +2
                13 July 2018 16: 41
                Well, I started it, and then they "painted" (truth or not) there will no one ever know.
              2. 0
                13 July 2018 16: 46
                Quote: bubalik
                The flight book of Hartman (with marks of the majority of victories) was taken captive by the Russians, from whom he then fled (
                ,, so it was in 1943 ,, could make a new what

                With the first 150 victories, the book was preserved, this second one was gone, but there is also a diary of the squadron, something was restored from them. Here, the first 150 detailed infa
                https://e-reading.mobi/chapter.php/103498/24/Kons
                tebl% 27% 2C_Toliver _-_ Erih_Hartmann _-_ belokuryii_r
                ycar% 27_reiiha.html
                And the fact that aviation veterans are often confused, such as this marshal, is so common. I remember one claiming that our ace Safonov flew to a German airfield and dropped the pennant off the one-on-one offer right in the middle, and the Germans were probably scared. Although, from the point of view of military logic, it was necessary not to throw bombs with pennants, but onto the planes below
                1. +2
                  13 July 2018 20: 03
                  Here on the first 150 detailed info
                  ,, I do not know which 150 or 352 wins, ,,, if in the west they write about only 80 that are confirmed ,,,
                  http://alternathistory.com/eshche-raz-o-pobedakh-
                  e-khartmanna? page = 1
        2. 0
          13 July 2018 18: 56
          Quote: bubalik
          Why didn’t anyone know 50 over the years of Hartman? In the war, the Germans shouted: "As Pokryshkin is in the air!" No one has heard of Hartman either on earth or in the air.

          Even in Soviet camps, investigators knew him very well. And if Comrade Pstigo does not know anything about the aces of the Luftwaffe, then this does not speak in favor of the knowledge of this comrade, excuse me.
          1. +2
            13 July 2018 20: 10
            Even in the Soviet camps, investigators knew him very well.
            ,, You can ask, in what camps and which investigators?
            The legend of the "black tulip"
            The Germans claim that since the moment when black stripes, like tulip petals, were drawn on the nose of his Messerschmitt, its results have greatly decreased. As if due to the fact that the Soviet radio interception services quickly determined that Hartmann flew the plane with a “black tulip”, the Soviet command, every time it appeared, gave an order to its pilots to leave the battlefield. In fact, it is absolutely impossible to prove. On the contrary, there is evidence that the Germans themselves passed on their crews "Achtung, achtung, Pokryshkin ist in der luft!". If the information that the Soviet intelligence when moving aircraft Luftwaffe almost no interest in their pilots. Hartmann's name said nothing to the Soviet headquarters, and some of them only found out about him in the second half of 1944 by analyzing the interrogation reports of the JG 52 pilots who fell into their hands.
            1. +1
              13 July 2018 22: 28
              Quote: bubalik
              one may be interested in which camps and which investigators?

              In the very ones in which he sat after the end of the war, was held captive for 11 years.


              Quote: bubalik
              The Germans claim that since the moment when black stripes, like the petals of a tulip, were drawn on the nose of his "Messerschmitt", his results were greatly reduced.

              And this is a well-known fact - the Soviet Air Force initially believed that aces fly on grinded planes, and therefore they have always shown special interest in them.

              Quote: bubalik
              The name of Hartmann did not say anything to the Soviet headquarters, and some of them learned about it only in the second half of 1944, having analyzed the protocols of interrogation of pilots JG 52,

              So I say that after 1945 year! Hartman was specifically charged not only with the destruction of 340 Soviet aircraft, but also with the killing of several hundred civilians.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. 0
                  13 July 2018 23: 09
                  Quote: bubalik
                  and why so many airplanes., half are not confirmed by the Soviet side,

                  Due to the global nature of the theater of operations, the situation with the mutual confirmation of victories on the Soviet-German front is very difficult (unlike, for example, the North African or Italian theater). It depends on so many factors. And the problem with confirming the victories of the Soviet aces, if you dig deep, also gets up very serious ...

                  And yet - Hartman was shot down 2 times and 16 times he went on a failed plane to an emergency landing. But this is a good result and he always got off very happily (for a reason, he had the full nickname "Lucky Baby"), because he has St. 1400 sorties and 825 air battles (and this is almost as much as the whole spent. !!!! Normandy-Neman squadron for the whole war! - 900 air battles. And why Hartman could not shoot down 352 aircraft in 825 battles, when during the 900 battles the entire Normandy squadron shot down the 273 German vehicles? and the factor of having a large number of air targets was in his favor, not ours).
                  1. +2
                    13 July 2018 23: 48
                    . he has St. 1400 departures and 825 aerial
                    ,, terminator? ,,, and for me like that ,,, brehlo No.
                    1. +3
                      14 July 2018 01: 18
                      Quote: bubalik
                      terminator ?,, and for me so ,,, nonsense

                      Well, not a terminator, but physically prepared was excellent. And sometimes crashed on 5-6 flights per day.

