More than a century of adventure

134
“We all thought that the issue of war and peace depended on us, and overlooked Japan’s stubborn determination to defend its demands with vital importance for this country ...”
A.N. Kuropatkin. Russian-Japanese war


More than a century of adventure




Waste war

It is believed that the Russian-Japanese conflict, which then flowed into a difficult and completely ignominious war for our country, was completely unnecessary for Russia. However, this statement hardly corresponds to the full extent of reality.

Any one of us very rarely (and, as a rule, only in completely crisis circumstances) can accurately and confidently determine his own goals and inclinations. And the foreign and domestic policies of the whole state are made up of the hidden desires and aspirations of such a mass of people that only time can establish the true background of the events.

In fact (as it happens very, very often) that war was the kindest of intentions.

In the second half of the XIX century, Russia was practically defenseless in the Far East. By the way, Sakhalin was defended by three teams totaling about a thousand people; Vladivostok was completely devoid of serious military force, and in the entire Amur region there were only 19 infantry battalions. And this huge land with the European part of the empire connected only a dirt path over nine thousand miles long! Those were many months of the journey - and the most difficult.

And in 1875, the Committee of Ministers heard the question of the construction of the Siberian railway. At first it was supposed to pull to Tyumen, but Alexander III orders to lay the highway through the whole of Siberia. Initially (and quite logically) it was supposed to lead her across Russian territory.

However, in 1894, the armed conflict of Japan and China erupts, which ends a year later with the defeat of the latter. China finds itself in a difficult and delicate situation, and then, among a circle of Russian politicians, a witty, as it seemed to them, plan: to strengthen, taking advantage of the moment, the position of Russia in the Far East and at the same time save a lot on the construction of the railway. The first violin in this venture was played by the wise and very influential Finance Minister S.Yu. Witte.

Taking advantage of the fact that China desperately needed funds to repay Japan, the Minister of Finance, through diplomatic circles, agreed with the French to provide a fair loan to the ill-fated Chinese.

Then they created a Russian-Chinese bank, which was actually run by the same finance ministry. And to top it all agreed that part of the Siberian road (1200 miles) will go through Chinese territory - North Manchuria. S.Y. Witte justified this decision by the fact that, by cutting the laying of tracks directly, the treasury would save 15 million rubles. In addition - the decisive argument! - The main financier of the country assured the king: the road will be of global importance. Russia will be able to carry transit cargoes of foreign powers and earn huge amounts of money.

The future showed how far-sighted this finance minister was.

Meanwhile, the defeated China was very weak, and in 1897, foreign warships entered the Chinese port of Qingdao. Chains from anchor hawses with a roar went to the depths. The standards of Kaiser Germany, rare in this region, were waving above the ships - yes, the interests of many powers were tightly knotted here. And it must be said that it was precisely the Russian ships that used the advantage of the anchorage before in Qingdao. The situation that arose was, to put it mildly, delicate.

However, the output found.

China was once again divided: Port Arthur withdrew to Russia, and Qingdao remained for Kaiser Wilhelm. Russia hastily concluded a lease agreement with Beijing on the Liaodong Peninsula, which in these conditions was absolutely necessary for the construction of the southern branch of the railway - that is, right up to Port Arthur.

At first, everything went perfectly, especially for the Minister of Finance: the East China Railway (VKZhD) was built at an accelerated pace, and really it was managed by none other than Mr. S.Yu. Witte. To guard the road, a special guard building was created, subordinated to him personally; The Minister of Finance also created a commercial fleet to serve the interests of the road, and, in turn, to protect it, a small military flotilla. Even the rifle and artillery systems weaponsused for the needs of the guard, the minister chose personally, not considering it necessary to coordinate this matter with the military ministry.

Little by little in the Far East, in Manchuria, a small empire grew, which was fostered and controlled exclusively by S.Yu. Witte.

But problems arose: the road was not at all as lucrative as it was expected. To transport goods by the sea was more familiar and, of course, cheaper. And for the most part, a few travelers rolled through the pot, but the state-owned post was shaking under wax. Most of all, the road was suitable for transporting troops, but so far there has been no particular need. True, the situation was soon to change radically.

Ugly things

The influential retired Secretary of State Bezobraz received a concession for deforestation along the Russian-Korean (as well as the Korean-Chinese) border. It was a very profitable business - there was a surplus of extremely cheap labor, whose resources were inexhaustible. And for the transportation of the forest just built the road was useful. Bezobrazov, a man of adventurous warehouse and very active, found a full understanding of his problems with the Minister of Finance, and money flowed.

But, as you know, not all the Shrovetide cat.

Very inopportunely in China begin popular unrest. It came to the point that part of the roadway was destroyed, and the security guard forces were completely inadequate. As a result, the guard was simply blocked by the rebels in Harbin. But even then, the Minister of Finance resisted the introduction of Russian regular troops. Finally, in the fall of 1900, the hundred-thousandth army was pulled down to restore order in Manchuria, and the military quickly brought order.

It was then that the entire fallacy of laying the national Transsiberian highway partly on the territory of a foreign state became apparent - it was only possible to protect the road from armed unrest, or even the usual arbitrariness of the Chinese authorities. Which led gradually to the actual occupation of the North and then South Manchuria by the Russians.

But it is already very much strained Japan.

The fact is that the strengthening of the Russians in southern Manchuria was quite rightly perceived by the Land of the Rising Sun as penetration into Korea - the territory of which Japan has always considered as a zone of its vital interests.

China, too, did not like the presence of foreign regular troops, and relations with Beijing were steadily deteriorating. In April (26 March old style) 1902, St. Petersburg reluctantly was forced to sign an agreement on the withdrawal of troops in three phases for 18 months.

However, there is no reason to believe that the Russian government deliberately went to fraud in advance. Anyway, A.N. Kuropatkin, then Minister of War, wrote that for his department this decision was a great relief, because it allowed him to “return to the West” in military affairs.

The withdrawal of troops has already begun, but was unexpectedly stopped. And this decision coincided with the time of Bezobrazov’s trip to the Far East.

The retired secretary of state and his entourage increasingly intensified the onslaught on Nicholas II, persuading the king to leave troops in Manchuria and Korea. Which is quite understandable: for the adventurer Bezobrazov, who had developed furious activities with his concession, to remain without the support of the troops meant losing a profitable business. The Minister of Finance, in turn, said that “after an explanation with State Secretary Bezobrazov, he is essentially not in disagreement with him.”

Thus the issue was resolved.

The Concession of Bezobravo became increasingly stronger in Korea, causing the fury of the Japanese. The situation was complicated by the fact that among the employees of the concession were Russian soldiers and officers, and this was perceived by Tokyo as a direct military invasion of the territory of their protectorate.

However, Japan should not be perceived that time as an exclusively peaceful country, which was forced to protect its interests.

Inspired by the victory over China, Japan was preparing an even wider expansion to the mainland, and consistently moved in this direction.

The pinnacle of Japanese diplomacy at that time was the signing of an allied treaty with England in 1902. The second article of the document provided for the provision of military assistance to each of the parties in the event that the other turns out to be in a state of war with two or more third countries.

Now Japan could not be afraid that France or Germany would support Russia in the event of war: under the agreement, England should come to help her immediately.

Meanwhile, Russia continued to conduct sluggishly ongoing negotiations with Japan on controversial issues — above all, the presence of Russians in Korea and China. Every day the situation was increasingly slipping into war, but the world could still be saved.

November 26 1903, Minister of War A.N. Kuropatkin gave the king a note in which he proposed, in order to avoid war, to return Port Arthur to China, to sell the southern branch of the Eastern Railway, and in exchange to receive special rights to Northern Manchuria.

The meaning of the proposal was to remove the hotbed of tension on the border with Korea. But at that moment the governor of Nicholas II, the adjutant general (in addition also the admiral) EI, was in charge of the negotiations. Alekseev is the illegitimate son of Emperor Alexander II. Arrogant and incompetent, he was still that negotiator. The governor did not recognize any concessions to the Japanese side, considering it as a loss to the prestige of the empire.

But very soon, Russia was to endure much greater humiliation.

On the sea

The peculiarity of the situation was that both sides had to fight in very remote theaters. Russia was separated from the fronts by a colossal land area, and Japan, although not so significant, by the sea.

The goals of Japan in the upcoming war boiled down to the seizure of Port Arthur, the ousting of the Russians from Korea and Manchuria. Looking ahead, we say that all these goals were achieved consistently and with rare, almost paralogical cruelty.

In the upcoming campaign, the Russian fleet was assigned a mission absolutely exceptional. If the fleet managed to act actively on Japanese communications, there would be no land war. Because the landing operations of the Japanese would be impossible.

However, everything turned out differently.

6 February 1904, the Japanese squadron under the flag of Vice-Admiral Togo went to the open sea. Along the way, she stopped and captured the merchant ship “Russia” - a very significant event.

... February 8 Russian squadron in Port Arthur stood on the outer roadstead. The boilers are extinguished, there are no mine barriers. In addition, the outdoor lighting on the ships is turned on - as if on the day of namesake.

The Japanese struck at night, without a declaration of war. In the matter went two waves of destroyers. The result was devastating: two battleships failed, and with them five cruisers.

After that, the fleet did not dare to go into the open sea for a long time, limiting itself to short sorties. And a couple of days later, the minelayer “Yenisei” was blown up on its own mine. To the rescue of his team, the light cruiser Boyarin set off - and shared the fate of the ill-fated minelayer. The brave crew of the cruiser instantly lowered the boats and abandoned the ship. And the unfortunate "Boyar" remained afloat for two more days. He was finished by a storm and the second mine ...

March 31 in the course of another attack on a mine, the flagship Petropavlovsk was blown up. Battleship went under the water with the whole team. Admiral Stepan Osipovich Makarov died - a brilliant, extraordinary naval commander, able to change the situation so unfortunately for the Russians. But Russia, along with other circumstances, was fatally unlucky in this war.

By blocking the 1 Pacific Squadron in Port Arthur, the Japanese solved their most important task.

But the bureaucratic, bureaucratic Petersburg remained true to itself: instead of giving the troops an initiative, throughout the entire war he literally tied hand and foot with orders through the governor and directly his commanders. Admiral Rozhestvensky, commander of the 2 Pacific Squadron, which was still to go through Tsushima hell, reported: "I can not command a squadron without freedom of command."

But it was all in vain.

On August 10, locked in Port Arthur, the 1-I Pacific squadron under the command of Rear Admiral Vitgefta, obeying the highest command, made a desperate attempt to break through to Vladivostok. Her strength, although partly lost, was large enough to adequately respond to the Japanese. The fight was given to both sides very expensive. An hour and a half later, the admiral of Togo, having decided that he could do nothing more and the Russians would inevitably break through, ordered his ships to retreat to the base at Sasebo.

Literally at this moment 305-mm Japanese projectile fired at random, hit the foremast of the battleship Tsesarevich, on which he held his flag Vitgeft. The explosion occurred right above the admiral's bridge. Together with Vitgeft, his entire headquarters was almost completely killed. The captain was also injured. In addition, the splash cable was broken by a splinter, and the uncontrollable battleship, describing the circulation, began to roll out to the left.

This broke the squadron, and the ships of the Russians randomly retreated. As a combat force, the 1-I Pacific almost ceased to exist.

