Vikings and their ships (part 2)

69
Needless to say, archaeologists were not lucky with the finds of Viking armor. Just one single “helmet from Germundby” is, of course, not enough. But on the other hand, they were lucky with their ships, which they found quite enough to study properly. And, what is especially interesting, they found Viking ships both on land and under water, and the latter were even able to be lifted to the surface, assembled, mothballed, protected from further destruction and exhibited in the museum. We are talking about the ships of the Vikings, found at the bottom of the Danish fjord Roskill (dat. Roskilde).


The building of the museum of the Viking ships in Roskilde.



It so happened that local fishermen knew about the ship lying in this area for a long time. Moreover, there was a legend that this ship was ordered to be flooded by the great Queen Margrethe, who ruled Denmark in the XIV century, in order to thus block the enemy the fleet way to the port of Roskilde. However, when in 1956 two scuba divers lifted an oak plank from this ship from the seabed and handed it over to specialists from the Danish National Museum, it turned out that it was four hundred years older than this queen! That is, this ship could only belong to the Vikings!


Since all five ships were found not far from the port of Skuldelev, for simplicity they were called "Skuldelev I", II, III, IV, V. This is the largest of the ships found - "Skuldelev I".

The Danish historians had no experience in conducting underwater archaeological research, and the aqualung itself, which made it possible to conduct such research, did not appear long ago, and it was only just begun to be mastered. Therefore, they placed no particular hopes on the results of underwater work. In addition, they feared that over the years ice and tides would have destroyed most of the ship. Nevertheless, in 1957, a search team consisting of five people, hiring scuba gear, a fire pump to remove the silt, a pontoon to house the equipment, began an underwater survey.


"Skuldelev II".

The work was very difficult. The fireman’s sediment raised clouds of silt, so it was necessary to wait until it was carried away by the current and only then to continue working. In addition, the ship's wreck was littered with heavy stones. And here, examining them, underwater archaeologists made their first discovery - next to the keel of the first ship, they saw the second! So the ship here was not alone?

Vikings and their ships (part 2)

"Skuldelev III".

However, it was here that the season ended, and only a year later they were able to resume their work. And then it turned out that at the bottom of the fairway Peberrenden - one of the most important fairways, lies not one, and not two ships, but five! First, the researchers managed to dig out the first two ships, and then clear a part of the hull of the third ship. Moreover, the oak from which it was made was preserved so well that even the notches from the shipbuilders' axes were visible on it, that is, it was only possible to dream of such preservation. Archaeologists have found and raised to the surface of the skin, transverse beams and fasteners. In addition, since this ship lay deep, all parts that had not been cleared away also had to be well preserved.

During the first three years of work under water, archaeologists raised the largest and most well-preserved wooden parts to the surface, and what remained at the bottom, they again carefully covered them with stones. In this form, the ships remained at the bottom until the excavation site was surrounded by a special dam.

Then, already in 1962, a pontoon with pumps was installed inside this dam and they began to gently pump water out of it. There was a danger that the stones could move and crush a fragile tree. Therefore, the water was pumped out very carefully, reducing its level by only a few inches per day.


"Skuldelev V".

When the ships were already on the surface of the water, students were involved in the work, who began to release them from stone captivity. We had to lie flat on the narrow wooden footbridge, located above the excavation site, and first loosen the stones with water jets from the hoses, and then collect them in buckets and take them on wheelbarrows.

It was forbidden to use any metal tools in order to not drop them by accident or damage the fragile wood. It was necessary to use plastic buckets, as well as children's scoops for sand and kitchen scrapers made of plastic - the only tools that made it easier for workers to do their work.


This is how the scuba divers worked under water, clearing the parts of the found ships and lifting them to the surface.

In addition, it was necessary to fear that the tree, once airborne, would dry out and warp at the same time, that is, the details would decrease in volume and lose their shape! Therefore, special sprinklers were installed at the place of work and the site of work was continuously watered with water, which made it necessary to work in raincoats and boots.

The scope of work was truly colossal. So, each find was photographed and attached to it tags describing which ship she belongs to and where she should be. In total, we managed to pick up 50000 debris from the seabed and catalog them all carefully!


The device housing, as you can see, was thoughtful and rational. Buttting, which increased its strength, as well as transverse and longitudinal fastenings — it all looks technically literate even today.

Interestingly, in the process of excavation it turned out that two of the five ships were not combat ships, but commercial ones. That is, the Vikings were able not only to fight, but also to trade, and even built special vessels for this purpose.

Moreover, one of these ships, the so-called "Knorr", turned out to be strong enough and roomy enough to withstand the storms of the Atlantic Ocean. So, it is possible that it was on such ships that the Vikings-immigrants set out to explore Iceland and Greenland, and did not sail there at all on the combat ships, the Drakkars. Another, relatively small and light ship, was a typical coastal vessel, which the Vikings used to sail the Baltic and North Seas. The sides of these ships were taller, while they themselves were wider than warships, narrow and streamlined. In the middle part there was a capacious hold, which could, if necessary, be covered with a leather awning to protect it from moisture. Interestingly, both merchant ships bore obvious traces of exploitation, and many years, as they were worn and beaten in many places.


