Military Review

Tanks EC-2 and Tiger. War on paper and in reality

311
There are many cases when the theory diverged from practice. A theoretical comparison of different combat vehicles led to certain results, and their collision in practice did not complete at all as expected. For example, during the years of World War II, the most massive and perfect Soviet heavy tank IS-2, having significant advantages over the German Pz.Kpfw. VI Ausf. H1 Tiger, sometimes could not finish the fight in his favor. Let's try to consider this technique and determine the reasons why ours could not always realize the advantages of our tanks.


Technique and its characteristics

The most massive Soviet heavy tank since World War II went into series at the end of the 1943 of the year. Production of machines such as EC-2 lasted until June 1945-th. In about a year and a half, the industry transferred 3385 tanks to the Red Army. For obvious reasons, some of the last series of tanks did not have time to get to the front. During operation, the units that had been equipped with the EC-2 lost a significant amount of such equipment. However, mass production covered all the losses and allowed to continue fighting. Moreover, the existing fleet of vehicles remained in service for many years after the end of the war; a significant number of tanks were transferred to third countries.


Soviet heavy tank EC-2 first version. It differs from the later machines by the characteristic frontal part of the body.


The EC-2 had the most powerful defense among all Soviet wartime tanks. Initially, such tanks had a frontal unit of sheets of thickness 60, 100 and 120 mm, installed at angles. In 1944, a new version of the forehead appeared with the upper frontal part 120 mm thick and the lower 100-mm. The boards had a thickness of 90 mm, feed - 60 mm. The tower received circular protection in the form of 100-mm armor. On the forehead there was also a mask of equal thickness. It should be noted that on some serial tanks, instead of rolled parts, cast parts were used, which were less resistant to fire.

The tank was completed with the 12-cylinder diesel engine B-2IS with the power 520 hp, which, with the combat weight 46 t, gave the specific power slightly more than 11 hp per ton. On the highway, the car accelerated to 35-37 km / h, on rough terrain - to 15 km / h. Provided overcoming a variety of obstacles.

Given the experience of previous battles, the IS-2 tank equipped 122-mm D-25T rifled gun, which, as expected, could effectively destroy any armored vehicles of the German army. D-25T was a redesigned version of the A-19 gun with some new elements. The guns of the first series had a piston slide, but at the beginning of 1944, it was replaced with semi-automatic wedge. To reduce the recoil momentum there was a muzzle brake. The gun used separate loading shots. A circular alignment was provided horizontally by turning the turret with the possibility of precise targeting with the help of separate mechanisms on the installation.


Reservation scheme of the tank EC-2. Top right shows the hull of the first version of the tank, below - later, with a recycled forehead


When using a sharp-headed caliber armor-piercing projectile of the BR-471 type, the D-25T cannon at a distance of 500 m at an encounter angle of 90 ° could penetrate 155 mm of homogeneous armor. At a distance of 1 km, armor penetration decreased to 143 mm. At twice the distance - up to 116 mm. Thus, the gun of the tank EC-2 in theory posed a great danger to almost all German armored vehicles. In some cases, a breakthrough had to occur with known consequences, in others - fatal damage to external units.

The tank ammunition included 28 shots of separate loading. Each projectile BR-471 weighed 25 kg, sleeve type Ж-471 with a variable charge - from 13,7 to 15,3 kg, depending on the material used. The need to work with large and heavy elements of the shot led to a reduction in the rate of fire to 3 shots per minute.

To control the gunner, the EC-2 used a TS-17 telescopic sight and a periscope PT4-17. From a certain time, serial tanks lost their periscope sight, instead of which they installed another viewing device. Situational awareness has improved, but the tank has lost the possibility of self-shooting from a closed position.


EC-2 with a new forehead in one of the domestic museums


The Pz.Kpfw became the most massive German heavy tank. VI Ausf. H1, also known as Tiger. This car went into series at the end of the summer 1942 of the year and was produced for two years, until August 1944. The tank turned out to be quite difficult to manufacture and expensive; for the entire production time, the industry manufactured only 1350 units of such equipment. From the beginning of service in the 1942 year to the end of the war, the German army lost the vast majority of such vehicles. The main losses, for obvious reasons, occurred on the Eastern Front and are the merit of the Red Army.

A characteristic feature of the Tigr tank was a powerful reservation. The front of his body consisted of rolled sheets 100, 80 and 63 mm thick, assembled in a box-shaped unit of recognizable shape. Boards were assembled from 80- and 63-mm parts, and the feed was 80 mm thick. The forehead of the tower was made of 100-mm sheet and was amplified by a mask of guns of variable thickness: from 90 to 200 mm. The side and stern of the turret had the same protection in the form of 80 mm armor.

Tanks of different series were equipped with Maybach HL12P210 and HL30P210 45 hp 700-cylinder carburetor engines. With a mass of 57 T, the Tiger tank had a specific power of no more than 13 HP. per ton. Without limiting engine speed, the tank could develop 44 km / h speed on the highway. On rough terrain, speed was limited to 22-25 km / h. The car had a fairly high permeability.

The main weapons German "Tiger" was a tank gun 8,8 cm KwK 36 L / 56 with a rifled barrel caliber 88 mm. The gun was equipped with a semi-automatic wedge bolt, an electric ignition system and a muzzle brake of a recognizable shape. With KwK 36, unitary shots 88x570 mm R were used, equipped with projectiles of various types. An important feature of the German gun was the flatness of the trajectory, which to some extent compensated for errors in the vertical guidance.


Shot components for the D-25T cannon (from right to left, shown on both sides): a cartridge with a propellant charge, a high-explosive fragmentation shell OF-471H, an armor-piercing BR-471 and an armor-piercing BR-471B


To destroy tanks, the KwK 36 gun could use several types of shells: two kinetic (one with a tungsten core, the other with a ballistic cap and an explosive charge) and a number of cumulative ones. The latter, under all conditions, punched up to 100-110 mm of homogeneous armor at a meeting angle of 90 °. The most effective projectile Pz.Gr.40 with a tungsten core at a distance of 500 m punched 200 mm of armor, on 1 km - 179 mm. At a distance of 2 km, he saved energy to destroy 143-mm obstacles. The Pz.Gr.39 projectile, assembled without the use of expensive materials, punched 151, 138 and 116 mm of armor, respectively, at the same distances.

German unitary shots with 88-mm projectiles had a length of more than 1150 mm and weighed slightly less than 21 kg. Ammunition KwK 36 guns included at least 90 shells. Later, German engineers found a way to bring it to 120 shells. Due to the relatively light shot with unitary loading, it was possible to obtain a technical rate of fire up to 6-8 rounds per minute.

Most of the tanks "Tiger" was equipped with binocular optical sights TZF-9b. On the machines of the latest series used products TZF-9c. The former had a fixed increase in 2,5x, while the multiplicity of the latter was regulated from 2,5x to 5x.

Advantages and disadvantages

It is easy to see that the most massive heavy tanks of the USSR and Nazi Germany had similar mobility and maneuverability, but at the same time they differed in the most serious way in terms of protection and armament. The simplest comparison of two tanks "on paper" shows in which areas the samples in question could have an advantage over each other.


Museum Tiger Tiger


The Soviet early-series EC-2 had frontal armor in the form of sheets 120, 100 mm and 60 mm thick, which, given the slope, gave a reduced thickness of about 195, 130 and 115 mm, respectively. Frontal unit tank Pz.Kpfw. VI Ausf. H did not have large installation angles, and therefore their reduced thickness remained at the level of 100-110 mm. However, for an inclined 80-mm sheet, this parameter reached 190 mm. However, the inclined part did not take up much space in the overall frontal projection of the tank, and therefore its effect on the overall level of protection was not decisive.

From the point of view of defense of the “on paper” tower, the two tanks are similar. At the same time, “Tiger” has an advantage in the form of a greater thickness of the tool mask, and the EC-2 tower is distinguished by thicker sides and aft.

In general, the advantage in the field of protection remains for the Soviet tank. However, we must bear in mind that the survivability of a combat vehicle depends not only on the characteristics of its armor, but also on the capabilities of the enemy’s weapons.

Depending on the series, the upper front sheet of the EC-2 with a reduced thickness from 195 to 240 mm, depending on the series, can be considered an extremely difficult obstacle for all KwK 36 cannons at reasonable distances. The situation could be corrected only by the most effective and expensive shell with a tungsten core. In turn, the EC-2 with a BR-471 projectile under ideal conditions could hit Tiger in frontal projection at distances of at least 1 km.


Frontal projection of the German tank: the slopes of the sheets are minimal


This should take into account the possibility of removing the enemy down without breaking armor. The fragments of the projectile that fell into the hull or tower, as well as embossed fragments of armor, were capable of damaging a weapon, optical devices, etc., at least disrupting the normal operation of the combat vehicle. Thus, during the tests, the D-25T gun not only penetrated the armor of the captured Tiger, but also made breaks in it, and was able to disrupt the turret from the shoulder strap.

The undoubted advantage of the German tank was a higher rate of fire associated with a smaller caliber of the projectile and other method of loading. In preparation for the shot, Soviet tankmen needed at least 20 with, while the German loader could manage for 8-10 with. Thus, the "Tiger" could quickly adjust the tip and make a second shot with greater accuracy. However, it is necessary to remember about the ratio of armor penetration of German projectiles and the characteristics of the EC-2 armor. In order for the second shot to lead to the defeat of the Soviet tank, the German "Tiger" should have been at a not very great distance from him.

The onboard projections of the EC-2 and the Tiger had protection in the form of 90 and 63-80 mm of armor, respectively. This means that both tanks could effectively hit each other at all distances taking place in a real battle. After a single well-aimed shot that hit the board, the enemy was put out of action, at least before the repair.

Tanks EC-2 and Tiger. War on paper and in reality
Loading unitary 88-mm shells into the tank


The German tank, distinguished by better mobility, could quickly reach a vantage point. On rough terrain, Tiger was able to reach speeds of up to 20-25 km / h, depending on the characteristics of the landscape. The maximum speed of the EC-2 was lower - up to 12-15 km / h. An experienced crew could use such an advantage to their advantage, and for insufficiently trained tankers without proper experience, additional kilometers per hour would not be of any use.

Thus, with a simple and superficial examination of the tactical and technical characteristics of two heavy tanks of the USSR and Germany, certain conclusions and assumptions can be made. EC-2 had advantages over Pz.Kpfw. VI Ausf. H Tiger in some characteristics, but lost in others. At the same time, he had serious advantages in terms of armor and weapons. German tankers in the event of a collision with the EC-2 would have to rely on better mobility and a higher rate of fire.

Clash in reality

It is known that the tanks EC-2 and Tiger repeatedly had to meet in battle since the spring of the year 1944. However, according to available data, such battles did not occur too often, since different tactical roles usually spread them across different sectors of the front. Nevertheless, certain information was kept about the collisions of heavy tanks of the two countries, which made it possible to examine the current situation and correct the earlier conclusions.

According to known data, for the first time the EC-2 met with Tiger tanks in April 1944 in the region of Ternopil. The tankmen of the 11-th separate Guards Heavy Tank Regiment were the first to accept the battle. Subsequently, this regiment and other parts repeatedly met with heavy German tanks and fought with them. For objective reasons, it is no longer possible to establish all the results of these battles, but it is known that both sides inflicted significant damage on each other.

Considering the available data on the collision of the "Tigers" and the EC-2, one can notice several main features of such fights. The tanks repeatedly attacked each other from a distance of the order of 1000-1500 m, and in such a fight the Soviet IS-2 defeated more often. In this case, there are cases when Tiger attacked a Soviet car from a distance of more than 1 km and punched the lower frontal part, which led to the ignition of the fuel tanks. However, at distances of more than 1 km, the advantage remained for the Red Army tankmen.

Fighting at smaller distances, despite the advantages of both tanks, proved difficult for both sides. At distances from the 400-500 to the 900-1000, the IS-2 and the Tiger could attack each other head-on with varying success and confidently hit the board. With a further reduction in the distance between the tanks, the chances of winning and survival were equalized. At the same time, in these circumstances, the role of mobility and rate of fire could probably increase. Accordingly, the potential of the German technology slightly increased.


German tankers are studying the dent in the armor of "Tiger". It was clearly not the gun of the tank EC-2


Thus, the two heavy tanks of the opposing sides seriously differed from each other in various design features and characteristics, which led to the emergence of various advantages over the enemy. However, in this context, there were quite serious problems. Not always the real battle clash with enemy tanks could go on the optimal scenario, allowing full use of its advantages. In practice, this led to the fact that the Soviet tankers tried to keep the Tigers away at a dangerous distance, but sometimes they themselves turned out to be too close to enemy positions.

Contribution to victory

Heavy tanks Pz.Kpfw. VI Ausf. H Tiger and EC-2 are not often met in battles, which was associated with different tactical roles of these combat vehicles. Because of this, other types of armored vehicles became their main opponents. And in this case, the Soviet heavy tanks showed themselves in the best way. The 122-mm gun made it possible to attack and destroy almost all the existing types of enemy equipment, while the powerful booking protected against many counter attacks. In addition, the EC-2 tanks were produced in significant quantities, which made it possible to strengthen the armored forces in the desired manner.

Of course, the heavy tanks of the EC-2 were not without flaws, and according to some characteristics they lost to the enemy equipment of their class, which led to losses. Nevertheless, the cars to be restored were returned to service, and the industry supplied the newly built equipment. In just over a year and a half of mass production, the Soviet Union built almost 3400 tanks of this type. 1350 German Tiger machines on this background do not look too convincing, and about 500 collected Tiger II could hardly correct the situation.

Ultimately, it was the IS-2 tanks that successfully supported the attack on the enemy’s positions and caused him the most serious damage, contributing to the advancement of the Red Army. Despite its drawbacks and advantages of the opposing party’s equipment, the Soviet armored vehicles made a significant contribution to the defeat of the enemy and the victory over Nazi Germany. Soviet tanks EC-2 along with other armored vehicles clearly showed how the high performance, quality and number of combat vehicles turn into a victory.

Based on:
http://armor.kiev.ua/
http://aviarmor.net/
http://battlefield.ru/
http://tiger-tank.com/
https://vpk-news.ru/
http://alanhamby.com/
http://russianarms.ru/
http://ww2data.blogspot.com/
Solyankin A. G., Pavlov M. V., Pavlov I. V., Zheltov I. G. Domestic armored vehicles. XX century. - M .: Exprint, 2005. - T. 2. 1941 – 1945.
Baryatinsky M.B. Heavy tank IS-2. Our response to the Tigers. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2006.
Author:
Photos used:
Wikimedia Commons, Federal Archives of Germany / bundesarchiv.de
311 comments
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  1. The comment was deleted.
  2. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 30 May 2018 05: 32
    +29
    Not the first comparison of these machines. According to the recollections of the tankers, the beaten Germans recall how they burned Isa in packs ... Ours, the winners, wrote that it was difficult to destroy the tiger, the enemy was a serious, but quite "tough" cannon of Isa. Since we won, we will consider tanks at least equal ... laughing it is clear that the training and skill of the crews played a decisive role in such duels.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 06: 13
      +38
      as for the quantity, it would be nice to take into account the Panthers with which the IS-2 is the same in mass, not with the Tiger, and especially not with the Royal Tiger
      it turns out that the ISs on the contrary were in a multiple minority, and the Germans had different self-propelled guns more than tanks, and they were more dangerous
      1. -Pollux
        -Pollux 30 May 2018 14: 00
        +5
        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
        it turns out that the ISs on the contrary were in a multiple minority, and the Germans had different self-propelled guns more than tanks, and they were more dangerous

        Cool, you compare one IS with all Wehrmacht armored vehicles, but in the Red Army, ISs were not the only type of armored vehicles.
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 14: 05
          +13
          about self-propelled guns it was written "too"
          mass IS-2 forgetting about more massive than he panthers, the author mentioned in vain
          she was more dangerous than a regular tiger
          1. -Pollux
            -Pollux 30 May 2018 14: 10
            +5
            Quote: YELLOWSTONE
            ro self-propelled guns it was written "too"
            mass IS-2 forgetting about more massive than he panthers, the author mentioned in vain
            she was more dangerous than a regular tiger

            This is not so, the combat stability of the panthers was even lower than the T-34.
            1. YELLOWSTONE
              YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 14: 13
              +13
              panther mobility is not worse, booking is not worse, and the gun is generally the best at that time
              1. -Pollux
                -Pollux 30 May 2018 14: 38
                +9
                Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                booking is not worse

                Surpassing a little T-34 in the frontal armor, the panthers were inferior to the same thirty-four in booking the sides.
                The panther’s ground pressure is 0.88 versus 0.62 for the thirty-four; what is the same mobility you say? They drive along the freeway equally, but on plowing the T-34 will bypass the panther like a standing one.
                1. YELLOWSTONE
                  YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 14: 52
                  +4
                  her defense board was no worse
                  a chronicle of panthers riding arable land
                  1. -Pollux
                    -Pollux 30 May 2018 15: 05
                    +4
                    Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                    her defense board was no worse

                    But in the literature they write that the thickness of the side armor of the panther was lower, though they write that the thickness of the frontal armor is higher, in general the reservation is about the same, but the panther is FIVE times harder. And the power reserve of the T-34 is one and a half times higher.
                    1. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 15: 31
                      +4
                      but even on Wikipedia that is not, and what could weigh so much there?
                      By the way, the tank was the same weight as the IS-2, so what does the T-34 have to do with it, compare it with the power reserve
                      1. -Pollux
                        -Pollux 30 May 2018 16: 43
                        +5
                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        but even on Wikipedia that is not, and what could weigh so much there?

                        This is another question, but in the end 44 tons of panther versus 29 tons of t-34.

