Military Review

Gotland bout 19 June 1915 g. Part of 9. Conclusion and conclusions

65
So, the Gotland Cycle has come to an end. We gave a complete description of the battle at Gotland (as far as we could), and now it remains to “summarize what was said,” that is, to bring the conclusions from all the previous articles together. In addition, it will be interesting to consider the conclusions that the Germans made as a result of the battle at Gotland.


Immediately we can say the following. No "shame" of Russian fleet on the island of Gotland June 19, 1915 did not take place. In fact, the following happened:

1. The Baltic Fleet Communications Service was able to promptly reveal the enemy’s intentions to concentrate all the bulk of the warships in Kiel for an imperial review, which the Kaiser was to attend;

2. The fleet headquarters promptly (no more than 12 hours) developed and brought to the direct executors a rather complicated plan of the German port attack, which involved the use of heterogeneous forces with the release of a demonstration group, long-range cover forces, and the deployment of submarines on the enemy’s possible route. . Perhaps the only drawback of the plan was the change of the object of attack - at the insistence of the new fleet commander V.А. Kanin instead of Kolberg was chosen Memel;

3. The deployment of surface ships was carried out in accordance with the plan, however, the deficiencies of the material part of domestic submarines affected, as a result of which they had to assign patrol areas not where the situation required. Nevertheless, the fleet headquarters, having only one fully combat-ready submarine (we are talking about the British E-9 under the command of Max Horton), appointed her precisely where her presence could bring the greatest benefit;

4. Strong fog interfered with the shelling of Memel, but thanks to the clear and professional communication services of the Baltic Fleet, a detachment of Commodore I. Karpf was discovered (“Karf” was mistakenly indicated in Russian sources), who set up a minefield in the northern part of the Baltic Sea;

5. Intelligence specialists provided prompt decryption of the German radiograms and sent them to the flagship of the commander of the Special Purpose Detachment, Mikhail Koronatovich Bakhirev, which allowed the latter to intercept I. Karpf's ships without any problems. Detection and targeting of own forces to an enemy detachment should be considered a brilliant success of the Baltic naval intelligence service (functioning under the name of the Baltic Fleet Communications Service), as well as a model of interaction with the ships of the fleet;

6. Contrary to popular belief, M.K. Bakhirev and his 1 brigade of cruisers did not undertake any difficult maneuvers in a battle with the Augsburg, Albatross and three destroyers. An analysis of their maneuvering, according to domestic and German sources, shows that for most of the battle Russian ships constantly and at full speed went to the intersection of the enemy’s course or after him, trying to use as much artillery as possible. An exception to this rule arose only when the German destroyers set up a smoke screen and the ships of the 2 second brigade “Bogatyr” and “Oleg” changed the course to get around it - but in this case their maneuver should be recognized as correct and fully corresponding to the current situation;



7. Contrary to popular opinion about inaccurate shooting of Russian ships, the 203-mm artillery of the armored cruisers Bayan and Admiral Makarov achieved (taking into account various assumptions) from 4,29% to 9,23% of hits in the Albatros, which indicates excellent preparation Russian gunners. The absence of hits at Augsburg is explained by the high speed of the latter, which made it possible to keep at the limit of visibility, which did not exceed 4,5-5 miles on that day, and that the cruiser quickly left the battlefield.

8. Further actions by M.K. Bakhirev was determined by two factors, which, unfortunately, were often underestimated by national historiography. First, he mistakenly identified the Albatross minelayer as an Undine type cruiser. Secondly, the communications service of the Baltic Fleet, which had worked so brilliantly before, subsequently, alas, misinformed the Russian commander, passing on to the flagship Admiral Makarov information about the presence of a strong German detachment, including armored ships, at the northern tip of Gotland. As a result of this, M.K. Bakhirev could only guess what was going on and why I. Karpf took his ships out to sea. If the Russian commander realized that he had driven the Albatross minelayer to the stones, he would have easily guessed the goal of the German operation, and so ... Seeing the enemy light cruisers and destroyers and “knowing” about the presence of a strong German detachment, in fact, cut off the Russian way to retreat, M.K. Bakhirev saw his main task in connecting as quickly as possible with long-range armadillos ("Tsesarevich" and "Glory") in order to be able to give the Germans a decisive battle;

9. As a result, M.K. Bakhirev did not give a serious rebuff to the Roon detachment, but in fact he only shot back from him. Without a doubt, it would be completely unwise to start a decisive fight with an enemy armored cruiser, having already felt a shortage of projectiles, and on the eve of a battle with another strong German detachment. In essence, Mikhail Koronatovich made the only correct decision based on the information he had. In addition, M.K. Bakhirev provided the commander of "Rurik" A.M. Pyshnova with necessary and sufficient information so that he could intercept the German detachment and impose a battle on Roon;

10. "Rurik" was able to intercept the unit "Roona" and acted stubbornly and persistently, first trying to reduce the distance with the German ships, and then let them fight, leading the "Roon" to the 60 course angle so as to continue to approach, to be able to act on the enemy all overboard. As soon as the “Roon” turned away, trying to get out of the battle, “Rurik” followed him and again turned straight to the German detachment. Unfortunately, at this moment the false news about the periscope made A.M. Pyshnova make a dodge maneuver and thereby interrupt the battle. However, after that the Rurik turned after the German ships and pursued them for some time. However, his superiority in speed was not so great (if it was at all) to quickly get close to the Roon. It could take hours, but this time "Rurik" did not have, especially since M.K. Bakhirev told A.M. Pyshnovu "Fear the approach of the enemy from the south." Therefore, after futile pursuit, the Rurik turned away and followed the cruisers of M.K. Bakhireva;

11. The poor shooting of “Rurik” (he did not get to anyone) should be attributed to the result of considerable distances of the battle and unimportant appearance (the “Roon” to which Rurik suffered fire immediately after it was recognized by the German armored cruiser did not achieve not a single hit), but also to the disfavour of the Rurik team, because because of the damage to the hull of the 1 February February 1915 g, the ship had to be repaired for half a year and was unable to conduct combat training. Perhaps there were other reasons (almost complete wear of the main caliber guns, unless they were changed during the repair);

12. The British submarine E-9 demonstrated the traditionally high level of combat training and was able to hit the Prince Adalbert armored cruiser, which hurried to aid the squadron of I. Krapf;

As we see, neither the staff officers, nor the intelligence of the Baltic Fleet, nor the special forces detachment and its commanders deserve any reproach. The headquarters in the shortest possible time developed a plan of operation, which did not proceed as it was intended, but still led to substantial losses for the Germans. The success of the E-9 cannot be attributed to the actions of the Russian ships, but Max Horton achieved it also because his submarine was sent precisely to the area from which the guard detachment left, that is, the merit of the Baltic Fleet staff officers in torpedoing Prince Adalbert Is indisputable. "Guidance" detachment M.K. Bakhirev on the forces of I. Karpf should be considered a model of actions of electronic intelligence. The commanders and crews of the special purpose detachment acted professionally and aggressively where it was not associated with unjustified, excessive risk. Maneuvering Russian ships should be considered optimal in all cases. The fact that the 1 th brigade of cruisers from the detachment of I. Karpf managed to destroy only the slowest ship, the minelayer Albatros (which, by the way, was not inferior to Russian cruisers in speed) was not caused by gaps in tactics, combat training, or lack of determination of the Russian crews. The sailors of the 1 squadron of cruisers did not achieve greater success only because they were forced to go into battle on ships of pre-Susim projects. Be at the disposal of M.K. Bakhirev modern high-speed cruisers - the result of the battle would be completely different. As for the Rurik cruiser, he, in general, also acted exemplary for a ship that had been in repair for six months before the operation.



Analysis of the decisions of Mikhail Koronatovich Bakhirev leads to the conclusion that the commander of the Russian forces did not make any mistake. All his actions were timely and correct - of course, given the amount of information that M.K. Bakhirev possessed.

But strangely enough, we cannot say anything like that about German sailors.

Without a doubt, the forces of the Kaiserlichmarines in the Baltic were small. But all the more attentively should the German admirals plan their operations! They were completely relaxed and did not expect any trick from the Russians. The only excuse for them is that the Russian fleet, with its long passivity, itself provoked them to do so, but ... “Statutes are written in blood,” and you never need to give yourself discounts - no matter how sluggish and indecisive the enemy may seem. The Germans have forgotten this truism, for which, in fact, paid.

So what do we see? Of the three armored cruisers that could take part in the cover of "Albatross", in fact only one was engaged - "Roon". The other two - "Prince Adalbert" and "Prince Heinrich" pretended to be a distant cover. The Russian battleships Slava and Tsesarevich left their bases and reached the Abo-Aland skerry position, where they were fully prepared to immediately go to sea as soon as it was needed. They carried out a distant cover for the ships of M.K. Bakhireva. And what did the armored cruisers of Rear Admiral von Hopman do, which took almost four hours just to get out of the mouth of the Vistula? You can call it whatever you like, but the phrase “distant cover” is completely inapplicable to them.

Apparently, Commodore I. Karfu couldn’t even think of Russian ships in the middle (especially the southern) part of the Baltic. His actions irrefutably indicate that the only thing he feared were the Russian cruisers patrolling at the throat of the Gulf of Finland. That is why he so easily divided his forces and sent the “Roon” with “Lübeck” to Libava shortly before being intercepted by the 1 th brigade of cruisers.

