Their answer is "Armata". Ukraine is building a new tank

49
USSR vs independent Ukraine

The military-industrial complex of modern Ukraine and the defense industry of the Ukrainian SSR have important similarities. Both republics possessed (and Ukraine continues to possess) the ability to build basic combat Tanks. However, this community ends. During the Cold War, the Malyshev Kharkov Plant produced up to 8 thousand T-64 tanks. This machine, of course, can be treated differently, but for its time the tank was quite a breakthrough. As for the plant itself, even in the 90s it could boast of ambitious plans and, at the very least, produced MBT. In 1996, Ukrainians signed an agreement with Pakistan, which envisaged the delivery of 320 T-80UD tanks in the amount of $ 550 million. The first batch was shipped the following year, and the entire contract was fulfilled in 1999. With a pace of up to 110 tanks built per year.



Modern plant named Malyshev is not even dreaming. The situation systematically worsened in 2000, and the conflict in the Donbas, in fact, only revealed the problems that had accumulated over the years in the enterprise. Several dozens of hugely produced Oplot tanks in the interests of Thailand are the best confirmation of this. In such conditions, an attempt to develop and launch a fundamentally new tank into the series is a desperate escapism. On the other hand, the Ukrainian military industrial complex does not lose faith in the “economic miracle,” even if it is ten or fifteen years old.



Hammer and Futurized Main Battle Tank


Немного stories. Back in the Soviet years, specialists from the Kharkov engineering design bureau engaged in the development of the 477 Object, also known as the Hammer. It was supposed to be a powerful “machine” with a smooth-bore 152-mm LP-83 gun. The tank received a "monitors" layout, and the crew was below the tower. The so-beloved analogy with the modern T-14 based on the “Armata” is not entirely true: The 477 object can only partly be considered a tank with an uninhabited tower. Differences with other tanks in that the entire crew of three in this case is not above the roof of the hull. Through the hatch in the tower could sit down and leave the tank. Above the hull there was a cannon with an automatic loader, sighting systems and a number of other systems and assemblies that ensure the combat capability of the tank.

The fate of the tank can be compared with the fate of the Russian Object 195. Partly lost Soviet technology, lack of the necessary funding and a lack of understanding of the general concept of using tanks in the 21st century led to the abandonment of the project. The “Hammer” project was turned into 2000, and a number of developments were used in the construction of the above-mentioned tank BM “Oplot”. Potentially not bad, but representing a typical example of the Soviet school of tank building, with all its advantages and disadvantages.



Hammer can be considered the last real attempt by Ukrainian designers (albeit with the participation of the Russian side) to build a new tank that would not become another version of the T-64 or T-80. What appeared after him can be entered in the category of fantasy. Positioned as the tank of a new generation of Futurized Main Battle Tank from the very beginning was just a bold concept. We recall that it was presented by Ukroboronprom and Spetstechnoexport at the DEFEXPO India 2014 exhibition. By that time, the country could no longer independently produce such complex equipment in series.

It was assumed that the tank will receive the 6TD-4 engine with the 1500 horsepower. or 6TD-5 horsepower 1800 They wanted to place the motor in front of the case, and immediately after it the engineers placed a habitable module. As in the case of the Russian T-14, the new tank would be equipped with an uninhabited remote-controlled tower, and the crew would be in a specially isolated armored capsule. As the main caliber considered 125-mm gun "Vityaz" or 140-mm perspective "Bagira."



Another popular now "novelty" - a complex of active protection (KAZ). In the case of FMBT, it should have been “Barrier”. By the way, the attitude of experts to this system is ambiguous. Some say that it has no fundamental differences from the outdated active defense systems of the Soviet period, such as the Thrush, and is unable to protect the tank from anti-tank weapons. On the other hand, in April of this year, the Turks began to equip the ZXlonom-L with modernized М60. And it’s hard to believe that the modern Ukrainian military-industrial complex could offer something fundamentally better for the Futurized Main Battle Tank project. The only real alternative could be the Israeli “Trophy”, which is already being installed not only on the “Merkava”, but also on the American “Abrams”. And who, according to rumors, showed himself well.

