Panzerkampfwagen II, T-60, Terminator BMPT and the principle of the well-forgotten old
Encountered in the abyss one article in which BMPT “Terminator” was very peculiarly compared with a tank T-35. Say, "Terminator" - this is crap, suitable only for parades. Pondering, to be honest.
In fact, BMPT has already discussed this on the site until I can. Dismantled the bones of weapons, expressed their opinion. However, we suggest looking at this hitherto unknown toy from a slightly different point of view. From point historical.
It will probably look weird, but in fact the Terminator has historical types. And this is not T-35, frightening thing, but completely unsuitable for combat. Luckily.
But first, we allow ourselves to express our opinion on how we understand the idea of the Terminator BMPT.
And we understand it with great difficulty. Despite the education and academy. Which in itself is strange.
But in the BMPT itself the oddities are no less than in our towers, but even more. And the most important oddity, which was almost never mentioned, is in fact the absence of the appointment of BMPT or BMIP, no matter how to call it.
Declared support either tanks or infantry. This is alarming. According to the full program.
"... is designed to operate as part of tank formations with the aim of defeating enemy anti-tank weapons: to effectively suppress enemy manpower, equipped with grenade launchers, anti-tank complexes, small-arms weapons; there is also an opportunity to hit tanks, BMP, dot, bunker and other highly protected targets on the move and from the spot. "
Probably worth paying attention to the history of creation. How did the Thermic come about? As we understand it, they took a tank, good in the storerooms of this good - like dirt, removed a cannon from the tank and began to think about why sticking it instead. No less effective and deadly, but different.
Apparently, there was nothing in the warehouses, so they began to cram on the principle that there is.
Yeah, there are pretty good 30-mm automatic cannons on the shelves. Give two! Not "Shilka", but "Pantsir" or "Tunguska". The question arises: why? As an air defense system this bmop does not work. It does not work at all, there is no radar, there is no guidance and tracking station, there is nothing. You can get into the helicopter, which is bobbing at a speed of 350 km / h, if everything in heaven converges right. That is - by chance.
Armored pick? And it depends on what. Tank - purely tickle, modern heavy armored personnel carriers and BMPs of the "Boxer" type 30-mm projectile in the forehead just hold, in the board - how lucky. Plus, their speed on 30-40% is higher, they can simply be trivial to blame. And do not catch up.
Guns, ATGMs, pillboxes, bunkers ... Also, as it were, doubtful. Especially bunkers and bunkers. And before the artillery or mortar still need to get there. In the conditions of modern combat, yes behind their tanks.
It remains a niche military old type of BMP-1, BTR-70, pickups with machine guns in the back. Then it’s not at all clear, are we going to drive an army on a permanent basis for export to the third or fourth world? "For rent"?
To the guns in general, the mountain was all questions. Chief - why are there two of them? If you can hit a target with one 30-mm cannon, then why the second? Well, in one RP-shells, in another BB. For example. But if it is impossible to solve the problem with an 30-mm projectile, then the second gun will not help. And the amount of ammunition for two barrels will not be more than for one. Less - yes, it will. The second gun as a place takes.
We, in fact, warmly support those who believe that these tarahkam on such a machine is nothing to do. And even explain why. Just below.
There is also a moral effect. Two barrels look worse. Effective marketing in action. But beauty is beauty, but in the case if: we want to destroy the enemy or to scare?
So if you frighten, then knowledgeable people will not let them lie: tank 125-mm - no matter where you are near during the shot, complete demoralization from the rumble and flame. And “Chwang !!!” is no match for the brain in comparison with “Tr-Tr-Tr”.
There is, they say, one place where the Terminator is convenient to use. City. There, they say, it is difficult for tanks (this is true), but the BMPT will cope with arrows and grenade launchers in buildings.
Controversial, however. This BMOP is not much different from a tank. 48 tons - hello! Where is the maneuverability and speed of the BMP / BTR? Not delivered. To pick the walls, speak? It is difficult to say, but it seems to us that the 57-mm projectile would have coped somewhat better than the 30-mm.
But his Majesty the RPG-7 in the city both solved the problem of armor, and will solve it further. And in the case of BMIP, it will be solved no less naturally and with special effects.
Well, that machine gun is. For completely unarmored allai-barbar targets with RPG-7. So far - the first (and last) sane weapon.
But there is still AGS! Two! One shoots on the right side, the second - on the left.
Bullshit. Why do AGM come up with? Yes, in order that the infantry in the defense could work with small frag-explosive surface-explosive on the squares. In order to oppress the same infantry enemy.
He, AGS, because and jumps like maydaun skhodnyak. Recoil is used precisely in order that the grenade launcher galloped and scattered the grenades in an almost staggered manner. Bonus AGS - the possibility of mounted shooting from closed positions or through an obstacle. However, even here the question arises: the BMPT should not be hiding on the battlefield, but, on the contrary, should go on the attack with tanks.
