PPS vs MP40: the battle of the legendary submachine guns

These are the two most famous submachine guns of World War II: the German MP-40 and the Soviet PPSh.

The first was developed by the German gunsmith Heinrich Olmer in 1938 year. Those who call this submachine gun "Schmeisser" - wrong. Hugo Schmeisser had nothing to do with him. The only thing he had was a patent for a store and a mechanism for latching a store.

The PPSh submachine gun was developed by the Soviet designer Georgy Shpagin and put into service at the very end of 1940 of the year. From the very beginning, PPSh was designed so that it was extremely easy to produce, even in enterprises that did not have complicated tooling and serious machines. Many other countries were forced to develop such weapon already in the process of war. In the USSR, the most simple in production and technological PP appeared before the war.

To find out which of the pistols and machine guns is better, the experts of the Kalashnikov concern carried out several tests.

Comments

[Black sniper]

Of course, PPSh, in addition to the advantages in the video, lying down is more convenient to shoot and ammunition is more than 71 versus 32, the rate of fire is twice as much, and more ... !!!

[Andrey Yuryevich]

Quote: Black Sniper

Of course, PPSh, in addition to the advantages in the video, lying down is more convenient to shoot and ammunition is more than 71 versus 32, the rate of fire is twice as much, and more ... !!!

when you consider that the "shop" at PPSh, did not fit every "machine" (was almost “registered”), then there’s another question: who should give the laurels to ... at the front, this is not an option to “fill” cartridges when you can pick up any whole “magazine”. But, PPSh is certainly good, it stops the action of a pistol cartridge, and a small rebound urban combat conditions, it is important. even in Afghanistan and Iraq, the Americans enjoyed.

[Royalist]

Andrey Yuryevich, the problem with the shops was the software of the first issues, and then it was eliminated

[Andrey Yuryevich]

Quote: Royalist

Andrey Yuryevich, the problem with the shops was the software of the first issues, and then it was eliminated

it’s so, but they had already released by that time, enough to have time to torment ourselves, in our school (1975) there were three “emasculated” PPShs, they were on duty at the Eternal Flame, and they used all kinds of “lightning”, so they had two discs interchangeable, and one specifically to one machine was, release 1944, that's all.

[2329 Carpenter]

Quote: Andrey Yurievich

Quote: Black Sniper

Of course, PPSh, in addition to the advantages in the video, lying down is more convenient to shoot and ammunition is more than 71 versus 32, the rate of fire is twice as much, and more ... !!!

when you consider that the "shop" at PPSh, did not fit every "machine" (was almost “personalized”), then there’s another question: who should give the laurels to ... at the front, this is not an option to “stuff” cartridges when you can pick up any whole “store”. urban combat, it’s important. even in Afghanistan and Iraq, the Americans enjoyed it.

The trunk of the PP is incredibly motionless. In the muzzle brake / compensator - one of the geniuses of G.S. Shpagin, created in the PCA.

[Royalist]

The material is certainly good, but I would like to make some clarifications.
1) it is not entirely correct to compare the 9 mm Luger and 7,62TT upon arrival, and they have already said about this below, the initial velocity of the MP38-40 bullet is 380 m., And the speed of the PPSh500 is m. The significant difference.
2) PPSh actually- the improved version of PPD. Degtyarev created his PPD back in 1934!, And then various modifications went on. The last version of the sample 1940 had almost the characteristics that PPSh, but it was difficult to manufacture and filling the store was a pleasure, there were frequent distortions, and in battle it was a card. Therefore, Shpagin either created his own version of an almost repeating PPD, but it is easier to manufacture.
There was a version on TV that Degtyarev simply had no education and could not calculate the store, and so - almost brothers

[svp67]

Quote: Royalist

Therefore, Shpagin either created his own version of an almost repeating PPD, but it is easier to manufacture.

Well, what’s really there, speak directly, Shpagin just modernized the Finnish Suomi .... or the German MP-18 ...
Do you even understand how stupid all this sounds?