                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        By the way, the tank was the same weight as the IS-2, so what does the T-34 have to do with it, compare it with the power reserve

                        They are equal in range, but the IS-2 has twice as much armor and the gun is more powerful, and the panther’s ground pressure is greater than the second.
                    2. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 17: 01
                      +4
                      in the end, in terms of combat effectiveness and danger, the panther was the best WWII tank
                      despite problems with alloying
                      just no one else had such a gun, only the British could get a little closer to it
                      1. -Pollux
                        -Pollux 30 May 2018 19: 49
                        +14
                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        in the end, in terms of combat effectiveness and danger, the panther was the best WWII tank

                        Yeah, according to the results of the fighting in Canada
                      2. aws4
                        aws4 31 May 2018 02: 19
                        +5
                        exactly!!!!! Panther’s gun served after WWII for a long time .. And the British, in my opinion, made their QF 17 pounder no worse .. in fact, these are the two best tank guns of WWII ... the USSR and the USA were catching up with the rest of the world))))))) )
                      3. Cannonball
                        Cannonball 1 June 2018 20: 02
                        +10
                        The best tank of World War II was the “thirty-four,” especially with an 85 mm cannon. It is simpler, more technologically advanced and cheaper than the Panther, with other completely comparable characteristics.
                      4. meandr51
                        meandr51 4 June 2018 11: 46
                        +13
                        Look, do not praise. The 75 mm gun had less armor penetration than the 88 mm gun. IS-2 kept her shell up to 500 m. Well, and to the heap. War is not a sport; troops do not fight according to the rules and equal teams. T-34s were quite suitable for the fight against Panthers and Tigers. The USSR made all armored vehicles many times more than the Euroreich. And he surpassed the Nazis in tactics and strategy. And cost and technology are no less important than performance characteristics.
                      5. YELLOWSTONE
                        YELLOWSTONE 5 June 2018 07: 32
                        +1
                        All German large-caliber guns for tanks before and after the kwk42 gun were made on the basis of anti-aircraft guns, so it was superior to them when firing subcaliber tungsten
                        the Germans had to start abandoning it on panthers only after the cessation of US supplies to the 3rd Reich through neutral countries due to the planned landing in Normandy
                      6. meandr51
                        meandr51 17 December 2018 17: 13
                        0
                        Discovery, perhaps admitted? He knows, he freed all of Europe ... But ours did not know that they were worse. Therefore, they made all the Europeans from the Euroreich.
                    3. Alf
                      Alf 30 May 2018 20: 01
                      +10
                      Quote: Pollux
                      But in the literature they write that the thickness of the side armor of the panther was lower,

                      Board Panthers-40 mm, board T-34-45. The difference is huge.
                      Quote: Pollux
                      But in the literature they write

                      Today I walked past the fence, so there it was written ... He looked, they lie, everyone lies, firewood.
                      1. -Pollux
                        -Pollux 30 May 2018 20: 17
                        +8
                        Quote: Alf
                        Today I walked past the fence, so there it was written ...

                        Well, if you got your education "on the fence", then it (this education) is really firewood.
                        Quote: Alf
                        Board Panthers-40 mm, board T-34-45. The difference is huge.

                        I repeat for the gifted, who did not understand the first time:
                        With equal protection, the T-34 was superior to the panther in maneuverability, and with equal maneuverability, the IS-2 was superior to the panther in protection and power of the gun.
                      2. YELLOWSTONE
                        YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 01: 31
                        +1
                        bottom to top do not compare
                        about maneuverability and a tool too aha, it’s a pity that without pictures Yes
                    4. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 02: 02
                      +1
                      and what do they write about engine power in the literature?
                      1. -Pollux
                        -Pollux 31 May 2018 11: 41
                        +6
                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        and what do they write about engine power in the literature?

                        Are you definitely not a Jew? Answer a question with a question. If you have something to say like that, write - the panther is such an engine, such a specific power and the 34-ki and ISa have such and such.
                      2. Vlad.by
                        Vlad.by 31 May 2018 12: 38
                        +15
                        And what do they write in the literature about the resource of engines and gearboxes?
                        You will now agree that the 75mm gun was better than 88 mm for the tiger and 85 mm for the T-34.
                        You see, tanks not only shot at tanks, there were also HE shells in ammunition, and in equal or even greater numbers. For what, interesting? And what could a 75 mm long-barrel even with good ballistics but with a weak HE shell do?
                        Don’t hang tags - the best, beautiful ...
                        All these best and beautiful ones burned down and rusted after getting blanks from the “worst” 85-k from T-34, 122-k from ISs and even from the banal three-inch from ZIS-3.
                      3. YELLOWSTONE
                        YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 12: 56
                        +1
                        I wrote it right away, you already agreed on the contrary
                        it’s not weak but rather weak, but the towed PT artillery lacked such OFS
                        and the balance of losses in the battles with the panther was far from in favor of Soviet tanks
                    5. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 31 May 2018 02: 16
                      +2
                      Quote: Pollux
                      But in the literature they write that the thickness of the side armor of the panther was lower, although they write that the thickness of the frontal armor is higher, in general, the reservation is about the same,

                      Throw away this literature. Booking T-34s and Panthers in frontal projection is not comparable. The sides are yes, the Panthers are weak.
                      Quote: Pollux
                      And the power reserve of the T-34 is one and a half times higher.

                      For fuel. The main thing is that the oil does not end earlier.
                      Quote: Pollux
                      I repeat for the gifted, who did not understand the first time:
                      With equal protection, the T-34 was superior to the panther in maneuverability, and with equal maneuverability, the IS-2 was superior to the panther in protection and power of the gun.

                      The defense, "maneuverability" and the Panther’s gun corresponded to the IS-1, not the T-34. And they were, perhaps, better.
                      1. -Pollux
                        -Pollux 31 May 2018 11: 49
                        +3
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Throw away this literature. Booking T-34s and Panthers in frontal projection is not comparable. The sides are yes, the Panthers are weak.

                        The forehead is larger for the panther, the side is thicker for 34 mm by 5 mm.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The defense, "maneuverability" and the Panther’s gun corresponded to the IS-1, not the T-34. And they were, perhaps, better.

                        It was about IS-2, they are of the same age, otherwise I will take the T-34-85 for comparison, and it hits the panther in all respects.
                        The thickness of the armor of the IS-2 is twice as large, the 122 mm gun is an order of magnitude more powerful than the 75-mm panther’s shotgun, and the maneuverability is the same.
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 31 May 2018 20: 10
                        +6
                        Quote: Pollux
                        the board is thicker at 34 matches by 5

                        Pak 40 no difference. Both cars are reserved on the side of the obsolete pre-war PT and PDA.
                        Quote: Pollux
                        otherwise I’ll take the T-34-85 for comparison, and it hits the panther in all respects.

                        Well, take it, if you are brave. Tell us, for a start, from what distance the Panther hit the T-34-85 in the frontal projection of a projectile of the BB of the Second World War. And as it was the other way around.
                        Quote: Pollux
                        The armor thickness of the IS-2 is twice as large

                        In one and a half VLD. The forehead of the tower is thicker at Panther.
                        Quote: Pollux
                        more powerful than 75 mm panther

                        This bullet almost three times surpassed the IS-2 gun in terms of ammunition and rate of fire, and penetrated the IS-2 BB into the tower from 1,5 km.
                  2. svp67
                    svp67 30 May 2018 15: 35
                    +6
                    Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                    her defense board was no worse

                    Here you always need to add, to some point. And this moment came when the Germans ran out of Swedish manganese and for alloying they began to use nickel, and in the end, and aluminum ..
                    1. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 16: 32
                      +3
                      then they cut the tungsten, and the jagdpanthers appeared
                    2. NF68
                      NF68 30 May 2018 20: 13
                      +4
                      Quote: svp67
                      Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                      her defense board was no worse

                      Here you always need to add, to some point. And this moment came when the Germans ran out of Swedish manganese and for alloying they began to use nickel, and in the end, and aluminum ..


                      The Germans and nickel with molybdenum was not very much.
                2. aws4
                  aws4 31 May 2018 02: 12
                  +6
                  Little? there is an opinion that the frontal 80mm inclined Patera armor held better than the 100mm Tiger .. remind me what kind of armor the T34 had?))))
                  1. -Pollux
                    -Pollux 31 May 2018 11: 55
                    +4
                    Quote: aws4
                    there is an opinion that the frontal 80mm inclined armor of Patera held better than the 100mm Tiger ..

                    This is such a joke, it's cool.
                    Three-star cognac, five-star, but what difference does it make, they pour from one barrel.
                  2. DimerVladimer
                    DimerVladimer 31 May 2018 12: 03
                    +3
                    Quote: aws4
                    Little? there is an opinion that the frontal 80mm inclined Patera armor held better than the 100mm Tiger .. remind me what kind of armor the T34 had?))))


                    T-VI protection does not match TV protection. The tilted arrangement of the frontal part on the TV definitely affected the projectile resistance.
                  3. NF68
                    NF68 1 June 2018 16: 00
                    +3
                    Quote: aws4
                    Little?


                    Yes exactly:





                    http://alternathistory.com/node/11683/190165


                    Already at the beginning of WWII German industry had to do without many materials:

                    Production of the BMW-801 could begin in the near future, and bringing and especially the organization of serial production of the more promising and powerful BMW-802 engine became extremely unlikely. The lack of many materials took place immediately after the outbreak of war. During the war, the situation with the supply of alloying materials became increasingly complicated, and their consumption for industrial needs per turnover grew rapidly. Then attempts began to replace the scarce alloying additives with materials that were available in the country. In January of the 1941 of the year, the first results were obtained: in total, 687 of engine parts began to be manufactured from materials that were mined in Germany or in countries occupied by Germany. 280 of them began to be made without preliminary lengthy verification. 460 parts previously manufactured from steel containing molybdenum began to be produced without molybdenum additives. In other 227 parts, 80 kg of copper, 20 kg of nickel, 3 kg of zinc, 0,5 kg of cadmium were saved. All this taken together led to the fact that the engine life of BMW-801 engines but at the beginning on average was only 20-25 hours, which significantly limited the combat effectiveness of the aircraft on which these engines were installed. To ensure obtaining ever higher powers, work on improving the engine was carried out simultaneously in the 2 directions: increasing power at low altitudes while maintaining a power reserve at medium heights and developing high-altitude engines.

                    http://alternathistory.com/aviatsionnye-dvigateli
                    -firm-siemensbramo-bmw-po-materialam-karla-preste
                    lya


                    Quote: aws4
                    there is an opinion that the frontal 80mm inclined armor of Patera held better than the 100mm of the Tiger .. recall what kind of armor was the T34?))))



                    Due to the inclined arrangement, the upper frontal detail of the Panther case was better. But when, by the middle of 1944, the supply of nickel and other raw materials to Germany had noticeably decreased, the quality of the armor of German tanks became much worse.
                  4. Albert1988
                    Albert1988 4 June 2018 20: 59
                    +1
                    Quote: aws4
                    Little? there is an opinion that the frontal 80mm inclined Patera armor held better than the 100mm Tiger .. remind me what kind of armor the T34 had?))))

                    That is precisely what “opinion” is according to statistics cited by A. Isaev, 74% of the knocked-out panthers were hit in the frontal armor of the hull ... So think ...
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 4 June 2018 23: 07
                      +1
                      Quote: Albert1988
                      according to statistics cited by A. Isaev, 74% of the killed panthers were hit in the frontal armor of the hull ...

                      Seriously? The little girl, of course, everything happened, but I don’t remember exactly such a game. Do not share the link? Google somehow couldn’t.
                      1. Albert1988
                        Albert1988 4 June 2018 23: 25
                        +3
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Seriously? The little girl, of course, everything happened, but I don’t remember exactly such a game. Do not share the link? Google somehow couldn’t.

                        The book "10 Myths of the Second World War", if memory does not change. Look at her.
                        Well, about the "know-how" - you’ve bent it well, I love it when indulgent comments are sent from the sofa to the specialists))))
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 6 June 2018 08: 03
                        0
                        Quote: Albert1988
                        Well, about the "know" - it’s you who are well bent, I love

                        Happy for you. Isaev differs from a specialist in that when it comes to something other than his topic, instead of “I don’t know,” he begins to carry a gag. Which translates it from historians to publicists, and sometimes propagandists.
                        Quote: Albert1988
                        The book "10 Myths of the Second World War," if memory serves.

                        But since it is he who understands the Second World War quite well, he certainly does not have the data you provided. He writes that the majority of Panther’s combat losses are PT artillery on board the hull and turret.
                        What means of struggle were the main ones in the battles with new German tanks is shown by the inspection of the “Panthers” remaining on the battlefield near Kursk by the commission of the Main Armored Directorate of the Red Army. A total of 31 tanks were examined, or rather, the remains of the tanks. One tank was destroyed by a direct hit of a 100 kg caliber bomb. Three tanks were blown up by mines and landmines, four tanks went down for technical reasons and were abandoned when they left. Finally, 22 of the inspected tanks were hit by artillery. A total of 22 tanks counted 58 hits. 10 hits fell on the forehead of the tank’s hull, all ricocheted. 16 shells hit the tower, all reached through penetrations. On the sides of the tank counted 24 shells, in all cases pierced through the armor. It turned out that all types of anti-tank guns that are in service with the Red Army can become fatal for a new medium tank. The side armor of the hull and turret was hit by 45-mm, 76-mm and 85-mm armor-piercing shells. All types of armor-piercing ammunition ricocheted from the upper frontal sheet of the hull. The forehead of the tower and the mask of the gun were pierced by 85-mm armor-piercing shells and even a 45-mm sub-caliber projectile
                3. The comment was deleted.
              2. svp67
                svp67 30 May 2018 15: 33
                +4
                Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                and the gun is generally the best at that time

                Good for WHAT? What about the OFS infantry job?
                1. YELLOWSTONE
                  YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 16: 30
                  +3
                  the best for armor penetration
                  no worse caliber than T-34-76 probably
                  with motorized infantry, they sent the T-4 to the cutting edge, and better things
                  1. Vlad.by
                    Vlad.by 31 May 2018 12: 43
                    +3
                    They sent what was available. And the "it" burned about the same.
                    1. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 12: 51
                      +1
                      they sent what was primarily intended for the task, for this, when organizing the attack, they took care in advance that it was
                      higher on your big strange comment answered in the same thread
                    2. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 13: 15
                      +3
                      here, I’ll add that in the tiger there was an ordinary anti-aircraft gun that used to be used as an anti-tank towed version, and in the panther the PT-gun of special design was the first one, compare the speed of departure from it with modern BOPS and think why they are now used and not OFS as IP -2 although it’s kind of a caliber that allows tanks only the British got her at least some semblance
                      1. Alf
                        Alf 31 May 2018 17: 53
                        +2
                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        speed of departure from it compare with modern BOPS

                        AP Shell-925 m / s. And what is it?
                      2. YELLOWSTONE
                        YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 20: 26
                        +2
                        990 was even at the T-4 gun, what are you talking about?
                      3. igordok
                        igordok 1 June 2018 00: 10
                        +1
                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        in the tiger there was an ordinary anti-aircraft gun that used to be used as an anti-tank in the towed version

                        Concerning 88mm, you are mistaken. Anti-aircraft guns used a cartridge with a sleeve length 570mm and a hitch of 2,5-2,9kg of gunpowder, and tanks and anti-tank guns, a cartridge with an 822mm sleeve and 6,8kg of gunpowder.
                      4. YELLOWSTONE
                        YELLOWSTONE 1 June 2018 07: 42
                        +1
                        and what was the gun itself?
                      5. Vlad.by
                        Vlad.by 1 June 2018 15: 33
                        +5
                        At ZIS-2, the projectile speed was even higher. And rate of fire.
                        And ammunition in general is 3 times more.
                        So what? Let's call it the best anti-tank gun!
                        She Panthers and Tigers also took sideways with 1,5 km. And in the forehead with 700 meters.
                      6. YELLOWSTONE
                        YELLOWSTONE 2 June 2018 06: 36
                        +1
                        on ZIS-2 similar to the NS in 1130 reached only after the war
        2. Vladimir 5
          Vladimir 5 21 June 2018 13: 33
          0
          The Panthers had a 75m cannon, which is much weaker than the 88mm Tiger and "did not take" the IS-2. The Germans issued an order to the tank crews, when meeting with the IS-2, not to engage in battle. So the T-34 tankers, having learned about this, hung on the end of the barrel of their 85mm bucket, depicting the IS-2, which often worked, because the muzzle brake is a clearly distinguishable sign ...
      2. Ros 56
        Ros 56 31 May 2018 11: 04
        +7
        as for the quantity, it would be nice to take into account the Panthers with which the IS-2 is the same in mass, not with the Tiger, and especially not with the Royal Tiger

        All your animals were sent to the other world by St. John's Wort ISU-152, and it was our IS-2, T-34 and ISU-152 that were threshed across Berlin, and not vice versa, so calm down. By the way, what about the order for the Wehrmacht tankers the Tigers not to engage in open battle with the IS-2, have they forgotten? Don’t tell me fairy tales, I personally saw two funerals for the father of my friend, 54 years old, who went through the war and ended the T-34 driver on May 9 in Prague at the request of the Czechs, be they not okay how many guys died and we drank vodka with him in the 80s, in the sense with his father and a man cried remembering those times ..
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 13: 33
          +1
          But do not understand the subject of discussion yourself or do not want the rest of those who do not know to figure it out?
          I don’t see other people besides just one, who immediately started to load cognac with barrels
    2. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 06: 16
      +14
      about the broken German tankers, they couldn’t even remember something at armor from tearing such a shell, but at best they could only smile and shake off
      1. Vard
        Vard 30 May 2018 06: 25
        +6
        I don’t know about smiles ... But the fact that they streamlined .. That's for sure ...
      2. your1970
        your1970 1 June 2018 13: 04
        +6
        father served in Germany after the war on the T-10. They had training races - when they were fired from 76 mm guns, the training tank reached a certain point (buried), stopped, after it they were shot from the 76-mm blank so that the crew got used to getting into the tank then we drove out and rode along the route of the landfill. Naturally, the distance was chosen, we shot at the tower, which, naturally, at this distance such a projectile and caliber could not penetrate and / or damage even in principle.
        Father said:
        1) for all those related to the tower - the smallest scale from the inner surface of the tower had their faces and hands split (he had small spots on his face like miners'). There were no cases of detachment of more or less large pieces of armor, although they shot and hit this tank many times
        2) when hit the tower HUMAN like a bell
        3) it was just very scary, although everyone obviously knew that they couldn’t penetrate a projectile, and even with 10-20 once - fear did not become less ...


        And there were joint exercises with the German Democratic Republic (Germans on 34-85). They say they jumped out of the woods like cockroaches and across the frrrrr field .... then they went down, looked at 34-85 closer, laughed at the Germans - they say a trifle pot-bellied compared to us, foolish guys on the T-10 ..
        He said at night - he woke up, remembered 34-85, introduced his fathers to these boxes .. so he said it became so scary - HOW they fought on this at all? !!!!
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE 3 June 2018 23: 20
          0
          for the PT artillery, the panther was more dangerous because it could come from any direction and press the battery, the tiger had passing mobility and patency both on the ground and on the relief
          the panther’s shell certainly didn’t knock out the whole crew at once, but there were three
    3. Alekseev
      Alekseev 30 May 2018 07: 07
      +28
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      Not the first comparison of these machines.