If the Germans considered the possibility of countering the Russian fleet at all seriously, they should have transferred "Prince Adalbert" and "Prince Heinrich" to Libau, where they were much closer to the mine setting, and where, if anything, they could help detachment I. Karpf. But nothing of the kind was done.

In general, the first mistake of the Germans - the absence of long-range cover, was made at the planning stage of the operation, the second - sending Roon and Lübeck with a part of the destroyers to Libava was made by I. Karpf himself. Then his detachment was intercepted by a team of cruisers M.K. Bakhireva, and ...

The German description of the battle of Augsburg, Albatross and the three destroyers with Russian cruisers is very contradictory, and this is a fact, and the following is the personal opinion of the author of this article. So, when comparing domestic and German sources, a persistent impression is created that I. Karpf simply panicked and fled from the battlefield. The destroyers, gathering first to go into a heroic and suicidal torpedo attack on where, as superior to their Russian detachment, seeing the running flagship changed their point of view and fled after him. Subsequently, the German commanders were ashamed of their actions and tried to give their actions "a bit of tactical brilliance." So, for example, according to Russian data, the “Augsburg” escaped, and then was covered with the smoke curtain of the destroyers and, for a while, ceased to be visible. Then, when the cruiser M.K. Bakhirev bypassed the veil, the "Augsburg" appeared again - shooting at the Russian cruisers, he continued to retreat and soon disappeared in the fog. But in the presentation of I. Krapf, this episode looks like this - "Augsburg" retreated, then returned and, trying to divert the attention of Russian cruisers to themselves, during the 13 minutes, fired upon "Admiral Makarov", and when he failed, he retreated again.

The only ship of the detachment of I. Karpf, who most certainly did not deserve reproach for anything, is the minelayer "Albatross". The crew heroically fought to the last and managed to bring the wounded ship to the Swedish territorial waters, thereby saving it from destruction. Of course, the Albatross was interned and did not take part in further hostilities, but was later returned to Germany.

However, the feat of the “Albatross” crew once again testified that heroism is a means of redeeming someone else’s incompetence. We have already said above that I. Karpfu should not have let go of the Roon and Lübeck, but this is not what is being discussed now. Even when confronted with a Russian squadron without the support of an armored cruiser, the Albatross, in general, did not need to die, because I. Karpf immediately called Roon to the rescue. If she came, this help, on time, and most likely the Albatross would have survived, because even alone Roon was stronger than Bayan and Admiral Makarov together, and Rurik was still too far away. But "Roon" did not come to help in time, and why? Due to the error of his navigator, who managed to get lost and bring the ship is not at all where his name was, and where he was needed. As a result, help did not come, and the Albatross was forced to throw themselves on the rocks, but what did the armored cruiser continue to do?

One of two things, either the commander of the Roon lied in his report, or common sense was not considered a quality necessary for command of Kaiserlichmarin warships. The fact that the commander of the armored cruiser decided that he was between two Russian troops was, in principle, explicable - “having lost” your location as a result of a navigator's error and finding the Russian squad “in the wrong place”, it is easy to imagine that you met with another enemy unit and that these units are at least two. But then what? “Roon”, in the opinion of his commander, was “in the grip” because the Russians seemed to be from the north and from the south. The southern Russian detachment threatened the ships of Commodore I. Karpf, the northern ones did not threaten anyone, and left for the north. And the commander of the “Roona”, whose task was, in fact, assisting I. Karpfu, instead of turning south, runs in pursuit of the northern detachment, engages with him, after some time “changes his mind” (“Well, I, because my commander needs help in the south! ”), leaves the battlefield and hurries back to the south ...



And how would you rate the actions of von Hopman, who was with his armored cruisers in Danzig and received a radiogram in 08.12, from which it was incontrovertible that the German ships were fighting at sea? Who kept the Olympic calm for 35 minutes without doing anything? But then, after another three hours (when his ships obviously did not decide anything and could not help anyone), von Gopman rushed forward without waiting for the destroyers. And even those that were taken with him, the rear admiral did not bother to put in antisubmarine escort. Without a doubt, von Hopman "reacted", only the price of this was a huge hole in the board of the "Prince Adalbert" and the death of ten people. Is it a bit too much for a line in the report?

In general, neither the plan of the German operation, nor its execution, nor the actions of the German commanders during the battle deserve approval. The bright spot against the general background looks only the heroism of the Albatross crew, and the excellent training of the Lübeck gunners, who were instantly shot down at the Rurik from their ultimate distances.

What is the result of the battle of Gotland?

As you know, the Albatross threw itself onto stones and did not take part in the war, and the torpedoed Prince Adalbert was out of action for two months. "Admiral Makarov", "Bayan" and "Rurik" received minor damage.

During the discussions of the Gotland battle, the author of this article repeatedly encountered regrets that only a minelayer had been thrown onto the stones, and not a cruiser, as M.K. Bakhirev. But in fairness it must be said: the sea war in the Baltic was in many ways a mine war, and here the importance of a high-speed mine layer is difficult to overestimate. At the same time, the Kaiser has a lot of light cruisers, and from this point of view, the loss of the Albatross for the Kaiserlichmarin was much more sensitive than the “Undine-type cruisers”, as M.K. Bakhirev.

Well, how did the Germans react to this fight?

Unfortunately, most sources do not give an answer to this question. And in vain, because otherwise statements, like those made by Patients AG in his book The Tragedy of Errors:

“I am ready to argue for anything that in the Royal Navy after such a“ victory ”all the commanders of the squadron - both the admiral and the commanders of the ships - would go to the tribunal. In fact, this “victory” did away with all the claims of the ships of the Baltic Fleet for some role in this war. The enemy didn’t take them into account and wasn’t afraid of them; their own high command didn’t count on them anymore. ”


would be hardly possible.

But back to the German command. After 9 days after the battle, 28 June 1915 g, Heinrich of Prussia presented to the Admiral Scale a report on the circumstances of the battle, based on the reports of I. Karpf and his commanders. In his report, the grand admiral in general approved the actions of the German forces, reproaching I. Karpf only with the fact that he separated the Lübeck and Roon detachments too early. Admiral G. Bachmann, chief of the Admiral Headquarters, apparently fascinated by the colorful theses of the report on “selfless support of ships” and “striving to get close to the enemy,” generally agreed with Prince Henry, but noted that, in his opinion, the torpedo attack was stopped at the moment when the Russian cruisers were already within the range of the “Whitehead mines”, and that the continuation of the torpedo attack would force the Russian cruisers to turn away, and this gave the Albatross hope for salvation. However, he agreed that in this case the ships of M.K. Bakhirev would still have been destroyed by the Albatross, even if it was in Swedish waters.

However, Kaiser Wilhelm II did not at all share such a marvelous unification of views and demanded an explanation "of the reasons that prompted both at the beginning of the operation and during its conduct to deviate from the basic principle - the concentration of forces." Naturally, von Hopman, being the commander of the German intelligence forces in the Baltic, could not give a sane answer to this question. Therefore, he set off for all the hard times, starting to paint the obsolescence of most of his ships and (attention!) The power of the Baltic Fleet, which was clearly not going to sit behind the minefields of the Gulf of Finland. “The general conduct of the struggle on the Baltic Sea is based on the assumption that the Russian fleet has very limited initiative and capacity. Without this prerequisite, the overall superiority of the forces of the Russian fleet ... ... compels us to expect retaliatory strikes at any time. ”

One can only guess what Prince Heinrich thought while reading this report by von Hopman, but, according to the author, he clutched his head. There was no doubt that the Kaiser had reached the root and, after the report by G. Bachmann, asked that the key question - why were the German forces dispersed at the right moment? And now, as an answer to this question, von Hopman proposes to take into account the “power of the Russian fleet”, but since this fleet is really powerful and no longer sits behind minefields, this all the more required the concentration of German forces! Which was not done. In fact, von Hopman wrote the following in his report: "We expected that the Russian fleet would remain passive and did nothing in case of its intervention." That is, with his report, von Hopman, one might say, “buried” himself!

Under these conditions, Prince Heinrich simply had no choice but to “take the fire on himself” - he reported to the Kaiser that he approved of the division of forces made by the junior flagship, although earlier he himself reproached him for this. But this approval of the higher authority (after all, Heinrich of Prussia wore the rank of grand admiral) removed the “thunder and lightning” from von Hopman’s head, and that was the end of the matter. According to the Admiral Headquarters, the loss of the mine layer “Albatross” was “a consequence of poor visibility and that existed until that time, however, it is fully justified, the underestimation of the enemy.”

In other words, the statement of A.G. Patients that "the enemy of the Baltic Fleet no longer took into account" is true ... exactly the opposite. In fact, it was after the battle at Gotland that the Germans came to the conclusion that they had so far underestimated the Russians, and they did it in vain.

