Military Review

Top-5 of the worst Russian pistols according to Charlie Gao

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In the process of wandering around the sites near the weapon, I stumbled upon a relatively fresh, regular “top” from American expert Charlie Gao. Visitors to the "Military Review" are already familiar with citizen Gao to translate the article "Five species weapons, dangerous for the shooters themselves. " This time, the expert prepared another selection of weapons under the name "5 worst Russian pistols on the planet."


It is incredibly pleasant that Charlie Gao considers the domestic types of weapons so good that, in his opinion, they can be used somewhere outside of our globe. Despite this, it would not be superfluous to see what the American expert considered to be a bad weapon and whether it was terrible, as described in the article.

We must start, probably, from the fact that at the beginning of his list of the worst pistols in Russia, the expert responds in a positive way about the Makarov pistol and the TT. Flattering, but this will not confuse us, we will try to preserve impartiality and if something really from the proposed citizen Gao is bad, then it will remain so.

Gun OTs-23 "Dart"

In the first place, an American expert has a pistol, not the most famous one in the wide circles, but recognizable by those who are interested in firearms. This gun was developed in the middle of the 90-s by designers Stechkin, Balzer and Zinchenko. The development was initiated by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Russia to replace the Stechkin automatic pistol, which is still in service.

Top-5 of the worst Russian pistols according to Charlie Gao


Charlie Gao marks this weapon as stillborn in several ways at once. First, the expert talks about the weight of about a kilogram (in fact, 850 grams without cartridges). Secondly, the expert is confused by the ineffective 5,45х18 ammunition, however, a high punching effect is noted in comparison with the 9x18PM, as well as the possibility of automatic firing weapons with three cartridges cut-off.

It is necessary to begin, probably, with ergonomics, convenience of carrying and application. Yes, by modern standards the gun is heavy, and there are no designer delights in it. But in it there is the usual location of the fuse switch and quite a convenient slider to remove the store at the base of the safety bracket. The gun is not small - its length is equal to 195 millimeters, but after all, Stechkin's gun, the replacement for which it was planned to make OTs-23, is also far from being a kid. The beauty in weapons is, of course, good, but reliability still comes first, but there were no complaints about the OTs-23 pistol.



It should also be borne in mind that the weapon was created for specific requirements, but the fact that the requirements for the pistol were contrary to what they wanted to get in the end was not at all the designers' fault. As a result, we have a reliable, albeit a large and relatively heavy pistol with the 24 magazine capacity of the 5,45x18 cartridge, and the weapon also knows how to fire in three rounds in short bursts.

Is this a bad weapon? According to Charlie Gao, yes, but personally it seems to me that it is not the weapon in this case that is bad, but the ammunition that is used in it. Not even that. The ammunition is not bad, but in this case it was used in the wrong niche.

Indeed, the cartridge 5,45х18 for military weapons is of little use. Like it or not, but the kinetic energy of the bullet is too small for at least some significant stopping effect when hit. If we compare it with foreign models, for example, with ammunition for the same Five-Seven pistol, it becomes obvious that domestic ammunition loses in all respects. The assumption that the bullet will behave somehow differently when it enters soft tissues in comparison with full-fledged ammunition is clearly not justified, and even three consecutive hits from the OC-23 are unlikely to be compared in effectiveness with one hit 9х19. For the same reason, even small-sized pistols for this cartridge, for example, the well-known PSM, are rather a weapon for complacency, rather than for self-defense.

Despite the fact that in the process of working on this munition by Antonina Dmitrievna Denisova, a lot of work was carried out, during which it was concluded that due to its length and low stabilization, a small-caliber bullet can cause significant damage when hit, which in some cases are comparable to 9x18PM bullets, no one undertakes to guarantee such an effect. In other words, the assured defeat of the enemy is rather the will of chance than a real systematic phenomenon with the given ammunition. In the case of the use of this munition in the OZ-23 pistol, this probability increases when firing with a cut-off of three cartridges, but in this case it is not a guaranteed defeat. It is worth noting that many, even the most common and generally recognized effective cartridges can not guarantee a confident defeat of the enemy, just look at the statistics of fatal bullet wounds. A man is sometimes a very tenacious creature. But this is all, of course, excuses that justify the cartridge 5,45х18.



To be objective, at the moment this cartridge would fit ideally for the initial stage of shooting training, as ammunition for award weapons, and so on, but not for service weapons, and even more so for combat weapons.

But let us return to the opinion of Charlie Gao that the OZ-23 pistol is one of the worst types of short-barreled weapons developed in Russia. As already mentioned above, the gun itself is not at all to blame for the fact that it was designed around an unsuccessful cartridge. The design of the weapon is not only reliable, but also interesting, since it has very unusual solutions. For example, the automatic pistol is built according to the scheme with a free gate, but few know that when you roll back, after removing the spent case, the braking of the shutter is achieved not only by the rigidity of the return spring, but also by the mass of the barrel, starts moving with her. This provides a very soft return when shooting, which is especially important given the fact that the rate of fire when shooting bursts reaches 1800 rounds per minute, which even with 5,45 x18 can be quite noticeable. This solution also allows you to evenly distribute the load on the frame of the gun, which affects the overall reliability and durability of the weapon, since at the extreme points the slide group does not have its maximum speed of movement.

In my opinion, the Dart pistol is an excellent weapon in terms of the combination of reliability and technical solutions in the design. To compare it with the products of foreign manufacturers for more powerful ammunition, but with a small caliber is somehow incorrect. Perhaps, I argue in the wrong direction, but, in my opinion, a bad pistol is one that does not shoot or fall apart when fired. In this case, the gun OTs-23 may not be suitable for combat or service use, but it is excellent for entertaining shooting, and it clearly cannot be the worst weapon developed by Soviet gunsmiths.

Revolver M1895 Nagant

In the second place in the list of the worst domestic versions of short-barreled weapons, the Belgian revolver of the Nagan brothers unexpectedly stands. How this weapon got on the list of Charlie Gao is generally incomprehensible. The expert himself acknowledges that the weapon at the time of its development was very good, and the main disadvantage of this revolver Gao puts the fact that this revolver was in service with the Soviet Army until the 30-s. By this logic, we can safely say that the American Colt M1911 is generally a stillborn weapon (in no way insulting the memory of John Moses Browning, but to the absurdity of Charlie Gao’s conclusions).



Yes, indeed, the M1895 revolver had a number of drawbacks, among which are the heavy descent referred to by the expert and the possibility of reloading with only one cartridge. But, for a second, we are talking about weapons that took part in two world wars, weapons that were written история, and it unexpectedly stands in second place with the worst pistols produced in Russia.



Do not forget also that this revolver has one peculiarity that allowed the Soviet Army for some time to have the “quiet” firearm existing at that time. As you know, when cocked the drum of the M1895 revolver moves forward, rolling on the barrel of the weapon, which, together with the design of the cartridge, avoids the breakthrough of powder gases between the barrel and the drum chamber. The brothers Mitya developed a silent-noise device for the M1895 revolver, which made the weapon as quiet as possible when fired, since apart from the sound of the smooth flow of gunpowder gases from PBS and the impact of the trigger, nothing was heard anymore. The British attended to the creation of such weapons only in the middle of the Second World War, the Soviet Union already had them, and it was much more effective in comparison with the first versions of British development.



In general, the line of thought of the American weapon expert with regard to the M1895 revolver of the Nagant brothers is completely incomprehensible to me.

P-96 Pistol

In third place in the top of the worst domestic pistols Charlie Gao has a pistol П-96 and its derivatives. Given the fact that this weapon has become widespread in its service version chambered for 9х17, and with it a lot of negative reviews, the statement of the American expert may seem quite justified, but let's understand.



This gun is built according to the scheme of automation with a short stroke of the weapon, while the barrel bore is locked when turning the barrel 30 degrees. The same pattern of operation of the automatics is also preserved in weapons with relatively weak ammunition for 9x18 and 9x17 cartridges, which, if the weapon is contaminated and low-quality cartridges are used, can lead to delays when firing. No matter how much you want to justify this gun, but the preservation of a more complex automation system, where the free shutter would do well, is, if not a minus, then at least strange, especially since it affects the reliability of the weapon. However, with proper care and use of normal cartridges such problems are not observed.

The low resource of weapons was found in the version of the pistol chambered for 9x19. One cannot say in this case the words of Elena Malysheva that this is the norm, but one does not need to be a designer to understand that such a system of locking the barrel bore special demands, both on the quality of materials and on the quality of their processing. In addition, a similar bore locking system is susceptible to contamination when using weapons in dusty conditions. However, this does not mean that the use of automation with a short stroke of the barrel, when locked by turning the barrel, is unacceptable in the design of pistols. There are many examples of quite successful implementation of such structures, in which one way or another it was possible to minimize all the negative aspects, while retaining the advantages of movement of the trunk without its distortions. Of domestic pistols, such an example could be the GSH-18, which, with some stretch, can even be called the work on the mistakes in the pistol П-96.



The second negative point in the P-96 pistol is a feature of its trigger design. Unfortunately, it was not possible to get acquainted with this weapon personally, even in the service version, but, as it becomes clear from the description of the design of the pistol, its trigger mechanism is somewhat specific. The specificity lies in the fact that the sear does not allow the shutter casing to fully retract to its extreme point about 10 millimeters.

What does this mean for the owner of such a gun? This means that the jammed cartridge case or cartridge in the chamber can be removed by the usual movement of the cover-bolt, but the drummer can be lifted only when the trigger is pressed, which lowers the sear, giving the cover-shutter an opportunity to fully retreat. That is, in order to send a cartridge into the chamber, you need to pull the trigger, pull back the bolt-casing, release the bolt-casing, and the drummer will be on a preliminary platoon, if he didn’t stand on it, then release the trigger and only after that you can make a shot. If you pull the shutter casing with the trigger released, applying force, you can break the sear.



Such a feature of the design of the trigger mechanism is clearly not something good for a gun. Of course, you can get used to it, but, in this case, the actions performed almost automatically with another weapon will need to be constantly monitored and thought ten times before doing something. That, in principle, is recommended with other pistols that are easier to handle.

If you put it all together, it’s really not the most rosy picture. Weapons whimsically to the cartridge and maintenance, requires maximum attention when carrying out even the simplest manipulations. In addition to the fact that only the service version of the pistol was distributed, that is, the P-96С pistol is distributed where responsibility and constant care for the weapon is a phenomenon that is not rare, then often absent, and as a result we get a bunch of negative reviews on this weapon.



