Prokhorov tragedy of Soviet tankers

269
The significant date is July 12, 1943. 75 years ago, one of the largest tank battles of the Great Patriotic War: on the southern face of the Kursk Bulge, near Prokhorovka. In Soviet military historiography, this episode was presented as the victory of Soviet tankers in a head-on battle with the Germans, in which up to 1500 tanks participated from both sides.

Prokhorov tragedy of Soviet tankers




Studies of archival documents conducted by historians have shown that this is far from the case. Many facts and blunders of the highest military command were simply hidden and presented in a distorted light. An attempt to objectively investigate this issue on the basis of archival Soviet and German documents, as well as the memories of the participants in this confrontation, was made by the historian Valery Zamulin in his book “Prokhorov’s Battle”.

Using the materials of this book, I would like to briefly recall the tragic pages of those days of the war, when thousands of Soviet tankers paid for their lives with ambitions or poor management of the troops. The places of these battles are symbolic for me, I was born on the Kursk Bulge in the post-war period, and my childhood toys were mines and shells that we collected on the outskirts of the city.

It was already the middle of 50's, and for some reason nobody cleared up these “toys”, there were too many of them in these places. Then they quickly disappeared, but the memories of them firmly crashed into the memory. In 43, the Germans rushed towards the city where the headquarters of the Voronezh Front was located. Under Yakovlevo, the 1-I tank army of Katukov stopped the Germans, they were forced to turn in the direction of Prokhorovka.

Having penetrated 30-35 km into the Soviet defenses and breaking through two defensive lines, the Germans approached Prokhorovka and were ready to break through the third defensive line and reach the operational area to reach Kursk from the east ..

From Stavka this direction was supervised by the Chief of General Staff Vasilevsky. He addressed Stalin with a proposal to reinforce the Voronezh Front with the 5 Guards Tank Army under the command of Rotmistrov and the 5 Guards Army under the command of Zhadov, transferring them from the backup Steppe Front.

This offer was accepted. Rotmistrov's tank crews, having successfully completed the 230-kilometer march, were concentrated in the Prokhorovka area by July 9. The two armies, along with the other units, made up an almost 100-thousandth group. The tank army of Rotmistrov had a 931 tank, including 581 T-34 (62,4%) and 314 T-70 (33,7%). The presence of a large number of light tanks T-70 significantly reduced the combat capability of the army.

On the German side, under Prokhorovka, they were opposed by two German tank corps, which included three selected SS tank divisions Leibstandart, Das Reich and Dead Head. The Germans had a 294 tank, including the 38 Tiger and even the 8 captured T-34. These forces encountered 12 July in a tank battle, the ratio in the tanks was 3: 1 in our favor.

After analyzing the current situation, Vasilevsky and the commander of the Voronezh Front, Vatutin, on 9 July, decided to launch the main counterstrike under Prokhorovka with the forces of the tank army Rotmistrov and two auxiliary on the left and right flanks. It was planned to defeat the German group and drop it to the positions at the beginning of the offensive.

It was planned to deploy the tank army into battle formations to the south and south-west of Prokhorovka, where the terrain made it possible to concentrate such a mass of tanks and, in the process of a counterattack, enter operational space in the direction of Yakovlevo. At the time of the decision on the counter attack, the German groups were at a distance of approximately 15 kilometers from Prokhorovka, and this decision was justified.

In the next two days, before the counter attack, the operational situation changed dramatically not in favor of the plans of the Soviet command. The terrain in the Prokhorovka area was characterized by the presence of deep ravines with side spurs, a marshy floodplain of the Psel river, a steep railway embankment, a grader road to Prokhorovka, and a previously dug anti-tank moat.

All of this, the Germans successfully took advantage of and 10-11 July conducted a series of tactical offensive operations, significantly improving their operational situation and jeopardizing the plans of the Soviet command to apply a counterattack.

The Prokhorov battle began on July 10 with the offensive of the Leibstnadart SS Panzer Division on a tactically important sector of the front in the area of ​​the Ivanovsky Settlement village. It was the intersection of the grader road to Prokhorovka and the roads to Belenikhino and Sentry, here was the bend of the railway. The rapid seizure of this node allowed, to hide behind a railway embankment and a forest belt, to organize an attack on Prokhorovka.

The Germans organized this operation very well. At night, the sappers made passages in the minefields, at dawn, the sabotage group penetrated our stronghold, destroyed communication lines, damaged part of the equipment, captured the sleeping commander and returned to their positions. In the morning the German offensive began, the battalion did not open fire, seeing that the Germans were attacking mines. They did not know that the mines were no longer there, the tanks rapidly broke into a stronghold and completely destroyed it.

Developing success, the Germans immediately marched on Ivanovo Vyselok, part of the bridgehead south of Prokhorovka, from which Rotmistrov's tank army was to turn, the intersection of grader roads and cut the railway. This was the first tactical success of the Germans in the Prokhorovka battle, which allowed them to advance on 3-3,5 km and dramatically complicated the application of our tank counter-attack.

The breakthrough and advance of the Germans to Prokhorovka managed to stop and not allow them to break through the third defensive line, but attempts to restore the former position on a tactically important sector of the front, including using significant tank forces, did not lead to anything until the end of the day. After suffering heavy losses, the Soviet troops switched to defense.

On the night of July 10, defense was quickly organized in new positions. The Soviet command failed to organize a solid and solid line of defense, and the Germans did not fail to take advantage of it the next day.

For the Soviet command, it was extremely important not to allow the seizure of the Oktyabrsky state farm and the consolidation of the Germans in the vicinity of the 252.2 height, which is a key defense node in front of Prokhorovka. The seizure of this height threatened the collapse of the defense on this sector of the front and facilitated the advance of the Germans to the east. Understanding the importance of this knot of defense, the Germans launched an offensive precisely here.

Having obtained a tactical advantage with access to the railroad, the Germans took the second step - they organized an attack on this height early in the morning of July 11. Hiding behind the railroad and the forest belt, the Germans along the grader road Yakovlevo - Prokhorovka took the height by considerable forces of infantry and tanks. On the move they overcame a single tank-passable area approximately 1 km in width from the anti-tank ditch to the railway and rushed deep into our defense.

Going deeper into 8 km, the Germans reached the southern outskirts of Prokhorovka and completely captured the springboard for the deployment of Rotmistrov tank corps. The counterattacks only managed to prevent the expansion of the breakthrough, push the enemy out of the vicinity of Prokhorovka and prevent its surrender. Restore the position and regain lost positions failed. By the end of the day, a “narrow throat” hit the depths of the Soviet defense, the point of which rested against Prokhorovka, and the Germans began to strengthen it strenuously.

A few hours before the counterstrike, the Soviet command was faced with a dilemma of what to do next. For the counterstrike, a powerful armored fist was assembled and waited for the command, but the foothold from which the strike was supposed to start was captured by the enemy, there was no other suitable on this sector of the front.

It was very dangerous to start the operation in the current conditions and deploy the tank corps in front of the enemy’s front edge, the probability of the destruction of tanks that did not have time to turn into battle formations was too high.

Despite the complication of the situation, Vasilevsky and Vatutin decided to put on a counterstrike after all. The decision to reinforce the front grouping by the two armies and to deliver a counterattack on the advancing enemy forces was made on the proposal of Vasilevsky. After failures to curb the offensive of the enemy, he apparently did not dare to go to the Bet with a proposal to cancel the already planned operation.

The tank army had to solve two tasks, crack the defenses of the enemy and destroy its strike force. That is, the tank army was not thrown into the breakthrough, but to break through the enemy defenses. Rotmistrov decided to crush the enemy with a massive tank strike on a narrow sector, deciding to throw four tank brigades and a self-propelled gun regiment there with a small interval.

The preparation of the counterattack was carried out in a short time, for two days it was impossible to qualitatively prepare such a complex operation and not everything was taken into account and worked through. Moreover, the enemy has seriously complicated the task, capturing the springboard that was scheduled for deployment.

The counter-strike was inflicted by three tank corps, which had 538 tanks in service. In the first echelon there should have been 368 tanks of two tank corps, while in one there was 35,5%, and in the other 38,8% of light T-70 tanks. This tank with light armor and weak weaponry was not able to fight on equal terms with any of the German tanks. Tankers should have attacked in a narrow lane between the river Psel and the railway, and when confronted with an enemy, this inevitably should have led to the mixing of the battle formations of the corps, which is what happened.

It was impossible to create a single strike fist of two buildings on a narrow section. Moreover, at the end of this “corridor” there was a natural obstacle - a deep ravine, which narrowed the line of attack on 2 km. Immediately after its passage, the combat vehicles came under fire from the enemy, which was located in 300 – 500 from the ravine. In order to turn around in order of battle or pick up speed for a breakthrough, there was no place even for one tank brigade, not to mention the whole corps.

At night, before the counterstrike, the Germans broke through in the direction of Korocha;

Before the attack of the tanks, the infantry tried to knock out the Germans and widen the narrow throat in front of the 252.2 height for the passage of tanks, but all attempts were unsuccessful. The Germans, having captured the bridgehead, for the night seriously strengthened it with anti-tank weapons and were well prepared for the attacks of the Soviet tankmen. The high saturation with the fire weapons of the German line of defense and the skillful organization of the fire resistance system were one of the main reasons for the defeat of the Soviet tank corps.

The tankers of Rotmistrov in the morning of July 12 had to go head-on to the line of defense of the Germans saturated with tanks, artillery, assault guns, tank destroyers and heavy mortars. A total of 6,5 km in this area was concentrated to 305 guns and mortars of all types. With such a murderous defense tank corps, sandwiched on both sides of the river and the railway, went on the attack, dooming themselves to inevitable defeat.

The Soviet command did not know the operational situation that had developed at night before the counterstrike, as well as how the enemy entrenched itself on the achieved lines. The extensive reconnaissance was not conducted and the command did not have a detailed picture of the state of the enemy before the front of the tank army at the time of the start of the strike.

The ending should ...
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  1. +35
    12 July 2018 05: 56
     Eternal memory to all who died for their homeland! 
    1. +57
      12 July 2018 06: 51
      On the morning of April 12, Rotmistrov’s tankers were supposed to go head-on to the German defense line, full of tanks, artillery, assault guns, tank destroyers and heavy mortars. In total, up to 6,5 guns and mortars of all types were concentrated on this 305 km long section

      One barrel at 20 meters wide in defense -CHEAT and TIN !!! Just trembling over the body ...
      And now they want to steal the VICTORY obtained at such a price by our grandfathers from the former Union and Russia?
      Make Europe a day that rented cities after 1-2 days of defense ?!
      Quote: polpot
       Eternal memory to all who died for their homeland! 
      1. +12
        12 July 2018 12: 36
        Quote: Starover_Z
        And now they want to steal the VICTORY obtained at such a price by our grandfathers from the former Union and Russia?

        The incompetence of the generals is compensated by the mass heroism of ordinary soldiers - this is the Law. The great domestic direct proof of the limit of the mediocrity of the Stalin regime, which only by a miracle did not lead to the destruction of the peoples of the USSR. And the fact that for the next 70 years there were no critical views on these events led in many respects to the sad consequences of subsequent wars with the participation of the USSR in most local conflicts.
        1. +54
          12 July 2018 13: 41
          And the cards in the text, no links))) Here she is, really, mother, what, believe in the word.
          1. MPN
            +6
            12 July 2018 19: 54
            Egor hi And there are maps and links .. Google steers, but what you can’t take away is my grandfather died there and you won’t return WHO is to blame, well, it’s not important anymore, you can’t explain it to my grandfather, and there’s nothing to it ...
          2. +2
            13 July 2018 00: 42
            Read Zamulin’s books, there you will find maps and links, and all of them were taken from different sources.
            1. +3
              13 July 2018 17: 42
              And you read the memoirs of the Marshal of the Soviet Union G. Zhukov
              1. +5
                14 July 2018 00: 07
                Quote: evgeny68
                And you read the memoirs of the Marshal of the Soviet Union G. Zhukov

                I read, for some reason there is nothing about the "Rzhevskaya meat grinder", but there are memories of the Marshal about the brave Colonel Brezhnev. And how to believe this?
                1. +6
                  15 July 2018 07: 34
                  I will answer you this way, about the genocide of the indigenous population of North America, the Indians, there is nothing in the US history books. Although these numbers fluctuate, according to various estimates of American scientists, from 10 to 100 million people. And how to believe it?
                  1. +1
                    15 July 2018 11: 08
                    Quote: evgeny68
                    nothing in US history books

                    What American textbooks did you watch? Were they definitely in history?
                    Quote: evgeny68
                    these figures range, according to various estimates of American scientists, from 10 to 100 million people.

                    Why not a billion? What kind of scientists are published? Really in Russian Learn?
                    Quote: evgeny68
                    And how to believe it?

                    But it’s not necessary. It is necessary to believe the tsarist / Soviet "historians", for whom Ermak, for example, was considered a "pioneer", a kind of Amundsen, and not Cortes even once.
                    1. 0
                      28 August 2018 18: 18
                      Cherry Nine (1) July 15, 2018 11:08
                      "these numbers fluctuate, according to various estimates of American scientists, from 10 to 100 million people."

                      Why not a billion? What kind of scientists are published?
                      ====
                      in your (if checked) wikipedia numbers go to millions
          3. +26
            13 July 2018 10: 03
            I agree. Small episodes, such as the capture of the “opornik”, are mixed with the transfer and strikes of entire buildings. If the Germans were so good, what did they blow? I understand that everything is not simple there, BUT, on the Kursk Bulge, the last German strike force capable of attacking was destroyed. After that, they only retreated. No wonder it was called a "fracture." And it’s pointless to compare the tactics of using tanks with us and the Germans. The operational environment and personal skills of the crews were very important. The Germans clearly had better crews to the Kursk Bulge in general. After - no. The color of the tank troops of the Wehrmacht was increased there.
          4. +3
            13 July 2018 18: 13
            Our generals studied under the Renaissance Italians and the degeneration Poles, the Swedes Charles 12 and the Germans Frederick the Great, Napoleon and Clausewitz - that is, from the experience of all those armies that were defeated by our own. But from our own - how was it to learn? In the military sense, there can simply be no disputes: the Russian army was the most victorious army of all world history, including Ancient Rome in this history. So, perhaps, Russian military thought should be built on the basis of its experience, and not the experience of Koleloni, Sobessky, Karlov, Friedrich and others. Not on the experience of those who somehow and sometime won some of the first battles, but on the experience of our army, which sometimes lost the first battles, but so far has not lost a single last one. I. Solonevich: People's Monarchy:
            1. +2
              20 August 2018 20: 56
              Quote: evgeny68
              In the military sense, there can simply be no disputes: the Russian army was the most victorious army of all world history, including Ancient Rome in this history


              Well, with Rome, you went a little over ..
        2. +43
          12 July 2018 13: 50
          The decision to strengthen the front grouping by two armies and counter-attack the advancing enemy troops was made at the suggestion of Vasilevsky. After failing to deter the enemy’s advance, he apparently did not dare to go to Headquarters with a proposal to cancel the already planned operation.
          The tank army had to solve two problems, break the enemy’s defenses and destroy its attack group. That is, the tank army was not thrown into a breakthrough, but to break through the enemy’s defense. - from article

          In Soviet instructions, it was the other way around - tanks do not fight tanks!
          Order No. 325 -
          “I order in the combat use of tank and mechanized units and formations to be guided by the following instructions.
          1. Separate tank regiments and brigades are intended to strengthen infantry in the main direction and act in close cooperation with it as tanks for direct support of infantry.
          2. TAnki, acting together with the infantry, have as their main task the destruction of enemy infantry and should not be separated from their infantry by more than 200-400 m.
          In battle, a tank commander organizes observation of the battle formations of his infantry. If the infantry lies down and does not advance behind the tanks, the commander of the tank unit allocates part of the tanks to destroy the firing points that impede the advance of our infantry.
          3. The infantry to ensure the operation of the tanks must suppress the enemy’s anti-tank weapons with all the power of their fire, as well as with the fire of the escort guns, scout and clear minefields, help tanks overcome anti-tank obstacles and wetlands, fight German tank destroyers, decisively follow the tanks into attack, quickly fix the lines captured by them, cover the delivery of ammunition and fuel to the tanks and facilitate the evacuation of emergency tanks from the battlefield.
          4. Artillery before the tanks go on the attack should destroy the enemy’s anti-tank defenses. During the attack of the leading edge and the battle in the depths of the enemy’s defense, suppress fire means that impede the advancement of tanks why artillery commanders are obliged to direct artillery fire from advanced mobile observation posts from radium tanks. Artillery and tank commanders jointly set the call and ceasefire signals of artillery.
          5. When enemy tanks appear on the battlefield, the main battle with them is artillery. Tanks engage in battle with enemy tanks only in the event of a clear superiority of forces and advantageous position.
          6. Our aviation, by its actions, shoots the enemy’s anti-tank defenses, prohibits the approach to the battlefield of its tanks, covers the battle formations of tank units from the influence of enemy aircraft, and ensures the fighting of tank units with constant and continuous air reconnaissance.
          7. Tank crews carry out the attack at maximum speeds, suppress the enemy’s guns, mortars, machine guns and infantry with intense fire from the move and skillfully maneuver on the battlefield using terrain folds to reach enemy flanks and rear enemy flanks and rear. Do not conduct frontal attacks with tanks. ... comment hohol95 (Alexey) from the article "Tanks of the Blitzkrieg era" (part 2)

          The great domestic direct proof of the limit of the mediocrity of the Stalin regime, which only by a miracle did not lead to the destruction of the peoples of the USSR. - scientist

          And here is the "Stalinist regime"? It was thanks to the "Stalinist regime" that the USSR restrained the onslaught of all of fascist Europe, led by Germany, and defeated them, defeating them in Berlin!
          Mediocre generals, or cowardly for their careers, are in all the armies of the world, and the USSR is no exception to this. The proof of this, just can serve as an example of the Prokhorov battle. The Germans tried to hit Katukov’s tank army, but he turned to I.V. Stalin also achieved the cancellation of such a tank strike by the Germans in the forehead, "buried" their tanks in the ground, turning their steel fire pillboxes and repulsed the German attack. They went to Prokhorovka, where Rotmistrov’s tank army was led, under the leadership of Vatutin and Vasilevsky, who ordered, in violation of Headquarters order 325, to organize a tank blow to the forehead without suppressing the German defenses by artillery and aircraft.
          By the way, it was at the time of the Battle of Kursk that the Supreme Commander I.V. Stalin prepared a surprise for German tanks, in the form of small 2,5 kg of cumulative aerial bombs that effectively destroy tanks from the air.
          But our generals decided, as before, without reconnaissance of the enemy and the terrain, to abandon the tank army for a breakthrough that went over to the German defenses in this section, without suppressing anti-tank guns and tanks with artillery and aircraft, ditching the tank army with such difficulty.
          1. +24
            12 July 2018 16: 47
            you know, here’s everything retroactively so clever, Rotmistrov alone, paired with Vatutin, finished ebyly. Here answer simple questions
            1. how much time the Germans were on the captured bridgehead before the advance of Rotmistrov
            2. how many hours before the offensive were 2 German anti-tank batteries deployed? (there were deployed not 300 trunks, but about 60)
            3. How long does it take to arrange successful reconnaissance of the front line after a hasty retreat and bring information to the leadership?
            By the way, the Pak 40 gun has a low silhouette and you can see it disguised in tall grass only at close range, from 30 meters.
            and attention to the question - could they even have time to scout? I think no.
            Finally, the problem is not whether they managed to scout or not, but that they stupidly followed orders, regardless of changes in the situation. Finally, planning an advance in advance after a 230 km crossing without tactical preparation for guaranteed powerful forces is enchanting. And all for the sake of beautiful reporting. That was the problem, not the stupidity. And the same problem created the disaster of 1941.
            And most importantly - air reconnaissance was supposed to work at the right time in the right place, but it was not there. Most precisely, our command could organize the departure of a pair of fighters or spotters like the Su-2, which could significantly reveal the defense forces and help change plans, but this was not done because the operation leadership considered it impossible to abandon the approved plan and accordingly did not consider reconnaissance necessary.
            and lastly, our artillery experienced difficulties with quick transportation, so until the age of 44, it was very rare for the Red Army to organize operational support with artillery fire, so it was impossible to crush the positions near Prokhorovka in a short time. And Vatutin and Vasilevsky could not know all this.
            1. +7
              12 July 2018 18: 07
              Quote: yehat
              and attention to the question - could they even have time to scout? I think no.

              You think so. Enemy reconnaissance should be carried out continuously, regardless of the type of hostilities. And this was the weak point of our troops, especially armored, in those years. And Rotmistrov did not even bother to get acquainted with the engineering preparation of the area of ​​operations carried out by our troops! The advancing tank units simply fell into their anti-tank ditches, which were not notified.
            2. +5
              12 July 2018 20: 05
              Quote: yehat
              2. how many hours before the offensive were 2 German anti-tank batteries deployed? (there were deployed not 300 trunks, but about 60)

              305 barrels are with field and mortars:
              Consequently, up to 6,5 guns and mortars of all types, or almost 305 barrels per kilometer of the front, were located on the defense section of the Leibstandart md SS with a length of up to 47 km. Moreover, only 26 anti-aircraft guns and guns of the four T-2 tanks had a caliber of 20 mm, the remaining anti-aircraft weapons and tanks were 50–105 mm, and field artillery guns were 105–150 mm.
              © Zamulin
              But the density of the trunks of the PTO itself - PTP and tanks:
              On the evening of July 11, in the 18th and 29th malls, 191 T-34s and 19 Mk-4s were in service, having a frontal armor thickness of 60 mm or more. Due to the terrain conditions, sections of the hulls were reduced to about 5 km, therefore, the density of tanks could theoretically reach 42 units per kilometer, and only the density of enemy anti-tank guns (50–88 mm) and tanks that met them in the Leibstandart band, It turned out to be 25 units per 1 km. And if you take into account the self-propelled guns “Vespe”, “Hummel” and “Grizzly”, which also participated in the localization of the breakthroughs of the Leibstandart line on July 12, this figure will increase to 31 barrels per kilometer.
          2. The comment was deleted.
            1. +29
              12 July 2018 18: 27
              Quote: Vladimir 5
              completely destroyed their units and units in senseless attacks ..

              Well, well, where is this taught? Rezunovism with falconry ..
              Quote: Vladimir 5
              .. And the regiment commander was considered a hero, having laid the entire regiment with minor victories, the regiments were more often destroyed with zero effectiveness ...

              Yes? Well, please provide a link to such a hero, only a link to the archive. But not to someone. Where someone said something to someone.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. +17
                  12 July 2018 20: 37
                  Quote: Vladimir 5
                  According to the stories of front-line soldiers, especially German officers,

                  The beaten ones always lie. And you should lie less referring to various kinds of bikes.
                  Read the diary of the halder. He didn’t lie at first with his hand, the picture there is completely different.
                  Losses: From 22.6 to 30.6, our losses amount to a total of 41087 people = 1,64% of the available staff (with the number of troops equal to 2,5 million people). Killed: 524 officers and 8362 non-commissioned officers and privates. Wounded: 966 officers and 28528 non-commissioned officers and privates. Losses of officers in relation to total losses: wounded - 3,3% (campaign in the West - 3,1%), killed - 6,2% (campaign in the West - 4,85%), missing - 1,5 % (campaign in the West - 2%) .http: //militera.lib.ru/db/halder/1941_07.html
              2. +6
                12 July 2018 23: 22
                Quote: The Swordsman
                Quote: Vladimir 5
                .. And the regiment commander was considered a hero, having laid the entire regiment with minor victories, the regiments were more often destroyed with zero effectiveness ...

                Yes? Well, please provide a link to such a hero, only a link to the archive. But not to someone. Where someone said something to someone.

                Once, a movie was broadcast on TV as our military intelligence tried to get away from the Germans who were pressing on. They put them from the PCA in stacks. Father commented on this with one sentence: "So do not fight"
                - And how are they fighting?
                - They would have pressed them to the ground with fire, walked around from the flank and threw grenades.
                And then he said a phrase that crashed into my whole life: "A GERMAN officer would not have driven a soldier under bullets."
                1. 0
                  22 July 2018 09: 02
                  Quote: Captain Pushkin
                  Quote: The Swordsman
                  Quote: Vladimir 5
                  .. And the regiment commander was considered a hero, having laid the entire regiment with minor victories, the regiments were more often destroyed with zero effectiveness ...

                  Yes? Well, please provide a link to such a hero, only a link to the archive. But not to someone. Where someone said something to someone.

                  Once, a movie was broadcast on TV as our military intelligence tried to get away from the Germans who were pressing on. They put them from the PCA in stacks. Father commented on this with one sentence: "So do not fight"
                  - And how are they fighting?
                  - They would have pressed them to the ground with fire, walked around from the flank and threw grenades.
                  And then he said a phrase that crashed into my whole life: "A GERMAN officer would not have driven a soldier under bullets."

                  A German officer at the level of a platoon and sometimes a company in 41 is either a neighbor in the village or street, a good friend of the school .. These are grimaces of the German draft policy .. And in general, various fomins, mummies are somehow tired.
            2. +16
              12 July 2018 20: 13
              Quote: Vladimir 5
              You are wrong, the Stalinist regime was so overwhelming and punitive that it bound the initiative to the officers, and the officers were afraid of responsibility for not fulfilling the order (up to executions) and acted scrupulously and stubbornly according to the charter, although they understood the result of such actions

              Do you prefer armies in which commanders disobey orders and act proactively? Then you will like the Japanese army, in which the initiative actions of the division commanders led to the failure of the Imphal operation - one of the commanders stopped the advance a few kilometers from the only road from the British position to the rear and bickered with the commander for several days - solely to save the lives of the Yamato sons. During this time, the British mechanical units left the emerging boiler, and then these departed helped a lot to defeat the Japanese.
              In the Red Army, the officers took initiative in 1941. When the commander could not initiatively hand over the mechanized corps of his army to the front, and even undeploy the other mechanized corps passing through the strip of his army - solely in the name of the cause, to maintain the defense of his army and reduce losses. And as a result of this initiative, a frontal offensive broke out around the erupted 1st Tank Group of the Germans.
              1. +7
                12 July 2018 21: 08
                The problem of the Red Army in the leadership of all links above the battalion commander. Lack of communication, intelligence, knowledge of the terrain, the enemy, etc. led to belated and erroneous orders, I spoke about fear and other problems above. And constantly our command staff was otredov from the front line for tens of kilometers, when the commander of the corps G. Gudarian was always almost at the front line and led the operational transfer of forces and equipment. Let me give you an example: the 1942 Rzhev-Vyazemsky operation. where two armies were lost. The commander of the 33rd army requested a way out of the newly created boiler, G. Zhukov refused and ordered to advance further .. As a result, GNS Halder soon wrote down - the 33rd army was destroyed. There the losses of the Red Army up to 0,8 million soldiers. Only in the 70s in the interior of Simonov did G. Zhukov say that he did not know about the forces of the Germans, BECAUSE he insisted on the offensive and did not give permission to withdraw (and the two armies were routed) ... These are the commanders who do not know ... ... If the commander M. Efremov had been more proactive, he would have withdrawn the 33rd army from the encirclement and would not have to shoot himself. This is what the initiative is about. An interesting detail: G. Zhukov sent PO-33 to take out the commander of the 2rd Army, but the commander M.G. Efremov did not fly, because he knew that later he would be made the main culprit for G. Zhukov’s mistakes - such things are in the Red Army ...
                1. +15
                  12 July 2018 21: 57
                  Quote: Vladimir 5
                  Let me give you an example: the 1942 Rzhev-Vyazemsky operation. where two armies were lost. The commander of the 33rd army requested an exit from the created boiler, G. Zhukov refused and ordered to advance further ..

                  An example understood. The commander of 33A was to enter his army through the gap formed in the German defense, take a single German supply unit — Vyazma — with a quick strike and sit on the defensive there.
                  1. The strike group of the army without delay to advance in the direction of Red Hill, Sokolovo, where to go no later than February 1, 1942
                  In the future, interacting with the Belov group, take possession of Vyazma, embracing it from the south-west.
                  2. Frontal reserve - 9 guards. SD, next to Kukushkino, I submit to you.
                  3. The strike group should be composed of 113, 338, 160, 329 and 9 guards. sd

                  Instead, Efremov dragged the shock group to cover the flanks and was engaged in solving particular problems. As a result, the Germans managed to transfer reserves - with a predictable ending.
                  Quote: Vladimir 5
                  The problem of the Red Army in the leadership of all links above the battalion commander.

                  You would think that below the battalion was better. My favorite example is that 1/3 of the junior command personnel of the armored troops of the KOVO had only 1-3 grades of education or did not have it at all. Read-write, add-subtract - and they should train new recruits in the use of SVT (gas regulator, yes ...), "Maxim" (his NSD is now read as a prayer book of a tech priest - just adjusting the gaps is worth it), not to mention the tanks themselves.
                  Quote: Vladimir 5
                  G. Gudarian was always almost at the forefront and supervised the operational transfer of forces and assets.