Immediately after the battle, the Admiralstaff transferred the light cruiser Bremen and the newest destroyer V-99 to the Baltic (oddly enough, both of them died in the same 1915 year, the first on mines, the second - under the fire of Novik). Some two days after the battle, 21 June 1915, the Kaiser signed an order to transfer to the Baltic:

1. The 4 th battleships squadron - seven battleships of the Braunschweig and Wittelsbach types, commanded by Vice Admiral Schmidt;

2. The destroyers' 8 fleet - eleven pennants commanded by frigatette captain Hundertmark;

3. Two submarines.

The head of the Admiral Head reported the state secretary of the imperial maritime administration (that is, the minister of the sea) Tirpitz about these measures to the state:

"The Baltic Sea forces, after the collapse of Prince Adalbert, which has a great moral significance, the loss of the Albatross, must be strengthened so that they can continue the old line of warfare, which has the goal of discouraging the Russians from hunting for active actions in our waters to achieve this as much success as possible ... The lingering nature of military actions against Russia may require the final abandonment in the Baltic Sea of ​​part or all of the reinforcements now sent there. ”


In other words, the battle at Gotland, which took place on 19 on June 1915, or “The disgrace at the island of Gotland” (according to some of our historians and publicists) entailed a complete change of ideas about the necessary workout of forces in the Baltic. Before the battle at Gotland, it was believed that the Kaiserlhmarine tasks here could be performed by three armored cruisers. After the battle, the Germans found it necessary to use seven squadron battleships and two armored cruisers to solve the same tasks. Of course, such a change in attitude towards the Russian Baltic Fleet was infinitely far from “no longer taken into account.”

And what about von Gopman? Formally, he retained his post, but now he was directly subordinate to Vice Admiral Schmidt, commander of the 4 squadron of battleships. As far as the author knows (but this is inaccurate), von Hopman never again held posts implying independent leadership of the fleet units.

And the last. As we said earlier, the main purpose of the raid on Memel was to influence the public opinion of Germany on public opinion. The shelling did not take place, but information about the appearance of Russian cruisers in the southern Baltic and the death of the Albatross received wide publicity — for example, on June 10 (the day after the battle) the Revel newspapers published a telegram from Stockholm about the battle at Gotland. According to numerous intelligence reports, the death of the minelayer made a huge impression on the public circles of Germany, and, in fact, Admiral G. Bachmann spoke of her as having "great moral value." Thus, in this sense, the Russian operation ended in complete success.

Thank you for attention!
Author:
Articles from this series:
Gotland bout 19 June 1915 g. Part of 1
Gotland bout 19 June 1915 g. Part of 2
Gotland bout 19 June 1915 g. Part of 3. Cruisers opened fire
Gotland bout 19 June 1915 g. Part of 4. Carfat Retreat
Gotland bout 19 June 1915 g. Part of 5. How to shoot the Russian commanders
Gotland bout 19 June 1915 g. Part of 6. Shooting with Roon
Gotland bout 19 June 1915 g. Part of 7. "Rurik" enters the fight
Gotland bout 19 June 1915 g. Part of 8. Submarines!
65 comments
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  1. Horseman without a head
    Horseman without a head 21 May 2018 05: 47
    +18
    As I understand it, Russian forces acted harmoniously and competently
    It’s complicated, of course, in real time to properly process information, to take rights. decision. But - at the height, and this is super, speaks of the high qualifications of our commanders - in this case, Baltic Fleet officers.
    1. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 22 May 2018 12: 25
      0
      Quote: The Headless Horseman
      As I understand it, Russian forces acted harmoniously and competently
      It’s complicated, of course, in real time to properly process information, to take rights. decision. But - at the height, and this is super, speaks of the high qualifications of our commanders - in this case, Baltic Fleet officers.


      If they performed 1-2 operations per month, it could be described as such.
      Taking advantage of one situation when the main forces of the fleet will go to the bases for viewing is a rare exception, unfortunately not fully realized.

      And due to the fact that they acted in military operations not often, experience and initiative are not comparable with the English experience of the cruising war. Against the backdrop of the British - the actions of Russian cruisers look pretty pale.
  2. pin_code
    pin_code 21 May 2018 05: 48
    +5
    Thanks to Andrey for a great cycle!
    1. igordok
      igordok 21 May 2018 06: 06
      +7
      Thanks for the excellent series of articles. The only thing is that the captions to the illustrations are not superfluous.
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 21 May 2018 06: 40
        +2
        Quote: igordok
        The only thing is that the captions to the illustrations are not superfluous.

        For someone who is more or less in the subject of the history of the Navy of both Russia and other countries, knowledge of ships of at least the most basic types at that time (armadillos, battleships, cruisers of all stripes) is implied wink hi
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 22 May 2018 17: 16
          +2
          Quote: Rurikovich
          For someone who is more or less in the subject of the history of the Navy of both Russia and other countries, knowledge of ships of at least the most basic types at that time (armadillos, battleships, cruisers of all stripes) is implied

          Ahem ... everything would be fine, but without a hitch to distinguish "Oleg" from "Bogatyr", "Bayan" from "Admiral Makarov" or "Andrew the First-Called" from "Emperor Paul I" even those who more or less in the subject of the history of the Navyare unlikely to be able to. We'll have to go into the literature and look for subtle differences - and then look for them in the available photo.
          1. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 22 May 2018 17: 37
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            but offhand to distinguish “Oleg” from “Athlete”

            Yes, I didn’t mean it, but that I would at least understand what type it belongs to (any is better for clarity). And I am silent about the classes - the battleship from the cruiser, I think, can be distinguished.
            Therefore, the author does not sign the photo, initially assuming that the participants in that battle are definable smile hi
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 22 May 2018 18: 27
              +1
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Yes, I didn’t mean it, but that I would at least understand what type it belongs to (any is better for clarity).

              Yes, that’s what I understood. smile
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Therefore, the author does not sign the photo, initially assuming that the participants in that battle are definable

              And here is an ambush - for from the Russian side 2 BrKR of the same type (in the first approximation) and 2 of the same BKKR participated in the battle. smile
              For example, in the first photo is “Oleg” or “Athlete”?
              1. Rurikovich
                Rurikovich 22 May 2018 18: 44
                +1
                Quote: Alexey RA
                For example, in the first photo is “Oleg” or “Athlete”?

                The Bogatyr, 1910 wink
                Among the many books on the shelves is the "Cruiser" Ochakov "Melnikov. There is this photo hi feel
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 22 May 2018 18: 47
                  +1
                  Voooot. And if there was a signature under the photo, you would not have to go into a book or on the Wunderwaffe. smile
                  1. Rurikovich
                    Rurikovich 22 May 2018 18: 53
                    0
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    I would not have to climb into a book or at the Wunderwaffe. smile

                    Alexey, believe me, it is EXACTLY this photo that I know by heart, for I have read a book since childhood 5 or 6 times ... Yes The only thing, if you want, I can go off to see on which page. wink And he didn’t even open it hi , for the black balls on the yards fit tightly in memory drinks
              2. Rurikovich
                Rurikovich 22 May 2018 18: 49
                0
                Quote: Alexey RA
                And here is an ambush - for from the Russian side 2 BrKR of the same type (in the first approximation) and 2 of the same BKKR participated in the battle.

                For me, the cruiser type itself is more important here, because knowing it, you can be guided by the performance characteristics to perceive the battle picture. Although there may be differences even among ships of the same type, especially after modernization, this was not the case with this battle. Therefore, it is not so important who in the photo is “Oleg” or “Bogatyr”, “Bayan” or “Makarov”, “Roon” or “York” request
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 23 May 2018 19: 30
                  +1
                  Quote: Rurikovich
                  For me, the cruiser type itself is more important here, because knowing it, you can be guided by the performance characteristics for the perception of the battle picture.

                  Well, if you take the "TTX in the first approximation", then yes - here you are right.
                  Chihiks ... in the order of tediousness - during the war, the RIF armored decks ran great in armament. The same "sleepy goddesses" differed from each other not only in quantity, but in caliber of guns, and the "heroes" did not lag behind them. smile
                  1. Rurikovich
                    Rurikovich 23 May 2018 22: 00
                    0
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    The same "sleepy goddesses" differed from each other not only in quantity, but even in caliber of guns, and the "heroes" did not lag behind them

                    I absolutely agree with you Yes But this is from the fact that it comes to the understanding that change is not only “bad” ... The same pair “Russia” - “Stormbreaker” was so modernized by the 17th year that they would be in such a configuration in the battle on August 1 1904, then Kamimura would have decently grabbed wink
        2. Alex
          Alex 23 May 2018 00: 06
          +1
          Quote: Rurikovich
          implies knowledge of ships of at least basic types

          Yes, yes, but there are newbies on the site as well.
  3. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 21 May 2018 06: 54
    +6
    Article plus! hi
    Now that all the actions are described in sufficient detail, I think the number of those who unconditionally believe historians with their "true" statements regarding this event will decrease.
    From myself, I’ll just add that the Germans ’“ reinforcement ”of forces in the Baltic after the Gotland battle by the ancient battleships looks like only paper reinforcement. Therefore, my personal opinion is that the Baltic was still a secondary theater for the Germans. And if the Germans were seriously afraid for their strength (at least from the actions of the cruisers), then the appearance of at least Blucher would be a real strengthening of forces. And since this did not happen, and the Germans were absolutely sure of the impossibility of the appearance of Russian dreadnoughts west of the TsMAP, then in my opinion, everything remained as it was ...
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 21 May 2018 09: 45
      +3
      Therefore, my personal opinion is that the Baltic was still a secondary theater for the Germans

      It goes without saying.
      a real strengthening of forces would be the appearance of at least Blucher.

      But this would be the only reasonable use of it, since the Baltic was the only place where the cruiser named after Marshal Sine ... oh feel could run away from all who are stronger and catch up with all who are weaker.
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      21 May 2018 10: 59
      +3
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Now that all the actions are described in sufficient detail, I think the number of those who unconditionally believe historians with their "true" statements regarding this event will decrease.

      Let's hope:))))
      Quote: Rurikovich
      On my own behalf, I will only add that the "strengthening" by the Germans of the forces in the Baltic after the Gotland battle by the ancient battleships looks only as an increase on paper.

