Military Review

Abrams or Armata? National Interest publishes another "expert" opinion

100
On the pages of The National Interest magazine, another “expert” comparison of Russian and Western technology appeared. This time, the comparison included the Russian T-14 tank based on the Armata universal tracked platform and the United States МNNXX Abrams main battle tank.


Abrams or Armata? National Interest publishes another "expert" opinion


When writing the article, the author, apparently to make it more convincing, modeled some kind of unintended collision near Kaliningrad at the end of the 2020-s of the Russian and American ground forces.

He suggested that by then the main tanks US Army will become General Dynamics M1A2 SEP v.4 Abrams - a little more advanced, but still similar to modern American Abrams. Russian troops are likely to represent vehicles similar to the T-72B3M, T-80BVM, T-90M and T-14 Armata tanks.

The promising Russian tank T-14 "Armata" and the main American battle tank M1 Abrams are comparable in their characteristics, according to the author of the study, but the first vehicle is slightly inferior to the second one equipped with sensors.

Most likely, in the end, T-14 and Abrams offer comparable performance - none of them can have an overwhelming advantage over the other. However, the excellent Abrams sensors and probably the excellent training of the US Army and the combat doctrine will give the United States an advantage, albeit a small
- writes an American magazine.

The publication notes that the Russian tank, which has an uninhabited tower, provides better protection for the crew than the American one, and also, due to its lower weight, is more maneuverable. The magazine, referring to Captain Stefan Bühler of the Swiss Association of Officers of Armored Forces, adds that "sensors are a problem for all tanks."

The journal notes that in the conditions of use by countries of nuclear weapons the use of tanks is meaningless, although the first collisions are possible with their participation
Photos used:
http://www.globallookpress.com
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  1. Serhiodjan
    Serhiodjan 16 May 2018 16: 11
    +22
    They can’t write differently, the Americans are incorrigible :)) let them come to the tank biathlon and see whose training is better! Of course, they won’t come, maybe the Boyazza Obosratstsa. But they are ready to write this “better crew preparedness”, and why did they get this? There are doubts that American tank crews will generally fight against the Russians near the borders of the Russian Federation, and will not write a quick release
    1. Logall
      Logall 16 May 2018 16: 14
      +12
      Quote: Serhiodjan
      That they can not write differently, the Americans are incorrigible :))

      excellent training for the US Army and combat doctrine will give the United States an advantage, albeit a small
      I cried... crying

      lol lol lol laughing
      1. Astoria
        Astoria 16 May 2018 16: 30
        +6
        combat doctrine
        the freelance student seems to have played computer games.
        1. Hire
          Hire 16 May 2018 17: 05
          +6
          Can start reading in English? And then I still did not understand: where is the comparison?
    2. Hunter 2
      Hunter 2 16 May 2018 16: 20
      +3
      .... and do not write a quick dismissal (quote)
      Let them write, we do not have enough combines and tractor drivers! wink
      And the coolest is TRACTOR BELARUS! good I want to be NI analysts !!!!!
      The article is almost ready, the Yars missile is against Washington, which will be stronger! laughing
      1. Logall
        Logall 16 May 2018 16: 21
        +5
        Quote: Hunter 2
        Yars - against Washington, which will be stronger

        Everything will scatter to hell! There will be no rocket, no Washington ...
        1. Hunter 2
          Hunter 2 16 May 2018 16: 24
          +4
          Quote: Logall
          Quote: Hunter 2
          Yars - against Washington, which will be stronger

          Everything will scatter to hell! There will be no rocket, no Washington ...

          I found an expert for the article! good laughing laughing
          Kirdyk Mujumaru, will be fired! wink
        2. Doliva63
          Doliva63 16 May 2018 16: 25
          +7
          Quote: Logall
          Quote: Hunter 2
          Yars - against Washington, which will be stronger

          Everything will scatter to hell! There will be no rocket, no Washington ...

          A draw or something ?! belay drinks
        3. yustas
          yustas 16 May 2018 16: 58
          0
          Washington will win, at least something will remain from him, but not from the rocket, so that again you will win in this case)))
    3. Hole puncher
      Hole puncher 16 May 2018 17: 06
      0
      Quote: Serhiodjan
      Americans are incorrigible:

      Don't draw a parallel between the US and the National Interest. National Interest is actually a Russian publication, similar to the Daily Worker in Soviet times.
    4. fireman sun
      fireman sun 16 May 2018 17: 19
      0
      Quote: Serhiodjan
      But they are ready to write this "the best preparedness of the crews", and where did they get this?

      They are very famously crushing cars during exercises, we don’t know how wassat
    5. NEXUS
      NEXUS 16 May 2018 17: 35
      +1
      The promising Russian tank T-14 "Armata" and the main American battle tank M1 Abrams are comparable in their characteristics, according to the author of the study, but the first vehicle is slightly inferior to the second one equipped with sensors.