True, a detachment of cruisers remained in Vladivostok: "Russia", "Rurik" and "Thunderer". The new commander of the Pacific Fleet (of which there was already no actual one) Vice Admiral P.I. Skrydlov 13 August, not knowing about the defeat of the 1-th squadron, sent his cruisers to meet her. He entrusted the command to Admiral Jessen, while he himself wisely remained on the shore. What this was done for is difficult to understand. The cruisers could not help the Witgeft squadron; that is why they were left in Vladivostok so that they independently acted on Japanese communications.

Three Russian cruisers in the Korean Strait met four Japanese armored. "Rurik" drowned, the rest fled.

Everything. Now Japan could manage the sea at its discretion.

On the land

Since June 1904, Port Arthur has been under heavy blockade. By December, the city withstood five assaults. Russian machine guns mowed down chains of Japanese infantry, laying thousands on the ground, but it again rose and climbed on the fortified hills. Finally, the Japanese dragged siege 280-mm guns to the fortress and began methodically shooting the forts.

General Kuropatkin from Manchuria tried to break through to the blocked Port Arthur, but the Russian army did not cope with this task.

Meanwhile, the hardening of the parties reached the limit, in the Japanese parts there were cases of suicide and open disobedience. But the bestial ruthlessness of the Japanese to the enemy’s soldiers and their own, as well as the failures of the Russians in Manchuria, resolved the matter.

1 January 1905 was the last fort of Port Arthur, after which the adjutant general A.M. Stoessel signed an order for the surrender of the garrison.

In general, it was shameful, but sensible. Further resistance only multiplied the victims. To assist the army and navy Port Arthur was powerless.

With his fall, further hostilities, both for the Russians and for the Japanese, became to some extent meaningless. The Japanese army no longer had strategic land missions, and for Kuropatkin to recapture Port Arthur was absolutely incredible.

In fact, the Japanese have already achieved everything they wanted. More than anything, they now needed peace. But the war machine is a mechanism with colossal inertia. To stop him, it took another catastrophe.

... In the battle of Mukden, the forces of the Japanese and Russians made up about 300 thousands of bayonets on each side. After three days of fighting, the Japanese overturned the right flank of the Russians. In March 1905, Kuropatkin retreated to Harbin, leaving thousands of 100 killed.

More active battles on land did not occur.

Cusima

Of the ships of the Baltic Fleet were 2 th Pacific Squadron. Her task was to release Port Arthur. The ships entered the sea only in August, and the squadron could not arrive in the Far East no earlier than March. By then, for Port Arthur, it was all over; Thus, the campaign of the Baltic Fleet from the very beginning was devoid of meaning. But the rock and St. Petersburg officials seemed to set out to drive the ill-fated squadron through all the circles of hell.

Russia was in international isolation, Britain and France banned Russian ships from entering their ports, and the squadron under the overall command of Vice Admiral ZP Rozhestvensky walked across the Indian Ocean.

Work in the unusual climate of the tropics exhausted the team. In February, 1905, Z.P. Rozhestvensky reported to Petersburg: "... the squadron eats itself and decomposes physically and morally."

The admiral was well aware of his chances. With the fall of Port Arthur, they became completely small. He tried to explain to St. Petersburg with hints that a strong squadron that was on the march could still be used as a trump card for the conclusion of a worthy peace. But the broken squadron will pull to the bottom and all the diplomacy.

However, in the ultimatum he was ordered to follow to Vladivostok, and in the shortest possible time.

2-I Pacific squadron included 8 squadron battleships, 8 cruisers, 9 destroyers and a number of auxiliary ships. But even of battleships, only 4 were modern, the rest were obsolete low-speed coastal defense ships. Because of their low speed, the squadron could not develop full speed. The crews did not differ in their training - the haste of recruiting teams, and, most importantly, the open fear of officers, too, “strain” the lower ranks with combat training, did not cause unrest. The revolutionary ideas picked up in Kronstadt matured and grew during the campaign.

Writer Novikov-Priboy (former sailor on the battleship "Eagle") in the famous novel "Tsushima" blames the fate of the squadron exclusively on stupid officers who are not able to realize the simplest things. Say, and the black coloring of the ships (as opposed to the gray Japanese), and bad artillery, and the inability of officers to manage in the ranks caused the death of the fleet.

But this is nothing more than the fabrications of a deck sailor propagandized by the Bolsheviks. The Admiral Rozhestvensky and his officers understood everything and provided for a lot. The black coloring of the ships was maintained, as the squadron's breakthrough was planned at night. The artillery of the Russian ships was excellent, the Russian armor-piercing shells were rightly considered the best in the world — and the Japanese themselves recognized this. As for the maneuvers, the sailors themselves doomed their commanders to a minimum of exercises with their behavior.

However, the admiral's hard disposition played a role. He was very secretive - this may have been explained by the sad fate of the Vitgeft squadron, about which Russian newspapers in Port Arthur were notified the day before. Therefore Rozhestvensky kept the battle plan exclusively in his head. When he was seriously wounded, many of the commanders of the ships, not knowing the general plan, acted at random.

But the main role was played by the choice of the path.

It was possible to bypass Japan and break through to the Vladivostok through the Kuril Straits. There, the probability of meeting with the main forces of the enemy was almost negligible. Or - go ahead through the Tsushima Strait, in the immediate vicinity of the bases of the Japanese fleet, ready for a meeting, with fresh crews.

However, the order from St. Petersburg read: as soon as possible to get to Vladivostok! And 14 May 1905, Admiral Rozhestvensky chose the second option. In many ways, this has decided the fate of the 2 Pacific squadron.

... Only the Almaz cruiser, the Bravy and the Terrible destroyers broke through to Vladivostok.

Portsmouth World

The peace agreement, to which the lost fleet, Russia and Japan with its war-torn economy, were equally striving, was signed 6 September 1905 of the year in Portsmouth (USA). Russia left Port Arthur, left Manchuria and lost half of Sakhalin. However, she could have left the island behind herself, but here too the restless S.Yu. Witte.

First, the Russian delegation rejected the request for the transfer of Sakhalin. But Nicholas II, seeing that negotiations come to a standstill, said that in the extremes one could sacrifice half of the island. Witte did not hesitate and immediately offered the Japanese on this option. From where he received later the nickname “Polusakhalinsky”.

And what about Petersburg? Is heartbroken?

Not at all. Here, everything remained the same.

The headquarters knew that the people in Tsushima were killed "very much", but how many exactly they did not know for two months. And just in case, ALL (!) Seafarers' families stopped paying money. Whoever wanted, had to prove himself that he was alive ...

This is very significant. From the very beginning of the war, the attitude towards it in the widest strata of society was far from patriotic.

V. Veresaev wrote: “Around, in the intelligentsia, there was a hostile irritation not at all against the Japanese. The question of the outcome of the war did not bother, there was no trace of enmity with the Japanese, our failures did not oppress; on the contrary, next to the pain for insanely unnecessary sacrifices was almost gloating. Many bluntly stated that defeat would be the most beneficial for Russia. ” (On the Japanese War. Notes.)

According to the German journalist G. Ganz, who worked in Petersburg in those years, it was not only the liberals ', but also many Russian conservatives' innermost thoughts: “God help us to be overwhelmed!”

However, that there are liberals! Pompous S.YU. Witte in July 1904 of the year declared with frank cynicism: “I fear fast and brilliant Russian successes; they would have made the leading St. Petersburg circles too arrogant ... Russia should still experience several military failures. ”

It seems that Russia lost the war because she wanted it.

Finale

We live in a world built by past wars. And the current weakness of Russia in the Far East is largely due to the adventure in which the country got involved more than a hundred years ago.

But it's not only that.

Looking back into the past: the beginnings of the seventeenth, eighteenth and nineteenth centuries passed under the sign of severe military upheavals — the country experienced a Time of Troubles, a war with Sweden, then with Napoleon. The twentieth century brought the Russian-Japanese and the First World War.

What shocks will the 21 century bring us?

Only local conflicts? I'd like to believe.
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134 comments
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  1. +9
    9 July 2018 05: 54
    Or maybe you shouldn’t rush into the water without knowing the ford? "Parological", i.e. unreasonable, without any logical justification, I’m not sure that this is not a typo, an outing of Admiral Makarov, only 4 are the latest, the rest of the coastal defense and further pearls only discouraged reading.
    PS And magnificent, but very light, armor-piercing shells of the Russian type are generally a parable in the languages, all in turn replicate this myth, without delving into their technical parameters.
    1. +2
      9 July 2018 09: 26
      Russia, as a powerful world power, could easily crush the Japs on land, but Nikolai2 personally gave the order to end the war.
      1. 0
        9 July 2018 13: 59
        Quote: Bar1
        Russia, as a powerful world power, could easily crush the Japs on land, but Nikolai2 personally gave the order to end the war.


        There was no one to command, one Kondratenko was worth something; the others were slag.
        1. 0
          9 July 2018 14: 23
          Quote: Hiking
          Quote: Bar1
          Russia, as a powerful world power, could easily crush the Japs on land, but Nikolai2 personally gave the order to end the war.


          There was no one to command, one Kondratenko was worth something; the others were slag.



          it never happened that in Russia, which always fought there would be no commander.
          1. +1
            9 July 2018 14: 42
            So, after all, no real general was found in Russian-Japanese.
            1. +1
              9 July 2018 16: 30
              Let's just say the generals were, but they have not yet grown to the commander-in-chief.
              1. +2
                9 July 2018 18: 42
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Let's just say the generals were, but they have not yet grown to the commander-in-chief.

                Well, what does Kuropatkin not suit you for? Okay youth, they have read mursilok. But you are kind of a seasoned person, you understand what’s what.
                1. +1
                  10 July 2018 09: 28
                  Kuropatkin was a representative of the Dragomirov school, completely outdated by this moment. Moreover, he did not have the determination of the latter and the willingness to stand to the end. He would have the chief of staff ... at the white general.
                  It’s a pity that Mikhail Dmitrievich didn’t live; he would have just turned 60. The heyday of a warlord.
                  But the most important blunder in mobilization plans.
                  1. +1
                    10 July 2018 16: 46
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Kuropatkin was a representative of the Dragomirov School,

                    Well, I do not. Skobelevets. Write you and Skobeleva in the "Dragomirov School" write

                    Moreover, he did not have the determination of the latter and the willingness to stand to the end.

                    Normally, he had everything. There is no need for "decisiveness" when confronting the blitzkrieg --- when blitzkrieg, you just need to withstand the first surge --- then they themselves will die.
                    And they died (in fact)
                    Kuropatkin did everything right --- absolutely without risk

                    He would have the chief of staff ... at the white general.

                    What he was all his life

                    But the most important blunder in mobilization plans.

                    I also don’t see mistakes. Everything is fine.
                    Miss: Bagrov was not found somewhere in 1896. (Or earlier) That was a mistake. But here ....
                    1. 0
                      11 July 2018 11: 44
                      Do you think Skobelev would have retreated near Liaolian?
                      1. 0
                        17 July 2018 20: 27
                        Are you hinting so much that Dragomirov (who “taught a fool's bullet - pieces of youngsters" until the WWII taught) would have retreated?

                        So Kuropatkin correctly retreated: then the Japanese were still ready to put half a army for a decisive victory. And why would the Russians suffer such losses? But half a year later, after Mukden, Japanese decisiveness ended.