                  Voroshilov, too was. And what did it give him?
                  1. +2
                    12 July 2018 23: 58
                    And it even gave that, unlike Pavlov, the troops under his command, although they were retreating, were not crushed to dust, like the troops in Belarus.
                    1. +3
                      13 July 2018 12: 47
                      Quote: Svidetel 45
                      And it even gave that, unlike Pavlov, the troops under his command, although they were retreating, were not crushed to dust, like the troops in Belarus.

                      Yeah ... that's just the creation of LANO somehow does not fit into the concept of "not defeated troops." Moreover, unlike the Moscow militia, whose divisions were initially in reserve and even had time to reform, the Leningrad People’s Militia Army went into battle immediately. 1 BOTTOM was formed on July 10, 1941, and on July 11 it was already unloaded at the Luga border.
                      8 And the SPZ was generally cut in half and moved from the boiler to the boiler - first, the environment near Tallinn, then the Oranienbaum Piglet. There is no reluctance to talk about the catastrophe on the Karelian Isthmus - the personnel units were pressed to the shore of the Federal Law and Ladoga, and the Finns had to stop the hastily restored KaUR with infantry filling from the militia and NKVD fighters.
                    2. +1
                      14 July 2018 03: 27
                      And you compare the Army Group Center, which was advancing on Moscow
                      and Army Group North, which was advancing through the Baltic to Leningrad
                      Center / North
                      Field Armies 2/2
                      Tank Groups 2/1
                      Divisions 50/23 + 6
                      The number of hp 1453 thousand / 793 thousand
                      Tanks 1700/646
                      3000/1200 guns
                      Aircraft 910/830
                      "Center" September 30 - early December operation "Typhoon"
                      "North" September 8 blockade of Leningrad
                      September 12 cancellation of the storming of Leningrad.
                      So not everything was unequivocally bad for Pavlov (in comparison with the Leningrad direction).
                  2. 0
                    13 July 2018 12: 18
                    This is written today on these battles as a refutation of the High Command and G. Zhukov. I will not analyze it, (for a long time), but what was ordered to M. Efremov is not feasible in those conditions. The rest were also not in the best position. Here is another point, a traitor from the command of the Red Army passed the direction of the main strikes to the Germans in 1942. (such information is not made public) and the Germans gathered powerful forces in this direction. our intelligence did not work well, therefore G. Zhukov did not know the Germans' power in this direction. After the war, it became known ...
                    Before the battalion commander, all participants in the battle, and see what is happening before their eyes, can correct errors and the situation that has arisen. But the order from above, often at odds with the existing situation on the front line, but it is necessary to carry out a murderous order, otherwise the tribunal, and other explanations were not accepted ...
                    Sneak and insignificance of K. Voroshilov to compare with G. Gudarian, a tank war strategist, you really do not compare a pug with an elephant .. K. Voroshilov showed himself to be completely insignificant as a commander under (like M. Budenny on the South-West front) Leningrad in 1941 that Stalin urgently recalled him and sent G. Zhukov to save the situation near Leningrad. K. Voroshilov and M. Budyonny are “court” marshals, and only a constant presence, like a propaganda bogeyman, kept them at their posts ...
                    1. +5
                      13 July 2018 13: 03
                      Quote: Vladimir 5
                      Here is another point, a traitor from the command of the Red Army passed the direction of the main strikes to the Germans in 1942. (such information is not made public) and the Germans gathered powerful forces in this direction. our intelligence did not work well, therefore G. Zhukov did not know the power of the Germans in this direction

                      You confuse the Rzhev-Vyazemsky and "Mars".
                      Quote: Vladimir 5
                      Before the battalion commander, all participants in the battle, and see what is happening before their eyes, can correct errors and the situation that has arisen.

                      Blessed is he who believes ... read the orders on the Lenfront - there are just battalion commanders who don’t observe the battlefield, they don’t normally make battle plans and allow such egregious cases as the fire of battalion mortars at their own soldiers who burst into the enemy’s trench.
                      Quote: Vladimir 5
                      But the order from above, often at odds with the existing situation on the front line, but it is necessary to carry out a murderous order, otherwise the tribunal, and other explanations were not accepted ...

                      Right. Because while some are standing to their death in the bare snow-covered steppe, others in their rear hastily are thrown into the threatened direction, unloaded and build defenses. And if you take pity on those who stand and give them an order to leave, then tomorrow there will be a hundred times more victims.
                      While some regularly attack the enemy’s defenses, riveting his attention to this direction, others secretly concentrate on another bridgehead, preparing to attack where no one is waiting for them.
                      This is one layer. But there is another one - the executors themselves often made deadly orders of high commanders. Because they performed them in violation of the Charter and instructions. And often the orders themselves. A textbook case near Moscow, when Zhukov ordered to bypass the fortified points of the enemy, and the divisional officers still violently knocked on their forehead, I hope you know. But even below it was no better. The tank brigade was ordered to attack the adversary. The brigade commander, by the way, who goes on the attack with his subordinates, that is, the leader with the front line, executes this order in the forehead, leads the tanks directly into the attack, through the crest of the height, without any interaction with the infantry on the breakthrough site. Result - in the evening, the tbr was zeroed.
                      Quote: Vladimir 5
                      K. Voroshilov and M. Budyonny are “court” marshals, and only a constant presence, like a propaganda bogeyman, kept them at their posts ...

                      In fact, Budyonny struck through Stavka and organized in 1942 a retreat to the border of the Caucasus Range - infantry from tanks, without serious boilers. And in September 1941, he repeatedly demanded from the Headquarters of the order to withdraw troops from the Dnieper line - for which he flew off the post.
                      1. -2
                        13 July 2018 16: 51
                        In 1941-42, the Germans replayed in intelligence, and had enough information (applied from eavesdropping on telephone lines of headquarters, radio, to the capture of headquarters officers and messengers) ... Therefore, they always had an advantage and knew where to wait. With the declassification of "Mars," the leak in the Rzhevo Vyazemsky later operation was recognized. There were a lot in the first two years of betrayal, negligence and other things, the others were just not recognized ...
                        Quote: “That's right. Because while some are dying in the bare snowy steppe, others in their rear are hastily thrown into the threatened direction, unloaded and build defenses.” - Yes, if it was so, keep the defense, but the orders were based on the charter of the Red Army to GO, and the goals were given of taking the village, height, town. The offensive plan is developed by the headquarters: corps, divisions, regiment, so do not just give out stupid things. They urged us on from above and the fear at the bottom was concrete, and we rushed straight ahead ... We came with one result and several times a day, and there was nothing left from the regiments except for the headquarters .. Manshtein wrote: we’ll defeat one army, the other grows opposite, and we chop like a hundred-headed hydra, - that was the main principle of the Zhukovsky strategy, crush, -. without regard to losses. During the first three years of the war, the Germans ground the THREE composition of the Red Army in 1941 .... There are suspicions that even some com. the regiment and tried to quickly put the regiment into the "race", and then re-form and for a long time with the front line .. Cases in which the regiment didn’t even go to the toilet out of the dugout required a bucket (there was a case like a helmet. need without shelling), so what to expect from such "heroes" .- commanders ... There are many heroes at the Second World War, but there are not a few black spots ...
                    2. +6
                      13 July 2018 13: 03
                      K. Voroshilov showed himself to be completely insignificant as a commander under (like M. Budenny on the South-West front) Leningrad in 1941 that Stalin urgently recalled him and sent G. Zhukov to save the situation near Leningrad. - Vladimir 5 (Vladimir)

                      You do not know the true story. The salvation of Leningrad by Zhukov is a myth of the war.
                      K. Voroshilov was the organizer of the defense of the North-West direction from July 10 to September 13, 1941. He managed to prevent the defeat and encirclement of his troops, rather skillfully organized their retreat in the most difficult period, when the Western Front of Pavlov completely crumbled.
                      In September, after the Germans blocked Leningrad, I.V. Stalin sent Zhukov to the Leningrad Front, and Marshal Kulik as commander of the 54th Army to organize the deblockade of the city. Zhukov arrived in Leningrad on September 13. And before that, on September 12, Hitler had already decided not to storm Leningrad, but limited himself to his blockade, and part of the German troops began to be removed and sent to Moscow on September 15-16.
                      Zhukov did nothing for the deblockade of Leningrad from the inside. The Germans began to exert powerful pressure on the 54th Army of Kulik to defeat his army, with access to the connection with the Finns to organize a complete blockade of Leningrad, including Lake Ladoga.
                      K. Voroshilov - the organizer of the defense of Leningrad was wounded before this, and Zhukov came to replace him with the task of releasing the city. Zhukov did not cope with this task.
                      1. +1
                        13 July 2018 14: 25
                        Quote: vladimirZ
                        And before that, on September 12, Hitler had already decided not to storm Leningrad, but limited himself to his blockade, and part of the German troops began to be removed and sent to Moscow on September 15-16.

                        Not everything is so simple. GKZH appeared in Leningrad exactly at the very moment when the command of GA "North" threw its forces into last and decisive battle. Because the Germans needed blood from their nose to either take the city, or at least take the most advantageous positions for the few days that they had until the start of the withdrawal of 4 TGy.
                      2. +1
                        17 July 2018 20: 49
                        You are our sofa! But Hitler Stalin or Zhukov notified of his decision on September 12 not to take Leningrad by storm. With such "truth-seekers" and pro-Western counterfeiters it is not necessary ...
                    3. 0
                      13 July 2018 13: 32
                      Quote: Vladimir 5
                      Stalin urgently recalled him and sent G. Zhukov to save the situation near Leningrad

                      Zhukov arrived in Leningrad with a group of generals, after Malenkov, who was responsible for stabilizing the situation near Leningrad.
                    4. +1
                      17 July 2018 21: 15
                      compare with G. Gudarian, a tank war strategist,

                      Since when did GoodErian become a strategist? And what is a tank war? They will recruit children in the army ... in the sense of the Military Review!
                  3. +2
                    13 July 2018 12: 28
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    Voroshilov was also there. And what did it give him?


                    Well Voroshilov, far from Guderian.
                    He could not be allowed to command, which ended his "career".
                2. +4
                  13 July 2018 12: 25
                  Quote: Vladimir 5
                  The problem of the Red Army in the leadership of all links above the battalion commander. Lack of communication, intelligence, knowledge of the terrain, the enemy, etc. led to belated and erroneous orders, I spoke about fear and other problems above. And constantly our command staff was otredov from the front line for tens of kilometers, when the commander of the corps G. Gudarian was always almost at the front line and led the operational transfer of forces and equipment. Let me give you an example: the 1942 Rzhev-Vyazemsky operation. where two armies were lost. The commander of the 33rd army requested a way out of the newly created boiler, G. Zhukov refused and ordered to advance further .. As a result, GNS Halder soon wrote down - the 33rd army was destroyed. There the losses of the Red Army up to 0,8 million soldiers. Only in the 70s in the interior of Simonov did G. Zhukov say that he did not know about the forces of the Germans, BECAUSE he insisted on the offensive and did not give permission to withdraw (and the two armies were routed) ... These are the commanders who do not know ... ... If the commander M. Efremov had been more proactive, he would have withdrawn the 33rd army from the encirclement and would not have to shoot himself. This is what the initiative is about. An interesting detail: G. Zhukov sent PO-33 to take out the commander of the 2rd Army, but the commander M.G. Efremov did not fly, because he knew that later he would be made the main culprit for G. Zhukov’s mistakes - such things are in the Red Army ...


                  You are right - during the life of the "legendary Marshals of Victory" it was not customary to disassemble their miscalculations, which cost quite a few lives.
                  Separate reviews are taking place along the lines of the Academy of the General Staff, but on the whole, on the history of the Second World War, we have a big blank spot in evaluating the decisions made.
                  So we believe that everything was “heroic”, forgetting that the heroism of some was often a miscalculation of the commanders.
                  1. +7
                    13 July 2018 13: 40
                    Quote: DimerVladimer
                    during the life of the "legendary Marshals of Victory" it was not customary to disassemble their miscalculations, which cost quite a few lives.
                    Separate reviews are taking place along the lines of the Academy of the General Staff, but on the whole, on the history of the Second World War, we have a big blank spot in evaluating the decisions made.
                    So we believe that everything was “heroic”, forgetting that the heroism of some was often a miscalculation of the commanders.

                    Perhaps the whole truth about all the “Marshals of Victory” should not be brought to the general public, but it’s high time to remove all sorts of bloated successes and diverse hatreds from official campaigns.
                    We have enough genuine arbiters of Victory and real glorious victories, so that, with all this, we’ll stoop to some kind of stupid propaganda.
                3. +1
                  19 July 2018 19: 13
                  Mr. Vladimir 5, it’s hard for you to accept that commander Efremov MG He remained in the cauldron not out of fear of punishment, but out of a desire not to abandon his soldiers and accept their fate. He died in battle as an honest officer.
              2. +1
                12 July 2018 22: 00
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Then you will like the Japanese army,

                Is the IDF possible?
              3. +2
                13 July 2018 13: 35
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Then you will like the Japanese army, in which the initiative actions of the division commanders led to the failure of the Imphal operation - one of the divisional commanders stopped the advance a few kilometers from the only road from the British position to the rear and bickered with the commander for several days only to save the lives of the Yamato sons. During this time, the British mechanical units left the emerging boiler, and then these departed helped a lot to defeat the Japanese.


                Why did you stop it? Let’s then consider the operational environment in detail.
                Even when planning the operation, logistics was planned in the amount of 60% of the urgent, and replenishment of l / s - only 20%.
                As a result, the minimum planned supply was not received.
                The amount of ammunition and the 20-day supply of food available in the troops were calculated only for a sudden and quick breakthrough. If the offensive dragged on or stopped, then the main forces of the army would be in an extremely difficult position on the territory of the enemy due to the lack of supply. However, the command of the 15th Army unconditionally believed in success and ignored these considerations.


                Further, at the very beginning of the operation, large British forces landed in the rear, completely paralyzing even those same 60% of the planned supply.

                From March 5, that is, a few days before the start of Operation U, unexpected events occurred in North Burma. In the forests of Kata, on the eastern bank of the river. The Irrawaddy, one after the other, began to land units of the enemy airborne troops. For the first time this was reported to the army headquarters from the headquarters of the 15th division on March 9. The paratroopers quickly equipped the airfield and began active operations, mainly on the roads, which put the rear Japanese units in a difficult position. The command of the army was unable at first to correctly assess the real forces of the enemy in this area and mistakenly believed that the units stationed here would easily destroy the landing.

                However, it turned out quite unexpectedly that it was the 3rd Indian division, which consisted of six brigades of four-battalion composition. In addition, the division had its own aviation units, namely: a detachment of fighter-bombers, a detachment of medium bombers, detachments of transport and communications aircraft. By March 11, the enemy’s strength reached 9250; artillery and vehicles were deployed.

                The airborne assault forces not only put the 18th division in a critical position, but became an important factor in determining the prospects for the development of Operation "U" for the main forces of the entire 15th Army. The automobile parts, which were supposed to be used after the start of operation “U” for carrying out transportation along the Shvebo-Kaleva road, were blocked on the Vunto-Khoumalin section. This created difficulties in supplying troops advancing on Imphal.


                However, mistakes and mistakes unexpectedly followed. The first was that due to improper actions by the commander of the 214th Infantry Regiment, the enemy was able to regain one of the key positions northeast of Townzan, as a result of which the 17th Division significantly improved its position. To help her from the 4th corps was sent 37th Tank Brigade(!), which on March 18 launched offensive operations. For its part, the 17th Division also took measures to exit the environment (more than 1000 cars and armored vehicles). Heavy mountain battles unfolded on mountain roads.

                And here a second mistake was made. The commander of the 33rd Division, Yanagid, having received instructions demanding that the troops fight to the end, read in him only the last word, interpreting it as the end of the operation. On March 24, he ordered one of the strike groups to retreat, thereby opening the way to the withdrawal of the 17th Division, which, with hundreds of armored vehicles, headed for Imphal. Subsequently, it turned out that the losses of the aforementioned strike group were only 15%.


                That is, the 17th division in itself surpasses the Japanese forces surrounding it (!) It is supplied with air + the 37th brigade, with the support of tanks, delivers a debilitating strike ... It is simply amazing what efforts the Japanese counter-strike against the enemy superior to them - and this is called mistakes ... Well, well.
                The Japanese have no supplies - they have a landed British division sitting on communications. Neither tanks nor full-fledged artillery (only light mountain and almost no shells ...) - a "mistake" is good for itself.

                Then a gross miscalculation followed. Because of the need to replenish forces and means, the division commander Yanagid did not dare to quickly pursue the enemy retreating to Imphal.

                Again, actions were evaluated as a mistake - by the way, to pursue on foot (and the Japanese only have mules) a mechanized division (!!) you need food and at least ammunition - who wrote these descriptions without any understanding of the situation ???
                1. +3
                  13 July 2018 16: 56
                  Quote: DimerVladimer
                  It is simply amazing what efforts the Japanese without anti-tank forces hold back the counterattacks of their superior opponent - and this is called mistakes ... Well, well.

                  15% loss retreat for the japanese it is a mistake. Especially when you consider that this is not the only jamb of Yanagida:
                  Then a gross miscalculation followed. Because of the need to replenish forces and means, the division commander Yanagid did not dare to quickly pursue the enemy retreating to Imphal. Moreover, on March 27, Yanagida expressed his opinion to the army commander Mutaguchi about the need to suspend Operation U and go on the defensive. He motivated this by his lack of readiness for the quick destruction of the main enemy forces in Imphal and drew attention to the fact that the situation in the Hukaun Valley and the actions of the enemy airborne landing could put the entire defense of Northern Burma in a dangerous position. Meanwhile, the main forces of the army successfully crossed the river. Chindwin. The 31st and 15th divisions, rapidly advancing on Kokhima and northeast of Imphal, broke through mountain ranges.
                  Army commander Mutaguchi expressed sharp displeasure with Yanagide, whose divisions had a crucial role in Operation U, and demanded that the order be followed.
                  So, after ten days of meditation, Yanagid ordered the advance to the north to begin again. During this time, the 4th enemy corps restored the position of its troops. Contrary to strict orders, the actions of the 33rd Division developed not so much in the interests of overall success, but in anticipation of possible enemy counterattacks. The idea of ​​a quick breakthrough into the Imphal valley, foreseen from the very beginning by the plan of the army headquarters, burst like a soap bubble.
                  © Hattori Takushiro
                  10 days delayed onset. The decisive, critical offensive of the IJA is the only chance to somehow reverse the situation at the front. And all this was done by one divisor.
                  1. 0
                    16 July 2018 10: 44
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    10 days delayed onset. The decisive, critical offensive of the IJA is the only chance to somehow reverse the situation at the front. And all this was done by one divisor.


                    Alexey, let’s return to the operational environment and what the “researchers in the silence of comfortable rooms” don’t write or formulate as errors.

                    The division forces the river and moves along mountain trails, cutting roads and leaving barriers (on foot and with mules along mountain trails - no transport! Except elephants in the jungle and mules along the mountains).
                    A lot of the division will take away on mules and on itself in the mountains, in the conditions of mountain trails and impenetrable jungle?
                    3-4-5 ammunition and very little provisions.
                    Artillery: from 8 to 12 units to the Japanese infantry division 75 mm mountain guns "type 41" (1908 g) or, at best, "type 94" (1934 g) - which are extremely limited b / c due to the complete lack of supply - FULL! And what they took with them - ended in the first week of heavy fighting - they ate mules, kept ammunition individually.
                    Given the fact that the transport of the gun itself requires 4-5 mules, and on one mule only 6-8 shells to a mountain cannon.
                    That is, at the same time, the Japanese division blocked the roads and blocked the British division (!) With the strength and strength significantly exceeding the forces surrounding it - and even with armored vehicles (!)

                    The Japanese command hoped that the British division, being surrounded - would surrender, as happened at the beginning of the war - but these were not the same divisions. Their supply was organized by air. And the Japanese did not even have enough bullets, because their supply was cut.
                    Yes - detachment losses were 15% - but there were no cartridges to repel the attacks and therefore they had to leave the height. And there were no shells to stop the breakthrough of the Britons.
                    And there was no way to pursue - for the same reason. Half of the mules were “eaten” because of a lack of supplies.
                    These are errors of planning and supply, and not misses of tactical command.
                    Besides:
                    Until the end of the war, the old 37 mm type 41 gun remained in service along with the 47 mm gun (type 1). Most 47-mm guns were in separate divisions of tank destroyers. At the division level, anti-tank units in the Japanese army did not exist.
                    (!)
                    That is, the Japanese infantry division without supply, without the anti-tank movement, is it proposed to pursue the British mechanized division?
                    The statement of the problem is so divorced from reality that even the executive Japanese division commander found it impossible to send unarmed soldiers to useless death until he received replenishment of the ammunition.

                    75 mm mountain gun "type 94" - according to the staffing table, one battery per regiment
            3. +4
              13 July 2018 09: 06
              this was in the army, but you need to understand that this is a direct violation of the instructions on tactics and was punished accordingly. I’ll give an example - Katukov retreated with his tanks to Moscow, beat the vanguard of Guderian and saved the tank brigade, but the commissar who arrived from Moscow forced them to attack the forehead, threatening to shoot the command staff, and they knew that it was already 2 lines of the VET.
              Katukov’s offer to bypass the folds of the area was rejected.
              Then this commissar returned and was not punished, but Stalin personally forbade his promotion to the top when he found out.
              1. 0
                13 July 2018 23: 19
                The story is wonderful. About Katukov, about Stalin and the nameless commissar.
                Did Stalin personally forbid you to name the commissioner's name?
                1. 0
                  14 July 2018 13: 39
                  I am not a historian to remember everyone
                  I remember Katukov, because one of the most famous tankers
                  and of all the commissars I remember 2-3 surnames
        3. +8
          12 July 2018 14: 31
          But now all of the Guderians are all with Caesars. .... How can you not read the scribe directly to Hitler on the 3rd day. How's it going bolt
        4. 0
          12 July 2018 16: 27
          are you here for a local fool
        5. 0
          13 July 2018 01: 15
          What specific local conflicts?
        6. +1
          13 July 2018 17: 40
          Quote: scientist
          The mediocrity of the generals is compensated by the mass heroism of ordinary soldiers - this is the Law

          This illiteracy / mediocrity led to the defeat of the "Great" Germany
        7. +1
          14 July 2018 18: 24
          In which war or local conflict did the Red (Soviet) Army fail? You have to answer for the bazaar, my dear!
          1. +1
            15 July 2018 20: 57
            In the Finnish War of 1939–40, she strategically lost. According to the plan of the Red Army, the Finnish armed forces were to defeat and establish Soviet power in Finland (which happened in western Belarus and others with the introduction of the Red Army). The created People's Government of Finland had already been prepared and was waiting in Petrozavodsk for their move to Helsinki. The Finns fiercely fought back and the capture of Helsinki was postponed (the capital was often bombed)., It became clear that the new government would not accept Finnish society and that a protracted guerrilla war would continue to threaten the plan and the war on Finland’s accession was foiled in view of the powerful rebuff from the Finnish armed forces. Propaganda of the USSR had to put forward a version of the borders. Although the Finns signed a peace treaty with the loss of part of the territory, they maintained the independence of the state. PPR brains are so crowded for us that not even a simple one can understand ...
            1. +3
              16 July 2018 10: 49
              Quote: Vladimir 5
              According to the plan of the Red Army, the Finnish Armed Forces were to defeat and establish Soviet power in Finland (which happened in western Belarus and others with the introduction of the Red Army)

              Plan to capture Finland in the studio! smile
              Quote: Vladimir 5
              The plan and war on Finland’s annexation has been foiled in view of a powerful rebuff from the Finnish Armed Forces. Propaganda of the USSR had to put forward a version of the borders.

              At the time of the conclusion of the peace treaty, the Finnish armed forces were defeated, the only defense line was cut through to the full depth, and the road to Helsinki was open. And the USSR had forces to continue the war.
              And no need for pressure from the Allies. If this pressure had been, nothing would have prevented the USSR from seizing Finland in June 1940. When the "guarantors" of Finnish independence thought - how would they survive.
            2. +2
              17 July 2018 20: 44
              Quote: Vladimir 5
              In the Finnish War of 1939-40, she strategically lost

              She strategically won by pushing the state border from Leningrad, which ultimately allowed her to keep the city.
              Quote: Vladimir 5
              PPR’s brains are so full of us that ...

              YOU are so clogged with brains it’s not clear what, that in military matters you simply don’t understand anything, for sure at a strategic level!
        8. -1
          3 September 2018 21: 41
          Scientist! And you, of course, are a Nobel laureate, so far before you, Stalin and his generals.
        9. 0
          2 October 2018 18: 21
          The soldiers and the people, in spite of Stalin, increased the production of what followed, threw troops and created hundreds of trains that Stalin did not even know about. According to some know-it-alls, he arranged feasts every day with caviar, pineapples and grouse. The commanders led the troops east, because the earth was round in several planes and it was possible to enter the enemy from the rear. But soldiers and tanks in spite of the commanders and generals went forward and killed with a bayonet. Here is my cousin during the Battle of Kursk was the commander of a tank battalion. The day did not remind. But he said that they had received orders to hide in the forest and not lean out, not show initiative, but wait for an order. In general, there was a steppe straight, like a table. But then there was a ramp. And German tanks left on this field. Huge tanks were ahead, and smaller tanks were behind, infantry was following the tanks. As soon as the German tanks reached the middle of the field above them, something purred and fell into the front tiger. A tower was demolished from it and the tiger turned over. Nobody got out of it. Then after a few more flew by, like falling into a tank, so it crumbled into pieces, like cardboard. Then the tanks stopped and began to move back over the hill. As soon as they left, planes flew in and began to bomb there, Katyushas had already earned. After the planes flew away, and the fighters remained in the air, an officer arrived by car and gave the order. Then there was already an attack by tanks. But there was no way to drive through the area where the Germans were. Everywhere there were funnels and burning equipment. I had to go around. We drove 50 km without meeting the Germans. They stopped because the infantry was behind. And everyone is tired. He asked - what were the German tanks knocked out with? He answered with termite shells. Burned through the tanks. A blow and a hole in the tank, then an explosion.
          1. -1
            7 October 2018 21: 17
            Well done, you’ve great them (probably because of modesty from your brother you told me, because you were there), Glavlit will print, the fee will be. Start writing an extended version, like a whole German tank corps in the trash ... They promised to increase the fee ...
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  3. Cat
    +4
    12 July 2018 06: 07
    Thank you!
    There are some points with which I do not agree, but this is an occasion for a good diploma in the comments, which is also a plus!
  4. +8
    12 July 2018 06: 11
    to break through the enemy’s defense. Rotmistrov decided to crush the enemy with a massive tank attack in a narrow area, deciding to drop four tank brigades and a self-propelled regiment there at a small interval

    so whom to appoint guilty ?? Vasilevsky or Rotmistrov?
    IT WAS TO ANSWER TO “PARTNERS” WHERE WHERE WE COULD IN THIS ENVIRONMENT - FOR BREAKTHROUGH OR FOR EASY DISTURBANCE FROM OTHER PLOTS OF THE KURSK ARC. VICTIM.
    play chess - not a life to live.
    but there was no other then
    1. +14
      12 July 2018 10: 05
      Quote: antivirus
      so whom to appoint guilty ?? Vasilevsky or Rotmistrov?


      Guilty was "appointed" Rotmistrov. In the actual defeat of 5 Guards. TA dealt with a special commission led by Malenkov. Rotmistrova defended Vasilevsky. But until the end of the war, Rotmistrov was in disgrace with Stalin.
      1. +5
        12 July 2018 11: 35
        Quote: VIT101
        Quote: antivirus
        so whom to appoint guilty ?? Vasilevsky or Rotmistrov?


        Guilty was "appointed" Rotmistrov. In the actual defeat of 5 Guards. TA dealt with a special commission led by Malenkov. Rotmistrova defended Vasilevsky. But until the end of the war, Rotmistrov was in disgrace with Stalin.

        Initially, Rotmistrov was going to be shot. Vasilevsky escaped with the temporary dismissal of the representative of the Headquarters. Although the idea of ​​a counterattack on the forehead by the advancing tank corps belonged to him. When discussing the plan, Stalin asked if it would be more logical to strike at the flank, Vasilevsky insisted that he would crush everyone with tanks. And this specialist with his hats (or rather corpses), Stalin was among the most beloved commanders until the end of the war.
        1. +10
          12 July 2018 18: 16
          Quote: Captain Pushkin
          And this specialist with his hats (or rather corpses), Stalin was among the most beloved commanders until the end of the war.