[silversnow]

Why is it wrong to compare them? These are two samples that were used on the battlefield by soldiers of the opposing armies. If one ammunition has a greater initial velocity of a bullet, better flatness, better breaks through obstacles - then a comparison is in its favor.

[AK64]

No.

You shot from PP yourself? They didn’t shoot - therefore, "flatness, initial speed ..."
So: all the PP - byaka. Yes Yes. Due to the monstrous scatter (a consequence of firing from the rear whisper), it is pointless to discuss all these “nastiness” --- this “nastiness” can be achieved only by holding the PP in the machine.

Punching ability is better, say? But this 7.62 bullet did not kill well - it killed much worse than the 9mm pair (and a 9mm pair killed worse than the 0.45 ACP)

[slaventi]

What you say is exactly the opposite of the test. The scatter is about the same when shooting automatically. And there are a lot of such tests. Show another test ... A bullet with a large penetrating ability. And that means a high speed. It has the ability to hit the enemy at longer distances. That is, it has an advantage over the 9 mm stopping bullet. . The greater the speed and penetration, the greater the damage to the enemy and physical, including .. Common truth.

[polpot]

PPSh is a mass weapon of total warfare, nicknamed the “balalaika”, which was assembled by schoolchildren and women in small enterprises, MP weapons of officers and non-commissioned officers, complex and expensive to manufacture, each of the systems had advantages and disadvantages, for a total war, PPSh was better, this is a fact.

[svp67]

Quote: polpot

MP weapons of officers and non-commissioned officers, complex and expensive to manufacture, each of the systems had advantages and disadvantages, for a total war

Do not tell ... the main carriers of the German MP are employees of the Todt organization

[AK64]

Now check out the prices of Mp and PPSh - you'll learn a lot of new things
(Hint: PCA is much more expensive)

[slaventi]

And again, you are frankly lying. PPSh is much cheaper and easier to manufacture, which is also indicated by the numbers 5mln PPSh against 700 000 MP 40

[AK64]

And again, you are frankly lying. PPSh is much cheaper and easier to manufacture, which is also indicated by the numbers 5mln PPSh against 700 000 MP 40

A young man, before blaming someone for a lie - would have wiped his snot.

You need to look not at the circulation, but at the price. The price is well known, for both MP and PPSh. And PPSh was quite expensive - it is a flat and well-known fact.
And, by the way, a much cheaper and more advanced PPP was produced only in the amount of 1 million.

So the next time, before screeching, read the facts

[WATCH_OFFICER]

Gentlemen, the cartridge decides everything in this weapon, and the cartridge for PPSh is 7.62x25, against the cartridge MP 40 9x19 it is heaven and earth. Wings of Russia has a good film, World War II Small Arms, which shows a comparison of these 2 samples .... Look who hasn’t seen, very revealing ...

[AK64]

Yes Yes. Heaven and Earth: A couple of heaven, and 7.62 Mauser - ....

That is precisely why the Pair is still in service, and 7.62 TT (aka 7.65 Mauser) was decommissioned once and for all.

(In principle, it was a very serious mistake that they hadn’t switched to 30x9 in the 25s, which would require minimal changes)

[Oleg 53]

It is necessary to add that PPSh without a magazine is easier than MR, PPSh has two horn and disk magazines, the disk is more convenient in the trench because the shooter is located lower, the horn magazine rests on the ground or floor and the projection of the shooter above is easier to shoot. Again, when fighting in the city, the store is 70 better than 30 and there is evidence of this now. Often, special naz on AK catches the disk from the PKK during the attack aircraft. The Germans tried to fit the wooden butt to the MP, but it was a small batch of weapons. It is also important how much MR and PPSh were produced last 5 times more. Yes, and the Germans themselves used PPSh both in the original and changed the barrel and the store under the cartridge of Luger.

[NF68]

The first was developed by the German gunsmith Heinrich Olmer

The name of this specialist is VOLMER, not Olmer.