                        That is, IMHO, the exchange of 1.5 to 1, and even 2 to 1, the Japanese would have arranged near Liaolian. But the Russians - no: Kuropatkin could not afford high losses.
            2. +1
              9 July 2018 16: 39
              Quote: Hiking
              So, after all, no real general was found in Russian-Japanese.

              Pretty strange statement. And it hardly has something in common with reality.

              Firstly, Kuropatkin was much more professional than judged by the hasty people. And the rest were quite on the level. But the “second general echelon" was Ivanov, Alekseev ... Just for example.
            3. 0
              9 July 2018 16: 50
              Quote: Hiking
              So, after all, no real general was found in Russian-Japanese.


              who wants to seek an opportunity, and who does not want a reason.
      2. +1
        9 July 2018 20: 49
        the sailors themselves, by their behavior, doomed the commanders to a minimum of exercise.
        TEAM WINS. LOSES THE COACH (COMMANDER)
  2. +12
    9 July 2018 06: 00
    the road was not at all as profitable as expected. Carrying goods by sea was more common and, of course, cheaper. And for the most part, a few travelers rolled on the cast iron, but the state mail shook under the wax.
    If it is more profitable, then why, after the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway, did the development of the Far East begin at an explosive pace? belay After all, the sea is "faster" and "more profitable"
    And there were so few travelers that they, especially for the arrival of trains in Port Arthur, were waiting for ocean liners to transport to Japan and America.
    and. S.Yu. Witte justified this decision by the fact that by cutting the laying of tracks directly, the treasury will save 15 million rubles.

    If they were building on the territory of Russia, then they simply would NOT have time to reach the railway station to the Far East and Port Arthur to the RVE: just look at the duration of the construction of the branch on the territory of Russia afterwards.
    In this case, without the possibility of transferring troops along the railway, and the Far East would simply be lost for Russia ....
    Meanwhile, Russia continued to negotiate sluggishly with Japan on controversial issues - primarily about the presence of Russians in Korea and China. Every day the situation was increasingly slipping into war, but the world could still be saved.
    November 26, 1903 Minister of War A.N. Kuropatkin handed over to the tsar a note in which he proposed, in order to avoid war, return to China Port Arthur, sell the southern branch of the VKZhD, and in exchange receive special rights to Northern Manchuria.

    The original way to save the world is to give up! belay Russia was in Korea on absolutely LEGAL grounds, unlike Japan, pursuing its interests and not threatening ANYONE: Korea is not Japanese land.
    It seems that Russia lost the war because wanted this.
    This pearl is generally beyond.
    Russia lost because it had just stood on these lines: only 40 years ago, in the place of the future Vladivostok, a virgin forest was rustling and there was not a single Russian person. Japan to Korea was next to the sea, and Russia, many, many thousands of kilometers
    Speaking of "unpatriotism" in Russia, one can recall the famous Russian waltz "On the hills of Manchuria" and its popularity so far. With unpatriotism, such things do not appear.
    1. +2
      9 July 2018 12: 35
      Quote: “The black color of the ships was preserved, since the breakthrough of the squadron was planned at night. The artillery of the Russian ships was excellent, the Russian armor-piercing shells were rightly considered the best in the world,” is an example of the author’s “creativity”. Why black paint is better at night in a gray camouflage, or with the Japanese fleet intended to meet only on a moonless night. About artillery, the rate of fire of the Japanese artillery was disproportionately higher, and this is the main indicator, not to mention rangefinder and other services (Tables of shots and hits) and so on. You need to know the state of the officer corps of the RI fleet, because the fleet went reluctantly, and therefore the composition didn’t shine (to that, during the revolution, most officers were thrown overboard, or even killed), So Novikov -Surf is not so wrong. The author’s attempt to present events in the form of condensate with qualitative generalizations is commendable, it sins with some errors in the absence of elaboration of the text.
      1. Alf
        +4
        9 July 2018 20: 53
        Quote: Vladimir 5
        Russian armor-piercing shells were rightly considered the best in the world "

        Now, if they also exploded ...
        1. +2
          9 July 2018 21: 34
          Contrary to popular belief, the shells exploded, there was an increased percentage of “oak” shells at the 2 TOE, but nonetheless, the Japanese were not all right with the shells either. That did not explode, then exploded right in the trunks. In addition, accuracy must be taken into account, if Mikasa received about ten shells under Tsushima, the same Eagle, according to various estimates, from 20 to 30 shells in caliber 8-12 inches, the sunken latest armadillos obviously received no less. But in addition to this, there was also a large average caliber of armadillos and cruisers.
          PS "Mikasa" as flagship ogreb maximum number of hits, the rest of the Japanese ships of the line received much less hits
          1. Alf
            +3
            9 July 2018 21: 37
            And where does it mean, if it was about unexploded RUSSIAN armor-piercing shells?
            1. +2
              9 July 2018 21: 46
              Well, they would explode, then what? Once again, Russian armor-piercing projectile weighing 331 kg (12 inches) - 5,3 kg of pyroxylin - 10 hits in the battleship "Mikasa", ebr "Eagle" - 10 hits of Japanese shells in 386 kg, with an explosive charge in 19 kg of melinite, or with half armor-piercing kg of black gunpowder + 39 hits of 10 "shells, which are slightly lighter. At the same time, I remind you that the entire squadron concentrated on Mikas, and the" Eagle "in fact got only passages. The problem is not in shells or iron, the problem is in people (although with iron was also enough problems, I do not argue)
              PS And shells exploded, albeit once
              1. Alf
                +2
                9 July 2018 21: 54
                Quote: Yakov Volgushev
                PS And shells exploded, albeit once

                "On board Asahi." When the boat with the captured Russian sailors approached Asahi, on board were visible 8 (EIGHT) hits of Russian shells that did not explode. Is not
                Quote: Yakov Volgushev
                through time
                1. +1
                  9 July 2018 22: 06
                  Oak fuses, by the way, it’s from the same opera as a shell that didn’t explode, rolling around the casemate. Just one question: how was it determined that these were shells that, moreover, did not explode? Armor-piercing shells had such fuses of this type that they exploded only after penetration of the armor, if there is penetration, then the shells exploded inside the case, if there is no penetration, but are there dents, did these shells explode unclearly or simply drowned? By the way, it was precisely on the Asahi that the artillery officer of the ship was killed by the fragments of a nearby exploding shell.
            2. 0
              17 July 2018 22: 22
              And what percentage of Russian shells did not explode - what do you think?
          2. 0
            10 July 2018 09: 47
            Contrary to popular belief, shells exploded; there was an increased percentage of “oak” shells at 2 TOE

            How can you confirm this with numbers?
            The shells were the same there and there, but pay attention to the content of the explosive and the weight of the shell.

            In any case, Russian shells in this ratio cannot be more effective than Japanese, despite the formally better armor penetration.
            1. 0
              10 July 2018 10: 36
              I am aware that Beijingham has references to the quality of shells, if I am not mistaken, there is just a conversation about every third shell without explosion. About the "same" shells, I also wrote above
            2. 0
              17 July 2018 22: 28
              And personally, what do you mean by efficiency - I suppose only the power of the explosion?
              Yes, indeed, in this regard, the Japanese shells were stronger. But why have they never been able to break through the armor of Russian ships?
              And is it possible to sink an armored ship without breaking through its armor?
              1. 0
                18 July 2018 19: 06
                Easy, it was perfectly shown by the Oslyabya EBR, it is unlikely that his armor belt was broken. As for not breaking through the armor of Russian ships, the Japanese mainly used high-explosive shells, the task of which was not to break through the armor, although the ammunition also contained armor-piercing shells of the English type, which again exceeded the light armor-piercing shells of the Russian type in effectiveness, although they were inferior in armor-piercing distance to 30 kb
                1. 0
                  25 July 2018 06: 15
                  You see what the matter is: in the previous battles before the Tsushima, the Japanese had other shells. That is, most of them did not explode at all - this was confirmed by the shelling of Vladivostok, when several Japanese shells fell into the city but did not explode. And although one of them got into an apartment building and killed ten people, this does not mean that it exploded. just an unexploded shell acted like a blank and destroyed the house. And from the fact that the house was destroyed in it, people died, and not at all from the explosion of a shell. And all the boobs think that the Japanese shells exploded. About 2000 unexploded ordnance were found in Port Arthur (and how many still fell into the water of the bay — no one was looking for them!) And from these Japanese unexploded ordnance, Port Arthurians took out explosives and equipped their mines with it. But unfortunately in the Vladivostok and Port Arthur newspapers, the Russians openly laughed at the Japanese shells, and Japanese spies told the headquarters that their shells were not exploding.
                  Whereas in reality many Russian shells did not explode either - but the Russian officers did not know anything about this until the most famous Vladivostok experiments made before Tsushima, which they did not even know about at the Rozhestvensky squadron.
                  But the Japanese command demanded to improve the quality of the shells - to make them explode. However, it was impossible to make new thousands of shells. And then the Japanese engineers simply unscrewed the fuses and put a thinner safety spring in them. And from this, Japanese shells began to explode beautifully from the slightest contact. But all these experiments have been classified and remain unknown to history buffs to this day. And with such beautifully exploding shells, the Japanese defeated the Russian fleet in Tsushima, while in the previous battle in the Yellow Sea with shells with tight fuses they failed to sink a single ship.
    2. +1
      9 July 2018 13: 44
      Olgovich, thank you for the good comment: dismantled on all counts
  3. +9
    9 July 2018 06: 10
    The emperor decided to engage in colonialism imperialism. But the enemy chose too tough for him. It's one thing to drive the Basmachi in Central Asia is another matter with the new Asian tiger.
    You can justify any takeover. But being economically prepared for takeover is somewhat different. Even taking advantage of China’s weaknesses, they could not advance their greedy interests.
    The defeat from the Yaps showed the weakness of empire Russia and made it a secondary value in the big game.
    1. +10
      9 July 2018 09: 08
      Quote: apro
      The emperor decided to engage in colonialism imperialism. But the enemy chose his own teeth too tough.


      Do not say nonsense. It was not a matter of colonialism, but of providing a strategic buffer between the Russian Far East and Japanese possessions in China. If it were not for the expansion of Russia in Manchuria, then the war would not be remembered for the siege of Port Arthur, but of Vladivostok and Khabarovsk.
      Quote: apro
      The defeat from the Yaps showed the weakness of empire Russia and made it a secondary value in the big game.

      Well, as it were, the defeat was essentially the result of the actions of the "patriotic" socialist fighters who launched a terrorist war in the rear of the warring motherland.
      1. +10
        9 July 2018 09: 21
        Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
        Colonialism wasn’t the point,

        But it’s necessary to justify nicely ... strategy. Well, but it doesn’t change the essence. Not having the economic power to develop the Russian territories proper, the ampirator took advantage of China’s weakness and climbed to annex manchuria. Well, a wise decision. And the result is appropriate. . Pursue a competent resettlement policy. Invest in their own land.
        Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
        Well, as it were, the defeat was essentially the result of the actions of the "patriotic" socialist fighters who launched a terrorist war in the rear of the warring motherland.

