Why and how did the T-64, T-72 and T-80 tanks appear? Part of 3

65
In the making tank T-64 due to difficulties in its development began both technical and organizational confrontation. There were fewer supporters, and serious opposition began to mature. Despite the adoption of the decree on the production of T-64 at all plants, at UVZ under the guise of a mobilization tank, they tried to create their own version as opposed to the T-64.





By that time, the documentation for the reserve version of the tank (object 435), which was developed and tested at the KMDB, was transferred to the UVZ. She carefully analyzed, evaluated the comments received during the tests and worked out ways to eliminate them.

The main emphasis was placed on a simplified version of the tank and the use of existing or used components and systems to the maximum during a failed attempt to modernize the T-62. It looked like work aviation designers Tupolev and Myasishchev. The first created aircraft, relying on his own groundwork and the experience of competitors, and the second created everything from scratch and did not always achieve success.

Considering the problems of the T-64 on the engine, the MV and the chassis, the exhaust engine B-45 with the power 730 hp was installed. with fan cooling system, automatic loader with conveyor ammunition and more powerful undercarriage. The comments on the T-64 were taken into account, the design was often simplified to a limit with a lowering of the tank performance characteristics and higher reliability was provided.

The first samples were created by remaking the T-64, then they began to make their prototypes and prototypes. Changes to the T-64 documentation were prohibited. There was a case with me at the beginning of 70-x, then a letter came from UVZ asking to fix the detected error in the drawing. My boss forbade me to do this with the words: "We will solve this issue ourselves."

The military supported this work, up to two dozen tanks were manufactured, factory and military tests were conducted. Thus, the “172 object” tank appeared not as a new tank, but as a mobilization variant of the T-64.

As a result, there appeared two diversified tanks developed by TTT for the T-64 tank. In accordance with the directive documents, T-64 batch production should be organized in three plants, and T-72 did not fit into this. On this issue in the leadership of the Ministry of Defense, the Ministry of Defense, the Central Committee and the military industrial complex there are two groups.

Higher party and state leadership and ministers supported T-64, and the leaders below in the GBTU, the military-industrial complex and the Central Committee relied on T-72. Mostly, the undercover struggle of these two groups was resolved in unexpected ways, creating problems for many decades.

In pursuance of the resolution on serial production of T-64, a resolution was prepared on the creation of production facilities for this. This decision was prepared by the military-industrial complex officer Kostenko.

I had to meet with him several times behind the Kremlin wall in the development of the tanker "Boxer", and he always tried to delve deeply into the question under consideration.

Kostenko was a member of a group of people who advocated the idea of ​​serialization of the T-72 tank. In his book, Tanks (Memories and Reflections), he describes this episode in detail.

This group has set a goal in the prepared document, distorting its essence, and indirectly to carry out a decision on the serial production of T-72. We give the word Kostenko:

“Nevertheless, supporters of the 172 object appeared in the Ministry of Defense, the Ministry of Defense Industry, and the State Planning Committee (in the military-industrial complex and the Central Committee, too). There were not many of them; in each "office" they could be counted on the fingers of one hand.
Thus, a group of like-minded people gradually formed, in which each acted within the limits of his personal abilities and official powers, while not advertising the “172 object”. ”


They chose the time of its signing, when their opponents went on vacation: Ustinov (secretary of the CPSU Central Committee), Zverev (minister of the defense industry). Dmitriev (deputy head of the department of defense industry of the Central Committee of the CPSU) and Kuzmin (head of the department of armament of ground forces of the military-industrial complex). As noted by Kostenko, “the absence of top officials was of particular importance in the situation with the draft decree.”

They forged a government document in such a way that:

“Reading this, anyone who wasn’t dedicated to the subtleties couldn’t (even after reading the full text of the resolution) imagine that the purpose of this resolution was to ensure the creation of production capacities at UVZ and ChTZ that allowed 1969 of the year from 1971 in January start serial production of new tanks "object 1".


He particularly admires how beautifully they did everything:

“The first, second, third page - but then I got to the place where there was an item on the tank's mobile option. This item has disappeared from the text! Instead, a new, formally changed the essence of the decision. In the new paragraph it was recorded that the Ministry of Defense is exempt from the task of organizing the serial production of T-64 at UVZ ”.