          A.M. Vasilevsky conducted the Manchurian strategic offensive operation, which was recognized as almost ideal. He was respected quite deservedly. Although the actions of the Voronezh Front were quite controversial issues. “Warfare is simple and quite accessible to the sound mind of man. But fighting is difficult. ”
      2. +3
        12 July 2018 12: 06
        Quote: VIT101
        until the end of the war, Rotmistrov was in disgrace with Stalin.

        But then there was Khrushchov, "and where our dear Nikita Sergeich is, there is a victory!"
        1. +4
          12 July 2018 12: 29
          Quote: iouris
          But then there was Khrushchov, "and where our dear Nikita Sergeich is, there is a victory!"

          Yeah ... the death of Vatutin is the same on the conscience of the corn ... Nominally died from wounds inflicted on the farmers, having been ambushed. But really ... Nikita tried hard ..
    2. +1
      12 July 2018 10: 33
      On the evening of July 10, 1943, the command of the Voronezh Front received the order of the Supreme High Command on a counterattack on the grouping of German troops advancing in the prokhorov direction. For this purpose, the 5th Guards Army, Lieutenant General A. S. Zhadov, and the 5th Guards Tank Army, Lieutenant General Panzer Troops P. A. Rotmistrov, were transferred from the reserve Steppe Front to the Voronezh Front. The 5th Guards Tank Army was the first tank army of uniform composition. Its formation began on February 10, 1943, and by the beginning of the Battle of Kursk it was deployed in the region of Ostrogozhsk (Voronezh Region). The army consisted of the 18th and 29th tank corps and the 5th Guards Mechanized Corps.

      Bid ...
      1. 0
        12 July 2018 12: 46
        Stalin?

        it was smooth on paper ...

        Vasilevsky and Rotmistrov could give orders to advance ONLY at the level of understanding of their soldiers.
        did the political officers (PMC, etc.) agree with the order?
        1. +7
          12 July 2018 15: 37
          But was only JV Stalin in the Headquarters?
          July 10, 1941 - February 17, 1945
          chairman Stalin
          the composition of Tymoshenko, Zhukov, Budyonny, Voroshilov, Shaposhnikov, Molotov.
          Vatutin and Khrushchev "were eager to attack" even before the start of battles!
          The main feature of the Battle of Kursk, which distinguishes it from other operations of the Second World War, was that it was here, for the first time in two years since the Nazi Germany’s attack on the USSR, that the Soviet command correctly determined the direction of the main strategic offensive of the German troops and managed to prepare for it in advance.
          In the course of analyzing the situation that developed on the Central and Voronezh fronts in the spring of 1943, on the basis of information transmitted by British intelligence, as well as holding short-term strategic games at the General Staff in April 1943, it was suggested that it was under Kursk that the German command would try to take revenge for the Stalingrad "boiler".
          During the discussion of plans to counter the German offensive by the General Staff and Headquarters members, two variants of the 1943 summer campaign were proposed. One was to deliver a heavy preemptive strike on the German troops even before the offensive, defeat them at deployment positions, and then transfer to decisive an offensive by five fronts with the goal of a quick exit to the Dnieper.
          The second envisaged a meeting of the advancing German troops with a well-prepared defense in depth equipped with a large amount of artillery in order to exhaust their strength in defensive battles and then go on the offensive with fresh forces from three fronts.
          The most ardent supporters of the first version of the campaign were the commander of the Voronezh Front, N. Vatutin, and a member of the military council of the front, N. Khrushchev, who asked for the strengthening of their front with one combined arms and one tank armies in order to go on the offensive by the end of May. Their plan was supported by the representative of the Headquarters A. Vasilevsky.
          The supporter of the second option was the command of the Central Front, who rightly believed that a preemptive strike would be accompanied by large losses of Soviet troops, and the reserves accumulated by German troops could be used to prevent the development of our offensive and launch powerful counterattacks during it.
          The problem was resolved when the supporters of the second option were supported by G. Zhukov, who called the first scenario “a new variant of the summer of 1942”, when the German troops not only repelled a premature Soviet offensive, but were able to encircle the bulk of the Soviet troops and enter the operational space for an attack on Stalingrad . I. Stalin, apparently convinced by such a vivid argumentation, took the side of a defensive strategy.
          1. +8
            12 July 2018 17: 40
            I'm not talking about the entire campaign of 43 g, but according to the tactics of the battle of Kursk - "You, in place, know better where to counterattack, etc."
            and about the IVS, they make him guilty for everything ("the dead do not shame the dead"), and alive after his death - the joy of withdrawing claims from oneself.
            1. +6
              12 July 2018 17: 47
              Responsibility on the spot was on Vatutin and Khrushchev! And immediately after the fighting, they tried to make Rotmistrov extreme! And he had to write his famous letter -
              If our aviation during the years of World War II, according to its tactical and technical data, is steadily moving forward, giving more and more more advanced aircraft, then unfortunately this cannot be said about our tanks.
              Now the T-34 and KV tanks have lost the first place that they rightfully had among the tanks of the warring countries in the early days of the war.
              Back in December 1941, I seized a secret instruction from the German command, which was written on the basis of the German field tests of our KV and T-34 tanks.
              As a result of these tests, the instructions wrote approximately the following: German tanks cannot conduct tank combat with Russian KV and T-34 tanks and should avoid tank combat. When meeting with Russian tanks, it was recommended to hide behind artillery and transfer the actions of tank units to another section of the front.
              And, indeed, if we recall our tank battles of 1941 and 1942, it can be argued that the Germans usually did not enter into battle with us without the help of other combat arms, and if they did, then with multiple superiority among their tanks, which it was not difficult for them to achieve in 1941 and in 1942.
              On the basis of our T-34 tank - the best tank in the world by the beginning of the war, the Germans in 1943 managed to give an even more advanced T-U tank, the Panther, which is essentially a copy of our T-3 tank, in their qualities are significantly higher than the T-34 tank, and especially in terms of quality of weapons.
              I, as an ardent patriot of tank troops, I ask you, Comrade Marshal of the Soviet Union, to break the conservatism and arrogance of our tank designers and manufacturers, and with all severity will raise the question of the mass production of new tanks by the winter of 1943 that are superior in their combat qualities and constructive the design of the existing types of German tanks.
              In addition, I ask you to drastically improve the equipment of tank units with evacuation means.
              As a rule, the enemy evacuates all of their wrecked tanks, and our tankers are often deprived of this opportunity, as a result of which we lose a lot in terms of tank recovery. At the same time, in those cases where the tank battlefield remains for some time behind the enemy, our repairmen instead of their wrecked tanks find shapeless piles of metal, since this year the enemy, leaving the battlefield, blows up all our wrecked tanks.
              1. +4
                12 July 2018 18: 34
                Quote: hohol95
                And immediately after the fighting, they tried to make Rotmistrov extreme!

                Why suddenly extreme? He really ditched his 5th GuardsTA there. There, he was also assisted by General Krasovsky, who "on July 12 launched systematic bombing attacks on the troops of almost all the armies that went on the offensive." In general, 2 VA near Kursk was not "on top". The Germans had a similar situation, but "somewhat less often."
              2. +10
                12 July 2018 20: 24
                Quote: hohol95
                I, as an ardent patriot of tank troops, I ask you, Comrade Marshal of the Soviet Union, to break the conservatism and arrogance of our tank designers and manufacturers, and with all severity will raise the question of the mass production of new tanks by the winter of 1943 that are superior in their combat qualities and constructive the design of the existing types of German tanks.

                Oh yes ... perfect shooter translation. Of course, tank designers are to blame for the fact that the army commander launched a cross-country offensive on the uncharted enemy defenses without reconnaissance and artillery preparation. Rotmistrov, even with the long-range artillery assigned to him with 203-mm howitzers, could not establish interaction.
                If 18 and 29 mk would have T-55 or T-72 - the result would be the same. A battalion entry into the battle directly to the unsupported German anti-tank missile ... would burn them aboard the same way.
                That is why Katukov found the courage to turn to the IVS with a request to cancel an unprepared attack, but not Rotmistov? What prevented 5 Guards. TA stand up for defense - how did she do it the next day?
            2. +5
              13 July 2018 14: 19
              Quote: antivirus
              I'm not talking about the entire campaign of 43 g, but according to the tactics of the battle of Kursk - "You, in place, know better where to counterattack, etc."
              and about the IVS, they make him guilty for everything ("the dead do not shame the dead"), and alive after his death - the joy of withdrawing claims from oneself.

              The main fault of Stalin is that sometimes he put key people at the key positions who were not trained and unable to perform functional duties.
              The same Zhukov in 1939 was a brigade commander, in 1940 he became commander of the Kiev military district, and in 1941 he became chief of the General Staff, despite the fact that Zhukov never worked in headquarters and had no predisposition to this. Much of what Stalin was accused of in the pre-war period and in the initial period of the war would be more logical to present to Zhukov.
              1. +5
                13 July 2018 14: 55
                Quote: Captain Pushkin
                The main fault of Stalin is that sometimes he put key people at the key positions who were not trained and unable to perform functional duties.

                Personnel hunger, however ...
                You demand that we replace Kozlov with someone like Hindenburg. But you cannot but know that we do not have the Hindenburgs in reserve.

                In the pre-war growth of the Red Army, the worst thing was not the increase in the number of personnel. The worst thing was the increase in the number of compounds:
                As of January 01, 1937, the Red Army had 44 personnel, 4 mixed, 35 territorial, 3 collective farm SDs and 11 SD SDs. Total - 97 divisions.
                As of December 1940, the Red Army had 97 personnel SDs, 9 personnel MD, 10 personnel GSM, 72 personnel SD. total - 188 divisions.
                And the growth process did not stop there - ahead was the formation of twenty-one MK in the spring of 1941.
                In parallel, the number of corps and armies grew. And all these new states needed to be filled. But the personnel reserve of the Red Army remained from the time when it had 20 personnel divisions and more than 60 territorial divisions (the quality of the staff of which was mediocre at best).
                And all this was superimposed on a long period of complacency, carelessness, fraud and resting on Civilian laurels, ending with a tough debriefing of flights around the Soviet-Finnish and the arrival of Tymoshenko. The Red Army began to be pulled out of the swamp - but this process was complex and slow. Here, for example, the results of combat training ZAPOVO for the winter period of 40/41, sent to Tymoshenko:
                "Over the past 4 months, the District carried out the following activities to prepare the top command staff and staffs:" (blah blah blah two-page list of events) and the following phrase crowns all this:
                "As a result of all these activities, the operational training of senior officers has grown significantly and is assessed mediocre."
                Then everything is no less beautiful.
                "Infantry.
                ...
                Conclusion: the units and formations of the district, fulfilling your requirement to co-ordinate companies and battalions, are quite ready to solve simple combat missions "

                “The preparation of mortar units and subunits is mediocre, with the exception of 24 ombi, the preparation of which is poor. The preparation of 45 and 76 regimental artillery is mediocre.
                ...
                The conducted artillery firing and viewing exercises showed that the division’s artillery of the District was prepared to perform combat missions in the main types of combat mediocre.
                ...
                The training of the regiments of the ARGK is mediocre, with the exception of 311 popes and 318 hap RGKs, whose training is poor. "
                © Ulanov
                1. +1
                  16 July 2018 12: 21
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  The main fault of Stalin is that sometimes he put key people at the key positions who were not trained and unable to perform functional duties.
                  Personnel hunger, however ...


                  Just wonder where the personnel shortage came from - how many commanders, divisional commanders were repressed 1935-1945:
                  Marshals - 4 people
                  1st rank commanders - 5 people
                  2st rank commanders - 10 people
                  Comcor - 59 people (!!!)
                  Divisional commanders - 158 people (!!!)
                  Kombrigi - 337 people (!!!)
                  Most were shot, the vast majority - illegally and innocently - only a few people survived and were returned to the army during the war.

                  Paranoid - killed the military personnel, hence the personnel shortage of a higher com staff, failures (the new ones did not know how to fight and learned along the way), the fear of taking the initiative.
                  1. +2
                    16 July 2018 13: 09
                    Quote: DimerVladimer
                    Most shot, the vast majority - illegally and innocently

                    A delusional repetition is given of battered liberal myths.
                    Quote: DimerVladimer
                    Paranoid - killed the military personnel, hence the personnel shortage of a higher com staff, failures (the new ones did not know how to fight and learned along the way), the fear of taking the initiative.

                    Another exhaust of liberal lies.
                    Tell me, my dearest. How, when deploying the Army from 500000 to 3,5 million, to maintain at least the original level of combat training?
                    Second, where do you get your "truthful" information about the innocent whitewashed and polls "brilliant" commanders?
                    Maybe you shouldn’t lie, now it’s not the beginning of 90. when all this linden still had some significance.
                    Now let's turn to the primary sources. 19.09.1938/6/1937, Colonel Shiryaev, Head of the 1938th Division of the UKNS (Office of command and commanding officers) of the Red Army, presented to the Deputy People’s Commissar of Defense E.A. Shchadenko a certificate on the number of commanders dismissed from the ranks of the Red Army from the beginning of 37 to September 837 of the year. The document is stored in the RGVA, fund 10, inventory 142, case 93, sheet 1993. This document was published in the Military History Journal for 1. No. 56. p. 1937. It states: in 20 643 people were laid off, in 1938 16 people were laid off. The sum of these numbers is 118. This is where the legend of the shot 36 thousand came from.
                    http://ruspolitica.ru/post/mif-o-repressiyah-v-kr
                    asnoy-armii /
                    1. +1
                      17 July 2018 10: 24
                      Quote: The Swordsman

                      A delusional repetition is given of battered liberal myths.


                      This is not a myth - this is the sad truth about the purges in the army and lists by name who, where and when shot or served or rehabilitated
                      read for yourself if there is anything to refute Mr. Negator:
                      Pay attention to 114 surnames in the list - who were once repressed and returned to the army

                      repressed comcor (1937-1938)
                      1 Alafuzo, Mikhail Ivanovich
                      2 Appoga, Ernest Fritsevich
                      3 Bazilevich, Georgy Dmitrievich
                      4 Batorsky, Mikhail Alexandrovich
                      5 Bogomyagkov, Stepan Nikolaevich
                      6 Bondar, Georgy Iosifovich
                      7 Bryansky, Pyotr Alekseevich
                      8 Weiner, Leonid Yakovlevich
                      9 Vasilenko, Matvei Ivanovich
                      10 Voskanov, Gaspar Karapetovich
                      11 Gailit, Jan Petrovich
                      12 Garkavy, Ilya Ivanovich
                      13 Gekker, Anatoly Ilyich
                      14 Germanovich, Markian Yakovlevich
                      15 Gittis, Vladimir Mikhailovich
                      16 Gorbachev, Boris Sergeevich
                      17 Gribov, Sergey Efimovich
                      18 Gryaznov, Ivan Kensorinovich
                      19 Efimov, Nikolai Alekseevich
                      20 Zonberg, Jean Fritsevich
                      21 Ingaunis, Felix Antonovich
                      22 Kalmykov, Mikhail Vasilievich
                      23 Kovtyukh, Epifan Iovich
                      24 Kosogov, Ivan Dmitrievich
                      25 Krivoruchko, Nikolai Nikolaevich
                      26 Kuibyshev, Nikolai Vladimirovich
                      27 Kutyakov, Ivan Semyonovich
                      28 Lavrov, Vasily Konstantinovich
                      29 Lapin, Albert Yanovich
                      30 Levichev, Vasily Nikolaevich
                      31 Lepin, Eduard Davydovich
                      32 Lisovsky, Nikolai Vasilyevich
                      33 Longva, Roman Voitsekhovich
                      34 Mager, Maxim Petrovich
                      35 Mezheninov, Sergei Alexandrovich
                      36 Mulin, Valentin Mikhailovich
                      37 Neiman, Konstantin Avgustovich
                      38 Petin, Nikolai Nikolaevich
                      39 Primakov, Vitaly Markovich
                      40 Pugachev, Semyon Andreevich
                      41 Putna, Vitovt Kazimirovich
                      42 Sazontov, Andrey Yakovlevich
                      43 Sangursky, Mikhail Vladimirovich
                      44 Smolin, Ivan Ivanovich
                      45 Sokolov, Vladimir Nikolaevich
                      46 Stepanov, Maxim Osipovich
                      47 Storozhenko, Alexey Alekseevich
                      48 Stutska, Kirill Andreevich
                      49 Tkachev, Ivan Fedorovich
                      50 Todorsky, Alexander Ivanovich
                      51 Turovsky, Semyon Abramovich
                      52 Ugryumov, Leonty Yakovlevich
                      53 Uritsky, Semyon Petrovich
                      54 Feldman, Boris Mironovich
                      55 Fesenko, Dmitry Semyonovich
                      56 Khakhanyan, Grigory Davidovich
                      57 Khripin, Vasily Vladimirovich
                      58 Tchaikovsky, Kasyan Alexandrovich
                      59 Eideman, Robert Petrovich

                      divisional commanders (most repressed 1937-1940)
                      1 Alksnis, Jan Yanovich
                      2 Anders, Alexander Pavlovich
                      3 Andriyashev, Leonid Prokofievich
                      4 Aplock, Yuri Yurievich
                      5 Artyomenko, Nikolai Filippovich
                      6 Artemiev, Konstantin Petrovich
                      7 Atoyan, Akop Tatevosovich
                      8 Bazhanov, Nikolai Nikolaevich
                      9 Bazenkov, Boris Ilyich
                      10 Bakshi, Mikhail Markovich
                      11 Balakirev, Alexey Fedorovich
                      12 Bakhrushin, Alexander Mikhailovich
                      13 Belitsky, Semyon Markovich
                      14 Bely, Semyon Osipovich
                      15 Bergolts, August Ivanovich
                      16 Bergstrom, Walter Karlovich
                      17 Blazhevich, Joseph Frantsevich
                      18 Blumberg, Jean Karlovich
                      19 Bobrov, Boris Iosifovich
                      20 Bobrov, Nikolai Mikhailovich
                      21 Bokis, Gustav Gustavovich
                      22 Borisenko, Anton Nikolaevich
                      23 Buachidze, Fedor Moiseevich
                      24 Bukshtynovich, Mikhail Fomich
                      25 Butyrsky, Vasily Petrovich
                      26 Vakulich, Pavel Ivanovich
                      27 Vasentsovich, Vladislav Konstantinovich
                      28 Vasilevich, Ivan Ivanovich
                      29 Vasiliev, Fedor Vasilievich
                      30 Vasilchenko, Nikolai Nikolaevich
                      31 Vezirov, Gambay Mammad ogly
                      32 Ventsov-Krantz, Semyon Ivanovich
                      33 Volpe, Abram Mironovich
                      34 Vorozheykin, Grigory Alekseevich
                      35 Garf, Wilhelm Evgenievich
                      36 Georgadze, Valerian Pavlovich
                      37 Hermonius, Vadim Eduardovich
                      38 Glukhov, Mikhail Ivanovich
                      39 Golovkin, Vasily Grigorievich
                      40 Gonin, Vasily Matveevich
                      41 Gorbunov, Mikhail Alekseevich
                      42 Grigoriev, Pyotr Petrovich
                      43 Grushetsky, Vladislav Florianovich
                      44 Davidovsky, Yakov Lvovich
                      45 Danenberg, Evgeny Evgenievich
                      46 Demichev, Mikhail Afanasevich
                      47 Derevtsov, Sergei Ivanovich
                      48 Dikalov, Evgeny Petrovich
                      49 Dobrovolsky, Viktor Petrovich
                      50 Eliseev, Alexey Borisovich
                      51 Zamilatsky, Grigory Savvich
                      52 Zinoviev, Ivan Zinovievich
                      53 Zyuz-Yakovenko, Yakov Ivanovich
                      54 Inno, Alexander Alexandrovich
                      55 Kazansky, Evgeny Sergeevich
                      56 Kalnin, Karl Ivanovich
                      57 Kapulovsky, Ivan Dmitrievich
                      58 Karklin, Ivan Ivanovich
                      59 Karpov, Mikhail Petrovich
                      60 Kassin, Grigory Iustinovich
                      61 Kaufeldt, Fedor Petrovich
                      62 Kwiatek, Kazimir Frantsevich
                      63 Kilvein, Georgy Yakovlevich
                      64 Klimovich, Antony Karpovich
                      65 Klysheiko, Franz Antonovich
                      66 Knyagnitsky, Pavel Efimovich
                      67 Kozhevnikov, Alexander Trofimovich
                      68 Kozitsky, Alexander Dmitrievich
                      69 Korolev, Dmitry Karpovich
                      70 Kotov, Nikolai Yakovlevich
                      71 Kokhansky, Vladislav Stanislavovich
                      72 Kraft, Eduard Eduardovich
                      73 Kruchinkin, Nikolai Kuzmich
                      74 Kuleshov, Alexander Demyanovich
                      75 Kutateladze, Georgy Nikolaevich
                      76 Kuchinsky, Dmitry Alexandrovich
                      77 Lazarevich, Vladimir Salamanovich
                      78 Lapin, Vasily Konstantinovich
                      79 Laur, Jean Ivanovich
                      80 Lepin, Andrei Genrikhovich
                      81 Litvinov, Nikolai Nikolaevich
                      82 Lopatin, Vsevolod Nikolaevich
                      83 Lukirsky, Sergei Georgievich
                      84 Magon, Erman Yakovlevich
                      85 Maksimov, Ivan Fedorovich
                      86 Malofeev, Vasily Ivanovich
                      87 Malyshev, Alexander Kuzmich
                      88 Maslov, Konstantin Vasilievich
                      89 Mednikov, Mikhail Lazarevich
                      90 Melik-Shakhnazarov, Andrey Pavlovich
                      91 Melkumov, Yakov Arkadievich
                      92 Murzin, Dmitry Konstantinovich
                      93 Nikitin, Semyon Vasilievich
                      94 Nikiforov, Leonid Ivanovich
                      95 Nikonov, Alexander Matveevich
                      96 Ovchinnikov, Georgy Ivanovich
                      97 Olshansky, Mikhail Mikhailovich
                      98 Olshevsky, Faddey Ivanovich
                      99 Onufriev, Ivan Andreevich
                      100 Orlov, Alexander Grigorievich
                      101 Pavlov, Alexander Vasilievich
                      102 Panin, Ivan Vasilyevich
                      103 Pashkovsky, Konstantin Kazimirovich
                      104 Peremytov, Alexey Makarovich
                      105 Poga, Jean Yanovich
                      106 Pogrebnoy, Vasily Semyonovich
                      107 Podlas, Kuzma Petrovich
                      108 Pocus, Yakov Zakharovich
                      109 Rakitin, Nikolai Vasilievich
                      110 Raudmets, Ivan Ivanovich
                      111 Rink, Ivan Alexandrovich
                      112 Rogalev, Fedor Fedorovich
                      113 Rogovsky, Nikolai Mikhailovich
                      114 Rokossovsky, Konstantin Konstantinovich
                      115 Rohi, William Yurievich
                      116 Rubinov, Yakov Grigorievich
                      117 Sablin, Yuri Vladimirovich
                      118 Savitsky, Sergei Mikhailovich
                      119 Svechin, Alexander Andreevich
                      120 Semenov, Nikolai Grigorievich
                      121 Sergeev, Evgeny Nikolaevich
                      122 Sergeev, Ivan Pavlovich
                      123 Serdich, Daniil Fedorovich
                      124 Sidorenko, Vladimir Semyonovich
                      125 Sokolov-Sokolovsky, Pyotr Lukich
                      126 Sokolov, Fedor Georgievich
                      127 Spilnichenko, Semyon Avvakumovich
                      128 Stepnoy-Spizharny, Konstantin Ivanovich
                      129 Stigga, Oscar Ansovich
                      130 Suprun, Kuzma Kharitonovich
                      131 Talkovsky, Alexander Alexandrovich
                      132 Tarasenko, Vladimir Vasilievich
                      133 Tarasov, Anatoly Ivanovich
                      134 Testov, Semyon Vasilyevich
                      135 Tkalun, Pyotr Pakhomovich
                      136 Tochenov, Nikolai Ivanovich
                      137 Trizna, Dmitry Dmitrievich
                      138 Turzhansky, Alexander Alexandrovich
                      139 Tukhareli, Georgy Alexandrovich
                      140 Uvarov, Nikolai Mikhailovich
                      141 Ushakov, Konstantin Petrovich
                      142 Fedotov, Anatoly Vasilievich
                      143 Firsov, Dmitry Sergeevich
                      144 Florovsky, Ivan Danilovich
                      145 Khoroshilov, Ivan Yakovlevich
                      146 Tsvetaev, Vyacheslav Dmitrievich
                      147 Chanyshev, Yakub Dzhangirovich
                      148 Chernobrovkin, Sergey Alekseevich
                      149 Chernyshev, Viktor Nikolaevich
                      150 Shalimo, Mikhail Nikolaevich
                      151 Sharskov, Ivan Fedorovich
                      152 Sheko, Yakov Vasilyevich
                      153 Wide, Ivan Fedorovich
                      154 Schmidt, Dmitry Arkadievich
                      155 Shcheglov, Nikolai Vladimirovich
                      156 Elfert, Jan Yanovich
                      157 Yushkevich, Vasily Alexandrovich
                      158 Yakubov, Rose Abdullaevich

                      And I can lay out 337 names of brigade commanders repressed from 1937 to 1945.

                      You can deny the obvious. But for each of the repressed, a commission worked, including the Moscow Region and 99% rehabilitated
                      You can’t cross out from history a puffy paranoid.
                      1. +1
                        18 July 2018 14: 18
                        Quote: DimerVladimer
                        You can deny the obvious.

                        The obvious what? The obvious suppression of the conspiracy in the army? Unopened roots in June 1941 handed over the front at times. So that they were underworked in the NKVD ..
                        Study why .com Air Force PribVO, Ionov put to the wall.
                        It’s obvious that they cleared a bunch of quasi-war Trotskyites, so to speak? And what? They turned out to be right.
                        With careful attention to the numbers indicated in the table from the archive of the Head Office of the Red Army Personnel as of January 1, 1941, hardly anyone will be able to avoid deeply perplexed amazement. The figures openly indicate that 94% of the 8425 battalion commanders had secondary and higher education ?! Yes, formally, 2% with an academic education seems to be not enough, but the whole point here is that it is not the number that is important, but the fact - the academic education began to penetrate the level of combatants! Before the "defeat of military personnel" this was not the case! How not to be amazed if out of 1833 regiment commanders, in fact, two-thirds had academies and schools (14% - academies and 60% - schools) and only 26% - accelerated courses ?! How not to be amazed at the fact that 52% of corps commanders had an academic education, and secondary - 48%, or, for example, that 100% of division and brigade commanders had higher (academic) and secondary education ?! How not to boil with indignation at the lie that, as a result of the repressions, there were no commanders with experience remaining in the Red Army, if 91% of battalion commanders, 100% of regiment, brigade, divisions and corps commanders had experience in the range of 15 to 20 years or more ?! Pay special attention to the fact that 21% of corps commanders, 96% of division and brigade commanders, 82% of regiment commanders had experience of 50 years or more. But from 1937 to June 22, 1941 the number of the Red Army increased by 3,75 times - from 1,433 million people. up to 5,373 million people.
                        So enough for you to re-engage in rotten myths.