      I didn't read further. Abrams compare with the T-14 is like a Phantom compare with the SU-57.
    6. In h
      In h 17 May 2018 07: 49
      0
      And how can you compare them at all .. lying on the couch and never having seen them .. except for the photo? And after all, the characteristics are not really known, then the planes that have not seen in the eyes are compared .. then the missiles and all this with clever reasoning and indisputable authority. .And who decided .. that the US army is better prepared and where are the victories of this army ..? Korea ..Vietnam ..by a better-prepared army, it’s gotten better. Syria is also like that ... But you can write anything you want .. especially if you don't really know what you are writing about ..
  2. Strips
    Strips 16 May 2018 16: 12
    +3
    Just how much is Armat and how much is Abrams winked

    And having modern tanks, for some reason Russia, for example, used junk in Georgia.
    1. zoolu350
      zoolu350 16 May 2018 16: 28
      +2
      The industrial "power" of the Russian Federation under the leadership of your partners from the Russian oligarchy is evident. Under the USSR, "Armata" or T-95 would have entered service en masse and would have burned your Merkava armored sheds in the SAR long ago.
      1. Strips
        Strips 16 May 2018 16: 49
        +3

        . The industrial "power" of the Russian Federation under the leadership of your partners from the Russian oligarchy is evident


        Oh yes, of course. This is Putin's Israel who recently chose lol


        Quote: zoolu350
        Under the USSR, the "Armata" or T-95 would have been enlisted en masse and would have long been burning your Merkava armored vehicles in the SAR.


        As far as I remember, the Jews defeated the Arabs when the Arabs were helped by the USSR and more than once.

        You can of course dream of the USSR, but the USSR also could not help the Arabs defeat the Jews, even when the Soviet, so-called advisers were on airplanes and for air defense.

        And the clash between the Israeli pilots and the Soviets, which ended sadly for the Soviets, is also no secret.

        Yes, and the armature still needs to reach the merkava and manage not to get something like Spike NLOS ..
        1. zoolu350
          zoolu350 16 May 2018 16: 56
          +4
          When Armata receives a 152 mm gun and tactical SBS, it will be very easy to reach both the Merkava armored sheds and Tel Aviv.
          Well, the Zionist (fascist) “Skyhoku”, “Phantom” and “Mirage” meeting with the Soviet pilots did not bring happiness, but how much misfortune the meeting with the Soviet air defense systems of Kutyntsev brought them one glance.
          1. Strips
            Strips 16 May 2018 17: 06
            +2
            Quote: zoolu350
            “Skyhock”, “Phantom” and “Mirage” meeting with Soviet pilots did not bring happiness,


            Is it?

            Kutakhov ordered the cessation of flights of Soviet pilots in the Suez Canal zone. The Marshal forbade his pilots to engage in combat with Israeli fighters. The leadership of the USSR notified the Egyptian side that it could no longer render assistance to the Egyptian government in ensuring the inviolability of Egyptian air borders. Nasser could not continue the armed conflict with Israel without full-fledged outside help, and was forced to agree to a ceasefire, which came into force at midnight from 7 to 8 August 1970.




            Quote: zoolu350
            When Armata receives a 152 mm gun and tactical SBS, it will be very easy to reach both the Merkava armored sheds and Tel Aviv.


            Yes of course wassat

            Quote: zoolu350
            how much misfortune the meeting with the Soviet air defense systems of Kutyntsev brought them one feast for the eyes.


            War is war. It was just that Jews died for their country and defeated the Arabs, while Soviet soldiers died and fought for a foreign country and lost together with the Arabs. hi
      2. nikoliski
        nikoliski 16 May 2018 16: 53
        +3
        The "power" of the USSR "showed" itself in Afghanistan, when in 10 years of war they left with nothing, with the hooting of dushmans, in vain losing thousands of lives of children who didn’t even have bulletproof vests (it was considered a western fashion, because women still give birth to women)
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Pollux
          Pollux 16 May 2018 17: 44
          0
          Quote: nikoliski
          after all, women are still giving birth

          These are the words of an American general during the American Civil War. This is how the Americans fight - they crush with numbers.
          1. nikoliski
            nikoliski 16 May 2018 18: 17
            -1
            It was a funny joke, especially with the American scorched earth tactics, first bombing, and then just come in. On the contrary, in Chechnya we took every house in Grozny, losing thousands of guys (the Americans would have simply bombed a month like Serbia the Terrible, until everyone had been there killed or would not surrender the militants) And in the Second World War, the Americans lost only 300 military and fought from 000 years with the Japanese throughout the Pacific Ocean, then in Africa and finally in Europe (but there since 41 years after Normandy only with large forces so by the way They took Italy playfully) and ours loved to attack MG44 with a cry of hurray. Do you know what kind of machine gun it is? depending on the shutter, the rate of fire reached from 42 to 1300 rounds per minute! (the PKM has only about 2000 rate of fire) the sound was continuous from the chirping of this death machine and the bullets are explosive, so among the current veterans I doubt that there are infantrymen who went more than 650 times in an infantry attack and reached Berlin without injuries (the Americans would definitely have burned the Dot first than to go to such attacks, there the soldiers would simply give up suicide with the right to do so)
            1. Pollux
              Pollux 16 May 2018 18: 59
              +1
              Quote: nikoliski
              It was a funny joke, especially with American scorched earth tactics, first bombing, and then just come in

              The numerical superiority can be different, for someone in people, for someone in bombs, for someone in the astronomical cost of technology.
              Quote: nikoliski
              every house was taken in Grozny, losing thousands of guys

              Write millions - burn with a verb so that it is immediately clear to everyone what kind of "expert" you are.
              Quote: nikoliski
              Italy took playfully

              Everyone took Italy effortlessly.
              Quote: nikoliski
              the soldiers just refused

              Therefore, they cannot defeat some primitive Bedouins.
              1. nikoliski
                nikoliski 16 May 2018 19: 10
                -1
                thousands died during the capture of Grozny, didn’t you know this fact (it’s clear that not every house, namely because they took every house, instead of total destruction) about the Bedouins, and we, having been fighting for 3 years in Syria, helping their Bedouin army killed everyone? (more year and in time as the Second World War is already going)
                1. Pollux
                  Pollux 16 May 2018 21: 05
                  0
                  Quote: nikoliski
                  thousands died during the capture of Grozny is a fact you did not know?