"Tirex": the ghost of T-64

After a somewhat bizarre presentation of Futurized Main Battle Tank, very strange things began to happen. In 2016, the engineering group "Azov", which had previously declared itself the combat vehicle of support for the tanks "Azovets", brought to light a concept with the proud name "Tireks". The analogy with the T-14 arose almost immediately. There is an uninhabited tower and three crew members sitting in a row in front of the MBT. Armament standard: 125-mm gun (probably), machine guns. Offered dynamic protection in the face of the blocks "Knife" and "Doublet". They did not dare to equip the concept with an active protection complex. Apparently, because of the price, although there could be reasons for a purely technological plan. On the other hand, an ambitious idea emerged to integrate the machine into a modern unified information-command network, thus giving it superiority over Oplot and Bulat.

Finally, the most interesting thing: they wanted to do everything on the basis of ... T-64. And let in a conditional series. The main thing is incomprehensible - why do Ukrainian fighters who have suffered from T-64BM “Bulat” have new problems in the face of an undeveloped, raw tank, made on an outdated basis. The developers positioned "Tirex" as a "tank of the transition period." However, in essence, “Bulat” and BM “Oplot” are such. In any case, they are far from the most powerful tanks in the world and can (as they are) be considered only as a temporary solution.



The future of the development, obviously, no. The Ukrainian Ministry of Defense seems to have expressed its willingness to cooperate and purchase these tanks, but one can hardly expect anything like that. Now Ukraine is exploiting several different Soviet MBTs and their modifications at once, which of course goes against any concept of unification. The appearance of a new “guest” with dubious characteristics will not please anyone in this regard.

The latest statement by the Ukrainian side about the “new generation tank” appeared on the website of the Ukrainian state concern Ukroboronprom in May 2018. It was about the development by the forces of the Kharkov Design Bureau of Mechanical Engineering named after A. Morozov infantry fighting vehicle and tank. It was reported that automation will reduce the number of crew to two, and engine power will be approximately 1500 liters. from. The information was limited to this, which is generally logical. The problem is that the main battle tanks are not the most important thing for the Ukrainian army. Modern armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, anti-tank systems and communications equipment are much more important. We are no longer talking about the state of combat aviation and air defense, as well as possible purchases of new aircraft. By virtue of this, we repeat, the likelihood of a new tank of "national" development in Ukraine is extremely small. And in the future, probably, Ukrainian experts will consider replacing the T-64 with some version of the Leopard (if there is money) or the Chinese VT-4 (if not).
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  1. +16
    29 June 2018 06: 06
    Yes, there will be no new tank. Even the old T-64s cannot build. And here are new ones ... Ukraine cannot even build armored cars really, what kind of tanks can we talk about?
    1. +4
      29 June 2018 07: 46
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      Yes, there will be no new tank. Even the old T-64s cannot build

      Ukrainians have “Slavic” brains (not everyone rebounded). From past funds can make candy. And billions to pour in, those who want to line up
      1. +11
        29 June 2018 08: 23
        Ukrainians are the polished and Russified descendants of the Khazars. No they are not Slavs.
        1. +12
          29 June 2018 08: 28
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Ukrainians are the polished and Russified descendants of the Khazars. No they are not Slavs.