      Yes, I would not say. 7 armadillos are still 7 armadillos, and 11 modern destroyers are power.
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Therefore, my personal opinion is that the Baltic was still a secondary theater for the Germans

      Of course:)
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 21 May 2018 19: 11
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        and 11 modern destroyers is a force.

        Andrei hi 8th flotilla no longer consisted of modern types wink They were destroyers of 530-580 tons, with 31-34 travel knots and armaments from 1-88mm and 3-52mm to 2 - 88-mm guns (the options ranged from 30 caliber to 45 caliber) and 3x1 ta .
        I think that 20 Finn-class destroyers at the start of the war, armed with 2 - 102mm cannons, could well hang the 8th flotilla. The only thing we lost in was speed - 25 standard knots are no longer camille in the open sea. But it was enough for defensive actions. Again, this is a purely external view hi
  4. kvs207
    kvs207 21 May 2018 07: 49
    +4
    Quote: Rurikovich
    On my own behalf, I will only add that the "strengthening" by the Germans of the forces in the Baltic after the Gotland battle by the ancient battleships looks only as an increase on paper. Therefore, my personal opinion is that the Baltic was still a secondary theater for the Germans.

    7 armadillos, this is 7 armadillos)))
    Against Tsesarevich with Glory, more than enough. All, more or less strong and new ships, were carefully guarded by the command.
    The article, of course, +, the author - respect.
    We are waiting for the analysis of the battle of the Varangian.
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 21 May 2018 18: 20
      0
      Quote: kvs207
      7 armadillos, this is 7 armadillos)))

      Of these, only Braunschweig and Alsace with 280 mm artillery, the remaining 5 of the Wittelsbach type with 240 mm main guns hi
      1. arturpraetor
        arturpraetor 21 May 2018 18: 33
        +2
        Quote: Rurikovich
        the rest 5 type "Wittelsbach" with 240-mm GK

        I will add - with very poor 240-mm guns, whose shells were slightly heavier than the usual eight-inch shells. France and Austria-Hungary have guns of this caliber much more sane. So in fact, the Wittelsbachs are very moderate class II EDBs with weak impact capabilities. Germany saved on the caliber of guns request Although the “Kaisers”, I must say, are very, very cute ...
        1. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 21 May 2018 18: 46
          0
          Quote: arturpraetor
          with very poor 240mm cannons, whose shells were slightly heavier than conventional eight-inch cannons.

          Quote: arturpraetor
          So in fact, the Wittelsbachs are very moderate class II EDBs with weak impact capabilities.

          Well, the Germans designed and built their ships according to their views on what the EDB should be Yes Therefore, it is not surprising that the appearance of 240mm caliber and strong medium artillery in the hope of fighting at relatively close distances, where the rate of fire would do its job. By the way, the conditions of the Baltic and North Sea have such a conclusion.
          So the fact that the Germans had such armadillos at the beginning of the century is the problem of the Germans. Well, steel bars as armor-piercing shells are another weapon request
          Quote: arturpraetor
          Germany saved on the caliber of guns

          Yes, rather admirals reappeared with their concepts smile hi
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 22 May 2018 09: 06
            +1
            Therefore, the appearance of the 240mm caliber is not surprising

            This is not the only point. Almost the same cannon on the Austrian armadillos fired quite sane 229 kg shells, against the German 140 kg.
  5. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 21 May 2018 09: 47
    +3
    Respected colleague Andrei, respect for an interesting series of articles, and two more in the hope of new wink
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      21 May 2018 11: 34
      0
      Greetings, dear Ivan!
      Yesterday I went to the alternative - as I understand it, the publisher didn’t answer anything about Alyosha?
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 21 May 2018 13: 13
        0
        Me too.
        They are silent in the publishing house, but how are you?
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          21 May 2018 13: 50
          0
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          They are silent in the publishing house, but how are you?

          The same nonsense - they are silent as the skull of a mammoth. Today or tomorrow I’ll send it back to EKSMO, it’s like a well-known company .... I will tell you later how and what :)
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 21 May 2018 13: 54
            0
            Be sure to write. here some ends drew ...
  6. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 21 May 2018 11: 57
    +4
    Thanks to the author.
    Intersno, fresh, logical, reasoned. Very high quality material, in my opinion. The author demonstrates a good knowledge of the texture, independence and soundness of the estimates, the ability to generalize and build internally consistent logical structures, properly supporting them with arguments.
    Thanks again. We are waiting for new materials
    hi
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      21 May 2018 13: 50
      +2
      And thank you for your kind words! hi drinks
  7. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 21 May 2018 22: 43
    +2
    Analysis of the decisions of Mikhail Koronatovich Bakhirev leads to the conclusion that the commander of the Russian forces did not make any mistake. All his actions were timely and correct - of course, given the amount of information that M.K. Bakhirev possessed.

    The author has prepared, as always, a very high-quality series of articles. Detailed and detailed. The more surprising is the sudden conclusion from the stated extensive, high-quality material. Frankly, up to this point, the material, paragraph by paragraph, has consistently confirmed the very quotation of Patients presented by the author in the first article of the cycle.

    Let us once again briefly outline the "achievements" of Mr. Bakhirev:

    0. It doesn’t come up in the cycle, but the question revolves around the language - how well were the borders of the German minefields explored in the region of both targets? Or, as usual, they didn’t even “think”?

    1. Admiral Bahirev completely avoided planning and direct preparation of the operation. To discuss the joint movement in the ranks, the rendezvous points, the order of actions in battle? No .. this is not patsansky! We will do everything as usual, only at random!

    2. As a consequence of paragraph 1, the admiral lost half of the squad immediately, barely went to sea. What a surprise! There are fogs in the Baltic!

    3. In addition to successfully lost ships, Bahirev immediately abandoned the VI destroyer division. Why does he need big destroyers? (640t., 27uz., 2x102mm) Protection from submarines, reconnaissance of the fairway, catch and break light enemy ships? No .. it's not so bad! We’d better shy away from each stick with the entire squadron.

    4. Having spoken into the sea for almost a day, the port of Memel in the Baltic Sea was never found. Fog!

    5. No measures were taken to locate and reconnect lost ships.

    6. Having spat on the order, he went to the base, but then he received a tip on the enemy’s light forces. Having stumbled upon the Germans, he did not carry out any distinct battle control. As a result of the mess in the organization of the battle, most of the German ships successfully escaped. The whole squadron shoots at the slowest and smallest minzag for a long time and without success.

    7. Despite the huge consumption of ammunition, almost half of the squadron’s ammunition, according to Bahirev, the tiny minzag was never sunk. Rushed ashore. The truth is still hit.

    8. During the battle, he again lost his squad and could not connect with Rurik who had contacted.

    9. Having discovered Roon, suddenly appeared from the fog, he immediately took to flight, announcing the air with cries for help. Moreover, despite the significant superiority over the enemy, he didn’t not only attack him, but didn’t even try to throw off the move, to at least support the trailing cruiser of his squadron with fire, leaving him alone to fight off Roon’s fire.

    10. After Roon's refusal to pursue, he immediately went to the base, immediately forgetting about Rurik who himself called for help. As before, he did not try to join forces or at least assemble his squad.

    11. Having heard the shooting in the direction of Rurik (south-west), despite the alleged fear of the presence of a strong armored detachment, he did not try to help Rurik, but turned somewhere south, to the area between the battle and his base. So sneak and reached the base without being interested in the fate of abandoned ships.

    And on the basis of these materials, the author suddenly concludes that Admiral Bakhirev's flawless actions in the Gotland battle. :)

    By the way, the abundance of carefully embellished allusions to some sort of constant "cowardice" of the Germans draws attention. I guess that it is necessary to divert the attention of readers from the very unsightly behavior of the Russian commanders. However, it is worth recalling that the same Karpf quickly connected with Roon by turning his cruiser ON the sounds of shooting. It is easy to compare and notice that a certain Admiral Bahirev in this battle always turned away from the sounds of shooting and battle. After that, it’s even indecent to dispute the findings of the Patients.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      22 May 2018 00: 49
      +4
      Quote: Saxahorse
      The cycle does not come up, but the question revolves around the language - how well were the borders of the German minefields explored in the region of both targets? Or, as usual, they didn’t even “think”?

      Both, which ones? :))) If you are about Memel and Kohlberg, I don’t have exact data on this subject, but Neyfarvasser’s everything was explored for sure.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Admiral Bahirev completely avoided planning and direct preparation of the operation. To discuss the joint movement in the ranks, the rendezvous points, the order of actions in battle? No .. this is not patsansky! We will do everything as usual, only at random!

      You know, this is an honest poklep :)))) The operation was developed by the headquarters of the Baltic Fleet, and Bahirev had nothing to do with the plan of operation. He is the performer, not the creator of the operation. The joint movement in the ranks, of course, was agreed (the squadron was on the warrant), the order of operations in the battle - what battle? With whom? :)))))) With the suddenly formed squadron of battleships Hochzeflotte? With an armed scow? Or do you want Bahirev for all occasions to write a ten-volume tactic? :)))
      About points rendezvous - amused. Can you imagine the size of the number error in the fog?
      Quote: Saxahorse
      As a result of paragraph 1, the admiral lost half of the detachment immediately, barely went to sea. What a surprise! There are fogs in the Baltic!