                        During the so-called period of "cruel repression" against the command staff of the Red Army, a total of 36 people were laid off. The same figure is in the book "Military Personnel of the Soviet Union in the Great Patriotic War" (M., 898). Note that under Stalin no one hid this figure. The attentive researcher will find the same number in the archives -
                        RGVA, f. 3783, op. 19, d. 87, l. 4 2–5 2; RGVA, f.37837, op. 18, d.890, l. 4–7.
                        Please note that this figure covers the number of those dismissed, not repressed, and even more so not executed.
                        However, this figure is 36. - covers the period not from 898-1937, but from January 1938, 1 to May 1937, 1, that is, for almost three and a half years! Of these, the dismissal of 1940 people. accounted for by the so-called natural decline. They were fired due to:
                        a) death - unfortunately, no one has yet been able to cancel it;
                        b) diseases that are incompatible with the military service, as well as disability - unfortunately, and this is often the case,
                        nobody has been able to insure yet;
                        c) reaching the age limit - alas, but the laws of life, moreover, no one succeeded in repealing;
                        d) moral decay - to my deepest regret, in our army, as, indeed, in Russia in general, they get drunk, hooligans, including with grave consequences, and also steal under any regimes and forms of government. Not to mention other “arts” that were punishable at all times. According to the paragraphs "a", "b" and "c" the grounds for the specified period 4165 people were dismissed, for the reason specified in paragraph "g" - 4048 people. (see archive confirmation above). At the same time, the dismissal of 6692 of 8213 people. happened in the period 1937-1938 https: //profilib.net/chtenie/42124/arsen-marti
                        rosyan-stalin-i-repressii-1920-kh-1930-kh-gg-83.p
                        hp
                        “I fully confirm my testimony given during the preliminary investigation about my leading participation in the Trotskyite conspiracy, about my ties with the Germans, about my past participation in various anti-Soviet groups. I plead guilty to the fact that I reported to German intelligence secret information regarding the defense of the USSR. I also confirm my ties with Trotsky and Dombal. The tasks of the military conspiracy were to carry out instructions from the Trotskyists and the right to overthrow the Soviet power. I am also guilty of preparing the defeat of the Red Army and the USSR in the war, that is treason, I developed a plan for organizing defeat in the war ... I plead guilty that I was actually an agent of German intelligence after 1932. Also, I am guilty of counter-revolutionary ties with Yenukidze as part of the military-Trotsky plot. me, there were Yakir, Uborevich, Eideman, Feldman, S. S. Kamenev and Gamarnik. Primakov was also close to him. I do not have action. Tukhachevsky ". [54]"
                        What fabrications are there?
              2. +1
                14 July 2018 02: 11
                Well, Zhukov’s career is all right. He went sequentially through all the steps of this ladder. And he did not command the brigade in 1939, but in 1930, and he was appointed not the commander of the brigade, but from the position of deputy commander of the district, and after the victory at Khalkhin Gol.
                since 1923 - regiment commander.
                1924-1925 Courses at the Higher Cavalry School.
                Since 1926 he has been teaching military training at the Belarusian State University.
                in 1929 he graduated from the courses of the highest commanding staff of the Red Army.
                in 1930 commanded a cavalry brigade.
                since 1931 - assistant to the cavalry inspector of the Red Army.
                since 1933 commander of the cavalry division in the Western Military District Command
                Since 1937, the commander of the cavalry corps.
                since 1938, Deputy Commander of the Western PSB.
                In 1939 he was sent with an inspection to Khalkhin Gol. And there, according to the results of the inspection, he is assigned to command the 57th special army corps of the Red Army.
                After Khalkhin-Gol in 1940, he was appointed in 1940 and was appointed commander of the forces of the Kiev Special Military District. Here he commands the liberation campaign of the Red Army - the liberation of Bessarabia and Bukovina.
                January 1941 was appointed to the post of chief of the General Staff of the Red Army.
                Thus, Zhukov had both education and the experience of commanding associations of troops not only in peaceful conditions, but also during active hostilities.
                And further. You repeated the idea that Zhukov could not be appointed chief of the General Staff. Let's say that this is so. But now, after so many years, you know well who should be appointed to this position. And what prevents you from revealing this secret. Surname in the studio !!! Surname of the Chief of the General Staff for 1940.
                1. +3
                  14 July 2018 19: 29
                  Quote: Michael28
                  Thus, Zhukov had both education and the experience of commanding associations of troops not only in peaceful conditions, but also during active hostilities.

                  The problem is that the GKZh had experience in teamwork. Not the staff, but the command. And these are two different things.
                  The GKZh was good when it was necessary at all costs to obtain from the performers the exact fulfillment of already developed plans. But in terms of painstaking and thorough paper work to develop these very plans ...
                  He cannot be appointed to staff and teaching work - he organically hates her.
                  © Rokossovsky - from certification on Zhukov
                  A similar mistake was the appointment of a typical technician and production worker Kulik to the command post - he would have brought much more benefits in the rear, doing his favorite thing to prevent the appearance of weapons in the Red Army that differs from the TK or has not passed the tests. The same ZIS-3 Kulik did not immediately allow to put into the series not because of the natural stupidity, but because the first sample presented had too low VHF (inherited from the PT guns) and did not pass military tests. And without them, it was impossible to launch a tool into production - the orgy of the 30s was too memorable, when the army received what it was impossible to fight.
                  Quote: Michael28
                  But now, after so many years, you know well who should be appointed to this position. And what prevents you from revealing this secret. Surname in the studio !!! Surname of the Chief of the General Staff for 1940.

                  It was possible to leave Shaposhnikov. Or to appoint the former chief of staff of MBO and associate professor of the Academy Frunze Antonov. Was the head of the Operations Department of the General Staff Vatutin. There was the first deputy chief of the Operations Department of the General Staff Vasilevsky. In short, the options were ...
                2. 0
                  16 July 2018 12: 56
                  Quote: Michael28
                  January 1941 was appointed to the post of chief of the General Staff of the Red Army.
                  Thus, Zhukov had both education and the experience of commanding associations of troops not only in peaceful conditions, but also during active hostilities.


                  Only the START OF THE GENERAL STAFF is a position for a person with a vocation - the color of the military is selected for such positions - the most talented analysts and geniuses with the highest military education, who Zhukov was not and ultimately failed the work of the General Staff before the war.
                  Here's an example of an interview with General Staff M. Khodarenok
                  Is it possible to prepare a commander, say, within the walls of the Military Academy of the General Staff?

                  http://radiovesti.ru/brand/61009/episode/1373712/
                  and he has the same: General Staff Officer - piece goods
                  in the same place to lead fm
                3. +1
                  16 July 2018 13: 07
                  Quote: Michael28
                  Well, Zhukov’s career is all right. He went sequentially through all the steps of this ladder. And he did not command the brigade in 1939, but in 1930, and he was appointed not the commander of the brigade, but from the position of deputy commander of the district, and after the victory at Khalkhin Gol.


                  Mikhail Khodarenok - Shield and Sword of our Motherland
                  Read for the sake of curiosity: in Zhukov’s memoirs, he is caught on embellishments, fictions and outright falsifications.
                  https://profilib.net/chtenie/56217/mikhail-khodar
                  enok-schit-i-mech-our-rodiny-43.php
                4. +1
                  17 July 2018 10: 35
                  No. p / p Category of the highest command staff of the Red Army Served in the Red Army in 1936

                  Who else so actively destroyed the cadre of higher military personnel? In which country?
                  1. +1
                    18 July 2018 14: 22
                    Quote: DimerVladimer
                    destroyed

                    The nonsense repeated a thousand times does not become true. And you should read something other than the chatter of the Rezun-Solzhenitsyn.
                    " Only in
                    an inflamed brain, blinded by hatred, of anti-Soviet activists, there could be an “assertion” that allegedly in this Order No. 00447 of 1937 the quotas for repressions were taken, so to speak, “from the ceiling”. In fact, behind each indicated figure in this document are data from operational developments by human rights bodies. As evidence, let's get back to the numbers:
                    Voronezh region in the first category - 1000, in the second - 3500; Ivanovskaya - 750 and 2000 people, respectively. We repeat ... “All repressed fists, criminals, and other anti-Soviet elements are divided into two categories: a) the first category includes all the most hostile of the above elements. They are subject to immediate arrest and, upon consideration of their cases on threes, to SHOT. b) the second category includes all other less active, but still hostile elements. They are subject to arrest and imprisonment in camps for a term of 8 to 10 years, and the most malicious and socially dangerous of them, imprisonment for the same terms in prisons by definition of the troika. ” Think for yourself now ... is it possible that with the total number of about a million people living in each region, there were no 1000 malicious enemies of Soviet power ?! And if it wasn’t, then where did the tens of thousands of policemen, burgomaster and voluntary ministers of the Gestapo come from in the same Voronezh region after the so-called “Stalinist repressions” during the fascist occupation? "https://egor-23.livejournal.com/318312.html
                    Can you answer something intelligible, except for the words that smell of mothballs and hate against I. Stalin and the USSR as a whole? Or are you all these policemen, elders, traitors of all kinds, close morally and spiritually?
              3. -1
                3 September 2018 21: 48
                From the 21 century it is easy to defeat the Germans.
      2. +8
        12 July 2018 20: 17
        Quote: hohol95
        Bid ...

        At the time of the Bet’s order, the situation was completely different from July 12th. The area of ​​the planned deployment of 5 guards. The TA was still ours - and no advance was foreseen along the terrain compressed by beams and ravines with the battalion-free entry of the hulls into battle.
        For some reason, Katukov in a similar situation was able to defend his point of view.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. +3
            13 July 2018 15: 13
            Quote: hohol95
            Rotmistrov or Katukov - one was given an order and then it was canceled, another order was not canceled ...

            Katukov’s order was canceled for a reason - but after a telephone conversation between Katukov and Stalin, in which the commander of 1 TA doubted the expediency of a counterattack and offered to act on defense. Moreover, at first Katukov was going to discuss with Vatutin.
            1. 0
              13 July 2018 15: 24
              "fault" of the temporary detention center or the State Housing Committee, or other "marshals of Victory" -
              -who says to himself, "I did everything right on the road this weekend" ???????????

              Now --- Fri, 15-22, go on vacation!
              and introspection here, on the site, in the PND on the observance of traffic rules and politeness, it is possible about the extra 100 grams (or will everything be in moderation?)
  5. +17
    12 July 2018 07: 02
    ... when, due to ambitions or inept leadership of the troops, thousands of Soviet tankers paid their lives ...

    The next passage in the style of “as the governesses all the time defeated the Lapotniks, but for some reason, they completely lost the Battle of Kursk and the war as a whole?”
    The Soviet command did not know the operational situation that prevailed at night before the counterattack, as well as how the enemy was entrenched at the achieved lines. Branched Intelligence Not Conducted

    Will there be a link to combat documents?
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +19
      12 July 2018 08: 42
      Quote: Moore
      The next passage in the style of “as the governesses all the time defeated the Lapotniks, but for some reason, they completely lost the Battle of Kursk and the war as a whole?”

      Oh, let's not drag coconut patriotism and other politics into this topic.
      Grandfather, a direct participant, said that until the end of the war, the "command" level of the Nazi was much higher than ours. At least to the level of the regiment inclusive. And ours "left" due to the traditionally high moral and volitional qualities, readiness to tear the enemy with his teeth. Well, and no, but the combat experience that had already appeared by this time (The level of commanding training and combat experience should not be confused here. They can complement each other perfectly, but are unable to replace)

      ====
      In general, the problem of the level of training of commanders existed unequivocally
      Some Svanidze blame everything on the "bloody Stalinist regime, which destroyed the brilliant commanders before the war." But Hassan and Khalkhin-Gol did not show any special “genius”.
      In real life, this was a consequence of the huge losses of the first period of the war. There were catastrophically few trained commanders, and for the most part they died or were lost in captivity. And the consequences of this dragged on until the end of the war.
      After all, it was not in vain that the USSR was so seriously concerned about the creation of a commander’s mobre reserve — pure “work on mistakes”
      1. +10
        12 July 2018 10: 43
        Quote: Spade
        Oh, let's not drag coconut patriotism and other politics into this topic.

        Where is kokoshny patriotism here, is it popular, scanty and marsh?
        The level of commanding personnel is that of the Red Army, that of the Wehrmacht ranged on a scale of 2 to 5. In the described battle, decisions of the operational level were not made by regiment commanders — by confrontations and commanders. Regiment commanders gave their orders for the offensive (defense) on the basis of higher ones.
        Therefore, everyone is given the opportunity to play the role of Vasilevsky, for example, and on the basis of the enemy’s data on him, the availability of real forces and means in July 1943 to solve this simple strategic task: just defeat the German troops on the allotted plot.
      2. +21
        12 July 2018 11: 06
        Quote: Spade
        In real life, this was a consequence of the huge losses of the first period of the war.

        Not only. At 1941, almost all the commanders of armies and army groups of the Germans were hereditary soldiers who had already gone through World War I as chiefs of staff of divisions, armies, some commanded a regiment or division. Then they commanded armies and army groups in Poland, France, Northern Europe and the Balkans. With this gigantic experience in managing large-scale masses of troops, they approached the 22 of June. We add also an excellent general education and the broadest horizons in many areas of life that these "backgrounds" had since Kaiser Germany.
        At the same time, our people in similar positions had people (for the most part, there were exceptions like Sobennikov or Shaposhnikov) who fought in the First World War as warrant officers or rank-and-file, or even without combat experience of WWII. All of them were 10 by age younger than years; they did not have any experience in command and control on the scale and quantities that were needed in the Second World War. Their general education, as a rule, was very primitive - worker-peasant. Plus, many commanders were essentially upstarts appointed to the post of commander of a district or army from some teaching position (for example, Kuznetsov F.I.) The old tsarist officers could be counted on the fingers, and the problem here was not only that they were wiped out by the civil war ( which was not in Germany), and not only in repressions (which also seriously reduced the number of experienced experienced commanders of the imperial school), but also simply aged. Many royal officers were too old to command troops. And of course, our traditional thing is to appoint devotees and not the best, for example, on a class basis, because this also had a place to be.
        That's all in a complex and led us to the position in which we found ourselves. During the interwar period, just as they would not try, they would not be able to bring up such a high-quality officer corps in the USSR as in Germany. There was nowhere for him to come from. And those people that were fighting. You can not consider them illiterate or villains. They had such a share, they learned to command on the go. Who survived gained experience and in the 44-45-xx they already gave the Germans heat.
        1. +10
          12 July 2018 12: 44
          Quote: Alex_59
          Not only. In 1941, almost all the commanders of armies and army groups of the Germans were hereditary soldiers who had already passed the First World War in positions

          Debatable. The British and French also had a lot of "hereditary", but they somehow did not really show themselves.
          1. +3
            12 July 2018 12: 59
            Quote: Spade
            Debatable. The British and French also had a lot of "hereditary", but they somehow did not really show themselves.

            I join, the experience of the First World War was trench, and the Second World War was a war of motors. By the way, Goering, just at the head of the Luftwaffe, put the young commanders who had gone through the school of war in Spain - Galland and Melders, instead of his old comrades, veteran aces of the First World War, explaining this with outdated views on waging war in the air
            1. +4
              12 July 2018 15: 43
              Quote: Stirbjorn
              I join, the experience of the First World War was trench, and the Second World War was a war of motors.

              There is another question. If a German served the entire PMV as the chief of staff of the army, then for him it is an invaluable experience in organizing and planning military operations, and in ensuring them. What and how to provide for trifles (the devil is hiding in little things). And then, when this German, with this experience, becomes the commander of an army group, his past headquarters experience, the ability to think strategically, plan, see a map, understand the enemy’s plan on it, think for the enemy, calculate moves - it's just gold. Now let him have tanks, not horse carts, let everything happen faster and faster. But the principles are the same. Anyway, you need to think about how and what to do, how to provide people, where to support, where what needs to be adjusted, how to organize the work of subordinates, what tasks to solve yourself, and what to entrust to others, what needs to be done immediately and what is secondary. This is all the professionalism of the commander. And he had German key commanders.
              And what is our experience, if he served as ensign in the PMV for a year? How will this experience come in handy as a front commander? Useful of course, but not to the same extent. Unless understanding the needs of an ordinary soldier, knowing what hardships and hardships he has, what psychology. But for com. front it is all secondary. And the knowledge that he needs in the first place is only in theory. Taught at the academy. Commanded in peacetime. That being said, two big differences.
              1. +5
                12 July 2018 19: 56
                And then, when this German, with this experience, becomes the commander of an army group, his past headquarters experience, the ability to think strategically, plan, see a map, understand the enemy’s plan on it, think for the enemy, calculate moves - it's just gold.

                These are the Fritz we defeated. Counting moves, thinking, to the limit of formalized. The Germans have one pattern: a strike in the joint between the parts, bypassing, then reaching and surrounding. And so from a platoon to an army. Recalling the recollection of the war veterans: "Morning, the German had breakfast, now he will start to fight. And exactly the first shot at 9.00." When this was understood, then the Fritz and the kayuk came.
                And we have none of the more than 20 strategic operations. Not a single one! There were always surprises to the enemy.
                At the tactical level, the Germans excelled by the same stereotypes, honed to the smallest detail. A platoon was prescribed when confronting an adversary: ​​the 1 squad defended in place, the 2 squad bypassed on the right, 3 squad covered on the left. Everything is honed and rehearsed dozens of times. It is difficult to resist them, but they learned and began to beat them.
                According to the age. On the one hand, German generals are experienced, they are 60-65 years old. And ours at the end of the war all 40-45. But youth won, the Germans could not stand the physical strain of the war of motors.
          2. +2
            12 July 2018 14: 12
            Quote: Spade
            Controversial.

            I don’t see anything controversial. I just described one of the factors. Not the only one.
            In addition to the different level of training of the commanders, much more matters. Why didn’t the French come up with a topic for a separate study, I think that although there were commanders with a lot of experience, this alone is not enough. And in our particular case of the Second World War, the low level of command became one of the additional factors that aggravated the difficult course of the war, especially at the beginning. Keywords - ONE OF.
            If ours had all the time “hereditary” ones, but at the same time there wouldn’t be the rest (for example, industry that had been raised during the years of industrialization), we would be eaten like the French in one sitting.
            Do not take my words about the different levels of command as an attempt to explain all our defeats and difficulties with this. This is one of many factors.
            1. +2
              12 July 2018 17: 32
              Come on, the First World War was the butchers. A "successful" auxiliary strike under Arras, "Birth of a Nation." 14 thousand Canadians, 3.5-odd thousand killed, 7-odd thousand wounded, rain from awards and stars on shoulder straps. Quintessence of the "First World Experience"
              1. +1
                12 July 2018 17: 46
                this was “torn” in the WWII — the reason for surrendering 40 g — demographically, under the Germans they went to save the number of the nation (by 1920 it was decided “we don’t want to die again in that number”)
        2. -1
          3 September 2018 21: 53
          Good words! Great Fate fell to them! And everyone fought as he could. The main thing is that they won! But we need to look at ourselves - whether we were the Great Union, and now we are fighting with each other, a cat worth more than a pension - a military one or a jacket. That's how it is somehow.
      3. +12
        12 July 2018 11: 08
        I don’t know at what level your grandfather compared the level of command of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht, however if it were like you say nothing would not shine for us at all! We would not have had enough human reserves given the fact that the whole of Europe obligingly supplied them to the whole of Europe, and the military might of Germany, as they contributed ... Including the Allies by the way! The main role in the defeats, especially in the first year of the war and agrarian losses, was played by the political miscalculations of the leadership of the USSR, which of course was compensated by the heroism of ordinary soldiers and now, just by the competent actions of the commanders to the regiment and to the motto ... This first year came to us for a long time putting us at a completely disadvantageous the situation is completely inconsistent with Soviet military doctrine simply by the fact that it was more political than military!
        These miscalculations were corrected by the commanders of the Red Army and this was not their fault! My grandfather, a Siberian tankman, fought from the very first days of the war as a very young guy! After his tank was hit, he fought in the infantry. Was injured. And here he was just telling how the soldiers, including the junior commanders, were cherished. Always said, the commander is life for a soldier!
        1. +10
          12 July 2018 11: 25
          Quote: Oper
          The main role in the defeats, especially the first year of the war and agrarian losses, was played by the political miscalculations of the leadership of the USSR

          The "political miscalculations" are by no means pulled into the main role. They were miscalculations. But I’m sure at 100% that if the country was governed by other politicians in the interwar period, then from the situation in which they adopted the country at the beginning of the 20's, nothing could be done better than what was actually done - it would not have worked. Everything would be exactly the same or worse. There were no people with experience and knowledge similar to the Germans! And to prepare people with such experience and knowledge is not a question of money or drill. This is necessary for years, and years of practice. If you have only former peasants and workers, then you need to grow specialists and professionals from them for a long time. It doesn’t happen that you are “in the air” - and you are an excellent front commander. This must be given to people to really go through all the steps, so that they learn to manage both the company and the regiment, and the division. And it is desirable in reality (as the Germans had with Poland or France). No Finnish or Hassan can be compared here. It is necessary for years of knowledge to accumulate, hammer, teach, practice.
          Right now, of course, you can start screaming that they have ruined the country, and that the civil war is the fault of these same politicians (which is debatable by the way). Well you can, yes. But imagine that they gave you the finished - the USSR of the 1922 model of the year. Try for 20 years, build a power similar to Germany in terms of technology, industry, knowledge, professionalism of people. From the ash. Yeah, shchazz ... What could they do - with mistakes, excesses, jambs (and who knows in advance how to do it? Is everything right now?).
        2. +3
          12 July 2018 12: 54
          Quote: Oper
          however, if that were the way you say nothing would not shine for us at all! We would not have had enough human reserves

          So enough ...
          Oh, I’ll try easier.
          There is a carpenter who has finished, for example, a trip. OK, finished. He has a strong theoretical background, has some skills and abilities. Practice zero.
          There is a carpenter who was pulled out of the street, given a planer, a chisel and a mallet in his hands and set a task. He gained experience, but theor. the base is weak.
          There is a carpenter who graduated from the hitch, and worked for N years in the specialty.
          The Germans are a carpenter of the third type. Ours is the second, because our first type, which could turn into the third type, were knocked out in the initial period of the war.
          1. +6
            12 July 2018 13: 24
            Well let’s and I’ll try it easier, gentlemen Lopatov and Alex, I don’t argue with you at all.) I’m saying that the military doctrine itself was politicized to the limit, we will fight in someone else’s territory! All! And try to say that it will not be so ... Further, this resulted in combat training and much more. Even weapons. Was the country ready by June 22, 1941 and the army? No. And this political forgiveness entailed terrible consequences! Naturally, people simply got up to death and died detaining the enemy for at least a day, at least for some hours. And naturally, many military personnel were knocked out in the 1st year of the war. But this is the political miscalculation of the leadership thanks to which the Red Army commanding staff was placed in completely unfavorable and not even familiar conditions for themselves! The leadership of the USSR did not think in such a way!
            1. +1
              12 July 2018 13: 52
              Quote: Oper
              I say that the military doctrine itself was politicized to the utmost
              This is the main reason why what happened in June 1941 of the year happened. We can cry out about our “not ready”, but the main reason is not the “weakness” of our army, and even not repression, which led to the loss of experienced commanders, but tying up any initiative, imposing political motives on the military, general illiterate leadership fighting from the Kremlin. Joseph Vissarionovich did not immediately draw the necessary conclusions, and as soon as he limited his amateurish intervention, entrusted the command to the military, not to politicians, our army began to win. Here, if the beginning of the war were not in 1941, but in the 1942 year, when the Germans would gain even more experience, they would subjugate even more material and human resources, rather, it would only be worse, until, again, it was Stalin who had the necessary experience. It is possible that if the war began in 1939 for us, when the Germans had not yet crushed the whole of Europe, the losses would have been less, due to the fact that Joseph Vissarionovich’s master class would have started earlier. As to the immediate "lack of experience," somehow we immediately forget about the entire history of the Russian army, which began much earlier than the appearance of the Red Army. To all, with 22.06.1941g. on 09.05.1945 in the ranks of the Red Army, the RKKF, the NKVD, the NKGB at different times (in various (combat and non-combat) positions, in different (command, political, etc.) structures, in the ranks from lieutenant to Marshal of the Soviet Union (and similar to them: “military engineer”, warlord ", etc.) served as 450 commanders who served in the old army and navy in the ranks of ensign to lieutenant-general (and similar to them naval). In more detail, "Gentlemen officers - comrades generals" Igor Semennikov (http://www.proza.ru/2014/04/12/1805)
              1. +3
                12 July 2018 14: 11
                History has no subjunctive mood. Reading your comment, you can conclude that the death of such a number of our troops and the Germans seizing agrarian territories with a population that the Nazis mocked is quite a regular process ?! Not only that, in your words, it turns out that if the war started even later it would be even worse?!?! I’m not saying that we had a bad army, on the contrary, the Russian army cannot be bad by definition! But the mediocre leadership of an army based on political insinuations is yes ... It happens! The German worker did not raise an uprising in Germany! A Russian soldier met this worker in the ranks of the Wehrmacht seeing him in the sight of a Mosin rifle! And this is one of the components of the political miscalculation of the leadership of the USSR! Where in the future and what role did the fast light-armored Soviet tanks with weak weapons play, which were supposed to famously jump over enemy trenches ?! How many were released ?! But this is not a doctrine ?! Our people achieved victory in this war in excess of exertion and shed blood! We had a good army. To the Red Army there can be no claims!
                1. +1
                  12 July 2018 14: 30
                  Quote: Oper
                  Reading your comment, you can come to the conclusion that the death of such a number of our servicemen and the seizure of agro-territories by the Germans with a population over which the fascists mocked a completely natural process ?!
                  No, not logical, you are contradicting yourself here, jumping from logic and common sense to hysterical patriotism. We had superiority over the Germans, both in 1939, and in 1941, by aircraft and tanks at times, and, most importantly, by mobilization resources. The failures of 1941, first of all political mistakes, the intervention of politicians in the actions of the military. Germany in the 1939 year generally had mainly light tanks and was not ready for war with the USSR, this required the power of the whole of Europe, and the milestone of the 1941 of the year, the optimum time for an attack. You yourself deny the subjunctive in history, but history is not an end in itself, but a ground for analysis, and it is impossible to draw correct conclusions for analysis without considering any possible options. It is very possible, as you noticed, that the politicization of military doctrine and general control of military operations, intervention in command, and when the war started later, for example, in the 1942 year, if the Germans had this benefit, for example, the promise of Japan’s entry into the war or Turkey, would have led to the same grave consequences in the preventive strike of the Germans and their allies. In any case, in 1939, the Germans would hardly have reached Moscow.
                2. +4
                  12 July 2018 16: 28
                  You and your opponents make one significant mistake. you are looking cause what happened, and this is not one reason but the whole complex. you speak of politicization, but the Germans also had an extremely politicized army.
                  in my opinion, the scale of the USSR played a much greater role, as it is not strange. in spite of the fact that the size of the Soviet army and the combined European forces were comparable, the Soviet troops were "smeared" not only along the entire border line but also deep into the country. this allowed the Nazis to achieve 3-7-fold superiority in offensive operations. serious problems were also identified with the logistics and management of such masses of troops. but it must be borne in mind that such large-scale hostilities have never been conducted before! how far the Germans were not ready for such a war, it became clear already at the end of 41. as for the leadership of the troops, it is worth noting that if the Soviet command quickly drew conclusions, the Germans seemed to ignore what was happening. Did failure near Moscow teach them something? no. and Stalingrad? no. and Kursk? Well, after Kursk it was already a rush to rush about ...
                  one of the vivid examples of the bone of German thinking is Rommel. he studied British tactics and his affairs went brilliantly. British generals are concentrated traditions. they did what Rommel expected from them. everything was good until Monty led the British, by the standards of the British headquarters - a complete loony. So what? Was Rommel able to oppose the British when they stopped acting according to the scheme?
                  I agree with you that it's silly to blame everything on the army, but no less silly to blame everything on headquarters.
                  1. +1
                    12 July 2018 17: 25
                    Quote: SanichSan
                    everything was good until Monty led the British, by the standards of the British headquarters - a complete loony. So what? Was Rommel able to oppose the British when they stopped acting according to the scheme?

                    When the British were led by Monti in Africa, the British accumulated forces that were twice the resources of Rommel. Maybe this also played a role?
                    1. 0
                      13 July 2018 17: 57
                      as I wrote above, the result is a product of many events. certainly and it played a role. but the British often sought numerical superiority, but victories weren’t very ...
                  2. +2
                    12 July 2018 17: 26
                    Quote: SanichSan
                    in my opinion, the scale of the USSR played a greater role, as it is not strange. in spite of the fact that the number of the Soviet army and the united European forces were comparable, the Soviet troops were "spread out" not only along the entire line of the border but also into the interior of the country. this allowed the fascists to achieve 3-7 multiple superiority in offensive operations
                    The scale of the USSR had to be taken into account by the Germans, especially since they had to move on foreign territory, often without accurate maps of the area, where instead of roads they received “directions” in reality. In the same Belarus, many places were impassable, and the possible direction of the invasion could well be calculated and stopped in advance. The attackers, in addition to everything, needed carts, supply of food, fuel, and ammunition. In addition, in the defense troops can more effectively than in the offensive, use the protective properties of the terrain and implement fortification equipment areas, positions, lines occupied by the troops. It is known that even the simplest engineering structures reduce losses in personnel and military equipment from enemy artillery fire from closed positions in 5-7 times. In addition, all firing means located in the respective fortifications are used 2-3 times more efficiently than similar means coming, which is often located and moves on the ground openly. We should not forget that we had multiple superiority in tanks and airplanes, and the human resources allowed us to practically make up for the losses that are unacceptable neither for Germany, nor for any other army in the world, where millions of newly-recruited soldiers are involved. It was the expanses of Russia that saved the country, whether Russia were the size of France or Spain combined, the war for us would have ended only on the territory by the autumn of 1941. Finally, speaking of complexity, there is always the main reason, and there are secondary ones, so the main reason is political mistakes, the intervention of amateurs in military affairs, both before the war and in its initial period. The fact that the Germans were politicized, so Hitler also backfired, already in Stalingrad, but the Germans, unfortunately, still had fewer fools, and they took care of their soldiers more, not relying on the fact that "women still give birth" .
                    1. +3
                      12 July 2018 20: 15
                      We must not forget that we had multiple superiority in tanks and planes, and human resources made it possible to practically make up for losses that were unacceptable either to Germany or to any other army in the world, where we are talking about millions of newly called up soldiers.