So in May 1970 of the year appeared the decree "On measures to create capacity for the production of T-64A tanks", and in fact on the preparation of serial production of the T-72 tank. Through the efforts of a number of high-ranking officials and the military, a decision was made that ran counter to the general tank-building line approved by the government to create a single T-64 tank. This document, contrary to the interests of the state, made it possible to launch into production two practically identical tanks.

In 1972, the installation batch of T-72 tanks was launched, factory and military tests were conducted, and in August 1973, the tank was adopted. This was the first not entirely clean blow to Morozov, which did not allow him to realize the idea of ​​creating a single tank.

In parallel with the work on equipping the T-64 tank with the B-45 engine at the LKZ, work was done on installing the GTD-3L tank with the 800 hp power on this tank. GTDs were installed on converted T-64. Tests showed that the suspension with a significant change in dynamic loads does not withstand, and LKZ began to develop and test their version of the suspension.

As a result of the conducted test cycle, the principal possibility of creating a tank with a gas turbine engine was proved. According to the results of these works, in June 1969 of the year a resolution of the Central Committee of the CPSU and the Council of Ministers on the creation of a gas turbine power plant for the T-64 tank was issued. The organization of the serial production of the T-64 tank with a CCD was envisaged at the LKZ.

In 1972, comparative troop tests of three T-64, T-72 and T-80 tanks are conducted. Tests showed approximately equal characteristics of the tanks, but the decision on their future fate was not taken.

By the middle of the 70, the epic with the T-72 began to subside, but another one was unfolding, with the gas-turbine T-80. With the appointment of Ustinov as Minister of Defense, the positions of Romanov and Ryabov in the political elite of the country are strengthened, and with their support, the tank begins to be forced through the GTE.

At this time, the efforts of the KMDB were focused on the creation of the fighting compartment of the T-64B tank with a fundamentally new Ob fire control system and the Cobra guided weapons complex, which made it possible to get a serious lead over other firepower tanks.

Considering that T-80 seriously lagged behind T-64B in all parameters, it was decided to seriously “strengthen” it in a very original way. During factory tests of the T-64B (I was a participant in these tests), the turret is removed from one tank and placed on the T-80 hull, and all the other tests pass two different tanks, T-64B and T-80B.

According to the results of tests in 1976, two tanks are accepted for service. So, in addition to the already crushed T-72 gets a start in life and T-80B, so even with the most perfect at that time weapons complex. This was the second blow to Morozov, after which he retired.

Realizing that with three tanks "you can’t live like this anymore," Ustinov organizes the most powerful troop tests of three tanks, as they were called, "cockroach races" in 1976. According to their results, T-64 and T-80 were approximately equal, and T-72 lagged behind them. I repeatedly read the test report; I was surprised by the unreasonable dissenting opinion of Venediktov that T-72 deserves a better mark.

According to the test results at the very top, the decision is made to promote the T-80 in the same original way. We decided to make one of the two tanks T-64B and T-80B. In December 1976, the decision of the MIC to create a single improved tank T-80U. The head of the tank LKZ, develops a body with a GTE power 1200 HP, and the KMDB - fighting compartment with a new weapon system. This tank was planned to be put into mass production in Leningrad, Omsk and Kharkov.

Works on the 6TD engine in Kharkov were practically banned, and a decree of the Central Committee and the Council of Ministers launched the construction of a plant in Kharkov for the production of a new CCD for T-80U. The construction of the plant without elaborated documentation for the CCD was an adventure. The plant was practically built, they began to order the most complicated equipment, it was worth the inconceivable money. As a result, the GTE was never developed, everything was thrown to the wind, and no one answered for the senseless use of funds.

Joint development of LKZ and KKBM tank T-80U on the basis of the existing GTE hp 1000. and the new sighting system "Irtysh" with laser-controlled armament "Reflex" was successfully completed, and after testing in December 1984, the tank was put into service.

After the death of Ustinov in 1984 and the withdrawal from the political Olympus of Romanov, who promoted the idea of ​​a gas turbine tank, priorities began to change dramatically. Everyone suddenly saw the light: there is no point in promoting a tank with a problematic gas turbine engine in the presence of an 6TD engine of the same power!

Back in 1976, on the basis of 6TD horsepower 1000. A modernization project for the T-64B tank (476 object) was developed, but it was postponed, as T-80U was ordered to do. The problems that started with the CCD forced in June 1981 of the year to decide on the development of the T-80U tank with the 6TD engine. This is the “476 object” from the “Leningrad” chassis.

