Conquistadors against Aztec (part of 3)

63
For fights in narrow aisles
This day was not enough
European science,
Guns, horses and armor.
Heinrich Heine. "Vitsliputsli". Translation by N. Gumilev


Offensive weapons



The main armament of the conquistadors were traditional swords, spears, crossbows, arquebuses and muskets with wick locks, as well as small-caliber light guns. On the medieval no longer resembled. The blade had a length of about 90 cm, a handle with a simple crosshair and figured topping. Most of the swords had double-edged blades, but a blunt edge — so that it would not get stuck in the mail of the enemy when struck. At the same time, in the 16th century, new technologies for hardening steel, including those borrowed from the Moors by the Spaniards, allowed the Toldi gunsmiths to begin making rapiers - weapons with a narrower blade, which was more light and sharp, but which was losing to old samples in terms of strength and elasticity. The edge of the rapier, on the contrary, was very sharp, which made it possible to hit the enemy in the gap between the joints of the armor and even pierce mail. The handle received a twisted guard freakish outlines. However, they served just not so much for decoration, as in order to enable the skilled swordsman to “catch” the enemy's blade and thereby either disarm him or ... kill the disarmed. The rapier was longer than the sword, so it was worn on a shoulder strap over the right shoulder, the ends of which at the left thigh were attached to the sheath so that it would hang obliquely. At the same time, the left hand could easily take hold of her scabbard, and the right hand could hold the handle and thus expose the weapon in a flash.

Conquistadors against Aztec (part of 3)

Cristobal de Olid at the head of Spanish soldiers and Tlaxcalans attacks Jalisco, 1522 (“History Tlashkaly ", Glasgow University Library)

The technique of owning such a rapier was as follows: a man stood frontally to the enemy and in his right hand he held a rapier, and in the left - a parrying dagger - dag. The blows were inflicted both by stabbing and chopping. The fencers sought to catch the blade of the enemy with special projections on the Dag (sometimes it had a specially moving blade!) And hit it with the guard of its own rapier on it.


Spanish or Italian rapier and dagger for left hand, approx. 1650 d. The length of the blade of the sword 108.5, see. (The Art Institute of Chicago)


Rapier for a boy, approx. 1590 - 1600 Length 75.5 cm. Blade length 64 cm. Weight 368 g.


The sword is probably Italian, 1520 -1530's. Total length 100.5 cm. Length 85 cm. Weight 1248 g. (Chicago Institute of Art)

However, broad swords continued to be used, and the conquistadors should have them. The two-handed version of such a sword had a blade length around 168. See, at first, these swords were used to cut through the peaks of the Swiss infantry. But it is not difficult to assume that such swords were supposed to produce real havoc in the dense masses of lightly armed Indian soldiers, who had no plate armor. They had conquistadors and halberds, and 3,5 and cavalry spears with which riders could strike infantrymen from a distance. And, of course, the Spanish infantry used the spears and spikes to create a “hedgehog” - a defensive system covering the crossbowmen and arquebusiers during the time they reloaded their weapons.


German sword from Munich, work of Melchior Difstetter, 1520 -1556 Weight 1219 (Chicago Institute of Art)


In principle, all of these conquistadors could be armed. Well, if they do not, then people of their time. (Dresden Armory)

Although crossbows were known in the III. AD, as reported by us, for example, the poem of Firdousi "Shahname", they were not very powerful and were used mainly for hunting. Only over time, medieval gunsmiths learned to make crossbow bows from different hardwoods, horns and bones, but in this case it was too hard to pull the bow too powerful. At first, the stirrup helped to ease the loading - a leg was inserted into it and the crossbow was pressed to the ground, while pulling the string with a hook and cocking the trigger at the same time. Then a “goat’s foot” lever appeared, and during the Hundred Years' War, a powerful gate with a polyspast. K XIV century. The crossbow has become an indispensable weapon of all European armies, no matter how the Pope himself curses him. His twelve-inch bolt (approx. 31 cm) could easily pierce steel armor at close range. By the beginning of the expedition of Cortez, on many crossbows they began to make a metal bow, which made the crossbow even more powerful. And already when the so-called “Nuremberg knob” appeared - a removable gate for tensioning the crossbow, it became absolutely good. Now the crossbow could charge the rider in the saddle, and the crossbow itself, even if with this rather complicated mechanism, was still a lot simpler than the arquebus that competed with it throughout the XV century. In the tropics of the Caribbean islands, Mexico and Central America, the crossbow was convenient because it did not need powder, which at that time looked like a powder (they could not granulate it) and easily dampened. In addition, the killing power of a crossbow at close range made it possible for two, and possibly three people, to be pierced with one arrow, so that the crossbow was not much different from the arquebus in terms of the effect on the dense construction of the Indians.


“Kranekin” (“Nuremberg Gate”), Dresden, 1570 - 1580 (Chicago Art Institute)

By 1450, the prospect of meeting a peasant armed with something that fired smoke, fire, thunder and a lead ball could frighten any nobleman wearing the most expensive armor. No wonder the Knight Bayard ordered the arrows to be cut off from the firearm. Everyone already knew that lead is poisonous, and therefore infections and gangrene caused by injuries by such bullets were attributed to its nasty properties, and not to banal dirt and unsanitary conditions reigning everywhere. But in order to prevent this from happening, healers burned wounds caused by lead, red-hot iron, or disinfected them with boiling olive oil - a completely barbaric method of treatment that only increased the hatred of knights for gunners. Fortunately, aiming and shooting at first was quite difficult at first, but after the wick lock appeared in 1490, the situation quickly changed.


