Iron Timur. Part of 1

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The great eastern conqueror Timur (Tamerlane) is often compared and put on a par with Attila and Genghis Khan. However, it is necessary to recognize that along with some common features, there are quite deep differences between these commanders and sovereigns. First of all, it should be pointed out that, unlike other great conquerors of the East, Timur did not rely on the military power of the nomads. Moreover, Tamerlane, in essence, “took revenge” from the Great Steppe: he defeated almost all the states of Chingizids, destroyed some at all, and others - weakened and deprived of former greatness. It is impossible to disagree with this thesis. In the work “Ancient Russia and the Great Steppe” Lev Gumilev wrote: “In Central Asia and Iran, a Muslim reaction to the dominance of nomads arose. It was headed by Otruchenny Mongol (Barlas) Timur, who restored the Khorezmian Sultanate, which was destroyed by the Mongols. Here Yasu replaced the Shari'a, the nukhurov - the ghoulam, the khan - the emir, the freedom of religion - the Muslim fanaticism. The Mongols in these countries, conquered by their ancestors, survived only as relics - Hazaras in Western Afghanistan. Together with Yasa, the stereotype of behavior, the ability to resist and our own culture disappeared. ” And further: “Timur considered Chinggis’s legacy to be his main enemy and was a consistent enemy of nomadic traditions.” Another researcher, S.P. Tolstov, believed that "Timur's power became a copy of the Khorezmshah sultanate, with the only difference that the capital was transferred from Gurganj to Samarkand". The paradox was that this “counter-revolution” in Maverannakhr and Iran was carried out under the banner of Chingizids, and “Timur, having already concentrated in his hands actual power, kept the khan from the descendants of Jagaty” (L. Gumilev).

Iron Timur. Part of 1
M.M. Gerasimov. Sculptural portrait of Tamerlane




Tamerlane loved the war and was merciless to the enemies, in this respect he differed little from a number of Asian and European warriors, sometimes even surpassing them in cruelty. "Behind the scenes" often remains the other side of the personality of the great conqueror: Timur inspired terror to the enemies, but not to his subjects, i.e. was not a tyrant. This circumstance favorably distinguished him from many rulers of the time.

“He was at the same time the scourge of his enemies, the idol of his soldiers and the father of his peoples,” said his historian Sheref al-Din about Tamerlane.

And if the first two statements do not cause surprise, then Timur looks somewhat unexpected as a “father of nations”. Meanwhile, information about the unconventional management methods of Tamerlane is encountered by the researcher with an enviable regularity, causing surprise and even doubt in their authenticity.

Indeed, can you trust the lines from Tamerlan's Autobiography, in which the great conqueror states: "I treated everyone equally strictly and fairly, without making any distinction and showing no preference for the rich over the poor ... patiently dealt with each case .. was always truthful in speeches and was able to distinguish the truth in what I was able to hear about real life. I never gave such a promise I could not fulfill. By fulfilling the promises I had given, I did not harm anyone in my injustice ... I never felt jealous of anyone ... "And if Timur was seriously ill, he said before his death:" God showed me mercy by giving me the opportunity to establish such good laws that now in all states of Iran and Turan no one dares to do anything bad to his neighbor, nobles dare not oppress the poor, all this gives me hope that God will forgive my sins, although there are many of them, I have the consolation that during my reign I did not allow the strong to offend the weak?

Many historians do not take into account these documents. Relying on numerous sources telling about the terrible repressions of Timur against the people who dared to resist, they view Tamerlane in the mainstream of traditional ideas - as a monster that horrified the whole world. Other researchers, recognizing that Tamerlane was cruel and his methods of warfare are inhuman, indicate that, regardless of the desire of Timur himself, his actions against Islamic states were much more effective than all the crusades, and therefore extremely useful for Byzantium, Western Europe and Russia. Still others consider Timur to be a very progressive ruler, whose only flaw was the desire to conquer the world, however, out of good intentions - because "this was, in his (Timur's) opinion, the only way to make people happy. The show of discord that plagued the Asian states was deplorable the position of the peoples oppressed by ruthless tyrants strengthened him in this idea. " (L. Lyangle).

What was pushing Timur to endless wars? Is it only thirst for profit (as claimed by many researchers)? Trekking Tamerlane really incredibly enriched the city of Maverannakhr, but Timur himself never had the opportunity to enjoy luxury. Most of his life he spent in endless campaigns, in which he bravely endured hardships on a par with ordinary soldiers: he was thirsty, made wearisome crossings over mountain passes and barren deserts, and rode high-flowing turbulent rivers on horseback. The money received as a result of successful wars, Tamerlane spent mainly on the preparation of new expeditions ("war fueled the war") and the construction of luxury buildings in Samarkand, Shakhrisyabze, Fergana, Bukhara, Keshe and Yasi. Part of the funds was also directed to the improvement of the roads and increasing the welfare of his loyal subjects: for example, after the defeat of the Golden Horde, taxes in the state of Tamerlane were canceled for three years. In his personal life, Timur was almost an ascetic, of all the pleasures the ruler of a huge empire preferred hunting and chess, and contemporaries claimed that he had made some improvements in this game. Arranging amusements for guests or courtiers, Tamerlane always made sure that their amusements "were not disastrous or very expensive for his subjects, did not distract them from their direct duties and did not lead to unnecessary costs" (L. Lyangle).

But maybe Tamerlan was a religious fanatic shedding rivers of blood in the name of converting the "infidels"? Indeed, in his Autobiography, Timur himself claimed that he fought out of jealousy of Islam, "whose banner ... raised high," seeing "in the spread of faith a mighty pledge of its own greatness." However, concern about "spreading the faith" did not prevent him from inflicting the most severe defeats of Ottoman Turkey and the Golden Horde, so the objective result of Timur's campaigns was the weakening of the Islamic onslaught on Byzantium, Russia and Western Europe. Surrounding himself with the theologians and descendants of the Prophet Timur in fact never was an orthodox Muslim fanatic. He did not show special preferences for either the Sunni or Shiite versions of Islam and in the conquered states usually supported the direction taken by the majority of the population: in Syria, for example, Tamerlan was considered zealous Shiite, in Khorasanna he restored Sunni orthodoxy, and in Masendarann ​​even punished Shiite dervishes. Christians who are permanently residing in the state of Tamerlane, or who come there for commercial purposes, could count on the protection of the law and protection on a par with the faithful subjects of Timur. Moreover, Ibn Arabshah argues that even in the army of Tamerlan it was possible to meet Christians and pagans. At the feasts, which arranged the "Mighty Sword of Islam and Mercy," wine, forbidden by the Quran, was freely served, and Timur's wives enjoyed unparalleled personal freedom in Muslim countries, taking part in all the holidays and often arranging them themselves. Therefore, there is no basis for accusing Tamerlan of "Islamic fundamentalism."

But maybe the fault was Tamerlane’s exorbitant ambition? "The earth should have only one master, like the sky, which has one God ... What is the earth and all its inhabitants for the ambition of one great sovereign?" - Timur repeatedly said. However, Tamerlane did not suffer from delusions of grandeur: knowing full well that he could not be Khan, he did not even try to become him. The heads of state created by Timur were nominally the legitimate descendants of Genghis Khan - first Suyurgatamysh, and then his son Sultan-Mahmoud. Decrees were drawn up on their behalf, a coin was minted. At the same time, Timur understood perfectly well that degenerated Chingizids, ready to cut each other’s throats, are not suitable for the role of world leaders. The standards that a ruler who must take responsibility for the destiny of the world must meet are so high that, trying out possible candidates, Timur came to a completely logical conclusion: the only person endowed with all the necessary qualities of an ideal leader is ... Timur himself (!) . It remained to make others believe this, and what could be more eloquent and more convincing than force? The high moral and business qualities that Tamerlane recognized for himself gave him the moral right to "take care" of the faithful followers of Islam around the world, but did not give him the right to rest: "A good king never has enough time to reign, and we are forced to work in favor of the subjects whom the Most High has entrusted to us as a sacred pledge. This will always be my main occupation, because I do not want the poor to pull me on the edge of clothes on the day of the horrendous court asking for revenge against me. "

So, having set himself the super-task “to bless humanity,” until the last days of his life, Timur stubbornly “worked” to ensure that as many people as possible became happy under his personal guidance. In order to break the will to "unnecessary" resistance and intimidate the population of the conquered countries who do not understand their own "good", fantastic pyramids of human skulls were built and ancient flowering cities were destroyed. (In fairness it should be said that the cities destroyed by order of Tamerlan were often restored by him, even in Christian Georgia, Timur ordered to rebuild the city of Bailakan). Such brutal order was gradually established in the conquered territories, that a lonely unarmed wanderer could not fear for his life and property, traveling through the lands to which Timur's terrible power extended.

It was precisely to ensure the future of this prosperous, authoritative, and well-managed state that Timur defeated all potential powers, with the exception of China, which survived only thanks to the death of Timur.

What management methods were used in the state of Timur? According to information from contemporary events sources, governors were appointed to their posts for a term of three years. After this time, inspectors were sent to the provinces, who were supposed to get the opinion of the residents. If the people were dissatisfied with the administration, the governor lost his property and was dismissed from his post, having no right to claim another for three years. The sons and grandsons of Tamerlane, who did not cope with the post, also could not count on his condescension. The governor of the former Mongolian kingdom of Hulagu (which included Northern Iran and Azerbaijan, Georgia and Armenia, Baghdad and Shiraz) Miranshah met his father, who had arrived with the inspection, on his knees and with a lasso around his neck.

“I have a rope and I can find my own, yours is too beautiful,” Timur told him.

Miranshah was thrown into prison, his property, including the decorations of wives and concubines, is described. The jewels of the stolen dignitaries did not have to be described - they brought them themselves. Those who did not justify the trust of Timur Pir-Mohammed and Iskender (grandchildren of the all-powerful ruler) were not only deprived of the posts of rulers in Fars and Ferghana, but also punished with sticks. But ordinary law-abiding taxpayers in the state to beat Timur was forbidden in the most categorical manner. In addition, Timur created a box office to help the poor, organized free food delivery points, alms-houses. In all the newly-conquered provinces, the poor had to come to “social services” to receive special signs for free meals.

The illiterate Timur spoke Turkish (Turkic) and Persian, knew the Quran well, understood astronomy and medicine, and valued educated people. In the campaigns, the conqueror's favorite entertainment was disputes, which he arranged between local theologians and the scientists who accompanied his army. AT history entered the dispute organized by Tamerlane in the city of Aleppo (Aleppo). On that day, Timur was not in the mood, and his questions were of a very dangerous and even provocative nature: he asked the scientist Sharaf ad-Din, for example, who among those killed Allah would take as martyrs in the gardens of the righteous: his warriors or Arabs? Referring to the words of the Prophet Mohammed, the scientist said that people who believe that they were dying for a just cause would go to heaven. Tamerlane did not like this answer, however, he stated that his opponent’s knowledge deserves encouragement. And to the historian Nizam ad-Din, Timur advised to always praise the winners - for the reason that "Allah knows who to give the victory to. To praise the vanquished is to resist the will of Allah." Scientists and poets in general, much was allowed at the court of the great conqueror. So, once Timur jokingly asked the courtiers how much time they would rate him when selling. The poet Ahmed Kermani (who wrote the verses in “The History of Timur”) who took the answer called the price in 25 Askerov - it was the cost of Tamerlane’s clothes: he himself “is not worth a penny.” This answer was not just bold, but extremely impudent and, most importantly, unjust, however, no repression against the poet followed.

In the edification of the descendants, Timur wrote (more precisely, dictated) the so-called "Code" ("Tyuzuk-i-Timur), which is a guide to governing the state, consisting of a number of rules (" Rules for the formation of the army "," Rules of distribution of salaries to the troops " , “Uniform and weapon rules”, etc.) and service instructions (“Vizire’s official duties”, “Council meeting rules”, etc.). In addition, the “Code” included training manuals on strategies and tactics, among which were, for example:
"The order of battle for my victorious armies."
"Regulations on the conduct of war, the production of attacks and retreats, order in the battles and the defeat of the troops."
And some others.

These manuals have been illustrated with numerous examples of successful leadership in military operations:
"The plan I was following to occupy Herat, the capital of Khorasan."
"Measures to defeat Tokhtamysh Khan".
"My orders for the victory over Mahmud, the ruler of Delhi, and Malahun" and others.

According to the “Code”, an opponent whose army was smaller than a 40 000 man was supposed to send troops under the leadership of one of the sons of the ruler, accompanied by two experienced emirs. If the enemy had a larger army, Tamerlan himself went on a campaign. Timur's troops outnumbered the armies of other countries not in quantity, but in terms of quality. They were formed on a professional basis, during the battles were built in several lines, which were introduced into the battle gradually, and each soldier knew his place in the ranks and the task that had to be performed by their unit. The cavalry of Tamerlane, if necessary, could get off of horses and act on foot, making very difficult maneuvers. The soldiers were dressed in a uniform that Timur introduced first in the world. In addition, there is evidence that it was Timur (according to other sources, his cook) was the author of the Fergana pilaf recipe. There was this significant event for the Central Asian cuisine, allegedly during the march on Ankara. Timur then drew attention to the traditional food of wandering dervishes (based on boiled lamb or beef legs), which was digested for a long time in the stomach, giving a long feeling of satiety, and allowed to overcome long distances on foot. An ingenious innovation was the order to add rice to this dish. Was it really so? Hard to say. But the version of the invention of pilaf by Alexander the Great too clearly gives a legend. And the “Chinese” version of plov origin does not look reliable either, since the traditional technology of rice preparation in China is fundamentally different from the Central Asian one. The version according to which pilaf was invented by Avicenna also does not seem convincing, because it is a democratic, simple to prepare and nutritious, but rather “heavy” dish is ideal for soldiers on the march, but is unlikely to be sick in bed. However, we are too distracted from the main topic of our article.