Should a weapon be called bad only by the fact that it requires increased attention - a difficult question. Nevertheless, the possibility of an accidental shot, in the event that the shooter confused something and at the time of removing the cartridge from the chamber, pulled the trigger, this is clearly a fat "minus" of the pistol design. So if the P-96 pistol is not the worst, then obviously it cannot be recorded as a good weapon, unfortunately.

Pistol "Swift"

Another pistol on Charlie Gao’s list of the worst Russian pistols is the Strizh acquaintance of all, known in the world market as Strike One. A couple of years ago, everyone was delighted with this weapon, its descriptions and characteristics were reprinted and were accompanied by enthusiastic exclamations of a future pistol, which has no analogues in the world, with a unique automation system.



Domestic experts proudly posed with this pistol in shooting galleries, and showed leaky targets, demonstrating the high accuracy of hits from this pistol. True, there were those who already said that the Italians were trying to slip sporting weapons under the guise of combat, and the design of the pistol was not so unique and it would soon be a hundred years old. As time goes by, public opinion is changing, now "Swift" does not criticize unless it is lazy. Let's again understand what kind of weapon and why it fell into the list of the worst pistols from Russia according to Charlie Gao.

First of all, it should be noted that the gun has a really thought-out ergonomics, which, combined with a low-set barrel relative to the handle, has a positive effect on the accuracy and comfort of firing, since the weapon deviates minimally when fired from the aiming point. A significant role in the high rates of weapons when shooting is played by the fact that the barrel of the pistol moves only along its axis, without distortions. This is implemented by coupling the barrel and the housing-bolt with the liner. While the gun was in the dash, everything was fine, but just until the moment when the weapon was decided to be subjected to more serious tests in conditions other than a sterile shooting gallery.



Almost immediately, the problem of the pistol's sensitivity to pollution, from which the automation system (which, by the way, was proposed by Bergman at the beginning of the twentieth century), was denied was revealed. As it turned out, you will not go against the laws of physics, and large areas of contact of rubbing parts will not feel very good when they hit fine sand and dust.

The second problem of this weapon was its legibility in ammunition. Low-quality cartridges simply could not make the automation system work normally, since they simply did not have enough powder charge power. Hence, there were delays when firing in the form of non-extraction of spent cartridges from the chamber, some remained squeezed in the window for ejection of the spent cartridges between the chamber and the shutter casing. Slowly came the understanding that this weapon is clearly not military and not ready for domestic realities. However, this did not prevent us from continuing to make regular reports from the galleries, where the capabilities of the weapon were already demonstrated in the 100th circle.

There is an opinion that without the patronage of the officials, these weapons would have remained completely unknown in the domestic market, however, it is not our task to sort out scandals, intrigues, investigations. For this there is REN-TV, NTV and separate organs.



What conclusions can be drawn from all written above about the gun "Swift"? First of all, you need to take into account the fact that the weapon is clearly not suitable for use in the field. It requires careful maintenance, quality control of used ammunition. If to be realistic, then it is impossible to ensure all this in the army or in law enforcement bodies. The only niche where all this is possible is the civilian market. Only the owner of the weapon can provide him with a normal full-fledged care, and will not charge anything into it. Taking into account the fact that short-barreled weapons are currently available for civilians only to athletes, it can be concluded that the Swift is a sports pistol that they wanted to make fighting.

It should be noted that not only the Swift showed low resistance to pollution, Strike One also ate criticism from the foreign owners of these weapons. If you set a goal, you can find videos where this gun is compared with other models of weapons, emphasizing that the same Beretta 92 normally eats ammunition, and in Strike from these ammunition indigestion. That is, the reason is not in the quality of the production of weapons, but in its design.

Despite this, to say that the gun turned frankly bad is clearly not worth it. Given the really good performance on the accuracy of fire and ease of use, this gun can claim a place in the niche of sports weapons, where he will be provided with proper care and proper nutrition. So, as a military weapon, the Swift pistol is really not the best model, but how sporting is even quite acceptable and you can say it's not bad.

Gun Yarygin

Well, the cherry on the cake in the list of the worst Russian pistols, according to Charlie Gao, has become an unloved PJ. At once I will make a reservation that those who are finally convinced that the Yarygin pistol weapon, erroneously admitted to mass production, can skip the text to the final part, since I am going to justify this pistol. And to justify this gun is really possible and necessary if only because today most of its shortcomings have been eliminated. Despite this, there were spoons, and the sediment remained.



Many are wondering how it was possible to create weapons according to the scheme of work already worked out for decades and at the same time make the final product bad. The answer is simple, as in most similar cases: haste, savings, mass production.



The fact that the weapons were rushed to adopt was already evident from the first batch of this gun. The fact that the gun suffered from such "childish" diseases as sticking a cartridge when feeding into the chamber already says that the weapon was made, but they forgot to prepare it for mass production and a file to modify. Most often, the main reason for the same sticking of the cartridge when serving is a weapon shop. Nevertheless, the weapons were tested and even with grief in half, but they passed. So, the reasons need to be sought not so much in the design of the store or the entrance to the chamber, as in the material from which it is made. Perhaps the lack of rigidity of the same sponge store and caused such a problem. Is this a serious problem? Definitely not. Is it hard to fix it? Not. However, with such a problem, the weapon was already released and began to be used, and it is not accepted to recall the goods already sold.

The next problem was the refusals when shooting due to the under-shutting until the end, due to which the cartridges were stuck during extraction. Here you need to look at once in two directions. First, you need to look at the quality of cartridges, which recently walks as it wants. Personally, I once made a strong impression when either rust or some other dirt, which obviously should not have been there, spilled out of the cartridge case with powder. Secondly, it is also necessary to look towards the quality of production. Excessive stiffness of return springs, poor quality of processing of rubbing surfaces, all this can lead to such unpleasant results. Judging by the reviews of familiar athletes, the quality of ammunition has not yet been resolved, but the quality of the production of the weapon itself has already been significantly tightened, and the result did not take long to wait - the delays in firing disappeared when using normal cartridges.



As for the ergonomics of weapons, then there really are flaws that can not be eliminated. The pistol grip will fit far from everyone - it is too large for owners of small palms, but on the contrary, it is very convenient for people with large palm sizes. Here, as they say, you will not please everyone, but half measures in the form of slips on the back of the handle are still half measures, although this is better than nothing.

A lot of criticism was expressed against the sights of a pistol, they say, it is impossible to provide accurate fire with them. It should be borne in mind that in this case sniper shooting is not provided for, it is a combat weapon, it is necessary to impose requirements on it for speed of aiming, and not for high accuracy.



The appearance of the weapon has also been repeatedly criticized. It is difficult to argue with the fact that PJ cannot be called handsome among pistols, especially modern ones. Indeed, if I may say so, the “design” of the weapon is somewhat outdated, and would be more appropriate for a mid-twentieth-century pistol than for a modern one. The presence of sharp edges does not affect the ease of use, however, that is, that is.

I wouldn't call the PJ gun right here one of the worst. Most of the reasons for the negative attitude to this gun lies in the fact that they launched it into production, frankly raw, without preparation for mass production. It is obvious that many of the nuances that inevitably emerge in the mass production of the product were simply not taken into account. The very design of the pistol has already been tested in dozens, if not hundreds of other pistols, which means that it is fully functional and the reason lies in other trifles, which together give a negative result. However, at the moment all the flaws, except for the appearance and ergonomics, in this weapon have been eliminated, and the weapon has become quite efficient and suitable for mass distribution.



Now many are betting on Lebedev’s pistol as a weapon with which Yarygin’s pistol will be replaced. With probability in 100%, it can be predicted that a complete replacement will not occur, since it will be necessary to put the PCs, which have already been produced and operated, somewhere. So Yarygin pistol is a long time, will have to accept.

Conclusion

In the process of reading the article by Charlie Gao, I had the feeling that he had compiled his next top 5, not relying on personal opinion, but on the opinion of most visitors to sites related to firearms, and given that the M1895 revolver is on the list, The link between these sites and the world of firearms is clearly weak.



Despite the fact that any opinion, supported by arguments, has the right to life, in this case the arguments are rather weak. Most of the reasons why this or that weapon model is one of the worst are contrived. The example with the same revolver of the Nagan brothers, which was classified as unsuccessful only because it was in service with a long time and could not be replaced, is the brightest. Nevertheless, it is always interesting to see what foreign experts write about domestic weapons.

Original article by Charlie Gao:
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/5-worst-russian-handguns-the-planet-25575
Author:
Photos used:
weaponland.ru
159 comments
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  1. polpot
    polpot 16 May 2018 05: 40
    +6
    Thanks for the article very interesting review
    1. gladcu2
      gladcu2 18 May 2018 19: 14
      0
      In general, the selection of pistols according to the American opinion is correct. Unless you can agree on the gun.

      The author whitens the noticed shortcomings by citing dubious arguments. Like a modern liberal court, to justify a maniac, because in childhood he accidentally dropped a sleepy fly on the floor before his eyes. And this was reflected in his maniac autobiography.

      In general, it is strange for Russia such a variety of pistols.

      By tradition, from the USSR, there are only a few types of army pistols. And others are nonsense, since the previous ones cannot be created better.
      Well, there is no civilian market. Therefore, the motivation to do something is not.
      1. evgeny68
        evgeny68 20 May 2018 21: 04
        0
        Russia costs more than a thousand years, a thousand years of wars, so our ancestors all our history knew what and how to do, this also applies to weapons. I think the centuries-old history of Russia confirms that we fight well and make weapons well, otherwise Russia would not exist.
  2. The comment was deleted.
  3. RaptorF22
    RaptorF22 16 May 2018 05: 59
    +4
    Why this article ??? We all know very well that cops in Russia will never be allowed to purchase as rifled carbines wink
    1. Lerych
      Lerych 16 May 2018 08: 02
      +14
      In Russia, private individuals will never be allowed to buy battle tanks and aircraft. What now, do not write or read about them ?; )
      1. Alex.Kom
        Alex.Kom 16 June 2018 10: 33
        0
        "This is not a fact, Monsieur Duke ..." wink
    2. your1970
      your1970 16 May 2018 09: 07
      +14
      Quote: RaptorF22
      Why this article ??? We all know very well that cops in Russia will never be allowed to purchase as rifled carbines wink
      -ag, "the government is afraid of the armed people !!" .. well, well ..
      If the power is - POWER, then no crowds of people armed with "pestles" are not afraid of him. Proven in the 20th century repeatedly around the world.
      Until February 17, in RI there were a lot of armed people, terrorists had a cloud of demons and they killed officials / gendarmes almost daily. And at least henna ... But in February, power became too weak and guns were not needed - mandates were needed.
      The same thing in 1991 - the power rotted, there was no one who would give a written order and take responsibility. It fell down ... and in 1993 it was found, tanks arrived, they shot and everything ... silence ...
      In Hungary / Czechia, the rebels had weapons - the people looked at the army and tanks, scratched their heads and calmed down ..
      Berkut without weapons kept the Maidan within the framework of relative ones - because Yanukovych was afraid of decisive measures, his power also had already ended. And the presence of weapons was not required at all, process time everything was visible. A politician who felt support and power would give an order, they would come a couple of armored personnel carriers, pour these barricades and ancient ukrainian catapults from the KPVT. And Maidan would end on this.