      Comparison of the tank on the "paper" TTX - this is not a complete picture.
      In particular, the author’s statement about the higher mobility of the Tiger what
      Based on higher power density? But the “luck” is not power, but the torque, especially on off-road on the “bottoms”, of great importance is the so-called reserve of torque, which on diesels, as a rule, is much larger. The Eil-131 engine, for example, has almost the same power as the diesel engine of the T-150 tractor, but it is not possible to use it on the tractor ...
      In addition, the convenience of the crew and the perfection of aiming and surveillance devices, and gun aiming mechanisms are of decisive importance.
      But the difference in rate of fire is so important: after a shot from the barrel of a gun a cloud of powder gases and flames flies out, a dust club rises and it will not be possible to quickly restore the aiming for the next shot, this is not skeet shooting at the stand ... There’s enough time to charge with a shot with separate loading, the “mortgage" skill is more important here.
      1. Proxima
        Proxima 30 May 2018 11: 42
        +12
        Quote: Alekseev
        In particular, the author’s claim on higher mobility is not clear Tigra what
        Based on higher power density? But "lucky" is not power, but torque, especially on the roads on the "bottoms", of great importance is the so-called reserve of torque, which on diesels, as a rule, is much greater ....

        Absolutely agree with you Alex hi
        It’s worth adding that IS-2 has a clear advantage over the Tiger in terms of specific ground pressure, that is, in a wide range of characteristics of the soil surface, where the "IP" passes "with a bang," the "Tiger" stands a stake. belay Well, what's the point in this “paper” mobility? lol
        1. Sevastiec
          Sevastiec 30 May 2018 16: 59
          +11
          We also recall the famous “Tiger” chess rinks that used to be so clogged with dirt that the car lost track, and in the winter they also froze in the parking lot, which made the cars unable to move. Even more “joy”, they delivered during the repair.
      2. Proxima
        Proxima 30 May 2018 12: 52
        +12
        Quote: Alekseev
        But the difference in rate of fire is so important: after a shot from the barrel of a gun a cloud of powder gases and flames flies out, a dust club rises and it will not be possible to quickly restore the aiming for the next shot, this is not skeet shooting at the stand ... There’s enough time to charge with a shot with separate loading, the “mortgage" skill is more important here.

        It is also necessary to take into account that the IS-2 was created not only to play "tanks" with German "pussies". There are IPTAPs, minefields and so on. IS-2 was conceived as a means of breaking through a well-fortified deeply layered enemy defense. The 122-mm D-25T cannon with a concrete-piercing shell perfectly coped with enemy pillboxes, fellow and the battery will not be too good if a 25-kilogram high-explosive fragmentation shell gets into it belay Such characteristics 88-mm gun "Tiger" could only dream of! crying
        In a word, a beautiful tank! good Not surprisingly, the IS-2 was called the “victory tank” by itself. Joseph Stalin. Seeing a new car with powerful weapons and armor, the generalissimo said: "With this machine we will end the war."
      3. Grafova Irina
        Grafova Irina 30 May 2018 22: 30
        +6
        The tiger had the advantage that its length-to-width ratio was less than that of the IS, which, all other things being equal, ensured better agility. On the side of the Tiger is traditionally excellent German optics and, often, crew training, as well as more comfortable conditions for it. The IS has armor, technical reliability, gun power and quantitative superiority in most cases.
        Rate of fire is a very important factor. It is no coincidence that they always tried to make any weapon the most rapid-firing. And separate charging is one of the pluses is difficult to attribute, but in a different way it just could not be, given the caliber.
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 01: 36
          +2
          about training - he used to go to the bad boys from the SS lol
          about the quantitative superiority of the paners over the ISs and the Tigers in weight already
    4. andrewkor
      andrewkor 30 May 2018 08: 45
      +13
      In response to the "burnt Isa in packs" our hundreds of burned Ferdinands!
      1. Graz
        Graz 30 May 2018 10: 38
        +11
        yes, it’s Carius wrote in his memoirs that they say we burst into the village on three tigers, and there are a dozen is 2, the Ivanes were ready for it and we burned them all, in short, the karius praised himself so much that the Germans began to put him in 2nd place after Wittmann , although there was no real evidence besides his words
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 30 May 2018 11: 22
          +5
          Quote: Graz
          yes, it’s Carius wrote in his memoirs that they say we burst into the village on three tigers, and there are a dozen is 2, the Ivanes were ready for it and we burned them all, in short, the karius praised himself so much that the Germans began to put him in 2nd place after Wittmann , although there was no real evidence besides his words

          According to the battle of Carius at vil. Malinovo was parsing from uv. Rostislav Marchenko. The conclusion is that Carius’s bid for the afternoon fight 22.07.44/XNUMX/XNUMX fights with ours by common losses in this area (grandfather just swapped the number of destroyed T-34s and ISs and recorded all the wrecked vehicles exclusively on himself), but according to subsequent requests, questions already begin.
      2. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 30 May 2018 10: 59
        +9
        Quote: andrewkor
        In response to the "burnt Isa in packs" our hundreds of burned Ferdinands!

        The Wehrmacht had a wide variety of self-propelled guns .... it was difficult for the Red Army men to “mention” them all! Hence .... all the “big self-propelled guns were called ,, ferdinandas” (so as not to bother their heads!) As one gunner said: “It doesn’t matter whether or not ferdinand’s burned!” Moreover, the Wehrmacht had some types self-propelled guns, very similar in appearance to the "Ferdinand". and much more ... for example, Noshorn ...
        1. your1970
          your1970 1 June 2018 13: 12
          +2
          general level technical the awareness of our servicemen was lower than that of the Germans. It’s just that there were many times more equipment in Germany before the war - and our many cars were seen only in the army
          That is why all the nuances with the names of German technology, ours were simplified to T-1, T-2, T-3 ... "messerschmit" (although there was a frantic crowd of modifications there), "Schmeiser" (which is not "Schmeiser" at all ) and so on...
          1. Nikolaevich I
            Nikolaevich I 1 June 2018 14: 34
            +1
            Quote: your1970
            in general, the level of technical awareness of our servicemen was lower than that of the Germans. It’s just that there were many times more equipment in Germany before the war - and our many cars were seen only in the army


            I agree .... and this, of course, was the case. That's why they called all armored vehicles similar, to one degree or another, to “Ferdinand” (as they saw in the “pictures” ...) “ferdinands” ...
      3. Nehist
        Nehist 30 May 2018 23: 32
        +4
        About how 90 ferdinands magically turned into hundreds !!!))) And what not at once in thousands? And the casket just opened! For Ferdenanda, they represented the hero's star
    5. Awaz
      Awaz 30 May 2018 21: 13
      +5
      they burned in batches ... After the first meetings with IS 2, the Germans quickly changed the tactics of using the Tigers. They were strictly forbidden to engage in direct oncoming fights with IS 2. They are
      began to fight only from ambushes. What is this talking about? The fact that they had problems right away ... They even struggled with thirty-fours if the T 34 crews were trained .. The author would also have to read the sources first ...
    6. The comment was deleted.
    7. Left shot
      Left shot 2 July 2018 01: 16
      +1
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      Not the first comparison of these machines. According to the recollections of the tankers, the beaten Germans recall how they burned Isa in packs ... Ours, the winners, wrote that it was difficult to destroy the tiger, the enemy was a serious, but quite "tough" cannon of Isa. Since we won, we will consider tanks at least equal ... laughing it is clear that the training and skill of the crews played a decisive role in such duels.

      There is no learning, there are technical facts. IS-2 hits the Tiger from 2 km, the Tiger from 1 km, and nothing more. With 1 km or less, the Tiger wins due to rate of fire. But from 2 km, I repeat, the IS-2 strikes him, and the Tiger - no way, at least release the entire reserve.
    8. militarist63
      militarist63 April 25 2019 01: 37
      0
      Directly in "Packs"? Isn't that Carius?
  3. The comment was deleted.
  4. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 30 May 2018 06: 35
    +23
    How can you compare Tiger and IP? The tiger is 10 tons heavier. IP should be compared with the Panther, which weigh almost the same. Still there are clowns who compare the T-34 and the Tiger, and joyfully squeak about the "benefits of the Teutonic genius!".
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 30 May 2018 07: 43
      +5
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      How can you compare Tiger and IP?

      Just these two cars acted in a similar role. Another thing is that they, theoretically, were not PT amplification machines, so it is not particularly correct to compare them according to the results of the battle with each other. For the battle with the tanks was just Panther and Tigris.
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      IP should be compared with Panther, which weigh almost the same

      And they weigh the same, and the quantity is not very different. But it is impossible to compare, machines play a different role. Worse, machines by weight are compared only by young (head) fans of the Soviet tank school. The Germans, followed by the Anglo-Americans, went to MBT, relatively speaking, through the KV-85, and not through the T-34-85.
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 30 May 2018 08: 12
        +11
        Worse, cars by weight are compared only by young (head) fans of the Soviet tank school
        Ah, you’re just a genius! Maybe you are the one who compares the T-34 and the Tiger?
        The Germans, followed by the Anglo-Americans, went to MBT, relatively speaking, through the KV-85, and not through the T-34-85.
        In fact, the first MBT was the T-64, a Soviet tank, and not German or non-American.
        1. -Pollux
          -Pollux 30 May 2018 14: 04
          +1
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Actually, the first MBT was the T-64

          T-64 - the last medium tank.
          1. Raider
            Raider 1 June 2018 23: 29
            +3
            T-64A first MBT.
      2. YELLOWSTONE
        YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 08: 52
        +9
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        The Germans, followed by the Anglo-Americans, went to MBT, relatively speaking, through the KV-85, and not through the T-34-85.

        was that what?
        will such alternative mouse soon have one category with IS-2, or already?
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 30 May 2018 10: 07
          +1
          Quote: YELLOWSTONE
          Mouse of the same category with IS-2

          Have I written about Mouse somewhere?
          He is still in the same category with Armata. In terms of output.
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          you are just a genius!

          Thank you.
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          you are one of those comparing the T-34 and the Tiger

          No. The analogue of the T-34 was first four, then Panther.
          The Panther was made like a car against the T-34 on the principle of better, less, and better. Do not guess. It turned out too less and not better enough.
          The tiger was, perhaps, HF, as he had thought before the war. And, I must admit, it turned out.
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Actually, the first MBT was the T-64, a Soviet tank

          There are different opinions on this subject, but this is not about that. And the fact that Patton and Centurion were closer in weight to the T-10, but in terms of their role in the troops and the volume of release - T-54. Similarly, Panther’s weight doesn’t make it a tower assault self-propelled gun / anti-tank amplification vehicle, like the IS-2. It’s rather like Brigade, also of the 43rd year, by the way. IS-2 is more versatile / assault machine, TigrB more than PT.
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 30 May 2018 10: 18
            +3
            Have I written about Mouse somewhere?
            He is still in the same category with Armata. In terms of output.
            Oh how! Invented a new tank classification system wassat
            1. YELLOWSTONE
              YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 10: 31
              +5
              and the old one was canceled because it was invented by children
              it’s more convenient to devote cherry and throw on a fan
              differently, but first of all, to reduce the IS-2 to some tower self-propelled guns lol
              which (self-propelled guns) was for example YagdTigr, and did not twist it of course.
              Hurray, the partygoss in Lithuania made the discovery that the USSR did not have heavy tanks in the Second World War, so there’s a day off today laughing
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 30 May 2018 10: 50
                +2
                Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                because it was invented by children

                It just does not matter. Classification in general is pretty arbitrary.
                Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                to reduce the IS-2 to some tower self-propelled guns

                What does "reduce" mean? You were offended by tower self-propelled guns?
                By the way, it was with the IS-2 that it became normal to use separate loading on the tank. So the decision, strange for the 43rd year, against the background of M103 and Chieften does not seem unusual anymore. By the post-war standards, IS-2 - heavy standards.
                Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                which (self-propelled guns) was for example YagdTiger

                And what does the yagdtiger have to do with it? There were many tower self-propelled guns. They fought and did not bathe.
                1. YELLOWSTONE
                  YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 11: 06
                  +3
                  I’m not there, but of course the military didn’t and wasn’t called so?
                  somewhere with the M-108 appeared, do not pull on American lightweight scooters with a gun of the WWII period
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 31 May 2018 02: 28
                    +1
                    Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                    but of course the military was not and was not called that?

                    In the USSR, before the war, such vehicles were called artillery tanks. The most famous example is the KV-2, a specialized machine to combat bunkers. The IS-2 is a more balanced machine, which combines the features of a normal tank and artillery, if you really do not like assault self-propelled guns.
                    1. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 02: 31
                      +2
                      during the war they were called as they are now called by all normal people
            2. YELLOWSTONE
              YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 10: 53
              +5
              Yes, here about IS-2 one wrote that it was a “city tank”, it rose almost immediately that a fellow tanker likes to hide around the corner, and the faustpatrons, according to his concepts, are also weapons for war only in the city, because 200 meters, and infantry means out of the blue on the contrary, it should be grenades Yes
          2. YELLOWSTONE
            YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 10: 19
            +1
            it is clear that not again by weight Yes
            panther is a tank he had no analogues
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 30 May 2018 10: 30
              +1
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              Invented a new tank classification system

              It's not hard. There are fighting vehicles and there are technology demonstrators. It is possible about. 279 add to Mouse, for example.
              Quote: YELLOWSTONE
              panther is a tank he had no analogues

              To some extent you are right. However, if there are two vehicles that regularly meet on the battlefield, they have to be compared.
              If you look for the Soviet analogue of the Panther in time and characteristics, it will, of course, not be the T-34-85, but the IS-1. But the IS-1 was a rare machine, and the Panther was the main one by the end of the war.
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              2. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 02: 33
                +1
                here and compare by weight, but they usually met with towed VET
                and when we met each other, then with Panther from the concussion the same thing happened
                what's with the tiger is only better
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 30 May 2018 11: 29
      +5
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      IP should be compared with the Panther, which weigh almost the same.

      Compare a heavy tank with a medium one? Original
      Panther - ST. Badly beefy, but ST. Well, a heavy can’t have side armor thinner than the T-34 and even break through from PTR. And heavy tanks in the middle-end of the war cannot be massively put into service with tank companies of linear units — only in separate battalions or regiments.
      1. maximghost
        maximghost 30 May 2018 12: 01
        +4
        I do not agree. If you follow your logic (in the matter of booking), then the 50 ton T-35 that the Germans last tried to use at the end of the war is not a heavy tank.
        At the expense of the fact that the panthers were produced a little less than fours, this is due to the fact that by the end of the war industry began to reorient more and more on military rails. Yes, the Germans tried to rearm linear parts on panthers, but this is only because they themselves made a strong bias towards the production of panthers. If the USSR would emphasize production on ISI to the detriment of 34, IS would not cease to be a result of this. In addition, no one takes strategic mobility into account, calling the panther average.
        Kmk, all this Chekhord with the “middle” panther is growing due to the fact that they are trying to classify the tanks for their intended purpose, interfering with the weight classification.
        These are two different classifications that do not overlap with each other. In addition, xassification for its intended purpose is very inaccurate, because in it, machines can move from category to aateshoria depending on modification, OSh, the appearance of new shells for tools or obsolescence.

        P.S. Was a panther taken aboard from a rifle? Is there 40mm only the bottom of the side, in the place where it is digged with rollers?
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 30 May 2018 17: 39
          +2
          Quote: maximghost
          The 50 ton T-35 that the Germans last tried to use at the end of the war was not a heavy tank.

          At the time of creation - was. But due to saturation of the infantry, the 37-45-mm anti-tank vehicle actually ceased to be a TT already during the Spanish events.
          Quote: maximghost
          At the expense of the fact that the panthers were produced a little less than fours, this is due to the fact that by the end of the war industry began to reorient more and more on military rails. Yes, the Germans tried to rearm linear parts on panthers, but this is only because they themselves made a strong bias towards the production of panthers.

          Once again: the “panther” from the very beginning was developed as a ST, planning to replace it with the “three” and “four”. But it did not grow together: the main condition for this replacement was a quick victory over the USSR - it was planned to rearm after it, in a calm atmosphere, when the front would not require more tanks. In real life, the Germans had to maintain the parallel production of two STs - the "four" and "panther" (the latter as a result replaced only the "three").
          The heavy tank was developed according to another program. And at the exit, the Germans received a "tiger."
          Quote: maximghost
          Was a panther taken aboard from a rifle?

          Board towers + vertical side. PMSM, this may be due to a deterioration in the quality of armor protection - our specialists, studying the "panthers" captured in 1944, were surprised to find on them side and stern armor parts made of structural steel.
          1. maximghost
            maximghost 30 May 2018 21: 32
            +7
            At the time of creation - was. But due to saturation of the infantry, the 37-45-mm anti-tank vehicle actually ceased to be a TT already during the Spanish events.

            No. He did not cease to be a heavy tank. It just became a morally obsolete heavy tank.
            Once again: the “panther” from the very beginning was developed as a ST, planning to replace it with the “three” and “four”. But it did not grow together:

            That’s exactly what didn’t grow together — they worked out the middle one — they got heavy, it happens. They used heavy as a medium - evil self-buratins. As I wrote, all these disputes are due to mixing into a bunch of different classifications - by weight and purpose (or by the role on the battlefield in which they tried to apply). Call the panther and 34 not average, but the main linear (for their countries) - hardly anyone will pick on such a comparison, but then it will be fair to write that 34 is easier, more adapted to mass production (simpler, cheaper and more maintainable) , and the gun, although significantly inferior in armor penetration, is more universal, while the panther ...
            Those. an objective comparison will be obtained and both sides will consider all the characteristics of the tanks. And now comes the comparison between warm and soft, when one side of the dispute puts some characteristics at the forefront, taking others out of the scope, and the opposite side - vice versa.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 31 May 2018 14: 05
              +3
              Quote: maximghost
              That’s exactly what didn’t grow together — they worked out the middle one — they got heavy, it happens.