Tamerlane Engraving


Interesting information about the relationship of Timur to his soldiers. The great conqueror always respected the soldiers and did not recognize corporal punishment, saying that "the chief, whose power is weaker than the stick and the stick, is unworthy of the dignity he holds." Punishment and expulsion from the army served as punishment for the guilty. Instead of the "carrot", Timur preferred to use the "carrot". The awards for the distinguished were served with praise, gifts, an increase in the share in the booty, an appointment to the guard of honor, a promotion in rank, the name of a batyr, a Bagadur - and the warriors reciprocated their leader.

“A friend of brave warriors, himself full of courage, he knew how to make himself respect and obey,” Ibn Arabshah, a very strict historian, wrote about Timur.

At the beginning of his career as a ruler, Timur was especially disposed to Kesh and wanted to make it the spiritual center of Central Asia. For this purpose, scientists from Khorezm, Bukhara and Ferghana were resettled there. However, he soon changed his mind and the beautiful Samarkand became forever the favorite city of Tamerlane, and I must say that it was Timur who owed much of its magnificence to this city.


V.Vereshchagin. Tamerlane's doors


Other cities of Maverannahr, a central and privileged part of the state of Tamerlane, also experienced the influence of the Timurid Renaissance. Everyone could freely and freely enter the territory of Maverannahr, but it was possible to leave there only with special permission: thus, Tamerlane struggled with the “brain drain” and workers. The fact that “cadres decide everything” Timur understood as well as Stalin, therefore, he always considered artists and skilled artisans to be the most valuable part of the spoils. As a result, Samarkand was About the best master builders, weavers, blacksmiths, jewelers, as well as scientists and poets were resettled. If you believe the sources, after death Tamerlan was severely punished for such a "love" for foreigners. German knight Schiltberger (who after the battle at Nikopol was captured To the Turkish Sultan Bayazid, and after the defeat of the latter at Ankara, he served Tamerlane) wrote that "in the temple where Timur was buried, at night moans were heard, which stopped only when the prisoners taken away by Timur were released to their homeland." Approximately the same is reported by the Armenian chronicler Thomas Metsopsky.

Anyway, the population of Samarkand under Tamerlane reached 150 000 people. To emphasize the greatness of his capital, he ordered a number of settlements to be built around it, which received the names of the largest cities in the world: Sultania, Shiraz, Baghdad, Dimishka (Damascus), Misra (Cairo). In Samarkand, Timur built such outstanding architectural structures as the Cook-Saray, the Cathedral Mosque, the Bibikhany Madrasa, the Shakhi-Zinda mausoleum and much more. How much Timur loved his city can be seen, if only by how seriously the conqueror of half the world was offended by the famous poet Hafiz, who wrote the lines: "If a Shiraz Turkish woman carries my heart, I will give both Samarkand and Bukhara for her Indian birthmark." Taking Shiraz, Tamerlan ordered to find Hafiz, the conversation between them went down in history:

“Oh, wretched one!” Said Timur. “I spent my life exalting my favorite cities, Samarkand and Bukhara, and you want to give them to your whore for a mole!”

“Oh, Master of the Faithful! Because of my generosity, I am in such poverty,” Hafiz replied.

Assessing the joke, Timur ordered to give the poet a robe and let him go.


Hafiz Shirazi


The great city had to trade freely with the whole world, therefore, under Timur, concern for the safety of the caravan routes became one of the main tasks of the government. The goal was achieved, and the roads in the state of Timur were considered the most comfortable and safe in the world.

The greatness and power of Tamerlane shook the imagination not only of his contemporaries, but also of the conqueror of the half of the Universe himself. "My strong army, settling down at Erzrum, occupied the whole steppe surrounding this city; I looked at my troops and thought: after all, I am alone and it seems that I do not have any special power, but all this is an army and every warrior separately - all "Of course, they obey my will. Once I give any order, it will be executed exactly. Reflecting in this way, I thanked the Creator, who so magnified me among his slaves," Timur wrote in his Autobiography.

We will try to sort out the reasons for the rise and victories of this ignoble Central Asian Bek from an unremarkable Mongolian barlas family in the second part of our article.
184 comments
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  1. +8
    20 June 2018 06: 44
    An amazingly strong and intelligent man, who managed to put such a significant trace in history.
    And a mysterious ..
    The autopsy of the burial of Tamerlane in Samarkand ended in the evening 21 June 1941 year.
    A few hours later began war.
    Certainly a coincidence ....
    1. +1
      20 June 2018 08: 09
      Also remembered about this amazing case
      The autopsy of Tamerlane’s burial in Samarkand ended in the evening of June 21, 1941.
      A few hours later the war began.

      hi
    2. +2
      20 June 2018 09: 31
      in general, in all these "medieval" stories, the most interesting and exciting is not the content of the manuscripts, but the history of the manuscripts themselves, for example, the manuscript to which the author of the article "The Secret History of the Mongols" refers. This manuscript was acquired by the monk Kafarov in Beijing in 1872. And translated into Russian entirely to the MIDDLE of the 20th century. Well, it is written, as is usual with historians in the 13th century.

      https://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/211960

      It was precisely at this time that actually created modern history.

      Take the word _Barlas_. This word has a clearly expressed Turkic suffix _la_. The question arises: why is the Mongolian word an ethnonym and suddenly has Turkic footprints? That's impossible. Therefore, the word itself is most likely the fiction of a translator. Then the root of the word _Bar_ itself is a very common token in ALL languages ​​of the world and in all applications of the culture of mankind.
      For example, a country - Barbaria or Barca - is the whole of North Africa.
      In general, the story that Timur -Temir (Turk) -Irono was a Mongol himself, then fell in love with the Türks so much that he renounced his native Mongolian culture and religion, became a Muslim and spoke again in Türkic. This story does not go into any gates by its absurdity .
      Timur-Zhelez was born in the Islamic environment and was a Muslim all his life. And _Mongols_ is the word -Mongals replaced with a distorted meaning. The Mongols are just the people who shook the conquests of the foundations of the universe, and not the unfortunate people in the desert, who grazed sheep all their lives, did not know either writing or iron production until the 20th century.
      1. VLR
        +1
        20 June 2018 09: 46
        Looking ahead a bit - a quote from the second part of the article:
        "Dzhagataysky ulus did not exist for long and at the beginning of the XIV century. It split into two parts - Maverannahr and Mogulistan. The reason for this was the struggle between the Mongol clans, some of which (djelairas and barrases) fell under the spell of Islamic culture and settled in the cities of Maverannahra. In contrast to them , the Mongols of Semirech'e continued to preserve the purity of the nomadic tradition, calling the barlasas and Jeleires karaunas, that is, half-breeds, half-breeds, who, in turn, called the Mongols of Semirechye and Kashgar jets (robbers) and viewed them as crude and rude barbarians. "
        That is, of course, Timur was a Muslim. And his grandfather refused from the Mongolian culture, perhaps already his great-grandfather.
        1. 0
          20 June 2018 09: 58
          Quote: VlR
          Mongols of the Seven Rivers


          But what did the Mongols live in Semirechye? I didn’t even know about that ...
          1. VLR
            0
            20 June 2018 10: 27
            Well, of course, lived. Not as indigenous people, but about the same way as the Mongols lived in Sarai Berke on the Volga. Or - in China.
            1. 0
              20 June 2018 10: 31
              Quote: VlR
              Well, of course, lived. Not as indigenous people, but about the same way as the Mongols lived in Sarai Berke on the Volga. Or - in China.


              this is after the conquest, i.e. the Mongols are not at all aborigines of the Seven Rivers.
              1. 0
                20 June 2018 13: 27
                Quote: Bar1
                the Mongols are not at all aborigines of the Seven Rivers.

                The natives were these Saki-Tigrahaud comrades, but that was long before the Mongols, and before the Mongols there were Uighurs.
                1. 0
                  20 June 2018 14: 23
                  Quote: Serg65
                  Quote: Bar1
                  the Mongols are not at all aborigines of the Seven Rivers.

                  The natives were these Saki-Tigrahaud comrades, but that was long before the Mongols, and before the Mongols there were Uighurs.

                  there have never been Mongols.
                  1. +2
                    20 June 2018 14: 33
                    Quote: Bar1
                    there were never Mongols

                    Come on! belay
                    Not far from modern Bishkek there is the city of Tokmok, this city stands on the site of one of the three capital cities of the Karakhanids, namely Balasaguna. Question on the backfill, who destroyed this city, and subsequently ruled in these parts?
                    1. 0
                      20 June 2018 14: 34
                      Quote: Serg65
                      Quote: Bar1
                      there were never Mongols

                      Come on! belay
                      Not far from modern Bishkek there is the city of Tokmok, this city stands on the site of one of the three capital cities of the Karakhanids, namely Balasaguna. Question on the backfill, who destroyed this city, and subsequently ruled in these parts?

                      destroyed and passed by, but in general the Mongols are from Mongolia and they are nowhere else.
                      1. +3
                        20 June 2018 14: 57
                        Quote: Bar1
                        in general, the Mongols are from Mongolia and they are nowhere else.

                        laughing Do not believe it, the Gunas are also from Mongolia, and they are also no more!
                      2. 0
                        20 June 2018 15: 41
                        Quote: Bar1
                        destroyed and passed by, but in general the Mongols are from Mongolia and they are nowhere else.

                        The Mongols and now in the Semirechye as much as they like, prefer to call themselves something else. For example, the grave of a respected man, considered a Kyrgyz. The first half of the 20th century.
          2. +3
            20 June 2018 15: 28
            Quote: Bar1
            But what did the Mongols live in Semirechye?

            On Wikipedia, type “Mogulistan” and make sure that the entire Semirechye was part of it!
            By the way, near Alma-Ata there are the towns of Burundai (Boraldai), Kaskelen and Chemolgan (Shamalgan).
            If you think that these are Turkic toponyms, then you are deeply mistaken - these are the names of the Mongol military leaders!
            1. +1
              23 June 2018 23: 15
              These names are not related to the "Mongols" of Genghis Khan. They belong to the period of the Dzungar Khanate. When these territories for a very short time were part of the nomadic state.
            2. 0
              6 July 2018 16: 03
              Well, you won’t believe it. But this very Burundai was called Olex ... Typically a Mongolian name .. Ipatiev Chronicle .. God knows who is lying there ..
      2. +3
        20 June 2018 15: 21
        Quote: Bar1
        Timur - Temir (Turk) - Iron

        and you were not interested how the word "iron" sounds in Mongolian? Tөmөr laughing
        Quote: Bar1
        But the root of the word _Bar_ itself is a very common token in ALL languages ​​of the world and in all applications of the culture of mankind.

        Is there anything that is not a noun in the Turkic languages, but a verb? laughing
        1. 0
          20 June 2018 16: 41
          Quote: Weyland
          and you were not interested how the word "iron" sounds in Mongolian? Tөmөr


          so what?

          Quote: Weyland
          Is there anything that is not a noun in the Turkic languages, but a verb?


          prove the laughter ...
          1. +1
            20 June 2018 20: 29
            Quote: Bar1
            prove the laughter ...

            google translator open and translate
  2. +9
    20 June 2018 06: 47
    "Tamerlan spent mainly on the preparation of new expeditions (" the war fed the war ") and the construction of luxury buildings in Samarkand, Shakhrisyabz, Ferghana, Bukhara, Keshe and Yasakh." The initiator of the creation of Ferghana is the Russian general, “conqueror of Turkestan” Mikhail Dmitrievich Skobelev. The city was founded in 1876; June 18, 1887 approved the design of its device. Founder, first builder - second military governor Alexander Konstantinovich Abramov. “A little lie causes great suspicion” (Gruppenführer L. Broneva (Müller))
    1. VLR
      +4
      20 June 2018 07: 13
      I apologize, it was necessary to write "Margilan": Fergana was originally called "New Margilan", because of this, some of the authors confused, but I did not check.
      1. +1
        20 June 2018 07: 55
        Ok, it happens!
      2. 0
        20 June 2018 16: 29
        No comments. Just the source
      3. 0
        20 June 2018 18: 12
        For some reason, the title and a very interesting text do not cling. If you are interested, let me know how you can forward it.
    2. 0
      20 June 2018 07: 52
      Brigadenfuhrer Schellenberg smile
    3. +2
      20 June 2018 15: 25
      Quote: Amateur
      The initiator of the creation of Ferghana is the Russian general, “conqueror of Turkestan” Mikhail Dmitrievich Skobelev. The city was founded in 1876

      In fact, it is generally known that Ferghana usually doesn’t mean relatively young city, and the historical region in Central Asia (Ferghana Valley region) - one of the oldest areas of settled agricultural culture dating back to the Bronze Age (from Wikipedia) tongue
      1. 0
        20 June 2018 16: 00
        "Samarkand, Shakhrisyabze, Ferghana, Bukhara, Keshe and Yasakh." This is how I understand the city.
    4. 0
      20 June 2018 17: 55
      (Gruppenfuhrer L. Broneva (Mueller))

      You are right about Muller .... But Leonid Bronevoy had the title of People's Artist of the USSR !!!
      1. +1
        20 June 2018 17: 58
        But in 17 instants this was said by L. Broneva. And what Mueller himself thought about this, then I'm sorry, no one knows
        1. +1
          20 June 2018 18: 02
          Rather, Julian Semenov said ...
          1. 0
            20 June 2018 18: 09
            Y. Semenov wrote. And all the same, said the monopolistic L. Broneva.
  3. VLR
    +5
    20 June 2018 07: 24
    Still, compare the 2 portrait of Timur in this article:
    On the reconstruction of Gerasimov - a typical Mongolian.
    The portrait of a contemporary - a typical Caucasoid.
    As a result of opening the grave of Timur in 1941, it turned out that he had red hair. And his contemporaries called him red-bearded. And this is neither the first nor the last blooper of Gerasimov: his portraits of Andrey Bogolyubsky and Sophia Paleolog are no less fantasy. You can not believe Gerasimov - you can not!
    By the way, in 1987 at a conference, one graduate student from Tashkent assured me (when we drank tea with Uzbek lemons brought by him) that the real, purebred, Uzbeks are blond and blue-eyed. They are few, but they exist. Interestingly, he himself was neither blond nor blue-eyed.
    1. 0
      20 June 2018 07: 57
      In the 80s in Central Asia and Kazakhstan, the theme of blue-eyed and fair-haired was widely circulated.
    2. +1
      20 June 2018 08: 40
      Quote: VlR
      Also, compare 2 portraits of Timur in this article: At the reconstruction of Gerasimov - a typical Mongol. At the portrait of a contemporary - a typical Caucasoid.

