Military Review

The death of "Kursk" - no more secrets?

358


12 August marks the anniversary of the death of the nuclear submarine Kursk, which perished in the Barents Sea in 2000. It was one of the newest and most reliable submarine cruisers. However, 118 crew members died.

Around this catastrophe, so many plausible, and not very plausible versions of what happened, that many citizens of the country did not know the truth were accounted for. The main versions of the tragedy were considered a collision with another submarine, an explosion of a rocket in one of the compartments, an explosion on a mine left over from World War II.

The official version was about the explosion of a torpedo. The government commission that conducted the investigation dwelled on this scenario, since it can most easily be mislead by ordinary people who are not familiar with the intricacies fleet.

But this version does not quite correspond to reality. The fact is that in the nose compartment, where, following the results of the investigation, an explosion of training torpedoes occurred, there were also rack torpedoes (they are just fighting ones). So what could explode if there was no combat torpedo stuffing? According to the official version, the explosion occurred as a result of leakage of hydrogen peroxide. But in order to accept it, it is necessary at the same time to admit that either completely illiterate people or suicides served on the Kursk. But since it is well known to all that the entire crew was highly qualified, then, accordingly, nothing like this could happen. Thus, this version is untenable.

Another version that does not stand up to scrutiny is the version about a blast on a mine of times of war. This can be very easily refuted. Firstly, the damage that remains from such ammunition has a characteristic shape, which is simply impossible to confuse with something else. And if it really happened, then no other versions simply would not have arisen. Secondly, the mine of those times could not cause so serious damage to the boat to cause its immediate death. In addition, the training grounds on which the exercises were carried out have been used for similar purposes for more than a decade, they have been repeatedly tested, so it’s impossible to say that a mine can still be found here. Moreover, the Kursk itself is equipped with a “mine detection path”. Thus, this version is not true.

The death of "Kursk" - no more secrets?


The third version is the most prosperous and even more proven - the assumption that the Kursk was killed in a collision with another submarine (or, to be precise, as a result of torpedoing). Most of the relatives of the dead sailors are confident that their loved ones died because the nuclear submarine Kursk was torpedoed by the American submarine Memphis. In addition, among them there are rumors that after the tragedy, the Americans wrote off a large debt to the Russians.

At the same time, the President of the Russian Federation V.Putin, speaking in one of the interviews, answering the question about what actually happened to the submarine, answered that she drowned ... By the way, the death of the Kursk was the first big accident in time finding Putin at the head of state.



The reasons for the death of the Kursk are explained by the presence of a hole in the side of the boat, as well as evidence that during the Russian exercises in the same area were American and British submarines. In addition, on the part of the ship that we managed to lift from the bottom of the sea, you can clearly see a flat round hole, and even more, the edges of this hole are bent inwards, which indicates an external impact. And some American experts even claim that such a hole is a kind of trademark of the American torpedo MK-48, which is able to pass through the steel lining thanks to a special mechanism that is on the nose and is capable of melting copper.



According to this version, the attack on the "Kursk" was carried out while tracking the US submarines "Memphis" and "Toledo" of the Russian ship.

Moreover, during the search and rescue operation until the moment when the situation was not yet controlled by the authorities, information was leaked to the media that light green rescue buoys were found near the site of the death of the Kursk, although Russians only use white and red. Another evidence of the plausibility of this version is the reception of signals for help, which took the cruiser "Peter the Great" 13-14 August. And if initially the rescuers hoped that these signals were sent from the Kursk, then later, after decoding them, it became clear that they came from a foreign submarine (they were fed by a mechanical radiator, and they are not used on Russian submarines). And the posthumous note of the captain of the submarine cruiser clearly indicates that at that time there was no one left on the ship who could ask for help.



It should also be noted that at the time when the anti-submarine squadron planes were alarmed in search of the submarine, the pilots found oil spots left by another submarine. It is clear that suspicion immediately fell on the British and Americans, whose submarines were there. But if the British zealously defended their innocence, demanding evidence from the Russians, the Americans behaved more restrained, as if they had something to hide. But the truth was that: on the seabed, rescuers found the fencing of the conning tower, which is usually installed on American submarines. Thus, from the very beginning everything was very clear, until the authorities tried to mislead the civilian population as much as possible.

A few days after the tragedy, a conversation took place between the presidents of the two states, and, obviously, they managed to come to an agreement. After a very short time, Clinton announced that the United States of America was refusing to launch a missile defense program. In addition, Russia forgave a large debt and even gave a loan of 10 billion. In addition, there are rumors that ships from America also came to carry out the operation to lift the bodies of the dead crew members and the ship's hull itself. And why were all of them awarded orders of Courage, and the captain - the Hero of Russia before the official end of the investigation? Why did not the Minister of Defense and Commander-in-Chief of the Navy resign? And in the end, why no one called the names of those responsible for the tragedy?


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358 comments
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  1. Hleb
    Hleb 10 May 2012 07: 21
    +4
    put a plus article, but no plus ... either does not immediately appear

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASRZDNstXEI
    1. Aleksey67
      Aleksey67 10 May 2012 08: 13
      +10
      As it "got" already ... How much can you be like "logs" with their Katyn and the Jews with their Holocaust? It is not typical for Russian people to "PR" on the bones of their compatriots. We remember our heroes. Prove that the amers are to blame, let them answer, and you don't need to throw shit on the fan
      1. Krilion
        Krilion 10 May 2012 14: 10
        +10
        Quote: Aleksey67
        Somehow "got" already


        offer to understand and forgive? ... maybe on May 9 you can stop celebrating? ... burn all history books? .. do you even think before writing something? ....
        1. Aleksey67
          Aleksey67 10 May 2012 14: 15
          +3
          Quote: Krilion
          offer to understand and forgive ?.

          No, you need to remember, but without "versions"
          Quote: Krilion
          maybe stop celebrating May 9? ... burn all history books?

          I leave these calls on your conscience, I did not offer this
          Quote: Krilion
          Do you even think before writing something? ....

          I think, yes. I am writing consciously
          1. Sandov
            Sandov 10 May 2012 21: 10
            +15
            A friend of the submariner voiced this version immediately after the death of the boat. Who is who and the submariners know all the best about us better than us. But the insidiousness of amers is known to all.
          2. alexdol
            alexdol 11 May 2012 20: 04
            +9
            I fully support the author Krilion! And you Aleksey67, you really need to THINK! before you say anything! I remember how you "closed" the mouths of all Russians who live on the territory of the same RUSSIA, which is temporarily called "Ukraine"! I recommend that you think carefully about these ...
        2. Odinplys
          Odinplys 10 May 2012 17: 46
          +26
          Quote: Krilion
          offer to understand and forgive? ... maybe on May 9 you can stop celebrating? ... burn all history books? .. do you even think before writing something? ....

          Suppose this is true ... by malice or not ... it doesn’t matter ...
          And what do you propose to do then ... ???
          To start a war from the USA in the conditions of utter ruin ... dooming yourself to losing in advance ... To strike a retaliation strike at nuclear weapons ... What are the options ..
          There is only one option ... to extract the maximum benefit from the current situation and, most importantly, to gain time ... for getting on your feet and re-equipping Russia ....
          Therefore, I believe, as if there weren’t ... our submarines who died ... as befits the Warriors ... provided the country ... with the necessary time ... So it is not in vain ...
          And the answer ... in case of proof ... of this version ... Do not hesitate ... will
          Memory of the dead submariners ...
          1. kasha
            kasha 10 May 2012 22: 47
            +16
            Dear OdinPlys! I completely agree with your point of view on this aspect !! At that moment, Putin had a choice to recognize torpedoing and start a nuclear fire! Or leave it like that, somehow! He is certainly well done! I did everything correctly! Saved the world from nuclear confrontation, got the maximum for the country, all the same it is the year 2000, remember !! And then, who doesn’t ask how he felt? I’m sure his finger was reaching for the red button !! Well done man !! And every swamp like a swamp kindles a quagmire! They want us again in the face !!! It is not clear how I would behave in his place !!! It’s a pity for the guys, the sailors, their eternal memory !!! But only here they are, and RUSSIAN soldiers to give their lives for the homeland! After all, soldiers do not die but turn into white cranes !!!!
            1. postman
              postman 11 May 2012 14: 55
              +6
              Quote: kasha
              Putin had a choice to recognize torpedoing and start a nuclear fire!

              Nonsense, no "Nuclear Fire" would have started.
              you try to convey it
              Quote: kasha
              He is certainly well done! I did everything correctly!
              to the relatives of the victims?
              If the fault of the Americans were recognized, then they would then receive decent compensation for lost relatives. from the same Americans.
              And Americans would look like a clown. Talk about an "evil empire" would disappear right away.
              And "licking" what has already been licked, there is no practical sense, for 12 years everything shines.
              1. kasha
                kasha 11 May 2012 17: 48
                -1
                Dear Postman !! In this case, you reason like a child !!! You do not take into account public opinion when recognizing torpedoing at the state level! This led to the collapse of the government, the institution of the president, the leveling of confidence in him, if he did not take radical measures !! The coming to power of radical politicians, in the wake of a belligerent people !! The consequences of such a scenario are highly predictable !!! This is a confrontation with the United States economically, politically, and subsequently the military aspect !!! As for the United States, it would be naive to assume that they would acknowledge the fact of a submarine clash! Since this led to significant advances in their highest team who made such a dangerous incident !!! This would lead to the loss of US authority in the world as a democratic state and pushed the world to a new arms race !! In connection with the foregoing, it makes no sense to talk about compensation to relatives on the part of the culprit's power !!! I repeat the man who decided to connect his fate with the army, the police must understand that in this profession you can die prematurely and give your life with dignity !! Otherwise, you need to go to the office for example !! And relatives understand this too! The army is not a ski trip! Your answer is extremely incomprehensible to me! And perhaps you wrote this to mislead others !!!
                1. postman
                  postman 11 May 2012 22: 26
                  +14
                  Quote: kasha
                  you reason like a child!

                  Well, you bent ...... in my year.
                  Public opinion ... in 2000?
                  A few facts:
                  -Blockade CCCP around West Berlin
                  -After the war, the Americans bombed our airfields in the Far East, shot down planes.
                  -1950 - 1953 Korean War
                  - 1962 Caribbean crisis
                  -VIETNAM WAR:
                  there were separate episodes of a direct clash between the USA and the USSR, as well as the deaths of civilians from the USSR.

                  The first battles in the skies of North Vietnam using surface-to-air missiles against US aircraft that bombed without declaring war were conducted by Soviet military specialists.

                  In 1966, the Pentagon with the approval of the President of the United States and Congress allowed commanders of aircraft carrier-strike groups (AUG) to destroy in peacetime Soviet submarinesfound within a radius of one hundred miles.
                  In 1968 year Soviet nuclear submarine K-10 in the South China Sea off the coast of Vietnam for 13 hours unnoticed at a depth of 50 meters followed under the bottom of the aircraft carrier "Enterprise" and fulfilled conditional attacks on it with torpedoes and cruise missilesat risk of destruction.

                  During the war, radio-technical intelligence ships of the USSR Pacific Fleet were actively working in the South China Sea. There were two incidents with them. In 1969, in the area south of Saigon, the "Hydrophone" ship was fired upon by South Vietnamese (US ally) patrol boats. A fire broke out, part of the equipment was out of order.
                  In another episode, the Peleng ship was attacked by American bombers. Bombs were dropped along the bow and stern of the ship.

                  On June 2, 1967, American aircraft fired at the "Turkestan" motor ship of the Far Eastern Shipping Company in the port of Kamfa. 7 people were injured, two of them died.
                  As a result of the competent actions of the Soviet representatives of the merchant fleet in Vietnam and the employees of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Americans were proved their guilt in the death of civilians. The US government has appointed families of deceased sailors a lifetime benefit payment.
                  There have been cases of damage to other merchant ships.

                  Retaliation nuclear strikes?
                  Public opinion?
                  The rise to power of radical politicians?


                  This will not lead to ordinary punches of retaliation!
                  On March 18, 1945, eight groups of American Flying Fortress bombers, accompanied by Mustang fighters, headed north from 13 to 15 above the Soviet troops on the eastern bank of the Oder River, north of the town of Kustrin. American aircraft were pursued by German Me 13 and FV 30 fighters.
                  When a group of American aircraft approached Maureen (35 km northwest of Kyustrin), at that time 6 Soviet Yak 3 fighters were in the air over the Morin area. Soviet pilots, having noticed German fighters chasing the Americans, attacked the Germans, but in turn they were attacked American fighters.
                  Soviet pilots, clearly distinguishing between American planes, evaded air combat with them, but despite this, American fighters continued to pursue Soviet planes.
                  As a result, American fighter attacks six Soviet aircraft were shot down, And two Soviet pilots died and one was seriously injured.

                  I hardly
                  Quote: kasha
                  like a child
                  reasoning.
                  Even the death of a submarine with a crew, even if it is proved that the Americans did it, is not a reason for declaring war and launching a nuclear strike.
                  But the fact that the Americans did it (if it really is), really led to 100% compensation for damage, a life pension to the relatives of the victims (by American standards), would relieve tension in society and the relatives of the victims would be calm.

                  But behind the backs of their people, behind the backs of the mothers (wives, children) of the victims, they QUIETLY agree on some sort of barter (standings) with murderers- IT IS Vile, and not far-sighted political wisdom.


                  Quote: kasha
                  Your answer is extremely incomprehensible to me! And perhaps you wrote this to mislead others !!!

                  Listen, stop carrying the blizzard and don't play their secret motivations in public, transfer to others.
                  1. kasha
                    kasha 11 May 2012 23: 13
                    -3
                    I am immensely grateful for the interesting facts you cited, but you, as a convinced democrat, Westerner, and Putin's hater! (Although it’s interesting to me who exactly in your place did you want to see ??) You contradict yourself, it’s called DANGEROUS CONFRONTATION !!! In 2000, Russia and the Russian people could not allow this to happen !! Because of one eyeliner! The leader, and not only he is sober, assessed the situation, and did the right thing in this aspect !! And as for years and mind, there is folk wisdom !! And then your hints are not appropriate until you have accurate evidence! And so the urine of God's dew !!!
                    1. postman
                      postman 12 May 2012 00: 58
                      +5
                      I'm definitely not
                      Quote: kasha
                      Democrat, Westerner, and Putin Hater
                      .
                      Theoretically, I am more impressed by the works of Prince PA Kropotkin (intelligence officer, prisoner, fugitive, emigrant and "good-natured" anarchist).
                      In practice (political structure), I am inclined to model implemented in Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft.

                      Quote: kasha
                      Although I'm interestedтbut whom
                      -no such people at the present stage, unfortunately. But certainly not from .....
                      It would be better if the military.

                      Quote: kasha
                      Contradict yourself
                      There is no contradiction. The above list (by no means complete) shows that DANGEROUS CONFRONTATION did not lead to armed conflict and the exchange of attacks. Yes, and could not bring.
                      Both here and there, by no means fools ruled and understood what the blow of retaliation could lead to.

                      Quote: kasha
                      The leader and not only he is sober, appreciated

                      Yeah. Sober, almost 5 days of stupor.
                      KING: "... You tell me. What happened with the submarine?
                      (Tell me. What happened to the submarine? ")
                      PUTIN: "she drowned" (TRANSLATOR: "It sunk" - she sank)

                      Quote: kasha
                      And about the years and the mind is folk wisdom

                      I do not quite understand, you want to compete with me "mind"?

                      Quote: kasha
                      And then your hints are not appropriate until you have accurate evidence!

                      Let me draw your attention to the fact that "hints" (blizzard) YOU USED:
                      Quote: kasha
                      maybe you wrote this to mislead others !!!

                      But not me.

                      Quote: kasha
                      until you have accurate
                      ....And do you have?

                      Quote: kasha
                      And so the urine of God's dew !!!
                      - It is nice that you know the folklore. Only this is out of place.

                      "Urinate in the eyes - all God's dew"
                      In ancient Egypt, human urine was actively used as a medicine ... the son of an Egyptian pharaoh suffered from blindness for 10 years, which no local healer could cure. In the city of Buto, the oracle once predicted to him that the woman’s eyes should be washed with urine, never previously not cheating on her husband. And ....
                      His wife’s urine didn’t help! As, incidentally, the urine is still a good hundred ladies.
                      Sass.v in this way he achieved his recovery (most likely a placebo effect, but nonetheless). As a result, the son of the pharaoh drove out his unfaithful wife, and married the one who cured him.


                      Or are you an admirer of urinoterrapia?
                      1. kasha
                        kasha 12 May 2012 02: 13
                        -1
                        Well, at the expense of competing with your mind! Where am I to you, the world-wide recognized scientific genius ?? SELF-ASSESSMENT is clearly overpriced (also an academician to me !!) No urine unfortunately I flush into the toilet! Your point of view, if you would, or maybe there wouldn’t be, they say so in the markets, and in the kitchen with your wife or with a drunk friend! But when you have YARSA behind you, and Peshinga and Tridene have been instructed before you, such arguments as yours are just an anecdote! I see you just bang everything and everything! It’s just that they’re not doing everything right, if only everything is correct, paradise !! Go google find me more arguments! Professor
                      2. postman
                        postman 12 May 2012 02: 37
                        0
                        Quote: kasha
                        kasha

                        What a slippery you are.
                      3. zol1
                        zol1 12 May 2012 12: 40
                        -3
                        Porridge, do not brew porridge, otherwise you will have to sip later! And the "postman" is right in all respects! So keep licking redfin!
                      4. Docker76
                        Docker76 14 May 2012 02: 25
                        +2
                        Quote: zol1
                        So keep licking

                        anyone that hurts speaks about that tongue tongue tongue
                      5. Docker76
                        Docker76 14 May 2012 02: 21
                        +1
                        Theoretically, I am more impressed by the works of Prince PA Kropotkin (intelligence officer, prisoner, fugitive, emigrant and "good-natured" anarchist)

                        I think this is the future of the swamps)))
                        PS I am also a Pioneer !!!! yes
                  2. DERWISH
                    DERWISH 12 May 2012 02: 37
                    0
                    POSSIBLE THIS IS REALLY CORRECT !!!! YOU +
                  3. Reader
                    Reader 15 May 2012 02: 44
                    +5
                    I absolutely agree with the Postman! The situation had to be used to the maximum benefit for the country. To openly admit the fact of torpedoing our submarine by the Americans and demand an international (so that we are not condemned later in bias) investigation (I would also demand that the captain of the American boat be handed over for trial in our country). It would be fair in relation to their people, to the victims and their relatives, in the end. And I would not have to say with a crooked grin to the whole world that "... she drowned." Bastard, when I remember this vile face ... angry And the people would be completely for the President, such unanimous support to the first person would be for the first time in many, many years. And the fish-eyed could remain in the memory of the people as a true patriot, and not a traitor, as now. Shame! Pain! And a shame! And for our sailors - the land rest in peace!
                2. Pessimist
                  Pessimist 13 May 2012 21: 46
                  +2
                  Quote: kasha
                  This would lead to the loss of US authority in the world as a democratic state and pushed the world to a new arms race !! In connection with the foregoing, it makes no sense to talk about compensation to relatives on the part of the culprit's power !!!

                  Funny comments! How old are you, friend ??? Has the arms race (from the US side) stopped ??? Is there fewer American military bases in the world? A direct "hit" on the United States would have brought Russia good political results at that moment, especially if there was an evidence base in the form of material evidence! Our government just turned out to be "liquid", and this is sad ... Blessed memory of the guys ...
              2. DERWISH
                DERWISH 12 May 2012 02: 28
                +2
                And Americans would look like a clown. Talk about an "evil empire" would disappear right away.
                And to "lick" what has already been licked, there is no practical sense, for 12 years everything would be flattering VV PUTIN I THINK I MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE !!! !!! although from my point of view, ONCE AMERA HAVE BEEN BELIEVED YOURSELF IT WOULD BE MORE SERIOUS TO PRESENT !!!! ETERNAL MEMORY TO THE DEAD !!!
          2. Krilion
            Krilion 11 May 2012 01: 36
            +5
            Quote: OdinPlys
            Suppose this is true ... by malice or not ... it doesn’t matter ... And what do you propose to do then ... ??? Start a war from the USA in the conditions of utter ruin ... dooming yourself to losing beforehand .. . Strike a retaliation strike at nuclear weapons ... What are the options ... There is only one option ... to extract the maximum benefit from the current situation and, most importantly, to gain time ... for getting on your feet and re-equipping Russia ....


            no one calls for war, because even in the American submarine version there was only a local incident and not an action. aimed at the beginning of full-scale hostilities .. this is time ... secondly, the perpetrators of the incident should be clearly identified regardless of the person ... thirdly, money should be stripped from the Americans for the lost submarines, as well as funds collected for payment of pensions and benefits to all relatives of the deceased ... and this is the minimum ...
          3. carver
            carver 11 May 2012 09: 44
            0
            Yes, then he did the right thing, but now you need to open the whole truth to the whole world. We want to know this, and for many we would be a good example of who and what America is, otherwise this meanness will always be covered by them. And even so, missile defense is beginning to advance.
          4. ytqnhfk
            ytqnhfk 12 May 2012 07: 55
            0
            I want to say that a bright memory for sailors would not happen to officers; they died for their family homeland and a peaceful sky above our heads! REMEMBER ETERNAL! Was at the monument very beautiful, I remembered!
      2. Dimon
        Dimon 10 May 2012 15: 01
        -19
        Quote: Aleksey67
        How long can you be like "logs" with their Katyn and Jews with their Holocaust?