              Yes, they did not get a heavy tank. They got a wonderful miracle, marvelous - a medium tank with a mass of heavy. A heavy tank is armor and firepower. And the “panther” of all armor has only inclined VLD. And a 75 mm gun with dead OFS.
              To make the Panther a heavy tank, it needs to increase its armor and gun caliber. And the result is ... right - "kote". smile
              1. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 15: 00
                +2
                only the tiger was worse Yes in all but the breakthrough of the front line on the plain and on hard ground, for which, apart from Kursk and Hungary (Royal) was no longer used
              2. maximghost
                maximghost 31 May 2018 22: 24
                +4
                Well again. You are trying to compare machines for their intended purpose, give a classification of machines by weight. If you translate everything into the realities of the same country, then you are trying to equate (more precisely compare equal machines) the su-122 (based on the t-34) to the su-122 (based on the isa), motivating it with the fact that the su-122 (the one that is based on ISA) the landmine is much weaker than that of the ISU-152.
          2. Mikhail Matyugin
            Mikhail Matyugin 13 July 2018 23: 18
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Once again: the “panther” from the very beginning was developed as a ST, planning to replace it with the “three” and “four”. But it did not grow together: the main condition for this replacement was a quick victory over the USSR - it was planned to rearm after it, in a calm atmosphere, when the front would not require more tanks. In real life, the Germans had to maintain the parallel production of two STs - the "four" and "panther" (the latter as a result replaced only the "three").

            Exactly ! And this was one of the strategic miscalculations of the Germans, thanks to which they trite tore their industry!
      2. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 30 May 2018 12: 47
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Compare a heavy tank with a medium one? Original

        I first met this comparison at Rezun. Just a reference to the weight of the machines. Honestly, he didn’t understand, he himself had come to this, or following Glavpur.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. militarist63
      militarist63 April 25 2019 01: 40
      0
      Kot_Kuzya, yes, there are such comparison clowns!
  5. Vikxnumx
    Vikxnumx 30 May 2018 07: 19
    +4
    And about non-combat losses why didn’t they write anything? Since the first use of the Tigers in Mgi ...
    And about the long service of Is-2 it is written correctly.
  6. Snakebyte
    Snakebyte 30 May 2018 08: 12
    +2
    But the 122-mm high-explosive shell IS-2 was much more effective at bunkers, artillery and manpower. Which was the main objective of the heavy breakthrough tank. On the other hand, the choice of the D-25T was due precisely to its ability to deal with enemy heavy tanks.
    "Tiger" was also intended to break through the defense, although it was necessary to use it to plug the enemy's breakthroughs. The Germans, apparently, were greatly impressed by the effectiveness of the 88-mm anti-aircraft guns when breaking through the Maginot line.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 30 May 2018 08: 53
      +4
      Tigers in the 2nd stage of the war, when the Germans retreated,
      reduced to several "heavy battalions".
      They had 1/4 Tigers - 3/4 T3. T3 conducted reconnaissance and covered
      Tigers at the back. The battalions were constantly moving from place to place
      by train as "plugs" in the places of breakthroughs of the Red Army.
      Most Tiger crews survived the war, although they were replaced by
      several tanks. Therefore, the "survivability" of the Tigers for the crew was
      obviously good.
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 30 May 2018 09: 16
        +3
        In fact, the first use of the Tigers was in August 1942, when the Germans stood near Stalingrad and they planned to reach India. There was no talk of any retreat then. And the Tiger battalions were created in the spring of 1943 for strategic offensive on the Kursk Bulge. So the Tiger is a typical defense breakthrough tank.
      2. BAI
        BAI 30 May 2018 10: 40
        +5
        They had 1/4 Tigers - 3/4 T3. T3 conducted reconnaissance and covered

        Something is all wrong.
        1. T-III were at the initial stage. In the end, they were also discontinued in 1943.
        The first heavy tank battalions formed in the composition of three companies - staff and two linear. The headquarters company included a communications platoon (two tanks Pz. Kpfw VI and one Pz. Kpfw III) and a light platoon (five Pz. Kpfw III). There were four platoons in the linear company: two Tigers and two Pz each. Kpfw III in each. Another "Tiger" and two Pz. Kpfw III was listed in the company management. Thus, the line company had 19 tanks (9 Pz. Kpfw VI and 10 Pz. Kpfw III), and the battalion - 46 (20 Pz. Kpfw VI and 26 Pz. Kpfw III). The reorganization of the first three battalions according to the new states was completed by October 1942

        2. The middle of the end of the war (so to speak).
        in March 1943 the new staff of the heavy tank battalion was introduced. Now it included three tank companies of 14 Tiger tanks each. Three more of the same tanks were listed in the headquarters company. Thus, the battalion had 45 heavy tanks - there are no secondary.

        3. The end of the war.
        In 1944-1945, some changes took place in the organization and armament of the heavy tank battalion. In particular, the Flakpantser anti-aircraft self-propelled anti-aircraft guns based on the Pz tank entered the air defense platoon. Kpfw IV (according to the state - eight units). The repair company received five BREM Bergepenter (based on the Panther tank). These ARVs could tow the Tiger alone (18-ton tractors for this procedure required three pieces). At the same time, the number of personnel is reduced to about 900 people, and vehicles to 278. Finally, at the very end of the war, due to the lack of Tigers, only two tank companies had to be left in some heavy tank battalions (31 tanks, taking into account three Tigers ”in the headquarters company).

        Crew survival was really good.
    2. Looking for
      Looking for 31 May 2018 18: 13
      +1
      And it seems to me that the choice of the D-25 was due to the fact that one hundred Soviet artillery thought could not create a worthy tank gun. And I had to choose from what it was.
  7. Monarchist
    Monarchist 30 May 2018 09: 54
    +1
    Quote: YELLOWSTONE
    about the broken German tankers, they couldn’t even remember something at armor from tearing such a shell, but at best they could only smile and shake off

    That’s for sure: if you scandal a sledgehammer on an iron box, then the box will not be very comfortable
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 10: 20
      +2
      even its mechanisms Yes
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 30 May 2018 11: 34
        +5
        Pomnitsa, SW. M. Svirin wrote that even on the “tigers” and “kote” the transmission was extremely disliked when the 122-mm OFS flew into the forehead. smile There is no penetration - but it is impossible to move.
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 12: 00
          +4
          sights, turning the tower, but in general everything
        2. Cannonball
          Cannonball 1 June 2018 20: 44
          +2
          When the 122-mm OFS hit the "cats" it even happened to break down the tower.
          1. YELLOWSTONE
            YELLOWSTONE 2 June 2018 06: 04
            +1
            maybe the t-34 is better and the gun too and its weight is almost like that of the is-2?
            1. Cannonball
              Cannonball 2 June 2018 09: 31
              +2
              You still remember the number of rollers laughing
              T-34 and IS-2 tanks of different classes, designed for different tasks.
              And the fact that the T-34 is the best tank of the Second World War is recognized by experts all over the world. In terms of individual characteristics, it may be inferior to competitors, but in terms of the total set of all characteristics, it is by far the best.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 2 June 2018 14: 14
                -1
                Quote: Cannonball
                T-34 - the best tank of the Second World War, recognized by specialists all over the world.

                Seriously?
                1. Cannonball
                  Cannonball 2 June 2018 17: 40
                  +1
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Quote: Cannonball
                  T-34 - the best tank of the Second World War, recognized by specialists all over the world.

                  Seriously?

                  10 best tanks of all time according to Discovery


                  And here is the opinion of experts:

                  Major General Friedrich von Mellentin
                  "We had nothing comparable."

                  Field Marshal von Kleist
                  "The best tank of the world"

                  John Milsom
                  “The effect this tank produced had a major impact on the further development of tank building around the world.”

                  Norman Davis, professor at Oxford University and author of Europe in War. 1939-1945. Without a simple victory "
                  “Who in 1939 would have thought that the best WWII tank would be produced in the USSR? The T-34 was not the best tank because it was the most powerful or heavy, German tanks in this sense were ahead of them. But it was very effective for that war and allowed to solve tactical problems. The maneuverable Soviet T-34 "hunted in packs" like wolves, which did not give a chance to clumsy German "Tigers." American and British tanks were not so successful in opposing German technology. "

                  Werner Haupt, German historian, former Wehrmacht officer
                  "Among the enemy’s tanks were also completely unknown to the Germans, excellent in their maneuverability and combat power T-34 tanks, against which at that moment all anti-tank weapons were powerless."

                  B. Muller-Gillebrand, German military historian, major general
                  “At the beginning of the campaign, the Red Army was armed with a new T-34 tank, which the German ground forces could not oppose to either an equivalent tank or the corresponding defensive means. The appearance of the T-34 tank was an unpleasant surprise, because of its speed, high cross-country ability, reinforced armor protection, armament, and mainly the presence of an elongated 76-mm gun, which has increased firing accuracy and penetrating ability of shells at long, still not reachable distances, was a completely new type of tank weapon.The appearance of T-34 tanks radically changed the tactics of tank If until now certain requirements were imposed on the design of the tank and its armament, in particular, to suppress infantry and infantry-supporting means, now the main task was to destroy enemy tanks as far as possible in order to create the preconditions for subsequent success in in battle. new tank designs appeared, on the basis of which tanks of types V (Panther) and VI (Tiger) were later introduced. "

                  Otto Carius, German tank ace
                  “The T-34, with its good armor, perfect shape and magnificent 76,2 mm long-barreled gun, thrilled everyone, and all German tanks were afraid of him until the end of the war ... At that time, the 37 mm gun was still our strongest anti-tank weapons. If we’re lucky, we could get into the shoulder strap of the T-34 tower and jam it. If we’re even more lucky, the tank will not be able to operate effectively in battle after that. Of course, this is not a very encouraging situation! "

                  According to the Top Ten Tanks rating compiled by Military Channel in 2007 based on surveys of British and American servicemen and experts, the Soviet T-34 was the best tank of the 34th century. He received close to ultimate ratings for firepower, security, mobility, and the highest rating for the development of industry. The highest score according to the last criterion provided the T-1 tank with the reputation of the “Number XNUMX” tank.
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 2 June 2018 22: 46
                    -2
                    Thank you for having fun.
                    Especially sincerely went the Germans, who describe the incredible difficulties encountered in 41 years, i.e. on the road from Brest to Khimki (all your quotes relate to the summer-fall of the 41st). How it turned out to be difficult for them!
                    But the English "expert", whose tanks are "hunted" (!) By "packs" (!) - is also an offset.

                    You only know about tanks from TV? Surnames Svirin or, there, Kolomiyets do not say anything?
                    1. Cannonball
                      Cannonball 3 June 2018 13: 55
                      +3
                      I was called up as a tank commander, if that.
                      And I have the books of Svirin and Kolomiyets, as well as Baryatinsky and even the first two volumes of the “Domestic Armored Vehicles” of the Solyankin and Pavlovs.
                      This is, firstly, and secondly, the opinion of these "Germans and experts" is two orders of magnitude more valuable and more weighty than your "omniscience."
                      But their opinion is not like - don’t paint, you will find more authoritative for you.
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 3 June 2018 17: 53
                        -2
                        Quote: Cannonball
                        I have books of Svirin and Kolomiyets, as well as Baryatinsky and even the first two volumes of the “Domestic Armored Vehicles” of the Solyankin and Pavlovs.

                        Hm. Happy for you.
                        That is, what was the T-34 of the 41st year you know. Nevertheless, you thought it necessary to post the opinion of Carius and the Discovery Channel (or rather, copy-paste a selection from AiF or something similar), and not experts.
                        For what reasons did you do this?
                        Quote: Cannonball
                        secondly, the opinion of these "Germans and experts" is two orders of magnitude more valuable and more weighty than your "omniscience."

                        These? No.
                        Quote: Cannonball
                        You will find more authoritative for you.

                        Have already found. You have listed them. Show off Serious people call them pops and send them to the primary, well, yes, for starters, it’ll do.
              2. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE 3 June 2018 08: 17
                -2
                in terms of the total set of characteristics, tanks are now more like a panther
                1. Cannonball
                  Cannonball 3 June 2018 13: 56
                  +3
                  Which is similar to the T-34. The circle is closed.
                  1. YELLOWSTONE
                    YELLOWSTONE 3 June 2018 22: 31
                    -1
                    tilt of the upper frontal part in which she had no mechanical drive hatch? ns guns or maybe mass? rational tilt angles were used on German armored personnel carriers, they knew what it was
                    1. Cannonball
                      Cannonball 3 June 2018 23: 07
                      +2
                      The driver’s hatch on the frontal armor is certainly a minus, but this problem was solved on the T-44. True, he did not take part in the war.
                      Inclined armor in Russia was used in the first world war. Remember the reservation scheme of the captain Mgebrov. Or the tank "turtle", it is BT-SV-2, built in the 37th.

                      The mass of modern MBT:
                      German Leopard 2 - 62-67 t,
                      English Challenger 2 - 62,5 t,
                      Italian Ariete - 55 t.,
                      Chinese ZTZ-99 - 54 t,
                      Korean K2 - 54 t,
                      Indian Arjun - 58,5 t,
                      Israeli Merkava - 70 t,
                      French Leclerc - 54-57 t,
                      American M1 Abrams - 54-63 t,

                      There is probably a lot of Pz.Kpfw. VI Tiger (57 t) than Pz.Kpfw. V Panther (44,8 t)
                      1. YELLOWSTONE
                        YELLOWSTONE 3 June 2018 23: 08
                        0
                        But for example, the mass of Soviet and contemporary Western ones?
                2. meandr51
                  meandr51 17 December 2018 17: 13
                  0
                  Especially Armata. Well, spilled ...
  8. BAI
    BAI 30 May 2018 10: 27
    +2
    German tankers in the event of a collision with the IS-2 would have to rely on better mobility and a higher rate of fire.

    I absolutely agree with the rate of fire. But speaking of mobility, the author does not say anything about cross-country ability, which was better for IS. Not all fights took place on a paved field.
    Heavy tanks Pz.Kpfw. VI Ausf. H Tiger and IS-2 did not meet too often in battles

    Otto Carius claimed that with a small number of Tigers he defeated an entire IS-2 brigade (it seems 28 tanks).
    But on the other hand, we know that the T-34-85 made the “goat face” of the Royal Tigers in the first battle.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 30 May 2018 11: 37
      +3
      Quote: BAI
      Otto Carius claimed that with a small number of Tigers he defeated an entire IS-2 brigade (it seems 28 tanks).

      Grandfather confused the numbers - in the Malinovo area, according to our documents, not 17 IS-2s and 5 T-34s were lost, but 5 IS-2s and 15-18 T-34s.
      1. Snakebyte
        Snakebyte 30 May 2018 12: 58
        +2
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Grandfather confused the numbers - in the Malinovo area, according to our documents, not 17 IS-2s and 5 T-34s were lost, but 5 IS-2s and 15-18 T-34s.

        In addition, he chalked up and self-propelled tanks.
    2. Looking for
      Looking for 31 May 2018 18: 19
      -1
      Darling, fighting and ambush attacks are two very big differences. Oskin just found himself in ideal conditions.
    3. meandr51
      meandr51 17 December 2018 17: 16
      0
      What is left for him? Well, who's going to read a loser's memoir? Mukhin examines this Karius in detail, catches on an outright lie. But Karius let slip: "One Russian is more dangerous than six Americans." Ours did not pull his tongue. He remembers, fascist ...
  9. Curious
    Curious 30 May 2018 10: 39
    +7

    The workplace of the driver Pz.Kpfw.VI "Tiger".
    The steering wheel with which the tank is controlled is adjustable in height, for this you need to turn off the crane, set the desired angle and tighten the crane. Gearbox Maybach OLVAR OG (B) 40 12 16A manufactured by Zahnradfabrik factory. The gearbox was equipped with an automatic hydraulic servo-drive. To shift gears, it was enough to translate the lever without squeezing the pedals of the main clutch. The servo drive automatically, without the participation of the driver, turned off the main clutch and previously engaged gear, synchronized the angular velocities of the gear clutches engaged, switched on a new gear, and then gradually switched on the main clutch.
    Thanks to this, controlling a multi-ton machine was easy and convenient.
    1. Curious
      Curious 30 May 2018 10: 48
      +5

      The workplace of the mechanic is the driver of the IS-2.
      All transmission control drives are mechanical.
      Those who have control experience, for example, BMP and, for example, the T-54, not to mention earlier tanks, will appreciate the difference.
      1. VictorZhivilov
        VictorZhivilov 30 May 2018 15: 44
        +2
        Thank you for the visual and informative! smile
      2. Nehist
        Nehist 30 May 2018 23: 46
        +2
        Gg ep. With the helm at times more convenient))) BMP compared to the T-55 at times more comfortable
    2. Albert1988
      Albert1988 4 June 2018 21: 24
      +1
      Only now, the reliability of the convenient mechanism is much lower, especially if the lobeshnik flew well even without breaking through.
    3. meandr51
      meandr51 17 December 2018 17: 18
      0
      That's why he was worth as five Isov ...
  10. Monarchist
    Monarchist 30 May 2018 11: 12
    +4
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    How can you compare Tiger and IP? The tiger is 10 tons heavier. IP should be compared with the Panther, which weigh almost the same. Still there are clowns who compare the T-34 and the Tiger, and joyfully squeak about the "benefits of the Teutonic genius!".

    Why not compare the BT5 and the German mouse?
  11. oldav
    oldav 30 May 2018 11: 14
    +3
    Quote: BAI
    Otto Carius claimed that with a small number of Tigers he defeated an entire IS-2 brigade (it seems 28 tanks).

    It was in the battle for Klaipeda. They stood in the parking lot. He imperceptibly crept in and point-blank shot them all. Can this be called a tank battle? I doubt it.
  12. KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD 30 May 2018 11: 19
    +6
    The article says nothing about the comparative maintainability of these tanks in the field. Without going into details, I will say that a very large percentage of German losses came from the need for repairs in workshop conditions when timely evacuation was not possible. The IS was simpler and more adapted for field repairs, and plus - it was designed for a mass of surface-trained mechanized driver and crew as a whole. Agree in the conditions of a large total war, a huge advantage that is not possible to level even with the help of the German Ordnung. So, in the technical "gadgets" of the Tiger there was also a downside, as in all the magnificent, in fact, German engineering schools.
  13. Monarchist
    Monarchist 30 May 2018 11: 47
    +3
    I read somewhere that the Tiger had an advantage over our tank due to the TZF sights “Heinz’s long arm * as the Germans called this sight.
    If you look at the speed of the Tiger on rough terrain of 20-25 km and a more rapid-firing gun and a larger stock of shells this is essential. but they were in short supply of shells with a tungsten tip. + by the number of Tigers inferior to the ISs. That is our happiness. Such is the essence of the memories of tankers collected by Drabkin, and I believe him
    1. Curious
      Curious 30 May 2018 12: 22
      +3
      Monarchist - shells do not have tungsten tips, there are tungsten cores !!!
      Can't you imagine an armor-piercing projectile device at all?
    2. BAI
      BAI 30 May 2018 12: 52
      +3
      There is still a review from the tank means a lot.