[BISMARCK94]

That the Germans loved and ran with our PPSh, that we ran with the MP-40

[NF68]

The main drawback of the MP-40 was the weak, 9x19 mm. pistol cartridge. In this case, 7,62 x25 mm. PPSh cartridge gave some advantage when firing at a distance of more than 120-150 meters.

[aws4]

weak? cartridge of a powerful military pistol .. which has its own advantages over 762 x 25

[NF68]

Quote: aws4

weak? cartridge of a powerful military pistol .. which has its own advantages over 762 x 25

The initial speed of bullets fired from the MP-40 did not exceed 320-400 m / s. and aiming range did not exceed 100-150 meters. For PPSh and PPS, the initial velocity of the bullet was equal to 480-550 m / s. and aiming range up to 200-300 meters. Knowing this significant drawback of pistol cartridges and submachine guns developed for these cartridges, German arms companies have been offering their assault rifle options since 1927:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/sturmg
ewehre.htm

with "intermediate" cartridges with sleeves from 30 mm long. up to 46 mm. As a result, the Germans decided to use an intermediate cartridge 7,9 x33 mm. In the USSR, in the middle of the Second World War, they decided to adopt the intermediate cartridge 7,62x39 mm.

[aws4]

iiiiii ???? and it didn’t occur to you that the initial velocity of a bullet is not everything ??? and it never occurred to you that the bullet 9mm steam is heavier than 762 TT ??? and the caliber is larger with all the consequences .. each of these cartridges had its pros and cons .. and still think at your leisure why half of WWII guns fired exactly 9 pairs at that time there were no NATO standards .. further more - where did you get these 100 -150 ??? MP 38-40 worked confidently up to 200 meters and its function in the troops whose main weapon was still a rifle, he fully justified, judging by the additional weapons that increase the firepower of subunits at close range .. yes, our submunitions had a more flatter trajectory due to the cartridge used but at the same time they had a worse stopping effect and injuries from them were easier than from a heavier bullet of a larger caliber 9 pairs ... and I do not need to write about intermediate cartridges this question I studied already 30 years ago and this with a completely different story ... everyone chose a middle ground for themselves The Germans and a good half chose 9 pairs in the USSR, counted differently, but at the same time, both PPs remained in the same niche as auxiliary and not main weapons .. whatever you say, these are two powerful pistol cartridge !!!

[NF68]

Quote: aws4

iiiiii ???? and it didn’t occur to you that the initial velocity of a bullet is not everything ??? and it never occurred to you that the bullet 9mm steam is heavier than 762 TT ??? and the caliber is larger with all the consequences .. each of these cartridges had its pros and cons .. and still think at your leisure why half of WWII guns fired exactly 9 pairs at that time there were no NATO standards .. further more - where did you get these 100 -150 ??? MP 38-40 worked confidently up to 200 meters and its function in the troops whose main weapon was still a rifle, he fully justified, judging by the additional weapons that increase the firepower of subunits at close range .. yes, our submunitions had a more flatter trajectory due to the cartridge used but at the same time they had a worse stopping effect and injuries from them were easier than from a heavier bullet of a larger caliber 9 pairs ... and I do not need to write about intermediate cartridges this question I studied already 30 years ago and this with a completely different story ... everyone chose a middle ground for themselves The Germans and a good half chose 9 pairs in the USSR, counted differently, but at the same time, both PPs remained in the same niche as auxiliary and not main weapons .. whatever you say, these are two powerful pistol cartridge !!!

It occurred to me how the Germans really tried to establish the shortcomings of their submachine guns created under machine-gun cartridges after they got acquainted with Soviet PPSh and when developing assault rifles, the Germans who developed during WWII for some reason chose the caliber 7,92 mm. Rather than 9 mm and the fact that after the war, German developments under the cartridges of 7,92x33 mm. and 7,65x35 mm., the French were seriously interested, but the French apparently did not know that the caliber was 9 mm. more preferable than 7,92 mm. and decided to make machines for cartridges 7,92x33 mm. The same applies to the Spaniards who developed automatic machines for cartridges 7,92x33 and 7,62x51 mm., And not under 9 mm. and also used the experience of the Germans during the WWII. 200 meters for the MP-38 / 40 was the maximum distance at which these PPs could still be used relatively effectively.