        That’s who the main culprit is ... the socialists didn’t let the admirals break the yap at times; they drew plans at the head of Kuropatkin’s office and gave orders. They didn’t give the order to transfer the personnel reserve from west to east. They thought they had to hand over the portlet to Port Arthur.
        No words ...
        1. +8
          9 July 2018 10: 26
          Quote: apro
          And you need to justify nicely ... strategy. Well, well. But it doesn’t change the essence. Without having the economic power to master the actual Russian territories

          Sorry, but you seem to be living in an alternate reality. Is it that Russia did not have the power to develop its own territories? Here is the news!
          And yes, you still did not understand the essence of the imperial government’s occupation of Manchuria: to provide cover for the Russian territories of the Far East proper. So that the inevitable war does not go on Russian, but on Manchu land, do you understand this or not?
          Quote: apro
          That's who the main culprit .. it is the socialists who did not let the admirals smash yap

          And again you did not understand the essence of my words. The Japanese attacked the Russian troops suddenly, without declaring war. Far East was far from the best forces, because the main potential opponents of Russia were in Europe. Russia began the transfer of forces to the Far East, including personnel and reserve units. But ... the supply of this group depended on the operability of the Trans-Siberian Railway and the work of defense plants in the European part of Russia. Linevich in the summer of 1905 was ready to give the final battle to the Japanese, which would defeat them (and the Japanese themselves admit it). That's just the supply of a huge group under his command began to junk because of the terror and strikes unleashed by traitors-socialists.
          1. +7
            9 July 2018 11: 24
            As I understand it, zavat of someone else’s territory is not a crime? Imposing unequal treaties is petty pranks? There is nothing to say. If the ampirator connected Manzhuria to Russia it would be a different matter.
            Regarding economic power ... working on the trans-railway train on old buildings, the figure was 1915 1916 it was the years of commissioning the station property. The trans was completed during the First World War. And with the help of America. Bridge designs were brought from there. Japan started the war in response to the advancement of Russia in Korea. although it couldn’t do it by mutual agreements. China was divided, but it seemed a little to someone.
            I like these military excuses. Suddenly. What speaks of extreme non-professionalism. You guys have weapons. Skills ... What else do you need to win?

            Of course, the strikes prevented the generals from breaking the Japs. But who created such working and pay conditions that created such a strain in society. Who put the peasantry on the brink of survival with land reforms? What did the yapes of money give everyone to rebel? Did he assign everyone a socialist?
            And who are the socialists? And why are there so many of them divorced? From Mars attacked? Or yapi sent?
            1. +4
              10 July 2018 09: 33
              Quote: apro
              As I understand it, the zavat of someone else’s territory is not a crime?

              name the same "captured" Russian territory, a fighter against Russian colonialism and imperialism.
              Siberia, by the way, is also a seized territory? And what else are you ready to give from Russia to the “true” owners? fool
            2. 0
              14 July 2018 23: 38
              Quote: apro
              the imposition of non-equal treaties is petty pranks?
              No, this is a common international practice of the winners.
          2. +1
            9 July 2018 13: 59
            Tatarin, regarding: “Linevich in the summer of 1905 was ready to give the final battle to the Japanese, which would defeat them ...” You did strategic ones from Linevich, but Denikin did not see something of the military talent from him. But the fact that the Japanese could not stand this battle is a fact.
            1. 0
              9 July 2018 16: 43
              Quote: Royalist
              Denikin, for some reason did not see the talents of the leader among him.

              And who is Denikin to judge? Did he, somewhere, shine with "military talents"? And where?
        2. +3
          9 July 2018 14: 05
          Apro, read the book Challenge: "Japanese espionage in Russia" You will be surprised: the Japanese used the revolutionaries for their own purposes. Their plans were "Napoleonic"
          1. 0
            11 July 2018 10: 02
            Quote: Royalist
            the Japanese used the revolutionaries to their advantage. "

            Yes, not the Japanese: where did the Japanese have such agility?
            The British. (Unless the money went Japanese --- the British do not like to pay their money.)
      2. The comment was deleted.
  4. +9
    9 July 2018 06: 12
    Quote: Olgovich

    Russia lost because it had just risen on these frontiers: only 40 years ago, on the site of the future Vladivostok, a nine-member lem was rustling and there was not a single Russian person. Japan to Korea was near and by sea, Russia, many thousands of kilometers
    Speaking of "unpatriotism" in Russia, one can recall the famous Russian waltz "On the hills of Manchuria" and its popularity so far.

    I’m not sure that the reason for the loss is only in time, it is more a matter of a systemic crisis in the RIF, qualifications, cost savings, ships in reserve, officers who have little idea how the machine or the optical sight works and why it is needed at all. General training at the level of the Crimean and Russian-Turkish war, the fleet is preparing to fight a pistol race, the situation is the same in the army. And in the second half of the war, it’s just a plugging of gaps for everyone, 2 and 3 TOEs are equipped with reservists and storekeepers, some of Kuropatkin’s regiments are also out of stock, they should be put together and prepared, and they’ll be thrown into a meat grinder immediately.
    1. +9
      9 July 2018 09: 30
      Quote: Yakov Volgushev
      the reason for the loss is only in time, it is more a matter of a systemic crisis in the RIF, qualifications, cost savings, ships in reserve, officers who have little idea how a machine or an optical sight works and why it is needed at all. General training at the level of the Crimean and Russian-Turkish war, the fleet is preparing to fight a pistol race, the situation is the same in the army. And in the second half of the war, it’s just a plugging of gaps for everyone, 2 and 3 TOEs are equipped with reservists and storekeepers, some of Kuropatkin’s regiments are also out of stock, they need to be coordinated and prepared, and they are immediately thrown into a meat grinder.

      Everything is the same to the beginning of World War I. And, as it were, the Olgovichi didn’t varnish the flaws and, frankly, the Akhov state of affairs in the Republic of Ingushetia, the result was a natural loss of the Russo-Japanese, inadequate modern state of the army and country as a whole by the beginning of World War I.
      "In 1914, according to Kommersant newspaper, the export of goods from Russia amounted to 351 thousand rubles, while the import amounted to 472 thousand rubles. [403] What this could have turned into and turned out to be emotionally expressed in the conditions of war, the newspaper" Army Herald ", which wrote in February 544:" Industry. Before the war, it was not in accordance with the size or natural wealth of the world's largest state. The urgent needs of wartime clearly revealed how severely we are dependent on countries with a highly developed industry, which poured billions of our money to pay for the necessary orders made there. ”[60] The situation was greatly complicated by the fact that the Baltic Sea was blocked by the outbreak of world conflict. And after Turkey entered the war, Russia, in the figurative expression of the general NN Golovin, “was like a boarded up house, which could be entered only through a chimney” - the freezing port of Arkhangelsk, which also had no good railway land communications, and Vladivostok, which “was more than 1917 miles away from the front” [61]. Import along the European border for the first half of 5 decreased by 000 thousand rubles compared to the same period of 62. or 1915% "
      http://istmat.info/node/54234
      1. +6
        9 July 2018 10: 30
        Newspapers of that time loved to exaggerate. And supply problems were not only ours. Germany, for example, depended on supplies of food and rare earth metals. With the outbreak of war, these supply chains were interrupted; by the end of 1915, a food crisis reigned in the country. But I don’t recall the cases when the Germans blamed their Motherland and the Kaiser for the last words and said something like “inappropriate Kaiser pulled backward Germany into an unnecessary war” ...
        1. +8
          9 July 2018 10: 45
          I understand that you are a monarchist, sir?) But look at history more objectively, no one has done less to win this war than the full name of the Romanovs. Starting from the French three-inch taken into service, to get into the war with an unprepared army. It is clear that the problems of the Republic of Ingushetia at the beginning of the century are systemic and one follows from the other, but you should not blame all the blame on the socialists and other “anti-legends” - these are just bastard children of their time and their political system.
          PS Germany, by the way, did solve its food problem, albeit at the expense of temporarily occupied lands, but the Empire tried to solve the armament problems with the help of windy allies, who supplied third-stage trash. Attempts to strengthen industry at the expense of domestic bottling capitalists led to cuts and cuts of budget and national money
          1. +4
            10 July 2018 09: 48
            Quote: Yakov Volgushev
            But look at history more objectively, no one has done less to win this war than the full name of the Romanovs. Starting from the French three-inch taken into service, to get into the war with an unprepared army.

            Do you talk about objectivity. time you say that Russia climbed?
            Objective facts indicate the attack of Germany on Russia.
            Or do you have to admit that in 1941 the USSR climbed into WWII.
            Quote: Yakov Volgushev
            Germany by the way its food problem decided, albeit at the expense of temporarily occupied lands

            Yeah 800 000 starved to death in the rear, this speaks of a "solution" to the problem.
            If you do not know this, then there is nothing to talk about.
            If you know and talk about the decision, "then again, what to say?"
            Quote: Yakov Volgushev
            Attempts to strengthen industry at the expense of domestic bottling capitalists led to cuts and cuts of budget and national money

            Yes, yes: what was released in the 14th year, then at 16m the same remains fool
        2. +6
          9 July 2018 10: 55
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          . But I don’t recall the cases when the Germans blamed their Motherland and the Kaiser for the last words and said something like “inappropriate Kaiser pulled backward Germany into an unnecessary war” ...

          But you don’t need to, Germany waged a war with clear goals and the population of the German Empire clearly realized what kind of need they got into it.
          So just in case. I remind you that Lloyd George, upon learning of the abdication of Nicholas 2 at the Military Council, declared that we had reached our goal with Russia. I congratulate you on such allies ... for whose affairs and their interests the Russian people paid at the cost of their lives 2 million killed and 8 million crippled in 1 world.
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          Newspapers of that time loved to exaggerate.

          Yes?
          And this. The same thing you need to understand the newspaperboy in rank?
          A.N. Naumov, the former Samara provincial leader of the nobility, recalled: “From the late autumn of 1914, we received from the front sad letters from soldiers - natives of the Samara province, as well as those military units that were in the city of Samara before the war. Judging by their reports, every day, as the harsh winter time approached, their position in positions became more difficult and caused a number of complaints on their part about the lack of warm clothes, shoes, linen, etc. ”[85] Supreme Commander-in-Chief Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolaevich complained that he was forced to stop military operations not only by the absence of shells, but also by the lack of boots [86]. At the front defeatist sentiments began to appear. Chief of General Staff, General N.N. Yanushkevich wrote on December 6, 1914 to the Minister of War V.A. Sukhomlinov: “A lot of people freeze feet without boots, without short fur coats or quilted jackets, they start to catch a cold. As a result, where officers were killed, mass surrenders began, sometimes at the initiative of ensigns. The Cossacks, who repulsed 500 prisoners with an attack, the latter scolded: "Who you Herods asked: again we do not want to starve and freeze" ”
          They gave you a link. http://istmat.info/node/54234, in the same place there is a whole scattering of references to archival and other sources, so no, the bunk crunch is all about its Taldychit ...
      2. +3
        9 July 2018 11: 52
        Quote: The Swordsman
        All the same to the beginning of World War I. And as it were, the Olgovichi did not varnish the flaws and frankly say the Akhov state of affairs in the Republic of Ingushetia

        A simple question: on what day of the war did the Germans take Minsk during WWII - and on what day during the Second World War? So where was the army better - in the Republic of Ingushetia or in the USSR?
        The difference in the results of these wars is caused by only one factor: Stalin promptly reduced the number of potential traitors, and the Sovereign Martyr hi did not listen to the wise advice of his wife and did not shoot the Duma am
        1. +3
          9 July 2018 11: 56
          Funny comparison. What, then, is the reason for the persistence of the PUAL in WWI and their flight in 1940? France was given almost without a fight. The point is not only in the army, but also in its preparation.
        2. +6
          9 July 2018 12: 08
          Quote: Weyland
          A simple question: on what day of the war did the Germans take Minsk during WWII - and on what day during the Second World War? So where was the army better - in the Republic of Ingushetia or in the USSR?