It would be very interesting to consider it proved that Cortez was wearing armor like this. And he really wore them. But the question is: which ones? Maybe it was Milanese armor, like this field headset and at the same time tournament armor for a fight with a barrier? OK. 1575 d. Height 96.5 cm. Weight 18,580 (Chicago Institute of Art)

The first wick guns had an S-shaped lever planted on the rod, called “serpentine” (serpentine), in which a smoldering hemp wick was attached. To shoot it was necessary to push the lower part of the lever forward, then the upper part, on the contrary, moved back and brought the smoldering wick to the pilot hole. And immediately there were many different options for the trigger mechanism, including the very very original push-button descent.

During the XVI century. The trigger lever has become very similar to that used in modern firearms - that is, it turned the serpentine with a spring-loaded trigger. Then the triggers became smaller and attached a safety bracket to them against accidental pressing. They were fired with round bullets cast from lead, but not only. It is known, for example, that in Russia at that time food was squeezed and muskets could be charged “with seven cuts for three grivenki” and ... how could this be understood? But it's very simple - the bullets were not poured, but were cut from a pre-cast calibrated rod and laid as many as seven “cuts”, that is, bullets weighing three grivnas. Applied a similar method of loading conquistadors or not unknown. But why not, the technique is very rational. After all, the Spaniards, in contrast to the warriors in Europe, needed to shoot not at individual horsemen in armor, but for the dense mass of the advancing Indians, who were trying to crush them with their numbers and not so much kill them, as they would certainly take into captivity and sacrifice to their blood-bearing gods. Therefore, it is logical to assume that in the barrel they laid, if not cylindrical chopped bullets, then in any case, several bullets at once. Scattering when fired to the side, at a relatively close distance, they killed several Indians at once or inflicted injuries incompatible with life. Only in this way could they stop their desperate attacks. After all, it is known that the same Aztecs did not suffer from a lack of courage!


It is possible that in the battle of Otumba it was just like this that the armed horsemen decided the outcome of the battle. But this is nothing more than an assumption. Austrian armor from Innsbruck, approx. 1540 d. Height 191,8 cm. Weight. 14,528 kg. (Chicago Art Institute)

By the way, prior to the standardization of the Spanish arms production, carried out under Charles V, handguns had many different names. The most common was the name of espingard (pishchal), arquebus (in Spanish arcabuz) and escopet. The commander, who managed to understand the advantage of numerous shooters with arquebuses and find them a place on the battlefield, became the famous Cordoba. After all, it was only with the help of firearms that it was possible to break through the square constructions of Swiss pikemen, who were also dressed in metal armor. But now a large detachment of Spanish arquebuisers could, from a safe distance of 150 yards (approx. 130 m), disperse their first rows in one gulp, after which the soldiers with shields and swords cut into their frustrated masses and completed the fight in hand-to-hand combat.


Iron cannon charging from the breech, approx. 1410 (Paris Army Museum)

As for the documentary mentions of weapons supplied to America, the first of them is in Columbus’s request for 200 breast cuirass, 100 arquebus and 100 crossbows made by him in 1495. It was a weapon for a detachment of 200 soldiers, and it can be seen that the arquebuses and crossbows in the New World were equally used, and in addition, all these warriors had cuirass. But they did not need long peaks at all, since the Indians had no cavalry. They fought with large dense masses consisting of lightly armed infantry, and the conquistadors had the most fear that they would simply crush their ranks before they could use their advantage in armament. The descriptions of the battles with the Indians, made by Cortes, Díaz, Alvarado and other conquistadors, clearly show us what efforts the Spaniards had to keep the enemy hordes from themselves at a distance. At the same time, the Arquebusiers with their shots inflicted enormous damage on them, but it was a long matter to charge these weapons. Cover for arkebuziram at this time just provide crossbowmen, who charged their crossbows a lot faster. Swordsmen also fought with those who broke through the fire and those and others, and appeared directly in front of the Spaniards. When the first onslaught of the enemy weakened, the Spaniards immediately launched their artillery, the volleys of which could hold the Indians at a great distance almost infinitely.


The Spaniards and their allies are fighting the Aztecs. (“The History of Tlaxcala”, Glasgow University Library)

As for the artillery, the conquistadors had at their disposal two or three inch guns, which were called falconets. In general, these were ship cannons, discharged from the breech and placed on the sides for firing at the enemy, going to board the ship, but the conquistadors quickly came up with the idea of ​​removing them from the ships and putting them on the wheel carriages. At a distance of 2000 yards (approx. 1800 m), they would kill five or more people at once with a well-aimed core. The sound of the shot almost always caused the superstitious horror of the natives, because in their view he was associated with such supernatural phenomena as thunder, lightning and a volcanic eruption.

During the capture of Mexico City, the Spaniards used heavier guns. Scientists are still arguing about what sizes and caliber these culevrin and pawnshops had. For example, Cortes in Veracruz in 1519 had four falcontes and ten bronze pawnshops. The Spaniards falcontes later lost in the "Night of Sorrows". The pawnbrokers turned out to be too heavy for maneuvers on the battlefield and were used only for the defense of the coastal fortress of Cortes Villa Rica. But then they were able to manufacture suitable vehicles for them and deliver them to Tenochtitlan, where they were used in 1521.

