Military Review

Flowers of death. "Dum-dum" and other killer bullets

104
Officially, the use of explosive bullets is prohibited by the Hague International Convention in the distant 1899 year, but even today they continue to be used in military operations. And American designers call them expansive ammunition used for hunting big game.


Flowers of death. "Dum-dum" and other killer bullets
Modern Expansive Cartridges


Sliced weapon and its disadvantages

The appearance in the 19th century of a huge number of types of rifled small arms was a period of mass experiments, the purpose of which was to improve munitions capable of destroying an enemy soldier with one shot, if not destroyed.

In smooth-bore weapons, excellent results showed lead bullets, which, when hit the target, flattened out, causing terrible damage to the enemy. But the appearance of rifling barrel, increasing the range and accuracy of the shot, changed everything. Lead bullets were deformed and torn from rifling, and the accuracy of hitting targets fell sharply.

The way out was the production of shell-type cartridges. In them, a lead core protected a dense copper, brass, nickel silver or steel coating that clung tightly to the rifling of the barrel and gave the bullet excellent ballistic characteristics. They accurately hit targets from a distance, but the wounds they inflicted were not terrible enough. And even several times the wounded soldiers could continue to conduct combat operations.


Modern shell cartridges of various types


Shell ammunition problems

First to the shortcomings of the shell bullets drew the attention of the British, who led the colonial wars in almost all populated continents. They were especially struck by the endurance of African natives and Maori warriors, who, even with several holes in their chests, continued to attack the enemy, falling only after accurate hits to the head or heart.

The first sign of discontent showed in 1895, the British soldiers who fought in the Indian Khanate Chitral, located on the border with Afghanistan. They stated that the ammunition they were issued was ineffective, since the wounded Afghans did not fall after the first hit.

Recharging rifles took a long time, and the advancing natives categorically did not want to die, from which the soldiers concluded that Her Majesty’s Government decided to save by providing them with low-quality cartridges.

The way out was suggested by Captain Neville Bertie-Clay. He proposed producing slightly modified bullets for the .303 British cartridge, which was used as ammunition for Lee-Metford and Lee-Enfield rifles.


Different versions of .303 British ammunition

The officer simply removed about a 1 mm copper alloy from the tip of a standard bullet. The lead core became bare, and the effect of hitting targets surpassed even the wildest expectations.

The first batch of ammunition was produced at the gun factory in the Indian city of Calcutta. It was located in the suburbs of Dum-Dum, which gave the name to the most terrible small arms ammunition of that time.

Flying death

Tests of new cartridges took place in a combat situation and demonstrated their incredible effectiveness. When hitting the target, the bullet stopped even the strongest man on the run. The wounded man was literally thrown back, and in most cases he could no longer stand up. Pieces of flesh flew from his body to the sides, which is why bullets began to be called discontinuous. But they were not torn apart inside the body, as many people still think.


Through wound jaw bullet "dum-dum"


During the Anglo-Boer Wars, a number of photographs were shot in the press in which the victims of dum-dum bullets were captured. With a relatively small inlet, the exit was a huge ragged wound, and after being wounded in an arm or leg, the limb could only be amputated.



It was enough for the British only once to hit the native who attacked them, to make him completely incapable, inflicting complex bone fractures, ruptures of internal organs and numerous soft tissue injuries. The overwhelming majority of victims of the dum-dum bullet died within half an hour, having failed to cope with the injuries and painful shock.

Stop the process of self-destruction of humanity

At the end of the 19th century, explosive bullets, like the machine guns that appeared, became the most terrible weapon of that time, which put humanity on the brink of physical destruction. Some military experts compare machine guns and explosive bullets with modern nuclear weapons, to defend against which is almost impossible.

Even the British government realized what could end the future world war, the reality of which even then no one doubted. Together with 14, the other leading countries of the world signed the Hague Convention on the Prohibition of the Production and Use of Explosive Bullets in 1899.


Dum-dum explosive bullets sold in every gun shop


For several years, most of the other countries of the world joined this convention (do not forget that at that time vast territories were colonial possessions, and the total number of independent states was not very large).

Machine guns, which perfectly fired cartridges with an integral bullet shell, but jammed with explosive ammunition, decided not to prohibit it. And they said their terrible word on the fields of the First World War, literally "mowing" the advancing chains. It is even difficult to imagine how many people would have been killed in this war if the opposing sides had also used explosive bullets.

Shooting for the "cross" in the pool

True, both the First and Second World Wars still did not completely dispense with the use of explosive cartridges. Despite the official ban, many soldiers made them in an artisanal way.

During the period of calm before the battle, some soldiers of all armies without exception took files and grinding stones into their hands. With their help, they grind off the tips of their cartridges, or made X-shaped cuts on them.

Such a simple manipulation turned an ordinary bullet into an explosive one. She collapsed on hitting the bone and opening up inside the victim in the form of a “death flower”. In combat, the use of such ammunition gave a serious advantage, but it was categorically impossible to be captured. In all armies, there was an order to shoot at the place of any prisoner in whom explosive cartridges or accessories for their manufacture would be found in their pouch.

Explosive bullets of the USSR

The Soviet Union also did not completely abandon the idea of ​​giving its servicemen explosive bullets. Several design offices worked on the creation of domestic “dum-dum”. Even prototypes of DD and P-44 ammunition were presented.

The main obstacle to their further production of steel is the small firing range (300 meters instead of the required 500 m), as well as the low ballistic characteristics of the bullet. According to the leadership, the enemy could easily shoot the Soviet fighters from a far distance, which, naturally, did not suit anyone in the USSR.

Despite the ban, large-caliber explosive bullets are still used to hunt large animals because of their stopping power. Prior to the widespread use of pump-shotguns, special forces soldiers used explosive bullets to destroy terrorists in crowded places, especially on airplanes.

True, the powder charge in these munitions decreased so that the bullet did not “pierce” a person through and did not give dangerous ricochets.