                      Here, Comrade Stalin and a number of historians disagree with you. They claim (Stalin’s speech in August 1941) that Soviet Ukraine and Belarus were captured, under the occupation of about 70 million people, and the whole of Europe works for Germany and there is no longer any superiority in people, resources and equipment.
                      It was the vastness of Russia that saved the country, whether Russia the size of France or Spain combined, the war would have ended for us only in the territory by the fall of 1941.

                      If there were no open spaces, we would build the Maginot line, like the French, and stand on it to death. And not like the paddling pools who surrendered after encirclement.
                      In general, in military art there is the concept of mobile defense, when the territory is exchanged for the necessary resource, unless of course the conditions allow. If conditions do not allow, then there is the concept of static defense.
                      Thus, in your comment, you reproach our military leaders for choosing the defense strategy correctly. Such attempts are applied in relation to Kutuzov, who also retreated to Moscow, conducting rear-guard battles with a superior opponent.
                      but the Germans, unfortunately, still had fewer fools,

                      Fortunately for us, there were much more fools at the bottom than ours. For the time being, they were saved by the German "ordnung" - order. When everyone clearly knows what to do. But when everything went wrong according to their plans, the instructions ended, and voila - we are in Berlin. By the way, smart Germans tried 44 times on their commander in chief Hitler, tried to conduct behind-the-scenes negotiations - countless times. And ours, in your expression, are “fools,” 4 years as one in one direction pulled a cart.
                      1. +1
                        13 July 2018 06: 06
                        Quote: glory1974
                        and all of Europe works for Germany and there is no longer any superiority in people, resources and technology.
                        Sorry, Slava, why did it happen, how did we lose everything so quickly, and did Joseph Vissarionovich himself talk about friendship with the Germans, "sealed with blood" after Poland? These were political miscalculations, trying to see in the German workers' national socialist party something closer than the power of bourgeois France and England. In addition, the commanding officers were tampered with, intervening in command and control, and gave us a series of crushing defeats in the initial period of the war. About "you would build a Maginot line like the french", so we had the so-called" Stalin line ", based on the analysis of defense in the First World Fortress Osovets, which took into account the competent integration of the defense in the geography of the area and the overlapping of the most dangerous areas." Stalin's line was defeated, after transferring the border, and now many frankly loosen it, again, justifying its “uselessness.” About, "our, in your expression "fools", all 4 of the year as one in one direction pulled the air“we should not openly juggle here, the whole burden of the war was not fools for us, but just in spite of them the simple Soviet people and the Russian soldier. And lastly, Stalin was an outstanding man who built a superpower, but he was a man, and people err whether to justify his mistakes or not is another question.
                    2. 0
                      13 July 2018 00: 24
                      The open spaces are not always of positive importance for the defending side, especially if the enemy has full control of the initiative, but if all the hostilities were fought on the territory the size of France, then, as you know, the concentration of forces of the defending side would be higher, this is one side, and on the other hand, the opportunity for a wide maneuver, bypasses, encirclement of the enemy forces from the advancing side would be less.
                    3. +3
                      13 July 2018 18: 03
                      in general, I agree ... but do not forget that the attack was sudden. it also played a significant role.

                      Quote: Per se.
                      The fact that the Germans had politicization also hit Hitler too, already in Stalingrad, but the Germans, unfortunately, still had fewer fools, and they cherished their soldiers more, not relying on the fact that “women still give birth” .

                      Is it when they cherished their own, let alone Romanian or Italian soldiers? From 1941 to 1945, more than 21 million were mobilized in Germany. Nitsche such frugality ....
              2. +2
                12 July 2018 20: 00
                Joseph Vissarionovich did not immediately draw the necessary conclusions, and as soon as he limited amateurish intervention, entrusted the command to the military and not to politicians, our army began to win.

                Stalin did not seek command himself. For this, there was a rate of the Supreme High Command. And the bid included more than 250 people. All decisions were made collectively. Stalin's task was to make the decision already made no matter what.
            2. +5
              12 July 2018 14: 17
              Quote: Oper
              the military doctrine itself was politicized to the limit, we will fight on foreign territory!

              It seems to me that you take political agitation at face value and confuse it with real applied actions to prepare for war.
              We have exactly the same now. From the screen there is one positive and winning reports. But in practice, actions do not correspond to this bravado. It’s one thing to reassure cooks so that they don’t bother and interfere, the real thing is another thing.
              That's all.
              1. +1
                12 July 2018 14: 58
                I'm confusing ?!) So why did we retreat to Moscow and then Leningrad was in blockade ?! Regarding the agitation of everything to you, one small but very bloody example of the Kerch operation which Comrade Mehlis deigned to steer ... If we delve into all these events of the political failure of the military operations of 1941 with which we dealt with until 1943, then taking into account such an organization as The Comintern and all the politics built around this idea, including colossal funds, tucked into the international labor movement, etc. everything falls into place! I don’t understand what you argue with me honestly! My patriotism is normal. Usual.
                1. +1
                  12 July 2018 15: 05
                  Quote: Oper
                  l bloody example of the Kerch operation which Comrade Mehlis deigned to steer.

                  Fullness to lie. Who there commanded -Kozlov? Well, so is the demand from Kozlov. How he commanded it.
                  Quote: Oper
                  If we delve into all these events of the political failure of the military operations of 1941 with which we dealt with until 1943, then taking into account an organization such as the Comintern and all politics built around this idea, including colossal funds that were tucked into the international labor movement, etc. .d. everything falls into place!

                  Stupidity is utter.
                  Where do you get your dubious knowledge from Bandera leaflets and the textbook “history” of Ueraina?
                  Quote: Oper
                  My patriotism is normal. Usual.

                  You have it directly anti-Russian and your absolutely anti-state, the so-called "patriotism". Already Poklonskaya explained and explained. What is a scam with the Romanov, you do not understand ...
                  1. +1
                    12 July 2018 15: 35
                    Swordsman, you have ceased to amuse me. Sorry, but completely stopped.
                    1. 0
                      12 July 2018 15: 58
                      I’m amused by your chatter at the level of zombie propaganda existing in Ruin. To see 25 years spent outside Russia, under the oppression of an extreme degree of anti-Sovietism and Russophobia, you have created so ornate images of the past that you generally fall out of reality not only now, but also in reasoning about the events of 70-100 years ago.
                2. +3
                  12 July 2018 15: 29
                  Quote: Oper
                  I'm confusing ?!) So why did we retreat to Moscow and then Leningrad was in blockade ?!

                  Funny question. Why did the French merge with the Poles? Also purely "hat-casting" doctrine is to blame? But the Germans were ultimately stripped to the goal - what is wrong with the doctrine? Americans were thrown out of Vietnam - which Mehlis is to blame?
                  1. +2
                    12 July 2018 15: 40
                    The question was rhetorical. The French and the Poles have such a fate. Comparison of the Poles with the hyena of Europe one famous person forgot? A very accurate comparison by the way. Comparison of the Red Army with the Americans in Vietnam is generally considered offensive. I’ll ask you to think next time! I cited the Mehlis as an example of the influence of such figures in one particular operation. Are you not reading carefully?
                    1. 0
                      12 July 2018 16: 05
                      Quote: Oper
                      I cited the Mehlis as an example of the influence of such figures in one particular operation. Are you not reading carefully?

                      From the fact that your opus we read carefully. That is why you get the answers. To whom you will be asked nothing to object.
                      The defeat in Crimea is entirely the merit of the front commander and his NS, who tried to hide behind Mehlis instead of fulfilling their direct duties.
                      Mehlis sent a telegram to Stalin with the following content: “Arrived in Kerch on January 20.01.42, 1. We found the most unsightly picture of the organization of command and control of the troops ... The Commander Kozlov does not know the position of the units at the front, their condition, and also the enemy’s groupings. Not a single division has data on the number of people, the presence of artillery and mortars. Kozlov leaves the impression of a bewildered and unsure commander. None of the leading workers of the front since the occupation of the Kerch Peninsula has been in the army ... ”XNUMX
                      1 TsA MO f. 32, op. 11309, d. 139, l. 17.
                      Learn, it’s extremely easy to understand.
                      https://topwar.ru/20077-mif-o-vernom-pse-stalina-
                      lve-zaharoviche-mehlise.html
                      Why didn’t those who wrote memoirs love him?
                      “Perhaps, in that war no one dared to shoot the general before the ranks without trial. And the head of the Main Political Administration did not hesitate to go for it. Here is the text of the order to the troops of the front No. 057 of September 12, 1941, drawn up personally by Mehlis: “... For cowardice and personal departure from the battlefield to the rear, for violation of military discipline, expressed in direct failure [308] to order the front to leave assistance to the units advancing from the west, for failure to take measures to save the artillery's material part, for the loss of military appearance and two days of drunkenness during the fighting of the army of Major General of the artillery Goncharov, on the basis of the order of the Supreme High Command Headquarters No. 270, to shoot publicly in front of the formation of the commanders of the 34th Army headquarters ".
                      1. 0
                        12 July 2018 17: 48
                        I am completely far from arguing with admirers of the sanctity of Soviet political workers), but I have to say a few words about Mehlis. Not for the Swordsman of course. And so the tsarist non-commissioned officer rose to the political commissar! He considered the army to be his own business, but did not understand the military in the military! Comrade fiercely raged in one horse army to which such comrades as Budyonny, Tymoshenko, Kulik had a relationship. According to many historians, the comrades were completely ignorant in military affairs and gave Stalin worthless advice. Mehlis’s comrade himself was, according to many contemporaries, really honest, but in military matters completely stupid and fanatical to stupid! According to him, he attached a portrait of Lenin to the stroller of his child, which in his opinion contributed to the upbringing of the new Soviet man - "the child is looking at him all the time!" After Mehlis was appointed editor of the Pravda newspaper in 1930, mass purges naturally began immediately ... However, the Mehlis’s hour certainly struck when in 1937 he was appointed chief political commissar to the rank of general of the army! Here you can read Stalin’s biographer Simon Montefiore and many other materials, moreover, in Soviet sources, more or less details! An interesting telegram from Mehlisadan by him from Vladivostok- "I fired 215 political workers, most of whom were arrested ... However, brushing is not finished .. " It remains only to be amazed at Nekzhel among the Soviet political workers in the army there were so many mediocrity, lazy people, saboteurs and just traitors ?! As a result, 3 out of 5 marshals, 13 out of 15 army commanders, 57 out of 85 Corusse commanders and 110 out of 195 commanders were eliminated in the country ... In short, a little more such zeal would have left Mehlis! Remember the words of the famous hero of the Soviet film commander Serpilin? "I'm not afraid to die! I have no right to the abyss! " In connection with what they were said ?! This was talked about and shown in Soviet times! Do you hear the swordsman? Aw ?! That all explains the agromic losses of the Red Army in 1941-1942. Well, now, actually, about the Crimean events, the Kozlov commander apparently did not shine with his talents either, but tried to resist the introduction of new tactics by Mehlis! What is the tactic? And Mehlis simply forbade digging trenches so as not to poison the offensive spirit of the army! Kozlov could not resist him! Well, now, especially for admirers of the sect of witnesses to the holiness of political workers, I will quote the poet and war correspondent Konstantin Simonov, who was a witness to these events. "Mehlis preached such a tactic - who would prefer a comfortable fighting position 100 meters from the enemy uncomfortable at 30 meters would be considered an alarmist!" Naturally with all the ensuing consequences ... And so, our fighters had to fight under such political leadership! Let me remind you that this happened in the bare steppe ... When in May the Germans went on the offensive, 250 of our Oyots were on the brink of disaster! Over the next 12 days, the losses of the Soviet group were terrifying! Take a trip to Kerch and visit the local museum! It is not possible to watch the materials presented there calmly! The commanders and soldiers of the Red Army threw themselves at the tanks in an open field with bundles of grenades and shot at the enemy at full height trying to give their life more expensive! Here is someone on Red Square who needs to erect a monument of analogues that have no and not at all mediocrity, populist and fanatic Mehlis! Which with the remnants of the group on boats crossed the Kerch Strait and went to the Kuban! Losses amounted to 170 fighters, hundreds of tanks and aircraft! After Comrade Mehlis naturally tried to put the blame on Kozlov, Stalin sent such a sarcastic telegram to the political commissar revered by the swordsman, “you took the strange position of an outside observer who is not responsible for hurting the Crimean Front!” ... you are the responsible representative of the Bet! "After that, the Mehlis was demoted to the corps general! This was reflected in the other commissars! In October1942, the troops were transferred completely subordinate to the professional military! In 1943, 122 political workers were sent to the most valuable sectors of the front.
                      2. +1
                        12 July 2018 18: 04
                        Quote: The Swordsman
                        artillery major general Goncharov, on the basis of the order of the Supreme High Command Headquarters No. 270, to shoot publicly in front of the formation of the commanders of the 34th Army headquarters.

                        Unpleasant topic. Other failures of our warlords insured themselves beloved by transferring arrows to subordinates. And that didn’t save anything, neither the title nor the position, nor professionalism, nor initiative. Rather, on the contrary, an initiative and competent general (colonel, brigade commander, commander, commander) was the first to be shot.
                        For example, the Commander of the North-West Air Force A.P. Ionov was arrested on July 1, 1941. He was sentenced to death by a special meeting under the NKVD of the USSR on February 13, 1942. The verdict was executed on February 23, 1942. He was the only one who gave the order to raise bombing aircraft at dawn on June 22, 1941 for the bombing of German airfields and railway stations. Maybe they shot for that, which acted contrary to the directive of the General Staff "not to succumb to provocations"?
                        By the way, when 86 bombers went on a combat course, they tried on the radio to cancel the order. One or two groups closed the bombers and turned home, the rest were bombed.
                      3. 0
                        12 July 2018 18: 15
                        Quote: Oper
                        According to many historians, the comrades were completely ignorant in military affairs and gave Stalin worthless advice.

                        What are such "many" surnames. And a reference to the works of these many.
                        Quote: The Swordsman
                        As a result, 3 out of 5 marshals, 13 out of 15 army commanders, 57 out of 85 Corusse commanders and 110 out of 195 commissions were eliminated in the country.

                        Another blah blah blah. You’ll start to figure out what's there and how it turns out to be a division commander, club correspondent. Well, and so on.
                        The archival document witnesses - RGVA.F. 37464. Op. 1. D. 12. L. 92, describing the state of the Red Army in 1936: “... The poor combat training of the troops of the times of Uborevich and Yakir was due not only to the low qualifications of the commanders of the Red Army, but also to poor military education.

                        The level of the latter can be judged, for example, by the collective portrait of the command staff of the 110th BVO Rifle Regiment, made by the commander KP Under the crap in October 1936: "The younger ones are keeping familiar with the elders familiarly, licentiously ... sitting, taking orders, wrangling ... A lot of ragged uniforms, dirty, unshaven, in ragged boots."
                        Published in No. 56–57 (p. 3-5) of the Opposition Bulletin, Trotsky’s article was called “Decapitation of the Red Army”. Since then, this "m o d a" has been going on.

                        When from the rostrum of the 40th Congress the undead Trotskyist Khrushchev slandered Stalin, he used the formulations of Trotsky himself. Neither he nor his accomplices in the collapse of the Great Power were capable of more. The "digital" part of this slander, that is, about the allegedly 69100 thousand killed Red Army commanders, appeared during Khrushchev’s vile report to the 3875241th Congress of the CPSU.https: //ssXNUMX.livejournal.com/XNUMX.html
                        Learn helps obscure obscurantism to drive out of the head.
                        Quote: Oper
                        That all explains the agromic losses of the Red Army in 1941-1942. N

                        Well, you yourself can explain what horrible and how horrible, it has little to do with reality.
                        For the sergeant of the Armed Forces, the level of understanding of the problems of the OShS, from 1937 to June 22, 1941, the number of the Red Army increased 3,75 times - from 1,433 million people. up to 5,373 million people. .out of understanding, but for the allegedly Ministry of Internal Affairs, the same thing is completely beyond understanding. Tell us the recipe on how to make three from the division. Manning all three compounds with equal frames. Do you know? No? Do not understand what it is about? Then do not judge what is not understood.
                        Quote: Oper
                        The commanders and soldiers of the Red Army rushed to the tanks in the open field with bundles of grenades and at full height

                        Don’t put pressure on a tear. Ask a question to Kozlov Komfront, why he placed the troops so and why they were in a clean field. Without equipment, why on its right flank. Where did the Germans' main blow turn out to be the most unstable and unstable units.
                        Quote: Oper
                        "you took the strange position of an outside observer who is not responsible for hitting the Crimea Front! ... you are the responsible representative of the Headquarters!"

                        You don’t wag. I told you about this. Nevertheless, Stalin also gave an assessment to the goat, where did he end up. What did he command?
                        Quote: Oper
                        In October1942, the troops were transferred completely subordinate to the professional military! In 1943, 122 political workers were sent to the frontier sections of the front.

                        Not .. the enchanting fountain of stupidity ... the famous photograph - in ATAKU - it is mistakenly believed that the battalion commander is depicted, in fact, POLITRUK = IMPORTANTly they were obliged to be the first to launch an attack. Read a non-press press.
                        Political departments and officers were always in the armed forces, and after reforming and introducing one-man command, thereby. Stalin indicated-FOR EVERYTHING, the COMMANDER answers, so that the situation with the gantry would not be repeated.
                        .
                      4. 0
                        13 July 2018 09: 46
                        Quote: Captain Pushkin
                        For example, the Commander of the North-West Air Force A.P. Ionov was arrested on July 1, 1941. He was sentenced to death by a special meeting under the NKVD of the USSR on February 13, 1942. The verdict was executed on February 23, 1942. He was the only one who gave the order to raise bombing aircraft at dawn on June 22, 1941 for the bombing of German airfields and railway stations.

                        Before writing assumptions, why and for what this general was punished. You would be interested and find, for example, this- "
                        He was arrested on July 1, 1941. He was sentenced to death by a special meeting under the NKVD of the USSR on February 13, 1942. The sentence was executed on February 23, 1942.
                        CAUSE
                        According to memorandum No. 03 dated June 28 of the head of the 3rd division of the North-Western Front of the division commissar Babich (head of the counterintelligence of the district-front) in PribOVO:
                        "The commander of the 7th air division, Colonel Petrov, from the very beginning of the military operations, organized all sorties at his discretion, did not supervise the proper military operations from the very beginning.
                        On June 19, Petrov was warned by the deputy commander of the Air Force for political work about possible military operations; he was given a deadline of 3 hours on June 22, p. g ... "
                        However, the commander of the aviation district of Ionov still came under trial.
                        And why.
                        “Petrov reacted extremely negligently to this instruction. I didn’t demand from the regiment commanders the fulfillment of this instruction and the regiments were actually taken by surprise by the enemy, as a result of which there were big losses of planes at the airfields ... ”
                        And here is the document “ANNUAL REPORT ON THE MILITARY ACTIVITIES OF THE MILITARY AIR FORCES OF THE NORTH-WEST FRONT FOR THE PERIOD FROM 22.6.41 TO 1.7.42”:
                        “By the beginning of the war, the air forces of the Baltic Special Military District numbered in their composition: 529 Fighters; Bombers 288; Attack aircraft 60. A total of 877. ...
                        Presumably, in the initial period of the war, about 600 ground aircraft and 50-70 naval aircraft operated in front of the North-Western Front. <…>
                        Regardless of the fact that due to the unfavorable situation on 19.6.41, the units were ordered to go on combat alert and to disperse the materiel from base airfields to operational
                        No specific instructions were given to the headquarters of the Baltic Special Military District at the command post in the Panevezys region, command and aviation units
                        On the contrary, on the night from 20 to 21 and from 21 to 22.6.41, the aviation units were ordered to make night training flights.
                        As a result, most of the bomber regiments were bombarded by the enemy at the time of the after-flight inspection of the material part and refueling it with fuel. The flight crew was just disbanded to rest after night work. ... "
                        F. 221, op. 142687ss, d.1, ll. 3-17. SBD No. 34, 1958
                        As a result, the Northwest Front
                        “On 22.6.41, the front lost up to 100 aircraft” - “Report to the Commander of the North-Western Front of June 22, 1941 to the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR on the situation at 22 hours on June 22, 1941.”
                        But it’s just the commander of the district air force, General Ionov, a former warrant officer and pilot of the First World War, who made stupid night flights in his units, bringing them into an unfit state by June 22.
                        By the time of the German attack, Ionov had not abolished the PBG, as in other districts.
                        He simply did not inform Moscow’s air division commanders of the order to be put on combat alert on June 19
                        He arranged unscheduled exercises for these days and after them the pilots left for their homes on the night of June 22 ...
                        FULL READY.
                        Well, finally.
                        “No. 382 Report of the Deputy Head of the 3rd Directorate of NPO of the USSR F.Ya. Tutushkina I.V. Stalin about the losses of the Air Force of the North-Western Front1 in the early days of the war
                        July 8 1941 city
                        State Defense Committee to Comrade Stalin
                        Due to the unpreparedness of the Pribovo Air Force units for military operations, the indiscretion and inactivity of some air divisions and regiment commanders bordering criminal actions, about 50% of the aircraft were destroyed by the enemy during raids on airfields.
                        The withdrawal of parts from the attack of enemy aircraft was not organized. There were no anti-aircraft defense systems for airfields, and there were no artillery shells at those airfields where there were funds.
                        The control of the combat operations of the air units by the commanders of the 57th, 7th and 8th air divisions, as well as the Air Force headquarters of the Front and the District, was extremely poorly established, and there was almost no communication with the air units from the beginning of the military operations.
                        The loss of aircraft on the ground in the 7th and 8th air divisions alone is 303 aircraft.
                        A similar situation in the 6th and 57th air divisions.
                        Such losses of our aviation are explained by the fact that for several hours after the attack by enemy aircraft, the district command forbade the enemy to fly out and destroy.
                        District Air Force units entered the battle late, when a significant portion of the aircraft had already been destroyed by the enemy on the ground.
                        Relocation to other airfields took place in an unorganized manner, each division commander acted independently, without instructions from the Air Force of the District, they landed any way they wanted, as a result of which 150 cars were accumulated at some airfields.
                        So, at the Pilzino airfield, the enemy, having discovered such an accumulation of aircraft, was attacked by one bomber on June 25 this year. destroyed 30 aircraft.
                        The disguise of airfields is still not given attention. The NCO’s order on this issue is not being implemented (especially for the 57th air division — the division commander Colonel Katichev1 and the 7th air division — the division commander Colonel Petrov2), the front and district air forces do not take any measures.
                        At present, the air units of the North-Western Front Air Force are incapable of active hostilities, since they include units of military vehicles: 7th air division - 21 aircraft, 8th air division - 20, 57th air division - 12.
                        The crews who were left without material equipment were idle and were only now heading for the materiel, which was acting extremely slowly.
                        There is a lack of spare parts for airplanes and aircraft engines in the warehouses of the Okrug (MiG aircraft planes, VISH-22E and VISH-2 screws, 3 MGA candles, BS cartridges, and other details).
                        Deputy Head of the 3rd Directorate of the NPO of the USSR Tutushkin "
                        Apparently PribOVO, as in ZAPOVO, there was a ban on the departure of fighters towards the enemy until the morning of June 22.
                        And this ban came from the commander of the district air force ....
                        Now to you. I hope it is clear that everyone carried the entire responsibility for his crime, in this case leading to disaster, like Pavlov’s?
                        Air Force General Ionov did not bring the personnel on high alert to the personnel and arranged unscheduled exercises to distract them.
                        He forbade opening fire and crossing the border with Germany, preventing him from responding to aggression.
                        Then he allowed the bombing of German territory, but deprived the bombers of fighter cover, which led to heavy losses.
                        Ionov established a “special” route for the bombing groups that lay through Suwalki, where large groups of the German Air Force were in charge.
                        General Ion intentionally sent the crews to death.
                        Clearly why did this general stand against the wall? soldier
                      5. -1
                        14 July 2018 16: 29
                        You are wrong, Z. Mehlis with his arrival in Crimea, took command and initiative. The commander could only nod his head in agreement, for the Mehlis was sent by Stalin and had a telephone conversation with him almost every day. Mehlis shot a lot of soldiers of the Red Army, but, the words of I. Stalin after the capture of the Crimea (Sevastopol was still defending, but without the Mehlis, probably because he kept it): "If you need to fail the case, send the Mehlis."
                3. 0
                  12 July 2018 17: 54
                  Is the Comintern and Mehlis to blame for everything? But there were no other reasons?
                  I'm not a military man - I need to analyze the analysis of the US and British war in Iraq - their conclusions, there are probably samoyedism and recommendations for changes to those charters
          2. +2
            12 July 2018 17: 14
            Mr. Lopatov, I have great respect for your opinion.
            When I learned about Serdyukov’s appointment, I was pretty surprised when I read the presentation of V. Putin at his appointment. On the Internet you can find this view.
            When I heard about the appointment of Rogozin as the head of the defense industry, I was slightly surprised. But he was no longer surprised when he found out that he was a doctor of technical sciences.
            When Shoigu was appointed, I was not at all surprised, it was a blessing to whom to compare. I was not surprised even when someone’s lackey initiative was announced to award him the title of Marshal for the Syrian campaign a few months after it began.
            There began a debate on history. Let us sometimes look ahead. History only makes sense when we learn at least some lessons from it. Cadres decide a lot, but not all, of course. But a lot.
        3. +1
          12 July 2018 14: 47
          It should also be noted a large number of young people drafted into the SC from the newly acquired territories in the west of Belarus and Ukraine. These almost all surrendered during the first weeks of the war and many later fell into abwehr teams.
          1. +1
            12 July 2018 15: 41
            There were such examples.
          2. 0
            12 July 2018 18: 20
            Quote: Vlad.by
            It should also be noted a large number of young people drafted into the SC from the newly acquired territories in the west of Belarus and Ukraine. These almost all surrendered during the first weeks of the war and many later fell into abwehr teams.

            It must be admitted that in the border districts the majority of those liable for military service, called up for military registration and enlistment offices, did not manage to get to the army and were captured at assembly points, then they were counted in the total number of prisoners of war.
      4. +3
        12 July 2018 18: 44
        Quote: Spade
        Grandfather, a direct participant, said that until the end of the war, the "command" level of the Nazi was much higher than ours.

        I do not want to offend your grandfather. Mine was also "in those parts" but on the northern front of Rokossovsky. But the quality of the decisions made can be more or less objectively assessed by a military analyst, specialist of the appropriate level. On the spot, the soldier sees no more than his platoon, the battalion commander - no further than the regiment. Who your grandfather was, I do not know, but memories should be treated with respect and sober logic. Even marshals who see hostilities in their entirety sin with subjectivity.
    3. 0
      12 July 2018 11: 37
      Quote: Moore
      The Soviet command did not know the operational situation that prevailed at night before the counterattack, as well as how the enemy was entrenched at the achieved lines. Branched Intelligence Not Conducted

      Will there be a link to combat documents?

      Read:
      https://www.litmir.me/br/?b=147751&p=1
    4. 0
      12 July 2018 12: 28
      And why did the author need any links, the main thing is to show that the Soviet commanders were not able to do anything and only shook with fear of the Supreme.
      1. 0
        12 July 2018 12: 33
        Quote: larand
        Why does the author need any links

        Parsing.
        http://militera.lib.ru/research/isaev_av_zhukov/1
        5.html
    5. +1
      12 July 2018 20: 37
      Quote: Moore
      Will there be a link to combat documents?

      - troops and headquarters, including those located in the depths of their defense, do not seek by all means to obtain information about the enemy, do not at all study its defense, especially anti-tank. As a result, the tank units and formations, when entering into battle, act blindly and suffer unnecessary losses;
      - commanders and chiefs of staff are not involved in the selection and consolidation of personnel for reconnaissance commanders, do not create the necessary conditions for intelligence departments and intelligence units to fulfill their most important responsibilities in obtaining information about the enemy, its composition, combat capabilities and intentions;
      - reconnaissance commanders are often used for other purposes at the most critical moments of hostilities.
      © memorandum of the head of the intelligence department of the BT and MB headquarters of the Voronezh Front, Lieutenant Colonel P.I. Shulgin addressed to the commander of BT and MB of the Red Army of July 14, 1943,
      Well, you can recall orders for a future offensive.
      18 tk:
      Deployment line - Mikhailovka, TSW. "October".

      29 tk:
      Starting line for attack: TSW. "October", high. 258.8, the Watchtower to take to 23.00 11.07.43. d. Ensuring the concentration of connections and parts of the body in the source area.

      Everything would be fine, but the Oktyabrsky state farm was occupied by the Germans as early as 14:00 on July 11th. And the order of 18 mk was signed at 7:00 on July 12.
      Or a wonderful story with an anti-tank ditch in the 29 mk offensive zone, which no one bothered to warn tankers about. But this ditch completely blocked access 31 and 32 tbr 29 tk to the main goal of the offensive - the Komsomolets state farm.
  6. +5
    12 July 2018 08: 05
    Good, in my opinion, fairly objective material.
  7. +2
    12 July 2018 08: 06
    Do not understand. Why is it in armaments and not in history?
  8. +19
    12 July 2018 08: 18
    Rotmistrov’s tank army included an 931 tank, including 581 T-34 (62,4%) and 314 T-70 (33,7%). The presence of a large number of light tanks T-70 significantly reduced the combat readiness of the army.