      This is a good reason to advocate the theory of "non-standard" stories :)
      European engraving face. Here you can refer to the fact that the European did the engraving ...
      1. VLR
        +3
        20 June 2018 08: 59
        No - no with a "non-standard" story. Just changed ethnic groups. Here Temujin, for example, is also red-bearded and green-eyed. The Mongolian legend explains it this way: a woman named Alan Co'a was born from the union of a wolf and a doe. Then she was fertilized by a sunbeam, which, penetrating the smoke hole in the roof of the yurt, touched the woman's abdomen, and the ancestors of Genghis Khan came out of it. The Mongols (the first, "real") were tall, red-haired with green or blue eyes. But they were few. With Batu Khan, for example, they went to the “last sea” 4 000 Mongols (they are all known by name - because they became the founders of aristocratic families), the rest are the team of the Great Steppe plus Bulgars, Alans and some others. The wives of the Mongols took the girls from the aristocratic families of the conquered countries (and the concubines - all they liked). And gradually the Mongols simply dissolved in their countless subjects.
        1. 0
          20 June 2018 11: 01
          As far as I understand, fair-haired and blue-eyed is a recessive feature of the human genome inherent in closed ethnic groups, manifesting itself exclusively in Caucasians.
          1. +2
            20 June 2018 11: 36
            This is from school biology. It is necessary to interrupt the constant replenishment of the dominant, and the recessive sign will come out like a stubborn wheatgrass. An integral characteristic of a "recessive" sign is stability. It should be called the Sustainable sign, but .. scientific verbiage called him "recessive." Good at least not degenerative.
            1. 0
              20 June 2018 12: 42
              Where is the contradiction with what I have stated?
        2. 0
          25 June 2018 14: 49
          > She was then fertilized by a sunbeam that penetrated the smoke hole in the roof of the yurt and touched the woman's belly

          This is a feature of the Indo-European pagan religions, first appeared in Urartu (it was proved that the Urartians had an Indo-European religion) about their main god Khaldi, from there the legend of Miter arose in the same way.

          Therefore, one of the two is either the Mongols who migrated Indo-Europeans, and Samsonov is right here, or this whole legend is a remake.
      2. +2
        20 June 2018 09: 32
        Wait, they will still run.
    3. +3
      20 June 2018 10: 17
      In general, there are many images of Tamerlane. For example, medieval images give an idea of ​​the great conqueror as a typical white man. For example, such a one, in European clothes



      or such



      or such



      As you can see, there are many images and everyone says that Tamerlan is a white man. Then the question arises on what basis did the same historian Gerasimov display his image not according to historical data, but it is not clear for what reasons?
      The answer of such Gerasimov urged his "tamerlan" under the current historical concept, contrary to logic and historical truth, contrary to scientific ethics i.e. just misled both the scientific community and the rest of the people.
      1. +7
        20 June 2018 10: 27
        Quote: Bar1
        For example, medieval images give an idea of ​​the great conqueror as a typical white man

        If he was painted by Nubians, then he would be black ...
        1. 0
          20 June 2018 10: 37
          Quote: Puncher
          Quote: Bar1
          For example, medieval images give an idea of ​​the great conqueror as a typical white man

          If he was painted by Nubians, then he would be black ...


          Do you think medieval artists are idiots?
          But Gerasimov himself seems to be white, and not white painted, is he also a Nubian by your logic?
          1. +5
            20 June 2018 11: 51
            Gerasimov, unlike portrait painters of 17-19 centuries. (and not contemporaries of Timur) "saw" Tamerlane, held in his hands and knew what he was doing
            1. VLR
              0
              20 June 2018 12: 22
              "Gerasimov, in contrast to the portrait painters of 17-19в. (And not Timur's contemporaries)" saw "Tamerlan, held in his hands"

              But no faith to him.
              Now, tell me, where did the "Mongol fold" (epicantus) appear on his sculptural portrait of Andrei Bogolyubsky? Then about the Mongols in Russia have not yet heard.
              And where in his portrait of Sophia Paleolog double chin and mustache? About which Italians write.
              1. +3
                20 June 2018 12: 51
                Gerasimov did not "make" Sophia. And the Italians described it in feuilleton.
                As for contemporary portrait painters, firstly, they are not contemporaries, and secondly, they painted Caesar and Cyrus and Saladin like that. I saw these portraits in the Uffizi Gallery, incl. Tamerlane
              2. +2
                20 June 2018 15: 44
                Quote: VlR
                Now, tell me, where did the "Mongol fold" (epicantus) appear on his sculptural portrait of Andrei Bogolyubsky? Then about the Mongols in Russia have not yet heard.

                take an interest in the nationality of his mother - "Aepina daughter"! The first wave of conquerors in which the Mongoloids were present was the Huns. In the pre-Mongol period, among the Polovtsians of the "Wild Field", the Mongoloids were already have met (although by no means did not prevail - there were 15-20 percent of them)
          2. +2
            20 June 2018 13: 11
            Quote: Bar1
            consider medieval artists as idiots

            For the rascal ... On the other hand, to draw a portrait of a man whom I have never seen in my eyes is more than a difficult task.
            P. S: while working in the UR, the snapshots of wanted criminals were always amused, compiled from the words of the victims who saw them live. In 100% of cases, there was nothing in common with a real criminal, absolutely no similarities. By the way, you probably know that even portraits painted live from royal persons differed from the original, because the artist always had a risk of losing his head, "Photoshop" has a long history
            1. 0
              20 June 2018 13: 45
              Quote: Puncher
              For the rascal ... C


              Well, Gerasimov, who then, for example, with wide-turned lips, what is unusual for white people, how did he recognize him? It is impossible to establish this on the skull.
              1. +4
                20 June 2018 14: 06
                Quote: Bar1
                Well, who is Gerasimov then

                So he worked directly with the skull of Timur, and his method of reconstruction is recognized throughout the world, so he is a great anthropologist. And the artist who painted the portrait of Timur according to someone’s descriptions and personal feelings cannot be taken seriously
                1. 0
                  20 June 2018 14: 24
                  Quote: Puncher
                  Quote: Bar1
                  Well, who is Gerasimov then

                  So he worked directly with the skull of Timur, and his method of reconstruction is recognized throughout the world, so he is a great anthropologist. And the artist who painted the portrait of Timur according to someone’s descriptions and personal feelings cannot be taken seriously


                  about the "great" is doubtful ...
            2. 0
              20 June 2018 14: 40
              Serov would categorically disagree with you, he had the right to it.
      2. +1
        20 June 2018 11: 00
        Well, the Mongols



        great conquerors of the universe.
        1. +8
          20 June 2018 13: 18
          Quote: Bar1
          Well, the Mongols

          Judging by one photograph of the whole nation?
          And why not for the president of Mongolia for example?
          1. 0
            20 June 2018 14: 42
            Quote: Puncher
            Quote: Bar1
            Well, the Mongols

            Judging by one photograph of the whole nation?
            And why not for the president of Mongolia for example?


            is it overexposure or chubey?
            1. +3
              20 June 2018 14: 48
              Quote: Bar1
              is it overexposure or chubey?

              This is the president of the Mongolian People's Republic, Khaltmaagiin Battulga.
            2. 0
              20 June 2018 14: 51
              But what does it have to do with the 13th century Mongol army?
              1. +3
                20 June 2018 16: 05
                But what does it have to do with the 13th century Mongol army?

                The same as your photo with a modern Mongol.
                1. 0
                  20 June 2018 16: 43
                  Quote: Razvedka_Boem
                  But what does it have to do with the 13th century Mongol army?

                  The same as your photo with a modern Mongol.

                  my photo is a photo of a typical person from Mongolia, and not this pitching.
                  1. +4
                    20 June 2018 17: 42
                    Quote: Bar1
                    my photo is a photo of a typical person from Mongolia, and not this pitching.

                    This is a photo of an elderly man taken at the beginning of the 20th century, do you think all the Mongols were born immediately by weak old people? And if you attach a photo of a Mongolian woman, then we can say that all the Mongols are women? What a funny logic you have.
                    With regards to the President of Mongolia. He is not the only one there so that you are aware of all the modern yakodzuns in Japan, the Mongols, and for the Japanese this is not a reason for joy. One sumo wrestler of Japanese descent, in violation of the rules, was declared a yakodzun, although he won only one championship instead of three, only to dilute the Mongols with the Japanese.
                    1. +2
                      20 June 2018 18: 35

                      in general, sumo wrestlers in Mongolia once, twice - and miscalculated, but almost all the strong men are polls
                      1. +1
                        20 June 2018 18: 49
                        You did not count how many people in the picture? 300 people. Is this called "all polls"? In the foreground are a few pumped in the abdomen. So do not exaggerate.
        2. +3
          20 June 2018 13: 49

          And the ancestors of these guys kept the entire Middle East and Greece in fear in addition .... so what?
          1. 0
            20 June 2018 14: 47
            Quote: Serg65

            And the ancestors of these guys kept the entire Middle East and Greece in fear in addition .... so what?


            is it Bukhara Jews?
    4. +1
      20 June 2018 10: 18
      Quote: VlR
      that the real, purebred, Uzbeks are fair-haired and blue-eyed. They are few, but they exist. Interestingly, he was neither fair-haired nor blue-eyed.

      Nonsense is complete, the only people (ethnos) in Asia whose features of Europeans are the blond and blue-eyed Pamiri (200 thousand) in Tajikistan.
      1. 0
        20 June 2018 10: 30
        Quote: RUSS
        Quote: VlR
        that the real, purebred, Uzbeks are fair-haired and blue-eyed. They are few, but they exist. Interestingly, he was neither fair-haired nor blue-eyed.

        Nonsense is complete, the only people (ethnos) in Asia whose features of Europeans are the blond and blue-eyed Pamiri (200 thousand) in Tajikistan.


        Uzbeks are the people who were created by the Bolsheviks in the 20gg 20 century. The people were created from the actual Uzbeks (according to the census of the Republic of Ingushetia for 1897 there were about 400 thousand people), Sarts and Tatars.
        So the peoples of Sarta and Tatars are precisely the white population of Central Asia, they spoke Turkish, religion is Islam.
        1. +1
          20 June 2018 13: 52
          Quote: Bar1
          The people were created from the actual Uzbeks (according to the census of the Republic of Ingushetia for 1897 there were about 400 thousand people), Sarts and Tatars

          And how do sarts differ from Uzbeks? Sart is such a nationality or what?
          1. 0
            20 June 2018 14: 26
            Quote: Serg65
            Quote: Bar1
            The people were created from the actual Uzbeks (according to the census of the Republic of Ingushetia for 1897 there were about 400 thousand people), Sarts and Tatars

            And how do sarts differ from Uzbeks? Sart is such a nationality or what?

            or yes
            1. 0
              20 June 2018 15: 55
              Quote: Bar1
              or yes

              No . This is a curse word used by each other in different nationalities. Az At first, the Russians did not understand that this was a curse. I won’t talk.
              1. 0
                20 June 2018 16: 23
                Quote: Humpty
                Quote: Bar1
                or yes

                No . This is a curse word used by each other in different nationalities. Az At first, the Russians did not understand that this was a curse. I won’t talk.


                you don’t know history, but all sorts of bad conjectures, here is the census of the Republic of Ingushetia for 1897
                Ferghana region
                -Sartov-788 thousand people
                -Tatar-Türks-261tys.ch.
                -Uzbekov-153 thousand people.
                -Kyrgyz-200tys. people
                there were people, but white dissolved in black.

                1. 0
                  20 June 2018 17: 04
                  Quote: Bar1
                  don't know stories

                  The word "(sary um), sart", I believe the real name of the people, nationality can not be. And now it serves only as a curse. By the way, I am critical of the initiator of this census. He is certainly a famous person, but in his studies he sometimes made gross errors. One such mistake led to a centuries-old territorial dispute with China.
                  1. 0
                    20 June 2018 17: 09
                    Quote: Humpty
                    Quote: Bar1
                    don't know stories

                    The word "(sary um), sart", I believe the real name of the people, nationality can not be. And now it serves only as a curse. By the way, I am critical of the initiator of this census. He is certainly a famous person, but in his studies he sometimes made gross errors. One such mistake led to a centuries-old territorial dispute with China.


                    sart is not sary-yellow, but from
                    -Sart-se / this is art of the Horde, i.e. this is the Horde.
                    Well, your arguments that there are no sarts are certainly more convincing.
              2. 0
                21 June 2018 12: 17
                Quote: Humpty
                This is a curse word used by each other in different nationalities. Az At first, the Russians did not understand that this was a curse. I won’t talk.