      Turn on the logic - if the government is afraid of people - what does it do first? Correctly enhances security measures - raises the police, raises the army’s readiness, imposes a curfew at last. And if power is strong, how can a man armed with a pistol affect tanks? angry right there the military saw a threat to themselves. Seeing 50 people with pistols, the military will get angry and crumble it all into a small vinaigrette.

      Don’t you believe? The USA, Ferguson is a breakthrough of indignant armed people, and a certain number of people with criminal weapons. And there were many attempts to shoot at the National Guard ?? they’re not stupid, they understand that they will immediately hear from the military
      1. Alex.Kom
        Alex.Kom 16 June 2018 12: 51
        0
        Quote: your1970
        I would give an order, a couple of armored personnel carriers would come, would pour these barricades and ancient Ukrainian catapults from the KPVT. And Maidan would end on this.

        There is a simpler and, at the same time, very effective way: how did Khitrovka liquidated in Moscow at one time? .. They surrounded us with a tight ring, they freely let everyone out, butnobody back did not let! .. A little time passed, and that’s all, "bobik died" ... As they say, "without noise and dust" ...
    3. Squelcher
      Squelcher 16 May 2018 12: 19
      +4
      Are you so worried about the "short" trunk?
      Again, confuse the cause with the investigation, the law on self-defense must be changed. A weapon is a tool. Even a bunch of keys can be protected, and a screwdriver. Or do you think with a short barrel you will automatically be given a license to kill?
      1. morved
        morved 16 May 2018 14: 31
        +6
        He believes that with a short barrel he will have eggs ;-)
        1. Alex.Kom
          Alex.Kom 16 June 2018 13: 12
          +1
          You, I believe, even with a long trunk, nothing will grow ... wink
    4. Okolotochny
      Okolotochny 16 May 2018 21: 00
      +8
      Here and here about the root. Have you read the article? It is not about the problems of allowing and wearing the cop. I’ll tell you a secret - she’s talking about pistol rating problems. Are you bored? Wanted a sracha? Lavrov did not speak about you?
  4. baudolino
    baudolino 16 May 2018 07: 29
    +6
    It would be interesting to know the top of the worst Russian pistols according to the author of the article.
    1. AlexMark
      16 May 2018 11: 47
      +4
      Let's try to do something like that. yes
    2. Vladimir 5
      Vladimir 5 16 May 2018 21: 18
      +3
      The author defends Nagan, but only its reloading makes the revolver only artistic
      museum exhibit already at the beginning of mass use. How many victims due to such reloading, it is impossible to quickly reload in a nervous combat situation, essentially Nagan is disposable in close combat. Adopting Nagan’s weapons at the RIA didn’t do without bribes, perhaps the manual worked - an excuse - "where you have enough ammunition" ... For comparison, an English or American military revolver of the same years, where loading with a barrel or drum tossed sideways , lasts no more than pistol-prepared clips ... It’s not bad to look at Nagan, but it’s very inconvenient to hold it in your hand, it’s impossible to shoot with self-cocking accurately, (personal perceptions) not to mention the specifics of cartridges and other minuses ...
      1. AlexMark
        16 May 2018 22: 10
        +3
        The main reason for adopting the M1985 was not kickbacks and personal acquaintances, these are our modern realities. At that time, the Nagan brothers were the only ones who agreed to the production of a revolver in the Republic of Ingushetia, which was the main reason.
        Before cursing reloading one patron, you need to remember that the fighting of the late nineteenth - early twentieth century was somewhat different from what we have now. At the moment, yes, 6 is really in the direction of the enemy, you can not remember one in yourself and about reloading, for this reason the weapon was removed from service. request
        1. Vladimir 5
          Vladimir 5 18 May 2018 13: 24
          0
          Let me disagree, already in the PMV the rate of fire and store capacity were critical. For example, K. Voroshilov in a civilian in cavalry skirmishes (a bad cutter with a saber) used a gun, so he had at least three guns on his saddle ...
  5. gavrila2984
    gavrila2984 16 May 2018 07: 43
    +7
    Let's see what Charlie Gao says if they shoot him with a "bad" pistol. lol
    1. alex-cn
      alex-cn 16 May 2018 08: 03
      +4
      You can shoot from a kid’s homemade dog.
      But the 5,45x18 cartridge is definitely not for the army.
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 19 May 2018 18: 35
        0
        Quote: alex-cn
        But the 5,45x18 cartridge is definitely not for the army.

        he had never been in the army. and was created for weapons of hidden wearing. OC_23 was also created not for the army, but for the police. He was not adopted by the police.
  6. Tatarin83
    Tatarin83 16 May 2018 08: 00
    +4
    Regarding Nagan, I agree with Charlie. Who shot the Nagan - understand
    1. revnagan
      revnagan 16 May 2018 09: 15
      +1
      I shot. I do not agree. For self-defense, that’s it.
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 16 May 2018 10: 19
        +2
        It may be for self-defense, but it’s army and remained such for decades
        1. Tatarin83
          Tatarin83 16 May 2018 16: 22
          +5
          It is unlikely that you shot from Nagan.
          I fired from a military-grade Nagan and managed not to hit the gongs at 10 meters. On the same day, for the same gongs, I shot from the Colt 1911 (which I also held for the first time) and completely got myself.
          Nagan has at least 2 serious problems, this is a terrible descent, which allows you to get only from the preliminary platoon and a terrible extraction of cartridges that blows and you have to knock them out of the chamber.
          The reason the gun was not removed from service after the appearance of the TT was the exclusively idiotic demand of tankers about the possibility of firing through the embrasure of a tank / armored car. TT stupidly did not prolazit in them J
          1. Kibb
            Kibb 16 May 2018 16: 46
            +2
            Well, it’s quite difficult not to get out of the gun, it hits just fine, especially with a manual platoon and (or) with a dopped trigger, the rest is not sugar at all.
          2. Vladimir 5
            Vladimir 5 16 May 2018 21: 27
            0
            There are more economic reasons. Nagans were made constantly before the adoption of the TT and after, the equipment was loaded, there wasn’t enough of another., And there were a lot of guns, but there weren’t rounds to throw out, so they kept it to the end, even VOKhR, foresters, etc.
            1. Kibb
              Kibb 16 May 2018 22: 16
              +1
              He was accepted for economic reasons in 1895. And so - the railway guard in Ukraine still has - it shoots, why throw it away.
          3. Alex.Kom
            Alex.Kom 16 June 2018 19: 12
            0
            shot from a military-grade Nagan and managed not to hit the gongs at 10 meters.

            For the first time? For the first time, not everyone succeeds ... wink Practice a little longer, you might start to hit ...
      2. Grid
        Grid 16 May 2018 14: 26
        +3
        I shot

        Most likely he didn’t shoot, and if he did, then with a preliminary cocking of the trigger, and not self-cocking. For self-defense, just the same is not the case.
      3. Alex.Kom
        Alex.Kom 16 June 2018 13: 30
        +1
        For self-defense, that’s it.

        When? In 1895, or now? ..
      4. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 21: 13
        0
        Better than nothing, if only that. Modern cartridges make up to 200 Joules, unlike the original ones, which were above 300 Joules.
    2. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 16 May 2018 12: 04
      +4
      Quote: Tatarin83
      Regarding Nagan, I agree with Charlie. Who shot the Nagan - understand


      VOHR is still armed with them.
      At one enterprise, with very limited access, the hard worker, taking the extra on his chest, decided to get to the house in a short way through the fence of a sensitive factory ...
      The alarm went off and the grannies from VOKhR caught the poor fellow on top of the fence.
      To the warning - wait, I’ll shoot - the date of a hard worker, in vain sent the VOKhRovsky ladies on the wrong route. Then a bullet from Nagan - "found a hero."
      A healthy man flew over the fence to the second fence - the stopping action of the bullet, it was enough to send a lifeless body 3 meters away.
      It was only later that the commission was sorted out - the ladies from VOKhR received thanks, a peasant, a monument and a fence.
      And you say, he will understand.
      At a distance of 50 m - Nagan is a very effective weapon if you shoot not at the target, but at people.
      1. Grid
        Grid 16 May 2018 14: 29
        +8
        A healthy man flew over the fence to the second fence - the stopping action of the bullet, it was enough to send a lifeless body 3 meters away

        Oh, how fun. But didn’t you try to teach physics, at least for the 6th grade?
        Try, look and learn to think.
        1. DimerVladimer
          DimerVladimer 16 May 2018 14: 42
          0
          Quote: Grille
          Try, look and learn to think.


          Unlike you - I have mastered and terromat and the highest and mastered and calculate the energy of a bullet - is not particularly difficult. Try to hit a punching bag with Nagan recoil energy - and the man was hanging on the first fence - that's why he flew a few more meters.
          1. Grid
            Grid 16 May 2018 15: 01
            +7
            Unlike you - I and sopromat and Termeh and higher

            Yah? Seriously? I'm in touch ...
            But by the way, I, by the way, am a certified mechanical engineer, I still can’t understand how a bullet with a muzzle energy of 300 J can throw a body weighing 80 kg (on average) by three meters.
            Explain to me, dumb, how can I break the law of conservation of momentum?
            1. zampolit
              zampolit 17 May 2018 15: 08
              +1
              Right! And at the same time, why the old woman’s body didn’t fly off five or six meters, if the man was thrown back by three. :-)
              1. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE 18 May 2018 20: 20
                0
                probably pressed the butt well and the fence was low
            2. YELLOWSTONE
              YELLOWSTONE 18 May 2018 20: 21
              0
              e.g. instantaneous interaction yes
              it is not only high low lol and or far-near (as with the butt)
            3. Alex.Kom
              Alex.Kom 16 June 2018 19: 32
              +1
              Here are such "academics" who talk about the "stopping action of a bullet", a whole battalion ...
              When they say to them that in order to stop a 100 kg bugger running towards 10 m / s (36 km / h), a bullet flying at a speed of 500 m / s should weigh not 10 g, but 2 kg - they are very surprised, they say: 240gn 45 gauge is enough ...
              People do not understand that in order to stop the "client", you just need to kill him.
          2. The comment was deleted.
      2. novel66
        novel66 16 May 2018 14: 43
        +4
        and reload in battle? one at a time poking cartridges? I would not want ...
    3. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 21: 06
      0
      No, not so formulated. He will understand that Nagan is a useless revolver who shot not only from Nagan revolvers.