          laughing laughing Thank you laughing neighing from the heart ... They themselves understood the built-in tautological paradox tongue
          1. +4
            29 June 2018 09: 02
            In the 9th century, the Khazar Khaganate was located on the site of Ukraine. In 882, the Russian prince Oleg plucked the western lands of Khazaria, captured Kiev and transferred the capital of Russia from Novgorod to Kiev.
            1. +12
              29 June 2018 09: 08
              In place of my city in 882, Tofalars allegedly lived. On the site of settlements, some other VO participants, artiodactyls were saved. But most of us are Slavs
              1. +6
                29 June 2018 10: 33
                There were few Tofalars, an economy based on hunting cannot feed many people per unit of land. Agriculture made a revolution. If the economy is based on hunting, then the population density of people cannot be more than the population density of wolves or tigers; it is not without reason that in Siberia the indigenous population was so small that it can be neglected. Therefore, for example, Siberia and the Far East are almost completely populated by Russians, since there were very few indigenous people there. For example, in Ugra Khanty and Mansi in 1926 there were less than 30 thousand people, now 1,7 million people live there. Nivkhov in the Khabarovsk Territory in 1926 there were less than 5000 people, now more than a million live there. So, now the Ugra residents and Khabarovsk citizens should now be considered the descendants of the Khanty, Mansi and Nivkhs? But the Khazars already owned agriculture, and their number was great, more than the number of Russians, since in Ukraine the land is more fertile than in the Novgorod region, and could feed more people. So there were few Russians in the territories of the former Khazaria, about the same as the Normans in England after the conquest of England by William. Therefore, we can confidently say that today's Ukrainians are descendants of the Khazars. Therefore, their mentality is completely different from the mentality of the Russians; nevertheless, the Jewish past makes itself felt. Khazaria was a Jewish state.
                1. +12
                  29 June 2018 10: 40
                  I will tell you as a historian to a historian laughing There is not a single event or fact before the 15th century that can be said with confidence. Everything before the 10th century is simple Mythology
                  1. +3
                    29 June 2018 11: 04
                    If you are a historian, you should know the axiom: there is a prehistoric time, and there is a historical one. They differ in that in historical time there is writing, and according to the sources of those years, you can study history. There is no history without writing, the period before writing is archeology.
                    As for the "Dark Ages", from the 8th century for Western Europe, and from the 9th century for Eastern, the historical period begins. And before that, all these myths go through songs, epics, myths and legends.
                    1. +6
                      29 June 2018 16: 54
                      Why are you arguing, there are completely scientific ways of studying the history of peoples, writing is not required. It is only necessary to do an analysis on the haplogroup and it will become clear who with whom ... ahem, came into contact in order for the analyzed individual to appear. So, according to the analysis of DNA genealogy of modern Ukrainians, about half of them are Slavs of the “Russian” haplogroup H1R1 / 2, and the second half, as my grandmother says in such cases, is “a mixture of a bulldog with a rhinoceros”. And representatives of the second half are in power right now.
                      1. +1
                        29 June 2018 18: 49
                        as in the rest and Russian ..
                      2. -1
                        26 January 2019 18: 02
                        Quote: philosopher
                        You just need to do an analysis on the haplogroup and it will become clear who with whom ... ahem, came into contact, so that the analyzed individual appeared.

                        your prophet Klesov has already admitted that he made many mistakes in his theory, so stop praying ...
                2. +1
                  29 June 2018 22: 04
                  the ruling circles professed Judaism in Khazaria .. let it be known that most did not profess this faith and weren’t in fact Jews ... I’ll tell you a secret that a small part of the population of the Khazar Kaganate were Christians ... learn history ... there was no single religion ..
              2. +5
                29 June 2018 10: 49
                however, Poroshenko who is Waltsman and Groysman and Tymoshenko, who is Kapitelman
                the descendants of the Khazars of the Jewish faith speak for themselves there a dime a dozen
                1. 0
                  26 January 2019 18: 07
                  Quote: Graz

                  however, Poroshenko who is Waltsman and Groysman and Tymoshenko, who is Kapitelman
                  the descendants of the Khazars of the Jewish faith speak for themselves there a dime a dozen

