What should be the perfect gun? Subjective opinion

165
In the comments under one of the articles proposed to describe the gun, which, in my opinion, would be perfect. Despite the fact that perfection simply can not be achieved, I will try to dream up on this topic, or rather compile the solutions that were used in individual models weapons, and which seemed to me the most successful. But at once it is worth making a reservation that my opinion is only the opinion of one person, maybe at some points I will be wrong, because an active discussion and suggestion of my options is welcome.

General concept



Usually, weapons are built on the basis of some kind of separate ammunition, in our case there is no specifics, which to some extent expands the space for the flight of fantasy. Nevertheless, in the article “Modern ammunition for a pistol and a submachine gun,” I outlined the way I see modern ammunition for the army and the police. Based on this, we can conclude that the weapon should be in at least two versions, under two different cartridges.

What should be the perfect gun? Subjective opinion


At the moment, with the spread of body armor, the army needs a cartridge with high armor-piercing properties of a bullet. In the article, I suggested using the experience of the Swedes, who developed a rather interesting ammunition for a submachine gun, as part of creating individual defense weapons for soldiers. In short, the bullet of a Swedish ammunition consists of an armor-piercing core wrapped in plastic, which makes it very light and therefore very fast, and the speed, as is known, has never interfered with the armor-piercing. If the idea is somewhat modified, in particular, to wrap an armor-piercing core in an aluminum shirt and make the shell plastic, then you can lose a little in armor-piercing, primarily due to a loss in speed, but you get other positive results. When a core gets into the armored plate, such a bullet will, in theory, be pierced through it, leaving the armored platinum and the plastic shell outside, and the aluminum shirt. While in contact with unprotected targets, such a bullet will remain intact, showing a higher stopping effect than when a thin armor-piercing core penetrates. Obviously, I do not take into account any nuances in this fantasy, otherwise a cartridge with such a bullet would have been created long ago, but the general idea is this.

For the police, on the contrary, high armor-piercing properties of the bullet of the cartridge will be harmful. Since the absolute majority of the targets for which law enforcement officers fire, are not protected by body armor, first and foremost it is necessary to put precisely high stopping power. That is, the cartridge should be with a heavy bullet of large caliber.

Since the conditions for the army and the police are mutually exclusive, respectively, we need two types of weapons, at least for two different ammunition. Why not make two different pistols? The answer is simple - banal for reasons of economy, and we are talking about an ideal gun, why do we need two ideal ones, when it is cheaper and easier to make one.

Examples of the use of two or more ammunition in almost identical designs weight. You can pay attention at least to the same Steyr pistols, described in the last article. The transition between ammunition with a different sleeve is carried out by replacing the casing-bolt, barrel, return spring and magazine, if required. For the transition between cartridges with the same sleeve, only the replacement of the barrel and return spring is required.

That is, if the ammunition for the army and the police will be created on the basis of a single cartridge case, then a pistol for the army and the police will be only a barrel and a return spring. This means that in the production of the same parts will be stamped, and this is anyway saving.

The civilian market and weapons for special forces remain unclosed. Both in the first and in the second case there is freedom of choice, and in a rather wide range. Should I try to make a weapon that would suit athletes from practical shooting at the base of the pistol for the army and police. Of course, it is, but it should be done without priority, so that it does not negatively affect the weapon. If we talk about special forces, then even within the framework of a single class of weapons, such as a pistol, it is very difficult to close all needs, which will vary depending on the task.

I will give the simplest example. In one case, there are no requirements for the sound of a shot; you need a simple self-loading pistol with ammunition, the bullet of which is most effective. In the second case, there are noise requirements, that is, the gun should be as quiet as possible, ideally non-autonomous, in order to minimize the noise when using the weapon. From this we can conclude that in some cases, the design of the gun suitable for the army and the police is not suitable. Of course, it is worth paying back attention to the requirements of specialists, but if the fulfillment of these requirements will harm the design of a police officer or a combined-arms pistol, then their implementation will have to be postponed to a distant box for implementation in other models.

You will not be nice to everyone, therefore you need to prioritize and decide in advance for whom exactly the weapon is designed.

Based on this, we can draw the following conclusions:
1) The pistol must be able to transfer at least between two ammunition, by replacing the minimum number of weapon parts.
2) The design of the gun should provide for the possibility of adaptation to the special requirements, if it does not harm the basic versions of the weapon.


Mass and dimensions of the gun

Repeatedly, in the comments to the articles, visitors pointed out that in peacetime only a paperweight needed a pistol in the army so that the paper would not be blown away by the wind. It is difficult to argue with such a statement, as well as the fact that in wartime the pistol is not in the first or even in the second roles. Despite this, not a single army in the world has yet renounced this class of weapon; we will not be pioneers in this matter either, but we will try to take into account the wishes of the consumer.



First of all, you need to pay attention to the size and weight of the weapon. Without any problems, you can now do something small and light, but then they will start complaining not about dimensions and weight, but about recoil when shooting and low accuracy. In general, complaints about the mass, in my opinion far-fetched. Even if the weapon weighs a kilogram, it is quite possible to get used to it after a couple of weeks of constant wear, the lack of this weight will rather cause discomfort than its presence. However, the “customer is always right.”



Once we are going to lighten the weapon, it would be quite logical to abandon the steel frame of the pistol, which is already considered an anachronism, but not everything is so simple. The territory of Russia includes a variety of climatic zones, that is, we need a weapon that would not feel the difference between -50 degrees Celsius and + 50, and ideally in a wider range. It should be borne in mind that the transition from the same -50 degrees to zero temperature can be very fast, because they usually shoot weapons, and this process is accompanied by heat generation. Of course, the frame of the pistol should be strong enough to withstand the process of firing and external influences. In addition to all this, it is also necessary to take into account the resistance to long-term exposure to ultraviolet, many manufacturers at one time quite sensitively put their foreheads about this problem. If all these requirements will be possible to implement in the polymer version, then just fine, but if not, then light alloys of metals will still remain to find a solution. The main task is to reduce weight without loss of strength and durability even in adverse conditions. If we talk in numbers, we will focus on 550-600 grams without cartridges, in order to reach a mass close to the mass of a Makarov pistol with a full magazine, but given that the capacity of the store will be greater.



As for the dimensions of the weapon ... The dimensions of the pistol completely depend on the length of the barrel of the weapon and the capacity of its store. Let's start with the length of the trunk. A longer pistol barrel is primarily a higher initial bullet speed and higher accuracy. Do you need high accuracy for an army pistol? Even when shooting in a shooting range, with a weapon that is quite good in its characteristics, not everyone can show at least some performance at a distance beyond 50-75 meters. The main goal is not to create an expensive high-precision sports pistol, but to say “workhorse”, which will surely work at real application distances, and these are usually very short distances, but we will give stock to all the usual 50 meters.

Back based on the experience and the result of labor of domestic and foreign designers, it can be concluded that such accuracy can provide weapons with a barrel length of about 100 millimeters. That is, we are talking about a gun in the dimensions of the same Makarov pistol.

But this, let's say, is the basic version of the weapon. Absolutely nothing prevents to make a larger model of a pistol with a more spacious store. So with an increase in the length of the barrel, the frame of the weapon can remain unchanged, along with the barrel only the cover-slide will grow. You can also increase the capacity of the store without changing the frame of the weapon; the handle can be lengthened by the store itself, in the lower part of which you can place a plastic part that makes the extended handle visually more attractive than just sticking a store. Although, in my opinion, the capacity in the 12-14 cartridges is more than enough, and such capacity can be organized slightly exceeding the dimensions of the handle of the same PM.

Draw conclusions.
3) The mass of the gun without cartridges must be in the area of ​​550-600 grams.
4) Weapons dimensions should be comparable to a Makarov pistol, with the barrel length should be about 100 millimeters.
5) The pistol magazine must have an 12-14 ammo capacity.
6) The design of the weapon should provide for the possibility of adaptation to a longer barrel and the use of stores of expanded capacity without changing the scope of the gun.


Ergonomics Pistol

Although the weight and dimensions of the weapon to some extent belong to ergonomics, we considered them separately. In this part of the article I will try to create a list of parts that would not be completely redundant in the gun and would make it more comfortable to use.



First you need to pay attention to the handle of the weapon. Despite the fact that we have widely applied the practice of measuring the average temperature in the hospital, to deny that people can not have different palm sizes, then the weapon must be easily adapted to the specific size of the hand arrow. In addition, it is impossible to deny the fact that we have a change of seasons and that handle, which lies comfortably in the bare hand, will not be so comfortable in the hand, on which a warm glove is pulled. It seems to be a trifle, but it is from such trifles that the general impression about the weapon is usually formed.

Foreign manufacturers quite often implement the "fit" of the weapon under the hand of the shooter with the help of interchangeable linings on the back side of the handle. As for me, this is a half measure, and if you make a fit, then by replacing the entire handle. That is, replaceable should be not just the lining on the back side, but also the side cheeks and the back side. This can be arranged if the handle overlays are U-shaped in section. On the one hand, this will entail additional costs, but on the other hand, the requirements to the plastic on the pistol grip are not the highest, so that such parts will be inexpensive. But the weapon will be more convenient for the end user.



The second point is the location of the weapons shop button. Despite the fact that many are accustomed to the latch of a Makarov pistol, it will have to be abandoned in favor of the possibility of using stores with expanded capacity. It remains only to determine exactly where the button will be located to extract the store. In my opinion, its most appropriate location is at the base of the safety bracket, which will eliminate accidental pressing and leave this element quite convenient for quick access. Well, it is important that this button was located on both sides of the gun, without having to disassemble or rearrange something.
As for the safety guard itself, its dimensions should be sufficient for the normal use of the weapon, all in the same gloves.

Slide delay lever. First of all, this element should be large enough so that it can be used all in the same gloves, at the same time it should not protrude significantly beyond the arms, that is, instead of a lever there should be a large button. And if it is duplicated on both sides of the weapon, it will be generally perfect. In addition, I would like to see a not quite standard implementation of the slide delay. So the slide delay should be turned off immediately after a new magazine was inserted into the weapon, without pressing the shutter delay button, this will slightly speed up the process of changing the magazine, seemingly a trifle, but a trifle is quite pleasant. It is quite natural to question the cartridge in the chamber after the new store is inserted. It is for this reason that the shutter delay button does not need to be abandoned, if you just need to insert the magazine into the weapon, without the possibility of its immediate use, you can first remove the bolt from the delay with the button, and then insert the new magazine, leaving the chamber empty.

Not the most unnecessary thing is the indicator of the presence of a cartridge in the chamber. This is usually done with the help of the ejector. It is a well-thought-out and well-proven solution, but if there is a light-accumulating insert on such an indicator, it will not get any worse. As well as if this indicator will be transferred to the back of the housing-bolt. In this case, the main thing is its presence and the clearness of its work, and not its location and implementation.

As for the controls safety devices. If you look at the latest models of weapons from different manufacturers, you will notice that they have a fuse switch. Recently, preference is given to so-called “automatic” fuses. Such a solution, of course, has a plus in the form of instant readiness of weapons for use, immediately after extraction, but the implementation of this outrage must be approached more carefully than it might seem at first glance. We will analyze this moment in more detail below, but for the time being we will only focus on the layout of the controls. Since the choice has fallen in favor of automatic fuses, we will not invent anything new, but leave everything in the form of the now common levers on the trigger and the time-tested key on the back of the handle, what these elements will do, let us analyze the design of the gun.

It would not be superfluous to organize the possibility of a smooth descent of the strike mechanism of the weapon. Conversely, the third question will be implemented as it is important that the control element of this procedure be equally convenient for left-handed and right-handed people and does not require any additional manipulations with the gun, except for one simple action.

Sights. Since the pistol is clearly not sporty, there are no special requirements for sighting devices. For my part, I can note that for faster aiming, the rear sight is subjectively convenient, the slot of which has a triangular or trapezoidal shape than a rectangular one. If the sights are marked with light-accumulating paint - great. If the form of such marking is not in the form of points, but in the form of horizontal lines - even better. If the sighting devices themselves can be replaced, then the civilian market will say a big thank you.



Not a bad idea would be to organize in arms and control the consumption of ammunition. The first thing that comes to mind is a small screen that shows the number of rounds. But, in my age, it is still too early for me to fall into insanity, because it is much easier, more reliable and cheaper to do everything a little differently. One solution may be tactile notification that cartridges in the store are coming to an end. For example, after there are, say, three rounds left in the store, a small part will act under the thumb of the holding hand for a couple of millimeters, shifted by the same store feeder. If such a detail is placed on the left and right sides of the gun and signals a close emptying of the store, without interfering with keeping the pistol normally, then everyone will be satisfied. Simple, reliable, cheap and effective.