                If you do not remember, the Syr Darya in antiquity was called Yaksart. Sart (tadzh. Big-headed) - truncated "yaksart" (one big-headed) - from the Saki-tigrahaud in huge caps. Never a curse word!
        2. 0
          21 June 2018 09: 05
          Quote: Bar1
          So the peoples of Sarta and Tatars are precisely the white population of Central Asia, they spoke Turkish, religion is Islam.

          Tatars are one of the branches of the Mongols, how can they even be Caucasians?
      2. +2
        20 June 2018 13: 51
        Quote: RUSS
        the only people (ethnos) in Asia who have the features of Caucasians are the blond and blue-eyed Pamiri

        On Issyk Kul there are blue-eyed and red-haired Kyrgyz!
      3. 0
        20 June 2018 15: 47
        Quote: RUSS
        the only people (ethnos) in Asia

        Have you ever seen live Shors? And the Yenisei Kyrgyz? And how many fair-haired / red-gray / blue-green / green-eyed (albeit Mongoloid) Nanai / Udege / Manchurians are in the know?
      4. +1
        20 June 2018 20: 08
        Quote: RUSS
        Nonsense is complete, the only people (ethnos) in Asia whose features of Europeans are the blond and blue-eyed Pamiri (200 thousand) in Tajikistan.

        How categorically. Red-haired light-eyed Turkmens are not uncommon, two or three served with me in the same unit.
    5. BAI
      +5
      20 June 2018 10: 19
      I just wanted to say that thank God - no one named Timur a Slav, and now - it begins.
      It’s better to talk about red Georgians.
      1. +1
        20 June 2018 10: 43
        Quote: BAI
        I just wanted to say that thank God - no one named Timur a Slav, and now - it begins.
        It’s better to talk about red Georgians.


        Slavs buddy is a term coined not earlier than the 16-17th century, and this was done in order to make the ONE PEOPLE, which bore different names, Wends, Slovenes, Lombards, Dinlin, Gala, Mo
        Ngals, Barbaras, Russians, Luzhchans should be replaced by different peoples such as the Slavs. But in no chronicles before 16c there are no Slavs. There are Slovenes, also the Lavrentievsky chronicle.
    6. +9
      20 June 2018 11: 23
      "And this is not the first and not the last mistake of Gerasimov ..."
      The historian of the LJ is felt. The fact that Timur naturally had red hair and not dyed with henna, as contemporaries described, was said by Gerasimov: “Timur’s hair is thick, straight, gray-red, with a predominance of dark chestnut or red. Eyebrow hair is worse, but still on these residues it was not difficult to imagine and reproduce the general shape of the eyebrow. Well-preserved individual hairs reached 12 to 14 mm in length, and they were strongly twisted, thin. Their color is dark chestnut. " (Gerasimov M.M. Portrait of Tamerlane (Experience of sculptural reproduction on a craniological basis).
      The engraving cited in the article, which was obviously intended to convict Gerasimov of "blooper",
      printed in Paris in 1722, so there is no need to talk about its reliability.
      Even contemporaries practically did not leave descriptions of Timur's appearance. The most detailed is with Arabshah. But on its basis to determine whether Timur had Mongoloid features or was not impossible.
      The Persian miniatures of the XNUMXth century also depict non-European.

      But they were not created from nature either.
      Nowhere has it ever been claimed that the Gerasimov method, which has been repeatedly tested and improved today, gives 100% similarity.
      But Timur’s skull lies in its mausoleum. He was returned there in 1942. Just that there is no one who wants to practically refute Gerasimov and reveal to the world Tamerlane, a European, red-haired and blue-eyed. Talk alone.
      And in order to speak to Gerasimov "blunder" it is necessary to be at least someone in this area. Otherwise, it’s just a blunder.
      1. +1
        20 June 2018 11: 39
        Quote: Curious
        The Persian miniatures of the XNUMXth century also depict non-European.


        but tell me, how do medieval Iranian images and the prohibition in Islam of depicting people and animals compare?
        1. +7
          20 June 2018 12: 20
          I am not a scientist - a theologian, much less an ulcer, therefore I will refer to a recognized authority - the Prophet Muhammad - who claims that religion is called to make life easier and not complicate.
          Therefore, it is necessary to look at the hadiths talking about the prohibition of images and sculptures from the following positions: for what purpose this or that living is depicted, how it will be applied, what goals the artist pursued.
          That is, the image should be treated without any attention, respect, indifferent (mumtahan).
          So since the time of the Prophet Muhammad it has been established that objects on which there is an image of animals or people (rugs, bedspreads, pillows, coins, etc.) and to which the above attitude is applicable do not carry a canonical prohibition (haram). The maximum that can be is unwantedness (makruh).
          If you want to study the issue in more detail, I recommend the eighteen-volume Al-Ascalani A. Fath al-bari bi sharh sahih al-bukhari (Opening by the Creator (for a person in the understanding of the new) through comments on the set of hadiths of al-Bukhari).
          1. 0
            20 June 2018 12: 40
            Quote: Curious
            and to which the aforementioned attitude applies, do not carry a canonical prohibition (haram). The maximum that can be is unwantedness (makruh).


            nnda surprisingly, there are canonical bans in Islam, do not drink wine, do not eat pork, do not portray people and animals, and there is much more. It is with this that a person who wants to become an Orthodox Muslim becomes one. And if a person grossly violates the prohibitions, because drawing and depicting people and animals is the privilege of Allah alone, then such a person cannot be considered a Muslim.
            Either that, or not at all.
            By the way, all these Persian, Indian, Chinese, Japanese miniatures, as they usually appear only in the 19th century, this is said, for example, Wikipedia.

            Until the second half of the XIX century, Persian painting did not cause any interest among European collectors. It is known that Rembrandt possessed at least two Persian or Mughal miniatures from which he made copies before he was forced to sell them in 1656. However, this fact can hardly be considered a sign of serious Persian influence on European painting. The real acquaintance with Persian miniature in Europe coincided with the rebellion against the stagnant academic rules that took place in European art in the second half of the XNUMXth century. Uninhibited colors, a sense of coziness and comfort emanating from Persian miniatures, struck the French Fauvist artists. The most famous master of this group, one of the largest artists of the XNUMXth century, Henri Matisse, paid a well-deserved tribute to classical Persian painting. Some of his works are more like enlarged fragments of Persian miniatures than a classic European painting.


            https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Персидская_живопись

            and the fact that all these miniatures are in England and in the Hermitage, and not in their historical homeland, also says that this art has only a slight touch to Persia, namely everything is drawn correctly, but it’s not 15c and not Persian artists, but 19th century and French artists, as if with a shliman.
            1. +5
              20 June 2018 13: 44
              Sorry, of course, but apparently you have not read my comment. I tried to convey to your understanding that theological issues, whatever religion, are very complex and require professional knowledge, and not reading Wiki.
              The same applies to art in general and medieval Persian painting in particular.

              Knock carving on the soffit of the mosque arch in Nain. 960 Fragment.
              1. 0
                20 June 2018 14: 20
                Quote: Curious
                call me, of course, but apparently, you have not read my comment. I tried to convey to your understanding that theological issues, whatever religion, are very complex and require professional knowledge, and not reading Wiki.


                no need to complicate what’s simple. There are prohibitions.
                Regarding your image supposedly from a mosque. Is this image stored most likely in some European museum? why is it torn from the arch itself?
                In addition, if you look closely, it can be seen that the soldiers, judging by the headdress in the form of a sleeve, are Turkish Janissaries, and they also seem to have guns on their shoulders, so this is not the 10th century.
                1. +1
                  20 June 2018 15: 56
                  Quote: Bar1
                  if you look closely, the soldiers judging by the headdress in the form of a sleeve are Turkish janissaries

                  If you look closely, you can see that these are sultans with helmets - and the Janissary hats are completely different in shape!
                  1. 0
                    20 June 2018 16: 25
                    Quote: Weyland
                    Quote: Bar1
                    if you look closely, the soldiers judging by the headdress in the form of a sleeve are Turkish janissaries

                    If you look closely, you can see that these are sultans with helmets - and the Janissary hats are completely different in shape!


                    here are the Janissaries and their hats in the form of a sleeve.

            2. +2
              20 June 2018 15: 52
              Quote: Bar1
              nnda surprisingly, there are canonical bans in Islam, do not drink wine, do not eat pork, do not portray people and animals, and there is much more. It is with this that a person who wants to become an Orthodox Muslim becomes one. And if a person grossly violates the prohibitions, because drawing and depicting people and animals is the privilege of Allah alone, then such a person cannot be considered a Muslim.

              it’s amazing how peremptorily judges a person who unsubscribed a day ago in a nearby branch: "I am not a Muslim and not a Christian, and not a Jew and not voodoo, I’m sanity and realist, freelance artist and researcher " wassat
              1. 0
                20 June 2018 15: 57
                Quote: Weyland
                it’s amazing how peremptorily judges a person who unsubscribed a day ago in a nearby branch: “I am not a Muslim and not a Christian, and not a Jew and I will not voodoo, I am sanity and realist, a free artist and researcher”


                and what's funny?
                1. +7
                  20 June 2018 16: 48
                  This is not funny, but sad. You are demonstrating blatant
                  illiteracy in history. They are trying to point this out to you.
                  But you continue to pour ridiculous "revelatory" posts ... sad
                  Although expose only their ignorance.
                  1. 0
                    20 June 2018 16: 49
                    Quote: voyaka uh
                    This is not funny, but sad. You are demonstrating blatant
                    illiteracy in history. They are trying to point this out to you.
                    But you continue to pour ridiculous "revelatory" posts ... sad
                    Although expose only their ignorance.


                    can you prove anything but common words?
          2. +4
            20 June 2018 13: 57
            Quote: Curious
            If you want to study the matter in more detail, I recommend the eighteen-volume Al-Ascalani A. Fatah al-bari bi sharh sahih al-bukhari

            laughing Ukrainian Victor was making a man under an Asian name! Bravo! good drinks
            1. +3
              20 June 2018 14: 12
              I will tell you honestly, there was no goal to give anyone. I simply cited one of the sources on which I based my answer.
              And the fact that a person’s name Timur does not mean that he is competent.
              Can you name among your acquaintances with Orthodox names those who will list all the canonical and at least five apocryphal Gospels and their fundamental difference from memory?
              1. +2
                20 June 2018 14: 28
                Quote: Curious
                And the fact that a person’s name Timur does not mean that he is competent.

                That's not the point at all, Victor! A person will be able to prove something, if he will rely on knowledge of the subject and materials confirming this knowledge, you have cited the work of the great Ibn Hajar in confirmation of your words and this essentially solved this dispute!
            2. -1
              20 June 2018 14: 27
              Quote: Serg65
              Quote: Curious
              If you want to study the matter in more detail, I recommend the eighteen-volume Al-Ascalani A. Fatah al-bari bi sharh sahih al-bukhari

              laughing Ukrainian Victor was making a man under an Asian name! Bravo! good drinks

              another laughter rolled up ...
            3. +1
              20 June 2018 15: 57
              Quote: Serg65
              did a man under an Asian name!

              This man under an Asian name wassat a day ago I wrote in a neighboring branch; "I am not a Muslim and not a Christian, and not a Jew and not voodoo, I’m sanity and realist, freelance artist and researcher "
        2. +1
          20 June 2018 15: 49
          Quote: Bar1
          How do medieval Iranian images and Islamic prohibitions portray people and animals?

          for Shiites, this prohibition for some reason is not respected
          1. 0
            20 June 2018 15: 51
            Quote: Weyland
            Quote: Bar1
            How do medieval Iranian images and Islamic prohibitions portray people and animals?

            for Shiites, this prohibition for some reason is not respected


            How to prove it?
            1. +3
              20 June 2018 20: 31
              Quote: Bar1
              How to prove it?

              at least the very fact of the existence of these thumbnails (and from dofig - google to help!)
              1. 0
                20 June 2018 20: 45
                Quote: Weyland
                Quote: Bar1
                How to prove it?

                at least the very fact of the existence of these thumbnails (and from dofig - google to help!)


                Americans shoot whole films about multtown and what is the proof of reality? You are not a serious person, drink the blood of Christ, watch football and you will be happy.
      2. 0
        25 June 2018 14: 58
        Gerasimov gave a detailed description of the skull, and it does not fit into the Mongoloid race, it is a typical white human skull.
    7. 0
      20 June 2018 15: 40
      Quote: VlR
      On the reconstruction of Gerasimov - a typical Mongolian.
      The portrait of a contemporary - a typical Caucasoid.

      Put portraits nearby! The only difference is the shape of the eyes, mustache and beard - the oval of the face. cheekbones, nose shape are almost identical! But the shape of the eyes to reconstruct the skull is difficult!
      Quote: VlR
      real, purebred, Uzbeks - fair-haired and blue-eyed. They are few, but they exist.

      Uzbeks - a rare "hodgepodge" of 16tand (!) haplotypes and all three big races!
      1. +3
        20 June 2018 16: 04
        Quote: Weyland
        But the shape of the eyes to recreate the skull is difficult!

        Gerasimov has such a technique, scientifically confirmed.
        The refined edges of the orbits, their size, roundness, strong protrusion of the lower edge of the orbit and the wide interorbital distance determine the Mongoloid structure of the eyes, underlined by their somewhat oblique incision. However, a significant protrusion of the root of the nose and the relief of the middle part of the eyebrows indicate that the Mongolian fold of the century proper is relatively weak.
        Gerasimov M.M. Portrait of Tamerlan (Experience of sculptural reproduction on the craniological basis) // Brief reports of the Institute for the History of Material Culture. 1947. Issue XVII. C. 14 — 21.
        This, in fact, about the very portrait of Tamerlane. hi
  4. +3
    20 June 2018 08: 17
    Good. Many things, like the Hafiz joke, are popular.