                  Learn history. There are a lot of Jews in Poland and Ukraine because the rabbits (in Polish it is a rabbit, not a king). Pospolita's speeches urged Jews from all over Europe to come to them for permanent residence and guaranteed protection from "persecution", "for your grandmother, any whim." .. It started back in the 14th century. On this topic there is even an original decree on the conscription of Jews.
        2. +5
          29 June 2018 13: 15
          .
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Ukrainians are the polished and Russified descendants of the Khazars. No they are not Slavs.
          How do you differ in your statement from Svidomo, a descendant of the "polished" Khazars .. laughing They write that the Russians are not Slavs at all, but the descendants of the Finno-Finns and the Mongol ... Cinema! fellow Alternative history ..
          1. +7
            29 June 2018 17: 10
            You can say anything. You can even out of ignorance believe in this "anything." But when you already know that, for example, the Tatars with the Mongols do not have common ancestors until the apes (these are completely different peoples), the Finno-Ugrians have more in common with the Moldavians and Romanians than with the Tatars, and the Tatars are almost pure Slavs (op -pa!), with a slight admixture of Turkic DNA, and even then, initially along the female line.
            The topic is vast and replete with uncomfortable, even humiliating for some facts.
            1. 0
              29 June 2018 18: 51
              here you hit the point ... you can immediately see the person knows what he is writing about
          2. +2
            29 June 2018 18: 39
            How do you differ in your statement from Svidomo, a descendant of the "polished" Khazars .. laughing Those write that the Russians are not Slavs at all, but the descendants of the Finno-Finns and the Mongol
            Judging by the blue and gray-eyed eyes, as well as the fair hair and skin of Russians, they should not be considered Mongols. Maybe there is a proportion of Finno-Ugric peoples, how could it be without this, after all, Russians have mastered the land inhabited by Finno-Ugric peoples. But judging by the stinginess of the Ukrainians, their blood has a noticeable share of Turks, Crimean Tatars and Khazars.
            1. +2
              30 June 2018 18: 28
              Judging by the blue and gray-eyed eyes, as well as the fair hair and skin of Russians, they should not be considered Mongols.
              Well, how many times can I repeat: well, were not mongols conquerors from the word never. These are ordinary shepherds. And the conquerors were the Moguls (mighty, great). Only they did not conquer Russia (for the simple reason that they are already local and their homeland, Russia, they mastered, settled, and not "conquered"), but conquered the rest of the world
        3. +2
          29 June 2018 18: 47
          what are you saying ???? Aren't you ashamed to write such nonsense?
          1. -1
            29 June 2018 19: 15
            This is a scientifically proven fact. Moreover, several independent researchers. This scoop was made to sing about the "fraternity" of Ukrainians and Russians. In fact, the gap between Ukrainians and Russians is the same as between the residents of Blagoveshchensk and Heikhe.
            1. 0
              29 June 2018 21: 55
              scientifically proven fact is that Don Cossacks and some peoples of the North Caucasus have a lot of Khazar blood ... but Ukrainians are no less Slavs than Russians ... as already written above, an understanding person decides everything by analyzing a haplogroup ... do not compose fairy tales .. there is no doubt that Ukrainians have an admixture of Khazar, only it is far from dominant
              1. 0
                26 January 2019 18: 53
                Quote: aws4
                scientifically proven fact is that the Don Cossacks and some peoples of the North Caucasus have a lot of Khazar blood ...

                one dolboslav argues with another dolboslav ... It is not known for certain who the Khazars are by blood, but it has long been proven that the Turks are not blood, but language. Representatives of both whites and narrow-eyed are Turks. The very first known Turkic-speaking people - Usuns came to the Scythians and lived in the territory of modern China (the provinces of Gansu and Xinjiang, Kyrgyzstan and eastern Kazakhstan. But on the territory of their state lived many "Mongoloids" who adopted the language of the owners. Other Scythian peoples lived in the neighborhood - Yuezhi (Kushans), Sakov, Aipanov and further on the list ... At the beginning of the 5th century, the state of Usuns ceased to exist, and the Mongoloids who adopted their language began to expand their possessions, and the conquered peoples began to be called Türks, although among them there were many who were Indo-Europeans by blood.
        4. +3
          30 June 2018 22: 05
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Ukrainians are the polished and Russified descendants of the Khazars. No they are not Slavs.