Thus, we continue the list:
7) A pistol should be able to easily and cheaply adapt a weapon to a specific palm size.
8) Absolutely all elements of the weapon must be comfortable for both left-handed and right-handed.
9) Gun aiming devices must be designed with priority on fast aiming and use in low light conditions.
10) Store replacement procedure should be minimal.
11) The design of the gun should provide for the possibility of safe descent of the firing mechanism
12) The design of the gun must contain elements that clearly and clearly indicate the presence of a cartridge in the chamber, the position of the firing mechanism, which can be distinguished both in dim light and tactile.
13) The design of the pistol must have the ability to control the amount of ammunition in the process of firing.


Gun device

As already decided, the gun is not designed for athletes, it means you do not need to reinvent the wheel in pursuit of hundredths of the accuracy of fire. It is possible to take the basis for the automation system proposed by Browning, using the recoil energy in the short course of the weapon’s barrel, with the barrel bore locked when entering a projection above the chamber in the window for ejection of spent cartridges. How will the shift of the breech section of the trunk vertically be organized? The only question is reliability, that is, how easier and safer is it, so we do.



The only thing you should pay attention to is the location of the barrel. To ensure a more comfortable perception of recoil when firing, the axis of the trunk should be as low as possible. You can take into account the experience of Czech designers, in particular their work on the gun 7,5FK. In this gun, not only is the barrel low enough relative to the grip of the weapon, it also does not usually move in the process of working the weapon. In our usual designs, with the normal position of the housing-bolt, the axis of the barrel is parallel to the motion vector of the housing-bolt. When the housing-bolt moves back, the breech of the trunk decreases, deflecting the axis of the barrel. In a Czech pistol, with the normal position of the casing-bolt, the breech breech is raised, that is, the barrel axis is not parallel to the casing-bolt movement, parallel to the barrel axis and the casing-bolt movement vector when the casing-bolt moves back. As I understand it, this decision was made in order to reduce the speed of the casing-bolt rollback when firing due to the use of relatively powerful ammunition, as well as to ensure the lowest possible position of the barrel. If the decisions of Czech gunsmiths are justified and do not affect the reliability and durability of the structure, they can be used.



As for the firing mechanism of the weapon, it is possible to dwell on the striker, but not on its variant with a dovvod, which is now widespread, but on a double action mechanism. Like it or not, if it is necessary to make the first shot immediately after removing the weapon, the force of pressing the trigger will not be as critical as it is tried to be presented. But subsequent shots and shots with the preliminary preparation of weapons should not be affected by the tight turn of the trigger.

Separately, it should be noted the possibility of assembling the trigger mechanism as a single unit that could be completely removed from the weapon frame without its disassembly. Such a solution will give, first of all, space for the subsequent modernization of this node, as well as its changes in accordance with the requirements for the creation of highly specialized weapons. When repairing, replacing a single unit instead of individual worn parts gives a higher repair speed, plus the mechanism itself is installed completely new, without worn, but still retaining, elements.



Also worth mentioning in more detail safety devices. As mentioned above, the fuse switches can be completely abandoned under certain conditions. So, the key on the back of the handle should be soft enough not to create discomfort when holding the weapon, while in its normal position, it should not block the sear, the trigger or some other parts of the trigger mechanism. It should act directly on the part that causes the shot, in our case it is the drummer. In this case, the interaction of the key on the back side of the pistol grip with the drummer should not be based on friction or any other interaction, the reliability of which with the development of parts on the surface of the parts may decrease. This should be a reliable rigid locking, resistant to long-term operation. As for the trigger, the key on it, like in many other models of modern pistols, can block the trigger itself, but at the same time, the locking system of the same drummer must be implemented in the design of the trigger until the trigger is selected. completely. At the same time, the trigger lock of the firing pin should be independent of the firing pin lock by the key on the back side of the handle. As a result, we obtain a completely safe weapon, which will be such even with a cartridge in the chamber and at the same time such a gun will be ready for use immediately after removal.

From all this we get a few more points:
14) Automatic pistol should be built on the use of recoil energy in the short course of the barrel of the weapon, with the barrel bore locked when the barrel is engaged with the shutter.
15) The location of the gun barrel axis should be as low as possible to ensure a more comfortable perception of recoil.
16) The pistol trigger mechanism is shock, the trigger mechanism must be assembled in a separate, easily detachable unit.
17) Mechanisms protecting the weapon from an accidental shot should be reliable and resistant to wear, should firmly lock the drummer, and not block the sear.


Conclusion

In the end, first of all, it should be noted that the vision of the question of the ideal pistol is based only on my opinion, and I may be mistaken, and often mistaken, because an active discussion is only welcome. In my opinion, such a weapon design will make it possible to create weapons that can be easily adapted to various ammunition, suitable for use both in the army and the police with appropriate ammunition. In the design of the gun there is room for maneuver in order to assemble a more specialized weapon on the base model.

There may be a completely logical question why in this dream pistol there is no possibility of automatic fire. This question may arise in the first place among those who have not tried to shoot from the same MTA, as they say, "like an adult". At very short distances, the efficiency is really present and not at all small, but already on 10-15 meters it will be strange to talk about effective automatic fire, without using the butt. No, of course, there are unique people who can hold the RMB in each hand and at the same time shoot at the enemy, but take into account the indicative exoticism is clearly not worth it.



And finally, the most important point on which to finish this article. The weapon described above will never be massive and will never be accepted for service. There will be several reasons for this. Even if you save on all that you can, the design of such a gun will have a lot of small details, which in total with the overall savings will lead to a drop in the reliability of the weapon. If you take high-quality materials, carefully monitor production, the price tag for such a gun will be such that it will not only become unavailable for mass distribution, and even in the foreign civilian market not everyone can afford such a weapon. Of course, you can combine several functions in one detail, simplify the shape of individual elements as much as possible, and so on, but I don’t even want to think about what kind of work it is at the design stage. So the fantasies of a person who are just beginning to delve into the world of firearms should remain fantasies, and work on weapons should be carried out in accordance with the requirements of the immediate consumer, specialists who have been working on this issue for more than a year.

Special thanks to the visitor with a nickname Pishchak for the idea for the article.
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165 comments
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  1. +16
    22 May 2018 06: 02
    Regarding the fact that you need a bullet piercing the body armor .. Such bullets as a rule do not have a shock effect and in most cases do not disable the enemy immediately ... Another thing is when something soft is added to the armor ... Personal experience like a horse kicked a hoof. .. For several minutes was not here ...
    1. +10
      22 May 2018 06: 25
      I will say this, even the universally accepted weak 9х18 has never poked a finger, as they often say. Well, on an unprotected body, let someone else puts experiments)
      1. +7
        22 May 2018 09: 07
        Even a .22LR bullet is enough to stop an attacker when hit in the stomach or chest. Amers, by the way, are popular revolvers for such a cartridge for self-defense, such as Ruger LCR, since they have almost no recoil, and more rounds fit into the drum. And the Yankees have never been known for their love of weak ammunition. So the power of the cartridge 9 * 18 is more than enough.
        1. +7
          22 May 2018 09: 55
          Nevertheless, they consider 38 in a hurry, close in characteristics to 9 * 18 as a weak cartridge for the police, for example, 22LR will not stop an attacker with adrenaline in the blood, drunk, under drugs
          1. +3
            22 May 2018 10: 01
            With internal bleeding or a punctured lung, intestines, or heart, not a single narik, even if he is stoned at least a hundred times, pricked and insensitive to pain, can not run a couple of steps.
            1. +4
              22 May 2018 10: 18
              Only this will be enough to put a couple of bullets or a knife in you - several 9x19 did not stop the narik under heroin, and he still waved with an ax, he stopped only a shot in the head
            2. +6
              22 May 2018 11: 02
              You are mistaken, with nervous excitement, the effects of alcohol, drugs, even large wounds do not affect behavior, and such a person stops only with obvious beginning organ dysfunction, but after many minutes ... And 5,6 mm., If the main organs are not affected can get a dozen wounds. There is a known case of a policeman who detained a criminal armed with a small gun, having received 8 wounds. He stops a powerful bullet of a large caliber, preferably 0,45 ", therefore this cartridge is loved and kept in service. And it is desirable for our aircraft to have an 11, 43 mm cartridge so that one hit is enough, with an aiming of more than 50 meters, it’s necessary to aim accurately and for a long time from any pistol, and a pistol for another, to quickly and reliably hit a close target. Therefore, for the military, reinforced ammunition 11, 43 mm is just that ... According to the design of the pistols, why they were fixated on the layout with the barrel at the top of the handle, our designers created a sports weapon with a barrel at the bottom of the handle, which showed many advantages, but were not accepted for refereeing So military weapons to defeat, and if more efficiently, so the development and adoption ... The police have completely different criteria for weapons and save here it doesn’t have to, or it will be, as with PM, good for the police, weak for the military, and Rook and others for the police are powerful and heavy ....
              1. +1
                22 May 2018 11: 22
                Well, 45 for this was created - according to the official and generally accepted infa, the Americans wanted to have an automatic pistol equal to the stopping action of the 44 revolver. Since the standard 38 turned out to be weak against drug-injected rebels / terrorists in the Philippines., And the 44th bulky has 5 rounds and load the revolver for a long time (and this is with the folding drum)
              2. +3
                22 May 2018 13: 12
                Tales. Did you shoot people with weapons? I’ll tell you that 9 * 19 brings them down tightly, 11,43 is considered excessively powerful, and whoever carries them with us, we have the same originals that didn’t smell gunpowder and decided to eat.
                1. 0
                  22 May 2018 20: 12
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  Tales. Did you shoot people with weapons? I’ll tell you that 9 * 19 brings them down tightly, 11,43 is considered excessively powerful, and whoever carries them with us, we have the same originals that didn’t smell gunpowder and decided to eat.


                  I agree with you 100.
                  one who thinks that getting .22 is nonsense, let him raise his hand.
                  ps, most often already a determined look and a gun in his hands knocks dope out of his opponent’s head. but about psychos, it’s not just against them that with weapons that without
                  1. +2
                    23 May 2018 11: 17
                    Damn, and this is written by a man from Israel. Of course, getting a 22LR is not a trifle at all, but next to some kind of tahany-merkazit, it will be able to give you a knife in the liver, even if you manage to shoot. I doubt that you served in Krav
                    1. 0
                      23 May 2018 12: 54
                      Quote: Kibb
                      I doubt that you served in Krav

                      served
                      1. 0
                        23 May 2018 13: 12
                        Where? can in PM
                2. +2
                  23 May 2018 11: 06
                  Not always. I can agree that 9x19 is optimal in terms of the ratio of characteristics, but it’s far from always falling - I’ll repeat that I shot at the barmale under dope
                  1. 0
                    16 June 2018 17: 50
                    Quote: Kibb
                    shot at "barmaley" under dope

                    Shoot? .. Or hit? ..
                    And then, as in the movie:
                    "- Did you shoot yourself?"
                    _ But what, everything, to the last cartridge ... That's just all by ... "
            3. +10
              22 May 2018 14: 31
              This is completely wrong. We recall Sergeant Timothy Gremmins, or rather his only known shootout that completely refutes such reports

              He had a shootout with the bandit who received, I quote

              Forensic experts later noted that the criminal ended up with 14 holes. Of these, 6 are fatal. No traces of alcohol or drugs were found.
              His heart, both lungs, diaphragm and right kidney were broken. He was already a corpse ... "any minute."


              And even this did not stop the bandit. He continued to actively shoot back and was reassured only by hitting his head. "Calmed" instead of "calm" for a reason, he did not die right away and managed to survive until the arrival of doctors and even a blood transfusion. Not a drug addict, without even a trace of “substances” in the blood. And while the bandit was dying from six mortal wounds, he only miraculously did not kill the sergeant.

              The sergeant had only 4 cartridges out of the 47 that he had in the gun. These 47 were ... not even 9x19, but a .45 ACP. And after that you will talk about some .22LR? Supposedly

              Even a .22LR bullet is enough to stop an attacker when hit in the stomach or chest


              Well, as for the .22LR, I heard exactly the opposite from Mikhail from Sunset Edge and other sources. .22LR supposedly does not have a stopping effect to such an extent that if a person is fatally wounded for another 5-15 minutes, he can not only act actively, but feel completely nothing and refuse help. The wound with this cartridge is allegedly not felt at all. I can’t say whether it’s true or not, Mikhail may be a respected person, but I personally can’t vouch for his words.
              1. +2
                22 May 2018 21: 01
                Quote: rait
                This is completely wrong. We recall Sergeant Timothy Gremmins, or rather his only known shootout that completely refutes such reports

                Quote: rait
                Forensic experts later noted that the criminal ended up with 14 holes. Of these, 6 are fatal. No traces of alcohol or drugs were found.
                His heart, both lungs, diaphragm and right kidney were broken.