      Firstly, by no means "as soon as he went to sea." And secondly, I still apologize, but what is Bahirev’s fault here? He, if anything, commanded the 1st brigade of cruisers and was responsible, inter alia, for fusion. Well, nobody from the 1st brigade got lost. But “Rurik” and “Novik” are given forces that were not part of the 1st brigade, how can Bahirev be responsible for them?
      Quote: Saxahorse
      In addition to successfully lost ships, Bahirev immediately abandoned the VI destroyer division. Why does he need big destroyers? (640t., 27uz., 2x102mm)

      What are 27 knots? :)))) They gave 25 to the fleet for delivery, and to the described events - 22 knots. That is why (the bearers were more than 3 hours late) Bakhirev sent them home - it was necessary either to disrupt the operation, waiting for the 6th division, or ... not to disrupt.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Protection from submarines, reconnaissance of the fairway, catching up and tearing light enemy ships?

      Actually, the 6th division is a suitcase without a handle.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      After hanging out at sea for almost a day, the port of Memel in the Baltic Sea was never found. Fog!

      ??? Sorry, but what is this ... okay, so far let’s forget for clarity. Bahirev needed not to FIND the port of Memel, but to SHOT it. And for this, generally speaking, you need to see where you are shooting (Russian officers did not want to shoot at the squares). Therefore, deepening into the fog, and realizing that he would not see a damn when he went to Memel, Bahirev suffered shelling from the evening of the 18th to the morning of the 19th and turned to Gotland for observation.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      No measures were taken to locate and reconnect lost ships.

      Suggest similar measures.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Spitting on the order went to the base

      Did you read a series of articles? :))))) Bahirev didn’t go to any base, the message about the German detachment came when he went to shell Memel.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Having stumbled upon the Germans, he did not carry out any distinct battle control. As a result of the mess in the organization of the battle, most of the German ships successfully escaped.

      (shrugging) No comment. I have devoted several articles to the battle of the squadron with schemes and timing. And all this, alas, turned out to be past eyes and ears. Moreover, what is interesting - on the merits of the matter, I did not hear any comments and suggestions from you. And now - please shave :))))
      However, I have no doubt that if you were in the cabin of the Admiral Makarov with its front door 21 knots, you would have easily caught up and defeated the 27-node German cruiser. At 5 miles visibility, yes.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Despite the huge consumption of ammunition, almost half of the squadron’s ammunition, according to Bakhirev, the tiny minzag was never sunk

      % of hits I cited. What doesn’t suit Russian gunners in shooting? The fact that the total ammunition of the 203-mm shells "Bayan" and "Makarov" roughly corresponded to that of 1 German armored personnel carrier? Sorry, Bahirev had to fight this
      Quote: Saxahorse
      During the battle, he again lost his squad and was unable to connect with Rurik who had contacted.

      What detachment did he lose? :))))) The 1st brigade was not taken aback, there was no such case. But Rurik was too far away and couldn’t keep up with Bakhirev, who was walking at 20 knots in the opposite direction from Rurik.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Finding Roon suddenly appearing from the fog, he immediately took to flight, announcing the broadcast with cries for help.

      There are no words. He didn’t “take flight,” but continued to move where he had followed earlier, i.e. to the north
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Moreover, despite significant superiority over the enemy

      Roon was stronger than Makarov and Bayan combined
      Quote: Saxahorse
      but he didn’t even try to throw off the move so that at least fire would support the backward cruiser of his squadron

      Did Bayan need this? Bakhirev’s everything was in full view, Bayan maneuvered and he had no problems.
      At the same time, I gave a whole set of reasons why Bahirev did so, and not otherwise. He actually was waiting for a battle with a large detachment of Germans, if that. Climbing in these conditions "in a decisive battle" with Roon is utter stupidity. You can’t object to this, therefore, you simply ignore this argument.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      immediately forgetting about Rurik who himself called for help

      Quite the contrary, he gave Rurik the necessary clarifications and the ability to intercept Roon
      Quote: Saxahorse
      I still didn’t try to join forces or at least gather my squad

      He just joined forces with 2 EDB cover in order to be able to fight with a large German detachment. Why would he team up with Rurik?
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Hearing the shooting in the direction of Rurik (south-west), despite the alleged fear of the presence of a strong armored detachment, he did not try to help Rurik, but turned somewhere south, to the area between the battle and his base.

      Please re-read the section on Bahirev’s actions after Roon’s departure. especially amused "turned somewhere south between the battle and the base." You are even lazy to look at the map.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      By the way, the abundance of carefully embellished allusions to some sort of constant "cowardice" of the Germans draws attention.

      Sagging :)))))) "Diligently embellished", you must :))))) Well, object to the arguments I have cited for at least one episode of "heroism" of I. Karpf :)))))
      Quote: Saxahorse
      However, it is worth recalling that the same Karpf quickly connected with Roon by turning his cruiser ON the sounds of shooting. It is easy to compare and notice that a certain Admiral Bakhirev always turned from the sounds of shooting and battle in this battle

      Given the fact that of their three episodes of firefight, Bahirev participated in two, and after the start of the shooting, Rurik turned to the sound of shots and went behind the ron for a while, the value of your “criticism” can hardly be underestimated hi
      Quote: Saxahorse
      After that, it’s even indecent to dispute the findings of the Patients.

      There is only one conclusion - you have read the Patients. The cycle of my articles - no
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 22 May 2018 23: 48
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        About points rendezvous - amused. Can you imagine the size of the number error in the fog?

        Indeed, it’s ridiculous to even imagine that Admiral Bakhirev knows what will be determined by coastal landmarks. But there was probably someone to tell, because at 23:35 “Makarov” approached Father Gotland and decided on the Famuden lighthouse. It is amazing but true that it is customary to pronounce rendezvous points just for such cases.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And secondly, I still apologize, but what is Bahirev’s fault here? He, if anything, commanded the 1st brigade of cruisers and was responsible, inter alia, for fusion. Well, nobody from the 1st brigade got lost. But “Rurik” and “Novik” are given forces that were not part of the 1st brigade, how can Bahirev be responsible for them?

        Those. Do you agree that Admiral Bakhirev evaded managing the squad of ships entrusted to him?

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Bahirev didn’t go to any base, the message about the German detachment came when he went to shell Memel.

        You made a historic discovery. The order to withdraw to the Gulf of Finland and course 10 was given at 3:00. A telegram about light German forces was received by Bakhirev at 4:00. The decision to intercept and change of course happened at 6:15. So just as I said .. first we’ll spit on the order, and then, after a couple of hours, the decision to shoot at least someone. Speaking of the fact that he lost Rurik, our hero Bakhirev also found out only somewhere at 3:00, six hours later :)

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        There are no words. He didn’t “take flight,” but continued to move where he had followed earlier, i.e. to the north

        Sure sure. Continued an energetic offensive towards the rear! :)

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Roon was stronger than Makarov and Bayan combined

        It is more than amusing to hear this from the author known for thoroughness and meticulousness in the description of weapons. “Makarov”, “Bayan”, “Athlete”, “Oleg” - 4x8 “plus 40x6” is twice as weak as the old man “Roon” with his 4x8 and 10x6.

        Oh yes! I forgot to take into account the personal buff of Admiral Bahirev! Minus 80% of the firepower of any squadron he commands.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Did Bayan need this? Bakhirev’s everything was in full view, Bayan maneuvered and he had no problems.

        Come on! The fighting comrade is being beaten with eight inches but this is not a problem, he is lucky. In total, they hit it only once as it should. If you think only about your own skin, then there really are no reasons for interference. Anyway, shoot at the enemy is some kind of bad man! :)

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        He just joined forces with 2 EDB cover in order to be able to fight with a large German detachment. Why would he team up with Rurik?

        Well, for example, to jointly confront a large German squad? What again is not .. no need? Oh yes! Let Rurik unscrew himself. Moveton shoot the Germans.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Please re-read the section on Bahirev’s actions after Roon’s departure. especially amused "turned somewhere south between the battle and the base"

        Roon retreated 180, after meeting with Rurik turned right to the south-west. Bahirev all these 40 minutes scuttled off course 40, to the north-east. Turning south (on course 180) is completely not enough to get closer to Rurik. And the admiral turned only to send another valuable advice on the radio. “Beware of the enemy from the south” After which our hero Bahirev immediately turned back to the northeast and spurred the horses.

        Earlier it was written that in one episode with the flight from Roon abandoned by Bayan and Rurik in the British fleet, such admirals are put to the wall. And they’re doing it right. So I'm sorry, but I’m not ready to share your enthusiasm with the actions of Admiral Bahirev. And I really hope that in our today's Russian fleet there are no followers of this "hero".
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          23 May 2018 01: 27
          +2
          You know, if you want to petrosyan - I dare not interfere. I don’t understand why in this topic, but oh well.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Indeed, it’s ridiculous to even imagine that Admiral Bakhirev knows what will be determined by coastal landmarks.

          Well funny, so laugh, they say prolongs life. I also laugh - is it generally what kind of talent one must have in order to offer a rendezvous point for shelling Memel off the island of Gotland? :))) No, well, seriously? :))))
          That is, in your opinion, Bahirev, going out to the operation, first had to assume that there would be such a strong fog in her area that no one could see it. OK, no question, he could have guessed. Then he had to somehow guess in a magical way that at some specific point of the island of Gotland at some specific time this fog would not. In your opinion, Bakhirev has a direct connection with a satellite photographing the surface of the Baltic Sea in one pocket, and old Hottabych in another, so he must know at what point in time where in Gotland fog will be and what will not. And at this point he had to appoint a rendezvous.
          You see, if you indulged less in Petrosyanism and more in pondering what you were writing, then you might have guessed that, of course, a rendezvous point could be assigned somewhere off the coast. But only if there is fog, then the point from this point will be zero, zero and xp .. en along because it will be possible to come to this point only by reckoning, it will be possible to find out that you came to the point only by reckoning, and find out in advance, where the fog will be, and where not, it is impossible.
          You know that Bahirev, turning from Memel, went to Gotland and made an observation. But this was bad luck - Bahirev himself could not at all be sure that he would succeed, because if there were the same fog there - no observation would have happened.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          It is amazing but true that it is customary to pronounce rendezvous points just for such cases.