          Craving for the answer ....
          Get it. Read it carefully, delve into it, maybe you will understand, unlike idle tales like the one you brought.
          To characterize the combat resistance of the army there is an indicator - the number of prisoners
          based on bloody losses, i.e. number of prisoners, related to the number
          killed and wounded. According to the Russian army of the sample of 1914, from the calculation of the minimum
          the number - 2,4 million prisoners, this figure is as follows: for 10 killed and wounded in
          1,9 officers and 4,4 soldiers surrendered. (I apologize for the inappropriate
          fractions).
          In the tsarist army during the First World War it was killed and disappeared without
          lead (if the general is not killed, it is unlikely that he will be lost in captivity) 35
          generals surrendered - 73.170 Ha 10 killed generals surrendered 21
          general
          Irreversible losses of the Red Army for the entire Great Patriotic War - 8,6
          million people (and here died from accidents and illnesses). About 1 million
          died in captivity, they should be deducted, 7,6 million will remain. The wounded - 15,3 million,
          total bloody losses - 22,9 million. 171 Therefore (at the rate of 4 million
          prisoners), for 10 dead and wounded, 1,7 people surrendered, which is even higher,
          than the stamina of only officers of the old Russian army.
          There is evidence of separate losses of the Red Army during the liberation
          states of Eastern Europe and Asia in 1943-1945 These numbers are more comparable to
          figures of the First World War, more correct, since they do not contain in number
          prisoners of unarmed recruits and builders whom the Germans took in hundreds of thousands
          captured at the start of the war.
          In these battles 86203 Soviet officers were killed, 174539 were wounded, and captured
          and missing - 6467 people. 10 dead and wounded - 0,25 prisoners.
          205848 sergeants were killed, 459340 were wounded, were captured and missing.
          disappeared - 17725 people. 10 dead and wounded - 0,27 prisoners.
          956769 soldiers were killed, 2270405 were wounded, captured and disappeared
          - 94584 people. 10 dead and wounded - 0,29 prisoners.
          In the war of 1914-1917 Germans in order to capture a Russian
          officer, it was necessary to kill or injure about 5 other officers. For captivity
          one soldier - about two soldiers.
          In the war of 1941-1945. immeasurably stronger Germans in order to take in
          captivity of one Soviet officer, 40 others had to be killed or wounded
          officers. To capture one soldier - about 34 soldiers.
          Any questions?

          Quote: Weyland
          Stalin promptly noticeably reduced the number of potential traitors, and the Sovereign Martyr did not listen to the wise advice of his wife and did not shoot the Duma

          This suggests that Stalin was a fairly intelligent statesman, and the second, who is Nikolai, is a helpless rag.
          Any questions?
          If there is, please be kind enough to look for materials from the Tukhachevsky case. Maybe you will understand ..
          1. +2
            9 July 2018 23: 15
            Quote: The Swordsman
            To characterize the combat resistance of the army there is an indicator - the number of prisoners

            in this case, the capture of Minsk after a week of war says a lot about genius fool Soviet commanders!
            1. 0
              11 July 2018 17: 36
              Two questions.
              1. How many km were from Minsk to the state border in 1914 (via Russian Poland). and in 1941?
              2. How many tank groups and air squadrons did Wilhelm have? But Minsk was taken in ticks in 1941 by tank groups.
            2. +1
              12 July 2018 12: 14
              Quote: Weyland
              in this case, the capture of Minsk after a week of war says a lot about the genius of the Soviet commanders!

              This only speaks of the corruption of tech. 37-38 did not uproot the conspirators from among the close associates of Tukhachevsky. And soldiers and officers paid with their lives for the treason of some part of the generals.
              At the same time, the subject of your enthusiasm the Wehrmacht suffered heavy losses, as the same Halder writes about.
              At the expense of the "art" of the royal commanders, where did the Samsonov go with the army and how did the rennenkapf give him no help?
              1. 0
                12 July 2018 21: 50
                At the expense of the "art" of the royal commanders, where did the Samsonov go with the army and how did the rennenkapf give him no help?
                Quote: The Swordsman
                At the expense of the "art" of the royal commanders, where did the Samsonov go with the army and how did the rennenkapf give him no help?

                You simply do not know about those events.

                And what is not in the know is already evident from the first part of your statements - those about Minsk and about "proximity to Tukhochevsky"
                1. 0
                  12 July 2018 22: 04
                  Quote: AK64
                  You simply do not know about those events.

                  Well, well ... enlighten both at the expense of the death of Samsonov’s army and the role of Rennenkapp. And at the same time sing the hosanna of Tukhachevsky, with his plan of defeat, which is exactly the same as the initial stage of the unsuccessful actions for us in border battles.
          2. +3
            10 July 2018 10: 11
            Quote: The Swordsman
            Any questions?

            There is: to steal others posing as an article, isn’t it a shame?
            Moral and Adm codes to help you! Yes
            1. +1
              12 July 2018 12: 16
              Quote: Olgovich
              There is: To steal other people's articles, posing as their own, is not it a shame?

              You’re stealing a lot here, giving out phrases entirely taken either from the Conquist, then from Suvorov-rezun, then from Solzhenitsyn, or from another Russophia.
              So look after yourself.
              Quote: Olgovich
              Moral and Adm Codes

              You do not know this, as well as the concept of Conscience and Honor is missing from you.
        3. +1
          9 July 2018 18: 44
          Quote: Weyland
          Sovereign Martyr hi did not listen to the wise advice of his wife and did not shoot the Duma am


          You have mixed up a bit: Stalin shot the generals. So Nikolai Alexandrovich also should have started with the generals. And the Duma .... let them chat ....

          In Stavka he had a conspiracy, in Stavka
          1. +1
            9 July 2018 19: 35
            Quote: AK64
            You have mixed up a bit: Stalin shot the generals. So Nikolai Alexandrovich also should have started with the generals. And the Duma .... let them chat ....

            The problem is that the Duma didn’t just chat. Among the Duma, among others, there were persons with real weight. For example, the sad memory of Mr. Guchkov, who for his activities as chairman of the Central Military Industrial Committee needed cut without waiting for peritonitis.
            1. +1
              9 July 2018 19: 43
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Among the Duma, among others, there were persons with real weight. For example, the sad memory of Mr. Guchkov, who for his activities as chairman of the Central Military Industrial Committee needed cut without waiting for peritonitis.


              They would have slaughtered in working order, after the war: the case against the Zemgussars has already begun.

              The most dangerous (and at the same time the most stupid) in fact turned out to be Nikolai Nikolaevich and his Caudle (Alekseev first of all). There was a conspiracy at Headquarters, and the change (according to the requirements of the public and allies) of Gurko to Alekseev was a key link in the plan.

              In general, Messrs. The generals didn’t complain that they were being cut --- they deserved, sir
      3. 0
        10 July 2018 15: 01
        Quote: The Swordsman
        According to Kommersant newspaper, in 1914, the export of goods from Russia amounted to 351 thousand rubles, while the import amounted to 472 thousand rubles. Import along the European border for the first half of 403 decreased in comparison with the same period 544 for 1915 1914 thousand rubles. or 528%. "

        Lie lie newspapers
    2. +1
      9 July 2018 14: 18
      it will be more accurate to say: the WHOLE COMPLEX of reasons, including those mentioned by Olgovich and you, led to the loss in the OJ
    3. +3
      10 July 2018 09: 40
      Quote: Yakov Volgushev
      I’m not sure that the reason for losing is only in time, it’s more about the systemic crisis in the RIF

      The point is in time: Russia in Primorye was only 40 years old, in Korea, a few years! This is an insanely short period for the development and protection of vast territories.
      For powerful Japan, this is its own area.
      Objectively, Russia TAM was much weaker.
      1. 0
        10 July 2018 10: 42
        Powerful Japan has become 20 years before this time, which is generally discussed. When Vladivostok was laid, the Japanese sailed on junks under sails ...
        1. +4
          10 July 2018 11: 21
          Quote: Yakov Volgushev
          Powerful Japan became 20 years before this time,

          belay With the revolution of 67 g, the rapid growth of the Japanese economy began. And in 1904, it was a crowded powerful economic power, with a powerful fleet, an army, and Korea at hand.
          1. 0
            10 July 2018 11: 57
            The first steam ship in Japan appeared in the 1855 year, more or less modern only in the 1880 years of the 19 century. Therefore, it is possible to talk about economic growth since 1867, but this does not affect the situation in any way. Japan received its army and navy only by the 80 years.
            At the same time, Russia, all things being equal, is much more stable in a clash than an island state such as Japan, the only question is that there were no equal conditions. Japan in the shortest possible time created an army and navy at the level of European powers, and RI at that time peacefully rested on its laurels and saved finances from the navy and army. Armed reserve, for example, while Japan’s ocean fleet was actively engaged in combat training, most of the 1 TOE ships were in the jail, the Naval Forces, that P-A, and Vladivostok did not have facilities for dry repair of 1 class ships, as a result, caissons had to be fenced for "Retvizan" and "Tsesarevich". A fleet for the Pacific Ocean was under construction, but they did not give it to finish. These are systemic vices of imperial Russia, you can’t do anything and you won’t justify it, although you can argue about the strongest Japan and weak Russia for 40 years of its presence at the theater, which did nothing to strengthen its position, but alas, island states have limited resources during the war, which was perfectly shown by World War II, when the imperial fleet of Japan was crushed by the Allies at the expense of more resources. During the Russo-Japanese War, when the b / d was delayed, the collapse of their entire island and “powerful” economy was possible, but alas ... it did not grow together, it was reconciled before, and agrarian Russia was threatened with a prolonged war
            At 1904, again, all other things being equal, the RIF and the army were quite capable of hitting the Japanese with tinsel, but they did not have enough brains, muscles and time, and luck in this war was clearly on the side of Japan - either the shell would not explode or the fire would miraculously go out Japanese, at the same time, no matter what hit, it’s so golden.
            1. +4
              11 July 2018 13: 23
              Quote: Yakov Volgushev
              These are systemic vices of imperial Russia, you can’t do anything and you won’t justify it, although you can argue about the strongest Japan and weak Russia for 40 years of its presence at the theater did nothing to strengthen their position,

              If I hadn’t done anything, Russia didn’t have Far East today. Did England do more in such areas? And where are these areas in England?
              For 40 years, a port was built, a beautiful city, the fortress of Vladivostok, etc., with factories, warehouses, theaters and even museums. Where is this seen?
              The Trans-Siberian Railway, the second most important event after the discovery of America, is how Americans recognized.
              The population of Primorye, which grew THREE in 20 years, is more than half a million people!
              Is this all nothing? belay
              Quote: Yakov Volgushev
              At 1904, again, all other things being equal, the RIF and the army were quite capable of hitting the Japanese with tinsel, but they did not have enough brains, muscles and time, and luck in this war was clearly on the side of Japan - either the shell would not explode or the fire would miraculously go out Japanese, at the same time, no matter what hit, it’s so golden.