      View from the German tank Pz.Kpfw. VI "Tiger" during the battle. Ahead is the burning T-34. USSR, 1944.
      I just don’t understand - the photographer leaned out of the tank or is it a view from the commander’s turret. If you did not climb out - the review is excellent. But in any case, for this thirty-four, the meeting with the Tiger became fatal.
      1. Curious
        Curious 30 May 2018 13: 08
        +6
        You won’t take such a photo through any viewing device. Anyone holding a camera of those times knows why.
        1. BAI
          BAI 30 May 2018 15: 24
          0
          Let me disagree. The cameras were different.
          From such models

          Photojournalists before the Potsdam Conference.
          Before

          A group of Soviet war correspondents at a dugout in the village of Kapkany (now the district of the city of Kerch). (2nd left).
          Here it is clearly visible. This is all wartime.

          The photojournalist of the newspaper of the 7th Guards Army “For the Motherland” of the Guard, foreman Nikolai Petrovich Shestakov (1905-1956).
          I do not think that the Germans were inferior to us as photographic equipment.
          1. Curious
            Curious 30 May 2018 16: 57
            +2
            Yes, what were the cameras, I know. Started with "Photocore -1". How do you imagine shooting with a camera with a telescopic viewfinder ("there were very few DSLRs of the Kine Exakta type then) through a viewing device? Or do you think the Tiger has 9x12 cm viewing devices?
            1. BAI
              BAI 30 May 2018 17: 36
              0
              In my opinion, it is enough that the diameter of the lens is less than the viewing gap. Attach to the glass - and then how it goes. Maybe it’ll turn out well. The main thing is that nothing covers the lens.
              1. Curious
                Curious 30 May 2018 18: 11
                +4
                There is no viewing gap. There are periscope instruments.

                This is the commander’s turret of the Tiger.
                1. Curious
                  Curious 30 May 2018 18: 15
                  +3

                  And this is one of the viewing devices. Shooting through optics without special devices in this optics is practically hopeless.
                  1. BAI
                    BAI 30 May 2018 20: 29
                    0
                    I completely agree with you, and the first photo of the article confirms your words. But look at the third photo - Tiger in the forest. There are no these devices, but there are viewing gaps. And further. The picture was taken from the commander’s turret - a gun to the right of the photographer. But why in the battle prevent the commander from taking his place when there is a free hatch on the right? It seems to me that the only explanation is that in order not to risk the life of the photojournalist, the tank commander let him in his place so that he could take a picture in safe conditions without protruding from the tank. If the picture is staged (which is unlikely - still 1944), then again, the hatch on the right is free, and you can get closer to the T-34 - a close-up is always more advantageous.
                    1. Curious
                      Curious 30 May 2018 20: 50
                      +1

                      The commander’s turret of an early type, which was criticized from the very beginning.
                      Starting from tower number 392, that is, approximately from the middle of 1943, new cast commander towers began to be placed on the Tigers.
                      But these are not through holes. They are also equipped with viewing devices. Otherwise, the tank commander will instantly be left without eyes.
      2. demiurg
        demiurg 30 May 2018 13: 12
        +5
        The tiger went aboard the T-34. In its place could be absolutely any tank, in fact, like in place of the t-34. tanks do not fight onboard.
        Photo clearly from the open hatch. T-34 burns for a long time. It is possible that from the battles near Warsaw, the battles of 2 TA with the German tank divisions.
        1. BAI
          BAI 30 May 2018 15: 33
          +3
          On the "Military Album" (where the photograph came from), it was agreed that a 7 mk tank was destroyed during the Oppeln operation - not the most successful for the Red Army. (in 1944, little T34-76 was left, which made it possible to localize the place of the event).
          1. beeper
            beeper 2 June 2018 09: 27
            +3
            hi I absolutely do not want to engage in polemics, but at first glance I saw the T-34-85, this is it, elongated in length, a characteristic tower turned left to board with a protruding stump of the trunk ?!
            There is no clear image, poor sharpness on a hastily taken picture! I think that, as usual, the commander sticking out in the hatch (what kind of "journalist is in the commander's place"? smile , he would have definitely made a good shot — this is his bread !, and so, in the Wehrmacht, unlike the Red Army, it was not forbidden to have a camera with ordinary soldiers and officers, therefore we have a large number of military photos from the German side in all aspects, and Soviet photographs are only those mostly production ones that were taken by frontline photojournalists!) the Hitler’s tank was photographed on the go, even without really focusing on sharpness, or it could get hazy in the eyes (this happens in places of mass deaths of people when there are a lot of people in one place restless dead bodies, some light transparent fog fluctuates, makes it difficult to see clearly) "hit the tip" ?!
      3. faiver
        faiver 30 May 2018 14: 44
        +4
        But in any case, for this thirty-four, the meeting with the Tiger became fatal.
        not the fact that 34ku this tiger knocked out ..
    3. meandr51
      meandr51 17 December 2018 17: 20
      0
      Our sights had a wider field of view. This is a major advantage.
  14. demiurg
    demiurg 30 May 2018 12: 11
    +4
    To all fans of the Teutonic design genius, a question for filling up:
    Why, almost immediately after the war, all these beautiful cars: Tigers ordinary and B, Panthers and their self-propelled derivatives with friendly columns went to open-hearth?

    The answer about the lack of spare parts is not accepted, the fourth grooves without spare parts fought quite successfully back in the 60s. The ISs seem to have exchanged fire with the chieftains. Do not remind about mobility either, the panther was with mobility at the level of T-34-85 (though not for long and not always). By the way, the Centurion of the first series was also far from a trotter.
    1. oldav
      oldav 30 May 2018 12: 16
      +1
      As far as I know, they served in the Israeli army. And the young CMEA countries were initially supplied with them.
    2. oldav
      oldav 30 May 2018 12: 24
      +5
      Tigers and Panthers are expensive and complicated to maintain. If you decide to open your taxi, what kind of cars do you pick KIA / Hyundai / Lada or Porsche / BMW / Jaguar? How long will your company go bankrupt if you choose the second?
      1. demiurg
        demiurg 30 May 2018 13: 30
        +4
        Can I proof my service in Israel?
        By the way, if anyone has, can I have the last mention of cat service after the war?

        Comparing with a taxi is wrong. If I have a taxi for VIP people, then I will have to buy jaguars and Mercedes. I have such a taxi in the city.
        Tigers and panthers were not consumables of war. Their high efficiency did not justify any reliability and high cost of service. Carius statistics are pleasing to the eye, but the result of the war suggests that the high efficiency of a single unit does not guarantee victory in general. In 44, the USSR could put the T-44 and IS-3 into battle, but it did not let go, not wanting to step on the rake that the T-34s themselves stepped on and on which the Germans jumped with panther.
        The Germans fell in love with the moment of developing a new tank somewhere in the year 39-40, deciding to get by with the modernization of what is.
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 13: 59
          +2
          panthers served in the army of Hungary and France, and in the French for a long time, it's just on wikipedia
          wheeled tracked armored personnel carriers were made before the 90s and were in service until the end of the 90s in Czechoslovakia, all the same
          1. demiurg
            demiurg 30 May 2018 14: 46
            +3
            How long did they last two, three years? By 48-49, there seems to be no mention of them. No one will keep the tank in service with a sober mind and good memory if a repair plant is needed for its regular operation. Tanks must fight. not repaired.

            But the Germans had a light technique. You can still recall the hatzer. Or the fact that the ears of our armored personnel carriers are growing from German roots.

            In fact, the Germans lost the tanks before the war, deciding to finish the blitzkrieg at the grooves. When they realized it, it was too late; you won’t develop a tank in a year. And the USSR gritting its teeth brought to mind a more advanced machine, the T-34.
            1. YELLOWSTONE
              YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 15: 08
              -1
              until the 1970s. she was not overweight because the tiger was okay with her,
              she was the most perfect and dangerous tank of the war
          2. Alf
            Alf 30 May 2018 21: 03
            +1
            Quote: YELLOWSTONE
            wheeled tracked armored personnel carriers were made before the 90s

            Ganomagi in the Czech Republic produced until 1962, and in the 92nd was removed from service.
            1. YELLOWSTONE
              YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 01: 44
              +1
              I won’t specify about the release of OT-810, in 1997 I definitely participated in exercises
            2. YELLOWSTONE
              YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 13: 09
              +1
              in small batches they were produced at least until 1985
              1. Alf
                Alf 31 May 2018 17: 46
                +1
                Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                in small batches they were produced at least until 1985

                The OT-810 armored personnel carriers were manufactured by Skoda machine-building plants in Pilsen and Bohemia in Ceska Lipa from 1945 to 1962 and until the 1980s were in service with the Czechoslovak People’s Army.

                “Released” and “consisted” —two big differences.
                1. YELLOWSTONE
                  YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 20: 23
                  +1
                  and issued and consisted
                  about n / c panther guns look better, the sub-caliber designed for it began with 1130
                  1. Alf
                    Alf 31 May 2018 21: 21
                    +3
                    Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                    about n / c panther guns look better, the sub-caliber designed for it began with 1130

                    BOPS guns of the T-72 tank has an initial velocity of 1745 m / s. It never seems.
                    Tell me, how many sub-caliber shells were fired for the KWK42?
                    There were 8,8 pieces of caliber for the 43 KWK7700.
                    For KWK40-48000 pieces.
                    I didn’t find any data for KWK42, but taking as the basis the release of the PKS for PAK40, we’ll calculate how many of the Panther’s gun there were sub-caliber shells. Divide 48000 by 6000 Panthers and get 8 shells per gun. And this is without taking into account self-propelled guns IV / L70 with the same gun.
                    From this we can conclude that there were practically no sub-calibers in the Panther BC.
                2. YELLOWSTONE
                  YELLOWSTONE 1 June 2018 07: 52
                  0
                  starting at 1130 and ending around 1450
                  it was first called experimental lots, then it was thrown out of the wiki completely, so it’s more difficult
                  for a weaker English analogue, the maximum achieved speed of 1200 is indicated
                  when the tungsten panther was cut
                  practically if another shell didn’t take, then they were shot by a sub-caliber and he took any type of tank at any aiming range
                  1. Alf
                    Alf 1 June 2018 19: 47
                    +1
                    Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                    ending around 1450

                    Brand of projectile in the studio.
                    1. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 2 June 2018 06: 06
                      0
                      look for the brand of shells not on Wikipedia, from which you took the smallest
                      1. Alf
                        Alf 2 June 2018 16: 55
                        +1
                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        look for the brand of shells not on Wikipedia, from which you took the smallest

                        Why didn’t you bring it? Fantastic department did not close on time?
                      2. YELLOWSTONE
                        YELLOWSTONE 3 June 2018 08: 21
                        0
                        fantastic department or strange inattention periodically turns on for someone else
                        and ignorance of the state of affairs with high-pressure tank guns of the warring parties
      2. YELLOWSTONE
        YELLOWSTONE 30 May 2018 14: 00
        +1
        the French have more and more than all
    3. Nehist
      Nehist 30 May 2018 23: 55
      +1
      Panthers after the war were in service with France and Czechoslovakia
      1. Alf
        Alf 31 May 2018 17: 58
        +3
        Quote: Nehist
        Panthers after the war were in service with France and Czechoslovakia

        It’s easier to say WHAT was in service with France after the war.
  15. glum
    glum 30 May 2018 12: 29
    0
    The IS lost in the rate of fire of the Tiger for sure, but the Tiger ruined its complexity of manufacturing and heavy weight. but he was much more comfortable than IS.
  16. Evgesha
    Evgesha 30 May 2018 13: 02
    +3
    Another comparison of tanks from a fan of the game of tanks ..
    and also the comments will be mixed - when they prove with foam that the panther is a medium tank ....
    then the T-34-85 will be considered heavy.
    eh connoisseurs x .... s
    you decide first how to classify tanks, determine their purpose and then compare.
    and a stupid comparison of paper parameters is a pure game of tanks and no more
  17. faiver
    faiver 30 May 2018 13: 16
    +3
    Firstly, I do not agree with the author that the IS-2 is the most massive WWII heavy, because I do not consider KV-1 and KV-1 with different tanks - this is one tank in different modifications and, accordingly, KV-1 is the most massive heavy WWII tank, the second one does not agree with the advantage in the mobility of the tiger, as mentioned above ...
  18. Army soldier2
    Army soldier2 30 May 2018 13: 27
    +21
    Given that I was probably the only speaker who served on the IS-2, IS-3, let me insert my “five cents”.
    IS-2 - wonderful for its time, a heavy tank with powerful weapons. Well, the IS-3 is generally handsome 1945 born.
    D-25T - an excellent powerful tool. If the TSh-17 verified it well (and this, it must be said, is a complicated and arduous process due to a goddamn reconciliation key with two articulated joints), then where it was aimed, the shell arrived and flew there. At any range. We always had problems with targets. Once pulled into the area of ​​the T-34 lifts (I still remember this with shame). The range is somewhere 800 m. Rota shot the OFS for a high-explosive action, and the T-34 disappeared. All split at the seams and scattered. This is me about the power of D-25T ammunition.
    I think that tiger armor penetration was desirable, but not necessary. When an 25-kilogram shell hit, I believe the crew received heavy shell shock.
    And one comment to the author. Naturally, we did not have periscope sights, but with the help of the side level we perfectly shot with PDO and half-direct aiming.
    1. VictorZhivilov
      VictorZhivilov 30 May 2018 16: 08
      +3
      Thank you, it’s always nice to read eyewitness accounts. smile
    2. Looking for
      Looking for 31 May 2018 18: 35
      -2
      And here is the T-34?. You would still write about the car as a target. Have you shot at the Tiger? No?. So what's your memory?
    3. 019
      019 18 January 2019 02: 27
      0
      Quote: Army 2
      The IS-2 is a remarkable heavy tank with powerful weapons for its time.

      IS-2 is a turret self-propelled gun supporting BTT. It was in this role that the IS-2 was ALWAYS used. Just because in another way (for example, as a heavy tank) they could not be used.
      Quote: Army 2
      D-25T is an excellent powerful weapon.

      Excellent except from others. And so, rubbish gun for BTT.
  19. Bessarab
    Bessarab 30 May 2018 14: 48
    +5
    The author confuses the first models of the IS-2 with the most popular model, with a straightened nose. Such a tank for the Tiger gun was too tough for a head-on collision, because the Tiger gun didn’t penetrate the upper frontal part of the hull of such an IS even when shot at point-blank range, the tower’s forehead was no more than 300 m, and the lower frontal part of the hull was not more than 500 m. But spare tracks were still attached to this part of the hull. Yes, and the terrain covered this part of the armor. The earth was round. The IS’s gun didn’t matter where to get into the Tiger. Even a high-explosive shell put the Tiger out of action, and therefore the Wehrmacht leadership forbade its tankers to engage in fights with the IS-2. What are the other times the T-34 crews used to put a bucket on the barrel of their gun. From a long distance, the Germans took him for a muzzle brake and, considering that they were being attacked, the IS-2 retreated. That is why the Germans removed the Tiger from production, replacing it with the Royal Tiger.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 30 May 2018 18: 24
      +4
      Quote: Bessarab
      And therefore, the leadership of the Wehrmacht forbade its tankers to engage in fights with the IS-2.

      There was no ban. There was an urgent recommendation: do not rely on armor, remember tactics and pay attention to crew training.
      Conclusions of the company commander of the Tigers about the collision with the IS-2. September 1944:
      6. The best results are achieved with a massive shelling of the sides and rear of the IS-2.
      7. In addition, you should join a tank duel with the IS-2 unit of at least a platoon of Tigers. A separate “Tiger” in such a duel is doomed to destruction.

      Guderian's comments on the findings:
      3. Concerning paragraphs 5 and 6: if the enemy has 122 mm and 57 mm anti-tank guns on the Eastern Front and 92 mm guns on the Western Front and Italy, Tigers can no longer ignore combat tactics specific to other types of tanks. Like other tanks, the Tigers are no longer entitled to advance on higher ground for reconnaissance. In one of these situations, three Tigers received direct hits from 122 mm shells and were destroyed. As a result, two members of their crews died. The principles of tank tactics are as follows: tanks can cross hills only as part of a unit, quickly and under cover of artillery fire. If it is impossible to comply with these conditions, the hill should be circumvented, and this rule is well known in the heavy tank battalions of the Tigers.
      Formulations such as “pachyderms,” “invulnerable,” and “safe,” used by the crews of the Tigers, and entered into the everyday life of other tank units, should be excluded from use. Instead, the crews of the Tigers need to pay close attention to observing the basic combat rules applicable to tank dueling.

      4. Regarding paragraph 7: This conclusion is correct, but, nevertheless, three Tigers should not retreat in front of five IS-2s simply because they cannot engage with them in full platoon. In many cases, a full platoon may simply not be in such a situation. In many cases, the results of such a battle do not depend on the number of tanks, but on a higher tactical training of the crews.
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 31 May 2018 02: 39
      +1
      Quote: Bessarab
      the Tiger’s gun didn’t penetrate even when shot at close range, the tower’s forehead was not more than 300 m, and the lower frontal part of the hull was not more than 500 m

      Sorry? Is it your 8,8 cm KwK 36 that barely breaks through 100 mm of casting from 300 meters?
    3. beeper
      beeper 2 June 2018 23: 13
      +2
      hi A clear commentary on the topic Articles, Comrade Bessarab! good I liked how your knowledge ...
  20. NF68
    NF68 30 May 2018 15: 18
    +1
    Tanks repeatedly attacked each other from a distance of the order of 1000-1500 m, and in this battle the Soviet IS-2 more often won.


    Rather, the tanks fired from the indicated distances.
  21. John22
    John22 30 May 2018 18: 27
    +3
    The application in the title of the article is not justified. Well, if you show the reservation scheme, then both tanks. And information about oncoming battles is essentially zero! The meaning of writing an article?
  22. Bessarab
    Bessarab 30 May 2018 18: 39
    +6
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Quote: Bessarab
    And therefore, the leadership of the Wehrmacht forbade its tankers to engage in fights with the IS-2.

    There was no ban. There was an urgent recommendation: do not rely on armor, remember tactics and pay attention to crew training.
    Conclusions of the company commander of the Tigers about the collision with the IS-2. September 1944:
    6. The best results are achieved with a massive shelling of the sides and rear of the IS-2.
    7. In addition, you should join a tank duel with the IS-2 unit of at least a platoon of Tigers. A separate “Tiger” in such a duel is doomed to destruction.