Well, plus a rigid mount AGS lead to two things. First: there will be no talk of any accuracy in firing, especially in motion. The second: additional wear on all parts of the mount due to recoil.
Plus to all the minuses - this is what AGS is not automated. Speaking in a simple way - requires an arrow. Two ags - two shooters. How could it be solved, but is it not very wasteful? After all, if the ACS was not required in battle, it's just two crew members do not understand what they are doing. Under the feet of the others are confused. Plus two potential corpses in case of something unpleasant. Type ATGM in response.
ABOUT! For sure! There are also ATGMs!
Yes, ATGM installed. And not the worst in general. "Attack". However, in our humble opinion, the best candy for a tank is uranium scrap wrapped in alloy steel. And against such a scrap of caliber 125-mm, the tricks are still not enough. Unlike the same ATGM.
Modern tank has something to counter the rocket. Blind, shut down with smoke, knock down a tip to the operator, drown out the radio channel. KDZ in the end has not been canceled. In addition, if we talk about this BMIP, what is its 4 ATGM? In comparison with the 45-th projectiles that in the carousel AZ at T-72? And which fly at speeds up to 8 per minute?
But there are also controlled cumulative toys for tanks of the type "Invar", "Invar-M", "Reflex" and the like, which in principle are the same ATGM, only smaller in size.
4 ATGM - this is not the four wrecked tanks, alas. Not a panacea.
The best example of the fresh - the long-suffering Donbass, by the way. A measured war in the image of the First World War, but also without aviation. A huge number of battles ended in victory for the side that had at least one combat-ready tank.
We will not go far beyond the example, that historical battle under Ulyanovka, where the militiamen had an EC-3 with two machine guns. Only a month later, the APU could recapture everything back. And if the tank also had shells ...
Tank is scary. This can be said in chorus, at different times, by different models, but we were run in.
And it is not necessary to broadcast these ATGMs so hard, the ATGM is good from ambush. No chance, if anything, to repeat. No wonder all the "Cornet" - "Phagot" ammunition three shots. No more bullet, no matter how hard you try. By "Tou" the same applies.
Okay, the rackets are already stuck. Nothing can be done. Maybe it will come in handy when. The whole question is about possibility. At the army forum we saw this miracle - the megajip "Tiger", from the roof of which the launcher could crawl out. By the way, it is logical, he is maneuverable, small and in the tank three times (if they have time) will think whether it is worth spending a projectile on him at all.
But “Terminator” is good, why? Is this a means of anti-tank defense? It seems to be a tank support combat vehicle, as many write. She goes along with the tanks, shoots somewhere ... But should the BMIP / BMPT also be an anti-tank weapon?
It seems that for this purpose there are regular VET facilities, aircraft, and the tanks themselves can, on occasion.
Here, about aviation just a few words.
There, above, we said that "Cheburator" as an air defense in any way. Can not. Well, if you are very lucky, the BC guns that are hanging all over the helicopter may fall.
These letters, air defense, and they are not in the tank. Yes, the anti-aircraft machine gun on the tank seems to be available, but not as a means of defense. This is so, an imitation of the presence of protection, so as not to be very nervous when suddenly you see enemy helicopters.
We ourselves are not particularly knowledgeable, because we asked the famous tankman AleksTV on the site. So, comrade Alexey stated authoritatively that hell you get out of it in general, and to the flying target in particular.
In addition, on our tanks for firing from the mountain anti-aircraft guns, you need to lean out of the tower so that the cry of "... akbar!" Will fly at the same time as a bullet to your head.
Watching various military shows like "Aviadarts", we can conclude that when you are thrown at least by NURS, it smells like kerosene and a burning ass.
But the potential has a miracle mop "Hellfire", which you can shoot at tanks already with 4-5 km. It is said that with hit everything is not so beautiful, as well as with real efficiency, but they exist. So you have to do something.
And here begins an epiphany on this BMPT.
Air defense. Not. To do this, there are "Shilka", "Tunguska", "Pantsiri" on the distant approaches. In principle, the “Tunguska” is such a serious apparatus that it is capable of any “Apache” poraskinut planes.
VET Not. To do this, there is aviation, "Cornets" and others. Yes, if from an ambush, then, probably, it is possible.
Cover the tanks in the fields. Weakly. This Durovina will be noticed before the tanks, even if the Terminators are put behind them. And shoot before. Just in case, why not, so that under the feet do not interfere. Fortunately, with the protection there everything is not quite like that of tanks.