                  Quote: nikoliski
                  every house was taken in Grozny, losing thousands of guys

                  No matter how you write the same thing. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that in the first Chechen war, people trained by the Soviet Union fought on both sides, in the second Chechen one, when Ichkeria had few Soviet specialists left - this so-called state was quickly rolled away.
                  Quote: nikoliski
                  about the Bedouins, and we fighting 3 years in Syria helping their Bedouin army killed everyone?

                  Alle garage, where did you see Bedouins in Syria? Point your finger.
                  1. abrakadabre
                    abrakadabre 19 May 2018 20: 24
                    0
                    From the side of the Alahakbarnaths there are quite a lot of, and, so to speak, "Bedouins." Whatever and where only scumbags the West did not gather in Syria. On the Syrian side, of course, they are not.
                    1. Pollux
                      Pollux 19 May 2018 23: 01
                      0
                      Quote: abrakadabre
                      On the part of the alahakbarnutyh, there are quite a few, so to speak, "Bedouins".

                      Alla garage, what kind of Bedouins are there?
                      Quote: abrakadabre
                      Whatever and where only scumbags the West did not gather in Syria.

                      Exactly so, entirely Anglo-American mercenaries, they only saw Bedouins on TV.
                      1. abrakadabre
                        abrakadabre 20 May 2018 12: 38
                        0
                        Duc and from the Bedouin countries are recruited as well. There is also a combined hodgepodge of all the rabble. And from the respective countries too.
            2. dvina71
              dvina71 16 May 2018 19: 29
              +1
              Quote: nikoliski
              fought since 41 years with the Japanese throughout the Pacific Ocean

              I recalled ..
              Two cruisers and a dozen destroyers of the Japanese fleet were promptly transferred to the island of Kyska, entered the harbor, and within 45 minutes took on board more than five thousand people. Their departure was covered by 15 submarines. The evacuation of the island for the Americans went unnoticed. During the two weeks that passed between the evacuation of the Japanese and the landing of the American troops, the US command continued to build up the group in the Aleutians and bomb the empty island.

              Then, in accordance with the classical theory of captures, American and Canadian forces landed at two points on the western coast of Kyski at once. On this day, American warships shelled the island eight times, dropped 135 tons of bombs and piles of leaflets calling for surrender to the island. But the Japanese stubbornly did not want to give up, which, however, did not surprise the American command. The island was completely empty, but the Americans believed that the insidious enemy was hiding and was waiting for close combat.

              For two days, the Americans fought their way around the island with fights, shooting at their neighbors with fear, mistaking them for the Japanese. And, still not believing themselves, for eight days, American soldiers combed the island, rummaging through every cave and turning over every stone, looking for "hidden" cunning Japanese soldiers. Then they calculated the losses in the capture of their island. There were more than 300 of them killed and wounded.

              31 American soldiers died due to the so-called "friendly fire", sincerely believing that the Japanese were shooting, another fifty were injured in the same way. About 130 soldiers were knocked out of action due to frostbite of the feet and "trench foot" - a fungal infection of the feet, which contributed to the constant humidity and cold. In addition, the American destroyer Abner Reed was blown up on a Japanese mine, on board of which 47 people were killed and more than 70 were injured.

              Quote: nikoliski
              Ours, with a cry of cheers, loved to go on the attack on the MG42. Do you know what kind of machine gun it is?

              Anyone who is interested in history knows what kind of machine gun it is .. And I have a counter question .. how many operators of this device survived three attacks? Especially since 43 ... when the snipers were transferred to the second line during the offensive ... and any machine gun that opened fire on the advancing infantry was a priority for them.
              And I advise you to read about the Korsun-Shevchenko operation ... or rather about artillery preparation ..
        3. zoolu350
          zoolu350 16 May 2018 20: 42
          +3
          In Afghanistan, it was the POWER of the USSR that showed itself, but everyone knows about the deeds of the Marked who betrayed him. Why didn't the SA have bulletproof vests in Afghanistan? Do not carry a blizzard.
        4. proletarian
          proletarian 16 May 2018 22: 39
          0
          It is very strange that you are talking about Afghanistan, firstly the traitor who became the only "prezik" of the USSR brought the troops out of "Afgan", and secondly why do the Afghans themselves say: why did you leave, schools, hospitals, factories were built with you, agriculture was developing; "penguins" expand only opium plantations.
          Is that what you wanted to say?
    2. Mikhail m
      Mikhail m 16 May 2018 16: 29
      0
      Georgia won?
      1. Strips
        Strips 16 May 2018 16: 52
        +1
        Quote: Mikhail M
        Georgia won?