              In general, I agree.
      2. 0
        11 July 2018 17: 50
        And what developed territories were needed for the TOY war?
        Kuropatkin and Legs fought in the open field, not paying attention to some Chinese darting under their feet.
        During the siege of Port Arthur, the supply of both sides went along the sea.
        And why didn’t Nikolai and his camarilla develop Vladivostok’s naval base, and the fleet wintered in Nagasaki, where officers could buy temporary wives, live in hotels, etc.?
        Everyone was fine.
        Without touching the political sides of the matter, it should be noted that neither the rank and file of the army and navy, nor the officers, nor the generals were able to fight.
        If the fleet officers can neither shoot nor maneuver, then they are laundresses, not officers.
        If the admiral, a specialist in mine weapons, pranks on an armadillo in the unpaved area, which the Japanese destroyers dart along, then he is a sucker, not an admiral.
        Drown himself and drowned a bunch of people.
  5. +5
    9 July 2018 07: 39
    The future of Russia in the Far East, the vector was correct.
    It’s a pity they didn’t squeeze out the aggressor who attacked our Navy without declaring war. Reconciled at a time
    1. +5
      9 July 2018 10: 31
      It's right. But, if it were not for the terror in the rear, which caused problems with the supply of the army, then they would certainly be squeezed.
      1. +3
        9 July 2018 11: 55
        I agree with you, dear Lieutenant hi
        It hurts just in time for the 1st revolution. The period of wars is the most convenient time for such actions.
      2. +1
        9 July 2018 23: 52
        What kind of terror? You would turn to the documents in the case of Uhach-Ogorovich !!! Then the problems of the Manjurian army will play differently
      3. +1
        11 July 2018 17: 57
        You have a strange idea of ​​a squeeze.
        The Port Arthur squadron was shot without a fight and captured by the Japanese, the squadron of Rozhestvensky was partially sunk, partially surrendered.
        Port Arthur surrendered.
        Kurapatsin is driven across Manchuria with pissed rags. This is with the numerical superiority of the Russians.
        The world had to be concluded quickly and, most importantly, before Tsushima.
        The army did not want to fight for the Bezobrazov concession to Yala.
        For example, didn’t you volunteer for the First Chechen war to fight for Berezovsky’s right to control the oil pipeline?
        No?
        Why so?
    2. Alf
      +2
      9 July 2018 20: 59
      Quote: Heavy Division
      It’s a pity they didn’t squeeze out the aggressor who attacked our Navy without declaring war. Reconciled at a time

      Was there a fleet in the Far East at the time of reconciliation?
      1. +1
        9 July 2018 21: 15
        The combat-ready was, as part of the 2's of BrKr, the 1 cruiser of 1 rank and one cruiser of 2 rank (a defect in the form of a “Diamond”), well, a couple of three destroyers and destroyers on the move. It’s true that at that time Japan had already raked all land reserves, if Kuropatkin had been gathering fists for another year or two, then you would have looked at yapes and surrendered themselves to the mercy of the winner, though the RI economy would also have fallen below the plinth, the war is expensive, especially for agrarian powers
        1. Alf
          +1
          9 July 2018 21: 34
          Quote: Yakov Volgushev
          1 rank 1 cruisers

          During the outbreak of the Russo-Japanese War, the Bogatyr acted as part of the Vladivostok detachment and, together with other cruisers, made three campaigns in January - April 1904 with the aim of disrupting Japanese communications that did not produce serious results. On May 2, 1904, Rear Admiral K.P. Jessen, commander of the cruiser detachment, went to the Bogatyr to inspect the state of defense in Posyet Bay. Following in the fog, at a speed dangerous for such conditions, the cruiser flew onto the rocks at Cape Bruce. The struggle to save the cruiser lasted the whole month, and only on June 1, 1904 the ship was taken off the cliff and transferred to Vladivostok [50]. Repair in the conditions of the Vladivostok port turned out to be difficult and continued with interruptions for more than a year [51]. The Bogatyr went to sea only on September 5, 1905, after the end of the war [52].

          The one who spent the whole war under repair?
          Quote: Yakov Volgushev
          2 BrKr,

          Against the entire Japanese fleet?
          Not funny.
          1. 0
            9 July 2018 21: 54
            As they formulated and answered, at the time of the pacification the fleet in the Pacific Ocean consisted of the Stormbreaker and Rossiya brkr, the 1 cruiser of the Bogatyr rank, the 2 cruiser of the Almaz rank, the destroyers Grozny and Bravy, number destroyers No. 201-211.
            1. Alf
              +1
              9 July 2018 21: 58
              Those. RI did not have a fleet in the Pacific Ocean. How to continue the war in this form? Almost won?
              And about the Athlete, so do not take it into account. It is difficult to plan participation in the database of a ship that did not go out of repair. And the repair base in Vladik was, to put it mildly, weak.
              1. 0
                9 July 2018 22: 13
                The war at sea was lost with the battle in the Yellow Sea, the rest was just a fight, in my opinion, after 10 August 1 TOE scattered somewhere, and the remnants no longer represented real combat force, sending 2 and 3 TOE is just an attempt to bluff more. On land, it was possible to crush the Japanese economy by simply prolonging the war, but the pulling down ruined the economy of RI
              2. +2
                10 July 2018 09: 56
                Those. RI did not have a fleet in the Pacific Ocean. How to continue the war in this form? Almost won?

                You know, but at the end of the war - do not care. The fleet was needed to interrupt supplies from Japan, but the fact is that by the end of the war, the resources of the japs ​​stupidly ran out. That is, they could supply, but there was nothing.
                It is difficult to plan participation in the database of a ship that did not go out of repair.

                For a second, the broken nose was repaired at Bogatyr, and the cars and boilers remained intact and worked for a long time.
                Another question is that it would not help much in that situation.
        2. -1
          11 July 2018 18: 00
          Excuse me, but would the Japanese give this year or two?
          After all, he was beaten often, but it hurts.
          Yalu-Liaoyang-Mukden ....... further - everywhere.
  6. +5
    9 July 2018 07: 51
    The Japanese struck at night, without a declaration of war. In the matter went two waves of destroyers. The result was devastating: two battleships failed, and with them five cruisers.


    Yes, five cruisers, this is something new in the history of the Russo-Japanese War.
    1. 0
      9 July 2018 08: 34
      Specify the names of 5 cruisers.
      1. +4
        9 July 2018 08: 40
        Quote: Conductor
        Specify the names of 5 cruisers.


        It is not necessary to contact me, but to the author of the article. hi
  7. +8
    9 July 2018 08: 23
    Another liberal agitation, this is what it is: “wise Witte” and all that.

    In fact, it was Witte who organized this war and ensured defeat in it.
    But this turned out to be not enough --- and the scoundrel-Witte had to openly reveal himself by participating in peace talks. After which, according to the results of the "world", the scoundrel finally retired

    Why did he do this? So he was an English agent, that’s the whole answer.
    Those who wish can themselves see Witte’s entire policy from this very angle, and see for themselves.
  8. +8
    9 July 2018 08: 58
    Article minus. The banal set of stamps mixed with outright lies is presented, such as, for example, the passage about 100 thousand dead near Mukden. And this despite the fact that all the combined losses of the Russian army, including prisoners and wounded, amounted to less than 80 thousand.
    1. 0
      9 July 2018 09: 47
      Well, in general, net of "100 thousand killed," he set out quite correctly.
  9. +3
    9 July 2018 09: 43
    And the meaning of this article? How does the foregoing differ from published in the textbook of the new history of Russia for the 8th class from 1960? All the same. The Far East is not fortified, the Trans-Siberian Railway is not ready, Port Arthur will finally strengthen by 1909. Alekseev is a fool, Bezobrazov is a moral villain, Nicholas II is a wimp who succumbed to the entreaties of adventurers. Russia has done everything to provoke the Japanese, while not doing anything to prepare for war. The war was shamefully leaked, despite the heroism of the soldiers and individual general officers, which greatly contributed to the first revolution.
    1. 0
      9 July 2018 10: 30
      Yes, I agree. The style of the article is well written, well read, but the plot and all the characters in it are somehow too caricatured. You read, but before your eyes it’s like a children's cartoon in the style of a “cybalchish boy and bourgeois”.
    2. -1
      11 July 2018 18: 13
      If it does not bother you, refute at least one of the theses you cited.
  10. +3
    9 July 2018 10: 43
    The review is not bad, but the assessment factor is in some places superficial and very subjective. Well, Alekseev did not want to part with Liaodong, he did the right thing! Another question is WHAT measures have been taken to strengthen in every sense the presence of Russia on the peninsula. Port control, naval bases - this is the first attribute of technology to ensure the influence of all colonial powers. Otherwise, it must be admitted that the Portuguese, English, French, were 300 years old idiots. But a piece of iron - this is already a sufficient condition, it would be nice. As a result, - the trousers parted, but it was necessary to strain with money beyond the possibilities, because Liaodong did not "work" without a piece of iron, due to Russian geography. Only here the piece of iron was really needed before Vlad, in the first place.
    Stinted on a national scale, invested in an asset that is easily squeezed. And in the end, the most important thing that is not emphasized in the article is that Russia fought not only with Japan, it was an indirect war with Britain, and to a lesser extent the USA, with the cold-chilled neutrality of Germany and the warm neutrality of France. A sort of truncated "Crimean War", only in a remote theater. Russia lost to Britain, not to the Japanese "instrument." By the way, the narrow-minded Nikki the 2nd Canonized didn’t “get the hang of” the essence of the matter, and through Franzev (who is ours and yours, and most importantly about himself), signed up for an alliance with Britain against Germany. There are people whom life does not teach anything - they are named with the letter D.
    1. +4
      9 July 2018 11: 01
      An asset is actually not very easily squeezed out) In order to make it impossible to squeeze on paper, quite a lot was done. A fleet was being built, fortifications were built both on the Navy itself and in Vladivostok. But the trouble with the generals and admirals was not much better with middle and senior officers. For the rest, everything is true, in Russia there are two troubles - fools and roads, but the trick is that fools often stand over those who design and build these the roads
      1. +2
        9 July 2018 15: 28
        Quote: Yakov Volgushev
        A fleet was being built, fortifications were built both on the Navy itself and in Vladivostok. Only with the generals and admirals, the trouble was, with middle and senior officers, too, not much better.

        Not a single general can defend the fortress normally at the beginning of the 3th century, the fortifications of which are located 4-1 km from the center and completed only 4/XNUMX.
        As for the admirals, in the 90s of the XIX century they recognized the PA as unsuitable for basing the fleet. But they imposed this base on them in a directive order - and Morved had to simultaneously build 2 naval bases on the Far East. The end is a bit predictable - by the beginning of the war, not one of the bases had been brought to a level that allowed to properly base 1 TOE. It’s enough to recall how much the “Tsesarevich”, “Retvizan” and “Bogatyr” repaired.
        1. 0
          10 July 2018 15: 22
          There is such a relief in the Port Arthur area that you can defend it. The hills you’ll climb on.
          Like a port, so-so. But Dalniy ... Yes.
    2. +2
      9 July 2018 12: 05
      Quote: andrew42
      and through Franzev (who are ours and yours, and most importantly about himself), he signed up for an alliance with Britain against Germany.