To be continued ...
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63 comments
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  1. +5
    2 July 2018 06: 08
    Thank you very interesting, we look forward to continuing
  2. +6
    2 July 2018 07: 47
    Against scrap no reception
    Falconet and bombardment - the know-how of the era, and weapons made history
    Thank you
    Interesting details
    1. Cat
      +3
      2 July 2018 20: 38
      Quote: Adjutant
      Against scrap no reception
      Falconet and bombardment - the know-how of the era, and weapons made history
      Thank you
      Interesting details

      Falconet - yes! There is definitely no bombardment! The author does not just mention that Cortes had bronze pawn shops, not bombers. If 8 pound pawnshops were heavy, what to say about the bombers who fired marble cores from 30 to 80 cm in diameter.
      Even the Turks preferred to pour their guns in place.
  3. +4
    2 July 2018 11: 09
    How to say, boundless numerical superiority gave the Aztecs all chances to win, but .... it didn’t grow! (besides military-technical issues, there are a lot of mystical coincidences there, they usually don’t talk about it, but they are, because the Cortes army accidentally landed in the year Quetzalcoatl returned, and this is one of 52 years, etc. ....)
    1. 0
      2 July 2018 23: 59
      Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
      they don’t usually talk about it, but they do, so the Cortes army landed quite by accident in the year Quetzalcoatl returned, and this is one of 52 years, etc ....

      What about the Incas? They didn’t have this kind of belief, but you must have - one battle at Kahamarq was worth it!
  4. +5
    2 July 2018 11: 12
    "Then, in the XNUMXth century, new steel hardening technologies, including those borrowed by the Spaniards from the Moors, allowed the Toledo gunsmiths to begin manufacturing rapiers - weapons with a narrower blade, which was lighter and sharper, but which was inferior to the old models in strength "The edge of the rapier, on the contrary, was sharpened, which made it possible to hit the enemy in the gap between the joints of armor and even to pierce chain mail."
    You, Vyacheslav Olegovich, describe the appearance of a sword. And bring the fencing technique for a lightweight, civilian version of the epee - rapiers, espadas roperas, "sword for court clothes". Naturally, no one fenced in battle. So fencing in a duel, without armor.
    1. Cat
      +8
      2 July 2018 20: 16
      As far as I know, in the time of Cortes, the Spanish style of combat was adopted. They turned to the enemy with their left side with a dredge, stylet, dagger or shield, in the right espadu or a Spanish sword. Later, a more progressive French was adopted when they turned to the enemy with their right side. By the way, in fektovanii the latter still exists.
      Frontal Roman or still the so-called civilian (civilian) position of the battle in the phalanx, which died and was resurrected more than once and without giving. The last "re-artist" of this position for the battle was in the birth of the Spanish thirds and the Swiss fights!
      Sincerely, Kitty!
      1. +1
        3 July 2018 13: 02
        Quote: Kotischa
        The last "recontactist" of this position for the battle was in the birth of Spanish third and Swedish battles!

        To some extent, the same "reconquista" tactics can be considered infantry squares in the XIX century.
        Quote: Kotischa
        As far as I know, during the time of Cortez, the Spanish style of combat was adopted.

        It is necessary to distinguish duel fencing from combat. It's like boxing and street fighting. Dueling fencing - courtly, requiring elegant manners and no less elegant weapons, such as rapier and dag. They even with the fatal defeat of the enemy left small holes, so that the deceased in the coffin was as beautiful as during his life. smile A field battle is a rough male fight that requires strength, endurance, and anger. To her and the weapon required appropriate - heavy, reliable, strong and simple. Rapier does not fit. smile
  5. +5
    2 July 2018 11: 47
    Quote: Curious
    Naturally, no one fenced in battle.