        So do not be likened, ruslim, but no one is likened to you ...
        1. Aleksey67
          Aleksey67 10 May 2012 15: 08
          +11
          Quote: Dimon
          do not be likened, ruslim

          And for this you fag festering, however the Internet ... but I will try to figure you out and drive to Israel
          1. Dimon
            Dimon 10 May 2012 15: 46
            -18
            hear pidril epan, Dimon Andreenko my name is, come and sew up your throat will slam ...
            1. azgard
              azgard 10 May 2012 16: 55
              +17
              Dimon,
              if you don’t see Russia, then what kind of uya you are sitting here on a Russian site and writing in Russian ??? do you live in Israel ?? so sit there and keep quiet and we will deal with our problems here !!!
              1. Dimon
                Dimon 10 May 2012 17: 17
                -3
                Russia has nothing to do with Magadan itself, it’s just that some residents ** are. would pass by, but saw a collision ...
            2. 11Goor11
              11Goor11 10 May 2012 18: 55
              +7
              You're so brave that you’re already hiding under a proxy ...
      3. komTMG
        komTMG 10 May 2012 19: 50
        +9
        Take it. Read the book.V.D Ryazantsev

        "In the wake of death."
        The book of Vice Admiral VD Ryazantsev, Deputy Chief of the Main Staff of the Russian Navy for Combat Training, a member of the Government Commission for Investigating the Causes and Circumstances of the Kursk Submarine Disaster, is dedicated to the history of the service and the death of this submarine. Rich factual material, unknown or incomprehensible to non-specialists, is presented in detail, consistently and in an easily accessible form.
        This study provides comprehensive explanations for the chain of fatal events that led to the death of the K-2000 Kursk submarine in August 141. The author lists all those whose negligence and neglect of official duties caused this heavy loss for the entire fleet. The author especially dwells on the analysis of the incompetent and incompetent actions of the rescue forces of the Northern Fleet in the course of an inept and belated operation to assist a boat in disaster.
        The author also pays due attention to debunking the vile myth of the "American torpedo attack", as well as the entire mountains of deliberate lies accompanying this myth that were born by the command of the Northern Fleet in order to conceal their own guilt in the death of the newest submarine missile carrier. Apparently, this is why the book, inconvenient for the influential military elite, written by the author back in 2005, has not yet been published in print and therefore is little known in the homeland.
        Leave the guys at rest!
        http://www.murders.ru/Kyrs-s-s-sk.html
        1. nickel
          nickel 10 May 2012 22: 09
          +3
          Thanks for the link.
          1. Bear52
            Bear52 11 May 2012 02: 00
            +3
            I join: downloaded and read with pleasure = respect! smile
        2. illarion
          illarion 11 May 2012 12: 45
          +2
          I have a question about this hole: it’s in a lightweight case, but what’s strong? After all, if there was an explosion, then only inside.
          1. komTMG
            komTMG 11 May 2012 14: 57
            +6
            Read the book. Spend a little time. Questions will disappear immediately. To the holes. Questions to people with big stars on uniform will appear.
            At that time I served on the ships of the SF. And I remember all the window dressing and tyranny of command.
            For example. Collect all the crews of the ships of the 2 divisions of anti-submarine ships, and 7 operational squadrons on the parade ground adjacent to the quays. Leaving only the guard on the ladder. And the ship attendant. Having removed the special watch БЧ5 for survivability and the duty officer on БЧ5. And 2 hours to talk about how he will deal with hazing.
            The question is why?
            The ship is alive while people are on it!
        3. postman
          postman 12 May 2012 01: 53
          +1
          Quote: komTMG
          Take it. Read the book.V.D Ryazantsev

          thanks, read.
          Gorshkov, he clearly does not like
          But the cause (s) of the death of the submarine remained unconfirmed.
          "It is quite obvious that the death of the K-141" Kursk "occurred as a result of miscalculations in the design of the nuclear submarine 949 A of the project, its combat systems and weapons, as a result of the low professional training of the officers of the headquarters, directorates of the Navy and the seafarers of the fleets
          These are only his assumptions, not confirmed either by calculations or by investigative experiments.

          The dead on the submarine, anyway. But alive click to be sure that they will not quit, as then.
          And relatives want to know the truth.

          In the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, no one canceled the honor courts of officers.
        4. DERWISH
          DERWISH 12 May 2012 02: 44
          +1
          SO THAT SAME THEN AMERA THROUGH AFTER THIS ???? DO NOT SEE KURSK SEA AND THE TEAM TO ACCUSE THE NEGLIGENCE !!!! ALL THIS IT ON THE APPLES NEVER HAS BEEN AND WILL NOT BE !!!!!
        5. Pessimist
          Pessimist 13 May 2012 22: 00
          +2
          Thank! Good link!
      4. George IV
        George IV 11 May 2012 01: 13
        +6
        It is not typical for the Russian people to show disrespect to other nations, calling the Poles "logs", the faiths - the Jews, and the Americans - the Amers.
        1. Vadim555
          Vadim555 11 May 2012 01: 27
          +3
          Quote: Georg iv

          Foreman avatar
          Offline
          Georg iv UA Today, 01:13
          - 0 +
          It is not typical for the Russian people to show disrespect to other nations, calling the Poles "logs", the faiths - the Jews, and the Americans - the Amers.
          О


          During the war the Germans were called dismissive-Hans and Fritz.
          The war ended in victory and the Germans again became Germans for us.
          Now there is a war against us again, so, order them to click officially?
          This war will end again with our Victory, then we will think about how to call the rest.
          And now, alas.
          1. George IV
            George IV 11 May 2012 16: 43
            +1
            With such reasoning, the "war" will never end for you.
            And I do not advise you to consider demagoguery on the "Internet fronts" as active hostilities.
            And to compare that war with what you call "war" is somehow blasphemous in relation to veterans. For them, the war was definitely not a reason to offend the nation. We are not Anglo-Saxons, this is not our method.
            1. Vadim555
              Vadim555 11 May 2012 17: 17
              +3
              Quote: Georg iv
              And to compare that war with what you call "war" is somehow blasphemous in relation to veterans


              No one compares the Second World War with the war that is being waged against us now.
              Now there is a "civilized" war.
              The result of any war is a reduction in the population in the first place.
              How much has the population of the former USSR been reduced over the past 25 years?
              Put yourself the right question and try to answer it yourself and many questions will disappear.
        2. DERWISH
          DERWISH 12 May 2012 02: 53
          +3
          AMERICA LET'S HAPPY THAT THEY ARE NAMED AFTER ALL OF THEIR WORLD TRANSACTIONS AT HITLER'S DIFFERENCES AND THEN THE EASY WERE !!!!!!! AND THE RUSSIANS ARE NOT CALLED ANYTHING BECAUSE RUSSIAN ALWAYS !!!!! AND THE WORLD LIVING HAS NEVER APPLYED BECAUSE EVER ALWAYS RECOGNIZED WITH ANY NATION AND ANY PEOPLE !!!! ONLY M MAYERS CAN REWRITE THE HISTORY AND ONE TWO 1 PLACE ONLY TO WAIT ONE LONG TIME. ? OR I AM NOT RIGHT ?????:
    2. Hleb
      Hleb 10 May 2012 08: 20
      +11
      Thank you Valery Boval for the article! We must not forget about this. And do not pay attention if such articles are called "PR on the bones"
      1. 755962
        755962 10 May 2012 13: 48
        +12
        2 weeks after the disaster, despite initial denials, the American special services admit in the NY Times that one of their submarines, Memphis, was indeed in the zone to observe the Kursk exercises. At the same time, it becomes known that the CIA director, George Tenett, secretly arrived in Moscow 3 days after the death of Kursk.
        A few days later, America cancels its Russian debt, while it provides a loan of 10 billion dollars. Someday all the secret will come true! Eternal memory to the dead sailors!
        1. Delta
          Delta 10 May 2012 17: 06
          -3
          Well, it was. And yes, arrived. AND? which of this?
          1. teves
            teves 10 May 2012 20: 33
            -3
            I read the article and comments of smart and not quite people and still did not understand - why should the Americans torpedo a Russian boat? Maybe they did "make friends"? And the most important thing: everyone somehow elegantly bypasses the question of Putin in this hard-hitting story! Well, everyone was silent about him? Maybe Vladimir Vladimirovich will eventually tell the truth to his people? ...
            1. Delta
              Delta 10 May 2012 21: 18
              +1
              and what do you think is true? if it was not torpedoed
        2. veryalone
          veryalone 11 May 2012 17: 17
          -4
          Delirium from beginning to end
          1. US intelligence agencies cannot influence the press in any way
          2. The United States did not forgive any debt of the Russian Federation
          3. What is this SECRET visit. that everyone knows about?
    3. number1
      number1 11 May 2012 15: 10
      -3
      The biggest minus is that the bombers did not understand why the explosion occurred. request
      1. Delta
        Delta 11 May 2012 15: 29
        -1
        this is where you got that you didn’t understand why the explosion occurred? the explosion occurred in a torpedo. And they found a torpedo launcher, which was spoiled, which made it possible to draw a definite conclusion - its own torpedo
        1. number1
          number1 11 May 2012 16: 36
          0
          This is understandable.
          Found the place of the explosion
          Restored the sequence of events
          But they could not determine "what caused the torpedo to explode improperly"
          As I understand it from the film - an official investigation into the book of the former gene. Ustinov’s prosecutor, a link to which was given by a respected Murano, realized that a torpedo had exploded, but could not understand why.
          If you know why the explosion occurred, tell us.
          1. Delta
            Delta 11 May 2012 17: 48
            +11
            I already told you here, obviously you have not seen. Of course, no one can say this with 100% accuracy, however, taking into account all the circumstances, the features of the peroxide torpedo, the design features of the Antey project and the level of training of the crew for handling the peroxide torpedo, we can conclude that the torpedo exploded due to an accident removing the safety stopper (faucet), which must be unambiguously closed when loading the torpedo into the torpedo tube. This conclusion can be calculated using the following data:
            1. The first explosion occurred, in which the torpedo tube collapsed and the training torpedo exploded (not the warhead, which it does not have, exploded, but the torpedo fuel mixed with an oxidizing agent). In the first explosion, everyone who was in the first compartment died, because pressure on the human body more than 2 kg / cm2 is fatal. A torpedo in a confined space created a pressure of up to 10 kg per cm2.
            2. Everything would be fine and the boat would come up with the flooded first compartment (the buoyancy margin allowed quite), but there is one BUT here - the design of this boat is such that the gearbox is in the second compartment. And again, everything would be fine, but the designers recommended that the fleet depressurize 1 and 2 compartments during torpedo fire, i.e. make them temporarily adjacent (so that the pressure during torpedo fire would not be detrimental to submariners in the first compartment), thus putting the boat on the brink of death initially, because anything could happen during torpedo fire. As we recall, the CP in the second compartment and there everyone was shell-shocked (even if not deadly) by the blast wave that passed through the ventilation mains. Therefore, no one steered the boat. It is easy to calculate (albeit approximately) for those 2 minutes that separated the first explosion from the second how much the boat absorbed water through the destroyed torpedo tube. These are hundreds of tons of water, from which the boat went to the bottom, with an angle of incidence of up to 40 degrees, which caused the contact of the torpedo tubes with combat torpedoes with the ground, their crushing and subsequent explosion. It was possible to purge from the 9th compartment, there is such an opportunity, but for this a team from the 2nd should have gone, which did not happen. If the angle of incidence of the boat was 20-30 degrees, things would not have come to the torpedo tubes and it would have simply laid down without an explosion.

            As you know, the official version says that the first explosion caused a fire, which is why the rest of the torpedoes on the racks warmed up. BUT at the same time it is noted that there are no traces of fire on the remaining intact and on the destroyed torpedoes. Hence the conclusion that she collided with the ground, and not due to a fire, detonation occurred
            1. a_lex
              a_lex 11 May 2012 19: 15
              +2
              Thank you. Briefly and to the point.
            2. number1
              number1 11 May 2012 21: 04
              0
              Got it.
              Thank you.
            3. Sermyaga
              Sermyaga 11 May 2012 21: 48
              +4
              According to claim 1, the destruction of a torpedo in a torpedo tube could not lead to disaster because the fuel components are already in the torpedo tanks and thus reduce the force of the explosion on the tube itself, which, by the way, is comparable to the strong submarine body, and this is a very strong steel. Thus, the reason for the powerful explosive effect on the shelving torpedoes and the emergence of a catastrophic volumetric fire in the compartment could be only one thing - a direct, almost head-on-head collision with an American submarine, which could cause instant destruction of both the submarine’s hull and the ill-fated torpedo tubes and of course the torpedoes and possibly the nearest shelving (this is the second explosion). Consider the displacement of both submarines and you will understand that the force of impact at a speed of even 7-8 knots is just hellish. The issue of survival of the adversary in this case is a separate conversation - at least his parking in the Norwegian fjords was clearly recorded and satellite images were embossed in newspapers.

              According to claim 2, that the bulkhead door opened is complete nonsense. And why actually it was necessary to open it? This boat, what - the period of the Second World War or what? Take the existing combat documents on the use of submarine weapons and you will understand, this could not be. Otherwise, the crew of the submarine is not professional. No one has canceled the technical task for the construction of images of military equipment, and therefore no supposedly advice from the military-industrial complex can take place after construction. Or can the plant make its own changes to the TTZ at its discretion? It’s ridiculous.
              And one more thing from history. In the fall of 1986, a catastrophe occurred in the Atlantic waters, relatively close to the shores of North America, from the Soviet apl K-219. Several submariners died, the rest were rescued, but the boat sank. The reason is the same, a clash with the American. True, it’s slippery, but the rocket in the mine exploded, and its mass is much larger than the torpedo. After long fires in the 4th compartment, the boat began to take water uncontrollably and lose buoyancy. It must be said that in this case, the Merikos also quickly agreed with the Gorbachevs and then also sent behind the scenes to the Union of the most gallant prince.
              In general, the facts of collisions of striped stars are numerous.
              And there was no k-141 torpedo - these are idle inventions of French journalists.
              In general, it is necessary to use the terminology more carefully, dear, otherwise it seems that you are a one-sided person aware.
              1. Delta
                Delta 11 May 2012 22: 57
                +1
                "fuel components in torpedo containers" - translate. And where should they be, actually?)))

                Collision “Los Angeles” head-on with “Antaeus” - death for the first. So it was with the "Grayling" and "Baton Rouge", which were not subject to restoration. At the same time, our "Kostroma" and "Borisoglebsk" continued their service .. How so?

                where was Memphis? in the fjords? .................

                item 2 and complete nonsense. I tell you what is prescribed by the boat's designer, and you about your own conclusions and your own logic. This is exactly how it is prescribed to conduct torpedo firing on the Antaeus - making compartments 1 and 2 communicable. Have you served on a boat for this project? in which warhead?

                About K-219: where is the evidence of the collision? American film Hostile Waters? yes, serious proof))) What Britanov said about the collision version, you know? so do not mold your own wishful thinking. At the same time, you again do not want to remember that it was with this rocket that there were problems throughout the entire campaign. By the way, K-219 had the same accident with a rocket explosion a couple of years before its death, then one person died. The missile shaft was simply welded up there and then it went out to sea with 15 missiles.

                About terminology: caught in illiteracy? Where? especially after the fuel components are "already" in the containers of the torpedo)))
                1. Sermyaga
                  Sermyaga 12 May 2012 00: 52
                  +4
                  I served on the TK-20 in the first crew under the command of the captain Tisetskiy A.S. (Peace be upon him) in warhead-2.
                  The bulkhead door was still constipated, but the inter-compartment flaps of the ship's ventilation system between the 1st and 2nd were open. However, that was enough to cut down the CPU.
                  In addition to Memphis, Toledo was still spinning. For example, Memphis in Bergen depicted a sufferer to avert his eyes, and Toledo was strenuously hiding where it was not clear.
                  There was no forehead in the forehead, I thickened it. But just like on K-219 (the mine with that rocket was not brewed there, one of KSU my classmate, almost assigned there to BS-2, told me this was all in Gadzhievo, and I was in Estonia at that time, simply abnormally, but regularly drained from the vapors from the current tanks of the rocket - since the Britons, being cool at reprisal, could not fail, and not going to sea for technical reasons then equaled a crime, and they dried up the mine, fearing reprisal of the KRLF. -2 I wasn’t from ballistics but from krylatchik. One clever uncle from the members of the state commission k-219 - caperanga Drobot - spoke out to us in the spirit that psychologically he was not ready for abnormal things, like that if he were ballistic to the bone, he could personally technically decide everything and so relied on the foreman of the start team on midshipman, that is, the materiel himself did not know well. Well, these are the old man’s maxims, you can smile at him, but still ...) and so .. like on k-219 there was a collision, then collapse and explosion. Doesn't it seem strange that a 30-ton rocket detonating did not destroy the mine? But it pierced all the holes in it and part of the CT with sea water, once in the compartment, caused a fire in the 4th. On the network you can find a photo of k-219 in the surface and see a dent and gap in the hull. The mine cover is the same, ay ... completely.
                  Cap. 1st rank Drobot in recent years served as a teacher in the CA in Paldiski (well, back in those years before the collapse of the USSR), in his track record in the Navy, was the post of submarine commander of project 667-a and of course in Gadzhievo, a graduate of Lenkom. So he returned after working in this commission and shared his thoughts with us, we then studied at the sixth building of the Shark in Paldiski. They were shown to them in Moscow close-up shots of the damaged side, and his associates believed that the light traces of external influence were a scraping, so to speak, of the material of the fairings of the GAS of the American square. In small pictures and from a different angle to the K-219 on the network, this is difficult to notice. And cases of collisions earlier before K-219 were available and even documented. You yourself agreed with this and even gave examples.
                  About the prescription ... I would not argue like you. An unwritten recommendation, even for salvo firing. Do you understand the difference? Then this is a big question for "Rubin" and for the state military acceptance. And it is they who bear their share of the responsibility. By the way, where is their answer for everything? The Prosecutor General retouched.
                  In general, the network has a number of serious materials analyzing that tragedy with K-141. I do not pretend to be anything. Only my opinion. I hope you do not provide anyone with a personal opinion? Although we all have the right to give estimates. If my epithets hurt you so much, then I apologize for the excessive emotionality - I myself am a submariner in the past and take it to heart.
                  All to you.
                  1. Sermyaga
                    Sermyaga 12 May 2012 02: 16
                    +1
                    The depth of immersion of strategists on the patrol route is 40 plus or minus 5 meters. The shtatnik walked from above - having lost ours, and when tracking it often — he tried to find k-219, hooked it on the bottom, there was a slight blow there, so that the missile tanks were depressurized and the CT burst mixed. In the lower, so to speak, hemisphere in the bow of the submarine there is a fairing GAS. Like that.
                    What am I doing? The possibility of collision is very great. bearing in mind the impudence and shamelessness of the Merikos. But ... for the sake of the dead guys it is worth saying that an incredible and tragic set of circumstances led to the death. They can be put together in a heap - it’s easy, they are all expressed. I attribute the latter to K-141.
                    1. Sermyaga
                      Sermyaga 12 May 2012 02: 43
                      +1
                      By the way. True, you know that submarine cases are rubber coated on the outside to reduce noise. I remember in the 80s when I started in Gremikha, I had to see returning boats from the campaigns with spots of paint in the cutting area. These are traces from the discovery of their state pl. They threw our special signaling devices with a dye, like what we had under the name of PCB, a cloud of paint covering a decent space covered the rksn and methyl. This could only happen after we discovered ours with the help of a series of RPGs dropped from Orions during an anti-submarine search.
                      So this rubber absorbed great and traces of collisions easily remained on it. It turns out that the noise of the 667-A and 667-B projects was not up to par since they were found.
                      Not always, fortunately. I propose to refresh your memory and recall the information about Operation Atrina. Its implementation could lay in the motivation of the Merikos to infiltrate our thrones for the purpose of tracking, new reasons, because the 945s have better stealth.
                    2. Delta
                      Delta 12 May 2012 10: 08
                      0
                      nevertheless, I do not consider the opinion about the collision to be true even if only because those depths initially did not give the American a chance for close contact. I would have stood in his place for twenty miles
                    3. stjrm
                      stjrm 22 January 2013 00: 43
                      0
                      2. A depth of 40 meters, for a ship like Kursk, this is considered a safe depth from the point of view of a collision with a surface object, so the BS is not carried at such depths. Maybe mixed up with a start depth of 45 plus / minus 5 meters. Therefore, when surfacing under the periscope, they always try to reduce the ascent time from this depth to the periscope. I don’t know how on Shark, I didn’t serve, but there is also a memo for the VO and the Watch Commander on the BDR on the Civil Defense Commission in this regard. Even when they get into a session near Parvan, the depth is more than 45 meters, but close to the atom, in case you can quickly swim up a bit when you receive a signal to use weapons.

                      I read you brothers and I wonder right away ... Either you all forgot what you were taught, or you didn’t learn at all, but judging by your mistakes and not knowing some order of things, you never stood on the go ....)
                  2. Delta
                    Delta 12 May 2012 10: 06
                    0
                    "Shark" and "Antey" are two fundamentally different projects, don't you think?
                    I did not talk about the bulkhead doors, but if you yourself admit that the ventilation was open, could this be the reason for the penetration of the blast wave from the first explosion into the second compartment and cause, if not death, then severe concussion of the personnel of the second compartment and cause its exit from the side? in my opinion quite. Why "Toledo" was "hidden in an unknown place"? and it should have been revealed to the whole world ??? why? why the hell would our submarines be suddenly shown to the whole world for viewing ??? and American. The submarine was conceived as a hidden vessel (in my opinion, Peter the Great called it that way). Of course, I admit that there are many cases of collisions. But does this mean that any accident should be attributed to a collision? How much does the Los Angeles GUS track our submarines?