Tests of this tank were successfully conducted on the Kubinka. In September, the T-1985UD tank with the 80TD engine 6 hp is put into service on 1000 of the year. (478 object). Almost ten years later, they returned to a two-stroke engine tank!

At this long-term saga of the advancement of the tank with GTE came to the finish. It turned out that for this there are no technical prerequisites. The T-80UD tank was mass-produced in Kharkov; in total, about 700 tanks were launched. As the head of the GBTU Potapov recalled, a draft decree on the phased transition of all plants to the production of T-XNUMHUD was prepared and approved, but the Union collapsed and the tank turned out to be abroad.

T-80UD and T-72 tanks unexpectedly had to prove their advantages in other conditions. In 1996-1999, Ukraine delivered 320 T-80UD tanks to Pakistan, and its main rival, India, operated T-72 tanks. Reviews in these countries about the tanks were not in favor of the latter.

In conclusion, it should be noted that if in the period 1968 — 1973. There was a keen competition of T-64 and T-72 tanks, then in 1975 — 1985. - T-64 and T-80. It so happened that after 1973, the T-72 faded into the background. All new developments somehow bypassed the side of the UVZ, on the modification of these tanks was introduced mainly what has already been tested on the T-64 and T-80. Why it happened, I do not quite understand, but it was the case.

By many estimates, the T-64, T-72 and T-80 tanks and their modifications are tanks of the same generation, approximately with equal TTX. They are equipped with the same weapons, but are disunited according to the conditions of production and operation. You can find out for a long time which of them is better, but there is no doubt that Morozov laid down their concept.

Decades have passed, and disputes about this generation of tanks have not abated. In these disputes, we sometimes cross the line where objectivity ends. Therefore, all of us, especially my colleagues from Nizhny Tagil, need a more balanced, objective approach to tank estimates. I also allowed myself sometimes harsh judgments, not always objective. It does not do us honor. We did a common thing, we have something to be proud of!

With all the costs of the formation of these tanks, they, of course, had to be developed, manufactured and tested. According to test results, to make objective and honest conclusions and leave in serial production one, as it was foreseen. But the leaders of the state, industry and the military did not have the courage to stop and make decisions in the interests of the state and the army.

It has long been time to create a new generation of tanks, taking into account the experience of creating the previous generation of tanks and the unfinished project to create a promising tank "Boxer". Now the project of the Armata tank is reaching the finish line, and there is something to discuss, but so far there is little information.

The purpose of this article was not to study the characteristics of tanks, it has long been done. The focus was on the process of creating this generation of tanks and the circumstances affecting the adoption of fateful decisions. I wanted to show how difficult and ambiguous was the formation of tanks: after all, their progress was influenced not only by technical characteristics, but also by other considerations far from technology.
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  1. Ber
    +8
    5 June 2018 05: 19
    By many estimates, the T-64, T-72 and T-80 tanks and their modifications are tanks of the same generation, approximately with equal TTX. They are equipped with the same weapons, but are disunited according to the conditions of production and operation. You can find out for a long time which of them is better, but there is no doubt that Morozov laid down their concept.


    This is a fact, A. Morozov after the T-44 and T-64 laid the foundation in the domestic tank building.

    Decades have passed, and disputes about this generation of tanks do not subside. In these disputes, we sometimes cross the line where objectivity ends. Therefore, all of us, especially my colleagues from Nizhny Tagil, need a more balanced, objective approach to tank ratings. I also allowed myself sometimes harsh judgments, not always objective. It does not do us honor. We did a common thing, we have something to be proud of!


    I would like to believe that they will stop shitting on each other.
    1. avt
      +4
      5 June 2018 07: 54
      Quote: Ber
      A. Morozov after the T-44 and T-64 laid the foundation for domestic tank building.

      Someone argues ???
    2. +3
      5 June 2018 11: 51
      hi The Chief Designer of tanks A.A. Morozov laid the foundation of the T-54 (55), and his contribution to the foundations of the T-34 is very significant!
      This is not to mention the fact that the T-72 and T-80 are basically based on the T-64! IMHO
      1. +7
        5 June 2018 13: 12
        Quote: pishchak
        based on the T-64! IMHO

        What, specifically, is the basis, IMHO?
        I don’t want to prove anything already, but nevertheless. The author admits omissions and, conversely, statements from which we can really draw a conclusion;
        Quote: Alex_59
        In general, all are bad, some Kharkovites are good. Clear.