It's hard to imagine, but this tree is about 1118 years old!

By the way, the lighter vessel, yielding in size to the second one, turned out to be the most valuable find. The fact is that, unlike other ships found at the bottom of the fjord, it retained its original shape. Moreover, 75 percent of the length of its thirteen and a half meter hull was not affected at all. From the stern, however, virtually nothing was left, but his curved nose from a single piece of oak wood was perfectly preserved, despite the millennial stay under water. He had no decorations, because it was a merchant ship, but despite this his outlines were very beautiful and aesthetic. On the ship there were holes for oars, but not all showed signs of wear. This made it possible to establish the size of his crew - just 4-6 people, and also the fact that it sailed more often than on oars.


Viking ships: Drakkar - on the left, Knorr - on the right. Fig. V. Korolkova.

As soon as it became known about the finds at the bottom of the Roskilde fjord, several Danish cities at once declared their readiness to equip for storage their respective museum premises. Roskilde was chosen, since the construction of a museum complex of glass and steel was already planned there. True, here began a purely technical trouble with the findings themselves. The fact is that in order for the tree not to dry out and not lose its shape, it is treated in baths with water and a special substance - glycol, and this operation takes from six months to two years. In theory, it was supposed to protect the wood. However, when everything was ready and the scientists began assembling the parts into one, it was noticed that the wood of some of the parts was still being dried. It turned out that the glycol penetrated into them only into the upper layers of the wood, but not deeper. Understanding what this will lead to over time, the scientists decided to remove the glycol, for which they began to bathe the wooden parts in the baths, first with hot water and then rinse with cold, after which the tree again swelled and acquired the same volume.

Now the process decided to improve. The water was replaced with butanol, a type of alcohol that promoted the uniform introduction of glycol into the pores of wood, which allowed it to be strengthened, but was no longer threatened with shrinkage. As a result, the restorers were able to continue their work on assembling ships and bring it to the end.


Next to the museum is the shipyard, where modern masters of the past create the same crafts as those that are on display in the museum.

Parts of the ships were placed on special metal hulls, imitating hull lines, and the missing parts were never replaced, although the overall outlines of the hulls were fully preserved. One of the halls had to be lengthened, since the ship that was supposed to be in it was too big for him. Two merchant ships were given a place of honor against the backdrop of a huge window overlooking the fjord, which became an excellent decoration for their silhouettes.


And then on them for money (only 80 crowns!) Roll everyone. The sensations from this voyage are said to remain unforgettable!

Most importantly, even a partial reconstruction of all these courts showed that the people who built them had a lot of experience and were true masters of their craft. That is, they were able to create both functional and beautiful vessels at the same time. At the same time, they worked, using the most primitive tools, did not know mathematics and mathematics, and nevertheless, they were able to build ships with excellent nautical qualities. On the other hand, all these five Viking ships are also a monument to modern scientists who were able to extract their debris from the sea floor, protect them from inevitable destruction when dried in air, and save them for us and our descendants.


Well, this ship was found only in 1996, right here in Roskilde, and quite by accident. It was the largest among all the Viking ships found to date. It has already been calculated that it was built at that time, and it was built around 1025, approximately 30 thousand man-hours of work of shipbuilders took, and you should add to this the work of lumberjacks and the transportation of materials to the construction site. The length of the ship exceeds 36 meters, which is as much as four meters more than the length of Henry VIII’s flagship Mary Rose, which was built five centuries later. On board the ship could take 100 warriors, who took turns rowing 39 in pairs of oars, if suddenly the wind for his woolen square sail was not enough. It was cramped on board, I had to sleep, sitting between my chests, and there was also very little room for supplies. Therefore, they took them to a minimum and only at one end, since the voyage was short. Experienced voyages of ship-copies of the Viking ships were able to prove that they easily withstand the average speed of the 5,5 knot, and with a fresh wind they can rush at the speed of 20 knots. There is not much left of this ship, but, nevertheless, it is quite possible to imagine what exactly this super-Drakkar looked like ...

To be continued ...
Our news channels

Subscribe and stay up to date with the latest news and the most important events of the day.

69 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +1
    13 June 2018 05: 07
    In the time of the Vikings it was normal at the slightest opportunity to rob a neighbor ... So it's just PR ...
    1. +6
      13 June 2018 06: 10
      You can get from a neighbor by the brains as well, so they went along with a neighbor to rob someone richer.
      1. +2
        13 June 2018 09: 58
        Quote: Cartalon
        You can get from a neighbor by the brains as well, so they went along with a neighbor to rob someone richer.

        Not from anyone.
        But then they were lucky with their ships, which were found quite enough to be properly explored.
        Archaeologists are lucky with the Slavic courts, which regularly dig themselves back into the ground
        1. +2
          13 June 2018 12: 23
          Please provide specific examples of found and again buried ships of the Slavs.
          1. +4
            13 June 2018 12: 35
            Quote: Curious
            Please provide specific examples of found and again buried ships of the Slavs.