    And in the battle no one fenced at all, they shouted and chopped off! And even more so, the Indians did not wear armor to poke them in the joints! And none of Cortez’s associates described the technique. It is written chopped and pricked with our swords and all. And how chopped and how pricked ... no one bothered. Then everyone knew that already.
    1. +4
      2 July 2018 13: 38
      "But in the battle no one fenced at all, they shouted and chopped off there!"
      This is if you swing the shafts. then yes. And if you have cold steel in your hands, any, and you are trained to own it, then you are fencing, if you are not trained. you talk with the apostle Peter.
      And one more thing, about a new way of hardening. By the sixteenth century, Toledo blacksmiths with their blades really came out “in first place”, but not thanks to the new hardening method, but thanks to the manufacturing technology of these blades - alma de hierro - “the soul of iron”. And the doctrine of heat treatment of steel did not yet appear, therefore, quenching was a kind of shamanism. As early as the XNUMXth century, a method for heat treatment of steel arose in the Ural ironworks, which was called “quenching” with “cattle horn with salt”, which made it possible to obtain metal of very high quality, although it was not hardening at all, but nitriding.
      The scientific basis began to be brought under this process by Dmitry Konstantinovich Chernov in 1868.
      So you disorient the public.
      1. +1
        2 July 2018 15: 10
        And Amosov as damask restored?
        1. +3
          2 July 2018 17: 54
          Anosov restored damask empirically. He described this process very well in his article "On Bulat". In short, I got steel of a given composition.
          Chernov, on the other hand, came up with a scientific understanding of the internal structural transformations in cooling steel that occur at certain temperatures. which he called critical points, i.e. made the first discoveries, which subsequently turned heat treatment from art to science.
          1. Cat
            +4
            2 July 2018 20: 25
            I will supplement Victor Nikolaevich. Knives hardened by the blood of bulls, had gloomy glory. Sometimes they were called "horned" - from hell. The clergy frantically fought against this paganism, but every November, with the first cold, a couple of cows were still killed for the sake of the ambitions of the owners.
            To be honest, I only heard from the old people about horned knives, I don’t know about hardening in the blood and salt of long-blade weapons.
            Sincerely, Kitty!
            1. +2
              2 July 2018 20: 45
              Are they really tempered?
              1. +5
                2 July 2018 21: 18
                If you mean blood - why not? After all, there was an intuitive search for results by trial and error.
                XNUMXth-century German recipe: “They take a three-year-old ram, bind it and don’t feed it for three days. On the fourth day it is fed only with fern. After two days of such feeding, it is placed the next night in a barrel with holes punched below. A vessel is placed under these holes "in which the urine of a sheep is collected. The sheep urine collected in two or three nights in such a way is removed and the instrument is quenched in the indicated urine."
                This recipe speaks about the observation of its author: urine and other solutions of salts quickly absorb heat from a hot metal than the coldest water, which contributes to the corresponding phase transformations. Accidentally noticing this feature of liquids containing salts, medieval metallurgists willingly developed variations on this subject. And blood is also a saline solution.
                1. +1
                  3 July 2018 10: 10
                  Quote: Curious
                  This recipe speaks about the observation of its author: urine and other solutions of salts quickly absorb heat from a hot metal than the coldest water, which contributes to the corresponding phase transformations.

                  I’ll add my 5 kopecks: the concentration of salts in sheep’s urine is three times higher than in human. The second important advantage of urine is the presence of urea: during quenching, nitriding occurs (the nitrogen layer is very thin, some microns - but the compressive stresses arising in it sharply reduce the risk of cracks: a few other methods are used today, but similar ones). Fern is very rich in protein, and such a diet markedly increased the urea content in the urine - it is simply amazing, as in ancient times before such a recipe good come on!
                  And blood is useless to pour: it has a lot of protein in it - it immediately curls up, forming a lump on the blade, and no hardening occurs (by the way, the English-Saxon word harten, used in Beowulf, meant hardening, cementation, and nitrocarburizing , and hardening - and stiffness / cruelty in general - that is, even a purely poetic translation of "a blade hardened with blood" is possible - well, in the original the word "blood" is indicated by kenning "sweat of battle" - these are obviously not bullish, but about human blood! And captain Ahab was in life, because a harpoon hardened in human blood didn’t help him!
                  1. 0
                    4 July 2018 08: 06
                    Legends have also been preserved, they say some medieval and ancient barbarian peoples tempered swords in the bodies of living slaves. The horror is simple.
              2. Cat
                +4
                2 July 2018 21: 46
                Anton, I don’t know! In metallurgy, this process is called metal nitriding. According to the old people, not the whole knife was tempered, but only its edge of the blade.
                As far as I know in the east, a method was used to temper a sword by immersing it in the body of a strong slave.
                There is another way to improve the quality of the metal. For example, the Lithuanian was left to rust on a mowing ground. Next year, the rye was grinded, the cutting edge was beaten off in a “hot” and heated. And so for several years in a row. In the third fifth year, the edge was beaten in the cold. Demolition of such braids was not. At first glance, light, airy. But they demanded a rarer sharpening.
                Craftsmen still upset the butt of the Kosovos without touching the edge of the blade, but this is the flight of the highest category of the master. Like the Lithuanian cast-damask Lithuanians. True or not, they mowed grass like "air", but they did not live longer than two or three seasons. Rye killed them in years.
            2. +4
              3 July 2018 00: 13
              Quote: Kotischa
              Knives hardened by the blood of bulls, had gloomy glory.

              In the blood (with the addition of salt), you can only cyanate the blade (for several hours with dark red heat), and hardening in the blood completely sucks, the wedge simply does not harden from the word at all - believe the professional! Blood will clot instantly, forming a clot on the clique, which will prevent the metal from cooling effectively!
          2. +2
            3 July 2018 00: 17
            Quote: Curious
            In short, I got steel of a given composition.

            Damask steel - first of all, not composition, but structure! In terms of composition, it can even be cast iron (so-called cast iron with an inverted structure, or ledeburite steel)!
            1. +1
              3 July 2018 01: 17
              Konstantin, you have good comments, but it seems to me that they would have been even better if not for some haste. Read my comment again. It is written not about the fact that the properties of damask steel are determined primarily by the chemical composition, but about the achievements in the metallurgy of Anosov and Chernov.
              By the way, if we are talking about the structure and composition, the primary crystallization of steel, which determines its structure, depends on the carbon content, i.e. chemical composition essentially. In his article “On Bulat”, Anosov approaches the understanding of this process.
              1. +1
                3 July 2018 09: 52
                Quote: Curious
                Read my comment again. It is written not about the fact that the properties of damask steel are determined primarily by the chemical composition, but about the achievements in the metallurgy of Anosov and Chernov.

                read it carefully enough. Just in your comment on the achievements in the metallurgy of Anosov and Chernov. Basically everything is on the case hi - therefore, I did not comment on these issues.
            2. 0
              4 July 2018 08: 08
              But damask steel is incredibly strong and flexible, and cast iron is incredibly strong and fragile.
              1. +1
                4 July 2018 17: 24
                Quote: Hastatus
                But damask steel is incredibly strong and flexible, and cast iron is incredibly strong and fragile.