        For example, the author praises the T-64B with the CRMS and the advanced LMS, but after all, the same LMS and the CRMS could be put on the T-72 ...
        Probably, again, you need to judge by deeds.
        The T-72 and its modifications up to the T-90 passed a severe test and won a place under the sun in many countries of the world.
        Only Pakistan bought the T-64 and in the face of the T-80UD modification, having taken into account the comparative cheapness of the modern MBT model, and now this is its cross ..
        Although, however, the car is also quite good, especially the BO, and the engine is easy to change, if it is, of course, available. wink
        But the question is what kind of model is better in terms of the totality of characteristics, which machine should have been adopted as an MBT, and not that the T-64 is worthless equipment. Suitable with minor and not very restrictions. Yes
        1. +5
          5 June 2018 13: 56
          ...... According to many estimates, the T-64, T-72 and T-80 tanks and their modifications are tanks of the same generation, with approximately equal performance characteristics. They are equipped with the same weapons, ....... You can find out for a long time which one is better, but there is no doubt that Morozov laid down their concept.

          In general, yes. But judging by the fact that after the collapse of the USSR, when all restrictions on the export of tanks disappeared, the T-64 could not be sold to anyone, and the T-72 flew like hot cakes. It turns out the concept of the T-64 is clearly flawed, and the concept of V.N. Venediktov (UVZ) was more correct.
          1. +4
            5 June 2018 20: 33
            Quote: Bad_gr
            It turns out the concept of the T-64 is clearly flawed, and the concept of V.N. Venediktov (UVZ) was more correct.

            Yes, they have the same concept, but the performance is different. And no matter what anyone says, but the T-80, here’s the logical development of the T-64 .. and it’s not surprising that he replaced it on the assembly line
        2. +1
          5 June 2018 14: 00
          For example, the author praises the T-64B with the CRMS and the advanced LMS, but after all, the same LMS and the CRMS could be put on the T-72 ...
          [b] [/ b] These are the political intrigues of the nomenclature, which, according to the motto, that the T-72 tank, a tank of the military period, doesn’t need anything, alas the story is cruel.
        3. +4
          5 June 2018 20: 31
          Quote: Alekseev
          For example, the author praises the T-64B with the CRMS and the advanced LMS, but after all, the same LMS and the CRMS could be put on the T-72 ...

          hi Colleague, I'm sorry, but how do you imagine the Cobra in the T-72? How to shove a rocket in AZ?
          1. +2
            8 June 2018 18: 48
            What is so special about it? KURV "Reflex" standard weapon on the T-72B. Or is there a small rocket?
            There is even such information:
            "T-72B-2 (vol.184-2) Ave. MO No. USSR 009 1985. The KURV 9K112" Cobra "and the SUO 1A33 were installed, the automatic loader was modernized. It was adopted, but it was not mass-produced and did not enter the army. "
            1. +2
              8 June 2018 18: 54
              Quote: eburg1234
              What is so special about it? KURV "Reflex" standard weapon on the T-72B. Or is there a small rocket?

              I like it when, from the point of the MODERN state of affairs, I try to perceive what I had before. When did the Reflex appear with its compact rocket? How many previously had the Cobra in service with us? Namely, the fact that it was and influenced the decision to install the MOH, and not the AZ in the T-80.
              Quote: eburg1234
              T-72B-2 (vol. 184-2) Ave. Ministry of Defense of the USSR No. 009, 1985. The KURV 9K112 “Cobra” and the SUO 1A33 were installed, and the automatic loader was modernized. Adopted, but not serially produced and did not enter the troops. "
              It's EVEN FUNNY TO DISCUSS. The already morally and virtually obsolete “Cobra” in 1985 was finally “shoved” by AZ. BRAVO UVZ. I would like to take a look at this Miracle. Only for what? Already in 1986, we studied at the school the REFLEX complex on the T-80U, and at the UVZ almost at the same time, the T-72B went with the Svir KUV
              And only on January 23, 1985, by order of MO No. 009, the T-72B ("Object 184") and T-72B2 ("Object 184-2") tanks with the Svir and Cobra guided weapons systems were adopted respectively. The T-72B was considered the main option, and the T-72B2 - the backup, they planned to release it until the production of Svir and missiles for this complex was launched. However, by 1985, the Cobra was already considered hopelessly outdated and therefore, until the Svir’s stable deliveries, the T-72B1 tanks (Object 184-1) were completely removed from the UVZ assembly line without any KUV. In addition, the release of Svir was also limited, so until the very end of serial production of the T-72, along with the T-72B, the T-72B1 continued to be produced.