            This has been happening since the Soviet era. For example, on the island of Rugen.
            Ilya Sergeyevich talked about this in his book "Crucified Russia"
            "" Being on the island of Rugen and learning about archaeological excavations, I hastened to meet young archaeologists, students of the University of Berlin ... One of them ... shaking his head in dismay, said: "What a pity you are late! ..." " Why are you late? " I asked in surprise. The young man told me that a few days ago they dug up a Slavic wooden boat of the 9th century and yesterday, again as a result of uselessness, they covered it with earth. "How? ... Why did you do this?" The young archaeologist evasively answered: "And who needs it?" - "How to whom? - I could not recover from amazement, - well, they would have sent to Moscow!" Looking at me with the gray eyes of a Viking, the German youth looked away: "Moscow is not interested in this." "Well, then, have mercy, we have a famous historian and archaeologist, academician Rybakov." The Viking frowned his tanned forehead: “We know the name of Genosse Rybakov from our leader, a world-famous scientist Genosse Hermann (apparently, we mean archaeologist and historian J. Herrmann, approx. Swinow). Our business is to dig, and report the findings to the professor.” Being in deep excitement, I asked my new acquaintance what the most interesting finds were discovered by the German expedition. The descendant of the Teutons shrugged and uttered an irritated phrase that had been engraved in my memory for my whole life: "HERE'S EVERYTHING BEFORE MAGMA SLAVIC!"
            1. +7
              13 June 2018 13: 06
              Quote: Wend
              Ilya Glazunov talked about this in his book "Crucified Russia"

              Ilya Sergeyevich is an artist, he sees and hears everything in a special way.
              In particular, he could not or did not want to hear the continuation of this story. The rook was really covered with earth, but only in order to preserve it until the moment when they prepared measures for its preservation. You read now in the article what complex operations were carried out by scientists to preserve the tree. Here is the same thing. In your opinion, it was necessary to take everything out and leave it in the open air until the storage was prepared for her?
              By the way, take an interest in the fate of this boat, where it is now located. You will be surprised to the extreme. But your dear Ilya Sergeevich, of course, could not know about this.
              And further. The fact that the Slavs lived on Ryugen and around it in antiquity has long been an open secret. Even on maps in the history books of the 80's for the fourth grade, this territory is designated as the territory of the settlement of the Western Slavs. I do not know why this information causes such a stir in some. You can run and shout with the same success: “You heard that the earth turns out to be a sphere, it’s not flat! Why didn’t anyone tell us this? Communists (Western masters, Masons, Zionists, Anglo-Saxons - choose) , hide secret knowledge from us! "
              Yes, once the Slavs lived there, and now the Germans live. So what?
              1. +1
                13 June 2018 17: 03
                Quote: Trilobite Master

                Yes, once the Slavs lived there, and now the Germans live. So what?
                And the fact that not everything found on the territory of the modern state belongs to the past of its people. And the fitting of facts is common in history.
                https://nap1000.livejournal.com/19077.html
                1. +3
                  13 June 2018 17: 59
                  Quote: Wend
                  And the fact that not everything found on the territory of the modern state is a belonging to the past of its people.

                  I agree with you. But tell it to the lovers of Arkaim - you will be cursed. Earlier north of the Oka River the Finno-Ugrians lived entirely, now the Slavs, and the Slavs lived on the Elbe, which in those days was called Laba, now the Germans live there. And in Prussia lived the Finno-Ugric peoples, the Balts, the Slavs, then the Germans, and now again the Slavs. And Istanbul was not always Istanbul - Greeks, Slavs, Semites, and all together - Romans, subjects of the Byzantine Empire, lived there and in the district. But now the Turks live there.
                  I do not understand why any sensations should be made of this. Do you want to return the clan wing of Moscow to the original Slavic lands in Labe region?
                  Quote: Wend
                  And the fitting of facts is a common thing in history.
                  What a fit, what? Is someone hiding from us the greatness of the Russian people? Maybe not looking there?
                  Russian boats fell asleep and the place was flooded so that there would be no memory of the Slavs? Not. They dig out, study, restore, take pride in their ancestors, who managed to conquer these lands from their previous owners, Slavs.
                  What do you see fit the story in this particular case?
                  1. +1
                    13 June 2018 18: 19
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Quote: Wend
                    And the fact that not everything found on the territory of the modern state is a belonging to the past of its people.

                    I agree with you. But tell it to the lovers of Arkaim - you will be cursed.
                    Everything is very interesting with Arkaim, but this question remains to be studied.
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    [Earlier north of the Oka River there lived entirely Finno-Ugric peoples, now the Slavs,

                    When is this before?
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    [and the Slavs lived on the Elbe, which in those days was called Laba, now the Germans live there. And in Prussia lived the Finno-Ugric peoples, the Balts, the Slavs, then the Germans, and now again the Slavs. And Istanbul was not always Istanbul - Greeks, Slavs, Semites, and all together - Romans, subjects of the Byzantine Empire, lived there and in the district. But now the Turks live there.
                    I do not understand why any sensations should be made of this. Do you want to return the clan wing of Moscow to the original Slavic lands in Labe region?