                      And a little more, so that you understand something about the peculiarities of the air war over the USSR:

                      1. It was accepted among the "Lufts" that in any group of aircraft raised for a certain mission, the command in the air was not given to the senior in rank, but to the most experienced pilot with the maximum number of victories (in bombers and attack aircraft - with the maximum number of combat sorties). And even a major or a colonel had to obey him, even if he was a private or a sergeant major. But - only in the air. Can you imagine something like that in our country?!?

                      2. How many people serviced an airplane in the Red Army Air Forces? At best, just a couple of them... A mechanic, a gunsmith, a motor mechanic... Plus our eternal problems with logistics, when there is no fuel, or oil...
                      And in the Luftwaffe then (and as in most countries of the world now) a bunch of people prepare the plane before takeoff, usually 10-12-15. Quickly refuel, quickly charge, quickly check and repair. The most complete analogy is the preparation of a Formula 1 car in a box! Hence the ability to easily make 4-6 combat sorties a day.

                      3. The "Lufts" accepted that the pilot had no right to free hunting, and no rights at all, until he became an ace (5-7, at the end of the war at least 10-12 victories). Only as a wingman for close cover of bombers (although this was rare) or some group sorties. The "green" pilot had to get used to the air, learn to fly in combat. The same Hartman at the beginning of his career in his first 91 sorties shot down only 7 Soviet aircraft!

                      After receiving the title of ace and the Yellow Cross of the 2 degree, he had the right to fly to free hunting.

                      After receiving the Iron Cross of the 1 degree - the right to own coloring of the aircraft and the choice of followers.

                      After receiving the Knight's Cross (from 40-60 victories in the West and the Mediterranean, and from 40-60-80-100-120 victories in the East, the count was increasing annually) - the right to choose the aircraft (for example, he could take the only new machine that had just arrived), the right to choose missions and tasks, by and large, at his own discretion (and not at the discretion of the senior officer of the air regiment, although he was obliged to coordinate them with him), and even the right to choose the squadron for service (the Geschwader and the front could not be changed, but it was possible to submit a report, requesting a transfer). And of course the right to choose "his own" flight-schwarm, i.e. in essence, the ace is accompanied during his attacks by a wingman personally selected by him, and is covered from above by a special cover pair. All this simply could not be imagined in the Soviet Air Force...
                    2. +2
                      14 July 2018 15: 55
                      Report of the German war correspondent Eckert (G. Eckert) about Hartmann's 300 victory. 24 August 1944 in the Sandomierz area can be cited as an excellent example of Dr. Goebbels’s propaganda. The event is described as follows:

                      «All those present gathered around the radio and its two spaced speakers, for this event could happen from minute to minute. The operator was nervous, fearing to miss the message about the 300 th victory won by a German pilot.

                      15: 50 Hartmann Land: “Enemy fighters are approaching Sandomir!”

                      16: 00 Hartmann: "I knocked him down!"

                      16: 03 Hartmann: "I knocked him down!"

                      16: 06 Hartmann Land: “Watch the sector above you, the cobra is on your right”

                      16: 09 Hartmann: “Great! I'm going to do it too. ” Then, one minute later - "I knocked him down!"

                      16: 10 Slave to Hartmann: “Congratulations on your 300.”


                      Against the background of the enthusiastic enthusiasm of the Germans, events continue to develop. Twice more, Hartmann reported that the Soviet plane had just exploded in the air, so by the evening he shot down eleven belay enemy aircraft.
                      They were all counted. request

                      If you believe this report, Bell P-39 Airacobra from the 4 Air Army (they, according to the Soviet archives, then patrolled over the Vistula in the Sandomierz region) took off that day in order to serve as targets to the German ace. In fact, opponents who opposed 24 August 1944 to Mr. Hartmann were well-known and experienced pilots of the 9 Guards Fighter Aviation Division, caused by Colonel A.I. Pokryshkin (this division was part of the 4 th air army), and its commander a few days before it received its third Golden Star of the Hero of the Soviet Union.