        Not. But some of those who sat in the destroyed equipment died.
        1. Usher
          Usher 16 May 2018 17: 35
          0
          You will be surprised, they die in the war, and the tank is a BATTLE technique.
    3. KCA
      KCA 16 May 2018 16: 39
      +3
      Abrams can only resist Armata? 72B3M, 80BVM, T-90M are direct, well, not at all opponents of Abrams, in Abrams there is a Negro loader, he delivers shells 100 times faster than a machine gun, and there is also an APU, which, when firing, not straight ahead, but under even small the fragmentation projectile will ignite at an angle and Abrams will joyfully sing “soar with bonfires”. The 58th army fought with Georgia, rear, but here is the result of using old tanks:
      During the war in South Ossetia, the 58th Army captured 65 tanks, several dozen units of other armored vehicles, including five Osa air defense systems, 15 BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicles, D-30 artillery guns, and self-propelled artillery Czech-made installations and US-made armored personnel carriers. Earlier, during the retreat, the Georgian military left 15 tanks, dozens of armored vehicles and artillery, shells and missiles in the hangars and in the warehouses of the military base near the city of Gori. Part of the ammunition was destroyed, and part was taken out of Georgia. At another military base, in the city of Senaki, which was also abandoned by Georgian troops without a fight, Russian military personnel seized 1728 weapons, including 764 M-16 rifles (US made), 28 M240 machine guns (also US made) and 754 Kalashnikov assault rifles
      Now the 58th is rearmed with the most modern technology.
      1. nikoliski
        nikoliski 16 May 2018 17: 03
        0
        In Georgia, another sore was opened (we had not fought with a country that had air defense of our production, I mean Ukrainian Buks in Georgia) for 5 days of the war, we lost 6 aircraft and a helicopter (these are recognized losses) where are anti-radar missiles, electronic warfare aircraft and so on why on the same day the Tu1 was shot down at an altitude, this raises many questions about the loss of aviation in Syria (the coalition did not lose a single aircraft, although it took longer there) and we even managed to drown from the aircraft carrier 22 in some way, and so aviation losses cause depressing impressions there (especially that the newest Su-2 fell from a bird in the air intake, and so that the crew did not eject) what is it? maybe some kind of electromagnetic weapon of the Americans, well, at least kill the version with a bird, if you believe, then all American deck f35 would have died long ago from gulls and albatrosses ...
        1. Polite Moose
          Polite Moose 16 May 2018 18: 19
          +5
          Quote: nikoliski
          Su-35 fell from a bird in the air intake, and so that the crew did not eject) what is it? maybe some kind of electromagnetic weapon of the Americans, well, at least kill the version with a bird if you believe

          My version is about a collision with a bird: a similar incident happened a little earlier with the L-39 in the Krasnodar Territory, the bird broke the cockpit glazing, the fragments of which damaged the engine, but the cadet did not grab the carcass on the head and was conscious why he was able to land the car. But in the case of the SU-35, fate decreed otherwise. Most likely the front pilot as a result of a collision with a bird was shell-shocked and was unconscious, or died immediately. Therefore, he could not actuate the catapult. The back, not knowing for sure his condition, tried to save himself and his comrade to the last. I didn’t quit. Therefore both died. And any banter here is inappropriate.
          1. nikoliski
            nikoliski 16 May 2018 18: 32
            0
            Actually, the Su-35 lantern can withstand birds, but about the bird it meant getting into the air intake, to which the experienced test pilot said that it can be pulled out on one engine (so the banter is about the version of our Ministry of Defense, which consider people as stupid cotton wool without brains, which believes in any absurdity - how they lied about the ka-52, then it was a malfunction, then when the militants posted a photo of the wreckage, they immediately began to either MANPADS, then zu23 (although before that they sang that the jamming system would save from MANPADS and 23 mm projectiles are not afraid of the alligator, now completely ignore this topic)
            1. Polite Moose
              Polite Moose 16 May 2018 18: 45
              +2
              Quote: nikoliski
              Actually, the Su-35 can withstand birds

              If this is 100% true over the entire speed range, then all questions remain, how and why both pilots died. My version is nothing more than a version. But I cannot find another logical explanation for that disaster with the death of the crew. Naturally, I proceed from the facts in open sources.
              1. nikoliski
                nikoliski 16 May 2018 23: 38
                -1
                There wasn’t much speed there –– gaining altitude above the sea (an official statement hit the seagull in the air intake), although a professional pilot spoke (I already wrote about this) and said that you can fly with one engine, the MiG-29s even took off sometimes by 1, most likely shot down or some serious refusal, but our media is silent as always, and now we are guessing
        2. dvina71
          dvina71 16 May 2018 19: 08
          +3
          Quote: nikoliski
          where are anti-radar missiles, electronic warfare aircraft and so on

          You did not follow those events well, or you deliberately misled. The main losses of the Russian Air Force fell on the first two days of combat. Then time passed for seconds and the aircraft were thrown practically to the slaughter. A couple of days later, the Su-34s pulled up and the Georgian air defense ceased to exist as a class .. something that was not destroyed from them .. vehicles were already from the ground.
          1. Pereira
            Pereira 16 May 2018 22: 24
            0
            First, not the first. On the first day, our aircraft did not fly, since the Supreme Commander-in-Chief (recall who?) Forgot to give an order.
            Secondly, since at first only Georgians flew, Ossetians took our planes as Georgian and shot them down recklessly.
            Thirdly, Su-34 was not then.
            1. dvina71
              dvina71 16 May 2018 22: 27
              +1
              Quote: Pereira
              Thirdly, Su-34 was not then.