      It is common sense to say that Nagan is better than Smith or Colt of the same or a little later year of release - this is to say nothing. And about kickbacks in tests - also true. The condition was a revolver bullet should stop the horse.

      Which of the hunters would agree that a revolver bullet stop an elk?
      I think that no one.
  7. the47th
    the47th 16 May 2018 09: 38
    +2
    I wouldn’t remove Nagan from the top because it was, due to its unique design, too dead by the standards of revolvers of those years (7,62 * 38 was 1,5 times more dead than .44 Russian). And with a more or less powerful cartridge, its drum running on the barrel would not work. And PJs are now quite quoted:
    1. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 19 May 2018 18: 43
      0
      Quote: the47th
      And with a more or less powerful cartridge, its drum running on the barrel would not work.

      don't make my slippers laugh. And then they remembered that the supply of the drum is carried out by the wedge and before the shot. As this is commensurate with the power of the cartridge, they did not even have time to figure it out, turned over from laughter.
  8. Zakonnik
    Zakonnik 16 May 2018 10: 03
    +5
    Usual Western hatred, combined with non-competitive methods of struggle - we will smear someone else with our dirt, maybe buyers will be transferred.
    1. Alex.Kom
      Alex.Kom 17 June 2018 00: 28
      0
      Buyers of what? The Nagans are already in steady demand, especially of the pre-revolutionary issue, the question is how many there are ... If Drotik were sold, they would take him into a fight, the question is not what they don’t want to take, but what they don’t sell ... ( Collectors like that in general, tear off their hands and gnaw out the liver.)
      What else is there? .. P-96 and PY: both trunks are more than average, competitors are sea, quality is so-so, if not worse, the result: only for the collection, and only ...
      Swift remained, a purely sports pistol, while it was unavailable, everyone wanted it, but when it appeared they cooled down, he didn’t show himself as sporty, and the old truth says: “The louder the scream, the worse the goods.” Praised in general ...
  9. beeper
    beeper 16 May 2018 11: 38
    +2
    Nagan, of course, Charlie pulled his ears very, very strongly, and the OTs-23 “Dartik” too (as this Go generally found out about him, from which side did he fall ???, this is an experienced, archimelkoseriynaya production! yes )!
    And I completely agree with the rest of the rating, the city is the city, there's nothing to be done, except that the families of unprincipled (after all, human lives are at stake !!!) conjunctural designers and those who helped to "cut the budget", pushing into the arms of the Russian army this hastily cobbled together "damp"! request IMHO
    1. your1970
      your1970 16 May 2018 12: 11
      +2
      but why did he forget to drag Parabellum, M1911 and other rarities - quite vigorously fulfilling the assigned task all over the planet? and rifles / machine guns for ancient (more than 100 years old !!!) cartridges?
      Also to say the least - "Young was not young!" © 12 chairs
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 19 May 2018 18: 46
        0
        Quote: your1970
        and why did he forget to pull Parabellum, M1911 ...
        And what, did they release Parabellum and M1911? I didn’t know, thanks for enlightening the idiot, I’m very grateful.
  10. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer 16 May 2018 11: 51
    +2
    I read that article "ekpedra" - especially about the M1895 revolver "pleased", long discontinued.
    Thanks for the competent analysis.
  11. Kibb
    Kibb 16 May 2018 12: 13
    +8
    Quote: DimerVladimer
    it was enough to send a lifeless body into the flight of a meter by 3.

    No bullet sends a body into flight, watch less militants. Adults like, we talk about weapons, but at the same time we carry nonsense with childish directness
    1. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 16 May 2018 14: 45
      0
      Quote: Kibb
      No bullet sends a body into flight, watch less militants. Adults like, we talk about weapons, but at the same time we carry nonsense with childish directness


      Read carefully - the body was on a fence 2,5-3 meters high, so it flew far enough, I fully admit that along the ballistic trajectory it was only descending.
      The story is real.
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 16 May 2018 15: 29
        +4
        Sorry, but this does not apply to the ballistics of the revolver, and the stopping action of the bullet that you mentioned. Any body can squeal from the fence from being hit even from pneumatics, but in order for the Nagan to throw the body three meters away, it must shoot about 50 mm with a solid flat blank at the same initial speed, and even that should be like a bronik that will keep such a hit (the body will really not care how much it flies off).
  12. Leomobil
    Leomobil 16 May 2018 13: 41
    +4
    It’s a pity that I can’t ask a question to Yarygin himself, but I ask the same question regularly - do you even know the statistics of officers? Who will spend the most time with this "retro iron"? They live in their fantasies and listen to experts from special forces, and how many of these specialists in relation to those who go on duty every day to the CP, to patrol, to outfit, etc. Create weapons for specialists? Good! Do three, well, five pieces and calm down !. The ratio of personal weapons among officers who even in the enemy’s war will never personally see is many times greater than those who can use them in battle. Back in the early 90s, with tears, they asked to make personal weapons for Cosmos, Strategic Missile Forces, Air Defense, EW, Communications, Staffs, Engineering, etc. whatever may be lightweight, maybe even disposable, in a recognizable case but not very large, so to speak, an element of form, but functional. No, get one and a half kilo of problems on your side, and as you like - sleep, eat and ... with him for weeks, do not leave, do not hide. People should be thought about, and not about their ambitions of the "great designers", Colt da Makarov’s laurels are strangled. In short - we don’t have good pistols at all, and the specialists didn’t appease the rest of the “Makar” - shit, but their own, dear! :)
    1. Leomobil
      Leomobil 16 May 2018 13: 52
      +2
      And further :) ! Nagan in this sense is much better, it is convenient to throw it, it flies far, and if you train it is pretty accurate. :)
    2. Grid
      Grid 16 May 2018 14: 34
      +5
      "Makar" is more familiar - shit, but its own! :)

      Well PM is far from shit, especially the USSR issue.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. morved
      morved 16 May 2018 14: 37
      +1
      Here you can immediately see a person familiar with army realities. It’s not for nothing that Makarov has been quoted for so many years, because as a pan-army pistol which is more of a status thing, well, he will shoot himself if something happens (well, to make the soldier refuse to obey the order) more than. At the same time it is convenient in daily wear, reliable and familiar.
      1. beeper
        beeper 16 May 2018 15: 48
        +4
        A good pistol "Makarov" (balanced in its combat and operational qualities)!
        Of all the known ones, I would always prefer PM! I always shot perfectly from him and got where I wanted, from the first shot, at distances up to 50 meters, at least! yes
        We love about the armor-piercing of guns homo-IMHO, it's all empty, the gun is not designed for this, the designers of this desire only harm, making it heavier and making it bulky "log"! It makes it difficult to quickly grab and "maneuver fire", which at close range is crucial!
        Learn to wield your personal weapons so that, by 15-20 meters, offhand, with one hand (and not with two!))), Confidently get into a ruble coin (and even a beer can) and the "armor-piercing problem" will be solved- if necessary, enter .adu on top of the bulletproof vest, in the head, throat or limb, it doesn’t seem to be enough, and no “most bulletproof” bulletproof vest will save! yes
        hi
        1. Grid
          Grid 17 May 2018 16: 41
          +3
          Of all the known ones, I would always prefer PM!

          Similarly. Just changed the handle a little ... By the arm.
        2. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 21: 33
          +1
          But I’m interested in asking about how many thousands of rounds of ammunition a year are shot by the one who boasts about getting into the ruble coin offhand with one hand on 15-20 methods. This is either the Great Master (which I do not know) or the person is notorious in ... fantasizing.

          stop
    5. Kibb
      Kibb 16 May 2018 15: 47
      +4
      Well, Yarygin most likely has nothing to do with what was demanded of him and did it, unfortunately, we don’t like it
      1. beeper
        beeper 16 May 2018 16: 10
        +3
        “Pyarygin” and Yarygin have nothing to do with it, comrade Kibb ?! smile
        But did he see what he was doing ?! request And during the “redesigning” of Margolin’s pistol, he distinguished himself in Drill, too, “compromisingly”, he robbed and sold off a beautiful pistol in the city of?! yes
        Unsuitable for mass production in wartime, and even unreliable (I’m not saying that it’s also ugly in appearance! Impersonal weapons should caress the eyes and hands of their owner, fall in love with themselves at first sight ... and to the last .. . winked ) the gun shoved the "comrades" into the arsenal of the army and didn’t have anything to do with it, or didn’t he understand that the "sporting" gun, externally and internally, is not suitable for the army? wink
        1. Kibb
          Kibb 16 May 2018 16: 58
          +2
          Tokarev also saw what he was doing, but I have no complaints about his work in relation to TT - what he demanded of him, he did - the “customer” wanted to see him just like that. But the TT is not on the list, but it deserves it.
          1. beeper
            beeper 16 May 2018 18: 17
            +4
            Comrade Kibb! And what kind of samples were in service with the Red Army and likely opponents during the creation of the first TT arr. 1930, what were the Soviet gunsmiths and military equal to then, with which they were compared, whose concept became determining how developed the production capabilities of the USSR arms industry were ?!
            The creation of an army pistol in those years was approached by the standards of the First World War and production capabilities, including the use of rejected rifle and machine gun barrels of 7.62 mm caliber, which is why the TT turned out like that. The springs, by the way, were then selected experimentally, and not calculated. Steel and its heat treatment were also the lot of empiricism ...
            At the time of the creation of the PN, everything was different, the level of production, materials science and design and technological support was much, much higher, the experience of operating outstanding domestic and foreign pistols was already comprehended and systematized ..., even before the collapse of the Union, they were formulated and issued to designers -the gunsmiths requirements for the design of a new army pistol.
            Even if these requirements were incompetently “corrected” in the post-perestroika period, let’s say that the Russian gunsmiths sincerely sought to satisfy the demands of the Russian Armed Forces, and did not by all means try to enter international markets with their own product and, especially, please the tastes of American consumers (I have such a stupid assumption, IMHO, that they really, really wanted to enter the US arms market, and the Russian army was considered only as an involuntary sponsor?) ?!
            Indeed, according to the clearly "non-army (for the army, completely different design and technological solutions of components and parts should be. IMHO)" stuffing the design of the ПЯ you can’t say that this pistol was created for the army (even if some generals from the GRAU supervised the technical assignment and reception tests). Or the "designer of sports pistols" did not see the difference between sports and army weapons, that is, really nothing to do with and does not bear any responsibility for their design ?!
            But, by the way, what am I worried about ?! Foolish, I probably have nothing more to do ?! request
            My good relationship to you, comrade Kibb, this whole “working debate” does not concern!
            Best regards hi
            1. Tank hard
              Tank hard 17 May 2018 13: 01
              +1
              Great answer! good
              Comrade Pischak hi
            2. Alex.Kom
              Alex.Kom 17 June 2018 23: 02
              +1
              "Well, damn it, you give ..."
              Tokarev picked up the springs empirically because he was just a locksmith and not an engineer, although a talented gunsmith who worked with Fedorov, while the engineers were quite able to count, and not only the springs, read at least Blagonravov, he’s at that time published books on this subject ...
              Because these people were educated before the 17th year, and those who studied after that were taught by world-renowned scientists, we can say luminaries, so their knowledge base was very serious ... By the way, both in metallurgy and heat treatment and other sciences understood well, because studied with the founders of many applied sciences, laying their foundations ...
              1. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 21: 36
                0
                Makarov proposed to count Tokarev springs. He knew how to count, and Tokarev was surprised that in general it can be counted.