          Amazingly, but a fact, sometimes it’s better to think first, and then take up the keyboard.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Those. Do you agree that Admiral Bakhirev evaded managing the squad of ships entrusted to him?

          Which of my words is not clear to you? What do you see of “evasion” of Bakhirev from command of the detachment? Just ask you, think twice before answering - your epic blooper with points rendezvous is more than enough for one discussion
          Quote: Saxahorse
          You made a historic discovery. The order to withdraw to the Gulf of Finland and course 10 was given at 3:00. A telegram about light German forces was received by Bakhirev at 4:00. The decision to intercept and change of course happened at 6:15.

          M-yes, I take my words back. Against the background of the fact that you are now ... how could I put it mildly? Well, let's say neutral - print, the previous pearl is not a mistake, but a small and insignificant mistake. laughing
          So, if there is some kind of “discovery”, then it consists in the fact that you do not know the material from the word “completely”. I don’t know how historical this discovery is, as for me, you overestimate yourself somewhat.
          So, the first telegram, or rather, the first TWO telegrams received by Bahirev indicating the meeting place of the German cruisers, he received at 01.45.
          Do you at least understand what your point of view is, if I may say so, “point of view” if you are not able to learn even the time of the main events? You make verdicts based on your own fantasies, which have nothing to do with reality.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Speaking of the fact that he lost Rurik, our hero Bakhirev also found out only somewhere at 3:00, six hours later :)

          I don’t know what to say. Generally speaking, at 03.00 Bahirev STOPED the search for Rurik.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          It is more than amusing to hear this from the author known for thoroughness and meticulousness in the description of weapons. "Makarov", "Bayan", "Athlete", "Oleg"

          Apparently, even the comment text is too complicated for you. Try again - I wrote
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Roon was stronger than Makarov and Bayan combined

          What does Bogatyr and Oleg have to do with it? Where did Lubeck go with the destroyers, if you decided to count everyone? Somewhere nearby Augsburg and still destroyers shy away, this is also nonsense, in your opinion. And, finally, the most important thing that you are carefully avoiding - Bahirev believed that in the north a strong German detachment. Why did he have to engage in battle with Roon with his comrades?
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Oh yes! I forgot to take into account the personal buff of Admiral Bahirev! Minus 80% of the firepower of any squadron he commands.

          You obviously replayed computer games.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Come on! The fighting comrade is being beaten with eight inches but this is not a problem, he is lucky. In total, they hit it only once as it should. If you think only about your own skin, then there really are no reasons for intervention

          This is not a problem, the comrade answers and ends up in Roon (as seen from Bakhirev’s ships), and on him - one hit, which is uncritical. And this is the fifth time I ask, what about the northern German unit? laughing
          How else can I ask? Maybe highlight fatty so that it catches your eye? Your point of view would have the right to life only in one case - if Bahirev knew that they were alone at sea, and there was no strong German detachment in the north. But Bahirev thought a little differently, the intelligence reported to him, which had brought him to Augsburg before, so there was no reason not to believe her.
          So answer a simple question? Or will you continue to petrosyan?
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Well, for example, to jointly confront a large German squad?

          It was necessary to confront together not with Rurik, who was following Bakhirev, but with armadillos. The northern detachment did not threaten Rurik directly, and would not have threatened at all if the 1st brigade had been united with Slava and the Tsesarevich. So yes - Rurik could be released to hunt a little, but not for long and not far, because the German detachment could go anywhere.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Roon retreated 180, after meeting with Rurik turned right to the south-west. Bahirev all these 40 minutes scuttled off course 40, to the north-east. Turning south (on course 180) is completely not enough to get closer to Rurik

          Oh, mine gott ... Hmmm. Strong advice - try re-reading the description of this episode with a card in your hands again
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Earlier it was written that in one episode with an escape from Roon abandoned by Bayan and Rurik

          Already Bayan turned out to be abandoned :)))) Go crazy
        2. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 23 May 2018 09: 48
          +3
          Earlier it was written that in one episode with the flight from Roon abandoned by Bayan and Rurik in the British fleet, such admirals are put to the wall.

          excuse me, but is it possible set to the wall for a similar episode of the British admiral?
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 27 May 2018 18: 29
            0
            Sorry to miss the question. If offhand, then Admiral John Bing. Shot March 14.03.1757, XNUMX, following the results of the battle for Minorca. For passivity. :)

            Well, the classics must be remembered of course! One-legged Admiral John Benbow! Three captains of his squadron were shot for abandoning their admiral in his last battle, 19.08.1702.
    2. Niko
      Niko 29 October 2019 14: 41
      0
      Thank you. Good comment.
  8. Catfish
    Catfish 22 May 2018 00: 31
    +3
    Saxahorse / quote /: "By the way, there is an abundance of painstakingly embellished allusions to some kind of constant" cowardice "of the Germans. I guess that we must somehow divert the attention of readers from the very unsightly behavior of the Russian commanders. However, it is worth recalling that the same Karpf quickly connected with Roon turned his cruiser ON to the sounds of shooting. It is easy to compare and notice that a certain Admiral Bahirev always turned away FROM the sounds of shooting and battle. After that, it’s even indecent to dispute the conclusions of the Patients. "

    Sorry generously, but I can not disagree with the foregoing. What "complete success" does the distinguished author speak of? So many forces involved, and as a result ... a torn mine layer. And he was not drowned. At least for the money it was worth the mass of shells that were practically thrown into the wind. And like a spit in the face - the undoubted success of the Englishman.
    Sorry, I read all the articles with great interest, but the conclusion was more than strange. But the author still thanks for the work done. hi
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      22 May 2018 09: 46
      +1
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Sorry generously, but I can not disagree with the foregoing.

      Everyone decides for himself, I gave a description of the battle. If you prefer to consider that Bahirev turned away from the sounds of shooting - this is your right enshrined in the Constitution of the Russian Federation :))))) Apparently you have some unique sources that are unknown to me :)))))
      Quote: Sea Cat
      What "complete success" does the distinguished author speak of? So many forces involved, and as a result ... a torn mine layer.

      Well, let's enjoy the victory of the British in the Helgoland Bay - 5 battleships, 8 light cruisers, 33 destroyers, 8 submarines. The result - 3 sunk KRL (one of which is ancient Ariadne, in size and combat power is very similar to Albatross) and 1 EM.
      If you fight on low-speed ships against high-speed ones - alas, it’s strange to expect a big result
  9. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer 22 May 2018 12: 11
    +4
    Excellent analysis of available sources of information.
    I agree with everything except the assessment of the action of "Rurik":
    As for the cruiser "Rurik", then, in general, it also acted exemplarily for the ship, which had been under repair for six months before the operation.


    It’s like in a tank biathlon (and the naval operation of a large warship is an order of magnitude more responsible measure) - to justify the gunner who has never hit the target: - “He was worried and was sick for half a year - but the guy tried ...” .
    For a ship of this rank, it’s babble to get hits from a light cruiser and not get any of its ...

    Rurik is like a “heavyweight boxer”, grabbing a cradle from his punks in the gateway: - “While I kept the long one and wanted to give it to the vat, the small one gave me an eye and ran away, and the long one escaped and I did not catch up with him ..." So - nothing serious bruise under the eye, but insulting how ... - and therefore a disgrace that the uncoordinated actions of Rurik did not lead to the routed defeat of the German squadron, how it could happen, as planned.
    But military success is also something - someone turns out to be more proactive and ready for battle and shows himself in battle, while someone mumbles excuses for the Kaiser :)
    Which is very convincingly shown by a respected author.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      22 May 2018 19: 02
      +2
      Greetings, dear Dmitry!
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      I agree with everything except the assessment of the action of "Rurik":

      As I have said many times, my business is to present a point of view on the question, and whether or not to agree with it or not is the business of respected readers.
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      For a ship of this rank, it’s babble to get hits from a light cruiser and not get any of its ...

      You are concentrating on the quality of the shooting, but let me say that Rurik was primarily accused of turning away from the submarines and leaving the battle, that is, it seemed to many that he simply left without trying to pursue the enemy, but this is not so.
      As for the quality of the shooting - yes, it's a pity, but the fact is that:
      1) To shoot in 5 minutes - at that distance - the task is VERY non-trivial even for heavy all-big-gan ships equipped with much more advanced FCS than Rurik had. Rurik could not, but after six months of repairs this is not surprising. Strictly speaking, even without repairs it would not be surprising.
      2) Rurik, probably, could achieve hits if he continued to concentrate fire on Lubeck. But! Continuing to fire at the KRL while the BRKR is coming at you is a bit unusual. I would say that not to shoot at the Roon, but to continue to peck at Lubeck without afterthought is practically unrealistic.
      But, I repeat, you are free in your opinions. hi
      By the way, today on the main page there is an article about average caliber in Tsushima, I will be glad to see you there! drinks
      1. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer 23 May 2018 14: 29
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        You are concentrating on the quality of the shooting, but let me say that Rurik was primarily accused of turning away from the submarines and leaving the battle, that is, it seemed to many that he simply left without trying to pursue the enemy, but this is not so.
        As for the quality of the shooting - yes, it's a pity, but the fact is that:
        1) To shoot in 5 minutes - at that distance - the task is VERY non-trivial even for heavy all-big-gan ships equipped with much more advanced FCS than Rurik had. Rurik could not, but after six months of repairs this is not surprising. Strictly speaking, even without repairs it would not be surprising.
        2) Rurik, probably, could achieve hits if he continued to concentrate fire on Lubeck. But! Continuing to fire at the KRL while the BRKR is coming at you is a bit unusual. I would say that not to shoot at the Roon, but to continue to peck at Lubeck without afterthought is practically unrealistic.