                    What does the sensation have to do with it? On the territory of Germany lives the primordial people-the owner of those lands. Their sorbs are few, they have their own area, though they continue to destroy them (assimilate). Why return, Russia already has a large territory,
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    [
                    Quote: Wend
                    And the fitting of facts is a common thing in history.
                    What a fit, what? Is someone hiding from us the greatness of the Russian people? Maybe not looking there?

                    Yes, I have already found a lot of things, just read the chronographs. Many are dissatisfied with my findings
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    [Russian boats fell asleep and the place was flooded so that there would be no memory of the Slavs? Not. They dig out, study, restore, take pride in their ancestors, who managed to conquer these lands from their previous owners, Slavs.
                    What do you see fit the story in this particular case?

                    Are you sure about that? Have you read the reports of German archaeologists? Inquire, after all, I dropped the link to you. Yes, and you don’t have to go far, read the Stender-Petersen theory.
                    1. +4
                      13 June 2018 19: 01
                      Quote: Wend
                      When is this before?

                      This is when the Slavs have not yet come there. I don’t remember exactly when it was, but probably a century in the VI-VII AD
                      Quote: Wend
                      Are you sure about that?

                      I did not understand what I should be sure of. What they learn, preserve and be proud of? I am sure of that. In that they know that these lands used to belong to the Slavs? Of course they know.
                      Stender-Petersen is something from the Normanism-Anti-Normanism series, in my opinion, a supporter of Norman theory. I did not study his works subjectively, but links to him came across.
                      Considering that I myself adhere to the Norman point of view on the process of the emergence of both our state and the very name "Rus", Normanist theories do not act on me like a red rag on a bull. I see nothing wrong with admitting that in the 9th century Slavs (Slovenes and Krivichi), Finno-Ugric peoples (Chud, Meria, all) and Scandinavians (Russia) united among themselves and built such a multinational state with a unique culture. And this state got its name from the Finnish word distorted by the Slavs, meaning Scandinavians. In, wrapped up. laughing
                      The Finns called the Scandinavians "Ruotsi" - something like "people in boats", "rowers", hence the "Rus". By the way, in Finland, and now you’ll go to the right - to “Venya”, that is, you will get Russia, to the left you will go - to “Ruotsi”, or Sweden you will get. So Stender-Peterson will not scare me. smile
                      Personally, I do not see anything Russophobic in this understanding of the issue - the normal process of forming a state is the unification of tribes, a prince, a squad, the name of the prince is the name.
                      And what, did Stender-Peterson utter something completely seditious? About the inferiority of the Slavs or Finns, I suppose? If so, then he went away. By the time of the creation of the state, the Eastern Slavs under the leadership of Rurik in Sweden itself did not even have this state, they had fog and legends all the way up to 1000, so that one of us needs to see this more fully. laughing
            2. +6
              13 June 2018 13: 56
              And you didn’t bother to ask the experts why you didn’t immediately begin to extract its further fate with a lie? Or do such things not fit into the methodology of studying the history of the superethnos? By the way, they found rooks there, if my memory serves me, three or four.
    2. +2
      13 June 2018 08: 42
      What exactly is PR?
      1. +1
        13 June 2018 22: 36
        Enterprising Norwegians for them for money (just 80 crowns!) Ride everyone. The sensations of this voyage are said to remain unforgettable!


        Especially the "raids" on the "French" coast with the looting of local shops laughing
  2. +2
    13 June 2018 08: 26
    Drakkar is a thing
    1. +2
      13 June 2018 22: 39
      and two drakkars - this is a position in society. Respected man
  3. +3
    13 June 2018 08: 45
    Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that with a similar design and set of the case, 36 meters was already a critical value.
    1. +5
      13 June 2018 12: 00
      For marine wooden ships longer than 15 m, there is an approximate formula by which the maximum bending moment on the wave M is determined:

      Here the Vikings used it.
      1. +4
        13 June 2018 13: 25
        Of course. Swore, remembered Loki, but used it.
        1. +4
          13 June 2018 18: 04
          commemorated Loki

          it was Loki, and he hiccuped. laughing Academician Krylov was not born yet! drinks no, I just remember that he created a series of shipbuilding formulas that can be applied now hi
          1. +3
            13 June 2018 18: 41
            "... he created a number of shipbuilding formulas that can still be applied ... "
            Aleksey Nikolaevich Krylov is the author of classical works on the theory of ship oscillations on waves, on the ship’s structural mechanics, the theory of ship vibration and unsinkability, on the theory of gyroscopes, external ballistics, mathematical analysis and mechanics as applied to shipbuilding, on the history of physical, mathematical and technical sciences and so forth and so forth and so forth. Founder of the modern Russian school of shipbuilding, a value of truly world significance. That's about whom you need to write on the pages of the site, and not about Hermophrodite Bochkareva, who won the whole "series".
            1. +3
              13 June 2018 19: 53
              That's about whom you need to write on the pages of the site, and not about Hermophrodite Bochkareva, who won the whole "series".

              everyone has their own ideas about patriotism. hi and Bochkareva they also had their own, and the author of the "series". Today, for example, an article about Reisner came out .. what and Dybenko is just a human encyclopedia regarding the "interesting behavior". As I wrote about Murat - fanfaron and baobab laughing Only not on a horse, but in a peak! fellow
      2. +4
        13 June 2018 14: 05
        Everything is much simpler: the hull is essentially a V-shaped beam, the higher the beam wall (that is, the sides of the ship's hull), the greater the bending moment it can withstand.