                Well, just a cyborg! smile this happens, on the adrenaline a lot of things happen to people, but this is not a rule but an exception.

                this is how it usually ends, without romance
                1. +3
                  23 May 2018 07: 27
                  Of course, this is not the rule, but it shows the real variability of the reaction of the human body to bullet wounds. And this must be taken into account when developing police weapons. Well, it is worth noting that a sergeant to die from an exception would be just as insulting as to die in a shootout with no exception;)
                  1. +1
                    23 May 2018 12: 24
                    Adrenaline is absolutely correct, and there are many such cases !!! But 45 is really too much for a modern pistol, so they went and are still searching - for example, the 40SW which did not become especially widespread, but in the USA there are many
                    1. +3
                      23 May 2018 14: 35
                      So yes, there are many cases when a criminal is not reassured by one 9x19. Therefore, police in the United States are taught to continue to shoot until the suspect falls without moving.

                      But the case I have cited is precisely the exception that, however, does not cancel the fact that 9x19 is considered to be the minimum for human use. And even he does not guarantee neutralization from one hit.

                      because they went and are still searching - for example, 40SW which didn’t become especially widespread, but in the USA there are many


                      With .40S & W, the story is interesting. At first, they switched to it en masse from 9x19, and after not less massively not so long ago they switched from it back to 9x19. The FBI explained this by the fact that the improved design of the bullet used in the 9x19 led to no significant difference in stopping action and wounds between the two cartridges, despite the fact that the .40 had a greater recoil and remained, as it was placed less in the magazine, and so on.
                    2. 0
                      9 June 2018 15: 01
                      Quote: Kibb
                      But 45 is really too much for a modern pistol, so they went and are still searching - for example, the 40SW which did not become especially widespread, but in the USA there are many

                      HOORAY!!!! There are still people besides me who also believe that for the ARMY (not for self-defense) 11,43x23 mm is a lot, and 9x19 mm is small.
                      My personal opinion is that the .40 S&W (10x22 mm) is the best. And from the non-existent 9x23 mm (.38 Super and .38 ACP are not considered), which uses a "classic" bullet from 9x19 weighing 7 grams, but an increased volume of gunpowder.
                      1. 0
                        11 August 2018 17: 15
                        .45 ACP does not work well through the barrier, and the cops need to shoot through ... at least the car door.

                        .45 ACP is heavy. 100 rounds weigh more than 2 kg. Come on! And 9mm weigh 1 kg the same 100 rounds. Or they can be taken away 200.
                        The .45 ACP cartridge must also be fired twice at the target, as is customary to shoot 9 mm.
                        There are 1911 rounds in the 8 store, two rounds per carcass - and the store needs to be changed.
                        The same Glock has 17 - 17/19 rounds - this is 9 carcasses against 4 in 1911.
                        Getting out of the 9mm middle arrow is easier.

                        And, probably, the main thing is that a 9mm cartridge costs half the price of a .45 ACP cartridge

                        Capitalism!
                2. +2
                  23 May 2018 11: 54
                  This is not an exception - this is the rule for someone who wants to survive, see how many people shot and from which: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC0nMykInwc
                  If the 22LR is so good (everyone gets out of it, let's take the MC into service, everyone will get it), if 38 and 9x18 are enough, then why is the most massive army caliber in the world 9x19, and the Russian Federation switched to it?
                3. 0
                  31 July 2018 21: 00
                  And yet, at least five bullets fell into him (the first policeman fired three second two shots), and only after he fell off - five and with a caliber sufficient, for they shot to kill an armed man from close range .....
              2. +3
                23 May 2018 04: 42
                The fowl on the kosach is rather weak. I myself saw how 8 times a goose got hit by a melkan and he ran like a saiga .. So it's game and she doesn’t shoot with an answer.
            4. +3
              22 May 2018 17: 42
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              With internal bleeding or a punctured lung, intestines, or heart, not a single narik, even if he is stoned at least a hundred times, pricked and insensitive to pain, can not run a couple of steps.

              Do you know where in the American army 0.45 caliber came from and colt 911? The Filipinos, they say, helped) They just ran into drugs to the US military)))
            5. +1
              23 May 2018 12: 08
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              With internal bleeding or a punctured lung, intestines, or heart, not a single narik, even if he is stoned at least a hundred times, pricked and insensitive to pain, can not run a couple of steps.

              Suggest with a short trunk under .22LR to go for a deer? Maybe even a boar? And what, breaks the skin, the liver is full of holes. 70 kg deer according to your words should fall in a couple of steps.
              1. +1
                23 May 2018 12: 19
                And he falls. The same Nagan, by the way, when taking into service, according to the requirements of the military, had to stop the horse from 50 steps. And he stopped.
                1. +3
                  23 May 2018 16: 23
                  Did the Nagan stop the horse? 270j. How can this stop a horse?
                  1. +2
                    23 May 2018 22: 14
                    One of the demands made by the Commission on a new revolver to replace the outdated Smith-e-Wesson was the requirement that a new revolver stop a galloping horse.
                    1. 0
                      23 May 2018 22: 35
                      And what can stop it?
                      1. 0
                        23 May 2018 23: 05
                        Of course! Otherwise, Nagan would not have been adopted.
                2. +3
                  24 May 2018 10: 52
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  And he falls.

                  After a few hours and many kilometers from the shooter, if you still manage to shoot the liver. And so the bullet is likely to get stuck in the meat or flatten on the bone.
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  The same Nagan, by the way, when taking into service, according to the requirements of the military, had to stop the horse from 50 steps. And he stopped.

                  Firstly. The Naganovsky cartridge is much more complete and incomparable with the .22LR.
                  Secondly. Then the requirements were different. It was understood that a horse could be dropped from a nagan if you got to the place. Shoot the skull in the right place, kill the ridge or sacrum. And from a weaker pistol, for example 6,35 × 15, - no. By modern standards, even a much more powerful 5,45x39 cartridge does not have a sufficient stopping effect on a horse.
                  The popularity of weapons under .22LR is justified by completely different reasons - a penny cost and low maintenance. As for self-defense, such a weapon is better than a knife, but much worse than a full-fledged gunshot.
                  1. 0
                    9 June 2018 15: 24
                    Quote: brn521
                    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                    The same Nagan, by the way, when taking into service, according to the requirements of the military, had to stop the horse from 50 steps. And he stopped.

                    But there is no information about conducting tests on horses, but the fact that the Americans checked their .45 on cows and pigs is known for certain.
                    1. +6
                      25 June 2018 18: 20
                      And these people blamed the USSR for sadism, when Belka and Strelka flew into space ...
                3. +1
                  11 August 2018 17: 27
                  Actually ... Nagan did not stop the horse, obviously the bribe-takers of that time obviously signed a test report.

                  But he worked against a cavalryman with a saber. Unlike the "dead hand" arrow, the "dead hand" of the grunt is not so likely.

                  He who received the bullet from Nagan could hardly chop after that. Out of order.

                  In fairness, these are today's cartridges for Nagan charge easier. And then they poured gunpowder Joule at 300-350.
          2. +1
            24 May 2018 21: 02
            Drunk, under drugs, and even in body armor.
            I always do this: when I’m going to get drunk, I don’t forget about body armor.
            1. 0
              24 May 2018 21: 20
              I did not say anything about body armor, this is a completely different topic
              1. 0
                9 June 2018 15: 25
                Quote: Kibb
                I did not say anything about body armor, this is a completely different topic

                and he is in life in a different topic ...
          3. 0
            11 August 2018 17: 33
            .38 Special will be stronger than PM for several reasons:

            The barrel of a police revolver is 4-6 inches and this is a significant increase in energy relative to PM (+ 30m / s per inch of barrel).

            The 38th bullet is almost twice as heavy as the PM bullet at the same energy.

            The bullet of the 38th can be expansive, and the bullet of the Soviet PM cartridge is only whole-shell with a steel core.
      2. +1
        31 May 2018 21: 09
        hi Dear Mark, as promised, I am writing to you my thoughts on the Article and the topic raised.
        I read your Article several times right after it was published on the VO website in order to better understand the essence (for further reflection) and once again now in order to more synchronize with your considerations.
        I'll start with the "jamb" (IMHO winked ):
        “First of all, you need to pay attention to the dimensions and weight of the weapon. Without any problems you can now do something small and light, but then they will start complaining not about the size and weight, but about the recoil when shooting and low accuracy. In general, complaints to the mass, in my opinion far-fetched. EVEN IF WEAPONS WEIGHT KILOGRAMS, IT CAN BE FULLY USED FOR A PAIR OF WEEKS of constant wearing, discomfort would rather be caused by the absence of this weight than its presence. Nevertheless, "the client is always right." "
        At first, I was shocked by these words of yours, how vividly they characterize the "distance" of the Author. Articles from the stated topic and sound like mockery winked It’s good that I didn’t read them right away when I wrote my first comment smile ... if I don’t fall under the hot hand, then I’m quick-witted and I feel ashamed for what was said in a rush!
        Weight, as well as dimensions, play a special role in personal weapons, and the lower the weight, to reasonable limits, the better! It happens that each gram of the weight of the weapon and equipment "breaks the back of a camel" - ten times you think "take it, don’t take it" and don’t take something, albeit necessary, but "weighing" Yes , and you say get used to ?! smile
        Always, as a constructor, imagine, if possible, in all the smallest details, "get into the shoes of users" weapons (and any products), do not treat them so lightly!
        The best cartridge for an army pistol and a submachine gun I consider a 9x19 mm pair, balanced in terms of its weight and size, stopping the bullet (even the whole shell) action is good, it is widespread and you can easily replenish your ammunition due to trophies, based on it and more and more cartridge options are created for various tasks!
        The dimensions of an army pistol under the cartridge of Steam, with a magazine capacity of up to 10 rounds (a gun is a weapon of one hand, not an ammunition depot! Do not forget about this) and an optimal barrel length of 120 mm, with a competent design approach, will not exceed the dimensions of the TT pistol and there will still be backup sinuses for the accumulation and utilization of dirt and powder deposits getting inside, so as not to interfere with the reliable operation of the mechanism!
        Modular trigger system of double action, trigger type, with an open trigger. No automatic fuses, especially on the back of the handle (in no case!) And the trigger, trigger pull (no "trips when fully pressed"!)!
        Only two-position (when setting for protection, the firing pin, trigger rod, shutter-casing are blocked and the trigger is pulled from the cocking platoon to release the mainspring) manual fuse on the shutter! By the type of PSM used (“characteristic” thumb snatching with the trigger pulled when firing, due to the thicker shutter thickness than the “ultra-thin” PSM, it will not occur), with levers on both sides of the shutter-allowing shutter with the fuse, with the same movement of the hand, cock the trigger along the way!
        The dimensions of the handle and the back of the shutter-casing should allow most shooters to effortlessly do all the manipulations with the trigger, trigger, two-way LEVERS of the slide delay, fuse and magazine lock with the fingers of one hand holding the gun!
        A magazine with a two-cartridge exit, all-metal, with wide side windows in which corrugated “pipettes” are available on both sides of the feeder for finger grip, convenient and quick equipment (and discharging, which is also important for long-term storage of the gun and its cleaning) with cartridges . The entrance mouth of the store’s shaft in the handle should be widened and rounded around its perimeter for better access to it by the inserted store!
        An army pistol should not have any automatic shutter release from the shutter lag when reloading the store — this, as the practice of using the first PM with such a function has shown, only leads to random shots and, as a whole, complicates the mechanism and reduces its reliability!
        An indicator of the presence of a cartridge in the chamber is an ejector that protrudes slightly above the shutter surface. A shot counter is not needed, since many shooters during regular training quickly learn to “automatically” count the number of shots, while for neophytes there is a “tactical reload” fellow !
        Sights should be as small as possible in size, but to ensure their adjustment and reliable fixation vertically and horizontally when shooting! The slit of the rear sight is rectangular or semicircular, the profile of the front sight visible into the slot of the rear sight is rectangular or slightly trapezoidal upward, so that the target can be seen at a long range. Between the whole and the front sight, on the upper part of the shutter-casing, there must be a flat antiglare surface with a width of 3–4 times the front sight thickness. For night shooting on the rear sight and front sight, clearly visible (dimly lit in the dark) marks must be applied!
        An army pistol should be BEAUTIFUL (but laconic in style, without unnecessary decoration “a la zonovsky consumer goods”!), Flat and streamlined, rounded like a TT, without any “hooks”, “picatinous”, “reloading” corrugations on the front of the shutter - the casing, its contours to the maximum should be formed by flat faces and radius curves, but the handle and controls should correspond to the ergonomics of the hands of most users.
        (1 part. To be continued)
        1. +1
          9 June 2018 15: 48
          Quote: pishchak
          "First of all, you need to pay attention to the dimensions and weight of the weapon. ... ... EVEN IF THE WEAPON WEIGHS KILLS, IT CAN BE FULLY ADDED TO FOR A PAIR OF WEEKS of constant wearing, discomfort will most likely be caused by the absence of this weight than its presence ... . "
          At first I was completely shocked by these words of yours, how vividly they characterize the "farawayness" of the Author Articles from the stated topic and sound like mockery ,
          Weight, as well as dimensions, play a special role in personal weapons, and the lower the weight, to reasonable limits, the better! It happens that each gram of the weight of the weapon and equipment “breaks the back of a camel” - ten times you think “take it, don’t take it” and don’t take something, albeit necessary, but weighing, and you say get used to it ?!