[beeper]

I haven’t watched the films of the Kalashnikov concern for a long time. they do not carry any useful information, alas
Some kind of comparison was made by the “consultant (associatively Bulgakov’s“ consultant ”, who was also just formally called), was clearly not a good shooter.
On punching hollow bricks at such a close distance, not everything is so simple either, at such a distance both cartridges provide a fairly good penetration of obstacles, apparently two "counted" by the "consultant" penetration were achieved by getting 7,62 mm bullets into the holes made by previous shots, since aimed shots from this "consultant" obviously did not work and the hits were random in nature, without taking into account the hollow cavities in the bricks (or cinder blocks?). And he, on the basis of two random holes, has already made his far-reaching "conclusions", haste ?!
About the "rate of fire" this "consultant" should know that even before WWII, the German gunsmiths conducted special studies on the topic of determining the rate of automatic shooting, at which the best control over the weapon is preserved!
The optimal rate of automatic shooting, which ensures the best controllability with a submachine gun or assault rifle (automatic), is 450 ÷ 600 rounds per minute (all competent gunsmiths, including Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov, knew this to achieve just such a pace in their models they tried to!), that is, the MP-38/40 with its pace of about 450 rounds per minute has the best controllability in automatic firing (like the Sudaevsky PPS-42/43, with its pace of 600-650 rpm), and not PPSh with its excessively high, megaraconsumption rate of automatic firing (in addition, stability, constancy, speed (acceleration-braking) characteristics of the shutter during the production of the burst of shots are of great importance - with this, for all Shpinski systems, under the pistol TT cartridge and experienced, under the intermediate cartridge of 1943, there were some problems!)!
Shpaginsky, a very effective muzzle brake compensator, the heavy weight of the PP itself and the light 7,62 mm pistol bullet provide PPSh stability during automatic shooting even despite the not very stable shutter speed characteristics!
In close combat, a burst of PPSh could cut a man, for which he received the front-line nickname "meat grinder"!
The PPSh and PPD disk store (and these are completely different designs of Soviet submachine guns, contrary to the "authoritative statements" of some, not quite competent, commentators above!) Experienced Soviet soldiers never charged at full capacity, usually about 60 ÷ 63 rounds, there were no refusals due to the fault of the store, and the “gramophone spring” used in it often did not possess the necessary properties (by the way, for the same reasons, experienced machine gunners did not equip Degtyarev Infantry disk “pancake” to the full capacity (47 rounds ), and somewhere on 43 cartridges and fastened, for safety, from the top to the movable cover of the machine-gun disk store an auxiliary strap for manual assistance to the "exhausted spring" and visual signaling of cartridge consumption).

[silversnow]

Please tell me what a bad shooter I am. I love to listen to clowns.

By penetration - do you even imagine the difference in the initial speed of the bullet cartridge 9x19 and 7.62x25?

[beeper]

Oh, is that you, Silversnow, that “consultant” ?!
Yes, and, it’s obvious, with the “complexes” (and you work in the circus, which , since “love to listen to clowns”?), where does such self-abasement about the “bad shooter” come from, did someone say that to you or do you “hear” only what meets your underlying “expectations”, and you read it inattentively ??
I know the "difference in the initial velocity of a bullet," but you know what the kinetic energy of a bullet is, and how it changes depending on the distance ?!
You want to say that you are a very good shooter ?!
So on your hits in the movie you can’t say this , do not argue and be self-critical - this is the basis for self-development! Just "wind up" must be what they find necessary for you from a broad heart. TELL more experienced and knowledgeable comrades!
I attribute your ardor and youthful resentment (with childish “name-calling”) to puberty, unsettled, psyche — I didn’t at all think that you still, in your Soul, a vulnerable child, didn’t build up “thick skin” at all and you’ll be so painfully reacting to scraping self-esteem (?), frowning criticisms of "stupid clown commentators" like your humble counterpart .
I sincerely apologize to you, Silversnow, and if you are so pleased with gracious self-deception, I’ll say that you are just a wonderful shooter, you get great aiming shots and you’re great at everything related to weapons, weapon theory, shooting and all near-weapons subjects , because it is so clearly seen in your mega-cognitive performance !!!
No offense! I wish you success in self-education on the chosen topic and in Creativity, I will be sincerely glad to Your Achievements and do not rest on your laurels, value Life in all its manifestations and always find a rational kernel, correctly perceive friendly criticism and do not persist in delusions, it’s not constructive !!!