              There was a couple, from the third day of the conflict. It was they who put out the Georgian air defense,
              1. Pereira
                Pereira 17 May 2018 20: 01
                0
                With Su - wrong. But Ossetians fired no worse than Georgians.
                Sahaka spoke of the 21 aircraft. This is slaughter.
    4. Polite Moose
      Polite Moose 16 May 2018 17: 58
      +3
      Quote: Tiras
      And having modern tanks, for some reason Russia, for example, used junk in Georgia.

      The answer is very simple: Time! Passing through the Roki tunnel before the exit from it was blown up or blocked by the Georgians was a key moment in the whole operation "08.08.08." If it had not been possible to transfer the BT to the other side of the tunnel, then it would have had to be done by air with an unpredictable result and much greater costs. So they threw all the nearest cars onto the march. To be honest, the T-34 company would have done the weather there, too. The bill went to the clock.
    5. san4es
      san4es 16 May 2018 18: 55
      +1
      Quote: Tiras
      Just how much is Armat and how much is Abrams winked.

      ... "Abrams" in the M1A2 SEP v4 version - not a single one ... They don’t have time to create - again they have to catch up
      General Dynamics is preparing to roll out an even more improved Abrams in the M1A2 SEP v4 variant for the foreseeable future - sometime in the 2020s. He, according to the creators, will be even more deadly, better protected, equipped with new sensors and equipped with updated, more effective weapons.
      "Production of the upgraded to v4 tank will begin in 2023, and the first deliveries to the troops will be made in 2025," said Ashley Jevens (spokesman for the ground combat systems division of the US Army's Executive Department of Programs).
      In the promising version, the developers first of all intend to use radically new control principles for both the gunner and the tank commander, as well as to strengthen the protection of the combat vehicle and increase the survivability of the tank on the battlefield.
      The first seven prototypes of the M1A2 SEP v4 will enter the US Army shortly. The initial contract provides for financing in the amount of $ 311 million, according to a statement from the corporation.
      According to the creators of the next version of "Abrams", advanced network technologies, next-generation sights, numerous new sensors are designed so that the M1A2 SEP v4 can equal the Russian T-14 Armata and the third-generation Chinese Type 99 tank.

      https://www.gazeta.ru/army/2017/09/25/10906382.sh
      tml
    6. wasjasibirjac
      wasjasibirjac 16 May 2018 18: 55
      +1
      Quote: Tiras
      And having modern tanks, for some reason Russia, for example, used junk in Georgia.

      "Georgians" ran out faster than new things arrived at the front.
  3. Dam
    Dam 16 May 2018 16: 12
    +5
    I am curious that this magazine enjoys such respect in VO. Ordinary jaundice. And iksperd there alone, but very respected Dave Majumar, this one knows everything!
    1. Astoria
      Astoria 16 May 2018 16: 31
      0
      It was not Dave who wrote it, someone from the outside.
      1. Hole puncher
        Hole puncher 16 May 2018 17: 07
        +1
        Quote: Astoria
        It was not Dave who wrote it, someone from the outside.

        Come on, they are all the same level there, below the baseboard
    2. cats
      cats 16 May 2018 17: 10
      0
      Quote: Damm
      that this magazine is so respected in VO.

      Here they are throwing neighing.
      Well, to maintain the spirit of local Jews .. hi
  4. nikoliski
    nikoliski 16 May 2018 16: 17
    -1
    The lack of Armata in the high cost and complexity of production (because of which the order was already cut to 50 cars) and so certainly it is a modern YAGDtiger, which is a cut above its contemporaries.
  5. zyzx
    zyzx 16 May 2018 16: 19
    0
    As an expert theorist, I claim the T-34 is the strongest ... prove the opposite.
    1. nikoliski
      nikoliski 16 May 2018 16: 24
      -1
      play in world of tanks, prove yourself)
      1. sabakina
        sabakina 16 May 2018 19: 48
        +1
        Quote: nikoliski
        play in world of tanks, prove yourself)