      The young man. learn materiel! That the Anglo-French agreement of 1904, that the Anglo-Russian convention of 1907 settled the contentious issues between their parties - but call it real military Union just silly! If the Kaiser knew in advance that England intended to enter the war - he would not have risked fighting, but England had to lower Germany - and therefore, in order to provoke it, before the start of the war, the impudent people pretended to be neutral!
      1. 0
        9 July 2018 16: 52
        Quote: Weyland
        That the Anglo-French agreement of 1904, that the Anglo-Russian convention of 1907 settled the contentious issues between their parties - but call it real military Union just silly! !

        Apparently there were "secret parts" --- the practice at that time was completely normal.
        A "settlement" is just for the Germans
    3. +2
      9 July 2018 14: 28
      Quote: andrew42
      Another question is WHAT measures have been taken to strengthen in every sense the presence of Russia on the peninsula.

      Heh heh heh ... Yakovlev in the History of Fortresses has a good overview of the planning of Port Arthur fortifications - what was required, what was planned, how the plans were cut, and what was constructed as a result.
      In short, the economy mode and the reluctance to increase the PA garrison over one division led to the fact that the main line of defense was compressed so that it did not protect the core of the fortress even from small arms fire. Plus, the fortifications themselves were built according to a lightweight project, with protection only from shells with a caliber of no higher than 152 mm.
      1. 0
        10 July 2018 15: 12
        In fairness, in 6 years it was built not so little. And given the distance, a lot. Saw. Everything is still standing. I don’t think that we would have built more now with all the same. On one 223-ФЗ competitions would conclude 2 years. Hehe.
  11. +6
    9 July 2018 13: 14
    "Well, as it were, the defeat was essentially the result of the actions of the" patriotic "socialist militants who launched a terrorist war in the rear of the warring motherland."
    Teterin, do you ever get out of your parallel world into reality?
    Obviously, Kuropatkin, Stessel, Stark and others were socialists, for they began to prepare the ground for revolution from the very beginning, gave up the strategic initiative (if the phrase is familiar to the shtafirs) to the Japanese, giving Korea up and allowing them to go to the Yalu river by April.
    These vile socialists, and probably with the knowledge of the king, dispersed the troops of the Siberian and Manchurian military regions along the barracks. Mobilization began on the orders of the governor Admiral Alekseev only after the first Japanese attack on Port Arthur. And appointed on February 20, the commander of the military forces in Manchuria, General Kuropatkin, arrived at the theater of operations only on March 27. Another six weeks were required to mobilize reservists. As a result, the insidious socialists allowed the 1st Japanese Army, led by General Kuroki, to almost seize Korea without hindrance. The first major battle on land was given to the Japanese only on April 27 on the river. Yalu.
    The socialist Kuropatkin commanded in such a way as to enable the Japanese to advance and succumbed to them. . The defeat on the river. Yalu allowed the Japanese to enter Manchuria and block Port Arthur.
    And Mukden was given by the socialist Kuropatkin. The socialists also paralyzed intelligence operations, as a result of which the headquarters of the Russian army had insufficient and sometimes incorrect information about the state of the enemy forces and about the situation on the fronts.
    The socialists also made a mess in the command of the troops when four generals simultaneously commanded the troops, and from time to time General Alekseev made his contribution.
    Further, the socialists in the naval command drowned everything that was drowning under Tsushima and surrendered Port Arthur.
    And pop Gapon was, no doubt, a socialist.
    And when all these socialists paved the way, then the 1905 revolution began.
    1. 0
      9 July 2018 14: 26
      V. N about Kuropatkin: if instead of him a SUSTAINABLE commander, then the yaps would have a kayuk
    2. 0
      9 July 2018 15: 48
      Quote: Curious
      And pop Gapon was, no doubt, a socialist.

      well, he certainly was a socialist! What do you know about him, in addition to the rage from the Soviet history textbooks?
      1. +2
        9 July 2018 17: 33
        Soviet historiography is as far away from the amount of "gonev" today as it is from Earth to Alpha Centauri.
        And "The Story of My Life" in your opinion, "shovel-driven" or not?
        And another question, and from what sacred sources your historical knowledge? Are they accessible to mere mortals?
  12. +2
    9 July 2018 14: 20
    China was once again divided: Port Arthur withdrew to Russia, and Qingdao remained for Kaiser Wilhelm. Russia hastily concluded a lease agreement with Beijing on the Liaodong Peninsula, which in these conditions was absolutely necessary for the construction of the southern branch of the railway - that is, right up to Port Arthur.

    And this lease was one of the reasons for the future war. For according to the Shimonoseki treaty concluded at the end of the Sino-Japanese war, Liaodong was supposed to withdraw to the Japanese. But the three Powers pressed Japan - and it was forced to abandon territorial acquisitions on the mainland, returning Liaodong to China and. limited to indemnity. And after 3 years, one of these Powers took - and took Liaodong for herself.
    To understand the state of Japan after that, imagine that the Russian-Turkish war of 1878 ended not just with the cancellation of the San Stefano Peace Treaty at the Berlin Congress, but also with the lease of the Straits zone by Great Britain with the construction of a naval base there. belay
    And the worst thing is that the fleet of the Empire of Port Arthur was not needed - back in the early 90s, it as a fleet base was recognized as unpromising. The fleet was actively negotiating a rental Mozampo, but was actually confronted with the fact that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, even without consulting with the “sub-Spitz” admirals, chose Port Arthur for the fleet.
    1. -1
      11 July 2018 18: 18
      Excuse me, did the socialists also panic at the Foreign Ministry?
      Agents of Lenin?
  13. 0
    9 July 2018 14: 21
    Quote: heavy division
    The future of Russia in the Far East, the vector was correct.
    It’s a pity they didn’t squeeze out the aggressor who attacked our Navy without declaring war. Reconciled at a time

    If you read Denikin: “The Way of the Russian Officer” you will see how close to the target
  14. +1
    9 July 2018 16: 28
    A mixture of stamps and inaccuracies (to say the least).
    Rating is bad.
  15. 0
    9 July 2018 19: 42
    Quote from the article
    In March 1905, Kuropatkin retreated to Harbin, leaving 100 thousand dead.

    All RI losses amounted to 43-44 thousand, including those who died from diseases.
    http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/1939-1945/KRIWOSHEEW/poteri
    .txt # w01.htm-005
  16. 0
    9 July 2018 21: 50
    It’s always interesting to read about the Russo-Japanese war: limited scope with good facts, a lot of “puzzles”.
    Many facts are controversial.
    I did not like the author’s desire to present this war (and Transib!) As an outspoken adventure of individuals of the Empire.
    Russia still can not establish itself in the Pacific Ocean - but it is necessary (much more important than in Poland, the Caucasus or Central Asia). There are few benefits - there are many problems, but now there are even more.
    Russia was not ready for the war and were the personal interests of the capitalists? - And when it was different in the history of Russia?
    Russia would have surely finished off Japan on land, but Nicholas II turned out to be a completely indecisive statesman. I repeat once again: history is created not by "objective reasons", but by political leaders. This was the problem of the beginning of the twentieth century, and the problem of the beginning of this century. There are no leaders.
  17. 0
    10 July 2018 15: 04
    Quote: AK64
    Quote: Hiking
    So, after all, no real general was found in Russian-Japanese.

    Pretty strange statement. And it hardly has something in common with reality.

    Firstly, Kuropatkin was much more professional than judged by the hasty people. And the rest were quite on the level. But the “second general echelon" was Ivanov, Alekseev ... Just for example.

    The professionalism of the general is to beat the enemy and not be beaten. According to this parameter, Kuropatkin is an unsuccessful and worthless general. Such a "professional" had to be removed on time.
    I ask myself a long question. What would happen if the Japanese war were under Stalin? He would quickly find everyone he needed. It’s even funny to discuss.
    So it was in the system.
    1. 0
      10 July 2018 16: 58
      Nikolay, are you again? New nickname? Congratulations.

      But I will not talk to you - it’s not interesting.
      1. 0
        11 July 2018 06: 57
        AK64, are you this to me? I don’t do anything. Maybe the comments were not attached there?
        1. 0
          11 July 2018 10: 06
          You-you. Well, if you’re not Nikolai (which is strange - it looks very strong), then I’ll just notice that your opinion on Kuropatkin, the Russian-Japanese war, and the general’s profession is notable for its low competence and categoricalness: for example, using your logic, In the 41st-42nd ALL of Soviet generals should be sent to retire (to the regions of Siberia).

          Kuropatkin’s strategy, contrary to the opinion of network “experts,” was CORRECT, and was completely devoid of the slightest risk elements. Kuropatkin would kill Japan MATHEMATICALLY, without much risk and casualties.
          That is how it eventually happened - but .... in general, Witte had to save the Japs. Well saved.
          1. 0
            11 July 2018 10: 16
            I apologize for interfering, but Kuropatkin is a general, not a politician, like a politician, yes, pulling a b / d, exhausting an enemy and accumulating superior forces is a completely political decision, but the general’s task is to destroy the enemy’s troops or push them to unprofitable lines, with this task Kuropatkin just didn’t manage, he did a great job of prolonging the war, no one argues here, but in this case, too, his strategy led to a political collapse, the resource crisis came not only in Japan, but also in the Russian Empire ui. Under Mukden, due to errors in planning, ceteris paribus in technical equipment, the defending party suffered comparable losses with the advancing one, this already speaks of his leadership talent.
            1. 0
              11 July 2018 11: 59
              Quote: Yakov Volgushev
              I apologize for interfering, but Kuropatkin is a general, not a politician, like a politician, yes, pulling a b / d, exhausting an enemy and accumulating superior forces is a completely political decision, but the general’s task is to destroy the enemy’s troops or push them to unprofitable lines, with this task Kuropatkin just didn’t manage, he did a great job of prolonging the war, no one argues here, but in this case, too, his strategy led to a political collapse, the resource crisis came not only in Japan, but also in the Russian Empire ui. Under Mukden, due to errors in planning, ceteris paribus in technical equipment, the defending party suffered comparable losses with the advancing one, this already speaks of his leadership talent.

              That is, you deny the generals the ability of strategic thinking?
              Quint Fabius, Kutuzov or Barclay for you - some fools?

              This is despite the fact that the situation at Kuropatkin was much worse than that of Fabius, and he had much more reasons to quietly spend time: every month Kuropatkin became stronger, and the Japanese became weaker. So why rush and burn soldiers' lives in battle?

              The only bad event, which to some extent can be considered a consequence of such a strategy, is the surrender of Port Arthur. But it was not in vain that Stessel was brought to trial (and should have been sent to Witte too) --- no one could have expected that the fortress would not be a fortress, and would be surrendered so quickly: everyone expected that the PA would last another year .
              1. 0
                11 July 2018 13: 36
                Stessel means he gave PA badly, and Kuropatkin is good, though he also passed Mukden, while Kuropatkin had much more opportunities to keep him. I do not condone Stessel, but Kuropatkin is clearly not a commander, an ordinary peacetime general, a good commander of a regiment or division, but no commander of an army or a front, as can be seen from the history of the REV. You can compare it with Kutuzov or Quintus Fabius, but the circumstances ... Kuropatkin knew the mood in society very well, and understood that delaying the b / d would lead to a crisis, but instead he continued to group forces, while he suffered mainly from his “regroupings” the Russian army, as shown by the battles near Mukden, when the troops, without adequate command and coordination, lost the initiative, and then got into a sack. At the same time, even at the time of the siege of PA, Kuropatkin had a chance to inflict tangible losses on the Japanese army. Liaolian, for example, why did Kuropatkin order to retreat and abandon the first line of defense? Incorrect assessment, reinsurance - what kind of Quint and Kutuzov is there ... I am silent about the battle near Shahe, the leadership talents of Kuropatkin showed up clearly in it, the losses of the attacking side are 2 times more than the defenses, while Kuropatkin himself in defense suffered about comparable losses with defenders
                1. 0
                  11 July 2018 18: 25
                  Stessel means he gave PA badly, and Kuropatkin is good, though he also passed Mukden, while Kuropatkin had much more opportunities to keep him.