SP-7 pistol cartridges with plastic-tipped bullet

The special units of Russia are still used by Soviet cartridges SP-7 and SP-8. They have a light plastic core with six special notches applied to the front edge of the shell, allowing the bullet to open up in the form of a “death flower” with six petals.

Incendiary bursting ammunition

To circumvent the ban, designers from different countries started developing ammunition, the bullets of which would really be torn apart into small pieces when hit the target.

Inside the bullet capsule was placed a charge of explosives, which detonated when in contact with the target. In fact, a microexplosion was heard in the body of the victim, which multiply the damage to the internal organs. They are much more dangerous than the notorious "doom dum", but they have one very significant drawback, which the designers still cannot fix.


Even a minimal charge of explosives found in modern explosive bullets can detonate at any time. This is especially dangerous in a combat campaign. Soldiers can move on armored vehicles or rushes, fall and crawl, and the detonation of even a small bullet can lead to serious injuries, permanently disabling the soldier.

They are very expensive to manufacture, so they are most often used by snipers who hit targets with large-caliber rifles from a distance of several kilometers. Incendiary explosive bullets have a similar principle of action. aviation machine guns and anti-aircraft air defense systems.

Bullets with offset center

The Pentagon was the first to place an order for the purchase of a fundamentally new automatic cartridge 5,56x45 mm, the bullet of which had an offset center of gravity. During the flight, such a bullet demonstrates excellent ballistics, but when in contact with the bones, it sharply changes its direction. In fact, she begins to tumble, causing terrible internal injuries to the victim. Often it breaks, leaving a few fragments in the body.


Hitting a tree with just one bullet with an offset center

The Soviet Union did not lag behind, presenting a small pulse cartridge 5,45x39 mm, which is suitable for firing from a Kalashnikov AK-74 machine gun and its later modifications. Due to the small air cavity in front of the center of gravity of the bullet is shifted back, forcing her to tumble when hitting the target.

Such cartridges have much less penetrative power than cartridges of caliber 7,62 mm AK-47, but cause much more serious injuries to the enemy, leaving his body at an angle 30-40 degrees from the original direction of the shot.

Modern fragmentation bullets

Today, the production of ultra-efficient rifle ammunition is gaining momentum. The Americans presented a variant of fragmentation-penetrating bullets, which are not disclosed, but fly apart into several (usually 8) fragments. When this bottom continues to move in the form of an independent hitting unit and tearing everything in its path.



Such ammunition is proposed to be used in civilian weapons, primarily in pump-action shotguns. According to the American authorities, they can more reliably protect the lives of US residents from the attack of criminals and terrorists. But we know that any civilian weapon very easily turns into a combat one. A stockpile of expansive ammunition can be very helpful not only for special forces soldiers, but also for militants who are preparing to commit a major terrorist act ...
Author:
104 comments
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  1. Sidor the Fierce
    Sidor the Fierce 5 July 2018 15: 15
    +5
    Well, a very democratic ammunition, the most for those who do not live freely and not democratically.
    1. your1970
      your1970 11 July 2018 12: 36
      +3
      1) 5,45 of such a thickness a tree is not like tearing large pieces - breaking through it is unlikely
      2) of the 11 cartridges of the first picture, the 7 shell is partially missing ... they are not "shell"
      3) police and hunting weapons are in no way (generally !!!) regulated by The Hague - exclusively military weapons used by the army
      4) and certainly no one was sitting and sawing bullets in the Second World War..not before that it was ...
      the wound in the photo could have been inflicted by an ordinary bullet, which lost speed sufficient to penetrate but not yet quite small. That’s where the bone turned out ...
      1. your1970
        your1970 13 July 2018 10: 28
        0
        and another poster with a wound depicts a bullet wound (left) and SHARDING (right)-there is a fragment of a shell / grenade drawn, but not a bullet
        not an article, but so-so ...
      2. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 10: 30
        0
        Any oblong pointed bullet tumbles, some bullets begin to tumble faster in the wound than others. The Soviet bullet of the 5,45 first releases with a cavity in front of the core begins to roll upside down after 10 cm of passage in the body.
  2. Vard
    Vard 5 July 2018 15: 52
    0
    Which is good for those who shoot ... a very small breakdown ability ... but stopping power ... like an elephant kicked ... So one vegetable is not sweeter than radish ...
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 5 July 2018 17: 27
      0
      At the request of the FBI, a bullet must pierce from 12 "to 18" inches to reach vital organs through any projection, read through the bones of the arms and legs, etc.
  3. Bormanxnumx
    Bormanxnumx 5 July 2018 15: 56
    +27
    A confused and superficial article, a lot of scary words are mixed in: Doom-Doom, a bullet with a displaced center of gravity, difficulties with ZMD bullets, PZ (which in commercial quantities are already released as small as 100 years)
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 6 July 2018 06: 23
      +6
      Quote: BORMAN82
      Chaotic and superficial article, a lot of scary words mixed in
      Yes, the whole article, in general, comes down to the last picture.
      This bullet is advertised everywhere, although it is for a rifled short barrel. In itself - full slag.
  4. alex-cn
    alex-cn 5 July 2018 16: 24
    +16
    Firstly, these bullets are prohibited only for the army, but not for the police. Secondly, after reading the article, I strongly recommend that the author go on a bear, or better, on a buffalo with a full-shell bullet. Without a doubt, he will not write such articles anymore ...
    1. Mikhail Matyugin
      Mikhail Matyugin 5 July 2018 17: 22
      +2
      Quote: alex-cn
      . Secondly, after reading the article, I strongly recommend that the author go on a bear, or better, on a buffalo with a full-shell bullet. Without a doubt, he will not write such articles anymore ...