              https://topwar.ru/9920-kobra-dlya-t-72.html
              1. +1
                8 June 2018 20: 11
                Ie you agree that with the thesis "How to shove a rocket into a AZ?" you, to put it mildly, got into a puddle?
                1. +1
                  8 June 2018 20: 18
                  Quote: eburg1234
                  Ie you agree that with the thesis "How to shove a rocket into a AZ?" you, to put it mildly, got into a puddle?

                  Sorry, but you got into a “puddle”, trying to pass off your statements as mine ... The conversation was about “Cobra”, but it is not at all that “Reflex” and I would like to see what they did to it and how. ..and then we'll talk. The design of the "Cobra" is such that it is very important there how it will be connected before the shot, for which it is made "breakable", for the Ministry of Health
                  And most importantly, no one answered, why it had to be done in 1985 ...
                  1. 0
                    8 June 2018 20: 26
                    Done. You can talk with cockroaches in your head (how, why and when).
                    1. +1
                      10 June 2018 08: 07
                      Quote: eburg1234
                      You can talk with cockroaches in your head (how, why and when).

                      Yes, you seem to have a RICH life experience communicating with them ...
            2. 0
              10 June 2018 08: 22
              Quote: eburg1234
              Installed KURV 9K112 "Cobra" and SUO 1A33, upgraded automatic loader.

              Here is your "cockroach" and the answer ... AZ is not full-time, MODERNIZED. Do not cram a regular "Cobra" in AZ, under any conditions, since it is a long solid rocket that has the ability to break. When it was loaded into the MOH, it was necessary to clearly position it in the tray, for which it was necessary to find a bright red insert on its body and install the rocket exactly vertically upwards. After that, snap the locks of the tray and remove this insert from the body of the rocket. How to do this in a regular AZ T-72? Yes, NO. This requires a new rocket, albeit simply upgraded, but they did it, later this Cobra-2 turned into the Ukrainian Combat, which was already controlled not by radio beam, but with the help of a laser.
              And their TUS is more powerful than our INVAR
        4. +1
          5 June 2018 20: 43
          Quote: pishchak
          based on the T-64! IMHO
          What, specifically, is the basis, IMHO?
          hi The basis is obvious, comrade Alekseev! Yes
        5. +2
          8 June 2018 10: 01
          Until the collapse of the Union, the T-64 was a secret machine and was only armed with the SA and therefore it was not known in the world, and the T-72 was exported ... and it was in demand ... although the T-55 tanks were more in demand and T-62M even now ... an example is the war in Syria. they are easier to manage. Do you want Hochma ... APU ... put forward the requirements of the HCBM to modernize the T-64 ... remove the MZ and put 4 members ... of the loader ... since all T-55 and 62 have already been sold .. and the Selyuks cannot control the tank’s FCS T-64B and BM Bulat
          1. +1
            8 June 2018 12: 01
            Maybe the problem is not in intelligence, but in some components that were produced in Russia and are now unavailable? Which gradually led to the unsuitability of the OMS. In Ukraine, a lot of nasty things and nonsense is being done, but it is not worth considering the employees on these tanks as degenerates incapable of mastering the management of the OMS.
            1. 0
              9 June 2018 15: 39
              in Ukraine, they closed the production cycle of tank components ... but the APU personnel cannot operate the tanks ... they can’t turn on the MOH, and even more so eliminate a simple breakdown ... so often charging is in manual mode ... and operation MSA ... this is a separate song ... so there are practically no trained crews .. they can shoot and ride ... but not fight.
              1. 0
                9 June 2018 19: 36
                Maybe because there are no people left who can teach?
              2. 0
                16 June 2018 19: 49
                https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3239652.html
                We carefully read and listen to what they say on the Video ... there is confirmation of my words, though the conversation is on the T-84 ... but the Bulat tank is similar, only the engine is even less powerful and there is no power unit
          2. 0
            8 June 2018 20: 20
            Quote: tank-master
            although the T-55 and T-62M tanks were more in demand