[Catfish]

Quote: svp67

Quote: Royalist

Therefore, Shpagin either created his own version of an almost repeating PPD, but it is easier to manufacture.

Well, what’s really there, speak directly, Shpagin just modernized the Finnish Suomi .... or the German MP-18 ...
Do you even understand how stupid all this sounds?

As far as I can see, comrade The royalist about Suomi did not write a word. And in your opinion, it turns out that at first Degtyarev “tore off” the Finn, and then Shpagin “modernized” him. Is Bergmann here from which side? Well, and whose "stupidity sounds" here in the end? In my opinion, not a Royalist ...

Quote: svp67

Quote: polpot

MP weapons of officers and non-commissioned officers, complex and expensive to manufacture, each of the systems had advantages and disadvantages, for a total war

Do not tell ... the main carriers of the German MP are employees of the Todt organization

And really funny! Judge by one photo, please? Oh well...

By the way, about PPSh, and more precisely about its disk: there was a capricious (disk) design: in winter conditions, if you didn’t even remove light grease, it froze and the spring refused to deliver cartridges. Moreover, if you hammer your butt on a solid object, the machine gun planted all 70 rounds in white light in one fell swoop. And then he just started spitting in front of himself. For free, something for the PCA was then introduced a sector store of reduced capacity. Yes, in terms of manufacturability Shpagin beat Volmar completely, and thank God. And the German had his own shortcomings. And, be that as it may, Victory remained with us.

[Daniel]

By the way, about PPSh, and more precisely about its disk: there was a capricious (disk) design: in winter conditions, if you didn’t even remove light grease, it froze and the spring refused to deliver cartridges.
Something hard to believe

[AK64]

Wings? Tails? No!
British sten --- here is the best PP of the second world war. (Well, after him, the faculty and Amerovsky M3)

Well, if you compare MP38 / 40 and PCA, it’s clear that MP is better: at least because it is corny much cheaper, more reliable, and (due to a more successful cartridge) it killed much better.

[NF68]

Quote: AK64

Well, if you compare MP38 / 40 and PCA, it’s clear that MP is better: at least because it is corny much cheaper, more reliable,

How much did PCA cost and how much is MP38-40?

[AK64]

How much did PCA cost and how much is MP38-40?

Teach you to use Google?
The cost of PCA in 1941 was 500 rubles. Three: 163 rubles, light machine gun DP with spare parts: 1150 rubles.

True, they say that by the 43rd cost of PPSh fell to 150 rubles. (The cost of three and DP for the same year is not clear)

The cost of MP-40 is the equivalent of 24 US dollars. That is, for the 41st year, MP is one-off cheaper.

In general, the stories about the "cheapness of Soviet weapons" --- these are the stories: everything, in the slightest degree, was worth much more expensive than "theirs".

[NF68]

Quote: AK64

Teach you to use Google?

Give it a try. This question is asked for those who know this data without any searches in Google.

[Stiletto_711]

Quote: AK64

British sten --- here is the best PP of the second world war.

Oh yeah! Bravo! Bis! I have not heard such sparkling humor for a long time
PPP is the best PP of the second world without options

[AK64]

Oh yeah! Bravo! Bis! I have not heard such sparkling humor for a long time

However, it is STEN

[slaventi]

Again you lie. The best PP 2 world war is PP Sudaev and it is recognized by all.