      I apologize to ask, and with what bullets do you go on such hunts, if you really go?
      1. alex-cn
        alex-cn 5 July 2018 17: 48
        +6
        Basically - with a fraction. And when they ran a lot for elk - Poleva -2. Now the sores are sick. And so official active hunting for more than 40 years. And in the army he was a lieutenant.
        1. Mikhail Matyugin
          Mikhail Matyugin 5 July 2018 19: 57
          +4
          Quote: alex-cn
          Basically - with a fraction. And when they ran a lot for elk - Poleva -2

          Is it a bear with a fraction? Yeah. Tell me with a knife and a bundle of wire. laughing Isn't a regular ball better?
          1. alex-cn
            alex-cn 6 July 2018 04: 49
            +2
            Of course, with a fraction not for the beast. And so I checked a lot of bullets. Better than Polev 1, 2 of the tested ones ... the mayer was good, but according to his drawings, not the factory ... "Prok" was not bad, the Rubeikinsky caps, the guys did the uniform, Brenneke, but not ours, German. Everything else is much worse ...
            1. Mikhail Matyugin
              Mikhail Matyugin 6 July 2018 10: 27
              0
              Quote: alex-cn
              Better than Polev 1, 2 of the tested were not ... good mayer, but according to his drawings, not factory ... "Prok" was not bad, Rubeikinsky caps, guys made uniforms, Brenneke, but not ours, German. Everything else is much worse ...

              In general, in my opinion, and in the opinion of a person who is a real professional hunter, an ordinary ball “Sputnik” is the best option, because Do not ricochet from branches. Poleva, Rubeykina, Brenneke (at least ours) - high rebound rates from branches, that’s the whole difference ...
              1. alex-cn
                alex-cn 6 July 2018 11: 26
                +3
                Honestly, I didn’t even check the roundabouts ... but from the stories of people who also know this matter and literature, the round bullet is one of the most ricocheting and inaccurate. There is a known case when a round timber after 3 !! ricochet, the shooter seriously wounded in the next room, after which there was a ban on their use in the hunts. Although the accuracy is very much dependent on the type of barrel.
              2. dokusib
                dokusib 7 July 2018 08: 38
                0
                "Satellite" bullshit. Gualandi is our everything.
                1. Mikhail Matyugin
                  Mikhail Matyugin 7 July 2018 11: 59
                  +2
                  Quote: dokusib
                  "Satellite" bullshit. Gualandi is our everything.

                  A very arrogant statement, and most importantly - not supported by anything.
            2. Titsen
              Titsen 8 July 2018 02: 53
              0
              Quote: alex-cn
              Better Polev 1, 2 of the tested were not


              Poleva 3, Poleva 6 and Poleva 6u - that's our everything!



              Poleva 3 differs from Poleva 6 and Poleva 6u only in weight - lighter.

              And all three are torn at a time!

              1. Mikhail Matyugin
                Mikhail Matyugin 8 July 2018 10: 57
                0
                I liked the Poleva 6 by sight, I’ll test it (I heard negative reviews only about old modifications of Polev’s bullets)! And what is its difference from Polev 6 U, if the weight is the same? greater directional stability?
  5. Zaits
    Zaits 5 July 2018 16: 47
    +24
    Bullets with a displaced center - is that sophisticated trolling?
    Or the author even pictures with a comparison of the wound channel from 5,45x39 and other things never saw in principle. And the fact that all pointed bullets have a shift in CT relative to half-length is not even guessed.
    1. ARES623
      ARES623 5 July 2018 18: 05
      +19
      Quote: Zaits
      And the fact that all pointed bullets have a shift in CT relative to half-length is not even guessed.

      To do this, you need to know a little geometry. The shift of the CT to the bottom of the bullet began with the transition from blunt-headed bullets to animated bullets to the beginning of WW I. Therefore, bullets of a caliber of 7,62 mm tumble in the body. Tumbling is the result of many related factors, such as the weight of the bullet, the speed of the bullet when entering the target, the speed of rotation, the density of the target, its uniformity, etc. A fragmentation of a bullet when it enters the body is more dependent on the manufacturing technology of the bullet and the materials used. For example, a USA 7,62mm NATO bullet with a 0,81 mm thick tompack shell, passing through the gelatin block when fired from a distance of 3 m, flies unchanged, a similar FRG production bullet with a copper clad steel shell with a thickness of 0,5 mm in the ring groove under the same conditions of a shot, "shatters" into many large and small fragments.
      In general, if you undertake to write on such narrow topics, you need to delve into them, at least a little.
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 10: 44
      0
      Well, if we consider the light bullet of 5,45 of the first issues with the front part unfilled with lead inside the shell in comparison with, say, the conventional bullet of the 1943 cartridge, then the center of gravity of the 5,45 bullet is really closer to the heavier rear part than the center of gravity bullets cartridge 7.62x39.

      This is the simple physical meaning of words that some tend to give an almost mystical character.
  6. vindigo
    vindigo 5 July 2018 16: 59
    +4
    The last fragmentation bullet should be held by a bulletproof vest for 2 classes already.
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 6 July 2018 06: 26
      +2
      Quote: vindigo
      The last fragmentation bullet should be held by a bulletproof vest for 2 classes already.
      Apparently, the whole article was collected for her sake.
      For a year and a half, this ad is shoved wherever possible.
  7. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin 5 July 2018 17: 23
    +3
    Despite criticism from some, I liked the material, thanks to Roman Zabolotsky, in my opinion - a good article where everything as a whole is shown correctly and interestingly.
    1. Curious
      Curious 5 July 2018 18: 46
      +14
      I can not share your positive opinion. The author, apparently, does not understand what he is writing about. Therefore heaped, expansive, fragmented and explosive bullets.
      The text uses terms that do not exist in nature such as "shell type cartridges".
      Not bullets, but bullets shellless and shell
      About a displaced center of gravity in general rubbish, led by the Pentagon.
      The author absolutely does not understand the difference between combat and hunting ammunition.
      And the sacramental AK-47 for a snack. Already, it would seem that everyone knows that such a machine gun was not in service, but this image is immortal in the ranks of amateurs.
      Honestly, such articles should not be published at all due to the author’s complete lack of understanding of the issue.
      1. Mikhail Matyugin
        Mikhail Matyugin 5 July 2018 20: 01
        0
        Quote: Curious
        The text uses terms that do not exist in nature such as "shell type cartridges". Not bullets, but bullets can be shellless and shell
        Well, do not judge strictly, can it just be attributed to the author’s slip? wink