    And think, when in each city you try the pilaf option - who is its inventor.
  5. +1
    20 June 2018 08: 30
    For which I always respected Tamerlane that, being at the zenith of power, he did not attack Russia! But he could!
    1. +3
      20 June 2018 10: 26
      How did you not attack? And the Elets destroyed by him in 1395?
      But fortunately, our ancestors acted wisely. They did not enter into a deliberately losing war with him, but acted (according to the chronicles) much easier and more efficiently: they brought the icon of the Mother of God from Vladimir to Moscow, after which Tamerlan was afraid and shamefully fled. Russia was saved. In Moscow, there is still Sretenka Street and Sretensky Monastery dedicated to this event.
      1. +1
        20 June 2018 10: 36
        "That's what the life-giving cross does!" smile
      2. VLR
        +1
        20 June 2018 10: 48
        In the second part, two versions of these events:
        1. Chronicle
        2. Leref ad-Din and Nizam ad-Din
      3. 0
        20 June 2018 11: 03
        Right. And the monastery is good. And the columns in it. And the choir. At one time, when I was near, I liked to go in.
      4. VLR
        +1
        20 June 2018 11: 29
        By the way, I had a little fantasy in 2014, and issued the third version in the book "Three Worlds of Solitude":
        "- Why is he lame now?
        “After your first meeting, he was wounded in Sistan - by two arrows in a battle with the Turkmen, and now he is suffering severely from the consequences of this injury. In twenty years, he will order the shooting of the ruler Seistan taken from the bows. Not the most cruel retribution for their many years of torment, is it? But isn't it too often that you help Him? Let's leave him for thirty years and see what he can achieve in that time. Look, here it is already on the bank of the Sosna River, a tributary of the Don. Do you want to talk to him?
        “You think ambition drives me, Calloin?” Nonsense, - handing him a new bowl with koumiss, Tamerlane said, - What kind of khan am I? Khan sits in a different yurt. On his behalf, I draw up my decrees and mint coins. He does not bother me. Let him enjoy the honor and live in his pleasure. And I never have enough time to reign, and I am forced to work in favor of my subjects ... But tell me, Calloin, is it fair that only people living in Khorezm, Khorasanna and in our other provinces, the only ones in this world, enjoy the benefits my board? Would not the greatest happiness for all the rest be the right to become equal and free citizens of my great empire?
        “So you consider yourself an ideal ruler, and you want as many people as possible to be happy under your personal guidance?” - Calloin grinned, - It remains only to make others believe this.
        - believe it. Because there is nothing more convincing than force. I am not cruel, but in order to break the will to unnecessary and useless resistance, I order the construction of pyramids of human heads. These skulls are still dead anyway. But when they are piled up in large piles, the hot heads of living people are very well cooled. Sometimes I order to destroy cities, but then I restore them myself. Not everyone understands this. Khan Tokhtamysh was like a son to me, he received power from my hands. But he betrayed me. And not only me, Calloin. He deceived his people. The warriors of his armies were countless as raindrops. Now he does not have hundreds of nukers. I destroyed his cities and led the people to Maverannahr. The Golden Horde will no longer be a great state. Yes, I understand that the terms of my life are limited, and I will not have time to conquer the whole world. This small and poor Russian town was taken by me by mistake. Soon I will soon leave this place: I cannot waste my time on Christians when many thousands of faithful expect help from me, suffering from the cruelty and injustice of their kings and sultans.
        - Well, how do you like this program, Calloin? - grinned standing on the shore of Hoogley Kali.
        “I’m confused, my Lady,” the magician bowed his head.
        - Is it possible to kill a thousand people for the happiness of a hundred thousand? What percentage of victims can be considered acceptable and not critical?
        Calloin was silent.
        - In the end, the wood is chopped - the chips are flying, and without breaking eggs, you will not fry scrambled eggs. Is not it? Let's see what will happen next?"
        If someone is going on vacation and wants to read something on the way, here you can download the fb-2 file for free:
        http://readli.net/tri-mira-odinochestva-2/
        Incidentally, this is a variant of the text that Irina Konstantinovna Tyurikova edited a little (purely in literary terms - recommendations on style): she was quite well-known expert in “What, Where, When”, and then one of the editors of the program “Own Game” on NTV.
        This is not really a fairy tale. and maybe not a fairy tale at all :)
      5. +1
        20 June 2018 15: 59
        Quote: alebor
        How did you not attack? And the Elets destroyed by him in 1395?

        Yelets at that time was inhabited by Russians, but was part of the Golden Horde (it was under it direct management, not in vassal dependencies, as the bulk of the Russian principalities)
  6. +2
    20 June 2018 08: 31
    Thanks for the interesting article. Historians somehow do not pay much attention to internal affairs in the emirate of Timur Leng, all of them are confined by pyramids of heads and walls made of people. But to find out what Timur did for the well-being of his subjects is great) It is a pity that such smart and capable rulers usually have completely worthless offspring.
  7. +1
    20 June 2018 08: 37
    "real, purebred, Uzbeks - fair-haired and blue-eyed"

    And there is nothing surprising here. Initially, the population traced in those parts is Scythian, that is, Indo-Iranian, Indo-European. Who lived there before the Turks? Massageti. The people of the Iranian group, relatives of the Scythians. Cyrus the Great, the founder of the Persian empire, died in the battle with them. And not only to the Uzbeks, this applies. The same Tajiks are also originally a people of a quite Caucasian appearance. It was then that the waves of Turkic-Mongols went through Central Asia, changing its ethnic structure. And not only there. In my Khakassia, Khakasses with red hair and blue eyes are still sometimes born. Descendants of the Dinlin, the oldest written population of Khakassia. There were also quite Caucasoid Scythians.
  8. +3
    20 June 2018 09: 08
    Auto RU. Dear Valery, I publicly apologize for the harsh and incorrect reply to you in the comments under the previous article. The Tamerlane article is great!
    1. VLR
      +2
      20 June 2018 10: 42
      Yeah, well, that you. Glad you like it. This part of the article is about Timur’s personality. In the second part - a story about his life, campaigns, victories and failures (also were) and death.
  9. +9
    20 June 2018 12: 19
    Article plus author respect. good
    I want to note once again (this has already been said more than once) that the Turks are not a race, but a linguistic community. Turks can be both representatives of the Caucasoid and Mongoloid, and, theoretically, and Negroid. smile
    Now a warning. Everything written below is intended for people who are not affected by conspiracy theories about everything and everyone against Russian history, so I urge Novohronlozhtsev and other fans of pseudohistory not to waste time and immediately begin their immediate duty - to spread the miasms of their theories wherever possible.
    So.
    As for Tamerlan’s appearance, I tend to trust Gerasimov precisely.
    Firstly, his methodology was repeatedly tested by criminologists, successfully used in investigating crimes - the relatives of the missing persons perfectly identified their relatives by reconstructions using the Gerasimov method.
    Secondly, Gerasimov worked directly with the remains of Tamerlane, which have survived and can always be re-examined, but in order to distinguish the skull of the Mongoloid from the European skull, it is not necessary to be Gerasimov. In short, the error is excluded, it remains only to reproach an authoritative scientist for intentional forgery, which seems incredible, since such a forgery is just revealed - it is enough to repeat the study. To risk his reputation as a scientist for the sake of a ridiculous hoax - a normal person wouldn’t do that. And, most importantly, why? Give me at least one intelligible reason why a world-renowned Soviet scientist might want to resort to such a mystification, or the reason why the Communist Party could give him such an order.
    The only objection of Tamerlane’s Europeans supporters that should be considered is that Tamerlane’s grave was not Tamerlane’s, that is, you can try to challenge the authenticity of the remains themselves, but not the racial identity of their host.
    Third, the images of Tamerlane that have come down to us are not made by contemporaries. In addition, there are so many of them and they differ so much among themselves that it is not possible to choose any one as true. We simply cannot clearly substantiate such a choice, except by our own intuition. If we had reliable information that at least one of the authors of the images of Tamerlane (made mostly in Europe or in India, where Tamerlane had never been) could see him personally, but just at least make a reasonable assumption - where and when he could see in person, one could at least talk about possible portrait similarity. Plus, it is absolutely obvious that all these images were made by the authors "in their own image and likeness", including clothing items, so they cannot inspire any trust.
    Interesting material on this topic can be found here. https://www.kitabhona.org.ua/lib_hist/gerasimovta
    merlan.html
    1. 0
      20 June 2018 15: 14
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Now a warning. Everything written below is intended for people not affected by the conspiracy theory of everyone and everything against Russian history, t


      what impudence, a forum is a place where people exchange opinions and by no means according to your rules.
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Article plus author respect. good
      I want to note once again (this has already been said more than once) that the Turks are not a race, but a linguistic community. Turks can be both representatives of the Caucasoid and Mongoloid, and, theoretically, and Negroid. smile
      Now a warning. Everything written below is intended for people who are not affected by conspiracy theories about everything and everyone against Russian history, so I urge Novohronlozhtsev and other fans of pseudohistory not to waste time and immediately begin their immediate duty - to spread the miasms of their theories wherever possible.
      So.
      As for Tamerlan’s appearance, I tend to trust Gerasimov precisely.
      Firstly, his methodology was repeatedly tested by criminologists, successfully used in investigating crimes - the relatives of the missing persons perfectly identified their relatives by reconstructions using the Gerasimov method.
      Secondly, Gerasimov worked directly with the remains of Tamerlane, which have survived and can always be re-examined, but in order to distinguish the skull of the Mongoloid from the European skull, it is not necessary to be Gerasimov. In short, the error is excluded, it remains only to reproach an authoritative scientist for intentional forgery, which seems incredible, since such a forgery is just revealed - it is enough to repeat the study. To risk his reputation as a scientist for the sake of a ridiculous hoax - a normal person wouldn’t do that. And, most importantly, why? Give me at least one intelligible reason why a world-renowned Soviet scientist might want to resort to such a mystification, or the reason why the Communist Party could give him such an order.
      The only objection of Tamerlane’s Europeans supporters that should be considered is that Tamerlane’s grave was not Tamerlane’s, that is, you can try to challenge the authenticity of the remains themselves, but not the racial identity of their host.
      Third, the images of Tamerlane that have come down to us are not made by contemporaries. In addition, there are so many of them and they differ so much among themselves that it is not possible to choose any one as true. We simply cannot clearly substantiate such a choice, except by our own intuition. If we had reliable information that at least one of the authors of the images of Tamerlane (made mostly in Europe or in India, where Tamerlane had never been) could see him personally, but just at least make a reasonable assumption - where and when he could see in person, one could at least talk about possible portrait similarity. Plus, it is absolutely obvious that all these images were made by the authors "in their own image and likeness", including clothing items, so they cannot inspire any trust.
      Interesting material on this topic can be found here. https://www.kitabhona.org.ua/lib_hist/gerasimovta
      merlan.html


      But why did the Orgy tribes, skin, and others. The Bolsheviks name the Kazakhs? Or if they were actually Cossacks, then why did the Cossack hordes replace Kazakh zhuzes (hundreds), what is it?
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Thirdly, the images of Tamerlane that have come down to us were not made by contemporaries. In addition, there are so many of them and they are so different from each other that it is not possible to choose one as true.


      it’s not so, those images that I brought from three different sources, but in general, everything looks like.
      1. +3
        20 June 2018 16: 51
        Quote: Bar1
        what a cheek

        As always, my calls were not heard ... recourse
        Quote: Bar1
        But why did the tribes Orgins, leather, and others. The Bolsheviks gave the name of the Kazakhs?

        Let me explain, if you explain to me by the laws of nature, the sun revolves around the earth. Hint: in fact, the Earth revolves around the sun.
        Quote: Bar1
        by and large everything looks like

        And these people blame the humanities in the absence of accuracy ...
        By the way, since I once again got involved in a picking, I note that today in your opuses I saw a kind of common sense, expressed, however, so floridly that you can not see it immediately. I mean your comment about the Slavs and
        ONE PEOPLE

        The fact is that, voluntarily or unwittingly, you guessed it - a few thousand years ago, the progenitor of all modern European and some Asian nations really existed on our planet. Over time, these peoples were divided and estranged from each other, someone earlier, someone later, therefore their representatives are similar to each other in varying degrees.
        Now you just have to learn that all of them are Slavs, Germans, Iranians, Italians, Armenians, Balts, etc. EQUALLY not similar to their ancestors and their language will be EQUALLY incomprehensible to all their descendants, although common to all the roots in modern languages ​​remain and can even be identified than brazenly, shamelessly, completely arbitrarily and illiterately using your guru and you, your adherents of the same teaches
        1. 0
          20 June 2018 17: 00
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Let me explain, if you explain to me by the laws of nature, the sun revolves around the earth. Hint: in fact, the Earth revolves around the sun.


          how mysterious is your space-historical specialization? Maybe you will not show off and so tell?

          Quote: Trilobite Master
          The fact is that you guessed voluntarily or involuntarily - several millennia ago on our planet there really existed a progenitor people of all modern European and some Asian peoples


          no, it wasn’t. There was no one progenitor people. There were different races initially, white, Semitic, yellow and black. These races did not have one root, they are too different. But now everything is going to ensure that there will no longer be different races and will be one.
          1. +3
            20 June 2018 17: 09
            Quote: Bar1
            Maybe you will not show off and so tell?