                    About design features: questions were addressed to Rubin because Rubinovs were in the state commission. Like naval commanders (in quotation marks). Will Popov make himself guilty if he was on the commission?

                    I do not deprive you of the right to an opinion, especially since they expressed it unlike many here professionally and without unnecessary fabrication.
                  3. stjrm
                    stjrm 22 January 2013 00: 33
                    0
                    1. R-27 rocket, the one that at the "basics" it weighs about 14,5 tons ..... (in the kit U)
                    You forgot a lot from what you were taught .....)
              2. DERWISH
                DERWISH 12 May 2012 03: 03
                0
                YOU + SOBERLY DISCUSS good
            4. DERWISH
              DERWISH 12 May 2012 03: 02
              0
              Nonsense !!!! YOU CAN THINK THE KURSK FIRST-ORDERS MANAGED !!!! IN SUCH A TEAM MORE THAN ON THE APL 100 EVERYTHING CHECKED EVERYONE !!! WHAT ARE YOU DADY ???
              1. Delta
                Delta 12 May 2012 10: 09
                0
                yes, everywhere we have everything double-checked and continuous accidents
    4. Kite
      Kite 11 May 2012 20: 30
      +1
      In vain +, but oh well. Nothing new, no facts, no versions. That torpedo Mark-48, then the wreckage of someone else's cabin. There is a hole, but the Mark-48 is a homing torpedo, in front of it is a matrix of GUS hydrophones and they are in a soft compound. There is no "armor-piercing" head, and the torpedo itself is undermined by diving under the keel of the target, so it is more effective.
      1. Kite
        Kite 11 May 2012 21: 02
        +1
        P.S. But this version is more thorough: http://zavtra.ru/cgi/veil/data/zavtra/01/400/31.html
        1. Pessimist
          Pessimist 13 May 2012 22: 26
          0
          Iron version!
  2. Sarus
    Sarus 10 May 2012 08: 05
    +14
    Memory to our guys ..
    I really would not want to know after 30-50 that Kursk was really torpedoed by a foreign submarine ...
    PS
    It will be even sadder to feel that our government did not respond at that time ...
    1. dan-frya
      dan-frya 10 May 2012 09: 42
      +9
      or maybe we’ll find out what answered ... because otherwise we would have already been erased by shopping mall any unrequited provocation tends to repeat and intensify. but it wasn’t.
      1. kostiknet
        kostiknet 10 May 2012 16: 21
        +1
        Quote: dan-frya

        or maybe we’ll find out what answered ...

        I haven't heard of the drowned "dishes" of the Yakindos, or their hangers-on (which is a pity) request
    2. Vito
      Vito 10 May 2012 12: 08
      +3
      Sarus Greetings. Speaking of the version with a torpedo attack. I watched the pre-election television debates of VV Zhirinovsky with an opponent from Edra. SO there Zhirinovsky publicly stated that KURSK received a direct hit by a torpedo (I quote verbatim). Of course, I understand that V.V.ZH is still the same interlocutor, but you must admit that such statements are not thrown, especially people with such DUTIES!
      1. Jabara
        Jabara 10 May 2012 15: 45
        +1
        Quote: Vito
        but you must admit, such statements are not thrown, especially people with such DUTIES!

        The Russian bureaucrats NEVER answered for their words, why would they not blurt out! am And Zhirik is still that clown - everything is allowed to him! fellow

        Delusional vyser Valera Boval is definitely a MINUS! To stupid comments of would-be potsriots - MINUS-MINUS-MINUS !!!! As much as you all would not like that the death of the Kursk was on the conscience of the United States or Britain, but the fact remains that the boat died due to the negligence of the command of the fleet and its crew. And do not refer to pretentious statements like:
        But since everyone knows that the entire crew was highly qualified,

        You can declare anything you want, justifying your inconsistency, stupidity, tyranny. fool

        In the magazine "Morskoy Sbornik" at the very beginning of the 2000s, there was a very competent article with a TRUE version of the death of "Kursk", without this anti-American, stupid, hysterical schizophrenia. And the version is this:
        A hydrogen explosion occurred in the first compartment, in which the entire personnel of the compartment died instantly. The explosion caused a fire, which after 135 seconds raised the temperature in the compartment so that it detonated the entire ammunition. Where did hydrogen come from? The fact is that, on this project, just in the first compartment there is a large battery. During operation, the battery produces hydrogen, which is automatically removed from the compartment. Manual removal is also provided. This process is called battery ventilation. Regardless of whether the automation was turned on or not (what if it breaks down?), There is a watch of the 1st compartment, which is obliged to check the hydrogen content of the accumulator well every 30 minutes. And if the hydrogen content is approaching a critical point, it must manually turn on the system.
        Hydrogen gives an explosive mixture at a concentration of 4 to 78 percent, that is, if the concentration is above 78 percent, there will be no explosion, below 4 percent, the same will not happen. And for a set of 4 percent - to make the so-called explosive gas - at least 12 hours of intensive operation of the battery without ventilation should pass. That is, from the moment the boat entered the sea, most likely no one was watching the ventilation. So much for the pure guilt of personnel.


        As you can see, the version is believable. And the fact speaks in her favor, it was this one compartment that was cut off and left at the bottom of the sea. I see no other reasons.
        1. volcano
          volcano 10 May 2012 17: 10
          +3
          garbage article and your comment is the same. I can say one thing about the article. What does it mean that the guilty are not punished? How will you punish them? If it's Americans. And how will you tell the people about this in the president's place? Kursk was sunk by an American submarine, and we will not do anything, so what? Or "Ama's starred them for this now"? that's how wars start. The sailors are immensely sorry for their families, children, parents, but what can the country's leadership do if they know for certain what happened? So I don’t have to drive it.
          As for you, dear Jabara. With what fright the crest drives Russian sailors. it is there in the steppes of Ukraine that maybe non-professionals in the Navy serve you. But we don’t need to insult our people. And you don’t need to quote any nonsense from magazines either. At that time, everyone wrote who was in a big deal, and the leadership only did what supported all sorts of versions, even delusional ones, if only someone would not seriously dig up the truth. And the whole trouble is that this time the truth really could become a detonator of something really scary. Neither Putin nor the pro-government nor the Navy commander is to blame for the fact that this happened. and precisely because the leadership of the fleet and the country immediately knew that what had happened it acted exactly as it acted.
          1. Jabara
            Jabara 10 May 2012 18: 31
            +3
            Quote: volkan
            As for you, dear Jabara. With what fright the crest drives Russian sailors. it is there in the steppes of Ukraine that maybe non-professionals in the Navy serve you. But we don’t need to insult our people. And you don’t need to quote any nonsense from magazines either. At that time, everyone wrote who was in a big deal, and the leadership only did what supported all sorts of versions, even delusional ones, if only someone would not seriously dig up the truth. And the whole trouble is that this time the truth really could become a detonator of something really scary. Neither Putin nor the pro-government nor the Navy commander is to blame for the fact that this happened. and precisely because the leadership of the fleet and the country immediately knew that what had happened it acted exactly as it acted.

            In short! There’s nothing to comment on! Dumb idiotic schizophrenism !!!! fool fool fool fool fool fool
            1. Taz
              Taz 11 May 2012 10: 30
              0
              Quote: Jabara
              In short! There’s nothing to comment on! Dumb idiotic schizophrenism !!!!

              +1
          2. Piligrim
            Piligrim 10 May 2012 22: 37
            +1
            Well, since you are so wise, and everything is clear to you (in vain you got a plus), you should know the reason for the attack of the American nuclear submarine. Surprise us with your awareness.
            1. Jabara
              Jabara 11 May 2012 08: 36
              +1
              Quote: Pilgrim
              you must know the cause of the attack of the American nuclear submarine

              THERE WAS NO ATTACK !!!!! It doesn't even make sense to discuss! Also THERE WAS NO COLLISION !!!!
              These stupidly propaganda versions do not stand up to any criticism.
              The perpetrators of this tragedy are exclusively and only within the country. And all sorts of "links" to "fellow submariners" like:
              Quote: Sandov
              A friend of the submariner voiced this version immediately after the death of the boat. Who is who and the submariners know all the best about us better than us. But the insidiousness of amers is known to all.


              This is nothing but a stupid excuse for their blind, paranoid anti-Americanism. fool
              1. Poplar
                Poplar 11 May 2012 14: 14
                +1
                But the French, who cannot be ranked among our best friends, think like this http://video.mail.ru/mail/anmmb1/684/666.html
          3. Simon
            Simon 11 May 2012 10: 11
            +3
            So what is Putin to blame? The fact that he destroyed the whole army and navy? Remember how the liberals said that we do not need such an army. Remember how the soldiers died of hunger on the Russky Island, how the soldiers froze to death in Siberia. Those who came before him are to blame. Now Putin is doing everything to make the army strong. If the army is strong, then the state is strong
        2. carver
          carver 11 May 2012 10: 16
          +2
          I don’t know the question, is AB used on a submarine constantly as the main power source for part of the load, or does it still play the role of a ballast smoothing peak loads and is an emergency power source? If the second, then where does the intensive use of AB come from, and hydrogen begins to be released intensively only in the process of battery charging. And besides, are there really old ABs with free breathing and coverslips on the most modern submarine of the Russian Federation ???? and indeed there are batteries in general airtight with gel filling which do not emit gases into the environment at all.
          1. Sermyaga
            Sermyaga 11 May 2012 21: 54
            0
            Atomic AB is used in exceptional cases. A constant source of e-energy is a generator spinning with steam from a nuclear power plant.
            1. carver
              carver 12 May 2012 10: 30
              0
              Yes, I didn’t really doubt that it was just that I couldn’t know for sure. This confirms the delusional version of the explosion of hydrogen.
        3. postman
          postman 11 May 2012 15: 21
          +1
          Quote: Jabara

          Jabara

          It is not very clear what you wanted to say with your comment?
          Valera Boval was doused with mud "passing by", other commentators were identified as "stupid". etc.
          The poor fellows did not ask permission and did not agree with the "great" point of view.
          That is not the task.
          Your version - essno is veritas est adaequatio rei et intellectus.
          And the point!
      2. kostiknet
        kostiknet 10 May 2012 16: 27
        +5
        Quote: Vito
        Such statements are not rushed, especially people with such DUTIES!

        Zhirik is a clown and his statements, it is populism and a clowning (he is so wet that Zadornov nervously smokes in the corner laughing ) And Zhirik doesn’t care about the POSITION & I don’t care (he “put” on everything, but from what “height” he don’t care)
        1. Piligrim
          Piligrim 10 May 2012 22: 40
          +4
          I agree, Zhirik is a cheap selling skin, and the party is the same. The latest vote for Medvedev’s election as prime minister is clear evidence. He stuck to power and money, and would go to any conspiracy with anyone, if only to continue to sit and walk his ryah in the deputy chair and his Maybach.
      3. Pessimist
        Pessimist 13 May 2012 22: 28
        0
        V.V. Zhirinovsky is far from stupid, as they expose him in the media!
        1. ICT
          ICT 15 May 2012 02: 07
          0
          he put himself in a series of clowns (the media just cling to it), although in fact a competent man
    3. Beetle-a
      Beetle-a 10 May 2012 12: 46
      +18
      Do you remember well the beginning of the 2000s? The state of the army and navy and the country itself after Yeltsin? What are you going to answer? Nuclear weapons? Would nuclear war be arranged? There was infa about the automatic response of the American submarine's computer to our training torpedo, launched from Kursk (accidentally hitting an American), who was spying on ours, and who was in the way of the training torpedo. Now, after several years of rebuilding the army, we are not able to compete on equal terms with the amers, and do you propose Putin to swing rights and start the bull-calf then? Or did Putin do the right thing, that he knocked out all the bonuses possible in that situation without publicity?
      1. valokordin
        valokordin 10 May 2012 13: 20
        -9
        We should not defend our homeland but enter into negotiations
      2. Timonf
        Timonf 10 May 2012 13: 29
        -1
        Quote: Beetle-A
        Or did Putin do the right thing, that he knocked out all the bonuses possible in that situation without publicity?
        In this, tell the faces of the Mothers of the deceased submariners!
        1. Odinplys
          Odinplys 10 May 2012 18: 13
          +5
          Quote: Timonf
          In this tell the faces of the mothers of the dead submariners


          They understand us more ... and there is no need to breed hysteria ...
          If this is true, then the death of the submariners is all the more in vain ... Russia got time for rearmament ...Beetle-a... right ...
          1. speedy
            speedy 10 May 2012 22: 28
            +4
            On the Kursk nuclear submarine, the son of a friend of my father died, and the heart of the father of the deceased submariner could not stand it - the only son, officer ... they still lie in the same fence next to me - father and son. It was the best fleet crew and no need to blame the guys. There is much to say that there was a collision and there was a torpedo attack, but what is the answer - a war? It’s better not to caress this topic, you won’t help the guys anymore, but it was after this tragedy that the restoration of the fleet began. boats began to finish building with quiet glanders, which stood on the slipways from the collapse of the Union, and how difficult it was ... But sometimes it’s better not to know the truth - more nerves, a healthier heart ...
            1. veryalone
              veryalone 11 May 2012 17: 13
              +2
              There is just NONE fact - neither in favor of the collision, nor in favor of the torpedo attack.
              Strictly speaking, in the French film itself, the only factual evidence of its credibility is a still image that captures the hole in the light body on the starboard side. However, this hole is located in close proximity to the cut line of the nasal compartment, but there are no clear signs of the origin of this defect from the impact of a torpedo, and the solid case in this area is intact. American torpedoes Mk-48, referred to in the film, explode outside the hull and do not leave such holes. As a result of this, it can be assumed that the hole could have been formed as a result of lifting and towing operations, when placing the boat in the dock, etc. Another strong counterargument against the torpedo version is the mismatch between the capacities of the 1st and 2nd explosions on the Kursk, recorded by seismologists, and the power of the American torpedo
      3. Piligrim
        Piligrim 10 May 2012 22: 43
        +1
        / There was infa /, / computer automatic response / - dear, are you in kindergarten ???
        / who spied on ours / well, what is it ...
      4. PSih2097
        PSih2097 10 May 2012 22: 58
        +4
        Now, after several years of rebuilding the army, we are not able to compete on equal terms with the amers,

        on our territory, that in 2000, that we can compete with anyone, as long as there are people (soldiers and officers) who served in the USSR and in the first decade of the Russian Federation, but what will happen in ten years from now, the missing generation of the 90s - 2000s. ..
        And yes, it was worth to roll out (at least make to surface) the American and British boats just because one of them was the cause of the Kursk's death ... IMHO
    4. valokordin
      valokordin 10 May 2012 13: 18
      +3
      Admiral Popov also said that the submarine suffered external damage on TV, that there was no doubt that Kursk torpedoed, it was outraged that the Democrats had betrayed 118 lives of our sailors, as they had betrayed others, including allies. They never have forgiveness
      1. guessed
        guessed 10 May 2012 20: 20
        +4
        Such a submarine cannot be drowned by a single torpedo. She can even shoot back after one hit. If only this torpedo had no tyaz ... then the nose compartment would not have to be sawed off. Actually in the article there is a photo that directly indicates that an explosive wave of enormous force passed through the boat, even the transverse partitions broke. And this is definitely not an explosion of torpedoes, First of all, it’s almost impossible to blow them up on board, and they don’t have such an explosive wave.
        You can look at the reference book ... but without it I will say by the power of the blast wave the rating looks like this
        1. nuclear weapons
        2. volumetric explosion
        3. it doesn’t matter .... many times weaker than the second.
        1. snek
          snek 11 May 2012 06: 19
          +1
          Quote: dvina
          1. NAO2. volume explosion

          If you know how the thermobaric munition (the one of a volumetric explosion) works, then you should understand that under water it cannot work in principle. The use of nuclear weapons leaves a clear mark in the form of radiation contamination.
          1. guessed
            guessed 14 May 2012 01: 51
            0
            And what about the thermobaric charge? The atmosphere on the boat is generally a subtle topic. excess of oxygen concentration by a couple of percent is fraught with fire.
            And imagine that the concentration of hydrogen in the nasal compartment is more than 4%. So much for the volumetric explosion.
            I spoke with the guys from the submission team, just those who passed Kursk. So he was received by order from above. Almost by shout. Batteries already mercilessly gassed.
            And to activate such a charge a lot is not necessary, just one spark ....
            In the 50s, a feed and flour factory was wiped off the face of the earth by an explosion of suspensions of the same flour. The explosion occurred due to a spark from a truck silencer. Since then, when entering such plants, it is necessary to cross a pond and attach a spark arrester to the silencer .... Always, even in rainy weather.
            This is me so for example and to represent the power of such an explosion.
      2. dim-dim
        dim-dim 11 May 2012 13: 29
        +5
        Quote: valokordin
        outraged how the democrats betrayed 118 lives of our sailors


        I support it, and maybe it will sound blasphemous, but, in my deep conviction, if the Kursk died as a result of torpedoing, and the country's leadership knew this, then in any case none of the sailors would be saved - they would be the witnesses, which could not be silenced! That is why we were told that at first they could not find the exact coordinates of the boat, then the rescue bell could not "stick" to the hull, and then it was too late - everyone died ...
    5. Piligrim
      Piligrim 10 May 2012 22: 33
      +1
      Oh, it's hard to look for a black cat in a dark room, especially if she is not there!
  3. snek
    snek 10 May 2012 08: 06
    +14
    The death of Kursk is forever associated with the areola of myths and speculation.
    As for the version with torpedoing, I will make a few comments:
    1. The hole shown on the case has only a part of the circle, and in the lower right corner you can see a sharp edge. Especially
    2. after breaking through the hull, logically, this torpedo exploded and, again logically, the inlet should have become an "outlet" for the blast wave and, therefore, just turned out, which is not.
    3. What did the Americans smoke, that all of a sudden they decided to fire a torpedo at a nuclear submarine? There was no such thing in the Cold War.
    1. Ataturk
      Ataturk 10 May 2012 08: 14
      +14
      One thing I know for sure, submarines of this class themselves do not sink and do not explode. there each system is duplicated 5 times.
      1. snek
        snek 10 May 2012 08: 47
        +8
        I am folding to the version of the explosion of a torpedo from the ammunition of Kursk itself. I note that I do not consider this true in the last resort, but simply the most plausible theory. Unfortunately, we may never know the truth.
        1. Transbeton
          Transbeton 10 May 2012 14: 02
          -1
          Totally agree with you.
          Here, respected Murano has repeatedly laid out a link to the investigation movie
          The torpedo exploded - this is an established fact!
          But why it exploded, there is no answer ...
      2. Delta
        Delta 10 May 2012 14: 21
        +3
        about duplication of systems: from the 9th compartment, you can turn on the purge of the command stock of the Air Force and the boat would float. This is after the first explosion of one torpedo. This was not done, only because someone from the command of the ship should give a command to this. Here is the duplication. Itself did not explode, of course. There is a human factor to everything
        1. Transbeton
          Transbeton 10 May 2012 14: 23
          -1
          Let's hope that the correct conclusions are made.
          Tea is not cut on "aquabikes".
      3. Vingetor
        Vingetor 10 May 2012 19: 39
        +3
        Of course, I apologize. Maybe you know more than me, but the K-278 Komsomolets submarine sank due to a fire.
        1. olegyurjewitch
          olegyurjewitch 10 May 2012 22: 57
          +3
          Quote: Vingetor
          Of course, I apologize. Maybe you know more than me, but the K-278 Komsomolets submarine sank due to a fire.

          That's right. I recommend the book of a real submariner, Hero of the Soviet Union - Vice Admiral Chernova E.D "Secrets of underwater disasters" Why do I recommend? Chernov is the former commander of the 1st FAPL of the Northern Fleet, a boat from our base in Zapadnaya Litsa. In the book, the testimony of survivors from the "Komsomolets" I myself personally knew some warrant officers and officers, unfortunately they are all on the lists of the victims. Eternal memory to them, as well as to the brothers from "Kursk"
      4. Piligrim
        Piligrim 10 May 2012 22: 49
        0
        And Komsomolets?
        Also someone else's torpedo?
        And I do not believe that from one tarpeda (and why did it fly right in the nose ??? it seems like it should go to the screws!) It can break through the vaunted double case and do such business.
        1. Delta
          Delta 10 May 2012 23: 46
          +1
          at least someone thought
        2. lukaviy
          lukaviy 11 May 2012 08: 35
          -2
          Pound garbage, citizen!
          You can trivially search for information about the MK48 torpedo:

          Gould Mark 48 torpedoes are designed to destroy surface targets and high-speed submarines. Uses an active and passive homing system. Also, these torpedoes are equipped with a multiple attack system, which is used when losing a target. A torpedo independently searches for, captures and attacks the target. The torpedo electronics is configured to hit the boat at the end of the torpedo compartment, in the area of ​​the command post.
          Taken from here: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark-48

          And I also recommend watching a movie about the death of the Kursk nuclear submarine, which the French shot: http://video.google.ru/videoplay?docid=-3890444558362410672#
          1. Delta
            Delta 11 May 2012 09: 56
            0
            Once again, I personally recommend that you go to the same Wikipedia, only in the English version. And there you will not see such a heresy. And besides, if you are far from the topic, I’ll tell you that the command post is far from all boats in the 2nd compartment. Or developed a MK 48 torpedo specifically for Anteyev?)))))
            1. lukaviy
              lukaviy 11 May 2012 11: 14
              -1
              Indeed, in the English-language wiki there is nothing about the torpedo compartment and command post, and I have not found anything about this on other resources either.
              And if there is no confirmation, then I take my words back.
              Wiki, of course, is not a resource that is worth 100% trust. :)
              1. Delta
                Delta 11 May 2012 11: 25
                +2
                nice to talk with someone who is able to admit their mistake.
          2. Piligrim
            Piligrim 11 May 2012 22: 27
            0
            Do you yourself realize that you wrote nonsense, or foolishly!)
    2. dan-frya
      dan-frya 10 May 2012 09: 39
      +4
      just decided to test their strength, the more they did not expect problems ...