    Guderian's comments on the findings:
    3. Concerning paragraphs 5 and 6: if the enemy has 122 mm and 57 mm anti-tank guns on the Eastern Front and 92 mm guns on the Western Front and Italy, Tigers can no longer ignore combat tactics specific to other types of tanks. Like other tanks, the Tigers are no longer entitled to advance on higher ground for reconnaissance. In one of these situations, three Tigers received direct hits from 122 mm shells and were destroyed. As a result, two members of their crews died. The principles of tank tactics are as follows: tanks can cross hills only as part of a unit, quickly and under cover of artillery fire. If it is impossible to comply with these conditions, the hill should be circumvented, and this rule is well known in the heavy tank battalions of the Tigers.
    Formulations such as “pachyderms,” “invulnerable,” and “safe,” used by the crews of the Tigers, and entered into the everyday life of other tank units, should be excluded from use. Instead, the crews of the Tigers need to pay close attention to observing the basic combat rules applicable to tank dueling.

    4. Regarding paragraph 7: This conclusion is correct, but, nevertheless, three Tigers should not retreat in front of five IS-2s simply because they cannot engage with them in full platoon. In many cases, a full platoon may simply not be in such a situation. In many cases, the results of such a battle do not depend on the number of tanks, but on a higher tactical training of the crews.

    Translated into the language of ordinary soldiers, this sounds like this = Do not stand up in a direct battle with the IS, beat them only from ambushes, but
    do not drape from them. Do not open the front, in short. You are still soldiers.
    1. Oleg_2
      Oleg_2 1 June 2018 23: 11
      +2
      By the way, the German command gave out for a padded IS-2, a 2-week vacation home, plus a parcel from Hitler with grubs ... so there were many soldiers in the Wehrmacht.
      1. Alf
        Alf 2 June 2018 17: 00
        +2
        Quote: Oleg_2
        so there were many soldiers in the Wehrmacht.

        And the powerful?
        1. Oleg_2
          Oleg_2 4 June 2018 15: 56
          +3
          Your sarcasm understood. To be honest, there are always those who wish. Although, as the Germans wrote, a meeting in the field with IS-2 is suicide for a soldier.
  23. ser56
    ser56 30 May 2018 18: 50
    +2
    it is a pity that the author reduced the role of heavy tanks only to an anti-tank function ... a large-caliber IP gun is effective in fortifying, which is no less, and maybe more important ....
    1. prodi
      prodi 30 May 2018 21: 13
      0
      a tank is a station wagon. Perhaps there is a dilemma: to be able to defend yourself and complete a combat mission, or to complete a combat mission at your own cost
  24. Bessarab
    Bessarab 30 May 2018 21: 06
    +2
    Quote: ser56
    it is a pity that the author reduced the role of heavy tanks only to an anti-tank function ... a large-caliber IP gun is effective in fortifying, which is no less, and maybe more important ....

    The Germans assigned this role to their tanks after the Battle of Kursk. For them it was important. In addition, a German tank soldier or a pilot required more time for training than the Russian guys. And the Germans tried to protect their aces as much as possible. Hence the comfortable conditions for the crews and the overweight tanks and their high cost.
    1. Alf
      Alf 30 May 2018 21: 16
      +2
      Quote: Bessarab
      Hence the comfortable conditions for the crews and the overweight tanks and their high cost.

      Hence the result of the war. Aces loners do not win. Both Germans and Japanese burnt on this, but the Russians and Americans won the war, dispersing the personnel training conveyor.
    2. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 02: 00
      +1
      and in T-IV it means no aces fought? or were they covered with screens?
      read how they prepared their pilots at the end of the war so that the air defense suffered losses even from fighter escort aircraft
    3. ser56
      ser56 31 May 2018 14: 22
      +1
      It was a mistake, because they also had tank destroyers in service.
      As for training, by the end of the war our people got this opportunity.
      But comfort in military equipment is an overkill, enough functionality, maximum usability - a tank lives a little in war ... request
      1. YELLOWSTONE
        YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 15: 36
        +3
        comfort even with labor protection is not an excess
        1. ser56
          ser56 1 June 2018 11: 00
          +1
          which is better - 1 "comfortable" tiger or 3 functional IS-2? and in production just like that ...
          1. YELLOWSTONE
            YELLOWSTONE 2 June 2018 06: 12
            +1
            comfortable armchair cost like two tanks?
            six panthers are better
            1. Cannonball
              Cannonball 2 June 2018 09: 52
              +2
              Six Panthers cost 780 Reichsmarks, at 000 RM apiece (at the rate of 130, 000 RM = 1940 rubles),
              Tiger cost 350 RM,
              IS-2 in the years 44-45 was in the range of 270 000 - 230 000 rubles.
              The T-34 in the years 41-45 was in the range of 275 - 000 rubles.
              So consider which is better.
              1. ser56
                ser56 2 June 2018 13: 01
                +1
                Thanks for the digital. In general, it turns out - 1 Tiger is 3 IS-2 ... the combat value is not comparable ...
                1. YELLOWSTONE
                  YELLOWSTONE 3 June 2018 08: 22
                  0
                  the cost of a comfortable chair for IS is not disclosed
                  sight, too, snipers in the infantry were more or less normal
                  1. Cannonball
                    Cannonball 3 June 2018 13: 26
                    +1
                    And why only the cost of a "comfortable chair for IS"? You still forgot about the cost of a "comfortable sofa for IS" and a "comfortable Jacuzzi for IS."

                    And what is wrong with the sight?
                    The tank commander had a whole set of observational instruments — the MK-4 periscope device, six target slits in the turret, the PPU-8T telescopic sight, and the K8-T collimator sight.
                    The gunner has a telescopic sight TSh-17 with a magnification of 4x and a field of view of 16 °, a periscope sight PT4-17.
                    The charging person has two sighting slits, a periscope device MK-4.
                    The driver has a sighting slit and two periscope devices MK-4.
                    1. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 3 June 2018 22: 33
                      -1
                      maybe even a cheek on the butt for snipers is an excess?
                      arm the soldiers with slingshots at the same time, save on their power
                      1. Cannonball
                        Cannonball 3 June 2018 23: 12
                        +2
                        Why else are you complaining about? To the lack of a warm toilet, blackjack and girls of "low social responsibility"?

                        “Tigers” and “Panthers” were so bad that they were prohibitively expensive for the Reich. Their production drained financially and resourcefully the already not the richest Germany.
                    2. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 3 June 2018 23: 23
                      0
                      they didn’t have enough fuel for so many tanks
                      even because of problems not with such scarce kerosene as gasoline, only every fifth jet messenger flew, the rest did not take to the air even once
                      this was especially noticeable in tanks in Hungary in March 1945, in April-May 1945 the German group simply bypassed on the way to Prague
                      at the end they got the same fuel shortage due to which, having caused it to be destroyed by the fuel engineers, they almost won at the beginning of the war
                      1. Cannonball
                        Cannonball 3 June 2018 23: 44
                        +1
                        Towards the end of the war with fuel in the Reich, there was trouble, but in 41-43 we also had problems with fuel, but the Battle of Moscow, the Battle of Stalingrad, the Kursk Bulge fell precisely on these years.
                      2. ser56
                        ser56 4 June 2018 12: 31
                        +1
                        Starting the war, the Germans were obliged to think about resources ... However, they thoughtlessly sprayed them, including on the FAA, etc.
                        Guderian, for some reason, had a sufficiently modernized 4k ... But the difference could be directed to the construction of a synthetic fuel plant ... bully .
                      3. YELLOWSTONE
                        YELLOWSTONE 5 June 2018 07: 35
                        +1
                        starting the war, they were confident in the blitzkrieg and victory in it
                        then everyone ran after this empty expenditure of resources
  25. DesToeR
    DesToeR 30 May 2018 21: 17
    +4
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Worse, machines by weight are compared only by young (head) fans of the Soviet tank school.

    If so, why are these tanks called "heavy"? Not strong, not powerful, or even, for example, thick-armored, namely heavy?
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Similarly, Panther’s weight doesn’t make it a turret assault self-propelled gun / PT reinforcement vehicle, like the IS-2

    And here is a simple question: why? Where is that criterion of "turret" and "self-propelled"? Panther weighed like a Soviet heavy. (HF or IP is not particularly important). It had a medium-caliber gun (like KV, for example). And she had very mediocre mobility on the battlefield (inferior to the IS tank, for example). Question: why is Panther not the so-called Fri SPG?

    Quote: Cherry Nine
    The Germans, followed by the Anglo-Americans, went to MBT, relatively speaking, through the KV-85, and not through the T-34-85.

    Everyone went to the MBT not through the strands or medium tanks, but starting from the technical requirements of the customer. In the USSR, they were able to create their MBT in a weight of up to 40 tons, in the West - in a weight of 50 tons with a plus. The security and firepower of the T-64 was not inferior to its Western counterparts. Just the first MBT was created in Kharkov, and not in Leningrad. The T-64 had nothing to do with the most recent Soviet T-62 medium tank. And the difference of 10 tons in the weight of Soviet MBTs compared to Western ones is explained by the presence of an automatic loader and, as a result, one and a half times less reserved volume.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 31 May 2018 02: 57
      0
      Quote: DesToeR
      If so, why are these tanks called "heavy"?

      Because the same tank can be medium, then heavy, then medium again. Question of mood. Heavy IS-2 by weight is lighter than the lightweight Centurion of later versions. It is important what place the tank occupies in the troops, and not as it is called.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Where is that criterion of "turret" and "self-propelled"?

      At the beginning of the war - a howitzer with separate loading. But the A-19 was no longer a howitzer, and then separate loading was no longer unusual. The Americans put a 120mm anti-aircraft gun with separate loading, like the Yagdtiger, on the tank, and it no longer mattered where the tanks were, but where the self-propelled guns were.
      However, as noted above, in the Red Army there were no turret self-propelled guns, but there were artillery tanks.
      Quote: DesToeR
      possessed very mediocre mobility on the battlefield (inferior to the IS tank, for example).

      It seems that in Kubinka they did not agree with you.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Question: why is Panther not the so-called Fri SPG?

      You’ll laugh, but I perceive the panther and king-game exactly as a tank destroyer with additional tank capabilities. Not only that, if a conical gun was riveted to the Tiger, as they originally wanted, its claims to be a tank would be completely unfounded.
      Quote: DesToeR
      In the USSR, they were able to create their MBT in a weight of up to 40 tons, in the West - in a weight of 50 tons with a plus

      Nonsense. In the USSR, a 30-ton tank was a mass one, and development proceeded from it, which is quite logical. In the West, at the end of the war, they spat on the development of medium-sized cars and immediately made a 45-ton platform like Panther, and it was developed. Could afford to rebuild production, engineering services, etc.
      Quote: DesToeR
      The security and firepower of the T-64 tank was not inferior to its Western counterparts

      I would even say it was significantly superior to the analogues in the form of the M60.
      Quote: DesToeR
      And the difference of 10t in the weight of Soviet MBTs compared to Western ones is explained by the presence of an automatic loader and, as a result, one and a half times less reserved volume.

      The difference in weight is not explained by the AZ, and Leclerc has it, but by the desire to minimize the reserved volume. While the Germans and further in the West were ready to inflate the reserved volume for all sorts of different reasons. Just off Panther, a very well-armored bus.
      Both approaches have their pros and cons.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 12: 32
      0
      it’s strange how the comment prevented your opponent from writing “Troll” about himself in his very bottom profile, which is true because the weight of the tank does not depend on mood,
      no one in his mind comes to rename the T-1,2 into wedges, and the Tiger-1,2 with a weight like that of an abrams or merkava from heavy to MBT
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 31 May 2018 13: 44
        0
        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
        the weight of the tank does not depend on the mood,

        I described the real situation of a classification change taking place with a real machine. If you do not know about this story - your business.
        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
        and the Tiger-1,2 with a weight like that of an abrams or a merkava from heavy in MBT

        Tigers could not be considered "main" because they were armed with individual battalions, and not armored divisions as the main (in number) machine. As for their weight, as you may have noticed earlier, I'm not too interested.
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 15: 07
          0
          why so? Tigers-1,2 MBT and the rest are tank parts lol
          it does not work retroactively, especially when it is still so irrational and many years after the end of the events described
          1. YELLOWSTONE
            YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 15: 20
            0
            I'm not too interested.

            but everyone is completely uninteresting before that uninteresting Yes
  26. Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat 31 May 2018 09: 47
    +2
    And why is it not written that the Tiger tower turned from a hydraulic drive driven by the main engine? And the turret turning speed depended on the engine speed. And this is very important, remember how often it is mentioned, the slow tip of the "Tiger"? The fact is that they fired mainly from the parking position and the Tiger needed to always leave the engine running at low speeds to turn the turret, which reduced the already low engine life and unmasked the tank in ambush and gave the turret a slow turn. In the memoirs of the German tankers there are moments when they complain that they hit the Soviet tanks with the first shot almost always, but then, when the brisk “thirty-fours” approached the distance when the angular displacement howled great, the Tiger no longer had time to turn the tower. ....
    1. -Pollux
      -Pollux 31 May 2018 11: 59
      0
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      "Tiger" did not have time to turn the tower .....

      And add gas during the battle?
      1. YELLOWSTONE
        YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 15: 08
        0
        probably it could not be added too sharply in the parking lot
        1. -Pollux
          -Pollux 31 May 2018 15: 26
          +2
          Quote: YELLOWSTONE
          probably it could not be added too sharply in the parking lot

          Driving without load is bad for any engine. However, getting an enemy shell into a tank is even more harmful.
          1. YELLOWSTONE
            YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 15: 37
            +1
            it’s more harmful then to ride with a jammed
      2. Monster_Fat
        Monster_Fat 31 May 2018 15: 12
        +1
        And read the recollections of German tankers ....- they basically set up ambushes in dug caponiers, if you gassed, firstly, you immediately give an ambush by exhaust, secondly, the trench quickly fills with exhaust gases, and there is nothing to breathe, you had to leave the place ambush and retreat to the right distance, but .... by this time, the fast-moving "thirty-four" were already in the rear ...
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 15: 23
          0
          and in the third, the turret rotation system will simply fly out wassat
    2. Oleg_2
      Oleg_2 1 June 2018 02: 18
      +2
      Partly you are right ... But you forgot that tankers learn quickly in war. Yes. the tower on the Tiger rotated slowly, and the German tank crews found a way out, they turned the entire tank, their frontal armor to the desired angle in place. So quick. PS I watched a film about SS veterans there, one tanker said that. By the way, in the chronicle of the Second World War, they often show how, when testing the Tiger, he turned in place ... he dug a bunch of land.
  27. Cer59
    Cer59 31 May 2018 16: 17
    +3
    Well, the author would need to know the IS-2 took the Tiger in the forehead from 1800 meters regardless of the point of impact.
    A tiger from 1200 m could hit the IS-2.
    Now about the rate of fire. I don’t know what the hell out of the Tiger’s high rate of fire and why.
    the ammunition was extremely uncomfortable.
    If you look at the ammunition shell, then it is located on the sides of the tank, and the loader can get 3 extreme shells in the nearest ammunition box without problems. and even then the pace will be at least 15, 20 seconds per shot, but the rest of the shells get it from the field of strength gymnastics.
    The article on the Royal Tiger is more or less convenient access to only 8 shells of the tower. so that the chances of losing were equal. except for the much greater range of the IS-2 striking fire.
  28. Doliva63
    Doliva63 31 May 2018 17: 49
    +6
    The weapons of the winners are the best. Otherwise, it is the weapon of the vanquished. What is there to discuss?
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 31 May 2018 20: 24
      0
      why don’t you ride it yet? since then there haven’t been any big victories
    2. Grafova Irina
      Grafova Irina 1 June 2018 07: 58
      0
      Lightweight approach
  29. mkpda
    mkpda 31 May 2018 18: 13
    +3
    The author, the title of the article and its contents are two big differences. Without analyzing the tactics of using heavy tanks, the discussion of TTX loses all meaning. Analysis of direct collisions - no. Extremely weak article.
  30. Looking for
    Looking for 31 May 2018 18: 47
    -1
    Here's what I advise connoisseurs - compare the number of photos of the burnt Ises and Tigers. But front-line photos, this is the truth of war.
    1. mkpda
      mkpda 1 June 2018 11: 42
      +4
      It is only necessary to consider the number of cameras and the quality of photographic materials on both sides. PR in Germany was promoted much better than in the USSR.
    2. beeper
      beeper 3 June 2018 01: 23
      +3
      In the Red Army legally they had a camera and only photographers of political departments took photographs (photos for party cards and other official photographs) and photo correspondents (mostly staged photos, such as "Politruk raises fighters to attack" or "PTR fighters shoot at an enemy tank ...") it was forbidden to the rest of the military (and captured cameras were immediately seized), so there are so few Soviet shots from the front and the rear!
      So front-line photos are not always exactly that “truth of war”, which it is sometimes considered! wink
  31. Alf
    Alf 31 May 2018 21: 24
    0
    YELLOWSTONE,
    Read your words about comparing the speed of Panther shells.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 1 June 2018 08: 15
      0
      they brought the number a 925 not for sub-caliber bolts, but for ordinary armor-piercing bolts with explosives for earlier guns that she could also shoot
      1. Alf
        Alf 1 June 2018 19: 45
        0
        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
        they brought the number a 925 not for sub-caliber bolts, but for ordinary armor-piercing bolts with explosives for earlier guns that she could also shoot

        For what early? You at least TTX Panthers open.
        I repeat again, there were really no caliber shells in the Panther BC.
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE 2 June 2018 06: 08
          0
          in these performance characteristics you need to look
          in the Soviet memoirs of military and tank builders, too, where it says about 2 times greater NS or the kinetic energy of German high-pressure guns
          1. Alf
            Alf 2 June 2018 16: 58
            +1
            Quote: YELLOWSTONE
            in these performance characteristics you need to look

            I bring it especially for you.
            1. YELLOWSTONE
              YELLOWSTONE 3 June 2018 08: 26
              0
              specially you had to see there yourself when they wrote all about 925 and "nothing outstanding"
  32. Witness 45
    Witness 45 1 June 2018 01: 15
    0
    YELLOWSTONE,
    The balance of losses was not in favor of the T-34, that’s true, but it’s only necessary to keep in mind that by the time the “panthers” were widely used on the battlefields, the Red Army began to conduct offensive operations, and in the offensive, as you know, the advancing party usually suffers heavy losses.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 1 June 2018 07: 58
      0
      on a panther with her sub-caliber it was like going out with a gun against a rifle and she was more mobile than IS
      Germans often counterattacked themselves, except Belarus, especially in the Baltic states and Hungary, while they suffered less losses, in Hungary they had to defend against the Royal Tigers and the yagdpanther with PT-aryillery as before on the Kursk
  33. igordok
    igordok 1 June 2018 11: 55
    0
    YELLOWSTONE,
    If the breech is different (sleeve size), then the tools are different. Some Flak, others Kwk, Pak.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 2 June 2018 06: 10
      0
      the gun, in principle, is one, it’s clear that the tank was redone under the tank
      1. igordok
        igordok 2 June 2018 07: 21
        0
        Then 75mm guns are one. Remade, but one thing. love 6 types of guns with a unitary PSU and 6 types of guns with separate charging - were redone, but the same thing. lol laughing
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE 3 June 2018 08: 28
          0
          the tool consists not only of a breech
          we even more dispersed the anti-aircraft gun which we liked before and used the anti-tank gun
          in the panther immediately stood the PT-gun
          Kwk's Pak differs even less
          1. igordok
            igordok 3 June 2018 14: 26
            0
            The dimensions of the breech, the dimensions of the barrel (caliber and length), the presence or type of recoil device, the presence or type of muzzle brake - all this affects the quality of the shot. Changing any parameter even to the minimum parameters leads to a new tool. Formally, Kwk, Pak, Flak, even having one caliber and one type of ammunition will never be the same. For them use the term - guns with similar ballistics.
            About 88mm. FlaK 18 / 36 / 37 and KwK 36 having the same caliber and barrel length are different guns, at least by the presence of a muzzle brake in KwK and a different ignition system. (I apologize in the last comment, I forgot about KwK 36). These guns have similar ballistics, but they cannot be called identical. KwK 43 and Cancer 43, although they have the same caliber and a similar PSU, cannot be called the same.
            About 75mm. The PzV - Kwk 42 gun is not similar to either the Pak 40 PTO or the KwK 40 tank gun.
            1. YELLOWSTONE
              YELLOWSTONE 3 June 2018 22: 33
              0
              C pak42 it is similar
              1. 019
                019 18 January 2019 02: 21
                0
                Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                C pak42 it is similar

                There was no such gun. Most often they call it StuK 42. These are the ones that stood on the Jagdpanzer IV.
                Transportable options did not exist.
  34. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 1 June 2018 12: 04
    +4
    Comparison of tanks as a means of destroying other tanks is very meaningless. The transformation of tanks into anti-tank weapons is the main mistake of the German concept of using armored vehicles in a war.
    1. ser56
      ser56 1 June 2018 14: 23
      +1
      not only Germans, Abrams created in the same concept
  35. tank64rus
    tank64rus 1 June 2018 14: 23
    +3
    The result issued by the Wehrmacht command instruction to German tankmen. where tank dueling with IS-2 was prohibited and it was prescribed to conduct battles with this machine from ambushes and shelters. I read it for fun. And also the IS-2 with its gun was invaluable for supporting infantry during urban battles.
  36. kig
    kig 1 June 2018 15: 39
    +2
    And let's listen to those who fought on them?