        Just in time for the actions of Rurik no complaints :))
        Only for shooting.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        By the way, today on the main page there is an article about average caliber in Tsushima, I will be glad to see you there!

        I will certainly study - thanks!
  10. also clean
    also clean 22 May 2018 17: 22
    +4
    Quote: Sea Cat
    What "complete success" does the distinguished author speak of? So many forces involved, and as a result ... a torn mine layer. And he was not drowned. At least for the money it was worth the mass of shells that were practically thrown into the wind. And like a spit in the face - the undoubted success of the Englishman.

    And what is wrong?
    Russian plans - to bomb Memel.
    The result - FOREVER incapacitated! minzag and severely damaged 1 of 3 armored cruisers (let us attribute the success of the E-9 to Baltic Fleet), disrupted the mine production
    German plans - mine production
    The result - they mined the minzag (with a massive loss of hp), almost lost br.kr. (with the loss again, hp), received a moral slap in the face from the "sleeping Russians", arranged a grand schukher with a shuffle of squadrons, admirals, etc.
    Well, still. What's wrong?
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 22 May 2018 23: 08
      0
      Quote: alsoclean
      Well, still. What's wrong?

      Well, did Memel get bombed? Who ? ;)
      Well, the rest is completely "wrong."
      1. also clean
        also clean 23 May 2018 00: 20
        +2
        Do not bomb Memel. So the Germans did not put a single mine. Minzag lost and the cruiser. So what? If both sides of the goals set were NOT fulfilled, but one lost 2 ships, and the other returned home unscathed. What is it like? Where is it wrong?
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 24 May 2018 23: 15
          0
          Try reading Patients A. G. "The Tragedy of Errors." Chapter: "Day of Shame, or" Victory "at the Island of Gotland July 2, 1915." Unlike me, Mr. Sick is a writer, and as a historian, he is well known.

          Patients very sharply responded both to Bakhirev and the activities of the Baltic RIF as a whole. Andrei apparently hoped that he would be able to refute the conclusions of the Patients, but judging by the available arguments, this of course did not happen.
  11. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 23 May 2018 00: 03
    +1
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    There is only one conclusion - you have read the Patients. The cycle of my articles - no

    We read both Patients and Gribovsky and Lemishevsky, and we also read your series of articles. Paradoxically, all the basic facts in these sources coincide. For some reason, conclusions made on the basis of these facts do not coincide.

    If you wanted to turn everything upside down, you should add more pathos. Much more! But to put less facts. And then it turned out what happened - through the thick layer of icing sugar and a pretty strawberry, these unsightly and concrete facts are constantly being seen. And spoil the whole cake.

    In short: Admiral Bakhirev did not fulfill the specific task assigned to him. Eliminated from squad management. When meeting with the enemy, he showed passivity on the verge of cowardice. There are no reasons for a positive assessment of his actions.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      23 May 2018 01: 31
      +4
      Quote: Saxahorse
      We read both Patients and Gribovsky and Lemishevsky, and your cycle of articles also read

      Do not lie, it is harmful to karma (-500 to the trust of other commentators IN). As we just found out (see the comment above), you don’t even know what time Bahirev received radiograms about the presence of the Germans in the sea and the location of I. Karpf’s detachment. You need to learn the basics, not give out verdicts hi
      1. also clean
        also clean 23 May 2018 18: 51
        +2
        They say: feed the trolls is not good. But I fed, and you too. Wrong. No.
      2. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 23 May 2018 22: 53
        0
        Dear author, I suddenly forgot how to work with sources !?

        I told you where I got the numbers. OK, let's go again. I took the time of telegrams from Lemeshevsky. He wrote literally like this:

        ““ Task VII was completed. The enemy was not visible. I am at 2-E at 020 o’clock. The course is 190 °, speed is 17 knots. ”It was clear from the radiogram that the Germans made their seventh mine setting in the Baltic, placing mines in the vicinity of the Bogsher lighthouse .
        The radiogram, after being decrypted by the cruiser brigade, was received at 4 a.m. The brigade commander immediately decided to go closer to the German ships. At 6 o’clock. 15 minutes. the Russian cruisers lay at the crossroads of the enemy’s course. "

        You obviously took your numbers from Gribovsky. I suppose from this paragraph:

        “By 1 hour 45 minutes on the Admiral Makarov cruiser, two Rengarten messages were received:“ 19.06 Augsburg assigned a rendezvous to the probably light cruiser in quarter 377 ”and“ 9.45 place of the enemy cruiser, which was assigned to rendezvous, quarter 339. Flagrad * ""

        These figures of Gribovsky are not credible, if only because they do not coincide with his previous data literally the page above, and specifically:

        “At 22 pm, the last mine flew overboard, and the Augsburg and Albatros headed for a rendezvous with the support group ships. Three hours later, the German squadron gathered together to return to the bases, and Karf did not fail to send victorious radio reports”

        Have you noticed? "Three hours later!" Those. only at 1:30 Karpf’s detachment gathered after delivery and he began to send reports, and already at 1:45 Bahirev allegedly received a decrypted and processed message. Even two messages at once. This is an obvious blunder, and perhaps intentional. Your stormy comments on this topic are, to put it mildly, unfounded.

        Your enthusiastic giggle about rendezvous points upsets. You do not understand why the ship is determined by coastal landmarks? I explain - in order to continue moving further by calculation, from a guaranteed right point. Rendezvous points are assigned not only in case of fog. You can break away when moving in the dark, for technical reasons, after meeting with the enemy, etc. And to indicate emergency meeting points, one does not need to study the Baltic through a magic ball. It is enough to know the plan of operations with an approximate alignment of time. And to collect the lagged or damaged units it is recommended to allocate time in the plan.

        I will not comment on your stubborn reluctance to shoot at the enemy. Who knows, maybe you are a staunch pacifist, and my bewilderment by the reluctance to shoot Germans causes you deep rejection. For God's sake .. But to set as an example to others the sudden pacifism of the admiral of the Russian fleet is also clearly not worth it.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          24 May 2018 01: 05
          0
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Dear author, I suddenly forgot how to work with sources !?

          Well, teach me how to do this :)))))
          Quote: Saxahorse
          You obviously took your numbers from Gribovsky.

          Wrong. Kozlov D.Yu., but Gribovsky confirms them
          Quote: Saxahorse
          These figures of Gribovsky are not credible, if only because they do not coincide with his previous data literally the page above, and specifically:

          “At 22 pm, the last mine flew overboard, and the Augsburg and Albatros headed for a rendezvous with the support group ships. Three hours later, the German squadron gathered together to return to the bases, and Karf did not fail to send victorious radio reports”

          Have you noticed? "Three hours later!" Those. only at 1:30 Karpf’s detachment gathered after delivery and he began to send reports, and already at 1:45 Bahirev allegedly received a decrypted and processed message

          Bravo! Well, just the same scientific discovery. Only one question - and your ingenious induction and deduction are not bothered by the fact that the texts of the radiograms that Bakhirev received at 01.45 are one, and the radiogram received at 4 in the morning says something completely different? And what about 01.45 Bahirev received TWO radiograms, and at 04.002 - ONE - too?
          Do I need to explain the difference between the numbers "one" and "two"?
          And now we are learning to work with sources. To begin with, we take G. Rollman, this is such a German historian and read from him about how the mine production took place. German detachment divided
          "at about 18 p.m. Roon and Lubeck with a couple of destroyers dodged to the east. Albatross and Augsburg continued their campaign to the north." Moreover - while Albatros was laying mines, Augsburg was not next to him, but cruised between Bogscher and the Svenska-Björn lighthouse!
          In other words, the Germans were divided, and after a mine production they had to get together. And just then radiograms were given about
          “On June 19.06, the Augsburg assigned a rendezvous to the probably light cruiser in the quarter. 377 "and" 9.45 place of the enemy cruiser, which was assigned to rendezvous, apt. 339.
          ""
          Reingarten deciphered them and transferred them to Makarov. And then, after the Germans gathered, Karpf gave a triumphant broadcast about the assignment - she got to Bakhirev at 04.00 and was the third radio interception in a row.
          That is, Bahirev received news of the German ships at 01.45, until 03.00 he continued to search for Rurik, and then went to intercept. And at 04.00 I received a clarifying radiogram.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          This is an obvious blunder, and perhaps intentional. Your stormy comments on this topic are, to put it mildly, unfounded.

          Are you ashamed already? :))))
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Your enthusiastic giggle about rendezvous points upsets. You do not understand why the ship is determined by coastal landmarks? I explain - in order to continue moving further by calculation, from a guaranteed right point.