        Viking dragons and Rooks of the Slavs were low-breasted and could withstand less bending moment than, for example, the Mediterranean triremes, quadriremes and quinquires.
        1. 0
          14 June 2018 13: 22
          Well, the drakars bent on the wave. They, by the way, for this reason, the lower sections of the casing were not attached to the frames. And indeed, as they wrote, it was one of the strongest sensations on the reconstructed drakkars - to see how it all bends and hear how the casing slams on the frames. It seemed that the whole structure was about to fall apart.
          1. 0
            14 June 2018 14: 09
            With an increase in its length, a low-sided drakkar would not just bend, but break, especially on a wave of equal length with it.

            The lateral strength of the drakkar was negatively affected by the mismatch of the plane of the side of this vessel (beam wall) with the direction of action of the cutting force (vertically in the direction of gravity).

            Triremes, caravels and other types of larger wooden vessels had a V-shaped bottom and vertical sides.
            1. 0
              14 June 2018 16: 28
              Quote: Operator
              With an increase in its length, a low-sided drakkar would not just bend, but break, especially on a wave of equal length with it.

              In the case of the samples presented in the article, the Vikings still managed quite well, increasing the number of frames per meter length. To increase the sides and install additional elements of the set is not an option. It was necessary, when necessary, to be able to pull the ship ashore, passing the surf.
              Quote: Operator
              The lateral strength of the drakkar was negatively affected by the mismatch of the plane of the side of this vessel (beam wall) with the direction of action of the cutting force (vertically in the direction of gravity).
              Triremes, caravels and other types of wooden vessels of greater length had.


              No. 5 is the largest warship from Skuldelev. V-shaped bottom and vertical sides. If you begin to strengthen the elements of the set, you will get a pot-bellied and massive cargo truck No. 7, which purely technically will lose to the drakkara by the number of rowers per ton of displacement.
              1. 0
                14 June 2018 16: 37
                You correctly note the functional features of the drakkar - the ability to pass the surf strip (deadlift of the entire hull) and the ability to manually take the ship to a gentle shore / lower it from the shore (lightweight design). But for this I had to pay a reduced longitudinal strength of the body.

                Caravel builders and their followers abandoned this functionality and removed restrictions on the length of the vessel.
    2. 0
      17 June 2018 12: 38
      You're right! That is most likely the case.
  4. +3
    13 June 2018 08: 47
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, thanks for the article! Will there be material about shields? Or a topic already worked out?
    1. +3
      13 June 2018 10: 40
      for some reason it seems to me that it will .. what
      1. +2
        13 June 2018 10: 56
        Just V.O. already published a series of shields, including the Norman.
        1. +2
          13 June 2018 21: 49
          supplement never hurts. IMHO! wink
          1. +2
            13 June 2018 22: 42
            Vyacheslav Olegovich, but do not want to write about the nasal ornaments of dragrakars? It would be very interesting
            1. +4
              13 June 2018 22: 43
              wait ... we'll wait .. wink drinks amazing is always there!
  5. +5
    13 June 2018 12: 16
    In the city of Vyborg (Leningrad Oblast) on the promenade in the city center are two drakkars. They are modeled on the Gokstad ship. Exactly the same participated in the filming of "And trees grow on stones."
    1. +3
      13 June 2018 12: 29
      This is a replica of those who participated in the filming. No more than a layout.
      1. +3
        13 June 2018 12: 46
        It is clear that the layout. I didn’t offer to go to them in the sea ... smile
        It’s just that you can crawl along, touch with your hands, stand on the deck, see life-size what it looked like in kind. Of course, they do not have historical value from the word "completely", but for clarity - very much so.
      2. +2
        13 June 2018 17: 52
        And I liked the ships from the movie “Vikings” with Kirk Douglas and Tony Curtis!
    2. +4
      13 June 2018 12: 41
      And in the Vyborg district there is an interesting place - Varyazhsky Dvor or Svargas. Itself was there for the last time a long time ago - about four years ago, then this place was positioned as a Viking village, such a kind of fortified settlement with wooden walls, a forge inside - in general, the lair of the reconstructors. Overall, I liked it. They give them a chance to shoot, hold the Carolingian sword in their hands, try on chain mail ... True, now it seems that they have expanded the theme and rest more on the ancient Slavs, why they changed the name from Sengard to Svargas ...
      1. +3
        13 June 2018 18: 00
        EMNIP, admission by appointment only, and excursions also only as part of a group. About six months ago, I thought to visit, looked through the internet. I could be wrong! hi And the Drakkars - he’ve been to Vyborg so many times, but hasn’t approached them! recourse
    3. +1
      14 June 2018 15: 30
      There are no Viking fights. There were soimas that are still able to do in Priilmenye in the villages of Vzvad and Ustrek. These boats plowed the Baltic, Ladoga, Ilmen and Lake Onega, the White Sea and the Arctic Ocean. On them, the Cossacks of the seed Dezhnyov reached the Indigirka River in Kolyma. Different nations may have different names, the main thing is that there is one design. There are differences for the river and sea boats, but these are the nuances.
      1. +4
        14 June 2018 15: 47
        Quote: Yura Yakovlev
        There are no Viking fights.