                      If the style of the German report already allows us to assume that the success of the ace has been greatly exaggerated, then reality surpasses everything that could be supposed. Referring to the log of the fighting soldier 4 th Air Army, we can make sure that these pilots are from the army of SA Krasovsky, covering part of the 1 of the Ukrainian Front in the area of ​​the bridgehead on the left bank of the Vistula, and the 9-I Guards Fighter Division was part of this military unit. The 29 page of the above document suggests that none Yes the plane was not shot down in a 24 august 1944 August air combat; also no cars wink was not classified as "not returning from a combat sortie." Therefore, with a high degree of confidence, we can argue that the episode described earlier, as well as the previous eight “victories” of Hartmann 24 of August 1944, were false. wink
              2. +1
                13 July 2018 23: 01
                In the very ones in which he sat after the end of the war in captivity 11 years
                ,, During the war nobody knew him ,,,
        3. 0
          13 July 2018 23: 35
          ,, from an interview with Marshal Ivan Ivanovich Pstygo:
          - All this is a lie,
          I wonder how you imagine the story of the Soviet marshal about the heroism and skill of German pilots in the USSR, such as Hans Rudel, who was shot down by anti-aircraft fire about thirty times (and never by fighters), was wounded five times, two of them were severely, but continued make sorties after amputation of the right leg, saved six crews who made an emergency landing on enemy territory, and at the end of the war became the only German army soldier to receive the highest and specially established award of his country for courage, Golden Oak Leaves with Swords and Diamonds to the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. " request
      3. +1
        13 July 2018 16: 44
        Quote: Warrior2015
        Just for reference - not a single normal ace in the Luftwaffe just did not go into head-on attacks in principle.

        During the war, the Germans appeared normal fighter with powerful weapons and an air-cooled engine with armored impellers. On it, it’s kind of like they went to the frontal and stormed. On the frontal side, he killed our fighters from a cannon even before the distance was reduced to a dangerous level, while he himself did not suffer any losses.
        Quote: Warrior2015
        Most of the truly German "experts" (that is, not just aces who shot down 5-7-10 cars, but gained more than 40-60 victories in the air) did NOT RECOGNIZE the air carousel as such! Lightning attack from above or from below, blow - and lightning-fast leaving.

        Loafers. Give them all the free hunt when you can safely intercept random planes and row award-winning halves with glory packs. Moreover, their fighters should be much better in terms of performance characteristics than the enemy. Of course, where is the merry-go-round. This is a way to survive for losers on weak machines and simple hard workers, who, in contrast to them, did real work, went to attack without cover or tried to cover the bombers, despite the qualitative and quantitative lag behind the Germans.
        1. +1
          13 July 2018 19: 00
          Quote: brn521
          During the war, the Germans appeared normal fighter with powerful weapons and an air-cooled engine with armored impellers. On it, it’s kind of like they went to the frontal and stormed. In the frontal, he killed our fighters from a cannon even before the distance was reduced to a dangerous level,

          Are you talking about Fw-190 or something? "Shrike" \ "Würger" - a "killer bird"? Well, the rumors about his invulnerability are exaggerated, but it was mainly demanded by the Western Front and assault units (after he refused the “pieces” and other junk), not so many of them got to the Soviet-German front.

          Quote: brn521
          Give them all the free hunt when you can safely intercept random planes and row award-winning halves with glory packs.