Conditions of the city. Some argue that the BMO is directly created for the city. That's just the tanks in the city decided to send only in order to quickly write them off. Proven. But in the city a monster the size of a tank, with its own speed, maneuverability, however, having the ability to spit in all directions with something, especially up, will come in handy. Perhaps instead of tanks.
The tanker has one dream at all - the absence of these in the district, with grenade launchers and cumulative hand grenades and other pleasures. For this case, BMPT are uniquely valuable.
Here is a question of priority goals. If we are talking about causing maximum damage to the enemy, of course, the tank is preferable. And in the classic war, the army against the army, and in the partisan. And that decides the commander of the side attacking the city. Arrange Grozny or Stalingrad.
The most interesting thing about all this is that in no way do we dispute AleksTV’s opinion that the BMPT is the right machine for tank forces. In the end, here tanker know better. We, being people on the other side of the reservation, can only plan how to arrange a fire show from any BMPT or rather.
The opinion of Alexei, we have specially reserved for the end of all the narration and reflection. That's what we got in the end, so to speak, the compiled opinion of the tanker.
1. A BMPT type machine is very much needed by tank forces.
2. BMPT, the main feature of which is tank armor and automatic small-caliber gun more weighty support for the tank than the BMP.
3. "Terminator" is necessary, but with modifications. I would immediately remove the AGS and a little later - ATGM. As unnecessary to complete, the first and for reasons the second. Instead of ATGMs, it is better to put thermobaric charges. You can not - remove.
4. For an automatic cannon caliber from 23 to 75-mm on a modern battlefield, just a huge number of targets.
Actually, in many respects AleksTV confirmed our considerations.
Now about the story. And then many, looking at the headline, probably already nibbled their elbows. And everything is very simple.
To begin with, let's send everyone to the article about the light tank T-60. It tells how he appeared, and in what short time. And how not very long and impressive was his service.
Recall that, in principle, T-60 was actually a brother of the German PzKw-II or T-2. Everything seems to be. Sizes, armor, speed. Even 20-mm air cannon as weapons.
But because. Despite the available T-35, T-28, T-26, BT-7, T-34, KV-2 suddenly needed such a tank. In fact, a copy of the T-2. Here we must remember that the presence of thousands of the above Soviet tanks, the Red Army suffered one defeat after another. The monstrous T-35 and KV-2 were suddenly virtually useless. And the light T-26 and BT-7 suddenly suddenly became weak and outdated.
Although even weaker tanks were against them, BUT:
Here lies the answer to the main question.
The Germans did not have tanks equal to ours. But there was a well-established concept of using tanks, grown by the genius of Guderian.
It was easier for the Germans. They knew how to use their tanks. And they riveted them, based on the requirements of the "blitzkrieg" doctrine and the possibilities of industry.
We had worse. The tanks were, and the tanks were very good. Especially BT-7 and T-34. But with the concept it was worse before done. It simply did not exist, just as there were no commanders who could clearly understand how to fight with tank units.
The dull brain of Tukhachevsky was able to master one single thought in his career. Ram kick First infantry masses, then tank. Everything, on this point. That is why it took tens of thousands of tanks, doomed to simply burn in frontal attacks.
What actually happened in 1941 year. Burned or abandoned.
And today we have all the same.
Someone clever conveyed to the Ministry of Defense the idea of BMPT. Good. Now, if this colonel for the generals also wrote the concept of their use, it would be a masterpiece.
Alas, in this wonderland does not happen. The idea of a tank support vehicle or a fire support was accepted. And even the task was given. But the question of how to apply it, no one rushed to think over. As usual, however. What we give, and so will fight.
From here, there is complete silence in the media, especially in those television channels that, choking with delight, narrated how the Terminator will now tear the bearded people in Syria.
Reports were more than modest. Yes, something was said there in the style of “well, you understand, the BMPT was used in slightly different conditions, in an unusual manner ...”
And what the hell, gentlemen generals, you did not test it in those conditions? And how did BMPT appear to be in them at all?
Again Tukhachevskys ...
By the way, the appearance of the light tank T-1941 in 60 did not alleviate the situation. More precisely, it was useful where it was used correctly. And this, as everyone knows, before the 1943 of the year was at the rank of exceptions.
That's when they understood, realized, worked, paid for in blood, then a certain concept appeared. Imputed. And the tanks appeared under it. The same Isa. Not just a heavy tank, beauty and pride, like the T-35. A heavy killer, breaking through any defense.
Similarly in our case, albeit in 75 years. Sondobit next vundervaflu "which has no analogues in the world" (yes, who needs it, is this a useless device on 70%?) From what was at hand - this is just nonsense.
And according to the mind, first think about how it will be used, this BMPT, then design it all the same, and only then build it. And not the other way around.
Many thanks to Alexey (AleksTV) for tank consultations.
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