                Because of the so-called inverted structure. But about the "incredible" fortress of Damascus steel - PR steers laughing Biruni 1000 years ago wrote about the advantage of welding Damascus over Damascus steel: "The Rus made their swords from Shapurkan (high-carbon immaculate steel), and the dales in the middle of them are from the narmahana (Persian "soft iron" - the treatise is translated from Arabic, and the Persian-language terms are left without translation) to give them strength upon impact, to prevent their fragility. Fuladz cannot stand the cold of their winters and breaks when hit. When they got acquainted with farand (a damask pattern), they invented for weaving long wire (made) of both varieties of iron - shapurkan and female (= narmahana). And they began to get them on welded weaves when immersed (in the etchant) things are amazing and rare, such as they wanted and intended to get. Farand, however, does not work out according to the intention in manufacturing and does not come at will, but it is random. "The main advantage of damask steel is sharpness, but it is either soft or fragile. During the Union of Pirinei (1580-1640), the Spaniards actively traded with the East - so here Toledo and Genoese swords in India were snapped up (by the way, in Hindi, steel is called ispat, and 100 years ago it was a synonym - tolad)! And the Spaniards bought bullion bullion and drove them to sell ... to Japan (where the damask steel was called "namban-tetsu = iron of the southern barbarians"). And here Indian Damask Talvars and Japanese Katan Spaniards for some reason did not bring Europe - A. Mazin did not enlighten them in a timely manner, that European steel sucks in comparison with damask steel laughing
                1. 0
                  4 July 2018 20: 29
                  Lol, is that Mazin who is a fantastic alternative?))

                  Biruni, it turns out, indicates a high level of metallurgy in ancient Russia? And that opinion was popular, they say there wasn’t; all the blades imported and bargained from abroad.

                  Katana in general is simply outrageously overestimated - in fact, just a saber with a two-handed handle (and the blade is like a checker), which was endowed with exactly the same properties.

                  The Toledo blades of the Indians were snapped up because of their excellent properties, otherwise the hype was incomprehensible, because the Indians preferred very curved, cutting sabers, which later terrified the British, with their "butcher" properties.
                  1. 0
                    4 July 2018 21: 33
                    Quote: Hastatus
                    Lol, is that Mazin who is a fantastic alternative?))

                    Yeah, that one. A. Mazin “Varyag”, afterword to the 1st part of the trilogy: “Arab weapons ... the quality of the metal was also different from the weapons that the Franks or Scandinavians forged, like a blade of a real Swiss knife from a piece of roofing sheet.” That’s just why -Kindy wrote in the 9th century that 1000 dinars were paid for the Frankish sword in the East (4,25 kg of gold = i.e. appreciated not worth its weight in gold, but three times more expensive!), and of Asian products, only Yemeni damask steel was equally expensive (interestingly, Indian was cheaper!) laughing
                    1. 0
                      5 July 2018 10: 11
                      Moreover, it should be borne in mind that the "Frankish" arms metallurgy, this is direct then Roman, where there were entire state arms factories, which means that naturally the Frankish level will be much higher.

                      It is even more interesting that even in the era of the united Late Roman Empire, it was strictly forbidden, then, in the Persian East, to export elements of weapons — swords, steel and components. After the death of the Western Roman Empire, the Eastern Byzantium maintained the same policy - it was not for nothing that the Persians repeatedly tried to destroy the Byzantine border fortress of Daru, where trade with the East was monopolistic.

                      And soon created the Arab Caliphate, which widely borrowed the latest military technology, the source of borrowing was mainly the former Sassanian Persia, where the level was lower than Byzantine / Roman.
                      1. +1
                        5 July 2018 13: 14
                        Quote: Hastatus
                        Even in the era of the united Late Roman Empire, it was strictly forbidden, then, in the Persian East, to export elements of weapons - swords, steel and components.

                        And Charlemagne has repeatedly issued formidable edicts banning the sale of weapons to both Muslims and Gentiles (Wends and Scandinavians). Little helped: 80% of the finds of Carolingian swords were from Scandinavia. By the way, the Scandinavians did not mint their coins, and Arab dinars were often used: so, in the sagas it is mentioned that 1000 dinars were paid for the French sword - the same amount is voiced by al-Kindi. It seems that all smugglers had a single pricing system laughing When it comes to such a megabable, no edicts will help ...
                        Quote: Hastatus
                        former Sassanian Persia, where the level was lower than Byzantine / Roman.

                        No, their level was hoo, to recall at least the impenetrable armor of cataphracts made of Margian steel mentioned by Plutarch is a question in the organization of production. This is how to compare the T-34 and the Tiger: The Tiger, of course, is much cooler, but the Germans riveted them 30 times less than we T-34. Elite blades in the East were excellent, but consumer goods completely sucked. And in Byzantium it was consumer goods of very good quality!
                  2. 0
                    4 July 2018 21: 44
                    Quote: Hastatus
                    the Indians preferred very crooked, cutting sabers, which later terrified the British, with their "butcher" properties.