                hi
          2. 4thParasinok
            4thParasinok 19 May 2018 18: 55
            0
            Quote: Kibb
            Tokarev also saw what he was doing, but I have no complaints about his work in relation to TT - what he demanded of him, he did - the “customer” wanted to see him just like that. But the TT is not on the list, but it deserves it.

            it you have no complaints, but those who fought were. Yes, and I wonder why, already in 1936, a competition was announced for a new pistol for replacing the TT (adopted for service in 1933). It wasn’t the turner that made it what was ordered, it just wasn’t better at that moment ..
            1. Kibb
              Kibb 21 May 2018 09: 19
              0
              Duc with claims probably to the "customer" and to the capabilities of the industry.
              1. 4thParasinok
                4thParasinok 10 June 2018 19: 31
                +1
                A little think?
                Claims were specifically to the designer. TT was just the second pistol designed in the USSR (alteration from Tokarev’s carbine of the 30th year by shortening the barrel and removing the wooden fore-end). Neither Korovin nor Tokarev simply knew what a normal pistol should be. TTs were adopted not by the fact that it is good, but by the fact that there was simply no friend.
            2. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 21: 37
              0
              Because in Belgium they already made Browning High Power with a two-row store.
  13. Dedrusav
    Dedrusav 16 May 2018 15: 21
    +1
    X-fart called "Nagan" among the bad GUNS ... The level of foreign X-fart is clear, like a stump after rain.
    1. Tatarin83
      Tatarin83 16 May 2018 16: 25
      +2
      Do you think he wrote in Russian, in capital letters GUNS? The expert wrote in English, and most likely wrote about handguns or smallarms, which combines both pistols and songlovers
    2. AlexMark
      16 May 2018 17: 15
      +2
      Not to start a dispute, but simply as an interesting point. In accordance with GOST 51888-2002 "Revolver: pistol with a rotating block of chambers or trunks "I completely disagree with this definition, but what we have, we have request
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 16 May 2018 21: 31
        +1
        What's the problem? Of course, we understand what the difference is, but in fact, both are pistols.
        1. AlexMark
          16 May 2018 22: 03
          +2
          Absolutely not a problem) It's me that technically you can call a revolver a pistol, even with reference to the regulatory document lol
          The quickest thing to do was just a cut. If you look at the definition of "Pistol", then it is "Short-barreled firearms, designed to hold and control when firing with one hand." If we replace the word “pistol” in the definition of a revolver with the definition of a pistol, then everything becomes relatively good)
          Revolver - a short-barreled firearm designed to hold and control when firing with one hand with a rotating block of chambers or trunks. Only here about the rotating block of trunks, I would still remove and give one more definition.
      2. Alex.Kom
        Alex.Kom 18 June 2018 17: 02
        0
        Quote: AlexMark
        In accordance with GOST 51888-2002 "Revolver: gun with a rotating block of chambers or barrels"

        "Sheep walk in a row, beat the drums ..." wink
        And Charlie Gao turns out to know the Russian GOST ... laughing
      3. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 21: 43
        +1
        You’ll laugh, but the double-barreled deringer in Estonia is registered in the category of revolvers for the reason that the revolver is worn with a fully charged drum (a rotating cartridge chamber), and the gun cannot be carried with a cartridge in the chamber. Derringer without a cartridge in the chamber does not make sense. Because - a revolver.

        Such laws ...
  14. ICT
    ICT 16 May 2018 16: 04
    +1
    Brothers, silent shooting device,

    1. Kibb
      Kibb 21 May 2018 09: 23
      0
      And what, right in 1895, when they adopted Nagan, they thought about using it with a silencer, and now the whole army needed a gun with a silencer. But of course the property turned out to be useful.
  15. Kibb
    Kibb 16 May 2018 17: 09
    +2
    Quote: Grille
    "Makar" is more familiar - shit, but its own! :)

    Well PM is far from shit, especially the USSR issue.

    As an official, he is good, as an army he is not. The army should be Stechkin. We rushed from one extreme (7,62x25) to the other (9x18). Pride is not allowed to immediately take 9x19?
    Another question is whether an army pistol is needed at all - an official yes, a status one, but an army one. Especially in the after adoption of the AK
    1. Leomobil
      Leomobil 16 May 2018 23: 45
      +2
      It's just a blank wall, sect! It’s the 21st century, and they forge retro clones 100 years ago and call them modern weapons. Well, at least something new done? Let scandalous, albeit crooked, but new, revolutionary. Well, for example, one-time with 6 rounds for the garrison and guard in peacetime. Or lightweight plastic for officers on alert (they are better guarded than a bank), noy h..n their weapons - to ensure the protection of secret documents during shift-shift, and what? For the sake of this, each kilogram of iron? This is what the service would not seem to be honey. The main problem of our weapons system is a disregard for those who should serve the homeland. Gigantomania, snobbery, and obstinacy. The warriors are blaming on the designers, those on the warrior, in the end they write the technical task for the finished product from dusty closets. And the result - shit is exchanged for manure and back, but in a new package.
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 17 May 2018 12: 34
        0
        Are you the next reincarnation of carbine?
      2. Grid
        Grid 19 May 2018 05: 50
        0
        It’s the 21st century, and they forge retro clones 100 years ago and call them modern weapons. Well, at least something new done?

        From what and how?
        Here, as soon as they develop materials that can confidently "hold" pressure above 340 MPa, while the technology for processing them will not be too complicated, respectively, both will not have a sky-high price tag, they will do it right away. Almost right tomorrow.
        Well, for example, one-time with 6 rounds for garrison and guard in peacetime

        This is to Shpakovsky. Yong is an expert on such nonsense.
        As a result, they write the technical task for the finished product from dusty closets.

        Well, you know, you can immediately write a sound TTZ?
      3. gross kaput
        gross kaput 19 May 2018 12: 31
        0
        Quote: Leomobil
        It's just a blank wall, sect!

        Not a friend, it’s just another expert who didn’t carry a personal weapon himself for a day but believes that he knows best from the couch what the “non-firing” VKS officers and other duty and patrol officers need.
        And they are in fact at least as big as the weight of macaroni in cabaret because he doesn’t have a big role for walking on the lung or sitting at the table, he dragged the PM for more than 10 years, of which for several years the gun was at a standstill - it doesn’t cause any convenience it doesn’t pull the earth :) Moreover, people occasionally managed to lose the gun without noticing it right away - one clown took off a full-time holster in the toilet and put it on the battery so that he could defecate it was handy and noticed that there wasn’t a gun only when he went to disarm, another horseman-cowboy dragged the gun to open holster at the same time отриц denying the trainer, considering him not a Dzhigitsky accessory, as a result he went to tear into a blue cabin in a roadside cafe and happily gurgled him in the point and didn’t notice it just as well and found that he was missing only when he disarmed - as a result, a rescue operation was carried out to catch the gun from the pit at night with shit with a magnet :).
    2. Grid
      Grid 17 May 2018 16: 51
      +2
      As an official, he is good, as an army he is not.

      And what are the requirements for an "army" pistol? What should he do?
      By the way, the term "army pistol" refers to the Strugatsky.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 21: 51
        0
        And what is a Glock 17 pistol? Military, police, sports, self-defense, hunting for the wounded animal?

        Here are the cartridges with which bullets you load there, this will be.
        If the paws are small, take Glock 19.

        If you need to hitch, take Glock 26 or Glock 43.

        And if you need to fight off polar bears, take Glock 20.

        hi
    3. morved
      morved 17 May 2018 21: 51
      0
      Because of stupidity and youth, being a leitech, before sending to Chechnya I ran into the beginning of the village. RAV regiment on the subject that the state "at war" seems to me like an APS (actually mistaken, the states have been updated for a long time, but the command did not understand them even more) and still got it. What to say young. In general, an army pistol should be approximately like a PM, it is like authorized shoes that are worn only in peacetime, and in war an army pistol is AK or AKSU.
      1. Grid
        Grid 18 May 2018 14: 55
        0
        That's it. I was about the same there and at about the same time I realized.
        If you fell in love with a submachine gun, then a gun, at least as sophisticated as it is, will only help you shoot yourself.
      2. YELLOWSTONE
        YELLOWSTONE 18 May 2018 23: 03
        +1
        do you propose that in addition to senior tank officers and pilots, the machine gunner of the PC, grenade throwers, a flamethrower and a sniper carry machine guns on themselves?
        perhaps only because of this "error" survived
        1. morved
          morved 19 May 2018 00: 34
          +1
          In addition to the PKK or PKM, the machine gunners did not carry anything, and somehow I didn’t hear that they complained about it. Sniper too. The Kalashnikov grenade launcher. By the way, I don’t remember that at least once RPG-7 grenade launchers carried only disposable ones with them. The tankers and AKS-74 and AKSU and AK-74 with a plastic butt that, as usual, but folds. I’ve never seen a tanker with a gun. AGSnikov also have Kalash. By the way, as regards the machine gunner, it seems to me that if he, instead of RMB, decides to populate it with a pistol, then he will then annoy the whole platoon on the cumpole for it’s not worth the garbage to suffer. Is a flamethrower chemists with bumblebees or something? So those Ak in the state.

          Father-in-law on a su-24 they flew exactly like an AKSU in a NZ which ejects with you, which others don’t know - in Syria, a pilot of an APS attack aircraft was firing, so there is no such possibility on an attack aircraft.
          The native connection is all with the Kalashnikovs. Even if on KNP they are guarding you more abruptly than any banker (well, not specifically you, but nonetheless).
          The Kalash battalion commander, the NS Kalash battalion, the regiment did not have a clue, but at least accompanied by an armored troop carrier with a detachment, he traveled so that he was unarmed.