        Both-on, the corner of the show ...
        But what about this ... Finds of these same dragrakars? Drawings with these same dragrakars? What to do with a huge layer of historical evidence that speaks of what was? And not saying anything about the villages of Vzvad and Ustrek, as well as about other villages of Priilmen'e, with all due respect to their inhabitants?
        You, apparently, of those who consider Russia the birthplace of elephants?
        Believe me, you don’t need to deny the real merits of someone else so that your own achievements seem more significant. And so, in any case, it is not necessary to do this with the achievements of the Russian people - they are already more than significant, there is no need to artificially inflate them.
        1. +3
          14 June 2018 21: 03
          You, apparently, of those who consider Russia the birthplace of elephants?

          it's too cold here. Russia - the Motherland of mammoths! fellow soldier Michael, I put it in sight - confusing animals! soldier laughing drinks shame to the owner of a whole trilobite! fellow laughing
        2. +1
          14 June 2018 23: 19
          Yes, this troll has already appeared. This is from the same cohort from where cats are kuzi, grills, memorable veni and similar comrades. Do not waste resources.
          1. +2
            15 June 2018 00: 34
            Quote: Mikado
            Russia - the Motherland of mammoths!

            Nikolay, Russia is the birthplace of muskrats. laughing Well, maybe not only Russia, but the Slavic lands for sure. And, if we take it wider, then the lands of the superethnos of the Rus. The emblem of the Scythian-Russian empire of the boreal world should definitely be a desman, unambiguously, since this magnificent ancient animal was the only witness to the first Scythian-Rus first hit the first Semito-Anglo-Saxon, the forerunner of the “masters of the west” with a large Russian club on the bald-curly head. laughing
            Quote: Curious
            Do not waste resources.

            Victor Nikolaevich, where to put them? I understand the theory of shipbuilding, I apologize, like Fomenko in history, well, maybe a little better. What he knew about the drakars - he said, even posted a photo. smile
            Want to tell you about the tactics of "sea battle" on a small lake between two teams on two small rafts? Each team consisted of five to six juvenile blockheads and one or two Valkyries on the shore. Even from the point of view of the history of the late USSR, these battles were of miserable importance, what can we say about the Viking era ... Do not want to? Okay, I won’t, although it’s a pity, I understand this just ... smile
            As for the troll, he is not looking for opponents, but for accomplices. Today did not find - good. Tomorrow will find - we will find out their names, passwords and appearances, but for now it is not harmful and slightly to move through the wort - gently and intelligently. I am now the one for whom two unbeaten were given ... laughing
            1. +2
              15 June 2018 01: 19

              Desman - "a majestic ancient animal."
        3. 0
          15 June 2018 21: 08
          "But what about this ... Finds of these same dragrakars? Drawings of these same dragrakars? What to do with a huge layer of historical evidence that says that there were?"
          The question is not at all what they were or weren’t, but how do they differ from our Kochi, Sojm, lodges and canoes? Nothing! So there was a single manufacturing technology in all of Europe, therefore, attributing the merits of the Vikings, as exceptional sailors should not be.
          1. +1
            15 June 2018 22: 44
            Quote: Yura Yakovlev
            The question is not at all what they were or were not

            You wrote
            Quote: Yura Yakovlev
            There are no Viking fights.

            My question arose specifically for this phrase. Further
            Quote: Yura Yakovlev
            how do they differ from our kochi, soim, lodges and shuttles?

            Are different. Materials, technologies, sizes, characteristics and purpose. Of all of the above, only a boat in its characteristics and design can be compared with a drakkar, but on average, it is still less in length and displacement.
            1. 0
              16 June 2018 21: 51
              "Differ. Materials, technologies, sizes, characteristics and purpose"
              I’m more than sure that you can’t distinguish a fishing seom from a drakar, since the design is the same. Well, the technology is different in that our boats were "sewed", and their masters were built by the dracars. As for the forest, it may be chopped from one grove.
              Now about the sizes. Due to the principle of reasonable sufficiency, our "sewed" boats of no more than 20 meters in size, and all of them sailed or, as the sailors say, "walked", even along the northern seas and Siberian rivers, thanks to which the population of Siberia - chaldons - appeared. But their monumental-sized fights were on the river bottom, due to their absurdity and came to us in the form of archaeological finds.
              1. +1
                17 June 2018 13: 10
                Quote: Yura Yakovlev
                I’m more than sure that you can’t distinguish a fishing seom from a drakar, since the design is the same.