        Quote: Curious
        The author absolutely does not understand the difference between combat and hunting ammunition.
        Well, I don’t know what you got it from, I didn’t think so. And just a question - but what about the cartridge for Makarov’s pistol? Do you personally attribute it to combat or hunting? (After all, he has, for example, like a good hunting charge, the stopping effect is serious, and penetration is so-so). That is why, by the way, I never understood people going hunting with rifled and “sewing” animals who will not even smell this in the heat of the moment and run away with wounded animals.
        1. RuslanD36
          RuslanD36 5 July 2018 20: 48
          +4
          Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
          Well, do not judge strictly, can it just be attributed to the author’s slip? wink


          The text must be double-checked so that there are no descriptions.

          And just a question - but what about the cartridge for Makarov’s pistol? Do you personally attribute it to combat or hunting?


          Which one? Maybe you do not know about the wide range of this cartridge?
          PSO GZ is clearly civil. Another thing is that there is no such division at all. It’s just that each cartridge and bullet has its own task.

          Amateur article.
        2. Curious
          Curious 5 July 2018 21: 26
          +5
          "Well, I don’t know where you got it from, I didn’t think so."
          Well, I don’t know if a person writes about the use of explosive bullets in hunting weapons, then, as for me, this indicates complete ignorance of the issue.
          Cartridge PM refers to pistol. Such characteristics as the stopping, killing, penetrating action of a bullet cannot be considered in isolation from its kinetic energy. Cartridge 9x18 in terms of energy is suitable for hunting except for small rodents of the hamster type.
          As for the use of rifled weapons in hunting, with the right ammunition and the ability to shoot, it gives excellent results and does not “sew” anyone. If we take the "fenced-off" SVT-40 and the cartridges stolen from the warehouse of the military unit, then yes, it "sews".
          1. Mikhail Matyugin
            Mikhail Matyugin 6 July 2018 01: 44
            +1
            Quote: Curious
            Such characteristics as the stopping, killing, penetrating action of a bullet cannot be considered in isolation from its kinetic energy. Cartridge 9x18 in terms of energy is suitable for hunting except for small rodents like "hamster"

            Hmm, but I heard that even a bear was thrown up from Makarov in an extreme situation ... But how is it, the theory is again destroyed by living experience?

            Quote: Curious
            As for the use of rifled weapons in hunting, with the right ammunition and the ability to shoot, it gives excellent results and does not “sew” anyone. If we take the "fenced-off" SVT-40 and the cartridges stolen from the warehouse of the military unit, then yes, it "sews".
            Dear Victor, it would be interesting to hear your suggestion on choosing a rifled for hunting moose and a cartridge for them.
            1. Curious
              Curious 6 July 2018 07: 56
              +4
              In 2002, a sixty-year-old man in Canada killed a cougar attacking him with a penknife. Will you say that a penknife is a hunting weapon?
            2. Curious
              Curious 6 July 2018 08: 24
              +2
              "... Your proposal for the selection of rifled for hunting moose and a cartridge for them."

              MERKEL 160E 9.3x74R.
              1. Mikhail Matyugin
                Mikhail Matyugin 6 July 2018 09: 40
                0
                Quote: Curious
                MERKEL 160E 9.3x74R.

                Victor, thanks, great choice, nothing to show. except ... its fabulous price ...
                1. Curious
                  Curious 6 July 2018 10: 25
                  0
                  I tried to choose an inexpensive model. The MC - 110-09 will be cheaper, but the 9x53 cartridge, even with the A - SP bullet, will be weak if the moose is more than 300 kg.
          2. Simargl
            Simargl 6 July 2018 06: 32
            +1
            Quote: Curious
            Cartridge 9x18 in terms of energy is suitable for hunting except for small rodents of the hamster type.
            Come on! Not bad for a fox either. Up to 20 kg will do.
            1. alex-cn
              alex-cn 6 July 2018 17: 30
              +1
              In principle, 9x64 is also not bad, both in the tiger and in the moose ...
              1. Curious
                Curious 6 July 2018 17: 37
                0
                I picked up the fitting.
                1. alex-cn
                  alex-cn 6 July 2018 17: 46
                  0
                  I also like the nozzle more, but bucksflints ... we had on the basis of the TOZ55 “Bison” in his hands, but didn’t shoot .. beautiful, contagious, but heavy. Browning has it, but the price ... Yes, and I do not need a fitting already ...
                  1. Curious
                    Curious 6 July 2018 18: 04
                    +1
                    Bucksflint with vertically paired trunks - this is Bockbüchsflinte - bokbuksflint.
                    1. alex-cn
                      alex-cn 6 July 2018 18: 07
                      +1
                      I think that this is already an excusable mistake ... it happens ...
                      1. Curious
                        Curious 6 July 2018 18: 35
                        0
                        What does it mean already? What are you - 168 years old, as Muslimov.
        3. Grid
          Grid 6 July 2018 23: 52
          +1
          And just a question - but the cartridge for the Makarov pistol

          And which one?
        4. The comment was deleted.
        5. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 11: 41
          0
          But the cartridge for Makarov’s pistol, do you personally refer to which one - military or hunting? (After all, he has, for example, like a good hunting charge, the stopping action is serious, and penetration is so-so)


          There is no "stopping action of a bullet" as a thing in itself, without mentioning who exactly this bullet stops.