          Personally, I explain to you again. A ship can be determined by coastal landmarks only if it SEES THE COAST. This is clear? And in the fog the BEACH IS NOT visible. If there is fog on the sea, you CANNOT APPOINT the RESERVATION POINTS, for the simple reason that you DO NOT KNOW WHERE THE FOG IS AND WHERE IT IS NOT. Therefore, if there is foggy weather, assigning points of rendezvous and / or observation off the coast is meaningless. Well, maybe only a satellite, or old Hottabych ....
          Is that more clear? :)))) And then, when this simple truth reaches you, perhaps you will recall how dangerous it might be to assign observation points to fog off the coast. On the example of "Magdeburg" :)))))))))
          Quote: Saxahorse
          I will not comment on your stubborn reluctance to shoot at the enemy.

          That is, you once again declined to answer a simple question. And why am I not surprised?
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 24 May 2018 23: 01
            0
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Are you ashamed already? :))))

            Not really. My cant that I did not pay attention to these first two radiograms. They were useless because they contain almost no information. Somewhere in the Baltic, in the fog was a German cruiser. So what? It is impossible to find him. I am sure that there were more than a dozen such messages from the shore about German activity over this day. But the radiogram with the location, course and speed of the German connection, allowing to calculate their location and try to intercept, was received ONLY at 4:00. But then you refer to the first, garbage, radiogram! Allegedly, she is a serious motive to refuse to perform a combat mission.

            I can only repeat that earlier than 4 hours Bahirev could not decide to go to interception. There was simply no information needed.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            If there is fog on the sea, you CANNOT APPOINT the RESERVATION POINTS, for the simple reason that you DO NOT KNOW WHERE THE FOG IS AND WHERE IT IS NOT.

            For some reason, I still can’t explain what I’m talking about, not about observation points, but about rendezvous points. These are such points on the plan of the operation where it is necessary to accumulate strength before the strike and collect the lost and crippled after the strike, to follow to the rear, for example. Of course they are not assigned to rocks and shallows, they are chosen in supposedly safe areas. And the observation points will be where it works, although of course it is recommended to estimate in advance convenient areas for this.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            That is, you once again declined to answer a simple question. And why am I not surprised?

            And here, on the contrary, I could not understand your position. And still I'm waiting for how you can explain the stubborn reluctance of Admiral Bakhirev to attack, or at least shell in passing, your opponent. It's hard for me to believe that you like passive admirals. :)
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              25 May 2018 01: 44
              0
              Quote: Saxahorse
              My cant that I did not pay attention to these first two radiograms. They were useless because they contain almost no information. Somewhere in the Baltic, in the fog was a German cruiser. So what? It is impossible to find him.

              Reread the text of the radiograms, please. There - the location of the German cruisers :)))
              Quote: Saxahorse
              For some reason, I still can’t explain what I’m talking about, not about observation points, but about rendezvous points.

              What kick about an owl, what an owl about a stump. Have you still not realized that a ship arrives at a rendezvous point in a fog without observance (and even with it) with a deviation, and you can meet there in heavy fog only by accident?
              Quote: Saxahorse
              And still I'm waiting for how you can explain the stubborn reluctance of Admiral Bakhirev to attack, or at least shell in passing, your opponent.

              I repeat for the eleventh time - Bakhirev was not so hot with shells, he needed not to contact Roon, but to connect with armadillos to give battle to the detachment in the north. The fire at those distances and at the limit of visibility did not inflict tangible damage on either side. It was necessary either to get close and fight to death (which is not so easy to fight with an armored cruiser in the absence of armor-piercing shells) despite the fact that even in case of victory, there would be nothing to fight with the second detachment, or simply fight off Roon and leave that Bakhirev and done
              1. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 26 May 2018 00: 32
                0
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Reread the text of the radiograms, please. There - the location of the German cruisers :)))

                Counteroffer. Reread the text of the radiograms please :) There ONLY the place of the German cruiser a few hours ago. And to this place 8-10 hours in full swing. And the German will stand there and wait for you in the fog. Sure sure.. :)

                By the way, no one bothered to do the same to Bakherev. Give a radiogram to your lost squad, for example, "going to square 408 at 12 o’clock." One problem, that he lost half the cruisers only in the morning, after 6 hours he noticed. By the way, he could lose all the other ships when at 3 o'clock on the turn Bayan and his matelots came off. It would be a number if Bahirev returned to the base all alone :)

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Have you still not realized that a ship arrives at a rendezvous point in a fog without observance (and even with it) with a deviation, and you can meet there in heavy fog only by accident?

                Let me try to quote Lemishevsky again:
                “There was a thick fog when, at 18 pm, being in latitude 10 ° 56 'and longitude 19 ° 19' (numbering), the detachment lay down on the executive course 57 ° laid on Memel between the Russian barriers."
                Did you notice? In the thick fog, the squadron enters the passage between the minefields. No one says that it is very simple, but as you can see, they have done it more than once. "Rurik" so five times back and forth went in search of his "lost" flagship. By the way, at 18 o’clock it was generally a peak of fog, then it became easier and the same Bahirev and the same Pyshnov repeatedly reported that visibility was poor, but it was 50-70 cable! It is up to 12 km if that .. You are exaggerating too much the problems that of course were ..

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                I repeat for the eleventh time - Bakhirev was not so hot with shells, he needed not to contact Roon, but to connect with armadillos to give battle to the detachment in the north.

                Apparently this is the main intrigue of all historians describing this battle. I have never met the text of this mysterious message. Judging by Bakhirev’s extremely nervous behavior, at least “von der Tann” and “Derflinger” were mentioned in full swing.

                But seriously, it’s hard to understand why Bahirev was afraid of such a terrible thing? What besides a couple of armored cruisers could suddenly meet at sea? Keep in mind that any chase from the bases was obviously very late. In war, there is always the possibility of meeting superior enemy forces. But if you remember this is called prudence, then every order and action proceeds from the fact that in a second virtual danger will become a reality - this is called cowardice.

                Nothing prevented Bahirev from attacking Roon. And even if he is super-super-careful, then at least he will come close and fire at the whole squadron, throwing holes and damage, but no .. we are fleeing at full speed despite a clear superiority in forces.

                We can add that the alleged shortage of ammunition is also a consequence of the mediocre control of the battle near the island of Gotland. Petrov is absolutely right in his claims to Bahirev. (M.A. Petrov “Two Fights”). Stupid maneuvering and an hour and a half firing at sea is of course a problem.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  26 May 2018 12: 09
                  0
                  You repeat :)))) Sorry, but I see no reason to continue to feed the troll
                  1. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 27 May 2018 18: 35
                    0
                    It is unfortunate that I did not notice this your Gotland cycle before. Unfortunately, there are a lot of mistakes and superficial evaluations. Admiral Bahirev himself got his way in 1919, so fate cannot be deceived.

                    But at the same time, your persistent attempts to make an icon out of a frankly mediocre admiral upset you.
  12. Alex
    Alex 23 May 2018 00: 03
    +3
    Andrew, thank you so much. I read all sections of the cycle with great interest. Your articles - as a wonderful echo of the old days of the site. Thanks again!
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      23 May 2018 01: 41
      +2
      You're welcome, Alexander, and thank you for your kind words!
  13. faiver
    faiver 23 May 2018 17: 26
    0
    read with great pleasure, as always, the author pleased hi
  14. Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2018 01: 10
    +1
    Quote: alsoclean
    Quote: Sea Cat
    What "complete success" does the distinguished author speak of? So many forces involved, and as a result ... a torn mine layer. And he was not drowned. At least for the money it was worth the mass of shells that were practically thrown into the wind. And like a spit in the face - the undoubted success of the Englishman.

    And what is wrong?
    Russian plans - to bomb Memel.
    The result - FOREVER incapacitated! minzag and severely damaged 1 of 3 armored cruisers (let us attribute the success of the E-9 to Baltic Fleet), disrupted the mine production
    German plans - mine production
    The result - they mined the minzag (with a massive loss of hp), almost lost br.kr. (with the loss again, hp), received a moral slap in the face from the "sleeping Russians", arranged a grand schukher with a shuffle of squadrons, admirals, etc.
    Well, still. What's wrong?


    The shelling of Memel did not take place. I said everything about Albatross above. And as for the torpedoing of BC - do not "allow" to ascribe to others the merits of yourself. The Germans also managed. But the effort spent on the unfortunate minzag could be used on something more useful. Compare the composition of forces. And where is the victory to be proud of? hi
    1. also clean
      also clean 25 May 2018 00: 54
      0
      And of course you would like in the Middle Ages? Knights? One on one?
      The Russians did everything right - the minzag was destroyed - the mines were disrupted. Overwhelming superiority in forces made it possible to do without losses. Not everyone was drowned. So what?
      Angles at the Volklands are also not all, and at Helgoland. There, superiority was simply beyond. So what?
      And about the E-9. The boats were in the operational command of the Baltic Fleet. If the GMS did not send the submarine there, Horton would torpedo why! So the merits are not strangers .... hi
  15. ser56
    ser56 25 May 2018 12: 40
    +1
    and the whole series of articles is not bad, and a successful conclusion! Congratulations to the author.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      25 May 2018 14: 07
      0
      Quote: ser56
      Congratulations to the author.

      Thank you!
  16. Niko
    Niko 29 October 2019 14: 44
    0
    Thousands of sailors and hundreds of ships are not yet a fleet. This is exactly about the Italian fleet in world wars, and even more accurately about Russian, Soviet. A pitiful semblance of REAL Fleets