          Loafers? Well look at the battles of the same Marseille against the British. Exactly the same scheme. And he did not avoid air combat, but was looking for him! BUT did not get involved in the carousel, but fought on the verticals, and even could easily break the defensive circle (even from fighters!).
          1. 0
            13 July 2018 23: 55
            You can add more !!! This tactic was eventually adopted by the Red Army Air Force !!! The same Pokryshkin with his famous Height, Speed, Maneuver, Fire! Ie completely adopted the tactics of the Luftwaffe
  8. +2
    13 July 2018 10: 05
    But I remember from whom I read, either from Pokryshkin, or from Kozhedub (probably after all from Pokryshkin) that there wasn’t much mind to shoot all the cartridges and shells and then ditch your own plane, albeit with an enemy shot down. 1: 1 is not a victory, this is stupidity. So, propaganda made the hero of Kovzan, and the opinion of fellow pilots about him was low.
    1. +2
      13 July 2018 10: 15
      Still, you speak too categorically. In 1941 you didn’t know how to fight, there was no other way, and propaganda of the air ram was necessary, it was necessary to raise morale. By 1943 there was no need for rams, as well as for their propaganda itself. The pilot, of course, was a hero.
      1. +2
        13 July 2018 10: 24
        There is such a concept as professionalism. Shoot down 59 (officially confirmed) enemy aircraft - professionalism, skill.
        At the same time, knock down 4 enemy aircraft to disable three of their own and destroy one of their own - courage, but not skill. Nobody denies courage in Kovzun. Here with skill he is in trouble ..
      2. +4
        13 July 2018 11: 50
        They knew how to fight and not bad, another thing is that most of the rams in the 41 were carried out on the MiG-3, while I personally see one explanation for this - a high-speed aircraft with low-power weapons - the 2 of a ShKAS rifle machine gun and one UBS-12,7.
        Retreat - A small part of the vehicles had suspended gondolas with 12,7 mm machine guns, but during the war they were dismantled, the machine guns themselves were transferred to the factories. Armament was not enough. Aircraft with two ShVAK aircraft guns appeared only in the 1942-43 year and were released in a small series.
        By the way, Pokryshkin started the war on this plane, the future ace on the MiG shot down only 3 planes (there is a slight discrepancy here, some sources say 5, besides, not all the shot down were counted) and all the shot down were monoplanes - 109 Messerschmitt, Romanian PZL and spotter - "crutch", there was not a single twin-engine heavy plane (in some sources there is a Ju-88, but it was shot down by accident - RS-82). In addition, it was Pokryshkin who mentioned the weak armament of a fairly good plane. But the thing is that Pokryshkin was an ace from the start, he could, wanted and knew how to fly, but most ordinary pilots could fly and shoot at a cone, but as for hitting, and even hitting a car flying at speed... So they rammed, they didn't really have any options, the fighter's ammo boxes are not bottomless, they shot up the ammo and started poking with the propeller in excitement.
        The truth is somewhat confused by the pilots who did not fly on MiGs, but on the American P-40, for example, there were more rounds of ammunition. So remember Khlobystova and Terekhin, too, rammed, despite the fact that Khlobystov and a half wing flew home, the American P-40, although a capricious car, but it’s very strong.
        1. +1
          13 July 2018 12: 23
          Quote: Yakov Volgushev
          low-speed high-speed aircraft

          MiG-3, was fast only on a dive, it was very heavy, and in this parameter exceeded even the Messerschmitt
          The plane, like a fighter, was creepy (MiG-3), to put it this way - as it was all in practice, and to conduct an air battle on it, was of course a heroic affair, or go on ramming, unless of course they give such an opportunity.
          1. +2
            13 July 2018 13: 46
            Not only at a dive, at an altitude above 3000 meters, he even did Friedrich in all respects except for armament naturally, his engine is high-altitude, and this is the only fighter that could have caught any Messer of any model in a dive) The favorite piece of Luftwaffe experts to fall off and didn’t roll away in a dive with the MiG-3.
        2. +1
          13 July 2018 17: 26
          Quote: Yakov Volgushev
          Retreat - A small part of the machines had suspended gondolas with 12,7 mm machine guns, but during the war they were dismantled, the machine guns themselves were transferred to the factories. Armament was not enough.

          EMNIP, began dismantling before the war. The reason is the same - lack of Berezin machine guns. Fighter aircraft without armament accumulated at the aircraft factories, so they had to disarm the MiGs already transferred to the Air Force.
        3. 0
          13 July 2018 19: 04
          Quote: Yakov Volgushev
          By the way, Pokryshkin started the war on this plane, the future ace on the MiG shot down the entire 3 of the aircraft (there is a slight discrepancy, some sources speak of 5

          It's simple, they usually keep quiet about his first "victory" - a shot down Soviet Su-2, which he accidentally mistook for a German or Romanian or Hungarian due to his inexperience. According to other sources, he had two such "shot down by friendly fire"... But in general, Pokryshkin's service record is higher, he had problems with the command and many quite reliable victories were not initially listed as unproven.
          1. +3
            13 July 2018 19: 19
            Quote: Warrior2015
            Yes, everything is simple, usually they are silent about his first “victory” - the downed Soviet Su-2, which he accidentally mistook for German or Romanian or Hungarian because of inexperience.

            Moreover, the downed Su-2 was the aircraft of the squadron commander, in which another future air marshal, Pstigo, served. And he shot him down right in front of Pstygo - because of his ignorance of the silhouettes of his own cars.
            And the case was this. At the end of June, 41 in Moldova, two nines of our aircraft went to bomb the crossing. Pstygo led his staff link. Before the war in the Soviet Union, the planes were classified so that in the same division the fighters did not know the bombers, especially the Su-2, and the attack aircraft did not know the new MiGs and the Yaks. In the air, the navigator reported to the commander: "The fighters of the cover came, now let's go more fun!"
            “Then one MiG turned around and slammed into my squadron commander, Mikhail Ivanovich Gudzenko,” my interlocutor wound up. - Su-2 began to smoke and went down. In the MiG was Pokryshkin, then the captain. We bombed, returned. The regimental commander ordered me to fly to Po-2 to the crash site. The commander was alive, and the navigator had three bullets in the heart. They dug a grave, gave a salute from a pistol.