            Explained especially for you: the Bolsheviks did not assign the name "Kazakhs" to anyone, since this name already existed long before the formation of the RSDLP. And to explain why they did it is as difficult as explaining why the sun revolves around the earth. So clearer?
            1. 0
              20 June 2018 17: 13
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              Quote: Bar1
              Maybe you will not show off and so tell?

              Explained especially for you: the Bolsheviks did not assign the name "Kazakhs" to anyone, since this name already existed long before the formation of the RSDLP. And to explain why they did it is as difficult as explaining why the sun revolves around the earth. So clearer?


              the fact that all these Kazakh tribes called themselves Cossacks, is known to all, but not all of them naturally, but in order to hide the COSSACK HORDS in the steppes of Kazakhstan and called the Mongoloids Cossacks / Kazakhs. there were, as there were no Circassians, but there were Circassians, the Mongols in Latvia became semigals, etc.
              My ancestors are Cossacks from Lake Borovoe in Kazakhstan.
              1. +4
                20 June 2018 17: 51
                Quote: Bar1
                to hide the Cossack Hordes in the steppes of Kazakhstan

                I'm sick of reading this, frankly. Complete nonsense.
                In fact, the Cossacks - the descendants of the ancient Amazons, from the Turkic "kyzy" - the daughter. So suit you? Or maybe from the word "goat", since in prehistoric times they fought on goats before the horses were tamed? Or because before the battle, they showed their male power to the opponents - did they show? And now you can hear: I supposedly show you ... wassat
                Ask, finally, the etymology of the word "Cossack". Only not at Fomenko. Or for you the "New Chronology" as a bible in the Middle Ages - the only source of knowledge?
                1. 0
                  20 June 2018 18: 40
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  Tired of me, frankly, reading this. Complete nonsense

                  you seemed to close your eyes, plug your ears and wave your hands - "... this cannot be"
                  here, please, the map of Remezov is the beginning of the 18th century. I can still find it, no problem. The land of the Cossack Horde.

                  1. +3
                    20 June 2018 19: 48
                    Quote: Bar1
                    here is please map Remezov

                    The map is good. The main thing is to be accurate. Are you interested in etymology? Any success?
                    1. 0
                      20 June 2018 20: 01
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      Quote: Bar1
                      here is please map Remezov

                      The map is good. The main thing is to be accurate. Are you interested in etymology? Any success?

                      you say please, but don’t be silent, the Cossack is a Turkish dodger, and so what? Cossacks spoke Tatar and Russian, and so on, everything is fine.
                      1. +2
                        20 June 2018 23: 25
                        As for the card, we have already discussed it. Maps were drawn from stories, often from third lips. The degree of their reliability is absolutely low, except for those that the cartographer drew from his own impressions. The same cards Remezov strikingly differ from one another. Those that he did himself much more reliable and accurate, but just they do not have any information about the Tartars and the Cossack hordes. That map that you brought is generally copied from European maps and half, if not more, of what is depicted on it is fantasy. You can easily verify this by comparing them with modern ones.
                        As for the Cossacks, if you for a moment get rid of the teachings of Fomenko, then it will become completely obvious to you that Cossack, Kaisak, Kazakh is a Türkic-speaking word for a man-rider, a nomad-herder, and, therefore, can be a generalized concept of the type "man" both within one Turkic-speaking tribe, and within the whole region inhabited by nomadic Turkic-speaking tribes.
                        The Russian Cossacks, most likely the heirs of wanderers, still wandering in the 13th century. in the lower reaches of the Don, the Dnieper. In fact - fishermen, vagrants, robbers. It was the Mongols, Subedei and Berke, who were sent to the camp by the Russian ambassadors before the battle on Kalka. It was their princes who were executed as not meeting the ambassadorial status. As a result, these Cossacks turned out to be “Cossacks”, of whom there had never been so much to claim more than petty raids, robbery, and later - border guards in the service of the Russian Tsar. The only exception is the campaigns of Yermak, well, so it is an exception. There are too many stars in one place.
                        So your "Cossack Horde" is nothing more than a direct and not very successful translation into Latin of an inscription from a European map.
        2. +1
          21 June 2018 13: 04
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          their language will be SAME incomprehensible to all their descendants

          not quite so: they have changed languages ​​more, others - weaker. The closest to the source is Lithuanian (although even without a translator they are unlikely to understand Indo-European).
          1. +1
            21 June 2018 14: 20
            Quote: Weyland
            Closest to the source - Lithuanian

            I do not remember from whom, but I heard this hypothesis. Then she did not seem convincing to me. As far as I remember, the main argument for this hypothesis was that the Lithuanians in their swamps had been isolated for a long time, not in contact with their neighbors, and, as a result, were "preserved." In the light of recent scientific research, it seems to me that this theory is no longer relevant. The Balts and Slavs were divided about 2000 years ago, if I am not mistaken, and before that they were one people, one language. A common Indo-European proto-language existed about 10000 years ago. Over the years of 1000 written history, Russian has changed so much that it is impossible to understand it for a modern Russian person without special training.
            But even if we take for granted the two thousand years of isolation of the Lithuanian language, which of course did not exist, it seems to me reckless to draw such substantial conclusions on this foundation. We can only theoretically reconstruct the ancient parent language of Indo-Europeans, and then only fragmentary and without guarantee of any certainty. So to speak about the "proximity" or "remoteness" of any language from the "progenitor" is not necessary. It is considered to be all equidistant. hi
            By the way, I personally liked the hypothesis that the closest to the proto-language is Roma, because Roma have lived in their societies for centuries and their lifestyles have not changed for thousands of years - everyone wanders in their tents around the world , not merging with anyone, keeping their originality and individuality smile in short, true aryas that have carried themselves without change through the millennia. smile
            1. 0
              21 June 2018 17: 40
              In nature, there is no common Indo-European language except one single - Sanskrit, the language of the Aryans.

              The languages ​​closest to Sanskrit are Slavic and Hindi, directly descended from Sanskrit and which are its dialects.

              All other Sanskrit-based languages ​​are hybrids:
              Romance and Germanic - based on mixing with the Basque language;
              Scandinavian - based on mixing with the Illyrian language;
              Farsi - based on mixing with the Nakh language;
              Lithuanian and Latvian - based on mixing with the Finnish language;
              Greek - based on mixing with the Berber language.
              1. +1
                21 June 2018 18: 10
                Quote: Operator
                The languages ​​closest to Sanskrit are Slavic and Hindi, which are directly descended from Sanskrit, in fact, its dialects.

                I would agree with you if you wrote "Proto-Slavonic" or "Proto-Slavic."
                I deliberately tried not to use the term "Aryan" and "Sanskrit", it seems to me in this context is incorrect, because the Aryans represent, in my understanding, only part of the ancient Indo-Europeans, and Sanskrit exists and is used, and therefore changes to this day.
                That is, I want to say that having divided thousands of years ago into different branches, conditionally Indo-Iranian and European (do not carp at terms, call them what you want smile ), this language, or, more precisely, the parent language, ceased to exist in the form in which it existed. He disappeared, died, as a man dies, leaving behind him an offspring, at the same time similar to him and different.
                There is no way to restore this language. Compare which of the modern languages ​​is more like it - too. And considering the speed of change of languages ​​(take, at least, Russian), this is not only hopeless, but also useless - even if there is a textbook on this very language in common with modern languages ​​- by all! - it will be so small that it simply does not make sense to compare these infinitely small values.
                1. 0
                  21 June 2018 22: 17
                  This is if you look for a spherical horse instead of the only Europeans who migrated to India - the Aryans.

                  3500 years ago, the inventors of war chariots, the Rigvedian arias, conquered the Hindustan Peninsula, the Avestan ones - the Iranian Highlands, the Mitannian ones - the Anatolian Peninsula, the Cimmerian - Western Europe.

                  After which the "Indo-European language" arose "suddenly" bully
  10. 0
    20 June 2018 14: 59
    Serg65,
    yes gunof no
  11. 0
    20 June 2018 15: 42
    Humpty,
    and how many mongolof in semirechye?
    1. 0
      20 June 2018 16: 07
      For the northern Semirechye I will not say, in the southern order of 30 thousand, maybe more, but not less. He saw 3 Mongolian cemeteries himself, two in the Tien Shan, one in Badakhshan, around the 18th century. There are many Mongolian names - Jumgol, Boom, Botvey, Naryn.
      1. 0
        20 June 2018 16: 31
        Quote: Humpty
        There are many Mongolian names - Jumgol, Boom, Botvey, Naryn.


        Naryn is Russian-UZKY
        the root of the NAR has many branches and different meanings.
        -Naryn-river upper Syr Darya
        -Naryn-kala-fortress Derbent
        Narva-fortress in Estonia
        -Naryan-Mar-city in the north
        -Narval-dolphin with a tusk.
        - Narrow-anglitskoe word meaning _uzky_.
        -Norway-such a country
        -Nary is shkonki
        The galleries are narrow sleighs
        What unites them all?

        We will deal with etymology


        http://chronologia.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mes
        g & forum = 269 & topic_id = 2916 & mesg_id = 349
        5 & page =
        1. +3
          20 June 2018 17: 02
          Quote: Bar1
          -Naryn-river upper Syr Darya
          -Naryn-kala-fortress Derbent
          Narva-fortress in Estonia
          -Naryan-Mar-city in the north
          -Narval-dolphin with a tusk.
          - Narrow-anglitskoe word meaning _uzky_.
          -Norway-such a country
          -Nary is shkonki
          The galleries are narrow sleighs
          What unites them all?

          Here again they laugh ...
          Forgot about the people and the drug - what unites them? I suppose - pigman with a fair. smile Scream ...
          1. 0
            20 June 2018 17: 06
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Quote: Bar1
            -Naryn-river upper Syr Darya
            -Naryn-kala-fortress Derbent
            Narva-fortress in Estonia
            -Naryan-Mar-city in the north
            -Narval-dolphin with a tusk.
            - Narrow-anglitskoe word meaning _uzky_.
            -Norway-such a country
            -Nary is shkonki
            The galleries are narrow sleighs
            What unites them all?

            Here again they laugh ...
            Forgot about the people and the drug - what unites them? I suppose - pigman with a fair. smile Scream ...


            -the people is Rod-born
            -drug is from the Greek, then from the French word
            It comes from the ancient Greek ναρκωτικός "paralyzing, causing numbness", from νάρκη "numbness, numbness, paralysis". In a number of European languages, the word is borrowed through Wed-lat. narcoticum. Russian drug - from the beginning of the XNUMXth century, borrowings. from french narcotique.
            Etymology of the word drug


            so you messed up everything.
            And in my list, everything is logical.
            1. +3
              20 June 2018 17: 59
              Quote: Bar1
              And in my list, everything is logical.
              laughing
              Sacrificed ... And in my, it means no. And the pig trap with FONAR is not an argument ... Oh, our sins are serious ... It’s really real to me that it seems that the Czarolozhtsy just scoff at people, and on the sly themselves giggle and excel in their fantasies further. But look, no, seriously, they say. So you think - is this a new crony sect or is it a diagnosis?
              1. 0
                20 June 2018 19: 36
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                But in mine, then no. And a pig with a lantern is not an argument.


                -wink is a very narrow object in your understanding of course ...
        2. 0
          20 June 2018 17: 22
          Quote: Bar1
          this is Russian-NARROW

          You are interested in arguing or proving in some way the absence of the Mongols in Semirechye about the origin of the words, though I don’t understand what it is for.
          Then about the Turkic words, please - the stove, glasses, kakpan, carburatyr, brake, kurpuch, adam, privatization. In the word Kremlin, some guess - Kurum. I know another word - Tomur.
  12. +1
    20 June 2018 16: 22
    As for pilaf.
    The cuisine of peoples is formed in accordance with the way of life and the surrounding nature.
    For example, in Asia they eat almost everything. This is due to poor wildlife and a small amount of land suitable for cultivation. Perhaps the humidity and difficulty in extracting dry wood caused them to have such a kitchen where everything is fried very quickly and consumed half-baked.
    Nomads had abundant meat and the easiest way to cook it was to fry it well. You can of course eat felted and dried and smoked, but fried tastier.
    Then they began to add various other products to increase nutrition and taste, and as a result, pilaf was invented empirically.
    No wonder his number of recipes exceeds one hundred. But, nevertheless, I dare to say that pilaf in Ferghana is a classic ..)
    And I cook pilaf the only way.
    1. 0
      20 June 2018 16: 36
      Quote: Razvedka_Boem
      Nomads had abundant meat and the easiest way to cook it was to fry it well. You can of course eat felted and dried and smoked, but fried tastier.
      Then they began to add various other products to increase nutrition and taste, and as a result, pilaf was invented empirically.



      Polovtsy pl., Turk. nationality in the south of Russia, in Moldova, Wallachia (1055-1235), later pushed aside by the Tatar-Mongols in Hungary; in any case, connected with dr. sex "light yellow"; Wed Sobolevsky, RFV 64, 170 et seq .; ZhMNP, 1886, Sept., p. 154; Ponomarev-Gordlevsky, OLYA 6, 321 (which come from the meaning “blue”), Kunik-Rasovsky, Semin. Kondak. 7, 252 and the following; Convert II, 94 and words From other Russian. half of the plural (Pov. Time years) occurs Hungarian. raloszok “Polovtsy” (Bukhan, Liber Semisaes. 60). Wed also coumarin.

      The origin of the word Polovtsy in the etymological online dictionary of Fasmer M.