[sds127]

Quote: AK64

if only because it is corny much cheaper

thanks, neighing)))

[ingvar1951]

The best PP of the Red Army and, in general, the 2nd World War is PPP. The best enemy PP is Beretta, not the MP-40. Stan's advantages are ease of production and compactness, as well as rubbish.

[AK64]

Stan's advantages are ease of production and compactness, as well as rubbish.

Try to strain and understand the obvious thing: ALL PP is equal rubbish. Equally. Rubbish. All.
PP is not a weapon, but its ersatz. And it was not made from a good life, but by the lack of normal weapons.
Well, if so, since PP is ersatz - what is the main advantage of PP? That's right: price and manufacturability. Since PP is all the same ersatz --- then it should cost much cheaper than normal weapons (which it replaces).
So, by these very signs, the STEN is definitely ahead of the rest.

PS: Well, if you forget about the price and manufacturability, and consider only "from the point of view of the user," then Thompson. Definitely Thompson. All the same, not PPSh (and not even PPS).
But Thompson was expensive and complicated even for amers, and they themselves produced a simple (and poor) M3. (But to make simple and cheap, but good at the same time --- actually impossible: these are conflicting requirements)

[ingvar1951]

I don’t have to strain. I shot from all this, as well as from ultrasound, Beretta and another dozen PPs that were produced before the mid-70s. In addition, I have at my disposal the experience of my father, who went through the war with the PCA, besides, I’ve been two years he worked with an armament specialist who was repeatedly shot at the iron that got to us. What was there just there? Only a boy of 9-10 years old could name all the rubbish, at 15 they already understand that the bullets are used for a certain range of tasks, otherwise they won't developed and did not produce. Do not consider yourself competent by reading a couple of directories and surfing the Internet

[AK64]

Only a boy of 9-10 years old could call all PP rubbish, at 15 they already understand that PP is used for a certain range of tasks, otherwise they were not developed or produced.

What are the "tasks" ??? In the years of WWII, all participating countries produced PP, and MASSOVO produced them! Used as the main weapon - and not at all for a "narrow range of tasks." That is the whole point --- outside the "narrow circle of special tasks", PP is a bad weapon, in principle a bad one. And it’s impossible to make it good. But they produced PP in large quantities, and not only Soviet, but even rich Americans.
The purpose of this production is precisely the ersatz weapons, to quickly and cheaply arm the army (and not just special units - say police or escort).

Do not consider yourself competent by reading a couple of guides and surfing the internet

Funny you: You, meanwhile, shot (and even dad dragged in, although it would seem what does your dad have to do with it?). And besides you, no one meant to shoot? So, on the basis of personal (PERSONAL) shooting experience: all PPs are equal to byak. And the fledgling Uzi is also byak.

PS: And I can also mention dad - I have this right. So another time, before being rude to strangers - think about whether you personally have such a right, and whether you are the only one from the whole world like that of an “expert with PCA”

ZZY: I said that "all PP is equal to byak." This is not entirely true: in comparison with others, PCA is not just bad, but very bad. But due to the PCA as a "weapon of victory", this obvious fact can not only be understood by everyone.

ZZZY: But PPP is one of the best WWII times. (The best in the row byak, of course, because "all PP is equal to byak") Also a fact.

[ingvar1951]

Concerning the father. The opinions of a man who spent a year and a half clean, apart from 2 hospitals, spent on the front line have much more weight than the weight of a couch expert. Again, byaky. It turns out that the military experts of almost ALL countries of the world are round because they continue to produce PP and develop new models. Maybe you set them on the right path. Speaking of Thompson, consider a weapon weighing almost 5 kg as optimal for the user
only the one who this user never was. By the way, during the war years, PPs were not the main weapon. The main weapon remained the store rifle. By the way, it was the assessment of Soviet experts before the PP war as byaky (thank Marshal Kulik) that led to the lack of these weapons in the Red Army . Practice has shown its necessity. By any means any weapon that is used for purposes that are not intended. A less universal weapon appeared only with the advent of an intermediate cartridge, during the war all countries had to use both PP and rifles. So the rifle in some situations will be byaka.