            Fire in its own in the early months of the war was a huge problem. On the account of our Air Force and Air Defense, for example, there was one shot down (No. 42045) and two damaged (No. 42025, 42035) Pe-8. Of the seven who left on target (in the first raid of these vehicles on Berlin). Who did they take them for?
          2. +1
            13 July 2018 22: 07
            By the way, Pokryshkin himself spoke about this “victory” in his book ... But, in principle, he is silent, yes ... How American planes shot down by Kozhedub are also silent. But there are special reasons for silence ..
    2. +2
      13 July 2018 10: 16
      In .. Now I also read Zimin
    3. +3
      13 July 2018 12: 53
      Quote: Alexey Sobolev
      But I remember from whom I read, either from Pokryshkin, or from Kozhedub (probably after all from Pokryshkin) that there wasn’t much mind to shoot all the cartridges and shells and then ditch your own plane, albeit with an enemy shot down. 1: 1 is not a victory, this is stupidity.

      These are just the consequences of propaganda that developed at one time: for a pilot, a sign of high morale is a willingness to go to ram, so he should always be ready for ram and possible death, instead of surrendering if things go very badly. For a soldier, the analogy is the willingness to go in a bayonet attack. But this character, either Pokryshkin or Kozhedub, apparently did not understand. And he decided that he was offered a battering ram as the main weapon. The disadvantage of Soviet propaganda was that the people who followed were making and pushing speeches.
      1. 0
        13 July 2018 22: 05
        Morale and skill are not synonyms. Although they should and most often go hand in hand.
    4. 0
      13 July 2018 15: 23
      Quote: Alexey Sobolev
      1: 1 is not a victory, this is stupidity.


      How to say. If we lost one of our German aircraft, it would be nice
    5. +3
      13 July 2018 20: 27
      Quote: Alexey Sobolev
      1: 1 is not a victory, this is stupidity.

      Stupidity - this is when the hero of the war is judged by "aces of the Wartanders."
      1. 0
        13 July 2018 22: 06
        ..I’m also in the “Gun, helmet and two wings I play” ... yeah ..
        1. 0
          13 July 2018 23: 44
          Quote: Alexey Sobolev
          .I am also in

          Sometimes ...
  9. +8
    13 July 2018 10: 29
    The land of Russia is full of heroes !!! Glory and Eternal Memory to them !!!
  10. +1
    13 July 2018 12: 11
    The rude man !!!!!
  11. +5
    13 July 2018 12: 12
    Quote: Curious
    With all due respect to the author of the article, I trust the air marshal more, since he and Kovzan are colleagues from the 42nd Fighter Aviation Regiment, in which Kovzan carried out the first three rammings.
    On June 22, 1941, it was part of the 57th mixed aviation division, and was stationed at airfields in Vilnius, Orany, and Perloy. It was armed with 101 I-153, I-15 bis (including 8 faulty) aircraft and 59 combat-ready pilots.
    The regiment lost its equipment so quickly that its presence at the front was not even recorded.
    Since July 1941, it was re-formed in the rear, in Orel, relearning to MiG-3 in the amount of 32 pilots. The selection of pilots for the regiment was carried out by V. I. Stalin.
    Since August 16, 1941 he has been on combat duty as part of air defense, covering Bryansk, Oryol, Kursk, Tula on airplanes MiG-3.

    The indicated regiment did not fly on Yak 1 aircraft. This fact is verified by archival documents.
    However, in various biographies of Kovzan, aircraft such as the MiG-3, Yak-1, and even La-5 appear.
    Thus, on the website "Heroes of the Country" it is indicated that Kovzan performed his first three ramming attacks on a MiG-3, and the fourth on a La-5, although the 744th Fighter Aviation Regiment, where Kovzan served at that time, flew a Yak-1.
    Therefore, neither OBS nor sclerosis is involved. The author was repeatedly advised to more carefully study the topic and not be shy at the end of the article to briefly list the sources that he used. The beauty and attractiveness of the article will not be lost from this, they will not diminish the significance of exploits, but they will add informational content and objectivity.


    Not only that, comrade not only lazhanul with Yak-1, he also put a photo-Yak-3 laughing . The article will hang around on the Internet for who knows how long, and of course the next generation of spades waistcoats, who have never even held a book in their hands, will be tearing each other's shirts off their chests, on the topic of how many Messerschmitts Kovzan rammed in 1941-1942 in our indestructible "wunderfighter" Yak-3 good
    1. +6
      13 July 2018 12: 31
      The problem is that the author does not see this as a problem, sorry for the tautology. I, they say, describe the feat, and not what it is perfect on. Though riding a stool. And since it’s far from aviation, having opened Google, he slapped the first photo that came across. I did not focus on this anymore.