          He only held the pistol in the dash in his hands, and that’s why such knowledge ... Mark hadn’t had to drag the gun for days on end, and therefore does not know what it is. Personally, I took care (worked as a security guard) through the shift for 25 hours, or PM or IZH-81 (I would have to read an article about this d. That theorists write) not to let go. It is good that in the winter they allowed an axillary (operational holster of hidden wearing is for those who like to dig into the terms) to wear a holster, and in the summer already at night did not know (and not only me ...) how to turn the holster and where to attach it. And no one at the company for 2 years (then at another object was without a gun) did not develop a traction to constantly carry a gun on his belt. And this is a practice, not a philosophizing as the author of the article.
          1. +1
            16 June 2018 11: 18
            I will not argue, wearing a belt holster with a weapon was not necessary for a long time. But instead of it, for five years I have been carrying a pouch on my belt, in which usually lie: Battery (20 Ah) for recharging the mobile, the mobile itself, wallet, keys, cigarettes, cigarette lighter, small penknife. In addition, from time to time, there is a tablet, from a working pliers, a multimeter, a tape measure, a small set of screwdrivers. In the minimum configuration, this weight weighs about a kilogram of 1,1, at the maximum a little less than 3. For all the time so accustomed to this pouch that without it is not that not comfortable, but as if something is missing. request
            1. 0
              24 June 2018 16: 30
              Mark, you know, at about the same time, I also dragged my belt bag and loaded it up to two kilograms (I ride a motorcycle. Now I carry all the heavy and heavy bags in my backpack, and in my bag I have only phone documents, wallet and key seven hundred), but here as it turned out it was easier to drag. Firstly, you can twist it yourself as you like, it is inconvenient on the right side — it has been moved to the left or even to the back ... Secondly, the mass of the gun is concentrated on a narrower section of the belt, which means it is worse distributed over the belt. Yes, and wearing without removing the day and not the day also matters. But the officers, on duty, carry a gun constantly. Yes, if you put on a sword belt or PS and move the holster to your stomach (prohibited by the charter) it will be much easier right away, but far from all parts of them are allowed to be worn by a company duty officer or a car garage. So weight means a lot.
              1. +2
                25 June 2018 18: 21
                It needs to be compared, but I have no such possibility. smile So I will not argue)
  2. +9
    22 May 2018 06: 37
    An interesting article, and largely agree with the author.
    But personally, it seems to me that the requirements of the army and the police and civilian market differ seriously enough to have different pistols. This primarily includes the requirements for the cartridge used. If for civilian / police models the requirement is first of all to fill up, possibly without causing fatal injuries, then for army models the second is necessary.
    In this respect, vard rights. Namely, without even breaking through the BZ, the bullet will disconnect the recipient for a certain time, sufficient to “tie him up”, in the army, however, he needs to be distracted by himself for a long time and not start shooting in the back, and this is where the core is needed ...
    The pistol doesn’t need automatic fire, it's not that weapon ...
    The size of the weapon may play a role, in the police / civilian, given the short, mainly firing range. But this is easily solved within the same design.
    But, of course, unification in detail should be welcomed.
    Probably, creating an “absolute” gun is unrealistic, although there are “platforms”, and they wrote about this recently.
    It's my personal opinion.
    1. +2
      22 May 2018 13: 38
      Quote: alex-cn
      But personally, it seems to me that the requirements of the army and the police and civilian market differ seriously enough to have different pistols.

      That’s why it’s not worth making a pistol under one cartridge and universal-interchangeable. Not those who do not like it. The only option is to make two very different pistols under two different cartridges. In addition, the opinion of the author is the opinion of the athlete “tactics” or “stand-up”. Those. a person who spends on a shooting range "24 hours 7 days a week." And aims at the result. For the military and police, a gun is a tool that, for the most part, hangs on your hips and is needed once, two times a year. Pass the test. Therefore, light weight, reliability and speed of production for firing come to the fore here.
      Why two rounds? - everything is very simple! - Too different pistols for military and police.
      The police need a compact, light pistol with limited penetration and good stopping power, designed for quick firing, distances of up to 50 meters and the ability to adapt to hidden wear.
      PM is almost an ideal option. The only step for improvement here is the transition to the partial use of composite materials in construction in order to facilitate it. And the only competitor (addition !?) can be a self-cocking revolver under the same cartridge.
      Now back to the "poor military." Everything is complicated there. Because the military, in fact, needs "as many as two" pistols. One in parallel, in a kit for a form, etc. (let’s say this: “for staff needs”) And one for arming a belligerent “not infantry”. And, if the “police” option is quite suitable as the first, then the second is a separate “song”. As a matter of fact, the second one is no longer needed a gun, but a submachine gun in the dimensions of a pistol, but close in capabilities to an assault rifle. An attempt to make both pistols under the same “police” cartridge (remember the beloved APS) successfully failed. In the same Afghanistan, army pilots tried to actively rearm on the TT, which, thanks to the greater speed of the bullet, provided somewhat better accuracy and range.
      Thus, if we want to have a "letter as a weapon for auxiliary services and crews of military equipment" we need a second cartridge. Personally, it seems to me that it should be something like 5,45x24 with energy and ballistics close to the corresponding indicators of 5,45x39. - But this is a personal IMHO.
      Accordingly, a pistol under such a cartridge should have a longer barrel than that of a “policeman” and be designed for real battle ranges of up to 200-300 meters. At the same time, it should have a weight within kilograms, the ammunition of at least 16 rounds, be convenient for conducting aimed fire from a prone position. The automatic fire function, although it seems desirable, but not mandatory.
      1. +1
        22 May 2018 14: 41
        5,45-5,6, probably, is still not enough for the army ... although now it is melee and rare, but for shooting in a landfill it is necessary that an “iron” of at least 9 mm fly into the enemy.
        1. 0
          22 May 2018 15: 12
          Quote: alex-cn
          .Although now melee and rarity, but for shooting in a landfill it is necessary that at least 9 mm of "iron" fly into the enemy.

          That's why I say that the army team needs two pistols. As an auxiliary weapon, for the “landfill” - pm or self-cocking revolver. But in the event that a tanker or helicopter pilot who accidentally and suddenly turned into infantry needed something like that, you could get 200 meters of the adversary.
        2. +3
          23 May 2018 05: 06
          7.62 x25 to compress the sleeve to 5.45? the idea is not bad. But in my opinion TT cartridge can still be modified. A good cartridge, after all, is for the military. When with TT there is practice (the descent is hard there). Because of this, the gun leads away, despite the longitudinal sliding of the trigger, you can just do wonders. With “Makar” this will not work.
          1. 0
            23 May 2018 08: 09
            Quote: tracer
            7.62 x25 to compress the sleeve to 5.45? the idea is not bad. But in my opinion TT cartridge can still be modified.

            It is possible and possible to modify the standard TT cartridge. But, the bourgeoisie went the way of reducing the caliber. Yes, they paid in part for the stopping action (although not so much), but the bullet speeds increased to about 700-800 m / s, and the ballistics approached the intermediate cartridge 7.62x39. Here on the website there is an article on such ammunition "PDW Ammunition" dated July 5, 2016.
            1. +3
              23 May 2018 13: 54
              So am I about that. The downward trend in modern pistol ammunition has been redefined. due to almost rifle bullet speeds. The persistence of the trajectory, the stopping effect due to water hammer and armor penetration are the main advantages of the new cartridges. But that is not all. Increased store capacity, accuracy and accuracy of fire. It is necessary to modify 7,62 / 25 definitely ..
              1. 0
                23 May 2018 18: 48
                Quote: tracer
                Increased store capacity, accuracy and accuracy of fire. It is necessary to refine 7,62 / 25 definitely.

                Totally agree with you. And a pistol under this cartridge, capable of firing at a range of 150-200 m, is very necessary in the army.
            2. 0
              9 June 2018 16: 23
              Quote: tchoni
              It is possible and possible to modify the standard TT cartridge. But, the bourgeoisie went the way of reducing the caliber. Yes, they paid in part for the stopping action (although not so much), but the bullet speeds increased to about 700-800 m / s, and the ballistics approached the intermediate cartridge 7.62x39. Here on the website there is an article on such ammunition "PDW Ammunition" dated July 5, 2016.

              1. This does not say that they are on the right track. Even the Americans admitted that 5,56 is too little and they need to increase the caliber, but they don’t give money ... Less than 6.5 should be done without any crap.
              2. Using a TT sleeve as a base for PP is not an option due to the fact that in the first case it has a small wall thickness and the sleeve will simply tear when using modern gunpowder, but there are also second and third ... Here, a sleeve from 5,45 is more suitable , 39x28 which is shortened to 30-6,5 mm and the use of a bullet of caliber XNUMX mm and shorter than an automatic if you need high speed and a maximum range of a direct shot.
              2 Tracer, there is nothing to refine there ... and if you move away from .22 calibers, then you need to slip through and 7,62. According to the results of two world wars, the result was obtained that an increase in caliber to 8,0 mm and above leads to a sharp increase in efficiency. In particular, the healing period of wounds increases ...
              1. 0
                11 August 2018 17: 46
                In addition to the geometric dimensions of the CT sleeve, there is such a thing as the maximum allowable pressure in the barrel.

                If you put a small-caliber light bullet in the original TT-sleeve, to disperse it up to 700+ m / s pour heavy gunpowder, then the pressure in the barrel can increase and inflate-break the sleeves.

                That is, the idea of ​​re-calibrating the stockpiles of TT-cartridges at the factory for hot small-caliber cartridges - most likely will not work. That is, the PDW cartridge must be re-created from scratch. It makes no sense to make a TT-sleeve with thicker walls.

                And yet ... the survivability of the barrel with a high-speed small-caliber bullet on fast gunpowder will not be big.
          2. +2
            24 May 2018 11: 02
            Quote: tracer
            When with TT there is practice (the descent is hard there).

            During the course of practice, you had no mention at all if the descent was 1,5-2 kg. is heavy. Here is another proof of "superprofessionalism" ... How much can you already make a sound?

            Quote: tracer
            Because of this, the pistol leads to the side despite the longitudinal sliding of the trigger,

            The comment from the Hansa about the TT Leader is simply clean licked.
            1. 0
              28 May 2018 04: 47
              Go through the forest. Special room. I shoot much more often than you shoot on TV. And remember, this is a very difficult descent. And from your writings I saw that not only shooting but even understanding isn’t readable. I haven’t written on your Hansea for a long time now because of such room “geniuses” like you. He imagines himself a genius? Mom told you? So you can “lick” yourself and not only on the “Hansa”. This is the only thing left for you.
              1. 0
                29 May 2018 06: 57
                Quote: tracer
                Go through the forest. Special room.

                Aw, the "Canadian" was offended ....
                Quote: tracer
                I shoot much more often
                And the insult is done, for surely shooting at you occurs only after eating legumes.
                Quote: tracer
                And from your writings I saw

                Dear, you and I did not drink to the Brudershaft so that you would. And from my writings, you have never been able to refute anything.
                Quote: tracer
                I do not write on your hansa
                She's not mine, it's you who regularly copy and paste photos and comments from there.
                Quote: tracer
                here because of such indoor "geniuses" like you.

                These "room geniuses" saw all your awkward pearls and stupidly touched you.
                For they are geniuses, not couch fighters who don’t even know where to reform the part in which he allegedly served.
                Quote: tracer
                He imagines himself a genius?

                Surround yourself, "respected"! Where am I to your brilliant "Canadian" mind. Alas, we only experience, reality forces.
                Quote: tracer
                This is the only thing left for you.

                I can only poke you, like a kitten in a sled, into your jambs. So good luck in the field of lies within the "Canadian" borders.
                1. 0
                  1 June 2018 17: 08
                  I love deer like you. The hunt is always open for them ... And by the way, I have not been drinking it for 20 years .. So, "do not dream with me." Young self-confidence is good when going to girls in a hostel. But when talking about weapons .... This is clearly not your brother ..
                  1. +1
                    4 June 2018 05: 48
                    Quote: tracer
                    And by the way, I do not drink 20 years ..