    Fadin A.M. tank commander T-34-76:
    We stood in caponiers dug on the slope of the vineyard. A kilometer before us was a monastery. Suddenly, a Tiger crawls out from behind a stone wall of the fence. Has stopped. Behind him one more, then another. Crawled out ten of them. Well, we think - Khan, they will get us. In fear, the eyes are always large. Out of nowhere, our two IS 2s are coming. I saw them for the first time. We caught up with us, stood up. The two Tigers separate and step forward a bit, sort of like a duel. Ours preceded them with a shot and demolished both towers. The rest - once, once and beyond the wall

    Otto Carius, commander of the Tiger tank:

    When the T 34 with a long-barreled gun appeared, did you notice its appearance?
    - At first we just saw him! But this did not come as a surprise to us. We already knew about him and waited a long time for his appearance. He was even more dangerous than the former. But “Stalin” [IP 2], in my opinion, turned out to be more or less unnecessary. With this separate loading of it ... And he is all the same heavy, probably. I have never even seen "Stalin" in motion.


    Zakharov B.P., commander of a company of tanks IS-2:


    What is the rate of fire of an IS-2 tank gun? - A maximum of two rounds per minute. The loader had hard work: at first it was necessary to lay a shell weighing about 25 kilograms, push it with a wooden rammer, then take a sleeve, which also weighs 25 kilograms, stuff it there. This, of course, is a very long time, but if already hit, then the target was definitely hit.
  37. Cannonball
    Cannonball 1 June 2018 19: 54
    +1
    The undoubted advantage of the German tank was a higher rate of fire associated with a smaller caliber of the projectile and a different loading method. The Soviet tankers needed at least 20 s to prepare for the shot, while the German loader could take 8-10 s. Thus, the "Tiger" could quickly adjust the tip and make a second shot with greater accuracy.
    Here it is worth considering such a parameter as the speed of rotation of the tower. For Tiger, it did not exceed 6 degrees per second, for IS-2 - 13-16 degrees per second. With a large angular velocity of the target, the “Tiger” had few chances to hit it.
  38. Cannonball
    Cannonball 1 June 2018 20: 17
    +2
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Tell us, for a start, from what distance the Panther hit the T-34-85 in the frontal projection of a projectile of the BB of the Second World War. And as it was the other way around.
    The armor-piercing shell T-34-85 penetrated the Panther’s frontal armor by 1000 m. The Panther shells had a significantly higher armor penetration. This is a fact, but! At a distance of more than 1000 m, the tank, which is the target, not only needs to be able to get into, but it must also be discovered before.
  39. DesToeR
    DesToeR 1 June 2018 21: 01
    +2
    Quote: Cannonball
    Armor-piercing shell T-34-85 pierced the frontal armor of the Panther 1000 m

    I didn’t penetrate, Panther’s armor from the forehead was better than that of the Tiger, because 85 ... 82mm sheet had a slope. The reduced thickness of the frontal sheet of the Panther was higher than that of the Tiger. The Mask of the Gun and, accordingly, the frontal armor of the tower was also thicker than that of the Tiger. The T-34-85 was dangerous to Panther in a frontal projection at a distance of no more than 800m and from a distance of up to 500m was deadly. Another question is why did the German tankers on the Tigers and Panthers so fear the T-34-85? The answer is simple: on ETVD the maximum range of line of sight rarely exceeds 1800m, and the most common distance is not more than 500 ... 1000m. Those. when meeting with T-34-85, in most cases, the opponents were at a distance of the actual fire of the Soviet tank. Of course, the Germans had a higher probability of breaking through, but the hit of an 85mm shell for the Tiger and Panther was no longer without a trace.
    1. Cannonball
      Cannonball 2 June 2018 09: 23
      +1
      On modifications of 1943, the frontal armor of the Panther was: the forehead of the hull (top), mm / deg. 80/57°, forehead of the hull (bottom), mm/deg. 60/53°.

      The armor penetration table of the 85-mm S-53 tank gun at a meeting angle of 60 °:
      UBR-365 projectile armor-piercing blunt-headed with a ballistic tip, tracing - 83-85 mm at a distance of 1000 m
      The UBR-365K projectile is pointed-headed armor-piercing, tracing - 75-78 mm at a distance of 1000 m.
      UBR-365P projectile armor-piercing subcaliber coil type tracer - 80 mm at a distance of 1000 m

      Somewhat more reinforced armor on the Panther appeared with the Ausf version. G, which went into series since March 1944, was beaten from a slightly shorter distance - 700-800 m.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 2 June 2018 14: 31
        +1
        Quote: Cannonball
        The armor penetration table of the 85-mm S-53 tank gun at a meeting angle of 60 °:

        Yeah. Only the table you are reading is wrong.
        Penetration at an angle of 60 does not mean that the projectile normalizes and pierces the armor down, perpendicular to the sheet. Punching needs a normalized thickness. VLD Panthers for BB S-53 is impenetrable.
        1. ser56
          ser56 2 June 2018 14: 47
          +1
          blunt-headed projectile is quite normal ...
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 2 June 2018 22: 30
            +1
            Quote: ser56
            blunt-headed projectile is quite normal ...

            With a very small ratio.

            If you suddenly want to find out how things were going with Panther VLD in the real 43rd, and not imaginary, you can type “Cuban shelling Panther”, for example.
        2. Cannonball
          Cannonball 3 June 2018 14: 15
          0
          However, the frontal armor of the tower still made its way from 1000 m. And there 110 mm at 10 degrees.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 3 June 2018 17: 57
            0
            Quote: Cannonball
            However, the frontal armor of the tower still made its way from 1000 m

            Are you talking about the results of the shelling, or about what?
            However, the results of shelling cars 43 and 45 years can be very different. Towards the end of the war, cats were really sad.
            1. Cannonball
              Cannonball 3 June 2018 19: 15
              +1
              And about the shelling, too.
              On the other hand, during a fleet tank battle where everything and everyone flickers and rumbles, who will count from what distance armor penetration occurred from 500 m or 1000 m. The main thing here is just to get in and try not to substitute yourself.
              Therefore, all talk about this is very subjective.
              Take even today's day, tank biathlon, greenhouse conditions, modern technology, excellent optics, ballistic computers ... and still smear.
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 3 June 2018 23: 55
                +1
                Quote: Cannonball
                shelling too.

                Do not understand.
                Are you aware of the tests, according to which the crews of the T-34-85 were recommended to target the towers? Please provide a link.
                I know 2 simple things:
                1. Based on the results of the battles in France, the American 76 mm gun was considered useless in head-on battles with the Panthers.
                2.
                American 76-mm armor-piercing shells penetrate the side sheets of the Tiger-B tank from a distance of 1,5-2 times greater than the domestic 85-mm armor-piercing shells. "

                https://mihalchuk-1974.livejournal.com/89940.html
  40. Raider
    Raider 1 June 2018 23: 53
    0
    You do not forget about engines.
    The Germans are carburetors.
    Russians are diesel.
    The engine is the heart of the car, and you are all guns, guns ... MAIN TAIL)))))!
    The tank must be considered in the complex:
    1. The cost of the tank and the standard hours for the assembly of a new machine.
    2. The range of ammunition used, including for the destruction of enemy manpower.
    3. Maintainability in the field.
    4. Demand for fuel and maintenance.
    5. Weight - tanks drive along bridges and carry the railway road (size requirements). (Like on the Tigers, the other caterpillars dressed on the train ???).
    6. etc ..... etc
    This will give a technical effect + training and psychological state of the crew. Do not forget that attackers lose 1,5-2 times more than defenders.
  41. kig
    kig 3 June 2018 02: 20
    +2
    Here we are measured by erudition, but wouldn’t we turn to the primary sources, so to speak? Here are quotes from the book "I Fought on the T-34," which, as you know, is collected from the memoirs of the participants in the war, and not the marshals and generals.

    without exception, all tankers surveyed admire the sights of German tank guns. As an example, let us recall the memoirs of V.P. Brukhova: “We have always noted the high-quality Zeiss optics of sights. And until the end of the war, it was of high quality. We did not have such optics. The sights themselves were more convenient than ours. We have an aiming mark in the form of a triangle, and from it to the right and left are risks. They had these divisions, adjustments for wind, range, something else. "

    the main problem of communication means of T-34 tanks in 1941-1942. it was not so much their quantity as the quality of the 71-TK-3 stations themselves. Tankers assessed its capabilities as very moderate. “On the way, she took about 6 kilometers” (PI Kirichenko). The same opinion is expressed by other tankers. “Radio station 71-TK-3, as I remember now, is a complex, unstable radio station. She very often broke down, and it was very difficult to put her in order, ”recalls A.V. Bodnar.

    statistically, tanks with diesel engines did not have advantages in fire safety in relation to cars with carburetor engines. According to statistics from October 1942, diesel T-34s burned even slightly more often than T-70 tanks fueled with aviation gasoline (23% versus 19%). The engineers of the NIIBT test site in Kubinka in 1943 came to a conclusion that is exactly the opposite of the everyday assessment of the possibilities of ignition of various types of fuel. “The use by the Germans on the new tank, produced in 1942, of a carburetor engine, rather than a diesel engine, can be explained by: […] a very significant percentage of fires in combat conditions with diesel engines and their lack of significant advantages over carburetor engines in this respect, especially with the competent design of the latter and the availability of reliable automatic fire extinguishers ”[3]. Bringing the torch to a bucket of gasoline, the designer Kucherenko set fire to a vapor of volatile fuel. There was no vapors in the bucket over the diesel oil layer, favorable for ignition by the torch. But this fact did not mean that diesel fuel would not ignite from a much more powerful means of ignition - a projectile hit. Therefore, the placement of fuel tanks in the fighting compartment of the T-34 tank did not at all increase the fire safety of the thirty-four in comparison with their peers, whose tanks were located in the rear of the hull and were hit much less frequently. V.P. Bryukhov confirms what was said: “When does the tank catch fire? When the projectile hits the fuel tank. And it burns when there is a lot of fuel. And by the end of the fighting there is no fuel, and the tank hardly burns. "
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 3 June 2018 08: 30
      0
      it burns in different ways and the Germans set the carburetor because the diesel was needed for the submarine and in the tanks they used more synthetic gasoline
  42. Brigadier
    Brigadier 3 June 2018 16: 37
    +2
    Both the Tiger and the IS-2 are heavy vehicles of about the same class and type. Both that and another - serious fighting vehicles of that time.
    But let's not forget that the EXACTLY German command forbade direct orders to their tiger-panther-tankers to engage in frontal combat with the IS-2.
    Our IS command did not give such an order. And that says a lot ...
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 3 June 2018 22: 39
      0
      The type may be but not the weight; according to it, the IS-2 is the same as the panther. At the beginning of the war, the Germans also did not accept frontal battles, retreated and, becoming a return wedge, waited for the Soviet attack so that the tanks would substitute the sides. In the forehead, the panther hit tanks at maximum range. The Royal Tiger in general as well, and it was not always shaking shells with the IS-2.
  43. Cannonball
    Cannonball 3 June 2018 19: 09
    +2
    Cherry nine, everything in this world is subjective, and your opinion, and mine, and your "serious people", and "my pop experts." The only objective thing is that the T-34-76 / T-34-85 in terms of all the combat, technical, technological and economic characteristics was indeed the best tank of the Second World War. One of the arguments in favor of this statement can be considered its longevity. It was in service with the USSR / RF until 1993, and at storage bases until 2005 BC. In a number of developing countries, T-34s are in service today.
    In the world there are not so many left in the ranks of the development tanks of the 2nd World War, which were in service in the 21st century, and the T-34 is still armed and very dangerous.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 3 June 2018 22: 42
      0
      No, the production of panthers, for example, was immediately scattered by technology in small factories, with the T-34 this never happened
      what the Germans didn’t get to before the production of BOPS in its pure form when it can be used for the same purposes instead of sub-caliber shells from a medium 120mm large-caliber cannon which will have a normal OFS
      1. Cannonball
        Cannonball 4 June 2018 00: 16
        0
        "Thirty-four" was built in Kharkov, Stalingrad, Gorky, Nizhny Tagil, Chelyabinsk, Sverdlovsk, Omsk. And this is not counting the large number of subcontractors, including small ones.

        The Germans had a 12,8 cm caliber gun Pak 44 L / 55. She was installed on a Jagdtiger with an OFS weighing 28 kg (BB 3,6 kg).
        For comparison, the OB-471 grenade RP for a 122-mm D-25T gun mounted on the IS-2 weighed 25 kg (explosive 3 kg).
        By the way, the Pak 44 L / 55 armor-piercing capacity was crazy: for 500 m - 166-235 mm, for 1000 m - 143-210 mm, for 2000 m - 117-190 mm.
        Until 1948, there was no tank in the world that could withstand the impact of its 28-kg shell. The first tank capable of withstanding shelling from PaK 44 was in 1949 an experienced Soviet tank IS-7.
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE 5 June 2018 07: 40
          0
          these were all large factories, not a network of small factories
          these guns appeared due to problems with American tungsten, and before that 5 of these tanks kept the Americans offensive in Italy, this self-propelled gun is almost twice as heavy as panther
      2. goose
        goose 21 June 2018 12: 21
        +1
        1. Tungsten sub-caliber ammunition has been absent from the ammunition depots of real tanks since 1942. They were issued individually to few tank aces. Over 98% of the projectiles fired were PzGr39. In anti-tank guns,% of sub-caliber shells was even less. Actually 1-2 shells per barrel. Therefore, the characteristics of such shells are not discussed. The USSR also produced subcaliber shells from tungsten in limited quantities, despite the huge reserves of tungsten, due to the high cost of production.
        2. Tanks fight not with tanks, but with field fortifications. If you read the book of Carius "Tanks in the mud", more than 90% of the battles - PT-guns and infantry. OFS KWK 36 was more or less enough to deal with Fri artillery. OFS KWK 42 from Panther had a fragmentation effect less than that of the 45-mm guns, and was extremely insufficient. High-explosive action was not enough for the reliable destruction of the bunker in 3 rolls. The circular scattering among the guns was unambiguously better for the D25T than for the KWK36 and KWK42. Even without sub-caliber shells. At firing distances over 1 km, the advantage was for the IS-2, Tiger, Panther last.
        3. Anti-tank artillery.
        In view of the fact that> 70% of AT artillery hits in WWII were on the sides of the equipment, the Panther was clearly losing to both the IS-2 and the PzKpfw VIE. The vulnerability to light anti-tank vehicles looks strange in general, even for a medium tank.
        4. Panther - "blind" tank, even compared to the Tiger. In addition to the sight of the gunner, there is nothing.
        IS-2 is better than that in this respect. The tiger is slightly worse than the IS-2. Those. PzKpfwV could not find the PT gun at real shooting distances before its first shot.

        As a result, the Panther can effectively deal with field fortifications and tanks at a distance of up to 1 km, which is qualitatively inferior to the heavy tanks under consideration. Everything else is an exception. This is indirectly confirmed by the large losses of the Panthers relative to the Tigers and IS2 in offensive operations.
        1. goose
          goose 21 June 2018 12: 27
          0
          You can discuss the T-34-85 in defense, when one tower sticks out with an armor thickness of 90mm, or cumulative shells. The Panther will also not be up to par. Perhaps the Panther’s unique property is the ability to enter the tank’s silhouette on the move at a distance of 400-600 m at a speed of up to 30 km / h, and to conduct intensive fire from ambushes using medium-range techniques, which sometimes affected.
        2. 019
          019 18 January 2019 02: 13
          -2
          Quote: goose
          OFS KWK 36 was more or less enough to deal with Fri artillery.

          With a huge margin. You could shoot without even aiming. About.
          Quote: goose
          OFS KWK 42 from Panther had a fragmentation effect less than that of the 45-mm guns, and was extremely insufficient.