      I don't know why all of a sudden, but I remembered a "strange" hole in the Pentagon building on September 11.09.2001, XNUMX ... not very reminiscent of an airplane, but very suitable for a cruise missile (as some commentators noticed) ... like a coincidence ...;)

      PS The last statement does not mean that we were planning terrorist attacks, but could deliver a noise and our "parcel" to the return address ...
      1. radikdan79
        radikdan79 10 May 2012 14: 43
        +5
        interesting version about the Russian Kyrgyz Republic in the Pentagon laughing
        but I think such an attack would not go unnoticed request
      2. Piligrim
        Piligrim 10 May 2012 22: 52
        +1
        Haha laughed !!! +100! A drop dead version in the spirit of some paronoid forum users.
    3. Esso
      Esso 10 May 2012 12: 32
      +3
      It is doubtful that the submarine itself drowned! The version of torpedoing her American is more believable. Investigation of the French is glamorous. Americans torpedoed to hide the traces of the attack! One of the submarines stood in front of Kursk and Kursk took it to the ram, both submarines were damaged, serious American. Captain Memphis decided to shoot new torpedoes to hide the traces of the attack. Putin decided not to pull out the crew, but the Norwegians could help, the crew would chat, and Russia was weak to demand something! The Americans offered money, very the country’s chief! The head of NATO, the US Secretary of Defense, immediately flew to us. Our Minister of Defense and several military men were then removed because they did not agree with this. S. Ivanov became the new Minister of Defense. By the way, Commander Memphis was later awarded for the sinking of a class missile carrier Antey! Whether Putin did the right thing or not, time will tell. Our sailors are submariners on one side of the scale and the countries safe on the other. I think he was not the only one who made such a decision! The decision was political, the military, led by the Ministry of Defense, were against it, forgiving the Americans forgiven. .... I hope with Oro avenge them!
      1. Delta
        Delta 10 May 2012 14: 26
        +11
        why talk about what you do not know? I do not understand. What are the "new torpedoes"? What could the crew be talking about from the end compartments? what could they know? which head of NATO and which minister of defense flew to us? The head of the CIA flew to Russia on a visit. For what was awarded the commander of "Memphis" ???? your imagination is off scale, as a writer and nothing else.
        1. Esso
          Esso 10 May 2012 19: 43
          +2
          Ask our military what kind of torpedoes it is! It is known that Captain Kursk found 2 notes, 1 relatives, another command. How many people initially survived in the first minutes of the disaster. You were not there with a candle and the commander of Kursk you did not communicate! And I was gone! Mark-48 (Mk-48) is a universal long-range remote-controlled torpedo. Designed to replace the Mk-37 torpedo series. Gould Mark 48 torpedoes are designed to destroy surface targets and high-speed submarines. Uses an active and passive homing system. Also, these torpedoes are equipped with a multiple attack system, which is used when losing a target. A torpedo independently searches for, captures and attacks the target. The torpedo electronics is configured to hit the boat at the end of the torpedo compartment, in the vicinity of the command post! As soon as the head of the CIA flew in, the head of the defense ministry, the head of Nato, ran a lot of people to Moscow. You are in the Course that Moscow demanded as compensation. What kind of concessions did you make? USA. Commander Memphis was awarded a secret decree. Everything went quietly. What class was Kursk! I have no imagination on such topics. You better think yourself with your head and don't write to writers! You’re self-confident, go talk to military submariners and try it rub, we’ll see what they’ll answer to you! And don’t just breed demagogy ridiculously. We won’t completely find out the truth. The most indisputable fact, ours and we all swept it carefully. If the Americans themselves believe in the version of their governments, then we have people cleverer!
          1. Delta
            Delta 10 May 2012 21: 22
            +2
            "The electronics of the torpedo are tuned to hit the boat at the end of the torpedo compartment, in the command post area."

            delirium of the gray mare, invented by the apologists of torpedoing the Kursk after its death. Go to the English version of Wikipedia and you will see a similar heresy for me. It says that this torpedo (like all others) explodes next to the ship.

            Give a reference to the award of the commander of Memphis?))))

            I am not stating anything out of my own self-confidence, but on the basis of research by the same "military submariners" (are there civilians?), but what your statements about secret awards for the murder of our sailors are based on is a secret. About the amount of compensation (for which it is not clear) and that someone demanded them. This is from the "one grandma said"
          2. Delta
            Delta 10 May 2012 22: 27
            0
            "The electronics of the torpedo are tuned to hit the boat at the end of the torpedo compartment, in the command post area."

            about this nonsense, would you even think about the fact that not all submarines are designed so that the command compartment is in the second. It is rather a feature of Antei. But reason is hard work for you
          3. olegyurjewitch
            olegyurjewitch 10 May 2012 23: 03
            0
            Quote: Esso

            Esso EN

            Do you imagine an explosion in a pipe sealed at both ends, filled with a mixture with a high content of pure oxygen? The same effect in the hull.
            1. Bear52
              Bear52 11 May 2012 02: 15
              0
              olegyurjewitch, have mercy: is there something extra from where? Explain, please! crying
          4. veryalone
            veryalone 11 May 2012 17: 11
            0
            Listen up Well end the nonsense then carry .....
      2. Piligrim
        Piligrim 10 May 2012 22: 54
        -2
        Well, God forgive me! It’s necessary to come up with something like that !!! At the competition, who would think up a ridiculous story about a tragedy getting ready?
      3. loc.bejenari
        loc.bejenari 11 May 2012 01: 26
        -2
        what did you smoke, dear?
      4. Odinplys
        Odinplys 11 May 2012 02: 49
        0
        Quote: Esso
        Putin decided not to pull out the crew, but the Norwegians could help, the crew would chat,


        Putin decided ... not to pull out ... Sorry ... but this is just nonsense ...
        Yes, and there were no talkers .....
      5. Jabara
        Jabara 11 May 2012 08: 47
        +3
        Quote: Esso
        It is doubtful that the submarine itself drowned!

        Without any doubts! In addition to the Kursk, five more nuclear submarines DROWNED BY THEMSELVES, and one of them sank twice, and several more (I don’t remember the exact number) diesel boats.
        Quote: Esso
        The version about torpedoing her American is more believable. French investigation look.

        Oh my God! The Frenchman idiot version is the ultimate truth! laughing
    4. Sibiryak
      Sibiryak 10 May 2012 15: 51
      +4
      snek
      Dear Nikolai!
      Quote: snek
      The hole shown on the case has only a part of the circle, and in the lower right corner you can see a sharp edge.

      Honestly, the photos posted in the article on quality are called the letter G ..... with a capital letter, and then the torpedo does not have to hit the target at right angles, right ???!
      Quote: snek
      after breaking through the hull, logically, this torpedo exploded and, again logically, the inlet should have become an "outlet" for the blast wave and, therefore, just turned out, which is not.

      Firstly, detonation depends on the time installed on the fuse and the detonating substance with which the ammunition is filled, and not as it happens in the movies - once and immediately an explosion. And secondly, do a simple experiment - drill or punch a hole in a metal plate and hit the burr with a hammer! You will be surprised that he will not bend in the opposite direction, but either fall off or die tightly, so to speak, on the back of the part. So in your statement there is absolutely no logic!
      Quote: snek
      What did the Americans smoke, that they suddenly decided to shoot a torpedo at a nuclear submarine for nothing? There was no such thing in the Cold War.

      The psycho-neurological state of soldiers and sailors of the us army has recently left much to be desired, there are many examples and it is not known what kind of popuas they were sitting at the remote control!
      So I'm more inclined towards the torpedo version.
      1. Kars
        Kars 10 May 2012 16: 00
        +9
        Quote: Sibiryak
        Firstly, the detonation depends on the time installed on the fuse and the detonating substance with which the ammunition is filled, and not as it happens in the movies - once an explosion


        Torpedoes do not pierce the board with their kinetic energy, but do explode, and must explode at the moment of contact.
        The penetration is hindered by the low speed and shape of the warhead - there were cases of jamming of unexploded torpedoes in the hull --- but there were 10-15 mm metal sheets and even with that, penetration into the depths was out of the question.
        1. Sibiryak
          Sibiryak 10 May 2012 16: 18
          +1
          Quote: Kars
          Torpedoes do not pierce the board with their kinetic energy, but do explode, and must explode at the moment of contact.

          You are mistaken, dear, torpedoes as well as ammunition for artillery, both barreled and reactive, differ in their purpose. It's just that special ammunition of kinetic action does not do in huge quantities, and it is for a specific purpose that they are not for large-sized actions, so to speak, and more expensive in production!
          Quote: Kars
          I break through penetration low speed and the shape of the head

          The shape of the head part does not have to be the same as in the photo in the article, it happens different actually, and then you know the speed of the torpedo in the water ??? In my opinion, it is even very causative.
          1. Kars
            Kars 10 May 2012 16: 22
            +8
            Quote: Sibiryak
            You are mistaken dear,

            Give classification
            Quote: Sibiryak
            Kinetic special ammunition is simply not made in large quantities.

            How is it? What do you think of the speed of the MK 46?
            Quote: Sibiryak
            parts do not have to be the same as in the photo in the article, it can be different actually

            Can I have a photo?
            Quote: Sibiryak
            and then you know the speed of a torpedo in the water ???

            To 60 nodes, translate in meters per second?
            1. Sibiryak
              Sibiryak 10 May 2012 16: 46
              -4
              Kars
              You think that well-known, so to speak, public classifications describe the whole range of invented torpedo ammunition, I think not. So it makes no sense to bring it.
              About the torpedo MK 46 is just your guess and official publications in the press and nothing more!
              On account of the photo, you can find a photo of the Russian torpedo "SHKVAL", for example what is known publicly! The shape of the head is conical! And you can think of the rest yourself.
              At the expense of meters / second, I think this is superfluous, I will say one thing, if I'm not mistaken, 60 knots is approximately 100 km / h. If you make a mistake correct!
              1. Kars
                Kars 10 May 2012 16: 59
                +6
                Quote: Sibiryak
                So it makes no sense to bring it.

                Super secret?
                Quote: Sibiryak
                About the torpedo MK 46 is just your guess and official publications in the press and nothing more!

                Yes, and it surpasses only YOUR assumptions and does not go beyond logic and physics
                Quote: Sibiryak
                Russian torpedo "SHKVAL",

                A flurry is unique and, as they say, is one-of-a-kind, but even they do not ascribe a penetrating warhead to it.
                Type of warhead - high explosive

                Quote: Sibiryak
                60 knots it is approximately 100 km / h

                Take the Wikipedia data for 55 nodes. This is 27,5 meters per second, do you know the speed of a legal air bullet?
                Quote: Sibiryak
                And you can think of the rest yourself.

                It’s not necessary to think over anything, I almost burst out laughing when the version about the armor-piercing torpedo was voiced by the French in .. Kursk in troubled waters ..
                Nevertheless, questions about the photo and classification remain.
                1. Sibiryak
                  Sibiryak 10 May 2012 17: 42
                  0
                  Andrei, you don’t have to snatch certain phrases from the text, so you can get to the point of absurdity!
                  The classification classification has absolutely nothing to do with it!
                  Quote: Kars
                  A flurry is unique and, as the saying goes, is one of a kind, but they do not ascribe even a penetrating warhead to it.

                  And you are absolutely sure of that, the only one. How the complex as a whole may be yes, but in certain parts I am not sure. The submarine is, of course, made of iron, but not to the same degree, to shoot at it with armor-piercing torpedoes, it is enough to change the form-geometric characteristics. By the way, the form of ammunition plays an important role, for example, in artillery there are ammunition of a certain caliber, and sub-caliber. The content is the same, but their effect varies significantly. I do not think that in the manufacture of torpedoes this characteristic is thrown aside.
                  The speed of the topeda at 27,5 m / s is very decent to break through the hull of a submarine, kinetically!
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 10 May 2012 18: 32
                    +4
                    Quote: Sibiryak
                    no need to pull certain phrases from text

                    so it gets.
                    Quote: Sibiryak
                    The classification classification has absolutely nothing to do with it!

                    It was a torpedo --- super-duper armor-piercing.
                    Quote: Sibiryak
                    And you are absolutely sure of that, the only one.

                    There is still a German Baracuda and what?
                    Quote: Sibiryak
                    The submarine is, of course, made of iron, but not to the same degree, to shoot at it with armor-piercing torpedoes, it is enough to change the form-geometric characteristics.

                    It is made of steel capable of withstanding water pressures at depths of hundreds of meters.
                    Quote: Sibiryak
                    By the way, the form of ammunition plays an important role, for example, in artillery there are ammunition of a certain caliber, and sub-caliber

                    So here it is the shape that affects, namely the diameter and lateral load.
                    Quote: Sibiryak
                    The content is the same, but their effect varies significantly.
                    And precisely because of the speed and the fact that the diameter of the warhead is small, do not forget about the strength of the ammunition itself.
                    Quote: Sibiryak
                    The speed of the topeda at 27,5 m / s is very decent to break through the hull of a submarine, kinetically!

                    No, he can leave a dent, but there is no question of penetration, and even penetration of a solid building afterwards.
                2. limmor
                  limmor 11 May 2012 16: 55
                  0
                  Quote: Sibiryak
                  60 knots it is approximately 100 km / h

                  Quote: Kars
                  Take the Wikipedia data for 55 nodes. This is 27,5 meters per second, do you know the speed of a legal air bullet?

                  Respected. 60 knots, the same 100 km / h. And do not blindly trust Wikipedia. And the speed of the bullet in the air depends on the air itself and range from 130 to 450 m / s
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 11 May 2012 17: 54
                    +2
                    Quote: limmor
                    60 knots, same 100 km / h.

                    Not 108?
                    Quote: limmor
                    And don’t blindly trust Wikipedia

                    And who blindly trusts her? They brought her as an open source, if you have an instruction manual for MK 48, share it with the public.
                    Quote: Kars
                    55 nodes is 27,5 meters

                    Quote: limmor
                    And the speed of a bullet in an air gun depends on the air itself and range from 130 to 450 m / s

                    So is the speed of an air bullet greater or less than the speed of a torpedo in water?


                    And even suppose that the breakdown in Kursk is a trace of a torpedo, then the diameter does not converge this time, and it did not explode this two, otherwise the configuration of the edges would be different.

                    I in principle do not exclude a collision with another submarine as an option, all the same, there were rumors of damage to Memphis, but categorically against .. armor-piercing .. torpedoes.
                    And in a collision, for some reason, the Kursk torpedoes exploded, or when they hit the bottom, but not from torpedoing.
          2. Piligrim
            Piligrim 10 May 2012 22: 59
            -2
            Clumsy excuses - not accepted!
            I would like to look at such ammunition, which, moving in the water column, could break through the double hull of neither a surface minesweeper, but a nuclear submarine!
          3. olegyurjewitch
            olegyurjewitch 10 May 2012 23: 12
            +1
            Quote: Sibiryak
            and then you know the speed of a torpedo in the water ??? In my opinion, it is even very causative.

            A torpedo will make a hole on board some destroyer, but I think it will be problematic to damage a solid submarine hull of this type, do not forget that the light hull is covered with rubber plates, now I don’t remember the exact size of the plates, and this reduces impact to some extent.
      2. Delta
        Delta 10 May 2012 16: 16
        +3
        You listen, it’s possible to decide that the American submariners are underwater hooligans who have no government. So they think - to whom to stick a torpedo. Some psychotherapists on the site. Did you check their mental state? Do you know how many degrees of protection weapons systems have against accidental launches? sure - you don’t even suspect about it
        1. Sibiryak
          Sibiryak 10 May 2012 16: 31
          +2
          Delta
          But listen to you, it turns out that our sailors are complete ignoramuses, but the American ones simply never make mistakes and their technology is just on the verge of fantasy. I think you can answer most of your questions yourself, and not ask, in life, not everything happens like in a book!
          Quote: Delta
          Do you know how many degrees of protection weapons systems have against accidental launches?

          This is just a man-made product that can fail respected, and very unpredictable, because of such moments, it’s not that torpedo tubes fire, submarines drown, you know!
          1. Delta
            Delta 10 May 2012 16: 49
            +2
            I understand this is offensive to hear, but this is not my invention. These are researched documents confirming that the readiness to fire such a torpedo was zero. That the crew hasn't fired in three years. That there was at least one significant flaw in the ship's design that put it at risk. As for complex products, there is no product in the world that suddenly goes crazy on its own initiative. There are factors that influence his behavior. And these are the people who created and exploited it. And there was always a mess in the navy, in the army. Even in the Soviet Union, which is why the boats were killed. And now even more so. So in the Union they went under water for at least 3 months, but now it's good if for a week. About Americans - I know their value and I remember that their "Greenville" drowned a Japanese fishing schooner, surfacing right under it. Anything and they happen. BUT! Their submarines have not drowned since the 68th year. Conclusions suggest themselves
            1. Sibiryak
              Sibiryak 10 May 2012 17: 07
              +2
              Delta
              Dear Vyacheslav! Life, of course, is a complicated thing, but the human factor does not always determine the emergency situation.
              You know what an attack on a warship of an independent state is and what the consequences may be. Especially on the scale of the confrontation between the United States and Russia ??? !!! This incident qualifies as a declaration of war, and what do you think, after hostile actions taken, they will tell the whole truth to society, it can end very sadly, given the attitude of our citizens to this country! In the end, this incident could and had certain political motives and consequences!
              1. Delta
                Delta 10 May 2012 17: 19
                -1
                let's make it easier - do you have evidence of torpedoing? or at least collisions
                1. Sibiryak
                  Sibiryak 10 May 2012 17: 56
                  +4
                  Why ask a similar question if you absolutely have no evidence! Meaning??? You, like everyone involved in the discussion, have only assumptions based on public data!
                  Look at the first photo, which is not so hot of course, but it can be clearly seen from the deformation of the metal around the hole that the impact on the boat was from the outside, not from the inside !!!
                  1. Delta
                    Delta 10 May 2012 18: 16
                    0
                    proof of which I have not? I'm not trying to prove that she was torpedoed! Therefore, I do not need proof. There is an official version about the explosion of a torpedo in a torpedo tube. She's correct. There are studies by Admiral Ryazantsev. They show that the version is correct, but the reasons are different. The substantiations are technical, and not speculation a la "could be so." How much can you say that the torpedo does not go inside the ship, but explodes nearby? look at least the Internet sources (not Russian) about the torpedo.
        2. Piligrim
          Piligrim 10 May 2012 23: 03
          +1
          For some reason it seems to me that there (in the Premier League) not a single button needs to be pressed so that the torpedo goes ...
          Well, why do you think that this is easier than the machine that you need: 1) remove from the fuse, 2) cock, 3) aim, 4) pull the trigger. And that 4 actions!
          And in the Premier League, how many do you think ???
        3. DERWISH
          DERWISH 12 May 2012 03: 26
          0
          MORE THAN I AM SURE THAT AMERUS WILL SO CHECK OUR NERVES AS HAPPENED IN YUGOSLAVIA IN GEORGIA IN IRAQ IRAN TO CONTINUE FURTHER ???
      3. kostiknet
        kostiknet 10 May 2012 16: 41
        +3
        Quote: Sibiryak
        The psycho-neurological state of soldiers and sailors of the us army has recently left much to be desired, there are many examples and it is not known what kind of popuas they were sitting at the remote control!