    The Germans had an 294 tank, including the 38 Tiger and even the 8 captured by the T-34.

    A counterattack was carried out by the forces of three tank corps, which had 538 tanks in service. 368 tanks of two tank corps were to go in the first echelon, while in one there were 35,5%, and in 38,8% of light T-70 tanks.This tank with light armor and weak weapons was not able to fight on equal terms with any of the German tanks.

    These forces clashed on 12 July in a tank battle, the ratio in the tanks was 3: 1 in our favor.

    Interesting arithmetic. How many tanks participated in the battle from the Red Army? 931 or 538? Take into account how the combat strength of the T-70 (on average 37% in two corps, or 200 pieces of "moving firing points" that cannot be considered anti-tank)? What is the result? 338 medium and heavy versus 294 tanks from the Germans. 3: 1 in our favor does not work. Rout? Or exchange for time and territory won?
    And if you calculate the ratio of forces by the total caliber of guns or the weight of a second volley? divided by the total thickness of the frontal armor of the enemy? 3: Will 1 work? Or will the balance of power be expressed by a different ratio?
    1. +3
      12 July 2018 08: 32
      Thank you for the arguments ... I agree with you ... In war, as in war ... How is it ... the main thing is to knock out the tanks ... And this goal was achieved ... Which ultimately led to the fact that this battle was won by our troops ...
      1. +15
        12 July 2018 08: 41
        Therefore, "Prokhorovskaya TRAGEDY Soviet tankers "the battle cannot be called. It must be called" Prokhorovsky Feat Soviet tankers. "The arms and legs of the brown plague broke off.
        1. 0
          12 July 2018 18: 28
          Quote: Dooplet11
          Therefore, "Prokhorovskaya TRAGEDY Soviet tankers "the battle cannot be called. It must be called" Prokhorovsky Feat Soviet tankers. "The arms and legs of the brown plague broke off.

          In the army, almost everything depends on the commander. One sends the subordinates to carry out a combat mission, and the other puts the subordinates in a situation where they are forced to perform feats instead of completing a combat mission because of his headache.
          1. 0
            13 July 2018 07: 52
            I agree with you. But.
            The enemy also sets tasks for his fighters. And the imposition of tasks sometimes gives rise to a feat. And from both warring parties.
            A feat is a valiant action important to many people; a heroic act committed in difficult conditions.
    2. +1
      12 July 2018 20: 45
      Quote: Dooplet11
      Interesting arithmetic. How many tanks participated in the battle from the Red Army? 931 or 538?

      From 17.00 on July 11 to the operational submission of P.A. Rotmistrov transferred 2nd TK and 2nd Guards. Ttk. As a result, the number of tank corps of his army increased to four, and the number of armored vehicles increased by more than 200 units and amounted to a total of 931 tanks, 42 SU-76 and SU-122, as well as 12 SU-152, including 581 T- 34 (62,4%) and 314 T-70 (33,7%). Of this number, 797 tanks and 43 self-propelled guns were in service in the area where the main forces were concentrated (east of Prokhorovka), the rest were under repair and on the road. A few more cars approached by morning, before the attack in the 5th Guards. TA there were 808 tanks and 32 SU-76 and SU-122 on the move.
      Three tank corps - the 18th, 29th and 2nd Guards. Ttk, making up the first echelon of the strike group army, had in the morning of July 12 in the ranks 538 tanks and 20 self-propelled guns. Main strike the first were to inflict compounds of generals B.S. Bakharova and I.F. Kirichenko.
      In the morning before the attack, both corps were in operation 368 tanks and 20 self-propelled gunstherefore, the density of armored vehicles per 1 km of the front was originally supposed to reach almost 56 units. In fact, they were able to achieve even more - 60 tanks per 1 km, not including self-propelled guns. Therefore, the hopes of the Soviet command to split the 2nd SS CC seemed quite reasonable. And if you consider that then more than two hundred tanks of the second echelon (5th Guards ZMK - 158 tanks and 2nd TK - 59 tanks) were to join the battle together with the infantry of the 5th Guards. And, then a breakthrough of 30 km seemed to be a difficult but feasible affair.
      © Zamulin
      1. 0
        13 July 2018 08: 19
        Then, for clarity of the picture, it will be necessary to clarify the balance of forces on the timeline of the battle and the balance of forces as a whole during 12 July. According to ours, based on your quote:
        1. In the first echelon of 538 + 20 (three enclosures, - 18,29,2 (s))
        2. Before the attack 368 + 20. (Suddenly already both buildings (c)) Where did 200 go and another case? In the second tier?
        3. In the second echelon (when and in what composition was he introduced into the battle?) 158 + 59 = 217
        If we add up 568 and 217, we get 785. doesn't match this:
        before the attack in the 5 guards. TA on the go there were 808 tanks and 32 SU-76 and SU-122.
        So how many tanks participated in the battle?
        Some kind of confusion with the numbers in your quote. In any case, what figures do not take, if you do not subtract light tanks, the balance of forces 3: 1, stated by the author of the article, does not work. maximum (840 / 294) 2,85: 1. But, if the author takes into account light tanks in the balance, why not take into account armored personnel carriers and armored cars? Or anti-tank guns? How are full units in the calculation? Or well him, such a calculation of the balance of power and all the logical construction of evidence of "defeat and tragedy"?
        1. +1
          13 July 2018 16: 20
          Quote: Dooplet11
          1. In the first echelon 538 + 20 (three buildings, - 18,29,2 (s))
          2. Before the attack, 368 + 20. (Suddenly both buildings (c)) Where did the 200 and one more case go? In the second tier?

          Everything is correct. Just the battle near Prokhorovka unfolded on a fairly wide front.
          In the direction of the main attack, against the Leibstandart division, there were only 2 tank corps of the 1st echelon — 18 and 29 mk. The third corps of the first echelon - 2nd Guards. Tatsinsky shopping mall - was brought into battle in another direction, against the Das Reich division. Usually, on the battle map near Prokhorovka it is not even visible - it is below 2 mk (not guards), under the bottom edge of the map.
          Quote: Dooplet11
          3. In the second echelon (when and in what composition was he introduced into the battle?) 158 + 59 = 217

          2 tk:
          The task remains the same, that is, to let through the battle formations of the 18th and 29th TCs, be ready to develop their success or attack, providing the right flank of the army to Sukh. Solotino. By all fire means support the attack of the 18th and 29th

          In real life 2 mk part of the forces supported the infantry, part of the forces made its way out of the encirclement, part of the forces was restored after the fighting:
          The 169th infantry regiment, together with part of the forces of the 285th joint venture of the 183rd SD, defended x. Sentry, burying tanks in the ground. As early as the morning of July 11, I.Ya. Stepanova A.F. Popov handed over the 2nd / 58th MSBR. The other two battalions of the 58th Motorized Rifle Brigade, Lieutenant Colonel Boldyrev, took up defense on the x. Pits and on the southern outskirts of Prokhorovka. 99th brigade Lieutenant Colonel L.I. Malova, having only 19 cars, including 9 light ones, fought surrounded in the area of ​​Vasilyevka, Andreevka. The brigade commander received an order: by dawn on July 12, take her to the area with. Right up The remaining 26th Colonel P.V. Piskareva was in x. Grushki, where, after four days of fighting, she put herself in order.
          The 169th infantry brigade and the 58th infantry brigade had their own separate defense sectors, and the 26th and 99th brigades were the mobile operational reserve of the commander of the 5th guards. TA.
          © Zamulin
          On July 12, 2 mk mainly worked on defense, holding back enemy attacks on its site.
          As for the 5th Guards. Zmk, then he was halved by the order of Vatutin:
          To block the breakthrough in the strip of 69th A N.F. Vatutin ordered the commander to form a combined detachment consisting of: an advanced army detachment, 11th Guards. and 12th guards. mbr 5th guards. ZMK and the 26th Guards. brigade of the 2nd Guards. Ttk and send to the area villages Shakhovo, Rzhavets and Avdeevka.

          And the remaining 2 corps brigades (10th guards brigade and 24th guards brigade) Rotmistrov kept in reserve. At first, he wanted to bring them into battle at 10:45, but because of the difficult situation, the brigades remained in the rear to fend off German attacks.
          Quote: Dooplet11
          If we add up 568 and 217, we get 785. doesn't match this:

          PMSM, this is because in this amount there are no self-propelled guns 2 ton, 5 guards. ZMK and army submission.
  9. BVS
    +2
    12 July 2018 09: 00
    Quote - "T-70. This tank with light armor and weak weapons was not able to fight on equal terms with any of the German tanks."
    But what tanks were there in the Germans, except for the “38 Tiger and even 8 captured T-34s?”
    1. +4
      12 July 2018 10: 30
      Quote: bvs
      But what tanks were there in the Germans, except for the “38 Tiger and even 8 captured T-34s?”

      Ferdinants, Panthers, T-3, T-4, Stug 3 assault guns. But the ratio of the Tiger and T-70
      1. BVS
        +2
        12 July 2018 10: 53
        Are there any random pictures with the ratio of Soviet KV-2 (KV-1) and German T-3? It would be interesting.
        1. 0
          12 July 2018 11: 31
          Quote: bvs
          Are there any random pictures with the ratio of Soviet KV-2 (KV-1) and German T-3? It would be interesting.

          And what about the Kursk Bullet T-3 fought against KV?
          1. +4
            12 July 2018 15: 43
            And this is the T-34 against the Panther
          2. 0
            12 July 2018 18: 31
            Quote: figvam
            Quote: bvs
            Are there any random pictures with the ratio of Soviet KV-2 (KV-1) and German T-3? It would be interesting.

            And what about the Kursk Bullet T-3 fought against KV?

            There were T-3 and KV. But the KV-1 in 1943 looked even weaker than the T-34-76
        2. +1
          12 July 2018 15: 42

          Here is the KV-1 and the Tiger
      2. +1
        12 July 2018 16: 37
        Elephants and Brumbar assault tanks were on the northern front against the Rokossovsky troops! There were 200 Panthers on the south front (only on the south)! Upgraded Pz. III - IV. Upgraded Shtugi, various modifications of the Marder, and the Vespe self-propelled guns and other German armored crafts !!!

        The German assault infantry gun StuG33B passes by the destroyed Katyusha.
        The Germans "Katyusha" earned the nickname "Stalin's organ." Kursk Bulge, July 1943
        1. +4
          12 July 2018 21: 09
          Quote: hohol95
          There were 200 Panthers on the south front (only on the south)!

          Oh yes ... the unforgettable first Panther fight. smile
          All the Panthers at the beginning of the operation were part of the Panzer-Abteilung 51 and 52, united in the Panther-Regiment 39. This regiment was given to the Panzer-Grenadier-Division "Grossdeutschland", after which the German theater of the absurd began:
          ... so as not to “overload” Strachwitz (the commander of the tank regiment of the Grossdeutschland division) with additional leadership of two hundred of the latest tanks, both regiments were combined into the 10th tank brigade, appointing her commander of another colonel, Dekker.
          The officers appointed to the headquarters of the 10th Tank Brigade did not even have time to arrive at the front before the offensive, there was also no necessary equipment, which was vital for the normal functioning of the headquarters. Several vehicles were "borrowed" from the "panther" battalions and one of the Great Germany was shared by one mittlerer Kommandopanzerwagen (a mobile command post based on the Sd. Kfz.251 armored personnel carrier).
          © Tomzov / Ulanov
          The end is a little predictable - the hastily built system, in which the only communication channel of the Panthers and GD was the headquarters of 10 tera battles (without standard equipment, communications and l / s), collapsed immediately after the start of the fighting.
          In the book of negotiations of the headquarters of the 48th shopping mall after mentioning that at about 05:00 “Panthers” are near Yarki farm, only complaints about the lack of communication follow. Could not establish contact with the "headquarters" of Decker and formally subordinate to him von Strachwitz. In fact, the connection with the 39th Tank Regiment disappeared and did not restore until the afternoon - all this time the Panthers, in the best traditions of the Kipling cat, “walked on their own”.

          As a result, on July 6, two tank battalions, operating without intelligence, without communications and without infantry support, flew into the minefield - where they were stuck under the fire of heavy artillery 6 A and the 27th infantry fighting from the flanks of the anti-terrorist operation. Commander Panzer-Abteilung 52 there was a start from fright (from the memoirs of Oberleutnant Erdmann Gabriel), and the tank that took command of Gabriel was very quickly hit.
          The removal of Decker from the post of commander of 10 TBR and the reassignment of the Panthers, Strachwitz did not solve anything:
          the number of combat tanks of the 39th continued to decline, by the evening of July 6, about 40 remained in service, and by the evening of July 7, only 10.
    2. +3
      12 July 2018 10: 42
      Quote: bvs
      T-70. This tank with light armor and weak weaponry was not able to fight on equal terms with any of the German tanks.
      Well, this is how to look. Here, for illustration.
      26 March 1944 tank T-70 junior lieutenant Grigory Ivanovich Pegov went to explore the area in front of the positions occupied by his part - 31-I tank tank of 29-x tank corps of 5-th tank army of 1 of the Baltic Front.

      At about noon, Pegov spotted in front of him a German tank column, which, having regrouped, was preparing to launch a counterattack on the positions of the advancing Soviet forces. Pegus camouflaged his tank in a bush near the road and when two approaching German tanks PzKpfw V Panther approached 150-200 meters and put the boards under attack, the T-70 suddenly opened fire from an ambush and destroyed them faster than they were able to detect it. The enemy's lead tank was hit by the very first shots at the side, and then caught fire. His crew could not get out of the tank. The projectile, which was second in the column to the German tank, was interrupted by a sloth and the crew hurried to leave it. The remaining tanks of the enemy, believing that they ran into a strong anti-tank defense of the enemy, turned back. Thus, the bold and skillful actions of Junior Lieutenant Pegov disrupted the enemy’s attempt to launch a counterattack against the advancing units of the Red Army.
      What the Germans were tanks in battle, there is such an indisputable picture.
      1. +1
        12 July 2018 14: 08
        Quote: Per se.
        What the Germans had tanks in battle, there is such an indisputable picture

        StuG IV in the picture is superfluous, it has been produced since December 1943.
      2. +1
        12 July 2018 15: 51
        For example, to the beginning of the German offensive on the Kursk in the composition The 201st Tank Brigade (7th Guards Army of the Voronezh Front) had 18 Matilda tanks, 31 Valentine and three T-34s. Together with the infantry of the 73rd Guards Rifle Division and the 1669th Anti-Tank Fighter Regiment, this brigade defended the area near the farms Gremuchiy and Krutoy Log.

        On July 17, 1943, the 8th separate tank regiment arrived in the 224th Guards Army. 33 MK.II Matilda tanks and seven MK.III Valentine tanks. The next day, the regiment attacked enemy positions in the vicinity of the village of Bogorodnicheskaya. However, due to the passivity of our infantry, the attack was unsuccessful: in battle, the tankers destroyed 16 anti-tank guns, but they themselves lost five MK.II burned, five MK.II and five MK.III destroyed. In addition, eight MK.II were out of order for technical reasons.

        Participated Churchill and in the Battle of Kursk. For example, the 5th Guards Tank Army in the battles near Pro-Khorovka included the 15th (10 MK.IV) and 36th (21 MK.IV) breakthrough guards. Subsequently, the 15th regiment received the KB-1C tanks, and the 36th regiment replenished with the Churchilli and was transferred to the Leningrad Front. The 1th Separate Guards Tank Regiment of the Breakthrough arrived in the 10st Guards Tank Army in mid-July, and on July 21, in collaboration with the 39th Panzer Brigade, 174th and 57th Rifle Divisions, he attacked enemy positions in the direction of Andreevka - Petropolis - Kopanka . During the battle, the tanks were cut off from the infantry and almost all were destroyed - on the first day, 16 Churchillas burned down. After that, the regiment was withdrawn to the rear and rearmed with another material unit. On July 13, 1943, the 34th Separate Guards Tank Regiment of the Breakthrough arrived on the Bryansk Front. On August 5, 1943 his Churchills were the first to break into the Eagle.

        On the eve of the Battle of Kursk on July 1, 1943 in the 48th Army of the Central Front, for example, there were 85 MZs tanks: in the 45th separate tank regiment - eight MZLs, 30 MZs and eight self-propelled guns SU-76, in the 193rd separate tank regiment - 55 MZs and three SU-76. The 245th separate tank regiment of the 6th Guards Army of the Voronezh Front had 12 MZL and 26 MZs tanks, and the 230th separate tank regiment - 32 Mzl and 6 Mzs.

        There were all kinds of different tanks on both sides!
        1. 0
          12 July 2018 20: 25
          There were all kinds of different tanks on both sides!

          He was in Prokhorovka in the village museum. I read the combat reports of the units before the start of the battle. I was surprised that according to the data on the combat and numerical strength of up to 70% of the tanks we had Lend-Lease.
  10. +11
    12 July 2018 09: 26
    The Germans could not get anything on the Kursk Bulge. Absolutely. We passed two lines on Voronezh (on the Central only the front page.), And there were nine (prepared) lines. (ours very much).

    But not even that. The Germans had no reserves by this time. Why?
    But because despite the preparations for a strategic offensive in one direction (this is how many troops they pulled). That they could not continue the offensive, okay.
    BUT.
    1. They couldn’t rest on their laurels (well, it’s clear, to keep with such flanks)
    2. They did not stay at the source.
    3. They began to move away.
    4. They did not maintain such a super-powerful natural frontier as the Dnieper.
    5. They rolled back right up to Zhytomyr (ours were forced to leave him later)

    In four months, ours covered 500 km.
    Who was advancing? And where did the Germans, their technology, their formations go?
    And then the forty-fourth came and they had something badly broken (and this despite the fact that their industry worked most efficiently in 1944).
  11. 0
    12 July 2018 09: 27
    Quote: chenia
    The Germans could not get anything on the Kursk Bulge. Absolutely. We passed two lines on Voronezh (on the Central only the front page.), And there were nine (prepared) lines. (ours very much).

    But not even that. The Germans had no reserves by this time. Why?
    But because despite the preparations for a strategic offensive in one direction (this is how many troops they pulled). That they could not continue the offensive, okay.
    BUT.
    1. They couldn’t rest on their laurels (well, it’s understandable, you can’t hold back with such flanks)
    2. They did not stay at the source.
    3. They began to move away.
    4. They did not maintain such a super-powerful natural frontier as the Dnieper.
    5. They rolled back right up to Zhytomyr (ours were forced to leave him later)

    In four months, ours covered 500 km.
    Who was advancing? And where did the Germans, their technology, their formations go?
    And then the forty-fourth came and they had something badly broken (and this despite the fact that their industry worked most efficiently in 1944).
  12. +4
    12 July 2018 09: 35
    Probably the author, in continuation of the topic, will talk about the work of the state commission regarding our losses near Prokhorovka. One of the results of her work was the decision to withdraw light tanks from service!
    1. 0
      12 July 2018 18: 37
      Quote: andrewkor
      Probably the author, in continuation of the topic, will talk about the work of the state commission regarding our losses near Prokhorovka. One of the results of her work was the decision to withdraw light tanks from service!

      Not only T-70s were discontinued, but also 45mm anti-tank missiles, put into production T-34-85, began to install radio stations on all tanks and fighters.
      1. +2
        12 July 2018 22: 20
        Quote: Captain Pushkin
        Not only T-70s were discontinued, but also 45mm anti-tank missiles, put into production T-34-85, began to install radio stations on all tanks and fighters.

        Well, at the expense of radio stations, it seems, they had guessed before.

        Nevertheless, the analysis of the results of the Battle of Kursk by the command of the Red Army is indeed a very interesting topic. And just in this part, as far as I am in the material, they performed very worthily, even beyond expectations.
  13. +1
    12 July 2018 09: 39
    Well, 1500 tanks did not participate directly in the oncoming battle. These are figures for the entire war zone.
  14. +5
    12 July 2018 09: 46
    In the spirit of Shirokarad and Rezun
  15. +2
    12 July 2018 10: 08
    -And where was our worthless military aircraft ..? - Everywhere they write that by the 1943 year we had complete air superiority ...
    -It was “clear-fair” weather ... -not a cloud in the sky ... -Why didn’t drive, didn’t collect all the heavy bombers of TB and in general all the bombers that were and didn’t throw bombs, didn’t destroy, didn’t burn them in the trash ... - nothing covered, not particularly protected and clearly visible accumulations of German tanks ...? -It was literally ... like in the palm of your hand ...
    - It’s clear that ... - they also overslept ...
    1. +1
      12 July 2018 10: 48
      Aviation against heavy tanks is not very suitable, because there was no short-range ammunition then, and the fragments of bombs were not a big obstacle, for the same "Tiger". Heavy bombers in the USSR, at that time, were essentially absent
      1. +2
        12 July 2018 11: 44
        -Yes, they would at least make pits with their bombs and the “tigers” would lose maneuverability ... -And where were our vaunted “IL-2" ..?
        -Americans and British were just waiting for flying weather when they opened the "second front" ... -flown in and literally left no stone unturned (without much loss) ... -and of the "tigers" only broken burning skeletons were obtained ... -Germans just prayed for "bad non-flying weather" ...
        -And we had the opposite .. -when it would be possible to save people ...
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +1
        12 July 2018 18: 40
        Quote: Stirbjorn
        Aviation against heavy tanks is not very suitable, because there was no short-range ammunition then, and the fragments of bombs were not a big obstacle, for the same "Tiger". Heavy bombers in the USSR, at that time, were essentially absent

        Just in time for the Battle of Kursk, aviation cartridges of cumulative bombs were adopted.
        One covered 300m. Prior to the Battle of Kursk, its use was prohibited.
    2. +3
      12 July 2018 11: 47
      Quote: gorenina91
      -And where was our worthless military aircraft ..? - Everywhere they write that by 1943 we had complete air superiority ...

      In 1943, it was over Kursk that the Germans for the first time could not gain superiority in the air and suffered heavy losses in aviation. Our aviation was involved in the number of more than 2800 aircraft, of which more than 500 were bombers. The Germans were able to put up about 1800 aircraft, both sides suffered heavy losses, for us they were replenished, but for the Germans not.
      1. 0
        12 July 2018 12: 13
        -Mda .., we made up ... and the Germans ...- no ...
        -Only until the end of the war, the Germans continued to fight very effectively in the air ... -And how many of our tanks were German planes burned during the capture of Berlin ...- already in the very last days of the war ...
        1. +6
          12 July 2018 12: 27
          Quote: gorenina91
          And how many of our tanks German planes burned during the capture of Berlin ...- already in the last days of the war ...

          Well, and how much? With a total lack of aviation gasoline.
          "What could be said about the means that knocked out Soviet tanks on the streets of Berlin and on the Zeelovsky heights? The wrecked tanks were selectively inspected. Collecting statistics was a mandatory procedure: reports of combat damage were sent to the Main Armored Directorate of the Red Army. Subsequently, this kind of statistics was used to the development of technical requirements for new equipment: For 75 irretrievably lost tanks and self-propelled guns of the 1st Guards Tank Army, the damage was distributed as follows: Of the 65 T-34 tanks inspected, 58 were fatally damaged by artillery fire, 2 were hit by air strikes, and all 5 tanks were hit by “Faustpatrons” {221}. All 7 IS-2 heavy tanks inspected were hit by artillery. Of the three ISU-443 inspected [122], two self-propelled guns were hit by artillery, and one by Faustpatron. In total, 75 tanks inspected were 113 hits, with 60 (53%) being on board the hull, 16 (14,6%) in the forehead of the hull, 6 (5,3%) in the stern, 27 (23,9%) in the tower and 4 (3,54%) in the chassis. "Http://militera.lib.ru/research/isaev_av_
          zhukov / 15.html
          So what about the total "execution" of Soviet tanks, the German Luftwaffe?
          1. 0
            12 July 2018 14: 05
            -In April 1945, the Luftwaffe used Panzerblitz missiles against our tanks ...
            -Find the theme "Luftwaffe in the 45th. Recent flights and projects ”and read everything yourself ...
            1. 0
              12 July 2018 14: 27
              Quote: gorenina91
              with might and main used missiles "Panzerblitz" ...

              And so what? Another prodigy. In your imagination that destroyed "thousands" of tanks?
              The Soviet aerial bomb with IL 2, PTAB 2,5-1,5 was much more efficient as it was, and only falling into the upper projection of the tank.
              To combat tanks in 1944, the Panzerblitz 1 unguided missile was created. This missile was created on the basis of an army 8-cm missile WK, which in turn was a converted Soviet 82-mm missile M-8. The caliber of the 8-cm WK rocket was 78 mm, the length was 705 mm, and the total weight of the rocket was 6,6 kg. The fragmentation part of the 8 cm WK missile was replaced by a cumulative one. The missile had a maximum speed of 374 m / s and pierced 90 mm armor normally.

              The Panzerblitz 1 missile was launched from rail-type guides or from an eight-shot launcher discharged after rocket launch.

              At the end of 1944, a small batch of upgraded Panzerblitz missiles was launched with a 130-mm diameter supercaliber cumulative warhead. The reactive part was taken from a 55-cm R4 / M rocket. The rocket developed a speed of up to 370 m / s.

              Such missiles were used at the end of 1944 on the Eastern Front with FW-190F-9 aircraft.


              Adapted from the electronic directory "Weapons of the Second World"
              Efficiency is close to zero. Unless you get into the marching column in the parking lot or in SPAM.
              1. 0
                12 July 2018 15: 04
                - What are you ..? -And what ..?
                -I clearly told you ... -what to read and what to read about ... -And do not discuss the effectiveness of the "early birds" ...
                -In this topic, IN what I advised ... -On April 17, 2018, our losses (namely tanks) from German aircraft are given and it was in April 1945 ... the number of tanks ... -day is painted ... - how many of our tanks were destroyed by the Luftwaffe in April ...
                1. +2
                  12 July 2018 15: 09
                  Quote: gorenina91
                  And do not discuss the effectiveness of the "early birds" ...

                  What are the "early ATGMs" ??? that in Russian you read hard, all these Panzerblitz-NAR.based on the RS 82 mm.
                  Madam, you better advise your friend how to make a roast, for example, and how much to put there. And the number of tanks affected by the means of destruction I have indicated and the number of these tanks in relation to the Berlin operation-struggle for the ZEELOVSKY heights are indicated here - "" What could be said about the means that knocked out Soviet tanks on the streets of Berlin and on the Zeelovsky heights? Damaged tanks were selectively inspected. The collection of statistics was an obligatory procedure: reports on combat damage were sent to the Main Armored Directorate of the Red Army. Subsequently, such statistics were used to develop technical requirements for new equipment. For 75 irretrievably lost tanks and self-propelled guns 1st Guards. tank army damage was distributed as follows. Of the 65 T-34 tanks examined, 58 vehicles received fatal damage from artillery fire, 2 vehicles from air strikes, and a total of 5 tanks were hit by “Faustpatrons” {221}. All 7 IS-2 heavy tanks inspected were hit by artillery. Of the three ISU-443 inspected [122], two self-propelled guns were shot down by artillery, and one by the Faustpatron. A total of 75 tanks inspected had 113 hits, with 60 (53%) being on board the hull, 16 (14,6%) in the forehead of the hull, 6 (5,3%) in the stern, 27 (23,9%) in the turret and 4 (3,54%) in the chassis. "http://militera.lib.ru/research/isaev_av_
                  zhukov / 15.html
                  SPECIFICED-percentage of aviation damage from air strikes - 2 vehicles and only 5 tanks were hit by “Faustpatrons”Are you able to read and understand what is written?
                  1. 0
                    12 July 2018 15: 51
                    -Yes ..., damn it ...- I got it already ...