[AK64]

Concerning the father. Opinions of a man who is a year and a half clean

Bring your dad then, and I'll talk to him myself. Do you agree? At the same time, I’ll check the documents. And then after all, not a veteran is a veteran of escort teams. (My parent died in the 71st, at the age of 48. And my grandfather in the 45th, in August --- at the age of 45. So they just fought, and even “returned from the war.”)

And you see, you never heard a kind word about PPSh from veterans, real veterans somehow. .

It turns out that the military experts of almost ALL countries of the world are round because they continue to produce software and develop new models.

Why are you lying? Where and who "makes and develops" software for the army? All PP today is a police weapon, and nothing more. Or separate (expensive and not at all massive) special samples for special tasks. So think about why all the armies abandoned this happiness after WWII immediately (as soon as they could) ..

Maybe you guide them on the true path.

They, so you know, yourself. Themselves. That is why, even before WWII, not a single normal army considered PP as a weapon. We were not eager to somehow adopt, in the presence of a considerable number of samples.
Yes, the police accepted (in negligible amounts) - that is, that is. Well, all sorts of gangsters. But where are the gangsters and where are the armies?
So you would have thought "why?"

Speaking of Thompson, considering a weapon weighing almost 5 kg is optimal for a user,

You exorcise me, but you told me here that stredlally personally from all samples? Well, if so, then you should understand the difference between Thompson and the same PCA. And the difference is simple: all wartime PP shot from the rear whisper. But Thompson - no: his shutter was "half-closed." What provided (this is for those who really shot from the PP and understands the problems of shooting from the PP) a much higher accuracy.
In addition, Tommy Gang had an excellent cartridge of 0.45 ACP. Yes, great.
As for the weight: and the driver of the car, or a crew member of the tank, do not care this one extra, in comparison with the PCA, a kilogram? (The fact that in the USSR and even in England the Tommy Ghans armed the infantry - well, not because of a good life, but because of a lack of normal weapons)

By the way, during the war years, PPs were not the main weapon. The main weapon remained the store rifle.

Sorry, it wasn’t you just saying that your dad was a “half-war with the PCA”? Or did he not hug you at the front with him?
And for whom did they produce 6 million PPPs + 1 million PPPs (a total of 7 million, but it is believed that PPPs managed to produce up to 2 million)? If for crew members BTT, then will not be too much? And besides, more than 3 million Walls, 1.5 million Thompson, More than a million pieces of MP-40 were produced. Isn't it a bit much for the gendarmerie?
So, they began to produce PP everywhere in huge quantities precisely because of the lack of normal weapons (that is, rifles). The British, for example, after Dunkirk. USSR since the fall of 1941. Well, the Germans reached mass only in the 44th --- until that moment they did not have such significant losses of small arms.

.By the way, it was precisely the assessment of Soviet experts before the PP war as byak (we thank Marshal Kulik) that led to the lack of these weapons in the units of the Red Army.

You have an interesting “logic”: first, “Yes, I didn’t take it,” and then suddenly “returned the whole”. Would you choose one thing or something?
As for your specific statement, then: Firstly, it’s far not only Kulik. Secondly, the assessment was correct - that's just you (and other equally fiery "experts" are unlikely to understand this). Thirdly, not only Kulik, but also all the armies of the world somehow did not want to take this byak, PP, into service. And why, interesting? Did Kulik convince them all? Or did they know something?
PP (I repeat again) is a weapon of escort teams and the police. Well, the crews of military vehicles ("in case of what"). This joy is not needed for normal (not poor) armies

Practice has shown its necessity.

Yeah - and because all the armies of the world joyfully parted with this "need" immediately after WWII.