                    Well, yes, you don’t drink that you don’t remember how old your son is. For example, in chronological order:



                    And this is dementia or sclerosis.
                    Quote: tracer
                    Young self-confidence is good
                    Judging by your vocabulary,
                    Quote: tracer
                    This is clearly not your brother
                    you do not pull the year of birth 1970, maximum 1985, and then with a stretch.
                    1. 0
                      9 June 2018 16: 30
                      Quote: Timeout
                      Quote: tracer
                      And by the way, I do not drink 20 years ..
                      Well, yes, you don’t drink that you don’t remember how old your son is. For example, in chronological order:

                      Thanks for the screenshots, I smiled as another genius managed it.
                      1. +1
                        10 June 2018 06: 24
                        Quote: 4-th Paradise
                        how the next genius managed

                        Alexander, this “genius” also flies from any country to Canada, in half an hour, regularly throws PSO-1 from SVD to the SSBN and vice versa, and the like. Very "advanced"!
          3. +1
            29 May 2018 18: 34
            Quote: tracer
            When with TT there is practice (the descent is hard there). Because of this, the gun leads away

            In TT? hard descent ?! Vyunosh go into any weapons store barging MMG and SHP and just once in your life at least turn in your hands what you so authoritatively fantasize about.
            Of all the domestic shooters (except for sporting ones), the TT has the best descent - very short and dry, with little effort, and most importantly almost no failure, unlike the same PMA where the failure of the descent after the trigger is pulled off is very large and can really be pulled off when fired in the hands of not an experienced shooter.
            Moreover, Fedor Vasilyevich designed the USM TT so that its characteristics could not be spoiled either by the assembly of schoolchildren in wartime, or by the curvature of the Chinese in the postwar.
            PS I foresee your replicas from the audience in advance - so I’ll immediately explain that not one seized TT passed through my hands, but now I officially own the traumatizer converted from a donor of 1938, though it was bought by me not for the purpose of defensiveness but as a historical model, let it but sawn but unlike MMG also shooting, albeit with rubber.
            1. +2
              31 May 2018 18: 19
              Dear comrade Gross Kaput! You are absolutely right! good
              The first thing that struck me when I became acquainted with the combat TT is its unexpectedly EXCELLENT descent, which is not even found in any sports pistol! Yes
              Although the rectilinear movement of the trigger "trigger" and was somewhat unusual (due to the constant use of the "rotating" triggers).
              hi
              1. 0
                1 June 2018 17: 16
                Did you shoot with pistols at all? I would let you shoot with my GLOCK 34 or Smith & Wesson MP9 pro ... You would change your mind dramatically. I’m not saying that after shooting with Smith & Wesson 41, they wouldn’t have looked at Margolin’s pistol at all. But everything will fit in comparison. And you have nothing to compare with. This is the problem. I write based on my personal experience as an active shooter and hunter. I tune all my pistols myself, including the trigger mechanisms.
                He repeatedly proved to the ignoramuses that the TT is an excellent pistol without any modifications. the best TTs were made after the war of the 50s series.
                1. 0
                  1 June 2018 22: 13
                  It’s good to flood, the “immigrant” is our Canadian, for a long time it’s time to change the flag because for a long time everyone understands that you have the same attitude to Canada as I do to China.
                  Quote: tracer
                  I would let you shoot with my GLOCK 34 or Smith & Wesson MP9 pro.

                  So you don’t have to give me anything - just do not intrusively post a photo of any of the listed pistols by putting a piece of paper with your nickname under it.
                  It's interesting what excuse will be, why the tracer cannot / does not want to post such a photo :)
                  Quote: tracer
                  and personal experience as an active shooter

                  Yeah, the arrow on the Internet.
                  1. +1
                    1 June 2018 23: 27
                    I also slap Fofan. The descent force on the TT 33 was allowed from 2.4 to 2.8 kg in Polish models write generally about four kg. Learn the mat part of the ignoramus. Take a picture of yourself. However, artiodactyl fofans even love.
                    1. -1
                      2 June 2018 12: 46
                      Quote: tracer
                      Learn the mat part of the ignoramus

                      Unlike you, I study it on real hardware and not on games and pictures.
                      Quote: tracer
                      Take a picture of yourself.

                      What was required to be proved was an ordinary balabol, although it was already clear from the posts that you didn’t even see the real weapon, but you didn’t even hold it in your hands laughing .
                      Quote: tracer
                      on TT 33 allowed from 2.4 to 2.8 kg

                      Come on? not only are you looking at iron only from pictures, you are still lazy and looking for information - we open instructions for repairing TTs and voila -
            2. +1
              1 June 2018 17: 31
              You will call your shoelaces "boots". I just want to say that for a pistol with a range of about 100 meters, the descent should be much lower than 1.5 kg. And in my opinion about .600 -700 grams. Otherwise, the descent will lead away aiming. The Kurkov system must also be abandoned. I like the gun FN 5/7. This is precisely the new concept for the development of pistols for the army. I use Kel-Tec PMR 30 as a substitute. The idea is the same. Descent on it to me more than on FN. So dear ... I have an order of magnitude more experience and practical knowledge. And in this article, this is more appropriate than your bragging.
              1. -1
                1 June 2018 22: 18
                Quote: tracer
                and with a range of about 100 meters, the descent should be much lower than 1.5 kg.

                Why not 200? something so little for a gun?
                Quote: tracer
                . Experience and practical knowledge I have an order of magnitude more.

                Well, since you are so experienced and knowledgeable all over yourself, and even you understand TT, answer one simple question - what most often fails in TT? There is one congenital disease there, and it manifests itself most fully on TTs of Polish production (Plant 11), the main reason for this sore is idle descents, but sofa specialists do not know about this because they are more familiar with TTs by games and tyrants. Well so what is this trouble?
                1. 0
                  4 June 2018 05: 31
                  Quote: gross kaput
                  what most often fails in TT

                  Hello namesake! This comrade will not answer this question. Will make assumptions after turning to the Internet mind. And as always screwed up.
                  1. -1
                    4 June 2018 19: 22
                    Hey.
                    One thing is not clear only - why does he constantly fantasize? To raise the ChSV or what?
                    1. +1
                      5 June 2018 06: 41
                      No, there is a category of people for whom a star is like air. And the Internet, in turn, gives a feeling of "complete" anonymity. You can call yourself at least someone, and it is difficult to refute it. The tracer uses this, only he forgets what he wrote about earlier. What pierced.
            3. 0
              9 June 2018 16: 34
              Quote: gross kaput
              Of all the domestic shooters (except for sporting ones), the TT has the best descent - very short and dry, with little effort, and most importantly almost no failure, unlike the same PMA where the failure of the descent after the trigger is pulled off is very large and can really be pulled off when fired in the hands of not an experienced shooter.

              if he also had a comfortable handle, but a bigger magazine eject button and a slide stop lever ... Unfortunately Tokarev could not fix it.
      2. 0
        9 June 2018 15: 57
        Quote: tchoni
        PM is almost an ideal option. The only step for improvement here is the transition to the partial use of composite materials in construction in order to facilitate it.

        "we have one ..." back in the early 80s, a version of the PMA with a reinforced plastic frame (like Glock) was developed and went through a full cycle of military tests. There was only one reason for the refusal to enter service; at that time there was no data on what would happen to the frame after 20 years of operation. The weight of the pistol without cartridges was 650 grams.
    2. -1
      29 May 2018 17: 53
      Quote: alex-cn
      Army conditions, however, require that he be distracted by himself for a long time and do not start shooting in the back, and here the core is needed ...

      Do not remind me of the protection class of modern army armor? At present, 6B43 is the main second-hand aircraft of the RF Armed Forces, and it so happens that its protection, depending on the version, is according to class 5A or 6 - i.e. he holds a bullet cartridge 7,62X54 7n1 or armor-piercing bullet B32 of the same cartridge. In the states, the main army armor is IMTV - it also holds rifle armor strikes -
      and now ask me a pistol cartridge with a muzzle energy higher than the energy of the cartridge 7,62X54 when firing from SVD, or at least 7,62X51 from M14?
      What is not like that? so where are you going to push armor-piercing bullets?
  3. +6
    22 May 2018 07: 19
    An interesting article, I read it with pleasure. Thank you
    hi
  4. +5
    22 May 2018 07: 47
    Good morning, Mark! wink
    I read the article with great interest, and I just liked the idea of ​​a “sub-caliber cartridge” for a pistol.
    As a former tanker, he would prefer something multiple-slaughter, even without a large weight limit. Only without a plastic frame. And why not make automatic fire with a limit of 2-3 shots. And with the rest, in my opinion, everything is true, only ... who will do it with us ...
    Thanks and good luck. hi
    1. +5
      22 May 2018 08: 09
      Good morning! hi If for the crews of armored vehicles, then, as I see it, better something is still compact under the intermediate cartridge. In my opinion, ideally in the layout of the bullpup with the discharge of the spent cartridge case down, although it is said that the bulpap seems to be inconvenient in cramped conditions, which I personally do not understand. The gun still has to be a pistol, it is uncontrollable during automatic fire mode with normal ammunition.
      1. +1
        22 May 2018 11: 11
        and let's go back to revolvers ... they were a weapon of crews for a long time during the Second World War.
        1. 0
          28 May 2018 04: 52
          Due to the lack of the ability to arm all TTs. The stopping effect of a bullet fired from Nagan is insufficient to defeat from the first shot
          1. +3
            28 May 2018 08: 33
            The crews of the armored vehicles were armed not because the TT was not enough, but because the barrel of the TT did not creep into the loophole of the tank or armored car. Before the war, Voevodin’s pistol was adopted, but the war prevented its mass production, it was necessary to produce as many well-mastered mosquitoes as possible, PPSh and DP, which were more needed for the front than Voevodin’s pistol.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. 0
        28 May 2018 04: 56
        The crews of armored vehicles are supposed to act in a war with the system of protection against weapons of mass destruction turned on (that is, they no longer talk about sticking out the trunk, as it was in World War II)
  5. +4
    22 May 2018 08: 19
    An interesting article, the author plus, laid out everything on the shelves!
    I do not agree that one gun is cheaper than specialized ones. I think on the contrary, several options for different calibers are better than one "universal". I think that the PM cartridge is very good, just like a pistol.
    Regarding ergonomics and some design details.
    Large handles (pistol or for an assault rifle) impair the retention of weapons in practice: it is difficult to hold a hand that is frozen, tired (you carried a heavy load before shooting) or an injured hand (such as a plank on your hand with a board). Large, anatomical pads are convenient only in the dash.
    The capacity of the store. Does PMM seem to have an enlarged store? Regarding the latch of the store, I completely agree, he often suffered with it, especially if the tips of his fingers froze. The shutter lag is still better than a lever; the buttons on the buttons will either be too loose or too tight.
    Speaking of ergonomics, they often forget about the "streamlining" of the pistol, modern weapons are all somehow angularly clingy. It is easy to expose the PM from a holster, a pistol pocket or just a pocket, except for the corners of the rear sight (which is better to slightly sharpen with a file) nothing clings.
    Regarding sights, I completely agree, a rectangular slot is less convenient, but it plays a role only in a dash, in practice there will be no time to aim for a melee gun.
    Auto fuse seems to be more marketing than convenience. If you need to send a cartridge into the chamber, and you have only one hand free (the opponent is hanging on the other or you are holding it or you have been injured) - there may be problems with the auto-fuse (the shutter of the same PM corrupts your hip).
    1. +3
      22 May 2018 11: 13
      Quote: Wilderness
      Does the PMM seem to have an enlarged store?

      12 rounds .....
    2. -1
      28 May 2018 04: 58
      The PM cartridge is not only good for the police, but for the army it is no longer suitable at all (look now, absolutely all the armies of the world are equipping their soldiers with armor plates and bulletproof helmets that hold a 9mm pistol bullet point-blank)
      1. +1
        28 May 2018 06: 22
        Yes, an army pistol, in fact, is not intended for the drilling of armor plates. It is used shortly, from melee range, when the main weapon is on reload (for example). A shot at a vskidka, legs flew above the head, the machine generally flew into the bushes - and do not care what was dressed on shell-shock, recharged and finished off)))
  6. +3
    22 May 2018 08: 45
    I read the article with pleasure, at the end of the reading I formulated a certain idea and .. here it is!
    The weapon described above will never be massive and will never be accepted for service. There will be several reasons for this. Even if you save on all that you can, the design of such a gun will have a lot of small details, which in total with the overall savings will lead to a drop in the reliability of the weapon.

    The author himself laid it on a silver platter.
    Ready to subscribe to every word in the article.
    And they are trying to make an ideal pistol based on the same criteria, limiting themselves in their quality and quantity from the standpoint of reliability and cost effectiveness of implementation.
    Thank you very much, Mark!
    With deep respect ... hi
  7. +9
    22 May 2018 09: 00
    A gun in the army is the most rarely firing weapon; it is a status item for an officer, just like a dagger for a naval officer. In a real combat situation, the platoon or company commander is still armed with an assault rifle; at the battalion commander and above, the assault rifle also has an assault rifle just in case. Therefore, in my opinion, PM for the army and the police is enough for the eyes. It is lightweight, compact and trouble-free. And due to the relatively weak cartridge, it uses a free shutter automation, which made the gun stunningly simple, and therefore reliable, cheap to manufacture and easy to maintain. Not without reason after the Second World War, the army demanded a new pistol, which PM became. Do you really think that the generals and officers who went through the bloody war did not know which pistol the army needed?
    1. 0
      22 May 2018 22: 08
      Not without reason after the Second World War, the army demanded a new pistol, which PM became.