          Khazar Kaganate - the interfluve of the Don and Volga.
          1. 0
            26 January 2019 18: 57
            Quote: Pollux
            Khazar Kaganate - the interfluve of the Don and Volga.
            There were also peoples who were their vassals and supplied people to the Khazar army. The principality of Kiev belonged to such territories. And the Khazars themselves in the Khazar Khaganate were no more than 20%. A person is simply not interested in figures and historical facts, but as an ass repeats after idols.
      2. 0
        29 June 2018 17: 39
        Yes, you don’t need to pour billions into the creation of Tirex - there is a clean development of one enterprise, there is a chassis, there is a gun, there are fire control systems - you just need to redo the existing building and weld a new tower.
        1. +4
          30 June 2018 05: 58
          Normally guys talked about tanks! laughing But then I know who the Ukrainians are good
          1. MPN
            +6
            30 June 2018 13: 42
            Quote: Siberia 9444
            Normally guys talked about tanks! laughing But then I know who the Ukrainians are good

            So I read ... laughing Tanks are power and a gallogroup affects it only in the fact that everything has been plundered and there is nothing to build from and where ...
        2. +3
          30 June 2018 18: 33
          soon they’ll not be ready to brew tank towers: they wouldn’t have forgotten how to cook drums (potatoes)
  2. +2
    29 June 2018 06: 41
    Ukraine is building a new tank? Kashirsky court to help them.
  3. +7
    29 June 2018 07: 33
    No need to be such skeptics. By the end of the 21st century, the tank will be. I am sure about that. Wheels from a keg in two horsepower, Maxim machine gun, but the tank will be.
  4. +5
    29 June 2018 08: 06
    Ukrainian tank building cannot give anything but high-profile media concepts ... Even a pre-production model is an unattainable dream. The limit is fuss with the T-64 ...
    1. MPN
      +4
      30 June 2018 13: 45
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      The limit is fuss with the T-64 ...

      Pre-production object 477A in their quantity of 10 pieces remained from the USSR, so they are trying to imagine something on them, but I don’t see anything new in the future. hi
  5. +1
    29 June 2018 09: 08
    At the moment, Ukraine does not have any opportunities and means even to repair old tanks. And their oligarchs are not interested in this. Rather, the DNI will establish production, since there is interest. Or maybe they meant it? belay
  6. 0
    29 June 2018 10: 43
    Probably still competent specialists remained there, but only the problems of Ukraine are not in them, it is more likely to design yes, but at the time of implementation, other collective farms will begin.
    I think it’s quite possible they’ll just sell the project to Uralvagonzavod. Amers pokatushki strangers are not needed. They need to feed their defense industry.
  7. 0
    29 June 2018 11: 39
    I think that the majority of forum users underestimate the safety margin of the plant to them. Malysheva
    1. +4
      29 June 2018 13: 43
      Quote: Calabi Yau
      I think that the majority of forum users underestimate the safety margin of the plant to them. Malysheva