                    As I already wrote - damask steel is either soft or fragile. The sharpest blades cut through a silk shawl (silk is 5-6 times thinner than a human hair), but it was softer than a table knife - a bone and bronze were chopped, and some tin was gone. The Toledo sword only chopped human hair - but it pierced chain mail at times! And the English saber also easily chopped an iron helmet - but because of stupidity, it could not cut through not only flexible chain mail, but even the Russian overcoat! In India, concrete boys wore chain mail - and the Toledo swords were very popular. But the British did not wear chain mail, so that against them the damask steered at full height! laughing
                    1. 0
                      5 July 2018 10: 13
                      It turns out damask steel looks like a dangerous razor - very sharp, but relatively soft and constantly in need of straightening the edge on the belt? By the way, how was damask steel sharpened, weren't it on the belts, in the end they ruled?
                      1. 0
                        5 July 2018 13: 04
                        Razors of different hardness are. According to Anosov, in the East, bulati were usually ground with a file - this is slower than on stone, but it gives a hardening; I would not be surprised if they were even beaten off before sharpening, like a scythe. And most likely they ruled it with a donkey, and hardly with a belt, the razor has a completely different profile. Some sources write that they were generally polished with a finger - but I suspect it looked like this from the outside (given that the Japanese katana are polished with tiny “finger stones” with a coin size - they simply cannot be seen from under the finger!).
                        By the way, Anosov was fundamentally wrong when he believed that “A razor made of good damask steel, made without errors, will pick out at least twice as many beards as the best English, assuming that both of them, being sharp, will not be corrected for shaving strap. "
                        One of the main advantages of damask steel is its “micropila”, which is good for a knife and a saber, but not for a razor or an ax: try shaving or even sharpen a pencil with a serrated knife! laughing
      2. 0
        2 July 2018 22: 01
        I agree one hundred percent. Fencing is not the contact of iron with iron, but the possession of one's own body. And do not care where this happens, in a general dump or duel. The result is one. Or are you alive or are you forgotten
      3. +1
        3 July 2018 00: 08
        Quote: Curious
        By the sixteenth century, Toledo blacksmiths with their blades really came out “in first place”, but not only thanks to the new method of hardening, but thanks to the manufacturing technology of these blades - alma de hierro - “the soul of iron”.

        Toledo blades were famous for a couple of centuries before the birth of Christ!
        Quote: Curious
        As early as the XNUMXth century, a method of heat treatment of steel arose in the Ural ironworks, which was called “quenching” with “cattle horn with salt,” which made it possible to obtain metal of very high quality, although it was not quenching at all, but nitriding.

        More precisely, sulfocyanation. And they invented it centuries earlier 26-27 ("in the body of a fat Nubian"); By the way, the method of Mime (to grind into powder and mix geese with food) made it possible to combine cyanidation with deep cleaning of sulfur!
        1. +2
          3 July 2018 01: 40
          "Toledo blades were famous for a couple of centuries before the birth of Christ"
          The fact that the village of Toletum became the center of metallurgy almost from the moment it appeared in the XNUMXnd century BC is well known. But the article considers a slightly different time period and question, and comment refers to them.
          On the issue of sulfocyanination - it needs cyanides. In the horns they are not. Or "salt" should be understood as yellow blood salt?
          1. +2
            3 July 2018 06: 32
            All participants - many thanks for clarifying the question!
            1. +1
              3 July 2018 11: 46
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              All participants - many thanks for clarifying the question!

              Join and support! smile
          2. +1
            3 July 2018 10: 00
            Quote: Curious
            On the issue of sulfocyanination - it needs cyanides. In the horns they are not. Or "salt" should be understood as yellow blood salt?

            Cyanides are formed by heating any high-protein substances with salt (preferably with soda and potash). Yellow blood salt was obtained not only from blood, but also from horns, hooves, etc. (The technology is described in sufficient detail at Brockhaus and Efron). The more sulfur in the protein, the harder it is - in the skin less than 1%, in the hair, horns and hooves - up to 5%. This chip was cut already in antiquity - carbonized skin was used for volume saturation of carbon and nitrogen, and horn was used for surface saturation (sulfocyanated steel has a lower coefficient of friction and the risk of "setting", which is important for a sword and ax when cutting armor)
            .
          3. +1
            3 July 2018 10: 16
            Quote: Curious
            But the article considers a slightly different time period and question, and comment refers to them.

            Just the idea that the Toledo masters learned something from the Arabs was first voiced by Behheim for the first time - and since then it has been often and uncritically quoted. It’s just that damask steel was too popular at one time - in fact, Toledo and Genoese steel are no worse, and the Solingen steel is not much inferior to them!
            1. +2
              3 July 2018 10: 23
              In general, there are extremely few materials on the site on these issues. But the topic is very interesting. But about the superethnos every day.
        2. +1
          4 July 2018 08: 09
          "before Christ" - do you mean the Spanish smoothness borrowed by the Roman legionnaires?
          1. +1
            4 July 2018 17: 26
            Quote: Hastatus
            Do you mean the Spanish smoothies borrowed by the Roman legionnaires?