        exactly, exactly !!! An armed American is a MONKEY WITH A Grenade !!! It will certainly explode when it is a matter of time wassat
    5. volcano
      volcano 10 May 2012 17: 23
      +4
      Dear snek. As for the torpedo, experts say that this is some kind of cunning torpedo, which itself aims at the first compartment of the boat, and besides, that there is just something wrong with the blast wave. I don't remember exactly, but it seems to go exactly inside the boat (such as a cumulative jet) and the task of the torpedo is to detonate the ammunition compartment of 1 compartment. about why I suddenly fired, I can say that with fright. If you believe, of course, French journalists. That is, at first there was an uncritical collision with an American submarine, after which the Kursk continued to fulfill the assigned task (firing the Shkval missile-torpedo). and here the amers got scared, when their acoustician determined the opening of torpedo tubes on the Kursk, these cretins decided that it was for their souls and were the first to sniff. cowboys. Something like that.
      And in conclusion, I want to tell you that the submariners and Vidyaevo and Gadzhievo still unanimously declare that it was a torpedo of amers. and they say this not in cameras or in interviews, defending the "honor of the uniform", but as professionals in their field with their own point of view.
      And finally, for all those who are gundos about the unprofessionalism of our sailors, gouging, etc., I will say one thing. Our submariners are great people. Monuments should be put to them during their lifetime. And with professionalism, training, everything is fine with them.
      1. Delta
        Delta 10 May 2012 17: 46
        -1
        a cunning torpedo aiming at the first compartment))))))))) peshuizpatstala. No, well, really, when will you yourself learn to think, and not breed stupid rumors? By the way, about this torpedo (not at all tricky, but ordinary) in the Russian version of Wiki it is said that it aims itself at the end of the torpedo compartment and falls into the second - the command one. I didn't want to comment on this, but, as you can see, I have to. Firstly, this nonsense was written by ours (in Wiki anyone can pour their "thoughts"), those who want to think that way. At the same time, they did not even look at the technical description of the torpedo, which says that it explodes next to the ship. By the way, such an action of torpedoes started from the war. Yes, by the way - about gospel, "a shot with a fright" (this is generally a pearl, although there may be age ....) and training: if you take the trouble to study the works on the submarine fleet, besides the victorious reports, you will understand that not everything is good. Rather the opposite. Then everything will become clear about how our torpedo could explode inside the torpedo tube.
        1. volcano
          volcano 11 May 2012 12: 57
          +1
          Dear Delta. About age you are clearly mistaken. The age is the same. About reading, but why should I read if I SEEN for 8 years at the Federation Council how these people serve? Well, you yourself have taken an interesting position. What you learned on this issue is your ultimate truth, what others say is pearls, nonsense, etc. There are, after all, the rules of the game, we all take information from open sources. Right? Then why are yours more correct than mine? Plus, let's turn on the logic. Why didn't they rush to save right away? At least you yourself understand that when accepting the version of the accident (it doesn't matter the torpedo detonated, "they didn't shoot for three years, as you say"), the leadership of the fleet and the country only had to portray the tireless activity of sending rescuers, divers and take a bunch of other rescue measures. even agree to the help of the West, which he so sharply "suddenly for no reason at all offered" (by the way, in my opinion, this is the only case of this kind of proposal ..... why would?), but we were distracted, so what prevented it to do everything, and then with a sense of accomplishment to look into the eyes of relatives, society, the world. Well, they could not, lost the battle with the sea, the elements are her mother. Who would have condemned them after that? Yes, probably no one. SO WHY DID THEY NOT DO THIS? I hope you do not consider the country's leadership and the Navy to be completely brutes and idlers? There can be only one answer. THERE WASN'T AN ACCIDENT, there was something else. And the last thing about Americans in general. Of course, you can say that this is all nonsense, but there is no smoke without fire:
          1. The United States enters World War I after torpedoing a passenger ship with a German submarine (subsequently there were too many facts that made it very strong to assume that it was an Amer submarine. They torpedoed specifically to give themselves a reason to enter the war.
          2. The United States enters World War II after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor (again, there is research that allows us to conclude that the amers knew about the attack and deliberately did not react, again to give themselves a reason to enter the war, which in general did not concern them. Let me remind you that after World War I, the American people swore to fight and Roosevelt won the elections largely due to the fact that he promised not to send American soldiers to the war anywhere except the United States.So Pearl Harbor should have become such an insult that the American people themselves said “we are all going to fight.” Which is what happened.
          3. The notorious twin towers in the year 11. Well, here I think, and I don’t need to clarify. An enemy is needed for the country, but is it still there and not? get international terrorism. USA SO SOLVES ALL ITS PROBLEMS. I’m not saying that they wanted the KURSK attack to start a war with Russia, I’m saying that their head is not all right. Such could and have frowned with fright.
          1. Delta
            Delta 11 May 2012 14: 08
            0
            well then let's take it in order:
            1. If you were on the Northern Fleet, what kind of "cunning torpedoes" did you see, which themselves "aim at the first compartment"? I ask for information for me, such a scoundrel that does not tolerate objections. It is information, and not speculation like "it could have been" or "there is such, but it is so classified that only I know." So that there were no conjectures about the fact that they did not rush to save on purpose, to finish off someone in the boat.
            2. About the fact that they didn’t shoot for 3 years - this is not I say, these are official data. Moreover, in the 97th they shot an electric torpedo, and they never shot a peroxide, and nobody knew how to properly operate it on board. I had to connect to the system a contract sailor from another boat.
            3. For help, the West and so on are not even indirect evidence. I'm not talking about the arrival of the head of the CIA at a meeting that had been planned long before those events. Do you have at least some evidence in favor of the torpedo version, or will we try to attach any events to the version?
            4. About Pearl Harbor and the passenger liner - do you have evidence, not fiction? the same about the towers. Were you pleased when some began to say that the explosions of residential buildings in Russia were organized by the FSB? Evidence, of course, no one brought, but there were those who believed. And what - the logic can be traced. So it is with you with Pearl Harbor, the Twin Towers and "Kursk".

            By the way, it’s not clear to me why the Americans were “scared”? why should they be afraid?
          2. veryalone
            veryalone 11 May 2012 17: 08
            +1
            In addition to speculation and obvious nonsense, is there at least one FACT?
      2. ISO
        ISO 11 May 2012 09: 45
        +1
        I apologize for the tone, but do you personally know any of the submariners? I don’t want to blame anyone indiscriminately, but in order to make such statements, you either have to cook it yourself or be close to the people who do it. I myself work in an enterprise that used to be engaged in full cycle U&P for nuclear weapons. So, we had quite a lot of cases when our professionals in a sober mind and healthy memory persistently and purposefully chopped a branch on which they actually sat, this is documented by the relevant acts with the appropriate form of admission. I can’t say anything about the submariners, but a student who subsequently distributed to the nuclear-powered icebreaker went through practical training. In a couple of flights I went spitting on the ice near the pole and wrote off ashore. Not only did they assemble this unit so that the pipe assemblies go like veins in a twisted cable and you’ll find hell from the beginning to the end of the pipe of one system, so the team is not quite sober too ... So the guy fell out ... Therefore, who he knows what was really there on Kursk.
      3. FREGATENKAPITAN
        FREGATENKAPITAN 11 May 2012 09: 58
        +1
        .... that submariners and Vidyaevo and Hajiyevo still unanimously declare that it was a torpedo of amers. and they say this not in cameras or in interviews, defending the "honor of the uniform", but as professionals in their field with their own point of view.
        ...... Exactly ...... almost from the first day everyone knew (Gadzhiev’s submariners) that you couldn’t drown project 949a just like that .... even if you really wanted to ......... ..and no one will convince us that there were no external influences ......
        ETERNAL MEMORY OF THE BROTHER !!!
        1. veryalone
          veryalone 11 May 2012 17: 07
          0
          But we must not persuade, but just think.
          Strictly speaking, in the French film itself, the only factual evidence of its credibility is a still image that captures the hole in the light body on the starboard side. However, this hole is located in close proximity to the cut line of the nasal compartment, but there are no clear signs of the origin of this defect from the impact of a torpedo, and the solid case in this area is intact. American torpedoes Mk-48, referred to in the film, explode outside the hull and do not leave such holes. As a result of this, it can be assumed that the hole could have been formed as a result of lifting and towing operations, when placing the boat in the dock, etc. Another strong counterargument against the torpedo version is the mismatch between the capacities of the 1st and 2nd explosions on the Kursk, recorded by seismologists, and the power of the American torpedo
      4. snv-sh
        snv-sh April 16 2013 09: 21
        0
        Apparently, the side of the Kursk was pierced by a high-speed training torpedo (without explosives) SHKVAL (or similar), fired by one of the surface or submarine ships located in that area, or by the Kursk itself, which, due to a system failure guidance, returned back. 3 tons of torpedo multiplied by 100 meters / second pierced the light hull and slightly damaged the durable one, which led to flooding, fire, possibly an explosion in the battery compartment and detonation of ammunition.

        Of course, there are some questions, but I think, in principle, everything was exactly like that. A distinctive dent, starting immediately from the hole, confirms that a violent collision took place. The version of "collapse" inward does not hold water. This dent could not also have been caused by hitting the ground. this would result in extensive damage to the starboard side, which is not observed. And the ballast of the Kursk would hardly have allowed such a strong roll. The hole diameter is about 70-80 cm, which approximately coincides with the caliber of the SHKVAL. At the same time, it is possible that the edges of the hole could be "trimmed" to hide the rough traces of a collision with a torpedo. It is argued that the inner (strong) hull of the boat, opposite the hole, remained intact. However, I was unable to find a single video or photograph (which, by the way, can be faked) at close range, which would confirm this. Arguments such as “they don’t shoot in that place”, “there is a practice shooting regulations” “torpedoes have a self-destruction system” are, for obvious reasons, unreliable. In theory, there could be anything that is not prohibited by the laws of physics. Another important question is why the hole was not cut off along with the nose during the lifting operation? I think the answer is very simple - we failed for technical reasons. The hole is located almost along the line of the wheelhouse and in order to cut it it was necessary either to touch the wheelhouse, which, for obvious reasons, no one wanted, or to cut it obliquely. Perhaps, in the beginning, they tried to do so, but frequent breakdowns of the saw forced them to abandon this. In the Barents Sea, the season of storms was approaching and in order to finish the lifting operation, the hull had to be sawed in the usual transverse way.
        Of course, what I have outlined is just a version of the Kursk's death, but I think it is quite serious.
    6. olegyurjewitch
      olegyurjewitch 10 May 2012 22: 36
      +2
      Quote: snek
      1. The hole shown on the case has only a part of the circle, and in the lower right corner you can see a sharp edge.

      A hole in the hull of the wheelhouse. And yet. If there was a torpedo hit, then after the explosion, hardly any traces remained in the place of impact, the place itself simply would not have remained. The torpedo, which was prepared for disposal by shooting during exercises, the so-called thick code 56-76.
      1. Delta
        Delta 10 May 2012 22: 48
        0
        65-76. Not for disposal. On a simple shot from a torpedo tube
  4. Ataturk
    Ataturk 10 May 2012 08: 12
    +14
    The kingdom of heaven is for those who died in this eyeliner. I will not wish such an excruciating death to the enemy. And how sorry for the mothers and fathers who lost their sons, I’m even afraid to imagine.

    My sincere condolences to the families of those who died in this terrible disaster.


    Culprits, if not in this world, then before God they will answer for everything.
  5. shipbuilder
    shipbuilder 10 May 2012 08: 32
    +6
    In the circles of informed divers, I heard confirmation of part of the official version, with few exceptions, the fire was caused by a collision with an American submarine, which, by coincidence, hit the TA cover with a prepared torpedo.
  6. alex86
    alex86 10 May 2012 08: 39
    +11
    I am not a specialist, but the Mk48 torpedo has a caliber of 533 mm, and the hole is not less than 1,5 m, in addition, the skin towards the stern is practically intact, if there was an explosion, there would be at least some trace of it. stay, so the origin of this particular hole is clearly not torpedo.
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 11: 09
      +1
      naturally not torpedo
    2. veryalone
      veryalone 11 May 2012 17: 06
      +1
      Needless to say: Strictly speaking, in the French film itself, the only factual evidence of its credibility is a still image that captures the hole in the light body on the starboard side. However, this hole is located in close proximity to the cut line of the nasal compartment, but there are no clear signs of the origin of this defect from the impact of a torpedo, and the solid case in this area is intact. American torpedoes Mk-48, referred to in the film, explode outside the hull and do not leave such holes. As a result of this, it can be assumed that the hole could have been formed as a result of lifting and towing operations, when placing the boat in the dock, etc. Another strong counterargument against the torpedo version is the mismatch between the capacities of the 1st and 2nd explosions on the Kursk, recorded by seismologists, and the power of the American torpedo
  7. 443190
    443190 10 May 2012 09: 14
    +11
    Great article !!! For URA PATRIOTISM it is impossible to forget history. It is necessary to draw conclusions from such tragic events and prevent their recurrence.
    TO THE HEROIC CREW ETERNAL MEMORY !!!
    All the same, they will not tell us anyway.
  8. Ross
    Ross 10 May 2012 09: 30
    +6
    Since politics is involved here, they will not tell us the truth. It remains to remember the heroes.
  9. crossbow
    crossbow 10 May 2012 09: 40
    +5
    It is unlikely that the Americans are to blame, although many would prefer this version, it’s a shame to admit that they themselves are to blame. Most likely there was either spontaneous detonation of an explosive of one of the combat torpedoes or a factory marriage of electric and electronic filling, which is not surprising, considering what kind of mess was in the nineties , and the marriage was hidden and it could not be found either at the manufacturer's factory, or with mandatory testing in the arsenal before loading onto the submarine, but when testing on board the submarine during exercises, it exploded.
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 11: 09
      +1
      torpedoes on board are not "tested". They are prepared, loaded into a torpedo tube and fired. But only
    2. shipbuilder
      shipbuilder 10 May 2012 11: 26
      +4
      Why did the Americans start to fuss? There would be no evidence that they had a snout in the gun, to hell would we have snatched it. But the truth is known to sailors - there are a lot of cases of collision and rapprochement in the areas of exercises, which would happen sooner or later, since there were no and no underwater law. It was necessary to raise such noise in the mind in order to force the bourgeoisie to create a legal field for underwater navigation, and not to the informal agreements that are now taking place.
      1. Delta
        Delta 10 May 2012 11: 30
        0
        Do you have evidence of collision or torpedoing? NO. Nobody has them. Memphis was examined by a Norwegian journalist. Found no damage. I am generally silent about the torpedo attack - from the realm of fantasy. And what is the fussiness of the Americans? as they were silent about their actions and are silent. And don't fuss
        1. shipbuilder
          shipbuilder 10 May 2012 11: 49
          +3
          My wife would also not have found signs of a collision. In addition, in that area there were three boats Memphis, Toledo and British. And which one ran straight into the states dashed off. Was the journalist probably in Norway?
          PS Who likes pictures of warships - navy mil.com website, photo gallery. Unfortunately only yusovskie.
          1. Delta
            Delta 10 May 2012 11: 56
            -3
            Do you really want the tracks to be?
            1. shipbuilder
              shipbuilder 10 May 2012 12: 01
              +4
              What are you minus? I haven’t written anything bad. The traces will be removed by speculation on the topic of poor crew training (which went through a military campaign in the Balkan conflict area) and poor-quality weapons.
              1. Delta
                Delta 10 May 2012 12: 09
                -2
                and we are already on "you"? how quickly))) I did not minus, by the way. That's how they got used to - to make statements without reason. I will not write about that trip, but the fact that there are documents confirming the unpreparedness of the crew to handle peroxide torpedoes is a fact. And the fact that since the 97th year "Kursk" has not performed torpedo firing is a fact. Here is the preparation. Doesn't it seem strange to you that the best always die?
                1. shipbuilder
                  shipbuilder 10 May 2012 12: 22
                  +2
                  In order to whitewash themselves, not such documents are concocted, although given the attitude of the then leadership towards our armed forces, this is possible. Regarding the death of the best, then in vain irony. Of course they are the best. I used to be afraid even to ride in the elevator, and they spent months at the reactors, with weapons for a beggarly salary, thinking whether there would be enough money for families to eat. In addition, the ship is a collective weapon, the mistake of one can lead to the death of all.
                  PS Sorry, got excited, I was just given the next rank, the commander’s disease started, I admired my epaulettes and here they again lowered me.)))
                  1. Delta
                    Delta 10 May 2012 12: 28
                    -2
                    You did not understand the main thing - in order to whitewash themselves the "naval commanders" invented a version of the collision. And even about torpedoing. It is important to them. And they have invented a crack in the coaming area. That is why the British rescue boat was then not allowed to board the Kursk, because it could dock and pump out water from the docking lock. The documents I spoke about were signed long before the disaster and reflect the real situation in the fleet, and in particular about the combat training of that crew. Are you talking about irony. Of course, irony (maybe it is inappropriate) - how can only the best die all the time, while the worst remain alive or what? by the way, the Kursk was not considered the best in the 1st flotilla. He was somewhere in the middle
                    1. shipbuilder
                      shipbuilder 10 May 2012 13: 05
                      +4
                      And the Americans didn’t give 10 billion, but our admirals.
                      As far as I remember, the admirals did not invent, but kept quiet. And their "punishment" indirectly confirms the American trace. Studying the disaster in the media is a thankless job, and combat training is a relative concept, an unprepared crew will not leave the sea.
                      1. Delta
                        Delta 10 May 2012 13: 26
                        +6
                        And for what they gave 10 billion? Have you read Cherkashin? so he is still a seascape-dreamer, like Pikul. Have you seen how Popov on the RTR channel staged a performance with "Allegedly accidentally hitting the frame of his brooding turnip and discussing where did the hole come from?" Have you studied this disaster in the media? me not. In particular, on the study of Vice Admiral Ryazantsev, who was a member of the commission to investigate the disaster. Based on his report, and not because of the mythical Americans, the admirals were fired. Otherwise, they would have remained in their places. So at least formally, justice prevailed, because violations in combat training, technical shortcomings and negligence were evident. Can you list them? Will you believe the facts or do you have one version - "your own-correct"?

                        An untrained crew at sea will not leave? Are you already openly mocking or just far from this topic as from the moon? give you examples when ONLY the actions of crews (in Soviet times) were the cause of the death of the nuclear submarines?
                      2. shipbuilder
                        shipbuilder 10 May 2012 13: 44
                        0
                        I really am not a submariner, far from this topic. Therefore, we will wait on the site of divers. I understand you about the death of Komsomolets and the disaster off the east coast of the United States? This is a topic for discourse. I am not strong in them.
                      3. Delta
                        Delta 10 May 2012 13: 56
                        +3
                        besides Komsomolets and K-219, there was also K-429, when 50% of the crew were from other boats and simply did not know how to do what was needed, lost their “linearity”. There was also a S-80, where a sailor attached from another boat, when the water rushed through the RDP shaft, instead of turning the handle to the right, turned to the left, because it was like that on his own boat. There was also a K-56, when they just decided to take a break and did not observe the situation, for which they received a bow (on the surface !!!). And there are plenty of such examples. So much for preparedness.
                      4. shipbuilder
                        shipbuilder 10 May 2012 14: 32
                        +1
                        I wanted to finish on this, but still answer. It seems that in spite of your awareness, it seems that you are also far from the fleet. I myself am a techie and I know how the transport management was built, be it the Navy, aviation or steam locomotives.
                        1. Often raw equipment is supplied, which requires safety violations during operation, which has a low resource and reliability.
                        2. Also, it happens that overly sophisticated equipment is supplied, requiring large maintenance costs than was stated.
                        3. Shortcomings during installation and design, which leads to the impossibility and / or significant difficulties with those. maintenance, repair and daily operation.
                        4. Often the coastal manager (headquarters, etc.) creates conditions when violations are inevitable. (forcing with a "ruble", or lack of the necessary spare parts or repairs.) And everyone knows everything, but for discussion it is taboo.
                        Moreover, the transport / armed forces have a guilty plea, that is, you have to prove that you are not to blame, but with the current management system this is not possible. + Of course, the human factor as a catalyst.
                        As an example, the latest aircraft catastrophes: (why exactly are they? They cannot be hidden because they are often catastrophic.) They were not treated with an anti-icing fluid - it seems that the pilots are to blame, but the pilot will never give up safety without pressure from above in the form of "briefings" and conversations, and if will object and may lose work, or they will not give bonuses, or the second will fly all his life, and such examples are countless.
                        PS You yourself said the nuclear submarines, but gave all the examples. On the S-80 there would be a competently designed zadrovaniya system that does not allow errors, nothing would have happened. There are rarely accidents and disasters where a purely human factor has worked. It is always a complex of errors, starting with design. When they hang noodles, according to statistics 80% of accidents due to the human factor always remember this. When working for a large company / ministry, they often push off the responsibility for operation / person (except for the insured equipment, then vice versa) to minimize damage and preserve their seats.
                      5. shipbuilder
                        shipbuilder 10 May 2012 17: 36
                        +2
                        I have not yet mentioned the psycho-physical factor, which is the main cause of personnel error. When they say they say that Ivan did something wrong, I have several questions:
                        1. When was the last time Ivanov rested and how much.
                        2. Duties of Ivanov.
                        3. When was the briefing given and by whom.
                        4. This someone had time to spend in fact or not.
                        5. How many Ivanovs are at work (swimming).
                        By the way, I don’t know if we have complete submarine simulators for working out emergency situations? Indeed, on a real object, training is problematic due to the fact that many actions are done conditionally.
                        I agree with many of your comments, but so far I do not agree about the unavailability of the crew.
                      6. Delta
                        Delta 10 May 2012 18: 01
                        -2
                        study

                        http://lib.rus.ec/b/214731/read#t1

                        much will become clear
                      7. olegyurjewitch
                        olegyurjewitch 11 May 2012 00: 00
                        +1
                        Quote: Delta
                        when 50% of the crew were from other boats and just

                        When replacing more than 30% of the full-time personnel, the division commander is obliged to stop the crew’s voyage and begin training with task L-! with the preparation and delivery of KAPL tasks in full.
                        In this case, 47 specialists from different crews were seconded aboard, which amounted to 54% of the staff.
                        The boat went out to sea with a malfunction and a very serious leakage of the ventilation system in 4 compartments. Malfunction, not compatible with diving (from the book of Chernov E.D. "Secrets of underwater disasters"
                      8. Bear52
                        Bear52 11 May 2012 02: 31
                        0
                        olegyurjewitch, about the "division", however, you got excited, do you agree? = Best regards ...
                      9. olegyurjewitch
                        olegyurjewitch 11 May 2012 17: 48
                        0
                        Quote: Bear52
                        olegyurjewitch, about the "division", however, you got excited, do you agree? = Best regards ...

                        That is what Chernov wrote.
                    2. volcano
                      volcano 11 May 2012 14: 16
                      -1
                      Damn Delta Well, you yourself hear that? What version of torpedoing did the naval commanders make? Just no one has officially considered this version. Because there probably was a taboo that can indirectly confirm the version of torpedoing. You are interesting to ask questions. You yourself read one admiral, and that's it for you, the question is closed. Strange you come to a discussion. I thought you were a submariner yourself.
                      By the way, to your other comment about the first flotilla. The nuclear submarine "Kursk" was part of the 11th squadron of nuclear submarines of the Northern Fleet, specifically in the 7th division stationed in Vidyaevo. The squadron was 2. 11 with bases in the Western face (I don't remember the division number) and Vidyaevo (7th division) and 12 squadron of the Northern Fleet submarine (With a base in Gadzhievo, if my memory serves me 24 and 31 divisions. And about the first flotilla, I have something not I heard.
                      1. Delta
                        Delta 11 May 2012 15: 02
                        +2
                        so you probably didn’t watch TV when you picked up the Kursk. One of the photos in this thread is just that report. When the officials staged a show, allegedly accidentally falling under the camera, they reasoned - maybe it could be a torpedo or not. And about the taboo - this is purely your speculation. Have you seen at least somewhere the statement of at least one professional submariner that this is torpedoing? Please give me such a statement, I read it with interest.
                        I did not read ONE admiral, as you deigned to put it. I studied this question for a long time. Well, then - THIS admiral was in the commission of inquiry, was not interested in a lie, because now in stock.