Byakka can be considered any weapon that is used for purposes for which it is not intended

Right Here are just the "target" of the PP - convicts. Well, or a demonstration of citizens. Because it is by nature a police weapon. (Well, or weapons of the assault groups, that is, a “trench broom.” But they also refused this happiness, in favor of assault rifles)

A less universal weapon appeared only with the advent of an intermediate cartridge,

Yes, yes - one more byak, another military ersatz, joyfully received only by the USSR (which has eternal "own special pride").
The intermediate cartridge is also a byak. It is clear that it’s easier to create automatic weapons for him. That's just his power for the army is insufficient. And everyone understands this - except for those who deliberately advertise this happiness as a "huge victory" (because they don’t know how to make normal weapons, but they also don’t want to admit it - for salaries and personal pensions)

during the war, all countries had to use both PP and rifles. So, in some situations, a rifle will be byaky.

Enough throat, huh? Your comments consist of 85% of the most primitive slogans at the level of "a field of a fool - pieces well done". For me it is obvious that your "knowledge" is gleaned from the Pioneer truth.
This is your last posting that I am reading and replying to. Bring your dad - I’d better talk to him. And I'm not interested with you: the feeling that I'm back in the 70s, and on the radio Pioneer Dawn.

[ingvar1951]

Well, uh .... well, you. I would never allow a word of doubt to be expressed in relation to a war veteran if I do not have accurate data that this is a lie. My father went to the front at the age of 16 immediately after his birthday. At the end of 42 They took 16-year-olds. And he started from the Kursk Bulge. His face and shoulder were fluttered with bullets. He said about his shortcomings and advantages. Under Kharkov, because of sandy soil, he didn’t shoot without cleaning, heavy, but this is what was needed then. In general, your opinion about small arms is completely nonsense. I express respect for the memory of your ancestors who fought in the Great Patriotic War (and not WWII) it’s a pity the descendant brought up rot ...

[air wolf]

This specialist has never served in the army, the most important thing in weapons is reliability with minimal care. And PPSh also has a carob store! After the performance of this cyber specialist from IzhMash, I am afraid for the future of our weapons ...

[Egg]

Once upon a time, in a distant, distant galaxy ...
But seriously, in childhood, being 4, 5, 6 classmates, we dug up so many dugouts and trenches around Belgorod ... there were a lot of weapons from the Great Patriotic War, any, and PPSh and MP 38/40 and rifles and machine guns we are out of it on the white mountain at the most .. in general.
So, according to the boy’s feelings, getting into the bottles from the Schmeiser was not easy, he was bullied not childishly, and there were enough failures, although it was preserved better than the PCA, there were boxes with new automatic machines in general, wrapped in grease oiled paper.
PPSh came across much worse, with traces of rust, scabbling, clogged with earth, but shooting with them was a pleasure.
There is no return, THERE IS NO!, Drum shops 71 cartridge, about the fact that they were not interchangeable then we did not even suspect, I heard about this only now on this forum (how did we put them in then?)
Heavier PPSh yes (well for us guys it was very noticeable), but he got comfortable and with his hands, without stopping, like with a battleboat, to the entire store ... only the spray flew from the bottles, mmm beauty, and how much fun :)
In terms of accuracy, reliability, reliability, the MP was not even nearby.
So you still argue, theorists, and my childhood memories, personal, say: PCA is a machine, a thing!
And as for slaughter, a 9mm bullet will crawl under your skin or sew 7,62 from the PPSh for departure, it makes no difference, in the conditions of the front you are no longer a fighter, the hospital is provided for you, and the infection of blood and gangrene is especially stubborn. And that means the main goal: disabling enemy manpower achieved.

[ingvar1951]

In general, you are absolutely right. By the way, more weight increases the accuracy of shooting, so this is not always a drawback. By the way, with pistols I preferred the M1911A1, the machine is quite heavy but quite stable when shooting. The 9 mm bullet has a higher stopping effect, i.e. faster will make the enemy ineffective, but a more powerful cartridge 7.62 -25 can hit the enemy at a greater distance. A low rate of fire reduced the reliability of the German machine gun.

[Larum]

In fact, they wrote earlier that a high rate of fire is a minus.
And they got rid of the round horn by the end of the war, uncomfortable.
A folding butt is clearly a minus for accuracy. With a wooden butt MP-40 were like?