      Well, light it up ... A lot of his former employees visit the site, it will be very interesting for them to read your opinion on this "reserve"
  8. +1
    29 June 2018 12: 37
    In the 90 years, we also had something to grab our heads for. Nothing, gradually got rid of. I think that Ukraine will also jump a couple of years, and then it will take the path of correction.
  9. 0
    29 June 2018 13: 30
    There is no country and a tank is an axiom. We have created a tank on paper in Russia and the boy created it.
  10. 0
    29 June 2018 13: 42
    "Tirex": the ghost of T-64
    I would be very glad if they stopped on it ... and most importantly tried to implement it. Unfortunately, with all due respect to the design genius of Morozov, but on the T-64 he laid such a "mine" that kills all the possibilities to create something more or less modern now based on the T-64. The weak point of the whole design was the lightweight chassis. Which simply does not withstand new, increased loads.
  11. +1
    29 June 2018 20: 28
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    How do you differ in your statement from Svidomo, a descendant of the "polished" Khazars .. laughing Those write that the Russians are not Slavs at all, but the descendants of the Finno-Finns and the Mongol
    Judging by the blue and gray-eyed eyes, as well as the fair hair and skin of Russians, they should not be considered Mongols. Maybe there is a proportion of Finno-Ugric peoples, how could it be without this, after all, Russians have mastered the land inhabited by Finno-Ugric peoples. But judging by the stinginess of the Ukrainians, their blood has a noticeable share of Turks, Crimean Tatars and Khazars.

    Got it ! am Therefore, my grandfather is a Ukrainian from the Zhytomyr region, a blue-eyed blond, and my second grandfather from Russia is a blue-eyed brown-haired ... True, I turned out to be a bald descendant of Muscovites and Ukrainians, though also light-eyed .. request bald, probably because the descendant of the oppressed Khazar ..or ugro-Finn ...
  12. +3
    29 June 2018 20: 30
    Frankly speaking, it seems that the author is puffing hard to convince himself that Ukraine will not be able to make a tank in any way .. All the same, the Ukrainian syndrome has a place to be. What is most surprising is that in a vast country with enormous resources and ancient history, people are amazed not by what is better than others, but by someone worse than theirs, but by scribes like Legat (megalomania is evident pushed on that pseudonym) intensively develop this tendency. But recently, back in the days of the USSR it was different.
    1. +2
      30 June 2018 22: 15
      Quote: Curious
      To be honest, it seems that the author is puffing hard to convince himself that Ukraine will not be able to make a tank in any way.

      A tank can be made by any country, only who will buy it? Demand creates supply, but not vice versa.
  13. 0
    29 June 2018 21: 41
    Quote: svp67
    Quote: Calabi Yau
    I think that the majority of forum users underestimate the safety margin of the plant to them. Malysheva

    Well, light it up ... A lot of his former employees visit the site, it will be very interesting for them to read your opinion on this "reserve"

    Well, just look at the range of manufactured armored vehicles and their performance characteristics. And also the HCB in mechanical engineering lives and lives. One can say for a long time that Ukraine is not capable of producing modern MBT, but if that were so, there would be no contracts won. Yes, not everything is rosy with them, but one should not underestimate the potential of a potential adversary ..
    To all those who brought our Union republics to the brink of war - to burn in hell forever.
  14. 0
    29 June 2018 22: 35
    Thank you for the article a very interesting review. I hope that the Ukrainians will succeed. smile
    And in the future, probably, Ukrainian specialists will consider a version of the Leopard (if there is money) to replace the T-64 Chinese VT-4 (if not)
    .
    Not so the Kytays will give. But what about gesheft ?! lol
  15. 0
    29 June 2018 23: 14
    Quote: aws4
    the ruling circles professed Judaism in Khazaria .. let it be known that most did not profess this faith and weren’t in fact Jews ... I’ll tell you a secret that a small part of the population of the Khazar Kaganate were Christians ... learn history ... there was no single religion ..

    Exactly. Only the top was the Jews. And the epics are clearly shared by Zhidovin and Kozarin.
  16. +2
    1 July 2018 16: 37
    If you evaluate this nonsense that is presented .. then you are also sick.
    There will not be and will not be more tanks in Ukraine .. as well as Ukraine itself ... they destroyed everything themselves .. and that nonsense that they present in advertising leaflets .. this is difficult to characterize. So they read, smiled and forgot.
  17. +1
    27 August 2018 20: 56
    You can want a lot of things. It’s even probably useful to want something. There is some incentive to move forward.
    But wanting and having the opportunity to implement, two big differences! As they say in one southern city. hi

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