          Area Effective Lesion Sprgr. 42 was approximately 31 square meters. m
          The area of ​​effective destruction of the pre-war 45 mm OFS was 7,0-7,5 square meters. m
          The area of ​​effective destruction of 45 mm OFS wartime was approximately 5 square meters. m
          Is there some difference, right?
          In addition, the "stupid checkerboard suspension" of the Pz.V required a gun with an efficiency of about 30 sq. m. Therefore, the designers of the KwK42 brilliantly coped with the task, ensured the fragmentation of the OFS at the minimum permissible level, leaving everything else to the armor penetration of its BBS.
          For reference, OS F-34 (O-350A) provided an effective damage area of ​​about 16-17 square meters. m
          At the same time, the T-34 suspension of the "funny swing" type required fragmentation of the OFS of the order of 40 sq. m.
          Quote: goose
          The circular scattering among the guns was definitely better for the D25T than for the KWK36 and KWK42

          Oh mom.
          Quote: goose
          At firing distances over 1 km, the advantage was for the IS-2, Tiger, Panther last.

          Killed by this nonsense.
          Quote: goose
          Due to the fact that> 70% of AT artillery hits in WWII were on board the equipment

          It is necessary to compare not so. It is necessary to compare the loss of VET guns per one frontal penetration and one airborne penetration. You will be surprised, but to beat the forehead was much more profitable. Only here, Soviet artillery basically could not do this. Due to her wickedness.
          Quote: goose
          Vulnerability from light PTs generally looks strange even for a medium tank.

          You will be surprised, but the Panthers fought not alone, but in groups. And they used certain tactics. Therefore, the armor of their sides was not particularly significant.
          Quote: goose
          The Panther is a "blind" tank, even compared to the Tiger.

          There is a commander's cupola.
          Quote: goose
          Those. PzKpfwV could not find the PT gun at real shooting distances before its first shot.

          And what, the commanders in the Panthers were eyeless people with disabilities?
          Quote: goose
          than qualitatively inferior to the considered heavy tanks.

          What heavy tanks?
          The tiger is a German heavy tank. Or superheavy in other armies.
          IS-2, is a turret self-propelled gun supporting BTT. Heavy tanks in the USSR were not produced at all. However, like the middle ones. Could not, the technological base did not allow. And above all, of course, there were no tank guns. Not issued.
          1. goose
            goose 18 January 2019 09: 32
            +1
            Quote: 019
            Area Effective Lesion Sprgr. 42 was approximately 31 square meters. m

            I’m afraid to disappoint you, the indicated shell had a passport damage area of ​​only 3 meters with an ellipse of fragments strongly elongated strictly forward, i.e. 10 times less than the specified value. In practice, in view of the fuse, it always buried itself in the ground with a value of damage by fragments = 0. That is, only a DIRECT hit was needed.
            Compared with the projectile from KWK36, then the projectile was 2 times larger, and it had a fragmentation effect at the OFS ZIS-3 level, which was quite enough to deal with anti-tank fire during accurate shooting.
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 4 June 2018 00: 41
      +1
      Quote: Cannonball
      Your opinion, and mine, and your "serious people", and "my pop experts"

      I seem to have been misunderstood. I respect the opinion of Svirin, Kolomiyets and Baryatinsky much more than the Discovery Channel and English books "little by little about everything."
      Quote: Cannonball
      Objectively, only

      That the T-34 was more suitable for Leningrad 41-42 threats and suitability for mass production at evacuated enterprises than Leningrad machines. The T-50 did not have an engine, and the HF was harder. Unfortunately, Kharkov citizens worked frankly to get rid of, not to say rude. Stakhanovites in the worst sense. Because of this, the tank was finished up until the Korean War.
      Quote: Cannonball
      It was in service with the USSR / RF until 1993,

      What kind of junk was not in service with the USSR. Grandfather wasn’t enough just to leave under Abrash.
      Quote: Cannonball
      in a number of developing countries, the T-34s are in service today.

      Quote: Cannonball
      T-34 is still armed and very dangerous.

      To whom is he dangerous in Yemen, Lord God !? Saudi M1A2 and Leopard 2A7? OAshny AMX-56 Leclerc? Are you not ashamed to push such agitation?
      1. Town Hall
        Town Hall 4 June 2018 00: 48
        0
        I’m afraid that the next post will be about ".... after 70 years, carefully backed off the pedestal and went straight into battle ..."
      2. Cannonball
        Cannonball 4 June 2018 20: 30
        +1
        The opinion of our experts is really significant, but the recognition of the T-34 as the best direct and potential adversary is worth a lot. And you will not blame them for opportunism and bias.

        The T-34 was cheaper and more technologically advanced than any classmate on both sides of the front line. This is its huge plus - the possibility of mass production.

        T-34 is not junk, but quite a normal tank. Only a clinical cretin can poke it under the abrash, but with bradley and cougars it is quite combat-ready, and NATO also has a lot of ancient scrap metal, which is quite capable of thirty-four.

        Although there is a T-34 in Yemen, where are the vaunted Tigers and Payers?
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 4 June 2018 23: 35
          0
          Quote: Cannonball
          immediate and potential adversary is well worth it. And you will not blame them for opportunism and bias.

          What? Can’t you blame the Germans for market conditions? They didn’t write about the T-34 at all, you know. They wrote that their tanks of the 41st year (deuces and 38 (t), relatively rare triples and fours with short guns) were inadequate to the new theater. And they were right. In the 42nd they corrected the guns and nagging went on other topics. As for the Englishman, he generally does not care about tanks.
          Quote: Cannonball
          The T-34 was cheaper and more technologically advanced than any classmate on both sides of the front line.

          Nonsense. You are well aware that just the T-34 with its body without right angles, a unique engine, a unique and curved chassis was not cheap and technological. Cheap and technological was a completely different tank, made of large armored castings and commercial components. And the T-34 was not cheap and technologically advanced, but simply what it was, the only tank, except for the T-60, which the USSR of the 42nd year could produce in significant quantities.
          Quote: Cannonball
          but with bradley and cougars, he is quite combat-ready, and NATO also has a lot of ancient scrap metal, which is quite capable of thirty-four.

          No, are you really trying to discuss the role of the T-34 on the battlefield of the 80s? Why do you hate Russians so much?
          Quote: Cannonball
          Yemen is, and where are the vaunted Tigers and Payers?

          They were handed over to museums or under the press, and not kept for 50 years, as it were, armed, giving them away to the smaller brothers.
          1. Cannonball
            Cannonball 5 June 2018 20: 11
            +1
            Keitel, who called the T-34 the best tank, wasn’t he talking about the T-34?

            The cost of the T-34 at the end of the war reached 130-150 thousand rubles, while the T-60 you mentioned, the "coffin for two" in 41-42, cost 72-75 thousand rubles. Place two T-60s and one T-34-85 ... side by side and feel the difference.

            If the media do not lie, then the "museum" T-34 = 85 not without success noted in the Donbass, if that.
            After all, they did not disdain.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 6 June 2018 08: 30
              -2
              Quote: Cannonball
              Keitel, who called the T-34 the best tank, wasn’t he talking about the T-34?

              I don’t recall Keitel talking on this subject, but if he did, then he was not talking about the T-34. And about why it was not he who was to blame for this or that fakap, but Speer or, there, Funk. And so the KV tank in reservation corresponded to the long-known Matilda, the T-34-76 is almost a complete analogue of Valentin KS.
              Isaev, by the way, was remembered here. It is quite convincing about this moment.
              Quote: Cannonball
              The cost of the T-34 at the end of the war reached 130-150 thousand rubles,

              But at the beginning of the war one engine cost so much. The tank of the end of the war is not the machine that was put into service in the 39th.

              Quote: Cannonball
              not without success noted in the Donbass, if that.

              Quote: Town Hall
              I’m afraid that the next post will be about ".... after 70 years, carefully backed off the pedestal and went straight into battle ..."

              Hmm, Town Hall, you were right. I didn’t think it would come to that.
              1. Cannonball
                Cannonball 6 June 2018 20: 01
                0
                I don’t remember Keitel talking on this subject
                I apologize, it was not Keitel who said this, but Field Marshal Ewald von Kleist.
              2. goose
                goose 21 June 2018 12: 31
                0
                KV-1C was equivalent in terms of booking to about Matilda, I have better mobility and armament on my head.
                The first HFs were better armored than Matilda, the latter - KV-85, KV-122 were better in everything, and they can not be compared with her. In terms of instrumentation, the KV-85 was probably almost the best WWII tank.
          2. goose
            goose 18 January 2019 09: 45
            0
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            You are well aware that just the T-34 with its body without right angles, a unique engine, a unique and curved chassis was not cheap and technological.

            In fact, only the B-2 engine was expensive - almost half the cost of the tank. Everything else is just inexpensive after optimization of welding processes. It was especially good that the towers were cast, and the whole building was assembled from a relatively thin rolled 40-45 mm, which was cheap to manufacture. If you replace the V-2 with the M-21, then the tank would be easier, cheaper, more reliable, it would be better launched in the winter, but ...
            The operational range and torque at low revs would suffer, which directly affected the propulsion. The problem was in KPP-4, which simply did not allow such a powerful engine to be realized, KPP-5 already revealed its potential in 1940, but for some reason it only went into production in 1942. Let me remind you that B2 was put on the BT-7M, where the share of its cost was generally space.
            Cast M4 hulls and towers were not cheap at all, for reference.
        2. 019
          019 18 January 2019 01: 52
          0
          Quote: Cannonball
          The opinion of our experts is really significant, but the recognition of the T-34 as the best direct and potential adversary is worth a lot. And you will not blame them for opportunism and bias.

          Just as you blame. Something was supposed to prevent them, the absolute geniuses, from getting so crazy about the USSR.
          Quote: Cannonball
          The T-34 was cheaper and more technologically advanced than any classmate on both sides of the front line.

          All. This is a death shot.
          But what about Pz.IV?
          But what about Sherman?
          But what about the Comet?
          On the contrary, the T-34 was the most expensive of classmates. That's literally everything.
          Quote: Cannonball
          This is its huge plus - the possibility of mass production.

          No no. And his technology was terrible.
          The most technologically advanced was Pz.IV. Although, hell knows, Americans have always been able to do everything cheaply. Maybe Sherman. With its molded case. But his M1 gun was definitely more expensive than the KwK40.
          Quote: Cannonball
          T-34 is not junk, but quite a normal tank.

          The most expensive and low-tech junk with a minimum set of consumer qualities. Everything about him was terrible and flawed. Starting from the engine and body and ending with guns.
          Quote: Cannonball
          Although there is a T-34 in Yemen, where are the vaunted Tigers and Payers?

          In museums. Where and T-34 place.
          1. goose
            goose 18 January 2019 11: 14
            0
            Quote: 019
            The most expensive and low-tech junk with a minimum set of consumer qualities. Starting from the engine and body and ending with guns.

            You are inadequate, the T-34 engine was in fact the best tank engine of the WWII, especially if you put it on the fuel balance of the USSR. High-speed, lightweight, powerful, direct injection, multi-valve, all this appeared on civilian diesel engines only in the 80s, after 40 years.
            The F-34 gun was a modern weapon, at the M-1 level and better than the first 75-mm German guns. There are relevant reports of both Germans and British, and Americans. Then you completely froze the blizzard. And if we talk about the D-5T, then its equivalent analogues, except for the English 17-pound, was not. 80% action against field fortifications and 20% against tanks are taken into account. But given its cost, it was also not an analogue, because could not be replicated in sufficient quantities.
            The gearbox was wretched until 1940, it was not the designer’s fault that they began to put the normal gearbox only in 1942.
            The optics are described here https://topwar.ru/18866-pribory-upravleniya-ognem-sovetskih-i-nemeckih-tankov-vtoroy-mirovoy-voyny-mify-i-realnost.html, will you dispute the conclusions?
            Why did automatic welding of the body and conveyor suddenly become low-tech? The whole world believes that we had the coolest technological cycle. Some factories produced almost 100% of spare parts on site and immediately assembled on a conveyor. As a result, after optimization of the processes, the prime cost fell by half. ALL historians have officially declared that there were no analogues in effectiveness to this phenomenon. The transition to the T-34M in 1941 with parts made of armored steel of 60 and 75 mm could be some problem. only 1 plant in the country could roll and cement them, i.e. Logistics appeared, complicating and increasing the cost of production.
    3. 019
      019 18 January 2019 02: 17
      -1
      Quote: Cannonball
      The only objective thing is that the T-34-76 / T-34-85 in terms of all the combat, technical, technological and economic characteristics was indeed the best tank of the Second World War

      This is bullshit.
      For starters, these weren't tanks at all. Since their performance characteristics for the term "tanks" were not drawn.
      It was a tower BTT of other classes. The last tank of this series was the T-34 with the L-11 (tank gun). But such tanks were discontinued in 1941. The next Soviet tank was the T-64.
      Quote: Cannonball
      One of the arguments in favor of this statement can be considered its longevity.

      This is just a confirmation of the poverty of their users.
      Quote: Cannonball
      and the T-34 is still armed and very dangerous.

      They were not very armed even in the times of WW2. And it’s not very dangerous. And now, even more so.
      1. goose
        goose 18 January 2019 11: 18
        0
        Quote: 019
        It was a tower BTT of other classes. The last tank of this series was the T-34 with the L-11 (tank gun).

        Where is this nonsense from? L-11 was practically not put on the T-34, there was only the F-34. L-11 was found only on the HF of the first series.
  44. Cannonball
    Cannonball 3 June 2018 23: 37
    +1
    YELLOWSTONE, and now where are these "Soviet and contemporary Western"?
    By mass, we can only talk about Russian, and some "foreign" models that have not gone beyond 50 tons of combat weight. But the NATO troops no longer fit into these limits, because their tanks are more for fear than for battle.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 5 June 2018 07: 42
      0
      they are transported more by road, bridges are better and motors are more powerful
      Israeli climate generally contributes
      1. Cannonball
        Cannonball 5 June 2018 20: 15
        0
        I already wrote about bridges in one of the posts. Bridges with a lifting capacity of 50-60 tons are not so many as it seems. Much more bridges of 15-30 tons.
        You can’t drive a lot with motor vehicles, especially near the war zone — you will lose both the tank and the trailer.
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE 6 June 2018 00: 05
          0
          the railway is even smaller, what then can be done with a T-72 tank weighing more than 30 tons?
          1. Cannonball
            Cannonball 6 June 2018 20: 09
            +1
            Entire tank battalions and brigades are quickly enough transferred by rail.

            T-72 on a pontoon bridge can cross or even along the bottom of the river, if the depth is up to 5 meters.

        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 6 June 2018 08: 08
          0
          Quote: Cannonball
          Much more bridges of 15-30 tons.

          These are the realities of the 30s. Since then, the bridges have noticeably grown, especially in Germany, which was considered a probable theater of operations at the time of the creation of tanks during the Cold War.
          1. Cannonball
            Cannonball 6 June 2018 20: 24
            +1
            In Germany, the vehicle weight limits apply:
            Two-axle truck - up to 18 t, three-axle - up to 26 t, four-axle - up to 32 t, tractor with six-axle semi-trailer - up to 40 t, container ship - up to 44 t.

            http://www.sgs-tl.com.ua/ru/articles/vesovye-i-ga
            baritnye-limitation.html
  45. blizart
    blizart 4 June 2018 10: 01
    0
    Who had problems in the last year with entering the VO? Or is it banned me? Shaw me?
  46. meandr51
    meandr51 4 June 2018 11: 49
    +5
    Vlad.by,
    Yes, the Soviet fought incorrectly. They defeated smart, beautiful Aryans in beautiful cars with poor primitive soviet equipment, and this is unfair. And this disgrace continues to this day ...
  47. aws4
    aws4 5 June 2018 00: 41
    +1
    meandr51,
    you don’t know what you are writing about .. 88 tigers had worse armor penetration than 75 panthers .. tiger gun 2 we don’t take into account this is a separate song there and the cartridge is different
  48. renics
    renics 5 June 2018 14: 42
    +3
    (In this case, there are cases when Tiger attacked a Soviet car from a distance of more than 1 km and pierced the lower frontal part, which led to the ignition of the fuel tanks.) And what kind of frontal armor was precisely in the opinion of the author that there were fuel tanks with diesel fuel. But in itself, diesel fuel does not burn, only the air mixture burns, and then under high pressure, but here it is talking about flooded in tanks. Nonsense in a word, the article was written not by a specialist in military affairs, but by an amateur.
    1. Albert1988
      Albert1988 6 June 2018 21: 35
      0
      Not to mention the fact that the tiger to get into the lower armor plate of the IS-2 was well oh how difficult, given the low silhouette of the IS-2.
  49. Albert1988
    Albert1988 6 June 2018 21: 32
    0
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Happy for you. Isaev differs from a specialist in that when it comes to something other than his topic, instead of “I don’t know,” he begins to carry a gag. Which translates it from historians to publicists, and sometimes propagandists.

    And where is his gag?
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    But since it is he who understands the Second World War quite well, he certainly does not have the data you provided.

    That is, in the history of the Second World War, is he exactly that specialist?
    Well, as for the data given - look carefully, and:
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    He writes that the majority of Panther’s combat losses are PT artillery on board the hull and turret.

    And the quote you quoted firstly refers to a specific moment in the Kursk battle, when the Red Army did not yet have the corresponding ammunition capable of effectively fighting panthers and tigers. The same SU / ISU-152 didn’t matter at all which part of the panther to get to, the ISU-122 also didn’t differ much from the “St. John's wort” in effectiveness when firing a pater, the SU-100 also drove pretty little cats.
    You yourself understood that the quote you quoted about Kursk refers to the first the mass use of panthers, when the cat was a real surprise for the Red Army, and most of the losses of the cats occurred at the end of the 44th - beginning of the 45th years.Albert1988,
    1. yehat
      yehat 13 June 2018 13: 05
      0
      in 43, near Kursk, the panthers suffered losses not even from the PT - about 70% of the crew were simply broken before joining the battle. No surprise came out.
  50. yehat
    yehat 13 June 2018 13: 03
    +2
    where do people get this nonsense about the best panther gun or the English QF 17 ???
    these are exclusively anti-tank guns. And such guns were hardly put at all on Soviet tanks at all - there were experiments with 57mm guns, but they were abandoned. It was considered important that the gun could effectively use HE shells.
    The T85-34 85mm gun was a very good gun, but unlike the Americans, who had better gunpowder and armor-piercing shells, as well as the ability to produce a lot of sub-caliber, their gun had better characteristics, but the guns themselves were very close in capabilities.
    However, the characteristics of the Soviet guns were enough to fight even with tigers.