      Max says that
      -Floors -light yellow, then why the word _Plov_

      -Pilaf rice and meat platter

      It comes from the Persian پلو "پلو, pilaf", further from Hind. पुलाव (pulāu), further from Skt. पुलाक (pulāka) "boiled rice." In Russian and a number of other languages, the word is borrowed through Turkic



      Persian, not Russian?
      1. +1
        20 June 2018 16: 57
        The origin of the word Polovtsy in the etymological online dictionary of Fasmer M.
        Max says that
        -Floors -light yellow, then why the word _Plov_
        -Pilaf rice and meat platter

        How do you like to copy everything from the Internet ..
        It turns out that the Polovtsy are lovers of cooked rice? ..)
        "Live your mind, Bee .." - White from the "Brigade".
        Nobody will tell you the exact origin of the word pilaf.
        I like the version given in the book by Mahmud Karimov - Plovs for every taste. Read.
        1. 0
          20 June 2018 19: 42
          Quote: Razvedka_Boem
          The origin of the word Polovtsy in the etymological online dictionary of Fasmer M.
          Max says that
          -Floors -light yellow, then why the word _Plov_
          -Pilaf rice and meat platter

          How do you like to copy everything from the Internet ..
          It turns out that the Polovtsy are lovers of cooked rice? ..)
          "Live your mind, Bee .." - White from the "Brigade".
          Nobody will tell you the exact origin of the word pilaf.
          I like the version given in the book by Mahmud Karimov - Plovs for every taste. Read.


          these are my thoughts ...
      2. 0
        20 June 2018 17: 25
        According to Turkic pilaf - ash, osh, ace.
        1. 0
          20 June 2018 17: 37
          Quote: Humpty
          According to Turkic pilaf - ash, osh, ace.

          Grub, in short wink
        2. 0
          20 June 2018 19: 41
          Quote: Humpty
          According to Turkic pilaf - ash, osh, ace.

          is it in what Turkic? all our Turks are Uzbeks, Kyrgyz, Tatars .so they say-pilaf / palov
          1. +1
            21 June 2018 04: 47
            They say - OSH.
            And the word “fells” is used in relation to blues for which zirvak is prepared - the basis of pilaf, but another product was added instead of rice, for example buckwheat or crackers. Then they call it that - non-palov, buckwheat, etc.
            1. 0
              21 June 2018 08: 17
              Quote: Razvedka_Boem
              They say - OSH.
              And the word “fells” is used in relation to blues for which zirvak is prepared - the basis of pilaf, but another product was added instead of rice, for example buckwheat or crackers. Then they call it that - non-palov, buckwheat, etc.


              I myself am from Frunze and I know how the Kirghiz say pilaf, they say so. You can take any translator, the same thing.
              1. +1
                21 June 2018 12: 45
                And I live in Uzbekistan. And we are called as I answered you.
                1. 0
                  21 June 2018 12: 53
                  Quote: Razvedka_Boem
                  And I live in Uzbekistan. And we are called as I answered you.


                  1. +1
                    21 June 2018 13: 20
                    Hmm .. Hard case ..
                    Once again, in Russian I tell you - We say "osh".
                    Google translator is not the ultimate truth.
                    1. 0
                      21 June 2018 13: 58
                      Quote: Razvedka_Boem
                      Hmm .. Hard case ..
                      Once again, in Russian I tell you - We say "osh".
                      Google translator is not the ultimate truth.


                      I do not believe you, attach the dictionary ...
  13. +3
    20 June 2018 18: 57
    Bar1,
    Have you seen many Mongols in your life? strong guys
    1024 wrestlers fight annually - everyone in the photo did not fit
    1. 0
      21 June 2018 08: 15
      Quote: Tlauicol
      Bar1,
      Have you seen many Mongols in your life? strong guys
      1024 wrestlers fight annually - everyone in the photo did not fit


      how would they fit in if they are not?
  14. +2
    20 June 2018 19: 24

    Helavisa - Doors of Tamerlane
    1. VLR
      +1
      20 June 2018 21: 23
      About Helavis: When I heard for the first time the "Love Duet" and "Isis Under the Cover" from "The Last Test," I just could not understand why these things do not run all the time on TV and radio. Probably cool - in the world is better than ours :)
      1. 0
        20 June 2018 21: 47
        "Do not remove series about them
        They’re not in channel format. "
        "Tractor drivers" (I. Rasteryaev)
  15. +3
    20 June 2018 20: 36
    The native inhabitants of the Anatolian Peninsula, the Iranian Highlands and Central Asia are the northern Semites - the carriers of the haplogroup J2. To date, purebred northern Semites have survived only in Chechnya and Ingushetia, where they speak their native Nakh language.

    In the remaining regions of their original residence, the descendants of the northern Semites still make up the majority, but they are assimilated culturally, linguistically and racially by the alien conquerors:
    - Europoid Aryans (Iranian Highlands, 3,5 thousands of years ago);
    - successively by Europoid Aryans and Mongoloid Turks (Central Asia and the Anatolian Peninsula, 3,5 thousands of years ago and 1,5 thousands of years ago).

    Tamerlan, born in Central Asia 680 years ago, was certainly a Turkic-speaking Mongoloid.
    1. 0
      21 June 2018 08: 13
      Quote: Operator
      Tamerlan, born in Central Asia 680 years ago, was certainly a Turkic-speaking Mongoloid.



      in the foreseeable past, say 200 years ago, not a single outstanding Mongoloid commander has been observed, even the famous Janissaries and Slavs.
      1. 0
        21 June 2018 17: 45
        Not surprisingly, the Russians, starting from Ivan IV, qualitatively cleaned the Türks (in response, of course).
        1. 0
          21 June 2018 18: 10
          Quote: Operator
          Not surprisingly, the Russians, starting from Ivan IV, qualitatively cleaned the Türks (in response, of course).

          no, not for that, because the Mongol generals in reality simply have no where to come from, only on paper.
          1. 0
            24 June 2018 15: 22
            ... the Mongoloids - the Chinese ... now think - why did Lenin come up with the Mongols at all ..
  16. +1
    21 June 2018 04: 40
    Timur from childhood loved the Turkic states and their stories, he carefully listened to the stories of the great Turkic empires and stories about them from the elders. He called his empire Turan a real Turk and considered himself a Turk, did not like the Persians with their show-offs. Seyel of the two most powerful Turkic empires, the Ottoman Empire and the Golden Horde, which made a big strategic mistake for all the Turks on earth, together with Bayazid and Tokhtamysh should have taken Paris, Rome and Beijing, and today they would speak the same Turkic language on earth, but Allah had plans others Allah is great, mighty, and merciful.
  17. 0
    21 June 2018 06: 05
    .. the simplest thing is to take Khromtz’s genetic material and compare it with the same Dmitry Donskoy .. The campaign isn’t even worth it to the historians .., or others (Yaroslav or Nevsky) .. But it’s very convenient - you can moo moo * flatten * to infinity - Traditionalists will be like Caesar’s wife - I’m innocent ..
  18. 0
    21 June 2018 08: 08
    Trilobite Master,
    As for the map, we have already discussed this. Maps were drawn from stories, often from third parties. The degree of their reliability is completely low, except for those that the cartographer drew according to his own impressions.


    and how many cards do you discard because the "reliability is low"? Here is a map of 1794 clearly visible in the steppes of Kazakhstan - the Cossack Horde, and in the steppes of Ukraine, where the Cossacks always lived - Tartaria. What kind of clumsy is quiet?



    But Remezov’s cards are very different from one another. Those that he himself did are much more reliable and accurate, but they just do not have any information about the Tartaria and Cossack hordes.


    What are you talking about different cards of Remezov?

    The map that you brought is generally copied from European maps and half, if not more, of what is depicted on it is fantasy. You can easily see this by comparing them with modern ones.


    In general, Remezov himself lived in Siberia, in Tobolsk, in Omsk and was engaged in mapping and fortification and he did not need to rewrite something from European maps, it was rather the other way around.

    therefore, it can be a generalizing concept of the type of “man” as within the framework of one Turkic-speaking tribe


    you do not invent _kazak_ in Turkic - this is a bastard, not a man _Ir, Er, Erkek_ in different Turkic.


    The Russian Cossacks, most likely the heirs of wanderers who roamed back in the XIII century. in the lower reaches of the Don, Dnieper. In fact - anglers, tramps, robbers


    in general, the Cossack army of Bohdan Khmelnytsky repeatedly beat the Polish army - it was completely state and took many Polish cities. There was a lot of talk about it in VO, and you again for the old, Cossacks are robbers. Napoleon said that Cossacks are the best army in the world. . You really have that on the forehead, that on the forehead. This is already senile immunity.
    Cossacks is an army of the state, is armed and supplied at the expense of the state.

    So your "Cossack Horde" is nothing more than a direct and not very successful translation into Latin of an inscription from a European map.


    this is not true.
    1. +1
      21 June 2018 16: 00
      Quote: Bar1
      What are you talking about different cards of Remezov?

      Look here for example. http://clubklad.ru/maps/2567/
      Quote: Bar1
      Here is the 1794g map clearly visible in the steppes of Kazakhstan - the Kazakh Horde, and in the steppes of Ukraine, where the Cossacks have always lived - Tartary.

      Are you exactly the card you want to insert inserted? smile
      I see on it clearly English names. Are not the Anglo-Saxons the worst enemies of the Russian? Do not they all chronicles and chronicles faked?
      On the map itself: what is highlighted in red is actually Kazakhstan. Or do you read the Cossack Horde directly? Disappointing, it is read, most likely, similar to the "Kesaki Horde". I can see the Bashkiria, the Kipchak lands, the Black and Azov Seas, the Crimea (and it is written), in the Kiev region, Ukraine, it is also written directly, Hungaria, I see Poland. And, here, I found - in place of Tavria some sort of slurred inscription. Yeah, right "Tartary".
      We look French map approximately the same time.
      There is! There are Tartary on it! Only ... Petit? What does petit mean? Small? Okay, let's look further ... What's in the south? Crimea and the strange inscription "Etats du Khan de Tartares". The state of Tartar Khan ... What would it mean? Is it the Crimean Tatars? What is in the north? Petit Russi - Small Russia? Ukraine ... Ukraine? And what is east of Ukraine, on the Don? Oh, here they are - Kozake. Cossacks. So what is it - Don Cossacks? And we see Poland, Lithuania, Hungary (Hungaria), Prussia, Livonia and much more.
      So what's this about? It was, therefore, the Big and Small Russia, Ukraine, the Tatar Khanate in the Crimea and the Kuban and the Cossacks on the Don. Somewhere I have already heard it ... And, exactly, in a history class at school ... Only the Tatar khanate in the Crimea was called the Crimean Khanate or the Krymchaks in the class.
      No, boring. No historical discoveries today. The day passes in vain.
      Quote: Bar1
      you do not invent _kazak_ in Türkish - this is a remote, not a man

      They have all the udaltsy - men, and men - udaltsy, riders and shepherds. The concepts are practically synonymous.
      Quote: Bar1
      in general, the Cossack army of Bogdan Khmelnitsky repeatedly beat the Polish army
      What ended there is not forgotten? The essence of the Cossack army - quickly get together, fly and dump, until the otvetka came. It may even take the city, but hold on - do not even think. It is boring to sit in a siege, there is nowhere to show.
      Quote: Bar1
      Napoleon said that the Cossacks are the best army in the world

      "Give me some Cossacks, and I will go with them all of Europe" - do you mean that? If not, then if you please, a reference, which says about the "best army". And if it is, then “I will pass” does not mean at all, “I will win” or “I will conquer”, or that the Cossacks are the best army. The Cossacks in the time of Napoleon were just easy cavalry, their task was reconnaissance, work on communications, interception of couriers and foragers, pursuit of a defeated enemy. Everything.
      Quote: Bar1
      This is senile immunity.

      laughing About my work, you have already spoken, now about my age started? You do not know ANYTHING about anything else, nothing at all. fool How can you - I do not understand. The more fun it is for me to read it, that both times you are not that you did not hit, and you did not even understand which side was the target. If the price of your conclusions is the same in all other cases, as in mine, then you better not think at all - work as a courier or at McDonalds and do not pretend to more.
      Quote: Bar1
      this is not true.

      This is so.
      1. 0
        21 June 2018 17: 56
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        The Master of Trilobite (Michael) Today, 16:00 p.m. ↑
        Quote: Bar1
        What are you talking about different cards of Remezov?
        Look here for example. http://clubklad.ru/maps/2567/


        you tell me what Remezov’s card it is, what it’s not his, as you said. He has a Cossack Horde in different cards. In those that you brought, I also know them on the HX website there are in good quality. Here is also a Cossack horde- Is this the right card?




        Quote: Trilobite Master
        I see on it clearly English names. Are not the Anglo-Saxons the worst enemies of the Russian? Do not they all chronicles and chronicles faked?


        so what? Now we will not take English cards into account for these reasons? And the fact that the French fought with Russia is not a greater reason not to consider their cards?

        Quote: Trilobite Master
        On the map itself: what is underlined in red is Kazakhstan itself. Or are you so directly reading "Cossack Horde"? Frustratingly, it reads, most likely, similar to "Kesakia hordes."

        Well, I stressed that you would have seen.
        “Kesakia” doesn’t have such a word, but the word Cossack is what the Westerners called the country of the Cossacks and this is not a reason to reject the card from consideration.
        Now the most important thing is that you left the topic of the conversation about the Cossack Horde and showed the wrong part of the map about which we are talking.
        If I show you a map of the end of 18, then you are showing the map judging by the Astrakhan kingdom —16 of the century, because even in 16, Ivan 4 conquered Kazan and Astrakhan kingdoms — this is TI.



        Quote: Trilobite Master
        No, boring. No historical discoveries today. The day passes in vain.

        look bad, therefore there are no discoveries. According to your history, the Crimean Khanate was never called Tartary, besides Tartary is there on your map of the Kuban lands, which is also not according to TI. So we won’t say about Tartary to spread thought on the tree.