      At this stage, armor penetration is not enough, due to the widespread use of body armor. Therefore, the PM does not suit the military.
      1. +1
        23 May 2018 13: 37
        Why a gun, if there is a gun?
        1. +1
          23 May 2018 19: 52
          Why a gun, if there is a gun?

          Why automatic machine, if there is a machine gun? wink
          for their tasks
          1. +1
            9 June 2018 16: 55
            Quote: glory1974
            Why a gun, if there is a gun?
            Why automatic machine, if there is a machine gun?

            Why a machine gun if there is an RPG-7? You all swim too shallow ....
            1. 0
              16 June 2018 22: 50
              All this is a frog sport - to be measured with all sorts of little balls ... We have Satan - and there is nothing cooler than her on this planet! .. laughing
      2. +2
        24 May 2018 15: 29
        What kind of military ???? Che you bring everything down from a sore head to a healthy one. Like if he decided to shoot himself, then too lazy to take off his helmet :). Or shoot an alarmist or deserter necessarily in the bronics.
        1. +1
          24 May 2018 19: 34
          Like if he decided to shoot himself, then too lazy to take off his helmet :). Or shoot an alarmist or deserter necessarily in the bronics.

          But other thoughts about the use of a pistol do not occur?
  8. +2
    22 May 2018 09: 09
    In detail, in detail, you will not say anything.
    However, I (from my sofa) have a different point of view. It’s pointless to interfere with the “tools” for fundamentally different tasks. As practice has repeatedly confirmed, the best military, police and sporting and hunting pistols cannot be in one ... person. If you try to make a super-universal base for all types of short-barrels, it will turn out to be either excessively heavy or will not satisfy the requirements of some potential operators.
    An army pistol is purely specific because it fires, as a rule, at greater distances against protected fast-moving targets, with the aim of injuring (incapacitating) to aggravate the enemy rear infrastructure. While a police pistol (like a self-defense pistol) should not punch a target (at least with the goal of not hitting third parties), give it as much energy as possible. That is, in the first embodiment, you need a high-speed small-caliber bullet with a solid core, and in the second - a soft bullet of a large caliber, prone to lose speed quickly. Well, how can I unify it?
    1. +3
      22 May 2018 09: 20
      in order to injure (incapacitate) to burden the enemy rear infrastructure

      You can see that you, as you yourself admitted, are a sofa theorist wink . No one in a combat situation will aim at the limbs of the enemy, the hand itself will point to the center of the target, and this is the body of a person. Moreover, the person’s arms and legs are constantly in motion, and aiming at them in a running person is impossible, especially from a pistol. So, of course, the best solution is to make an enemy soldier incapable disabled, so that he could not return to the front line after treatment, and would become a burden for the country's economy.
      1. +1
        22 May 2018 20: 05
        Just an amazing conclusion about "aiming at the limbs of the enemy." It would never have crossed my mind. Usually, the military uses pistols in two cases: 1) there is no other weapon / not put in the state; 2) the main weapon is damaged / lost / ammunition has ended / cannot be used for an objective reason.
    2. +3
      22 May 2018 10: 23

      Now in real hostilities: "To fire at long distances !, from a pistol" - only a rotozei who "fell in love" with the rest of small arms can))), or in the case of a shootout in cramped conditions. And about the "burdening of the enemy rear" an ordinary soldier thinks in the very last turn.
      1. +1
        22 May 2018 17: 46
        Quote: BORMAN82
        Now in real hostilities: "To fire at long distances !, from a pistol" - only a rotozei who "fell in love" with the rest of small arms can))), or in the case of a shootout in cramped conditions. And about the "burdening of the enemy rear" an ordinary soldier thinks in the very last turn.

        Or a pilot who suddenly became a pedestrian behind enemy lines ... Remember this ... Oleg was called ... "for the boys" shouted - and goodbye homeland ....
        1. 0
          23 May 2018 15: 19
          There are two things to note in this example.

          1. For pilots and tankers have long been developed small-sized software. I know the only AEK-919K "Kashtan" used in the RF Armed Forces in this capacity, the KA-50 crews were armed with it. Cartridge 9x18, rather weak, but this is purely an example from the distant 1994. Now, when ordering from the army, they will do both under 9x19 and under 9x21 and with the best qualities.
          2. A machine gun would not have helped ...
          1. 0
            23 May 2018 19: 13
            Quote: rait
            For pilots and tankers, small-sized software has long been developed. I know the only AEK-919K software used in the RF Armed Forces as such

            But Oleg flew with the good old APS. His bullet flies out of the barrel at a speed of 300 meters per second. Therefore, at a distance of 100 meters, you have to aim almost 2 meters above the target. Something to control, especially keep the pursuers at a distance with this gun you are unlikely to succeed. Perhaps, if Olek had an AK-74, he would not have fought off the modem (although who knows), but I would have been pleased with a few extra "ikhvans" who had gone unplanned to the guria. They tried to adapt the AKSU for the needs of aviation and tankers, which seems to be almost PP in size ... it turned out inconveniently. At first he doesn’t fit into the NAZ ... The second is terribly interfering to squeeze into the hatch. And in the case of a sharp "ahtung" with an unscheduled arson of a tank or plane, it is possible to jump out of it only with what is on itself.
            1. 0
              23 May 2018 19: 25
              His bullet flies out of the barrel at a speed of 300 meters per second. Therefore, at a distance of 100 meters, you have to aim almost 2 meters above the target.


              But you somehow forgot to mention that at a distance of 100 meters the dispersion from the APS will be such that no sighting will help.
              1. 0
                24 May 2018 08: 01
                Therefore, I explain to you that no PP or APS under the Makarovsky cartridge for arming a belligerent "non-infantry" is not relevant. Need a new cartridge and a new gun. Maybe without an automatic fire mode or with a cut-off of 2-3 shots, but FAR.
                1. 0
                  24 May 2018 08: 36
                  "Long-range" means that it must have a significant barrel length if you are not in the know, but the effective shooting distance is determined not only by the cartridge, but also by the barrel length. A full butt and a normal sight, that is, not a gun, are also highly desirable. You can stick at least 12.7 into the gun, but from this he will not shoot accurately for a kilometer.

                  Accordingly, the same problem again arises that is now with the standard AK-74 and even the AKSU, they are too big for the pilot or tanker to carry it on themselves and could immediately jump out of the car with it. That is why pilots and tankers are armed, including pistols and PP, and machine guns remain somewhere inside the car.

                  How do you propose to solve this problem while maintaining your range that is important to you?
                  1. 0
                    24 May 2018 11: 05
                    Quote: rait
                    How do you propose to solve this problem while maintaining your range that is important to you?

                    Approximately as follows. To begin with, we take a cartridge of something like 7.62x25 and bring it a little by re-pressing under a 5.45 bullet and, in my opinion, it is desirable to increase the power to 800-1000 J.
                    Next is the trunk itself. The barrel length is important, of course, but I remember that the same Mauser 96 had 120 mm for quite confident aimed shooting of meters up to 150-200. (by the way, it’s because of this feature that the TWKists of the times of the Great Patriotic War gladly armed themselves with it) it seems that with a barrel length of 150-200 millimeters you can get not worse characteristics. Butt, in my opinion, a well-developed question. Retractable wire or telescopic. Plus sights in the form of a collimator. Something like that, purely theoretically. With these "conditions" and the use of the composite, as well as automation with a short stroke of the barrel, it is possible to keep within 200-300 millimeters of total length and weight in the range of 1.0-1.5 kg. Which, as it seems to me, is already bearable if it is aggregated with a comfortable shoulder strap or, more likely, a hip cabaret. If you do not chase the automatic fire mode, then it is quite possible to get a kind of sniper rifle with a good range and good penetration ability. Again, unification in caliber with the main army cartridge will allow the use of defective barrels from AK.
                    1. +1
                      24 May 2018 11: 45
                      That is, by concept, you left the pistols (although you originally wrote about the pistol) to the PDW, which is completely new. There is MP7, there is FN P90, KAC PDW, Magpul PDR, ST Kinetics CPW and I have definitely forgotten something, not all are listed.

                      I really didn’t see anywhere in modern products that automatic equipment with a short course of the barrel would work with a cartridge for 800-1000j, I would not see anywhere PDW or even PP with a total length of 200-300mm, and how the weapon will kick with a weight of 1-1.5kg and I don’t even want to know such power of a cartridge, but these are already details of your personal Wishlist.

                      By the way, I also just support PDW as a weapon for tankers and pilots. Of the minuses, it is worth noting that the new cartridge is another production line, a headache for logistics and the inability to exchange cartridges with other divisions, but there is still no way to go.
                      1. 0
                        24 May 2018 14: 38
                        Quote: rait
                        That is, by concept, you left the pistols (although you originally wrote about the pistol) to the PDW, which is completely new.

                        I'm talking about a pistol in the format of APS or 911 Colt with a slightly elongated barrel. But not under the Makarovsky cartridge, but under the PWD cartridge. PWD is rather a hybrid of PP and an assault rifle, although again, there is no clear terminology and it all depends on the weapon laws of a particular area. I’m noticing that I’m not saying anywhere that I’m laying claim to some kind of novelty of the concept. Just talking about life requirements for "weapons for the crew."
                        As for high power - I will tell you this - there are a lot of common pistol cartridges with a capacity of 500 to 1500 J. Especially all kinds of magnums are famous for this. (I am not talking about the 500 magnum elephant breeders)
                    2. 0
                      24 May 2018 16: 00
                      As for high power - I will tell you this - there are a lot of common pistol cartridges with a capacity of 500 to 1500 J. Especially all kinds of magnums are famous for this. (I am not talking about the 500 magnum elephant breeders)


                      Magnums, that is, but only most of them are used exclusively in revolvers. Rarely in pistols where a non-short-circuit automation scheme is used. For example, the most popular pistol for Desert Eagle magnums uses automation with a rotary bolt, a piston and the removal of powder gases, it is very similar to assault rifles.

                      I'm talking about a pistol in the format of APS or 911 Colt with a slightly elongated barrel.


                      You are a little earlier

                      Butt, in my opinion, a well-developed question. Retractable wire or telescopic. Plus sights in the form of a collimator.


                      And this is not a gun. In my opinion, you yourself cannot decide what you want.
                      1. 0
                        24 May 2018 16: 09
                        Quote: rait
                        And this is not a gun. In my opinion, you yourself cannot decide what you want.

                        I spoke out exactly what I want. If you don’t understand or your faith doesn’t allow you to assume that the gun has a stock (the same APS attaches a kabura), this is your problem.
                  2. +1
                    9 June 2018 17: 09
                    Quote: rait
                    Long-range "means that it must have a significant barrel length if you are not in the know, but the effective shooting distance is determined not only by the cartridge, but also by the barrel length. A full-fledged butt and a normal sight, that is not a gun, are also highly desirable. You can use a gun at least 12.7 shove, but from this aiming to shoot a kilometer he will not.

                    but not what he does not understand, he is also a "writer, not a reader" ...
            2. +1
              24 May 2018 16: 14
              I spoke out exactly what I want. If you don’t understand or your faith doesn’t allow you to assume that the gun has a stock (the same APS attaches a kabura), this is your problem.


              If you are so illiterate in the subject that you are not able to distinguish between a clip-on holster-butt and a retractable telescopic or wire (about which you wrote earlier), then this is your problem. Actually, this is a diagnosis of your entire opus, starting with a cartridge of 1 kJ and automation in the short course of the barrel, you are simply not literate enough to know that this is impractical and is not used anywhere. But you do not know this.
              1. 0
                24 May 2018 16: 40
                Quote: rait
                Actually, this is a diagnosis of your entire opus, starting with a cartridge of 1 kJ and automation in the short course of the barrel, you are simply not literate enough to know that this is impractical and is not used anywhere. But you do not know this.

                Well, you’re understandable. Only, Boyus, and PMa were not held in their hands.
                As for the "inappropriateness" of the proposed automation scheme, it was still used in automatic pistols under a powerful cartridge. There was such a grislivinmag. Automag ... also used automation with a short stroke.
                I advise you to stop the unnecessary theoretical skirmish in which you are trying to make me drunk to the pillar and go to the shooting range. Take the “boar” carbine under 5.45 and shoot with one hand. Try to do the same from a single-barreled 16-gauge, and even better than the 20th (I’m afraid you won’t find one at the shooting range) Wax the PM and try to hit the growth target at 100 meters. If you find APS, repeat the exercise with it. And all questions by themselves will disappear
                1. 0
                  24 May 2018 17: 01
                  As for the "inappropriateness" of the proposed automation scheme, it was still used in automatic pistols under a powerful cartridge. There was such a grislivinmag. Automag ... also used automation with a short stroke.