          Personally, I can’t imagine when a gun in the war would be necessary for these categories of military personnel (I don’t talk about pilots because I don’t know about them simply).
          1. YELLOWSTONE
            YELLOWSTONE 19 May 2018 00: 52
            +1
            the gunner relies on the PC machine gunner for sure, but since it didn’t mean that they were afraid that the sniper boltovik or 12,7 would probably grow up too, but you can think of shooting them for example in close combat or in cramped conditions when someone comes in from behind or the sub-account to knock on Kumpolu will not and will have to do legs
            in disposable hand grenade launchers, not the whole range and you will not take a lot of them with you
            1. morved
              morved 19 May 2018 01: 17
              0
              and tankers are supposed to, I wrote to you that in reality they took "to the war." All sorts of 338, 12,7 and other high-precision is already the level of special skills, an ordinary MSV sniper is the one who runs the gun with the SVD not really needed.

              Just disposable can be taken more for them as a group scattered all. And so the RPG-7 is primarily more accurate and long-range, but for some reason they didn’t take it. At least I don’t remember that. At construction, he was with a grenade launcher and AK. And even with a portlet with shots.
              1. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE 19 May 2018 01: 26
                +1
                he also needs and relies
                because they didn’t let me take it,
                in sniper-grenade launcher pair for example a lot of this group can not take
                it was usually when they even made the special to hand over everything and then banged unarmed with a whole bus or two on the way to the airport, and you got your extra unaccounted trunk out of place yes
                1. morved
                  morved 19 May 2018 01: 53
                  0
                  a sniper-grenade launcher pair is not about our army, and I don’t understand the meaning of it for combined arms officers. The minimum tactical unit is a platoon of 10 RPG-26 drags along without problems despite the fact that the standard RPG-7 is 5 shots (2 at the grenade launcher, and 3 at the assistant, you can not carry in the barrel)

                  Do not confuse the first Chechen, or especially interbelum and second company. Everything that was supposed to be in the state was with itself, and whether or not platooners and company men decided to take it or not.

                  The real war is a little different from the count of duti - no one will send Basayev to eliminate Basayev, he will act in combat formations of the unit, and even the machine gunner, all the more, the need for a short barrel as the last chance ... well, as if the whole platoon had to die for this . Do you really think that in this case, let the most sophisticated and powerful gun help?

                  and two and a half hundreds of SSOshnikov can be armed with anything from the FSB FShny SR-1 to import. And dozens of thousands of officers are not condemned to suffer with a "combat" pistol.
                  1. YELLOWSTONE
                    YELLOWSTONE 19 May 2018 02: 50
                    0
                    separation, it’s better to shoot a dedicated grenade launcher in most cases or two, die or split, well, as it happens in a war, a combined-arms sniper may want to eliminate it.
                    The setup with Budanov was in which of them? wouldn’t they have complied with the order of the authorities?
                    what is this officer who is tormented with a gun and even a combat one?
          2. Grid
            Grid 19 May 2018 05: 36
            0
            The Kalashnikov grenade launcher. By the way, I don’t remember that at least once RPG-7 grenade launchers carried only disposable ones with them.

            Dragged, but not always. But disposable were not only for grenade launchers ...
            By the way, as regards the machine gunner, it seems to me that if he, instead of RMB, decides to populate it with a pistol, then he will then annoy the whole platoon on the cumpole for it’s not worth the garbage to suffer.

            Yeah. Or surrender to a good doctor for experiments ...
      3. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 22: 03
        0
        Actually, no matter how reliable Kalash would be, but there are also plugs when you need to shoot right now, but you can’t. Anything can happen ...

        That’s why there’s a gun, and it’s advisable that it has more rounds. More cartridges - you live longer.

        hi
    4. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 19 May 2018 19: 03
      0
      Quote: Kibb
      As an official, he is good, as an army he is not.

      laughing I laugh, I can’t ... Learn the terms of the Russian language. An army pistol is official in colloquial terms ...
      1. Alex.Kom
        Alex.Kom 18 June 2018 19: 31
        0
        The term "army" does not exist, "army" - this is vernacular ... There are: "military weapons", "service" and "civilian", but, again, by designation, the same PM is one in three faces ": when he is in the army, he is" combat ", in the police -" official ", if the award, then" civilian "... wink But the gun is the same. It’s more correct to say: “a pistol adopted for service ... (by the army, police, authorized for civilian circulation)”, but this is too long ... sad It is in terms.
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 22: 14
          0
          What ammo you charge, this will be. Charge armor-piercing - it will be a military pistol, charge expansive - it will be a police officer or self-defense (in Europe it is impossible to expansive either), charge an all-shell - it will be sports.
  16. Doliva63
    Doliva63 16 May 2018 18: 45
    +6
    It seems that old PM is still out of competition. "Made in the USSR" (c)
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 22: 16
      0
      This is where the competition? In Russia? Fishlessness and cancer are fish.

      stop
  17. Kibb
    Kibb 16 May 2018 20: 37
    +1
    Quote: pishchak
    Kibb ovary! And what kind of samples were in service with the Red Army and likely opponents during the creation of the first TT arr. 1930, what were the Soviet gunsmiths and military equal to then, with which they were compared, whose concept became determining how developed the production capabilities of the USSR arms industry were ?!

    Quite rightly, in the 30th year the United States only had an army pistol, and Germany had a big stretch (in the absence of the army itself, and Luger is still controversial, but for that the cartridge ...) but this doesn't make the TT better
    Quote: pishchak
    At the time of the creation of the PN, everything was different, the level of production, materials science and design and technological support was much, much higher, the experience of operating outstanding domestic and foreign pistols was already comprehended and systematized ..., even before the collapse of the Union, they were formulated and issued to designers -the gunsmiths requirements for the design of a new army pistol.

    Yes, naturally, the Grach theme was discovered back in the eighties, but apparently the conditions for accepting the final result were very similar.
    In general, I won’t comment completely, because I agree with almost everything, but the fact remains after Smith-Wesson, we didn’t have and don’t have an army pistol (well, it doesn’t work out like pistols), is there another question: do we need it in general, as a weapon of the battlefield, or enough service / status. And a completely different conversation will go if we talk about the police, special equipment, etc., etc.
    1. beeper
      beeper 16 May 2018 21: 38
      +2
      I read and, in principle, agree with you, comrade Kibb! yes
      Regarding the army pistol and its concept, the topic is quite controversial and voluminous, needs a lot of authoritative "competencies" and I don’t think it is advisable to start a spontaneous discussion here, probably, will you support me in this ?!
      But Comrade Mark Poddubny, as a WO author who has proved himself to be an indifferent, who seeks and constantly raises his profile qualifications, he could have acted as a Skirmisher of such a public debate-discussion by writing an Article with his own thoughts on the subject of the Army Pistol, because it’s not the Gods who burn the pots, Comrade Mark ?!
      Of course, one must take into account the mega-open nature of such a discussion and that the "partners" do not sleep at all and "filter the entire bazaar", wrapping themselves around the mustache! wink yes
      Best regards hi
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 16 May 2018 22: 05
        +1
        Quote: pishchak
        Of course, one must take into account the mega-open nature of such a discussion and that the "partners" do not sleep at all and "filter the entire bazaar", wrapping themselves around the mustache!

        So everything is quite simple and there is no need to be a "shpien". The modernized assault rifle is quite universal and it is easier for an army soldier to take a couple of extra stores than a heavy drin in the form of an M9, and in case of emergency, a service fart will do. However, the "glock-like" opened a new page and there is already "not everything is clear."
        1. Tank hard
          Tank hard 17 May 2018 13: 15
          +3
          Quote: Kibb
          heavy drin in the form of M9

          I had to somehow hold this Beretta in my hands ... With the not very small size of my palm, I could not fully grasp the hilt of this monster, and the weight ... In short, I did not like it. Although maybe I just do not understand ... request
          1. Kibb
            Kibb 18 May 2018 09: 32
            +1
            And here I have a small palm - so only with two hands, otherwise it just turned out. I even had to serve with Beretta (though it was 92s, but in this case it doesn’t matter), and then I used the Cz75b for a long time. I really had a full-time self-loading rifle, so I still need a gun ... but not all two meters are tall and "a hundred pounds" kg. At my 175 and 80 this drin was a burden, then the used Glock 17. Although I couldn’t achieve such quality of shooting (in the dash) as on Chiz (I don’t like drum pistols), but it’s much more convenient to carry it when comparable performance
            1. Tank hard
              Tank hard 18 May 2018 12: 13
              +2
              hi I like Makarov, reliable and compact, I believe that a gun is needed as a weapon of last chance at very short distances, up to 25 meters, and even up to 15 ... I don’t really understand why the army needs a “more powerful cartridge - a gun." After all, almost everyone uses assault rifles of various kinds. Unless for special tasks, but large parties are not needed here, small series maybe ... So, I don’t understand all this hype about the “new, concrete, the very gun itself” for the armed forces. One of my acquaintances, rattle, commander for combat and special training of one of the special forces with combat experience since the first Abkhazia, used different types, talking about glock. that he’s not bad, but he always preferred the APS everywhere, in spite of its size, he even made a holster for the APS himself. Unfortunately, I don’t have any experience in using different types of pistols, and the shooter isn’t really ... And one more thing ... I live in a region where winter is almost 7 months (or even more) a year, it is not uncommon for frosts of 30 degrees, sometimes higher. In such conditions, various plastics do not show their best. I have all the bags and backpacks with metal fittings. Plastic almost always bursts from frost under load. How will a weapon such as Glock behave in such conditions? However, I do not consider myself a specialist, I can be mistaken, I am always interested in the opinion of experienced people.
              1. Grid
                Grid 19 May 2018 19: 20
                0
                I do not quite understand why the army needs a "more powerful cartridge - a gun."

                Body armor, sir ...
                There is only a nuance. If you have a place to be in a zone of real hostilities, then you will have a machine gun at hand if you are not an idot. And with it the corresponding ammunition, which obviously covers the gun like a bull to a sheep.
                On the other hand, if you are a staff officer, far from contact with the enemy, then you do not need PM.
                The bottom line is the specialists and sofa soldiers, who need such an aggregate. We don’t have so many specialists, but at least there are messy military ...
                1. Tank hard
                  Tank hard 20 May 2018 12: 47
                  +1
                  Quote: Grille
                  Body armor, sir.

                  Automata, sir ...
                  Quote: Grille
                  If you have a place to be in a zone of real military operations, then you will have a machine gun at hand, if you don’t go

                  You can still be a civilian, and have a place to be in the zone of real hostilities. And not have any weapons. Why this opus?
                  Quote: Grille
                  couch military

                  Self criticism?
                  Quote: Grille
                  You’ll have a machine at hand if you don’t go idot. And with it the corresponding ammunition, which obviously covers the gun like a bull to a sheep.