          The PM bullet was made for a dystrophic post-war generation of men weighing 70 kg and a height of 160-170 cm, and today there are "elephants" weighing under 100 kg and a height of 180 cm everywhere. So today the PM bullet does not have any outstanding stopping effect, if the Americans consider action solid bullet .45 ACP inadequate.

          To the bear? Yes, you are crazy. From a short-barrel to a bear, as a means of self-defense, a caliber of at least .44 Magnum is suitable.

          Those who live in Alaska say that .44 Magnum is enough. Someone, probably, would like to praise 9 mm PM or 9 mm Parabellum, but they will not be able, because they are eaten by a bear.
      2. Grid
        Grid 6 July 2018 23: 57
        +2
        I can not share your positive opinion. The author, apparently, does not understand what he is writing about.

        I agree with you forever. The author really does not know that the same Berdanka had a completely lead (with the addition of antimony) bullet. Lead began to be cut from rifling when they tried to reduce the caliber to 8 mm. And at the same time increase the initial speed to 600 m / s.
        1. Curious
          Curious 7 July 2018 00: 03
          0
          As you can see, even the most irreconcilable opponents have common points of view.
          1. Grid
            Grid 7 July 2018 00: 11
            +3
            This is reality...
            For example, I don’t like fucking like the law of conservation of momentum, but it is ...
            I do not like you and your comrade Shpakovsky ... And, what if one of you uttered something sensible, I need to take pains and expose?
            1. Curious
              Curious 7 July 2018 01: 22
              +2
              "I do not like you and your friend Shpakovsky ..."
              Modern psychologists argue that enemies are sometimes necessary. True enemies are much better than fake friends.
              1. Grid
                Grid 7 July 2018 10: 28
                +1
                Modern psychologists argue that enemies are sometimes necessary.

                Well, let's not put enemies. At least I have no desire to tear your head off.
                1. Curious
                  Curious 7 July 2018 14: 39
                  0
                  I will try to get better.
                  1. Grid
                    Grid 7 July 2018 19: 43
                    +2
                    I will try to get better.

                    In what sense?
                    Why would I have the aforementioned desire?
                    No, really. Let's just stay opponents.
                    1. Curious
                      Curious 8 July 2018 15: 33
                      0
                      I do not know. I will consider both options.
                      1. Grid
                        Grid 9 July 2018 10: 35
                        +2
                        Curious (Victor) I don't know, I don't know

                        Come to visit you and still tear your head? :)))
        2. AK64
          AK64 7 July 2018 11: 02
          +3
          Quite so: the British Peabody Martini killed the Zulus, as did the Berdanka of the Khiva, without any holes and cuts in bullets. (Despite the fact that both the Zulu and the Khiva people usually went into battle under the foolishness --- "military stimulants")
      3. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 13 September 2018 12: 45
        0
        Quote: Curious
        And the sacramental AK-47 for a snack. Already, it would seem that everyone knows that such a machine gun was not in service, but this image is immortal in the ranks of amateurs.

        But they managed to publish a brief service manual for the "7,62-mm Kalashnikov assault rifle (AK-47)". smile
        1. Curious
          Curious 13 September 2018 13: 01
          0
          AK-47 - one of the pre-production samples, as well as a small series of prototypes No. 2 (1500 pcs) produced in the spring of 1948 for military trials. It was for her that the guide you mentioned was compiled. According to the results of these military trials in 1949, the 7,62-mm Kalashnikov assault rifle (AK) and the 7,62-mm Kalashnikov assault rifle with a folding stock (AKS) were adopted.
  8. TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 5 July 2018 20: 30
    0
    The author writes nonsense. There were no bullets with a displaced center of gravity. Neither ours nor Amers. The only exception is the bullet to the "Cliff", in which the center of gravity is shifted to the tail to spin at the end.
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 6 July 2018 06: 38
      +2
      Quote: TermNachTER
      The only exception to the cliff bullet
      It is not paradoxical, but in an all-metal bullet, the CT is usually shifted back.
      For bullets with a gas generator (tracers, incendiary) - the central heating unit can be shifted forward.
      Expansive bullets with a cavity - CT is shifted back.
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 6 July 2018 18: 34
        0
        I had in mind that it was done on purpose, and was not a design feature of this munition.
        1. AK64
          AK64 7 July 2018 11: 07
          0
          And you are wrong: there are target cartridges with a central warhead specially biased back. This increases accuracy, because when a bullet exits the barrel, the effect of the destabilizing "tracking force" is less (in time and less in distance)

          But here the goal is different --- accuracy.
      2. Grid
        Grid 7 July 2018 00: 03
        +2
        Paradoxically,

        It is not paradoxical, but for any bullet the center of mass is located in the leading zone.
        1. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 7 July 2018 17: 21
          0
          As a knowledgeable person explained to me, at the "Cliff" specially the bullets had an offset towards the tail so that they would tumble at the end and give more dispersion. And you say that the shift of the CT to the tail increases accuracy. I don’t really understand the internal and external ballistics. Our main focus was practical shooting, but I believe that person.
          1. Grid
            Grid 7 July 2018 19: 14
            +1
            As a knowledgeable person explained to me,

            but I believe that person.

            Very vain.
            1. For any bullet, the center of mass should be in the leading part. That is, in that part of the bullet that is directly in contact with the barrel.

            This is a martini-henry bullet. All Lead.
          2. Grid
            Grid 7 July 2018 19: 20
            +1
            2. The pointed bullet has a large live zone. Accordingly, in order to ensure its normal guidance along the bore, it is necessary to shift the center of mass closer to the bottom. In the English pool MkVII, this was done using a double core. At the head was aluminum in the bottom lead. If the core is made completely lead, then the CM will just fall on the border of the leading part. Which is not very good for accuracy.

            so that at the end they tumble and give more dispersion.