                        I am asking interesting questions, but do you have answers or just emotions? that's how everything goes on emotions.

                        Regarding the flotilla: The order of the fleet commander to enroll the atomic submarine in the 1st flotilla was issued in mid-February 1995 (the nuclear submarine arrived in Vidyaevo in mid-January 1995), the order of the 1st flotilla commander to enroll in the flotilla was issued in mid March 1995 What are you trying to catch me with? I may be mistaken in such data. Does this change the essence? The 7th division has been part of the 1994st submarine flotilla since 1
                      2. volcano
                        volcano 11 May 2012 15: 48
                        -1
                        the trouble is that many have studied this question for a long time and everyone has different versions. As for the state commission, see point one. In your opinion, could the state commission conclude that Kursk died due to an American torpedo? Personally, I am sure that we would have quickly recognized his death from alien weapons, so in any case, we will not know the truth. I just don’t like it when people evaluate other people based on statements from third parties. Normal guys are our submariners. This is not their fault. And as for the flotillas, I too, of course, may not be entirely accurate. I talked about them as of 2002, when I actually arrived at ..... in general, there
                      3. Delta
                        Delta 11 May 2012 16: 17
                        +1
                        guys are normal, I do not argue. Yes, only the preparation is weak. And this is not what I came up with, I stress again. You just feel offended to read and admit it is difficult. Not from the statements of housewives, I made my conclusions. In the state commission, as it turned out, there were also different people. There were also those who opposed the existing system and directly spoke about the flaws in the fleet. About what could lead to disaster, all the details are painted, the heap of which, coupled with certain circumstances, led to the death.

                        I repeat - there is no 100% correct version. But the fact that this hole is not from a torpedo is exactly 100%. And the subsequent statements about tricky torpedoes and unambiguous conclusions from the arrival of the head of the CIA are all the more nonsense.

                        As for the flotillas: what, isn’t there already a 7th division now? and she is not in the first flotilla? I'm not ironic, it's just a question
              2. Aleksey67
                Aleksey67 10 May 2012 12: 14
                +2
                Quote: shipbuilder
                What are you minus?

                I set the cons.
                1. shipbuilder
                  shipbuilder 10 May 2012 12: 25
                  +3
                  Tell me what you disagree with
                  1. Aleksey67
                    Aleksey67 10 May 2012 13: 11
                    +5
                    Damn, the site is buggy already answered, but did not pass, okay on a new smile
                    Quote: shipbuilder
                    Why did the Americans start to fuss? There would be no evidence that they had a snout in the gun, to hell would we have snatched it. But the truth is known to sailors - there are a lot of cases of collision and rapprochement in the areas of exercises, that sooner or later this would have happened, since there was no underwater law

                    Amer and did not fuss, but ours were supposed to ensure the protection of the test area.
                    Quote: shipbuilder
                    My wife would also not have found signs of a collision.

                    A very good argument, further in your comments delve into laziness
        2. kostiknet
          kostiknet 10 May 2012 16: 51
          +1
          Quote: Delta
          Memphis was examined by a Norwegian journalist. Found no damage.

          Here is a true expert in the field of military forensics !!! HIGHLY PROFESSIONAL AND INCORRECT ESTIMATION (Is Norway Norway not a member of NATO?) fool
          1. Delta
            Delta 10 May 2012 17: 22
            0
            Well, of course, the only incorruptible expert is you. And the Russian admirals thought so, as if to show their guilt to everyone, and not mythical torpedoing. Or have you seen an American torpedo? own inventions - that’s all you have. And then - based on likes and dislikes, and not on technical assumptions
        3. Esso
          Esso 10 May 2012 19: 28
          +2
          Memphis was examined by a Norwegian journalist! I was laughing. You trust us with a purely journalistic investigation. We now have an expert journalist. You think and don’t go crazy. Any military object is prepared for the arrival of journalists, anyone! And they only give what you can shoot! Memorize it!
          1. Delta
            Delta 10 May 2012 21: 33
            +2
            I will definitely take your note into account))))))

            I am laughing at your statements about Memphis, monetary compensation, and more. Well, when they started about the torpedoes - he was completely dead)))) It seems that you didn’t even learn physics, what kind of underwater thing is there ...
            1. olegyurjewitch
              olegyurjewitch 11 May 2012 00: 11
              +3
              Quote: Delta
              what an underwater affair.

              Guys, these are all tales with torpedoes, believe me, I myself served on a boat, and by the way on the 1st flotilla. If this happened, even if we were weak at that time, it would end in hostilities, with unpredictable consequences. So this is nonsense sucked from one hypothetical version of what happened. Explosion of a torpedo proved, followed by detonation of ammunition. Eternal memory to sailors!
          2. veryalone
            veryalone 11 May 2012 17: 05
            +1
            Nevertheless, even a journalist would see all significant damage. And judging by her videos, she just climbed everywhere - and she would still have discovered putty fools ... But they weren’t.
      2. olegyurjewitch
        olegyurjewitch 10 May 2012 23: 33
        +3
        Quote: shipbuilder
        Why did the Americans start to fuss?

        Well, firstly, when practicing training firing, as well as during exercises, a warning is given to all vessels that such squares with coordinates such as these are declared closed to shipping, secondly, being in the area of ​​military exercises of foreign ships is fraught with consequences, well, in the third AWACS in such cases, both surface and submarine ships, of course, established the presence of other targets that are not indicated in the exercise regulations, but this is not necessary in the exercise zone, nearby but not in the zone. If the ship is in contact, it means outside, there is no secrecy, for it is on the head not gladyat.Vosstanovit secrecy is not easy, it requires a certain maneuvers, and the Barents Sea is not the best place on the scale.
        1. Delta
          Delta 10 May 2012 23: 51
          0
          backward segments of the population simply do not understand that Los Angeles can be watched from 50 miles away. And that will be enough for her. and this will also be "near"
  10. DEMENTIY
    DEMENTIY 10 May 2012 10: 01
    +4
    All this is sad only.
    In this regard, for some reason, the phrase is recalled:
    "There is a truth that is unpleasantly similar to a lie and there is a lie that is very similar to the truth."
  11. Vito
    Vito 10 May 2012 10: 02
    +4
    Most likely, we most likely will not find out. Personally, I have questions about the actions of our authorities to save the KURSK crew. How much time was lost, well, maybe at least someone would be saved? Why haven’t they tried so professionally for so long? And did anyone from the higher management want anyone to survive on the submarine and give true testimonies! ETERNAL MEMORY OF OUR Sailors!
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 11: 07
      +4
      there was already no one to save, for the last 23 sailors of the 12th were killed. It showed a forensic examination. Another thing is that they could not know this then and could save more professionally. When saving, the devices could not dock for coaming for a long time. But at the docking they couldn’t pump out the water and the lock could not happen. There is only one reason - the old sealing rubber of rescue vehicles, which had long had to be replaced and the report about which was given by the commander of the AC-34. And they called the crack of the hatch the cause. After raising the submarine, no cracks were found, but it is not beneficial for anyone to talk about it
      1. Aleksey67
        Aleksey67 10 May 2012 11: 11
        +6
        Quote: Delta
        One reason - the old sealing rubber rescue vehicles

        For the sloppiness of some, others must become heroes ...
        Quote: Delta
        and what the commander of the AC-34 was reporting.

        Is it worth the prosecutor’s office to start a business, because the nits are still alive?
      2. Vito
        Vito 10 May 2012 11: 24
        +5
        Delta Maybe you're right, I do not argue. At least all this fuss with search and rescue looked somehow strange!
  12. nnnnnnnnn
    nnnnnnnnn 10 May 2012 10: 08
    0
    Minus the article, the author either copied, or a complete nerd doing PR for the memory of the dead, the article is written for housewives and pimple youths or for shit and liberals. I read his pearls such as:
    And some American experts even argue that such a hole is a kind of brand name of the American torpedo MK-48, which is able to pass through the steel casing thanks to a special mechanism that is located on the nose and is capable of to melt copper.
    moreover, copper is light and the robust submarine cases are made of steel or titanium.
    Yes, and a posthumous note captain of a submarine cruiser clearly indicates that at that time there was no one left on board who could ask for help.
    the note on the photographs is a leaf from the logbook of the 9th compartment by Captain-Lieutenant Kolesnikov, commander of the turbine group, movement division БЧ-5.
    Moreover, during the search and rescue operation, until the moment when the situation was still not controlled by the authorities, information appeared in the media that light green rescue buoys were found near the place of the Kursk’s death, although the Russians use only white and red. Another evidence of the plausibility of this version is the reception of signals for help, which the cruiser Peter the Great received on August 13-14. And if initially the rescuers hoped that these signals were sent from Kursk, then later, after decoding them, it became clear that they came from a foreign submarine (they were supplied by a mechanical emitter, but they are not used on Russian submarines).
    The submarine has two emergency buoys, on the bow and in the stern, these buoys are no different from the buoys used by the Americans and others, mechanical emitter is that what the author means a black man sitting on a buoy and beating a bell?
    perished crew eternal memory and low bow.
  13. runway
    runway 10 May 2012 10: 09
    +2
    It would seem, well, what else can be added, because everything is clearly shown.
    In the first TV story and a lie detector, you don’t need to see that the creature opposite King is impudently lying. Particularly outraged by the attitude of this creature to the dead people. It does not express a single drop of sympathy for the victims and condolences to their families and friends. It says that he had "offers" in connection with the tragedy to stop his vacation in Sochi, BUT IT WAS CONTINUED TO RELAX ...
    In the second television story, Dorenko after each (!!!) sentence of this creature showed that he was lying.
    But as it turned out, some even this is not enough to understand the TRUTH ABOUT THE DEATH OF THE KURSK CREW. Or pretend?
  14. Spartak
    Spartak 10 May 2012 10: 11
    +4
    Eternal memory to the guys. Unfortunately, if we find out the truth, it will not be soon. And if this truth turns out to be bitter, then may God punish those who deceived the relatives of the victims, deceived their fellow citizens.

    "There is no rest for those who have done evil.
    These people are so unlucky.
    There is no peace for those who indulge
    To those who knew and still were silent "
    1. Alexei
      Alexei 11 May 2012 15: 46
      +2
      Quote: Spartak
      Unfortunately, if we find out the truth, it will not be soon.

      Not soon and not what it is, but a convenient excuse by then. We are supposed to know what is supposed to be about others, and to others it is mutually only supposed to know about us.
  15. erased
    erased 10 May 2012 10: 42
    +5
    Whatever the real reasons for the tragedy, the perpetrators are still not punished. When the rustic village was on Red Square, shoulder straps fell off from many military ranks. And after the destruction of the Kursk, only awards were handed out. Here they are - the new realities of Russia.
    1. 703-s
      703-s 10 May 2012 11: 32
      +7
      nothing new is said.
      they wanted to sink an American boat. but Putin was scared
      to give an order !
      and sold the boys for 10 billion.
      I happened to be at a meeting of graduates of the Sevastopol "galoshes".
      and no one believes in official tales.
      I’ll be in Sevastopol in the summer and take pictures from the monument to one of the submariners. there such correct verses are written, for which this site mercilessly minus.

      and nothing has changed about the awards.
      The last awarded: Makarov, Gorbach, Churov!
  16. nnnnnnnnn
    nnnnnnnnn 10 May 2012 10: 46
    +4
    Article minus copy-paste poor translation? or the author does not understand what the pearl is for example:And some American experts even argue that such a hole is a kind of brand name of the American torpedo MK-48, which is able to pass through the steel casing thanks to a special mechanism that is located on the nose and is capable of to melt copper. hulls of submarines are made of steel or titanium, and where does the copper?
    Moreover, during the search and rescue operation until the moment when the situation was not yet controlled by the authorities, information leaked to the media that light green rescue buoys were found near the place of the Kursk’s death, although the Russians only use white and red. Another evidence of the credibility of this version is the reception of signals for help, which the cruiser Peter the Great received on August 13-14. And if initially the rescuers hoped that these signals were sent from Kursk, then later, after decoding them, it became clear that they came from a foreign submarine (Moreover, during the search and rescue operation until the moment when the situation was not yet controlled by the authorities, information leaked to the media that light green rescue buoys were found near the place of the Kursk’s death, although Russians use only white and red buoys. Russia is receiving signals of help received by the cruiser Peter the Great on August 13-14, and if the rescuers initially hoped that these signals were sent from Kursk, then later, after decoding them, it became clear that they came from a foreign submarine (they were supplied by a mechanical emitter, but they are not used on Russian submarines).
    On a submarine there are two buoys, one on the bow and the other on the stern, the device of these buoys is no different from each other, and this opus is like you mechanical emitter, is this how an American sailor sits on a buoy and hits the market or a tambourine?
    And the posthumous note of the captain of the submarine cruiser clearly indicates that at that time there was no one left on the ship who could ask for help.
    Commander "Kursk" Captain 1st Rank G. Lyachin the photograph of the note is from the logbook of the 9th compartment written by captain-lieutenant Dmitry Kolesnikov, commander of the turbine group of the movement division БЧ-5.
  17. Indigo
    Indigo 10 May 2012 10: 52
    +3
    And some American experts even argue that such a hole is a kind of trademark of the American MK-48 torpedo, which is able to pass through steel plating bthanks to a special mechanism that is located on the nose and is able to melt copper.

    However, American specialists, such specialists, or the author smoked something heavy ... or I am tormented by doubts that Kursk was made of copper and luminium ...
    Lyachin was an experienced commander and such a colossus as Kursk; in fact, he could not extort himself at a depth of about 100m.
    There must have been trouble in the dash itself, as in Bulava, where something is wrong and crooked, and trouble, it crawled out sideways ...
    Eternal Glory and Memory to the crew of Kursk !!!
  18. crossbow
    crossbow 10 May 2012 10: 53
    +3
    Spartak,
    Quote: "There is no rest for those who have done evil.
    These people are so unlucky.
    There is no peace for those who indulge
    Those who knew and still were silent "...


    If it were so ....
  19. Delta
    Delta 10 May 2012 11: 00
    +12
    The article is complete nonsense. The clash version is beneficial to everyone, especially the former and current fleet command. About a hole in the body - chickens to laugh. Modern torpedoes explode without breaking through a light body (and only light in this case, given the fact that the solid body remained intact in that place), but exploding in the vicinity of the propellers, making noise.
    Vice-Admiral Valery Ryazantsev, a member of the commission of inquiry, described the reasons for the explosion in his report with sufficient skill and truth. At the same time, the version of the same Spassky does not stand up to criticism. Now he declares that after the first explosion there was a fire in the first compartment, which caused the explosion of the rest of the torpedoes, then he admits that there are no traces of fire on the torpedoes themselves. We must not forget that the crew was not the best (may the dead forgive me, although they are not to blame for the preparation). Their flotation was 12-14 days a year !! Apart from the Mediterranean campaign. There, half of the officers did not have admission to independent management. Nobody knew how to handle peroxide torpedoes; a sailor from another boat connected these torpedoes to the system. A torpedo officer assigned from another Kursk firing boat brought documents on these torpedoes from a boat of another project !!! And they blamed everything on a non-existent enterprise in Alma-Ata and some already non-existent welder who welded something wrong in 1990. Very comfortably. Do not forget about the design features (I would even say - shortcomings) of this ship. In particular, when firing torpedoes in salvo, the designers recommended the crew to depressurize the first and second compartments, i.e. make them adjacent by opening the ventilation ducts. This makes the ship incredibly vulnerable in emergency situations. This is exactly what happened after the explosion of the first torpedo - in the first compartment everyone was dead, because the explosion of even a practical (training) torpedo causes lethal pressure on a person. In the second compartment, everyone was wounded by the explosion and did not control the situation. The ship, through a destroyed torpedo tube, took hundreds of tons of water in two minutes, going to a depth, uncontrollable, collided with the ground at a speed of about 3 knots. At the same time, the angle of incidence became such that the torpedo tubes were crushed, the combat torpedoes in them detonated. The crew in other compartments could do nothing. Like this. And no figs to chat about some foreign buoys - there were none. The official chronicle speaks of a buoy-like jellyfish. And no one caught him. By the way, the perpetrators were named. 14 admirals lost their posts. BUT!! As it is customary for us - almost all those who lost their positions went to the promotion. And Popov is generally a deputy.
    1. Vito
      Vito 10 May 2012 11: 19
      +4
      Delta Greetings. It's a shame that they were so "punished" so severely. This causes impunity and indifference!
    2. Aleksey67
      Aleksey67 10 May 2012 11: 23
      +8
      DeltaThank you for the objective and reasoned comment. It can be seen that they are not familiar with the underwater service from literature. good It's nice that there are such forum users drinks
    3. controller
      controller 11 May 2012 22: 22
      +2
      One submariner spoke about his friend decommissioned from Kursk. So, if I don’t confuse, about a year before the death of the boat he was instructed to get these hydrogen torpedoes for training firing. He refused, because they need constant maintenance that no one conducts and does not know how to conduct, and shooting them in this state is similar to Russian roulette. In general, this submariner was fired quietly and in his place they put a young man who waved his saber and received these unfortunate torpedoes.
      I retell it may not quite exactly as they told me, but I hope the meaning is clear.
      So, probably, we also have ammunition in warehouses torn. For example, you can take a tank shell, which at the first push (shot) becomes a platoon, and at the second (hit an obstacle) explodes. For the first push, it is enough to drop it from two meters high somewhere in the warehouse during loading, the second will be when fired in the gun itself. With hydrogen torpedoes, I think everything is much more complicated.
  20. Kars
    Kars 10 May 2012 11: 03
    +7
    And some American experts even claim that such a hole is a kind of brand name of the American torpedo MK-48, which is able to pass through the steel sheathing thanks to a special mechanism that is located on the nose and is able to melt copper.

    Read more: http://topwar.ru/14155-gibel-kurska-tayny-bolshe-net.html

    Armor-piercing torpedoes are nonsense.
    1. Tatanka Yotanka
      Tatanka Yotanka 10 May 2012 14: 13
      0
      [quote = Kars] And some American experts even argue that such a hole is a kind of brand name for the American MK-48 torpedo, which is able to pass through steel plating thanks to a special mechanism that is located on the nose and is able to melt copper.

      the statement is really absurd, but I think it's the difficulties of technical translation or the journalists got it wrong, the film talks about the uranium core and copper rim which enters into some kind of reaction in the explosion to raise the temperature

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwBMKwRAVmw&feature=related
  21. viktorrymar
    viktorrymar 10 May 2012 11: 46
    +7
    Moreover, during the search and rescue operation until the moment when the situation was not yet controlled by the authorities, information appeared in the media that light green rescue buoys were found near the place of the Kursk’s death, although the Russians only use white and red.

    But if the British zealously defended their innocence, demanding proof from the Russians, then the Americans acted more restrainedly, as if they had something to hide. But the truth was that: on the seabed, rescuers discovered a conning tower fence, which is usually installed on American submarines
    It turns out that the American boat torpedoed ours, and then it began to fall apart: threw buoys, oil stains, dropped the guard from the conning tower))) - some strange torpedo attack, do not you think?

    Read more: http://topwar.ru/14155-gibel-kurska-tayny-bolshe-net.html
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 11: 55
      +2
      yeah, strange - this is at least.
  22. Evrepid
    Evrepid 10 May 2012 12: 11
    0
    I myself am not a submariner, but the father of the submariner said that no one was alive immediately after the explosion.
    It was based on the fact that there was a crack in the hatch of the last compartment.
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 12: 34
      +6
      talk of a crack was not confirmed after lifting the boat. Father submariner did not watch the news? there were at least three notes — Kolesnikov, Sadilenko, and another officer. Moreover, Sadilenko’s note was written in even handwriting, which means that there was still light at that time. The notes confirm that approximately 10 hours after the explosion occurred in the boat, 23 sailors survived - in the 9th compartment. Submariners found there were almost all burned, Kolesnikov was burned at the top to the bone. This suggests that when equipping the plates that regenerate oxygen, a fire occurred, which was not possible to extinguish (these plates are not quenched by water or sand, because they themselves produce oxygen). The fire burned out the last oxygen, everyone died from suffocation, and not from drowning (these are the results of forensic examination).
  23. nokki
    nokki 10 May 2012 12: 30
    +5
    Forgive us guys! .. Peace be with you Heaven and everlasting peace! .. And we will still know the truth! For God is with us!
  24. TRex
    TRex 10 May 2012 12: 42
    +8
    "Copper smelting torpedoes" amers ... it's cool. I don’t want to touch upon the reasons for the death of the Kursk - there are too many questions and indistinct answers ... some versions. And if some "Memphis" or "Toledo" are to blame, then I wish our commanders to be angry and have a good memory.
    But the rescue operation should be touched separately. Where was the Northern Fleet ACS and why, having the nuclear submarines in service, we cannot help the crew in an emergency? Do we have disposable boats? Like people?
    The catamaran "Kommuna" has been sailing on the Black Sea Fleet for over 100 years! Can you imagine the level of technology in service?
    There are no Russian words that are not obscene when I think that the length of the boat was almost two depths on which it lay. And if we had modern means of salvation, we would get from the last compartment living boys ... Eh .. if so, if only ... Gossip, irresponsibility, cowardice ... "She drowned ..."Bl ...!
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 13: 13
      +8
      The devil knows how old the rescue vessel "Mikhail Rudnitsky" is, and it was put on readiness to go to sea for 1 hour only 12 hours after the explosion. As if no one on Peter the Great felt the explosion. We felt all the shuddering of the case, the acoustics said about the explosion, but ... I wrote above about how they docked, but it should also be noted that the batteries, which had exhausted their resource, did not hold a charge, and therefore almost never really "sucked" them not enough. And also the failed antennas, because of which they had to aim at the boat from the rescue vessel. We must remember the main thing - financing. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, even completely new warships were sold and cut, let alone the rescue service. By the way, it was beneficial for some people not to find anyone alive. Maybe that's why they didn't call deep divers (and there are some in Russia). To the enclosures for connecting and supplying air to the boat from the outside (and even hot coffee) is possible only by divers, and not by devices and their manipulators.