                  And the machine gun covers the machine gun, and the machine gun covers the machine gun, etc. etc ... Judging by the comment:
                  Quote: Grille
                  In the dry residue

                  Quote: Grille
                  couch warriors at least heaped ...

                  yes
                  1. Grid
                    Grid 20 May 2018 16: 11
                    0
                    Automata, sir ...

                    Well, I wrote about this. Read carefully.
                    You can still be a civilian

                    And I didn’t touch civilians at all. Civilians from the war zone need to run ahead of their own screech, this is an axiom from the time of the WWII, if that.

                    couch warriors at least heaped ...
                    What, I’m telling you, military couch, and trying to explain ..
                    But you won’t understand until they start to shoot at you expertly, because you don’t have time ...
                    1. Tank hard
                      Tank hard 20 May 2018 18: 18
                      +1
                      Quote: Grille
                      What am I trying to explain to you, couch military

                      Judging by your opuses, you are a very alternatively gifted individual. laughing
                      1. Grid
                        Grid 20 May 2018 18: 22
                        0
                        Judging by your comments, you can plug the Royal Tiger with a knife and knock down a B-2 spit ...
                        Good luck trying ... One-time.
              2. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE 20 May 2018 09: 26
                +1
                long range, no bulletproof vests during the appearance of Stechkin laughing
              3. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 22: 28
                0
                I shot from Glock 17 (I had to shoot a competition) in the cold of minus 35 degrees, moreover, with my bare hands and before that, I equipped Glokovsky plastic stores. No problem. And with Shig P226 - could not. Fingers cramped from the damn piece of iron.

                The Danish patrol "Sirius", which for several months (six months?) Have been driving around the property in Greenland on dogs, are armed with M1917 bolt rifles and Glock 20 caliber 10mm auto pistols. They had plenty to choose from. We chose this weapon.

                Glock also works normally at low temperatures.
            2. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 22: 22
              0
              I trust only Glock my life. I have several of them. Of the 17th since 2011, there was not a single delay due to the fault of the pistol. With a fall in the swamp and clay. These are many, many thousands of rounds. About 4000 a year. How much is the money - counted and wept.
          2. Alex.Kom
            Alex.Kom 19 June 2018 00: 29
            0
            Quote: Tank Hard
            I had to somehow hold this Beretta in my hands ... With the not very small size of my palm, I could not grasp the hilt of this monster completely, and the weight ...

            I don’t know, I don’t know ... How many people, so many opinions ...
            The handle was indeed designed by some stupid people, made obvious, elementary mistakes ... I have only 5 mm left between the tips of my middle and ring fingers and the back of my hand, and the tips of the index and thumb interfere with each other, I exit position by pressing the thumb up as far as possible, resting from below on the shutter latch lever, otherwise it doesn’t ... sad
            Even with self-cocking, the bend between the first and second phalanges falls on the trigger, and with a pre-cocking (as a pistol should shoot), the bend between the second and third phalanges. If you put the middle of the first phalanx on the trigger, as it should be, then the angle between the second and third phalanxes will be sharp (less than 90 g), it is completely impossible to control the descent. sad
            And I don’t have the biggest hands, and my fingers are not at all “musical”, but would they be even longer? .. I saw fists one and a half times bigger than mine, really the size of a beer mug, what should I do with them? .. sad
            1. Alex.Kom
              Alex.Kom 19 June 2018 00: 45
              0
              The handle of the 92nd is thick, but somehow ... narrow or something, and the axis of the trigger is set incorrectly, too close, the hook should be more straight (with a large radius) ... Yes, it’s heavy, I’m like " non-wearing, "I immediately feel it, although the one who wears constantly, probably gets used to it ... On the other hand, the PM with cartridges of 810 grams is not much smaller if worn on a belt without support, and the one and the other, the pants will definitely be" removed "... wink
              PS Damn, why I don’t add large amounts of text, here the people scribble, my hands will fall off so much “trample clav” ...
      2. AlexMark
        16 May 2018 22: 16
        +2
        Thank you for the topic for the article. Recently it has become more difficult to search for something that has not yet been encountered at the military education). Partly this topic has already been raised on the issue of modern cartridges for pistols and PP https://topwar.ru/139822-sovremennye-patrony-dlya
        -pistoleta-i-pistoleta-pulemeta.html will now mean trying to make "requirements" for the weapon itself hi
        1. beeper
          beeper 17 May 2018 00: 22
          +4
          Comrade Mark, probably, you don't need to make any “requirements” ?! And just describe the Pistol of your Dreams, how you see it, and that version of it, which, in your opinion, this or that category of users can see in their dreams.
          I’ll tell myself how I feel: Confident skills in owning a pistol (I don’t even consider a two-handed grip, a pistol is always a one-handed weapon! IMHO) and accurate pistol shooting (revolver) gives moral and psychological stability in stressful situations, in including in battle, even with a numerically superior opponent, even if you have this pistol with you and do not, but there is only a stone at hand, such a paradox! yes
          Therefore, I believe that confident possession of a pistol needs to be trained for each soldier, regardless of the military profession, as the basis of the Fighting Spirit!
          Well, and, of course, well-aimed pistol shooting (with an open scope, aiming with your guiding eye, with both open!) - this is the basis of well-aimed shooting from any army, sports and hunting weapon!
          So feel free to dream! And the Case of the Real Designer-gunsmith is to realize these Dreams of the Warrior and Citizen, to give him the best Weapon for the Defense of the Fatherland, Dignity and Honor!
          Go ahead, Mark! If you think and dream, then you have a wagon and a small cart! wink
          Best regards hi
    2. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 19 May 2018 19: 10
      0
      Quote: Kibb
      Quite rightly, in the 30th year the United States only had an army pistol, and Germany had a big stretch (in the absence of the army itself, and Luger is still controversial, but for that the cartridge ...) but this doesn't make the TT better

      I wonder where the guns from the armies of Japan, Spain, France, Austria, England and dale disappeared?
      1. Tank hard
        Tank hard 20 May 2018 13: 12
        0
        Quote: 4-th Paradise
        I wonder where the guns from the armies of Japan, Spain, France, Austria, England and where on the list disappeared

        And on the 30th year, in the countries you mentioned, nothing significant was created, or copies of US - German pistols such as Browning (Spain), Mauser (Spain), Colt 1911 chambered for Webley caliber .455 (Great Britain) were used. The same famous Browning "High Power" became the main military pistol in Great Britain only from the 50s of the last century, and was made for Great Britain in Canada. It seems something like this ...
        1. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 10 June 2018 19: 41
          +1
          Quote: Tank Hard
          The same famous Browning "High Power" becomes the main military pistol in the UK only from the 50s of the last century.

          1. here only in Denmark it was adopted in 1935. By 1941, a dozen more countries were adopted.
          Quote: Tank Hard
          Quote: 4-th Paradise
          I wonder where the guns from the armies of Japan, Spain, France, Austria, England and where on the list disappeared
          And for the 30th year, in the countries you mentioned, nothing significant was created, or copies of US-German pistols were used

          2. It's not a matter of whose development, the main thing is that they were in service ...
          3. Astra did not produce copies; she redid pistols improving, unlike Tokarev, who, making a copy, worsened Colt 1911 in all but simplification of production.
  18. Kibb
    Kibb 16 May 2018 21: 29
    +1
    Quote: pishchak
    And with the "redesign" Margolin pistol in Drill

    Well, the MC is generally difficult to spoil, but it was not about armaments, Drill is the market for his mother. I did not see the drill in the eye, and Mrgosh seems to be not bad.
    1. beeper
      beeper 16 May 2018 23: 59
      +2
      The whole point, the most important “highlight” —Mikhail Margolin's find was precisely in the constant length of the aiming line, in the motionless base of the sight (pillar) in the form of a “gate” (in addition, a front sight regulated by “clicks”, a rigidly fixed barrel and a strictly cut trunk channel with 6 grooves, well, the “Parabellum” tilt, the arms of the first Margolins, was then “improved” -reduced, and the girth configuration of the handle was changed, like the design of the store, factory “rationalizers”, alas!), but in Drills and Margoshe, the whole rearranged to moving the mount and sighting line “went in”, the main “highlight” of the MC was hopelessly spoiled request ! So, it’s difficult to “spoil”, but the “improvers” of the difficulties of corruption are not afraid ?! winked
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 18 May 2018 08: 53
        0
        Yes, but the drill and the Margot are no longer sports - target pistols, and civilian weapons in which this highlight is not so important
  19. Catfish
    Catfish 17 May 2018 01: 22
    +3
    Quote: Doliva63
    It seems that old PM is still out of competition. "Made in the USSR" (c)

    PM, of course, is beyond competition. laughing When there is only one store for the whole city and only one brook is sold in it, then what kind of competition is there. And what pants were sewn in the USSR, older people know well. So they ate what they give, there was still no other. The same with PM. And the shvets and the reaper and the full p ... rip! From a submarine to space through all the land forces. Plus my native mentovka, plus ... no, I won’t say anything for the Office, they themselves don’t know everything about themselves. Purely civilian weapons, even in the police, are not suitable for every unit. Well, you go ...
    If I hadn’t tried other barrels, including those released “over the hill” long before Makar, I would probably be proud of this masterpiece of Russian weapons business too. True, 99% mucous with Walter, even with two.
    Everything is relative.
    Thanks to the brand and best wishes. I am also pleased with the style of your articles. hi
    1. morved
      morved 19 May 2018 00: 44
      0
      No, of course, you can also deliver potatoes to a lamborghini, but why? No, seriously, where was it in the militia of the USSR with that level of criminogenic situation? Or in the army (in which even the APS was sent to the warehouses in case of a large P, because they really related to the requirements of an army pistol). Well, where he was missing was the APS.
      The criminal situation in the union changed in the 80s and immediately opened a bunch of OCD.
      In the States and Germany, everything is different they have a pistol cult, like in Russia a tank cult, although the army over the decades how many R-38 or Colt1911 yuzali and did not steam.
      1. Grid
        Grid 19 May 2018 05: 43
        0
        although the army won how many decades the R-38 or Colt1911 yuzali and did not bathe.