            Of course, about them! drinks
  6. +2
    2 July 2018 12: 39
    allowed the Toledo gunsmiths to begin manufacturing rapiers - weapons with a narrower blade, which was lighter and sharper, but which lost to the old models in strength and elasticity. The rapier tip

    I have a discord that is cognitive? wassat
    1. 0
      3 July 2018 10: 25
      Quote: Yarik
      I have a discord that is cognitive?

      Apparently, the source was some kind of popular Western article from the years 70-80s.
  7. +3
    2 July 2018 14: 58
    A very interesting time is the conquest of Central America, it is strange why Hollywood did not take anything off?
    Apocalypse Mel Gibson's masterpiece.
    1. +4
      2 July 2018 20: 03
      The WASP paradigm does not allow to make a similar film.
      1. +1
        4 July 2018 08: 19
        Rather, the deconstruction of this paradigm reason is that Conquista of Mesoamerica is a triumph of white Christian male conquerors, such a Catholic Uber-WASP, that it is simply a slap in the face for the dominant SJW ideologists.
  8. +6
    2 July 2018 15: 54
    Clash of 2 worlds, different military systems and philosophies.
    I look forward to continuing!
    1. +1
      2 July 2018 21: 24
      A little later the third system intervened and it still rules.
  9. 0
    2 July 2018 23: 57
    Then, in the XVI century., New steel hardening technologies, including those borrowed by the Spaniards from the Moors, allowed the Toledo gunsmiths to begin manufacturing rapiers - weapons with a narrower blade, which was lighter and sharper, but which lost to the old models in strength and elasticity.
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, in the XVI century. new manufacturing techniques (the "Brescia method") and hardening ("berotinization") began to make armor, against which the chopping sword became useless! And the methods of hardening the blades of Toledo (then “Toletum”) were famous even in the ancient Roman era - long before the Arab invasion! Moreover: the Romans would not have been able to defeat the Macedonians if by that time they had not crushed Spain and armed themselves with Toledo swords, cutting down Macedonian shields and helmets!
    1. 0
      3 July 2018 00: 09
      Quote: Weyland
      Moreover: the Romans would not have been able to defeat the Macedonians if by that time they had not crushed Spain and armed themselves with Toledo swords, cutting down Macedonian shields and helmets!

      Hmm, it’s strange like that, I’ve read about the Macedonian Wars of Rome, that on the contrary, the Macedonian “Mahayrs” were a horror for the Roman infantry, not to mention the cavalry, but the Gladius did not make such an impression on the Macedonians ...

      In general, the issue of hardening iron and steel production is a complex topic, especially difficult for the period of ancient centuries, because few descriptions and artifacts have survived ...
      1. Cat
        +2
        3 July 2018 04: 44
        Rome and Macedonia opposed each other two completely different military tactical structures: the legion and the Macedonian phalanx. I do not think that the fundamental difference was the armament of the Roman legionnaires with hardened super gladiuses or just gladiuses. The Macedonian military leaders lost all their battles either due to geographical (river, ravine along the phalanx) or political reasons. Objectively, the legion turned out to be more mobile and tactically flexible than the phalanx. By the way, if Rome emphasized cavalry, for example, the result would be exactly the opposite. But the legions have for centuries honed their art against the Greeks and become what they have become.
        1. +1
          3 July 2018 10: 43
          Quote: Kotischa
          The Macedonian military leaders lost all their battles either due to geographical (river, ravine along the phalanx) or political reasons.

          rather economic: the phalanx is “cheap”, and only 25% of veterans are enough for 75% of newcomers (out of 16 ranks, veterans are 3 front rows plus the last to prevent cowards from rushing off laughing ), and armored cavalry is much more expensive! Alexndr worked on the principle of "hammer and anvil" - the guetaira went around the adversary and pressed him to the phalanx, which could simply stand still - and the crossed woman did not care. And Perseus of Macedonia practically didn’t use cavalry under Pidna, but stupidly attacked with a phalanx across the intersection!
      2. 0
        3 July 2018 10: 33
        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
        the gladiads didn’t make such an impression on the Macedonians ...

        gladiuses - yes. The impression was made by the shortened Spanish mahirs, who in the XNUMXth century began to call “falkata” for some reason.
        1. 0
          3 July 2018 17: 40
          Quote: Weyland
          . The impression was made by the shortened Spanish mahirs, who in the 19th century began to call “falkata” for some reason.

          Which, as I wrote above, were also in service with the Macedonians ... See how the circle of historical knowledge is closed in the absence of reliable mass sources?
          1. 0
            4 July 2018 09: 50
            Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
            Which, as I wrote above, were also in service with the Macedonians

            exactly spanish? And where did their Macedonians fuck up? The Macedonians were armed with good Mahayrs. Thracian work (the tribe of diy, who lived in the Rhodopes, was especially famous for them). Perhaps they were slightly inferior in quality to the Spanish Mahairam, but ... since the time of Xenophon, Mahaira has been a horseman’s weapon, and the infantry used xyphos (direct swords). And Perseus under Pidna generally practically didn’t use his hetairas in the battle - but the Romans his cavalry. armed with Spanish mahirs, used very effectively - below Hastatus (Ildar) hi provides a link to the source.
      3. 0
        4 July 2018 08: 35
        Just Roman (Spanish) gladiuses made a monstrous impression on the Macedonians:

        “Philip (the Macedonian king Philip V) paid special attention to the funeral of the people who fell in the first skirmish with the Roman cavalry, and ordered their bodies to be brought to the camp ... The sight of the funeral was to awaken the soldiers' ardor and readiness not to spare their lives, but instead filled with their fear and despondency. Until now, they only had to see wounds from darts or arrows, occasionally from the peak, and they were used to fighting only with the Greeks and Illyrians; now, having seen bodies mutilated by Spanish swords, hands cut off with one blow along with his shoulder, severed heads, tumbled out guts and much more, equally terrible and disgusting, Philip’s warriors were horrified by what kind of people and against what weapons they would have to deal with . ”
        1. +1
          4 July 2018 09: 35
          Quote: Hastatus
          Just Roman (Spanish) gladiuses made a monstrous impression on the Macedonians:

          Thanks for the help, Ildar, I tried to google this passage - and did not find it! Only in the original, EMNIP, in the phrase
          Quote: Hastatus
          Spanish swords
          it doesn’t say “gladiuses” - the word ensis is used there, which has a more general character (chopping sword of any shape - both straight and curved). Especially talking about
          Quote: Hastatus
          skirmish with roman cavalry
          and gladius is a purely infantry weapon!
          1. +1
            4 July 2018 20: 45
            The fact is that the Roman infantry surface went through a significant evolution, and the armourers - archaeologists divide it into several types, in fact: "Spanish" - the surface of the times of the Middle and Late Republic, "Mainz" - the early principle of the German wars of August and Tiberius, "Fulham "- the smooth surface of the times of Claudius and the conquest of Britain and" Pompeii "- the classic smooth surface of the times of Flavius, Trajan and the golden age of the Antonins.

            So, all smoothings, with the exception of the original Spanish one, are much shorter, if the Spanish smooth surface could be 85 cm, then Pompey 50-60 cm. Moreover, the Spanish smooth surface, like the falcata, has a curvature, only in the middle, of the petal type.

            Therefore, the republican “Spanish” smooth surface is more versatile than the subsequent imperial ones; it could not only chop perfectly, but also chop perfectly, and due to the petal curvature of the blade and inflict terrible wounds, as Titus Livy reports. Yes, and the Roman legionnaire of the era of the Middle Republic, relatively imperial principled, is "armored" very easily - only a shield, helmet, and bib. As a consequence of this, he fought in more discharged battle formations than the imperial legionnaire, in which there was a place for powerful chopping blows.


            1. 0
              4 July 2018 21: 00
              upd. sent earlier than finished the post))
              It is clear that such a relatively long "Spanish" smooth surface was completely used by the Roman republican cavalrymen, especially the antique horses were smaller than medieval and modern, not exactly like a knightly destrié.
    2. +1
      3 July 2018 11: 44
      Quote: Weyland
      New manufacturing techniques (“Brescian's method”) and hardening (“berotinization”) made it possible to make armor against which a slashing sword became useless! And the methods of hardening the blades of Toledo (then “Toletum”) were famous in the Roman era, long before the Arab invasion! Moreover, the Romans would not have been able to defeat the Macedonians if by that time they had not crushed Spain and were not armed with Toledo swords that had cut Macedonian shields and helmets!

      I think, Constantine, that the main reason for the defeat of Macedonia in the wars with Rome lies far in a different plane. I tend to agree more with Vladislav - a more flexible, and therefore more perfect tactic of the Roman legion was much more important for their victory than a rather hypothetical superiority in the quality of the metal used to make weapons. Moreover, the relatively short gladius was not intended for cutting, it was a weapon for a close fight "shield to shield, body to body", where it is impossible to swing, and only piercing blows can be applied.
      1. +1
        3 July 2018 14: 39
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Moreover, the relatively short gladius was completely not designed for cutting,

        he also chopped not so bad - but I wrote about the effect of using Spanish mahaira, and not gladius (see my previous post.)
  10. 0
    7 July 2018 20: 31
    Weyland,
    Plutarch passed this as a fable
    They conveyed all this, as usual, in an exaggeratedly terrible form, assuring that it was impossible to escape from the pursuing Parthians, while they themselves were elusive, that their outlandish arrows were invisible in flight, and before you notice the arrow they pierced through everything that came across on the way, and the armament of armored riders is such a job that their spears pierce everything, and the shells withstand any blow. The soldiers heard this, and their courage melted away.
  11. 0
    9 July 2018 05: 31
    "but the conquistadors quickly thought of removing them (guns) from the ships and placing them on wheeled carriages. At a distance of 2000 yards (approx. 1800 m), they killed five or more people at once with a well-aimed core" .....
    -------------------------------------------------
    ----

    - What else is it ... - "approx. 1800 m" ...? - And this is at the beginning of the 16th century ..? - The author clearly "bent" ... -These pitiful little little guns then fired only at 70-120 meters ... -Even in the battle of Borodino (and then the artillery was already much more "advanced") the guns fired at 300-350 meters ... -yes and then ... -nuclei already simply fell, losing all their kinetic energy) and did not cause much damage ..; and bombs (explosive charges) flew no more than 100-150 meters ..; and buckshot could hit at a distance of no more than 50-70 meters ...
    - Well .., and if you take the crappy cannons of the Spaniards (of those times) .., then they could hit with buckshot at a distance of no more than 20-30 meters, and with cores ...- a little further ...- I already indicated the distance. ..

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