      Above Yak1, below Yak-3.
      1. +6
        13 July 2018 13: 15
        In fairness, it should be said that the Yak-1 was built in Saratov for quite a long time, I can't give you the exact dates of takeoff, but in my opinion, until the beginning, or even the middle of '44, it was called the Yak-1B and was on the conveyor in parallel with the Yak-3, which was being launched into production. Accordingly, work on the Yak-3 had an impact on the last series of the Yak-1. Low fairing, smooth tail skin, external radio antenna on all aircraft produced, retractable landing gear, etc. But there are still visual differences: in the span and area of ​​the wing, for example. And on the side projection - the oil cooler in the nose ("beard") remained until the very last series.

        By the way, this "anecdote" continues to live and win... The other day, one of the Russian channels showed a series about fighters. With Dmitry Dyuzhev in the leading role. According to the legend of the script, already at the end of the war (the heroes meet a lone Me-262 hunter supposedly undergoing military tests) his regiment is reformed and receives a Yak-3 just in Saratov. But in the location filming on the ground and in the flying models in the air, they again use a Yak-1B! I won't be surprised if it turns out that the film crew simply rented the props left over from some other Russian "movie about pilots" feel
        1. +2
          13 July 2018 14: 26
          Before the beginning of the 1944 year, the Yak-1B was stamped, then the Yak-3 went to the series, although the legs of the Yak-1 also grow))) Only with the letter "M"
        2. +1
          13 July 2018 15: 25
          Quote: Oleg Tolstoy
          But there are still visual differences: In the scope and area of ​​the wing, for example .. And on the side projection - the oil cooler in the nose ("beard") remained until the very last series ..


          On the Yak-3 there was no frontal bulletproof glass. Probably the most striking difference
  12. +4
    13 July 2018 12: 37
    Quote: Alexey Sobolev
    There is such a concept as professionalism. Shoot down 59 (officially confirmed) enemy aircraft - professionalism, skill.
    At the same time, knock down 4 enemy aircraft to disable three of their own and destroy one of their own - courage, but not skill. Nobody denies courage in Kovzun. Here with skill he is in trouble ..


    In that situation, the knocked out materiel, the enemy's air superiority, the lack of our aircraft operating in the visual range of ground troops, the moral decline caused by the daily death of comrades who did not return from battle and the constant retreat, some means of raising the spirit and ways to reduce the effectiveness of the German aviation were needed. Ramming. More precisely, its threat, makes the enemy nervous, break formation, make mistakes in aimed bombing. No matter what anyone says, ramming was taught then. You can't get killed in 4 rams, you have to be able to! Was it in vain that a little later, when the forces were slightly equalized, the Fritzes dumped bombs even on the battle formations or the defense line of their own troops, as soon as they came under the pressure of a good fighter screen! Bitches knew from somewhere what happened to the same as them a little earlier...
    1. 0
      13 July 2018 22: 10
      But only his colleagues didn’t condemn him, but they were critical ..
  13. 0
    13 July 2018 12: 40
    And no one noticed that in the obviously post-war photo of Kovzan, if it is he, with two eyes?
    1. +4
      13 July 2018 12: 52
      If there is no damage to the orbit, and only the eyeball is removed, then a well-made prosthesis is completely invisible, especially in a professional photo.
      1. 0
        13 July 2018 19: 30
        Do not la la. A person with an eye prosthesis is immediately visible.
        1. +1
          13 July 2018 20: 52
          When la la - it is you who will contact your grandmother. About such a thing as retouching?
    2. 0
      13 July 2018 16: 54
      In principle, yes, for propaganda purposes, he should have been photographed with one-eyed. Given the attached story, this would be better than many orders.
      1. 0
        13 July 2018 18: 10
        If there is no damage to the orbit

        Especially considering that the Bf.109G was armed only with heavy machine guns and automatic guns. Although maybe he was lucky and at 42 got an old Emil or Frederick with a rifle caliber. But anyway, some kind of MacLeod turns out.
        1. 0
          13 July 2018 19: 08
          Quote: MooH
          Although maybe he was lucky and in 42 got an old Emil or Frederick with a rifle caliber.