                  Which was the only one (well, there was also the same 44 Auto Mag with almost the same fate) and was produced from 1983 to 1999 and did not receive distribution, was not accepted for service and was not considered. A very revealing example.

                  I advise you to stop the unnecessary theoretical skirmish in which you are trying to make me drunk to the pillar and go to the shooting range. Take the Boar Carabiner under 5.45 and shoot with one hand.


                  Maybe you can still offer me to hold the carabiner with my legs? lol
      2. 0
        22 May 2018 20: 09
        Quote: BORMAN82
        And about the "burdening of the enemy rear" an ordinary soldier thinks in the very last turn.

        The military leadership thinks about this, taking one or another model into service.
    3. +1
      24 May 2018 15: 34
      This is where such details about the army pistol come from, and in general what is the “army pistol? Is it with the PM that“ they are firing at fast-moving targets "? :)
  9. +9
    22 May 2018 09: 38
    What should be the perfect gun?

    He must terrify the enemy.
    1. +6
      22 May 2018 09: 40
      And where is the box with the tape for a thousand rounds and the water cooling system? lol
      1. +3
        22 May 2018 09: 58
        He’s a laser, he must have a battery the size of a car wink
        1. +7
          22 May 2018 10: 04
          Ah, so this is Han Solo’s blaster wassat ? Well then, yes, you can’t do without batteries!

          The funny thing is, he pulled the trigger laughing Although apparently, with the trigger pulled, this props simply can not fit.
          1. +4
            22 May 2018 12: 38
            hi On the “museum” photo you can see the above (but I don’t watch the front of the Mauser shutter, the blind has already become completely ?! winked ) that the trigger has been pulled from a combat platoon, since the optical sight is attached to this Mauser with a shift to the right and does not interfere with manipulating the trigger laughing
            I watched Star Wars for a long time, and I forgot how Han Solo’s weapons looked wink And Harrison Ford is still so young here, I can’t believe how fast life flies request !
            Thank you, Kot_Kuzya and Curious, for introducing fun notes good
      2. +1
        22 May 2018 13: 43
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        And where is the box with the tape for a thousand rounds and the water cooling system? lol

        What are you ?! Why!? THIS IS THE BLASTER!
    2. +1
      22 May 2018 11: 09
      and where is the grenade launcher.
    3. +3
      22 May 2018 11: 37
      Quote: Curious
      He must terrify the enemy.

      And shoot grenades! (seen in some movie ...) winked
      1. +1
        23 May 2018 11: 27
        See Judge Dredd
  10. +2
    22 May 2018 11: 07
    The best gun is the one that you have, and if you still know how to use it, it simply does not have a price ... philosophizing on what is good and what is bad can be endless. Trends on this topic change over time ... armor penetration, there was a TT ... stopping, there was a PM ... than the PMM didn’t triple the riddle at all, although it is the only one in recent years that won a real competition ... but in the delivery summaries competitors flicker ... protectionism has not yet been canceled.
  11. 0
    22 May 2018 12: 28
    It is always interesting to read the articles from the weapons of craftsmen, behind whose shoulders are already a series of excellent examples of the use of small arms.
    1. +1
      9 June 2018 17: 15
      Quote: Engineer
      It is always interesting to read the articles from the weapons of craftsmen, behind whose shoulders are already a series of excellent examples of the use of small arms.

      You mean Maok is a gunsmith? wassat I hope this is subtle trolling, otherwise I feel sorry for you ...
      1. +1
        16 June 2018 15: 13
        laughing I also hope that this was a joke, to the production and development of weapons, I have the same attitude as Volochkova to the ballet at the moment.
  12. avt
    +2
    22 May 2018 12: 47
    1) The pistol must be able to transfer at least between two ammunition, by replacing the minimum number of weapon parts.
    2) The design of the gun should provide for the possibility of adaptation to the special requirements, if it does not harm the basic versions of the weapon.
    request OTs-27, and the second point is about a duck - it flies, but not like a swift, walks, but not like an ostrich, swims, but not like a penguin.
    In my opinion, such a weapon design will make it possible to create weapons that are easily adaptable to various ammunition, suitable for use in both the army and the police with appropriate ammunition.
    But does he need to enter orbit? wassat
    And finally, the most important point at which this article should be completed. The weapons described above will never become mass and will never be adopted. There will be several reasons for this.
    There is only one reason - why the heck is such a universal pistol needed when the army is still full of different weapons? Type of machine gun, machine gun and software? wassat The author, giving out quite good quality articles, was clearly confused by the wrong thing. I think so - if you take for the concept in search of
    What should be the perfect gun?
    the following moments - a pistol in fact the second weapon in the army at the shooter (Az sinful still considers it ... a weapon ,, hand-to-hand combat " bully ) and the second point - the gun should just be reliable with an equally reliable cartridge. Which should work in the most exotic conditions, and without being distracted by the topic - Why would I shoot an opponent with specifics ..... in connection with the prevailing specifics ??? wassat Despite the fact that you need to somehow ask the enemy to wait until I change the barrel for a new specific cartridge for this new specific task. At the same time, it’s clearly not in the dash. Everything else is a commercial bred business, called marketing, it seems. So we wish the author not to develop the topic raised in this article, but as before to please himself with capacious and informative articles about specific samples of the same pistols.
    1. +3
      22 May 2018 13: 19
      Therefore, PM and only PM!
      1. avt
        +2
        22 May 2018 13: 47
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        Therefore, PM and only PM!

        With an Israeli handle modification? Well, yes. It will also serve, such as this option is preferable to all ,, martial arts "and their theorists bully In the skillful hands of a practicing shooter, a very strong argument. By the way, about the “small capacity of the magazine-holder" - you can’t hit the target with the first one shot? Why do you shoot two from the holder with 18 rounds? All will be the same result - you will get the first in reply.
        1. +2
          22 May 2018 13: 54
          In fact, those who have been in military conflicts know that they are using a machine gun, and only a machine gun. And the front-line soldiers both put and put on the gun!
          1. avt
            +4
            22 May 2018 14: 36
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            In fact, those who have been in military conflicts know that

            If you have something heavier than an automatic machine, “Kalash”, you won’t even drag the AKSU, of course, you’ll be overweight, but even a PM with two clips doesn’t pull your pocket, especially since you have to try hard to let it down. he shook it with road dust, shook it off, shook it off and ... it works, although of course they threw it off. Army soldiers .... well, let’s say - with a small shot at it from the shooting range, it happened and grumbled - just shoot yourself. wassat But I didn’t hear anything bad about PM from old, still those Soviet technicians (well, unless a couple praised me for a 9mm Mauser - the reptile himself hits 10 bully ) Only - ,, You must be able to shoot " bully Once again - PM is the second weapon in capable hands, a serious and reliable thing. But whether you need in addition - it is necessary to decide individually.
      2. +2
        23 May 2018 12: 19
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        Therefore, PM and only PM!

        But there is also a PMM (PMM-8, PMM-12) ...
    2. 0
      9 June 2018 17: 19
      Quote: avt
      The author, giving out quite good quality articles, was clearly confused by the wrong thing.

      in fact, half of his articles are exactly the same, only for some reason they usually don’t notice this.
      1. +1
        16 June 2018 15: 16
        How was there in the fairy tale "I am not a magician, I just learn ..." Therefore I am always happy if I am corrected and sent to the right direction. wink
        1. 0
          24 June 2018 16: 53
          Mark, no offense, but your biggest mistake is that you lack knowledge in mechanical engineering (the production of small arms is part of mechanical engineering), namely the basics, including the technology of production and interaction of machine parts. The second problem of the conclusion is that you are in a hurry with conclusions without looking at the problem from all sides.
          1. +2
            25 June 2018 18: 24
            I try to pull up knowledge, and consider all this disgrace from all sides, but for now see for yourself smile Here is the electronic part of the weapon, here is my topic. But it will be at best years through 20)))
  13. +4
    22 May 2018 13: 25
    The author made a lot of efforts and thought out a lot of nuances that the modern market in Western countries usually satisfies. But let's go back to our garden. The Russian arms school offers a lot of practical and often ahead of the leading gunsmiths around the world! But you look at different interviews of officials from the police and the defense ministry responsible for the orders. There is the first and main question: "How much will it cost ?!" And the answer is only 10 rubles more expensive than the current product, they say, “Oh! It comes out expensive! It seems like a trifle to you, but try to rearm the whole army! Equip it with components for repair in military workshops and understand our concern.” That is, in Russia, as they saved, they often continue to save on quality, which provides the best conditions for personnel. They will object to me that our weapons are the most reliable. But let me remind you that we are talking about the qualities of weapons that turn into ease of use. We have long been calculated what qualities of materials and systems provide the greatest reliability and acceptable accuracy of fire. And the rest is saved. And because of this it seems that we do not live in the greatest country, but in a state of some kind of impoverished people. And by the way, this happens not only with army and police equipment, but everywhere in the "national economy". In a newly commissioned house, the internal walls can easily bend in centimeters in places on the 5-7, floor slabs “scatter” in the height of the corners in 10 cm, and plumbing from the very beginning can work very poorly and often clog.
    But back to the pistol theme. For the police, PM now satisfies the most advanced conditions. The capacity of his store is enough for short skirmishes with criminals, and there are almost no others in the vastness of Russia (approximately 5% of the total, which statistics assumes as close to the absolute figure). PM is not very convenient and, due to bad ergonomics, when using the free shutter, it often gives a large spread when shooting. And his cartridge is quite satisfactory and with a steel core sews most of the light body armor worn under civilian clothes. Therefore, work should be carried out in terms of improving the ergonomics of PMA, as well as the transition of production from milled to stamped parts. And this is much more profitable than taking a new pistol for the police, created from scratch. In addition, manufacturers offer wonderful revolvers, which is even easier and cheaper to purchase.
    Now the gun is for the military. ПЯ-18, moreover, most of the parts were stripped from foreign samples, and the first lots went poor-quality. And it weighs more than a kilogram, and the cartridge 9x19 pairs. Which no longer meets modern requirements for army weapons, where so many wars are dressed in reliable armor. We have two promising options: the proven WWII 7,62x25 (though you have to upgrade it to increase the initial speed and penetration) and 9x21 already tested in Serdyukov’s pistol.
    All that the author writes in the article is the high cost of modernizing production, new educational literature and retraining of personnel. In the current environment, this is a dream for the best. The Russian Ministry of Defense and the state as a whole will not be able to afford this, in large mass production. With such an economic policy, with that army and police, look again, the pants will crawl from hunger. There were already articles on VO about Voronezh Baltimore, where the Moscow Region cannot really repair the airdrome, for a year now!
    Conclusion for the author: Dreaming is not harmful, it is harmful not to dream! Yours faithfully!
  14. +2
    22 May 2018 13: 39
    Dear Author, Mark Poddubny, briefly looked through the Article and photo, carefully, twice Yes , read your "Conclusion" and all comments on the Article. Carefully, in a calm atmosphere, I will read the Article, rethink your information and mature thoughts "about" I will definitely write here Yes . You raised an interesting topic.
    Well, regarding your “Conclusion”, IMHO, you, in my opinion, are very supercritical to yourself, such a “friendly self-criticism” was written that not every unfriendly critic writes (there is an opinion that professional critics usually go to those who have suffered a fiasco in creativity, because, "who knows how, he does, but who does not know how, he teaches" ?! winked ) so write wink Yes
    Mark, it’s necessary, just now, for the third time re-reading the “conclusion”, I accidentally saw and read what was written in small print at the end! Honestly, Damn-Damn Nice, I know that you sincerely! good But now I’m even hesitating, I don’t know what to do with this comment of mine, he looked somehow "puffed-up and turkey", pompous, and now absolutely ...
    Okay, I’ve started, so I’ll end with those “parting words” that I wanted to tell you, instead of megasamocriticism, I would like to see in your Article final, albeit slightly self-confident (but this is much better than a priori virtually “turning your cheeks” all at once smile , IMHO) lines: "If anyone can write better, let him write and we all read together! Yes
    Criticism is accepted only constructive, indiscriminate, do not! The author is confident in his competence and is constantly expanding his level of knowledge in the chosen field of activity (and indeed it is, comrade Mark good , I can clearly see it!)! "
    By the way, you think in vain that the specialists involved in weapons (and any other industry!) Are not the first year in terms of creativity, they will surpass the enthusiastic, albeit not quite professional, “first year” - in my practice there have been quite a lot of cases when “first-year” neophytes, possessing a “non-clouded” look at the problem, contributed a decisive “fresh stream”!
    After all, the main thing is the general idea of ​​the product, and the technical implementation, although in many respects depends on the level of professionalism of the performers, is nevertheless secondary! IMHO
    Some designers, specialists, professionally engaged in "this issue" for more than one year and not one decade, remain uninitiated "artisans-performers", alas!
    Best regards hi
  15. +1
    22 May 2018 13: 49
    Missed a lot. The gun must be equipped with a search engine. As well as headphone output. When searching for the enemy, if he does not respond to his friend, he must whisper to the owner which side the enemy stands on the markings on the clock, which should be attached to the gun. In addition, he himself must choose a battle supply, which will definitely destroy the enemy from five magazine clips. And he in no case should not shoot at his master if he falls into the wrong hands.
    1. +2
      22 May 2018 14: 00
      Why is it so desirable? The author stole your contract? smile
    2. +1
      24 May 2018 15: 57
      Forgot to add that it should be disposable, in the course of heading to block, have a glanas label, so that you could find it if you lost it. Mounted on the arm. At the central checkpoint, the ammunition consumption and the state of the weapon should be visible.
  16. +5
    22 May 2018 14: 27
    Reading the article, at times I want to say the words "heroine" f. “It can’t be!”: “They don’t know what they want!” ... The author “dreams” a lot about bicaliber (multi-caliber) pistols ... And what to dream? Such weapons have long been available, but still occupy a rather modest niche. "Road spoon for dinner ..." and a pistol, ready to "instantly" shoot like a "cow" at the cowboy! How long did the "cowboy Joe" survive. If he continually had to "reconfigure" his gun? In passing, you can see that the Oplot-3M pistol was presented at a recent exhibition in Donetsk ... a bicaliber (9-mm PM and 7,62-mm TT). But only the 9-mm sample was "shown" ... t. e. , it seems, the "emphasis" is still made on one caliber ... is it casual? Instead of trying to solve the problems “voiced” by the Author not with the help of “different-sized” pistols, but with the help of “different” cartridges of the same caliber and the same length ... The ballistic properties of the cartridges (pistol) vary depending on the “type” of the bullet, power powder charge .. The caliber of the pistol barrel can be "familiar" -9-mm ... the length of the sleeve is increased in comparison with the PM cartridge; i.e. choice from: 9 x 21 mm / 9 x 25 mm / 9 x 30 mm .... Accordingly, the pistol shutter must be designed for the appropriate cartridge and can work on a different principle than the PM. You can consider the design with a telescopic chamber ... or telescopic cartridge ...
    As for the rejection by some comrades of the automatic fire mode in pistols, it should be noted that in some cases this mode will be useful ... For example, special Pistol to Carbine Conversion Kit modules are now being released which turn pistols into carbines ... or into pistols -machine guns (if there is automatic fire in the gun ...)