      As for depth and length ... I cannot agree. In the 39th year, the British were able to save the submariners and the submarine "Tethys", the stern of which stuck out for a long time on the surface
      1. Delta
        Delta 10 May 2012 13: 45
        0
        those. Failed
    2. PARROT
      PARROT 10 May 2012 13: 50
      0
      Regarding the rescue operation, there was a chance that the Norwegians would save part of the crew, Norway offered help, but your authorities refused.
  25. heruv1me
    heruv1me 10 May 2012 12: 54
    +9
    In the article, a typo about copper, in fact, a torpedo does not melt copper, just on the nose of this torpedo there is a copper ring and it collides in some way (when it warms up to a state of melting or can turn into a plasma, understand horseradish :)) it contributes to a more confident passage plating. Another feature of this torpedo is that from a pair of nasal devices it can be let in instantly, without preparation time, the guidance system directs it precisely to the torpedo compartment, where we see a hole, and as far as I remember it DOES NOT EXPLETE but causes an extensive FIRE.
    In general, think for yourself, decide for yourself, but I do not believe the official version, the words "she drowned" jar me, we were sold and will be sold, I did not vote for PU and I do not support its activities. I think that the country is slowly, not quite skillfully, being prepared for surrender, trying to beat out more profitable conditions.
    You can minus.
    1. Kars
      Kars 10 May 2012 13: 07
      +3
      Quote: heruv1me
      heating up to a state of melting or it can turn into a plasma, get the hell out of it :)

      Now imagine the heat capacity of the surrounding sea water and the steel side of the torpedoed object. The moment of the rebound upon impact is how long the contact will take.
      It’s just interesting where you can read the characteristics of the topedos because I looked at the truth on surface ships; a torpedo explodes under the bottom.
    2. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 13: 15
      +2
      Did you write all this seriously? It's not a minus, but technical literacy and logic, at least. As for Putin .... that's interesting, but what was he supposed to answer a clearly provocative and stupid question?
    3. Voodoo
      Voodoo 10 May 2012 13: 25
      +2
      We can give you our Janik with Ahmet))) Oh, these are definitely faster than your nut-cut Russia! Ukraine has already been torn ... Sori, that is off topic.
  26. Cuba
    Cuba 10 May 2012 13: 10
    +1
    Guys, even if the Americans did this, the GDP chose the lesser evil, if they gave an answer (they used force) there would be World War 3 .. Have you ever thought about this? I had to sacrifice a hundred sailors to save the lives of millions, including ours with you.
    1. TRex
      TRex 10 May 2012 13: 42
      +10
      Tomorrow, by mistake, bombed in Severomorsk or P / Pavlovsk ... Horseradish with them-save the lives of millions ??? Powers was shot down, the Korean Boeing was overwhelmed, and there were many more. With boors it is necessary in boorish, otherwise they become impudent.
      Russia is not Honduras!
    2. 703-s
      703-s 10 May 2012 14: 29
      +3
      Cuba
      there were no people close to you.
      and people close to me died there!
  27. Voodoo
    Voodoo 10 May 2012 13: 14
    +4
    As for the "business card" of the Mk48 torpedo, I can say that I saw the American documentary film where they sank a decommissioned destroyer from a submarine with this torpedo. So, according to the computer graphics, you can see that the torpedo was detonated under the bottom of the destroyer. Due to the strongest blast wave and the following vacuum rarefaction, the ship's hull fractured. In the video, the spectacle is even more eerie - with one torpedo, the ship is cut in half! An explosion of such force that mama do not cry!
    In our case, maybe this version of the Mk48 torpedo is purely anti-submarine with different parameters and direction of the blast wave ?? The fact that she is sinking a large warship is beyond doubt. The sub will probably sink too. And the Kursk ...? I do not know. How is the version? But it is also quite likely. But just to smack about the "Kursk", the amers must have had reasons. And so ... a dummy. Interestingly, do our boats have something like "black boxes"? If there is, then for sure there should be infa about targeting the boat and the subsequent torpedo attack. But it seems to me that we will not find out the truth soon, or we will not find out at all. I just feel sorry for the guys. Their eternal memory and eternal rest ...
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 13: 36
      +2
      there are no black boxes and never were. True, after the "Komsomolets" they were forced to keep an audio recording of the crew's actions during accidents, but there were no special means for this. The command simply advised the crews to drop off and buy ordinary tape recorders, which, of course, have neither fire nor water protection. There was such a tape recorder on the Kursk, it was found after the ascent, but there were only the recordings of the Lyube group and no crew talks.
  28. Darn
    Darn 10 May 2012 13: 32
    0
    After all, such a large submarine, and perhaps there is not a small space for a rescue capsule for the crew. I read about the tragedy of the Komsomolets submarine where the rescue capsule did not help, but times have changed, maybe now it can be brought to mind.
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 13: 39
      +3
      um .... there is a rescue capsule for the entire crew. How, explain, the crew could use it if from the first to the fourth compartment everything was pressed through by the explosion? including people, machinery, bulkheads. And people in these compartments died instantly. The escape pod is located above the 2nd compartment. You would somehow still learn what a submarine is. On "Komsomolets" the rescue capsule did not help because of the illiterate actions of the crew. By the way, one person (midshipman Slyusarenko) was saved thanks to her. And the commander of the submarine is still in it. Three more with him
      1. Darn
        Darn 10 May 2012 14: 31
        0
        Your gland’s arguments, but do you have any suggestions on how to save the crew in such a situation? I understand that one of the most important measures of survival is precisely the high training of sailors.
        1. Delta
          Delta 10 May 2012 14: 48
          +4
          in such a situation, several factors would be the key to salvation:
          1. The detachment of warships after the explosion simply left the area, without waiting for the submarine to emerge and the results of torpedo firing, which could not be done. If the OBK had taken steps to clarify the reasons for the silence of the boat, then it would not have been declared emergency 12 hours after the explosion.
          2. If the rescue vehicles were technically ready, docking and withdrawal of the surviving crew members could be carried out. About sealing rubber and batteries of the devices mentioned above


          By the way, the sailors themselves did not go to the surface, most likely precisely for the reason that they knew that there were ships at the top and everyone had heard such an explosion. And then, when I didn’t wait for help for several hours, when the pressure in the compartment reached the critical level for free exit (by locking) to the surface, there was only one exit - to flood the compartment and exit already flooded, with delays at a depth to comply with the decompression mode. Maybe they tried to do it, but too much oil from the tanks floated in the compartment water. If even a drop of oil falls on the regeneration plate, a fire occurs that cannot be extinguished by anything.
      2. Voodoo
        Voodoo 11 May 2012 13: 31
        0
        My classmate served at Komsomolets for 3 years. Demobilized a month before the death of the boat. As I found out, he had been drinking for a week, as he himself later said, either out of grief, because so many of his yesterday's comrades had died, or out of joy that he himself did not die. One word is stress. It can be understood ... Fate.
  29. Engus007
    Engus007 10 May 2012 13: 41
    -4
    I was traveling on a train with one sailor-signalman (they were then all released on holidays after these events) so he told me this version: he served on the main ship (as it was Petr1, I don’t remember right now) there were exercises like torpedo fire . And now, when Kursk was supposed to launch a torpedo (literally the countdown went one second), he listened to her like a chief shooting commander (who was there xs) yelling that they say why Kursk is in a surface position? (Not quite in a surface position, but something sticks out simply) well and Kursk begins to dive, well, he dived, and the depth was small there, so the torpedo went to the bottom, well, then you know what happened ... How do you like this version?
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 13: 50
      +3
      version of a drunken sailor. Not higher. And therefore it is clearly in the junk. "Kursk" went in periscope position, which he had to do to identify the target - a detachment of warships, which was represented by two BODs and the cruiser "Peter the Great". It would be interesting to watch the torpedo shooting when the ship makes sharp jumps. Oh interesting ...
      1. Aleksey67
        Aleksey67 10 May 2012 13: 57
        +7
        Deltaadequate forum member good Stay on the site, do not leave, it's nice to read your comments smile
        1. Delta
          Delta 10 May 2012 14: 30
          +10
          only one dissent runs now and minuses))) it became obvious that it indicated illiteracy)))
          1. Aleksey67
            Aleksey67 10 May 2012 14: 39
            +4
            Quote: Delta
            Abydna became

            Vyacheslav, do not pay attention to minusers, There are more good people, I used to (sometimes now) for each comment with 6 minuses, but sensible comments are visible right away. You only need "+" from me
        2. Bear52
          Bear52 11 May 2012 02: 50
          +3
          Delta, adequate forum member = join and support! good
          1. Voodoo
            Voodoo 12 May 2012 14: 00
            +2
            I support Delta !!! fellow Nice to chat with a competent person. drinks
  30. Uncle
    Uncle 10 May 2012 13: 54
    +6
    The author of the article, if he undertakes to discuss on technical topics, it would be necessary to read and communicate with the competent people. The fact that Amer’s boats follow ours is normal, it has always been like that. Amer could start firing only if he heard that a torpedo tube had opened. Apparently, it was. The crew is unprepared, fact. We did not have time to unload practical torpedoes, also a fact. When Komsomolets drowned, they were also in no hurry with help, from which the number of victims increased. They didn’t drown the Amer’s boat, and it’s right, there were similar incidents, K219, and they didn’t drown Sea Wolf. In my opinion, the cause of the tragedy is a coincidence. Well, Putin benefited from this, well, do not start a war! But the only question is bewildering why the rescue vehicle did not sit on the coaming site?
  31. Alone
    Alone 10 May 2012 14: 02
    +1
    I then studied at a technical university, at the department of which the systems of the electric drive of torpedo bomb bays for boats of this type were developed, incl. and for Kursk. On the very first day of news the head of the department said that a malfunction of the drive system, or "self-detonation" of the torpedo, is absolutely excluded.
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 14: 15
      +2
      "torpedo bomb bays" do not exist in nature. After the explosion of a peroxide torpedo on a British boat, which exploded on the Kursk, Great Britain and the United States abandoned the use of such torpedoes. And here are some electric drives ??? what are you speaking about??
      1. Alone
        Alone 11 May 2012 14: 45
        -2
        I’m not a submariner, and I named them based on my knowledge. You don’t have to grab a word, you know, about the drives, study all versions of this incident, and then try to enter into the discussion.
        1. Delta
          Delta 11 May 2012 15: 34
          0
          and so you explain to me, what does any electric drive of the hatches to the explosion have to do with it? Well, or to torpedo all the more)))

          By the way, regarding the mind: if a person does not possess not only technical specialized knowledge, but even logic, does not actually know what he is talking about, then does he have a great mind, discussing such topics or trying to retell someone?
          1. Alone
            Alone 15 May 2012 16: 46
            -1
            I expressed the information that I possessed. Where did you see the reasoning on my part, dear? !!! And about the possession of logic, aren't we trying to take on ourselves a lot? Although I noticed that here, through the monitor screens, there are many "heroes".
  32. heruv1me
    heruv1me 10 May 2012 14: 07
    +6
    The answer was given earlier, for the "state" heroes were more profitable, witnesses were out of place.
    I can’t say what I would do in Putin’s place, but the applicant was made by him, where there are maybe two times, the Americans completely feel impunity. The money that they received in exchange was stolen, disgusting at heart, but there seems to be no war (explicit). What's better? Where are the guarantees that we will not be sold under the old scheme again? What is the whole army for? Why so much police? Why can not I go out and speak out without being fired from work? When will we stop being cattle?
  33. Oleg14774
    Oleg14774 10 May 2012 14: 12
    +2
    Would you rather have nuclear war ?! For Russia, it would be a collapse. Putin acted very visionary and rationally. Sorry for the divers, they will not be returned. The British and Amers could launch nuclear missiles. These officers and sailors saved the world by their doom. Thank you for the article, there is a French film, the old "submarine in troubled waters" Many have seen it, there is nothing new in the article.

    Would you rather have nuclear war ?! For Russia, it would be a collapse. Putin acted very visionary and rationally. Sorry for the divers, they will not be returned. The British and Amers could launch nuclear missiles. These officers and sailors saved the world by their doom. Thank you for the article, there is a French film, the old "submarine in troubled waters" Many have seen it, there is nothing new in the article.

    Would you rather have nuclear war ?! For Russia, it would be a collapse. Putin acted very visionary and rationally. Sorry for the divers, they will not be returned. The British and Amers could launch nuclear missiles. These officers and sailors saved the world by their doom. Thank you for the article, there is a French film, the old "submarine in troubled waters" Many have seen it, there is nothing new in the article.
    1. PARROT
      PARROT 10 May 2012 14: 17
      0
      What makes you think that the point of view of a Frenchman who has almost no evidence is 100% true to talk about why the sailors and officers died?
      1. Jabara
        Jabara 11 May 2012 08: 51
        +1
        Quote: PARROT
        What makes you think that the point of view of a Frenchman who has almost no evidence is 100% true,

        Because, this version is very convenient for the perception of an external enemy.
        And this French director, well, could not have access to even secret documents in order to remove this nonsense.
  34. bremest
    bremest 10 May 2012 14: 33
    +1
    I think that it is clear to everyone that the mechanism for the formation of the entrance hole, which we see in the photo, could have been formed only from the external influence of the torpedo. If someone wants to object, then I ask you to give a reasonable explanation for the formation of this hole. I saw a lot of different holes and entrance and exit and in the human body and in objects, etc. For me, as a retired criminalist, everything is very clear here. The question is the following. Whose torpedo is this? What preceded the torpedo attack? Collision of Kursk and an unidentified submarine, or did our surface ships hit their submarine during torpedo firing? I find Putin's behavior very strange. In any case, the investigation cannot be considered complete. It is necessary to fully disclose the reasons for this emergency, perhaps the commander of the US nuclear submarine went crazy or scared and for some reason torpedoed the Kursk nuclear submarine. We must seek the truth. This is our duty! And all these pseudo-heroes Ustinovs, Makarovs will disappear into oblivion, and we will always remember the dead sailors, warrant officers and officers of the Kursk nuclear submarine!
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 14: 57
      +4
      You should at least read the comments. It is clear to the majority that such a hole cannot be a hole from the entrance of a torpedo there. First, modern torpedoes do not burst into the hull anywhere, but explode not far from the ship's propellers, following their noise. Secondly, the solid case was not punched in that place. By the way, if a solid hull had been punched, the hole would have been ripped apart much more. This hole could have appeared only after the explosion. Either during the cutting off of the first compartment, or at the time when the submarine was dragging along the bottom (about 30 meters it plowed by inertia) from its own horizontal rudder, which came off. In addition, you should remember about the bottom topography, which is not a runway, with perfect coverage. It is easy to break through a light body. Especially considering that the boat had a roll after the explosion to the starboard side, then to the left, shook it. Do not compare the human body, bullet inlets and the lightweight body of a nuclear submarine and the impact of various objects (including torpedoes) on it. Surface ships were not firing at that moment. In addition, do not breed stupid rumors - our ships were shooting with practical ammunition, i.e. educational. Such a torpedo cannot do damage when hit. A training torpedo in the warhead is filled with water, as the torpedo moves out of it with compressed air, water is forced out, and the on-board computer records data on its progress. Then she is caught by a special boat. This is me in order to once and for all stop talk about the possible hit of "at least something" from "Peter the Great"
      1. bremest
        bremest 10 May 2012 18: 03
        0
        I respect your point of view, I agree that this could not be a torpedo of our surface ships. But this is only a version. The investigator is then a professional, when he puts forward many versions, and during the investigation insolvent disappears and, on the contrary, remains supported by evidence.
        Дexertion and proof This is the section that all lawyers study at the institute. There is direct, but there is indirect evidence.
        Direct evidence of external impact is the hole itself. Its smooth round shape and a depression inward. The main thing is to determine the mechanism of hole formation. Here we need comprehensive chemical, physical and technical expertise.
        But personally, I insist that, by all external signs, this is the result of a torpedo hitting. This is an external effect, and if there is evidence of another, I ask you to state them, and not to guess that this hole of the correct round shape could have formed as a result of friction against the ground. If this were so, then there would be traces of a different nature - horizontal tracks, with some bias, but not a round branch or traces of friction. Just in the right part and somewhat below there is a shift in the roundness of the answer. It could just be a displacement during contact with the ground or a displacement during the sawing of the bow. What indirect evidence would I pay attention to. This information is about the buoys of a foreign submarine, the SOS signal, the oil stain, the Americans' recognition that their submarines were in the area. What else is needed to conclude an attack on the Krusk submarine? Is it another matter whether the attack was planned or was it the result of a combination of circumstances? It is necessary to find out the causes and conditions that contributed to this emergency. This must be done openly, just as the crash of TU-154 with the Polish delegation was investigated. This is important for the future of the country, and most importantly, that this does not happen again.
        1. Delta
          Delta 10 May 2012 18: 24
          +5
          the signals were not recognized as SOS signals and it was subsequently established that acoustics recorded the impacts of the anchor chains on the anchor-clus, classifying them as a morse. Recognized that the submarines were in the area. And what of that? this is a common practice. Is this evidence of anything? oil stain? I have not seen this in the official chronicle of events. If there was, did someone take his samples?

          in peaceful life warships NEVER
          DO NOT shoot at each other - under no circumstances. If an American or Soviet ship shoots at another, then at
          he will probably also receive an answer of no less weighty shot, and perhaps with a nuclear warhead - in such situations, there’s no time to understand what they shoot! But after receiving a message that there was a nuclear explosion - the opposite side has the right
          suggest that the enemy has already launched a preventive nuclear war, and in response can begin to launch his entire nuclear arsenal
          countries that will cause unlimited thermonuclear war. And so the result of a single unforeseen
          shots can become the complete destruction of human life on the whole Earth. Now think: is there one single
          ship (let me remind you that the Americans have only 120 nuclear submarines), so: is there one boat
          life of all mankind?

          it should be clear to any captain of a foreign submarine that the displacement of the Kursk is much greater than that of his own
          submarines, and the survivability of the Russian ship is unprecedented, so shooting at it with just one torpedo is just stupid, you have to
          at least from all four torpedo tubes. But even this would not guarantee the destruction of K-141, it could well remain
          afloat. But in this case, after the return of the Kursk to the base, traces of foreign torpedo hits and fragments of foreign metal
          they would have synthesized such a grandiose world scandal, which could easily develop into a third world war! Well really
          are American sailors so stupid not to understand this? It is very characteristic that Russian admirals from the very beginning
          the tragedy with "Kursk" wanted to shift the blame from a sore head to a healthy one: that is, instead of a thorough investigation of internal
          the reasons for his death, for a very long time engaged in the exaggeration of the version of the impact of a foreign submarine. But for this huge
          for a period of time they still have not provided any even the smallest facts of the operation of a foreign submarine: nor its fragments
          torpedoes, no traces on the Kursk's hull - in which case microparticles of foreign metal should have remained
          submarines or pieces of its hull. Yes, it is very difficult to find the traces of a black cat in a dark room, especially if she is not there. However
          This does not bother Russian admirals at all.
  35. radikdan79
    radikdan79 10 May 2012 14: 39
    0
    author for the article +
    but the whole truth, I'm afraid we will never know. somehow it’s not customary for us to talk about problems in the army. the only pity for the submariners. eternal memory to them
  36. Nechai
    Nechai 10 May 2012 14: 44
    +6
    Quote: shipbuilder
    Why did the Americans start to fuss?

    Quote: Aleksey67
    and ours were supposed to provide protection for the test area.

    Quote: viktorrymar
    It turns out that the American boat torpedoed ours, and then it began to fall apart: threw buoys, oil stains, dropped the guard from the conning tower))) - some strange torpedo attack, do not you think?

    So there were at least TWO nuclear submarines of sworn friends there. Why so much attention? In addition to the resumption of the exercises of the Russian Navy, the testing of the latest anti-torpedo defense systems was also carried out. The Chinese were not just dragged for a ride. "Course" and covered with its body the most interesting from the intrusive attention of not invited guests. And they really want to. It’s impossible, they don’t let the Russians see it, but I want to .... And away we go.
    Quote: Delta
    This suggests that when equipping the plates that regenerate oxygen, a fire occurred, which was not possible to extinguish (these plates are not quenched by water or sand, because they themselves produce oxygen). The fire burned out the last oxygen, everyone died from suffocation, and not from drowning (these are the results of forensic examination).

    The cassettes were located on the lower deck of the compartment. When the lower hatch of the emergency airlock was opened, to release the first submariner. Water gushed into the compartment, because the top hatch and the chamber itself had a deformation crack. Water hitting the regkasets - oxygen release - potassium and sodium superoxide + ash two O, rapid release of oxygen, heating and ignition. Volumetric instant fireman. (Take the plastic case of the additional regatron from the IP-5, throw out the rubber standard sealed gasket. Replace it with the old Soviet penny. Throw a little water into the case and twist it quickly. Direct your heel anywhere, just not at people. . Find the resulting from a nickle THINKING,)
    Quote: Kars
    Now imagine the heat capacity of the surrounding sea water and the steel side of the torpedoed object. The moment of the rebound upon impact is how long the contact will take.