          Well, actually, there were a lot of these series in 42. And maybe the hero’s eye was lost during an attack on a formation of bombers or dive-bombers? there defensive stood rifle caliber!
          1. 0
            14 July 2018 00: 03
            When it hits the lantern, but otherwise it’s very difficult for the pilot to get into the head, it is not necessary to get into the eye of a bullet. There will be enough fragments of a lantern for all eyes, there will still be extra ones. So what kind of weapons flew in is not important. Although, of course, if the RP detonates with one eye, one can’t get off.
            1. 0
              14 July 2018 03: 48
              Rusticolus
              the bullet knocked out his eye
              1. 0
                14 July 2018 10: 22
                This is from the words of a journalist. Again nearby:
                although the damaged right eye needed to be removed.

                What kind of bullet was it that only damaged the eye? Given that the rifle calibers of the Germans were from 7,92 to 13 mm, and were used from a distance of 200-300 meters from a force. Yes, here the floor of the head would have been demolished, if it had hit. Not well, of course, I admit that somehow like that I casually struck something else without hitting it. But the probability is too small. But fragments of any were enough, especially given the cramped cabin. So most likely it was about a bullet for a red word, a flashlight yes, but it hardly hit my head.
                Again, judging by the photo, the eye was not knocked out there, there was a serious cut that hurt the eye.
          2. 0
            14 July 2018 03: 43
            Warrior2015
            The author calls the opponents of Kovzan Me-109. Which is somewhat strange for 1942.
        2. +1
          13 July 2018 21: 36
          Quote: MooH
          If there is no damage to the orbit

          Especially considering that the Bf.109G was armed only with heavy machine guns and automatic guns. Although maybe he was lucky and at 42 got an old Emil or Frederick with a rifle caliber. But anyway, some kind of MacLeod turns out.

          Read the composition of the weapons of the Bf-109G and its modifications, and then comment.
          1. 0
            14 July 2018 03: 40
            Read it yourself, then give directions to strangers.
  14. The comment was deleted.
  15. +1
    13 July 2018 12: 48
    What is a respected author does not participate in discussions today what winked
  16. +3
    13 July 2018 12: 52
    Thanks to the author for the article, but illustrations for the material should be selected more carefully. A lot of mistakes in them.
  17. 0
    13 July 2018 13: 22
    Tribute to the heroes! None of us knows how he would have acted in a situation similar to the current one!: God forbid it happens again
  18. +2
    13 July 2018 14: 22
    About his first ram committed by 29 on October 1941 of the year ,,, The German intelligence officer entered at the peak exploded on the ground, and the Soviet pilot returned to the airfield, reporting to the command about the results of the sortie.
    ,,, how can this be if 26.04.1942g. he was reported missing feel
    1. +1
      13 July 2018 15: 58
      This is the same case when the Legend lives on itself already on its own, regardless of its hero laughing Was Vasily Terkin, on the ground, and here, Borya Kovzan! lol By the way, how do you translate his last name into Russian? Is it The Little Humpbacked Horse? good

      There was still a legend about him, I read in one book with fables about the Stalin era ..

      Allegedly someone, was it not Joseph Vissarionitch himself who told Boris after the war:
      - You are a Hero of the Soviet Union, an order bearer, it’s time for you to study, you must enter the Academy.
      “So I have only 4 classes, Comrade Stalin !?”
      - It's okay, go and apply, and I'll give you a recommendation... I gave it to you.
      Boris Kovzan did not pass a single entrance exam and was successfully accepted! laughing
      1. +1
        13 July 2018 23: 52
        Quote: Oleg Tolstoy
        This is the same case when the Legend lives on itself already on its own, regardless of its hero

        There was definitely a case like in 1990 on the day of the border guard the boys in the park almost got into a fight proving that each of them served with Karatsupa belay lol
  19. +2
    13 July 2018 17: 05
    Quote: bubalik
    ,,, how can this be if 26.04.1942g. he was reported missing

    Some of them were reported as missing until the 43rd year. Until the 42nd year, they were more worried about how the archives could either be taken out or destroyed in time, than about inspections and timely replenishment.
  20. +1
    13 July 2018 19: 26
    In fact, without the humiliation of the Hero, but still, but he knew how to shoot in the air, no ??? Both Pokryshkin and Kozhedub (our Best Ases) knew how to shoot. The Japanese from Kato to Saburo Sakai didn’t anoint and kill the enemy (and the Yaps had airborne weapons, like us sinners, the whole war was not the most powerful) well from Mölders to the notorious Hartman-Bubi, it’s generally a song (the last one according to his memoirs of a cane) altogether fell ours (a female dog) from one volley of his “Black Tulip.” And ours, from Talalikhin to Kovzan, had to cut, with a risk to his life adversaries screw or plane ... paradox however or ... no ?? !!
    1. +2
      14 July 2018 00: 14
      Not a paradox. Such a sniper as Pokryshkin still needs to be born. Why can no one suggest that Kovzan was simply out of luck with this? Well, he did not get. This does not mean at all that he certainly did not know how to pilot filigree. The fourth is a battering ram, a separate story. But the first three are far from an accident already. Maybe the guy was not very sure about the weapons? This happens when it doesn’t work. And as he gets closer, he thought that the plumage cut for him is easier and for sure. He did not bluntly hit the plane with the plane, but gently sheared with a screw with minimal damage to himself.
      1. 0
        14 July 2018 00: 56
        Quote: Rusticolus
        Not a paradox. Such a sniper as Pokryshkin still needs to be born. Why can no one suggest that Kovzan was simply out of luck with this? Well, he did not get. This does not mean at all that he certainly did not know how to pilot filigree.