            No, the T-62 has never been in special demand, it’s far from the T-55
            1. 0
              8 June 2018 20: 30
              T62 on a large scale was delivered to Iraq.
              http://btvt.narod.ru/2/iraq_iran3.htm
              Delivered to Libya, Angola, Cuba, but much more ...
            2. +1
              9 June 2018 15: 41
              I do not agree ... Syria example .. use T-62M with pleasure
    3. -1
      20 June 2018 19: 09
      Yes, they have a different engine, everyone has one unit 5TDFA 5-cylinder diesel engine. The second one, a la B 12, was boosted by supercharging and a T-80 gas turbine .. Well, then the t-80-U (Ukrainian) appeared with a V-12 diesel engine with supercharging. All completely different cars. And the location of the ammunition and the chassis. Here, as it has long been true, they described the discharge of caterpillars from the T-64 in sharp turns because of their small rollers .. What the T-72 does not observe .. Different cars, definitely.
      1. +1
        24 June 2018 07: 55
        T-80U developed in Leningrad (produced in Omsk).
        The T-80UD - a version of this tank with a 6TD diesel engine and remote ZPU - was developed and produced in Kharkov.
        No one put a B-12 on the T-80U (improved, not Ukrainian). There was a pilot seven-wheeled prototype T-80 (a backup version of a gas turbine tank) with a Chelyabinsk X-shaped 2B-16, it did not go into series.
  2. +9
    5 June 2018 07: 34
    In general, all are bad, some Kharkovites are good. Clear.
    1. +5
      5 June 2018 07: 52
      Everything is as usual,
      Korolev-Chelomey,
      Tupolev-Myasischev,
      1. 0
        18 August 2018 16: 23
        Polikarpov - Tupolev (his design bureau was a whole empire) - Yakovlev and a bunch of designers on a suction, such as Mikoyan, who took the finished design bureau from Polikarpov together with the finished airplane project, the future MiG-1 and MiG-3.
    2. +8
      5 June 2018 08: 49
      Quote: Alex_59
      In general, all are bad, some Kharkovites are good. Clear.

      ========
      I agree - the Author (certainly the person DESERVED and WELL AWARE !!) nevertheless sins with "subjectivity" !!!
      1. +4
        5 June 2018 10: 34
        Quote: venik
        nevertheless sins with "subjectivity" !!!

        For KB employees this is normal,
        protect their KB.
        Read the same Kostin, he started at UKBTM,
        T 72 has flaws in relation to the 80th and 64th,
        were not critical, but + there were more.
        Running stronger than the 64th, well, AZ, MZ,
        By the way, according to Kostin, Leningraders wanted to put
        Tagil AZ, well, at that time in N Tagil there was no extra AZ.
        To be in time, they took the Kharkov MH.
        6 TDF and GDT, were not used on engineering machines, UNIFICATION MAY BE FORGOTTEN.
        At 72, even caterpillars were used from 55 at first
        Why not save?
        So I personally disagree with the author, 64 and 80, would have pulled more money out of the economy,
        formula price, quality has not been canceled.
        72-KA fit them better into this formula.
        Well, like a cherry on the cake, you can say a lot, well, the one who wins wins.
        Where is HTZ and OMICHI now?
        And UVZ in those years was a very beautiful factory,
        thanks Okunev
        It’s clear with Kharkov, but in Omsk, those who have been there on business trips from Tagil residents,
        just were at a loss, the sheds dilapidated with holes in the roofs.
        But the Tagil residents were able to save the handsome UVZ.
        Like their cars.
        The end result is important, time has put everything in its place.
        1. +1
          5 June 2018 14: 14
          Quote: urman
          Well, like a cherry on the cake, you can say a lot, well, the one who wins wins.
          Where is HTZ and OMICHI now?

          Heh heh heh ... the Omsk plant generally became part of the UVZ.
          1. 0
            5 June 2018 15: 06
            About that and speech,
        2. +1
          6 June 2018 14: 21
          Quote: urman
          For KB employees this is normal,
          protect their KB.