        Well, I play VoT (rarely right now), I had a fight on the T-34-85, of the 30 players I was left alive. The latter was dismantled by the Soviet heavy, KVaSa like.
    2. Soran
      Soran 16 May 2018 16: 41
      0
      Hey hey hey ... we are not discussing the tactics of zerling rush here :-)
  6. Cruel beaver
    Cruel beaver 16 May 2018 16: 19
    0
    "Abrams crew training? Well, well
    Oh yes, I forgot: coffee makers and microwave ovens are professionally handled by the crew. I heard that the Abrams equipment even has a dry closet! laughing
    1. nikoliski
      nikoliski 16 May 2018 16: 28
      +2
      is it bad? I was tormented by the heat on the boiler (the driver), I was just choking, imagine what's in the tank? and if an American has a condition, this is an additional reaction and less crew fatigue than, say, in our T-80, where they sit like herring in a barrel choking on sun-heated armor (the thickness of the tower roof is only 30mm, unlike Abrams’s 100mm) and who has diarrhea, walk for themselves? (to sniff later) or climb out during a fight?
      1. Astoria
        Astoria 16 May 2018 16: 33
        0
        no, not bad, but it increases the weight by a couple of tens of tons.
        1. nikoliski
          nikoliski 16 May 2018 16: 39
          -1
          the weight of the T80 is 46 tons, the weight of the Abrams of the first models is 55 tons, the last 62 tons (uranium, titanium, kevlar, ceramics with a puff cake) and that is entirely due to the thick frontal armor (lateral comparable) the forehead of the tower of the latest model of the Abrams is equivalent from bps 830mm and from ks 1350mm when the penetration rate of our bps is 600 mm lead, the tower is invulnerable (only the gun of the armata will take it) the forehead of the Abrams case is of the order of 700 mm, against the BPS (excluding the NLD below and tanks) the same shells from T72 700 mm do not penetrate (and from the cop the equivalent is of the order of 950 mm , that is, an invar will not even penetrate the combined armor into the hull)
          1. Astoria
            Astoria 16 May 2018 16: 53
            0
            And? I do not understand the point in comparing the different concepts of these combat vehicles. No one says that Abrams is worse, but he has a different purpose and the resulting different weight and other operating conditions.
            1. nikoliski
              nikoliski 16 May 2018 17: 17
              -1
              And that MBT standing (and standing for many years) in the arsenal of the countries of the opponents, why is it pointless to compare? The problem of our T-72 and T80 in the AZ is the real rate of fire of 6-8 rounds per minute (approximately the same with manual loading of Abrams) (A in South Korean K2, AZ issues up to 15 rounds per minute) when the AZ of 22 rounds ends, additional shells from the hull floor are manually charged in our tanks, already 2 rounds per minute, because of the small dimensions of the turret they did not make a normal AZ volume, so long BPS they don’t get in there (and the BPS is such a dart that it can’t penetrate armor thicker than its length, that is, the armor penetration of our BPS is limited to 600 mm (Lead and Vant, the best BPS for the T-90, the old ones generally did not penetrate more than 500) Americans hiding their shells in the wet super-long uranium shells are also placed there (the best penetrates up to 800mm at close range, 740mm at 2km, and the DZ contact "pierces" without triggering, that is, piercing the bare 400-600 mm of the frontal armor of our tanks) Abrams on defends and breaks by an order of magnitude superior to its contemporary T80 (also gas turbine) Armata is like a breath of fresh air, finally we got a tank that pierces any western tank in the forehead, Armata is like a Jagdtiger, when it appeared among the Germans (albeit in small quantities) it worked cases-in one battle destroyed 30 Shermans! if Armatu is not bombed from the air (and Kaz Afganit will be "taught" to shoot down Javellin attacking vertically) then this will be our real imba, on which it will be possible to drag out a war with any enemy - it's a pity that the initial order is being cut and cut, 50 armature is not enough will be...
              1. cariperpaint
                cariperpaint 16 May 2018 18: 01
                0
                Yes, because this is not a serial order. This car will be driven around the troops for several more years, looking for its correct application. We have in real life one tank plant for their manufacture. One. What do you think he will be able to churn out hundreds of them a month? The saturation of new technology should be gradual. This is not done in a year or even 5 in a normal way.
              2. Astoria
                Astoria 16 May 2018 18: 35
                0
                1)
                Well, we will soon have a generation of tankers who grew up on the World of Tanks, so there will be enough brains to go around and smash it from the side (the skills of the crew, in my opinion, are just as important as the performance characteristics of a tank, when experienced Germans in '41 with their 3500 tanks (another fifteen hundred remained in Europe and Africa) were smashed to smithereens by our tank divisions, which consisted mainly of light tanks of the BT-7 type, in 41 we had 26000 tanks! and the Germans did not even have heavy tanks in 41 (against our KV)
                I will not argue for the VO, since the reasons for the defeat lay somewhat deeper than the lightweight presentation presented by you and had no primary relationship to the issue of armor penetration
                2) Regarding the initial question, yes, both tanks are MBT, but the concepts of use and theater of operations for these tanks are different, and how these tanks were used in real life is another question.
              3. Vadim Kurbatov
                Vadim Kurbatov 16 May 2018 22: 01
                0
                Shoot down the caterpillar yagdtigra and already ownerless shit capable of shooting current in a straight line and the current remains to go into the side and make a hole in it
          2. cats
            cats 16 May 2018 17: 15
            0
            Quote: nikoliski
            will not even penetrate the combined armor into the hull)

            To break it through, this hippopotamus must be brought to us.
            And Europeans are bastards not wanting to establish their infrastructure ..
            You can't shoot at abrashkas .. request
            1. nikoliski
              nikoliski 16 May 2018 17: 47
              -1
              Well, we will soon have a generation of tankers who grew up on the World of Tanks, so there will be enough brains to go around and smash it from the side (the skills of the crew, in my opinion, are just as important as the performance characteristics of a tank, when experienced Germans in '41 with their 3500 tanks (another fifteen hundred remained in Europe and Africa) were smashed to smithereens by our tank divisions, which consisted mainly of light tanks of the BT-7 type, in 41 we had 26000 tanks! and the Germans did not even have heavy tanks in 41 (against our KV)
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 16 May 2018 17: 04
      +4
      Microwave - I don't know, coffee maker and dry closet
      in Merkava there. Nobody has yet complained that they are superfluous.
      And a comfortable air conditioner, of course.
      And what? Merkava was sometimes ambushed for a week at the Lebanese border.
      The crew worked like on a submarine: two were sleeping, two were on duty.
      But there have been cases that a group of Hezbollah militants shot one
      shot with buckshot.
      1. nikoliski
        nikoliski 16 May 2018 17: 52
        -1
        A merkava with a cape (KAZ Trophy) is generally one of the best tanks at the back (dviglo in front, for additional protection of people, Jews value their soldiers) as in an infantry fighting vehicle, 6 infantrymen can be carried (well, or boxes with shells, if used as self-propelled guns)
        1. sabakina
          sabakina 16 May 2018 20: 01
          +3
          Listen, we have a mental hospital in the village of Nikolskoye in the Kostroma region. You are not from there for an hour?
  7. Vadim237
    Vadim237 16 May 2018 16: 23
    0
    The Armat platform is not yet in service, so it's too early to talk about anything.
  8. zoolu350
    zoolu350 16 May 2018 16: 24
    0
    The magazine notes that in the context of countries using nuclear weapons, the use of tanks is pointless, although the first clashes are possible with their participation