                Well, I guess. These are generally different vessels, including those for which they were intended. Warship and fishing boat - can they be compared?
                I don’t understand what you are trying to prove. Advantages of soim over dragrakars? Everyone is good in their place. The superiority of East Slavic mariners over European? This is more than doubtful, especially with reference to the 9th-11th centuries.
                Quote: Yura Yakovlev
                "walked", and even along the northern seas and Siberian rivers
                This is already a few hundred years after the end of the Viking era.
                Quote: Yura Yakovlev
                As for the forest, it may be chopped from one grove.
                By this you want to say that the drakkars were built not in Sweden or Norway, but in Russia? That the Scandinavians did not have their own shipbuilders? More than a bold statement, try to justify it somehow.
                Quote: Yura Yakovlev
                But their monumental-sized fights were on the river bottom, due to their absurdity and came to us in the form of archaeological finds.

                Interesting. Where were the drakars found on the river bottom? I don’t know anything about such finds. Maybe in Europe where? Found on the seabed, found in burial mounds, but I didn’t hear something in the rivers. It’s inconvenient to walk along the rivers on the drakars — too long, the draft is a meter, it is difficult to drag. So, from the mouth to the first rapids. Theoretically, using floods, with one winter, it was possible to move from Ladoga to the Volga in a dragrak, for example, but it was more practical to use Russian ships for those trips, just the ones you listed.
                As for the absurdity of the Drakkars, I think that the inhabitants of Europe in the early Middle Ages would be very surprised at such a judgment. In those days, to meet the drakkar at sea was a certain death, no one could oppose them, at least in the north of Europe. The ultimate weapon.
                1. 0
                  19 June 2018 09: 51
                  “I don’t understand what you’re trying to prove. Advantages of soim over dragrakars?"
                  Once again I repeat that there are no differences between soima and the drakar. Not only that, if the prince of Novgorod had oranges on the table, and in the menagerie there were monkeys and cheetahs, which has already been proved by archaeological finds during excavations of the Rurik settlement, then what can you prove that the Viking dragar is flooded in Danish fjords, and not the Novgorod soim.
                  1. +1
                    19 June 2018 11: 39
                    Quote: Yura Yakovlev
                    I repeat once again that there are no differences between the soyma and the drakar.

                    Yes, you can repeat the same thing a hundred times. The meaning of this will not increase. I thought you were able to figure out the differences between the soyma and Drakkar themselves, you only need to show even the most superficial interest. Although I do not even know whether to compare them, because in the Viking Age about soymas no one had heard anything yet. They will appear only after a couple of hundred years.
                    But if you want differences - if you please.
                    The soyma is intended for movement along major rivers and lakes, as well as in the coastal zone of closed seas, since the Russians simply did not have any other seas. The Baltic, White and Black Seas are all inland. Based on the existing tasks, the ship was built small (so as not to sweat on the portages), relatively high-breasted and spacious (so as not to go twice), had, as a rule, two masts with oblique sails and up to six pairs of oars. The ratio of length and width could be 3: 1. To move on the inland seas and large rivers it was enough.
                    Drakkar - a warship designed to sail in the open sea and even in the ocean, for the Vikings across the Atlantic and Gibraltar went to the Mediterranean Sea. Its length could be two or three times the length of the largest soyms, while the width was comparable. The number of pairs of oars could exceed twenty. In addition, the Drakkar carried one mast with a straight sail and had devices for increasing the sides - it was necessary only in combat to protect against shooters.
                    To write nonsense about the fact that soyms and Drakkar are not different from each other, this, it seems to me, is overkill. If you are such an expert on the Priilmenskoye or Ladoga shipbuilding, look at the soyma (they, it seems, began to be built again according to old drawings) and on drakkars in Vyborg. Much will become clear to you and the desire to put forward such controversial, to put it mildly, theses will certainly disappear.
                    You could not find all this on the network yourself - the information is on the surface and is easily verified.
  6. +3
    13 June 2018 16: 11
    Quote: Operator
    Everything is much simpler: the hull is essentially a V-shaped beam, the higher the beam wall (that is, the sides of the ship's hull), the greater the bending moment it can withstand.

    Viking dragons and Rooks of the Slavs were low-breasted and could withstand less bending moment than, for example, the Mediterranean triremes, quadriremes and quinquires.

    Oh, these spherical horses in a vacuum ...
  7. 0
    13 June 2018 18: 05
    The length of the ship exceeds 36 meters, which is four meters more than the length of the flagship of Henry VIII Mary Rose, which was built five centuries later. On board the ship could take 100 warriors, who in turn rowed 39 pairs of oars, if suddenly the wind for his woolen square sail was not enough. On board it was crowded, I had to sleep, sitting between my chests, and there was also very little room for supplies. Therefore, they took them to a minimum and only one way, since swimming was short-lived.

    Hmm, fun!
    So, the length of the ship exceeds 36 meters. If it is not written that the length of the ship is 37 meters, then the length is 36 meters and there are 10 or 15 centimeters. And there were supposedly 100 warriors on it, who in turn rowed 39 pairs of oars.
    Further. There is such a thing as completeness coefficients - numerical indicators characterizing the completeness of the contours of a ship ... okay, simpler ... in short, any ship (except for round flies, which were built 2 pieces) has bow and stern contours, where the rowers have nowhere to stay. Actually, to this day, rowers sit only on a flat side. How long is a flat side? Judging by the photo and the laws of shipbuilding, bow and stern contours occupy from 20 to 30% of the length of the ship's hull. Well, take the minimum - 20%. Total subtract from 36 meters 7, 2 meters = 29 meters.
    I would very much like to invite the author of the article himself and his colleagues, professional historians, to board such a ship and grab 39 pairs of oars. fool
    Next.
    since swimming was short-lived.