        It's not just a matter of whether a person has an aerial sniper's eye or not (the Germans also had such people rare, and they themselves admitted it; those of their aces who missed were simply master pilots, flying closer to the target and shooting almost point-blank (Walter Krupinski with his 197 victories described his battles). The fact is that combat training - both in maneuvering and in shooting - in the Red Army Air Force, especially in the first half of the war, was, to our great regret, slightly higher than zero.

        And the air riflemen, who were later planted on IL-2 and bombers, were generally sent to shooting schools in shooting schools instead of training in marksmanship ...

        The Germans also reduced the training program for pilots only in the spring of the 1944 of the year ... That's the whole difference, by and large ...
  21. +3
    13 July 2018 21: 34
    Quote: vvvjak
    Hartman's flight log (with notes for most of his victories) was taken away by the Russians when he was captured, from whom he later escaped (according to his own memoirs)

    Isn't the flight book kept at the headquarters of the aviation regiment? This is not a driver’s license to carry with them everywhere.
  22. 0
    14 July 2018 19: 25
    Quote: Warrior2015
    Some kind of extremely misconception about aerial combat (I think, probably based on a number of Soviet memoirs,

    You yourself participated or developed schemes and tactics of air combat in 1941-42. or are you content with simulator games with PERFECT performance characteristics of aircraft?
    Quote: Warrior2015
    Just for reference - not a single normal ace in the Luftwaffe just did not go into head-on attacks in principle.

    Is it they (German Assy) to YOU ​​YOURSELF and IMMEDIATELY after the Second World War or their descendants in 50-75 years?
    1. 0
      15 July 2018 10: 11
      Quote: Sergei Pavlovich
      You yourself participated or developed schemes and tactics of aerial combat in 1941-42. or be content with games on simulations

      No, I have a very indirect relationship with flight simulators; I simply read combat recommendations from both sides + memoirs from both sides, and everything clearly shows the fundamental difference in tactics, and the superiority of air combat tactics among the "Lufts" (which almost only Pokryshkin not only noticed, but adopted, mastered and in every way promoted!).
      1. 0
        18 July 2018 19: 25
        to Ratnik 2015 (Michael)
        You have NOT carefully read MY comment
        In your lines, you are MAINLY BASED on the memoirs of the conquered and they are written when?
        1945-46?
        And in what country? Who paid for writing and publishing?
        1. 0
          19 July 2018 08: 42
          Quote: Sergei Pavlovich
          In your lines, you are MAINLY BASED on the memoirs of the conquered and they are written when?
          1945-46? And in what country? Who paid for writing and publishing?

          When analyzing the tactics of one of the parties to a conflict, it is better to turn to primary sources (not only memoirs, but also combat manuals, tactical regulations, etc.) than to rely simply on the memoirs of the victors, which often had a very indirect relationship to the realities of the combat situation.
          1. 0
            19 July 2018 21: 05
            You AGAIN "cling" to your initial LACK of objectivity and obvious irascibility - this is the ONLY way I can explain the lack of your answers to the specific questions I previously asked wink
  23. 0
    14 July 2018 19: 42
    Quote: Rusticolus
    Given that the rifle calibers of the Germans were from 7,92 to 13 mm, and were used from a distance of 200-300 meters from a force. Yes, here the floor of the head would have been demolished, if it had hit.

    the caliber is certainly serious - BUT you somehow forgot the DUAL approach speed (it turns out at 1000 m / s) + bullet rotation. I’m not going to feed you certificates from “Field Surgery” here, but during the Second World War there were cases when a bullet that got into the MIDDLE of the forehead came out of the back of the head and the wounded man was alive.
    Yes, remember M.I. Kutuzov, who, at MUCH lower speeds, TWICE was wounded in the temple and didn’t even lose his eyes.
  24. 0
    19 July 2018 20: 47
    http://imf.forum24.ru/?1-28-0-00000003-000-0-0-14
    64590892