            If the bullet somersaults on any part of the trajectory, then this is a marriage.
            1. TermNachTer
              TermNachTer 7 July 2018 20: 20
              0
              They were required to somersault at the end, so that there would be a spread and it was possible to cover a group goal
              1. AK64
                AK64 7 July 2018 23: 46
                +3
                Quote: TermNachTER
                They were required to somersault at the end, so that there would be a spread and it was possible to cover a group goal

                Sorry, but these are fairy tales.
                The cliff has enough dispersion already without that, at least due to the inevitable shaking when shooting
          3. AK64
            AK64 7 July 2018 23: 44
            +2
            You should understand that this person, that told you this, did not see these somersault bullets. That is, it is a retelling of other people's words. I’ll notice that this can’t be something: the bullet may be at the end due to air resistance, but the gyroscopic moment, that is, stabilization, doesn’t depend on speed at all, and the air resistance affects it negligible.

            But the accuracy of the shift of the DH back increases. And why is it so - I explained above: the action of the tracking force at the time of exit from the trunk is less
            1. gross kaput
              gross kaput 20 July 2018 20: 44
              -1
              Quote: AK64
              it doesn’t depend on speed at all, and air resistance affects it negligible.

              In the form of a stuffing - what is the reason for replacing VOG17 with VOG17M?
              1. AK64
                AK64 21 July 2018 10: 48
                0
                In the form of a stuffing - what is the reason for replacing VOG17 with VOG17M?

                In black, by itself.
                What did you think?
                1. gross kaput
                  gross kaput 21 July 2018 19: 49
                  0
                  So as not to write a lot and tedious, I suggest you read a little about the reasons for switching to VOG-17M, maybe you will learn something and you will not be so categorical
                  Quote: AK64
                  that is, stabilization, it doesn’t depend on speed at all, and air resistance affects it negligible.

                  The prehistory is that some time after the adoption of the AGS-17 with VOG-17, such a thing surfaced - a large number of grenade failures when firing at ranges close to maximum (according to some reports, the problems started already from 1200-1400m), debriefing showed that at long ranges grenades lose their stability and come to the target sideways cancer, which leads to the failure of fuses and increased dispersion. As a result, VOG17M was hastily created, the weight distribution of the grenade was changed, and most importantly, a self-liquidator was introduced into the design of the fuse. So not all yoghurts are equally useful and the loss of stabilization may also depend on a decrease in flight speed if the ammunition is not stabilized initially, i.e. there is an non-optimal ratio of lateral load to rotation speed.
                  PS if you touch the shooter then take an interest in working out the cartridge ?, 62X39 US - there, when working out, there was also a rather instructive story with irons due to loss of stabilization when the speed drops.
                  1. AK64
                    AK64 22 July 2018 11: 19
                    0
                    Of course, I know nothing about VOG-17. (Yes, and you can’t know everything.) But I passed the external ballistics in due time. And the principles are the same even for VOG-17, at least for what.
                    Let me repeat:
                    loss of stabilization when speed drops
                    - for a gyrostabilized projectile this is .... how to put it softer .... completely wrong.
                    You can, of course, come up with an aerostabilized shell. (feathered shell, mine). But aerodynamic stabilization is weak (see the plumage size), and therefore to achieve any noticeable result only by shifting the CT forward will not work. (not to mention the low usefulness of such a projectile)
                    But this is your phrase
                    loss of stabilization may also depend on a fall in flight speed if the ammunition is not initially stabilized, i.e. there is a non-optimal ratio of lateral load to rotation speed.
                    says that you understand the question very roughly.

                    Any elongated projectile is aerodynamically unstable (a cylinder with a height less than a diameter will be aerodynamically stable). An aerodynamic tipping moment acts on the projectile, which, of course, is proportional to the square of the speed. That is, when the speed decreases, the destabilizing force decreases as the square of this decrease. While the loss of gyroscopic moment due to friction against air is negligible.

                    There is, however, a nuance that, however, has nothing to do with speed (which you insist on): on steep paths (like grenade launchers), the tangent to the path (local speed direction) and the gyroscopic moment will sooner or later be at an angle to each other - --- the so-called angle of nutation. (The gyroscopic moment seeks to preserve the absolute, initial, direction, and the trajectory bends, as a result of which the projectile flies sideways.) Here the problems begin, yes. But they are in no way connected with the "drop in speed."

                    There is a theory on this subject, and it is, of course, interesting. But only to the Cliff, which has a completely trajectory trajectory, this is unlikely to have anything to do with it. Nobody will unstabilize a machine-gun shot so that the bullets at the end of the trajectory tumble - because it is obvious that such bullets penetration (which is very important for a heavy machine gun) is negligible.
                    1. gross kaput
                      gross kaput 23 July 2018 23: 05
                      -1
                      I repeat once again - the example with the VOGs was given as the most described, the second example is the cartridge US 7,62X39
                      Quote: AK64
                      An aerodynamic tipping moment acts on the projectile, which, of course, is proportional to the square of the speed. That is, when the speed decreases, the destabilizing force decreases as the square of this decrease.