          =======
          So I do not argue !!! Himself, once visited the "similar skin" !!!!
        3. 0
          8 June 2018 09: 46
          Moreover, KhTZ to tank building? At KhTZ, MTLBs were developed and manufactured and vehicles on its chassis passing through the GAU line, and tanks were made at ZTM named after Malysheva through GBTU
        4. 0
          18 August 2018 16: 31
          UVZ made a car which had a very large resource of modernization, and the T-64 with its chassis was limited in this, it was calculated under the mass of 34 tons, almost like Bradley now, which is not a tank at all. And in the T-64 there were many problems with the running weight and with the estimated weight, the tanks stood up for fun, waited their time and didn’t fight. The T-72 is constantly fighting, with all its shortcomings, the machine justifies itself in battles, with proper use it participates with dignity, there are practically no problems with the mechanics, there is insufficient reservation, but there are weak spots in modern tanks, and that’s a hundred years in the afternoon.
      2. +1
        5 June 2018 12: 12
        I want to note that my comments, and yours, also “sin” subjectivity, we are not gods, according to Babkina!
      3. 0
        6 June 2018 14: 00
        no no sin
        1. 0
          6 June 2018 14: 49
          Quote: aws4
          no no sin

          ======
          Yah??? So "does not sin" ??? Well then read OTHER experts !!!!
          1. +1
            6 June 2018 15: 11
            I read it several times ... by the way, the person wrote very carefully and the facts only confirm what he writes .. well, if you see it differently then write your article ..
      4. +1
        8 June 2018 09: 55
        point to subjectivity ... there are some inaccuracies ... but Yuri Apukhtin has just left the design bureau 22 years ago, which has erased object 80 in the memory of the T-478UD type .. although this is 478B, it’s trifles .. in general an objective article ... and the fact that many tank experts are trying to insert their 5 kopecks .. so this is normal ... everyone wants to shout and show their knowledge, or rather not knowledge
    3. 0
      6 June 2018 14: 00
      in general, re-read the article a few more races so as not to write nonsense
  3. +4
    5 June 2018 08: 46
    "...... In these disputes, we sometimes cross the line where objectivity ends. ......"
    ========
    Here With IT hard to disagree!!
  4. +12
    5 June 2018 08: 47
    Time has put everything in its place. Where is the T-64 and its direct descendants, and where is the T-72 with its own?
  5. +4
    5 June 2018 08: 49
    Earlier in the article, it was said that the T-80 chassis is the best of the three, the former officer in our team who had a chance to fight in the 1st Chechen one is in our team, so he’s both arms and legs behind the T-72, although in my opinion each of these tanks have their own advantages and disadvantages, and it would be right to compare them in the same configurations, with a similar engine power of the SOU armament (ZPU), then you can say which one is better, and not make a dummy out of one, and the second in progress.
  6. +6
    5 June 2018 08: 55
    Well, they wouldn’t rush with the T-64 and T-80, and there would be a single tank. As for the Pakistani T-80, the plant then actually accomplished the feat, putting them in general. Now he, fortunately, is not capable of this, there is nothing to press the padded coat horses on. Can we hope that the Pakistani tanks were at least somewhat better than the T-72, and even more so the T-90, which was then already?

    Sell ​​the same T-64 ex. The Ukrainian SSR was not able to anyone, although the T-72 sold hundreds, frantically dumping, but the figs, not theirs, were Moskalsky.
    1. +4
      5 June 2018 09: 57
      T-64 and the USSR did not sell to anyone, he gave it away, therefore those countries that exploited the 72nd were not particularly interested in the T-64 with a completely different filling.
    2. 0
      6 June 2018 14: 24
      Quote: EvilLion
      As for the Pakistani T-80s, the plant then actually accomplished the feat, putting them in general.

      =========
      Would you know HOW it everything happened!
      I once had a chance to LEARN !!!
      Madhouse !!!!!!
    3. +2
      8 June 2018 09: 48
      The T-80UD and T-90 had the same sighting system, but the MZ and AZ and chassis, respectively, were identical vehicles and only a better trained crew could win them
  7. +5
    5 June 2018 10: 40
    Always interested in the opinion of the "kitchen". A very interesting series of articles. And there is something to think about.
  8. +4
    5 June 2018 11: 26
    T-80UD and T-72 tanks unexpectedly had to prove their advantages in other conditions. In 1996-1999, Ukraine delivered 320 T-80UD tanks to Pakistan, and its main rival, India, operated T-72 tanks. Reviews in these countries about the tanks were not in favor of the latter.