                    /// "On April 14, 1945, 42 German attack aircraft and a fighter attacked Russian tanks advancing along the Reichsavtoban in the area between Breslau and Lienit, while getting hit by targets. On April 15, 9 / SG squadron 4, as part of seven FW-190 F-8 aircraft, during the first attack, thirty-six Panzerblitz missiles were fired at T-34 tanks, resulting in four tanks being set on fire ...
                    During the second attack, three more T-34 tanks were destroyed. In a subsequent attack on the same day, the FW-190 F-8 troop fired another 16 Panzerblitz missiles, making it into the T-34 tank and self-propelled gun. In the next three attacks, another 32 anti-tank missiles were launched, destroying four T-34 tanks.
                    One of the most successful events using Panzerblitz missiles was the operation against the Soviet troops near Köberwitz on April 16, 1945, when 12 heavy Soviet tanks were destroyed, another tank was damaged ...
                    On April 17, 8 FW-190 F-8 aircraft struck in the area of ​​the breakthrough of Soviet troops on the front section between Brünn and Troppau. In the course of this strike, it was alleged that one enemy heavy tank was destroyed and one self-propelled gun was damaged.
                    Pilots from Air Group 2 / SG 2 during the attacks successfully covered the cluster of enemy tanks and vehicles near Weißwasser. Panzerblitz bombs and missiles hit a large number of enemy vehicles. For a short time, these attacks led to the cessation of movement of the Soviet units in the attacked section of the Reichsavtoban.
                    On April 18, 59 Panzerblitz capable of carrying missiles and bombs from German aircraft launched a missile bomb strike, killing 27 enemy tanks and 6 self-propelled guns, while Fedler, 10 from Pz / SG 2, sequentially hit four tanks and two self-propelled guns the enemy ...
                    The most revealing was the case that took place in the first days of May. Then the Soviet tankers supporting their infantry units, considering the war was already over, arranged their tanks in front of the Brandenburg Gate in two rows, as if in a parade. Several pilots from the anti-tank squadron 10. (Pz) / SG 9, including Lieutenant J. Reitinger (Josef Raitinger), delivered one of their last attacks on the enemy. The Panzerblitz missiles, as if during exercises, were fired from a distance of 900 meters, then, when flying over the target, bombs were additionally dropped. With the last drops of fuel, the FW-190 F-9 returned to its airfields in Rechlin-Müritz. "...
                    1. +3
                      12 July 2018 17: 13
                      Quote: gorenina91
                      Come on...

                      And now a reference to this your speech. Memoirs of beaten Germans?
                      In fact, there is only the GABTU report on the loss of tanks and the percentage of defeats by various types of anti-tank missiles. Including the defeat of aviation "You are building all your thoughts on these fantasies-" However, until the last day of the war, German attack pilots threatened the enemy with their sudden attacks. The most revealing was the case that took place in the first days of May. Then the Soviet tankers supporting their infantry units, considering the war was already over, arranged their tanks in front of the Brandenburg Gate in two rows, as if in a parade. Several pilots from the anti-tank squadron 10. (Pz) / SG 9, including Lieutenant J. Reitinger (Josef Raitinger), delivered one of their last attacks on the enemy. The Panzerblitz missiles, as if during exercises, were fired from a distance of 900 meters, then, when flying over the target, bombs were additionally dropped. With the last drops of fuel, the FW-190 F-9 returned to its airfields in Rechlin-Müritz. The latest departures included the departures of the remaining SG / 3 assault squadron aircraft, based at the Flensbeerg-Weiche airfield in Courland. "http://rufor.org/showthread.php?t=49450
                      There are no references to anything serious. And consequently, the filkin letter is all your writings.
                    2. +4
                      12 July 2018 21: 27
                      Quote: gorenina91
                      -Yes ..., damn it ...- I got it already ...

                      To prove our losses on the basis of backlash applications is powerful. smile
                      Do not be surprised when in response they will prove the effectiveness of our IL-2, citing the same applications as evidence our pilots by loss German armored vehicles near Kursk.
                      1. 0
                        12 July 2018 23: 53
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        Quote: gorenina91
                        -Yes ..., damn it ...- I got it already ...

                        To prove our losses on the basis of backlash applications is powerful. smile
                        Do not be surprised when in response they will prove the effectiveness of our IL-2, citing the same applications as evidence our pilots by loss German armored vehicles near Kursk.

                        It is well known that during the Korean War, some pilots of F-86 fighters reported in their memoirs that in one flight they shot several dozen T-12,7 tanks from their 34mm machine guns.
                        It’s good that it’s not from a service pistol.
                        And why are German pilots worse? And ours were not far behind them.
            2. 0
              12 July 2018 17: 56
              Do not learn game history.
            3. +3
              12 July 2018 21: 23
              Quote: gorenina91
              -In April 1945, the Luftwaffe used Panzerblitz missiles against our tanks ...
              -Find the theme "Luftwaffe in the 45th. Recent flights and projects ”and read everything yourself ...

              Please do not pull on the globe three fronts and four tank armies of the action of the only Gefechtsverband Rudel.
              The only direction in which our tanks had significant losses from backlash was Bautzen.
              From the raids of German aviation from 12.00 to 15.00 April 22 part of the 7th Guards. the mechanized corps in Weisenberg lost 6 T-34s, 3 SU-85s and 110 personnel.
              © Isaev
              Only 7 guards. MK of 117 lost tanks and self-propelled guns accounted for 24 aircraft.
              All other tank and mechanized formations suffered minor losses from backlash operations, for example, in 2 guards. Of the 576 tanks and self-propelled guns that were out of order during the Berlin operation during the Berlin operation, only 29 vehicles account for TA. At 3 Guards. TA backlash damaged 1 tank altogether.
        2. +6
          12 July 2018 12: 32
          Quote: gorenina91
          - Only until the very end of the war did the Germans continue to fight very effectively in the air ...

          Not the Germans, but all of Europe, except England. They fought so effectively that they constantly retreated after Kursk, and then surrendered.
          1. 0
            12 July 2018 14: 12
            - Hooray ... hooray ... hooray ...
            1. +7
              12 July 2018 15: 12
              Yes, you honestly. Otor Hail, it will be clear and understandable.
            2. +3
              12 July 2018 15: 29
              Quote: gorenina91
              - Hooray ... hooray ... hooray ...

              What did you manage to weld cabbage soup in parallel with the site?
          2. +2
            13 July 2018 00: 00
            Quote: figvam
            Quote: gorenina91
            - Only until the very end of the war did the Germans continue to fight very effectively in the air ...

            Not the Germans, but all of Europe, except England. They fought so effectively that they constantly retreated after Kursk, and then surrendered.

            Father went to Germany through Belarus-East Prussia-Poland. According to him, he practically did not see German planes since 1943.
            He fought since July 1941, there was nothing to compare.
      2. +2
        12 July 2018 18: 52
        Quote: figvam
        Quote: gorenina91
        -And where was our worthless military aircraft ..? - Everywhere they write that by 1943 we had complete air superiority ...

        In 1943, it was over Kursk that the Germans for the first time could not gain superiority in the air and suffered heavy losses in aviation. Our aviation was involved in the number of more than 2800 aircraft, of which more than 500 were bombers. The Germans were able to put up about 1800 aircraft, both sides suffered heavy losses, for us they were replenished, but for the Germans not.

        A highly controversial statement. Before the offensive, the Germans inflicted a massive raid of about 350 bombers on the Kursk railway junction. Ours raised over 500 fighters for reflection, but could not cover the knot. The degree of destruction was such that it was easier and faster to lay a branch bypassing the city.
        Plus, in the memoirs of infantrymen, artillerymen and tankers there is a lot about the unpunished bombing of German and Italian aircraft and practically nothing about our valiant aviation, about how it covered them from attacks and bombed the Germans. Well, unless attack aircraft arrived and instead of the Germans mistakenly bombed their own.
    3. +2
      12 July 2018 15: 40

      Read and maybe find the answers to your questions!
    4. 0
      12 July 2018 21: 58
      Quote: gorenina91
      -And where was our worthless military aircraft ..? - Everywhere they write that by the 1943 year we had complete air superiority ...
      -It was "clear-fair" weather ... -not a cloud in the sky ... -Why didn’t drive, didn’t collect all the heavy bombers of TB and in general all the bombers that were and didn’t throw bombs, didn’t destroy, didn’t burn them in the trash ... - nothing covered, not particularly protected and clearly visible accumulations of German tanks ...? -

      Well, actually it was, only the Germans were also quite strong in the air, and in the sky over the Oryol-Kursk arch the pogrom of the Soviet aviation was very serious - yet the summer of 43 was not at all the summer of 44, and especially not the spring of 45.
    5. 0
      13 July 2018 11: 28
      Everywhere they write that in the Kuban and the Kursk Bulge there was a turning point in the air war. They spoke of superiority only in the second half of 44.
      Do not put a shadow on the wattle fence! On the Kursk Bulge, German aircraft, as well as ours, suffered VERY large losses. But if our factories and aviation schools managed to cope with this, then the Germans did not work out. There were still enough planes, but with the pilots it was worse and worse day by day.
  16. +1
    12 July 2018 10: 26
    Dear author, why there is no information about plans for a counterattack on July 5, 1943, which should have been carried out by units of Katukov’s army!
    The order signed by the commander of the Voronezh Front, General N. F. Vatutin, in particular, said:
    "1. To the Commander of the 1st TA, Lieutenant General Comrade Katukov, by 22.00:5.7.1943 p.m. 6/6/3 put forward two of their corps to the second defensive line of the 31th Guards. And firmly take up the defense: 3 Guards. shopping mall (as in the order - Approx. Aut.) at the turn of Melovoye, Rakovo, Shepelevka; XNUMX mk - at the turn of Alekseevka, Syrtsev, Yakovlevo. XNUMX mk to be placed on the defensive in place of XNUMX mk at the turn of Studenok, TSW Stalin, Vladimirovka, Orlovka. Army headquarters - in the area of ​​Zorinsky yards.
    Task: under no circumstances to prevent the enemy from breaking through in the direction of Oboyan.
    To be ready with the dawn of 6.7.1943/XNUMX/XNUMX to go on a counterattack in the general direction to Tomarovka.
    2. Trench tanks in defense and carefully disguise.
    3. To demand maximum effort from the troops to carry out the assigned combat mission. ”

    This attempt at counterattack was the forerunner of the events under Prokhorovka ...
    - From Stavka ... Comrade Stalin.
    Not without excitement, I picked up the phone.
    - Hello, Katukov! - came a well-known voice. - Report the situation!
    I told the Commander-in-Chief about what I saw on the battlefield with my own eyes.
    “In my opinion,” I said, “we hurried with a counterattack.” The enemy has large unspent reserves, including tank reserves.
    - What are you offering?
    - For now, it is advisable to use tanks to fire from a place, burying them in the ground or setting them in ambush. Then we could let the enemy’s vehicles reach a distance of three hundred - four hundred meters and destroy them with aimed fire.
    Stalin was silent for a while.
    “Good,” he said at last. “You will not strike back.” Vatutin will call you about this.
  17. +1
    12 July 2018 10: 56
    After reading the first part of the material, there is a feeling of some kind of doom. You know how in the series when the next episode ends on a sharp pathetic note. Very disturbing and very dumb. Was there such a mood in the troops in July 43rd? I think no. Perhaps the fragments of the driver’s thoughts near Prokhorovka didn’t differ much from the driver’s thoughts of the “cherry nine” (I apologize to those present), who was standing behind the boorishly cut “helik” him :: I’ll make you at the traffic light. And they did.
  18. +2
    12 July 2018 10: 57
    One of the most serious problems then was that the T-34 tanks were equipped with a 76 mm cannon; against the new German tanks this gun was weak. The tank units suffered heavy losses in contact with the German tanks and it was after the Battle of Kursk that they decided to replace the guns on the T-34 with 85 mm and in 1944 the T-34-85 tanks entered the army.
    Intelligence knew about the development of new tanks from the Germans, they also knew the caliber of guns, but the leadership then did not take timely measures. In some sources, I came across information that our tankers then at Kursk were seriously in conflict with the command proving the need to increase the caliber of tank guns.
    During the war years, the Germans produced only 8 thousand tanks, our industry 40 thousand tanks of only the T-34 range. The price of victory was huge in that terrible war!
    1. +6
      12 July 2018 12: 01
      Quote: Qwertyarion
      During the war years, the Germans produced only 8 thousand tanks, our industry 40 thousand tanks of only the T-34 range.

      Production of armored vehicles in Germany 1941-45: tanks and self-propelled guns - 46857; BTR and BA - 26651.
      Plus thousands of captured Czech, French, Soviet.
      Look at the statistics of tank production, there is a decoding for each type:
      https://historical-fact.livejournal.com/72615.htm
      l
    2. +2
      12 July 2018 21: 36
      Quote: Qwertyarion
      Intelligence knew about the development of new tanks from the Germans, they also knew the caliber of guns, but the leadership then did not take timely measures. In some sources, I came across information that our tankers then at Kursk were seriously in conflict with the command proving the need to increase the caliber of tank guns.

      It’s just that tankers were losing tanks with such speed that the industry wasn’t up to new models - it was necessary to keep the gross output of the T-34.
      Moreover, the causes of the losses were by no means technical - for example, near Stalingrad, our tankers, with tenacity worthy of a better application, in violation of all statutory requirements, repeatedly attacked over the crest of the hill, substituting their tanks under the German anti-tank vehicles located on the reverse slopes. Go around the heights, or at least establish interaction with his own infantry, who could be using mortars to squeeze German VET calculations, with mortars, no, never.
      There, behind the crest of the hollow, is an insidious enemy. Only forward. Only forward. Leverage on yourself and forward. On the enemy.
  19. +6
    12 July 2018 11: 20
    The high saturation with fire weapons of the German line of defense and the skillful organization of the fire counteraction system were one of the main reasons for the defeat of Soviet tank corps.

    This reminds me of Wehrmacht reports. He went from victory to victory in the East, to unconditional surrender. And the Wehrmacht surrendered from one humanism - they did not want to exterminate all the enemies.
    1. 0
      12 July 2018 11: 40
      Right! Especially in stating the "fact" of the defeat of Soviet tank corps. So defeated, so gouged! Such a meager price!
    2. 0
      13 July 2018 11: 42
      Well, in fairness, we must realize that it was near Prokhorovka that our tanks went head-on to the prepared anti-tank line, where the anti-tank missile and tank barrels were under 200-300 per 1 km.
      In general, I am amazed how it was possible to survive there!
  20. +8
    12 July 2018 11: 27
    Quote: Qwertyarion
    During the war years, the Germans produced only 8 thousand tanks, our industry 40 thousand tanks of only the T-34 range. The price of victory was huge in that terrible war!

    1. Maybe the Germans produced a bit of 48 thousand tanks and tank destroyers all the same. On behalf of German, Czech, Austrian, Hungarian, Italian, French ... and so on workers and engineers, I protest against such a humiliating assessment of their effort and work.
    2. They did not know how to fight the Soviet. Here they could take an example of how successfully and with little blood they fought against Germany - Czechoslovakia, Poland, France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Norway and so on - forgive me if someone scored. Or although bi successes of the imperial army against the same Germans in the First World War.
  21. +1
    12 July 2018 11: 52
    Desirable schemes, cards.
  22. 0
    12 July 2018 12: 31
    The Battle of Kursk is well disclosed in the memoirs of K. Rokossovsky. It is a pity that he did not oversee the entire battle.
  23. +5
    12 July 2018 12: 54
    In general, evaluating the results of the Prokhorov battle and drawing conclusions about the “defeat” only in terms of the number and losses of tanks is fundamentally wrong, without even paying attention to whether the author used the correct or incorrect data for such an assessment. This battle involved artillery, aviation, and infantry, which themselves inflicted damage on the enemy, and suffered their losses (both from tanks and from each other). Again, the "useless" in the destruction of T-70 tanks, undoubtedly, contributed to the destruction of infantry and artillery, paying the price for this with their losses from tanks / artillery / aviation.
    I think it’s incorrect to speak about the “rout” of Soviet tank corps near Prokhorovka. Big losses in tank corps? Yes. But let's compare ALL the losses of the parties in this section at this time. Manpower and technology. And compare the results achieved.
  24. +2
    12 July 2018 13: 44


    Here you can take a look at the number of German tanks on the eve of the Battle of Kursk. It can be noted that the Germans had quite a few T-3 tanks armed with an 50-mm cannon ...
    1. 0
      12 July 2018 15: 04
      Moreover, these T-III tanks were of those modifications that weighed more than 20 tons with 50mm L60 guns, respectively, from a 44mm kilometer. And there were them if I'm not mistaken 135pcs.
  25. +2
    12 July 2018 14: 49
    What a cry of Yaroslavich. So you can speculate, why they didn’t strangle the eloysich on the quiche. In short, there was no tragedy. Our fathers did the fighting. More precisely, the Feat. So, it happened without the mess / by the way, as with the owners of related genes - "Prussians, Borussians, etc." ; ask how in winter Stalingrad, Paulus was sent shorts and panamas, and Rommel - fur coats and mittens. And tankers on the Arc, in isolation from other branches of the army + civilian who dug hundreds of kilometers of ditches, "suck" is not worth it. In my IMHO.
  26. +3
    12 July 2018 14: 49
    The counterattack of which could not be inflicted. The calculation was on a mass basis and when opposed not by tigers and a panther, but by T3 it had good chances of success. Further advancement of this strike group went to the warehouses providing the entire group of troops (ammunition, shells, stew, fuels and lubricants .......). Therefore, they were not shot. Stalin did not differ in patience with idiots. Terrible losses in technology are caused only by the impossibility of evacuation and undermining by their enemy. The defense withstood the counterattacks began, and already the German equipment evacuated captures in the rembases. And without prokhorovka still the old woman for two said that it would be. History does not know if yes. Experts say it was necessary to redirect the blow (looking at the German maps))))) for another day (or even two). And what day will the Germans do ????? experts are silent ....
  27. +6
    12 July 2018 15: 01
    I read the comments and want to ask - what would happen if tsarist Russia alone received such a furious blow? None of the European countries suffered such attacks. In Africa, Rommel’s corps, without any surprise, drove the British across African land like snotty boys. Moreover, the British had more troops, forces and means than the Germans. In 1943, the Germans were in power and had to fight with them seriously. And it's not the bastard commanders, ours also knew how to fight. The same tanks of Rotmistrov entered the fray after a long march with tired crews. Yes, our generals did not work out smoothly in those conditions. The same Katukov turned out to be smarter and more visionary than Rotmistrov and managed to get rid of the order of Vatutin to throw his tanks into a head-on collision. And Rotmistrov turned out to be more obedient. Why couldn’t we use aviation with its small cumulative bombs, which hail into tanks and burned them very successfully, I don’t know. Why didn’t they cover the accumulation of German tanks with smoke shells, which would not allow them to shoot our approaching tanks. Why? Ask those generals, but alas, they died. Most likely there were no such opportunities, they did not foresee in advance, and then it was too late. Our tanks were knocked out more, but the Germans also had a hard time. Guderian complained that after Kursk he could not restore the tank troops. You read reviews and wonder how our stupid generals were able to end the war in Berlin. Apparently the Germans threw bast shoes.
  28. +1
    12 July 2018 16: 30
    Guys who are interested, it’s better to watch this, “Kursk Bulge: strike by blow”, unforgettable Prokhorovka is a small part of the whole operation.
    Eternal memory to everyone who died for their homeland!
  29. 0
    12 July 2018 16: 50
    Pay attention to the number of T-70 in the composition of 5 TA. This is a light tank similar to BT-5 or BT-7. And it is against the Tigers and Ferdinands.
    1. 0
      12 July 2018 17: 14
      Not even an analogue - the tower is single!
  30. +2
    12 July 2018 17: 07
    I read the article, read the comments.
    Some, frankly, confusion in the heads. For many. This is to say the least.
    German, hereditary, damn it, generals. All life, panimash, learned to drive crowds of soldiers and organize super-duper surroundings. Having an academic outlook, a couple of Academies behind him, the combat experience of the First World ... etc. etc.
    And the fact that the same "generals" designed the operation "Mercury" - where can we take it ?. And the fact that these same "generals", being lieutenants, valiantly purged the First World War - what experience to invest in.
    And then, being already four times generals, having gone through the entire war, the Second World War - and valiantly having ... having blowed his own experience - .....
    Well, what do we constantly consider these same generals - some kind of miracle-yuda-fish-whales?
    The beaten ones are the generals, B_I_T_Y_E! Our, workers 'and peasants' ensigns and non-commissioners of the First World War. Which barely distinguished hay from straw, and then they wiped themselves with footcloths in the morning, sprinkling mug with water. They could not connect two words, vodka instead of water slurped. And their main task was to put more to the people. In field. For, the Motherland requires heroes, and it is known who gives birth to fools.
    So, colleagues?
    Why read memoirs? The beaten ones need to put themselves better. To our winners, i.e. - show that we are knee-deep in the sea, we will defeat everyone with bare enthusiasm.
    And even more so if Zhukov’s memoirs, for example, came out posthumously three times with proofs. This is something, isn't it?
    What is the use of sprinkling ash on our heads now and lamenting that, say, our commanders are inept suckers?
    What is the result of the war?
    This is what we must proceed from!
    ...
    And, for example, how to deal with a marching company, which was obliged to arrive at its destination, but along the way came under bombing. And lay down half?
    Then who will be to blame?
    War is not chess. And not reconstruction troubles.
    ...
    There was also such a general, ours, who was the first to use the “artillery offensive,” who masterfully fought in 1941. And then he got into the woods ... and here he baked.
    Such generals in which category to write?
    ...
    Germans. excluding chance, they lost the war.
    Ours, relying on chance and not excluding chance, won the war.
    And the whole layout.
    1. +6
      12 July 2018 17: 34
      It was very, very hard for our fighters! The Germans updated and modernized their tank and self-propelled artillery fleet! Even Pz.III and Pz. IV got a "frontal skin" from 50 to 80 mm! Even dealing with them was difficult! Not to mention the Tigers and Panthers! But managed, BLOOD ... But managed! AND WIN!
      [quote] Significant changes have undergone the most massive German tanks - Pz.III and Pz.IV. Moreover, this did not happen in 1943, but in the spring of 1942. Just in the spring and summer of 1943, Soviet tankers had to deal with a large number of modernized tanks of these two types.
      The medium tanks Pz.III of modifications L, M, and N interested Soviet specialists from the People's Commissariat for Ammunition primarily in the design of the frontal armor of the hull and turret. They reasonably suggested that it would be a serious obstacle to domestic armor-piercing shells, since “... the front sheet of high hardness armor with a thickness of about 20 mm is installed with a significant gap relative to the main armor with a thickness of 52 mm ... Thus, the front sheet will act as a“ cocking armor ”, from the impact of which the head of the armor-piercing projectile will partially collapse and a bottom fuse will be cocked so that the detonation of explosives can take place even before breaking through the main armor of the turret box ... Thus, with the total thickness of the frontal armor of the turret box of the T-3 tank at 70–75 mm, this two-layer This obstacle can be impermeable to most armor-piercing chamber munitions equipped with an MD-2 fuse. ”
      This assumption was confirmed during tests at the Sverdlovsk test site, when of three shells fired from an 85-mm 52K anti-aircraft gun and two from a 122-mm hull gun A-19, the frontal armor of the German tank Pz.III did not penetrate. In this case, either a charge detonation occurred even before the armor of the turret box was pierced, or when a shell hit the main armor after passing through the screen, the shell was destroyed. Note - we are talking about 85– and 122-mm shells. What can I say about the 76 mm! [
      / Quote]

      Ausf.L. Additional Reservation Design
    2. +1
      12 July 2018 22: 06
      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      And the fact that these same "generals", being lieutenants valiantly purged the First World War - what experience to invest.

      Actually, it was not they who commanded the fronts of the Kaiser Reich. And the question of how they blew it - remember that unlike the Second World War, then there weren’t enemy soldiers on the territory of Germany, and this was precisely what gave Hitler and Co. the reason to blame the politicians for the deliberate loss of the war!

      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      The beaten ones are the generals, B_I_T_Y_E! Our, workers 'and peasants' ensigns and non-commissioners of the First World War.
      But for example Generalissimo Suvorov disagrees with you - "they give two unbeaten for one beaten!"

      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      And, for example, how to deal with a marching company, which was obliged to arrive at its destination, but along the way came under bombing. And lay down half?
      Then who will be to blame?
      And the one who is responsible for the air cover of a particular area is to blame. At least the Germans had it, and the air defense system in the Luftwaffe was considered one of the best. And in the Red Army - yes, half the regiment lay down, what to do, no one is to blame ...
  31. 0
    12 July 2018 17: 23
    To the fallen - eternal glory and eternal memory! No matter who and what truth is needed now. And Vladimir Beshanov wrote about the tragedy near Prokhorovka 10 years ago (if not earlier).
  32. +4
    12 July 2018 17: 43
    Quote: scientist
    Quote: Starover_Z
    And now they want to steal the VICTORY obtained at such a price by our grandfathers from the former Union and Russia?

    The incompetence of the generals is compensated by the mass heroism of ordinary soldiers - this is the Law. The great domestic direct proof of the limit of the mediocrity of the Stalin regime, which only by a miracle did not lead to the destruction of the peoples of the USSR. And the fact that for the next 70 years there were no critical views on these events led in many respects to the sad consequences of subsequent wars with the participation of the USSR in most local conflicts.

    Hello. Thanks to the mediocrity of the regime that made an industrial country out of an agrarian country. I eliminated illiteracy. It’s stupid to talk about a miracle in a world war. If you are honest, it’s only Germans who knew how to fight, because all the countries of Europe surrendered, and Britain was saved only because they on the island. Stupid and suicidal decisions were on all sides. The very scale of the forces thrown at the USSR is not the one to compare with the West and the USA in the Pacific Ocean "Operation" Cottage ". Read and compare forces. About the mediocrity of command you are in vain. Heroism is all do not stretch. Finally, do not believe the memoirs of German generals, they were all beaten by Soviet generals.
  33. +1
    12 July 2018 17: 50
    Quote: Bashibuzuk
    I read the article, read the comments.
    Some, frankly, confusion in the heads. For many. This is to say the least.
    German, hereditary, damn it, generals. All life, panimash, learned to drive crowds of soldiers and organize super-duper surroundings. Having an academic outlook, a couple of Academies behind him, the combat experience of the First World ... etc. etc.
    And the fact that the same "generals" designed the operation "Mercury" - where can we take it ?. And the fact that these same "generals", being lieutenants, valiantly purged the First World War - what experience to invest in.
    And then, being already four times generals, having gone through the entire war, the Second World War - and valiantly having ... having blowed his own experience - .....
    Well, what do we constantly consider these same generals - some kind of miracle-yuda-fish-whales?
    The beaten ones are the generals, B_I_T_Y_E! Our, workers 'and peasants' ensigns and non-commissioners of the First World War. Which barely distinguished hay from straw, and then they wiped themselves with footcloths in the morning, sprinkling mug with water. They could not connect two words, vodka instead of water slurped. And their main task was to put more to the people. In field. For, the Motherland requires heroes, and it is known who gives birth to fools.
    So, colleagues?
    Why read memoirs? The beaten ones need to put themselves better. To our winners, i.e. - show that we are knee-deep in the sea, we will defeat everyone with bare enthusiasm.
    And even more so if Zhukov’s memoirs, for example, came out posthumously three times with proofs. This is something, isn't it?
    What is the use of sprinkling ash on our heads now and lamenting that, say, our commanders are inept suckers?
    What is the result of the war?
    This is what we must proceed from!
    ...
    And, for example, how to deal with a marching company, which was obliged to arrive at its destination, but along the way came under bombing. And lay down half?
    Then who will be to blame?
    War is not chess. And not reconstruction troubles.
    ...
    There was also such a general, ours, who was the first to use the “artillery offensive,” who masterfully fought in 1941. And then he got into the woods ... and here he baked.
    Such generals in which category to write?
    ...
    Germans. excluding chance, they lost the war.
    Ours, relying on chance and not excluding chance, won the war.
    And the whole layout.

    Hello. Thank you for the adequacy.
  34. The comment was deleted.
  35. 0
    12 July 2018 17: 58
    The defeat in the Crimea is entirely the merit of the front commander and his NS, who tried to hide behind Mehlis instead of fulfilling their direct duties
    .
    Kozlov and Mehlis - absolute mediocrity, were demoted! It is possible that the Mehlis could have been shot, if not for his acquaintance with Stalin, such measures at that time were not uncommon!
    1. +3
      12 July 2018 21: 43
      Quote: Goldmitro
      Kozlov and Mehlis - absolute mediocrity, were demoted! It is possible that the Mehlis could have been shot, if not for his acquaintance with Stalin, such measures at that time were not uncommon!

      The most interesting thing is that according to the documents, Mehlis just drew attention to the fact that the formations of the Kozlov front did not comply with orders to organize defense.
      Moreover, it was Mehlis who, by hook or by crook, knocked out tanks so valuable at that time for the Crimean Front. Which the front command actually multiplied by zero in the two spring offensives of 1942.
  36. +1
    12 July 2018 18: 00
    Russophobic article however.
    The Germans are right, everything is so perfect, but with us everything is in one place.
    It is only incomprehensible that in a year (in 44g) everything will become perfect for our people (Bagration and subsequent operations), but for the Germans everything suddenly fell through one place - as if someone had turned a chessboard over)). Suddenly - these sudden metamorphoses are completely inexplicable for Russophobes, they merge completely on these accents.
    The author is a skilled manipulator - there is no time to find fault.
    1. +1
      12 July 2018 22: 10
      Quote: lucul
      It is unclear only that after a year (in 44) everything will become perfect for our people (Bagration and subsequent operations), and for the Germans everything suddenly fell through one place - as if someone had turned a chessboard over)).

      Bagration and the next - perfect? hmm, as it were, in general there were enough problems (they just don't like to write about them). Just as an example - compare the losses of the Wehrmacht in the 41 year during the outburst of Belarus - and the losses of the Red Army in the 44 year when it was conquered in the "Bagration" ...