                      March 1954, military tests of PBS devices and US cartridges, breaks from rifling and dismantling of bullets were not found, but at a distance of 100 meters there are 7% oval holes, and at 400 meters such holes are already 50% - well, smoke and explain to me how a person
                      Quote: AK64
                      But I passed the external ballistics in due time

                      how is this possible? wink
                      1. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 23 July 2018 23: 32
                        -1
                        Yes, and another question to catch up - AK74 rifling pitch 200mm AKS74U rifling pitch 160mm cartridge is the same - initially 7n6 the transition to a more "strained" pitch in the AKS74U was a necessary measure - it did not fly as it should from a short trunk and shallow rifling - here What is the reason, in your opinion?
                      2. Zaits
                        Zaits 26 July 2018 18: 38
                        0
                        Although I never handed over external ballistics, I can confidently say that with the same rifling pitch, the gyroscopic moment depends on the speed of the bullet at the exit from the barrel. And the design of the bullet itself greatly affects its stabilization. In fact, everything suggests that the initial version of the US cartridge bullet had very poor stabilization (tests of 1955). Then this jamb was fixed (tests of 1956).
                        Another question, there are strong doubts that "the loss of gyroscopic moment due to friction against air is negligible." At a minimum, this statement may not entirely correct. So, in addition to the example with CSS, we can recall the problems with the loss of stabilization during the testing of the 5.56x45 complex by the Americans. It was found at low temperatures, with increased air density.
                        Given that the only mechanism (phenomenon) that can increase the "loss of gyroscopic moment due to friction against air" is precession, the answer must be sought in the mechanisms of its occurrence, imha.
  9. Hiller
    Hiller 5 July 2018 22: 13
    +1
    Interestingly, the author taught physics? "shifted center of gravity" .... ridiculed
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 6 July 2018 06: 41
      +2
      Quote: hiller
      made fun of
      In a gross bullet, a steel core almost never sits in the center. The displacement of the central heating is not only longitudinal, but also axial!
      How do you like such a turn ?! tongue
      1. Hiller
        Hiller 6 July 2018 23: 45
        +3
        You and I didn’t drink at the Brudershaft. So I'll ask more politely. The center of gravity is the center ... and the concept of the limit of ballistic stability seems unfamiliar to you tongue . How do you like this turn?
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 18 July 2018 14: 36
          0
          Quote: hiller
          The center of gravity is the center
          Center of what? Severity.
          And a bunch of geometries.
      2. Grid
        Grid 7 July 2018 00: 05
        +1
        Learn physics, boy ...
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 18 July 2018 14: 36
          +1
          What is wrong?
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 11: 59
      0
      Interestingly, the author taught physics? "shifted center of gravity" .... ridiculed


      And what is so wrong or sacred in these words?

      A bullet of a lively form with a high ballistic coefficient. Its center of gravity will be where there is more metal - closer to the rear of the bullet. Due to the air cavity in the 5,45 pool, its center of gravity is even more biased towards the rear in comparison with the position of the center of gravity of the cartridge bullet 7,62x39.

      No mysticism.
  10. CAT BAIYUN
    CAT BAIYUN 5 July 2018 23: 20
    +6
    Well, we’re crawling, with a shifted center of gravity, you don’t need to tell so scary. The effect of the displacement of the center of gravity of the bullet to its rear part is not small. But what would be direct with an offset and a separate category to highlight .... In vain. Maybe you should go deeper into the topic? Well, or at worst read the comments ... There are a lot of cases. But don’t need this “shifted center of gravity”. It was inspired by my childhood and stolen cartridges in holey pockets of children's pants .... Nostalgia ....
    1. dokusib
      dokusib 7 July 2018 08: 52
      +1
      Best comment
    2. Ace Tambourine
      Ace Tambourine 8 July 2018 23: 58
      +2
      and in my childhood my pockets were whole, and stuffed not stolen, but found by the PPSh cartridges, Schmeisers, and even there weren’t any ...
  11. brn521
    brn521 6 July 2018 11: 18
    +2
    The shifted center of gravity in the early 5.45x39 is from the category of tales. This is the same as open hatches of tankers. Those. many heard, some even saw something, but there is no documentary evidence. But there are quite logical premises to this topic.
    Small-caliber bullets had insufficient striking effect. The only permitted way to pick it up is to make the bullet tumble somersault when hit. The Americans partially solved this problem when adopting the M16 at the expense of a short bullet, increasing the pitch of the rifling in the barrel of early weapons. The disadvantage of such a solution is the reduction in the armor piercing of the rifle itself, she did not spin the bullet of any cartridge she shot. And in an untwisted bullet, armor-piercing is reduced and no armor-piercing core practically helps here. Later, the Americans refused this decision and made rifles with normal rifles - it was necessary to hit targets that were behind light shelters or armor, and even in bulletproof vests.
    According to the tales, ours solved the problem of the damaging factor in another way. They did not spoil the machine, increasing the pitch of the rifling. Instead, the bullet’s center of gravity was thoroughly shifted back (technologically, this very center of gravity is already shifted backward by almost every second shell bullet, but not so much). This is also a way to reduce the stabilization of the bullet, especially when passing the border of two environments. The disadvantage is that such a bullet ricocheted strongly. And here is a coincidence, there are a lot of early tales on the theme of monstrous ricocheting properties of 5,45x39. Up to the point that it was impossible to storm the premises with such weapons: from a line fired in the doorway, at least one bullet flew back at the door. Plus, again, a monstrous spread in the shooting of light obstacles - this can also be a consequence of a displaced center. And this is also a widespread bike - for example, it is impossible to get an opponent who has sat behind a bush, because branches and leaves are very scattered bullets.
    But officially we did not have any bullets with a bullet with a displaced center of gravity. In state tests, our bullet was more "humane" and somersaulted less than the bullet from the early "M-16". No special nomenclature has been approved for bullets with a center of gravity bullet. Many employees heard only tales, but personally did not encounter such properties 5,45x39. In the rooms this cartridge was again used and is used without any problems. Well, modern reconstructions do not give any significant results in confirmation. As for the same branches - yes, 5,45x39 sometimes gives a spread of 1,5 times more than 7,62x39. More bullets lose their stability and begin to tumble, giving ellipses on the target. But for bullets to fly almost at an angle of 90 degrees, this is definitely not.
    Hence the conclusion. If there was such a cartridge, it was produced in small batches, was carefully conspiratorial and did not have any distinctive markings.
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 6 July 2018 18: 37
      0
      The Kalashov bullet 5,45 ricocheted and changed the flight path when it hit a person because it was light.
    2. Zaits
      Zaits 7 July 2018 02: 51
      +3
      In the only open source that I met and aroused trust, a little was said about another. The meaning is approximately the following.
      A quick loss of bullet stabilization after hitting the target is ensured by the presence of a “technological cavity” in the front of the bullet. Namely, the crushing of the hollow part leads to a significant increase in the overturning moment, which, in turn, leads to an increase in the precession. And the stronger the precession of the bullet, the faster the energy of the rotational movement of the bullet is transmitted and the faster stabilization is lost.
      Here is such an entertaining mechanics. And by the way, in the pool of the first sample there is a noticeable layer of lead between the steel core and the cavity. And as you know, lead is noticeably heavier not only luminium, but also iron, which should lead to certain thoughts. That is, no one specifically displaced anything anywhere, Ihma.
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 7 July 2018 17: 17
        0
        You are talking about an expansive bullet, they are also called hollow-headed. But they are mainly for short-trunks. Automatic bullets with either a core or solid.
        1. Grid
          Grid 7 July 2018 19: 49
          +1
          You are talking about an expansive bullet, they are also called hollow-headed. But they are mainly for short-trunks.