    This sentence alone speaks of the level of the article. Tanks ...... THE MOST EFFECTIVE weapon when using nuclear weapons.
  9. tralmaster.
    tralmaster. 16 May 2018 16: 32
    0
    The main thing is not the shell but who is in the shell. Our tank crews, when there was a war in Iraq, said that they would give a light to the Abrams on the T-72.
    1. Prisoner
      Prisoner 16 May 2018 17: 09
      0
      But the harmony of form and content is even better. However, it seems that the abrashka is not quite in shape. The lack of competition after the collapse of the Union played a bad joke with Amer’s defense industry.
    2. nikoliski
      nikoliski 16 May 2018 17: 21
      -1
      Our tankers are sheep-conscripts, which ones to look for, talked with 2 mechanical drivers, one who served on the T80u does not know that he has a multi-fuel gas turbine, the second argued hoarsely that his tank shoots at 35km (in all the technical characteristics there wasn’t such a thing), and he proved I am a real tanker that the rate of fire of the tank is 30 rounds per minute (well damn know comments about our conscripts)
      1. sabakina
        sabakina 16 May 2018 20: 04
        +1
        Keep observing! bully
  10. Mikhail m
    Mikhail m 16 May 2018 16: 34
    0
    the author, apparently in order to give greater conviction, modeled a certain unintentional clash near Kaliningrad in the late 2020s of Russian and American ground forces.

    We will live - we will check. But somehow I can’t believe in an “unintentional” collision.
  11. alex3075
    alex3075 16 May 2018 16: 50
    0
    Could arrange a duel in Syria. Abrams / Barmaley VS T14 / Serviceman of the SAR.
    1. nikoliski
      nikoliski 16 May 2018 17: 24
      -1
      T14 has not yet been released as a normal series, they are bragging about it, here the T90 breakthrough can be set on abrams (the benefit of the order was large, these tanks, apparently the price-quality ratio is not in favor of T14)
  12. Lesorub
    Lesorub 16 May 2018 16: 59
    +1
    in the context of countries using nuclear weapons, the use of tanks is pointless, although the first clashes are possible precisely with their participation

    Oh and expert,)) in a nuclear war no matter how relevant the tank units! )))
  13. Prisoner
    Prisoner 16 May 2018 17: 06
    0
    Everyone has long understood that there is an abrashka and what is the market price for it and what is the real price with all its pluses and minuses. But the American wants her, decrepit old woman to advertise how completely nothing is so deEvushka. winked
  14. Vard
    Vard 16 May 2018 17: 13
    0
    Key ... Near Kaliningrad .. So Ambrans are advancing .. Ours are in ambush ... And US tanks are nailing everything that is kind of hand ... From ATGMs ... To bottles with Molotov cocktail ... Well, Armata .. .. But most likely our simple tanks, so to speak ... whose guns pierce the frontal armor of Abras at a time ...
  15. Rumata-estorskii
    Rumata-estorskii 16 May 2018 17: 14
    0
    Someone was inspired in due time:

    1. sabakina
      sabakina 16 May 2018 20: 30
      +1
      And not only with us:
  16. Dezinto
    Dezinto 16 May 2018 17: 15
    +2
    And I liked the wording about Abrams (I read somewhere) - "a tower the size of a garden house doesn’t shoot rockets, another engine from the back of the garden house" - if this is damn the best tank in the world .... then I don’t even know what to tell ... recourse
    Well, add - heavy kapets! Not every bridge can stand it. The tower spins so slowly that when attacking, it will be shot several times from three different points, until it considers everyone.

    In general, objectively speaking, the tank is certainly not bad, but somehow it’s impossible to call it the best in the world .....

  17. HMR333
    HMR333 16 May 2018 17: 20
    0
    and where is the comparison ??? I read only the nonsense of the illiteracy's assumptions with nothing unreasonable and nothing compared! what sensors in abrams is it time to shit the sensor? what a stupid article? what kind of training is it better to see the landing of their chambers and the loss of grenades from the latter, then there is that preparation !!!
  18. net0103net
    net0103net 16 May 2018 17: 20
    0
    What nonsense, n * p * and * d * y * p * k * and uneducated.
  19. Machete
    Machete 16 May 2018 18: 41
    +1
    Why trifle? Sherman and he is better than Almaty.
    How can a forty-year-old 70-ton piece of iron be compared with 21st-century technology?
  20. Amateur
    Amateur 16 May 2018 19: 07
    0
    "The magazine, referring to Captain Stefan Bühler of the Swiss Association of Officers of the Armored Forces, adds that" sensors are a problem for all tanks. " And Aunt Motia at the entrance said: “All this is he *** nya. The army sergeant of Botswana told her personally.”
  21. ibn.shamai
    ibn.shamai 16 May 2018 19: 32
    0
    Yeah! Rain sensors, light sensors, humidity sensors diapers lol etc. And about the crews, this is your class! laughing
  22. Mentat
    Mentat 16 May 2018 20: 06
    0
    Quote: zoolu350
    The industrial "power" of the Russian Federation under the leadership of your partners from the Russian oligarchy is evident. Under the USSR, "Armata" or T-95 would have entered service en masse and would have burned your Merkava armored sheds in the SAR long ago.