        In fact, it is still units that are used according to the P-38 scheme and the Browning M1911 and XP
  20. Shelest2000
    Shelest2000 19 May 2018 14: 49
    +1
    As long as we do not have a weapons market for weapons, we will not have normal weapons, just like ammunition. And we will never have a market - Putin clearly said "It's too early for us." T.ch. Alas...
    1. Tank hard
      Tank hard 20 May 2018 13: 35
      0
      Why do you need a gun? At a distance of up to 10 meters, you can be plugged with a knife while you bring the gun into combat readiness. For hidden wear? (Are you a gangster?). For self-defense in the Russian Federation, such an interesting feature is sold as a boar - a saiga semiautomatic device, you can probably fight it off (especially 12 gauge) ... It is quite affordable for sane citizens both in price and with documents for this is not difficult. IMHO
      1. Grid
        Grid 20 May 2018 17: 46
        0
        At a distance of up to 10 meters, you can be plugged with a knife while you bring the gun into combat readiness.

        Yeah. Straight two times ...
        1. Tank hard
          Tank hard 20 May 2018 18: 20
          +1
          Quote: Grille
          Yeah. Straight two times ...

          It’s straightforward, but you don’t believe, One will be less ...
          1. Grid
            Grid 24 May 2018 10: 10
            0
            It’s easy, but you don’t believe

            Why should I believe?
            I, baby, checked ...
            Still alive.
        2. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 8 September 2018 22: 44
          0
          Well, not from 10 meters, but from 5 meters and not a couple of times with a knife in the stomach, but at least 12 times.

          When removing the gun, first break the distance.

          So, they are bored with a gun first - to run away and only then shoot.
      2. Alex.Kom
        Alex.Kom 19 June 2018 01: 54
        0
        Quote: Tank Hard
        Why do you need a gun?

        And you? Do not want to - do not take it. And why did you decide that others do not need it? .. Let the one who wants to take it, and who does not want to, will not be forced to force (except for the call, of course wink ) ...
  21. Tank hard
    Tank hard 20 May 2018 19: 46
    +1
    Grid,
    On their own people are not judged request
    1. Grid
      Grid 24 May 2018 10: 12
      0
      On their own people are not judged

      Why should I judge by myself?
      Although it would be interesting ...
      I judge you by your statements ..
      1. Tank hard
        Tank hard 24 May 2018 13: 11
        +1
        Quote: Grille
        I judge you by your statements ..

        Where is it for me, the couch warrior, to compete against you, a combat cat, a veteran of the WWI ... I’ll run away, hide from the theater of operations, like all civilians ... Fight yourself. The sleeve is a reward to you .., reusable. And enough of me, I’ll lie on the couch ... repeat
        1. Grid
          Grid 25 May 2018 12: 15
          0
          Escape, hide

          Did he hide?
          And then I'm going to look ...
          1. Tank hard
            Tank hard 25 May 2018 16: 44
            +1
            Quote: Grille
            And then I'm going to look ...

            Do not forget to cut the fly ... wink
  22. Xscorpion
    Xscorpion 23 May 2018 13: 56
    +2
    Quote: YELLOWSTONE
    do you propose that in addition to senior tank officers and pilots, the machine gunner of the PC, grenade throwers, a flamethrower and a sniper carry machine guns on themselves?
    perhaps only because of this "error" survived


    I’ll surprise you, but even the generals have automatic weapons. The AKS-74u tankers, the pilots either the AKS-74U or APS, grenade throwers, flame throwers, anti-aircraft guns, mortar guns
    iki, gunners, as well as all other specialists carry machine guns, and machine gunners with a gun only in the MTR, snipers also have a gun only in the MTR, in ordinary reconnaissance units and sniper divisions of motorized rifle brigades, in addition to the SVD sniper, they also have a BCC. Yes and any machine gunner it’s better to take an extra tape with machine gun cartridges than to take a pistol with me to the BZ. I have nothing against the pistols, I have worked a lot with PM and PB, I have never had any complaints about them, but one thing is for sure, no matter how good gun about It’s nothing for the worst machine gun. The army needs guns, but a very limited group of military men, in particular specialists for certain tasks. And as an ordinary officer, he will come in handy, just to put things in order in the unit in battle, that is, to shoot a soldier, violating discipline. Yes and even for this, a machine is better suited.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 24 May 2018 13: 30
      0
      it's hard to surprise me here lol Do PCM tape machine gunners also have an automatic machine behind their backs?
      American and Israeli officers (and even just soldiers) with guns probably only do what they shoot their subordinates
      grenades also can not be taken with you? or maybe one if suddenly the officer’s gun misfires?
      I would like to know what so many people mean by the word special, and why will they need it?
      1. Grid
        Grid 25 May 2018 12: 19
        0
        at tape machine gunners

        Well, I know, there are tapeworms, but that’s what the machine gunners would be ...
        Do not pretend to be a Nobel Prize in biology7
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE 25 May 2018 14: 25
          0
          vryatli, if only together when you will prove why Bren’s boutiques are upside down and Stan’s flat
          1. Grid
            Grid 26 May 2018 08: 38
            0
            Baby, what are you talking about?
            Accidentally with the substances did not go over?
            1. YELLOWSTONE
              YELLOWSTONE 26 May 2018 08: 45
              +1
              about your pearls about lifting cartridge weights in SVT and SVD stores; what else lol
              how do you think the “grasshopper” Bren and Stan could shoot from other positions? as the way and Kalashnikov laughing
  23. Grid
    Grid 24 May 2018 10: 14
    +1
    Quote: Xscorpion
    And he will come in handy to an ordinary officer, as the comments correctly noted, only to restore order in the unit in battle, that is, to shoot a fighter who violates discipline. Yes, and even for this, a machine gun is better suited.

    Terribly plus. For I agree one hundred percent ..
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 24 May 2018 13: 29
      +1
      Yes, they probably tried, but the fighter himself will not shoot from a machine gun?
  24. Xscorpion
    Xscorpion 25 May 2018 02: 50
    0
    Quote: YELLOWSTONE
    Yes, they probably tried, but the fighter himself will not shoot from a machine gun?


    Before my eyes in the database there were 2 cases when an officer used weapons against inadequate fighters in front of the eyes of his subordinates. The first time in Chechnya, it ended tragically for a drunken turnover, by the way, they were shot just from a machine gun. The second time in August 2008, near Gori, then it cost a couple of shots near the ear of one of the same moron, enough to bring to life, then PM was used. This is what I personally saw there were a lot of similar cases. But I never heard that the soldiers shot an officer during a battle.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 25 May 2018 18: 27
      +1
      it was impossible to shoot him to death?
  25. Xscorpion
    Xscorpion 25 May 2018 02: 57
    0
    Quote: YELLOWSTONE
    it's hard to surprise me here lol Do PCM tape machine gunners also have an automatic machine behind their backs?
    American and Israeli officers (and even just soldiers) with guns probably only do what they shoot their subordinates
    grenades also can not be taken with you? or maybe one if suddenly the officer’s gun misfires?
    I would like to know what so many people mean by the word special, and why will they need it?


    Tape machine gunners take extra tape with them. I don’t know what foreign officers do with guns, I assume that since the gun weighs less than a machine gun, it’s more convenient to run away with it. Grenades can be taken in any quantity you take, but usually machine gunners take one .And about the special forces you better not know, you will sleep more calmly.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE 25 May 2018 18: 20
      +1
      gunners do not take a gun? themselves or they don’t give it to them?
      1. Tank hard
        Tank hard 25 May 2018 19: 20
        +1
        I think that we are outdated on our sofas. Young "Ramba" live by their own rules.
        Quote: Xscorpion
        You better not know, you'll sleep better

        They care about our health, how would we even without them?
        Quote: Grille
        hoo hide
        Did he hide?
        And then I'm going to look ...

        Already threatening reprisals without embarrassment to anyone ... request
        Gifted people ...
        What to do? belay
        It remains only to meet with flowers. love
        hi
        1. Grid
          Grid 26 May 2018 08: 45
          0
          Already threatening reprisals without embarrassment to anyone ... request

          You flatter yourself, hamsters are of little interest to me.
          Gifted people ...

          Thank. I am even in some embarrassment, from recognizing my intellectual superiority.
          What to do?

          Try re-reading Chernyshevsky.

          But for God's sake, do not write more heresy about the fact that a person with a gun can be completely plugged with a knife from a distance of 10 meters without any problems ...
          1. Tank hard
            Tank hard 26 May 2018 09: 46
            0
            Quote: Grille
            But for God's sake, do not write more heresy about the fact that a person with a gun can now be completely plugged with a knife from a distance of 10 m

            If a person is sane, then he will carefully read the post CAREFULLY and draw a conclusion.
            You can even debate on this topic with a sane individual. Proofs on this topic are on the Internet, Israeli "experts" conducted "experiments" on a given topic. But after this one:
            Quote: Grille
            hamsters

            Quote: Grille
            Baby

            Quote: Grille
            Well, I know, there are tapeworms, but that’s what the machine gunners would be ...
            Do not pretend to be a Nobel Prize in biology7

            Quote: Grille
            Did he hide?
            And then I'm going to look

            Quote: Grille
            What, I’m telling you, military couch, and trying to explain ..

            I don’t even want to discuss any topics with you, because it is very difficult to convince an alternatively gifted individual in his thoughts and decisions .. And all this:
            Quote: Grille
            I judge you by your statements ..

            As I understand it, are you directly threatening me here (and, therefore, my family)
            Quote: Grille
            Did he hide?
            And then I'm going to look ...

            Which again confirms your unique talent ...
            Well, find me.
            It is not very difficult.
            I'm on the couch.
            There we continue the conversation about - "UP TO 10 METERS."
            yes
            1. Vladimir 5
              Vladimir 5 2 August 2018 20: 25
              -1
              The discussion of the article and the topic turned to discussion - who is cooler among some.
              On the topic, - the gun is a PERSONAL SELF-PROTECTION weapon. and in the conditions of a DB, especially in field conditions it is obviously unsuitable. Here in specific conditions, even needed: in rooms and other cramped places. Therefore, it must be taken when it can serve, like any other weapon. Today, the pistol should be powerful enough, and the PM will be honorably retired, because armor protection has become the norm ... As a last resort, the pistol should replace the F-1, more ammunition, “look and break through” ... A wave of new GS products came -18, etc., and the leading ones in the short-barreled chase ...
  26. wooja
    wooja 2 August 2018 18: 49
    0
    so what, anti-advertising of a Russian manufacturer, sue ... and judge by the most greedy liberal court ...,
  27. Yellow bubble
    Yellow bubble 5 March 2019 22: 26
    0
    At the time of the adoption of the Nagan - it was already outdated, Smith and Wesson still scolding the generals, because a new revolver was ready - powerful and quickly recharged. Nagan is a step back. Russian plants were ready to produce Smith and Wesson, but had to order equipment in Belgium, cartridge 44 - Russian, in the process of modernization turned into 44 - magnum - one of the most powerful in the world, although it is a masterpiece in design and engineering. Admittedly, self-defense weapons are civilian guns.