    Anrey, what is the heat capacity? The processes are very dynamic !!! The infa passed that on this torpedo they put a disk from a depleted hurricane. Here he then accelerates and punches. They are all given rest by our "Tsar Head" - on the opposite, from being hit by a torpedo, winged side, or the bottom of a medium-tonnage ship will make a hole up to 12 sq. M ....
  37. Rus_87
    Rus_87 10 May 2012 14: 55
    +1
    I read about all sorts of versions of the Kursk's death, about this hole on the starboard side, torpedo-torpedo, but the fact is obvious, the hole was made clearly from the outside ... Therefore, the version about the explosion of its own torpedo clearly does not stand up to criticism ... Own torpedo can and really exploded, but only after the Kursk got into what left behind such a hole ...
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 15: 12
      +2
      you at least get acquainted with the project of the boat. The hole is already in the area of ​​the second compartment. How did "IT" get to the torpedoes in the first one ??
      1. Vadim555
        Vadim555 10 May 2012 18: 23
        +3
        Quote: Delta
        you at least get acquainted with the project of the boat. The hole is already in the area of ​​the second compartment. How did "IT" get to the torpedoes in the first one ??

        Good afternoon.
        I decide to express a couple of things.
        who says that there was one torpedo? Perhaps the photo shows a hole from the second torpedo.
        As far as I know, MK48 has an annular cumulative "nozzle", so the hole looks like it was from it (I read it, but did not save it).
        Is it because the nose was cut off ???
        Talk about the remaining ammunition is considered frivolous.
        Rescuers could not dock due to the fact that the light hull was kind of "swollen" and the transom of the emergency hatch turned out to be deeper than the light hull, and had to protrude 10-15mm.
        1. Delta
          Delta 10 May 2012 18: 34
          +1
          even if there were ten torpedoes, then where does the entry into the bow of the submarine and the destruction there? where did the first (in your opinion first) torpedo hit? in the stern area rushed? why is the feed intact in this case?

          Torpedoes do not have cumulative nozzles, this is not an anti-tank shell (how do you get such information?) This torpedo explodes near the ship. The effect of the explosion increases.

          The nose is cut off ... here no one has an answer. But the torpedoes of the bow compartment have been studied, and the torpedo tubes too. So there really was no need to lift what was left of the first compartment.

          Talk about the remaining ammunition, why do you consider it frivolous? Have you ever heard of an artillery bombing explosion, in which then they still find unexploded ordnance for a long time?

          Why would a light body be "blown up" ??? again, where does the information come from?
          1. Vadim555
            Vadim555 10 May 2012 21: 04
            +2
            Quote: Delta
            Why would a light body be "blown up" ??? again, where does the information come from?

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFO7eylSBzw&feature=related
            For 15min30sec

            Quote: Delta
            The nose is cut off ... here no one has an answer. But the torpedoes of the bow compartment have been studied, and the torpedo tubes too. So there really was no need to lift what was left of the first compartment.

            Here I am about the same thing. Cut off what for? Maybe there is also a "round" hole on the bow, or maybe the bend (break) of the hull inward.

            Quote: Delta
            Torpedoes do not have cumulative nozzles, this is not an anti-tank shell (how do you get such information?) This torpedo explodes near the ship. The effect of the explosion increases.

            In this film, there is also a conversation about this.
            1. Delta
              Delta 10 May 2012 21: 37
              +4
              yes there was nothing to see there - such destruction is great. It was impossible to see the holes there. As one of the divers said later: we’re going through the hull and suddenly, instead of the first compartment, an abyss ...

              According to shipbuilders, it was necessary to cut off the first compartment precisely because of its destruction. Like, when lifting, it could collapse completely and thereby cause the unbalance of the lifting system and lead to the destruction of the entire body
              1. Vadim555
                Vadim555 10 May 2012 22: 01
                +1
                Quote: Delta
                According to shipbuilders, it was necessary to cut off the first compartment precisely because of its destruction. Like, when lifting, it could collapse completely and thereby cause the unbalance of the lifting system and lead to the destruction of the entire body

                Thanks +
                It’s just that infa slipped in many places that only one company (which raised Kursk) agreed to lift without a bow, all the rest agreed to raise the whole and KB seemed to agree, and there again HZ.
                I personally understand that something is not clean there, but what ????
    2. alex86
      alex86 10 May 2012 20: 17
      +1
      Once again: in the photo, correlate the size of people standing 30 meters CLOSER and the size of the hole - it is at least 1,5 m, the torpedo caliber is 533 mm. A hole of this shape is easily formed when pulling out part of the casing (light body) along the normal (I do not insist on it) ... All this applies only to the origin of the hole on the starboard side of the torpedo strike at this point.
      1. Delta
        Delta 10 May 2012 21: 38
        +2
        Do you really think that someone here will ponder over the numbers and technical details? it’s easier for them to think that they torpedoed. And that's it
  38. Bob
    Bob 10 May 2012 14: 59
    +4
    In the article, the veil over the "secret" was finally lifted, but it was too late, at first the French were talking about it (2000), then the whole world, and only now we have infa passed. An attempt to keep silent about the true causes of the tragedy had a very negative consequence for the authorities, for Putin, because this is nothing more than deceiving the people, and then when and how much they deceived the people, much has been said about this. The fact that the Kursk was valued at $ 10 billion is also for the Russians, and above all for the families of these sailors and for the Navy and the Armed Forces in general - this is a Jewish approach, according to which everything is bought and sold, and this also did not raise the authority of the authorities , but only once again demonstrated what kind of power it is, what its motives are and how you can negotiate with it, and even for how much.
    One good thing - managed to avoid the 3rd world once again. But this only once again speaks of the thin line between the line between peace and war, and if it goes on like this, then a catastrophic outcome is inevitable.
    Nobody will say who is right and who is to blame for the Kursk tragedy, as long as all the information is under the heading. In my opinion, the main fault lies with the Americans, because it was they who entered into combat contact with our nuclear submarine at the place of the exercises of our fleet. In a difficult relief location of the Barents Sea with zero visibility and a turbulent current, they did not take into account all the factors in tracking our boat and rammed the Kursk with their side, after which, having heard the characteristic sound from the Kursk torpedo tube, they made a combat shot at it with their Super modern torpedo MK-48. Eternal memory to sailors.
  39. igorek408
    igorek408 10 May 2012 15: 21
    0
    sadly ...
  40. uizik
    uizik 10 May 2012 15: 25
    +2
    It was like in a fog, it was not yet clear! No answer! Some questions!
  41. Nechai
    Nechai 10 May 2012 15: 26
    +2
    Quote: Rus_87
    about this hole on the starboard side, a torpedo-not torpedo, but the fact is clear, the hole was made clearly from the outside ..

    They spread information about the hole, that this supposedly the right tail of the depth rudder came off when it was broken out, he said, and bent the outer case inside. Maybe so. The torpedo could then plant a second boat in the first compartment. Mutual maneuvering took place at minimum distances.
    Quote: Bob
    In a difficult relief place in the Barents Sea with zero visibility and a turbulent current, they did not take into account all the factors in tracking our boat and rammed the Kursk with their side, after which, having heard the characteristic sound from the Kursk torpedo tube, they made a combat shot at it with their Super modern torpedo MK-48

    Yes, that's right, it seems to me. Consider also what depths! It is not for nothing that the "loaf" was driven into shallow water. The depth is less than the length of the submarine. Maybe the Amer was trying to squeeze through, dive between the bottom and the Kursk. And "Kursk" pressed him to the bottom, blocked the trajectory of movement. On the Kursk, the rudders were on the dive. Amer cracked the wheelhouse into our boat. Lay down to the bottom. His brother, agl not agl, what's the difference, planted the Russian in the side. And the fact that the Kursk opened the outer covers of the TA speaks for the fact that ours tried to influence them, morally pressure. But I found a scythe on a stone ...
    And the Norwegian divers took that submariner from the stern of the emergency airlock. He could not open the outer cover. Her jammed deformation. How many norgs were tormented with it, ate ate pulled off hydraulics. And just then they issued a verdict that the compartment was flooded. The operation was stopped until next summer. All material things. Docks sawed off. Left at the bottom, and then ironed outbacks.
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 15: 33
      0
      can I link to information about the sailor in the "lock chamber"? and at the same time about "ironing out the depths of the bottom"
  42. Castor oil
    Castor oil 10 May 2012 15: 26
    +3
    My friend, naval officer, lieutenant captain, submariner, immediately drew my attention to the "scratch" on the Kursk hull going through the coaming platform in front of the wheelhouse, and, accordingly, did not allow the rescue bell to dock hermetically. He noticed that only titanium tail rudders of obviously another submarine could leave such furrows. I remembered his words, then, when the press showed a space image of an American boat with a damaged bow, docked in one of the Norwegian fiords.
    Everything was done to "confuse our own people and confuse the rest", but the families of the dead sailors, I am sure, need to know the truth, otherwise they "poured" so much on the dead ...
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 15: 35
      +2
      Do you think the tail rudders and the damaged nose of a foreign submarine do not seem a problem?)))) By the way, your submarine captain did not indicate which fleets of the world make submarine hulls from titanium?
      1. Castor oil
        Castor oil 10 May 2012 16: 26
        +2
        Quote: Delta
        Do you think the tail rudders and the damaged nose of a foreign submarine do not seem a problem?)))) By the way, your submarine captain did not indicate which fleets of the world make submarine hulls from titanium?

        In a collision in the opposite courses, the nose of the enemy boat was obviously slightly higher, therefore, after the collision, its nose, on the axis of the applicate, rose (and the nose of Kursk sank in a much lower amplitude), and, accordingly, the tail of the boat dropped. And since there was a further inertial longitudinal movement of the boats along the abscissa axis and to a lesser extent along the ordinate axis, the tail rudders of the alien boat made contact with the space in front of the Kursk boat cabin.
        Regarding the second - something needs to be done with dyslexia - there was no talk about a light or durable body, but only about steering wheels winked
        Although if for general development - titanium alloys in the case were used in the construction of the 661 project (K-222), the 685 project (Komsomolets), the 701 project. Search for help, and show-offs to the dump laughing
        1. Delta
          Delta 10 May 2012 16: 40
          +2
          You have a show-off, but I would like to hear about titanium boats from foreign fleets. Or "Kursk" rammed "Komsomolets"? or K-222 transferred for disposal?

          About the steering wheel it was, yeah. And about the crumpled nose of a foreign boat. So where is the truth?)))))) And crushed his nose and walked with the helms. Wah, virtuoso
          1. Castor oil
            Castor oil 10 May 2012 16: 44
            +2
            We drove through bully
            __________________________
            1. Delta
              Delta 10 May 2012 16: 56
              -2
              very sorry. Well, yes, in the language of n ... t - do not toss the bags. This is to say that the one who mentions about the show would take care of a bunch of his speech and the basis for statements.
  43. Pimply
    Pimply 10 May 2012 15: 28
    +1
    They love conspiracy theories on this site - they are the scribe.
    1. Aleksey67
      Aleksey67 10 May 2012 15: 35
      +4
      Quote: Pimply
      They love conspiracy theories on this site - they are the scribe.

      THIS IS PASSING IN ALL SITES, we find out the truth or not, but Russia did not present any complaints to anyone
  44. Rus_87
    Rus_87 10 May 2012 15: 45
    +5
    The attempt to silence the true causes of the tragedy had a very negative consequence for the authorities, for Putin, because it is nothing more than a deception of the people, and then when and how much the people deceived, much has been said about this

    How easy it is to immediately attack Putin and accuse him of all mortal sins ... Personally, it seems to me that the death of submariners is on the conscience of E.B.N. Yes, yes, exactly him, because it was he and his pack of liberal democratizers who brought the great country and the navy in particular, to the handle, to such a handle that they simply could not change the rubber seal on the rescue apparatus, as a result of which he could not dock with "Kursk", and much more that our generation will be ashamed of for a long time in front of our children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren! Putin raised that Russia, Russia, which lay at the feet of the West, begging for loans with a trembling hand, to a normal "human" level! Yes, and now not everything is so rosy and rosy, but again I repeat, compare that Russia of the 90-2000s. from the modern, really, during those years of dancing to the Western tune, you Russians have completely atrophied a feeling of gratitude and respect for people, and specifically for a person who has done so much for this Russia?
    And the fact that we mere "mortals" are not told this very longed-for truth about the Kursk is understandable, these are military matters. And as for the military, never, under any system, under any president, they will not disclose everything to the end to a common man in the street ... Such is our philistine fate, we are told what the authorities want, and then, believe or not believe , build your own guesses and assumptions, this is the will of everyone ...

    Delta,
    And how did "ONO" get to half of the compartments, where everyone died instantly? In your opinion, if "IT" got into the 2nd compartment, then only the second compartment should have suffered, so what do you think is it? Then, in order to sink the boat, according to your logic, you need to plant this "IT" in each compartment?
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 15: 52
      +1
      if the torpedo hit the second compartment, the explosion would have come from it, from the second to the third and first. However, the explosion came from the first compartment. The bulkhead of the first compartment was sealed by an explosion to the bulkhead of the second compartment. Now, even if you do not believe people who are literate in this regard, turn on logic. To sink such a boat, it is necessary to flood at least two compartments, which happened through the destroyed torpedo tube of the first compartment and the ventilation ducts between the first and the second. during torpedo firing (for which the Kursk was preparing) ventilation (as recommended by the designers) must be unlocked
  45. ward
    ward 10 May 2012 16: 26
    +2
    The human factor ... they didn’t understand it right ... they didn’t do it right here ... ALL submariners believe that Kursk torpedoed ... there are old showdowns from the Mediterranean Sea ... but interestingly, the commander and officers of Memphis died as a result of the accident case ... it seems that this was one of the conditions of compensation ... the only thing that cannot be forgiven ... if you had fitted a crane and just stupidly raised the stern ... some people would have been saved ... but then the attack could not be hidden ... always simple soldiers extreme ... eternal memory to them ... article plus ..
    1. Sleptsoff
      Sleptsoff 10 May 2012 16: 38
      +2
      If the officers of Memphis were "removed" then the amers themselves did it and only so that they would not blurt out something by provoking an international scandal, and not as some kind of compensation.
    2. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 16: 43
      +4
      Oh my god .... are you drunk? which crane could lift a submarine with a displacement of 24 tons ??? in addition, which absorbed hundreds of tons of water in addition. Is it just technical illiteracy or something else? Where did the information about the death of Memphis officers come from?
      1. ward
        ward 11 May 2012 13: 47
        0
        You drink it in Kiev without drying up ... and we have the Internet in Russia ... there you can see the crane capacity ... and the length of the boat ... and depth ... and the travel time of this crane ... would be a desire ... but you do not have time for you kvass ... minus ...
        1. Delta
          Delta 11 May 2012 14: 16
          +3
          very qualified answer. Especially about the "leaven". Again, from the lack of intelligible argumentation, the transition to cities, nationalities ... everything is clear. Although no, not everything is clear - you can understand where the information comes from about the officers?
    3. Num lock U.A.
      Num lock U.A. 10 May 2012 17: 03
      +3
      Quote: ward
      but interestingly, the commander and officers of Memphis died in an accident ..

      But can you give me more details?
    4. bremest
      bremest 10 May 2012 18: 21
      +2
      Regarding the death of the commander and officers of Memphis ........ In order for the witnesses to be silent forever, they must be killed. This is the principle of the CIA. The last case of the elimination of important witnesses is the sweep of the special forces, who allegedly stormed the shelter of Osama Bin Laden, or killed him, but there is no corpse ...... In general, they loaded the entire special forces into a helicopter and shot down. All ends in the water ......
      1. Delta
        Delta 10 May 2012 18: 27
        +1
        I am of course forgiveness ... but where did you get information about the death of Memphis officers?
      2. veryalone
        veryalone 11 May 2012 16: 59
        +2
        Not a single officer or even a sailor from the Memphis crew was killed and does not even have a scratch. What are you talking about, my dear?
  46. Sarus
    Sarus 10 May 2012 16: 38
    0
    I read the comments ...
    I agree in many ways ..
    But if all the same, the Yankees torpedoed Kursk or someone else and the Government of the Russian Federation wrote off debts because of this, then I am ashamed of my country ...
    Sorry guys ...
  47. pinachet
    pinachet 10 May 2012 16: 45
    +2
    in the 2000s, I was served with a comrade who was doing military service on one of the ships that was on those exercises. so I bought it for that and sell it .., his words on this case ..-
    there a buoy of not our color surfaced (something yellow with green) .. almost the entire crew saw him and a logbook was recorded, then people flew in a helicopter and weighed out the magazine and forbade chatting.
  48. Rus_87
    Rus_87 10 May 2012 16: 53
    +3
    Speaking of the fact that this is the very hole on the starboard side, this plumage of the depth rudder came off when it was broken out, he supposedly bent the outer case inside. Take a closer look, do not you think that the rudders of depth are slightly higher than this notorious hole, and closer to the nose of the rudders than a hole ...
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 17: 00
      +2
      let's do it differently. Tell me bluntly - do you want the truth to be that the Americans drowned it? if so, then why argue about something? all technical issues have already been discussed, but you continue further ...
  49. vadimN
    vadimN 10 May 2012 17: 10
    +15
    The dregs are continuous ... and from all sides ... No version is plausible. They will never tell us the truth ... But, nevertheless, I recommend turning to the opinion of a professional underwater business - Admiral Ryazantsev. His rather detailed article on the reasons for the death of the Kursk can be read in full here. As a former North Sea officer, I tend to stick to his version:

    http://avtonomka.org/vospominaniya/vitse-admiral-ryazantsev-valeriy-dmitrievich.
    html

    Regarding the "participation" of amers in this whole story, we can say the following:
    1. At all times they tracked our landfills. Here the claim is not to them, but to the heap of our guard ships, which were supposed to protect the firing range for the period of firing from such guests. But, judging by the materials of the investigation, our acoustics did not even hear American boats ... This is a shame ...! They learned about their presence from journalists ...
    2. There is enough mischief in the American fleet, although, I affirm authoritatively, no submarine commander, neither ours nor a foreign one, will think of an arbitrary bullet by combat torpedoes within the boundaries of a foreign training ground. Amers are a regulated people, and submariners are many times. Without instructions and commands from above, they won't sit down (sorry for being rude). It is unlikely that any commander really wanted to become the "ancestor" of the third world ...

    In the end: Guys, read Ryazantsev's material. You must first defeat the "enemy" within yourself, and then look for the outside ...

    PS I do not pretend to 100% of reality ... Everything is muddy ... Maybe our children will find out the truth .. in years through 50 ...
    1. Delta
      Delta 10 May 2012 17: 15
      +1
      +100. Although I do not agree with Ryazantsev, he wrote truthfully and at least technically competent. Anyone who is not too lazy to read his research will become much clear and will not need to make their own illiterate conclusions
    2. bremest
      bremest 10 May 2012 18: 29
      -3
      What do you think about such a factor as the instinct of self-preservation? It's instinct. This is innate and no provision of the charter can cancel it. But if the commander of the US nuclear submarine heard the noise of our nuclear submarine's torpedo tube and, first of all, frightened for his life, acting in the grip of the instinct of self-preservation, gave the command to torpedo the nuclear submarine "Kursk" ...... Could it be so? This is a human factor. This is the version.
      1. vadimN
        vadimN 10 May 2012 18: 35
        +5
        Version zero. And that's why! American nuclear submarines were in the firing area with a specific task - to control the course of these very firing. They knew that the Kursk would fire and the noise of a loaded TA was expected and could not lead to such tragic consequences. The American commander must be a complete alarmist-hysterical in order to react to the expected actions of the Russian submarine. Everything, of course, is possible, but I want to believe that neither the amers, nor we have psycho commanders ...
        1. Delta
          Delta 10 May 2012 18: 44
          +1
          To this I would like to add that many adherents of the version of torpedoing paint a situation when an American, hearing the opening of the lids of the Kursk torpedo tubes, mistook it for hostile actions and fired preventive shots. At the same time, no one thinks about the fact that the American nuclear submarines were in the area (I emphasize - in the area, and not in the immediate vicinity) of the SF exercises. And it was clear to everyone that there would be training torpedoes. Moreover, purely theoretically, our ships could also fire combat torpedoes. So what??? who would think of attacking a Russian ship for this in its waters ??? for what???
          1. shipbuilder
            shipbuilder 10 May 2012 19: 14
            +2
            Somehow, it seems on this site, was the story of our pilot about flying to the USA for demonstrations. How they kicked their ass in a training battle and how on the way back they received low-quality fuel, that they nearly crashed in the desert. This is to say that an American can shoot, especially considering the political situation. We were not considered then at all, they considered us practically already a colony without the ability to answer (I mean political will too). Although this option is unlikely.
        2. bremest
          bremest 10 May 2012 18: 45
          +3
          This is just a version, and even if it’s zero ..... The most important thing is that the criminal case is classified and we are not able to study its materials and draw conclusions ......
  50. Odinplys
    Odinplys 10 May 2012 18: 28
    +3
    It’s clear that one article boils down to the fact that Putin is bad ... he didn’t make it public ... and that means he didn’t strike back ... which means he’s a type of enemy ... And that’s clear, the enemies are not asleep ... anniversary in August ... article today ...
    Huge minus article ... for its provocative nature ... aimed at shattering the situation in Russia ...
    1. vadimN
      vadimN 10 May 2012 18: 37
      +6
      The claims to Putin are not that "he did not publish and did not retaliate." Thank God I didn't. The complaint is that he ineptly fed us with lies and mediocrely didn’t save the guys from the Kursk!