          Yeah:

          Well, very pistol ...
          Automatic bullets with either a core or solid.

          Solid bullets for combat weapons from the mid 80s of the 19th century are very rare. For a variety of reasons.
        2. Curious
          Curious 8 July 2018 23: 25
          +1
          Hollowheads are usually not called bullets. And an expansive or express void is just one way to ensure expansiveness.
          1. Grid
            Grid 9 July 2018 11: 14
            +1
            Yeah. In some places, they also insert a wedge ...
      2. brn521
        brn521 9 July 2018 16: 05
        0
        Quote: Zaits
        In the only open source that I met and aroused trust, a little was said about another.

        From a similar source, I recall the following. In 5,45x39, the cavity had a purely technological character. Factories made it easier to press quality bullets with a clear and uniform weight distribution. Later, when they started making armor-piercing cartridges with a tool steel core, they began to fill this cavity with lead completely, because she reduced armor piercing. But as a result, accuracy in firing from a machine gun decreased, i.e. decreased production quality.
    3. Grid
      Grid 9 July 2018 11: 18
      +1
      was carefully conspirated

      Just because he was not ...
    4. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 12: 06
      0
      At state tests, our bullet was more "humane" and tumbled less than a bullet from the early "M-16".


      No way. Our bullet begins to somersault in the wound earlier than the NATO one, and its humanity is that it does not fragment, does not collapse, only the tip bends. The NATO bullet is fragmented.
  12. Gavrohs
    Gavrohs 6 July 2018 14: 42
    +1
    If anyone is interested, here the video can be traced as the trajectory of the bullet itself and its petals (for example, a gel)! I think that every third cartridge in the store of your personal pistol, should be just that!
    1. AK64
      AK64 7 July 2018 11: 13
      0
      Quote: Gavrohs
      I think that every third cartridge in the store of your personal pistol should be just like that!

      Will seize.
      Suitable for a revolver, yes. (But I would have cost a banal and much cheaper "hollow point", or an even cheaper "flat point")
      1. Grid
        Grid 9 July 2018 11: 16
        +2
        Will seize.

        Not a fact. It all depends on the pool entry of a particular sample.
    2. macgyver
      macgyver 10 July 2018 13: 55
      0
      Yeah, even lubricate the curare ... or in the garbage can bucket ...))
  13. alex-cn
    alex-cn 6 July 2018 18: 59
    +1
    Curious,
    no, but I’m getting close to the second pair ...
  14. raw174
    raw174 9 July 2018 07: 18
    +2
    The wounded was literally thrown back

    It is doubtful ...
  15. Note 2
    Note 2 10 July 2018 13: 55
    0
    .It should be reminded to the author that in most armies of the world, with the exception of some African ones, bullets are completely shell with a steel core. Most studies conducted on expansive bullets indicate their lack of penetration, which led to their use only for hunting and self-defense. In one of the articles on Regarding the expansive bullets, the expert of the magazine "Soldier of Fortune" Peter Kokalis mentioned this shortcoming.
  16. macgyver
    macgyver 10 July 2018 14: 01
    +2
    The natives killed each other with spears and arrows extremely inefficiently and then the best minds of Europe rushed to their aid, bringing with them democratic values.
  17. Foundling
    Foundling 15 July 2018 01: 52
    0
    A masterpiece of nonsense! I already thought of hearing tales about bullets with a displaced center. They appeared exactly after the transition of the USSR army to the caliber 5,45x39. A light bullet of this caliber was much more prone to ricochet unlike the good old 7,62x39. The quality of our ammunition was not very chic even then not now (it is still difficult to find five cartridges with the same weight in one box of 20 cartridges). Imagine how a bullet weighing about 3,5 grams has “special air cavities” !!!!!!!!!! In general, the light Soviet 5,45 windrower generated a lot of tales about the "shifted CT" especially among fighters who were transferred from the relatively stable 7,62 + long trunk of SKS to the short trunk of AK74 in 5,45
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 09: 05
      0
      In the pool there really was an empty space in front of the core. In childhood, for the sake of curiosity, I opened this bullet. Indeed, the cavity was.
  18. Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 08: 57
    0
    Before the widespread use of pump-action shotguns, special forces fighters used explosive bullets to destroy terrorists in crowded places, especially in airplanes.

    True, the powder charge in these munitions decreased so that the bullet did not “pierce” a person through and did not give dangerous ricochets.


    If in a cartridge with an expansive bullet to reduce the powder charge, then the bullet will not have enough energy to open. Such undisclosed bullets completely flush the body similarly to the whole shell and in the aircraft, as the author indicates, they cannot be used.

    Therefore, for a short-barrel, expansive bullets are a light bullet and an increased charge, so that the bullet not only opens, but also punches 12 inches on demand by the FBI.

    In airplanes, there was an attempt to use "collapsing bullets", which are easily fragmented after being hit.