    There is a similar module for PM. Here, as they say, "the main thing is to start!" ... You can even think of a machine gun! wink

    To the author, I give a picture of a coming and pleasant dream ....:

    or this one:

    wink hi bully
  17. +5
    22 May 2018 14: 40
    What should be the perfect gun?

    The ideal gun is the one that is, and the bad one that will not be ... at the right time.
  18. +2
    22 May 2018 20: 08
    Of course, the frame of the gun must be strong enough to withstand the process of firing, and external influences. In addition to all this, one must also take into account resistance to prolonged exposure to ultraviolet radiation; many manufacturers at one time quite sensitively applied their foreheads about this problem.


    This problem was solved quite quickly using polyamide with a stack. fibers and ceramic additives.

    The design of the pistol must be laid the ability to control the amount of ammunition in the process of firing.

    a worthy husband is accustomed to counting cartridges when shooting, those who can not and the devices will not bring much benefit

    At very short distances, the efficiency is really present and not at all small, but already at 10-15 meters it will be strange to talk about effective automatic fire without using a stock.


    even with a butt, it’s not only “strange” but even indecent to talk about accuracy

    If you take high quality materials, carefully monitor the production, then the price tag for such a gun will be such that it will not only become unavailable for mass distribution, but even in the foreign civilian market not everyone will be able to afford such a weapon.


    personal weapons (America does not count) it will not come into fashion. Anyone who has chosen a suitable trunk will save money slowly and pay 1000 and even more American francs. a good gun from a good owner can also be inherited longer.
    1. 0
      24 June 2018 16: 58
      Quote: Maki Avellievich
      This problem was solved quite quickly using polyamide with a stack. fibers and ceramic additives.

      nge because Glocky at minus 40 can not be dropped as their frame breaks into several parts?
  19. +3
    23 May 2018 19: 05
    Extend the PM barrel and lighten a bit - that's all. Reliable and cheap. When you have to clutch at a gun, the range allows you to shoot not in the armor, but literally in the face. Do not miss. But I'm talking about the army.
    1. -1
      28 May 2018 02: 51
      Lengthening the barrel of the gun will not make it easier (rather the opposite) about cheapness — then you will have to produce new holsters (for a longer barrel), so such “upgrades” are just a throw-out of money, for their own purposes, there should be a gun (like Americans have PP for any situation , the special forces just choose which one and with what nozzles they take for a specific task) for our police there is no need to extend the barrel of the PM (one question WHY?) and for the army of the PM even the modernized one is not good (it would be better to make a gun that could fire the most the 5.45mm cartridge widespread in the army from the AK-74, so that in the war after firing the only cartridge, this PM will not be thrown out, because there is nowhere to take cartridges)
  20. +1
    23 May 2018 19: 53
    tchoni (quote): “For the military and police, a gun is a tool that, for the most part, hangs on your hips and is needed once, cut off two times a year. Pass the test. Therefore, light weight, reliability and speed of manufacture come to the fore here. to shooting. "

    Dear Eugene, you probably mean the Swiss army, there really is a gun needed ONLY for "pulling on the hip and passing offsets." And no less Swiss police, which do not need either riot police or special forces. We live in a completely different country and the Lord God himself will not tell you what will happen tomorrow in our God-saving Russia. I would prefer something more serious than just a cracker for taking tests. hi
  21. +2
    23 May 2018 20: 00
    Quote: Tank Hard
    Why is it so desirable? The author stole your contract? smile


    Probably even worse. "Sherce, you know, la fam!" But let's not talk about the personal ... wink
  22. 0
    24 May 2018 09: 24
    Kot_Kuzya,
    270 J at caliber can stop a horse? Don’t tell, it’s scary, it will hurt the rider — it’s yes, you can shoot a skull (forgive me green), almost point blank, but stopping a horse from a gun is ridiculous, like a bear with an AK-74.
    I don’t know which side I need to go to the horse, but Dad was quite capable (I still don’t understand why the future air defense officers were taught to ride a horse and handle broadsword in the 50s)
  23. +1
    24 May 2018 16: 54
    It would be nice for the author of the article to find out by whom and in what conditions the pistol in the Russian army is mainly used, maybe then the picture would become clearer. Divide the military by categories to whom the LO is assigned. And only after that it will be determined with potential customers. I have a question for the author, why do car manufacturers make seats of their own design for each car, although they ... are the same for everyone, but LO do the same for millions? It turns out that the requirements for comfort ass higher.
  24. -1
    28 May 2018 02: 43
    Based on the experience of numerous “shooters” without reading the article, I can derive my formula for the “ideal pistol” —first kill with 1 shot so as not to waste time on the object immediately switching to the next victim, the second to break through the defense (since if the enemy is protected it doesn’t matter what the bulletproof vest is this or a thick rhino skin, the bullet must break through the defense in order to accomplish 1 task — to kill.15th is a sufficient supply of ammunition (well, no less than XNUMX, better more) so that in battle when you are left alone with the enemy, they will not end at the wrong time and this it wouldn’t cost you your life (it’s also advisable to know how many rounds in the clip like in a game — I heard in some cool pistols there is a special marker showing the remainder) in addition, the pistol should tolerate dirt and drops (ideally like Glock, which doesn’t even shoot in a pool damaging the barrel) these are the requirements for an army pistol. And for a policeman such blunt bullets at a low speed (so as not to fly away and harm passers-by ) a blunt bullet has a good stopping effect, and if you accidentally get into another policeman in a bulletproof vest you won’t kill him, then the police gun should be tuned to the handprint of a certain person (the programmer will bind at the time the time sheet is issued) that is, it makes no sense to kill the policeman in order to get the barrel and grabbing a weapon from him, criminals will not be able to use it) it is not difficult to do this by mounting a fingerprint scanner like a smartphone in the handle or on the shutter button, and the shot should be fired from the touch button, which will provide greater dust and moisture protection for lack of gaps and relieve the need for a mechanical safety lock, which gives extra weight (and a heavy pistol on an outstretched arm if you hold it, the hand will begin to tremble)
    1. +2
      28 May 2018 10: 27
      And the Glanas lighthouse in the case for fixing both the time and the place of use of the weapon (here the security forces will explode p ... k!). Such weapons can be rolled out to the civilian market without any problems. Blocking in public institutions at the entrance remotely by type of transponder. All this can be crammed into a non-separable cartridge store. I bought cartridges, you shoot at the shooting range, well done, right there you can get the ammunition cancellation. If where the thread in the forest, write "with confession" what the hell ?.
    2. 0
      28 May 2018 20: 51
      More or less good universal pistol ALREADY exists, bring to mind - GSh-18
      Cartridge 9x19 - provides a wide range of ammunition, from armor-piercing to subsonic or expansive. No other cartridge is NEEDED, especially since it is now it is a common standard
      Bring to mind Gsh-18, make him a compact version with a shortened magazine / handle - and more than enough. Maybe KK with its submarine will come up with what is also an option, though GSH-18 is better
      1. 0
        8 June 2018 20: 27
        Why is GS better than submarine?
      2. 0
        19 June 2018 18: 46
        The 9x19 cartridge is good, but the 9x19 Parabellum / Luger cartridge, NATO 9mm and 6H31 are three different cartridges with the same dimensions but different pressure in the barrel.

        "Antique" weapons shoot Parabellum / Luger, modern western pistols shoot 9 mm NATO (unless it is a super-duper small pistol that the NATO cartridge can not stand). Russian pistols are tested on 6N31.

        It is necessary to do something new if someone needs it and he is ready to pay for it or there is hope to sell in large batches.

        Glock 17 cannot shoot 6H31 for a long time. But there is Glock 31 with .357 Sig, which is not less than 6H31 in power. This 31st model is needed, but with a special weapon under 9x19.
        1. 0
          24 June 2018 17: 21
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          modern western pistols shoot 9 mm NATO (unless it’s a super-duper small pistol that the NATO cartridge can’t stand).

          9mm NATO cartridge, namely, "9x19 + P +" will not stand the majority of purely civilian pistols in the USA market. This cartridge is forbidden to sell to civilians, and the use of more expensive alloys for the manufacture of the barrel increases the cost of the gun.
          Quote: Dugin
          Why is GS better than submarine?
          sounds cooler (the names of the designers are better known) But only the PL is much more reliable, and the PL-15k has already been adopted by the police, and the PL-15 has passed more than half of the military tests.


          1. 0
            24 June 2018 17: 40
            another video appeared with Lebedev's microinterview explaining a design change compared to the PL-14, in particular due to the fault of the domestic cartridge ...
          2. 0
            26 June 2018 21: 14
            The submarine did not pass the tests and was not adopted for service, unlike the GS.
  25. 0
    19 June 2018 18: 34
    There can be no perfect pistol "for everything."

    But there are pistols with the most successful compromises.

    Glock is one of those. And caliber from .380 to 9x19 and .357 Sig, from .40S & W to 10 mm auto and .45 ACP

    And in all sizes from standard, compact, subcompact to elongated and flat with a single-row magazine.

    The entire line covers most of the needs and requirements of users from self-defense to police, military, IPSC athletes and special forces.
  26. 0
    25 June 2018 14: 17
    Quote: 4-th Paradise
    9mm NATO cartridge, namely, "9x19 + P +" will not stand the majority of purely civilian pistols in the USA market.


    Friend,

    I don’t quite understand, that is, such “civilian pistols”, since the Gloks, Sig, Walters, CheZetas, Hecklers, etc. sold to civilians are completely unimpaired military pistols that shoot 9 mm of NATO completely, and with that the cartridge.

    The fact that these cartridges are not sold to civilians does not affect the fact that the above pistols eat 9 mm of NATO for themselves.

    Most likely subcompact pistols like the Ruger LC9 or the Glock 43 do not eat this cartridge, since the barrel walls are two times thinner. I can at least see the difference on my 17/19/43 Glocks.

    By the way, Glock 43 with its "thin" barrel shoots itself a Fiocchi Black Mamba 100 grain, declared 660 Joules, which, two, are larger than average, but the cartridge is not + P. The pressure in the barrel is normal according to SAAMI and CIP.

    Well, I’m definitely not going to poke NATO 9mm into it, unlike the 17th or 19th model.

    wink

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