    Yes of course. The Hindus ordered the T-72 upgraded to the T-90, and the packs update the tank fleet with Chinese cars.
    1. 0
      8 June 2018 09: 50
      Operating conditions in the desert showed the advantage of a two-stroke diesel engine .. but in general I wrote the same tanks above.
      1. +1
        8 June 2018 14: 10
        And the mountains work better too.
        Why then is Pakistan buying Chinese tanks?
        1. 0
          9 June 2018 15: 43
          Yes, Chinese tanks with MTO from the T-80UD ... again for the desert.
          1. +1
            9 June 2018 18: 52
            The latest version of the Chinese-proposed VT-4 tank with a Chinese engine refused 6TD.
            The same VT-4 went to Thailand (in fact, instead of the Bastions).
  9. +4
    5 June 2018 12: 05
    And with all this, Morozov is a real genius. T-44 and especially T-54 is a breakthrough, a tank which is still in demand.
    T-64 cannot be called a breakthrough despite high performance characteristics. Too expensive in the literal and figurative sense these values ​​were given. T-64 became more or less acceptable degenerated into T-80UD. Which took two not very good ideas from the T-64, the engine and vertical styling. The direct western competitor T-64, MVT, by the way, did not go into the series precisely because of the high cost and complexity of operation. And the MVT also served as a prototype for the two pillars of modern Western tank building, Leo-2 and Abrams, which are its simplified clones.
  10. +9
    5 June 2018 12: 26
    Ukraine delivered 320 T-80UD tanks to Pakistan, and its main enemy, India, operated T-72 tanks. Reviews in these countries about tanks were far from in favor of the latter.
    In Hindus, the manner of humbling any technique grows from another place. Out of malice. Perhaps they will throw off the price if you grumble all the time and be unhappy. If you listen to the Indians, then we deliver them only all kinds of junk. However, they continue to buy, not forgetting to bargain and diligently knocking down the price.
  11. +5
    5 June 2018 13: 55
    Thanks to the Author, but I have a request, it can cause anger and a storm of emotions among members of the forum, could you describe, since you can’t be called a “couch expert” or “cheers-patriot”, all the advantages and disadvantages of these tanks on Your opinion, it is your opinion, meticulously and cynically and calmly, without pathos and stinginess. Thanks again.
    1. +3
      5 June 2018 20: 29
      Quote: merkava-2bet
      Thanks to the Author, but I have a request, it can cause anger and a storm of emotions among members of the forum, could you describe, since you can’t be called a “couch expert” or “cheers-patriot”, all the advantages and disadvantages of these tanks on Your opinion, it is your opinion, meticulously and cynically and calmly, without pathos and stinginess. Thanks again.

      hi I fully support your, comrade Merkava-2bet, initiative request to the respected Article Author!
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. BAI
    +2
    5 June 2018 16: 09
    T-64, T-72 and T-80 tanks and their modifications are tanks of the same generation, with approximately equal performance characteristics

    And for me - when there is competition, this is for the better, especially for the Customer.
  14. +3
    5 June 2018 19: 15
    It turns out that T64 is an idea, a concept, with some critical drawbacks in the implementation, T80 is a kind of work on errors. and T72 is a poor relative who could only come to life because he was so "flawed". This is because it was precisely the lobby of the KHKM that would have crushed it if the UVZ officers were making the tank in full mincemeat. And in my opinion, with similar equipment, the T72 would at least not be inferior!
  15. +2
    7 June 2018 14: 35
    A similar situation with 3 tanks almost identical in terms of characteristics cannot be called anything but wrecking. Moreover, it was not done out of a desire to put briquettes of money in your pocket. And from the very best motivation, people are absolutely sure that their approach is the only true one. It’s good that time was more “herbivore”, and instead of rewriting the decision in their favor, they would write a denunciation about an anti-Soviet group of English pest spies weaving a plot to undermine Soviet tank building.
    1. 0
      8 June 2018 10: 05
      alas, yes ... there was wrecking .. but as experience has shown .. for different regions, tanks are needed different ... for the north of a gas turbine engine is a dream .. and a diesel engine, especially a 2-stroke one, is difficult to start, but in the desert, on the contrary ... 4 more tactful stroke ... but also running ... so the logic was in 3 cars.
      1. 0
        8 June 2018 12: 05
        Maybe it should be limited to one tank with two powerplant options.
        1. +1
          9 June 2018 15: 44
          I agree .. with you completely ... but this is history .. what was it was.

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