    Hmm ... what about the "well-known" professional historians of Viking voyages to Iceland, Greenland and North America itself. After all, it could only be such ships.
    1. 0
      17 June 2018 12: 34
      And the Vikings didn’t swim there on dragrakars ... These are military transport ships ..
      1. 0
        1 July 2018 21: 12
        Quote: kalibr
        And the Vikings didn’t swim there on dragrakars ... These are military transport ships ..

        Yes, on the Knorra.
  8. -1
    13 June 2018 21: 05
    Those. At one time, the superdrakkar was about the cost of F35 ..
    1. +3
      13 June 2018 21: 49
      each time has its own "wunderwaffles" request
  9. 0
    15 June 2018 13: 11
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Finds of these same dragrakars?

    All finds are approximately like this




    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Drawings with these same dragrakars?


    Drawings? What specific drawings are you talking about? Can you show the pictures?
    1. +1
      15 June 2018 18: 05
      Quote: Seal
      Can you show the pictures?

      Offhand - a carpet from Bayo. Met and yet, do not immediately remember.
  10. 0
    15 June 2018 14: 55
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    They are modeled on the Gokstad ship.

    Somehow far from the "sample", huh? Pay attention to the "sample" stem.
    1. +2
      15 June 2018 18: 08
      I don’t understand something — what do you want to prove? That there were no Vikings with their drakars at all? What were they really Russian? Or that one home-grown wiseacre knows most of the questions better than hundreds of professionals?
  11. 0
    15 June 2018 15: 17
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Even on maps in the history books of the 80s for the fourth grade, this territory is designated as the territory of the settlement of the Western Slavs.

    What textbooks are you talking about? German or ours? In ours is. But in German - no. And in Danish no. Is it possible on the basis of our textbooks for the 4th grade (hmm, but what, does history begin in the 4th grade) to consider that the question is unambiguously clear for the whole world.
    1. +2
      15 June 2018 18: 38
      Quote: Seal
      But in German - no. And in Danish no.

      I didn’t read, I don’t know. Have you read? Can you show? It would be interesting to get acquainted with at least maps of them.
      Quote: Seal
      (hmm, but what, does the story begin in the 4 class)

      Estimate, in 80's. started from the fourth ...
      Quote: Seal
      the question is clear for the whole world.

      Do you seriously think that the whole world cares? Do not tell my slippers. Those who are interested - know everything perfectly, and the rest of such subtleties absolutely to the lamp.
      By the way, as far as I know, the majority of Germans living on the shores of the Baltic know very well that the Slavs lived there before them, and this knowledge does not prevent them from considering this land theirs. And do you think that they should pay us money for renting land or repent from morning to night, that their unreasonable ancestors conquered this land? So I will disappoint you - you won’t wait, especially since the descendants of those who conquered and those whom they conquered live there approximately equally.
  12. 0
    15 June 2018 15: 25
    Quote: Operator
    But for this I had to pay a reduced longitudinal strength of the body.

    Therefore, all modern transitions of "dragokars" across the ocean, and not only across the ocean, but in general all outlets to the sea, are made out with all precautions, in fact, as a one-time crossing. Necessarily in good weather and accompanied by a rescue tug.
    Yes, sometimes it is not required. But sometimes the Atlantic Ocean, some managed to swim almost in the bath. True, again, accompanied by a rescue vessel.
  13. 0
    15 June 2018 17: 03
    Quote: Curious
    "... he created a number of shipbuilding formulas that can still be applied ... "
    Aleksey Nikolaevich Krylov is the author of classical works on the theory of ship oscillations on waves, on the ship’s structural mechanics, the theory of ship vibration and unsinkability, on the theory of gyroscopes, external ballistics, mathematical analysis and mechanics as applied to shipbuilding, on the history of physical, mathematical and technical sciences and so forth and so forth and so forth. Founder of the modern Russian school of shipbuilding, a value of truly world significance ..

    If professional historians had understood at least a tenth of what Alexei Nikolaevich wrote, then at least 75% of the “historical works” on the theme of ancient and other ancient navigation would have disappeared.
    1. +1
      17 June 2018 12: 04
      Oh, another subvert. And where do they just come from.
  14. +1
    17 June 2018 12: 36
    Quote: Yura Yakovlev
    But their monumental-sized fights were on the river bottom

    They were on the river bottom because they were stuffed with stones and flooded on the fairway. Like the Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol in the Crimean War.
  15. 0
    17 June 2018 20: 25
    Here is the Ilmen soyma fishing boat. Why is she worse than a fight?
  16. 0
    1 July 2018 21: 08
    Well, dear Vyacheslav, you, as usual, are on the cutting edge of military-historical history! This level of research on the Russian-speaking Internet is a rarity!

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned)

“Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"