      And a little correction - the allies at that time ended North Africa, opened a front in Italy, and then in France + a giant company of an air attack on Europe, is that nothing?
      1. +1
        12 July 2018 22: 43
        Quote: Warrior2015
        And a little correction - the allies at that time ended North Africa, opened a front in Italy, and then in France + a giant company of an air attack on Europe, is that nothing?

        Конечно.
        I remind you that 200 full-blooded German divisions fought on the Eastern Front. In the territory from Murmansk to the Caucasus. This is offhand 1.500 km in a straight line - estimate the density of German troops (on average per 1 km of the front).
        And take the Western Front - 65 German divisions fought on the Western Front. Throughout - from Germany and along the entire coastline of Europe up to Turkey. And if you take into account North Africa - the total length of the territory for these 65 divisions is 5-6 thousand km. Yes, with such a density of German troops in Europe, one could land everywhere. There would be a desire - but it was not known))
      2. +3
        12 July 2018 23: 16
        Quote: Warrior2015
        Just as an example - compare the losses of the Wehrmacht in 41 with the outburst of Belarus - and the losses of the Red Army in 44 when it was recaptured in Bagration ...


        And with what can we compare? The pace of their offensive is higher, Yes. Less losses, I also agree.
        BUT!
        In 1941, the Germans smashed the army without a normal (extremely low) BP (and this is a personnel army) and only that it was mobilized, without combat coordination. And as soon as there were connections with four-month training (Siberian divisions) and the final of the Moscow battle. And then we had failures, but in many ways this is the result of the forty-first disaster.

        Quote: Warrior2015
        the allies at that time finished North Africa,


        It's right. That they can.
        For two years, the Allies fought with FOUR Germanic divisions, and another six months and five (GG-sent when not only the Americans, but the French climbed into Morocco). At the same time, only the British had four more forces than the Romel Group (which, incidentally, fell on time).
        Information Moscow battle- Three tank groups, three to four corps (MK, AK) in each, and three divisions in the corps. Well, field armies. This is a battle. And the timing however.
        1. 0
          13 July 2018 01: 39
          Quote: chenia
          For two years, the Allies fought with FOUR German divisions, and another six months and five (GG-sent when not only the Americans, but the French climbed into Morocco). At the same time, only the British had four more forces than the Romel Group (which, incidentally, fell on time).

          More in those lands at that time was difficult to maintain + do not forget about the Italian forces. And so the Desert Fox rode there pretty.
          1. 0
            13 July 2018 06: 54
            Quote: chenia
            It's right. That they can.

            I love to praise the Allies and scold the Soviet regime, but here I am forced to assent. The allies of the 40s on the ground looked very modest, relative to their potential. They didn’t merge, no. But they did not shine. The picture that the United States Navy provided by the 44th year — when the Americans were stronger than all the others combined, and not even quantitatively, but by a generation stronger — was not even close to the earth.
            1. +2
              13 July 2018 19: 41
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              The allies of the 40s on the ground looked very modest, relative to their potential. They didn’t merge, no. But they did not shine. The picture that the U.S. Navy provided by the 44th year — when the Americans were stronger than all the others combined, moreover not quantitatively, but by a generation — was not even close to the earth.

              Heh heh heh ... So the Americans in 1944 in operational skill were approximately equal to our Red Army-42. A meat grinder in the Khurtgen forest, when companies lost 150% of their personnel (replenishment burned out almost instantly), is an example. However, even below it was no better - reading Belton Cooper sometimes fails to get rid of thought. that someone is cosplaying the Red Army-41. Crews with pine forest with mechanical drivers having several hours of driving, an attack through a minefield with clearance by tank tracks ...
              The Allies were rescued by absolute air supremacy over their territory and over the frontline territory of the enemy. As well as communication and mechanization of everything and everyone. However, the latter is impossible without air supremacy - as shown in 1940 and 1941, enemy aircraft quickly multiplied by zero both transport and special communication vehicles.
              1. 0
                14 July 2018 05: 18
                Quote: Alexey RA
                So the Americans in 1944 in operational skill were approximately equal to our Red Army-42.

                Where how. Somewhere it turned out to establish a steam rink, and he was driving (here Monti became famous for more Americans). In some places, a maneuver war was being made, performed by Patton, first of all. But overall it’s very sad.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                The Allies were rescued by absolute air supremacy over their territory and over the frontline territory of the enemy. As well as communication and mechanization of everything and everyone. However, the latter is impossible without air supremacy - as shown in 1940 and 1941, enemy aircraft quickly multiplied by zero both transport and special communication vehicles.

                Allies helped a lot. The quality of the draft contingent, industrial power, logistics, political attractiveness (although Roosevelt was very spoiled here).
                And the trouble was, oddly enough, exactly the same as that of the Red Army: personnel shortages in the conditions of explosive growth of the army (even more explosive than in the USSR) plus the wretchedness of staff thoughts, not to mention strategy. The allies’s problems of the generals, it seems to me, were related not to the formation of commanders in the form of the Central Military School and the Workers' Faculty, but to the deep secondary nature of the ground forces, as a result of which the ensigns, such as Kulik or McNair, or professional slabs, got into the generals, let's call it like Voroshilov or MacArthur. But the matter is not only in personalities. Here is the great J. Marshall, chief of the General Staff, he is also the military adviser to the president. We read, say, the history of the Pershing tank, what do we see? Incredible mess and lack of unity of command. The most incredible organizations have the right to make decisions in such matters. But the General Staff does not deal with them, not his question.
                Oh yes, another disaster. Strategic intelligence. And in the sense of obtaining information, and especially in the sense of analytics. But this is not about operational skill.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                sometimes you can’t get rid of thought. that someone is cosplaying the Red Army-41

                Nevertheless, even in this form, the Allies managed to advance with the irretrievable losses of the combatants of about 1: 1. Which is very different from the Red Army of the 41st year, including in terms of the accumulation of military combat experience.
                1. +2
                  14 July 2018 19: 48
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  And the trouble was, oddly enough, exactly the same as that of the Red Army: personnel shortages in the conditions of explosive growth of the army (even more explosive than in the USSR) plus the wretchedness of staff thoughts, not to mention strategy.

                  Oh yes ... if there was explosive growth where it is, it is not with us, but with the US Army. For the base of the deployment of a wartime army was three or four settlement divisions (depending on the calculation methodology - for a third of the military personnel in overseas formations was from local). Of these, half were stationed outside the United States and did not render much assistance in deployment (unless the Hawaiian division was divided in half as an amoeba). Half of the ground forces before Roosevelt's army reform (army in a millionsmoothly transformed into two million army) - this coast defense gunners. The size of the army reserve is appropriate - that is, none. And on this base by the end of 1941 they formed 51 divisions.
                  The easiest way in the United States was the fleet - with its peacetime strength, the naval reserve of ship l / s was wow. Moreover, the Merchant Marine Act has helped - subsidies and new vessels leased from the state were received only by companies that equipped their vessels with teams exclusively from US citizens. And from these sailors another fleet reserve was formed.
                  But the marines began a mess - not only did both brigades begin to perform in divisions at the same time, we also had to look for personnel to form about a dozen Marine Defense Battalion - mobile artillery coastal defense battalions that duplicated the army’s battalion and were intended for the defense of advanced bases with sea ​​and air before the army came to them.
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Nevertheless, even in this form, the Allies managed to advance with the irretrievable losses of the combatants of about 1: 1.

                  Duc ... the enemy is no longer a cake. And if the Red Army had the same superiority in the air - who knows what the loss ratio would be.
                  1. 0
                    14 July 2018 21: 36
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    And now the marines began a mess

                    Yes, the ILC had its own problems. But still, they could not be compared with the ground forces.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    Duc ... the enemy is no longer a cake. And if the Red Army had the same superiority in the air - who knows what the loss ratio would be

                    So here, as it were, one can speak without a subjunctive mood. Take, say, the Ardennes and, say, Balaton, look. Regarding the implementation of opportunities, Tolbukhin made, perhaps, better than what Aiki did in general is incomprehensible. Separated Patton from Monty, perhaps. One of the many episodes that blocked the Allies' path to Berlin.
                    But you can’t say about the loss ratio.
  37. +3
    12 July 2018 18: 04
    I do not think that Vasilevsky and Vatutin planned to attack the Germans head-on. Zamulin has very well-timed events and there are good maps. If you look at this battle a little wider, you can see that the direction of the German offensive passed by Prokhorovka. Vatutin correctly determined the direction of the German advance - from the bend of the Psel River, where the Germans had already captured the bridgehead and crossed the river, in the direction of Oboyan. It’s all southwest, west of Prokhorovka. Therefore, Vatutin and Vasilevsky planned to strike at the right flank of the advancing group. But what happened is what happened. Meinstein changed the direction of the offensive towards Prokhorovka. What served this decision is not known. Perhaps the opening of the march of the tank army by the German air reconnaissance, which made the march during the day without camouflage. The result is known.
  38. 0
    12 July 2018 18: 58
    I wonder where was the air reconnaissance, front-line aviation and artillery? The authorities, as always, drank vodka and disturbed the disorder. And who set the mines so that they could be removed?
  39. +3
    12 July 2018 19: 27
    It is easy to argue retroactively, it must be understood that Germany was a very strong adversary, with enormous military experience, a powerful economic potential, ideologically prepared by the army.
  40. 0
    12 July 2018 20: 23
    All right. And the march of 230 km., And the lack of intelligence, and T70 against the Tigers. However, there is an order to counterattack, a tank army pulled out of the Steppe Front (note the reserve). which Rotmistrov and Vasilevsky have the power to change something. It is necessary to fulfill the ORDER on counterattack and period. Such were the times ... The operational situation was changing rapidly, and the tank armies are not the BT 7 company. However, it was agreed with Stalin to carry out. Like that.
    R.S. Our aviation, as well as in other types of troops on the Kursk Bulge, proved to be excellent.
  41. +1
    12 July 2018 21: 03
    It remains only to bow our heads over the courage and heroism of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers, who went to carry out an impossible task in advance and gave their lives for this. In the end, we won the Kursk battle, and failed Prokhorovka, moreover, with a bang. It should be read, not only cheers-patriotic sources, where one of our La-5s shoots down 10 German Messers and Fokkers per flight, and rummaging through the archives, reading bulletins, losses, all this is now in the public domain. Then, it will become clear how hot it was that summer 43 .. And you need to do this in order to understand at what price and what enemy we won. In order to understand that May 9 is not just another day off, but the day of the Great Holiday.
  42. 0
    12 July 2018 21: 16
    I read, but about aviation on both sides - silence. Was non-flying weather?
    1. 0
      12 July 2018 22: 12
      Quote: Evgenijus
      I read, but about aviation on both sides - silence. Was non-flying weather?

      Yes, the author has not disclosed the topic. And so on both sides they were very active in the sky. The Germans didn’t fly there at all, especially on assault missions: both Hs-123, Bf110, etc. (look, I have posted a number of articles on this topic).
      1. 0
        12 July 2018 22: 32
        Thank you, be sure to read. If not difficult - give a reference, because the search time is expensive.
        Sincerely, Eugene
        1. 0
          13 July 2018 01: 40
          So everything is simple - open the profile and see the author’s publications! laughing
      2. 0
        13 July 2018 23: 26
        Well, it’s not surprising that the Germans flew everything that flew there. They almost everywhere pulled all their forces there. From this, and in fact a drawless air battle turned into a defeat for them. We had reserves, but they no longer have. Especially in flight crew.
        And so yes, the author of the article has incorrect conclusions from the point of view of what he thinks only in one plane. By the time of the Prokhorovsky battle, the outcome of the air battle was already a foregone conclusion. For this reason and on earth, the Germans no longer had anything left but to go for a bargain, until the aircraft began to roll them on a log.
  43. Hog
    +1
    12 July 2018 21: 32
    You will not envy those who were there.
  44. +3
    12 July 2018 23: 18
    It may be more precisely called the "Prokhorovskaya tragedy of German tankers."
    Questions:
    1. At the beginning of World War II in Germany there were 25 million men of military age 19-39 years. In May 1945, a total of 6 million German soldiers were captured. Hitler began to call in 1945 already children and the elderly. Where did 25-6 = 19 million men of draft age go? In my opinion, Soviet soldiers buried them all in the ground. Hence the conclusion that German statistics on casualties and troop composition are categorically impossible to believe. Consequently, the losses on the Kursk arc of the Germans are likely to be much larger than those recorded by the Germans.
    2. Germany and its allies (And this is almost all of Europe) smelted steel 3-4 times more than the USSR. The machine park was generally not comparable. Conclusion: most likely Germany built tanks 3-4 times more than the USSR. Since the waste of steel was approximately proportional in different countries. That is, in Kursk, Germany had more tanks than the USSR. Moreover, they pulled tanks from the entire front under the Kursk Bulge.
    1. 0
      13 July 2018 01: 43
      Quote: Dmitry Dmitriev_2
      Germany and its allies (and this is practically the whole of Europe) smelted steel in 3-4 times more than the USSR. The machine park was generally not comparable. Conclusion: most likely Germany built tanks in 3-4 times more than the USSR. Since the waste of steel was approximately proportional in different countries. That is, in Kursk, Germany had more tanks than the USSR. Moreover, they pulled tanks from the entire front under the Kursk Bulge.

      An interesting calculation method, like the Germans had the most and they lost much more than ours. Pleased. Steel production indicators are not compared. But, offhand, now we just remember how many primarily submarines, as well as cruisers and battleships and other ships up to self-propelled ferries and small destroyers, did Germany build in World War II? and look at the USSR ... Here comes the answer - where did the steel go.
  45. +1
    12 July 2018 23: 30
    Why are there no battle cards?
  46. +1
    13 July 2018 02: 29
    The generals often made serious mistakes, and the fear of reporting this leads to the death of ordinary soldiers. Of the relatively recent storming of Grozny in '94, the eternal memory of our tank heroes and victims of the Prokhorov massacre!
  47. +1
    13 July 2018 04: 05
    We must work with the primary sources, and not quote other people's prejudices.
    1. 0
      13 July 2018 08: 40
      Verily! I did it.
  48. 0
    13 July 2018 10: 42
    Eternal memory to the fallen heroes! They did not regret their life so that their feat after 75 years would be called the "Prokhorovsky Battle".

    Is it easy to judge the actions of post factum commanders? And in the operational environment they had to take them! Well, at least keep a cool head, because they are people too and also understand what people are doomed to.
  49. +1
    13 July 2018 17: 07
    Alexey RA,
    Not everything is so simple. GKZH appeared in Leningrad exactly at the very moment when ...

    Zhukova I.V. Stalin sent to Leningrad to organize a deblockade from the Leningrad Front, Marshal Kulik from the 54th Army of the Volkhov Front.
    For Zhukov, this was the main task. He did not fulfill it. Result - Leningrad found itself in a long-term blockade.
    The main task of containing the Germans' advance on Leningrad was accomplished before Zhukov. Therefore, even before the arrival of Zhukov in Leningrad, Hitler decided to avoid the loss of his troops, stop the attack on the city and subject it to a long-term blockade, taking part of the troops for an attack on Moscow.
    These are facts.
    The merits of Zhukov, as is customary in official history, in books and feature films, are not to save Leningrad from immediate capture.
    1. 0
      13 July 2018 19: 55
      Quote: vladimirZ
      The main task of containing the Germans' advance on Leningrad was accomplished before Zhukov. Therefore, even before the arrival of Zhukov in Leningrad, Hitler decided to avoid the loss of his troops, stop the attack on the city and subject it to a long-term blockade, taking part of the troops for an attack on Moscow.

      Ahem ... actually, Hitler's decision was completely different:
      3. On the north-eastern front, together with the Finnish corps advancing on the Karelian Isthmus, surround the enemy forces operating in the Leningrad region (also capture Shlisselburg) so that no later than 15.9 a significant part of the mobile troops and formations of the 1st air fleet, especially the 8th air corps, release for Army Group Center. However, first of all, it is necessary to strive for the complete encirclement of Leningrad, at least from the east, and, if weather conditions permit, to conduct a major air attack on it. It is especially important to destroy water supply stations.
      © OKW Directive No. 35 of September 06.09.1941, XNUMX.
      That is, GA “Sever” had an order to surround Leningrad from the east, and to do so in such a way that by 15.09.1941 it would be possible to free up forces for GA “Center”.
      And then also von Leeb creatively revised this plan, concentrating the main forces not for a breakthrough and connection with the Finns, but for crushing the defense of the Krasnogvardeisky UR and the encirclement of the troops occupying it. In fact, von Leeb attempted to set up the Halb pot, cutting off the city’s defenders from the city itself. After that, the city left without army protection would not last long - the experience of Berlin is an example of this. ICH, for the capture of the city of Leningrad itself (surrounded on all sides) by von Leebu, tank units were not particularly needed - the remaining infantry would have been enough.
      And with the arrival of Zhukov, the advance of the GA Sever did not stop. On the contrary, von Leeb tried to make full use of the few days in which the GA “Sever” still had mobile troops and formations of the 1st air fleet. September 12 was occupied by the Red Village. On September 16, parts 8 A were cut off - an Oranienbaum piglet was formed. Pushkin was busy on September 17 (von Leeb violated Hitler's order and detained 4 TGr for 2 days).
      1. 0
        14 July 2018 05: 32
        That is, GA “Sever” had an order to surround Leningrad from the east, and to do so in such a way that by 15.09.1941 it would be possible to free up forces for GA “Center”. - Alexey RA (Alexey)

        I wrote about this, "The Germans began to exert powerful pressure on the 54th Army of Kulik to defeat his army, with access to the connection with the Finns to organize a complete blockade of Leningrad, including Lake Ladoga."
        About von Leeb’s actions
        "tried to make full use of the few days in which the GA" Sever "still had mobile troops and formations of the 1st air fleet."
        after Hitler’s order to cease the military capture of Leningrad, this did not change the essence of Hitler’s strategy - the cancellation of the attack on Leningrad, which had been adopted before Zhukov’s appointment to the Leningrad Front.
        The capture of such a large city as Leningrad was inevitably associated with a large loss of troops for the Germans. It was more profitable for them to keep the ring of blockade, and the expectation of the complete surrender of the city from starvation.
        1. +1
          14 July 2018 19: 58
          Quote: vladimirZ
          I wrote about this, "The Germans began to exert powerful pressure on the 54th Army of Kulik to defeat his army, with access to the connection with the Finns to organize a complete blockade of Leningrad, including Lake Ladoga."

          Have you carefully read the Directive?
          On the northeast front together with the Finnish corps advancing on the Karelian Isthmus surround enemy forces operating in the Leningrad region (also capture Shlisselburg)

          54 And here it’s not about business at all - to connect with the Finns, advancing on the Karelian Isthmus it is not necessary to smash it, just put the screen on the flank. Environment from the east - This is a blow to the Karelian Isthmus, between the city and Ladoga.
          Quote: vladimirZ
          The capture of such a large city as Leningrad was inevitably associated with a large loss of troops for the Germans. It was more profitable for them to keep the ring of blockade, and the expectation of the complete surrender of the city from starvation.

          And for this it was necessary to seize advantageous positions and squeeze the blockade ring as much as possible. What von Leeb did before September 17 - he attacked with all the forces he had while these forces were still there.
          And, PMSM, we were very lucky that von Leeb creatively approached the Directive - instead of hitting the Neva towards the Finns, he decided to surround the main forces defending the city. Because the defense along the Neva was practically absent, and the Germans had extensive experience in crossing the barriers. But GA "North" hit the Krasnogvardeisky UR, and not east. It seems to me that von Leeb, formally fulfilling the Directive, actually did not want to surround and block, but to seize the city - and this vanity destroyed him.
  50. 0
    14 July 2018 01: 18
    Eh, Medinsky is not on you. He would show you how to "debunk the myths of war"!
  51. +2
    14 July 2018 18: 12
    The article is hostile. The author, apparently, has never in his life made decisions under conditions of uncertainty, enemy opposition and limited time. The result of the Prokhorovsky battle is the retreat of the enemy, our seizure of the operational initiative with its development into a strategic one... The result is May 9, the Red Army in Berlin..., and not the Nazi rabble in Moscow. There is no need to dance on the bones of Heroes, s.u.k.a!
    1. +1
      14 July 2018 20: 41
      Quote: Strategia
      The article is hostile.

      Who are you, masters of culture? © smile
      Quote: Strategia
      The result of the Prokhorovsky battle is the retreat of the enemy, our seizure of the operational initiative with its development into a strategic one...

      You are confusing Prokhorovka with the overall outcome of the battle on the Kursk Bulge.
      The result of the Prokhorovsky battle - 5th Guards. The TA suffered such heavy losses that its further use other than for defense was impossible. In fact, as a result of the battle on July 12, two of the five corps remained in the army - the 2nd Guards. Ttk and 5th Guards. ZMK, in which only 3 brigades were fully combat-ready - the 11th Guards. MBR, 12th Guards. MBR, 26th Guards. tbr.
      The enemy's losses, unfortunately, were not so high - and he continued to strike. In particular, on July 13-15, the same 2nd SS TC, in cooperation with the 3rd TC, carried out an operation to encircle 48 sk 69 A. The operation ended in partial success - the boiler did not work out, but the Soviet divisions were forced to leave their positions (extremely advantageous in terms of a future offensive ) and suffered heavy losses in people, weapons and transport (of the 10.07.43 people available as of July 48, 38152 in the 15639th Army Corps, 10377 people were lost, including XNUMX people irretrievably).
      There was nothing to parry the German attack - the two remaining more or less combat-ready corps of the 5th Guards. TA (2nd Guards Ttk and 5th Guards Zmk) could not even hold the defense in the neck of the emerging cauldron, which is why 48 sk had to be hastily withdrawn.
      Quote: Strategia
      There is no need to dance on the bones of Heroes

      It is better to analyze your victories and defeats yourself - according to your documents. Why wait for an uncle from the West to do this according to German documents - at best Glanz, at worst - Beevor.
      Because the freezing of history and the bronzeing of its participants ends very badly - with Rezun, Sokolov or Solonin.
  52. 0
    16 July 2018 20: 56
    The article is not credible! Minus!
  53. 0
    17 July 2018 20: 15
    Quote: scientist

    The mediocrity of the generals is compensated by the massive heroism of ordinary soldiers - this is the Law. The Great Patriotic War is direct proof of the extreme mediocrity of the Stalinist regime, which only miraculously did not lead to the destruction of the peoples of the USSR.

    Do you think the generals are much smarter now? Not at all... And the current regime is not as gifted as some people think. Those who destroyed the USSR in the early 90s are still in power and feel great.
  54. 0
    17 July 2018 21: 17
    Per se.,
    and why did this happen, how did we lose everything so quickly, and wasn’t Joseph Vissarionovich himself talking about friendship with the Germans,

    That is why it happened that a united Europe fell on us. As for friendship, they still tell us about it. Nowadays the trending topic is about friendship with fans all over the world. They will come home and tell their rulers how good Russia is.
    we had the so-called "Stalin line"

    I agree with you here. It's a shame she's gone.
    It was not fools who bore the brunt of the war, but precisely in spite of them, the simple Soviet people and the Russian soldier.

    In spite of whom did they pull? Medvedev claimed that contrary to Stalin. After this, Medvedev was ridiculed, saying that Russians live in spite of him. Who do you separate, soldiers and people from generals and leaders?
  55. 0
    18 July 2018 08: 27
    The debriefing is simply brilliant. Nevertheless, as if a well-known principle had been forgotten - the attacker suffers losses in a ratio of 3 to 1 to the defender. Taking into account the clear advantage of the "Tiger" in protection and firepower over the "Thirty-Four" of the basic and second modifications with 76-mm cannons, it must be admitted that Rotmistrov did not give the Nazis the chance to burn almost the entire 5th Guards Tank. Prokhorovka is a classic example of a Pyrrhic victory for the Germans. And there was no victory... There was an almost complete elimination of the tank fist on the southern front. They kicked up a little near Kharkov when the tanks from Rommel pulled up, and that was it... Thanks for the article, especially since Zamulin himself is almost impossible to read if you’re not a fanatic. chewing gum that you just drown in...
  56. 0
    19 July 2018 16: 53
    Thus, with a total thickness of the frontal armor of the T-3 tank turret box of 70–75 mm, this two-layer barrier can be impenetrable to most armor-piercing chamber ammunition equipped with an MD-2 fuse.”

    This is the problem of the blaster, a very small delay, and not the armor penetration of the shells. We need to install other watchers. A 76 mm solid projectile will pass through such spaced armor (50+20 mm) more easily than through 70 mm single-layer armor.
  57. 0
    19 July 2018 22: 18
    You're all lying! Read Wikipedia (obviously not sympathetic to the Russian Federation) - the number of units and formations of the 2nd SS Panzer Corps 4 TA and the 3rd Panzer Corps AG "Kempf" on July 11, 1943 - 413 tanks and self-propelled guns, and not 294 pieces - that's only 2- 931st SS Panzer Corps. The USSR does not have 826 tanks, but 301 (together with self-propelled guns and 70 T-45s, which had a 88mm cannon and bulletproof armor). The "Tiger" (Pz.VI with an 34mm cannon) could shoot a T-1500 from 34m, and a T-76 (with a 500mm cannon) from 70m. And the T-18 is a weak and inconvenient tank - not at all a competitor to even the light (25-75 tons) German Pz. IV with a XNUMXmm cannon. So the ratio is somewhat different!
  58. 0
    21 July 2018 08: 46
    Quote: scientist
    Quote: Starover_Z
    And now they want to steal the VICTORY obtained at such a price by our grandfathers from the former Union and Russia?

    The incompetence of the generals is compensated by the mass heroism of ordinary soldiers - this is the Law. The great domestic direct proof of the limit of the mediocrity of the Stalin regime, which only by a miracle did not lead to the destruction of the peoples of the USSR. And the fact that for the next 70 years there were no critical views on these events led in many respects to the sad consequences of subsequent wars with the participation of the USSR in most local conflicts.


    I would have told you about “mediocrity” in a “personal” conversation.. It is because of “solgisvintsins” like you that this country is now again “walking on the brink”..
  59. 0
    21 July 2018 09: 07
    Quote: Vladimir 5
    You are wrong, the Stalinist regime was so suppressive and punitive that it tied the initiative to the officers, and the officers were afraid of responsibility for not following orders (including executions) and acted strictly and routinely according to the regulations, although they understood the result of such actions, but their lives are more valuable. (which the Germans noticed and were surprised) and completely exterminated their units in senseless attacks... And the orders were issued at distant headquarters, with scanty intelligence data and ignorance of the nature of the terrain, therefore often initially flawed... And the regiment commander was considered a hero, having killed all regiment with minor victories, regiments were more often destroyed with zero results...

    uncle, are you..? such a “hero” would at least be deprived of his command, I won’t talk about the “maximum”, the enemies and liberals themselves will howl about the “bloody boys”... you can’t win the war with “meat”, this became clear back in the first imperialist era; for the “alternatively gifted,” special attention to butting Hans with frogs. And yes, even if you choke on bile, the Great Patriotic War was won by Real People, with the Red Banner; driving the abomination as deep as possible. It’s a pity, not forever.. Never mind, we remember whose descendants we are...
  60. 0
    27 July 2018 12: 47
    Quote: evgeny68
    I will answer you this way, about the genocide of the indigenous population of North America, the Indians, there is nothing in the US history books. Although these numbers fluctuate, according to various estimates of American scientists, from 10 to 100 million people. And how to believe it?

    What do we care about their genocides? They will film several propaganda films in Hollywood about how Spanish enlighteners fought the “bloody” Incas in America - and everyone is happy.
    But I read about Rotmistrov from Baryatinsky.
    That he threw tankers into the attack from the march in waves for slaughter.
    Still not 41 years old. It’s true that in 41 they launched successful counterattacks and liberated cities.
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  62. 0
    29 August 2018 20: 44
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Because the freezing of history and the bronzeing of its participants ends very badly - with Rezun, Sokolov or Solonin.

    And also by you
  63. 0
    3 September 2018 21: 26
    Eternal memory and immense gratitude to all the soldiers of the Great Patriotic War. Both those who died and those who fought until the Victory! It’s sad to read such articles, but we fought as best we could. And the Germans fought with ours not like in the West, with their own. Let’s not delve into the details - the main thing is that the Victory was bloody, difficult, but a Victory that no nation can boast of before its descendants. And these Winners were the SOVIET PEOPLE! And it’s a pity that all this is already in the irrevocable past.
  64. 0
    5 October 2018 12: 26
    The Soviet command did not know the operational situation that had developed at night before the counterstrike, as well as how the enemy entrenched itself on the achieved lines. The extensive reconnaissance was not conducted and the command did not have a detailed picture of the state of the enemy before the front of the tank army at the time of the start of the strike.
    What sources did the author use when writing the article, or is it his own imagination? sad