    Where do you come from, screamers? There is an acceptance procedure for weapons; no-one in developed countries will ever begin to arm troops “in droves” in developed countries.
  23. Hiller
    Hiller 16 May 2018 20: 52
    0
    Sensors .. figuers ... weak to come to biathlon? Fighting spirit and training modern technology is strong.
  24. basal
    basal 16 May 2018 22: 05
    +1
    The opinion of the "Swiss tanker" is, well, VERY cool. Someone tell me about the Swiss armored forces? Well, at least about one of their tank !!! I will be grateful drinks
  25. Artemiy_2
    Artemiy_2 16 May 2018 22: 11
    0
    Here the comrade believes that the abrasha has 830 mm in the forehead against kinetics. But Tarasenko has other data
    1. nikoliski
      nikoliski 16 May 2018 23: 44
      -1
      And here you have an article (in the archive in the archive) about the armor of Abrams, here are excerpts about the armor of the latest model-M1A2SEP / SEPv2 / M1A1AIMv2 / FEP (2000)
      TOWER: 940-960mm from BOPS / 1310-1620mm from KS
      These figures are typical for frontal projection areas equipped with combined reservation
      1. Artemiy_2
        Artemiy_2 17 May 2018 05: 31
        0
        Understood))) https://andrei-bt.livejournal.com/715927.html
  26. The comment was deleted.
  27. Jurkovs
    Jurkovs 17 May 2018 07: 14
    0
    Abrams or Armata? National Interest publishes another "expert" opinion

    And we are once again fed this vomit.
  28. NordOst16
    NordOst16 17 May 2018 07: 48
    0
    God, what is there to compare? Abrams is a good machine that is in service, and the armata is a mythical tank of unparalleled analogues in the world. So when he will actively enter service, then we'll see
  29. kig
    kig 17 May 2018 08: 23
    0
    Another empty argument.
  30. Engineer
    Engineer 17 May 2018 10: 08
    0
    Yeah, they didn’t expect such armata in the army, not at all like that, especially after the 195th ... some hatches are worth something. As always, the crew is a consumable.
  31. pepel79
    pepel79 17 May 2018 10: 50
    0
    Quote: nikoliski
    It was a funny joke, especially with the American scorched earth tactics, first bombing, and then just come in. On the contrary, in Chechnya we took every house in Grozny, losing thousands of guys (the Americans would have simply bombed a month like Serbia the Terrible, until everyone had been there killed or would not surrender the militants) And in the Second World War, the Americans lost only 300 military and fought from 000 years with the Japanese throughout the Pacific Ocean, then in Africa and finally in Europe (but there since 41 years after Normandy only with large forces so by the way They took Italy playfully) and ours loved to attack MG44 with a cry of hurray. Do you know what kind of machine gun it is? depending on the shutter, the rate of fire reached from 42 to 1300 rounds per minute! (the PKM has only about 2000 rate of fire) the sound was continuous from the chirping of this death machine and the bullets are explosive, so among the current veterans I doubt that there are infantrymen who went more than 650 times in an infantry attack and reached Berlin without injuries (the Americans would definitely have burned the Dot first than to go to such attacks, there the soldiers would simply give up suicide with the right to do so)

    Yes, it’s some kind of jokes you don’t have ... I don’t give an assessment of the General Staff’s assault tactics, but in Grozny we fought on our territory (there is no USA) ... and despite that genocide, thousands remained in the city itself Russian people (old people and those who had nowhere to run) ... These poor people have suffered so much, and you think that you just had to bomb it like Serbia ... some kind of sadistic way to save people from suffering ...
    1. nikoliski
      nikoliski 17 May 2018 15: 31
      -1
      it’s immediately clear that you don’t know how they fought there (several guys who went through that hell already drank off one of the rooftops went) so they said that before entering the basement they threw a grenade there (it turned out to be peaceful there) and when they had seen enough of their mutilated guys ( if they were crucified raped and castrated by Chechens, then finding a family there it is not clear whether the Russians were Russian or whether the Chechens simply shot the husband and son (although they had weapons) in front of the screaming mother, so there would be such horror and nightmare as if the next time it’s better to use ethnovirus (in the United States they actively test-kill only a certain nation looking for a familiar genome in the blood) by the way, we also have anthrax that kills only mature men, but only that war was for Russia to fall apart and go bankrupt and not for a lightning victory. ... (there are silent about the numbers of losses in the first, they consider that more than in Afghanistan) in the second campaign, when we went burning everything in front of us Pinocchio and vacuum bombs and that killed 3000 people.
      1. pepel79
        pepel79 17 May 2018 16: 11
        0
        You don’t read what they write to you “I don’t give an assessment of the General Staff’s assault tactics”, respectively, and the entire leadership of the operation as a whole (both at the top and in the field), but to wipe houses with the civilian population of my country off the face of the earth is nonsense, and you are calling for this. If a terrorist is in the house, why (according to your logic) evacuate citizens and risk the lives of specialists, you must immediately bomb him ... Yes, you are a genius ...