        Quote: Trilobite Master
        They have all the udaltsy - men, and men - udaltsy, riders and shepherds. The concepts are practically synonymous.


        no, not so riders, shepherds and daredevils and men are by no means synonyms, you know Russian poorly, and you don’t know the Turkic at all.
        1. +2
          21 June 2018 19: 10
          Quote: Bar1
          You tell me what card Remezov it, which is not his, as you said.

          Do you want me to analyze all Remezov cards and say which ones and which ones are not? Yes, and justified? Dismiss, this is a topic of serious scientific research. I just wanted to draw your attention to the fact that the maps published in his work differ in scale in terms of the quality of execution and in the degree of reliability. The most reliable - large-scale, they are also executed with the best quality.
          The most unreliable - small-scale, survey, it is they that contain the information dear to you, on the basis of which you draw your global conclusions. I believe that these cards Remezov pererail with the European (his was not, and most of all not to travel), perhaps, creatively worked out and directly and stupidly translated the names. And if some Ortelius wrote on the map a “horde of Kazakhs”, then in a direct translation, Remezov would have a “Cossack horde”. That's all.
          Quote: Bar1
          Now anglitskie cards will not be taken into account

          You take into account only what you like. In your opinion, is it that the British in Russia have cleaned everything up, but have you got the right map from a distance? It's funny ...
          Quote: Bar1
          Cossacks is how the Westerners called the country of the Cossacks.

          Well, at least here we agree. Cossacks, Kazakhs, that is, "Turkic udaltsov". And they called Russians Russian, Russia - Russia, Ukraine - Ukraine, the Tatar khanate - the Tartar khanate.
          Quote: Bar1
          If I show you a map of the end of 18, then you are showing the map judging by the Astrakhan kingdom —16 of the century, because even in 16, Ivan 4 conquered Kazan and Astrakhan kingdoms — this is TI.
          Excuse me, are you kidding?
          Titling of Peter I.“By the grace of God, we, the Most High and Most Powerful Great Sovereign and Grand Duke Peter Alekseevich of all the Great and Little and White of Russia, autocrat: Moscow, Kiev, Vladimersky, Novgorod, Tsar of Kazan, king of Astrakhan and the king of the Siberian, sovereign Pskov, Grand Duke of Smolensk, Tver, Yugra, Perm, Vyattsky, Bulgarian and other, the emperor and the Grand Duke Novagoroda Nizovskaya land, Chernigov, Ryazan, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Belozersk, Udorsky, Obdorsky, Kondiysky and all Nordic countries the sovereign, and the sovereign of Iversk land, the Kartala and Georgian kings, and the Kabardian lands, Cherkasy and Highland princes, and many other states and lands of Eastern and Western and Northern Otchich and Dedich and heir and sovereign and owner ”. Say you did not know?
          Quote: Bar1
          According to your history, the Crimean Khanate was never called Tartary, besides Tartary there, on your map, Kuban lands, which is also not according to TI.

          Crimean Tatars or Krymchaks always existed in normal history. Where the Tatars actually lived (and live now) on the European maps are “tartares”. In your opinion, this means that the Russians actually lived there, but my opinion is that the Europeans called the Tartars exactly the Tatars. Similarly, the "Cossacks". Where the Kazakhs lived (and live now), the Kazakh Horde is marked on European maps, but for you this is a signal that Russian Cossacks actually lived there. Dark water in the clouds, I do not understand this perverted thinking.
          As for the borders of the Crimean Khanate - ask, the information is not secret. Be surprised.
          Quote: Bar1
          Turkic do not know.

          The first time you guessed it, congratulations. Everything else about me is not even milk. laughing
          Incidentally, I did not understand that you do not agree with the fact that "Kaisak", "Kazakh" is a common collective name, but rather, the self-name of the Turkic-speaking tribes who led a nomadic way of life in the steppes of the Lower Volga, the Urals, Altai, etc. ., and "Cossack" - the nickname of the Russian people who lived on the border of forests and steppes and led a similar way of life, did, perhaps, focus on agriculture instead of cattle breeding?
          1. 0
            21 June 2018 23: 34
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Do you want me to analyze all the cards of Remezov and say which ones and which not?


            I would like to be responsible for my words. You said that he did something himself, one hundred and not himself, but like from Europe.
            So I brought you evidence that the Cossack Hordes i.e. Cossack troops themselves had a place to be housed in the steppes of Kazakhstan. After the revolution, the Kazakh nation was invented to conceal the presence of Cossacks and the lands of the Cossack Hordes, which the Bolsheviks called the Kazakh Zhuzes, were transferred to. This story is similar to the truth.

            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Well, at least here we agree. Cossacks, Kazakhs, that is, "Turkic udaltsov". And they called Russians Russian, Russia - Russia, Ukraine - Ukraine, the Tatar khanate - the Tartar khanate.


            do not bother all in one pile. Cossacks and Kazakhs are different peoples, different religions and different history. Cossacks are those whom we can call Russians, although they didn’t call themselves that, and Kazakhs are Mongoloids, a new people that appeared under the Bolsheviks. Before them, Kazakhs in the census of the Republic of Ingushetia 1897 was called the Kirghiz.

            Quote: Trilobite Master
            The title of Peter I. "B


            And in the E2 title, in general, was the mistress of the principalities of Obdoria and Condoria, you want to say, the principalities were real? In the North, among the ice?
            In short, show the whole map, what to argue.

            Quote: Trilobite Master
            The first time you guessed it, congratulations. Everything else about me is not even milk.
            Incidentally, I did not understand that you do not agree with the fact that "Kaisak", "Kazakh" is a common collective name, but rather, the self-name of the Turkic-speaking tribes who led a nomadic way of life in the steppes of the Lower Volga, the Urals, Altai, etc. ., and "Cossack" - the nickname of the Russian people who lived on the border of forests and steppes and led a similar way of life, did, perhaps, focus on agriculture instead of cattle breeding?


            I don’t guess what I see, I’m saying. So the Kazakh appeared after the revolution, and the Kaisak is not the united name of these tribes, but the united was the Kyrgyz.
            1. 0
              21 June 2018 23: 57
              Quote: Bar1
              do not bother all in one pile. Cossacks and Kazakhs are different peoples, different religions and different history. Cossacks are those whom we can call Russians, although they didn’t call themselves that, and Kazakhs are Mongoloids, a new people that appeared under the Bolsheviks. Before them, Kazakhs in the census of the Republic of Ingushetia 1897 was called the Kirghiz.

              Well do not botherfool Yes, Kazakhs and Cossacks are different nations, but the Kazakhs called themselves: "Kazak". They were called Kyrgyz in RI. And they began to call Kazakhs in Soviet timeslol .
              1. 0
                24 June 2018 15: 15
                ... Cossack - equestrian warrior, Kazakh - nationality ..
            2. +1
              22 June 2018 10: 05
              Quote: Bar1
              So I brought you evidence that the Cossack Horde Cossack troops had quite a place to be stationed in the steppes of Kazakhstan.

              Boring What you brought up - the maps - speaks more like a low level of knowledge in the field of geography of Central Asia in Western Europe. Why do you consider maps that do not correspond to reality in geographical terms to be absolutely reliable in terms of ethnographic? And why are some cards absolutely reliable, while others are not? Only because of some you can suck something that fits into the delusional concepts of the new times and then they are genuine, while others are not, respectively, they are fakes.
              All around agreed, the Bolsheviks continued the line of the Romanovs to fool the people, there were no Turkic Kazakhs, in their place in the steppe they hid a horde of Russian Cossacks, there were no Tatars either, in their place were Russian tartares ...
              In general, you have spoken so much lately that I can no longer treat you seriously, although I sincerely tried.
              Some people here are surprised that I mess with you as with a written bag. I will answer. It was interesting to me. Now it became uninteresting. You are stupid and ignorant, moreover, your thinking apparatus has undergone the destructive influence of an aggressive pseudoscientific environment, which significantly distorted the basic logical connections and principles for constructing logical conclusions.
              I don’t want to discuss with you anymore the particulars of the new-timed theories - the level of argumentation, based solely on one’s own conviction of one’s own right and distorted ideas about historical processes, is clear and frankly disgusting to me.
              Nevertheless, I reserve the right to comment on your further opuses in that style, which, I believe, is the only and worthy of the new hoarding - mockingly contemptuous mockery of both the hypotheses themselves and their authors and broadcasters.
              I say goodbye to this. In the future, I hope to see your messages as seldom as possible, but do not disappear completely - sometimes you need a character to whom you can point a finger and say something like "He read Fomenko. See what happened to him. But you could remain a man."
              1. 0
                23 June 2018 08: 01
                why did you bring a map that did not correspond to the topic of conversation, we talked about the Cossack Horde in the steppes of Kazakhstan. Do you forget everything?
              2. 0
                23 June 2018 08: 17
                so it came to insults. Well, this is a weak reception, when there’s nothing to say, when you have already plopped into a puddle from wobbles, when you forget what you said before from lies, you have only one thing to do, forgetting the human appearance. A strange name is the owner of a trilobite, why this?
                Trilobites are an extinct class of marine arthropods, which was of great importance for the fauna of the Paleozoic formations of the globe. Over 10 thousand fossils are known.


                yes so, there’s nothing to talk about.
      2. 0
        21 June 2018 18: 06
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        What ended there is not forgotten? The essence of the Cossack army - quickly get together, fly and dump, until the otvetka came. It may even take the city, but hold on - do not even think. It is boring to sit in a siege, there is nowhere to show.


        how it ended, the more it ended, and to conquer the city — a fortress by the Cossacks — robbers is your way, but in reality it is impossible.


        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Give me some Cossacks, and I will go all over Europe with them - do you mean this? If not this, then please have a reference saying “a better army.” And if that is, “I will pass” does not mean at all, “I will conquer "or I’ll conquer, or that the Cossacks are the best army. Cossacks during Napoleon’s time are just light cavalry, their task is reconnaissance, communication work, interception of couriers and foragers, pursuit of a defeated enemy. That's all.


        “We must give justice that Russia owes the success of the Cossacks in this war” (Napoleon’s Minister General Kollenkur).

        “The Cossacks have done a lot for the Glory of Russia. They were the true defenders and liberators of the Fatherland ”(French General Morand)

        “Don Cossacks are the best of all light troops. Russia always benefited from them in wars as much as possible ... All the numerous cavalry gathered under the banner of the Great Corsican (Napoleon) died mainly under the blows of the Cossacks of Ataman Platov ”(French General De Barth).

        “I’m used to always consider the Hungarian cavalry to be the first in the world, after the attack of General Ilovaisky I have seen, I must give priority to the Cossacks over the Hungarian cavalry” (French general Vintsegorod).

        “The Cossacks in 1812-1815 did more for Russia than its entire Army” (English General Nolan).

        “Give me only the Cossacks, and with them I will pass the whole world!” (French Emperor Napoleon).

        What is there to add? Napoleonic warriors themselves, after centuries, shut their mouths to the slanderers and hollow-necked of Russia of the 21st century.

        http://zema.su/blog/svidetelstva-inostrantsev-o-k
        azakakh-v-voine-1812-goda

        I’ll pass by, it doesn’t mean to conquer. You are already quite ... The level of demagogy is growing.
        1. +1
          25 June 2018 09: 07
          french general vinsegorod
          As if the Russian general was given to the French, well, not Ivanov, but Ferdinand Fedorovich is ours anyway!
          1. 0
            25 June 2018 09: 29
            Quote: Rey_ka
            french general vinsegorod
            As if the Russian general was given to the French, well, not Ivanov, but Ferdinand Fedorovich is ours anyway!

            dangled back and forth, from the Austrians to the Romanovs and vice versa, what is he like ours?
      3. +1
        25 June 2018 09: 23
        And the great cartographer Gerard Mercator in 1569 published a map with Hyperborea (Arctida) at the North Pole!
  19. +3
    21 June 2018 19: 59
    Quote: Bar1
    The level of demagogy is growing.

    From what? Napoleon said "I will pass." I understand this as "pass." As you understand - your business. By the way, in the era of Napoleon, the Cossacks, like light cavalry, really had no equal. But without reliance on the regular army - infantry, artillery, the Cossack army would have been defeated by Napoleon, even without a chance to cause him any harm. This is something you should understand. Laudatory reviews about the Cossacks of the French say only that the Cossack troops perfectly performed their tasks in the framework of a major war, acting together with the rest of the army, as part of it, submitting to a single command.
    In the entire history of the independent actions of the Cossacks did not lead to any serious political results, with the exception of the campaigns of Yermak, already mentioned by me, whose army, in fact, was regular, but this is a separate story. By the way, remind what cities there were and when the Cossacks took, and most importantly, how it all ended ...
    1. 0
      25 June 2018 09: 25
      But what about the campaign for the conquest of India by the Cossacks? Well, the truth has come to Astrakhan only, so the intrigues of the Muscovites!
  20. 0
    23 June 2018 03: 47
    Quote: moskowit
    Rather, Julian Semenov said ...

    Quote: Amateur
    But in 17 instants this was said by L. Broneva. And what Mueller himself thought about this, then I'm sorry, no one knows

    Bravo. Well said
  21. +1
    25 June 2018 09: 04
    Viceroy of the former Mongol kingdom of Hulagu
    Here the topic of the Gulag (Hulag) is not disclosed / And so the tyrant and despot dared to abolish the tax for 3 years! And he severely punished embezzlers and bureaucrats. That's where the liberals go for a walk !!
  22. 0
    22 August 2018 16: 06
    Tribe Barlas, the Mongols did not belong. Just Turks. Therefore, Tamerlane was not a khan, and only an emir.