                  You know, this one phrase is enough to make it clear the full extent of your competence in the matter. There is simply nothing to talk with you about, and I, accordingly, will not. Well, maybe there are kind people --- they will explain the difference between Mukden and PA.
                  But it will not be me
                  1. 0
                    12 July 2018 08: 30
                    The test version of the drain. But alas ... after 27 million victims you hanged on Zhukov, everything is clear. Apparently from Wikipedia do you draw knowledge? To date, the loss of the army in World War II is walking between the numbers 8,7-15 million people. In this case, I think the figure in 10-11 million will be most adequate. And Zhukov had nothing to do with it, unlike Kuropatkin, the Red Army faced the most powerful army on the continent, both technically and in terms of command. Kuropatkin is so dearly beloved by you, a good organizer and politician, but a useless commander. And this was perfectly understood by both contemporaries and historians of our time, though this is not the case on Wikipedia ...
                    1. 0
                      12 July 2018 21: 51
                      Valid drain option


                      From now on, there’s no reason to talk to you about anything.
                      1. 0
                        12 July 2018 22: 06
                        Quote: AK64
                        From now on, to speak further

                        You don’t need to. Nothing new, other than the black myths told here by the olgovichs. You won’t write.
              2. 0
                11 July 2018 15: 49
                Then we must admit that Kuropatkin almost won the Japanese war. I retreated xs where. Lost a bunch of people. Not one battlewoman won, not to mention more. And this despite the fact that there were enough forces. And the army was normal for against the Japanese.
                But Nikolai lost her.
                Mein Gott!
                This is a military genius .....
                1. 0
                  11 July 2018 18: 32
                  Then we must admit that Kuropatkin almost won the Japanese war. I retreated xs where. Lost a bunch of people.

                  Where and when was the "bunch of people" lost exactly by Kuropatkin? His only defeat was Mukden (where he rested not because he needed to, but because "the public demanded", that is, the reasons for pushing were not military but purely political). But even under Mukden, the loss result is actually parity --- especially if you do not look at English figures, but more or less Russian ones.
                  So where did he lose the "bunch of people"?

                  And he retreated - so ONE had to retreat, further: reducing his communications and lengthening the Japanese. The territory is alien, and at the same time a desert. This is not to leave the Smolensk enemy, and not Ukraine



                  But Nikolai lost her.

                  This is again nonsense, not having the slightest relation to reality.
                  And yet, yes - a military genius.
          2. 0
            11 July 2018 15: 56
            But the logic is this. Few in what war and who have the generals who were at the head of all that can correspond to their posts during the war. And war, any kind of it, always puts forward new commanders. The task of the political leadership to identify these commanders and put where necessary. None of this was done anywhere in the Russo-Japanese war. And all this was done in 1941, 1942, 1943,19 44 and 1945. All Soviet generals who did not correspond to the war were appointed somewhere far away from the war. Or received posts where they would not interfere with winning. This has always been done. Even in our last wars.
            No one better than Lenin wrote about the reasons for the defeat in the Russo-Japanese war. The then Russian system could not give a victory. But the king, instead of engaging in war, was engaged in xs what.
  18. 0
    11 July 2018 16: 14
    Quote: AK64
    Quote: Yakov Volgushev
    I apologize for interfering, but Kuropatkin is a general, not a politician, like a politician, yes, pulling a b / d, exhausting an enemy and accumulating superior forces is a completely political decision, but the general’s task is to destroy the enemy’s troops or push them to unprofitable lines, with this task Kuropatkin just didn’t manage, he did a great job of prolonging the war, no one argues here, but in this case, too, his strategy led to a political collapse, the resource crisis came not only in Japan, but also in the Russian Empire ui. Under Mukden, due to errors in planning, ceteris paribus in technical equipment, the defending party suffered comparable losses with the advancing one, this already speaks of his leadership talent.

    That is, you deny the generals the ability of strategic thinking?
    Quint Fabius, Kutuzov or Barclay for you - some fools?

    This is despite the fact that the situation at Kuropatkin was much worse than that of Fabius, and he had much more reasons to quietly spend time: every month Kuropatkin became stronger, and the Japanese became weaker. So why rush and burn soldiers' lives in battle?

    The only bad event, which to some extent can be considered a consequence of such a strategy, is the surrender of Port Arthur. But it was not in vain that Stessel was brought to trial (and should have been sent to Witte too) --- no one could have expected that the fortress would not be a fortress, and would be surrendered so quickly: everyone expected that the PA would last another year .

    A normal general MUST give victory or not give victory to the enemy. The same Kutuzov, though he didn’t win there, didn’t let Napoleon do what he wanted. And the things went with the French at random. And it crashed.
    And the most important thing is to do everything in a timely manner. So that the good king Nikolas does not come and make peace. Since the fight has already got sick. No one Kuropatkin set the task to retreat hell knows where, give the Japanese the opportunity to block and take Arthur, lose the hell knows how many people. If you have not completed the task, it means a bad general. And no academic knowledge and cleverness will not make him good. Emoji writer ...
    Suvorov, now, did not write a nifiga. And the so-called "Science of Victory" is just a set of thoughts that are unformed into something coherent. He pretended to be an eccentric, and then left shreds from everyone.
    And Zhukov did not clever. And he performed the task. Also left no thoughts on the military side.
    Even such a durole as Skobelev fulfilled the task.
    1. -1
      11 July 2018 18: 25
      And then Skobelev got into politics and died.
      Right on the woman.
      Here you are not here - to wave a saber.
    2. 0
      11 July 2018 18: 36
      Kuropatkin commanded troops in Manchuria for a little longer than a year, from 7.02.04/3.03.05/XNUMX to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX. During this time, actually caused the Japanese losses that were fatal to them.

      Zhukov und Co. What have you done in a year? Or in a year and 26 days? (especially considering the position of the GKZH before the war)?

      So according to your logic, Stalin should have sent all the marshals to Siberia.
      1. 0
        11 July 2018 21: 07
        Why then did the Japanese not die? All? Linevich also left.
        1. 0
          12 July 2018 07: 31
          Have died. After Mukden - not the slightest activity.
          Therefore, I had to save from.
      2. 0
        11 July 2018 21: 15
        Comrade Stalin was cruel to traitors and conspirators. And the rest, he worked with what was. Therefore, he put forward some, pushed others. I have not received the result yet. And not only in war.
        The basic principle was in the Communist Party and in the army: work with those who are. You can’t give a result, it means a bad leader. I still found it. And in touch with the remnants of this principle.
        Zhukov is bad, only he ended up in Berlin, and Kuropatkin in% / # = _ € ne. Sorry, do not say another. And the whole empire was there.
        1. 0
          12 July 2018 07: 36
          Zhukov is bad, only he ended up in Berlin, and Kuropatkin in% / # = _ € ne. Sorry, do not say another. And the whole empire was there.


          Well, yes, yes ...
          That's just "Zhukov ended up in Berlin" after the official 27 million corpses (but really .... but really, who knows how many there were). But Kuropatkin just positioned himself as a "commander taking care of the soldiers." And really cared. Including did not burn fighters in battles in vain.

          If Kuropatkin would be given 4 years (like Zhukov) and the opportunity to lose at least a million or two fighters .... Well, he would also be in Tokyo.

          In real life, Kuropatkin’s strategy brought Japan to zero in a year and a half.
          1. 0
            12 July 2018 09: 41
            If Kuropatkin’s strategy brought anyone to zero, it’s Russia. The Revolution of 1917 (February) is one of the results of the Japanese war.
            Japan fulfilled all the goals of its war.
            Russia has not reached a single goal in the war. Also lost territory. Own, damn them Chinese. Two fleets at full zero.
            Where is japanese zero? An exhausted economy? Finance? and so forth? So the Japanese nation is undemanding. Victory pays off in the future.
            It can be argued that the victory over Russia ultimately destroyed Japan in 1945. But here you can fantasize a lot.
            1. 0
              12 July 2018 21: 56
              Sorry you are straightforward, but you are incompetent and loud. And therefore, there’s nothing to talk to you about, nothing to me about. not to anyone else.

              You step aside, keep silent for a week, drink cold water - and then think about this: what would you do, personally, and it would be you, who would act on Kuropatkin’s place?

              So, none of the gorlopans proposed any reasonable actions for Kuropatkin. From which it is clear that Kuropatkin acted almost optimally. (His only mistake - and forced, he was forced to give a battle - did not interrupt the contact near Mukden in time, did not depart in time as he was about to. The reason is politics: they demanded battles and victories.).
              1. 0
                12 July 2018 22: 07
                Quote: AK64
                From which it is clear that Kuropatkin acted almost optimally.

                Yeah .. a loss under Liaolian, a loss near Mukden, the surrender of Port Arthur, you know very well the optimal solutions ..
              2. -1
                13 July 2018 17: 10
                We have fans of the Japanese war some kind of longing and great interest. A lot of people deal with this topic. And it’s clear why. The consequences of losing this war are equal to disaster. With all the military preconditions, Russia simply had to win this war without any problems with the slightest application of forces and mind. Therefore, all sorts of ideas arise that both Rozhestvensky and Kuropatkin were not so bad. And they did everything right, and all that. But it turned so and so. But...
                They were a product of the system. And what they gave, then they gave. The result is a disaster. Rather, its beginning.
                I do not have to be particularly competent. Not a single good general, by the way, has a special mind. A common person. Only strong-willed qualities are different. It is enough to compare the source data. This data is not so bad. Given the location of the Japanese army overseas. If for some reason we lost the war at sea, then they could be kicked out of the continent. Just did not even make an attempt. None. Everything was done in response to the actions of the Japanese. So do not fight. Rather, those who fight like that always lose. To understand this, you absolutely do not need to know the subtleties of Kuropatkin’s plans and personality, his strategy, and generally something else. You can still talk and argue about armadillos and shells. But there’s no need to talk about Kuropatkin. It would be better to sit and compose books further.
              3. -1
                13 July 2018 17: 27
                And the second.
                The Internet makes it possible to talk about anything and anyone. Even get personal and allow yourself to say something to someone (in this case mine), which in ordinary life can easily cross your mouth.
                Therefore, I ask you to write a detailed comment in defense of the gene. Kuropatkin. Maybe even write an article. Suddenly, because of my incompetence, I will become your ardent supporter, having learned something radically new? My point of view: the complete incompetence of the command of General Kuropatkin on the front of the Russo-Japanese War. Evidence: 1) the complete absence of at least some positive results of his activities, 2) the successes of the Japanese as a result of his so-called activities.
                I want to hear your arguments. Without personally characterizing me personally in any way. Whoever I am and whatever ..
                There were a bunch of articles and opinions on our admirals. About Kuropatkin did not hear anything polemic. Help.
  19. -2
    23 July 2018 10: 04
    Ha. It dawned on the fact that not only liberals were to blame for everything?

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